You are on page 1of 7

9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.

5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

HomeForumsMechanicalEngineersActivitiesBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringForum

SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlange 5

thread794371342

Iamusingan8"150#ASMEB16.5Blindflangewitha1/2"NPTconnectiondrilled&tappeddirectlyintotheflange3"off
center.IambeingtoldtheFlangeisnolongeranASMEFlangeandthatcalculationsarerequired.Idisagreeforseveral
reasons,
1.)TheFlatheadformulasinUG34don'tchangewhenthere'saholeadded.TheadditionoftheholeisaddressedinUG39,
sowhywouldthethicknessofanASMEflangechange?
2.)ASMEB16.5allowsholeslessthan31/2"tobeaddedtoan8"blindflangetocreateareducingflangeusingthepublished
press/Temprating.Idon'tseewhythiscan'tstillapplytosmallholesthatarelocatedoffcenterandexemptfromreinfperUG
39.
3.)ThedesigninquestionsisexemptfromReinforcementperUG39&UG36(c)(3)whichimpliesthematerialremovedisnot
enoughtoaffecttheintegrityofthepartwiththehole.Whywouldthisbedifferentonaflange?
4.)WheredoesSect.VIIIDiv.1orB16.5saythataflangethicknesscalculationsisrequiredwhenaholeisaddedtoanASME
BlindFlange.

Repliescontinuebelow

ASMESimulationAnalysisforPressureVessels MinimizingPressureDropinCastandMoldedParts

THISWEEKINMACHINERY:Hobbing,Hybrid ThisWeekinMachinery:MillTurnControlUpdates,
Multitasking,DeepHoleDrillingandMore ACO2LaserandDeepHoleDrilling

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 1/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

ItisindeednolongeraB16.5flange,becausethatstandarddoesnotallowforoffcenterholesinablindflange.Ifyouare
usingthisinASMESectionVIII,Division1construction,youwouldstillbepermittedtocalculatethethicknessoftheflangeon
thebasisthatyoudescribed.

Bayardwv

Doingaquicksearchforoffsettappedblindflangeswithgooglecameupwiththisthreadhereatengtips.

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=261110

Mightbeusefultoyou.Onceyoucheckthatthread,usethefunctionatthetopforsimilarthreadsandyoumightgetclearer
insighttoyourquestion.

Regards,

Thankseveryone.thisleadsmetoanotherquestion.Ididruncalc'sperUG34butmyproblemisthatI'musingaSpiralWound
Gasket&IntermediateBolts,SA193B8MCl.2.TheActualboltloadislessthantheRequiredBoltLoad.Iwouldnothavepicked
uponthathadInotruntheUG34Calc.
B16.5,5.3.2allowstheuseofintermediateboltsprovidedtheuserverifiestheabilitytoseatthegasketandmaintainasealed
jointunderoperatingconditions.OurpreviousLeadengineerdeterminedthataslongasthevesselwashydrotestedwiththe
serviceboltsandidenticalgasketandthejointdidnotfailwehavemettheintermediateboltrequirements.ShouldIassume
thatthisnolongerapplieseither?

Iforgottoaskinmylastreply,WHEREinASMEB16.5orSect.VIIIDiv.1doesitstatethatonceanoffcenterholeisaddedto
ablindflangeitsnolongeranASMEflange?

bayardwv,TGS4hitittothenail(asusual ).
Todirectlyansweryourfirstquestion,VIII1(bymeansofUG44)allowstheuseoffittingstolistedstandard(B16.5included)
B16.5flangesonlyallowholesinthecenterrefertoB16.5table6.

IguessonecouldsayI'mplayinggameswiththewordingbutTable6,Note1,doesn'tspecificallystate"oncenter",therefore
itisassumedandassumptionsarenotfact.InadditionTable6isSpecifictoReducingFlanges,andthisisnotthepurposeof
thisoffsethole.Somyquestionis.....WheredoesthelatesteditionsofASMEB16.5orASMESectionVIII,Div.1,clearlystate
thatablindflangeisnolongeranASMEB16.5flangeafteraholehasbeenplacedoffcenter?

B16.5,paragraph6.3.2.

6.3.2ofthe2013edtisaboutraisedtoflatfaceconversionyousureTGS4?

Twoquestions.

1)isablindflangeclassifiedasafittingasperB16.5?

