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Interpretation – the neg may not fiat action by every single

person on earth
1. Fiat abuse
Interpretation – if the negative reads an alternative framing
mechanism, they must clarify a standard or roll of the ballot
text in the nc which contextualizes how to weigh offense and
cannot just claim that the cards provide a framing
1. Strat
a. Dk
b. shift

1984) and Catholic values committed him to the idea of the immanence of reason and the hope of an escape from the labyrinth.¶ Baudrillard’s concept of the inexplicable nature of the mass depend a great deal on the unusual circumstances surrounding the May events. a style which is likely to make sociologists feel uncomfortable (Gane 199la:193). Although he was fully aware of the sensory deprivation which he associated with the impact of the mass media. if the crisis had been unanticipated by conventional political analysis. Baudrillard is thus able to make allusions to the idea of physical substance. Baudrillard was already moving away from an orthodox Marxist view of production. p. and therefore could not be manipulated. when it became increasingly obvious that the critical social movements of modern society would not be dominated by Marxist theory or directed by a vanguard of the working class. There is here also a continuity with the style of Dada and the Situationists. Australia. oppositional movement would have to challenge the system from the point of view of meaninglessness . he was influenced by Marshall McLuhan’s analysis (Gane 1991b:48) of the impact of new media on the transformation of modern culture. Subversion would have to rob the social system of significance. By 1973 with the publication of The Mirror of Production (Baudrillard 1975). the mass thus neutralizes the electrical charge of society. far from being an Instead of external critique of capitalism. which could not be explained.¶ In taking this attitude towards modern social movements. who as we have noted was deeply influenced by negative effects were not fatal. least of all in the British context. Baudrillard followed the Situationist claim that whatever can be represented can be controlled (Plant 1992:137). The idea of ‘mass society’ might have been relevant in describing the new markets which were created in the post-war period with the advent of innovative technologies. allegory and similar rhetorical devices are decorative but they are not necessarily powerful . Baudrillard’s argument also rests on the various meanings of the word ‘mass’. Indeed. because his ‘technological humanism’ (Kroker et al. Baudrillard’s analysis of the masses is a product of the Situationist responses to the May events of 1968. “Baudrillard for Sociologists. matter. However. uniform sentiments or an integrated outlook. the trend of sociological analysis in the last two decades has been to assert that audiences have been broken down into more selectively constructed niches for more individualized products. then the sudden collapse of the students’ and workers’ movements of 1968 found no easy explanation in the framework of mainstream social sciences. Arguments which depend on allusion. Baudrillard. view of the mass media creating a hyperreality in which the particular real has been absorbed by the hyperreal. which is a type of sociological poetics. characterized by a common culture. he none the less remained committed to the hope that these Baudrillard. In taking this stand. parody and irony is typical of Baudrillard’s mode of analysis. Critical theorists like Adorno and Marcuse associated the massification of society with authoritarianism and a Baudrillard’s version of mass society is based on a potential for fascism. but McLuhan did not adopt a pessimistic view of the age of anxiety. Dean of Social Sciences at Deakin University. arguing that Marxism. meaning has imploded . 80-83 While. a subversive. has embraced a very nihilistic position with respect to our processed environment . sought to replace the idea of a mode of production with a mode of disappearance. the pure event of authenticity. The translator’s note to In the Shadow of the Silent Majority points out that faire masse can mean to form a majority and to form an earth. This use of allusion. The poetic and striking character of Baudrillard’s style has no counterpart in professional social science . Baudrillard was not influenced by Bell’s vision of the role of technology and the media in shaping postindustrialism. a global technological system could become the basis of a universalistic culture. but they are not ultimately convincing . which had the immediate effect of lowering prices and making commodities available to a mass mass audience. The crisis of May 1968 had not been predicted by Marxism or by mainstream sociology. The notion of ‘mass society’ already has a clearly worked out sociological critique. Turner. engaging in the production of meaning . as far as one can tell. Of course. However.¶ Baudrillard’s pessimistic view of the fissure in the historical development of the modern is based on his view of the masses. It is controversial to argue that industrialization necessarily produces a mass society. The mass events of 1968 offered a promise of the nonrepresentational moment. McLuhan was particularly sensitive to the idea that we live in a processed social world where human beings live in a complete technostructure. Baudrillard argues by allusion that the mass absorbs the electrical charges of social and political movements.¶ Baudrillard’s ‘sociological fictions’ (1990a:15) are striking and challenging. in dismissing Marxist theory as a means of representing events. was merely a reflection or mirror of the principal economistic values of capitalism. especially in The Gutenberg Galaxy (McLuhan 1967). The idea of a mass society was often associated with the notion that the decline of individualism would produce a directionless mass as the modern equivalent of the eighteenthcentury mob.” in Forget Baudrillard?. This technological environment is carried with us as extensions of our own bodies. McLuhan’s idea that the content of messages was relatively unimportant in relation to their form . the majority and the electrical meaning of earth. but they did validate the claims of Situationists like Guy Debord in the journal Internationale Situationiste. 1ar baudrillard Baudrillard is wrong---debate SOLVES collapse and oversaturation of meaning Turner 4 – Bryan S. 2004 edition.

