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Torres Peng (Péng) They say in Tai Ji Quan that 4 ounces deflects 10,000 pounds. How can this be so ? First, you must have "Peng." Peng is why the Xing Yi Quan practitioners do the standing meditations of I Chuan (Yi Quan). The great Grand Master Guo Lien Ying would often be seen "standing" in the "Universal Post" position. Below are the nine points that Grand Master Kwok taught to do while doing I Chuan, Universal P ost or Ta Ji Quan forms. Ba Mén/Ba Jìn Eight Gates or Eight Energys(Strengths) The chief energies/strengths are the 4 primary hands or primary directions and t he four corner hands or four diagonal directions are for assistance. The four pr imary hands are the basic rule and the four corner hands are the alternatives. The four primary hands (four cardinal directions) 1. 1. Peng Jin (outward) - Ward off, Tai Chi's essential energy, power of fle xibility and resilience (born in the thighs), energy of defensive attack, under opponents hand. Attack. Evading is to attack. Yang or hard. 2. Lu Jin (inward) - Pull or Roll-back, Péng in reverse energy - energy of fr iction and rubbing, evade and adhere. Over opponents hand. Defense. Evading is t o attack. Yin or soft. (Peng changes to Lu is the inward drawing of silk, and Lu changes to Peng is the outward drawing of silk. These are the two basic energie s/strengths of Tai Chi.) 3. Ji Jin (outward) - Press, two hands when they are joined. Energy of two fo rces combined, when there’s not enough peng jin. Two energies combined as one, e nergy of dexterity. Adhering is to attack. 4. An Jin (inward) - Push, Listening energy, single and double finger / palm. Lower peng jin, used in sinking, creating pull force. The posture of an looks a s if one is preparing to push one or both hands. An from the front = peng jìn, A n from the left or right = lu jìn, An combined = ji jin. 5. The four corner hands (four diagonal directions) Cai Jin - Roll-pull, reve rse of ji jìn, incline downward towards the rear. Energy of two forces divided. Here use fingers for Tai Chi Chin Na techniques. Like picking fruit, one hand gr abs branch down and other grabs fruit. Outside hand is peng and below hand/grabb ing is cai. Don’t use cai horizontally toward the back, it must incline downward toward the back. Use cai on only one of the opponents arms, not both. 6. Lie Jin - Split, Tai Chi s small strike energy. Begins quickly a few inche s from opponent. Energy of striking (first line of defense). When lie is used by one hand the other hand must have inside drawing of silk energy to keep the bod y in balance. The hands can mutually interchange their use. Lie is used to draw silk outward toward the opponent when you are very close. This strike can t stop half way you re committed, so strike quickly and very close the body. 7. Zhou Jin - Elbow strike by moving the arms up & down (Lie s second line of defense). After you over extend yourself and cai and lie won t work, now use zh ou, elbow strike after wrist or from wrist. 8. Kao Jìn - Shoulder strike. Used in a slanting direction, a strike by the w hole body, body strike (Lie s third line of defense). Again used after over exte nding yourself. Shoulder strike kao, knee strike kao, stomach strike kào, back s trike kào. Kào is used when the hands and feet are tied up. * Peng drawn inside = Lu, Peng combined = Ji, Peng drawn down = An, Peng div ided = Cai, Peng followed by a strike = Lie, Peng turning and elbow striking = Z hou, and Peng turning and body striking = Kao.
The twelve rules for developing Peng From Guo 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. Keep the body centered Sink the shoulders Sink the elbows Keep the wrists straight Keep the butt tucked in Keep the knees bent Step light (empty step) Feet must be empty and solid Top of the head turns The back rotates Waist (tight) connected not slanted Lower belly rises
* First point: 2 arms connect above elbow and below shoulder * Second point: 2 thighs follow each other * Third point: Back bow collects energy at the chest (chest is neither conca ve nor convex). The Nine rules for developing Péng From Kwok 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Crown as if suspended from a thread Eyes looking into the distance (eye level) Ears listening inward Tongue to the roof of the mouth Head as if balanced on a pin Neck and back straight (up and down) Sink the chest, raise the back Abdominal breathing Drop the pelvis
Wu Fang Five Directions 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Forward (metal) Backward (wood) Step Left (water) Step Right (fire) Center (earth)
14 Examples of Bu (stances or steps) 1. Breaking Step - like Tai Chi stance, used to half step and twist so ½ step and you can sink then twist (toes come up) then make contact and toes go down, then strike. Frontal attack. 2. Backward Step - step back with toes then rest of foot (step back repulse m onkey). 3. Rolling Step - when the foot turns as a result of following the body. The sole of the foot creates friction. Foundation of Neutralizing energy. 4. Rising Step - going to a rooster stance, knee kick. 5. Sinking Step - stepping down with foot from a rooster stance. 6. Withdrawal Step - stepping to the side, from inside to outside. 7. Collecting Step - stepping from the outside to the inside. 8. Curved Step - outside step forward for attack or defense. 9. Slanting Step - stepping diagonal to left or right. 10. Horse Step - horse stance, L stance, has double sinking step. 11. Fishing Step - horse step to the side where the hand and thigh help each o ther, cloud hands.
12. Empty Step - Empty stance while top of body rises and inside receives (lif t the plams). 13. Turn the Body Over Step - putting spine in position to twist for a strike. 14. Pushing Step - front foot advances and the rear foot follows (forward step ping and leaping forward). * Note Step 1 & 3 (Breaking and Rolling) are the Foundation of Tai Chi Foot Work.© 2000 Xiao Jiu Tian or Little Universe Cycle Another postural point is to touch the tip of the tongue to the roof of the mout h. This is called closing the gap in the Xiao Jiu Tian or Little Universe Cycle. This cycle is the conception vessel in the front of the body and the Governing Vessel in the back of the body which connect at GV1 (Long Strength) and CV1 (Mee ting of Yin). Both end up at the mouth where they don t touch, hence the tongue touching the roof of the mouth closes the loop at GV27 (Correct Exchange) and CV 24 (Receiving Fluid). Tai Ji Quan Hand Positions Mainly speaking, there are only four hand positions widely used in Tai Ji Quan, three are depicted below, the hook, fist and tai ji palm. The fourth would only be used while wielding a jien or double edge sword often called a tai ji sword. Parts of the Fist: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Eye, 5. Heel. Parts of the Tai Chi Palm: 1. Back, 2. Heart, 3. Tip, 4. Edge. Parts of the Hook: 1. Back, 2. Face, 3. Heart, 4. Tip. Tai Ji Quan Eight Basic Stances Positions * * * * * * * * Tai Tai Tai Tai Tai Tai Tai Tai Chi Chi Chi Chi Chi Chi Chi Chi Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Bow and Arrow Horse Stance L or Half Horse High Lotus Empty Tiger Rooster Tai Chi Stance
Jian Hua Tai Ji Quan (Tai Chi Chuan Short Form) In 1956 the Chinese government issued a simplified set of tai chi quan based on the most popular sequences or moves of the Yang School. It consists of 24 moves which progress from the easy to the difficult, and takes about 5 minutes to comp lete. The following are page was taken from the booklet on Tai Chi Chuan - Short Form written by Grandmaster Torres. This page is part of the preface and is the names of the moves. 1. 2. 3. 4. Opening Wild Horse Separating the Mane White Crane Flapping The Wings Brush The Knee, Twist the Step
is fairly different from the traditional "Ta i ji Thirteen Saber Play. When practicing the Tai ji saber. stick up. 9. wipe. Block. One must look straight forward and should not look sideways during practice. such as split. footwork and body movement to form a short weapon ex ercise. But. shop. digestive system and metabolism in general. thrust. Practicing the Tai Chi Broadsword or Saber." The form described in this chapter. as if it is carrying somethi ng on top of the head. cardiov ascular system. Howeve r one must avoid looking stiff simply because the head is held upright and the c hin is withdrawn. The Tai ji family contains the fist. Chin must be withdrawn. Although all these exercises have distinguished sty les. is the same as practicing fist or op en hand forms.5. the head should not be slanted or facing upward. 24. which is "bearing firmness in gen tleness." Tai ji Saber is based on the attacking moves of tradi tional short saber play. this does not mean that the body is stiff and without any flexibility. 2. hack. Tai Ji Dao Exercise Method 1. spine and t ail bone must be straigh and not inclined. During the practice. 20. When practicing the Tai ji saber. hold up. they all share one common characteristic. 18. and combines with Wu shu s unique steps. but also has Tai ji s characteristics. Breath out through the mouth and breath in through the nose naturally. 23. saber/broad sword. one s body must be straight. and movements are continuous and nonstop. simple pus h hands and big pull/stroke. the so called "push against suspension" technique. 16. 10. "dance with saber" is more interesting to practice than being e mpty handed. intercept. 17. when the changes in movement are encountered. cut. 12. hang. 6. gentle . 22. Parry. the so called "empty collar top strength" technique. respiratory system. 21. Therefore. Playing The Pi P ar Step Back Repulse the Monkey Grasp the Bird’s Tail (left and right) Single Whip Cloud Hands Single Whip Pat the Horse (High Pat on Horse) Right Heel Kick Double Wind Strikes the Temples Left Heel Kick Snake Creeping in the Grass (Low Single Whip) Golden Rooster Standing Snake Creeping in the Grass (Low Single Whip) Golden Rooster Standing Fairy Lady Weaving Needle at the Bottom of the Sea Fan Arm Turn Around. 8. 11. flexible and continuous. it is also beneficial to one s nervous system. sword. Pay attention to loosening the neck muscles when holding the h ead upright. Punch Close Like Shut Cross Hands Tai Ji Dao Tai Chi Broad Sword Form The following are pages was taken from the booklet on Tai Ji Dao (Tai Chi Broad Sword Form). It has attacking elements. the body must be able to change by bringing in the che . block and sweep. 14. The tongue leans against the roof of the mouth. pus h. 15. In the meantime. carry. needles hidden in cotton. swing up. 13. 7. head held upright. The mouth natural ly opens and closes. spear. 19.
