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What Really Happened at Gethsemane…
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Twenty-Four Hours That Changed the World Forever: An Easter Discussion
What Really Happened at Gethsemane?
By Jerome Murphy-O’Connor Talkback Add Your Comment Sidebar: Jesus at Gethsemane: Two Versions Sidebar: Which Came First—Matthew or Mark? Sidebar: The Sources of Inspiration
The scene has stimulated the imagination of great painters. The light of a full moon accentuates the shadows in a garden at the foot of the Mount of Olives. A lonely figure prays in anguish. Deep in careless sleep, his companions ignore his agony. The swords of the approaching soldiers appear on the horizon. The tension is palpable. Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane is one of the most soul-wrenching episodes in the Gospels: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Yet, not as I will but as you (will)” (Matthew 26:39). If the Transfiguration—the moment when Jesus is mystically transformed in the presence of Moses and Elijah—presents Jesus at his highest, here we see him at his lowest. The radiant Lord who stood erect on a mountain peak now struggles for light in the desolation of night. The disciples who were so attentive at the Transfiguration and begged to prolong the golden moment, do not want to hear or see what is happening to Jesus here. These contrasting images bear reflection. We like to bask in the glory of the superhuman Jesus of the Transfiguration.a He is a savior to be proud of. We do not want to deal with a savior consumed by loneliness, desperate fear and uncertainty. These traits are far too human. Nonetheless, this is the real Jesus. Jesus’ struggle in Gethsemane is recounted in all three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 26:36–46; Mark 14:32–42; and Luke 22:39–46).b There are striking differences, however, which I want to explore here. As we shall see, one gospel actually contains two accounts of Jesus’ agony. What can we say of these varying accounts? Can we determine which was the most
What Really Happened at Gethsemane…
original and who copied from whom? Can we reconstruct how the story developed? Luke’s account is much shorter than Mark’s or Matthew’s (see the sidebars to this article). Mark and Matthew depict Jesus praying three times; Luke has only one prayer. The dominant scholarly hypothesis concerning the relationship between Matthew, Mark and Luke claims that when an episode is narrated by all three gospels, Mark, the earliest gospel, is the source; an episode found only in Matthew and Luke, on the other hand, goes back to a hypothetical source scholars call Q.c Applying this two-source theory to the episode in Gethsemane, we find that Luke, with such a short account, must have severely abbreviated Mark. No other suggestion is seriously considered by scholars.1 Such radical surgery on the part of an evangelist would be most unusual, however. He might add or change, but not shorten so drastically. This suggests that the widely accepted two-source theory is not an appropriate framework in which to understand the Gethsemane episode. A very different solution becomes apparent if Mark and Matthew are first analyzed closely. To help the reader do this, we have printed the text of Mark and Matthew side by side (see the first sidebar to this article). In the second sidebar to this article we analyze a number of the most significant differences.2
The cumulative effect of the variations is to make it appear extremely likely that Matthew copied Mark’s account, clarifying it and tidying it up with minor additions and omissions. Hence, if we are to discover what really happened in Gethsemane, we must focus on Mark. Mark’s account introduces us to doublets. Although to theatergoers the word doublet may evoke a tight-fitting jacket worn by men in 15th- and 16th-century Europe, to gospel scholars the term is much more mundane; it simply refers to a repeated element. There are two types of doublets: verbal doublets, a saying or phrase that is repeated in a single gospel; and structural doublets, repeated elements that fulfill the same role in the framework or movement of the narrative. Mark’s account of Jesus in Gethsemane contains a whole series of structural doublets: • The place to which Jesus and his disciples come appears twice: the Mount of Olives (14:26) and Gethsemane (14:32a). • Twice Jesus gives an order to his disciples: “Sit here while I pray” (14:32b), and “Remain here and keep watching” (14:34b). • The subjective state of Jesus is mentioned twice, first in indirect speech, “He began to be greatly distraught and troubled” (14:33a), and then in direct speech, “My soul is very sorrowful unto death” (14:34a). • Similarly, the prayer of Jesus appears twice, again, first in indirect speech, “He was praying that if it is possible, the hour might pass from him” (14:35), and then in direct speech, “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you” (14:35), etc. This prayer is in fact a triplet, but note the vagueness of the third mention, “saying the same words” (14:39). • The return of Jesus to his sleeping disciples is twice mentioned in virtually the same words: “He comes and finds them sleeping” (14:37), and “Having come, he found them sleeping” (14:40). • Finally, the theme of handing over is evoked twice: “the Son of Man is given over into the hands of sinners” (14:41), and “the one who gives me over has come near” (14:42). Such a consistent series of structural doublets permits only one conclusion: Mark’s gospel combines two stories. Can they be reconstructed? A number of scholars have answered yes.3 At least one leading New Testament scholar, Raymond Brown, dismisses the whole
