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Mauricio Kagel

Author(s): Anthony Coleman and Mauricio Kagel


Source: BOMB, No. 88 (Summer, 2004), pp. 62-67
Published by: New Art Publications
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40427646
Accessed: 28-06-2017 15:24 UTC

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^^^^^^
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Anthon^Colemai^_

Maurcio Kagel s seminar in Aix-en-Provence, France, in the summer of 1981, sponsored by


the organization Centre Acanthes, was a turning point in my life. Two years out of grad
school and wandering through Europe for the first time, I found my way to the Kagel sem-
inar more or less by chance. It turned out to be not only an affirmation of some of my
compositional ideas and goals and my introduction to the European new music scene, but
also where I met my future (now former) wife.
Shortly before that summer, while I was working at the late, lamented Soho Music
Gallery on Wooster Street, John Zorn, Charles Noyes and I had spent an evening wonder-
ing what had become of Maurcio Kagel. In the late '60s and 70s, Deutsche Grammophon
had issued many fractious masterpieces on their Avant Garde series; these had gone out
of print and since then there had been virtually nothing. The seminar was a unique oppor-
tunity to connect with the breadth of Kagel s oeuvre and to discover what he had been up
to in the interim. His use of sounds, collage, unfamiliar instruments and aural theatricality
was about as unacademic as contemporary classical music had ever gotten, and was an
alternative to the churches of Cage and Stockhausen. Humor has never been far from the
surface in Kagels music. Zorn, particularly, found a lot of inspiration in his work.
This interview took place in Cologne, Germany, where Kagel has lived since 1957, on
March 31, the day of my solo concert at Colognes Loft. I was very happy to reconnect
with Kagel and to try to fit in, as much as possible, questions and thoughts about his work
that have come to me through the years.