http://www. unable to comprehend our real position. Nobody stays sceptical while crossing the street. for instance. he tactlessly suggested that the iconic place of Nazi atrocities as a symbol of evil makes it “logical” to ask whether they even existed. a hallucinatory projection of its fears and fantasies. a Faustian pact between developed capitalism and virtual Baudrillard’s reality. So hyperbole had a serious point. largely inspired by the Situationists. “Au revoir Baudrillard. tried to distance himself from the trite opposition of one moment seeing through the glass darkly and then coming face to face with reality. we live in a virtual reality. And the image does not come to us innocently. Most consumers of these images get no reality check. and it was relayed to the public by television.on itself . has ruled out opposition to the system . He often provoked outrage by it. Nor while dodging bombs and shells. it is our investment that matters. bought in to provide sustenance. sentenced to a woeful life of at least at the level of public debate and formal politics. largely by pilots looking at computer screens. but when. Although Baudrillard’s analysis of hyperreality is postcritical (Chen 1987). the image is all we have to go on.¶ have touched on an old philosophical panic. the inspiration for the Matrix films. his point was not to ally himself with the David Irvings of this world. sociological (bourgeois) individual has been sucked into the negative electrical mass of the media age. have been something more than a war: an episode in America’s cultural narcissism. not whether Baudrillard’s ideas about simulated reality seem to it is invested in a fiction. What happened in 1990 may. In fact. even if they . if we call a massacre a victory. research on mass audiences shows that there is no ground for believing that media messages are received. or choosing dinner. We are participants in a public world. consumed or used in any standardized manner . generalised scepticism yet he enjoyed playing with its ingredients. it was won. They too are commodities. the answer is irrelevant. The 1990 Gulf war was modelled by planners using simulations. 4- 29-07. have argued that everyday life is resistant to massification and that the concrete reality of everyday life-situations is the principal arena within which opposition to massification can be expected. sociologists. professor of philosophy at Cambridge University. It’s not all simulacra --. myth. which is the extreme example of massification. it is not all simulacra . Baudrillard. fiction and illusion.should take into account the people whose lives are actually affected by these images Simon Blackburn 7. he does adopt in practice a critical position towards American civilization.reality still exists outside the text --. As with God. Rather like critical theorists. indeed.” Prospect . by arguing that criticism belongs to the period of modernism and not to the age of hyperreality. a promotional video. transformed and consumed in diverse forms and according to various practices (de Certeau 1984).prospectmagazine. The cure for the sceptical nightmare is action. Everyday life was regarded by both Guy Debord and Henri Lefebvre (1991) as the foundation of Baudrillard . since implies that there is nothing especially wrong about America or late capitalism or consumer society—and would any self-respecting culture critic want to draw that conclusion?¶ In any{hors texte = outside the text} Baudrillard was not concerned with the artist’s touch but with what happens when television and other media purport to take us to the field of action. not hermits trapped in our own private cinemas. and the majority of social scientists working on culture have attempted to argue that cultural objects in the age of the mass media are appropriated. Perhaps our senses are no better than our televisions. or a simulacrum indistinguishable from Disneyland. but to suggest that for many political and cultural purposes. I do not think this was wise. Perhaps. at the limit. Baudrillard believes that the However. Perhaps nature has varnished and spun the pictures we receive. authenticity.