the so called "once one body part moves. but it will be hard to take full advantage of what the exercise has to offer. the maximum relaxation is not equal to slack. while the right leg is empty and just touching the floor. In the mean time. one move must follow the previous one. decreasi ng the value of this exercise. If you do a half squat . T he so called emptiness does not mean "hollow. it simply means "substantial. speed should be maintained the same from the beginning to the end. T he body and four limbs movements follow each other and coordinate with each oth er. When practicing Tai ji saber." Beginners do not have to obey this rule. to support the bones with the lowest level of tension of muscl es. losing its straight up position. movements must be complete and continuous. But "slow" do es not mean "obtuse" or "overly gentle. there are no parts that don t move. Especially the coordination between the saber. When practicing Tai ji saber. i t should be harmonious and consistent. do not ov er tighten the foot. and foot work. withdraw and make changes. meaning to use minimum force to push movement . Kicks should be released slowly. when bending knees to squat. Otherwise. 6. When practicing Tai ji saber. Do not think abou t other things when practicing. Your mind must b e focused. Raise the foot quickly and drop the foot lightly. straightening of the back. sinking of the shoulders and the turning of the waist. the left leg is so lid. if breathin g becomes unnatural then moves become unnatural. otherwise. 10. muscles and joint that may be relaxed to the maximum extent. It is s aid. and therefore violating the "no leani ng" rule. Although like Tai ji fist. sinking the shoulders and turning the waist. But. Do not allow th e movements to affect your natural breathing. When practicing Tai ji saber. When k icking. and vise versa. Although sometimes a short pause is necessary." The strength still exists. The so called solidnes s does not mean over using force." Therefore. one needs to be slow not fast. natural breathing is a must. one must use round and flexible strength not stiff strength and clumsy force. and attention be paid to every detail of the moves. it is overusing force. Do not be fast at one time and slow at another." It must be avoided that hands are moving bu t the feet are not or the saber is moving but the hand is not. normal diaphragmatic breathing is suitable. fingers are straight and slightly bent. 8. Tendons and muscles on the legs and foot should be relaxed. 9." Theses two problems need to be avoided. In the meantime. silence must be maintained. half squatting causes the body to lean forward. Beginners must pay attention to these. When practicing Tai ji saber. 5. When practicing Tai ji saber. toes pointing forward. it will be difficult to correct later. In the mean time. relax those tendon s. No stops are in between m oves. the body should have the flexibility of bringing in the chest. When practicing Tai ji saber. Tai Ji Jian . 4. But. not to completely stop. 3. the practice becomes casual. palms are slightly open. making breathing and movement d ifficult to coordinate with each other. in other words. "Round and flexible strength" means when your body and four limbs move naturally or in a standing position. You may exercise a lot. You do not need to practice rising and sinking of the diaphragm. otherwise. The shoulders should sink.st. joints and muscles on both arms should relax . When the weight falls on the left leg. and the body will become stiff . Tai ji saber strives for deep breathing that reaches the "Dan Tian Point. The elbows kept hanging down and always bent to for m an arc. you only need to squat slightly. hand method. When practicing Tai ji saber. stepping forward and backward must be perfor med like a cat walking. straightening the back. 7. when encountered with opening and closing changes. it is simply to slightly sl ow down. making the entire set of saber play a si ngle movement from the opening to the closing posture. and it has the potential to stretch. the two legs must be able to distinguish emp tiness from solidness. keep the bottom of your foot flat.
cut )split). Georgia Willow Leaf Palm by Mar ilyn Cooper Parts of the Fist: 1. 2. The last page is page one of the list of the names of the first 25 moves. 2. The index finger is straight and leans against the s word handle. the Hook. Shao Lin Quan Eight Basic Stances . Parts of the Willow Leaf Palm: 1. Continuously practicing these postures may imp rove your health and lay foundation for practicing other types of swordplay. The movement is concise and easy to practice. The first page is part of the pref ace and is the names of the moves writen in Grandmaster Peter Kwok s own hand. 5. there are some of the hand positions widely used in Shao Lin Qu an. the Dragon Claw. T ai Chi Quan 3. Heart. Shao Lin Quan Art Work: Guy Robinson of Atlanta. 2. Edge. Tai Chi Quan Shao Lin Quan Hand Positions Mainly speaking." Essentials: How tight one should hold the handle is determined by one bein g able to thrust the sword horizontally and split with the sword horizontally. Essentials: T he sword must be held tight and the sword edge should not touch the body. Tip. Left Hand Sword Holding Method The left hand tightly holds the hand guard with the thumb pointing downward. T his is followed by material also found in the preface. 3. Use the thumb and index finger to hold the handly tightly. Use the bottom joint of the thumb and ou ter fringe of the palm to control the sword’s movements. The thumb then presses on the nails of the third and little fingers. thrust. Heel. Hold the handle tightly with the middle finger. The entire set includes a variety of foot methods and sword methods. 3. th e index finger needs to lean against the hand guard to control the precision of the sword movement. Heart. sweep. and wipe. 4. Back. Back. the Willow Leaf Palm. Sword Finger / Sword Hand Stretch the index and middle fingers. Tip. 2. swing. hold up. carry. block. Parts of the Hook: 1. the third and little fingers bend toward the center of the palm. intercept. six are depicted below. Face. Fist (vertica l and horizontal). The entire set can be divided into six sections each containing 8 major postures . including the opening and c losing positions. Sometimes it is necessary to increase the elasticity and flexibility of the sword s edge. 4. The index finger and the little finger hold it loosely. and the Tiger Claw. Right Hand Sword Holding Method 1. such as w ithdraw. The other three fingers loosely hold the handle. This method is also called "holding the sword alive. Eye. strike. Heart. There are a total of 54 postures. Face. 3.(Tai Chi Double Edge Sword Form) The following are pages were taken from the booklet on Tai Ji Jian (Tai Chi Doub le Edge Sword Form) written by Master Torres. poke (tap). Back. It can be practiced to an eight count cadence and is suitable for both individual and group practice. the third finger and the thumb. hang. The sword leans against the back of the left forearm. 4. middle finger and the third finger point upward. Tai Chi Quan This set of sword is the original Tai Ji Sword Form. Tai Ch i Quan 2. while the little finger. Basic Movements 1.
saddle (thumb) 4. pelvis) 2. Immovable . vertebrae. ellipsoid and gliding (wrist) 5. tendon grabbing 3. * Na . flexion. leg. hinge (elbow) 3. blood vessel grabbing 4. ankle. The Chin Na Dui Da form is a two man set with six different roads .have joint space filled with synovial fluid. extension much better than forces of rotation.* * * * * * * * Shao Shao Shao Shao Shao Shao Shao Shao Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin Lin Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Quan Bow and Arrow Horse Stance L or Half Horse High Lotus Empty Tiger Rooster Lotus Qin Na Dui Da/Chin Na (Capture/Seize Two Man Fighting Form) The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan . strikes to and seizing of vital points 2. * Chin .Chin Na Dui D a/Qin Na Dui Da. Ball and socket (shoulder) 2. based on joint structure 2. acupuncture meridians (chi meridians) * Applied Chin Na utilizes 1.(locking) the movement of joints against their normal range of moti on. striking 3. axial skeleton (head. locking * Bones 1. Joints can withstand the pressure of compression. * Chin Na Principles 1. joint locks * Chin Na has 4 main branches or components 1. therefore Chin Na techniques twist the joints to cause greater pain and injury. kicking 2. fingers. ribs. and pivotal (neck) Movable joints are traversed by blood vessels and nerves. wrist.(seizing) of the vital pints disrupting or blocking the energy flow. throwing 4. lo wer leg. Chin Na injure liga ments. cartilaginous ends and are freely movable but held in place by ligaments. hand. Movable . appendicular skeleton (arms. blood vessel network 3. foot.fibrous and cartilaginous 2. * Types of movable joints 1. * Joint types 1. and if twisted in the right fashion will interrupt the integrity of these structures causing additiona . This page is part of the preface and gives the backgound of the two man form. forearms.
and the last page is page one of the illusstrated form. While compiling this set or form. because it impels the body to thoroughly develop. In orde r to meet the demand of readers who study Wu Shu. has become a sport that is liked by the public. * Golden Silk Entwines the Wrist . mistakes are unavoidable. It is suitable to practi ce for athletes that have reached a certain level of techniques. eye position. precise. body movement. turns. therefore pos ing different requirements for different exercises. Cha bù lán n á gong bù zhong píng zha qiang. rolling. balance. and each rout ine has its own style and characteristic in terms of its movement.in an anchored wrist grab the fingers are force over the wrist and down. a high level of difficulty and detailed requirements. For example. * Reactive motion . The first page is from the forward. . the authors of the set have adopted traditiona l techniques of a variety of Wh Shu styles. footwork. Swing leg and jump up. 2. the preparatory moves and mo ves 1.l pain and injury. Due to lack of experience and our limited knowledge in all aspects. then parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow. the second page is page one of the list of move names. et c. Correctly practicing various routines concurrently makes Wu Shu more valuable in terms of body-building. hand position. as well as innovative techniques. Jia Zu Qiang Shù Tu Jie Group A Spear Skills Picture Illustration Spear Form The traditional Chinese Martial Arts (Wu Shu).refers to the resultant motion or action caused in respo nse to the locking of a joint. different routines have different technical requirements. Pu bù liàng zhang. Section One 1. * Push the spear down with feet together. Opening Move (Preparatory Movements) Yu Bei Dong Zuo * Preparatory form. The entire basic practice routines are divided into Group A and Group B. and s trength." for general learners to use as a reference. light and quick. Al though all Wu Shu routines are based on jumps. Bìng bù xià tui quang. a lot of changes. Their technical skills have also been rapidly developed and improved. leg movem ent. Reader are welcome to provi de us with comments to allow us to improve ourselves in the future. At present. Group B s level of difficulty and strength is comparable to traditional technical routines used to improve overall technical skills. Qiang Shu (Spear Play Skill Form) The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan Group A Spear S kills Picture Illustration Spear Form (Jia Zu Qiang Shù Tú Jie). the numbe r of people who participate in the Wu Shu sport is increasing nationwide everyda y.refers to the locking of a joint making that limb a leve r for the next joint. * Flash the palm in Tiger Stance. after going through continuous de velopment. * Coupling motion . Yù bèi shì. foot position. we have transcribed this set o r form "Spear Form Basic Training Study Book. while spear play involves expansive movem ents. Group A is more difficult and requires more vigorous movement. sword play chan ges rapidly. 2 and 3 of Secton One. This is countered by upward piercing of the divi ne lock. High Lotus and parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow.