More importantly. First. Jesus separates himself from his disciples. Each of the sources combined in Mark is a complete story containing but one prayer of Jesus. is that the triple failure of the disciples to stay awake was intended to balance the triple denial by Peter (Mark 14:66–72). as stories are retold. is more developed than Source A. are not entirely off target. These give rise to obvious questions: Precisely where on the Mount of Olives. In Source B. too. “Watch and pray lest ye enter into trial” (14:38). this became two prayers. later stories tend to stress that first-generation disciples were present and involved and therefore were able to report accurately. Rather. although it was frustrated by the sleep of the disciples.6 Jesus’ movement away is not mentioned explicitly in Source B. Two aspects of Brown’s criticism. he prayed. and moves away (14:35a). as Brown suggests. or the reverse? Several hints suggest that Source A is older. which deflects attention from Jesus to the needs of the early Church. scholars have at times permitted idiosyncratic judgments to influence their reconstructions. the variety of proposed solutions betrays the futility of the enterprise. they needed to be reassured that those who told the story knew what they were talking about. saying the same word” (14:39). Thus. The need for Jesus to be observed is apparent in Source B. which entailed the insertion of “again” in 14:40 and “He comes the third time” in 14:41.org/…/easter-04. but he used their slumber for a little moral lesson. The editor’s respect for his source did not permit him to pretend that the disciples remained wide awake.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… effort. In fact. When combined. as Brown points out. which is quite a large area? And which disciples? Both of these questions are answered by Source B.5 Having identified Mark’s two sources. in Source A. had to rely on what they were told. on the other hand. which Mark increased to three by adding “And again having gone away. Source A appears to be earlier. The resident population of Jerusalem at that time has been bib-arch. Such a reconstruction is precisely what I propose (see the last sidebar to this article). They were poor Galileans who could not afford to lodge in a city crowded with wealthier pilgrims. therefore. Let us look more closely now at the contents of Source A. these successive attempts to account for the doublets indicate that scholars of different backgrounds have recognized a real problem that has escaped Brown.asp 3/27 . It is perfectly plausible that Jesus and his disciples should head for the Mount of Olives after an evening meal in Jerusalem. Source A. which locates the episode in “a plot of land called Gethsemane” (14:32a) and names the key disciples as “Peter and James and John” (14:33a). The implication is that a reconstruction that does follow the order of the doublets would be taken seriously. stories that focus on Jesus while leaving the disciples in the background are older than stories that emphasize the disciples’ presence.”4 In Brown’s view. The earliest stories were told by eyewitnesses who knew what they had seen. for example. On this basis. First. however. even by Brown. his departure has to be inferred from his return to the disciples in 14:37. none of the proposed reconstructions takes into consideration the order of the doublets. as a general rule. the next question is whether we can determine their relative antiquity. Jesus exhorts his disciples to “keep watching” (14:34b). mentions “the Mount of Olives” (14:26b) and “his disciples” (14:32b). One possibility. however. The lack of any content for the third prayer betrays that Mark was interested primarily in the number three. This appears to have happened in Mark. Is Source A older than Source B. however: “The theory smacks somewhat of the way modern scholars would work. although his reasoning can only be a matter of speculation. “Sit here while I pray” (14:32b). Source B. Second. He tells them. Consequently. The second generation of Christians. they often become more specific as ambiguities pointed out by the audience are clarified. The interlocking stories slide apart without difficulty. combining lines from two books propped up on either side of them.
