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nbk2000 November 30th, 2001, 09:19 PM
Many times people seek to substitute a gadget for training, in hopes of improvement.

This is not one of those cases.

This is strictly intended to aid a person in finding their gun in the dark under stress or in case they drop it.

In a dream of mine, I machined a small recessed slot in the polymer grip of a Glock.

In this was placed a TRASER self-luminous beta light. This is a glass capsule filled with tritium gas that emits beta radiation
that excites the phospor coating that lines the inside of the tube.

The slot is sealed with clear plexiglass resin to keep out dirt and provide a smooth surface.

In dimmed lighting you can see how brightly the TRASER might glow.

<CENTER> http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip_Animated.gif </CENTER>

This could be a liability, except for the fact that it's covered by the palm when held.

Phosphorescent plastic or an LED could be substituted with equal success.

An ideal place for placing the light would be in the backstrap of the grip. This would allow the light to be seen regardless of
which side the gun lays on.

This can be used with probably any gun.

Anyone else have such dreams? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

mrloud December 1st, 2001, 01:40 AM
How much Beta radiation is the palm of your hand absorbing while holding this thing? It'd be a good idea to conduct a few
experiments with a dosimeter and a Geiger counter.

nbk2000 December 1st, 2001, 02:00 AM
Beta radiation doesn't penetrate glass, thus there is NO radiation hazard.

Really, do you think they'd sell something that's so radiactive it'd glow in the dark?

:P

And I'm still waiting for the question.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

HMTD Factory December 1st, 2001, 05:44 AM
It'll work, but it'll cost a small fortune for the special-size tritium gas tube cuz ordinary Trijicon sights(3 small tritium globules)
cost 50$ more than plain gunsights.

If there's a paint material that works like tritium globules (self-illuminates for 12 years) it'll be neat, plus it won't break.

I'll try to indicate the direction of muzzle
or outline of the grip so I won't shoot into myself (If I was to pick up the gun in the dark thinking the gun is pointing to the
right...I might put my thumb right into the
trigger guard and disengage the safety, then
it's trigger hurt.)

That's not a real glock you nicked, right?

mrloud December 1st, 2001, 06:17 AM
The radiation itself doesn't cause it to glow in the dark. It makes the phosphor glow in the dark.

And: yes *they* sell wristwatches and glow in the dark stickers that send a Geiger counter crazy.

In the old days, human beings used to paint the glow in the dark marks on watches. Now they are mostly all dead.

[This message has been edited by mrloud (edited 12-01-2001).]
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nbk2000 December 1st, 2001, 07:01 AM
It's not MY Glock. ;)

Anyways, it's part of a new idea I'm testing out for getting free guns. You can get just about any you want. Glock, AR-15, Colt
.45, whatever.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip.html

Of course, this requires that your site looks professional with an actual .com URL. It's all about perceptions and image.

I just want to see if I can get any orders. If I get none, then the idea was shit.

BUT, if I get dozens or hundreds......:p Straight to the PDF it goes. I'd e-mail all the "customers" with some lame excuse like
running out of the TRASER tubes due to a freeze in the nuclear weapons dismantling program.

mrloud:
The radiation itself doesn't cause it to glow in the dark. It makes the phosphor glow in the dark.

Isn't that what I said?

This is a glass capsule filled with tritium gas that emits beta radiation that excites the phospor coating that lines the inside of
the tube.

And you're referring to radium paint. That hasn't been used since the second world war. But it would be neat to have that. It
never wears out.

Now maybe *THEY* sell plutonium powered watches. ;)

HMTD, look carefully at the pictures and you tell me if it's a real Glock. How many air-soft guns have a Serial # plate under the
barrel or Glock logo on the bottom of the magazine?

The <a href="http://www.interiors-etc.com/technical.htm#what">TRASER</a> is on the left side for left handed shooters. Right
handed shooters get it in the right hand side.

And I'm STILL waiting for the question.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-01-2001).]

Anthony December 1st, 2001, 10:14 AM
The airsoft glock I have has part of the lead weight showing just like the serial No. plate above.

Is *the* question: Did you just draw that green line on in photoshop?:)

Would your "customers" be posting their guns to an untraceable PO box?

AR-15 Man December 1st, 2001, 11:15 AM
Only problem I could see if that you did take your hand off the gun and your enemies had NVG you would be SCREWED!!!
Apparently (one reason I don't have night sights on all my combat weapon) is that night sights show up big time on NV. And
why not just use a lanyard on your gun. It makes retension a lot easier. But do see some merit with this. But like HMTD factory
said it is easily copied.

PYRO500 December 1st, 2001, 03:23 PM
After looking at those photos carefully I can say they look kinda suspicious, if I did not know what I know about photo editing
I would probably think they could be real, but I know that that glow effect looks really suspicious and the green line next to
the black line (looks like an indentation) apears a bit off, you are looking at the gunbut the indentation outline appears at the
bottom, not the top.

------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]

EventHorizon December 1st, 2001, 07:19 PM
I HAVE one of those watches. Wondered why my wrist always itches when I wear it. ;P Its a Luminox and the packageing 'says'
no radiation leaves the case. I must have misplaced my geiger counter...NBK, I'll send you my watch to test, and a nice brand
new H&K for some grip modification, when you think I'll get it back.

------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

nbk2000 December 1st, 2001, 08:02 PM
Anthony asked the right question.
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The TRASER IS a photoshop creation.

But the gun is real. I took the picture off a gun auction site.

I think I did go overboard with the glowing "halo" effect. But I've seen it done on other websites too so I don't think it likely
that Billy Bob and Bubba Smith is going to analyze the photographs too closely.

Besides, what do you want for 20 minutes work, a Picasso? :)

And the "customers" would be sending their pieces via regular mail to a mailbox on a post in front of a vacant building.

But now that I've got actual pictures of TRASER capsules from the website, the next version will be dead on photorealistic.

You'll also notice that NOWHERE did I claim it to be real. I said "dream" and "might glow". I've never used the term "dream"
to describe anything I've done in fact.

And I actually DID dream about this, so I whipped up the picture for it.

I would think an easy way to gain much credibility for this would be to send an air-soft gun with the modification to a gun
magazine for them to do a review on it. If they mention it in an article, you've got instant credibility and should have the
pieces flooding in.

And the neat thing is that this could be a legit business, making money. And also.....heh heh....have a constant supply of
fresh guns that, after "use", would be getting sent back to their owners, thus "disposing" of the evidence.

I did send the TRASER people a slightly different picture of the above "glow grip" with the request for a price quote. Be
interesting to see how much it will cost.

Who knows, might actually have a legit business going soon.

I was also thinking about imbeding the TRASER in a clear plastic or silicon rubber "bump" that would be adhesively attached to
a guns grip. This would eliminate the need to have the guns sent in. :(

Not that I would deny myself the opprotunity to play with other peoples guns. :)

EventHorizion, send me your piece and I'll

BTW, it is true about the tritium sights being beacons to NVG. But did you know that they make IR only TRASERS? Thus, if you
had NVG yourself and (most people don't) they didn't, you could still use the idea. Or use them as "bugs" to follow a person
through the dark, or mark safe lanes, or whatever.

I also prefer lanyards, but sometimes the cord gets in the way.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

AR-15 Man December 1st, 2001, 08:59 PM
I do like your idea and will probably be trying it. I feel some mission critcal gear should be marked in this fashion (ex. GPS,
lensatic compass, first aid kit, radios stuff that goes in my pouchs). For home defense and other non-military uses this thing
would do fine. You are right about lanyards. They sometimes get caught on crap. But then again I don't use my handgun
expect in several different cases like really close quarter, my rifle jams, or I need a New York reload.

nbk2000 December 1st, 2001, 11:32 PM
That means you'd be wanting to use these:

http://www.interiors-etc.com/images/products/982870357.jpg

They're on the TRASER website linked above.

They're as cheap as $3 each in quantity. Only thing is they won't ship them to the US or Canada because of product liability
laws.

Which means I'll be having to have one of the UK mods order some for me. :)

Perhaps we could pool our orders?

I've also added a "products" page to the Glow-Grip site. ;)

Access through the above link.

Did I forget to mention that not ONLY would you be getting free guns, but also getting paid for them as well? :)

Would $110 dollars be too much for installing the "product"? I figure since the trijicon sights add another $50 to the cost of a
gun sight and are tiny compared to the Glow-Grip, that the customer would be getting quite the bargain. :P

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

HMTD Factory December 2nd, 2001, 05:12 AM
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Well, I still think it should indicate the
muzzle direction(many ways) somehow.

Because if it is on one side, when it falls
to the ground it may not show the side that
is glowing.

nbk2000 December 2nd, 2001, 05:34 AM
Since it doesn't actually exist, it doesn't matter which way "it" points or what side it's on.

But you'll also notice how I already mentioned installing it in the backstrap of the gun so it would show regardless of side. The
backstrap is that part of the gun that fits between your thumb and palm.

And if a person can't tell the direction their gun is pointing by the way it fits in their hand, they have no business holding it in
the first place.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

HMTD Factory December 2nd, 2001, 06:36 AM
Well too bad, thought my medium sized brain can shit on your idea. Not that I said "Nah,
it's an already patented idea" or "Nah, a friend that I met in my shooting club has a better product and it's a seller" or
something like that.

"Is $110 for installation adequate?"
If Regis Philbin ask you this question, it's
one less friend to call.

nbk2000 December 2nd, 2001, 05:09 PM
And what does THAT mean?

~_^
~

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

CragHack December 2nd, 2001, 06:01 PM
This sounds like a good idea to begin with but i have some reservations. Picture this, you have the gun placed in its holster
under your coat. you start to run, or the wind blows a little your coat opens up a bit. the light is now easily noticable
ESPECIALLY at night. Now as a scam to obtain handguns, very good. as a practical idea. very bad.

Also, putting it in a hip holster would now be out of the question. At night you could be spotted from very far away.

If you were to modify your holster to hide the light, the mod would more than likely get in the way when you tried to draw your
weapon. and if you stuck something to the gun to hide the light, thinking you will take it off when you draw the gun. Well now
you are wasting precious time.

------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited 12-02-2001).]

HMTD Factory December 2nd, 2001, 07:42 PM
Oh, I said that cuz I don't think you are
being polite, NBK. But if you didn't mean it
then fine.

$110US is way too much to ask. For $110US
one can get a Timney trigger, installation
and tuning, a weaver scope base and scope
rings.

Can't find the gun in the dark is a problem.
So far the only solution out there is
illuminated handgun storage box, and flash-
lights mounted on the gun. The box doesn't
light up the gun after the gun left it;
flashlights need to be turned on first, plus
the size and battery. So a self-illuminated
gun do provide a slight edge for home defence
. The light doesn't nescessarily be on the
grip or be large tho, it can be small enough for you to tell and blocked by hands when you
hold it.

nbk2000 December 2nd, 2001, 08:25 PM
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If this actually existed, then the customer would be the one to decide if it was suitable for his application.

I'm assuming that a cop wouldn't use it, but that a home-owner, who keeps his on his night stand or such, would.

Also, they do make IR only TRASERS. These could be installed in a cops gun to allow recovery if dropped at night since very
few "bad guys" use NVG.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glock_Glow%20Handle_Side.jpg

This shows the backstrap placement, as well as the side placement. Either one is covered by the hand.

Holstered guns would depend on the orientation. Underarm would expose the backstrap to the front, but not the side. Hip
holster exposes side, but not backstrap.

And there's no reason why it couldn't be built to have some sort of shutter that opens when the gun isn't in a holster. More
involved, but a clever person :) could come up with something.

And $110 is probably too cheap! Like I said, tiny TRASERS in gunsights adds $50.

Now add in a large TRASER, machining, labor, plus free return shipping.

If I charged $20 bucks, it'd sound too good to be true, now wouldn't it? Or it'd sound like a piece o' shit job, not "quality"
workmanship.

Cost = exclusive = desirable! :p

And the TRASER is larger than I'd actually use for dramatic effect.

I think, when I next get into town, that I'll buy a couple of those small glowsticks used for fishing lures, and mount them in an
air pistol grip to illustrate the concept. Complete with video. :)

Also, I was being VERY polite about people who can't tell which end of the gun is which. If I wasn't, you'd have known it. I'm
not the shy, retiring type. HAHA!

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

DaRkDwArF December 2nd, 2001, 09:36 PM
quick suggestion...
why not offer the $50 night sights as well... it will increase sales and make you look more legitimate

------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try

nbk2000 December 3rd, 2001, 10:06 AM
The reason for not offering the luminous sights too is because everyone and his bitch is also selling them.

I'm the "exclusive" source for Glow-Grips, so why sullie myself with the common stuff? ;)

And I've worked on a more realistic looking version of the pictures.

Picture 1:
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip.jpg

Picture 2:
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip2.jpg

Which do you think more realistic?

AND

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip_Dark.jpg

The glow on this is taking straight from the TRASER glowrings shown above.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-03-2001).]

mongo blongo December 3rd, 2001, 01:25 PM
I think the first looks best.
Im no expert on this but when it's in the dark it looks brighter than on the first two.
It should also have some kind of glare surrounding it (in the dark).
Very good though!
------------------
AAARRRRRHHH! My beautiful eyes! It burns!
The goggles do nothing!AAARRRRRHHH!

[This message has been edited by mongo blongo (edited 12-03-2001).]
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CragHack December 3rd, 2001, 01:43 PM
will you be offering the mod for all manner of handgun or just for the glock series? I think it would be to your benefit to have a
multitude of handgun styles. (unless of course you are itching to get ahold of a glock and nothing else will do...)

Make more pictures with different types of popular handguns. I believe this will help legitimize your "business" because it
looks like you have the ability to work on all types of guns not just the glock.

------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

AR-15 Man December 3rd, 2001, 04:42 PM
I like the idea of having it show up on NVG. If say you are a raiding a place then your guys would show up big time so that
would cut down on friendly fire. But yes that could be turned around and you show out like a sore thumb to others with NVG.
How about an LED that cuts off when the pressure is on the grip or in the holster? Yea that requries batteries but still it solves
the holstering problem. And the device is limited use anyway. And just for the heck of it lets say the inside of th holster has
some lumisant paint so it can be on your bedside. Example Joe Smuck hears a sound. He sees the inside of the pistol holster
glowing. He grabs the pisol belt and buckles it. He pulls out the pistol. Oops Joe stumbles and drops the pistol. Guess what
LED's kick in and he sees the gun. Now that is better than exposing himself by turning all the lights on depending on several
factors of his home.

DaRkDwArF December 3rd, 2001, 05:57 PM
If you offer the product to a multitude of different handguns then that gives you a chance to figure out how they perform and
also how they are to service, etc...

Perhaps a review of this peice in the NBK2000 pdf showing the use and performance of the grips could be an idea? Show the
use of the pistol on a bedside table, in various holsters and so forth, this could prove a meaningfull use to those who still can't
quite come to grips with the principal of the product

------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-03-2001).]

nbk2000 December 4th, 2001, 02:42 AM
I thought it might also help to have some pictures by satisfied "customers" to make it look more believable. ;)

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip_Customer.jpg

I could say that I can install in any grip with a polymer grip. This would cover a lot of guns like Glock, Sig-Saur, FN, Berreta,
etc.

DaRkDwArF, that's true about getting to test-drive the various guns. IF I was doing this as a legit business than that would
definitely be a big benefit. Saves on reading magazine reviews, touring gun shops, buying something that might be a POS.

Plus that means plenty of range time wear and tear on other peoples equipment. :) Don't have to be as careful with it, but
don't want to break it either. It'd be inconvinient to have to buy a replacement part because I broke someone elses gun.

Naturally, if I'm getting dozens of free guns, then I could care less about wear and tear! Shoot it till it falls apart then pull out
another one.

Use it for a job, throw it away! No temptation to keep it when you have a surplus of them, right? :) Pass them around and your
gang might be the best armed on the block with tricked-out custom guns.

After all, the people who send their guns out to have Glow-Grips installed are also the same people who send them out to
other customizers for expensive trigger jobs and such.

No reason why there can't be a small pressure switch built into the grip somewhere that would keep the light off in the holster
or hand, but lit when not in one.

Perhaps it could be magnetic so a small magnet is attached to the holster, and when held it's covered by the hand, otherwise
it's exposed to allow recovery in the dark.

I'll make a video using the chemlights, that'll make it "proof-positive" that the product is "real". :) And it'll quite nicely
illustrate the product concept to everyone.

I still haven't heard back from the TRASER folks yet.

PS: I've replaced the photos in the first post with updated ones.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

mrloud December 4th, 2001, 05:04 AM
If you turn this into a legit business, all you firearm purchases can be claimed as tax deductions. (At least they could in Oz.)
After all, you need to experiment on different types of guns right?
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Why stop with guns? You could put a Traser in any sort of thing that can be used and therefore lost in the dark. Maglites,
dildos, domestic door locks, light switches, TV remotes, mobile phones, car ignitions, door bell backlights. Just a few that come
to mind.

nbk2000 December 4th, 2001, 06:17 AM
The whole reason for the scam is that, as an ex-con, I can't buy a gun at the store. Thus I either have to make them, steal
them, or trade for them.

The TRASER people already have flashlights with the capsules in them. As for the dildo.... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/
images/smilies/eek.gif

I also thought of the lamp switch knob, but the cost would probably prevent it from being popular since the TRASERS cost a
couple dollars each in 10,000+ lots. A lot more than the 20 cent replacement you find at Home Depot.

And there's still the problems of importation. These things are regulated in the US since they ARE radioactive. I'm still waiting
to hear from the TRASER people about what the importation regulations are in regards to this.

What I'd like to do would be to make my money off of the cops. Oh, the delicious irony of the cops paying a felon. http://
www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Handcuff keys, pepperspray, batons, radios, pens, all kinds of cop things could do with a light.

Anyways, this topic wasn't originally intended to be all about TRASERS.

Does anyone have any other ideas about things that could be done to improve a gun?

Or someother ways of obtaining a gun (scam/theft/robbery/whatever). And DON'T say "kill a cop" or "join the military" either.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Anthony December 4th, 2001, 09:35 AM
Desert Eagle .50cal firing bottlenecked rounds to .22 solid titanium (maybe cobalt or DU tipped) slugs through a smooth bore
barrel at 5000fps...http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Half seriously: I've heard that a good muzzle brake and spring recoil absorbs can reduce the recoil of a 50bmg to that of a
12guage shotgun. Of course the rifle weighing 30pounds probably helps a lot but there might just be a place for a 50bmg
handgun for someone with very strong wrists.

For those who couldn't tell which way they were holding a gun in the dark; a glow in the dark arrow pointing in the direction of
the muzzle.

A bit high tech, but have a transponder in a ring which the gun won't fire without being in close proximity to (in your hand).
Stops you being shot with your own gun but flat batteries or other failure would leave you stranded.

Something I noticed watching Womb Raider was the belt attatchment that held clips. The heel of the clip would slot into a
groove. The clip would hang horizontally from the back of your belt point outwards. So presuming your gun actually fully ejects
the spent clip, you run it onto the clip behind you, pull it upwards to release the heel from the plate, cock and carry on firing.
You could have several clips in a row. The assembly would have to be fairly rigid to stop it just flexing as the clip is inserted.

CyclonitePyro December 4th, 2001, 01:44 PM
Around here there are always yardsales and "flea markets", where people always have some guns for sale, usually hunting
rifles and shotguns, but sometimes you get lucky. They could care less about having the guns registered. And as yard sales,
ask the people if they have any guns for sale, or that they would like to get rid of.

------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

nbk2000 December 4th, 2001, 08:55 PM
I finally got a reply from TRASER.

=============================================

Dear *******

Thank you for this enquiry.

I have forwarded your enquiry onto the factory in Switzerland for their
comments and they will contact you directly about the feasibility of your
project. Although a good idea, there are certain legal requirements and
regulations which have to be considered.