That means they not but only have to promote particular kinds of pedagogies in their classrooms but they also have to join social movements that give them the force of a collective voice that can bear down on these problems and create change . if not more importantly. SK: What would this look like in practice? One encouraging experiment I had the privilege of observing up close is taking place at the Emiliano Zapata Street Academy in Oakland. This is a challenge that the Left has never taken seriously because it really doesn’t understand that at the center of politics is the question of pedagogy . and you just mentioned one of them.S. The greatest battle that we’re facing in the U. that the future doesn’t simply have to mimic the present. and so on. It’s a struggle for consciousness. in an “alternative high school” within the Oakland Unified School District. On the Left. or to what college professors say in their classes. During the sixties. the term for this was the long march through institutions and the reference had little to do with reform but with massive restructuring of the instruments of democracy. http://www. if not the future itself – a struggle to convince people that society is more than what it is. I understand those structural conditions it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t resist either. And we also need to impose a certain kind of responsibility upon adults in the schools – whether they be social workers. update it for the twenty-first century. Henry Giroux. Pedagogy is fundamental not only to the struggle over culture but also. “Henry Giroux on the Militarization of Public Pedagogy”. On the It’s a model second level is what Rudi Dutschke called what I referred to earlier as the “long march through the institutions. . there is a lot that is hors texte—although this is more true for the artisan driving nails or baking bread than for the politician (or academic) whose work is confined to the production of signs and messages. If people don’t have an understanding of the nature of the problems they face they’re going to succumb to the right-wing educational populist machine. we had this in the ‘20s and ‘30s: socialists had Sunday schools. of struggle. The issue here is to seize upon the contradictions at work in these institutions and to develop them in ways that make a difference. acting. understood. There.are sent by people watching computer screens. university professors. they had camps. limited to what happens in high schools. We need to reclaim that legacy. Power and the forms it takes are always contradictory in different ways and there is always some room for resistance. the school-to-prison pipeline. That’s a mistake . and join the fight over the creation of new modes of thinking. There has to be some way to build institutions that provide a different model of education. today is around the question of consciousness .org/2013/09/27/teaching-and-learning- with-henry-giroux/] How do you teach social change or resistance to SK: Here’s a paradox for you: authority within public schools – institutions that many have criticized for being authoritarian and resistant to change ? HG: You can’t do it if you believe these institutions are so authoritarian that there’s simply no room for resistance. Refuse their fatalism—we can reclaim the university Giroux 13 [09/27/13. it is not something that can be reduced to a method . HG: I think two things have to go on here. military recruiters in their schools. We’ve got to talk about alternative institutions. and fought. a struggle over the gist of agency. Pedagogy is not marginal . the struggle over meaning and identity. or high school teachers. What needs to be understood is the intensity of dominant power in different contexts and how it can be named. In the hurly-burly of survival. student interns working with a group called BAY-Peace lead youth in interactive workshops on topics relevant to their lives: street violence.counterpunch. and engaging ourselves and our relations to others. Power is never so overwhelming that there’s no room for resistance . they found alternative ways to educate a generation of young people to give them a different understanding of history.” that makes a tactical claim to having one foot in and one foot out. Clearly it’s not enough to say they operate under terrible burdens that make them voiceless.

