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NO. 00-00-24467-CR

THE STATE OF TEXAS

* IN THE 13TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT *

OF

VS.

* * *

NAVARRO COUNTY, TEXAS

CAMERON TODD WILLINGHAM

STATEMENT OF FACTS VOLUME XIV of ~'volumes

TRIAL ON THE MERITS (AFTERNOON OF TH I -gD DAY) PUNISHMENT PHASE EVIDENCE

Mr. John H. Jackson

and

Mr. Alan J. Bristol Assistant District Attorney Navarro County, Texas

300 W. Third Ave., 2nd Flr~ Corsicana, Texas 75110

of Texas;

First Assistant District Attorney Navarro County, Texas

300 W. Third Avenue, 2nd Floor Corsicana, Texas 75110

For the State

Mr. David H. Martin

Attorney at Law DAWSON, SODD, MOE & MARTIN

800 Ferris Avenue, Suite 200 Waxahachie, Texas 75165

For the Defendant.

Mr. Robert C. DJlnn Attorney at Law

115 W. Collin Street Corsicana, T~xas· 75110

and

---------~----------------------------------------------------

On the 20th day of August, 1992, the above and entitled cause came on to be' heard for trial in the said Court, Honorable Kenneth A. "Buck" Douglas, Judge Presiding, and the following proceedings were had, to wit:

-----------------------------------~--------------------------

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

J

6

.. )

)

PAGE NO.

CAPTION PAGE------------------------------------------~--- 1

ANNOUNCEMENTS OF READY MADE------------------------------- 2

STATE'S EVIDENCE IN PUNISHMENT PHASE:

WITNESS

DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R~D FUR-RC

Stacy
Willingham 3 6 13 20
Karen King 22
Kimberly Lynn
King 26 29 31 32
Randy Petty 34 35 36 37
Jimmy Hensley 38
Ted Montgomery 40 41 41 42
Larry Denison 46 47
Richard
Schlaudroff 48
Maria Tassie
Malowney 5O(VD57)58 CROSS RESUMED63 21

33

43 44

MFRD45

DEFENSE'S BILL OF EXCEPTIONS:

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT

Maria Tassie

Malowney. 60

RE-CROSS

FUR R-D FUR-RC

STATE'S EVIDENCE CONTINUED:

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R-D FUR-RC

John Henry Bailey

Don Sullivan Tim Gregory

66 69 72

(VD75)

79

81

83

85

DIRECT(Resumed) 78

Patrick C.

Batchelor 87

James Grigson

90

94

97

STATE RESTS IN PUNISHMENT PHASE---------------------------

-i-

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th Distt-ict Court

98

f-"

6

~ .)

,. I .

I H ~ ~ ~ CONTINUED

DEFENSE'S EVIDENCE IN PUNISHMENT PHASE:

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R-D FUR-RC

Gene

Willingham 99

Eugena

Willingham 109 Colisa Porter 115 Yvette Crozier 120 Christina Brown125 Ted Brown 129 Sherrie Cooley 134 Mike Cooley 139 Monte

Willingham

143

Carla Petty 147

Christopher Alan

Brown 152

Linda Brown 155

Cindy Preston 159 Gerald Preston 166

Betty Mason 170

Doug Mason 176

Patricia Gooden180 Stacy (recalled)

Willingham 187

108

114 119 123 127 131 136 141

132 138 142

133

143

145 149

146

154 157 161 168 172 178 184

162

165

161

185

186

190

193

196

198

199

DEFENSE CALLS ON CAMERON TODD WILLINGHAM TO TESTIFY

WITHOUT THE JURY------------------------------------------ 204

DEFENSE WITNESS

DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R-D FUR-RC

Stacy

Willingham 205

(resumed)

MFR-C20S DEFENSE RESTS-------------------------------------------- 206 STATE CLOSES--------------------------------------------- 207 PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED ON EARLY EVENING OF AUGUST 20,1992,

TO RESUME ON AUGUST 21----------------------------------- 208 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE-----------~----------------------- 209

-ii-

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

.-~-----.--.-~--~

8 INg~K CONTINUED
r·~) WITNESSES IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER:

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R-D FUR-RC
~aileYI John 66
~atchelor, 87
Patrick C.
Henry
~rown, 125 127
f_hristina
~rown, 152 154
f_hristopher Alan
!!rown, Linda 155 157
~rown, Ted 129 131 132 133
f_ooley, Mike 139 141 142 143
f_ooley, §.herrie 134 136 138
f_rozier, Yvette 120 123
genison, Larry 46 47
~ooden, 180 184 185 186
Patricia
~regory, Tim 72 79 81 83 85
(VD75)
DIRECT (Resumed) 78
~rigson, James 90 94 97
!!ensley, Jimmy 38
~ing, Karen 22
~ing, Kimberly 26 29 31 32 33
Lynn
Malowney, Maria 50(VD57)58 CROSS RESUMED63
Tassie
Mason, !letty 170 172
Mason, goug 176 178
Montgomery, Ted 40 41 41 42 43 44
MFRD45
R_etty, f_arla 147 149
R_etty, ~andy 34 35 36 37
R_orter, Colisa 115 119
R_reston, f_indy 159 161 161 162 165
R_reston, 166 168
~erald
§.chlaudroff, 48
Richard
§.ullivan, Don 69
Rillingham,
f_ameron Todd 201
Rillingham, 109 114
_ ........ -
~ugena
-iii- Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

8

~ N ~ g ~ CONTINUED

WITNESSES IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER (CONTINUED) :

WITNESS DIRECT CROSS RE-DIRECT RE-CROSS FUR R-D FUR-RC
lHllingham, 99 108
Gene
liillingham, 143 145 146
Monte
liillingham, 3 6 13 20 21
§.tacy
:h'_illingham, 187 190 193 196 198 199
Stacy (recalled) 205
(resumed)
l-1ore Fur-RC 206 -iv-

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

6

~ ..... ~ ... -,

! ~ g ~ ~ CONTINUED

DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE

EXHIBIT NUM-

~ SX-21,

DESCRIPTION

MARKED

IDENTIFIED

OFFERED

REC'D

SHOWN

82

58 %bj. 71

72 70

89 87

6

6

81

J

SX-22,

Photos,Hooded Skull w/Wings&Hatchet&Cobra Photo, Skeleton w/Sword

Photo of Tatoo of Skull on Def. Photo of Iron Maiden Poster

83

18

18

57

57

7

7

18

82

6

7

7

8

8 8 9

8 9

9

9

10

10

SX-S9,

17

SX-60,

18

SX-61, Pen Packet 56

#154039

CRF-86-463

SX-62, Fingerprint Cd 70 #016344

8/20/92

SX-63, Judgment of 87

Conviction #91-00-24240-CR

DX-11, Photo,3 Girls Stacy & Todd DX-12, Photo,Twins & Todd

DX-13, Photo,Amber & Todd

DX-14, Photo,Twins,

at Birth w/Todd DX-15, Photo,Twins DX-16, Photo,3 Girls DX-17, Photo,Amber

& Todd at Zoo DX-18, Photo,3 Girls DX-19, Photo,Amber & Todd at Zoo DX-20, Photo,Amber & Todd at Zoo DX-21, Photo,Amber

2 yrs. old DX-22, Photo,Amber & Todd,4+mos.

DX-23, Photo,Amber & Todd

6 6 6

70

71

7

8

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

88

89

8

8

6

6

6

7

6

7

6

8

8 8 9

6 6

8 9

6

9

6

9

10

6

10

10

6

10

10

-v-

9 9 9

9 9 9

9 9

9 9

9

9

10

10

10

6 IN.~~~ CONTINUED

r~',) DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED

EXHIBIT QA- IDENTI- OF-
IDlM- SCRIP- MARKED FlED FERED R~C'D SHOWN
BER TION
DX-24, Photo,Amber 6 11 11 11 11
7 after Twins Birth
DX-25, Photo,Twins & 6 11 11 11 11
Amber(in Bkgrnd)
DX-26, Photo,Twins, 6 10 10 10 10
at Birth & Todd
DX-27, Photo, Todd 6 9 10 10 9
w/Niece & Nephew
DX-28, Photo,3 Girls 6 9 10 10 10
8 mos. & 2 yrs.
8 DX-29, Photo of 194 195 195 195 195
Caskets
& Stacy -vi-

".,...; ......

;/

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

14

,'':'''''',-.

1

THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed, Mr. Jackson.

PUNISHMENT PHASE OF JURY TRIAL

THE COURT: Okay, the jury panel is back in

3

place.

4

Is the State ready to proceed~

5

MR. JACKSON: Yes, Your Honor.

6

THE COURT: Is the defendant ready to proceed?

7

MR. DUNN: Yes, Your~Honor.

8

THE COURT: Okay; c~ll your first witness, Mr. --

9 is the defendant ready to proceed?

10

MR. MARTIN: Yes, sir.

11

THE~COURT: Call your fir.st witness.

12

MR.. JACKSON: The State calls Stacy Willingham.

13

I'd like to identify this ~s a hostile witness, Your

14 Honor; and she's under subpoena and subject to attachment.

,,~

15

THE COURT: She's here.

16 Take your seat there in the witness chair.

17 J:.frs. Willingham, you were sworn the other. day; were you

18 not?

19

MRS. WILLINGHAM: (Nodded affirmatively.)

20

21

22

23

24

25

.~,

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

...... _- ._

">:t-.'.'"

14

)

1

STACY WILLINGHAM

3 earlier sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

3

2

was called as a hostile witness by the State; and having been

4 but the truth, and being reminded of said oath by the Coutt,

5 was examined and testified as follows, to wit:

6 DIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. JACKSON:

8

9

10

11

12

Q.

State your name for the record, please, ma'am.

A.

Stacy June Willingham.

Q.

Who is your husband?

A.

Cameron Todd Willingham.

Q.

Is that the same person who's p;;esent in this

13 courtroom, the defendant in this capital murder case?

14

15

A.

Yes.

Q.

How long bave you been married to Cameron Todd

16 Willingham?

18

17

A.

Since October the 1st of 1991.

Q.

So you were married some two months before the

19 children were killed; is that right?

20

21

A.

Yes.

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, Todd Cameron Willingham has been

22 violent and abusive to you from the first time you met; is

23 that correct?

24

25

A.

No.

Q.

Isn't it a fact, Mrs. Willingham, that Todd

Ed~ J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

•. ,::i.,

14

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1

2

3

4

Willingham tried to kill your babies, even before they were

born?

A.

No.

7

8

12

13

14

16

18

19

20

21

22

23 me.

24

25

6 basis.

Q.

Isn't it a fact, Mrs. Willingham, that he beat you on

9 houses, and particularly the house of John Bailey, saying that

4

5 a regular basis at your house on 11th Avenue, on a regular

A.

No; he did not.

Q.

Is it not a fact that you sought help at neighbors'

10 Mr. Willingham had threatened you and the children and you

11 wanted to call the police from his house?

A.

No; I went to John Bailey's one time because Todd was

in the yard, arguing, and I wanted him to leave and he

wouldn't leave, and so I went to John Ba~ley's to call the

15 cops, because--

Q.

On that same occasion, were you present when Todd

17 Willingham, your husband, threatened to kill several people?

A.

That day there?

Q.

At any time, ma'am.

A.

No; I wasn't.

Q.

That never happened?

A.

Todd has never treatened to kill anybody, in front of

Q.

Well, who -- who'd he threatened to kill, not in

front of you, then?

Ed~ ~. Swain, Official,Court Reporter, 13th District Court

14 1
) 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 A. No one. He's never said anything like that.

Q. Isn't it a fact that the children, Amber in

particular, was afraid of your husband--

A. No--

Q. --Cameron Todd Willingham?

A. --no.

Q. You're aware that your husband has tried to blame

these events on your children~ is that -- do you understand

that?

A. I understand that, but I -- I heard the statement the

guy wrote.

Q. You understand your husband is guilty of killing your

children; do you not, Mrs. Willingham?

A. I understand that's what everyone thinks.

Q. But you don't think that; do you?

A. No; I don't.

Q. Can you tell us why you have suffered these years of

abuse at his hands and not protected yourself or the children?

A. I have not suffered abuse from him and not -- there

was nothing~~with my kids, either. He's never hurt those

kids.

Q. Well, are you the one who hurt the kids?

A. No; I am not.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

5

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

,,_-,' -_' _,-"

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.• MQI1f1CEIJFllOIVI.rHEIfQl.DINIJfa':"_'EXAS·Sl"A7'fEAJR~RJllES

. . . '. - - . ~. . . ' " ''- -.',. ' . . .

'~'l":' :

14

(Defendant's Exhibi~ Nos. 11-29, photographs, were marked for indentification.)

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY t1R. DUNN:

Q. Mrs. Willingham, I want to show you a series of

pictures. If you would, please, ma'am, let me identify the

exhibit number and you tell if this picture accurately depicts

what it is. That is Exhibit No. 11. Is that a accurate

depiction of you, your children and Todd Willingham?

A. Yes. Yes.

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 was offered into evidence and admitted without objection. )

Q.

Defendant's Exhibit No. 11, when was that taken, Mrs.