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Anthony Coleman: I want to ask you about AC: That's what this piece that you're working elements in Tactil: banjo strokes-
the series of collection pieces that you've on is about? MK: Of course, I love it. The banjo is a per-
done over the years. I'm thinking especially MK: It's a piece for orchestra titled Foreign fect example of hybridization: a plucked
about Atem [1969-70, for a brass player], Tones to Echoes. It also has to do with recol- snare drum with steel strings tuned like a vio-
Tactil [1970, for two guitars and piano] and lection, but with an injured one: echoes as a lin! I could imagine it being included in
Ludwig van [1969]. It's a big subject for you: wounded remembrance. Recycling in art, of Hieronymus Bosch's Ship of Fools or his
whether it's a question of collections of ges- course, is as old as the Bible. Garden of Earthly Delights.
tures, or quotes, or citations, it seems as AC: Yes, but you have a very particular AC: Is vernacular music still a part of your lis-
though you have a whole series of pieces approach to it. What is so great about Tactil tening?
that are based on the idea of references is that you decided to use accompaniment MK: Sometimes I'm really hungry to hear it.
figures from all kinds of music. Anyone who For a composer, hearing music is a rather
related to the history of an instrument or
group of instruments, or moments from theknows different musical vernaculars can rec- complex activity: one analyzes and recom-
work of a great predecessor- poses at once, agreeing, rejecting,
Maurcio Kagel: It's not only me. in fact learning by "interactive
Many of us are doing new things; understanding."
we don't want to repeat the same AC: Living in New York, I am sur-
pieces that have been written in rounded by music. It's interesting
the past. You have to review the to see you in this kind of, shall we
whole history of music when you say, very cosseted, very private
are composing really new new neighborhood in Cologne,
music. Your mind is collecting, in a because where I live, on East 7th
virtual way, all the pieces that you Street in Manhattan, it's every-
know and like. Memory is a con- where: Latin music, Puerto Rican
stant tool for each composer: it's music, all kinds of black music,
like a utopie, never-ending rap- there's no way to escape it.
acoustic library. MK: Well, I try to defend myself
AC: Yes. When I think about from an acoustic chaos that is pro-
Ludwig van, what's really particu- duced without my help. I articu-
larly interesting to me as a com- late my own personal version of
poser is your way of working, this chaos every day.
because the material is presented AC: When you were younger, you
almost in a chance way, yet at the must have listened a lot.
same time one can totally feel MK: Yes, but I also played New
you operating as a composer. On Orleans jazz in school.
the surface it could almost feel AC: I want to ask you about Blue's
like a Cage piece, like the blue [1978-79, a musico-ethnologi-
Europeras, because there's one cal reconstruction for four players,
citation and then another citation. including "Glass Trumpet," in
But one can feel your love for which a trumpet sound is pro-
those citations. duced by singing into a drinking
MK: Yes, absolutely. Let's put it in this way: ognize the anodyne elements, but they're glass] in relation to that. Its such a funny
the chance operations in Cage are in some juxtaposed in a way that gives it this whole piece. Have you ever thought about doing it
way ideological because he was of the opin- new sense. That happens in a lot of your again with people who have more of a jazz
ion that real chance was the best possible pieces. background? You as vocalist seemed to