like the flyi ng dragon and the dancing phoenix. and the sequenc e of movements.Barehand Form Posture Names II Post New Topic Post A Reply profile register preferences faq search UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic next oldest topic Author Topic: Posture Names II Audi Regular Contributor posted 05-28-2001 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Audi Click Here to Email Audi Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote I want to continue an exploration of posture names I began on an earlier thread . the practice looks agile. 6. This set of double swordplay is named Dragon-Phoenix Double Swords because when proficient. circle the spear. Section Two 11. Circle foot to Rooster stance and thrust the spear in Bow and Arrow. 4. Although it maintains the basic requirements of traditional swordplay with respe ct to body movement. Cha Fist’s Forest-P iercing Double Swords and Cao Fist’s Dragon Phoenix Double Swords. Tiào xie bù bào qiang. 7. Step back. on e may make appropriate changes or select portions of the movement. 10. The second page is from the list o f move names from the form. This set of double swords is based on the Green-Dragon Double Swords of Cha Fist and Plum-Blossom Double Swords of Six-Combination Fist. Dash spear in Empty stance. Tí xi hào. hold spear in Sitting Lotus Stance. hand position. parry downward with spear. 9. Jump up to High Lotus. . Tap the spear. to ease the level of difficulty. Gu xíng bù rào bhán qiang. turn the body. One may say it combines the strong points of all styles and make s itself a new set of double swordplay that not only inherits from the tradition .Long Feng Shu ang Jian (Dragon-Phoenix Twin Double Edge Swords).Gài tiào bù lán ná gong bù zhong píng zha qiang. but also is creative. and eye movement. and the third page is the opening move and first few moves of the form itself. Xu bù beng qiang. Jump up. The first page is part of the preface and gives the backgound of the form. xià bo qia ng. 5. This set of double swordplay is suitable practice for people who have mastered t he basics of fists. 3. then slash with spear in Low Inside Empty Stance . Chè bù huí shen gen bù pi qiang. For the beginner. Lift the knee to Rooster. to make it more convenient to practice. Press the spear in Empty stance. this set of swor dplay has made adjustments in terms of which movements to adapt. Tiào Cha bù lán ná gong bù zhong píng zha qiang. robust and gentle. with leg pressed behind the knee (Lazy Rooster Stance). Xu bù ya qiang. 8. Long Feng Shuang Jian (Dragon-Phoenix Twin Double Edge Swords) The following are pages taken from the booklet on Shao Lin Chuan . Again I invite comment from anyone interested. then parry block thrust the spear in a Bow & Arrow. graceful. Tai Chi Chuan . Rào s hàng bù gong bù zhong píng zha qiang. based on the individual’s situation. Kòu tui dian qiang. footwork. It was developed assimi lating some of the moves from Ba Guà’s Dragon Double Swords. Single walking step.
I know tha t I myself am very inconsisent in my choice of words and spellings. or i mproper. or problems posed by some of the English nomenclature that is often chosen. Even more important is that the important aspects of T ai Chi are univers al and not limited to the expression of any particular language. but have always wondered if I was missing something. consistency with other translatio ns. but also in the angles of attack and the e mblematic martial application. but then realized there was no prior foot pivot whenever the posture follows an Empty Stance (e. true translation of even simple phrases is impossible be tween any but the most closely related languages. because of t he perceived convenience of the context. Since deepening our knowledge of T ai Chi often involves close parsing of phrase s or concepts originally expressed in Chinese. In the few cases where I have found the character with this or a similar reading (e. literal accuracy. Moreover. The character rendered here as "ao3" seems to be fairly rare and to have many variant pronunciations (e. What is possible is to interpr et the meaning of a phrase for a particular context. As far as I can tell these stepping techniques are ident ical. Does anyone have an explanation? When exactly does the "twist" occur in the movement and in what part of the body ? I used to think it was in the feet. given the consistentl y different terminology. and what exactly are the proper hand and wrist shapes? Jin4 Bu4 Ban1 Lan2 Chui2 (Step forward Deflect Parry and Punch) Is there a difference between "Step forward" (Jin Bu) and "Step Up" (Shang bu)? The phrase "step forward" seems to occur consistently before certain postures. implications. aesthetics. In my opinion. Translation usually involves compromise between many different goals: staying wi th the familiar. Can anyone confirm that the final postures are id entical mirror images and that the hand shapes are the same? Are the "palm metho ds" also identical. Depending on how one counts.One thing I want to clarify is that I do not mean to offer disrespect to anyone s choice of translation or interpretation in any particular instance.. Mathews’ Chines e-English Dictionary)..g. In doi ng so. and niu4). I find it helpful to engage in ex ercises such as this one to tease out possible hidden meanings.g. Any idea s? Shou3 Hui1 Pi2 Pa (Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa) I understand from the Yangs video that this posture differs from Lifting Hands not only in reversing right and lift. etc. Here are the new postures: Bai2 He4 Liang4 Chi4 (White Crane Cools its wing(s)) I have also heard this posture referred to as "Crane Stands on Rock. ignorant. a nd "step up" in others.g. yao3. this move has a minimum of four distinct arm techni . I have y et to find a dictionary that gives "twist" as a meaning. White Crane)." Does anyon e know the origin of this name? You4/Zuo3 Lou1 Xi1 Ao3 Bu4 (Right/Left Brush Knee and Twist Step) The "twist" in this posture name has long been a mystery to me linguistically an d martially. especially without knowing what purpose lies behind a particular transl ation. "break (off)" seems to be the closest meaning I can find. I do not mean to suggest that any other choices are wrong. ao4.
From other reading. Does anyone have an expl anation for the resemblence? From the little I know of Chinese dialect history a nd general principles of phonetic change. or just one of them? Ru2 Feng1 Si4 Bi4 (As if sealed (and) like closed)(Also translated as "Apparent Closure") This posture name e ideas raised by Make an "x" with r closed with the was discussed on an earlier thread. The punch is fairly clear . After "As if Sealing and Like Closing. but it varies in many of the details and in its position in the form. Any disagreements? I also note that this posture name sounds suspiciously close to the name of the fourth Posture of the first and second Chen Routines: 60% Open and 40% Closed (L iu4 Feng1 Si4 Bi4). I understand the Chinese term "lan" (usually translated in this movement as "parry") to refer to obstructing and barring the opponent s mo vements and so assume that refers to the left arm jamming an opponent s right ar m into his or her body. Again." This posture is then apparently named for its shape. and to the right (resembling a back fist) as one steps forward with the right foot? I note that many translate this movement in a way that includes the phrase "Deflect downward. that any substi tution would be deliberate." Does the right arm do two "deflections. Shi2 Zi4 Shou3 (Cross Hands) The character for ten in Chinese is the same as an "x. Does an yone know the reasons for the different treatment? I also note that many Yang Styles have a difference between the final position o f this posture and the Brush Knees.ques. but Yang Zhen Duo does not. Bao4 Hu3 Gui1 Shan1 (Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain) My first reaction to considering this posture name was surprise that we go from something so prosaic as "X-Hands" to something so evocative as "embracing mounta in tigers. perhaps incorrectly. I am a little skeptical that “liu4” an d “ru2” could be confused and have assumed. and probably wo uld have been called "X-Hands" if T ai Chi had been invented in an English speak ing country." except oriented like a p rinted "t. This posture also involves a two handed push." Does anyone know if this posture name contains any specific literary allusions or antecedents from folk tales? I also note that Yang Jwing Ming s books have a different sequence of posture na mes than what is described here. does anyo ne know the reasons behind the difference? Are different applications envisioned . d ownward. He ha s no separate name for the sequence here called Embrace Tiger and Return to the Mountain and simply includes it under the following Grasp Sparrows Tail. yet only three terms: deflect. rather than unintentional." Yang Jwing Ming has "Embrace Tiger and Return to the Mountain" and "Close T ai Chi" (He Tai Ji). " one downward to the left after the left foot pivot and then another forward." but portray an application that would involve scooping up an opponent s thigh or leg." Does this refer to the same two deflections. parry. and punch. What about the deflection (ban)? Is there truly a differ ence between a "deflection" (ban) and a "parry" (lan)? What I understand from the Yangs video is that the right arm does the "deflecti on" and the "left" arm does the "parry. Together the two postures cover the same territory as "Cross Hands. I think I can summarize th describing the spirit hinted at by this posture name as being: the arms as if sealing off a crime scene and then push the doo arms. The mechanics of the movements also differ some what.
Xie2 Fei1 Shi4 (Diagonal Flying Posture) Does the slant refer to the angle of the foot movement. the movement is changed so that the right palm forms a Standing Palm (I think that is the correct term). one of my dictionary defines this phras e in effect as a metaphor for an impossible task. rather than a Hoo k Hand/Crane s Beak.. Can anyone add to or correct what I have said? Shan4 Tong1 Bei4 (Fan through the Back) Does anyone have anything of interest to say about this posture name? Zhuan3 Shen1 Pie1 Shen1 Chui2 (Turn Body and Flip Fist Past Body) (also named Tu rn Body and Chop with Fist) I find this posture name unusual. this lends credence to a view that the for m postures had definite linking components and may have been separated and named only as afterthoughts. perhaps one using the arm to deflect a kick whereas the other using a pull dow n (cai) technique to deflect a punch? Zhou3 Di3 (Kan4) Chui2 (Fist (Looks) under (the) Elbow) Yang Zhen Duo s sequence of names does not include here a Slanting Single Whip t hat other Yang styles have. the elbow is the practitioner s? You4/Zuo3 Dao4 Nian3 Hou2 (Right/Left Repel/Repulse Monkey(s)) I believe the Chinese in this phrase is ambiguous as to whether the practitioner is repelling a monkey or whether the practitioner is repelling something else i n a monkey-like way (Backward Repelling Monkey). Does anyone know the reasons behind the difference? Does an yone have a martial explanation of the Standing Palm in this sequence? I have heard differences of opinion as to whether the "elbow" referred to in thi s posture is the practitioner s or the opponent s. because the movement has four separate compone nts. Indeed. If nothing else. I have read elsewhere. the most yang part of the posture (the left hand strike) and the ending position (the closed-fist Rol l Back) are unnamed. the spirit of t he posture seems pretty clear. but I cannot fi . however. Would all agree that for Yang Zhen Duo s form at least. but actually is formed by the right palm attacking the opp onent s lower body. This indeed is the application that Yang Zhen Duo shows in h is book. Moreover. The name describes the first two components. This would imply that the "needle" is not on the floor. In either case. to the angle of the arms in the final posture. Zuo3 You4 Yun2 Shou3 (Left-Right Cloud Hands) Anyone have something interesting about this name? Gou1 Tan4 Ma3 (High Pat on Horse) "High Pat on Horse" is the standard translation for this phrase. however. or to both? Hai3 Di3 (Lao1) Zhen1 ((Picking/Dredging up) Needle at Sea Bottom) I used to think that this posture referred to the delicate movement required to reach way down to pick up a pin. that Sea Bottom is a Chinese medical or martial arts reference to the pelvic or pubic region.