6

Willingham?

A. A week before this happened.

Q. All right. And where was it taken?

A. K-Mart.

Q. Where, now?

MR. MARTIN: May we, Judge?

THE COURT: Sure.

(Handed witness tissue.)

A. At K-Mart.

Q. Mrs. Willingham, who suggested that this family

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

.~_-_. _. - .~_._._,_._-J

14

1

A.

Yes.

portrait be taken?

2

A. Me and Todd decided on taking them because we was

3 going to give pictures of the family for Christmas presents.

4

Q.

I show you Defendant's Exhibit No. 12, Mrs.

5 Willingham. Does that accurately depict Todd and one of the

6 children?

7

A.

Yes. Yes.

8

Q.

Or both children. Who are·-- who are those children?

9

A.

Who -- Karmon and Kameron.

10

Q.

All right; the twins?

11

A.

(Nodded affirmatively.)

12

Q.

About what age were they there?

13

A.

They were -- they were a week and a half old there.

14

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

15

THE COURT: It's admitted.

16

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 12, a photograph of twins and Todd, was offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

17

18 Q. Mrs. Willingham, let me show you Defendant's Exhibit

19 No. 13. What, if anything, is that?

20 A. What?

21 Q. What is that?

22 A.Amber and Todd.

23 Q. All right; and does that picture accurately depict

those persons in the backyard of your house on 11th?

24 25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

7

j

15

Ir-.···.)

'.' .

1

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 13, a photograph of Amber and Todd, was offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

Q.

And let me show you Defendant's 14. What, if

2

3

4

5

7

8

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

20

21

22

23

24

25

. Q.

6 anything, is that?

8

A.

This is the day I had the twins.

And is it taken at the hospital?

A.

Yes.

Q.

That accurately depicts what it is designed to

11 depict, the day of the twins' birth and Todd?

A.

Yes.

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 14, a photograph of the twins and Todd, was offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

MR. DUNN: I offer 14, Your Honor.

Q.

I show you a group, Defendant's 16 -- 15, 16 and 18,

19 Mrs. Willingham. What, if anything, are those pictures?

A.

Do what?

Q.

What are those pictures of?

A.

Of our kids.

Q.

All right. Are they of all three children?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Do they accurately depict that of the twins and then

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

..... ~. { \

15

)

1

all three children in the other two pictures?

5

6

7

8

9

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

24

A.

Yes.

9

2

3

MR. JACKSON: I have no objection to those

4 photographs.

THE COURT: They're admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 15, 16 and 18, photographs of three children, were offered and admitted into evidence without objection. )

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, I want to show you a series of three

10 other pictures--Defendant's 17, 19 and 20--what, if anything,

11 are those?

A.

They're when me and Todd took Amber to the zoo.

Q.

All right. Are those pictures of Todd and Amber?

A.

Yes.

Q.

And I assume you took those pictures?

A.

Yes.

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

THE COURT: They're admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 17, 19 and 20, photographs of parents and Amber and Todd and Amber, were offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, I want to show you Defendant's

23 Exhibit 21, 27 and 28. What are those?

A.

They're mine and Todd's kids and a picture of him and

25 my niece and nephew.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

15

1

MR. JACKSON: No objections.

THE COURT: They're--

MR. DUNN: I offer these.

THE COURT: --they're admitted.

(Defendant Exhibit Nos. 21, 27 and 28, photographs of parents and subject children and of Todd and niece and nephew, were offered and admitted into evidence without objection. )

Q.

Now I show you Defendant's Exhibit 26, 23 and 22.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10 What, if anything, are those?

11

12

A.

A picture of Todd with the twins and -- and Amber.

Q.

And is that

are -- are those pictures when the

13 children were small, in each situation?

14

A.

It's when Amber was a baby, and then'right after the

15 twins were born.

16

17

18

19

20

21

MR. JACKSON: No' objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: They're admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 22, 23 and 26, photographs of the twins and Todd and Amber, were offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, I want to show you Defendant's

22 Exhibit No. 25. Is that a picture of the twins?

23

24

25

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

When was that taken?

A.

A week before this happened.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

15

l~' ',')

, ,

1

8 Honor.

Q.

I show you Defendant's Exhibit No. 24. What, if

anything, is that?

16

17

18

19

21

22

24

25

, A.

20 right?

A.

A picture of Amber.

3

4

5

6

7

9

10

11

12

13

Q.

And when was that taken?

A.

Right after the twins were born.

MR. JACKSON: No objection.

MR. DUNN: We would offer No. 24 and 5, Your

THE COURT: They're admitted.

Q.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 24, photograph of Amber, and No. 25, photograph of twins, were offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

Mrs. Willingham, you were th:~~'worked in

14 the family, is that right, at the time that all of this

15 happened?

Yes.

Q.

And where were you working?

A.

At Some Other Place in Angus.

Q.

That is a bar that was owned by your brother; is that

A.

Yes.

Q.

And, Mrs. Willingham, Todd stayed home with the

23 children?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, at any time, did you ever see or

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District

11

15

r')

. , !

1

Q.

Mrs. Willingham, the references to abuse of yourself

12

notice or feel that Todd had neglected or abused these

2

children?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

You understand what this jury's verdict is in this

5 6

case?

A.

Yes.

7 8

Q. They have to make a determination about whether Todd

Willingham would commit further acts of violence and be a

9 continuing threat to society. Do you think he would?

10

A.

No.

11

12 that Mr. Jackson has made, would you like to explain those to

13 the jury?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right; would you tell them what your thoughts are

16 about that and what your recollections are?

17

Me and Todd argued, just like anybody else.

A.

18 Sometimes we did have fights, but Todd got more bruises and

19 stuff than I did. I'm not saying we didn't have fights; we

20 did; but he did get more bruises sometimes than I did.

21

Mrs. Willingham, if you thought this man killed your

Q.

22 children, could you say that he wouldn't commit further acts

23 of violence?

24

If I thought he did, I wouldn't -- I would say

A.

25 that -- I wouldn't say that.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

I'

~

, 0

15

or)

1

Q.

Are you aeking this jury to spare his life?

4 that he would be entitled and there is mitigating evidence to

2

3

A.

Yes.

6

7

10

12

13

14

15

17

19

20

21

would you?

Q.

Are you asking them to answer the second issue "Yes,"

13

5 support a life sentence?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

A.

Yes.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

8 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. JACKSON:

Q.

Let me ask you, Mrs. Willingham: How can you stand

11 by the man that burned up your three children?

A.

Because I don't believe that.

Q.

You wouldn't believe it under any circumstances;

A.

No; but I would believe it if Todd told me that he

16 did that.

Q.

You wouldn't believe it if he told somebody else;

18 would you?

A.

Not no one in jail, no.

22

Q.

How long have you known Todd?

A.

Four and a half years.

Q.

Have you heard that, in Carter County, Oklahoma, he

23 was arrested in 1986, for assault with a deadly weapon and

24 carrying a concealed weapon?

A.

No.

25

__ ~ __ o_o _"_" _ _o _

15

16

14

\

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Q. Have you heard that, in September of '86, he was arrested for six counts of auto burglary?

Q.

Have you heard that, in May of '86, he was arrested

for burglary?

Of what?

A. Q. A.

I'm asking you, ma'am. No.

8 A. I heard -- some of them, I heard that he was accused

9 of, but not arrested on some of them, or--

10 Q. Have you heard that, in November of '86, he was --

11 and also, in January of 'S7, he was arrested for two cases of

12 contributing to the delinquency of a minor by selling paint to

13 a minor?

14 15

I'm not sure. I don't remember a lot right now.

Have you heard that, in April of '87, he was arrested

A.

Q.

16 in Oklahoma for grand larceny? JUst "yes" or "no" would be

17 sufficient, ma'am.

18 19

A. Q.

No.

Have you heard that, in July of '87, he was. arrested

20 for possession of stolen property and theft of a motorcycle?

21 22

A. Q.

Yes.

Have you heard that in September of '88, he was

23 arrested for dri.ving under the influence of intoxicants or

24 drugs?

25

I heard he was arrested for being drunk.

A.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

16

.... - )

f .

16

17

18

1

Q.

Have you heard that, on the 12th day of July of '91,

Q .

Have you heard that, in February of '89, he was

2

arrested for theft from a retail merchant in Carter County,

3 Oklahoma?

4

A. Do what?

5

Q.. Have you heard that, in February of 1989, he was

6 arrested for theft from a retail merchant?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Have you heard that, in June of 1991, he was arrested

9 for burglary of a vehicle here in Corsicana, Texas?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Have you heard that, in July of '90 -- 1991, he was

12 arrested for terroristic threat in an incident where he

13 attempted to run a person named Stacy Wilkerson off the road

14

in a vehicle?

15

A.

I -- I heard about it; yes, but--

Q.

Who is Stacy Wilkerson?

A.

It's William

well, it's my uncle's wife now.

Q.

Okay. Have you heard

of course, I think you've

19 denied this -- that, in August of '91, that the police were

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

15

21 Willingham was in the yard calling you a, quote, "Whore, a

22 bitch and a slut"?

A.

I didn't deny that; I said he was in my yard,

20 called to your house to control a situation where Cameron Todd

23

24 arguing.

25

.. -.-.--~---~

16

,,....:..:.. ..

1

2

he threatened to kill William Kuykendall, stating, "I'll kill

your I'll blow you away;" and he also threatened to kill Chris

3 Kuykendall on that same date?

4

5

6

7

8

A.

I heard about it; yes.

11

12

13

14

17

18

19

21

22

24

25

Q.

You weren't there?

16

'\

'i

:,j

.'~

A.

I was -- what date -- on what day was -- I mean--

Q.

That was in mid-July of last year.

A.

I know, one time when we had stopped by in my uncle's

9 house, that William -- William'had corne out and got in an

10 argument with Todd and I was listening to what they were

said -- what they were saying, but I don't remember what day

it was. I know it was in Summertime.

Q.

Have you heard of two incidents in 1988, one in

August and one a preceding occasion in February, where he was

15 arrested for theft and resisting arrest in Cooke County,

16 Texas?

A.

Yes.

Q. But I assume that your attitude toward him remains

the same, that, certainly, he's not the kind of guy who would

20 do anything like this?

A.

No; I don't think he is.

Q.

Have you collected the insurance that was payable

23 based on the babies' death?

A.

Yes.

Q.

And what have you done with that money?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

16

--''':':'-'.,.~.

1

Q.

I show you a picture of State's Exhibit 59. Can you

A.

Well, I've paid--

2

MR. DUNN: Object to relevance, Your Honor, to

3 this defendant.

4

MR. JACKSON: I'll withdraw the question.

5

MR. DUNN: We ask the jury to disregard, Your

6 Honor. May we have an instruction such as that?

7

THE COURT: The jury panel is so-instructed to

8 disregard.

9

Q.

You denied that you ever--

10

MR. DUNN: Pardon me. I almost forgot; I wasn't

11 listening. We'd ask for a Mistrial based on that.

12

THE COURT: That request is denied.

13

Q.

Stacy, you deny that you ever told Karen King or Kim

14 King that Cameron Todd Willingham beat you during your

15 pregnancy, in an attempt to cause a miscarriage of the

16 children?

17

18

A.

I never told them that.

Q.

Okay; if they said that, that would be a lie, I

19 guess?

20

21

22

23

24

A.

I'm just saying I never said that.

(State's Exhibit Nos. 59 and 60, photographs, were marked for identification.)

25 identify the person in that photograph?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter~ 13th District Court

17

16

1

A.

Todd.

Q.

And it

there's, apparently, a very large tattoo of

3 a skull, encircled by some kind of a serpent on his left

4 shoulder. Can you tell us what the significance of that

5 tattoo is?

10 saying?

6

7

8

9

11

12

13

A.

What do you mean?

Q.

What does it mean?

A.

I don't know; it just

it's just a tattoo.

Q.

He just likes skulls and snakes; is that what you're

A.

No; he just had -- he got a tattoo on him.

Q.

The other shoulder shows a tattoo of what appears to

be tombstones with initials or people's name on them? Can you

14 tell us the significance of those?

15

16

A.
on it?
Q.
A.
Q.
A. It's just a tattoo. I don't think it has any names

17 He ever talked to him about any of those?

18 No; he just -- no.

19 Did you ever wonder about anything like that?

20 No; Todd just liked tattoos, and he had tattoos put

21 on his arm.

22

Q.

I'll show you what's been marked State's Exhibit No.

23 60, which is, apparently, a poster. Can you identify this

24 photograph?

25

/j

A.

Yes. It's our back room.

18

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

.:\

"

1

7 it not?

Q.

And is this consistent with the kind of decorations

2

that you had in your house on 11th Avenue?

12

13

15

16

18

19

21

22

24

A.

A.

Q.

20 extent?

A.

No; not all of them. That was the dart room.

19

\

I

3

4

5

6

8

9

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Is this Todd's poster or your poster?'

A.

Those were Todd's.

Q.

The top of it says, "Can I play with madness?" does

A.

Yes; it does.

Q.