upon the next generations. Critique is essential to what we do but it can never become so overwhelming that all we become are critics and nothing else . without creating as Jacques Rancière argues “new objects. That’s a retreat from politics. diphtheria. via a social interpretation of physical disease. “The ‘Ecstasy’ of Jean Baudrillard. polio. forms. Instead.htm) Dissociate yourself from conventional life.” The New Criterion. capitalism.) And I think that we need to find ways to support young people because the most damage that’s going to be done is going to be heaped what we’re really fighting for is not just democracy. smallpox. understand and fight for a society that is very different from the one in which we now live. Not only that. Perfcon – you engaged with and turned the aff by claiming Delgado goes neg Perfcon – you spoke – that isn’t silence and kills the alt – o/w cause ruse of solvency Baudrillard’s symbolic construction of reality and the “code” causes ignorance to actual genocide and mass atrocities – this is a voting issue Vine ’89 (Richard Vine. we need a language of critique and we need a language of possibility to be able to go forward with this.” to caution us against the pathological dangers of bourgeois hygiene. Baudrillard manages to surpass the imaginative fecundity of even the magisterial Foucault. First he weighs in with the now familiar claim that the definition of madness is but a ploy. And so critique is not enough. You have to fight within these institutions. and the vulgar bourgeoisie—preferably by discovering in the unlikeliest places half-hidden machinations of repressive control. SK: Henry. etc. May 1989 http://www. Conveniently. So we’re fighting for the future . we’ve covered a lot of territory. which means a 1% risk we aren’t in a simulation is sufficient to vote aff to prevent suffering – treat this kritik like skep. resembles a bizarre crossbreeding of Christian Science with those lunatic Communist-conspiracy tirades launched in the 1950s against the fluoridation of city water supplies:¶ . yellow fever. no mention is made of what science and attendant public health measures have accomplished against cholera. leprosy. influenza. that “every ‘psychological dysfunction’ vis-à-vis ‘normality’ (which is only the law of the capitalist milieu) is open to a He then proceeds. Is there anything we haven’t addressed that you would like to bring up before closing? HG: We need both a language of critique and a language of hope . and spaces that thwart official expectations. The thesis of the k is that everything necessarily fails cause it’s already trapped in the code and the alt just embraces that.You can’t turn these established institutions over to the Right . such as it is. political 7(9). Baudrillard’s argument.” What we need to do is theorize. you have to create new public spheres. it means working collectively with others to build social movements that address a broader language of our society – questions of inequality and power (basically the two most important issues we can talk about now. syphilis. Eager to be ever more maudit than thou. typhoid. That means taking seriously the question of pedagogy as central to any notion of viable progressive politics. malaria. It is counterproductive for the left to engage in declarations of powerlessness. You can’t simply dismiss them by saying they’re nothing more than hegemonic institutions that oppress people.

for to do so would invite a great many unsettling questions.” brute censorship. selecting at last.” For him. avant-garde condescension toward “the masses. then. Monsieur Baudrillard in a restaurant.” . (Add ten points if you can do so through a “reflexive” argument that turns key doctrinal precepts back upon themselves. positivism. only to replace them with technical artifacts. Divested of his phantasies. Exactly how. Divested of his defenses. and departs. If these systems are breaking down it is because an irreversible tendency called progress pushes the human body and spirit into relinquishing its systems of defense and self-determination. He peruses the menu fastidiously. he would have realized that commodification explains not simply one element of the capitalist system but the system in toto. in their alleged objectivity. says a gracious farewell to the maître d’hotel. the nettlesome Gulag. he becomes eminently vulnerable to psychology. with the waiter’s recommendation. as is evident when Baudrillard asks. say. most embarrassing of all. and safety: “the ‘vital anthropological minimum’ doesn’t exist. medical progress is a plot—like other bourgeois inventions. shelter. and without so much as having seen any food. Baudrillard languidly calls for his check. hence no constant and irreducible requirement for food. according to along with its very presuppositions. is my grandmother’s need to sleep caused by the manufacture of beds? Does her sleepiness increase with a rising rate of box spring production? Anyone can see that this kind of thinking might lead directly to science. that hereditary curse of the Enlightenment. conventionalizing language: “the object of a (given) science is only the effect of its discourse. having “consumed” the signs of a satisfying repast and fulfilled all the essential requirements of symbolic exchange .The artificial purification of all milieus. a noble but little-known Armagnac. Imagine. Baudrillard cannot afford to concede the validity of empirical standards of proof. and a sliver of apricot tart—complemented by a delicate Chablis and. Freed of his germs. has been the search for an alchemic formula that would somehow rid critical theory of such real-life Marxist impurities as chronic low productivity.) A major preoccupation of radical thinkers. Then. [3] Purport to extend and correct the prevailing vanguard position. There is no biological essence of man. which Baudrillard considers merely “a system of defense and imposed ignorance. man becomes eminently vulnerable to science. Spin elaborate theories out of a few anecdotes. espresso. sets up criteria which. to finish. he becomes eminently vulnerable to medicine. for example.” It is an illusion conjured up after the fact to justify and perpetuate the productivist enterprise: “there are only needs because the system needs them. the recent famine in Ethiopia is best contemplated in purely humorous terms. Baudrillard’s solution is the magic of “transparency. atmospheres.¶ In short. Had Marx only had the benefit of modern semiotics. followed by a simple green salad. without a quiver. medallions of veal accompanied by lightly buttered haricots verts.” which renders all such difficulties instantly unreal. Disdain quantitative measures and hard evidence. “is loss of status—or social non-existence—less upsetting than hunger?”¶ The monstrosity of such a conception in light of. and environments will supplant the failing internal immune systems. create a false “reality” by excluding whatever does not conform to a limiting. it’s just another way of stifling naturalism and exerting control. Baudrillard. rhetorically. from the founding of the Frankfurt School onward. fruit and mixed cheeses.” Everything essential to humankind transpires symbolically. and.¶ It would not be too far-fetched to say that the extermination of mankind begins with the extermination of germs.