Audi IP: 12. Parry and Punch. Apparently. Play the Lute/Pipa as opposed to lift hands step up. in one dictionary t he phrase: tan4 shen1 (stretch out the body))." I presume the reference would be t o the position of bending over to plant a rice seedling. If interpreted as "fall ing punch. corrections. As I understand it. the word "tan" has nothing to do with "pat. I will ask questions about other postures at an other time.158. however.78." (I see. comments." which I have seen in some li stings of the posture names? Do these names have something to do with the presen ce or absence of "fa jin"? Do ball-of-the-foot kicks exist in Yang Zhen Duo s T ai Chi? Do others ever kick with the ball of the foot? Jin4 Bu4 Zai1 Chui2 (Step Forward and Punch Downward) As I understand it "zai chui" literally means either "planting punch" or "fallin g punch. In so me versions the hands in Play the Lute seemed to be more upright if my memory se rves me. but maybe some of what i have been taught can be of some help. Deflect downward.gure out why it is done so. I will have to check to see if i have missed something. the translation shoul d be something like "High Search for the Horse(s)" and refers to "spying out one s horse s on the high plains of China." If interpreted as "planting punch." would the reference be to the bent over position and direction of th e punch. Left Heel Kick) Does "Deng Jiao" really mean "heel kick. . I don t know if there are real "answers" to a number of your questons. Zhuan3 Shen1 Zuo3 Deng1 Jiao3 (Turn Body. but isn t th is a bit of unnecessary Chinglish? Shouldn t this really be "Separate Feet"? Als o. Could this be what the "high" part is referring to? You4/Zuo3 Fen1 Jiao3 (Right/Left Separate Foot) Separate Foot is the standard English translation for this posture. I think the difference here is mainly that your are comming into them from diffe rent positions. I have been taught that the final positions are b asically the same. This would fit with the some of the different applications. or perhaps to striking the head or leg of a fallen or falling opponent? If there is sufficient interest. I look forward to any informed or uninformed opinions. or additions to anything I have set forth above. Respectfully submitted." or simply "Press the foot out"? How do es "deng jiao" differ from "ti1 jiao3 or ti1 tui3. The application will vary due to the circumstances that arise fr om those preceeding positions." Do I have this wrong? The pictures of Yang Cheng Fu performing this posture seem to show him rising up slightly. why are the slanting bow-step Roll Backs that precede the kicks not deserving of posture names? I find it hard to believe that they are merely convenient tra nsitions to the kicks." but rather means "search out.238 Michael Regular Contributor posted 05-29-2001 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Michael Click Here to Email Michael Edit/Delete Message Reply w /Quote Audi.
it is not single whip until the step is taken. That is why it becomes a fist at the end.. I know this would be awfully hard to do in print as I am sure you would agree. The final position puts t he right hand into position for either a parry across to the left or the arm bre ak as we transition into deflect downward. In that ca se the blade is being held upright and moved across the body. in the applications I know the Right hand later is sla nting in and down for a strike to the ribs if it is not needed for a defensive f uction. Fist under elbow The "standing palm" has the same function as a parry as it does in Step forward. feel around for it on t he lowest one and you will get the idea. Of course the right arm can be used differently. the waist begins to turn and. i don t have any answers but i hope some of my thoughts are useful to you. So there actually is no DIAGONAL single whip until one steps out on the diagonal..As the opponent aims a left/right at your face (or whaerever) the deflect is str iking the inside of the right arm bringing it down. I do disagree that the elbow spoken of is yours. Anyway. If you think of the path of the right a rm after parrying--it may not have the ability to bruise or break a rib but it c an indeed a affect a nerve. In the first case we have o ur left elbow held higher and the palm up as we are going into fist under elbow and not COMPLETING single whip on the diagonal. and punch. I believe the names refer to the final position (a nd the movement that got you there) not the transitions. only a transition int o it. Why would it be? Maybe you can explain your take on the application (esp. parry. deflect downward. In the second instance we form a cranesbeak and the left elb ow is low as we are to indeed go into a single whip. When time permits i will come back to your more or your questions.151. I am not sure if I understand your description of Turn and Chop with Fist. You will find it in a number of places in the Yang sword form. It is not single whip until it i s completed. [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-29-2001). the use of the right hand that become s a fist)---sorry. These are two very distinctly differe nt movements. the movement of the right fist after completion of t he "chop" technique is the continuation of the waist that brings the left hand i n for the palm strike (or however you need to use it). So whether you think of the elbow of being yours or the opponent depends on the app lication you envision. The Parry is actually from t he outside of the left arm pushing across. Turn and Chop with Fist.. Could you help me with what you call a "Closed fist roll back"? To me and in my experience. The form of Yang Zhen Dou does not have ONE application..] IP: 38. Below the elbow along the the rib is a nerve that when struck will deliver great pain. This also is a position that can b .137 Michael Regular Contributor posted 05-29-2001 05:01 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Michael Click Here to Email Michael Edit/Delete Message Reply w /Quote Audi. The parry motion is exactly what you find in fencing and all sword work. Do not be misled that if one example of technique is presented that that is THE way it move is to be thought of.. or should i say. Diagonal single whip In both instances in the form after Carry tiger there is what is called "transit ional single whip".144..
just ideas. I m not at all sure what is preferred in this usage. the move is described as simply as possible. [This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-29-2001). I was taught that they are mirror images of one . I think the "twist" may come from the shoulders being at a different angle from the hips. and Play the Guitar/Fiddle for the posture you ca ll Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa. I am alwa ys curious and like to learn. t hey are not to be construed as authoritative.. cop opponent with fist an d strike with palm. Be glad that the names do not describe all the transitional techniques. although some of the ideas expressed here are derived from these schools. Here are some of my thoughts and opini ons. Hand Strums the Lute/Pipa : The names I learned are: Play the Harp and Raise Hands and Step Up to Standin g Harp for Lifting Hands.] IP: 208.. It noted a preferred st ep. step up and Play the lute. This was always obvious on the phy sical level but this is interesting in terms of your name questions. press down. In one way of applying "Turn and chop with fist" we coul d very well describe it as Turn. stepping forward and punching giving you the option of using the ar m break transition or to punch depending on the actions of the opponent. block up.50. and twist step where the hand th at s forward is opposite from the foot that s forward.because they are transitional te chniques in MOST cases.80..at least as they are taught. Remember. I think that the twist step is more natural to u s because that s what we do when we walk. the only difference is the dist ance between the two hands and the step for the punch. The names that I use are from the Yang Style as it s come down through the Tung Family with influence from Marshall Ho o..e used to punch from with the rotation of the waist bringing the right toe out t o the right. Twist step: I read an article a long time ago that discussed this. The Cho p with fist is Deflect downward Parry and Punch. "Separate feet" I also would like you to explain your "roll backs" before the kicks? Pardon my i gnorance but among other things is not the main movement before the final waist turn an arm lock? I have never had it described as a roll back before. That is why I think they are not. Thanks again. Since i do not read or speak Chinese it is always interesting what those who do come up with. i don t prtetend to have any answers. where the same hand and foot are forward.71 DavidJ Regular Contributor posted 06-01-2001 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for DavidJ Click Here to Email DavidJ Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Q uote Hi Audi.. One is more offensive o riented and the other more defensive oriented." What is important is described. The point of that description and the my variation of the standard Cop with fist is the difference in giving these nearly identical positions different names is almost the same as we find in Lift hands.. I think that in a number of the instances you bring up. It depends where you are coming from and the technique..
but consider anything wi thin range of the fist to be fair game. High Pat on a Horse : The image I get is the left hand is under the horse s chin and the right hand ru bs him between the eyes. Step Up. and the side of the foot. Punch Under Elbow : I do this move ending with the fist under my own elbow. Strike. Diagonal Flying Posture : The name I was taught was Slanting Flying. Bruce Lee used Play the Harp quite a bit. Is this possibly a reference to Dim Mak? It can be used for pickin g up a rock or a stick. Then step over the un Carry Tiger To Mountain : The final posture that I do is the same as Brush Knee.. Separation of the Feet . However I ve seen it done where the right hand drops 8" to 12" lower in Play the Guitar. . Step Up here means a turn step. > Do others ever kick with the ball of the foot? < Yes. that is. You asked. which is a higher step than the usual forward step. but due east. or Slantingly Flying. > why are the slanting bow-step Roll Backs that precede the kicks not deserving of posture names? < I see no problem when that part of the move is intercepting a kick. Da Liu gives an image of patting a horse on the back wh ile holding its reins. I ve also se en it used to lift an opponent s forward foot off the ground. Apparent Closure : I find it interesting that in the early 1800 s it was found that some American I ndians would "lock" their tipi by crossing two sticks in front of the entrance f lap. Fan through the Back is what I feel in the muscles of the upper back when I do the move. like the nerve in the ribs that Michael pointed out. This custom was embraced by European immigrants/settlers. Parry. I find it a bit ironic that t his is an excellent technique for throwing a frisbee. or Diagonal Horizontal Whip where the palms face down. The step out I was taught is not at an angle. After Push in the beginning of the second section I was taught a Lateral Sing le Whip. It s also an excellent spot from which to throw a backhand. Draw the Bucket out o f the Well. An application of Turn and Chop with Fist is where the right hand is used as a backhand to the head or chin. and the top of the foot. and the edge of the right hand leads where in Single Whip the eagle beak leads. However. then the left hand reaches forward to grab the sh irt and pull the opponent off balance.another. and took it as a reference to the motion of the leading hand. The right hand strikes the temple from th e side. the foot is raised for ease of rotation.. But then again the term was also used to mean the usual step forward. then the left hand pulls the person to the ground. The name I was taught was Grasp the Handle of the Hammer. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea : I ve been told that there is an accupuncture point named "sea bottom" on the top of the foot. Punch. the ball of the foot is not preferred.
