Interview With Chinua Achebe

Speaking Truth to Power: An Interview with Chinua Achebe
Author(s): Chinua Achebe and Roger Bowen

Source: Academe, Vol. 91, No. 1 (Jan. - Feb., 2005), pp. 45-50
Published by: American Association of University Professors
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40252737
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03
Speaking Truth to
Power An Interview with
Chinua Achebe
Chinua Achebe, the Nigerian novelist and poet- and AAUP
member- reflects on freedom, political oppression,
and higher education . JA AUP general secretary Roger Bowen traveled
m^^ to Bard College on November 1 1 to interview
^^^^ Chinua Achebe, who is Charles P. Stevenson,
^^^^^k Jr., Professor of Languages and Literature at
m ^k Bard. He is best known for his 1958 novel
.^L. ^^^^Things Fall Apart, which is regarded as a classic
of world literature. Other works include Arrow of God (1964),
A Man of the People (1966), Beware, Soul Brother (1971), The
Trouble with Nigeria (1984), Anthills of the Savanna (1987),
Another Africa, with R. Lyons (1998), Africa Is People (1998), and
Home and Exile (2000). Achebe has received more than twenty
honorary doctorates and several international literary prizes.
Special thanks are due to AAUP staff members Bonnie Faulk
JANUARY-FEBRUARY 2005 45
Bowen: How long have you been a member of the \
AAUP? \
Achebe: I think probably f
Bowen: What prompt
Achebe: Well, I think it is a g
organize themselves ^^^^^^^ going on andin Nigeria? to have
the same as ^^^^^^^ Achebe:
what I Oh, yes. I do indeed.
said to In fact,
writerjust
an association *" now INigerian
of am in some kind of trouble in Nigeria. The
author
what we are trouble increasedis
doing recently wonderful,
when I rejected a national honor. I
because we have turnedlittle
it down because I was not pleased, I was not happy
influence.
called the with the way things are going and
"emperor," and am alarmed thatmost
Nigeria is
involved with the emperor,
falling into the hands of thugs - corrupt, terribly corrupt but
to have the bandits.
power of a group.
Bowen: And the Bowen:emperor
Does the government look the other way iswhen a sy
government? corruption occurs?
Achebe: The authority. It's kind of a metaphor, but one Achebe: That's right, not only does the government look
we need to take seriously. Now in the United States, I don't the other way, but these thugs also boast openly that they
think there is the same clarity about the emperor. I think have connections at the highest level.
here the emperor is very, very, clever and doesn't often show Bowen: Is President Obasanjo complicit? [Olusegan
his true colors, but his authority is manifest. Obasanjo was elected president of Nigeria in 1999, ending
Bowen: Twice in Washington recently, I hailed cabs and sixteen years of military rule.]
the drivers had accents. I asked where they were from origi- Achebe: Yes, in fact he is the one involved. He is the one
nally, and both said Nigeria. I asked if they knew Chinua who is supposed to fix this, and he is the one in whom we
Achebe, and they said, "He is a national hero." So I asked once had some faith. He came to power in 1999, but he has
what novels of his had they read? Both said Things Fall not performed. So I did not see any reason to accept the
Apart, and one added Arrow of God. I found it fascinating national award from him.
that Nigerian expatriates who have made their homes in the Bowen: Let me ask this question: within Nigeria and
United States know who you are, respect your writing, and universities in your home state and elsewhere, is there such a
see you as a great thinker. Now, do you keep track of events thing as academic freedom?
46 ACADEME
Achebe: Well, it is touch and go. There is some, but not Bowen: What year was that published? 1958? You were a
enough. There is always the danger of violation, because young man then.
when there is poverty, salaries are not paid, students are con- Achebe: Yeah, I was very young then.
stantly on strike, and the universities are closed - sometimes Bowen: That novel brought you international acclaim.
more often than they are open. In that kind of situation, we Achebe: I was very happy, very lucky.
can't really talk about academic freedom. Bowen: Do you require your students here at Bard to
Bowen: If I'm teaching political science at a Nigerian uni- read your writings?
versity and I say out loud to my students that Nigeria's Achebe: Well, I think the answer is no. I teach them
democracy is underdeveloped, would I risk losing my job? African literature generally.