I would propose grasping the dialectic of form and content in media communication. should attempt to recontextualize media images and simulacra rather than merely focusing on the surface of media form . form and content. polity.uta. seeing how media forms constitute content and how content is always formed or structured. Baudrillard -. and thus content. and new discourses. Baudrillard's contribution lies in his calling attention to these novelties and doubts remain as to whether the media transformations and providing new concepts and theories to understand them. and society in ways that we are only now becoming aware of. Furthermore. Baudrillard subordinates .edu/huma/illuminations/kell26. Distinctions between context and use. . or when action-adventure series formats of violent conflict as the essence of reality project a conservative view of human life as a battleground where only the fittest survive and prosper. there is no real theory or practice of cultural interpretation Consequently. Kneller Philosophy of Education Chair in the Graduate School of Education at UCLA. Living within a great transformation. while forms themselves can be ideological. Illuminations. computerization. Against abstracting media form and effects from context. http://www. I would argue that it is preferable to operate with a dialectical perspective which posits multiple roles and functions to television and other media. media production. perhaps as significant as the transformation from feudalism to industrial capitalism. in Baudrillard's one-dimensional theory where global theses and glib pronouncements replace careful analysis and critique . the media are playing an ever greater role in our personal and social lives. however. Yet are having quite the impact that Baudrillard ascribes to them and whether his theory provides adequate concepts to analyze the complex interactions between media. in Baudrillard's theory. privileges the form of media technology over what might be called the media apparatus. new technologies. how do they propose to free us from that? It is not just information that matters—the context and content of information is VITAL to our understanding and strategies of resistance. meaning. and society today. This critique will suggest that indeed Baudrillard is a "new McLuhan" who has repackaged McLuhan into new postmodern cultural capital. George F. media and reality . and the use of media to its purely formal structure and effects. and against his claims that media content are irrelevant and unimportant. thus and society as large) from his theory media environment (i. I would argue that the use and effects of media should be carefully examined and evaluated in terms of specific contexts. and political life and media analysis provide abstract simulacra of actual events which themselves become more real than "the real" which they supposedly represent. which denies the media (increasingly anti-) also emanates an anti-hermeneutical bias that . 2003. we are engaged in a process of dramatic mutation. which we are barely beginning to understand. television would have multiple functions (and potential decodings) where sometimes the ideological effects may be predominant while at other times time functions a medium like television functions as mere noise or through the merely formal effects which Baudrillard puts at the center of his analysis. Yet even if this is so.much more so than McLuhan who at least gives some media history and analysis of the media tends to abstract media form and effects from the media environment -- environment and erases political economy. Baudrillard might retort that it is the media themselves which abstract from the concreteness of everyday. as when the situation comedy form of conflict/resolution projects an ideological vision which shows all problems easily capable of being resolved within the existing society. and have dramatically transformed our economy.[12] For a dialectical theory of the media. First. Baudrillard: A New McLuhan?.htm Undoubtedly. culture.If they are right that our actions and intellects are poisoned by an oversaturation with information. social. I shall suggest that Baudrillard's media theory is vitiated by three subordinations which limitations in undermine its theoretical and political usefulness and which raise questions as well about the status of postmodern social theory. In this section. instead of operating with a model of (formal) media effects. Baudrillard's formalism vitates the project of ideology Another problem is that critique .e. Their seductive play undermines the ideological commitments of information saturation because it explicitly refuses to engage with them---they make the problem worse Douglas Kellner 3. all dissolve. in what might be called a formalist subordination. as we enter the brave new world of media saturation. like McLuhan. I shall suggest that the Baudrillard's theory can be related to his uncritical assumption of certain positions within McLuhan's media theory and that therefore earlier critiques of McLuhan can accurately and usefully be applied to Baudrillard.