I forgot to mention one aspect of this stepping issue in my original post. with images of a white bird. I have noted in earlier posts some aspects of symmetry within Tai Chi Chuan.188. as well as images of the belly. They are very helpful and just the sort of thing I was hoping for.” A separate idea that occurs to me i s that “step up” may refer to “stepping up into a “fixed” posture. (Brush Knee and) Twist Step David. such as before Deflect Downward. Thanks for the responses.. thanks for your quoted definition that relates this to opposing hands and feet. David J IP: 205. As I consider this. He also says that White Crane relates in a similar fashion to hexagram 22. Perhaps this also explains somehow the difference b etween “stepping up” and “stepping forward. do you se e for the right arm and fist. such as before Grasp Sparrow’s Tail. clouds and moving like a wheel. which is the opposite of The Arising s sunrise from hexagram 35. if any. I have no idea whether these comments are of any use to you or not. and Punch Michael. I personally am wary of the latter interp . White Crane and others: Da Liu. I think that there s a great deal of correspondence between the I Ching and Tai Chi Chuan.197.concious form. water and wings. and I think that these are reflected in the I Ching. This is something I never would have thought of.47 Audi Regular Contributor posted 06-02-2001 02:41 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Audi Click Here to Email Audi Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hi Michael and David. do you see the inside of your own right arm as accomplishing this? Do you then see the “Pa rry” as affecting the same arm of the opponent? What function. I ca nnot think of any other movement in the form that steps into an upper hand oppos ing a weighted forward foot. For Cross Hands he gives hexagram 36. where the foo t is not expected to move. and the hands. is taken f rom hexagram 3 which alludes to images of water. Wave hands like Clouds or Cloud hands. you mentioned that “the deflect is striking the inside of the right arm bringing it down. I agree with you that the sequence after the backhand could use a name. and Punch.. I b elieve he described that the unity of the five postures within Grasp Sparrows Ta il were “clearer” in these sequences than in the beginning of the form. Parry.” Assuming you are referring to the opponent’s arm. I hope that at least some of it helps. This was a wonderful clarification as to the usage of the arms during this transition into the Ward off Right. with the image of the sun goi ng down. Regards. Parry. In ca lling out the moves during at least one seminar. in "T ai Chi Ch uan and the I Ching" says that Cloud hands. Yang Zhen Duo called out an exp licit “Ward Off Left” (not listed anywhere I have seen) during the “Step Up” tha t precedes many of the Grasp Sparrow’s Tails. Deflect Downward. “Step forward” m ay refer to chasing the opponent in what is expected to be a transitional step. as it circles from the left side of the body to th e right? I know that some view this as a back fist and others see it as simply c hambering the right arm for the punch.
exposing the ri bs to attack. whereas “Step Forward” might involv e a (slightly) weighted pivot in the center of the foot? Fist Under Elbow Michael. buckets. ) I am less certain of the spirit of this move. simp ly a horizontally circular punch that ends up “looking” under your own left elbo w. interesting idea about feeling a fan in your own back. grasp his or her wrist.” (Turn the Body and) Chop with Fist Michael. and then twist the entire arm so that the opponent’s left elb ow is twisted toward his or her back and then vertically upward. I think my view of the emblematic application of this posture is the sa me as what you describe. does not even have this distinction. (The end position of the similar White Snake Spits out Tongue (Bai she tu xin). I suppose this is a good image for “plucking up the back” (ba bei) and keeping the back open and a rms connected. because it conforms to what I understand of Karate movement theory. except for the movement and purpose of the left arm and hand. I agree completely that all these postures have numerous. however. as I understand it. Pa rry. B y the way. The right hand motion during all this is. First. a Pull Down/Grasp (cai or ts’ai) that circles downward . and does it help? Fan through the Back David. I should have mentioned in my original post. but I believe it is the same as the striking Roll Back that follows Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain. the left hand goes through the transitional single whip with the palm up to intercept the opponent’s left hand strike.retation. one can envision the opponent attempting escape by turning his or her back counterclockwise to you to relieve the pressure. except that the right hand is in a fist. Is this clear. and then continues into a forward twisting motion wi th a Ward Off feel to it. “hammer handles. David. By the way I like your comparison of this move with the following Deflect Downward. I am speaking only about what I unde rstand to be the “emblematic” application of Yang Zhen Duo’s posture movements. As a result. . The usage of your lef t hand and arm would follow the following sequence: an outstretched Ward Off wit h the left side of the wrist of the upturned hand leading.” are you referring to the preliminary movement of the left foot? If so. and wells” are interesting terminology. you can lift the opponent’s arm up to continue restricting his or her movement with a Press/Squeeze (Ji) movement of your arms and then follow through with an open left-hand strike to the opponent’s exposed back. and Punch. if not i nfinite possible applications. If one views the preceding Needle at Sea Bottom as primarily a qin na. You rem ind me that the original form I learned had a right hand “Chop with Fist” simult aneous with a left-hand Pull Down (cai) before beginning the Deflect Downward.” My underst anding of the final position of this posture in Yang Zhen Duo’s form is that the hand and body positions are exactly the same as in the end of Roll Back. or locking. when you refer to the “Step Up. but striking the opponent’s ribs. As I understand it. a Roll Back that circ les outward with the waist and then twists horizontally counterclockwise into a Push/Press (“An” energy). is the distinction you are drawing that this movement in your form involves a heel pivot. guide/pull the opponent out o f his or her root. you asked about what I described as “closed-fist Roll Back. move that attempts to lock the opponent’s right arm at the elbow. that my understandin g of the name is as follows. The purpose of the left hand movement would be to inte rcept the opponent’s hand. The name of the posture co uld also be translated as “Fan Penetrates the Back. bu t not what I understand of T’ai Chi’s. then inward to the right. To deal with this.
and use a back fist to try for his or her nose in the bargain. seizing. By the way.. Since I am blind to the attack. Cloud Hands David. I continue the motion in the next posture (Deflect Downw ard. deflecting my opponent’s reaching right arm across to the right and down with my right elbow and forearm. Out of curiosity. simply describ ing what is going through my mind from whatever source.” More importantly. I then reach forward with my left hand to press at my o pponent’s right elbow to pin it across his or her body or perhaps to grab clothi ng to prevent escape. Michael. If this is blocked by my opponent’s left “Ward Off” arm. I fear. The direction of the torso and the stance are. pull it do wn and back to the left with my waist turn. Just for clarity. at the end of Chop with Fist. If my fist misses or if I succeed in opening up my oppo nent. of course. after the last Fair Lady Works the Shuttle. I hav e dispatched an opponent with Fan through the Back and sense a different attack coming from my rear. and the wrist grab o . I find your allusions to the I Ching interesting and ought to add Da Liu’ s book to my long list of things to read. I turn with the right elbow leading in case the attack is close and with the other arm at the ready. does his book talk about “random” correspondences between the hexa grams and T’ai Chi postures. By the way. I continue the motion with an open left-hand strike to my opponent’s body. I have never been able to satisfactorily link up the applications im plied by High Pat on Horse. I am also not claiming to have answers. I counter by stepping forward wit h my right leg. the application I visualize for this move is as follows. and initiate a striking Roll Back to attempt to break my opponent’s arm using my right forearm. If a miss the arm lock. while reaching forward or striking with his or her right arm. except that I follow through a with finger flick to the eyes if my fist is blocked). Parry. sticking.). Punch) by using the waist to pull the opponent’s arm down further wi th my left hand and to press down with my right inner forearm to obstruct my opp onent’s movement and to threaten to uproot him or her to my left and rear. that for me this woul d tip the delicate T’ai Chi balance over from enlightening to overwhelming. however. I foll ow through with the right hand back fist to clear downward whatever is coming my way and/or to strike to the bridge of the opponent’s nose (Ditto for White Snak e Spits out tongue. I am implying a subtle le vel of partial control or leading of the opponent through the so-called energies of listening. thus exposing his or her side or back. I chase with a left-foot step and punch under the opponent’s right arm. To avoid being uprooted. which remains pinned by my left palm as allow that palm to close with my approaching chest.. quite d ifferent from the Roll Back in Grasp Sparrows Tail. adhering. the arm lock prior to the kick. I do not believe that the have a real “Holding the Bal l” position anywhere in their form. One of the discoveries I had in attending one of the Yangs’ seminars was that they apparently see explicit R oll Backs in many transitional postures of the form (e. etc. or does he have a more evolved theory that attempts to “derive” all T’ai Chi theory from the hexagrams? Separate Feet. I seize it.David. etc. throughout my description of applications. I believe that Yang Zhen Duo’s description of the arm position and move ment used in the arm lock prior to the kick is “level (or horizontal) Roll Back” (ping2 lu:3). As my opponent retreats backward.g. and not a prepla nned sequence that is forced onto the opponent or that beats him or her “to the punch. the opponent is likel y to resist by pulling and stepping backward to his or her rear. prior to Strike the T iger. transforming. On the other hand. I like your proposed application and your rather colorful language.
then to Observe Fist Under Elbow. and th e forward hand is on the opposite side.” or not. (Xu Yusheng was a student of Yang Jianhou. “not” shun.r release implied by the double ward off (or crossed) arms that start the kick. Do you have a view on this? David. but there are some I can’t re sist chiming in on. Also of note.” “in the same direction with. giving no clue as to how to do the transition. I find your proposed application of grabbing a foot interesting. “bushunkou” means “doesn’t come easily to the mouth. I found this exact explanation in Xu Yusheng’s 192 1 book. which happens to be a form name in the Yang sword set. Are you perhaps talking about windmilling the right a rm upward.Y. _On Tai Chi Chuan_. which states that when the forward h and and forward foot are both on the same side. but of course the foot does not turn out in all of the lou xi ao bu forms.” The transition is named: “Da Peng Zhan Chi” (Great Peng Spreads its Wings). backward. rather than the standing palm transitional sequence we no w know. it’s called “twist step” (ao bu). however.” S hunshou means it comes easily to the hand: easy and convenient. downward. Happy practice. So it is the opposite of “going along with. Audi IP: 12.” That may be where the “twist” came from. 220).” Another meaning of shun is “easily. a “tongue-twister.) brought to my attention the explanation in Huang Wen-Shan’s book . Huang evidently translated his explanation directly from Xu’s book. The term Huang was translating as “favorable” is “shun” which means “goe s along with. In another usage . I am uncertai n of the movement implied.” and that is the actual sense of it in the form name—simply that the forward foot is on one side. The explanation David relayed accords wi th this. Xu Yusheng’s form instructions do include an “oblique single whip” prior to the fi rst High Pat on Horse. whether “correct. The form instructions s imply go from Embrace Tiger to Grasp Sparrow’s Tail. Yang Chengfu’s book mentions neither.). prior to forming the double ward off (or crossed) arms that begin the kicks? Can you link up all the applications from High Pat on Horse through the first Separate Foot? Thanks again both of you for the interesting dialog.” is “bu shun.” that is. For “zhou di kan chui” (observe fist under elbow).” W hen the forward foot and forward hand are on alternate sides.” “informe d. it is called “favorable hand. Curiously. and forward to grab an opponent’s heel.14 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 06-03-2001 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings.” One of the glosses one will find in Chinese dictionaries for “ao. hence. _Fundamentals of Tai Chi Ch’uan_(p. In fact. Subsequently. I find it very helpful in shaping my focus as I do form and apprecia ting all the options implied by the movements.78. smoothly.157. For years I thought the twist referred to the action of the foot. given my wrestling background. Return to Mountain. Ron K. Someone ( thanks. _Taijiquan Shi Tujie_ (Illustrated Explanations of Taijiquan Postures). but “ao” in any case carries a meaning of “counter to. Pang’s book. not being familiar with your form. Huang Wen-shan was a student of Dong Yin gjie. There is an explanation for the “ao” character in “lou xi ao bu” (brush knee twi st step). I don’t have time to respond to all of them. His form instructions name the transition between “Embrace Tiger. I just want to note something fascinating in T.” and “Observe Fist U nder Elbow. Audi has raised a number of great questions on “part II” of the posture names th read. .” that is. something diffi cult to say.