Achebe: You might, but that has not been happening a Bowen: Can you compare what it's like to be a student
lot lately. One reason is that far more people have given up today at a Nigerian university with what it was like when
on change and are trying to leave the country. Many you were a student?
Nigerian academics now live here or in Europe. Achebe: Oh, it's like night and day.
Bowen: Is it your sense that Nigerian intellectuals are leav- Bowen: Which is night and which is day?
ing the country and going to Europe and the United States Achebe: Day is my time, and night is now - and that is
because they want more freedom to profess honestly, or ... ? not because of the students.
Achebe: Well - the fact that they are hungry, you have to Bowen: It's the government?
put that in perspective, and if people are not paid their Achebe: It is because of the country, the government, of
salaries - there are so many reasons for them to look some- the collapse of so many things. Talking about Nigeria is so
where else for work. painful, because the image that always comes to my mind is
Bowen: So it's not just that they can't speak their minds the proverb I have in my language. It says when you are told
but also that they are underpaid. that the house has fallen, you do not ask "What about the
Achebe: Yes. Underpaid faculty who have insecure work- ceiling?" or "What about the windows?" We are talking
ing conditions are unlikely to speak their minds. about a calamity.
Bowen: You attended a Nigerian university during the Bowen: You were a student when the British still ruled
last years of British colonial rule. As a student, was it your Nigeria, and your novel Things Fall Apart focuses on the dev-
perception that your professors were speaking honestly, that astating impact of colonial rule. It breaks up society, creates
they were not fearful of British power, and that there was an strangers among people in the same village, and is an extraor-
honest, open, and intellectually free dialogue? dinarily destructive force. Colonialism brought Christianity,
Achebe: I think, to a large extent, yes. I give credit to the military, and trade. Now, you lived through colonial
some of my teachers. What impressed me most was that some rule, which from your novel's perspective was a negative ex-
of them did not pretend to know everything. I had a profes- perience. Yet, in education, you're saying that it was better
sor in religion who became a great friend of mine. He said then than it is today?
we can only teach you what we know. We cannot teach you Achebe: Yes, but let me explain. It is not because the stu-
necessarily what you want or even what you need. We teach dents today are not as bright as we were. Many of them are
what we know, and the rest is up to you. And I think that is better. It is not even because the faculty is not as good. The
really wonderful. Because what the student learns is more faculty today is better. But today's faculty and students do not
than just the material, it is the passion to search for truth. have the tools to work with. There are no books, for
Bowen: How did you discover that you were a writer? instance, no libraries, for instance. It's very, very difficult or
Achebe: Well, I knew from inside me I had a story. You impossible to teach. The faculty are leaving in droves.
see, I had a burning sensation to tell this story but did not Bowen: Do you know of any faculty currently in
know its shape or form. So I had to figure it out. My teachers Nigeria who are being persecuted for speaking truth to
could teach me about Dickens and Hardy; not how to write power?
an African novel. Achebe: Well, I think in Nigeria the conditions are such
Bowen: Is Things Fall Apart, your best-known novel, that it is not even necessary to look for faculty speaking truth
inspired by Shakespeare? to power because so many people, so many of the best peo-
Achebe: Rather from Yeats. ple, are no longer in the country. There is very little that any
Bowen: Did you read Yeats, then, as an undergraduate? one person can do in the collapsing situation that we have.
Achebe: I did. The collapse of the economy, the hunger, and the violence
Bowen: And the notion "things fall apart" struck you today
as make it difficult for someone in the country to speak
truth to power. What can be said that everybody doesn't
significant. Did you have the title in mind before you wrote
already know? I do not know how else to put it.
the novel? Or did you attach the title after you wrote the
novel? Bowen: Did you teach in Nigeria before coming here?