2)Ifitisclassifiedasafittingthenwould6.12.2qualifyfortappingablindflangeasinmakinganAuxiliaryConnection(which
IMHOitis)

JusttryingtofigureoutifItoohavetoraisequestionsforalltheOffsettappedblindsthatwehavebeenusinginourtesting
program.Notonefailedyet.

Astheysay.Curious.

6.2.3mymistype.

Quote(ASMEB16.5,2013Edition)
6.2.3ReducingFittings.Centertocontactsurfaceorcentertoflangeedgedimensionsforallopeningsshallbethe
sameasthoseofstraightsizefittingsofthelargestopening.Thecontactsurfacetocontactsurfaceorflangeedgeto
flangeedgedimensionsforallcombinationsofreducersandeccentricreducersshallbeaslistedforthelargeropening.

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 2/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

Thecentertoflangeedgesentenceismyjustification.

Isupposethatitispossiblethatyoucouldarguethatyouarecreatinganeccentricreducerwithoutahub...

Cuemaster64Idon'tthinkthatthisisanissueofsafety,butoneofcompliancewiththeStandard.

IsthereanywayIcanprovethataventconnectionlocatedofcenter,exemptfromreinforcementperUG39canusetheB16.5
ratings?

MyjustificationistheB16.5addressesholesinblindflangesforuseasareducingflange.Thisisnottheintentofatappedvent
hole.

Sect.VIIIUG34allowsB16.5blindflangestobeusedasflatheads.NowheredoesitsayifaholeisaddedtheB16.5ratings
don'tapply.

InregardstheresponsefromTGS4,howcanIarguethatwe'recreatinganoffcentereccentricreducerwithoutahubwhen
6.2.3issayingthecenteroftheopeningand/orcentertoflangeedgedistancehastobethesameasthelargestopening?

...andhereIgoagainwithyetanotherquestion.....6.2.3istoaddresstherequireddimensionsforReducingFittings.Itdoes
notapplythetheholelocationinaReducingBlindflange,sonowI'mbacktomyquestionwheredoesB16.5statethatanozzle
holehastobelocatedoncenter?

....wouldanyoneagreewiththat?

Thisisobviouslyanangelsdancingontheheadofapinargument.ClearlythesmallsingleventholeisOKregardlessWHERE
intheflangeitisplaced.Thequestionisn'twhetherornottheresultingpartisadequatelystrong,orsafe,butwhetherornotit
iscompliantwiththetextofB16.5.

Nowwhenyoustartaddingmultipleholes,thingsgetmoreinteresting.AndwhenyouuseASMEVIIIappendix2andthebasic
designoftheB16.5flangewithoutholesfails,whereareyounow?

ThenIwouldfollowtherulesforopeningsinFlatHeads,thesameasIwouldiftheheadweredesignedasaflatcoverperUG
34.
Thatspartofmylogic,UG34fomulascalculateflatheadswithandwthoutholesexactlythesameway.Theadditionof
holeshasnothingtodowiththerequirementsofdesigningaheadinUG34,sowhywoulditeffecttheASMEB16.5
requirements.TheadditionofandrequirementsforholesinaflatcoverareaddressedinUG39.IftheholesaddedtotheBlind
FlangerequirereinforcementperUG39thenthatswhenithastobedesignedperU34.

Unfortunately,forcompliancewithB16.5,anyholeinablindflangemakesitareducingflange.Thisstandardsimplydoesn't
haveaprovisionforwhatyouaretryingtodo.Doesn'tmakeitwrongorunsafe,justnotcompliantwiththisparticular
standard.moltenmetal'scommentisbangon.

IfforwhateverreasonyouwerestuckwithneedingtouseaB16.5flange,thenyoursolerecoursewouldbetoapproachthe
CodeCommitteewithaproposalforanadditionofaclausepermittingventholes(small)inanoffcentrelocation.Seethe
SectioninB16.5Titled"CorrespondenceWithTheB16Committee"onpgexofthe2013Edition.Ifyourneedisurgent,you
mayqualifyfora"Case".YoucouldalsoattendthemeetingsB16.5fallsunderB16SubcommitteeC.Thenextmeetingis
March2326inVegascontactthesecretaryforadditionaldetails.