And it is, apparently, a poster of some supernatural

10 being, with a fist being driven through its head and the

11 brains coming out the other side; is it not?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Can you tell us why you helped Todd switch his urine

14 specimen at the hospital?

I didn't do that.

Q.

So if anybody says you did that, that would be just a

17 lie; is that right?

Yes; that would.

You've heard that Carl Jones testified to that

Yes.

And can you tell me why that he is telling a terrible

23 lie like that?

I don't -- I don't know why he would say something

25 like that.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

17

1 2 3 4

Q.

You and Todd's relationship has been extremely stormy

20

over the past few years; has it not?

A. Q.

What do you mean "stormy"?

Well, he's left home and gone out with other women

5 and that sort of thing; I mean, that's a fair statement; is it

6 not?

7

A.

He's -- he's left one time because he was seeing

8 another girl.

9

10 not?

11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Q.

And he brought that girl back to your house: did he

A. Q.

No.

And there was some evidence of violence between you

and her at that time; is that right?

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes.

All right. What did you do to her car? I scratched her car.

All right. When you split up once before, do you

18 remember Cameron Todd Willingham making the statement, "You

19 take Amber and I'll take the VCR: that's a good trade"?

20 21

A.

No.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

22 RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. DUNN:

24

Q.

Stacy, when did you learn about any insurance

25 benefits as a result of the children's death?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

·:RBPFifj); >,

"- .. ;<~.'_'; c_' •. ,,~.

Two days after the fire.

17

1

A.

And who carried the insurance benefits on those

2

,J

Q.

3 children?

4

J. D. Kuykendall.

A.

Who is that person?

5

Q.

6

My dad.

A.

7

Did Todd Willingham know anything about that

Q.

8 insurance coverage or the benefits?

9

No; I didn't even know.

A.

10

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

11 FURTHER RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. JACKSON:

You've told us you don't know about a lot of things

13

Q.

here this afternoon: haven't you, Stacy?

14

15

A.

I guess.

MR. JACKSON: I have no further questions.

16

MR. DUNN: We have nothing else, Your Honor.

17

18

THE COURT: You may step down.

19

MR. MARTIN: Is she finally-excused?

MR. DUNN: May she stay in the courtroom, Your

20

21 Honor?

THE COURT: Do you need her further, Mr. Jackson?

22

MR. JACKSON: No; she -- she can be

23

24 finally-excused.

25

THE COURT: You're excused.

21

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

. __ . __ .. _ ..

17 1
) 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Call your next witness.

MR. JACKSON: Karen King.

THE COURT: Come forward, please, ma'am. Take

your seat here in the witness chair. Raise your right hand.

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

THE COURT: Take your seat.

You may proceed.

KAREN KING

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

examined and testified as follows, to wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Would you state your name, please, ma'am?

A. Karen King.

Q. And where do you live, Mrs. King?

A. I live at Gainesville, Texas.

Q. How long have you lived in Gainesville?

A. Thirty-nine years.

Q. Are you acquainted with a person that used to be

known as Stacy Kuykendall, now known as Stacy Willingham?

A. Yes; I am.

Q. Can you tell us how you became familiar with her?

A. We lived down the road from each other, I guess, when

the Kuykendalls moved to Gainesville, when, I guess, Stacy was

22

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

,

I

1

!

.'-.{.I

17

_ ... \ r "J

1

around 11 or 12 years old. We became friends that way.

8

9

Q.

And with whom was Stacy living at that time?

2

3

4

5

6

A.

Mildred and J. D. Kuykendall.

Q.

Okay. How were they related to Stacy?

A.

They were Stacy's grandparents.

Q.

All right. That makes about how many years you've

7 been acquainted with Stacy?

)

A.

Around 10.

Q.

You're aware that she is presently married to the

10

defendant in this case, Cameron Todd Willingham?

11

12

13

14

A.

Yes.

Q.

Are you acquainted with Cameron Todd Willingham?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Are you acquainted with the relationship between

15 Cameron Todd Willingham and his -- his wife -- his present

16 wife, Stacy?

17

18

A.

Yes.

Q.

Would you characterize that relationship as an

19 abusive relationship?

20

21

A.

Yes; I would.

23

24

25

Q.

Did Stacy Willingham ever make a statement to you

23 was pregnant?

A.

Yes; she did.

Q.

Did she indicate to you that that was an attempt to

22 with reference to assaults on her by this defendant while she

EdeJ. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

-~~--- _._---,

17

1

~ause or create a miscarriage?

2

A.

Yes.

3

MR. MARTIN:

Your Honor, we object to that as

4 leading and it's calling for a hearsay response.

5

THE COURT: I sustain the leading part.

6

Q.

Let me reask you that question, ma'am. Did she ever

7 make any statement about beatings she received during

8 pregnancies?

9 A.

Yes; she did.
MR. MARTIN: I'll object to that as leading.
THE COURT: I overrule the objection.
MR. t4ARTIN: We object to it as hearsay.
THE COURT: I overrule the objection. 10

11

12

13

14

Q.

You--

15

A.

Yes; she did.

16

Q.

Did she indicate to you what she believed the purpose

17 of those beatings to be?

18

A.

Yes; she believed the purpose was to have -- to make

19 her to have a miscarriage.

20

MR. MARTIN: We object again, also as hearsay and

21 leading. Can we have continuing objection to questions to

22 this witness asking what Stacy Willingham told her?

THE COURT: That will be fin~. I overrule the

23

24 objection.

25 You may answer the question.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

24

"

I:

17

1 2

A.

She indicated to me that she felt like her husband

25

'!

3 think at that time she realized it was twins. And at that

4 5

had beat her up because she was pregnant with a baby. I don't

time they were not married, either.

Q. Did Stacy enjoy a close relationship with your

6 daughters?

7 8

A. Q.

Yes; she was very close to my daughters.

Did her relationship with the defendant create some

9 hard feelings in that, between them?

10 11 12 13 14 15 16

A.

Yes.

Q. A.

What was the reason for that?

Todd Willingham was very jealous over the

relationship that my daughters had with his--

MR. MARTIN: We object to that as speculating--

A.

--oldest daughter.

MR. MARTIN: --and testimony outside the personal

17 knowledge of this witness.

18 19

Q.

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection.

Did you ever have an opportunity to observe Stacy

18

20 after one of these beatings?

21 22 23

A. Q. A.

Yes.

Can you describe her appearance?

She had a busted lip and two black eyes. And she had

24 bruises up and down her legs. And she had lots of red spots

25 on her. She had a red spot on her stomach, where she had ,told

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

.~ ..

18

r": )

--)

1

Q.

Are you acquainted with a person who used to be known

me he had kicked her.

2

MR. MARTIN: I object to that as hea~say.

16 was called as a witness by the State~ and being sworn to tell

26

_J

3

THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

4

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

_\

5

MR. MARTIN: No questions of this witness, Your

6 Honor.

7

THE COURT: You may step down.

8

Call your next witness, Mr. Jackson.

9

MR. JACKSON: The State calls Kim King.

10

THE COURT: Come forward please, ma'am. Raise

11 your right hand.

12 (Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

13

THE COURT: Take your seat there in the witness

14

chair.

15 KIMBERLY LYNN KING

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

18 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. JACKSON:

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

Will you state your name, please, ma'am?

A.

Kimberly Lynn King.

Q.

Can you tell us where you live?

A.

Gainesville, Texas.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

4 her?

9 Mildred and J. D.

18

--... ...

1 2 3

5 6 7 8

10 11 12 13 14 15 16

as Stacy Stacy Kuykendall, now Stacy Willingham?

A. Yes.

Q.

Can you tell us how you came to be acquainted with

A.

We moved down the street from them. They'lived in

the Town East Division.

Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to?

A. Her and her brother Tracy, and her brother Tony and

Q.

Okay. And when was this, ma'am?

So it had to

A. It was when I was in the second grade. be almost, I don't know, 10 years ago.

THE COURT: Ms. King, would you pull that

microphone around in front of you to where you can talk into the microphone?

Q.

Are you acquainted with a person by the name of Todd

17 Willingham, the defendant in this case?

18 19

A. Q.

Yes.

Were you aware that he had a relationship with your

20 friend, Stacy, for a period of years?

21 22 23

A. Q. A.

Yes.

How would you characterize that relationship? Well, the first time that I ever met Todd was when

24 their sister, Susie, died and we went up there at her house

25 and told her; and that was the first time that I had ever met

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

27

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
:;.,.:.o~ 13
~ ~ ') 14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 him.

Q. Were Stacy and Todd together for a long period of

time, off and on, before they got married?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you characterize that relationship as abusive?

A. Yes.

MR. MARTIN: Objectt leading.

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection.

MR. MARTIN: Could we ask that the jury be

instructed to disregard the witness's--

THE COURT: The jury panel is so-instructed.

MR. MARTIN: We request a Mistrial.

THE COURT: Motion denied.

Q. Are you aware of the incidence when Todd beat Stacy?

A. Yes.

28

'.\

Q. Has she spoken to you about these incidents?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to Stacy Kuykendall at a time when she

Q. Let me back up and ask you another question. Do you

Q. Are you aware of incidents when he beat her while she

was pregnant?

A. Yes.

A. Yes.

and her boyfriend, Todd, were dividing up the property of

their relationship before they separated?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

18

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

remember

do you remember a statement by -- made by stacy

10 and she called us at my morn's house to go over and get her and

11 Amber; and when we got there, Todd was gone and she said that

12 Todd took the VCR and that he said it was an even trade for

13 14 15

Willingham in which she spoke about a -- a VCR?

A.

Yes.

Q. Can you tell us the substance of what she advised you about the VCR?

MR. MARTIN: We object to that as hearsay. THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

Q. A.

You may answer.

Well, it was right after her and Todd got in a fight,

Amber; that he would take the VCR and she could have Amber and

it was an even trade.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

16 CROSS EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. MARTIN:

18 19 20

Q. A. Q.

Ms. King, you're a senior in high school? No; I'm graduated.

And how long has it been since you have lived near

21 Todd and Stacy?

22 23

A. Q.

A little over a year.

And you haven't been around them in the past year;

24 have you?

25

A.

Yes.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

29

18

)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A.

Very often? No.

Q. Ever been in their home? A. No.

Q. Ever been around them together? A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. Right after the fire. Q.But not before?

A. Yes; before the fire.

Q. You were around them before the fire? A. Uh-huh.

Q. How long before the fire?

A. Q.

In November, I know I was around them.

Were you down here to stay over at their home?

A. No; they were down there to stay. They came down to

see us.

Q. A. Q. A.

Q. A.

Q. A.

In Gainesville?

Uh-huh.

You were friends?

Uh-huh.

Did they stay in your home?

No; they stayed in my si~ter's.

Did they come there just to see you? Well, they came to visit with our family.

30

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District

t

18

"-',')"

, ,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8 fire?

9

10

11 them?

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

Q.

Brought their kids?

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Uh-huh.

20

21

22

23

24

Q.

Stayed in your sister's home?

A.

Q.

A.

A.

Uh-huh.

31

,J

Q.

You have to say "yes" or "no" so she can get it--

A.

Yes.

Ede J. Swain, O!ficial Court Reporter, 13th District Court

Q.

--on the record. And that was a month before the

A.

It was around in there.

Q.

And then the -- after the fire you've been to see

A.

NOi they came -- well, we came down here for the

funeral; and then after the funeral, it was a little while

after that, not even a month, and they came down and stayed

with my sister.

What's your sister's name?

Katrina King.

When you say "came down," you mean went up to

19 Gainesville?

Yes.

Stayed in your sister's home?

Correct.

MR. MARTIN: Pass the witness.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

25 BY MR. JACKSON:

18

19

1 2

Yes.

What can you tell us about that relationship?

32

Q.

Did you have an opportunity to observe the kind of

6 A. Well, he just didn't act like a father; I mean,

7 she she didn't want to go to him; and when she would fall

8 or get hurt or something, I would go pick her up and cry

9 and she would cry and then he would come over and try to take

10 her away and she didn't want to go to him, she would cry more.

11 And he always blamed me. He said, "Well, you're the reason

12 she's so spoiled and she doesn't mind anything."

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

23

24 25

relationship that this defendant, Todd Willingham, had with

3 his daughter Amber?

4 5

A. Q.

Q. A.

Do you think he took good care of his children?

No; he was never there.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. MARTIN:

Q. Amber fell down one time; is that what you're telling us about?

A. No; I mean, she would be in her room -- in the -over at our house, playing, and, you know, she would fall or something or she -- a little -- another little kid would take a toy away from her and she would cry, and I would go over there to pick her up and he would just blame it on me because she was spoiled and she wouldn't mind or anything.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

19

,_:_.,k", .•

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Q. A.

And that's why you're saying he was a bad father? NOi he never was around to be a father.

Q. And you saw them one time a month before the fire and you saw them at the funeral; and then for a year prior to that time, you didn't see them?

A.

We saw them right after the funeral; they came down

to Gainesville.

Q. Yes, ma'ami but you saw them one time before the fire?

A. Q.

Well--

And then the year previous to the fire?

A. NOi we saw them from -- I mean, they would come down

or,

you know, we would come down and see them.