However, I can tell you that the dimensions of the light that you have
mentioned are way beyond anything that could be used as they will fall well
outside the US regulatory limits. To be quite honest, a traser light in the
region of 1.4mm x 7mm would be adequate for the application you have in mind.

Yours sincerely
Roger Green
Managing Director
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traser UK Ltd

============================================
At a gun forum, I posted the question "Ever drop your gun?" and this is one of the (abbreviated) answers:

Yep, used to run late at night .... The Hi-Power bounced off the asphalt but the night sights made it easy to find, saw them as
it slid across the pavement. I use a lanyard now ....

Ah HA!

Seems I'm onto something here folks. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

And I now KNOW that $110 was way too cheap. Check out the prices for the trijicon sights. http://www.gunaccessories.com/
Trijicon/NightSights.asp

Yard sales....that's an idea. I'd imagine you would have to ask since I don't think most people would put them out where
someone might steal it.

But what if you live somewhere (like britian) that doesn't allow private ownership?

"Womb Raider"?! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

I'm assuming "Tomb Raider". http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I had a "sort-of" similar idea about a spring loaded holder that would fit on your duty belt (cop talk) and hold one magazine.

You'd hit it hard with the butt of your empty gun, the magazine would flip out of the holder (still being retained) and you could
then slid the gun over it, loading the magazine. The magazine is magnetically retained, or perhaps a little velcro patch...

The idea is that a person could single handedly reload in a second or two without having to use both hands.

One thing I noticed in the "drop your gun" topic was that a lot of peoples shit was falling out of loose, or well worn, holsters.
Several of them were in public. Not good if you have a CCW, even worse if you're not supposed to be carrying at all.

Why not superglue a powerful magnet in the holster where the business end of the barrel is to retain it once it's fully inserted.
A neodymium magnet of about the size of a dime will hold 10 pounds or more and only costs like $5.

It'd be a good idea to have several of these at various places like under the desk at work, in your car, under cabinets in the
house, etc. This way you can always have a place to stick your piece if you need it nearby without being on you.

Or maybe, even better, glue the magnet to the gun itself. And while you're at it, a peel off tab that exposes a sticky glue.
Then, if you need to conceal it quickly (like hiding it from bacon) you can stick it to anything and retrieve it later. Or conceal it
in places that no one would expect a gun to be able to be hidden, like ON, not in, a wall. All within easy reach.

One thing I've read of is gang-bangers carrying their piece in gallon sized freezer bags. They put their hands in and zip it
closed around their wrist so that, during use, the shell casings are retained in the bag, leaving that much less evidience behind
for the pork.

PS: I've re-edited the first post with an animated GIf.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

Sako December 4th, 2001, 10:11 PM
Hey Nbk, I think its a little funny that on your web page you say that your company uses a CNC mill, when it would be just as
easy to mill in a slot with a regular mill, you might lose credibility with customers.
What about offering other items, like knives and batons that has the TRASER in the handle......with purchase of glow grip of
coarse

nbk2000 December 4th, 2001, 10:33 PM
Modern manufacturers use CNC because of the precision. It's much more accurate and repeatable than manually doing it.

Plus, the equipment is much more expensive, putting it out of the reach of an amatuer. Only a "pro" would invest $20,000 in
a CNC milling machine, eh?

And offering other products like batons or such, but only if they send in their guns, that would REALLY sound suspecious.

No, better to "specialize" in only the one product. That way I'd get only the things I'd want, guns.

Any othe suggestions for bogus products that would require someone to mail you their piece? Perhaps some sort of hi-tech
electronic do-dad like a "smart lock" or such?

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

Anthony December 5th, 2001, 05:37 AM
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Yep, Miss "I'd have two broken wrists if these were live rounds" herself.

The spring from sleeve to hand things from Taxi Driver - "with our latest product YOU can be the most badass mofo in the
hood!"

If laser mounts aren't comon for handguns you could fit them, with laser. There's got to be a lot of SWAT wannabes.

nbk2000 December 5th, 2001, 08:12 AM
We had someone post the URL for sleeveguns in the past so I re-found it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Picture of the original can be seen here:

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/graphics/sleeve_gun_device.jpg

Unfortunately, as with self-luminous sights, everyone and his BITCH http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/
tongue.gif sells them.

The only laser products that I haven't seen available to civilians are IR laser gunsights, green laser gunsights, or blinding
lasers.

IR is "restricted" http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/barf.gif to cops and military only for some stupid reason.
But IR laser modules are available, and are as near as your CD player. I think a retrofit wouldn't be TOO difficult into normal
red laser sights.

Green lasers are available as pointers, but not gunsights. Never mind that the green is WAYYYY brighter than the red. I think
it has something to do with delicate construction or something of the diodes.

Blinding lasers are banned under international laws like the geneva, but that (again) only applies to military/LE, not civilians.
Commercial lasers costing several thousand dollars can blind quite easily. But integrating that into a weapon might cost some
serious bucks.

Supposedly NORINCO (Chinas weapons manufacturer) sells a blinding laser weapon. And the chinese will sell anything to
anyone if you're spending enough to make it worth their time.

I remember this neat book called "Tony's Justice" where the bad guy had a gimmicked .45 that he'd let the victim snatch away
from him, only to let them discover that it wouldn't work for them. At which point he had already buried a knife in there guts.

But anyways, I'm looking at my air pistol and noted how, by adding a small lever spring to the safety, I could make it so that,
unless you're holding the safety in the fire position with your index finger while firing with your middle finger, the safety is
always engaged.

Now, if a person had a small stud installed into the frame of a real gun that worked a similar way, if someone snatched your
glock (my favorite) away, they couldn't shoot you with it.

After all, how many people are going to shot you with the OSS method of point shooting? That's the way Ruby shot Oswald.

They snatch it, and while they're confused about why the "safetyless" glock isn't working, you stick 'em or run like hell. Either
way, you're ass is saved against your own stupidity at letting someone get your piece from you.

I've installed an LED blinker in a pocket dragon handle. I'll post a video later tonight showing what I mean about finding your
shit in the dark. And YES, the battery is outside, but what do you want for something that took me 5 minutes to throw together
for free?

A Glow-Grip would have lithium watch battery, voltage controller, microswitchs, and SMD LEDs, all encapsulated in silicone. It'd
also cost big bucks.

I've thought though that a major drawback to a Glow-Grip would be if you're trying to ditch the gun during a police pursuit or
search. Last thing you want is the gun drawing attention to itself by BLINKING at them!

This would be one of those situations where a lanyard would come in handy since you don't have to worry about accidentally
losing your piece, thus you don't have to have the blinker turned on.

I've e-mailed Ruger, S&W, and tried to find Glocks e-mail, asking them if I could obtain dummy grips or grip feedstock for a
development project for their guns.

I didn't give them ANY details about my idea (I'm not THAT stupid!), just that it involves the grips and that it could mean big
bucks for them. Maybe I'll actually get some.

AR-15, I've read elsewhere about the night-sights being "beacons" to NVGs.

Soundtrack for this post provided courtesy of Rage Against the Machine and Fear Factory

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

J December 5th, 2001, 10:17 AM
Just posting to comment on the 'what if you live in Britain' part:

I don't know of any sure way to get a gun (leaving asside making one). If I NEEDED a gun (i.e. my life was in danger) I'd ask
some of my friends where they got their drugs from. I'd get in contact with a few dealers, and see if any of them knew
anybody who could help.
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The obvious disadvatages are that you don't know who you're dealing with and they don't know you.

If they do have a gun, then they could just as easily rip you off AND keep the merchendise. After all, what would you tell the
police? Vengeance would be difficult, since you don't know who they really are.

J

------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

Anthony December 5th, 2001, 10:19 AM
Dunno if a fax No. for glock is any good to you (I was browsing the site last night):

http://www.glock.com/contact_us.htm

IR Laser (1/2mile):
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/listings/79.html

Green Laser (1mile)[bit pricey this one]
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/listings/80.html

AR-15 Man December 5th, 2001, 06:33 PM
Ok lets discuss other gun improvements. Let make an AK with a easier safety, better iron sites like ghost rings, make a
modular system for it and for AK's in .223 use AR-15 mags cause it is a faster change. Or just a faster mag change system.
Ok sorry if you think I want an AR out of the AK but the Ergomics of the AR are impressive. I still love AKs though. Or hell why
not just buy an AR-180. Maybe cut an AKs groups down to 1.5 inches (yes Ak aren't accurate some can get groups like that
like my SA-85m with match ammo but not regular ammo and certainly not my MAK-90s most of the ARs I have owned can get
1.5 groups with regular ammo) But don't think I am saying AR-15 varients are the best either. With AR-15s make the feed lips
stronger. Make sure your user knows how to clean the thing. Also add tungsten inserts to MAC bolts to slow down cylic rate on
them down to maybe 500 rounds per minutes. Other than those things I am on the KISS prinicpal on weapons.

nbk2000 December 6th, 2001, 07:27 PM
Uploaded the GLOW-GRIP video to my briefcase.

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo

It's a RealVideo file 218KB in size.

You'll see a blinking LED in the grip of a pocket dragon in both light and total dark.

In the dark, the LED is visible from more than 100 feet away (directly).

BTW, the grips for a pocket dragon can be pried open easily and are almost completely hollow. Plenty of room in there for
electronics. Now if I could just find a reliable electronic ignition system....

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

DaRkDwArF December 6th, 2001, 10:12 PM
I did a bit of research into the sleeve gun, I can't find any plans or technical drawings, so I emailed Ted Smith from
sleevegun.com here is his reply:

Cheers yourself #####, sorry but I have no pictures,and I do not stock the device.I make it to order. I have one partially
finished and could complete it in about a week. How soon do you need it. Maybe you wont need it when I tell you the price.
$295.00 P.P. insured and sent priorty mail . Let me know as soon as possible.----TS

That price makes the sleeve gun a little out of everybodys price range, I think I'll get into a little bit of research on the tpoic
and I might try making one these holidays.

If anybody here has any pics or plans can you please reply with your e-mail adress

------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-06-2001).]

nbk2000 December 7th, 2001, 01:43 AM
Anthony, the IR laser on that site is actually still visible as a very faint dark red. 780nm is at the high end of the visible
spectrum. It'd have to be over 9000nm to be truly invisible.

As for the green, US$600+?! Shit, you can buy a green laser module for $200 or less. I think I can manage the rest with the
spare change.

The TV gunsight (in my PDF) is a neat idea, but it suffers from having to rely on electronics and batteries.

I called a company that manufacturers fiber optic viewers that use no electronics or anything, just fiber and lens.
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They want $1,300! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

Now if it was $130....then you'd have the shit there! Sure, it can't see in the dark....but you don't need to worry about using a
light if the enemy can't hit you anyways, right?

And FO transmitts IR same as visible, so if you're wearing NVG, you can still use IR illuminators while being behind cover.

Not specifically gun-related, but if there was a small FO periscope attachment that you could extend from your helmet so you
could look over a wall or trench without having to expose your head, that would go a long way to keeping it (your head) intact.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Periscope.jpg

Another idea I've been kicking around for a long time is personal ECM (Electronic Counter-Measures).

Start with a car Laser/Radar detector that can determine the direction of the threat. Add in a circuit to activate an explosive
smoke canister that projects out in the direction of the threat laser.

When you're lased by an enemy piggie, the detector squeals a moment before it launches a flashbang-smoke canister.

The squeal lets you know that it's detected a threat and is about to launch CM ( CounterMeasures), allowing you to brace for
it.

The canister fires from a projector (design your own) out about 7 feet before it explodes with a thunderous bang, blinding
flash, and large cloud of dense smoke.

This will startle the enemy, temporarily flash blind them (at night), and obscure their seeing you with the smoke.

You can then E&E, or hit the deck (out of the line of fire) and let loose on 'em. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon22.gif

Radar would activate a jammer to prevent them from using their new radar motion detector to detect your position/presence.

You might also want to throw in EM field (proximity detectors) and Ultrasound (motion detectors) to warn of pesky burglar
alarms.

I'd also include a voice command switch to command lauch it front or back in case the enemy gets the drop on you without
lasing. You pretend to surrender (if they don't immediately shoot you) and then BANG 'em!

They do have voice-recognition that can be programmed, recognize a voice under almost any condition, and small too, though
expensive at several hundred dollars.

A FO mesh over the vest would detect a bullet strike and automatically launch CM to prevent a follow up shot to your head.
Throw in a manual switch on the collar (hands behind your head) and now you're set. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/
images/smilies/cool.gif

Body armor has its uses, but most likely the threat is to your front, so why weigh yourself down with the unneeded weight?

Take off the back half, and pass it over to your 2nd. You DO have a 2nd, right? You should NEVER fight alone.

Or, you can wear both half halves on the front to make it twice as bullet-resistant for the same weight.

The russians have these neat silent cartridges for normal guns that are TOTALLY silent. All the combustion gas is contained
within the casing. There is enough recoil to operate normal semi and fully automatic weapons.

They're lethal out to 25 yards, which isn't a lot, but more than enough inside of a house or building.

Mow 'em down with only the screams being heard. Maybe not even screams if you head-shot 'em by surprise. http://
assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif

We've already covered automatic "sentry" guns in the past.

With the GLOW-GRIPS you could color code the gun to indicate what kind it is (pistol, rifle, etc) which might be useful.

I'd definitely think that marking the magazines would be useful. Green would be ball, yellow/tracer, red/poisoned or AP, etc.

The TRASERs for this would be in the top of the magazine so it won't show. Only when you open up your ammo pouch would it
show.

Or perhaps they could be in the magazine follower, so after you eject it, you can find it in the dark to take it with you.

IDEA: put luminous tape on the follower. When the last round is fired, the flash will (might?) charge up the tape so it'll glow for
at least a minute or two afterwards.

Magazines with geometric shapes glued/formed into them would do the same thing by feel. Ball/Round, Tracer/Star, AP/
Triangle, Poisoned/Trifoil, Hollowpoint/Square.

A velcro patch attached to magazines, with a velcro panel on your vest/armor would allow you to slap the used magazines on
so you don't waste time with putting them back into the pouch, and you don't leave them behind.

It also allows you to have a spare magazine immediately available without dinking around with pouches.

A retractable lanyard built into the weapons stock/grip that extends out a few feet and locks would be cool. It's out of the way
when not needed, but you can instantly clip on when needed (climbing/swimming) so you don't lose your piece.

Wouldn't a gun with built in stunner be neat? If it's out of your hand, it goes "hot", making it impossible for anyone else to
pick it up and use it against you.

Naturally, they wouldn't find this out till they pick it up. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon25.gif http://www.thefiringline.com/
forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
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Soundtrack for this post provided by Kitaro and Soul Coughing

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-07-2001).]

PYRO500 December 7th, 2001, 03:05 PM
How about a amall charge of ap or something in the handle, when you loode the gun anyone picking it up without a special
ring or something that causes the bullets to cook off, just let me not here I would not choose AP for this task, it's too
unstable.

------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]

nbk2000 December 8th, 2001, 12:16 AM
And what happens if you're dead ass tired and grab the gun, forgetting that you took off the transponder ring in the shower?

OOPS!

Not good....

Anything that I'm carrying on a daily basis has to be safe for me, even if I forget about the tricks.

A stunner, though painful, isn't going to blow off my hand.

I have been thinking that an incendiary coating on the exterior of the gun could be useful.

The mix would have to be something durable, so it won't flake off. It also has to be ignitable ONLY with a special igniter or
intense, prolonged flame. This way it doesn't ignite from a gun shot.

The coating is applied to the slide and grip. When you need to ditch the gun, you ignite the coating. This burns off removing
fingerprints and DNA, while also damaging the gun, preventing it's reuse if found by someone.

This could be automated by embedding a timer circuit in the coating that'll ignite it if removed from the magnetically charged
holster for more than an hour or two. This way, if lost or recovered by pigs, it makes no difference.

Unfortunately, a lot of ideas require electronics, which I know absolutely squat shit about.

But, an associate is paroling in a few months and he's been taking vocational training from an ex-silicon valley enginner in
electronics. So that should be useful.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

BoB- December 10th, 2001, 12:34 AM
Hey NBK, I dont own a glock so it took me a while to notice this, isnt there a big button magazine release on the left side of
the Glock model firearm? A glock owner might notice that there isnt one on the pictured gun dude.

It might fuck your credibilty if victims can tell the "satisfied customer's" gun isnt real http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/smile.gif

------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.

[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 12-09-2001).]

nbk2000 December 11th, 2001, 02:46 AM
Well, it looks more and more like I could actually make a real business off this:

===========================================

Dear Mr. *******

Through our representative in England (traser UK) we have received your inquiry for a suitable traser® for embedding in a
pistol grip.

We are the manufacturer of traser® lights and produce them exactly to the
manufacturers specifications. Accordingly it is not at all a problem to produce a special sized traser® for your application.

We understand the purpose of introducing a traser® in the grip of a pistol is that the
weapon can be found quickly in the dark. We assume that the pistol should be seen from distance of up to 3 m.
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If our assumption is correct, a much smaller light, e.g. a traser® having a diameter of
1.4 mm and a length of 5 mm could be used.

In our opinion this light should provide enough brightness, especially if it is embedded on white surface.

There are two reason for using the smallest possible traser®:

1. The price for the above traser® would be in the order of CHF 1.- (USD $0.60) each while a traser® with diameter 3 mm and
a length of 25 mm would cost CHF 4.50 (USD $2.70).

2. The tritium content is much smaller on a small light (for instance 20mCi) for the example given above, compared with 500
mCi for the light you suggested in our mail. A small tritium content would give you much
better chances to get the necessary permission to import and handle the traser®
and also the permission to distribute your pistols containing a traser® in the grip.

Assuming you are located in the USA, you would have to contact the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission to get such
permissions.

In other countries there are equivalent authorities, but each country has its own regulations and the fact that you have for
instance a permission to distribute the product in one country does not necessarily mean you can distribute in an other country
too.

To get these permissions may take at least several months.

Nevertheless, we are prepared to support you as much as we can. If you would be so kind to let us have your postal address
we will be pleased to send you our documentation and if you wish samples of different size free of charge http://
assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon25.gif for your first experiments regarding the required size of the traser®.

Sincerely yours
mb-microtec ag

Jacob Bänziger
General Marketing Manager

=============================================

Ahh...the joys of free industrial samples. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Looks like Christmas came early
for me.

I'm going to ask for dots, bars, cylinders, and squares in both green, yellow, and IR.

Needless to say, in accordance to the RTPB "Anything free must be exploited!", I'm going to, after I get the first ones, be
constantly pestering them for various types, sizes, and shapes for my ever increasing "product development research". http://
assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon7.gif

And let's not forget shop spoilage, ya know? These little glass tubes are bound to break when being test fired, eh? http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

OOOHHHH, it burns me up to see the prices that the manufacturer charges for the things, and compare that to the ursuris
mark up that trijicon tacks on!

60 cents, and trijicon is charging $50 over for smaller lamps!

As regards the magazine release button, it's at the junction of the trigger guard, where it meets the grip.

Being black on black it's very difficult to see it in pictures.

And realism is the reason I use real gun photos, so there'd be NO technical errors to trip me up like that.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

vulture December 11th, 2001, 05:15 AM
How about coating it with plastic that gets dark when heat is applied, so if you run around with it in the dark, the heat of your
hand will turn the plastic dark and block the light, making you less visible.
With all these polymers we have nowadays that should be possible.

btw, i thought tritium is a hydrogen isotope, 1 proton, 2 neutrons?

------------------
"I just need some tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam, need to help my mother painting..."

nbk2000 December 11th, 2001, 07:01 AM
Firearms are useable at any temperature from arctic to tropics. Trying to use temperature sensitive polymers as shutters, while
a nice idea, wouldn't be practicle.

What if you're wearing gloves, or it's -30F outside? What if you live in texas where it's over 95 at night?