often makes essentializing distinctions between media like television or film. for both Baudrillard and McLuhan "the media is the message"). 90 [Denis. advertising. and many-sided as television (or film or any mass medium) to its formal properties and effects. say.” Philosophy and Literature. The selections in this book begin in 1968. is the technology of. for the trite part about video simulations replacing reality and media/ information overload. Baudrillard thus abstracts media from social systems and essentializes media technology as dominant social forces. passivity. ascribing a particular essence to one.according to Baudrillard -. when Baudrillard was still some kind of a Marxist.” This isn’t an uncertainty we’ve experienced in So much the past. It is also preferable to see the dialectic between media and society in specific historical conjunctures. is useless or worse because media in their very essence for him militate against emancipatory politics or any project of social transformation. the media constitute a simulated. Yet it seems highly problematical to reduce apparatuses as complex. trends. and so forth by plunging themselves into a state of stupor. Baudrillard. semiurgy. unlike McLuhan. primarily however. to see the media as syntheses of technology and capital. he gives very few examples of the phenomena he purports to describe. by contrast today simply hyperreal. imprisoned in a world of media simulations. reality.e. It is therefore preferable. extermination of meaning and the social) rather than any particular content or message (i. and obscene world(view (in his technical sense) ). or alternative uses or forms of existing media. almost To this list of charges I would add only that. For -. to see how social content. pg. Like McLuhan. one could argue that capital continues to be a primary determinant of media form and content in neo-capitalist societies just as state socialism helps determine the form.[13] This brings us to a second subordination in Baudrillard's theory in which a more dialectical position is subordinated to media essentialism and technological determinism. television. simulative projection in the media. television that determines its effects (one-way transmission.a point to which I shall soon return. implosion. Baudrillard’s theories have no statistical basis and are painfully vague Dutton. Yet against Baudrillard. and continue through “The Masses: The Implosion of the Social in the Media” This last piece proposes the familiar notion that we are (1985). but if you want to know which way the wind is blowing in “theory. nature. The response of “the masses” (he still fancies bits of Marxist parlance) to the media is silence — people get even with public opinion polls. individuals and groups. For Baudrillard. contradictory. and the social systems within which they function.” I’d advise anyone seeking to understand the broad implications of computer and video technologies for information and entertainment to search elsewhere. “Jean Baudrillard. We are not allowed long to forget that Baudrillard is a sociology professor. Such cynical views. and that we cannot come to know the real not because we are ignorant but because we are overinformed: “we will never in the future be able to separate reality from its statistical. like McLuhan. . or its construction or use within specific social systems. or to a technological essence. video phantasms. Poster believes that “Baudrillard’s work is invaluable in beginning to comprehend the impact of new communication forms on society. but a brand new kind of uncertainty brought about by an excess of information. benefit conservative interests who presently control the media in their own interests -. vol. separated from their uses by specific economic and political interests. Baudrillard doesn’t want to call this sort of thing good or bad. and a dialectic of media and society is shortcircuited in a new version The political implications of this analysis are that of technological determinism. 4. philosopher hater extraordinaire. media technology and semiurgy are the demiurges of media practices and effects. everything Baudrillard says is either trite or somehow — vaguely or baldly — false. and alienation serve as “strategies” to counter and . as technologies which serve specific interests and which have specific political and economic effects (rather than merely technological ones). //MW] when it isn’t unintelligible. The false part comes when Baudrillard talks about the public reaction to this. There are no examples whatsoever of how public silence.importance of content and is against interpretation . and effects of technologies in certain state socialist societies. for theories of media in the capitalist societies. constituting alternative media. and an opposed essence to the other. and imperatives help constitute the media which in turn influence social developments and help constitute social For Baudrillard.” this is the place.

Fiat links the alt to the k – it’s a simulation – I don’t link cause I didn’t fiat . And how could he give an example of this? To be sure. Double bind: either a) the alt can’t overcome the one instance of the aff which means it’s weak and fails anyway. or b) the alt shields the link and I coopt nearly all solvency to the K. there is an abundance of stupified people out there sitting in front of television screens. in which case the net benefit is the aff.undermine the oppression of the media. but to portray their stupefaction as a form of calculated revenge on the media is frivolous without even being interesting. Perm – do the aff and the alternative in all other instances.