Q. And every time that you came down to see them or they came up to see you, they were together; weren't they?

A.

Yes.

MR. MARTIN: Pass the witness.

18 FURTHER RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

19 BY MR. JACKSON;

20 21

Q. A.

Why wasn't he around to be a father?

He just -- every time they came down to see us, he

22 would leave and go visit his -- his brother Meryl. He never

23

stayed around and he just never

you know, he didn't even

24 have anything to do with the kids.

25

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

,,-,,'_' _'_' -'-~-" -.

33

19

1 2 3 4 5

MR. MARTIN: No further questions. THE COURT: You may step down.

Call your next witness.

MR. JACKSON: Randy Petty.

THE COURT: Come forward. Come right on through

6 there. You haven't been sworn, either; have you?

7 PROSPECTIVE WITNESS: No, sir.

8 9 10 11

THE COURT: Raise your right hand. (Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

THE COURT: Take your seat in the witness chair.

RANDY PETTY

12 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

13 14

the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows, to wit:

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION

16 BY MR. JACKSON:

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Would you state your name, please? My name?

Yes, sir?

Randy Petty.

Where do you live, Mr. Petty? Gainesville, Texas.

Are you acquainted with a person named Cameron Todd

Willingham, the defendant in this case?

A. Yes, sir.

34

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

)

1 2 3 4 5 6

Q.

How do you happen to be acquainted with him?

A. I met him about a little over three years ago through his brother.

Q. A.

Who -- which brother was that? Davie Porter.

Okay. How did that meeting come about? What was the

Q.

7 subject matter of that meeting?

8 9 10 11 12

13

14 15 16 17 18

A.

I raise bulldogs and Davie and Todd owned dogs, or

used to own dogs.

Q.

Did Todd Willingham ever make a statement to you with

regard to any violence toward -- toward a dog or an animal?

A. Yeah; he said him and Davie--

MR. MARTIN: I object: leading and hearsay. THE COURT: .1 overrule the objection.

MR. MARTIN: It's irrelevant.

THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

Please continue.

Q.

A.

He said him and Davie stole a dog off a guy and took

19 it out and killed it.

20 21

Q. A.

Did he say how they killed it?

He said he beat it in the head with a stick and then

22 run over it with a car.

23 24

25 BY MR. DUNN:

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness

CROSS EXAMINATION

Ede J~ Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

35

:1

19

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Q. A. Q. A.

Mr. Petty, I believe?

11 12 13 14

17 18

20

21

24

Yes, sir.

All rigbt. Did anyone tell you whose dog that was?

Yes, sir.

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Was that person a friend of yours? No.

Did you go to the police about it? No.

Mr. Petty, you have known Todd Willingham only

36

. .1

10 through that one incident, or for--

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th Dis~rict Court

A. Q. A. Q.

No; several.

--a long period time?

I have known him for a long period of time. Seems awfully strange that the District Attorney

15 asked you about that one incident. Do you know it to be true,

16 or were you just told that?

A. Q.

I was just told that.

You've never seen anything that would document that

19 as being truthful?

A.

No.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

22 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. JACKSON:

Q.

That

that was a brag Todd Willingham made to you;

25 was it not?

.. ~.~._! ... C'/:~:.>

"--,.'4::1-',,"" .. ,,"'

.)

1

A.

It was -- that's what he told me.

2

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

3 RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. DUNN:

5

6

7

8

9

Q.

You, Mr. Petty, fight dogs; don't you?

A.

No, sir. It's against the law to fight dogs.

Q.

Well, what do you -- don't you raise fighting dogs?

A.

I had one dog I used for stud purposes.

Q.

And why is that dog used for stud purposes? Because

10 he's a fighting dog?

1;1,

12

13

14

15

16

A.

Because he's registered.

Q.

A registered Bull Terrior; isn't he?

A.

Yes.

Q.

Better known as "Pit Bull," I guess.

A.

Yes.

Q.

And what kind of people breed to your dog? (sic)

17 Those that have Collies and Dachsunds and Beagles?

18

19 pups.

20

A.

No; those that have registered pit females sell the

Q.

And you attend dog fights and have participated in

21 dog fighting quite regularly; don't you?

22

23

24

25

A.

No, sir.

37

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

THE COURT: You may step down.

Ede J. Swain, Of~icial Court Reporter, 13th District Court

~. __ .~-. :-_ .. -:_. _._ .. -,. __ ,._ .. -.-~-

19

1 2

MR. JACKSON: May this witness be excused?

THE COURT: Do you all need this witness further?

3 You're excused; and you may leave when you get ready.

4 5 6 7

MR. PETTY: Okay.

THE COURT: Call your next witness. MR. JACKSON: I call Jimmy Hensley.

THE COURT: Come forward, please. Were you sworn

8 the other day, sir?

9 PROSPECTIVE WITNESS: Yeah.

10 11 12

13

THE COURT: Take your seat, please. MR. JACKSON: May I proceed?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

JIMMY HENSLEY

14

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

15 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth was

16 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

17 DIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. JACKSON:

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Would you state your name for the record, please? Jimmy Hensley.

How are you employed?

I'm a detective with the Corsicana Police Department. How long have you been employed in that capacity?

A little over two years.

Can you tell us what you did before that?

38

...... ---------------------------------___.·2:

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

19

,." ......... )

. .

20

1:'.

1

A.

I was a patrolman for the Police Department.

2

3

4

6

7

9

10

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

22

23

24

25

Q .

How long have you been a peace officer?

39

A.

Roughly, 18 years.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter; 13th District Court

5 have you become acquainted with Cameron Todd Willingham?

Q.

In the course of your employment as a peace officer,

A.

Yes; I have.

Q.

Are you familiar with his reputation in this

8 community, for being a peaceful and law-abiding citizen?

A.

No.

Q.

Okay. Are you familiar with his reputation in the

11 community?

A.

Yes; I am.

Q.

Okay. Is that reputation good, or bad?

A.

Bad.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.
MR. MARTIN: No questions.
THE COURT: You may step down.
MR. JACKSON: I call Ted Montgomery.
THE COURT: Come forward, please, sir.
MR. JACKSON: This witness has not 'been sworn, 21 Your Honor.

THE COURT: Raise your right hand.

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

THE COURT: Take your seat, please.

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed, Your Honor?

1 TED MONTGOMERY

2 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

3 the truth, the whole truth· and nothing but the truth, was

4 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. JACKSON:

7 8 9

10

Will you state your name for the record, please? Ted Montgomery.

Ted, how are you--

THE COURT: Excuse me; pull the mike around,

Q. A. Q.

11 please, sir.

12 A. Ted Montgomery--

13 Q. How are you employed?

14 A. I'm a Police Detective with the Ardmore Police

15 Department, in Oklahoma.

16 17 18 19 20 21

How long have you been employed by that agency? Approximately nine years.

Q. A.

Q. In the course of your occupation, have you come in contact with a person by the name of Cameron Todd Willingham?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q.

Is that the same person who's the defendant in this

22 case?

23 24

Yes, sir.

A.

Q.

Can you tell us how you happened to come in contact

25 with Cameron Todd Willingham during that period of time?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

1

2

3

A.

Some investigations on different types of crimes that

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

14

15

16

19

21

22

24

25

I was working on.

Q.

Are you familiar with his reputation in your area and

41

..

I

4 your community for being a peaceful and law-abiding citizen?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that reputation good, or bad?
A. Bad.
MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. DUNN: ..., Q.

Mr. Montgomery, at one time, you arrested Mr.

12 Willingham for a theft and later found out he was in jail the

13 entire time that you thought that he had committed this crime;

is that right?

A. I don't remember that incident, sir.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

17 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. JACKSON:

Q.

How many times would you say you've arrested Todd

20 Willingham?

A.

Approximately three or four times.

23 connection with crimes?

Q.

How many times have you interrogated him in

A.

Approximately six to seven times.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

20

1 2 3

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. DUNN:

Q.

Well, Mr. -- Officer Montgomery, if you interrogated

42

6 7 8

11 12 13 14

17 18 19 20 21

23 24 25

A.

Well, I--

MR. JACKSON: I believe I'll have to object to

4 him six or seven times, then there were many times that he was

5 not guilty~ is that right?

that as being an assumption. That's -- this

this detective

9 does not determine whether people are guilty or not guilty,

10 Your Honor.

THE COURT: I sustain the objection.

Q. Why wasn't he arrested all six or seven times, Officer Montgomery?

A.

The best way I can answer your question, sir, is,

15 either there wasn't enough evidence or I just probably

16 couldn't put the case together enough to get any type of

conviction.

Q. And I'm sure he's not the only person you questioned in regard to some of the questioning you did with him. Were there other suspects?

A.

Most of the time that I've -- I've visited with Todd,

22 he was the main person that I was looking at.

')

Q.

Mr. Montgomery, didn't you, at one time, tell Todd

Willingham that you would put him in the penitentiary if it took you 20 years to do it?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

20

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10

A.

I am trying to think if I made that statement, sir.

43

-':

A. Q. A.

That I dealt with?

I possibly could have said that if he didn't stop the kind of things that he was doing, that he would probably go to the penitentiary.

Q. Were any of his offenses, Officer Montgomery, violent

ones?

Yes.

Q.

I wouldn't say they were violent.

If anything, they were little petty theft and minor

11 things; is that right?

12 13 14 15 16

A.

I don't know so much about the petty theft. Would

you like me to relate what some of the things were?

Honor.

Q. A.

Well, they were misdemeanors; were they not? The -- some of them werei-yes, sir.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

17 FURTHER RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. JACKSON:

19

Q.

What were some of the things that you were involved

20 in investigating?

21

MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, we object to this under

22 the Rule prohibiting the introduction of evidence regarding

23 extraneous offenses.

24 25

MR. JACKSON: They've opened the door, Your

Ede J. swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

20

)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Q.

MR. MARTIN: That's our objection. THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

Can you tell us what kind of offense ~- can you tell

12

13

14 15

18

20 21

24 2S

us what type of offenses you did investigate with regard to Cameron Todd Willingham?

A. As far as the misdemeanor-type offenses would be contributing to the delinquency of minors. Felonies would be thefts of residence and auto burglaries.

9 Q. With regard to contributing to the delinquency of

10 minors, in Todd's case, what type of conduce did -- did that

11 consist of?

44

A.

That

where there was younger persons, ages

anywhere from 11 to 15 years of age, giving them paint to inhale and beer.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

16 FURTHER RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. DUNN:

Q.

Officer Montgomery, Todd Willingham had a condition

19 of paint sniffing; didn't he?

A. Q.

Yes, sir.

In fact he sniffed paint and abused paint fumes a lot

22 during the period of time that he was in your area; is that

23 right?

A. Q.

I would say: Yes, sir.

Officer Montgomery, do you feel like that the paint

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

20

. ..- ).

! .

19

20

1

THE COURT: Come forward please, sir. You

sniffing at that point in his life affected his judgment?

2

A.

I would have to say that anybody that would inhale

3 intoxicants like that, yes, they'd probably impair their

4 judgment.

5

Q.

And during the entire time you knew him, he sniffed

6 paint, in spite of going to several drug rehab places, and

7 abused paint and paint dlstillates; is that right?

8

A.

I would have to answer that, "Yes."

9

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

10

MORE FURTHER RE-DIR§CT EXAMINATION

11

BY MR. JACKSON:

12

Q.

So rehabilitation was never successful, in your

13 opinion, as far as Todd Willingham was concerned?

14

A.

That would be true.

15

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

16

MR. DUNN: We have no more questions.

17

'l!

THE COURT: You may step down.

18

MR. JACKSON: May this witness be excused?

THE COURT: Do you all need this witness further?

MR. DUNN: No, Your Honor.

21

THE COURT: You're excused; and you may leave

22 when you get ready, sir.

23 Call your next witness.

MR. JACKSON: Larry Denison.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

24

25

45

20

to,)

""·'···'~~Es"1 __ ;._f.·'d)!::";~

"'..:\, .. ' .. ~.

1

Q.

How long have you been employed in law enforcement?

46

haven't been previously sworn; have you?

PROSPECTIVE WITNESS: No, sir.

3

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

4

THE COURT: Take your seat.

5 LARRY DENISON

6 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

7 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

8 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. JACKSON:

11

Q.

Would you state your name for the record, please,

12 sir?

13

A.

Larry Denison.

14

Q.

Larry, how are you: employed?

15

A.

I'm an investigator with the Cooke County Sheriff's f,.

16 Department.

17

THE COURT: Would you pull that mike around in

18 front of you, please?

19

20

21

OFFICER DENISON: Okay.

Q.

Where is -- where is Cooke County?

A.

It's in North Texas. We're about 60 miles north of

22 Dallas.

23

24

25

Q.

What -- what's your county seat there?

A.

Gainesville.

Ede J. Swain~ Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

1

1

A.

A total of about'ls years.

2

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

Are you familiar with the reputation of Cameron Todd

3 Willingham in that community for being a peaceful and

4 law-abiding citizen?

A.

Yes; I am.

Q.

Is that reputation good, or bad?

A.

It's bad.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

MR. DUNN: We have no questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may--

MR. MARTIN: One -- one -- one moment, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY·MR. MARTIN:

Q.