Besides, if your hand can warm it, your hand can cover it, eh? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Yes, tritium is <sup>3</sup>H, but it breaks down into helium. There's always helium present with tritium.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

nbk2000 December 19th, 2001, 08:55 PM
Quick Update:

The tritium lamps are on the way, having been airmailed from Switzerland monday. So (probably) this week I'll have at least a
half dozen of the little bastards to toy with.

Next time I post here I'll have video of them in the dark for your perusal.

Also, in order to import these, a person needs an NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commision) license.

But, having a "legit" purpose for these, and a demonstrator model and business plan, I should have it within a few months.

Why do I mention this? Well...once you have an NRC license, that means you can get ALL nuke goodies! http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Except plutonium. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Depleted uranium would be a start. I was supposed to get some from the manufacturer as a "research sample" but the
fuckers flaked on me. BASTARDS!

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

RTC December 29th, 2001, 12:47 AM
Not to sound impatient, but have they arrived?

Also has your NRC gone through ok?

And I assume the depleated uranium could be refined into weapons grade..?

------------------
We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to
the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see.

nbk2000 December 31st, 2001, 04:50 AM
Yes, I have received them.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/TRASERS.jpg

I got 10 "grains of rice" (worth ¢60 each)(though actually smaller than rice) lights, 2 matchstick sized (worth $2 each), and one
large IR light (~$5).

I've already broken one of the "grain" lamps. It didn't like getting squished between a gun hammer and the frame. :(

Some observations I've made:

The tiny lights aren't visible beyond about 3 yards except in absolute darkness, and even then you can't see them past about
6 yards because they're so small. Fireflys are brighter.

But they are more than adequate for gun sights, which is where I now have two of them, taped on my guns sights till I get a
dremel tool and can permanently install them.

The matchstick lamps are awesome! One of them is sufficent to see a pathway in total darkness, two is better of course. :)

I could see one light from more than 20 yards during an overcast full moon. Could probably double that during no moon.

The IR light has a faint orange glow to it. It's the dimmest of the lights in apparent brightness, but it's also easier to see from
farther away then the "grains" because its size makes it easier to resolve. I can see it from about 10 yards in very dim light.

And being orange makes it easy to differentiate the grip from the sights and the way the lights are showing lets you know
which way the handle is pointing.

I'm currently using the orange in a simple "red dot" sight. I have a short cardboard tube with the lamp suspended in mid-air
by having one end wrapped in toilet paper. The lamp is in the far end of the tube. I then taped it to the top of the gun.

Now, I have simply to align the "dot" of the lamp in the middle of an orange halo and I'm on target.

I think I'll be needing to get some colored "grains" next order.

I'm thinking that, while the "matchstick" lamps are great and would allow for finding your gun no problem, they're TOO bright
for tactical use. The reflected light would give you away. But they would be adequate for hunters to find a dropped weapon.

I'm now thinking that a configaration like this:

<PRE>
| | (RED)
| |
=====
===== (GREEN)
</PRE>
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would be better. An inverted T, with the wide part towards the base, and the long end towards the top. This both tells you the
guns orientation, uses minimal trasers (easier to import), and emits enough light to see it for a few yards but not enough to
give you away to an enemy at a distance.

No, I haven't applied yet for the NRC license. Firstly, I need to actually develop this as a product, establish a need amongst
law-enforcement, THEN apply. Because I'd be supplying the piggies, it'd be more likely to be approved, and allow for more
powerful lamps to be imported.

BTW, ALL Depleted Uranium is considered "weapons grade" though not in an atomic bomb sense. It's used to make armor
piercing bullets. I was supposed to get some GAU-8 30mm DU penetrators from the manufacturer to make microturbine
generator flywheels (for laptop computers ;) ), but they flaked on me and I didn't feel like pressing the issue. I'll hit 'em up
again if I get the NRC license. Then they can't give me no shit.

Next on the agenda is to obtain some sapphire windows for protecting the lights. I've got a big list of manufacturers I'm going
to be hitting up for "samples". :) Also quartz and tempered glass. Though I prefer sapphire because of its well known scratch
resistance.

Another thing I've been looking at is the newest type of phosphorescent materials. Not the green paint crap you can buy at the
hobby store, but some seriously bright shit that'll stay glowing for more than 12 hours after only a few minutes exposure to
light.

It's called (don't laugh) <A HREF="http://www.starscapes.com/alienskin/3.htm">"Alien Skin"</A>. $30 for 4 sheets@5"x7".

This would have the advantage of not needing any license, is totally solid-state (hence no need for protecting fragile lamps),
and cheap (compared to the trasers).

It does need to be exposed to light though to be charged so it wouldn't work for guns that are stored for long periods of time
in the dark like in gun safes or trunks. But for a home-owner who keeps it on the nightstand, it'd be perfect.

There's a similar product called "Extreme Glow" that's not quit as bright, but much cheaper, that be used similarly. It's also
available in powdered form so it could be cast in acrylic resin into any shape I'd like, like a gun grip panel.

I'd like a hybrid of the two. A large phosphorescent panel for maximum brightness, and a traser light as a permanent backup,
all encapsulated behind a shock mounted, scratch proof sapphire window.

I'm also thinking there's other things that could be done with the lamps. Installing a red lamp in the hammer spur so it shows
when the hammer is cocked back, or a lamp in the safety so it's green when it's engaged, red (or none) when it's off.

In other news, there's now an installable safety available for glocks at <a href="http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm"
target="_blank">http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm</a>

Also, a trigger block is available for $15 called <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/saftblok/">Saf-T-Blok</A> that installs
behind the trigger in a glock.

<CENTER>http://members.aol.com/saftblok/stealth4.gif</CENTER>

It's a simple piece of plastic that you can pop out by simply pressing against it with your trigger finger.

Now, if someone snatches your glock away, it'll take them a few seconds (at least) to figure out why it won't fire, by which time
you've either counterattacked or ran away.

Though I'd suggest attaching it to the gun using a very short lanyard (inch or two), lest you leave behind a little plastic plug at
a crime scence with a partial fingerprint on it. Not good...

It'll also keep you from blowing off your nuts if you stuff it in your pants.

Anyways, I tried to take pictures, but my JamCam can't take pictures in the dark. I'll have video as soon as I get the windows
CD I need for installing the video camera drivers. Sometime this week.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</p>

nbk2000 January 9th, 2002, 11:19 AM
I got the CD I needed and have upped a 3.6MB, 1 minute long RealVideo to the FTP showing the various TRASERs, comparing
size and brightness, and showing the gun use.

It's a little rough since I wanted to get it out ASAP.

Please note that the lamps are actually much brighter to the eye than it is to the camera. The large lamps are detectable out
to almost 50 yards in total darkness (no moon or stars), the small lights to 10 yards.

RTC January 9th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Looks good, When you show the smaller one as a close up, are you holding it with a pair of tweezers?

nbk2000 January 9th, 2002, 11:58 PM
Forceps actually. The small lamps are too small to be held by the fingers without totally covering them up.

I've already broken two of the smaller ones. :(

The punks at Glock refused to send me any of their plastic stock material to practice on, saying they don't want to give implied
consent to any modifications that'd be performed on their product. :confused: Whatever!

Now I just have to get some money for a dremel and an airsoft gun to start carving on. Still haven't received any of the
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sapphire window samples yet.

Once I've got that suitably done, I'll produce a real slick video demo (it'll take me days instead of the hour my previous video
took) that'll look like it was professionally produced, or a really good amatuer at least. I've got the tools, thanks to warez. :)

Then I'll send it to the TRASER people to make them "Ooh and Ahh" over the new Glow-Grip "product". :D

THEN, I'll hit them up for a butt load more of the lights, saying that I need them for sending out to the gun rags for reviewing
to build up market hype...yada yada. ;)

mr.evil March 11th, 2002, 10:33 AM
Hey,
Has anyone of you guys made an 'blackpowder' cannon? i've just know to obtain a barrel from an old gun(about 4.5mm, i
think an old air rifle :rolleyes: )

later this week i make a rack, from wood..to put the 'cannon' in it, damn i wish i had an digital camera :(

(sorry for my shitty english)

Bitter March 11th, 2002, 10:41 AM
Not a very big cannon is it ?

mr.evil March 11th, 2002, 11:48 AM
hehe no not really :D , you can't call it a cannon i think, it's more an home-improved-gun.
but anyway, it's my first one...
(accept of my 2spudguns :cool: )

nbk2000 March 12th, 2002, 04:07 PM
Mr. evil, you're severely off topic!

Potato guns, cannons, whatever, does NOT fit in with the subject of this topic.

Post a new topic to discuss it, or better yet, reply to an existing topic. Just change you're view from "(whatever) past days" to
"all topics".

A-BOMB March 12th, 2002, 06:01 PM
I got an idea why don't we all pitch in a by a ramsome rest and all the ramsome rest inserts and then offer to sight in peoples
rifles and pistols prefectly for them, It gives a good way to shoot all kinds of guns and use them for other things like
assinasion, robberies, that sort of thing (like we would ever to that, all us the pictures of grace and goodness <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

nbk2000 March 14th, 2002, 02:27 AM
People don't send off their guns to get sighted in because its much easier to do it themselves. Especially since scopes are
highly sensitive to being jostled about.

Anyways, I've thought of something else that can be done to improve a gun.

It's not something you could really sell, but it'd be good for your own use, if you happen to be of the criminal persuasion. :D

The following is part of an article in NBK v2.0

Also, from now on, I'm watermarking my pictures. I caught someone using one of my pictures elsewhere.

Also, I'd like to clarify what constitutes a "Gun" as it relates to this topic. A gun is anything that uses a fixed metallic cartridge
to fire a lethal projectile from a factory manufactured weapon. It does NOT include potato launching toys or improv'd BP
cannons, OK? :rolleyes:

<HR ALIGN="CENTER" SIZE="5">

Every gun has a handle for you to hold it by. This is also the most likely part of a weapon for the police to find either your
fingerprints or DNA.

One trick that used to be used by Mafia hitters was to wrap the handle of a gun (usually) with cloth tape. This made it
impossible to retrieve any fingerprints since it wasn't a smooth surface.

But this trick no longer works because the fabric would retain DNA in the form of skin cells. Plus the forensics lab can use
cyanoacrylate fuming or laser luminescence to recover prints off of fabric.

But you can obviate this hazard entirely if you coat the handle and all normal contact surfaces of the weapon with a lacquer
made from smokeless gunpowder. This lacquer is ignited, and as it burns off, it turns into gas, removing all DNA and
fingerprints with it.

To make the lacquer, you use any smokeless powder available, preferably single base. This is dissolved in warm acetone till a
thick, honey-like consistency is reached.

You prime the gun for coating by roughening the surfaces with a steel brush or grinding wheel. It must be roughend or the
lacquer will flake off from handling.

<CENTER> <img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Pyro-Coated-Gun_WM.jpg" alt="" /></CENTER>[
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You then paint all the surfaces of the gun that would be touched by your hands in normal usage. You DO NOT paint the sights,
pins, catches or releases, the slide, or any other moving part together. Much like you wouldn't paint a window shut.

All the levers and parts must be free to move.

You paint the lacquer on in thin, even, layers over the needed places, allowing to dry thoroughly between coatings.

Once you've achieved 5 or more layers, the lacquer will be strong enough for handling.

You then take a similar lacquer made of polystyrene dissolved in acetone and paint it over the pyro coating. This will prevent
any sparks or flames from the gun from prematurely igniting it. Two coatings should be sufficient.

You could add a small blob of igniter compound as shown to ease ignition, but simply taking a match to it will ignite it. Once
ignited, it can't be put out, even if totally underwater.

Now I can hear some of you saying "Why would I ruin a perfectly good gun by burning it up?".

The answer to that is simple...BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO END UP BEING BUBBA'S BITCH IN PRISON! Which is where you'll
end up if the cops find your fingerprints or DNA on a murder weapon, dumbass.

mrloud March 14th, 2002, 09:07 AM
Here's an Australian company (actually just one guy) that makes "laser bullets". Basically it's just an empty shell with a laser
diode in it. This guy sells his product to the police and army for a large sum of money.

Unfortunately this won't require people to send you their guns NBK, but it could help in getting you a good reputation amongst
gun owners.

(edited to upadte signature now that MIT's PGP key server requires you to connect on port 11371)

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: mrloud ]</small>

xoo1246 March 14th, 2002, 09:36 AM
Why not coat you hands with a par of gloves? Mags and shells have finger prints too.

FragmentedSanity March 14th, 2002, 10:10 AM
Lo all :)

I just thought it worth mentioning that NBK never said you had to burn the gun when whatever job was finished. A coating like
that would stay on the gun for ages and would be used WHEN or IF needed - and as for gloves - with all the high tek gizmos
forensics have these days (if youve never been shown through a police forensics lab you really dont know - and no - watching
CSI dosent count) I wouldnt trust gloves as much as Id trust a nice hot flame.
any ideas on roughly how hot it would get NBK?
or could the pyro varnish be made burn hotter by addition of some al powder or something? personally Id like it to get hot
enough to warp and distort the piece beyond all hope of ever functioning again.

later all
FS

nbk2000 March 14th, 2002, 10:47 AM
I believe it burns at over 1,200F. More than enough to take care of the plastic frame most weapons have nowadays.

A person could add aluminum powder or such to make the flame a little hotter. Just add it to the lacquer while sitll liquid.

You're also correct that the coating isn't always used. It's just there in case of need. Especially since one may not have been
wearing gloves at the time of use (unexpected emergencies happen).

A-BOMB March 14th, 2002, 11:57 AM
NBK, I just found this stuff at the store its a polimeric plastic compound that you paint onto a tool to keep it from being
comtaminated by a substance(oil,gas,ketones,cleaning fluids), and when your done with your job you just pull on a tap that
you affixed to it be for you coated it and it comes right off. Wells heres my idea you paint the hold pistol with the paint then
when the jobs over you just pull off the coating and presto a clean gun with no prints or DNA. So what to you think? Ooo Aaa
new smilies :)

mongo blongo March 14th, 2002, 12:05 PM
I thought it was worth mentioning something I watched on TV a while back.You may already know this though.
It was about forensics being able to tell if you fired a specific bullet by examining your cloths.
When a bullet if fired from a gun, small amounts of the bullet is vaporized into the air. This vapor then condenses into small
globules and settles onto the surrounding environment. It can land on your cloths, skin,etc.
Every bullet is manufactured in batches and contains it's own unique amounts of elements. (I can't remember which ones, I
think Antimony was one of them.)
They can then examine the cloths under an electron microscope and pick particles and qualitatively determine what elements
are present. This can then be matched up with a specific batch of bullets.
So i guess you can still be fucked even if the murder weapon was never found!
You would also have to get rid of the cloths and wash loads to prevent this.

nbk2000 March 14th, 2002, 05:26 PM
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A-Bomb, are you talking about the stuff called "Plasti-dip"? That could work too, though I don't know about how much heat it
could take from a rapid fired pistol before the slide got hot enough to melt it off.

Also, if you have to ditch the gun in a hurry (hot persuit), than what do you do with the plastic you peeled off? It'll still have
the residue (Prints, DNA) on it, and it is something you'd have to destroy anyways. But you could possibly use that instead of
the polystyrene for a better grip since it is rubbery.

Mongo, that's called "Thermal Nuetron Activation Analysis". They bombard the evidence with thermal nuetron radiation, which
causes all the metallic elements to emit characteristic patterns of alpha, beta, and gamma radiation. The ratios and intensity
of the resulting radiation can be match to sample bullets.

The way to avoid this, besides properly dressing for it, is to use one box of bullets, and to dispose of them, and the weapon
that fired them, immediately after use.

Without the specific bullets or weapon to compare their TNA results against, they're only left with the most general type of
evidence, which any decent defense lawyer can discredit.

Also, I thought you'd like to know that Metro Dade police (florida) marks their agencys Glock barrels by putting a small prick
mark with a punch at the end of the barrel to differentiate their fired bullets from any "bad guys" bullets.

This came after a cop and criminal got into a shoot out (both using Glocks of the same caliber) and a bystander was killed.
The forensics lab couldn't tell who's gun fired the lethal shot because Glocks are extremely similar because of the tight
tolerances and quality of machining.

nbk2000 March 17th, 2002, 02:30 AM
I just found these nifty all plastic bullet and casings that use a primer as the propellant.

<img src="http://www.speer-bullets.com/images/training.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.speer-bullets.com/bullets/training.html" target="_blank">http://www.speer-bullets.com/bullets/
training.html</a>

300-400 FPS wih just a primer. Now they SAY not to use any additional propellant. But I'd imagine with a grain of red-dot that
the plastic slug would zip along quite quickly.

Extrememly close range, hand assembled, using minimal metal content metal primers (possibly use primer pellets of
Armstrong mix for metal free priming), cheap....I see potential here.

<small>[ March 17, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

FragmentedSanity March 17th, 2002, 11:09 AM
Ive been thinking about somethng like that ever since I bought a confetti gun - I thnk you posted some details about it NBK,
but Id given the idea up by then as I could never find and info on casting plastics.
I could only see these as useful if completely self manufactured - otherwise you would need all the licencing involved in buying
real bullets and then you may as well buy them.
So does our vast collective consciousness have any knowledge about making plastics and casting shapes with it?

It would not only have potential for bypassing metal detectors - but owuld be great for what those cartridgers are designed for
- cheap training rounds - especailly handy as they would be easy to silence so you could use it indoors without too many
problems and shoot the mice or the neighbors cat or whatever.
FS

nbk2000 March 17th, 2002, 11:14 AM
I don't know where you live, but in the US at least, you can buy ammo through the mail with no ID or anything. You just send
them a signed statement to the effect "I'm not a kid or a criminal" and you're set. :)

You can cast bullets if you must using auto body filler epoxy (Bond-o) and plaster molds.

And I also thought that the Speer bullet casings looked like the confetti gun shells. Maybe they're the same?

nbk2000 March 27th, 2002, 10:49 PM
Well, I've tried out the pyro coating idea and it works.

I used shotgun powder dissolved in acetone to a thin honey syrup consistancy. This was poured over a metal knife handle in
thin layers and allowed to dry before another layer was put on.

After it was at least a millimeter thick, it was put in a warm oven for a half hour for final drying.

It ignited fairly easily, and burned completely, leaving only a thin filmy residue that peeled off easily.

There was no damage to the knife.

What I've learned so far is that coating wood with this doesn't work. Apparently the wood acts as an insulator and prevents the
coating from burning. Maybe it needs the heat transfer of metal to continue burning, I don't know.

I thought I could add potassium nitrate to increase burning. It doesn't work. It just sputters and pops for a second before
going out.

I then tried it with sugar/nitrate (50/50) but that was no better. It only worked with straight NC.

The layers must be at least a millimeter or more to sustain the combustion. Otherwise it does nothing without a constant
flame being held on it.
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A couple of seconds with a lighter got it burning well. It only takes a few seconds, burns quietly, with no smoke, and burns
underwater too.

I posted a RealVideo of it in my briefcase link below.

More testing is in order.

RTC March 28th, 2002, 12:10 AM
Say's the folder's empty?

Good testing btw.

FragmentedSanity March 28th, 2002, 05:04 AM
Lo again :)
The tests sound promising. All you need is a custom magnesium grip - lets see the piggies try and put that out :p
or would a zinc/sulfur/NC lacqure mix be stable enough to carry. at a guess Id say a mix like that would need to be put on
over a coat of straight lacquer - and then sealed with another layer. A treatment like that should work for wood too.
Anyways - Im in AUstralia (.au) and here I you cant even buy air rifle pellets without a licence anymore (which is why im so
interested in home made guns&ammmo - HUGE market potential :p
Oh and one other thing - I didnt just want to cast bullets - I wanted to make a whole plastic singleshot breech loader -
complete with rubberband powered hammer... Ill get around to it oneday.
gotta run
FS

nbk2000 March 28th, 2002, 10:14 AM
No, my folder's not empty, but apparently only I can access it. So I've uploaded the files to the FTP.

nbk2000 April 13th, 2002, 10:38 AM
I'll be damned! There's some bastard company selling guncamera sights now for only $1,500.