way to achieve a higher philosophical and MK: The key is to have a fresh sensibility inhabit the language of the early jazz refer-
aesthetic level. I refuse such an ideology- toward all material. You must respect and ences, but the instrumentalists seemed to be
along with most ideologies- because there love your sources. at too much of a remove from it. I would like
is no need to burden the use of chance oper- AC: That comes across in your music. Now, to play it with you sometime.
ations with the idea that you can get a priori it's pretty obvious where your love for classi- MK: I would be delighted to do that, espe-
successful results. I have a very deep need to cal music comes from, but what about the cially now that I know your own jazz CDs.
form my material myself with the conviction vernacular elements? Where did the love for We performed Blue's blue last February in
given by a conscious act, but if I dislike what the guitar come from? Did you spend a lot of Hamburg in a strange festival called The
the use of chance has cooked for me, I refuse time listening to folk music and jazz? Young John Cage and the Mature Kagel. It is
the operation. The unconscious is present MK: I was born in Argentina, and tangos and always very exciting to play this piece,
anyway in musical invention. Determination vernacular music are for me what American because in most of the performances the
or indtermination is not the main question; music, jazz, is for you. In America you can other participants are also musicians dedi-
you have to remain true to principles that are never forget that jazz exists. I wrote once cated to serious classical music. We have to
mostly of a stylistic nature. about jazz- it remains the most fundamental keep reinventing, because none of us has had
AC: Right, but Cage also- cultural vendetta of the black people against the sacrosanct experience of real jazz impro-
MK: I have a very large trash container in my the white people and the various forms of visations. Perhaps this is our chance.
mind, and I put a lot of things there, but I slavery that exist to this day. AC: When I was listening to the new record-
never forget. AC: But you also use a lot of North American ing of Exotica [1972, for non-Western instru-

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merits; six players] I was struck by the realiza- AC: But does it interest you that there's a formance of a new piece, which is important
tion that now people know world music group of composers who- for writing your next work. Every last piece
much better than when you first wrote the MK: Well, I'm sincerely touched. I'm curious you hear influences your further develop-
piece. In the new recording you use two to know who they are. ment, in a positive way or by opposition. You
Japanese musicians. Well, I don't know if its AC: Well, John Zorn, for instance. Do you need the aural experience, not only the satis-
actually the Japanese musicians who imitate know his music at all? faction on paper.
Japanese music on the recording- MK: Oh yes. First from his recordings but also AC: Totally. So we make it happen. But what
MK: No, I asked the Japanese players not to from a concert of his works, years ago, in it means is that we can very rarely write for
make Japanese music. Cologne. He seems to be a composer who large ensembles. We're still writing L'Histoire
AC: Because the people who do make the brings together musical curiosity and ethnic du Soldat over and over again, you know
Japanese music do it like they've listened to a inquiries. I am very sympathetic with his what I mean? Because that's what we can do.
lot of Japanese music; it's too good, in a way. artistic approach. It's unfortunate.