” All of these c onnotations work for me in the posture.] IP: 165. The way a fan opens (kai) is a great image for the opening and spreading out from the back that occurs in this posture. they are named. incidentally. With his arms i n such a position.” and “zou fen jiao lu shi. Fist under elbow I agree entirely with your description of the use of the left arm in Fist under elbow. _Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu_.” they’re named Gao Tan Ma. the turn of the waist to the left and the extension of the ar m will certainly compromise his root. which requires a rising up and a stretch ing forth. The verb tan means “to test. I’ve read t hat the early generation of the Yang family spent a good deal of time around hor ses. This posture is a great example of “opening” (kai). Well.or you can strike the ribs-or both. The name Gao Tan Ma (high pat on horse) is fascinating.” Also. “tanma” which means a mounted sco ut. “why are the slanting bow-step Roll Backs that precede the kicks not deserving of posture names?” Well. which is named “you (right) gao tan ma (but is front-weighted). due to your description. sitting “high in the saddle. downward. Sorry for the confusion.On Shan Tong Bei (fan through back).” and reaching forward. as did the Wu (Jianquan) family. it should have read LEFT. Take care. “you fen jiao lu shi. I’m in agreement with David’s understanding . I do prefer “separate feet.that the "backfist" (I agree with you) st rikes the opponents RIGHT arm? My mistake . s py. It is quite a move in any number of ways.247. this is Hu ang Wen-shan s explanation.. and again it’s verbatim from Xu Yusheng. here named “zou (left) gao tan ma. in Yan g Chengfu’s book. So one might imagine that they were good h orse whisperers. I hope that clears it up. scout.. i understand how some de scribe the fist being under ones own elbow. The fist strikes the inside of the opponents left arm moving it s lightly out and down. that’s it for now. And for the first time. The sequence is conspicuously lacking in logica l consistency though. Both Yang Chengfu and Xu Yusheng’s form instructions describe an ap plication of rollback within the sequences leading up to the Separate Feet movem ents. a compound.” then Right Separate Feet.. then the transition. or “soothing” the horse with the right.167 Michael Regular Contributor posted 06-04-2001 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Michael Click Here to Email Michael Edit/Delete Message Reply w /Quote Audi.213. to explore. you ask. followed then by Left Se parate Feet. to put out a feeler.” as well as the physical motion of “stretching forth. Again. I’ve seen explanations t hat say one is standing in front of a horse holding the reins in the left hand a nd patting. There is. Audi. . Did I say that in Deflect. First there is the familiar rear-weighted one.. but they aren’t named “roll back. The photos are acc ompanied by the names.. Others say one is on the hor se’s back.” But gue ss what? In Xu Yusheng’s book these are also named. Louis [This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 06-05-2001). I would add that when bringing the o pponents right arm up it may serve to "block" up and trap an attempt by the oppo nent to strike again with his left hand--also exposing his ribs.
50. . I would agree with. I am beginning to form several other ideas on the transition as I write. I will get back to you if any seem realistic. I tend to think of it (the waist move to the right)as throwing or "helping aside" a first opponent and then dealing with a second. I have been taught (that among other things) that the inside arm (wrist) has been grabb ed and you wipe off (and possibly grab and control) with the outside hand.71 DavidJ Regular Contributor posted 06-06-2001 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for DavidJ Click Here to Email DavidJ Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Q uote Hi Louis. scoop behind the opponents legs (knees) and then stand up. that this is the only time that we are in a horse stance outs ide of the opening with that weight distribution.this being preferable to just using the arms." This makes better sense to me.163.213. Would you translate (and comment upon) "you fen jiao lu shi. In Kuang Ping we lower ourselves. Thanks IP: 208.48 DavidJ Regular Contributor posted 06-06-2001 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for DavidJ Click Here to Email DavidJ Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Q uote Hi Audi. Concerning the "double ward off" held before one before intiating kicks. then the second sequence dealing with the first again. I find your words very useful. Audi. i like Davids technique in the transition from Turn and chop into Deflect downwa rd. Thanks for the "goes along with" meaning of "shun" which had been translated as "favorable. This seems indeed to be implied in Cross hands. It is particularily interesting that in Yang Zhen Duos form and in the Kuang Ping. Note that the step forward from the first kick could just as well be a step back on the diagon al.80. Cross hands Davids description of grabbing a leg. This does not seem to be a coi ncidence as in both instances the energy is directed up whether lifting ones arm s for a number of purposes. David and Louis.Separate feet I tend to have a tighter definition of "roll back" but i understand your and oth ers use of it.. This is just a guess as to the transition between High Pat on Horse and the arm work at the beginning in seperate feet.. I have seen the exact same technique in Shaolin. David IP: 152. I never put it togethe r in cross hands before even though the technique is known to me." and "zou fen jiao lu shi?" I d appreciate it. or to lift up an opponents leg(s) with the (implied) straightening of the knees. Regards.
Fan through the Back As I write this I just remembered that this was also called ike a fan. Hexagram 50 The Caldron. not as a kick. and see if that can resolve the arm lock. backward. (Fun damentals of Tai Chi Chuan by Huang Wen Shan) At the very least the idea of encoding Tai Chi in the I Ching is presented in th e Wilhelm/Baynes translation on page 194. I ve come to use the term "stepping up" to mean shifting all of the weight to on e foot.. or does he have a more evolved theor y that attempts to “derive” all T’ai Chi theory from the hexagrams? < Not random at all. If I understand the arm lock that you mentioned with High Pat on a Horse. can have spokes and a rolling motion. which is a higher step than th e usual forward step. However. then upward approa ch to the hands crossing.) and lifting the opponent s leg. On way involves hooking the ankle with your wrist as t he hand comes forward and up (don t be too intent on hanging onto the ankle beca use the opponent may lose balance at anytime. but to simply complete the push. and the accent was on striking the opponent s center. and forward to grab an opponent’s heel. and wells” are interesting terminology < I forgot a term: in line with Grasping the Handle of the Hammer the punch was called Ringing the Gong. I know of no document that unravels the full relationship between Tai C hi and the I Ching. you probably have control of the other perso n at this point. and has rotated it counterclockwise . regardless of a pivot before or during the weight shift. that is. does his [Da Liu] book talk about “random” correspondences b etween the hexagrams and T’ai Chi postures. so I think I understand what you meant by explicit Roll Backs) > Are you perhaps talking about windmilling the right arm upward. the opening up of the arms starting to push the opponent off balance and using your leg. "Derive" might be closer to Da Liu s view. and there may be no need for following that particular applicat ion with Separation of the Foot. the right hand is near the elbow. I ve been considering it for some time. t hrough stepping up (the way I think of stepping up) Then. in placing it on a back burner. buckets. prior to forming the double ward o ff (or crossed) arms that begin the kicks? < Yes. Some think that Tai Chi and the I Chi ng date back to the same time and place (4400 or 4600 BC). But the moves bein g an intrinsic part might be closer still.> By the way. The Wheel A side note: You mentioned an arm lock -picture your arm locked at the elbow by an opponent. but I was talking mostly about the downward and forward. But then again the term was also used to mean the usual step forward. there is ment ion of the words hinting at the teachings surrounding Chinese yoga. I think that you may be wise. > “hammer handles. (You can end up in this same position from R oll Back. I was refering to how I thought my first teacher used the term. after the hands cross. which. virtually any position. actually putting the development of Tai Chi before the invention of the trigrams of the I Ching. down ward.. l . now picture rotating the arm either clockwi se or counterclockwise." I coulds have s aid this better. > Out of curiosity. the foot is raised for ease of rotation. and I m approaching it from the point of view of symmetry. at this poi nt in time. the left hand is holding the other s left wrist.” are you referring to the prelimin ary movement of the left foot? < Where I wrote. " Step Up here means a turn step. when you refer to the “Step Up.
David Greetings David. but especially the right. where the left palm remains obliquely facing up." and "zou fen j iao lu shi?" I d appreciate it. which I believe Louis referred to. Thanks to both of you for yo ur feedback. I should have done that.48 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor file for Louis Swaim Reply w/Quote posted 06-06-2001 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Pro Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message quote:Originally posted by DavidJ: Hi Louis. I wouldn t even hazard a guess as to h ow many applications are possible. but is mentioned as an alternate method. He notes a “hidden application” (an shi) involving a d ownword rotation of the left palm to employ pull down energy (cai jin). Yes.If.” with that caption precedes the pho Sepa . of course. then you can hold the leg up and kick to the crotch. Like Michael said. rollback form." and "zou fen jiao lu shi" would be "left sepa rate feet. a ph oto for “right separate feet. though: Either hand. In Yang Cheng fu’s book." This makes better sense to me. he describes an application scenario in which he rolls back the oppon ent’s left arm in order to unbalance him prior to kicking his exposed left flank (ribs below the armpit). Note: Some style variations put a second High Pat on a Horse between the rations of the Feet. Regards.. I think I mentioned before that I had heard t hat Chen Fa-Que knew 100 applications for each move. "helping aside" one opponent.163.213. Thanks for the "goes along with" meaning of "shun" which had been translated as "favorable. rollback form. rollback form. The name "you fen jiao lu shi" would be "ri ght separate feet. This. I m glad that you and Michael liked my application. you have the opportunity to break the elbow. I m enjoying the discussion. may be in terpreted as rude. sorry. In Yang Chengfu’s book. or lever the person into the other attackers. This of course is not how it appears in the form. can be used to give yourself a little roo m. while opening the arms. > Can you link up all the applications from High Pat on Horse through the first Separate Foot? < All the applications? Too many variables. the lead hand s rotation allows you grasp the ankle. I think in terms of a general rule: parry first then strike. Would you translate (and comment upon) "you fen jiao lu shi. David IP: 152. Generally." I place a comma in the English because each rollback (lu) is a subset of the "separate feet" sequence that it precedes. If this opponent is one of many. or dislocate the shoulder.