<img src="http://www.rahq.com/images/peek_a_boom/gun_in_hand_suspect_in_screen_sm.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.rahq.com/gun_camera.htm" target="_blank">http://www.rahq.com/gun_camera.htm</a>

Seems rather shoddily built to me, but it's starting to get cheaper. The version in my first PDF was $15,000. Though one has
to wonder just how greedy these bastards are.

Less than $100 for a camera, and under $100 for a pocket TV...who the fuck would BUY one at these prices?

But I'm sure sooner or later the idea will become common practice for both sides of the law. It's just going to take one
dramatic incident to get the idea out to the mainstream.

angelo April 25th, 2002, 06:08 AM
well those screens look massive, in your pdf did you not have a mounted screen at eye level?

nbk2000 April 25th, 2002, 03:38 PM
Yes, the original version used an eyescope instead of a TV screen. Those kind of viewers are available for about $500 now.
But the rugular TV version has the advantage of being much cheaper and available than an eyescope. Plus you can share the
view with your fellow crimies.

nbk2000 September 1st, 2002, 02:40 PM
Well, after a bit of a delay <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , I've got some test results in on the
pyrotechnic coating.

I made a solution of acetone and smokeless powder with a honey-like consistancy. I coated various objects to various
thicknesses and these are my observations:

Wood and plastic are unsuitable for coating. Neither one supports combustion of the coating except in extremely thick (several
millimeter) layers.

(My theory is that these materials act as an insulator that prevents the transmission of the heat formed by the combustion,
thus sqelching the flame propagation.)

I tried adding oxidizers (nitrates and chlorates) to the coating mix to increase combustion on these materials, but without
success.

Metals, on the other hand, support combustion wonderfully. A layer a little thicker than cellophane will burn up within a few
moments. The thicker the layer, the slower the combustion.

I've got a short video clip showing a steel knife with the handle coated, and the coating burning off in a couple seconds that
I'll post a link to later.

I had left fingerprints on the coated handle using gun oil and, after combustion, there was no traces left. :D

It may be that the addition of a metal powder like aluminium would serve the same purpose of conducting the heat to support
combustion. I leave that to others to try out.
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xoo1246 September 1st, 2002, 04:14 PM
Sounds interesting, sureley there must be something you can mix with the coating to improve it's reliability, magnesium or
maybe powdered glas. How would you provide igniton of the coating that is secure and reliable? E-match integrated in the
handle? And by the burning of this coating you might end up with residue on you that binds you to the weapon, a delay would
be nice.

nbk2000 September 1st, 2002, 06:00 PM
Given the way forensic science is progressing, I wouldn't be surprised. :mad:

Since the coating IS used as firearms propellant, it'd naturally leave nitrate GSR (Gun Shot Residue) on you if you were in
extremely close proximity to it while it was burning.

The ignition disk would provide a second or so delay...enough time to toss it before it started burning.

An electronic delay would be tres' chic. :) A battery (or supercapacitor) would pass a charge through an e-match after an IC
timer gives a short delay, of perhaps a minute, to avoid drawing attention to you with the resulting flames.

Problem is electronics and batteries have a bad habit of dying on you when you need them most...like when you're ditching a
bloodied weapon with the piggies hot on your ass! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> So I go with the KISS
principle of strictly pyrotechnic delays.

I don't think adding glass powder would be a good idea since it's easily identifiable, and nearly impossible to remove the
traces of it from your clothes and skin, even after repeated washing. But magnesium powder would definitely support
combustion. I'm thinking that wrapping a wood or plastic handle with aluminum foil might provide the needed heat
conductance. This would be very simple to do and cheap as dirt.

Furthur work will need to be done in enclosing the coating in an inert layer to prevent premature ignition from stray sparks.
Also, testing on whether or not the coating would auto-ignite from prolonged firing of the weapon. That could prove very nasty.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

nbk2000 September 2nd, 2002, 11:20 PM
Well, got the video uploaded.

Go to the ftp and download the RealVideo (.RM extension) file called "Pyro_Coating". It was in the uploads section, but I don't
know where it was moved to now (Ctrl_C?).

angelo September 3rd, 2002, 08:54 AM
Got it, its in the recent folder.

At first I thought it was a match that you were going to light the coating with then I realised it was the knife. :rolleyes:

by the way, awesome soundtrack

nbk2000 September 3rd, 2002, 09:38 AM
I just happened to have Metallica blasting at the time I made the video. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/
icon6.gif" alt=" - " />

Because of the music, you can't hear the coating burning. But you wouldn't have heard anything anyways since it burns
silently...no noise other than a very slight hiss. :)

nbk2000 September 11th, 2002, 08:45 AM
Well, in accordance with RTPB "Imitate, then innovate", I've imitated Trijicons Tri-power scope ((Tri-power refers to 3 light
sources, not magnification. Cost US$560) which uses a fiberoptic light gather, tritium lamp, battery backup, and an
undocumented cyalume minilamp option as a fourth light source...for not even $15. :D

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Cyalume_Night-sight_WM.jpg" alt=" - " />

Fiberoptic sight = $10

Tritium lamp = Free (Sample scammed from manufacturer :p )

Cyalume fishing lure light = $3 for two

LED + Battery = Free (from trashed electronics)

With the Traser lamp, there's no need for the cyalume light, but for the rest of you who don't have Trasers to use, you can use
the cyalume lure lights to illuminate the gunsight for up to 6 hours.

I left out the LED from the illustration since it's redundant.

A snap-in holds the cyalume light, which then snaps onto the fiberoptic rod to provide lighting for your sight. This way, you
have a cheap day/night sight for your guns that doesn't require any batteries or expensive equipment.

If you really want to be cheap, steal the fiberoptic sight from the sporting goods section, same with the lure lights, then use
electricans tape to hold the lure light onto the FO sight. Cost = free. Can't beat that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />

nbk2000 October 28th, 2002, 08:00 PM
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One of the problems inherent with long range accuracy of weapons is the human who is holding it. With the annoying habits of
breathing and hearts beating causing all kinds of erratic jumping around of the barrel, it's a miracle anything gets hit.

So, since there's image stabilization for camcorders, why can't they have active stabilization for personal weapons? I'm
thinking a ring at the end of a barrel contains very small reaction jets that use a propellant, microprocessor, and positional
sensors to detect and counteract the tiny tremors caused by involuntary body movement.

Because the tremors are very slight, the jet impulse doesn't have to be strong at all, just enough to dampen them out for a
couple of seconds while getting a final bead on a distant target.

Asger November 1st, 2002, 08:22 AM
Since you mention jets and stabilisation here, a thing comes into mind. I once saw some kind of 'antigravity' experiment
('Gravity defying' may be a more appropriate term)
I think it was, on the discovery channel. It was very neat but I haven't been able to find anything about it anywhere (google,
NASA homepage og Discovery homepg or here.)

They had a shoobox sized shuttle like thing floating in mid air. Now there was no hokus pokus about it because it was obvious
that the device was carried and stabilized by series of rapid jets or blasts fired in straight downward or diagonally downward
direction.
About 5 per second. They could move this thing sideways, up and down ofcourse and even rotate it by controlling the
explosions. At all times the device seemed very stable considering how it was carried. The explosions/jets gave out flashes
about 10-20 cm long and was obviously very visible and loud. It was remotley controlled but I don't remember if it was
wireless. There could have been a wire hanging down from it.
After a while, perhaps when it ran out of explosive energy, it fell into a net below and the crew appeared very happy with what
seemed a quite sucessfull test/experiment. This is how I recall what I saw.

Does any of you have any clue as to who did this and what it was... ?

If this post is malplaced I will copy it into some 'Antigravity' topic somewhere else here. And a moderator can delete this one.
Not to take any attention away from Your topics NBK.
Thanks

nbk2000 November 1st, 2002, 05:17 PM
I've seen what you're describing. It wasn't an anti-gravity device, it was a test of a "Star Wars" missile interceptor.

angelo November 3rd, 2002, 03:27 AM
I have also seen it. As far as I saw it was wireless.

But have also been unlucky looking for more info on it.

nbk2000 December 3rd, 2002, 01:57 PM
It seems blindingly obvious in hindsight.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glock%20Pistol%20Grip.jpg" alt=" - " />

It's well known to have inert "pistol" grips on the forend of a long gun to allow for both hands to stabilize it.

Problem, though, is that if you run out of ammo for the rifle/shotgun at a critical moment, you either have to switch to an
alternate weapon, or reload. Either one takes at least a couple of seconds...seconds which could get you killed.

Say you're room clearing after fragging a room. You go rushing in to finish up survivors when one pops up from behind a
couch. You aim your rifle and pull the trigger.

Click.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Ohhhhhsshhittttt....you now remember having burned up an entire mag
during the assualt, but didn't quite remember to change it. But the guy leveling the guage at you didn't. End game.

Well, with a (literal) pistol grip, you'd simply pull the trigger of the pistol that's already in your hand and aimed at the target.
ZERO transition time. :)

With the additional weight and length provide by the long arm, the pistol would have much greater accuracy and reduced recoil
than normal, providing for more effective range and rapidity of fire.

Plus, you could easily remove it to give to someone else, since it'd be in a mounting, not permanently built in.

Also, I've read how frangible bullets (like Mag-Safe or the sintered copper powder type) are capable of defeating many level
IIA ballistic vests, like the piggies wear.

Well, with metal powders, you can use CORBON swaging dies to compact them together into solid shapes. With the ability to
compress particles of different metals together, I don't see any reason why you couldn't make the bullets out a dense metal
like tungsten (for penetration) with toxic heavy metals like thallium, arsenic, or such.

Upon hitting the vest, the projectile begins to disintegrate, giving the vest fibers nothing to grab onto. As it does so, it frees
the toxic metals into the target in a finely divided state deep inside the organs.

:D

Agent Blak December 3rd, 2002, 11:10 PM
You could use a Tracer and an Mg Pressed with some SP(projectile). At close range it would burn going in and if it is in them it
will continue inside of you.
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One shot may not put me down hell it might just piss me off; I might be in the mood to go Tarintino... But if something is
burning in side of my chest, etc, my ass ain't gonna move much.

This could also be used to destroy evidence; Put a round in to a couch...

Zyklon_B December 4th, 2002, 12:51 AM
The Obvious fault in your "pistol" grip design is the use for a handgun that requires a slide to function, and the slide cannot
be used to brace the handgun to the rifle since it moves back and forth during the firing cycle. And even if you fixed that
problem by bracing onto the accessory rail, like found on the Glock shown above, your going to have the mount the handgun
lower from the forearm to help in cocking the firearm, and to prevent ejection problems.

The real solution is mounting a Masterkey shotgun system to the lower area of the rifle as demonstrated in this picture:

<img src="http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/kmc_masterkey.jpg" alt=" - " />

This is a milspec design that does work, and doesn't require any special homemade parts. And a shotgun lends to better
improvised rounds.

Just my view.

Agent Blak December 4th, 2002, 02:56 AM
I have had an Idea for years that was a Submachine Gun that sports a 12gauge(over under)for those up close and personal
situations.

where can you get that mod from?

nbk2000 December 4th, 2002, 05:23 AM
Several problems present with the masterkey for those who can legally own firearms (present company excluded, but who
doesn't care anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

One, extremely short barreled shotguns like that are considered "sawed-off" and require ATF approval as an AOW or DD. This
requires making it known to piggies that you have it.

Two, you only have a 3 or 4 shot capacity with such a short shotgun.

Three, you can't remove it from the rifle and use it seperately since how are you going to hold onto a 12 guage shotgun with
no handles?

Now, the shotgun does have uses. It can be used with frangible slugs to breach doors, fire tear gas, and such. However, as an
alternate weapon in the scenario described, I'd prefer the pistol grip. Less noise, recoil, better penetration, and other reasons.

Fear December 4th, 2002, 01:01 PM
Ask and google provides, presenting a solution:
<a href="http://www.lesbaer.com/compf.html" target="_blank">Here</a>
but I dont think its beefy enought to hold up to firing stress for our purposes. Cast might be to brittle, I would recomend
milling, but thats a lot more expensive and time consuming.

----------------------------
Fixed URL - Zaibatsu

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

chemwarrior December 4th, 2002, 06:03 PM
Hey, NBK, I was thinking about the light in the handle idea of yours. Im pretty certain that it wouldnt be too costly or too
difficult to add simple time actuated LED into the handle. All you would have to do is place a simple button on the handle
somewhere that when pressed down, doesnt allow electricity to flow through it. When dropped however, the circuit is completed
and then with the aid of a 555 timer and a capacitor, you could easily make it so th at it takes a few seconds to start flashing,
then after the initial flash, it could flash repeatedly like twice a second. And since the all the components are cheep, and for
the most part very durable, it could last a long time.

(Sorry about posting this so long after you came up with the idea.)

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: chemwarrior ]</small>

nbk2000 December 5th, 2002, 12:33 AM
Actually, you could use the rail system that's so popular nowadays to attach the pistol to the rifle.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/GlockGrip.jpg" alt=" - " />

The pistol grip rail adaptor attaches to the bottom rail of the rifle, and then the pistol is attached by it's rail to the adaptor.
The pistols slide is free to move, and the pistol itself is secured to the adaptor by a spring loaded detent that has to be
pushed to release the pistol.

:D

As for glow-grips, I've decided that the best place for the insert would be the front of the grip, where your finger wrap around it.

I'm assuming that the pistol would have regular tritium night sights, so you'd be able to spot it if you're anywhere to the rear
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of it. Whereas, from the front of it, you wouldn't be able to see the gun without having the insert somewhere visible from the
front.

Obviously, wherever it is placed can't be visible to an enemy, and the simplist way to keep it covered when in use is to have
your hand covering it. :)

Also, there's a lot of new GITD pigments that'll last for DAYS on just a few minutes exposure to light, so I'd likely go with a
GITD insert, rather than a traser, simply because it'd be much easier to make without any import hassles.

The traser style would be restricted to police/military (and me, of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /
> )because it's easier to get import permissions for products that aren't for use by the general (idiot) public.

Agent Blak December 5th, 2002, 04:08 PM
I am not trying to nit pick here but you pistol Diagram appears to lack support.

I would say the best way to mount it would envolve mountining to the frame of the pistol the pistol. These envolve Drilling and
reaming for the pins or drilling and tapping it you wish to use ready rod for the job.

You say that you would want to be able to give the weapon to another. in that case I would suggest a pin desgin.

As for the legality of a system of this sort...lol. The feds would be just tickled pink as you tried to register it and all they could
picture in there mind is an urban Ruby Ridge or Waco... that goes bad for them.

nbk2000 December 5th, 2002, 05:06 PM
There'd be nothing illegal about it at all. After all, it'd be a simple piece of machined aluminum. If you can legally own both
components, then joining them together wouldn't make them illegal.

As for support, the polymer frame of a Glock is very strong. More than adequate for using as a rifle grip. The important thing
would be holding the pistol in place in the grip mount. That's easily done since there'd be a simple detent lock that'd mate up
with the locking notch all pictacany rail systems have. :)

Zerstoren Sie April 7th, 2003, 04:03 PM
Well.. first post, hopefully not too lame.

I've been kicking this idea around for while now. Basically, it's a way to convert a semi-auto into an auto without trigger
assembly modification. If anyone has a full auto paintball gun, you may notice how it functions. A seloniod is being controlled
by a small circuit board with a set of dip switches, these switches control the rate of fire and burst. Well, the idea is to take the
electronics out of the paintball gun and use the selonoid in place of your finger on your semi-auto. The electronics could be
fastened to the butt of the gun. All one would need is a power source and some way to mount the seloniod. Firing the gun
would then be done through the small tact switch which came from the paintball gun. If one needed the gun to be normal
again, they would simply take the electronics off. One interesting thing about the electronics in the painball guns is that they
can be configured to do 3 and 6 shot burst, full auto, semi-auto, and the rate of fire can be modified. One problem i see
though with this design is the relative strength of the seloniod. It may not have enough power to pull the trigger. The solution
is fairly simple, in theory. Simply remove that seloniod and put in a relay, then connect the output of the relay to a bigger
seloniod and of course a power source. Well, generally that's about it. Hopefully this could be something of use. Also, if
anyone has tried this, i'd love to hear the results.

A43tg37 April 7th, 2003, 05:04 PM
Zerstoren,

I'm not 100% sure about this, but wouldn't it be quite illegal (in the U.S. anyhow) to use a device like that on a trigger, as it
could fire more than one shot at time while the switch was being held down (and I know the switch isn't actually the trigger per
se, but ATF won't care...they've already decided that a Gatling gun-modification for a 10-22 is fine if hand cranked, but illegal
if the manual cranking power is replaced by a motor that's allowed to make the crank fire more than one shot for each time
the switch is held closed) and that would qualify it as a "full auto"? All of the current "trigger switches" either use a cam,
reciprocating spring-type device, or a Gatling-style crank, but they all at least move your finger back and forth so only one
shot is ostensibly fired with each pull of the trigger, and so have been ruled legal. Of course, this may be legal in other
countries, and for all of us here who don't give a crap about the gun laws anyway, it's a fairly good idea. Oh, and wouldn't it
have to be a pretty heavy duty solenoid to be able to perform this function effectively? Most of the solendoids I've seen are
designed to move the rod in them back and forth a few times a second at most, and I know that if a relay is wired to open
and close itself rapidly for anything more than a short period of time, it drastically cuts it's life span. Since the solenoid will be
doing essentially the same thing, wouldn't this also have to be considered when designing this trigger switch (i.e. some
provision for fairly easy replacement of the solenoid)?

Zerstoren Sie April 8th, 2003, 10:03 AM
Well, strangely enough, I was not aware of the idea of placing a cam on a crank for a firing mechanism. That should of been
something that I should have considered before coming up with an idea so complex. Though I do think that using elecronics
does have its advantages. As for a low life on relays, a solid state relay could be used, although a bit more expensive, it
would last. As for the soleniod, one would have to search to find a good one for the job. One of my concerns with the soleniod
was whether it would be able to pull the trigger with enough power. A solution might be to make your own. I was thinking that if
you were to put a magnet on the piston, in a way it wouldn't get damgaged, of course. It might be possible to increase the
displacement, and also the speed at which it can act.
Oh, and as for legal issues, I am aware about the laws in the U.S. against such a device. Because of such laws, I am not
planning to build one. It's just an idea I've had in my head for a while.

rjche April 11th, 2003, 11:07 AM
All my mission critical items have an infrared only scotchlight reflector strip glued on them so they shine only when viewed by
my ir illuminator on the NV scope. I have lost stuff before this was adopted by it dropping off my person, never to be found
again in daylight.
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The way to make IR only bicycle reflector tape which is usually white, buy both red and green clear gift wrapping cellophane.
Glue both a red and a green layer over the scotch tape and visible light will no longer reflect but IR will.

If you get red scotch tape you only need to add the green layer.

With this I can scan at night for anything I dropped with the NV and its illuminator. Keys for example light up like a bicycle
reflector to the NV, but are not visible to a powerful spotlight. You must put reflectors on several sides so you can see it no
matter how it falls. for many objects a thin (1/8 inch) strip wrapped around the thing will leave part of the tape visible at all
positions.

Yes other people scanning their NV with ir illuminator will see the tape, but not if its in the pocket where it belongs. When out
and using it your own NV will show anybody using ir illuminator before you unzip your tape markered equipment. He who
shines an IR illuminator looks to other NV like a flashlight does to ordinary vision. Not something to do in a tactical situation,
but for the rough travel to get to the tactical place, equipment lost can mean serious problems if not found. Lost a handi talky
once when going through brush, because its strap hook failed and brush peeled it off without my noticing.

Big disaster. No way to tell at what point of the mile trip it came off, and leaves were deep so its weight had partially burried it
when found. Fortunately it was ON, meaning I could use another radio, and my electronic ears to listen for the tone sent to it
and was able to locate it after a few hours.