And when I go back to the earlier recording, AC: On one of his very first records, School, MK: Like a kind of welfare chamber music.
it's more like an idea, a dim idea of music there was a company called the Kagel Hat AC: When I was listening recently to Music
from other cultures. But nowadays when it's Company in New York, and he put the photo for Renaissance Instruments [1965-66], and
performed, people have a harder time get- of the Kagel Hat Company on the sleeve of also to Der Schall [1968], something really
ting a dim idea, because there are so many his record. struck me. I was thinking a lot about how the
records available and so much dissemination. MK: I never saw that record. It's interesting, I motifs are not motifs. Even with Stockhausen

MK: You're right. But also now young musi- was just in Toronto at a very nice festival, the you still get the sense of motifs like little
cians have no preconception to say, Well, New Music Concerts, with lots of old phrases, you know, if you look at Kurzwellen
this is not serious classical music. friends- Bob Aitken invited me. And I'm or something. But what's so interesting to me
AC: Much less than the generations before attached to the Canadian scene of com- in your music is that the motifs are really the
them. posers in Montreal because they speak asounds: each sound is its own motif. And the
MK: They are much more nonchalant. And of marvelous pidgin-like French. I was also in way when you listen with the score to the
course they are much more experienced Banff, and in Vancouver. I like traveling verywhole Music for Renaissance Instruments,
with non-European music. For me, when I much, partly because being away from mythere are no motifs that you can go back to.
came to Europe, it was really absurd to see desk I find myself even more attached to theIt's almost a Klangfarben music [music made
that music was classified as "European work in progress. But I really have no contactup of tone color changes], but it's very differ-
music" and "non-European music" with the United States. ent because the energy is not just the energy
AC: So you don't classify it like that anymore. AC: Well, it's a shame. of the Klangfarben, but each instrument
MK: No, no. Absolutely not. seems to have its own life. And then when I
MK: It's a pity. The energy to organize these
AC: You have a very postmodern approach. saw that you had composed each part so
things can be exhausting. I need my energy
MK: Well- to work and compose. And I find that inthat they could be played separately, it really
AC: (laughter) No, I'm joking, but it's greatAmerica, the important, official music insti-made sense to me. Do you still work that
because, again, if I compare your music totutions seem rather negative toward newway?
music.
Stockhausen's or Cage's, Cage will use every- MK: Not exactly, but the meaning of coun-
thing, but I don't feel his love for those things AC: The composers I'm talking about don't terpoint is to learn how dependent indepen-
the way I feel yours. He doesn't seem todeal with those institutions at all. We have dence can be. The vertical dimension is
really involve himself the same way you do.our own separate life. It's very different from composed by autonomous individuals, not
And I think it's one of the things about yourEurope, in the sense that the radicals in by pitches without their own melodic iden-
music that- are you aware of the kinds ofEurope somehow manage to find a way to tity. This made, of course, a great difference
composers you've influenced? get involved with things like the to a musical thinking based mostly on har-
MK: No. Donaueshingen festival. There is more of a monic devices. Before I wrote Music for
AC: There's a group of composers- I guess circuit for them. Renaissance Instruments I went to three of
you know in the U.S. when you say academic MK: Well, the European culture is based on the most important instrument museums in
music it means a very particular kind of continuity, not on rupture. And the cultural Europe- Brussels, which is the oldest,
music, and there's a whole group of com- institutions in Europe absolutely need the Stockholm and Munich- and I really tried to
posers outside the academy for whom support of the artists. The avant-garde is not understand the true function of some of
you've been a huge influence, with pieces placed in a corner. It nourishes the never- these instruments. I read all that I could
like Acoustica and Exotica. But you're not ending cycle of reproduced music. about the bizarre fingering techniques,
aware of that? AC: It's very strange for us in a way. We've because the instruments themselves are so
MK: No, absolutely not. I have no serious always had to operate on the margin of the primitively made that they are always dam-
relationship with the musical life of the margin. I'm 48 years old, and I still have no aged. This for me was the link to new music,
United States. position. I have never had a position. I've because I was trying to work with the natural
AC: Your music is very rarely performed never been played by a real contemporary state of the sounds, and each of these instru-
there. music group. We still organize our concerts ments was like a generator of denaturate
MK: Very rarely. Peters and Universal do ourselves, like we're 20 years old. It's only sounds. So I wrote for each instrument sepa-
nothing to promote my music in the U.S. And when we come to Europe that it's a little bit rately to make a unity of musical discourse
to promote you have to invest such energy different. and functional technique.
and such creativity that I decided to let time MK: Of course. But I think it's unjust to speak AC: Was Der Schall composed the same
do the work. If the pieces are good, they will about the European system generally. You do way?
have a chance. If not, tantpisl often have the chance to hear the first per- MK: No, it was not.