Achebe: You know, I think it came in the course of the Achebe: Yes.
writing. Yeats's poem struck me when I first encountered it. Bowen: How many years did you teach there? And in
It was a very deep and profound meditation on the widening which university?
gyre of human history and the ever-present possibility of cat- Achebe: Well, I taught in one university, the Universi
astrophic encounters. of Nigeria. Before that, I was a broadcaster.
Bowen: Radio? So I was invited by the chair of the English department at
the University of Massachusetts. So I went there for two
Achebe: Yes. That was the only profession I had. I was
years. And at the end of that, I went to the University of
there for ten years. Then came the crisis in Nigeria - the civil
war. Connecticut for one year. Then, at that point, even the mili-
Bowen: 1968? tary in Nigeria began to ask why I wasn't home. So I was
Achebe: 1967 and 1968. Then I left my job in Lagosablefol-to return to the University of Nigeria in 1975.
Bowen: You went to the University of Nigeria and you
lowing the first military coup in Nigeria. It was led by a
taught
number of young officers. Many of them came from my part poetry, English, the novel?
of the country. Achebe: Mainly English.
Bowen: Did you stay in Nigeria then or did you leave? Bowen: Did you have students in your class at the
University
Achebe: Well, I stayed in Nigeria, but I left Lagos at that of Nigeria who went on to become writers?
time and moved to my state in the east, as did millions ofAchebe: Yes, yes. There are quite a few, actually, among
them
others, to their home states to be safe. Ultimately, that wasa fellow who recently wrote my biography.
Bowen: Are you still in touch with your former students?
what led to the secession of that part of Nigeria under the
Achebe: Yes.
name of Biafra. So I was part of all of this. I was never really
a fan of soldiers and never fascinated by the military. SoBowen:
I In Nigeria today?
returned home in sadness, because it seemed to me this Achebe:
war Some of them are in Nigeria. Some are abroad.
was a disaster. Bowen: Besides UMass, UConn, and Bard, have you
Bowen: Were you able to write and be creative during taught in any other American universities or colleges?
that period? Achebe: One semester at City College, in New York,
Achebe: That was the period when I wrote most of my and at Dartmouth for one term. I was actually there until
poems. And also many of my short stories, such as "Girls at went home to attend a meeting of the union of my villag
War." which I was the president. When I was preparing to retur
Bowen: Were any of your stories censored or forced out to Dartmouth, I had the automobile accident that change
of circulation by the government? my life forever.
Achebe: Well, what happened in Nigeria was a very, very Bowen: You were hospitalized in London?
sophisticated kind of harassment, considerable harassment. I Achebe: Yes.
stayed in Nigeria then, so I was not seen to be running away, Bowen: While there, Leon Botstein, Bard's president,
to share in any punishment that others suffered. At the end of heard about your health problems and offered you a posi
the war, I was harassed for a number of years, but I was able at Bard. You have been here for ten years?
to travel within Nigeria. Yet I was not able to get a passport. Achebe: Twelve years.
When I confronted the minister for foreign affairs to inquire Bowen: What courses are you offering at Bard?
why his department was refusing to give me a passport, he Achebe: African literature, women writers, short stor
assured me that I was entitled to a passport. pioneer African writers, and the image of Africa in the W
Bowen: When did you get your passport restored? Bowen: In what ways do you believe your work has co
Achebe: Finally, in 1972, I got a passport. That was when tributed to deeper human understanding, or to a deeper
I came to the United States. I ^^^^ ^ ^ understanding of the human condition?