” but the connotations of “amazement” in current English (entertained.16 After all.10 It was only 2 miles from the city (John 11:18). Gethsemane was already a well-established place of prayer.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… estimated at between 40. half-distracted state.18 They would have been perfectly visible in the full moon of Passover. Then. Jesus had to climb the Mount of Olives each day to reach the city and again on his return at night (Mark 11:11–12).” Jesus’ words in Mark 14:35b suggest he is not even sure that God can help him. Exegetes have struggled to find adequate words to bring out the force of the two Greek verbs used here. Jesus began to be filled with appalling dread. Jesus had been under direct threat since Caiaphas had decreed that “one man should die for the people” (John 11:50). Jesus “began to be deeply distraught and troubled” (14:33b).9 Space in the city.11 The site now marked by the Church of All Nations is in fact located at the easiest point to start climbing up the Mount of Olives.”14 The usual translation of adêmoneô is “to be distressed.” but the connotations of the verb established by usage go much further.org/…/easter-04. The path that Jesus and his disciples intended to follow is undoubtedly that marked by an ancient flight of rock-cut steps. Today three roads radiate upwards from that point and come together on the ridge that leads to Bethany. restless. Weighed down with apprehension. who lived in the village of Bethany (John 11:1–3). Exthambeô is often translated “amazed. because both religions believe the valley to be the place of the Last Judgment. The close relationship between Jesus and the family of Martha. One commentator has noted that the term “describes the confused. Mary and Lazarus. which may still be seen in the garden of the Russian church of Saint Mary Magdelene.”15 In short.8 During pilgrimage feasts. the population swelled to about 180. When the church historian and bishop Eusebius of Caesarea wrote his Onomasticon (an alphabetic list of biblical places with descriptions of their history and geography) at some point between 324 and 336. suggests that Jesus made his base with them when he came to Jerusalem. two huge tomb monuments (the so-called tombs of Absalom and Zechariah) marked catacombs cut into the cliff.17 Between it and Gethsemane. Something must have happened in Mark 14:33 to bring his awareness of his death to a different level. overwhelmed by the hidden fears surging over him. was at a premium. His questions mock their self-absorption. He became profoundly disturbed at the thought. On reaching the Mount of Olives.000. By Jesus’ time. 9:31.19 Does he pray? “If it is possible.”13 a dawning awareness that produces “shuddering horror. realizing that his death would be the saving event in God’s plan for humanity. He accepts his destiny while his weary disciples sleep.0007 and 60. The prayer is followed by silence. If the disciples were asleep. What provoked the shocking shift from the theoretical to the real—a shift that almost broke Jesus? The most probable answer lies in the setting.000. Muslim on the west and Jewish on the east. the sight of the tombs lining his route forced the thought of death from his head to his heart. therefore. but at night he went out and lodged on the Mount of Olives” (Luke 21:37). “It might be tonight!” Jesus manages to control himself sufficiently to tell his disciples to wait while he struggles for self-mastery in prayer. The traditional site of Gethsemane has much to recommend its authenticity. he collapses on the ground. which had never abandoned the city. on the basis of a tradition transmitted by the Christian community of Jerusalem. what is now the village of Silwan was a great graveyard. how did they know what was happening to Jesus?20 In bib-arch.asp 4/27 . 10:33–34). But why was the impact so great at this point? I am convinced that he had already come to terms with his death. It is a matter of “terrified surprise. Somehow Jesus finds the internal strength to pull himself together. Source A tells us. troubled. The only explanation of this paroxysm of instinctive revulsion is that Jesus had become aware that his death was imminent. Today both sides of the valley are lined with tombs. God has not answered. On the night of the Agony. Jesus had previously foreseen and predicted his death (Mark 8:31. which is produced by physical derangement or by mental distress…[T]he primary idea of the word will be loathing and discontent. ekthambeô and adêmoneô. The context here demands the element of shock that the verb carries in Mark 10:24 and 16:5–6. Jesus reached the foot of the Mount of Olives by the Kidron Valley (John 18:1). His is almost a cry of despair over the nearness of the “hour” of his destiny.12 just upslope from the Church of All Nations. amused) make it inappropriate. Jesus and his disciples were returning to Bethany on the eastern slope of the Mount of Olives: “And every day he was teaching in the Temple.