"ThenIwouldfollowtherulesforopeningsinFlatHeads..."
Exactly!Thereisnothing'magic'aboutB16.5flanges,otherthantheyarepreengineered,readilyavailable,andcheap.Calcit,
addyouroffsethole[withreinf.ifthecalc'sshowitnecessary,andgrindoffthe"ANSI/ASMEB16.5"stampingontherim.

bayardwv,
Rigidityiswhatitaccountsforaflangedesigntopreventleak.Ifyoucomparehowmuchareacanberemovedwithinthe"y"
dimensionofasliponflangewithasmallholeremovedinyourblind,youcanforsuredoingnothinginyourcaseandIcan
guaranteeitwillbefine.Wehavesomanyrealcasesfromnumerousprojects,even3nozzlesonablind,neverbeena
problemorconcern.
http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 3/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

KeepinmindtheflatheadreinforcementcalculationUG39isnotreallygoodforblindbecauseitdoesnottakerigidityinto
consideration.UG39aswellasUG37,allowslargedeformationbecausethatisnotaconcern.However,forflangeandblind,
deformationorrigidityisamajorconcernmorethanstressanalysis.ThatiswhyyoudonotuseformulainAppendix2toverify
standardB16.5/B16.47flanges.ThesestandardflangesarerigidenougheventhoughtheyfailAppendix2.

Toletyourselffeelandsleepbetter,do(1)comparewiththeareainasliponflangewithastandardpipeinstalledwithin"y'
dimension.(2)makesuretheholeisinsidethestandardpipediameter(3)runtheheadreinforcementcalcperUG39.Youcan
useweldoletorreducerifyouliketogainmorearea.Padisfine.Inyoucase,youneednothing.
Andwaitforyearsuntilsomeoneinventsbetterapproach.

KindlygothroughthebelowlinkinwhichHSBinterpretationregardingopeningonblindflangeisavailable..

Ihopethiswillhelpyou...

http://www.hsbglobalstandards.com/uploadedFiles/CTWeb/AllImages/PP199906.pdf

Bmechz

I'mcompletelyperplexedthatmanycodefabricatorsarebuildingcodevesselsusingUG34&UG39astheirdesignbasisfor
addingsmalloffsetconnectionsonblindflangeswithoutprovidingcalc's,andIcannotfindacodecaseorinterpretation
addrssingOFFSETnozzles.

Speakingasonefabricator,wewouldbesupplyingcalcsforsuchasituation.Ifthedesignconditionsareanywherenearthe
B16.5flangeratings,thenastandardB16.5blindflangewouldlikelyfailthecalcs,andwewouldresorttofabricatingacustom
blindflangefromthickerplate.

Justonefabricatorspeaking...

My2cents,

Let'sputasidewhatthecodesaid,consideraflathead(blindflange),underpressure,mostdeflectionisatthecenter,and
stress,ofcoursenotconsideringboltingloadaroundtheedges.Ifasmallopeningwith/withoutitsreinforcementcanbeplaced
atthecenter,whycancan'tthesamebeplacedoffthecenter?wherethereislessstress,hencelesscompensationrequired
fortheremovedmaterial.Hencesafer?

Idoagreeonceflangedimensionismodified,itisnolongeraB16.5flange,hencecustomcalculation.ButIbelieveweallhave
seenvent/instrumentholesdrilledfromthesideoftheflange,inbetweentwoholdholes.Howwouldyoudoyoucalculationfor
thiscase?

WoulditnotbeanAuxiliaryConnectionasCuemasternoted?
IfB16.5allowsyoutodrill&tapthroughthesideofafittingwhywoulditnotallowdrilling&tappingthroughtheblindflange?
Aretheynotbothsubjecttothesamepressures?

6.12.1PipeThreadTapping.Holesmaybe
tappedinthewallofafittingifthemetalisthick
enoughtoallowtheeffectivethreadlengthspecified
inFig.3.Wherethreadlengthisinsufficientorthe
tappedholeneedsreinforcement,abossshallbeadded.

Onlyproblemwiththatis6.12.4requiresa3/4"connectionforan8"fittingsothe1/2"connectionwouldnotbecompliantwith
B16.5,
Cheers,
DD

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 4/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

Dekdeedifferentthings.AndnoonethinksthatwhattheOPproposedwouldn'tbefine.It'sacomplianceissue,notasafety
issue.

WouldntthisbeaperfecttopicforaninterpretationtotheB16.5committee?

I'dsayit'sabouttimeB16.5addressedthisissue,especiallysincesomeoftheB16.5flangesfailtheAppendix2calcwhenitis
usedasanalternativemeanstodeterminewhetherornotoffcentreormultiplesmalltappingsareaproblemornot.