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AC: Because it has the feeling of an impro- at all? because America is such a big, powerful
vised group. MK: No, but of course I love Beckett. His country that we care about so much of its
MK: Much of my work is based on com- writings are like very condensed music. literature.

posed improvisation. I am not an improviser, AC: Where did you get that idea to deal with MK: I know; he could be unjust. But this and
but I need to have the feeling that people are the specific mechanics of the cello the way other subjects could be the base of a second
free. you did in Siegfriedpl entire interview.

AC: Do you know Elliot Carter's music at all? MK: Well, first of all, I played violoncello AC: Yes, I'm sorry. Let's move on. You have
MK: Yes, of course. myself. And I have a kind of secret journal lived in Germany for almost 50 years. Have
AC: In the Carter Second Quartet he also where I put all my thoughts for new pieces. I you ever wanted to deal with your
talks about composing improvisation, but wrote a piece in the '80s called Ein Brief, a Jewishness in your music? I remember that
the result is very different because you can letter, and there is no theater- only a there was a musicologist who was at the
hear in his music the desire to do that. But soprano onstage with a couple of sheets of seminar in Aix-en-Provence who spoke a lot
the wildness in Der Schall sounds impro- paper, reading "Mein lieber" my love . . . and about you as a kind of atheistic theologist.
vised. then an awful, eerie aah' The orchestra He loved this term. He was talking about the
MK: I am a soft anarchist. Without the need starts, and you understand that she has been Bach pieces in Program and about atheistic
to organize your anarchy you never get any abandoned. And you know about her suffer- theology coming out of the loss of belief
kind of deep discourse. The root of the word ing without her needing to say anything till and so on. But the symbolism that you use
improvisation is the Italian improvviso, which the end of the piece. has to do with your love for Bach, which is
means the unforeseen, the unexpected. I AC: You could feel it. an important theme in your music. But have
think that we have put artificial limits on the MK: She has only a chair, and sometimes she you ever thought about dealing with
conception and aural experience of improvi- can't stand anymore and she sits. I discov- Jewishness in this way: using particular
sation today. And I never forget that for a ered more and more how much you can min- "Jewish" musical tropes as references ?
large number of listeners improvisation, imize the number of props in the theater. For MK: You don't know any of my last pieces.
composed improvisation and meticulous example, only a chair, but such a strong situa- AC: I guess I don't.
music writing sound very similar. tion. If the drama is credible, you get to what MK: I wrote a piece called The Tower of
AC: This leads me to my next question: How is absolutely necessary without risking Babei [2002], using words from Genesis:
much was that connected to that group like emptiness. "Now Yahweh said, 'Come, let us go down
the trumpet player Edward Tarr and the cel- AC: Not that you ever used so many props. and confuse their language on the spot, so
list Siegfried Palm and those people that you MK: No, even less. that they can no longer understand one
were working with at the time? AC: But if I listen for the difference from your another.'" I find the meaning of this sentence
MK: It was connected because all of them older collections to the newer ones, the new really incredible. The Lord has to be very
collections become more concretized. If I lis-
were my friends. The first premise to do any- proud of his work. I wrote a piece for solo
thing reasonable together is to work with ten to Variete [1977], for example, the links voices without accompaniment in 18 differ-
people who are not in opposition to yourbetween what you've written and the lan- ent languages and with 18 different melodies.
ideas. guage of the musics you refer to are very Perhaps this is my way of reflecting on
AC: Do you still work with performers like clear. Judaism.
this? MK: The links are obvious because you can AC: I want to hear that. It's not recorded?
MK: No, because I am composing different say, This is a tango, or This is jazz in the late MK: No, not yet. It was written for the
pieces. '40s, and so on. But what is interesting in International Performers' Prize of the ARD,
AC: I noticed a change around the later part Variete, and I've never read anything about the German Broadcasting System.
of the 70s. this, is how melancholy a common denomi- AC: Do you think about being Jewish?
MK: My change didn't have to do with the nator for very different musical languages MK: Fortunately Jewishness has no pope
change in the musical scene but was an can be. I am not sentimental at all, but we and no bishops, and most Jews don't go to
organic way to develop my ideas. have a tendency to idealize the past. It's per- synagogue. This is one of the most striking
AC: Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that the haps an irrational projection. aspects of being Jewish: it is not mandatory
music becomes less abstract; the narrative is AC: Did this have anything to do with turning to be present at religious services. What
more evident. Siegfriedp [for solo cello, from 50? Did this have anything to do with where does it mean, Jewishnessl It means a very
Program, a series of short pieces from you were in your life at this time? crucial collection of thoughts about ethics
1971-72] was a very influential piece for me MK: Well, the '50s or '20s or '30s ... for and morality. In this field I am very Jewish.
because of the way you created a kind of Americans or for Europeans the '20s are a The principles of our religion are of tran-
musical theater that was based not on tradi- mythical era. scendental liberalism, giving the people the
tional theater but on the theater of perfor- AC: But I meant your own age, I'm sorry- possibility to reflect on identity and behav-
mance-the natural things that happen to an MK: Yes, but I'm playing with melancholy of ior. And the Old Testament is a persistent
instrumentalist. He plays the same melody a past which we've never known. You under- address to the grand jury to make explicit
over and over but as he plays it, in ways that stand? the deep meaning of the Ten Command-
become more and more impossible, you AC: It sounds very Borgesian, a lot of what ments. The Lord punishes but never kills:
notice his stress and his strain and it's natural. you're saying. vive la diffrence^.