turning the weighted foot using the waist.This can strai n a novice s knee.215. The footwork is explicitly described. level with the shoulders. captioned photos for the two left side forms follow. the name comes from the passing resemblence to the tortuous way of wal king of women with bound feet. we have t he choice of briefly shifting back. the poor wretch h ad to swivel her hips to bring the back leg forward. Louis IP: 165..247.85 cary Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 06:59 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for cary Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hi. Yang’s narrative. which go from the A n (push) posture to Observe Fist Under Elbow with no visual information about th e transition.201. or for more advaanced practitioners. Take care. I mis-spoke about something a few posts above. Return to Mountain” to “Observe Fis t Under Elbow. however.63 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 06-06-2001 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings. the hai di is an energy centre at the perineum.93.34.to captioned “right separate feet.” advising the reader to co nsult that sequence. There’s no mention of a hook hand or a standing palm.34.with reference to twi st step .247. Take care.9 Anderzander Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for Anderzander Click Here to Email Anderzander Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Just a few comments quote:Originally posted by Audi: Bao4 Hu3 Gui1 Shan1 (Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain) My first reaction to considering this posture name was surprise that we go f rom something so prosaic as "X-Hands" to something so evocative as "embracing mo untain tigers. In my haste.93. Louis IP: 165.then opening the front foot out.Ie once the front foot was down.” Then. In tai chi terms.9 cary Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for cary Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hai di zhen." Does anyone know if this posture name contains any specific lite rary allusions or antecedents from folk tales? .” I was thinking about the photos in the book. Cary IP: 195. I said that Yang Che ngfu’s book doesn’t mention either an Oblique Single Whip or the more familiar s tanding palm transition from “Embrace Tiger. so yes .there s some wordplay going on he re! Cary IP: 195. and the hands are des cribed as moving with the body. says that “the movement is similar to t he turning of the body in the prior Single Whip form..
is the in ference from the name? quote:Originally posted by Audi: Xie2 Fei1 Shi4 (Diagonal Flying Posture) Does the slant refer to the angle of the foot movement. p erhaps the tiger symbol remains consistent here? ‘Mountain’ could perhaps be consistent with the usage in ‘stand like a mountain’ So going on a little further – perhaps receiving a ferocious attack by embracing it during the transition.This is only supposition. Take care. . so "haidi" would be a plausible name for the perineum. and then ‘reasserting’ central equilibrium.. I also wonder what the reference to this point would mean in this context. I m just curious wher e you captured this information. ‘the name cloudy hands means I am moving like th e floating clouds and running water. the hai di is an energy centre at the perineum. to the angle of the arms in the final posture. It doesn t seem to be a plausible str ike point given the position and direction of the right hand in this form.. but as the tiger image is used later within the later posture ‘step back to ride the tiger’ and therein infers a ‘ferocious attack’.51. so yes .188 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor file for Louis Swaim Reply w/Quote posted 11-14-2003 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Pro Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message quote:Originally posted by cary: Hai di zhen.122.the re s some wordplay going on here! Cary Greetings Cary. from inaction to action.’ Stephen IP: 213. or to both? Cheng Man Ching described this posture as ‘delivering a a blow diagonally to his neck’ quote:Originally posted by Audi: Zuo3 You4 Yun2 Shou3 (Left-Right Cloud Hands) Anyone have something interesting about this name? To quote Cheng Man Ching again. but not the haidi. Perha ps it just describes an approximate locus of the practitioner s hand relative to his own perineum? Now that I think about it. the dantian is sometimes called the "qihai" (sea of q i). May I ask what tradition used the name haidi for the perineum? I ve seen it refe rred to as the huiyin point. Let s get to the bottom of this.
Are there any other references to sea.acuxo. Best regards. but spe cifics escape me at the moment. the sword form names elsewhere on the Yang Family site.112.] IP: 66. You said the Dantian can be/is sometimes referred to as the "sea of qi". Have you any other commentary to provide on this point? Thank-you. I have never heard "ferocious attack" referred to before as a description within the Taijiquan form. perhap s the tiger symbol remains consistent here?> Steve.20 psalchemist Regular Contributor file for psalchemist posted 11-14-2003 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Pro Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message ." check out this URL: http://www.Louis IP: 198.. Psalchemist.45.112. or body of water in Taijiquan expr essions/terminology that you are aware of? Thank-you. I believe there s quite a bit of that.229 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis. Take care.20 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Anderzander. [This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-14-2003).19.com/meridianPictures. for e xample.229 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Hi Psalchemist. Psalchemist.130.19. You said: <This is only a supposition..asp?point=CV6&meridian=Conception%20Vessel As for water imagery in taiji..45.. Best regards. I m sure there s a good deal of water imagery throughout the classical taiji literature. but as the tiger image is used later within the pos ture "step back to ride the tiger" and therein infers a ferocious attack.130. See. but find this very interesting.... Louis IP: 198. ocean. Regarding "qi hai. IP: 66..
wheel spokes. Yi focus on jinbu pt.. for a very long time.130. God bless your heart! Thank-you.229 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-14-2003 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis.(forward propulsion.."Fan through bac k" in conjunction with metal... I have discovered a correlation between the meri dians running down the left side of the body with the element "Metal" and the ri ght side of the body with the element "Wood". fo . I might cons ider this as a predominantly metal movement. or is my bucket full of holes? Thanks again for that reference. footwork element) ARROW(spoke-like). in its final stages is extending the left arm forward..112..Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis.. even metallic gesture. I was reading through all the descriptions presented in this thread earlier and someone mentioned the "spokes of a wheel" in reference to the "Fan Through BackShan Tong Bei" posture which could possibly connote an arrow-like. Psalchemist. IP: 66. The release of an arrow would be a forward motion similarly to the stance Shan t ong bei s use of Footwork skills: Jinbu . pondering.do you think it could app ly to the posture in question? Or does it defy some logic I am as of yet ignoran t of in the art? Does it hold water..e tc. propels forward] The phrase seems. In the link you provided above.. This posture. Best regards.even though it is not an official Taijiquan term... I was inquiring a while ago about the posture "Shan Tong Bei"... In the case of the predominance in Shan Tong Bei for the left side.the METAL(Meridian leftside..etc. Thank-you."focuss ing yi on jinbu point will propel the body forward".perhaps a sword. but have put a few pieces together recently which clarifies my queries. dissecting etc.Unsaid.. at least not to violate any of the descriptions for the postur e. Hence: RELEASE(Fajin). IF one were to employ Fajin techniqu es through the left hand) and so to me.(also the element metal ).also Jin(bu) step forwar d ). I will be studying. I can see some connections now that I couldn t before due to lack of knowledge. in a forward direction:Jinbu rward footwork skills. I also threw in an informal phrase release the metal arrow . left foot f orward etc.(releasing the jin as it were.... could possibly represent a substantially overall leftsided release .
Who knows? If you can shed any more light on this. Take care. Pang.229 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-17-2003 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Cary. which cribs heavily from Xu’s b ook. makes no reference to any particular significance of the term “haidi. and let me know the source of your infor mation regarding its being an “energy center” at the perineum.S. so it may only have to do with the general direction one aims (?). writes. Is there a family style which employs "Fajin" in this posture? IP: 66. at the foot of the opponent. appearing in a description of the med itative practice of following the qi. rather than re ferencing some pressure point or energy center. X u Yusheng (Xu Longhou). Louis . Chen Gong) 1943 book on Yang style taij iquan.” an d his application scenario is very close to Yang Chengfu’s. but there are non-standard medical traditions t hat may be the source of these terms. Actually th e books never say where that point is. Moreover. “haidi lao zhen” (looking for a needle on the sea floor). 1987. (The term weilu appears in the Autumn Floo ds chapter of the Zhuangzi.” I’m just curious what tradition these terms are grounded in. 96). that there is considerable variation in just what the term haidi refers to. Psalchemist. says that the f orm is so named because the term haidi is the name of a cavity on the human body . I’m still hoping that you’ll share some more of your findings regarding the use of the term “haidi. but I think it must mean in the region of the energy center (dan bian) in the abdomen. I’m not aware of this bei ng an acupuncture term.112. Similarly. It would seem. Volume 1_ (Dragon Door 1993). Unfortunately. “It means that the hand (needle) is u sed to pressure the vital point. I was able to find a passing reference to the term haidi in Chen Yanlin’s (a. It’s in the section titled. haidizhen (needle at sea bo ttom). “taijiquan de huxi yu yun qi fa” (taijiquan’s methods of breathing and qi circulation). On the other hand.” (p.” This would be the qihai point I mentioned.) Chen Yanlin’s description of the taijiquan sequence.” and “weilu” as “tailgate cavity (tailbone).130. I’d appreciate it . as touched on in another thread on this board.” In the meantime. Fu ndamentals of T’ai Chi Ch’uan (Hong Kong. then. the dan point). 1979). glosses “haid i” as “Sea Bottom Cavity (coccyx). which is known as ‘Sea Bottom’ (Hai Ti) in acup uncture. _Cultiva ting the Ch’i: the Chen Kung Series. in his book _On Tai Chi Chuan_ (Az alea. T. Xu does not say where the point is located. Stuart Olson’s translation of this material in his book. They aren’t standa rd terms for acupuncture points.a. So you are using your hand to atta ck the chu hai [sic] (an acupuncture point on the abdomen just below the navel. _Taijiquan shi tujie_. P. then passes directly to the weilu before ascending up the spine. and the hand stabs (ci) in the direction of that point. His application scenario also makes no refe rence to actually pressuring a point on the opponent’s body. 240) Again. where it says that the qi of the dantian t ravels downward to the haidi. but may be mytho-geographical. rather than anatomica l in its meaning. there may be reason to believe that the form name was inspired by a common proverbial phrase. Huang Wenshan’s English book.Best regards.k. says the posture is so named because..Y. p. “ ‘Sea Bottom’ is a point on a meridian. in his 1921 book.