Officer Denison, did you arrest Todd Willingham for

16 stealing a pack of cigarettes?

A.

No, sir; I did not.

MR. MARTIN: Pass the witness.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.
THE COURT: You may step down.
MR. JACKSON: May this witness--
THE COURT: Do you all need this witness further?
MR. JACKSON: --be excused? MR. MARTIN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You're excused, and you may leave

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th Dis~rict Court i

.';.~ .. ", ... ..;. " .. ;

1

1

Q.

How long have you been a peace officer, sir?

when you get ready.

2

MR. DENISON: Thank you, sir.

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

4

MR. JACKSON: I call -- the State calls Richard

5 Schlaudroff.

6

THE COURT: Come forward, please, sir. Raise

7 your right hand.

8 (Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

9

THE COURT: Take your seat there in the witness

10 chair.

11

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed, Your Honor?

12

THE COURT: Proceed.

13

RICHARD SCHLAUDROFF

)

14

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

15 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

16 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

17 DIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. JACKSON:

19

Q.

Would you state your name, please?

20

A.

Rich Schlaudroff, S-C-H-L-A-U-D-R-O-F-F.

21

Q.

Can you tell us how you are employed, sir?

22

A.

Yes. I'm employed by the Gainesville Police

23 Department; and I am a Captain in the Criminal Investigation

24 Division.

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

1

1

THE COURT: Take your seat, please.

A.

About nineteen and a half years.

Q.

In the course of your duties, have you become

3 familiar with the reputation of Cameron Todd Willingham for

4 being a peaceful and law-abiding citizen?

5

A.

Yes, sir.

6

Q.

Is that reputation good, or bad, sir?

7

A.

It's bad.

8

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

9

MR. MARTIN: No questions.

10

THE COURT: You may step down

11

MR. JACKSON: May this witness be excused, Your

12 Honor?

13

THE COURT: You done?

14

t4R. MARTIN: Yes, sir.

15

THE COURT: You're excused; and you may leave

16 when you get ready, sir.

17

MR. SCHLAUDROFF: Thank you.

18

MR. JACKSON: Thank you.

19

MR. SCHLAUDROFF: Uh-huh.

20

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

21

MR. JACKSON: Maria Malowney.

22

THE COURT: Come forward, please, ma'am. Raise

23 your right hand.

24 (prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

4

1

)

1 2 3

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed? THE COURT: Yes.

MARIA TASSIE MALOWNEY

4 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

6 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. JACKSON:

9 Q. Would you state your name, please, ma'am?

10 A. Maria Tassie Malowney, M-A-L-O-W-N-E-Y.

11 Q. How are you employed?

12 A. I'm Assistant District Attorney in Carter County,

13 Oklahoma. I've been employed there just over 10 years.

14

In the course of your duties as a Prosecutor in

Q.

15 Oklahoma, have you become familiar with a person by the name

16 of Cameron Todd Willingham?

17 18

A. Q.

Yes; I have.

Are you aware that Cameron Todd Willingham is on

19 trial here today and has been convicted of the offense of

20 capital murder?

21 22

A. Q.

Yes; I am.

Can you tell us how you became acquainted with

23 Cameron Todd Willingham?

24

During the time that he lived in Carter County, I

A .

. 25 prosecuted him on numerous occasions, both as a juvenile and

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

1

r=: )

.

1

MR. DUNN: Your Honor, we would object to any

as an adult.

2

Q .

Can you tell us, very briefly, the nature of the

3 offenses for which you've prosecuted Cameron Todd Willingham?

4

A.

The vast majority of the cases were property

5 theft-type offenses. There were a number of misdemeanors. I

6 have a list, if you need me to refer to it. Almost all of the

7 cases, even the property theft offenses, involved the use of

8 some sort of substance, usually paint. There were some

9 misdemeanor offenses that were direetly related to the use of

10 paint, either D.UI drugs--driving-under-the-influence of

11 drugs--public intoxication, three contributing to the

12 delinquency of a minor charges, involving giving minors paint.

13 There was one misdemeanor weapons charge that went

14

hand-in-hand with one of the public intoxication offenses.

15

Q.

I believe I've asked you to -- to -- or you have

16 compiled a synopsis of the offenses with which Mr. Willingham

17 has been prosecuted; is that correct?

18

A.

Yes; I have.

19

Q.

Could you give us a synopsis of those offenses?

20

A.

Yes; I can. I do not have the synopsis of the

21 juvenile offenses because I couldn't release those. I know we

22 star~ed in with him since, as I recall, he was about 15 or 16

23 years of age. The felonies--

24

25 reference to juvenile offenses; highly irrelevant and not

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

51

1

1 2

3

4 5 6 7 8 9

10

admissible under our Constitution.

MR. JACKSON: The -- the law in the State of Texas with regard to capital murder cases is different from

the law with regard to normal evidence of

of prior criminal

11 oldest and progressing forward: In 1986, in May, he was

12 charged with burglary, Second Degree. That was of a bicycle

13 shop in Ardmore. He was initially placed on probation in June

14 15

history, Your Honor. Ms. Malowney has stated that she will not be able to go into those matters; and simply her reference to those matters, I do not believe, would be objectionable.

THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

Q. A.

Please proceed, ma'am.

With regards to the felonies, starting from the

16 was for people between the ages of 18 and 22 or 23, as I

17 recall. So he was sentenced under that Act and placed on

18 probation. Ultimately, when he was convicted of some of the

19 other felonies in July of 1989, that original sentence was

20 modified and he was given a deferred sentence, until January 9

21 of 1990, and he was also given 74 days in the Carter county

22 Jail as part of that offense. In September of 1986, he was

23 charged with three Second Degree burglaries. All of those

24

of 1986. At that time, Oklahoma had something called a

Nonviolent Intermediate

Intermediate Offender Act. That

were of an automobile. Those cases were kicked out at the

J

25 preliminary hearing. In September of 1986, he was charged

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

2

.1"'.''''.-)

0"., .

"'J

1

moved to dismiss that in May of 1988. We then refiled a

with feloniously pointing a weapon against two other

2

18-year-olds. That charge was dismissed at the request of the

3 State. What had happened -- I was the Prosecutor that handled

4 that case -- when the boys first came in and told us about the

5 offense, they related a weapon that they thought was a rifle.

6 When we ultimately recovered the weapon, it turned out that it

7 was a BB gun. And under Oklahoma law, at that time you could

8 not file that particular charge when a BB gun was involved, as

9 opposed to a regular rifle. In October of 1986, he was

10 charged with grand larceny of a bicycle. In April of 1987, he

11 was convicted of that charge, was sentenced to two years

12 probation. It was a felony conviction. And he was also

13

ordered to do 60 days in the Carter County Jail. In April of

14

1988, we filed a Motion to Vacate that sentence, to do away

15 with the probation, because he had not complied with the terms

16 of probation. He did that which he was supposed to do and we

17

18 Motion to Vacate the suspended sentence in February of 1989,

19 based on one of the misdemeanors, which I'll later get to. In

20 March of 1989, a Motion was sustained and the Court sentenced

21 him to the Regimented Discipline Program with the Department

22 of Corrections. He was actually sent to the penitentiary, but

23 rather than being incarcerated with other adult felons -~ it's

24 a special Boot Camp Program, for lack of a better term

25 that's what the Court sentenced him to. He completed the Boot

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

53

r :

2

1

Going back to the misdemeanors; again to the oldest and

54

'\

Camp, was brought back to Carter County in July of 1989, and

2

the Court gave him a two-year suspended sentence -- again; a

3

conviction on that charge -- with another 74 days in the

4 Carter County Jail. At that time, the Court also ordered that

5 he complete a program called TADD, T-A-D-D -- I'm sorry; I

6 don't recall what the acronym stands for -- it was a substance

7 abuse treatment program with the Department of Corrections, at

8 the time. He was also ordered to take part in at least one AA

9 or NA meeting per week and also to take part in urinalyses

10 every week and a half. In 1987, in April, he was charged with

11 two counts of larceny of a motorcycle. That charge was

12 dismissed on Motion of the State. My records do not reflect

13 why. In June of 1987, he was charged with possession and

14

concealment of stolen property, a guitar. He was bound over

15

to stand trial at the Preliminary hearing. That was in

16 September of 1987. By the time this case came up for trial in

17 December of last -- of that year, we could no longer find the

18 victim; he did not show up for trial and, consequently, the

19 case was dismissed. That's all of the felonies.

20

21 coming more recently: In April of 1986, he was charged with

22 carrying a concealed weapon, a Lark blade knife, and public

23 intoxication. And that was paint. In April of 1986, he was

24 convicted on both charges, was ordered to do four days in the

25 County Jail on the weapons charge and was ordered to pay fine

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

2 1
) 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
:, __ r,._ .13
14
-j 15
16
17
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19
20
21
22
23
24
,_"',""'.
25 and costs on the other misdemeanor. In May of 1986, he was charged with entering a building with unlawful intent -- that was a private home -- and ;also with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. It was a 12-year-old child to whom he had supplied paint. He was convicted on both charges, was ordered to pay a substantial amount of restitution -- quite a few hundred dollars, as I recall -- because of the damage done to the home; was ordered to do one year probation, with 15 days in the Carter County Jail on the breaking and entering charge, and was ordered to do six months probation, with 15 days in the Carter County Jail on the contributing charge. Both of those sentences ran at the same time--they were concurrent. In November of 1986, he was again charged two times with contributing to the delinquency of minor. One was an ll-year-old and the other one was a 12-year-old to whom he had supplied paint. The Judge ordered him to do a total of 60 days in the Carter County Jail; 30 days -- excuse me -- on each charge. In September of 1988, he was charged with driving under the influence of liquor and/or drugs. In this case, it was, again, paint. He was convicted in November of 1988. The Judge ordered that he be given one year's probation on condition that he check into an in-patient treatment

rehabilitation program for

specifically for paint abuse.

And as part of that sentence, the State agreed not to revoke his felony probation. Ultimately, that sentence was vacated

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

55

2

)

3

.i!spjitiiM'''~1ftE.HQ~

.. '- .. ~;~'.''_'

1

Q.

Let me show you what's been marked State's Exhibit

in February of 1989, because of another misdemeanor that was

2

committed. And on July 19th of 1989, the Judge gave him

3 another year's probation on that charge, to run consecutive to

4 the last felony that I had mentioned. And, finally, in

5 February of 1989, he was charged with larceny of merchandise,

6

felon -- I'm sorry

misdemeanor shoplifting: approximately

7 five dollars worth of film from one of the stores in town.

8 And in March of 1989, when he was sent to the penitentiary on

9 a felony case, he was also given 30 days in the Carter County

10 Jail consecutive to the other charges.

11

Q.

Ms. Malowney, have you ever seen anybody who's gotten

12 more chances than Cameron Todd Willingham to rehabilitate

13 himself?

14

A.

I really can't think of any. And I certainly cannot

15 think of any that were brought in front of the Court on

16 M~tions to Vacate nearly as many times, that were given

17 chances to either go into rehabilitation or some similar

18 program, instead of just being incarcerated.

19 (State's Exhibit No. 61 was marked for identification.)

20

21

22 No. 61, and it purports to be a penitentiary packet relating

23 to felony offenses in which Mr. Willingham was ultimately

24 incarcerated. Would you take a look at this and tell me if it

25 applies to the same Cameron Todd Willingham, who's the

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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the cases which you've testified regarding.

A. Yes; they are. I recognize my signature on the

defendant in this -- in this case and also the defendant in

4 copies of a number of these documents and also that of our

5 special District Judge.

6

MR. JACKSON: I offer this into evidence as

7 State's Exhibit 61, at this time, and ask that it be admitted.

8

9 10

11

12

13

14 BY MR. DUNN:

MR. DUNN: May I se~ it, Your Honor? (Perusing

exhibit.) May I take the witness on Voir Dire--

THE COURT: Yes, sir-MR. DUNN: --Your Honor?

THE COURT: --yes, sir.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

15

Mrs. Malowney, is it a fact that the only signature

Q.

16 that's in here that belongs to you is on a Motion to Vacate

17 18

the Order and Suspension of the Execution of the Sentence?

A.

I know there's at least one. I thought I saw two

19 similar Motions in there. I thought there was an Amended

20 Motion in there, as well. There may not be.

21

MR. DUNN: Your Honor, we object to them. This

22 witness cannot verify that those are truly Pen Packets. All

23 she can verify is her own signature on one page in there that

24 25

says that she made a Motion to Vacate the Judgment.

MR. JACKSON: This is a self~proving document,

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25 Your Honor. It's been linked to this defendant through th~

personal knowledge of Ms. Malowney.

Based on that, we'd offer

it.

THE COURT: I overrule your objection and it's

admitted.

(State's Exhibit No. 61, an Oklahoma Pen Packet on defendant, was offered and admitted into evidence, over objection.)

MR. JACKSON: I believe I'll pass the witness at

this time.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. DUNN:

Q. Mrs. Malowney, the incidents that you have reviewed,

I believe, if my notes are correct, were almost all connected

directly to abuse of paint or sniffing of paint?