That had to be done before the lost radio's battery went down, so it was a high priority thing. My radios now all have an IR
reflector strip on them.

nbk2000 May 12th, 2003, 01:55 AM
I've been noticing the trend of suppressors being featured quite often in most of the piggie oriented gun magazines.

The purpose of using suppressors in the police context is to prevent hearing loss from gunshot noise and flash blindness in
dark rooms.

To my way of thinking, the very opposite of this would be useful for the person facing the cops, inside a building.

While piggies are running around sans hearing protection, you've got on your electronic earmuffs, and electro-optical shutter
goggles (AKA electronic welding googles)

By deliberately altering your firearm to use a powder load that will produce maximum muzzle flash, and short barrels to
increase muzzle blast, you've effectively turned your firearm into a multi-shot stun grenade.

:)

Every pull of the trigger would pound the piggies senses with 170+ decibels of noise, plus hundreds of lumens of light (as well
as the lead), while your senses are protected.

This could also be an advantage when attacking someone dangerous, since you'll be firing the first shot anyways, so why not
combine the advantage of a surprise attack with a sense-stunning blast? This would not only disorient the target, making his
counter-attack less likely/successful, but would have the added benefit of disorienting anyone else nearby who you may not be
aware of.

nbk2000 February 5th, 2006, 01:54 AM
Seems some thieving bastards stole my idea for a (literal) pistol grip! :mad:

Yet another example of "It takes money to make money". :(

Jacks Complete February 5th, 2006, 12:51 PM
That's an air taser, isn't it? Where did you find the picture?

Also, the trigger cam thing is surely exactly what the "Hellfire" trigger conversion was for? They were all the rage many years
ago, but I never managed to get one. Sure must be a heck of a lot of them kicking about the place over there.

xyz February 6th, 2006, 11:07 PM
The underbarrel mounting of pistols/small smgs/small shotguns has been around for a few years at least. I saw a picture of
an M11/9 mounted underneath a Striker 12 on the site of a US gunsmith a few years back.

There's also a company that makes an underbarrel 12 gauge for the AR platform, I can't remember if it's pump or semi but it
feeds from box magazines. I should be able to get the specifics of it if anyone wants.

nbk2000 February 8th, 2006, 12:31 AM
There have been 'pistol' grip forends for many years, but only in the last year or two has anyone made a grip that uses a REAL
pistol. Oh, and since I posted the idea in '00 or '01, if someone else made them "a few years ago", that could be 5 years ago
and still be AFTER me. :p

JC:

Yes, that's an X26 TASER, mounted on the rifle. I found the pic on the /k/ board at www.4chan.org

Ropik February 8th, 2006, 11:21 AM
xyz: If you think about the same weapon as me, then it is pump action with a RIS mount for attaching. Masterkey it is called
IIRC.
NBK: How would you produce maximum muzzle flash? Powdered metals additive would probably send pressure through the
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roof(or barrel), if there isn't some metal which I'm not aware of, and the pressure curve would be also much sharper,
producing less-than-optimal bullet flight characterictics, but if inside a building, it is probably ceasing to matter as much as in
open space. But, I saw some patent years ago, which decribed gun with an attached camera. I think there was some note that
"ammo with powder charge altered for maximum muzzle flash, substituting photobulb, may be used for nigttime" or
something similar. I cannot recall if there was some link or name of other patent or comp or whatever...
BTW, it is good EWF is back agin. I was afraid these eDefence punks shut it for good...

bipolar February 9th, 2006, 03:57 AM
You can produce a large muzzle blast by either getting a barrel for your gun with a built in compensator/muzzle brake or one
that screws on the a threaded barrel. Glocks come in compensated models. I would probably rather just throw a small flash
bang instead.

Jacks Complete February 11th, 2006, 07:29 PM
A slow powder from a short barrel will give an impressive flash. The flip side is a fast powder round from a long barrel, which
reduces the flash as the powder is completely burned and cooled a lot before the bullet exits.

THAT Dude February 23rd, 2006, 07:40 PM
Unforunately the "pistol grip" would probably be classed as a short barreld rifle
due to the butstock on the rifle. But you could just use a standard pistol grip on your rifle if you wanted to stay legal. If you
had a Ruger Rimfire Autoloading Pistol style handgun mounting would be simplified.

-=HeX=- April 21st, 2008, 06:15 PM
Sorry to bring up am old topic, however I have tried I few of there gun improvements on a couple of my mates airsoft guns
and they have been more than pleased. I also have an idea for a simple gun improvement.

I first tested the traser in the pistol grip trick. I machined I machined into the pistol grip of a glock 18c blowback gas powered
AEG. (It has a gas powered blowback operating system and batteries.)

My friend tried it out in the dark during a game and found out that he could see it at 20 meters he he dropped it. Ha also said
that when he was holding it it never compromised him once.

Next I, mounted an underslung picatinny rail on a G-36 AEG. I then put a rail on the top of the glock as part of a custom rig
thingy (Ill take a photo of it) and used it to connect it to the rifles rail. This was the pistol grip concept.

In a CQB scenario ha was again pleased. When his rifle ran out he was able to keep shooting until he was out of the shit. It
also improved stability of aim over long ranges. *Tbc*

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > Drum Fed Shotgun Conversion Kit

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nbk2000 June 29th, 2001, 11:32 AM
6 & 10 rounds in a detachable magazine for the Mossberg 12 guages.

http://www.knoxx.com/product/sidewinder.html

Not an improvised weapon, but a nifty add-on for those fortunate enough to be able to have a shotgun. They're working on
conversions for the 870 too.

With a drum, even a super short shotgun that'll fit under a coat can have firepower. Add a duckbill choke and dragon rounds
and you got a serious room sweeper.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Bitter June 29th, 2001, 04:08 PM
I wish I knew how pump shotguns worked in the first place...

Looks good, mind you.

Pyro June 29th, 2001, 11:41 PM
Excellent post NBK, thanks.

AR-15 Man June 30th, 2001, 12:15 AM
That would be a nice add on to my Mossburg shotgun. Cheaper than a Saiga 12 (AK shotgun). My only concern would be how it
reliable it feeds. It is hard enough to clear a jam out of a rifle even worse out of a shotgun. Well atleast it would make
changing from buckshot to slugs a lot easier. I might just have to order this after I get my reloading set. But looking at the
hype of the company's other stuff like claiming "Even beginner shooters could consistently hit a 12 inch gong at 25 yards with
Buckshot--one-handed" with there special stock. Sounds like they hype up their products or bullshit the tests by using
buckshot in those 1 3/4 rounds.

nbk2000 July 1st, 2001, 06:37 PM
When I saw the drum, I thought "This would go great with a super shorty shotgun".

http://www.travellerguns.com/shotguns/shotgun_shorty.gif

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Small enough to fit under a coat, several 6 round stick mags each loaded with different ammo like flamethrowers, tear gas,
flechettes, buck, etc.

Great for hold ups and hits.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

AR-15 Man July 1st, 2001, 06:57 PM
What would be really nice is a Vang Comp barrel on that shorty. It should then hold buckshot groups out to 40 yards. The
Vang Comp barrel has a very tight choke. But for hold up type sitations you need either a SMG or a carbine that you can fire
one handed.

nbk2000 July 1st, 2001, 11:27 PM
You can always add a duckbill choke to scatter shot in a nice horizontial spread parrallel to the ground. That and the short
barrel insures a nice wide spread, very hard to miss. Something like this isn't a long range weapon, it's strictly room ranged.

AR-15 Man July 2nd, 2001, 01:18 AM
That and blowing off locks are for what something like that is for. It is a specialized tool. Some people take the shotgun as
the all purpose weapon. I just wanted people to realise it's limitations. Plus the fact something like this must be in a team
situation. You won't be able to fire it single handed or if you can you won't be able to reload it. That is very important for tasks
that need you in action other than a firefight.
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PYRO500 July 2nd, 2001, 02:43 AM
This shotgun would be more useful under a coat if it was on a kind of sling that kept it just below your arm so it can be
concealed and pulled out just when you need it. Also a sling would allow you to reload it easyer and you could allow you to dso
other things than shoot, I beleve with a properly lengthed sling it would make police rushing tactics less effective and more
dangerous to everyone (if you are at that stage you are pretty much fucked anywaye) it would also make unarmed rushing
tactics less applicable too.

AR-15 Man July 3rd, 2001, 01:26 PM
Yea I had forgot about the attached sling. *I should of remembered that cause I have on my tec-9. *My last and final grip
about a shotgun like this is no body amour penetration. *Yea slugs will cause blunt trauma but with such a short weapon how
can aim the weapon. *And to control it's large shot pattern you would probably have had to put a choke that won't allow slugs.
*As I said it is a special tool and requires a team effort. *It is best for the entry people. Then they switch to better weapons
that have been stored. *

PYRO500 July 3rd, 2001, 08:12 PM
if you aim it at neck or knee level you dont have to worry much about body armour

AR-15 Man July 3rd, 2001, 11:53 PM
Yea of coarse you can do that but that weapon makes it more difficult because it is harder to aim and remember they have
gun to. Trust me I have been trying with my Mossburg pistol grip. It isn't the fastest way to aquire a target. That is why I
promote the idea of having a carbine or SMG along with you. That would offer you higher rate of fire. Plus if you are facing
guys with armor more than likely he has a buddy. That is why your rate of fire is important. I am not saying shotguns are
horrible in CQB but they have to be backed up. Heck a glock with a stock would be a good option. Epecially the 10mm Glocks.
10mm is such a hot round. Or even cheaper and better is a CZ-52 pistol. It's 7.62x25 round is very hot and will penetrate
body armor. The shotgun a long with one of these makes a great CQB combination. Just look at any CQB team like SWAT.
They use a pistol for point man, shotgun for breecher and MP-5's or some shorter barreled AR for the rest.

PYRO500 July 4th, 2001, 12:04 AM
what about a vertical choke? a line of lead from head to crotch, it wouldonly take out one person but it would probably hit an
unprotected area even if a bullet proof vest has one of those tabs that tucks into your pants to protect your crotch I dont think
it'll feel too good.

AR-15 Man July 4th, 2001, 11:48 AM
The vertical choke would be good. As I am trying to say the shotgun would have it's limitations. It isn't imposible to take
somone out who has body armor. Just not easy. It is easy to do on the paper but when they start blasting with their MP-5 and
the lead is flying it isn't so easy. A carbine you can aim under stress. Well alteast better than a short pistol griped shotgun. I
train under stress with the carbine but can't simulate the complete adrenline rush you get. Well I can get close to the rush with
some "supplements". There is no way of safely getting away with just the shotgun. If you don't beleive me go to an IDPA
event. See if the shooters in CQB prefer the shotgun or carbine. Try going through the coarse with a pistol gripped shotgun
only taking headshots. Then try it with a carbine. You will feel more confident in the carbine. The conclusion you will come to is
that the shotgun is good for the entry man entering a room.

PYRO500 July 4th, 2001, 03:31 PM
If you want the adrenaline rush you get in real battles, play paintball. you could also drink seven or eight cokes http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I just did.

AR-15 Man July 5th, 2001, 12:46 AM
Yea I use to play paintball but I don't get that rush anymore and hurts realism in CQB training. But for my rush I use
Thermicore CRT and Andros 7. They are legal supplements. I think they work great.

nbk2000 July 5th, 2001, 03:58 AM
Flechettes can penetrate soft body armor. Also there's the shotshells shown in my PDF that use hardened steel quarter round
sections that will also shred vests. And point blank from a flamethrower round has got to hurt.

I believe the reason the IDPA people use the carbine instead of a shotgun is because they'll get points deducted if any
"hostage" targets get hit by a stray bullet or pellet. With this you're not going to get a tight group, it's going to be nice and
wide, which is good. And at room range you're going to be hard pressed to miss with a scattergun.

I would certainly hope that anyone who went through the expense of making a gun like this would go through the effort to
learn how to use it properly.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

AR-15 Man July 5th, 2001, 04:07 PM
NBK there are different events. Some involve hostages. Some are just blasting the bad guys. Main reason is you can fire and
reacquire a target out of a carbine a lot faster than a shotgun. Fleclettes lose speed fast so they aren't recommended for
ranges where buckshot can be used. You are right about the room range you won't miss. But if they are armed you will be in
trouble unless you have back up. Try to get the follow up shot in about 1 and a half secs to neck or head. It is hard but can be
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done. And to your point about people going to the expense would train with it. Look at the North Hollywood shot out. Those
guys didn't hit crap. Well, neither did the pigs but most cops can't shoot anyway. And you would be suprised how many people
in the patriot movement have expensive AKs, H&Ks, AR-15's, FN-FALs and M1As and don't practice one bit. Hell I practice
almost every day on mag changes on at least one of my weapons.

nbk2000 July 6th, 2001, 12:01 AM
The LA bank robbers hit 15 people so they certainly hit something! But the problem was they used AP bullets which just
whizzed through the targets leaving nice clean holes. If they used hollowpoints there'd be a lot of dead people.

Ammo selection, not marksmanship, was the problem.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Bitter July 6th, 2001, 04:37 PM
Is it possible to turn an ordinary round-nosed lead into a hollow-point ? Would a shallow cut with a drill bit work do you think ?
Or how about a deeper cut with a steel-core inserted in the hole ?

Anthony July 6th, 2001, 08:45 PM
You can get little miniture lathe machines that make hollow points out of regular rounds. Or maybe just cut a cross into the
head of the bullet, you'd have to experiment to make sure they didn't break up in the barrel though.

AR-15 Man July 6th, 2001, 09:10 PM
Look at this shotgun rig http://www.stellarrigs.com/Stellar_Shotgun_Rig.html would be perfect for this. They also offer ones for
bullpups, and M11s in .380. The M11 set up is what I have for my Tec. NBK, I didn't know they were using AP ammo. Standard
steel core FMJ ammo is sometimes called the most humane bullet. So if it was AP it would be even more clean. But still 15
wounded unless they wounded to make people have to take care of them. Who knows? Bitter, You could take lead target
loads and make them into Dun-Duns by taking a knife and hammer and making an X in it.

Heavy Recoil July 7th, 2001, 01:06 AM
nice rig, I think I know what I want for antichristmas.
Actually I think it might be better on a bullpup semi
Isnt that dum-dum, and if it is, I thought that was a copper striped bullet

------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by Heavy Recoil (edited July 17, 2001).]

nbk2000 July 7th, 2001, 07:48 PM
Found this site with info about another drum fed assualt shotgun. Unfortunately it's in finnish.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

AR-15 Man July 7th, 2001, 08:32 PM
They designed it off the AR-15 appearance. Also looks like the bolt goes back into the stock like an AR-15. That would cut
down on recoil big time. But alas I doubt any exist in the good ole US of A. Maybe I can settle on a SPAS-12. That kinda looks
like an AR.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 8th, 2001, 05:25 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nbk2000:
Found this site with info about another drum fed assualt shotgun. Unfortunately it's in finnish.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

</font>

I can tell what the article says:

The ASG is an assault shotgun developed and built by gunsmith Maxwell G. Atchisson.

It is not a Finnish weapon. Only the article is in Finnish because the author is Finnish(he writes in English too but that article
has never been published in English).

Caliber: 12 /70 mm
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Load: Mini-Magnum/ Mark 5
Year of production: 1972
Degree of manufacture: hand-made (of course not, machined http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)
Quantity produced: Unknown. Possibly only 1 piece
Principle of operation: like in an ordinary SMG, shooting from open-bolt position, but system BECKER/SEMAG/OERLIKON
hammer strikes before the round has fully entered the chamber
Modes of Fire: Semi-auto & Full Auto selector.
ROF: With shotshells 360 rounds per minute. With slugs about 380 rounds per minute.
Choke and caliber: Cylinder bore 18.50 mm

Full length: 991 mm
Barrel lenght: 457 mm (18") = "The MORGENTHAU minimum"
Weight: Without an attached magazine 5.2 kg
With an empty 20-round drum 6.1 kg
With a full drum magazine 7.3 kg
With a full 5-round clip 5.8

The standard load: Plastic shell, shot 42.5 grams 00 Buck or 4 Buck.

Bolt's weight: 1360 grams
Magazines: 20-rounds drum and 5-rounds clip

Sights: diopter rear sight. Adjustable front sight. Sights are normally adjusted at 91.4 meters.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 8th, 2001, 05:31 PM
Forgot to mention: the trigger mechanism is from a Browning M1918 BAR LMG, the pistol grip is same than in the Thompson
SMG (surplus grips) and the front grip is borrowed from an AR-15 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

AR-15 Man July 9th, 2001, 12:16 AM
Well with all those surplus parts being used that means someone could probably make one in the US. I mean plenty of
shotgun barrels, and those parts. I would say the recoil wouldn't be so bad because looks like it has a long spring that takes
up a lot of it. Wonder if any blueprints still exist? But alas why fool with that when the SAIGA 12 is avaible. All that takes is
modifying mags.

SawedOff8gaugeman July 14th, 2001, 11:09 AM
Yeah, recoil can't be very bad... It says the whole 20 rounds could be fired in one burst as fully controlled fire http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif

SawedOff8gaugeman August 12th, 2001, 12:54 PM
Today I got to know the Saiga 12 is available in Finland too. Hooray!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gifhttp:/
/theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

But that super shorty thing is unluckily considered an "any other weapon" here. Why so, you might ask. That's because "any
other weapons", especially that kind of, are amongst the most difficult things to get license for. http://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/frown.gif

You lucky Americans have a positive meaning for "AOW" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

AR-15 Man August 12th, 2001, 03:49 PM
Well super shorty shotguns are considered AOWs in the US too. But I think getting one is the US is easier. That is interesting
that you can get the SAIGA 12. Is it the version with pistol grip and folding stock? Can you all get the New Benelli M4 shotgun?
Isn't avaible to use mere civies in the US.

[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited August 12, 2001).]

SawedOff8gaugeman August 14th, 2001, 03:09 PM
The both versions, but mostly the non-folding model. Getting the folding one can be tricky. It depends where you live, and
what kind of firearms you already own and of course you need more and/or better reasons. Quite stupid because the Saiga 12
folding-stock cannot be operated when the stock is folded. And of course stupid in any case http://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/mad.gif And the Saiga 12 may of course get banned any moment. There are much antigun ideologies going on
now http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

I don't know about the Benelli but possibly... gonna find out some day.

Edit: I'm not sure but I believe overriding the stock-folding-safety can be very easy...

[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited August 14, 2001).]

AR-15 Man August 14th, 2001, 03:31 PM
Well if you are a US Piggy or an FFL you can get the folding stock version that can fire folded. That locking safety one isn't
seen much over here. Oh yea can you all get hi cap mags for it like over 5 rds? I have seen LE only 7 rd mags. Also some
custom 10 rd mags.

SawedOff8gaugeman August 15th, 2001, 01:58 PM
There is one type of restriction which does not apply here yet. There are no rules on magazine capacity.
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The gun comes with 2 pcs 5-rd mags and Full, Mod/Imp and Cyl. chokes. There are also 7 -rd mags for sale. That's no big
good news: hunting/game act: You cannot hunt with it if you are carrying the original magazines, because WHEN YOU ARE
HUNTING, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CARRY MAGS FOR SEMIAUTO WEAPONS WHICH HOLD MORE THAN 2 ROUNDS!! 2
ROUNDS http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif That's why 2-round mags are also sold http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif I'm getting really pissed... ... ...

nbk2000 August 18th, 2001, 06:37 AM
Whatever the case may be, I guarantee you that these type of weapon add ons will be banned sooner rather than later. As
soon as some politician (thinking fiendstein) gets wind of them, they'll be screaming about "Assault Magazines" and how they
don't have any "legitimate sporting purpose".

If I remember correctly, the founders didn't write the constitutional right to bear arms to protect the sporting arms industry,
they wrote it to protect the people from domestic tyrants.