Father. one might suspect that Mark personally preferred Source B. They understood that mastery of the deep-rooted instinct of self-preservation would not come easily and presumed that Jesus felt the same way. who begs for release by death. addressing God with the utmost formality as “Abba.asp 5/27 . 12. This is a radical shift away from the mood of Source A. If Jesus was not the source. with no fears or frailties. They did not imagine Jesus as a superman. The individual suffering a private hell has been replaced by a familiar religious type. The disciples who composed Source A were honest with themselves. They did not flatter themselves about their courage in a crisis.22 Instead. either the just man of the Psalms. I want to die. Jesus.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… other words.” In Source B Jesus is sufficiently composed to make scriptural allusions. to Jonah 4:9. who suffers persecution yet is sustained by God.25 Jesus’ prayer in Source B (Mark 14:36) contains no hint of the anguished doubt so vivid in Source A (Mark 14:35). 4:15). Even if he had. perhaps. where did the information in Source A come from? It is difficult to imagine that it came from Jesus himself. in Source B Jesus speaks for himself: “My soul is very sorrowful unto death” (Mark 14:34a). In consequence.23 In fact. “I am so weighed down by sorrow. they probably would have talked of other matters. On the surface this appears to convey the same emotional state. my soul.21 As the followers of a crucified criminal.” replaces doubt with certitude: “All things are possible to you. Such concentration on the way believers should live has taken us a long way from the stark struggle of Source A. and there is no hint that he had any opportunity to speak to his disciples before he was put to death. Why then did he combine his two sources rather than choose between them? The simplest answer is that he was not willing to throw away a scrap of the tradition about Jesus. they knew that they were walking a dangerous path and must have reflected frequently on how they would react if threatened with death. The Jesus of Source B is calm and collected. The intensely human Jesus revealed by Source A—a leader on the verge of a nervous breakdown—proved to be more than some other Christians could accept. introducing scriptural allusions to stimulate the theological reflection of his disciples and offering them an example and advice for the living of their Christian lives.org/…/easter-04. Source B lacks the explicit statement that Jesus “became filled with terrified surprise and distressed from shock” (Mark 14:33b). or vice versa. The man in intense agony has become calm enough to quote Scripture. ancient readers (or listeners) would have recognized the allusions to Psalm 41:6. when combined. and why do you distress me?” and. Source bib-arch. Nothing remotely resembling this petition appears in Source A. “But not what I will but what you (will)” (Mark 14:36). Mark must have been aware of how different the two Gethsemane stories were. He was like them in all things except sin (Hebrews 2:17. They fully accepted his humanity. He was arrested immediately afterwards. It is the perfect submission to the will of God that is expected of all Christians. Human nature being what it is. but he also knew his audience and recognized that. they wrote a different version of what happened in Gethsemane. He could see no justification for preserving Source B at the expense of Source A. “Why are you very sorrowful. which has survived as Source B. then the only possibility is that certain disciples projected onto Jesus the emotions that they imagined they would experience if they suddenly realized their death was imminent.24 or the weary prophet. In Source B.”26 The final element in Jesus’ prayer in Source B is.