IsubmittedanASMEinterpretationrequestyesterdayafternoon.I'llposttheirresponse.Thankyoueveryoneforyour
commentsandsuggestions.

bayardwvexcellent.Thisishowprogressismade.Wewouldallappreciateanupdate(evenifittakes1+year(s)).Thanksfor
notsuccumbingtothedefaultpositionofcomplainingbutnotdoinganythingaboutitbutforactuallytakingmattersintoyour
ownhandsandtakingaction.ThisishowtheCodesandStandardsCommitteesaresupposedtoact.

I'llsecondTGS4'scommentary.Itisveryeasytositbackandwhineaboutanissueinthecode.Itisafargreaterpublic
servicetofollowupandwriteacoherentrequesttotheCodeCommitteeinvolvedto(hopefully)provokesomeaction.

Welldone,bayardwv!

UPDATE:asoftoday,MondayNov.10,2014,myASMEinterpretationrequeststatusis...

OutforSCBallottheinterpretationiscurrentlyballotedbytheSubcommittee.

IwasabletoaddressmycurrentproblembychangingthespiralwoundclosuregasketfromaCGIstyletoanLSIstylewhich
hasaminimumseatingstress("Y")of5,000vstheCGIstressof10,000.ThisallowedtheASMEB16.5flangetomeetthe
requiredcodecalcs.

bayardwv,thanksfortakingthetimetokeepusuptodate.Canyoupostacopyoftheinterpretationyou'verequested?Isthe
questionandresponseavailableonlinesomewhere?

bayardwvwhat'sthetrackingnumber(BC14XXX)?

Anyupdateonthisinterpretation?

Nonews?

Finally,here'sthequestionsubmittedandtheirresponse,,,

Here'sthequestionIsubmitted...
AreminimumthicknesscalculationsperUG34(c)(2)inSectionVIII,Division1requiredifanASMEB16.5orB16.47circular
blindflange,usedasanunstayedflathead,otherwiseconformingtotherequirementsofUG34(c)(1),hasaholeaddedoff
centerthatmeetstherequirementsofUG39(a)andthenozzleopeningsizeisexemptfromreinforcementperUG36(c)(3)?

HereisthereplyIreceived...

Question(1).IfaB16.5orB16.47blindflangeismodifiedinamannerthatisnotcoveredbythosestandards,may
pressure/temperatureratingsofthesestandardsbeusedinaccordancewithUG44?

Reply(1).No.

Question(2).InthesituationdescribedinQuestion1,wouldcalculationsusingthedesignprovisionsofUG34andUG39be
required?

Reply(2).Yes.

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 5/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

Unfortunate,thatthequestionanswerthatyoureceivedisunlikethequestionthatyouasked.However,thespecificquestion
thatyouaskedwouldlikelybeconsideredtobe"consulting".

This,tome,highlightstheneedtobeattendingtheCodeCommitteemeetingswheretheseissuesaregoingtobeaddressed.
Frankly,ifyouhadaninterestintheanswer,thenyoushouldbe there
whentheissueisdiscussed.

WhatwastheBCitemnumber(thetrackingnumberthatyouwouldhavebeenprovided)?

TGS4,whydoyouthinkthe"questionanswerwasunlikethequestion[he]asked"?Itwasreworded,yesbutitanswersthe
originalquestionwhileprovidingadditionalinformationforfutureuses(suchasdifferentmodificationstoB16.5flanges).

TheItem#forthisinquiryis141803.UnfortunatelyIwasn'tawarethatIcouldattendthemeeting.Iwouldtrulyenjoyseeing
howthisprocessworks,aswellasquestionthereply.

Ialsodon'tunderstandwhytheyrewordedmyquestioninawaythatnolongeraddressedmykeypoints.Idon'tcompletely
disagreewithkeyen'scommentshoweverIstillplanonresubmittingwithdifferentwording.

Thankyouforthetrackingnumber.Indeed,themeetingsareopentothepublic,soanyonecanattend.Anditisencouraged
thatanyonewhohassucharequestforinterpretationstoattendtopresenttheircaseandbepartofthesolution.

See,theASMECodesareessentiallyrunasaconsensuscommitteeofvolunteers,whoworkinindustryjustlikeyouandme.
Eachindividualhasbecomeinvolvedfortheirownuniquereason,butoftengotstartedwithasingleissue,suchasthisone.
Thewaythesystemworksisthateveryonegetsinvolved,makeslogical,yetpassionateargumentsfortheirissue,theirpeers
listenandrespondaccordingly.Myexperienceisthatthegroupofengineersareextremelyexperienced,andveryopenminded
andfair.Theyonlywantwhatisinthebestinterestsofpublicsafety.