Anyways, get them while you can cause they won't last long. Same thing with body armor, 3rd Gen. NVD, .50 rifles, and all
other such goodies that make you comparable to the piggies.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

AR-15 Man August 18th, 2001, 02:14 PM
Yea guys stock piling if you can is a very good idea. Even if you don't have a lot of money less than 100 bucks you can get a
Turk Mauser with around 480 rounds of ammo. Just buy everything you can. Get a good rifle then night vision then body
armor. Well depending on your situation you might wanna get body armor first. But remember agile, mobile and hostile.

BeerWolf September 21st, 2006, 05:22 PM
Knoxx has just discontinued this magazine system.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Company/News.htm

Some kits still available, so grab them while you can.

(edited for spelling)

5_seven September 21st, 2006, 07:34 PM
Looks cool, I like it cause, well, It looks like an easy build if you can get the parts, all you really need to do is cut a tube for a
receiver, and possibly make a bolt, but I suppose you could find one and modify the mag (if nessacary). I was thinking it
would be bad ass in a bullpup configuration.

Gunjack September 22nd, 2006, 03:37 PM
Sawedoff8gaugeman, doesn't the saiga 12 7 round mag hold 9 rounds?
I bought them under the name " 8 round mag" but i tried to insert 9 rounds and it worked.
The only problem is that in order to change the mag , the action has to be open, but the saiga has no "last round hold open
device" that does the job automatic.
And the saiga 12s exp-01 is able to shoot with a collapsed stock.

oxbeast September 23rd, 2006, 07:23 AM
Sadly the Sidewinder was only ever patent pending. No technical drawings of the drum mag available.

BeerWolf September 23rd, 2006, 01:26 PM
Sadly the Sidewinder was only ever patent pending. No technical drawings of the drum mag available.

You can get patent pending drawings.
US pending Patent 5456153 covers the siderwinder system.
US PP 5600083 covers earlier work on the system.

And some other shotgun drum setups (most require a custom receiver to work:
US Patent 6032395
US Patent 4487103
US Patent 5561258
US Patent 5771620

(edited for my usual spelling errors)

5_seven September 23rd, 2006, 11:07 PM
But alas why fool with that when the SAIGA 12 is avaible.

Because not all people have access to the Saiga, and you can build this weapon in a short time, meaning it isn't registered.
Plus, the Saiga's just a modified ak 47 (74?), big deal, this guy's an original, despite the fact that it's made from pre-
manufactured parts, that is.
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Marmaloon September 24th, 2006, 12:08 PM
In Canada we can't have a Saiga(Bastages!) since the Knoxx Industries unit is kaput, that would leave the Valtro PM-5, but I
have heard even these are no longer being made. I did not get a response on this from Valtro USA when I emailed them
about a month ago. I opted to get a Remington 870 instead, too bad they didn't make a box magazine kit for these.

I have heard (on the Valtro) that if you cycle the action very positively and don't press the trigger before the bolt/carrier is fully
home, they work good, but if you pull the trigger before the action is fully closed, the hammer will drop and you will have to
eject the unfired shell to clear. I would like to see a box magazine kit for the Ithaca 37. That would be a bad puppy. We can't
have large box/drum magazines on semi auto shotguns up here, but you can have an extended tube mag on an auto.*I'm
talking about at the range, not hunting, hunting is 2 shots in the mag. It does not have to make sense, it's Government
Policy.

oxbeast September 25th, 2006, 07:22 AM
BeerWolf thank you for that info.

The patents you reference give the full developmental history of the Sidewinder unit.

The Atchisson drum mag (Also in the patents above) is a nice design and would possibly be workable on the Holmes pump or
semi-auto shotgun designs.

Atchisson had some very interesting designs for weapons and accesories, his patents make for very interesting reading.

BeerWolf September 25th, 2006, 11:58 PM
Oxbeast- glad it helped.

One can learn a lot just by putting Max Atchisson's name in the patent search engine.
The man invented all sorts of amazing stuff in the firearms field. I have spent hours looking at his patent drawings.

(edited for my crummy typing)

oxbeast September 26th, 2006, 07:12 AM
One can learn a lot just by putting Max Atchisson's name in the patent search engine.
The man invented all sorts of amazing stuff in the firearms field. I have spent hours looking at his patent drawings.

US Patent 4553469 which details his magazine fed shotgun should be of use to anyone who is generally interested in
detachable magazine shotguns.

The concept he used for the feed mechanism was pretty innovative.

nbk2000 September 26th, 2006, 07:28 AM
The AA12 Automatic Shotgun (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=892) is based on an
Atchisson design that they bought the rights to after he died.

oxbeast September 26th, 2006, 07:52 AM
Very interesting SOF article found from the link in NBK's above post.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741

Shows nice pictures and test results of the AA12.

Back in the 80's some Germans tried to get the South Africans interested in the Atchisson prototypes. Tests were very
impressive but the drum mag wasn't quite as reliable as would have been liked. Also the SA produced Striker was a cheaper
throw-away option at the time.

InfernoMDM December 22nd, 2006, 08:57 AM
KNOXX as a company is good to go. I have one of the stocks and it is outstanding. Several SWAT guys bought the sidewinder
system and liked it. They like the 8 round magazines instead of drums. It allowed for a quick switch of rounds more easily.
Such as breaching rounds to slugs or 00 buck.

Too bad they have halted production it was gaining popularity, however from the sounds of it they have something new coming
online soon.

Cobalt.45 December 23rd, 2006, 09:48 AM
A Stevens Model 58 is a box magazine fed 12 gauge.

It's biggest limitation is rate of fire due to being a bolt action. But it's hell for strong, and surprisingly light. Recoil is very
manageable, due to it being chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

While these guns aren't found everywhere, they should be affordable when you do find one.

Fitting it with a drum would be a possibility, as well as a magazine modified for high capacity. That would be very doable.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > cetme .30 8, G3, HK91

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View Full Version : cetme .308, G3, HK91

phyrelord March 21st, 2003, 06:42 PM
c a n p a r t s b e p u r c h a s e d o r m a d e t o m a k e t h e c e m te .308 full au to. Can the lower grip assem bly be purchased for an hk91 a n d
will it fit on a cetm e. Another thing i was wondering is whether or not the collapsible stocks for the hk91 will also fit on a cetm e.
Thanks.

HypersonicGamer March 27th, 2003, 10:34 AM
Although I m ight not be very specific, I think I am answering the general questions.

1 . T h e r e a r e l o a d s o f s u r p l u s s e m i-auto CETMEs, but obviously they cannot be converted to be full-auto legally. Of course it
c a n b e m ade full-auto somehow - a part could be physically m ade for virtually any firearm and con verted to be full auto, but
you might need a willing m achinist (I wouldn't though, you'll get put in the slamm er for a while if they catch you) - but I am
not sure if you could buy a part for it, I m ostly see them for AR -15 type weapons and AK type weapons.

2. EDIT: No, the grip cannot be interchanged. I had thought so before, but I rem e m bered the correct interchangability. Just
l i k e a M a u s e r s , t h e y a r e t h e s a m e design, the parts just don't interchange, I guess they have individual serials on them. The
HK91 mags fit in a CETME, but not vice-versa.

3 . I b e l i e v e s o , b u t r e m e m ber, you can't put a collapsib le stock on a post-ban we apon...I just remem bered this damn rule :( .

The CETME/G3/HK91 platform is basically the sam e a n d HK did very little (if any) modifications (I think the sights were
tweaked) to their line of CETME based assault rifles.

<sm all>[ March 27, 2 0 0 3 , 0 7 : 4 5 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : H y p e r s o n i c G a m er ]</small>

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > Full auto behaviour, a technical idea

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View Full Version : Full auto behaviour, a technical idea

BlackFalcoN July 18th, 2006, 10:58 PM
Lately I've been dreaming about creating a way to convert a semi-auto weapon into full-auto behaviour, without having to modify/replace any mechanical parts of the weapon.

A semi-auto does the firing/loading sequence for the firer almost as quick as he can pull the trigger, so squeezing the trigger really-really fast, should result in really really much bullets leaving the muzzle.
Thus, a device that could squeeze the trigger much faster than a standard Mark1 human finger, would be the solution to achieve 'full auto' fire ( technically it's not full-auto, since every pin strike has to be achieved
by pulling the trigger -- but the result at the muzzle end /target is the same :D )

Since Google is my friend, I found out that such a device already existed, called the 'GAT Trigger System'.

This basically is a device that is clamped on the trigger guard of the weapon and that pulls the trigger for the user.
The user just has to rotate a crank on the side of the device, which should result in four trigger squeezes for every rotation made by the user. ( inspired by the old Gattling Gun)

A video of the device can be seen here: http://www.gungarage.com/hellfireggr.wmv ( 2:40 - 4:10 )
( Just ignore all the other (crap?) products and sales-talk in the video :rolleyes: )

Since insane trigger-pulling is replaced by insane crank-rotating, (resulting in inaccurate fire, since both hands should grip the gun to deliver accurate fire IMHO :confused: ) I was wondering if it would be possible
to replace the crank wheel on the side by a pulley (gear without teeth), and rotate the pulley with a small motor attached under the GAT-system. (connecting the two by means of a belt). The motor would be
started/stopped by a pressure switch, that could be mounted in the grip of the gun.

A visualisation made in MS PBrush of this idea can be found here:
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7495/gat1qe2.jpg

In this example, I'm using a small cheap 12 volt, 1800 rpm motor, which transfers it's rotation power to the GAT System via a 1:6 pulley setup ( resulting in 300 rpm on the GAT -- but since every rotation is four
trigger pulls, that would theoretically allow the trigger to be pulled at 1200 pulls per minute )

If this idea is technically doable, then it would allow to convert any semi-automatic weapon (pistol, a civilian semi-only rifle, shotgun, ... ) into full-auto behaviour in just minutes, without having to alter the
internals of the weapon in any way.
The weapon will still allow to be used in single shot mode on the spot, requiring you only to pull the trigger as before (instead of pressing the full-auto pressure switch)

However, I would like some input and advice in this design.

1) Is there anyone who has experience with the unmodified GAT-unit ? Any review, comment would be useful
(I'm not talking about other trigger systems made by the same manufacturer, which are considered to be pieces of shite by most reviews I read on them. )

2) Will the GAT-System allow this modification ?
I can only watch the GAT on pictures on the internet, I'm fairly certain the crank is attached to the unit by means of a nut that can be unscrewed. Is this really the case ?

3) How much force is required to rotate the crank ?
Would it be more/less than the trigger pull (lbs) of the gun ?
( Since I see t he cr ank being turned by a single finger, I assume the force is not that great, but again, I dont have experience with t hese units, so clarification is needed )

Any suggestions on this idea / design would be greatly appreciated.

If the general idea behind this is technically sound and doable, I will dream about realizing this setup soon.

cletus July 19th, 2006, 01:27 AM
Your idea is intriging but may wind up too cumbersome for a standard rifle. It would be right at home on a tripod mounted semi auto belt fed like a 1916 browning.

Imagine running a 250 round belt of 30/06 downrange in less than a minute all perfectly legal. You should have your motor run on 12 volt DC, that way you could utilize your vehicles electrical source also a car
battery would fit snugly in a20mm GI ammo can.

++++

Please notice the changes made to your post. Follow standard grammar rules, like CAPITALIZING the begining of EVERY sentence, as well as abreviations, such as GI. Thank you.

NBK

nbk2000 July 19th, 2006, 05:01 AM
Electrically powered devices are illegal.

But fuck it, eh? :)

billybobjoe July 19th, 2006, 05:14 AM
The McMaster Carr part number is eluding me, but a pneumatic rotary actuator. It measures about 3 cm by 3 cm by 6 cm, and has two 1/8" hose barbs sticking out of it. It also has a 5/16' shaft with small key
way. So it pulley would be a piece of cake to attach, and it would be powered by a 20 oz co2 tank or similar. Now I realize this adds another few steps, and a lot of complication, contrary to K.I.S.S. But a palmer
low pressure regulator set to 60 psi, some 1/8" hose and an inline blowgun and then discharging into the atmosphere shouldn't be too overly complicated to built. And much higher rpms could be achieved. Maybe
this would be a loop hole, if nothing else some food for thought.

tomu July 19th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Years back devices like the GAT trigger were sold which worked like a clockwork. The user wound them up before use and after pulling a trigger on the device the spring actuated system fired the gun very much like
a full auto.

I'm not sure this device are still legal, I guess a look at shotgun news would reveal the availability.

BlackFalcoN July 19th, 2006, 07:22 AM
cletus - It all really depends on the size of the DC motor that is utilized.
Since the connection between the pullies is by belt, the motor could be placed anywhere relative to the fixed GAT-system, as long as the belt was adjusted in length.
If the DC motor isn't too heavy and the weight of the motor is well placed so it doesn't imbalance the gun, a mobile system could be realized.

NBK - It all depends on your location and local gun laws.
The device doesn't alter the original gun in any case. All it does is replace finger motion.

So if we would call it a 'cybernetic finger prosthesis for the shooting impaired' (patent pending :p), then what government could possibly oppose that ? One can't be blamed for trying to help his disabled shooting
buddy right ? :D
( if they do oppose, well yeah -fuck it-, we are just discussing the theoretical design of this unit, it's still up to the sole reader to check with his local gunlaws if it is allowed to construct it and decide whether he
wants to actually construct the device)

billybobjoe - higher rpms would be nice, but since the GAT system multiplies every rotation by four, 100-300 rpm is all that's really necessary on the GAT-shaft, because most guns aren't going to surpass 1200
rounds per minute fired anyway. 1200 rpm = 20 bullets fired PER SECOND (imagine the bolt travel and recoil on some guns :eek: ). This would clear out even the biggest magazine/belt/box in seconds.

Your design with an actuator would work I think, but it does have some drawbacks such as availability of parts, ease of construction, and availability of air / CO2 tanks. Imagine being in a tactical situation where
you suddenly find your CO2 tank being empty or punctured. It's a good alternative / extension however for those who would prefer it.
Batteries are more common and easier to use I think, and would allow for a 'juice meter' to be attached, so you can check how much current is still available.

It would be really nice if we could figure out how much force is required to rotate the crank on the GAT system, so we can have an idea about what DC motor would be necessary.

An improved version of my design would incorporate a stepper motor, so the rotation of the pulleys could be controlled EXACTLY, allowing for multiple burst and speed options as well as single fire shots etc.
However, this would involve extra electronics and a more complicated design, so I didn't mention it in the original design for the sake of keeping it simple and being realizable for the average user. However a
stepper motor design would be far superior in the area of controllability to the 'basic' DC-motor design.

Docca July 19th, 2006, 08:53 AM
technically it's not full-auto, since every pin strike has to be achieved by pulling the trigger

Wrong, in the U.S., anything other than the hand crank will generally be prosecuted as possession of an unregistered class III weapon. 5 federal years, no parole.

I was wondering if it would be possible to replace the crank wheel on the side by a pulley that could be mounted in the grip of the gun

Possible, but I wouldn't advise it for a number of reasons (preceeding and following).

that would theoretically allow the trigger to be pulled at 1200 pulls per minute

The full auto version of the M-14 was abandoned by the U.S. military (and everyone else) because it was uncontrollable at that rate of fire.
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How much force is required to rotate the crank

The most force is going to be "starting torque", running after it's started shouldn't be a problem. 300 watts would probably do it.

Electrically powered devices are illegal

In the U.S., powered devices will generally be treated as class III. A hand cranked Gatlin gun is not class III, a GE minigun is class III, even if you use pneumatics or a weedeater as an alternate means of
operating it.

a pneumatic rotary actuator, maybe this would be a loop hole

No, see above.

I'm not sure this device are still legal

I'm pretty sure that would fall under "powered device".

It all depends on your location and local gun laws

True, although I can't imagine where a local gun law will not apply. In the U.S. it's a federal felony.

then what government could possibly impose that ? One can't be blamed for trying to help his disabled shooting buddy right

The BATFE will.

higher rpms would be nice, but since the GAT system multiplies every rotation by four, 100-300 rpm is all that's really necessary on the GAT-shaft, because most guns aren't going to surpass 1200 rounds per
minute fired anyway. 1200 rpm = 20 bullets fired PER SECOND (imagine the bolt travel and recoil on some guns ). This would clear out even the biggest magazine/belt/box in seconds

True, but see the M-14 explanation above. A better rate of fire would be around 600. A better weapon weight would be approaching 20 lbs (see M-60).

However a stepper motor design would be far superior in the area of controllability to the 'basic' DC-motor design

True.

Jacks Complete July 21st, 2006, 07:55 AM
You won't require anything like a 300W motor! That's 25A at 12V.

Get yourself to an auto scrapyard, and blag or buy a Range Rover electric window motor. Huge amount of torque from the gearbox that is built in, runs on about 3 amps max, enough power to cut the head off a kid
when installed as normal, but you will never stall it in this application. Cut off however many teeth from your main gear, and you should be good to go.

Overdrive it with 24 volts if you want a higher RoF.

The other way would be a simple spring driven motor with a winding toy. You wind the handle, then press the button and it hammers the trigger for you.

Whoever asked how much torque/force you need, it will depend on your gun and the trigger weight required for let-off, as well as the travel in it. I had a dream about a standard servo that could be clipped to a
trigger guard and used to pull the trigger should someone invent a clever wireless system that would allow action at a distance. The servo arm was wired direct to the trigger, and the entire device could move
fairly freely between the two anchoring points. Not going to be fast enough for this idea, though.

john_smith July 23rd, 2006, 11:05 AM
A central locking door/trunk solenoid (like on old Holden Commodores/Opel Records, probably a shitload of other cars too) with a 555 multivibrator circuit perhaps?

furdog July 25th, 2006, 07:16 PM
I hope I have got the idea of this conversation right. If the discussion is about full auto weapons that can be fired by a electric motor. Would that be illegal?

Paragraphs are your friend

I would not try or attempt this for various safety reasons, but I once knew a guy who took a GAT trigger the kind with the turn handle. He took the handle off and attached a electric 12 volt dc motor to the trigger
and then to a battery . He then somehow made it work like the touch sensitive flashlights you mount on a gun. Never less when he squeezed it went full auto! No idea how safe this is! I guess this would be illegal?
If I am wrong on the conversation then I apologize.

BlackFalcoN August 6th, 2006, 11:26 AM
I hope I have got the idea of this conversation right. If the discussion is about full auto weapons that can be fired by a electric motor. Would that be illegal?

The idea is to take a semi-automatic weapon and create a setup which will recreate a super-fast finger-action motion by means of the push of a button.
Mechanically the weapon will be semi-automatic, but since the RoF will be much higher, the behaviour will resemble a full-auto.

This design can be realized electrically or pneumatically as described above.

The actual creation of this design would be illegal in most parts of the world, so there's no use in repeating that over and over.
(This idea is for theoretical discussion only and yada yada yada... :rolleyes:)
Only build it if your law allows it and you have the right paperwork done etc. :)

Full-auto on most heavier calibre weapons will result in lousy accuracy, but one can imagine tactical situations where accuracy would be of less importance and superior firerate would offer a great advantage...

Also, the full-auto setup mounted on a .22LR rimfire would greatly improve the lethality of such a weapon.
The recoil of a full-auto Ruger 10/22 for example would be very manageable. (effective full-auto fire would be limited to 75 ~ 100 yards, but in most CQB situations that would prove to be sufficient.)

Tectonic August 6th, 2006, 02:01 PM
It isn't used for real firearms, but there's a thing called the "Firestorm Crank" used for Paintbal Markers, that basically does the same thing as the "GAT Trigger Systerm". The Firestorm Crank is also a few dollars
cheaper, I believe if you're a penny-pincher.

Though, I don't know if something made for Paintball would work on a real firearm, but of course redneck-engineering, or nigger-rigging could definitely play a role in getting it to work.

Firestorm Crank (http://www.specialopspaintball.com/shop/product_detail.asp?SKU=201+0014&BRAND=EQUALIZER)

GAT Trigger System (http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/uniquetriggersystems.html)

BlackFalcoN August 6th, 2006, 02:29 PM
The cheapest I was able to find the GAT was 34.95$ after some googling around.