does not speak of a sweat of blood but of a sweat so profuse that it was like blood The cause of this sweat was Jesus’ “agony. which resembles Sources A and B individually to the extent that each has only one prayer of Jesus (see the last sidebar to this article). As we have noted. Some scholars argue that these elements were added a century or so after Luke’s gospel was composed. and I will glorify it again!’ The crowd standing by heard it and said that it had thundered.org/…/easter-04. Father. John usually does not repeat events that have been adequately described by the other evangelists. It would appear that Luke tried to be faithful to both sources.29 Luke mentions the drenching perspiration to underline the intense internal struggle that demanded every ounce of Jesus’ concentration and energy. in Mark 14:35 Jesus collapses. in Matthew 26:39 Jesus assumes the classic Jewish position of reverence. we are now in a position to appreciate Luke’s shorter narrative. is much less explicit. what could possibly happen to Jesus when a powerful heavenly figure was there to comfort and fortify him? Further evidence for Luke’s preference for the perspective of Source B is provided by Jesus’ posture as he prays. Luke’s version also contains two distinctive elements: Jesus’ bloodlike sweat (Luke 22:44). but to a first-century reader it would have evoked a struggle for victory. Having examined both of Mark’s sources. The connection of this passage with the Gethsemane episode in the other gospels is clear:32 “My soul is distressed” evokes Psalm 41:6.27 A sweat of blood is not physically impossible.” Luke.28 Luke.asp 6/27 . This is not the place to debate this highly technical problem.” a totally controlled posture that had become the standard position for Christian prayer when Luke wrote. but God relents to the extent of strengthening Jesus to drink the cup of suffering: “An angel from heaven appeared to him. John anticipates Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane: “Now is my soul distressed. By mentioning the angel first. but I am inclined to agree with Brown that on balance the evidence favors the view that they always belonged to the gospel.” To us this suggests intense suffering. ‘Father. for this purpose I have come to this hour. but without combining them as Mark did.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… A would be interpreted in the light of Source B. as opposed to the three prayers in the final versions of both Mark and Matthew. The culmination of this process is to be found in John’s version. has Jesus “drop to his knees.30 The angel in Luke’s version softens God’s silence in Source A and God’s refusal to answer Jesus’ prayer in Source B. glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from heaven. Others said. and what shall I say. Someone interested only in telling the story would have used the natural order of problem (the “agony”) followed by solution (the appearance of the angel). Luke. 12 in exactly the same way as bib-arch. Reading the accounts in the probable order of composition. for his part. ‘I have glorified it. Luke ensured that his readers would not take Jesus’ “agony” too seriously. with his refined sense of graphic artistry. but evokes them in a different context by means of a highly specific allusion. ‘An angel had spoken to him’” (John 12:27–29). And Luke betrays his preference for Source B by introducing the angel before mentioning the bloodlike sweat. simply referring to bloodlike sweat. Where Mark’s Source A presents a Jesus who is “deeply distraught and troubled. After all. however. The divine response in Luke is still negative. Luke’s text is an extraordinary combination of elements that reflect different parts of Source A and Source B of Mark (see the last sidebar to this article).31 That is the case here. we see Jesus’ acceptance of his fate becoming progressively more perfect. with his face to the ground. save me from this hour? No. and the angel (Luke 22:43). strengthening him” (Luke 22:43).
Where there is no close parallel. “Abba. he was falling on the earth and was praying “My Father. and he says to Peter. Indeed the spirit is willing. are you sleeping? Were you not strong enough to watch one hour? (38) Keep ye watching and praying lest ye enter into trial. Remain here and keep on watching. and will glorify it again” (John 12:28).asp 7/27 . but the flesh is weak. but the flesh is weak. saying the same word. Jesus at Gethsemane: Two Versions Sidebar to: What Really Happened at Gethsemane? Close scrutiny of Matthew’s and Mark’s accounts of Jesus at Gethsemane reveals numerous correspondences as well as some tell-tale differences. “So ye were not strong enough to watch one hour with me! (41) Keep ye watching and praying lest ye enter into trial. (41) And he comes the third time (44) And having left them. all things are possible to you. he prayed.” (40) And again having come. they went out to the Mount of Olives. again he found sleeping. for their eyes were very burdened. Take away this cup from me. passages that occur (sometimes word-for-word) in both gospels appear side-by-side. answer him. He refuses to utter the prayer attributed to him by Matthew. I pray there. we’ve inserted a line space.” (42) Again. “Simon. Yet. Jesus explicitly acknowledges that throughout his ministry the divine will has guided him to this moment. 