A. I would have to agree with that; yes, sir.

Q. Having been with the District Attorney's Office for

10 years, I'm sure you are familiar with this type of drug

problem and/or addiction; are you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

Well, explain it to the jury. What

what are we

talking about? Is it -- and I don't mean to be facetious,

ma'am, but I would like for you to go to the basics, because I

don't understand it. Do you buy a gallon of pain·t and carry

it around and sniff it all day? Or what -- what is the

process?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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Q.

I understand. But is this addiction an on-going,

A.

No, sir. The process is, typically, it's either

2

silver or gold paint. The other types of paint

sometimes

3

clear

the other types of paint, whatever the chemical in

4 it -- in the paint is that makes you high, is not found in

5 other colored paints. Typically, what these people do -- and

6 I've -- from having reviewed the records and -- and from my

7 own recollection in the -- in that -- the actual

8 paint-sniffing cases, what the defendant did would be go -- to

9 go to a store and buy spray paint in those small round bottles

10 that you find, that most people use for household use. They,

11 typically, spray it onto a sock, into a -- an empty Coke can,

12 something that will concentrate the odor--the aroma--and then

13 find, usually, it's a excluded spot, whether an empty house

14

or -- or an alleyway -- some secluded spot -- and start

15

inhaling that concentrated aroma. Usually when the people are

16 caught, the affects of the paint sniffing are seen on them.

17 They -- it's very common to see gold paint around the face or

18 on the clothing. You can usually find the -- the evidence of

19 the paint sniffing around the person.

20

Q.

Mrs. Malowney, is this an addiction-type situation?

21

A.

It is an addiction-type situation, just as alcohol

22 addiction or any other addiction. It is an addiction, but a

2~ person can get cured from it.

24

25 li_e the use of crack cocaine or something, until the cycle is

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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2

Q.

Mrs. Malowney, as counsel for this defendant, I have

1 broken?

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me, Your Honor; I think I'm

3 going to have to object at this point. I probably should have

4 objected earlier, but, this -- obviously, Ms. Malowney has

5 personal knowledge of the mechanics of this type of abusive

6 behavior. But from -- from a -- a -- a practical standpoint,

7 I would object to these -- this type of testimony being

8 elicited -- elicted from a -- a lawyer, instead of a doctor or

9 psychologist.

10

MR. DUNN: May it please--

11

THE COURT: I sustain the objection.

12

MR. DUNN: All right, Your Honor; may we have the

13

jury excused and make a Bill on this while we have this

14

witness present?

15

THE COURT: Members of the jury -- jury panel, if

16 you will, go back in the courtroom <sic}j please.

17 (The jury entered the jury room while the following was made of record outside the

18 jury's hearing:)

19

THE COURT: Hold up just a minute. This

20 courtroom is not in recess.

21

MR. DUNN: Your Honor, may we?

22

THE COURT: Sure.

23 DEFENSE'S BILL OF EXCEPTIONS

24 BY MR. DUNN:

25

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/~) an obligation to bring forth all the mitigating evidence that is available on his behalf in the Punishment Stage of this case. Now, my question goes to you is: What is your knowledge in regard to the addictive nature of paint sniffing or paint accelerant?

A. All I can say, sir, is that from -- from the cases that I have dealt with, again, just like any other addiction, I've never known of anyone to kick the habit without some sort of outside intervention. Other than that, as to the mechanics of it, I don't honestly think I can tell you anything in great--

Q. All right. A. -- detail.

Q. Mrs. Malowney, the efforts that were made by your office were all in consideration of the fact that it was fairly evident that Mr. Willingham was addicted to paint sniffing; is that right?

A. I'm not sure I understand the question, sir. Yes; it was fairly evident that Mr. Willingham was addicted to paint sniffing.

Q. And that's the reason that he was given Boot Camps and--

THE COURT: Let me ask you this: Mr. Dunn, is this what you want to put out in front of the jury?

MR. DUNN: Yes, Your Honor.

Ede J! Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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a sufficient pr9fessional basis or she was not qualified to

62

THE COURT: Well, let's bring the jury in.

2

MR. DUNN: I just have to prove mitigating

3 circumstances--

4

THE COURT: Well, I -- 1--

5

MR. DUNN: --and I was -- was trying to explain.

6 I have no idea what she knows, and that was the reason for my

7 questions--

8

THE COURT: Well--

9

MR. DUNN: --to ask her to explain this for us.

10

THE COURT: Let me visit with you all just a

11 minute.

12 (The following was made of record at the bench and outside the hearing of the

13 witness and audience:)

14

THE COURT: I don't believe this is what you were

15 into -- you were getting into whenever we sent the jury out.

16

MR. DUNN: Well, I was trying to find out if it's

17 addictive; and she said it was.

18

MR. JACKSON: But 1--

19

MR. DUNN: And the next area was why he was given

20 all of these breaks; and it's because of his--

21

THE COURT: Well, what -- what was it you

22 objected to, John?

23

MR. JACKSON: I think I said that she didn't have

24

25 give an opinion on the dynamics of--

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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A.

Yes, sir.

THE COURT: I understand that; but she is

2

MR. JACKSON: --abuse.

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THE COURT: What -- what he's asking her right

4 now is what she's already testified to.

5

MR. JACKSON: Yeah; it's the same thing.

6

THE COURT: I thought you was fixing to get in

7 deeper than what you are right now. I think that's where you

8 are heading.

9

MR. DUNN: Oh, no; I don't know enough.

10

THE COURT: Okay.

11

Bring the jury panel back.

12

(The jury entered the courtroom and the following proceedings were had:)

THE COURT: Proceed, Mr. Dunn; the jury panel is

15 back.

16 CROSS EXAMINATION RESUMED

17 BY MR. DUNN:

Q.

Mrs. Malowney, I believe the last answer that you

18

19 gave me was that you felt that paint sniffing and the -- the

63

A.

Yes, sir.

20 contents of properties of paint was addictive; is that right?

21

22

Q.

Did you recognize, from the behavior of Todd

23 Willingham, that he was addicted or had a severe problem with

24 paint sniffing?

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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THE COURT: You're excused, and you may leave

Q.

And does that explain the amount of suspended

2

sentences and/or Boot Camp Programs and/or probations that

3 we~e accorded him through your office?

4

A.

No, sir. Those were not accorded to him through our

5 office.

6

Q.

All right. Were they ordered by the Court after

7 listening to all of the evidence?

8

A.

Yes, sir.

9

Q.

To your -- go ahead, ma'am; I didn't mean to step on

10 your toes.

11

A.

Yes, sir; they were accorded to him by the Court.

12 I'm still not sure I agree with your question, though.

Q.

All right. Mrs. Malowney, your contact with Todd

13

14

Willingham was, obviously, in Oklahoma, in your county; is

15 that right?

16

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A.

Yes, sir.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions.

THE COURT: You may step down.

MS. MALOWNEY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Do you all need this witness further?

MR. DUNN: No, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: No; this witness may be excused.

25 when you get ready~ I think--

Ede J. Swain, pfficial Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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your seat, sir.

MR. JACKSON: May I approach the bench?

3

(The following was made of record and was outside of the hearing of the jury, witness, and audience:)

4

THE COURT: I'm fixing to take a break.

5

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

6

THE COURT: What is it?

7

MR. JACKSON: Okay. I had -- I was going tell you

8 I had one more little short witness.

9

THE COURT: Okay. We'll just take it.

10

MR. JACKSON: And that way we could get that

11 thing out of the way.

12

THE COURT: Yeah; that's fine; you bet.

13

MR. MARTIN: That's it?

14

MR. JACKSON: No; I've got two psychiatrists, but

15 one's not supposed to be here for another 20 minutes.

16 (The following was within the hearing of all: )

17

18

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

19

MR. JACKSON: John H. Bailey.

20

THE COURT: Come forward, please, sir.

21 Mr. Bailey, I believe you were sworn yesterday; is that

22 correct?

23

MR. BAILEY: I was.

24

THE COURT: Take your seat -- excuse me; take

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court ~~porter, 13th District Court

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1 2

JOHN HENRY BAILEY

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

3 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

4 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. JACKSON:

7 8 9

10 11

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Would you state your name for the record, please? John Henry Bailey.

Mr. Bailey, where do you live? Twelve oh four West Eleventh.

Are you acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Cameron Todd

12 Willingham?

13

Yes, sir; I am.

A.

14 Q. How is it that you're acquainted with them?

15 A. Just from living across the street from them.

16 Q. You testified earlier in the trial of this case, I

17 believe.

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 20

Q. Let me ask you a question, Mr. Bailey.

Did Stacy

Willingham ever come to your house, seeking help?

21

Yes, sir; one time when her and Todd were split up

A.

22 and he was threatening her and driving around in front of the

23 house and hollering obscenities at her.

24 25

MR. MARTIN: I object to that as hearsay. THE COURT: I overrule the objection.

Ede J~ Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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25 Q.

You may continue, sir.

67

A.

Anyway, he was driving around, coming by the

neighborhood and hollering obscenities at the house. And she

came over and used the telephone to call the police.

Q. Did she tell you why she wanted to use the telephone?
A. She felt like her--
MR. MARTIN: We object to that as hearsay.
THE COURT: IIII overrule the objection.
Q. You may answer, sir.
A. She felt like she was in danger; she and her
children.
Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see this defendant strike her?

A.

Yes, sir, I did, one afternoon. Her and Todd were on

the porch, having somewhat of an argument; and he did slap her

with an open hand.

Q. Did you ever have an occasion to hear arguments

within the house?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.

What

what was the nature of t~ose sounds you heard

from that house?

A. At one time I heard a lot of arguing going on; and

being the nosey neighbor that I am, I stepped out on the front

porch just to listen. And I heard him screaming at her and

her screaming at him; and then finally I heard him say--

Ede J. Swain, Official Court ~e.p'orter, 13th Distr~c;;:t Co~t't.'

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THE COURT: The jury panel is back in place.

MR. DUNN: We object, Your Honor~ nonresponsive.

2

MR. JACKSON: No, Your Honor. I believe this was

3 the question I asked, Your Honor. I'll be happy to reask it.

4

THE COURT: I -- I overrule the objection.

5

Q.

Please continue, sir.

6

A.

And at one point I heard him say, "Get up, bitch, and

7 I'll hit you again."

8

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

9

MR. DUNN: We have no questions, Your Honor.

10

THE COURT: You may step down.

11

MR. JACKSON: May this witness be excused, Your

12 Honor?

13

THE COURT: 00 you all need this witness?

14

You're excused; you may leave when you get ready.

15

Members of the jury panel, we're going to be in recess

16 for a few minutes. Remember the previous instructions, and

17 we'll see you back shortly.

18

19

(Recess was had~ after which the following occurred: )

20

21

THE COURT: Bring the panel in, Bill.

22

23

(The jury entered the courtroom and the following occurred:)

24

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~. Mr. Jackson, call your next witness.

MR. JACKSON: Don Sullivan.

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn.) THE COURT: Take your seat, please.

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed?

DON SULLIVAN

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows, to wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Would you state your name for the record, please? A. Don Sullivan.

Q. Don, how are you employed?

A. I'm a detective sergeant from Navarro County Sheriff's Department.

Q.

In that -- in that capacity -_ let me ask you:

How long have you been in law enforcement here in Navarro County?

A. Nearly 15 years.

Q. Don, what are your duties as a -- as a Deputy Sheriff in Navarro County?

A. I'm a criminal investigator; and I'm also in charge of the Identification Section.

Q. With regard to your identification duties, can you

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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A.

Yes, sir. I have a basic -- a certificate in basic

give me a synopsis of your background, experience and education insofar as fingerprint identification is concerned?

4 fingerprints, from the Dallas Sheriff's Academy. I have a

5 certificate in advanced fingerprints, from Dallas Sheriff's

6 Academy. I have a certificate in advanced latent fingerprint

7 comparison, from the Dallas Sheriff's Academy. I have a

8 certificate in advanced latent fingerprint techniques, from

9 the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have a Batchelor's

10 Degree. The major is Criminal Justice. And within that

11 major, I have a course entitled, "The Science of

12 Fingerprints."

13 14 15 16 17

Q.

Do you have an opportunity to examine and compare

fingerprints on a regular basis?

A. Yes; I do.

Q.

Let me hand you what's been marked State's Exhibit

No. 62, which is, apparently, a fingerprint card. Can you

18 identify that for me, please?

19

Yes, sir; this is a fingerprint card. I took these

A.

20 fingerprints from Mr. Willingham, today_

21

Is that the same Cameron Todd Willingham, the

Q.

22 defendant, present in the courtroom today?

23

Yes; he is.

Can you identify him, please?

He's the gentleman in the suit -- gray suit. He's

24 25

A. Q. A.

Eoe J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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next to -- between the counselors.

THE COURT: The record will reflect that he has

3 identified the defendant.

4 5 6 7 8

Q. A.

I believe you said you took these fingerprints-Yes, sir; I did.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

21 22

24 25

Q. --of Mr. Willingham today? I'll show you what's been admitted as state's Exhibit No. 61; and I'll ask you to identify this document, if you can.