was also tired. I really ^^^^^^^^^k ^fl ^fe^^^ Achebe: Well, it is difficult to apply this e
wanted a break. ^^^j^^^^^^^^^^L ^^^k ^H^BpjjJ^^^ pression to my own work. But I thin
^^mW J*Ê^^^^^ can answer it safely by saying
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^_ I know I've been told
^^^^^^^^^^^K^^^^^^^^m wherever I go that m
^^^^^^^^^H^jR^^^^^^^F work has been influentia
^H^^^^^^^^Hh^^^^^^F this way or that way. Let
^K^^K^^^ÊÊ^^^^^^^m giye one example, just one
W^^^KKj^^^^^^^^^^B many. Some years ago, I
/^^^^T]^^^^^^^^^^m received a batch of thirty-t
l^^^ÛB^^^^^^^^K letters from a class at a wom
I^^^RHH^^^^^^^^F college in Korea. Each studen
V"J^H^^^^^^^^^^V wrote to me about her experi
^^^B^^^ÊÊr^n with Things Fall Apart. Some we
W^^Ê^^^^&9ft 7 quite tough about the novel's ch
l^^^Hj^^F^l !! / character, Okonkwo, saying that
^HÊgjjâft : : ! was a fighter for his people and shou
^^^^^H^ft , y have been allowed to fail. One of th
^^^^^^|H^m / went further to explain to me that th
^^^^^^^^RA 7 reason she loved Okonkwo was that h
^^^^^^^/ reminded her of fighting Japanese colonia
48 ACADEME
Bowen: As imperialisms go, British imperialism was fairly Achebe: Yes, yes, yes. And my father, his generation, I still
benign, when contrasted with, say, Japanese imperialism in do not fully understand. I often wonder why someone would
Korea or China. Yet in either case, people suffered. reject the religion of his ancestors for some brand-new one. It
Okonkwo resisted, even as he was trying to make sense of his seems like the act of traitors. But it is quite impossible for me
life within the village. So he is a kind of universal character to see my parents as traitors. So there is something my parents'
in many ways, isn't he? generation saw that my generation cannot really appreciate.
Achebe: Yes. Bowen: Political theorist Benjamin Barber describes two
worlds
Bowen: Colonized peoples can identify with him. But the today: one is very provincial, insular, cut off from the
outside world, maybe similar to villages in Nigeria before
fact that you killed him off in the novel, is that a statement,
do you think, that true justice doesn't always prevail? British imperialism. He calls it jihad. The other is
Achebe: Well, yes, yes. The "good man" does not "Me World" - cosmopolitan, culturally imperialistic. Of these
neces-
two
sarily always succeed. Having said that, I should also say opposing
that I forces, Me World eventually triumphs over
was not suggesting that Okonkwo was a perfect man.jihad. Now, I think back to Things Fall Apart, and I think of
He had
his faults. He contributed to his own undoing. British imperialism in the nineteenth century as a kind of
Bowen: Is this tragedy of Okonkwo autobiographical? forerunner
Do of American, some would say, cultural imperial-
ism. Wherever
you identify in some ways with him? Were you, like him, a you go, people want to see American movies
great wrestler at one time? or TV, listen to American music, wear American clothes, and
on and
Achebe: No, I wasn't, on the contrary. My father was a on. Is that comparison lamebrained in your view? Or
is there
great wrestler before he became a convert to Christianity. Hemerit to it? Or does it remind you of what happened
became a church teacher. to nineteenth-century Nigeria?
Bowen: Oh, so your father did convert to Christianity? Achebe: Overall, there is merit there, and that's the suc-
Achebe: Yes. Both my parents did. They were first- cess of Me World, the persuasive power of wealth.
generation Christians. I was born into Christianity. I did not Bowen: Is power a function of wealth?
have to reject anything or to choose anything. Achebe: Yes.
Bowen: But in Things Fall Apart, you characterized Bowen: You think that was true in the Nigeria of the
Christianity as a subversive force. nineteenth century?
