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4/2/2018 Welding on an 18" diameter 4140 shaft

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Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding on an 18" diameter 4140 shaft

By mauer03 Date 11-27-2007 16:21

We have an 18" diameter shaft of 4140 that has had grooves worn into it and we plan on machining the grooves down to 0.030"
below the original surface, fill the newly machined grooves up with weld material, then machine the surface back down to original
dimensions. What special precautions should be taken when doing this? I've read that when welding 4140 you should preheat it to
at least 400 F, then hold it there while welding and then stress relieve it immediately after welding. Do I need to do this if we are just
resurfacing the shaft as opposed to actually joining two parts together? What type of welding rod/method should we use to fill the
grooves in?
The drawing of the shaft specifies SAE 4140 Q&T 300 Hb MIN.

By mauer03 Date 11-27-2007 16:24

I forgot to specify the application. This shaft is the main shaft used in a car shredder. It is powered by a 6000 HP electric motor.

By 803056 Date 11-27-2007 17:45 Edited 11-27-2007 17:56

You will be searching the web for a new shaft after shredding the first few cars if you fail to:
1) preheat
2) use the proper filler metal, and
3) skip the PWHT.
The shaft material is easily hardened, thus if the HAZ is in the area subjected to impact or cyclic loads you can expect the HAZ to
have insufficient ductility and toughness to absorb the impact loads as the hammers smash the car into bits and pieces. If the area
repaired within the portion of the shaft between the hammers and the bearings, I would expect to see the failure just beyond the toe
of the weld. If the area repaired is beyond the bearings and the grooves were the result of abrasion from the seals, thus not subject
to loading, the consequences may be insignificant. However, proper preheating is necessary to minimize the potential for delayed
hydrogen cracks. Proper selection of the welding process, the type of electrode selected, and proper cleaning will affect the amount
of diffusible hydrogen introduced into the weld puddle and the potential for delayed hydrogen cracking (even if there is no external
load present.
Best regards - Al

By MDG Custom Weld Date 11-27-2007 20:35

We do a lot of weld repair/ build up on tool and die steel sections, 4140 being very common. Al has it right, if you don't preheat
properly, weld with correct filler, and post weld heat will break. Even if you are just welding a small section, pre/ post heat is
critical. With a section of that size (18"dia, how long? don't know), I would expect the preheat time would be 8-10 hours in a 450F
oven, and welding time would only be an hour or two.
If you take short cuts, your minor grooves will turn out to be major repairs when the shaft breaks.
Good luck,

By mauer03 Date 11-27-2007 21:14

I guess what I really need is the specifics on time/temperatures/procedures/materials.
Since the shaft is so large (and still assembled to the hammers) I'm pretty sure we aren't going to put this thing in a furnace to
preheat/heat-treat it. So how much of the shaft has to be preheated? What temp should it be preheated to? What welding process
and what electrode should we use? What is the proper way to clean it? Is there a good place on the web to find this kind of

By DaveBoyer Date 11-28-2007 05:10

If these grooves are where a seal rides, You may be able to use a "shaft saver" such as a "CR Speedy Sleve" I don't know if they
make them that big, but they are a stainless steel sleve that provides a smooth surface for a seal to ride on. If doing a PROPER weld
job with all the pre & post heating is impractical, and the grooves are were a bearing race goes, I would consider machining a wider
and deeper groove and making a 2 piece bushing to restore the original diameter. There are spray welding methods used for the job
You are doing. Check with Eutectic-Castolin or Colmonoy [there are others too] for the details, but You still need to do the pre and
post heat treatments due to the material.

By webbcity Date 11-28-2007 06:23

maurer03 , like al says if you weld you might be looking for a new one and as dave says you can repair those groves they even make
epoxies to do that , check with your bearing supplier there is many types available that would work . if you build it up with weld or 1/2

250 in/min. good luck .. let us know what you do . cored.and post-heat requirements can be calculated from the wall thickness.therefore 9 hours for an 18" dia shaft) to at least 400 F.045 wire (he said this would actually be a spray).aws.. To many threads on aluminun latly. or the loading is low enough at the repair areas. There is a new sheriff in town over there though and he wants to try to do it right this time. pwht. Our welder said the Arg shielding wouldn't work because of the wind so we would need to use the Lincore 33. That rules out the bushing idea. i don't know where you are but there are people who travel thruout the world that do these repairs many on ships shafts larger and more complex than yours . And another thing? I want to see this 6000 hp motor. I was already questioning the aluminum shaft in a car crusher anyway. check with factory .. these grooves are only about 0. we have had to spray some and use our portable crankshaft grinder to machine in the field so not to completely disassemble . my bad.4/2/2018 Welding on an 18" diameter 4140 shaft spray you will have to machine to tolerences needed can you pull off the flywheels and drives without breaking them ? they if available probably cost more than the shaft .030" deep. We'll do our best to maintain interpass temperature and then wrap it and let it slow cool. By mooseye Date 11-28-2007 17:22 Edited 11-28-2007 17:25 I hate to tell you but if it has been repaired with 7018 and held up for even 1 minute. but as everyone agrees it is a risky operation.. keep it in mind for others. 0. and the softer interior of the shaft may arest the cracking that will form in the HAZ IF the shaft is over built by a great enough margin.unless you find me on here asking how to weld an 18" shaft back together! Lets hope not. And who ever said anything about aluminum??? By mooseye Date 11-28-2007 18:11 Right. welding wire") if we couldn't use Lincore BUG with 95/5 Ox/Arg @ 27V. self-shielded. hence me asking ya'll about it! We are going to do the machining over the weekend and will hopefully do the welding monday/tuesday so I'll try to get some feedback on here next week. I don't think it would stand up to the abuse. Are You machining this part in place? The bushing requires that a wider and deeper grove be machined to acomadate the bushing.Technical Discussions https://app. Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding on an 18" diameter 4140 shaft . Lincoln guy suggested using a wire machine with Lincore 33 ("hardfacing. not the diameter..without any of the preheat. the pre.. By 803056 Date 11-28-2007 18:36 Wow 2/2 . While this may not be a good way for this job. I looked at the Colmonoy and Eutectic Castolin website and they definitely looked promising but these guys (the maintenance guys I'm helping) have apparently done this (resurfacing with a 7018 stick) before. Best regards . etc and the shaft stood up to the abuse. 4140 does not harden deeply.Al By DaveBoyer Date 11-29-2007 05:33 You MAY get away with improper pre & post heat treatment due to the size of the shaft. it is not aluminum. I saw a 300 horse once and it was half the size of a small house. We'll dye-pen it before and willie By mauer03 Date 11-28-2007 16:39 Well after talking with a Lincoln Electric Applications Engineer and a guy who has a PhD in Metallurgy we are going to preheat it for as long as we can stand (suggested 1 hour per 1" of thickness. I have no idea when the shaft will go back in service though so I won't be able to give you any feedback regarding whether or not it survives. Also. By bozaktwo1 Date 11-28-2007 17:54 Is this shaft a solid round shape? Or is it a tube? If it's a tube. you had me going for a while on that one.