The Firestorm crank looks very similar in design and performs the same task as the GAT.
Since the triggerpull on a paintballmarker isn't that different from most firearms, it will provide a viable alternative for the GAT I think.

Not sure about the mounting clip that keeps the Firestorm unit clamped to the triggerguard, since it was designed for paintballmarkers.
But like you said, anyone should be able to fix that with some creative engineering. ;)

Tectonic August 6th, 2006, 03:00 PM
On my Tippmann 98 Custom (Paintball Marker) the trigger pull is 3lbs, but can be modified to be as light as a mouse-click by cutting the trigger return spring and bolt spring.

For Paintball, The Firestorm Crank mounts easily with two screws to the trigger guard. However, again, that make some some thought to get it to work on a firearm.

Someone should give it a shot!

Eoin August 10th, 2006, 09:59 AM
The simplest 'full auto' for a semi is to tie a piece of strong line to the cocking handle, providing that it travels with the breech block or the carrier; pass it back through a loop tied around the stock, behind the
trigger, then forward to the trigger.

Adjust the line so that when the cocking handle is fully forward it has just pulled the trigger.
Thus every time the breech closes the trigger will be pulled.

Fire can be selective by having enough slack in the line so that 'full auto' only comes in when the hand is closed tightly against the stock.
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This system works best when the loop behind the trigger is a fixed metal ring, but if it is desired to not alter the firearm in any way then use the line loop.

This system is probably illegal too but has the advantage of being quickly disengaged and then becomes only a couple of bits of fishing line tied around the stock

BlackFalcoN August 13th, 2006, 03:29 PM
It isn't used for real firearms, but there's a thing called the "Firestorm Crank" used for Paintball Markers, that basically does the same thing as the "GAT Trigger System". The Firestorm Crank is also a few dollars
cheaper, I believe if you're a penny-pincher.

I've looked into the Firestorm Crank a bit deeper and here are my findings:

- The Firestorm is roughly the same in design as the GAT but has the added benefit that it's ambidextrous. The unit has mounting-points to the left and the right for the crank to be placed upon. This leaves one side
unused by the crank and allows for a pulley to be attached to the unused side for our design.

- The Firestorm can be had for as much as 25$, where the cheapest I found the GAT is 35$ (every penny saved, counts ;) )

- The Firestorm comes in 4 versions: the FC 101, 102, 103 and 104
Model FC102 (Tippmann A5) is the most versatile for use on firearms as it's the most generic version of the four.
It fits most other paintball markers and will fit most firearm trigger-guards as well according to other sites.
Version 101,103 and 104 are less desired, because they are created to fit the double-trigger housings etc. of various Tippmann markers, and probably will require some reshaping/ redesigning to properly fit a
firearm.

- The Firestorm doesn't mention anywhere the words "GUN","FIREARM", "WEAPON" etc, which can be a huge benefit for international orders which have to go through customs.
No problems should be expected on paintball-marker parts.
(where the order of firearm parts (terrorist devices :eek: [baahs sheepishly]) could raise a big red flag )
If questions do arise regarding the purchase of a 'gattling system', you can easily justify it since you're just going to use it on a paintball marker, right ? :p

If somebody has experience with the Firestorm, please post your comments in this thread.

BeerWolf August 24th, 2006, 10:23 PM
The simplest 'full auto' for a semi is to tie a piece of strong line to the cocking handle...This system is probably illegal too

The BATFE already ruled that shoelaces are machineguns in the USA.

Heres a copy of the ruling:
http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg

Joat August 27th, 2006, 03:54 AM
From the The National Firearms Act Title 26, United States Code INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
5845. Definitions
(b) Machinegun. -- The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single
function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in
converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
Basicly the way I read it if it acts like a machine gun it is a Machinegun.

In order to build anything defined as a Machinegun under this law if you are not a FFL SOT,(lots of paper work, finger prints on file and opening your business to the BATFE to search anytime they like.) you must fill
out an application and pay the $200 making tax first. But all applications to make machine guns will be denied.

The closest thing to full auto that is legal that I know of is the Akins Accelerator there web site is:
http://www.firefaster.com/
All it does is let the receiver move back when fired so that when it moves forward again the trigger hits your finger and fires another shot.

Of course the law only applies to people in the USA and state laws could be more restrictive. I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as legal advice.

w22shadow August 27th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I have done some research on this subject myself. It makes much more sense on the 1919A4, IMO. It certainly is not legal though; the motor would be considered the "trigger" on any such device.

Links:
Emory Jones' "Crank Fire Adaptor"
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7942/20809dcp0003ez0.jpg
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/14/20809dcp00061gb7.jpg

Videos:
1919A4 Gatling Crank Adaptor
http://rapidshare.de/files/30955539/1919A4_Gatling_Crank_Adapter.mpeg.html

'Allied Armament' Crankfire Systems Crankfire (Bottom of Page)
http://alliedarmament.homestead.com/1919A.html
(The video is 404. :( NBK)

Good luck, anyhow. :)

Diabolique September 9th, 2006, 03:46 PM
I encountered a spring device placed behind the trigger, in some of my older firearms catalogs, that kicked the trigger finger forward when the rifle fired. It resulted in one pull of the trigger by your finger for each
shot fired. It may have become prohibited by the BATFE (their name keeps growing with every prohibition they take on).

BeerWolf September 11th, 2006, 07:15 PM
If you're going to put on external electrical devices to simulate FA fire, why not just put a solenoid on the trigger, instead of motors?

Perhaps you could go to the junkyard and find one of the solenoids on a carb'ed car that increases the idle for the A/C. They take 12VDC, and have a 1/2" throw at several pounds of push.

If you put a switch on the stock that was closed by the operating handle at the front of it's stroke, and hooked it in series with the solenoid, it ought to fire at cyclic rate.

(edited for a silly spelling error)

Docca September 12th, 2006, 07:21 AM
Perhaps you could go to the junkyard ... 12VDC, and have a 1/2" throw at several pounds of push.

If you put a switch on the stock that was closed by the operating handle at the front of it's stroke, and hooked it in series with the solenoid, it ought to fire at cyclic rate.

Illegalities aside, that's a very good idea.

What I'd like to point out is that you would need to trigger it with something that is just finishing its stroke after the bolt is locked.

The thing that people forget (or more likely never knew) when doing these sorts of experiments is that the bolt must be locked closed before the shell is fired. Otherwise you have an out of battery discharge (it's a
bad thing, google it).

On many weapons, the operating handle would work - e.g. the M-14 / M1A; on some weapons you'd need to catch something else (bolt carrier) - e.g. M-16 / AR-15. Whatever you work off of, it had better not fire
the round before the bolt is locked.

Weapons that operate by blowback are a different subject - I can't tell you much about them (sorry).

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > Dim m a b l e L a s e r W e a p o n - S i g h t s

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nbk2000 July 8th, 200 7, 09:40 AM
I n t h e U S , a n d p r e s u m ably most other countrie s, 'civilians' aren't allowed to own IR laser weapon-sights, presum a b l y b e c a u s e
of their utility in night-com bat, and the State's desire to retain their adva ntage in such things.

So, how to go about bypassing such re strictions?

W ell, you could m ake your own, either from scratch or b y swapping out the visible laser diode from a com m ercial laser weapon-
sight with an IR laser module.

But this is a hassle and and an unnecessary expense.

By u sing a sim ple polarizing filter, you can turn an ordinary visible-red laser weapon-sight into an invisible night-combat sight.
:)

Since you have to have som e sort of NVD to use IR lasers in the first place, you can use the NVD's light-am plification to your
advantage, since it will am plify visible light, as well as invisible IR.

Placing a polarizing filter in front of the visible-red laser allows you to 'dim ' its output to a level that is invisible to the naked
eye, yet still clearly visible to a NVD, all while staying in conform ance of the law, since the output is still in the visible spectrum ,
just too low to be eye -visible. :p

I developed this concept using a Night-Shot equipped cam corder, a $5 visible-red laser pointer, an d a p o l a r i z e d s u n g l a s s l e n s .

The following experim ent was perform e d i n a d a r k r o o m :

The polarized lens was placed in front of the activated laser and slowly rotated un til the laser light was nearly exting uished. At
this point, the light is barely visible against a white wall, and totally invisible against a dark towel.

Then the camcorder, in night-shot m ode with supplemental IR light off, is used.

At this point, the lase r dot becomes quite visible as a bright-white dot in the dark screen, when projected against the white wall,
and faintly so against the dark towel.

T h e n t h e s u p p l e m ental IR lighting is turned on.

Again, the dot is clearly visible against the white wall, but washed out on the dark towel.

I then repeated the experiment outdoors, during 41% moon, with a target 35 yards away, which was a white panel truck with
reflectors on top, while videoing it (on FTP, in m y folder). :)

The first half shows the laser undimm ed, through the le ns, and then fully dimm ed, aimed at both the back of the truck, and at
the reflectors. The slight glow present in the reflectors is the moonlight.

The second half shows the vie w at the target, with the very faint spot visible on th e rear of the truck, with the shadow of the
chainlink fence showing, and the shadow of my hand passing through the beam, then finally directly upon m y h a n d .

The downside is that the laser source is still quite obvious, since it is ope rating in the visible spectra, but any designated
targets would be unawares as long as they weren't looking straight at you.

I think this shows the potential is there, and I believe that proper NVD's, especially m ore powerful ones using GEN3 or higher,
would have no problem seeing such faint (but visible frequency) laser light, even against dark backgrounds.

Also, the advantage is there in the sim plicity of the device, and the ability to use the laser as either an eye -visible, or dim m e d
'invisible' m ode, all at the flick of a lever, and without the additional com plexity o f dual laser-diodes and having to sight-in two
different lasers.

mememe July 8th, 200 7, 02:51 PM
Not wanting to detract from ye t another of NBK’s sim ple yet clever ideas, but I have to say just how this thread highlights the
a m azing and ridiculous void between the laws of the UK and the USA !

In the USA ‘Joe Average’ is allowed to own weapons that we in the UK can only dream of, unless that is we hold a Section5
F.A.C. which outside of the Armed Forces is all but impossible to get.

Yet on the flip side, unlike the U SA, in the UK we can buy Rimfire and Ce ntrefire Moderato rs / Silencers ove r the counter, as
long as you state it’s to be used on an air weapon and not on a firearm etc.

No surprises where this one is going, h ere we can buy IR Laser weapon sights over the counter, for using legally on any type of
weapon, be they Airsoft, Air Rifles, Shotguns or Firearm s .

A good friend just purchased an excellent one recently for only GBP200 o r about 400USD inc. delivery and insurance etc. (fro m
www.nightvisiongear.co.uk) and I’ve se e n e x a m ples for sale on eBay for as little as GBP120 (plus S+H and taxes).

LibertyOrDeath July 8th, 200 7, 08:01 PM
This is indeed a clever idea.

Actually, I haven't heard of any specific legal restrictions in the US against selling IR lasers to the general public. My
understanding (which may be mistaken) is that vendors typically choose not to sell to the general public be cause IR lasers are
m uch less eye-safe than visible lasers. O f course the effect is th e s a m e regardless: we have trouble buying them . : m a d :

Anyway, here's a sim ple form ula that might be useful:

It = I0 * (cos[theta])^2 (only the cosine is squ ared, not I0)
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It = intensity of light transm itted throu gh the polarizer

I0 = m a x i m um intensity of lig ht transmitted (this happens when the polarization direction of the laser and that of the lens line
up perfectly)

theta = angle of rotation of th e polarizing lens around its own periphery, starting from the point where intensity is m a x i m u m

The downside is that the laser source is still quite obvious, since it is ope rating in the visible spectra, but any designated
targets would be unawares as long as they weren't looking straight at you.A possible slight refinem ent might be to attach a
relatively long, narrow tube to the output aperture of the laser. The longer the tube for a given diam eter, the narrower the area
of solid angle from which an o pponent in front of you could see the laser source.

mememe July 10th, 20 07, 05:2 1 AM
I find the suggestion that U S vendors m erely choose not to sell specific types of weapon sights, purely on the grounds that if
incorrectly used, they can dam a g e p e o ples eyes, to be highly unlikely in the extrem e, because surely the possibility of
d a m a g i n g s o m e o n e ’ s e y e s i g h t is the least of their problems when the said laser sight is fixed to a .50BMG rifle that the sam e
v e n d o r h a d n o s u c h q u a l m s in supplying?

Far m ore likely is as NBK suggests, it’s probably yet another of the US establishm ent’s ill conceived ideas to try to m a i n t a i n a n
advantage over the so called ‘opposition’, however way off the m ark this may actually be and in spite of just how easily it can
be circum vented, as proved in this instance by NBK’s idea !!

nbk2000 July 15th, 20 07, 10:1 9 AM
W oo Hoo! #1 hit in Google, baby, yeah!

'dim mable laser' or 'laser + dimm a b l e '

It's a very narrow niche, but God dam n it, I'm the King of this small pond! :D

W hat I don't get is th e fucks that are using the text from this thread to load their key word indexs for non-blogs and other
internet clutter. :rolleyes:

neo-crossbow July 16th, 20 07, 05:5 8 AM
That's an interesting spin on an old trick,

I was going to bust into rhym e about a little used photography trick, where with a gelatin filter, IR f i l m a n d a p r e - f o c u s e d
c a m e r a o n e c a n p h o t o g r a p h d ocum ents in the com p l e t e d a r k n e s s .

If you use a SLR , pre focus it to desire d length, add a length of string glued or ta ped to the cam era at the correct focus length,
gela tin filter the flash , tape th e corners especially thoroughly of coarse, load the film in the COMPLETE dark, that is lights ou t
in a dark roo m ( i f y o u r l u c k y e n o u g h t o h a v e o n e ) a n d g i d d y u p .

You can use a stick, with a nice document holder to get the best results, but try hiding tha t down your pants....

It is a point to note, of coarse , that if your concealing the cam era you run the risk of either knocking lens out of focus or the
taped filter lifting from the flash...

both are pretty uncoo l, now that is old school, I haven't had to p hotograph paper in the dark lately, so I am sure that the
technique ha s b e e n u p d a t e d .

A g o o d p h o t o g r a p h y s t o r e a s s i s t a n t s h ould be able to turn up a gelatin filter for the LASER project, if your interested on
another spin.

nbk2000 July 16th, 20 07, 09:5 2 AM
Lasers, by definition, emit a coherent beam of light of a single wavelength.

(Don't bring up the exceptions, they're not relevant to the discussion.)

Therefore, you can't use a gelatin filter to block all but the IR, because the visible lasers do not emit any IR to start with.

W hat you are doing with the p olarizing filter is reducing the emission of visible laser light to such a level as to be invisible to
the naked eye, but still detectable by the powerful light-amplifying ability of a GEN2+ NVD.

Now, you might be able to tea r down a green laser to m a k e a n I R l a s e r , a s I r e m e m b e r t h a t e a r l y g r e e n d i o d e l a s e r u s e d a
crystal to convert IR laser light into green.

R e m oving that crystal, if you can still find a laser that uses such a thing, would do the trick.

LibertyOrDeath July 16th, 20 07, 06:0 6 PM
Now, you might be able to tea r down a green laser to m a k e a n I R l a s e r , a s I r e m e m b e r t h a t e a r l y g r e e n d i o d e l a s e r u s e d a
crystal to convert IR laser light into green.

R e m oving that crystal, if you can still find a laser that uses such a thing, would do the trick.Yup, you're refe rring to a process
k n o w n a s s e c o n d h a r m onic ge neration (SHG) from the field of nonlinear optics.

For those who aren't familiar with this stuff, what happens in SHG is that a laser beam of a certain frequency enters a certain
kind of crystal (e.g., potassium dihydrogen phosphate, a.k.a. KDP), and the interaction of the strong electric field from the
laser with the electrons in the crystal causes the emission of a new laser with twice the frequency (half the wavelength) of the
one entering the crystal. So, if you have a laser of IR wavelength (say, 1.064 microns), and you double its frequency via SHG,
you end up with a visible laser of wavelength 532 nm. R emove the nonlinear crystal, and you still have the IR laser.

T h a t g i v e s m e an idea: is it possible to do the reverse? In other words, are there any m aterials into which a visible laser cou ld
be shone that would cause the emission of an infrared laser?

At first thoug ht, it doesn't seem likely. The reason is that nonlinear processes are based on positive intege r powers of the
electric field. So you get proce sses that can double, triple, and q uadruple(?) a frequency, or processes that can add the
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frequencies of two lasers, etc., but I don't recall hearing of any that can increase wavelength. I'll research the subject a bit and
add more info to this post if I find anything.

Jacks Complete July 20th, 20 07, 04:4 0 PM
Generally, it is far harder to la ze in the shorter wavelengths than the longer wavelengths. Hence the struggle to get blue diode
lasers, compared with red lasers which have been aroun d for years, and IR lasers, which is where it all started with IR diodes
over 30 years ago.

If you want an IR laser, rip an old CD drive apart. DVD drives have red la sers, Blu -Ray have blue lasers. (Green is still stuck
with DPSS crystals though, as no-one has found a green em ission line worth a dam n.)

T h e r e a r e p e ople buying Blu-Ray m achines purely to rip apart fo r the diode, to be the first on the block with a blue laser diode
toy. There are also lo ts of people ripping CD burners apart for the high p ower IR h e a d s i n t h e m . T a k e a l o o k a t
www.candlepowerforums.com for details.

As regards the harm onics, second harmonic is rare in a crystal, triple is rare comp ared to second. I've never heard of a fourth
harmonic crystal that is usable.

nbk2000 July 25th, 20 07, 06:2 8 AM
I found a graph showing the spectral p ass characteristics of crossed glass polarizers:

http://www.anchoroptics.com /im a g e s / p roducts/Com mercialPolargraphweb larg.jpg

At the spectra typical of visible-red weapons lasers (635 n m - 6 8 0 n m ), em ission is cut down to 0.15% of original, which would
correspond to 0.0075m w from a 5mw diode laser. :)

This is for com m ercial grade glass polarizers, which would run about 20x as m uch as cheaper polaroid polarizing film .

W ith the film , this effect could be achieved for literal pennies per laser.

Jacks Complete July 26th, 20 07, 06:1 4 PM
As a note, with the higher powered lasers (40m W a n d u p ) y o u h a v e t o t a ke care with plastic optics, as it will m elt them after a
short time, e specially things like the plastic polarisers and neutral density filters, as they absord a lot m ore of the radiation.

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > Gun safe can be opened with cabinet key

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Demolition Man March 21st, 2008, 11:52 AM
Stack-On P-B 201 Pistol Box, around $ 35 at W alm art, can be opened with a norm al filing cabinet key

Full article

http://www.wm ctv.com / g l o b a l / s t o r y . a s p ? s = 7 9 7 8 0 7 0

This is very interesting, considering m ost people (myself include d), buy alot of firearm accessories (plinking amm o, slings),
from W alm art, and I'm g u e s s i n g s o m e b u y s a f e s f r o m there too.

I d o n ' t h a v e k i d d i e s i n t h e h o u s e , s o a l l m y weapons are available quickly, but even then, if I'm going to b uy a safe now, I
think I'll stick to my local dealer instead.

That also being said, if you know som eone who shops alot at Walmart, especially for shit like this, carry around a filling cabinet
key, or a cheap lockp ick set, considering the lock is stone age technology, heh

a3990918 March 28th, 2008, 12:52 AM
Stack-On P-B 201 Pistol Box, around $ 35 at W alm art, can be opened with a norm al filing cabinet key

I would guess that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of differe nt key cuts to fit this type of lock. It is a generic door/
drawer lock that has been in service for years. Just bad luck that the Co. that m a k e s W a l - M a r t ' s S t a c k - o n l i n e o f t o o l b o x e s / g u n
s a f e s used that particular lock . Probably the ke ys that fit the tool boxes will also fit the safe. Just goes to prove that you get
what you pay for.