9 A. This is what's called a -- commonly called a Pen

10 Packet. This particular one is from the Oklahoma Department

11 of Corrections.

Q.

Have you had an op -- well, first of all, let me ask

you: Does that penitentiary packet contain fingerprints?

A. Yes; it does.

Q. And does that packet purport to address any particular individual?

A. Q.

Yes, sir; Todd Willingham.

All right. Have you had an opportunity to compare

19 the fingerprints which.you obtained from Mr. Willingham with

20 those contained in that Penitentiary Packet--

A. Q.

Yes; I have.

--State's Exhibit 62. Do they -- those prints belong

23 to one and the same person?

A.

In my opinion, they are one and the same person.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I would offer State's

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th Distr ct Court

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-.----~~.

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-)

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A.

I'm a licensed professional counselor, private

Exhibit 62 into evidence, at this time, and ask that it be

admitted.

3

MR. MARTIN: No objection.

4

THE COURT: It's admitted.

5

(State's Exhibit No. 62, fingerprint comparison, was offered and admitted into evidence without objection.)

6

7

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

8

MR. MARTIN: No questions.

9

THE COURT: You may step down.

10

Call your next witness.

11

MR. JACKSON: The State calls Tim Gregory.

12

THE COURT: Come forward, please, sir.

13

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn.)

14

THE COURT: Take your seat, please, sir.

15 You may proceed.

16 TIM GREGORY

17 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

18 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

19 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

20 DIRECT EXAMIN~TION

21 BY MR. GREGORY:

22

Q.

Would you state your name for the record, please?

23

A.

Tim Gregory.

24

Q.

Mr. Gregory, how are you employed?

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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practice.

,~~~ ')

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Q.

Where are you from, Mr. Gregory?

3

A.

From Houston, Texas.

4

Q.

Can you give us a synopsis of your background,

5 experience and education with regard to the kind of work you

6 do?

7

A.

Okay. 1986, I began a -- a Master's Program in

8 marriage and family counseling. During that time, I worked in

9 three psychiatric hospitals, and working with adolescents. I

10 graduated July of '89, and began private practice; and that's

11 what I'm doing now.

12

Q.

When you say "private practice," what does that,

13 basically, consist of?

14

A.

Working with marriage and family issues. Working

15 with Child Protective Services. Working with the ~busive-type

16 of families.

17

Q.

In that

in that field of expertise, do you

18 normally deal with issues of the abnormal psychology?

19

A.

Yes; I do.

20

Q.

As a counselor who deals on a regular basis in

21 abnormal psychology, are you familiar with the term sociopath?

22

A.

Yes; I am.

23

Q.

Can you tell us some of the manifestations or some of

24 the outward symptoms of soc -- sociopathic behavior?

A.

Sociopaths -- one key factor with a sociopath, it's

25

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') an individual that doesn't have a conscience, a sense of

respect for others, property, other life. They, many times,

are very conning. Can be very good con artists. They can

give you a mask of a very nice person, but they have a dark

side that usually shows a history of violence, of substance

abuse, of problems with school. Many times they're dropouts.

Long criminal history, stealing, theft, lying. Sociopathic

lying -- lying would be -- many times they lie and don't

realize they're lying; they do it so quickly and so good.

Q. Is this many times associated with criminal conduct?

A. Very much.

Q. Insofar as ability of a person of this type to be

rehabilitated, what -- what are, generally, the chances of

rehabilitation when we're speaking of a sociopathic person?

A. There is, I would say, very, very low. It is -- I

would say, with this type of profile, that I have not known

one to be rehabilitated.

Q. All right. Let me ask -- let me ask you to assume a

set of facts--

A. Okay.

Q. --in a hypothetical situation. That -- well, let me

back up and just ask you to assume these

these -- these

. '\.

..

facts. Assume with me a situation where we have an individual

who has exhibited antisocial behavior as a juvenile, through

paint sniffing and property crimes. Assume with me a person

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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who has manipulated younger children to assist him in criminal

activities. Assume with me that these activities continued

3 into adulthood and he continued to -- as he continued to

4 participate in criminal activity, such as theft, substance

5 abuse and assaultive conduct. Assume with me that his

6 relationship with women is marked with violence and abuse.

75

7 Also assume with me that he has assaulted a girlfriend or wife

8 when he found out she was pregnant, in an attempt to cause a

9 miscarriage of a child. Assume with me that he has made

10

11

threats of death to others and continued to engage in

antisocial behavior at a later time in his life: that

12 he has engaged in violent acts against animals, including

13 beating a dog to death. And, although he's been given

14

opportunities to rehabilitate himself on numerous occasions,

15 he has not done so. Also assume with me that he has an

in

that

16 obsession with death and destruction. Do you have an opinion

17 as to what type of individual we would be speaking of?

18 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, at this time we would

19 object to that question. This witness has not been qualified

20 as an expert to give an expert opinion; and we'd like to take

21 him on Voir Dire.

22

23

24

25

THE COURT: All right, ~ir.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MR. DUNN:

Q.

Mr. Gregory, I believe you said that you had had

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

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Protectice Services for three different counties here in

family and marriage practice and worked in clinical

2

situations. Your actual academic consists of a Master's

3 Degree; is that right?

4

A.

That's correct; Master's in marriage and family

5 counseling.

6

Q.

And have you gotten any minor in any other type of

7 science or any other type of behavior studies?

8

A.

No, I don't; that's part of my training, is

9 psychological issues, abnormal psychology.

10

Q.

Mr. Gregory, this is actually, to my knowledge, the

11 second criminal case that you have been a witness for the

12 State's Attorney's Office: is that right?

13

A.

That's correct.

14

Q.

Those experiences have only been through the District

15 Attorney's Office here in Navarro County; is that right?

16

A.

That is -- that is not correct.

17

Q.

You said there was just two cases.

18

A.

Just two cases here in Navarro County.

19

Q.

All right.

20

A.

That's correct.

21

Q.

Have you testified for other District Attorney's

22 Offices or any other situations in court?

23

A.

Yes; I have. As I said earlie~, I worked with Child

24

25 Texas. And I have had to testify in competence for a mother.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

76

3

1 It was a custody case. That was -- that was one that I can

2 remember.

Q.

Mr. Gregory, have you ever written any treatise or

5

6

7

8

9

11

12

13

14

4 any papers on sociopathic behavior?

A.

In college, I did.

Q.

No postgraduate work?

A.

No.

Q.

Do you belong any -- to any--

A.

Excuse me; postgraduate, meaning a Master's level, is

10 what I was speaking of.

Q.

After you have finished any formal education--

15

16

A.

No; I haven't.

Q.

--written any articles for magazines?

A.

Yes, I have.

Q.

And were they involving sociopathic behavior?

A.

Yes; I have read many articles related to

17 sociopathic, psychopathic.

Q.

My question to, Tim, was, have you written any?

18

19

20

A.

No; I have not written any.

Q.

There are none, no publications that you've

21 collaborated on or been a part of involving sociopathic

22 behavior?

A.

That

that is correct.

23

24

MR. DUNN: We would pass the witness at this

25 time, Your Honor, and renew our objection. He has not been

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

j

6

78

1 2

Q. Mr. Gregory, in spite of that interruption, I -- I

qualified for such an opinion on a hypothetical basi$ as an expert.

3 MR. JACKSON: On the contrClry, Your Honor, this

4 witness is qualified as a -- as a graduate level psychologist

5 family counselor. He deals with the issues of abnormal

6 behavior on a regular basis. His practice consists of

7 treating persons with abnormal behavior. It's his profession;

8 and we believe that he's qualified. The fact that he has not

9 testified in court very many times has very little

10 significance. I'm sure that if the reverse were true, Mr.

11 Dunn would object because he testified all the time, so--

THE COURT: I overrule the objection. Proceed.

DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED

12 13 14 15

BY MR. JACKSON:

16 assume you still have in mind the hypothetical situation that

17 I posed to you?

18 19 20 21

A.

Yes; I do.

Q. In your opinion, what type of individual would that hypothetical describe?

A.

That hypothetical would describe, as we've been

22 talking about, a sociopath, a person with no conscious, no

23 regard for human life; just a very destructive personality.

24

'In your opinion, would such a person have any

Q.

25 substantial chance of rehabilitation?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

6

7

1

2

3

In my opinion, there is

there is not much chance

of any type of rehabilitation at all.

Q.

In your opinion, would such a person be a continuing

4 threat to society?

5

6

A.

Absolutely.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness. .'/

7 CROSS EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. DUNN:

9

Q.

Mr. Gregory, are you familiar with the effects of

10 paint sniffing on the brain?

11

A.

I'm -- I'm not an expert as to the physiological

12 effect of paint sniffing.

13

14

15

16

Q.

What are the effects, that you know of, from your own

experience?

A.

It gives the individual a high. It -- I'm sure there

is

I know there is some damage, such as with alcohol or any

17 other type of substance abuse.

18

Q.

Well, you told, as one of the characteristics of a

19 sociopath is that that person has a substance abuse problem.

20 What did you have in mind when you said that?

21

A.

Substance abuse, that is a common characteristic.

22 Their -- you can be a sociopath and not have a sUbstance abuse

23 problem. The kinds of it substance -- the typical substance

24

abuse I run against would be alcohol, pot, prescription drugs,

25 crack cocaine, acid, morphine.

Ede J. Swain, Official Cour~ Reportet, l3th District Court

7

1

case?

Q.

That, Mr. Gregory, is, basically, in your family

2

practice; is that right?

3

A.

That's in the -- working with Child Protective

4 Services and those families and in private practice; that's

5 correct. And also with my association three years in

6 psychiatric hospitals in Fort Worth.

7

Q.

Mr. Gregory, you've testified for John Jackson in one

8 other case that involved a sex abuse case--

9

10

11

12

13

14

A.

That's cor--

Q.

--did you not?

A.

--that is correct.

Q.

And I defended that person that was accused in that

A.

That's correct.

Q.

And you are, in addition to that, a social friend of

16 Mr. Jackson's; is that right?

17

18

A.

A social friend, meaning--

Q.

Well, he -- you and he hunt geese on the Coast

19 together; is that right?

20

A.

I have -- yeah, I've invited a group of professionals

21 down to get away from the -- the professional world.

22

Q.

Mr. Gregory, have you ever examined the defendant,

23 Todd Willingham, in this case?

24

A.

He would have to be willing for me to do that, and

25 cooperative, and so I have not been able to do that.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

7

1

)

2

3

4

5

Q. Is the answer, "no"?
A. The answer is no.
Q. And have you ever talked to any of his family members
or any other persons associated with him in any way?
A. Yes. In any way, meaning indirectly through all the 6 statements that they have made and through the records that I

7 was given.

8

: .;':

Q.

That was my next question. Mr. Gregory, you have

9 been supplied by the District Attorney with certain items of

10 statements, evidence, police reports, and other things that

11 Mr. Jackson supplied you with; is that right?

12

13

14

A.

Yesi that's correct.

Q.

Weren't those items shockingly close to the elements

of the hypothetical that Mr. Jackson has presented to you here

15 in court?

16

17

A.

There is -- there's some definite similarities.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

18 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION

19 BY l>1R. JACKSON:

20

Q.

Mr. Gregory, I'll ask you to take a look at some

21 photographs--

22

23

A.

All right.

Q.

~-some of which have been admitted into evidence.

24 I'd like to -- I'll ask you to look at what's been marked

25 State's Exhibit 21 and 22, also State's Exhibit 60. And I'll

Ede J. Swain, Official cour t, Reporter t 13th Distric::.t Court

81

7

18

20

1

Q.

With regard to State's Exhibit No. 21, what would

82

ask you to examine those photographs for me, if you can. Have

2

you had an opportunity to examine these photographs?

22 silhouettes of -- it's hard to describe what these individuals

3

A.

Yes; just a few minutes ago.

4

Q.

With regard to these photographs, would a person who

5 exhibited this type of art on a regular basis -- do you have

6 an opinion as to what type of motivation a person would have

7 to exhibit this type art?

8

A.

The only thing I can say is really what the art

9

depicts and what the focus is. The focus--

10

Q.

What is that, sir?

11

A.

This one?

12

Q.

Yes, sir.

13

A.

This one is a picture of a -- of a skull, with a fist

14 being punched through the skull. It's an Iron Maiden poster

15 depicting violence, death.

16

Q.

I believe that's State's Exhibit 60; is that correct?

17

A.

That's correct.

Q.

I hand you State's Exhibit 22; and I'll ask you to

19 explain that photograph now.

A.

This is another poster that depicts an individual

21 that is a skeleton with a -- with a sword. It shows

23 are doing, but it's a -- definitely, it depicts violence and

25

24 d!!ath.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

7

1

2

that be in that picture there, sir?

A.

It's more pictures depicting violence, death.

3 There's a hooded skull, with wings and a hatchet, a cobra.

4 And all of these are in fire, depicting -- it reminds me of

5 something like hell. And there's a picture -- a Led Zeppelin

6 picture of a falling -- a falling angel. And those -- those

7

types of pictures, usually -- I see there's a association many

8 times with cultive-type of activities. A focus on death,

8

J

9 dying. Many times individuals that have a lot of this type of

10 art have interest in a satanic-type of activities or

11 interests.