He doesn't have to act because trying to get MK: He was one of my teachers. I studied I am afraid of the role played today by the
those harmonics is hard enough. You create English literature with him. Jewish orthodoxy in Israel. Fundamentalism
something very similar to Beckett for me in AC: That must have been amazing, even in any religion tends toward totalitarianism
that way: trying to act while you're buried in though he once said something like the thing and intolerance. There is no chance of dia-
the ground. Was Beckett an influence for you about American literature is that it's only logue with Yahweh, only a monologue with

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ones own imagination. The presumptuous- some kind of musical link between them. today. In the '60s Dos Passos went to visit
ness of the Jewish orthodoxy now is based Especially for an audience that tends to hearFidel Castro, refusing to accept that the
on political power. The end of such a move- the German texts in a particular way . . . Cuban leader was a criminal, renewing fas-
ment could be the birth of a Jewish MK: Well, my parents were also left, and for cism.
Inquisition, which would go against the most my mother Rosa Luxembourg was the mostAC People wanted to believe in Castro, and
important values of Jewishness: self-ironyimportant female figure in history. they still want to believe in Castro.
and never-ending reflection and commen-AC So she was very left. MK: The history of the political left is a total
tary, tolerance and paradox, humor, mysti-MK: Yes, and my father rather. It is very inter- tragedy.
cism and mystery. The voice of God does notesting. You have a couple and both are left, AC Well, here's a question for you: Have you
need any human playback. but the woman is more left than the man ever known a socialist leader of a country
AC Both your parents were Jewish, right? because the man had to work and earn that wasn't a criminal?
Where were they from originally? MK: I don't know.
money. Normal life is more right and the
MK: They are from Russia. From my mother woman has an idealistic, Utopian conception AC I was listening to 1898 [1972-73, written
there are two branches, St. Petersburg and of left. You will see all the time when a cou-
to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Deutsche
Odessa. ple are both left, the woman is much more
Grammophon] the other day and I really love
AC Have you ever visited? radical. it. I have to say the CD of 1898 with
MK: St. Petersburg twice, Odessa unfortu- AC Have you been in Eastern Europe much Renaissance instruments is really fantastic.
nately not. But there is an important festival since 1991? I'm happy they're reissued and I'm so sad that
in Odessa, and they've invited me, but always MK: No. Eastern Europe has become very the rest of your Deutsche Grammophon
too late. And the family of my father came different. I also grew up with the Spanish series is not reissued.
from Germany. It's a very classical mixture. Civil War and its music because of my par- MK: When I'm gone, they will do it immedi-
AC: So when did they leave? ents. The house was full of Republicans, ately.
MK: After the Russian revolution. The absur- Spanish refugees. It was very political. AC I hope they do it before then.
dity is that most of the Jewish people were AC Were they more on the anarchist side? MK: My last production with the
leftist and the Russian revolution theoreti- Grammophon was with Peter Ustinov. It's
cally was left. But really it was right: Lenin absolutely gorgeous. He's speaking the
and Stalin systematically killed the left. Brahms in the Variations Without Fugue
AC There are so many different kinds of left. [1971-72]. There will be two versions, one in
I even think of Stalinist as left somehow. German and one in English.
MK: I am very suspicious about left and right AC When I was listening to 1898, the part
as absolute symbols. Between black and where the children were coming in and
white we find many nuances of color. I think laughing, there was something I connected
the most extraordinary thing about music is to as with many of the other pieces of yours
that it doesn't exist as left or right. I've mentioned, such as Atem, where there
Melodious music is not right because non- was the sound of the vacuum cleaner. Do
melodious music is left, for example. you ever feel a connection to installation or
AC I tried to do a project about this that I performance art? Because to me as a com-
wanted to tell you about. I took some of the poser, you've come very close to installation
Spanish Civil War German songs- I grew up art, even though what I was saying earlier
with those because my parents were very about Siegfriedp is that the performance
left and because my father was very influ- comes out of the natural relationships that
enced by his Jewishness as a sort of guilt. A people have with their instruments. But still,
lot of American Jews have this feeling of guilt it's audible, you can feel it. Do you ever pay
because they didn't have any active partici- attention to those things?
pation in the war; they survived, they were MK: Yes. Anarchism is difficult to understand MK: Well, I have done installations, in '68.
eating. And I grew up with the Spanish Civil if you don't know about the deep idealism of AC I know, with your films.
War songs sung by Ernst Busch. But I also radicality. It is a way of humanizing society. MK: Or Ornithologica multiplicata [1968],
grew up hearing the Nazi songs, so I tried to AC Some people don't understand the dif- with both exotic birds and European birds. I
put together the Freiheit song ("Die Heimat ferences between anarchy and chaos. They put them in two different cages so that they
ist weit. . . .") with the Horst Wessel Lied to think that they mean the same thing. heard each other's vernacular. I made this
see what they did together, and it didn't MK: They think immediately of planting project in a large new garage. It was a need
really work, but it was an interesting idea. bombs, but this is also unjust. Ninety-nine for me. Today you have hundreds of thou-
MK: It will never work. No, the Horst Wessel percent are not planting bombs. My mother sands of environments for installations, and I
song, no. In Germany you could never do taught me as a child the history of Sacco and don't need to do this.
this. Vanzetti. You have to go now. Tonight you are per-
AC: You're right. I tried to see if there was AC: It would be interesting to look at how forming your piano music in Cologne and
something intrinsic in the pieces that- your political views connect to your music. unfortunately I cannot come! Till midnight I
MK: Use lullabies instead. MK: Three years ago I was rather ill. Two will be working on the radio on a piece
AC But what I was trying to do was use the weeks in bed. I read the U.S. trilogy of John called Premature Final Sale, The Unfinished
polarization. You put music that is associated Dos Passos. It was very interesting, what hap- Memoirs of a Sound Engineer. Goodbye and
with the left together with music that is pened in those times. The work is also a key bonne chance for your concert! o
associated with fascism, and see if there's to understanding the policy of the U.S.

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