32–42) (36) Then Jesus comes with them into (14:26) And having sung a hymn. According to Mark they went out to the Mount of Olives. whose body and spirit momentarily rebelled against what he knew to be the inexorable plan of his Father for the salvation of humanity. a petition concerning “the hour” resembles Mark’s “if it is possible ‘the hour’ might pass from him” (Mark 14:35). But not what I will but what you (will).org/…/easter-04.” (39) And again having gone away. let this cup pass from me. “Sit in this (32) And they come into the plot of land the place until.” (40) And he comes to the disciples and finds them sleeping. Mark and Luke. (38) Then he says to them.” he was falling on his face praying and (35) And having gone forward a little. and James. (14:26. “My Father. having gone away. if it is not possible for this to pass.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… Mark’s “My soul is very sorrowful” (Mark 14:34a). “My soul is very sorrowful unto death. With this reference to a past moment of glorification. not as I will but as you (will). them sleeping. again having bib-arch.33 With John we have come very far from the lonely figure in the moonlight-dappled garden. for their eyes were and they did not know what they should burdened. and he says to Peter. and he began to be greatly distraught and Remain here and keep on watching troubled. (33) And he takes along Peter. if it is possible the hour might pass from him. while I pray. which he does not describe explicitly elsewhere. In John’s gospel. with me. (39) And having gone forward a little. (36) And he was saying. and John with him. he found them (43) And having come.” (37) And he comes and finds them sleeping. and this time there is a positive response from heaven: “I have glorified it. “Sit here (37) And having taken along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee. going away.” and he says to his disciples. As laid out here. saying. and he says to his disciples. name of which was Gethsemane. that if it is possible. he glorifies the Father. Jesus’ submission to the will of his Father is so perfect that he will not even ask for deliverance. and the angel appears in Luke’s account (Luke 22:43).” he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Father. Why should he at the last minute refuse the whole purpose of his life? On the contrary. the plot of land called Gethsemane. a second time. 36–46) (26:30) And having sung a hymn. saying. he prayed. Indeed the spirit is willing. John evokes the Transfiguration. let your will be done.” “My soul is very sorrowful unto death. According to Matthew (26:30. (34) And he says to them.
Compare Mark 14:32 with Matthew 26:36. but it is just the sort of judgment we must make all the time in ordering our lives. in which Jesus says “the same word. This “if” contrasts with the certitude in the next verse.” Both the vagueness of “they come” and the slight confusion caused by “sit here” in Mark’s account are rectified in Matthew. Jesus prays that “if it is possible the hour might pass” (Mark 14:35).” These contradictions in Mark are eliminated by Matthew: “If it is possible. In Mark Jesus collapses. (46) Get up. and Jesus’ move away is announced. saying the same word again. there has come near the one who gives me over. but also a reference. This involves weighing probabilities. our choice is easy. in 26:44.” The word “here” in Mark is somewhat confusing because it gives the impression that Jesus was to stay close to the disciples. Second. let us go! Behold. This might seem a very fragile basis on which to reconstruct the life of Jesus. Our first reaction might be to think that Mark had expanded Matthew. the introduction to the story. we immediately notice two internal contradictions. In each case we must ask which author created the difference by adding or subtracting from the source he was using. It is most improbable that Mark would defame Jesus by transforming the controlled gesture (prayer) of an entirely self-possessed person into an uncontrolled reaction (despair). First. In Matthew. to a third prayer. This simplification then enables Matthew to create a second prayer. Behold the Son of Man is given over into the hands of sinners. Mark has Jesus saying to his disciples. going away.org/…/easter-04. Mark says he is “distraught and troubled”. Now let’s compare Mark 14:33 with Matthew 26:37. as in Genesis 17:3: “Abram fell on his face” (see also Judges 13:20). Did Matthew solve a problem