12

13

14

Q.

Mr. Gregory, Mr. Dunn has eluded to some personal

relationship between you and me. Does the fact that we're

friends and I visit -- visit from time to time, does that have

15 any impact on your professional opinion in this case?

16

A.

Absolutely no impact whatsoever. I base my opinions

17 based upon the records that I have read and on that basis

18 only.

19

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

20 RE-CROSS EXAMINATION

21 BY MR. DUNN:

22

Q.

Mr. Gregory, are you familiar with the rock group Led

23 Zeppelin?

24

25

A.

Yes; I am.

Q.

Is not one of those a Led Zeppelin poster?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

8

·· . .1!jJlIi~:_fi!.lL

.. ._-., ~'\'. "'.

8 a 24-year-old man that has a family, does the putting of those

1

correct.

A.

One of those is a Led Zeppelin poster. That's

. .

2

3

4

5

6

7

Q.

That are commonly sold in music stores and/or other--

A.

That's correct.

Q.

--video places?

A.

Yes, sir.

Q.

Doctor, let me ask you: If we have, hypothetically,

9 posters on a wall in the home indicate some kind of juvenile

10 or -- or adolescent behavior?

A.

That would be consistent with some adolescence.

11

12

Q.

Doctor, I assume you are some years older than 24,

13 but probably not a whole lot, from my observation. That is

14 not -- when you were 24, you didn't put rock star posters on

15 your wall; did you?

A.

No; I didn't.

16

17

Q.

Is that type behavior indicative of anything other

18 than immaturity or adolescence or some other type of thing

19 that -- that might be contrary to what your allegations of

20 devil worshipping are?

A.

Which type of behavior?

21

22

Q.

Well, the posters, Led Zeppelin, the rock star

23 posters on the wall.

A.

Can it be indicative of another type of individual?

24

25

Q.

Or maybe adolescent behavior or immaturity?

84

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

'8

)

1 2 3

A.

Yes: they can be.

MR. DUNN: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

FURTHER RE~DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. JACKSON:

5

Q.

Has anything Mr. Dunn said caused you to change your

6 opinion about a person -- a person's ability to be

7 rehabilitated in circumstances I have described?

8 9

A. Q.

None whatsoever.

Does any question he's asked you have any effect on

10 your opinion regarding whether a person would continue to be

11 dangerous?

12

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

A. Q. A.

The person that you described?

Yes, sir.

No--

A.

MR. JACKSON: Pass--

--no doubt.

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness. MR. DUNN: No more questions. THE COURT: You may step down.

Do you all need this witness further?

MR. JACKSON: No; he may be excused.

THE COURT: You're excused. You may leave when

23 you get ready.

24 25

MR. JACKSON: May we approacb the bench? THE COURT: Yes, sir.

85

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

8

,~..;.... )

;: ..

16

17

18

19

1

2

(The following bench conference was made of record outside the hearing of the

jury: )

3

MR. JACKSON: I have a certified copy of Judgment

4 and Sentence in another County case. I think it's a -- it's a

5 self-proven document. If -- if you need a witness to prove it

6 up, I'll be happy to call one, but--

7

MR. t.fARTIN: What is it?

8

MR. JACKSON: It's just--

9

MR. DUNN: (undecipherable) person down here.

10

THE COURT: I'll testify that that's my

11 signature.

12

MR. JACKSON: Ask the Court to take judicial

13 notice?

14

MR. MARTIN: Uh-huh. Whatever you all do is

15 fine.

MR. DUNN: I didn't represent him; did I?

MR. MARTIN: No; Bill Smith.

MR. JACKSON: Well--

MR. DUNN: John, we're not in a position to

20 (undecipherable). This CYA position--

21

22

23

MR. JACKSON: Oh, I understand.

MR. DUNN: --in this situation is so important.

MR. MARTIN: Well, can't -- can't the Court take

24 judicial notice of its own records?

25

THE COURT: I -- I don't know about that.

Ede J. swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

8

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

Pat.

MR. JACKSON: Let me just call Pat. I'll call

MR. DUNN: On the certification?

MR. JACKSON: Well, Pat's willing.

THE COURT: Okay.

(The following was within the hearing of all: )

MR. JACKSON: I call Pat Batchelor.

(State's Exhibit No.3 was marked for identification.)

THE COURT: Take your seat, please.

PATRICK C. BATCHELOR

the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

22 Texas.

18

19

20

21

23

24

25

15 examined and testified as follows, to wit:

t.

16 DIRECT EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. JACKSON:

Q.

Would you state your name for the record, please?

A.

Patrick C. Batchelor.

Q.

Can you tell us how you are employed?

A.

I'm the Criminal District Attorney of Navarro County,

Q.

How long have you been employed in that capacity?

A.

Since January 1, 1975.

Q.

I'll show you·what's been marked State's Exhibit No.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

8

, .. .,....-' ...•

1

A.

Basically, the reason that we recommended probation

63. Can you identify this document, please?

2

A.

Yes; I can.

3

Q.

Can you tell us what that is?

4

A.

It's a Judgment of conviction in Cause No.

5 91-00-24240-CR in the 13th JUdicial District Court of this

6 county, styled The State of Texas vs Cameron Todd Willingham.

7

Q.

What's the offense alleged in that Judgment?

8

A.

Burglary of a motor vehicle.

9

Q.

And what, in effect, does that document -- what --

10 what is that document and what does it mean, Mr. Batchelor?

11

A.

It means that Cameron Todd Willingham, the defendant

12 in this particular proceeding, was convicted on September the

13 30th, 1991, of that felony offense and was placed on a

14

probation for a period of nine years.

15

Q. Is that the same Cameron Todd Willingham present in

16 the courtroom today?

17

A.

Yes; it is.

18

Q.

With regard to the probation, can you tell us why the

19 State would recommend probation in a case such as this?

20

21 in this case was that our records indicated, after we ran Mr.

22 Willingham's record on the NCIC national crime computer and

23 TCIC national crime computer, it shows that he had never

24 before been convicted of a felony in this state or any other

25 state. And Mr. Willingham was placed on the stand during the

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

88

8

1

2

3

4

proceeding and testified, at the insistence of his attorney,

Bill Smith, that he had never before been convicted of a

felony in this state or any other state.

Q.

Have you found, since that time, that the records of

5 the NCIC, the Crime Information Center, were incorrect?

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

A. Yes; we have.
Q. Have you found that he had an e':ttensive criminal
history--
A. Yes.
Q. --in the state of Oklahoma?
A. Yes; we did.
Q. Based on your knowledge of Mr. Willingham, his 89

'\

13 background and his behavior in this courtroom, especially with

14

regard to the testimony in that case, do you have an opinion

15 as to his reputation in this community for both, truth and

16 veracity and -- excusse me; let me back up -- for being a

17 peaceful and law-abiding citizen?

18

19

20

21

22

A.

Yes. His reputation is bad.

MR. JACKSON: All right. Pass the witness.

MR. DUNN: No questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may step down.

MR. JACKSON: I offer this into evidence and ask

23 that it be admitted at this time.

24

25

MR. DUNN: We have no objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

I .8

I~

I ( "')

1

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

MR. JACKSON: The State calls James Grigson.

MR. MARTIN: Who did you say, John?

MR. JACKSON: James Grigson.

THE COURT: Come forward, please, sir.

(Prospective witness was duly-sworn. )
THE COURT: Take your seat, please, sir.
DR. GRIGSON: Thank you.
MR. JACKSON: May I proceed?
THE COURT: You may proceed. 10 JAMES GRIGSON

11 was called as a witness by the State; and being sworn to tell

12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, was

13

14

examined and testified as follows, to wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. JACKSON:

16

17

18

19

20

Q. Would you state your name for the record, please,
sir? \
A. James P. Grigson.
Q. And, Dr. Grigson, can you tell us what you do?
A. I'm a medical doctor. I specialize in psychiatry. 21 I'm self-employed.

22

23

Q.

Can you give us an idea of your experience and

25

education and

and background insofar as your specialty is

90

24 concerned?

A.

Yes, sir. I obtained my MD Degree from Southwestern

\,

'.

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

1 Medical School branch of the University of Texas, located in

2 Dallas. I then spent one year in a rotating internship at

3 Baylor Medical Center. At the end of that time I decided to

4 specialize in psychiatry. I spent the next 18 months at

5 Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital in Dallas. Then I spent the

6 next 18 months at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas. I was

7 Chief Psychiatry Resident during my third year of residency

8 training. I then went into full-time teaching in the

9

9 Department of Psychiatry at the medical school. I taught

10 full-time for four and a half years. During that period of

11 time, I was consultant to the Terrell State Hospital system

12 for two years. I was consultant to Texas Women's University

Health Center for two years. I was consultant to the Dallas

13

County Health Department for three years. I've been out in

14

15 private practice now for a little over 20 years. I've

16 continued to teach throughout that period of time; however, it

has been on a limited basis. I am certified by the American

17

18 Board of Neurology and Psychiatry. My license to practice

19 medicine in the State of Texas is on file in Dallas County.

What does your practice, basically, consist of at

20

Q.

21 this time, Doctor?

I'm 98-99 percent in doing forensic or legal

22

A.

23 psychiatry.

Do you have an opportunity to -- I'm sure you -- let

24

Q.

25 me back up a little bit. Do you do this on a regular basis,

91

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

.~~------~-------~--.-.-)

9

.-" )

1

Q.

With regard to persons who fit into this category,

92

is what I'm trying to say.

2

A.

Five days a week and sometimes over the weekends, so

3 it's very regular.

4

Q.

In the course of your practice, do you have occasion

5to come in contact with persons of abnormal psychology on a

6 regular basis?

7

A.

Every day; yes, sir.

8

Q.

All right. We've heard the term in this courtroom

9 "sociopath" and socio -- and also "sociopathic behavior." Can

10 you describe what that means?

11

A.

Yes, sir. A sociopath is a slang term for antisocial

12 personality disorder. It has previously been called a

13

psychopath, a sociopath. But it means an individual that does

14

not have a conscience. Their only interest is in their own

15 self-gratification and pleasure. They're repeatedly breaking

16 the rules. They con, manipulate, use people. They have

17 disregard for other people's property. And then the more

18 severe form are those individuals that have disregard for

19 other human beings.

20

Q.

Is that type of behavior often manifested by persons

21 repeatedly committing crime?

22

A.

Yes, sir; it is. That's typical, classical.

23

24 have you found that there is any sUbstantial hope of

25 rehabilitation of this type of individual?

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

9

"e-,.- )

" , "

' ,

"")

1

you've described. Assume with me a situation where we have an

93

A.

After that individual has gotten past their late

2

adolescence or into young adulthood, if they have been

3 involved in any type of violent behavior, there's nothing

4 that's going to change that. If they have not been involved

5 in violent-type behavior, then maybe 95 percent of them at age

6 30 will go ahead and start conforming to the law. But if

7 there is violence involved in their antisocial behavior, then

8 there is no form of medication or no form of rehabilitation

9 that's going to change or modify their behavior.

10

Q.

Dr. Grigson, let me pose a hypothetical situation for

11 you; and I'll ask you to listen to this and that; and at the

12 end I'll ask you a question about whether a person who

13

exhibits these characteristics would fall into the category

14

15 'individual who has exhibited antisocial behavior as a

16 juvenile, through paint sniffing and property crimes. He's a

17 person who's manipulated younger children to assist him in

18 criminal activities. As an adult, he's continued to

19 participate in criminal activity, such as theft, substance

20 abuse and assaultive-conduct. His relationship with women is

21 marked with violence and abuse. He -- assume with me that he

22 assaulted his wife or girlfriend when she found out she was

23 pregnant, in an attempt to cause or create a miscarriage of

24 the child. He has made threats of death to others and

25 continued to engage in antisocial behavior through his young

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

9

1

adulthood. He has engaged in violent acts against animals,

including beating a dog to death and running over the dog with

3 a car. He has not attempted to rehabilitate himself, although

4 he's been given numerous opportunities. And he, apparently,

5 has an obsession with death and destruction. Doctor, do you

6 have an opinion as to what type of individual this

7 hypothetical describes?

8

A.

Well, you're describing the typical extremely severe

9 sociopath.

10

Q.

Do you have an opinion as to whether an individual

11 who fits this hypothetical could be rehabilitated to any

12 marked extent?

-,-;;.;, ....

13

A.

No. An individual that's been involved in the type

14

of behavior that you're describing, I mean, we don't have any

15 type of medical treatment. There's no pill; there's nothing

16 that I know of, in the way of rehabilitation-type of thing,

17 .that works with that type of individual.

18

Q.

The person such as I've described in the

19 hypothetical, in your opinion, would such a person be a

20 continuing threat to society?

21

A.

Oh, absolutely; certainly.

22

MR. JACKSON: Pass the witness.

23

CROSS EXAMINATION

,.' .... ,.

24

BY MR. DUNN:

Q.

Doctor, these hypotheticals assume that the things

25

Ede J. Swain, Official Court Reporter, 13th District Court

94