Toseewhenmeetingsare,gotohttps://cstools.asme.org/csconnect/CommitteePages.....Thefuturemeetingslinkis
onthetopleft.ThenextmeetingsareinAtlantainafewweeks.Youcanregistertoattend(free)via
https://www.asme.org/events/boilerpressurevessel....

Thequestion1theygaveyouissobroadthattheanswercouldnotbeanythingotherthan"no".

Toreallyansweryourquestion,thecommitteewouldhavetorewritethestandardtodefinetheconditionsunderwhichoff
centredholes,ormultiplesmallerholesetc.wouldbeconsideredsafemodificationswithoutrequiringadditionalcalculationsor
aderatingoftheblindflange.Thatwouldbealotofworktodoproperly,sotheeasierandquickeransweris"no,readthe
standardaswritten".

Clearlyitdoesn'tmattertotheblindflangewhetherasmallholesuchastheoneconsideredintheOP(a1/2"NPTtappingin
an8"blindflange)isputinthedeadcentreofablindflangeoranywheresuchthatthesmallhole'sODisentirelywithintheID
oftheflange'sraisedface.Itwouldbeeasyenoughforthecommitteetoestablishwhetherthatisalsotrueatthemaximum
permittedholesizewhichthestandardpermitsforanoncentreholeinastandard(flat)ratherthanahighhubblindflange.
Butthenthere'stheissueofmultipleholes,anditstartstogetfairlycomplexfairlyquickly.Isitasimplematteroftotalhole
area?Iwouldimaginethatifthetotalareaoftheholesisnolargerthantheareaofthelargestholepermittedoncentre,
multipleholeswouldn'tmatterwherevertheywereplaced.Butgettingthatwrittenintothestandardisalottoask,Iguess.So
insteadofusingengineeringjudgment,alotofunnecessarycalculationsandworkaroundswillbedone.Soitgoesitisthe
2ndedgeofthedoubleedgedswordofcodesandstandards.

moltenmetal,perfectlysaid!

[PostDeleted]

Wouldthisinterpretationapplytothecaseofalugbeingwelded/screwedtothesideofablindflangeforsayamanwaydavit?

IamunabletolocateanypartofB16.5thatspecificallyincludespermissiontoweldalugonthesideofblindflange,althoughI
havebeenaccusedmanytimesofhavinga"boylook"forthings.

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 6/7
9/3/2017 SmallHoleinASMEB16.5BlindFlangeBoilerandPressureVesselengineeringEngTips

Holesdrilledbetweenstudholes,foruseasorificetaps,jackscrewlocationsetc.,canbeaccommodatedwithincertainlimits.
Whatarethoselimits?NotsureB16.5givesthoroughanswerstothosequestionseither.

Stuffweldedtothesideoftheflangewhichputsnomeaningfulloadontheflangeinservice,shouldnotcauseanyproblemsas
longastheweldingprocessdoesn'taffectthemetallurgyoftheflangeitself,i.e.weldsdoneperASMEIXandexamined
properlyshouldn'tbeaproblem.Littledifferentthanboltingthingstotheextendedthreadsofacoupleoftheflangestuds.

Quote(motenmetal)
Holesdrilledbetweenstudholes,foruseasorificetaps,jackscrewlocationsetc.,canbeaccommodatedwithincertain
limits.Whatarethoselimits?NotsureB16.5givesthoroughanswerstothosequestionseither.

OrificeflangesarecoveredinASMEB16.36.DrillingholesinaB16.5flangebetweenstudholeswillmakeyourflangenot
compliantwithB16.5

Quote(keyen)
OrificeflangesarecoveredinASMEB16.36.DrillingholesinaB16.5flangebetweenstudholeswillmakeyourflange
notcompliantwithB16.5

bydoingsomakeyourflangenotcompliantwithB16.5buttoB16.36,butisn'tB16.36flangehasthesamepressure
temperatureofB16.5?

Rotating Measurements?
Join|Advertise

Copyright19982017ENGINEERING.com,Inc.Allrightsreserved.
Unauthorizedreproductionorlinkingforbiddenwithoutexpressedwrittenpermission.RegistrationonoruseofthissiteconstitutesacceptanceofourPrivacyPolicy.

http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=371342 7/7