it’s only one part of a progress ive series of techniques that can come into play in the whole sequence of Needle at Sea Bottom.23 dorshugla Regular Contributor posted 11-18-2003 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for dorshugla Click Here to Email dorshugla Edit/Delete Message Rep ly w/Quote I may be may off here but Needle at Sea Bottom point is located somew here in middle to upper ribs. place left hand (inner pal m ontop) opponent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position ( bending angle of wrist) while utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pus hing peng). It all depends on the actions of the opponent.36. It won’t work if one tries to strong-arm it. The present application of "haid izhen" is as you wrist is being grasped at ches t level (between chest and navel (qihai).20 dorshugla Regular Contributor posted 11-18-2003 03:09 PM file for dorshugla Click Here to Email dorshugla ly w/Quote Louis. and it can drop an opponent in an instant. However. t o strikes. I may have been sleeping since the actual application is pointing to qihai it kind of throws of my supposition . Using metaphor. to joint immobilizing locks. place left hand (inner palm ontop) opp onent wrist and point 4 fingers (right hands) in downward position (bending angl e of wrist) while utilizing limited downward peng (as opposed to pushing peng). that is certainly one of them. There existed problem with dialect and translation between provincces.” Yes. A good thing if that is one s interest! IP: 130. and Turn Body Cast Fist (? the form name escap es me at the moment)—from a simple wrist release.] IP: 165. Your are right-there are multiple uses. and how it is applied.220. depending on what s needed.247.19. o r have them duckwalking like Chuck Berry.[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 11-18-2003). You wrote: “The present application of "haidi zhen" is as you wrist is being gra sped at chest level (between chest and navel (qihai). but Chen Yanlin includes it in his description as one pos sible technique. it’s the sinkin g of the body that makes it effective. depending on how much they resist. Fan Through Back. then the single use (without lef Click Here to See the Pro Edit/Delete Message Rep . as I was told once.125 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-18-2003 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings dorshugla. It s optional. I will have to ask around.45. Take care. Louis IP: 198. Actual form tend to be too low for application. Yang Zhenduo s form description doesn t mention the applying of the left palm to the opponent s wrist. many times (as I have understood) martial adepts were not intell ectuals and many could not read or write. If one is in conflict with a stronger opponent.62. althought the art aspect tends t o estethically pleasing (for show).
229 dorshugla Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for dorshugla Click Here to Email dorshugla Edit/Delete Message Rep ly w/Quote We are back to metaphor again.126 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis. No reference.. a knowledgeable and literate instructor or person. [This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003). or less lietrate will hear the tern/ph rase "Needle at sea botton" and will in his social framework reference top there fore bottom (below).112. When one proceed to raise up again this then causes th e closed points to open as a floodgate. this type of action rarely exists (grasping wrists to assault) so it become non-functional through disuse o r lack of awareness of how to use. Well. I tried.. I am simply presenting a creative idea on the issue.e.] IP: 66. I was pondering a purely theoretical perspective concerning the "Needle at Sea B ottom" posture.. Only the simple pickpocket or petty crime person will resort to this strategy (i . the Sea Bottom point (hai di zhen) was/is somewhere between middle to upper rib s area (a specific point) and is used to shock/or stop an attack whith an overly aggressive individual who didn t /doesn t heed or understand compassion or reas on. IP: 130. In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards.... and as the actual posture is going down towards the qihai a . Psalchemist. which causes a general depriva tion of qi to the waist area (the qi focussed is somewhere else-the points which compensated by opening).130. Perhaps s imilar in nature to the process of accupuncture where needling the perineal poin t will stimulate flow and unblock passages in this area.t hand gently helping) will be unworkable. BAsed on the objective reality of crime statisttics. We a re referencing the "Neeedle at Sea bottom" posture-As I was told many years ago.62. The passive observes who has an interest. I believe th ere is a closing up of the frontal waist channels/conception vessel (whose low est point is the Huiyin point or perineal point). Thus needle(provoking stimulation) at sea bottom(perineal area). It needed intervention of the one who applied it to use resucitation techniq ues also implying knowledge of acupuncture/some degree of anatomy or experiencein other words. An uneducated guess at a possible metaphorical meaning. Best regards. social and intellectual bias/background. Considering opening and closing of points and channels.36. or opening a dam.holding wrist because the person appear weak). Let me explain: It has a cultural. and the waist area the n becomes flooded with a "sea of qi" from the waist to the pireneal.
36. Agian. so be it. Please scrutinize everything this w ay.112. Psalchemist. Please do not believe what I said as gospel. In what sense do you both mean "metaphorical?" Psalchemist..62.45. in my w ords as their explanations proved right over the years). Xuanjin) [This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).] IP: 66.229 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Xuanji-bottom lip/chin Are you sure about this? . fellows. I used the wrong end of the Conception vessel (huiyin-xuanji)..130. It i s a logical conclusion based onmj "metaphor" of posture and actual representatio n.] [This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003). I cannot prove in writing that this is the case but I have perso nal experience. Best regards. message has been edited for Chengjian point vs.19. Take care.126 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 11:54 AM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Ps and d. How do you get xuanji as the "perineal point?" All in all. Huiyin-perineal Chengjian-bottom lip/chin Thanks for the correction. If it works. Your right. listen and apply. this seems pretty unfocused.20 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis. Please remember I did n ot believe everyhtiong they said but since I believe I have some ability to diff erentiate the false from the real only time will reveal its key. Practice. (P. Louis IP: 198. IP: 130.S. My teachers were of the "old school" (somewhat literate.rea (lower dantian below navel) so the conclusion is it must be the answer.
19.com/meridianPictures. whicn may not be actual use.. Xuanji is CV21: http://www.Chengjian is the last one on the lis t.--Louis IP: 198. All I am saying is the common meaning (what most people say it is) is distinct f rom its physical "esoteric" reality.20 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings Louis. My last two statements follow each other like night and day. [This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003). I will not venture to say it is "secret"-only that people do not talk about it o penly.229 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote No. and ALL my printouts are LACKING! Best regards. or. At this point I cannot prove my asertion on location but I will try in the near future to give a reference for you to check since your Mandarin ability far exce ." --L IP: 198. Click Here to See the Pro Edit/Delete Message Rep The actual representation as practiced today per hai di zhen (needle at sea bott om) is literal where right hand is going downward where a logical explanation is hand going towards qihai/dantian (groin) or lower.45.mouth/li p/chin..] IP: 66.the link you provided on accupoints depicts f or the "conception vessel" 21 points.45.112... Looking at the sheet in my hands..asp?point=CV21&meridian=Conception%20Vesse l The location you described would be CV24.20 dorshugla Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:38 PM file for dorshugla Click Here to Email dorshugla ly w/Quote Louis. though they may share a common thread..it ceased pri nting at the 21st when there are 24points . wherether they mean the same thing is left to the wind. Psalchemist.19. or even modern acupuncture for that matter i snot discussed-I do not know.. It apears most people only know about this literal explanation so in this sense . it has roots in classical "Dao ist" acupuncture. It has 24 points. The metaphor is that the "sea bottom point location" may have been "lost" meanin g no one may be aware of its actual position. "Chengjiang. Upon further investigations I realize that my printout is faulty.acuxo. it has reality (albeit its own).130.from Huiyin perineal to Xuanji..
though inclining for ward. with the spine remaining straight.26. postures.127 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote P.112. You wrote. Do it with your back straight.229 Louis Swaim Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for Louis Swaim Click Here to Email Louis Swaim Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings David. There i s a waist turn. anyone reading this conversation that correctio ns have been made for the Huiyin and Chengjian points in my previous posts. IP: 66. Louis List of Tai Chi Chuan empty hand forms. > In "Needle at Sea Bottom" when one bends the torso to go downwards. I will make it a point of inquiry for correction. < From everything I know in Tai Chi Chuan and physiology this is bad form.81. Lovely day hmmm? Best regards. but don t bend at the waist because this puts too much pressure on the lower part of the spine. You make an excellent point about the posture. The photo of Yang Chengfu s posture shows this. Thanks for pointing that out." this is another case wher e the designation "waist" is misleading in English. Psalchemist.130.S. Although Yang Chengfu s descripti on speaks of "folding the waist and sinking downward.61. Psalchemist.112. Cheers. in c ase there is confusion. Take care. or positions in ord er of number of forms: .eds mine. Please note. movements.142 psalchemist Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for psalchemist Click Here to Email psalchemist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Greetings DavidJ.130. IP: 66. I seem to recall that Fu Z hongwen s more modern description was clearer about this. The "folding" is actually do ne at the pelvis joints. IP: 130.229 DavidJ Regular Contributor posted 11-19-2003 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Pro file for DavidJ Click Here to Email DavidJ Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Q uote Hi psalchemist. David J IP: 198.36.
Wu (Hao) short form * 50 .Yang (Kuang Ping style) * 66 .Yang/Combined Standardized Spear * 16 .Chen Standardized * 18 . Cheng Man-ch ing) Short * 38 .Wu Chien-ch uan style long * 119 .Li short form * 54 .Yang (Zheng.Chen (New Form Cannon Fist) * 72 .Chen Sword * 49 . 108 or 150 dependin g on how they are counted.Huang Sheng Shyan Form * 73 .Sun Traditional Short * 46 .Dong Yue (East Mountain) Combined * 13 .Yang Standardized(.Combined Form * 32 .Chen Health Standardized Sword * 18 .Chen Standardized "Fist" (New Frame) * 34 .Yang Demo/Family competition * 49 .Dong Yue (East Mountain) Combined Sword * 16 .Sun Competition * 74 . original content unknown) * 72 .Chen (Grandmaster Chen Zheng Lei) * 19 .Yang * 13 .) * 108 .Chen New Form (Chen Village) * 88 . First Routine.Chen Old Frame (Master Liu Yong) * 10 .Combined Style Competition Form * 42 . 88.Wudang long * 120 .* 8 .Annotated Form * 140 .Combined Standardized (Lost.Chen (New frame 39) * 40 .Wu (Hao) Old Form * 83 .Appears to differ slightly from traditional forms of similar length) * 96 . New Style ) Standardized]] * 32 .Chen Standardized * 9 .Li form * 229 .Taoist Tai Chi Society form * 108 .Yang * 12 .Yang/Combined Sword * 32 .Sun Traditional Long * 103 .Chen Sabre * 24 .Tchoung . Lao Jia Yi Lu) * 81 .Yang Competition * 46 .Chen (Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang) * 39 .Yang Standardized * 16 .Yang ( Simplified .Chen(Old Frame.Wu family competition * 56 .Chen (Old frame 39) * 39 .Combined [Old Competition Form before the 42 was developed] * 49 .Chen (Grandmaster Chen Xiao Wang) * 23 .Sun Standardized Short * 36 .Chen Standardized (New Frame) * 37 .Yang competition * 40 .Wu (Hao) long form * 97/98 .Yang long form (The moves can also add up to 85.Wu competition * 48 .Tchoung . Beijing .Wudang short * 35 .Yang Standardized Sword * 16 .Long Form .Chen Competition * 64 .Yang Standardized * 8 .Chen (Old form cannon fist) * 42 .Sun Family Modern Short Form * 42 .
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