Achebe: Yes. Among the Igbo people, for example, there their own future, and m
is deep suspicion of power and great wealth within a system dom until there is an ext
of small villages. So they created a system of titles to keep or whatever type of forc
wealthy citizens harmless. If you want a big title, you can pay Achebe: Yes, yes, one do
for it; but then you must take responsibility for feeding the from the outside. You've
whole village for a number of days. So in the end, the pow- rest of the world, yet yo
erful, the titled, go bankrupt. Hence they are respected in the from others. In the end,
community, but broke, and, therefore, no longer a threat. all together.
Bowen: You should share this theory with President Bowen: What do you think that Bard students learn from
Obasanjo. Shifting gears, when you look at U.S. higher edu- you that they might not learn from an American professor?
cation, what do you identify as the major problems, the Achebe: That there is another world somewhere. There
issues that concern you? are people there, real people, not funny people but good
Achebe: Quite frankly, I have not studied it really, people with ambition that they should be aware of. That's
because I have focused on the many problems in Nigeria. enough for a start.
And I think in the United States, higher education is work- Bowen: That's quite a bit. Do you think that the
ing well compared with what's happening in Nigeria. When American students you've met are sufficiently open to inter-
I am asked if I will write a book about America, I say no - national scholars and different views?
I'm not going to, because there are so many people writing Achebe: Many of them are. Students in America are very
books about America, and one more book from me is really curious.
not that important, whereas other parts of the world have no Bowen: You think the aspirations of American students
one attending to their problems. and faculty are any different from the aspirations of Nigerian
Bowen: You are a student of the human predicament, a students and faculty?
very sensitive observer, and I have to believe that you have a Achebe: I do not think so.
perspective on behavior in American higher education that Bowen: Are there universal values?
many Americans do not have. As a novelist, as a person who Achebe: Yeah, there are. There are some differences, too,
observes human behavior and the human predicament and in the approach. The students in Nigeria are far more serious
characterizes it in strong and powerful language, what have about being students and learning than students here. The
you observed about American higher education? I know you students here have a lot. A lot is given to them. So they are
have observations.
not starved for knowledge or for this or that.
Achebe: Maybe. But I also truthfully believe that provi- Bowen: Would you characterize yourself as a political
dence places you in the world in order to address specific writer?
issues.
Achebe: Yes, provided I explain that I don't mean I'm a
Bowen: So you think that it is providential that you are politician. I think politics are at the very root of what life is;
here in the United States?
but in the West, politics is downgraded, thanks to the clever-
Achebe: Well, in my mind, it is providential, ^ ness of the "emperor."
just as it is providential that I was born in Nigeria. ^^^^^^^
^^^ Bowen: Thank you for sharing your insights.
What I can do is to make this kind of link in stu- ^^^^^^H ^^^^^^^^^ Achebe: No, no. This has been my
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
dents' imagination so that they realize that the ^^^^^^^H pleasure. &
world does not end in America. There is a ^^^^^^^Ê
place, a far place, in Africa. ^^^^^^^H
Bowen: You said that one of the great ^^^^^^^H
problems with democracy is it does not really ^^^^^^^^^H
work very well. American democracy is one ^^^^^^^^^H
of the strongest and oldest in the world. Do ^^^^^^^^^^Ê
you really think in some ways that America ^^^^^^^^^^H
is a model for Nigeria or other countries? ^^^^^^^^^^^Ê
Or, is there a certain path, a different ^^^^^^^^^^^H
kind of path, that each country must ^^^^^^^^^^^^Ê
take to realize democracy? ^^^^^^^^^^^B^
Achebe: I think that every people ^^^^^^^^^^^^
should decide for themselves what ^^^^^^^^r ' ^
political system they need. There is ^^^^^^^ 'WE
really a contradiction, of course, in what ^^^^^(^^^^B
I'm saying. ^^^^^
Bowen: There is a bit of contradiction. All peop
be able to figure their own route or otherwise "th
apart." It takes an external force disrupting a soci
to make the point that people should be free to d
50 ACADEME

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Speaking Truth to Power: An Interview with Chinua Achebe

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