I worked for C oca-Cola back in the early 80's as a cooler repairm a n . C a m e h o m e f r o m work 1 night and found a "Lock-O ut"
over the door handle to my apartm ent( I was 2 0 yrs old , putting m yself thru college, rent was late occaissionally) Anyway,
look ed at the lock, went out to my truck and got m y coinbox keyring and the 9th or 10th key(of over 200 o n t h e r i n g ) o p e n e d
the lock-out. I was able to get in m y apartment for the next 3 nights until I got paid. The point is, 1 key fit 2 com pletely
different types of locking mech. 1 built into the item and the other sim ply bolted to a coinbox.

Another time , I had a Chevy Caprice and went to the Mall one night. W hen I left, couldn't find m y car. Finally spotte d it,
unlo cked the door and got ready to leave but the ignition key wouldm 't turn. Just before I really got pissed, I noticed the
interior of the car was different from m ine. W rong car, b ut the door key fit it. W ho would have thou g h t ? ? I h a v e b e e n t o l d
sonce then that m ost car man ufacturers only have a set # of different keyed locks and they rely on distribution of the cars
themselves to avoid having 2 people in the sam e area having vehicles keyed alike.

Demolition Man March 28th, 2008, 10:45 AM
Y e a , m y old C hevelle had an ancient lock system as well...of course, that was back in the golden days of being able to start a
car with a screw driver, none of this transponder key crap, but that's a story for another section of the forum s :)

TreverSlyFox March 30th, 2008, 09:13 PM
You would think Stack-On wou l d h a v e g i v e n s o m e thought about what lock they put on their products. Thou g h l i k e m o s t
companies their thought was just for the bottom line and not for the security of their custo mers.

gaussincarnate March 30th, 2008, 11:45 PM
I rem e m b e r o n e t i m e, much to m y suprise, that someone that I knew unlocked my parents' car's door with their own front door
(to their house) key. It was a rather old car, bu t still. Naturally, the car did not use a double wafer lock (do any houses use
those?).

In any event, can you really blame m anufacturers for reusing key templates? If it were m e, I would definitely not m a k e a
uniq ue key to fit every single safe, and since even for dissim ilar products, if the key is close enough, it might just o p e n .

a3990918 March 31st, 2008, 03:01 AM
In any event, can you really blame m anufacturers for reusing key templates? If it were m e, I would definitely not m a k e a
uniq ue key to fit every single safe, and since even for dissim ilar products, if the key is close enough, it might just o p e n .

Agreed, the m anufacturers depend on distribution to ke ep liked keyed locks apart. But wh en you have a multi use lock it
raises the probablility of 2 like keyed locks com m ing into contact. Of course som e o f t h e c h e a p e r m a d e g o o d s a r e g o i n g t o
use even fewer different key tem p l a t e s s o t h e o d d s g o u p e v e n h i g h e r o f f i n f d n g a m atch.

Charles Owlen Picket March 31st, 2008, 10:22 AM
I found a few things that work for me.... An ATF approved magazine m a k e a g r e a t i n e x p e n s i v e s a f e a n d a s e l f - p r o g r a m m a b l e
combination lock with rubber tubing over the shackle m a k e s a g r e a t i n d i v i d u a l g u n l o c k .

T h e " s a f e " ( u s i n g a m a g a z i n e ) costs a bout half of what you'd spend for the sam e size safe and it is really VERY difficult to
break into. P lus you can leave all the stickers on and m a k e a n o t e t h a t i f s o m eone tries to open it, they will cause an
explosion (leave the Spanish shit also).

The rubber coated com bination lock works well on revolvers, AR /AK's and things with space behind the trigger (double action) &
allows the piece to get moving dam n fast while rem aining child & m o r o n s a f e ( t o a d e g r e e , of course).

PYRO500 April 10th, 2008, 03:19 AM
As a locksm ith I can tell you exactly what happened... those are cheap Y11 (keyblank) cam locks, som e o f t h e m h a v e o n l y o n e
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or two wafers, some have 5, there are many many com binations that the y can be opened with, however if you use a key that
has lower cuts, and possibly a diffrent warding configuation (the grooves running down the sides) you can wiggle it around and
get all of the wafers to clear the bottom channel machined into the inside of the camlock. Also if the wafers sit slightly high
then they will rub off, as they are made of soft brass, the sam e k i n d t h e k e y i s m a d e o f .

Just by looking at the key in the picture, I can tell that the original key had 3 of the shallowest depths, and one cut that is
m oderately deep, if you insert any key with a lum p on the tip, while applying turning pressure, only that deep cut has to be
close to work . This is just the nature of cam locks and there isnt a whole lot you can do with that type. If yo u want high security
you get what you pay for, and 65$ basicly pays for the box, those cam locks are literally p e n n i e s a p o u n d .

Even if the cam lock had the m a x i m u m allowable diffrence in depths, you can still bend/break the wafers and as a m atter of
fact in the picture of the keys I can see where the wafers have pressed hard into that key. I am willing to bet that kid not on ly
tried long and hard to get it open, but he tried it a zillion tim es and found that if he twiste d that key hard it would open, and
opened very easy after that.

That cam lock in the picture appears to be attached only with a standard screw down nut onto the back of the plate, and if you
can get a grip on those cam locks with vise grips, the nut will often allow the lock to twist around enough so that the tailpiece no
long er engages whatever was holding it there. Manufacturers are supposed to tak e a d v a n t a g e o f t h e f l a t s p o t s m a c h i n e d o n
these locks by using a punch die with 2 flat spots to ma tch the lock, the only issue is that many manufacturers (especially in
the custom market) find it m uch m uch cheaper to drill the holes round in stead of using a turret punch...

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Firearm Accessories > Silencers in Europe : a review

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BlackFalcoN May 11th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I was visiting a long time friend who recently moved far away to France, where he gave me a demonstration of a couple of .22LR sound moderators (suppressors, silencers,
cans).

Here is a report of my findings:

Silencers are perfectly legal to own in France without any law trying to regulate their purchase, possession or design.
(Ich had never fired or used a silencer before and don't intend to, since they are illegal in my home country.)

According to my friend, the French government even encourages shooters to use them to reduce firearm noise pollution :cool:

No 200$ BATFE stamp, no fingerprints taken, no LEO involved, no Form 4 purchase through a Class3 dealer, no dodgy 'legal trust constructions' to own them -- it seems some
governments actually still trust their civilians to own them. ;)
This is not unique in Europe since other countries such as Finland, Norway & Sweden and the UK (for firearms up to .25 ) also allow the purchase of suppressors.
(Firearm ownership is not so liberal in Europe as in the USA and generally requires a permit to purchase a firearm though)

Suppressors are generally available in gunshops, and range from 25 euros for a basic .22LR to about 400-ish euros for a high calibre, top of the line design.
( 40$ to 600$; but with the plummeting US economy and dollar exchange rate, don't quote me on that in a year :D )

Anyway, I personally experienced the firing of a couple of silencers. The host weapon was a Ruger MkII pistol, firing CCI 40 grain standard velocity rounds.
( because the barrel length of a pistol is generally too short for a .22LR to reach supersonic velocity, this does not create a supersonic crack, and so the more expensive
subsonic ammo is not required.)

First to test was the Still No2 silencer.
This is a very light weight, short silencer, designed to be compact (12cm long) and cheap and reduce sound levels to a 'hearing safe' level.
First round pop was not too bad, since the internal volume and oxygen is limited.
Certainly not the best I witnessed that day, but for 25 euros it's certainly the most economical way to shoot without hearing protection.

Next was the SAK silencieux from Finland.
It was about 3cm longer than the Still, but a lot bulkier. It actually had such a big diameter that it blocked the sights of the MkII.
My friend showed me the internal design of this silencer. It is designed from a mono block of aluminum, with 6 round staggered baffle chambers.
It seems like a very simple design, depending on larger internal volume rather than complicated internals design, which makes it certainly replicatable for people who own a
drill press and round stock aluminium. (and can't buy them legally)

It is very easily disassembled and cleaned.

My friend told me this particular design works even better if one puts mesh wire (course steel wool) in the baffle chambers, and smear some Ultrasonic gel in it to optimize
thermal conductivity to cool down the gasses. (which he demonstrated to me)

The ultrasonic gel is used instead of water. This is referred to as a 'wet' silencer and the substance is used to cool down the gasses even more. You could easily replace this
with lithium grease, wire gell or just plain water. Ultrasonic gel has the benefit that it's water based (doesn't create smoke when heated like grease), but still is a solid gel, so it
remains in place longer than liquid tap water.

We fired it a couple of times, and I was very impressed with the results we got.

The shot did not sound like a firearm discharge at all, rather like a CO2pellet gun.

They are sold for about 50 euros and are available in various colours and 1/2x20 or 1/2x28 tpi threads at most French gunshops.

Very much liked the sound reduction, especially the home improved version, I can see a lot of rogue applications for it ;).
It was a bit bulky so you are not able to use sights anymore which a minus to me.

After that, my friend showed me a home made design, which he fabricated himself on his father's metal lathe.

The design consists of 4 main parts:
-a threaded steel tube, very slim but longer than 2 previous silencers with a removable screw-on lid (about 19 cm).
-6 aluminum K-Baffles (so called, because their design resembles a K from the side)
-an aluminum spacer tube, OD fitted nicely into the ID of the steel outer tube. This is to provide a gas expansion chamber, so the final pressure of the gasses through the
baffles is reduced considerably.
-a coil spring to press the baffle elements and expansion chamber snugly into the tube.

The noise report was the same as the improved version of the SAK I'd say, quiet, very thin design, but the DIY design requires a workshop with a metal lathe...

Finally we tested the Ase Utra 22. (Utra not Ultra)
This is a Finnish silencer which is regarded by many as 'the ultimate in noise reduction for a .22LR' that is commercially available to civilians.

It is relatively heavy, due to it's all steel design and about 17 cm long. The metal's finish is very nice.
The sights of the MkII were perfectly usable with this silencer.
Price in France is reasonably high, around 130 euros, but my friend said it would be much cheaper to buy them in the UK (70£) or straight from Finland (80euro).

After firing the MkII with it, all I can say is 'Waaw...'

This nifty device literally converts a .22LR into a weapon that does not sound like anything I've heard before. It's more silent than a CO2pellet gun, more silent than a paintball
gun.
I'm pretty certain you could fire this all day long in an apartment building, without people even suspecting you of discharging a gun. This thing was quiet !
( not Hollywood silencer quiet, but still, much better than all previous silencers we tested that day). There was no other sound than the action working the gun and the bullet
impacting the wooden target.

What I was able to find from research on the internet, the Ase Utra is indeed one of the quietest silencer currently available, beating most of the hyper-expensive US designs in
performance (Gemtech, AAC, SRT, ...) so 80 to 130 euros could be easily justified for the extra performance.

Anyway, those were my findings that day from firing a limited amount of silencers.

Since I didn't have any scientific measuring equipment available other than my own ears, I understand that all noise reports are subjective. However, they are accurately
reported in relation to eachother. (loudest - Still - SAK - SAK Improved & DIY KBaffle - Ase - quietest)

I was wondering if other members have friends themselves who have experience with commercially available European silencers, and what their findings are.
What is available, how does it perform, how is the design, what does it cost...

PS; Note that I would never want to encourage anyone to illegally import silencers into their home country when possession of silencers is prohibited.
( even though we are one happy continent, and people and goods are free to travel much of the Euro zone, without being subjected to border controls :rolleyes:)

Jacks Complete May 13th, 2008, 08:04 PM
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and the UK (for firearms up to .25 ) also allow the purchase of suppressors.Wrong. Under UK law anything that fires a projectile with more than 1J of energy is a firearm,
whether air, gas, electric or powder, if it has a barrel. It is simply that there is an exemption in the law for some air powered guns, and on those guns you can put a silencer. If
you are caught with a silencer on your (legally owned) .22 you will lose both, as well as your license, and likely your freedom too, as you will have committed several firearms
offences.

Other than that, a great post! If you post up some plans, that would be even greater. ;-)

BlackFalcoN May 13th, 2008, 08:26 PM
But as long as one CLAIMS that the suppressor will be used on an air rifle, the vendor can sell any -up to .25" diameter- suppressor you desire, without you having to present
any form of identification or permit/license, right ?

So instead of 'being legal on a .22 firearm', I should have said: ' you are able to purchase a commercial .22 silencer when it is claimed to go on an air rifle, without a permit/ID'
?

4.5 mm and 5.5 mm air rifle rounds are conveniently roughly the same in diameter as .17 HMR and .22 LR -- and most of the suppressors available in the UK such as the SAK
and Ase Utra, which have metal baffles, were intended to be utilized with firearm calibers (and the extra pressure).

I'll will post a couple of plans, schematics and pictures of the suppressor designs that I mentioned within the next couple of days.

Here is a YouTube movie I was able to find on the Ase Utra 22:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCuTCJX7im0
( mind that the testing conditions are inside a room, which would be significantly louder than in an outside environment; the dropping of the empty shells could be a dB
reference)

And a movie of the SAK Silencer, on a bolt action .22 LR rifle ( a rifle is, by design, quieter than a pistol )
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gic8ChhD2Y4

sbovisjb1 May 13th, 2008, 10:38 PM
Fantastic post. You consciously reviewed products and gave a fair representation of the law. I was actually interested in what you had to say! :)

Jacks Complete May 14th, 2008, 05:34 PM
BlackFalcon,

You are correct. Buy a nice looking solid silencer for your air rifle. Just be careful of gunshot residue (specifically the smell!) after you've used it, and obviously take it off your
firearm when not needed. Oh, and make sure your silencer threads match!

Personally, I'd buy a second-hand one, as that way you can say what you like. ;-)

BlackFalcoN May 14th, 2008, 05:55 PM
An economic suppressor with good attenuation for .22 rimfire pistols and rifles.
Silencer with one-piece aluminium baffle unit. Recommended for Air Rifle, .22 Rimfire, .22 Rimfire Magnum and .17 Hornady. Size 144mm x 35mm, Weight
220grams (varies according to source). Standard thread 1/2-20 UNF (available also 1/2-28 UNEF). Can be disassembled for cleaning.

Manufacturer's site:
http://www.ouluntyostokeskus.com/supressors.htm
( 37 euros in Finland !)

I have attached the internal design of the SAK Silencer (mark one and two), they can also be found on the FTP.

The alternating offset baffle chamber alignment causes turbulence in the gas flow, so more gas is trapped and cooled in each baffle chamber.

It should be possible for somebody with a drill press, couple of standard drills, one large diameter drill (around 18mm) & some round aluminum bar stock to replicate.

Other than the bullet path hole, which has to be 8 mm drilled straight down the bar stock in line with the barrel, the other dimensions are not critical (e.g. the baffle holes can
be 20mm or 17mm without causing failure, your silencer can be 200mm long, etc ).

The last 2 pictures are designs of aluminium monostacks which I shamelesly copied from another board dedicated to silencer design, and which should be feasable to construct
without a lathe...

If you are able to aquire one without too much effort, I don't see the the point in constructing your own when a commercial unit can be bought for as little as 37 euros.

Chris Werb May 14th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Good article. The situation with silencers/moderators in the UK was slightly misleading however. There is no limitation as to calibre - as well as being virtually obligatory on
sporting/vermin control rimfires they're increasingly common on fox/deer rifles - including those of over .25 calibre and on shotguns. Legally they fall into a number of
categories:

1) For use on 'off ticket' (i.e. sub 12ft/lb air rifle or 6ft/lb air pistol) are completely free to purchase. Ironically they may be the exact same item as a rimfire silencer.

2) For use on Section 2 (ie barrel at least 24" and fixed magazine not exceeding 2+1 capacity) shotgun - completely free to purchase although most RFDs (dealers) would
expect to see a shotgun certificate. If the silencer is integral to the shotgun it doesn't affect its legislative status.

3) For use on Section 1 firearms (air rifles over 12 ft/lb, rifles, non-repeater shotguns with barrels under 24", over 2+1 repeater shotguns with barrels over 24" and a few other
weapons I won't bore you with) you need to have the silencer entered on your Firearms Certificate. If the silencer is integral this does not apply - you can buy an integrally
silenced rifle with an ordinary .22 rifle FAC slot but few such rifles are made as they're very expensive and a pain to keep clean.

I personally have silencers authorised for all my seven section one firearms (two .22 FAC air rifles, two .22LRs, a .17HMR, a .222Rem and a .22 pump action shotgun) and
possess two SAKs and a DM80.

HTH

Chris

Jacks Complete May 17th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Chris, yes, all you say there is correct. It's all down to semantics and the attitude of the cock^H^Hp you bump in to, or who bumps in to you. If you know what to say, you
are likely to be fine. If you say the wrong thing, bingo, they get a free conviction by your own words.

If the permissions weren't messed up, I'd delete a few of those firearms from your post. It's not bright to put such easily trackable info in your posts on here. And if you think
the police won't use heresay evidence from a website against you, then you have far too much faith in them. Because trust me, they will.

Chris Werb May 20th, 2008, 07:29 AM
Point taken Jacks. I'll go back and delete the firearms. I personally don't have a problem posting under my real name because I'll never (here or anywhere else) advocate
anyone doing anything illegal (hence my non appearance on the Glock reactivation and Brocock conversion threads).

tmp May 26th, 2008, 01:39 PM
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I envy you Europeans who have reasonable access to these devices. No
such luck in the U.S.. It's a heavy duty felony to get caught with an
unregistered silencer here - same as fully automatic weapons. Good for about
15 years in federal prison, IIRC.

vexed May 26th, 2008, 05:42 PM
Here in Norway, you can get silencers for .22 rifles without filling out applications. And I do think that this applies to .22 handguns as well. If you are to buy silencers for higher
calibers, you may have to file an application. However, most policeoffices approve them, as violence including silencers have not been a problem here. Yet.

carbon13 June 4th, 2008, 12:51 AM
In the land of OZ silencers are illegal to buy/import, own etc... But we are allowed to buy firearms with threaded barrels and also can buy 'flash' suppressors. I've shot a H&K
9mm Match, with the barrel swapped for a USP Tactical barrel, with a flash suppressor.

Although the flash supressors are nothing like a silencer, or meant to be, they slightly flatten the sound of the shot and do reduce muzzle flash considerably. I even found it to
increase accuracy slightly, particularly with double taps (although this could be due to the extra muzzle weight that reduces the kick back).

HIM June 15th, 2008, 11:38 AM
Sound suppressors with baffles are nice, for sub-sonic ammo, but super sonic ammo is a whole different story. In fact, super sonic sound suppressors are extremely simple as
far as the internal design goes.

One day I was curious on how the military does it with high power rifles and I came across the attached patent. Instead of baffles and chambers, there is 1 chamber with
various angles on fore and aft surfaces. The distance between the two is tunable so that the sonic crack sound waves cancel each other out. A second chamber with baffles can
be added to slow the out rush of the gasses.

Sick Boy June 29th, 2008, 02:22 PM
Just a small correction: Here in Sweden, you need a license for silencers. Previously, they were quite hard to get, but a few years back they eased up on the restrictions a bit.
These days you can get a silencer for your class 1 and class 2 hunting rifles (class 1 being stuff like .308, .30-06 etc, class 2 being .223 etc). Getting a silencer for a .22 is still
hard. Also, the ones you can get can't dampen the sound to less than 115 or 125 decibels. Basically, the silencers are only there to make sure you won't go deaf, not to mask
the gunshot completely.

armchairsapper July 1st, 2008, 10:32 PM
Here's some improvised suppressor plans from my "library".

Setharier October 20th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Everyone in EU, it is time to get your silencer right now. The few only places silencers are still available unsuspected as buying a jug of milk is finland. But there will be
licensing/permban for silencers in 2009. You can order silencers from there 100% freely and safely everywhere in EU, there are no customs between ETA countries.

If you don't manage to get one, don't forget the plastic bottles working surprisingly well as silencers :)

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