by changing Mark. then. “falling on the earth” (14:35) in an uncontrolled reaction to severe stress. and the Son of Man is given over into the hands of sinners. “Do you go on sleeping. where Jesus’ subjective state is described. “Do you go on sleeping.asp 8/27 . Mark says. Now let’s look at Jesus’ prayer.” while Matthew has. “Jesus comes with them.” Matthew says.” The next comparison involves what happens to Jesus. Again. The hour has come.” Which Came First—Matthew or Mark? By Jerome Murphy-O’Connor Sidebar to: What Really Happened at Gethsemane? Did Matthew copy Mark or the other way round? Clearly the accounts in both gospels are closely related. which has no parallel in Mark 14:39. In the same verses. and says to them. (42) Get up. “My soul is very sorrowful. Matthew’s version of events at Gethsemane includes not only two prayers.3/21/2010 (41) And he comes the third time. and taking your rest? The money is paid. and taking your rest? Behold the hour has come near. who is never explicitly mentioned. whereas in the next verse he moves away. the disciples are told to “sit in this place until. Certainty may elude us. One must have copied from the other. in 26:42. let this cup pass from me” (Matthew 26:39). Here Jesus is mentioned by name. Matthew says “sorrowful and troubled. In many places. “Sit in this place.1 Yet if we look closely at Mark. we must look closely at the significant differences. I will pray there. he prayed a third time.” Mark is vague.” What Really Happened at Gethsemane… gone away. let us go! Behold the one who gives me over has come near. whereas it is very likely that Matthew would attempt to improve the image of Jesus by substituting a controlled reaction for an uncontrolled one. in these two verses the object of Jesus’ prayer shifts from “the hour” to “this cup.” The first two prayers of Jesus in Matthew exhibit Jesus’ increasing degree of acceptance of his bib-arch. (45) Then he comes to the disciples. and says to them. “All things are possible…Take away this cup” (Mark 14:36). To determine which came first.” It is more likely that Matthew changed “distraught” to “sorrowful” to conform with what Jesus says of himself. “they come. Sometimes the judgment is not too difficult. “Sit here. then. or did Mark create a problem by changing Matthew? The choice is an easy one. Matthew was smoothing out Mark. Matthew’s version (26:39) is much shorter than Mark’s (14:35–36). This is the classical Jewish posture of prayer. they are identical. In Matthew Jesus is “falling on his face” (26:39). One has to know that “they” includes Jesus. in which Jesus says.
This minor difficulty is compounded by the pointlessness of his question. That is one reason why his account is so much shorter than Mark’s. Mark 14:41 contains an enigmatic and seemingly meaningless statement without context: “The money is paid” (apechei.4 A final bit of confusion or tension appears in Mark 14:41. So that you can see precisely what changes Luke made. side-by-side. In the next verse. We have just been told that Jesus found all the disciples sleeping (Mark 14:37). The phrases and ideas Luke borrowed from these sources appear in italics. referred to here as A and B. are you sleeping?” Only someone familiar with the gospels would know that Simon and Peter were one and the same person (“He gave the name Peter to Simon” [Mark 3:16]). his submission is complete. in Greek). how did they know that Jesus had returned? And why would they reply when Jesus had said nothing?3 And why would they be troubled over what to answer when they were asleep? Matthew wisely omitted “and they did not know what to answer him” (Matthew 26:43).asp 9/27 . too. Sources A and B are reconstituted in full at left. “to come near. and thus combined them. In the second prayer (36:42). Matthew omits it. Mark 14:37 also might have caused some confusion for an early audience.org/…/easter-04. “Sit here while I pray. in which Jesus says that “the hour has come. This is immediately followed with the somewhat incongruous statement that “they did not know what they should answer him. but he strove to avoid repetition.” both of the hour and of Judas (Matthew 26:45–46). we are told that Jesus found the disciples sleeping. in the central column we’ve isolated the passages that Luke adapted from Sources A and B and aligned them.” (33b) And he began to be Luke’s Use of Source A Luke’s Finished Account Luke 22:39–46 bib-arch.” Matthew solves this problem by using the same verb. (32b) And he says to his disciples.” implying that his arrest is imminent.2 In Mark 14:40. Mark apparently felt that he should not omit anything found in his sources. this time by omitting both the name Simon and the pointless question (Matthew 26:40). 32–42) Source A (14:26b) They went out to the Mount of Olives. with the material he borrowed from A and B in italics. he has only “come near. he sometimes altered the phrasing and the order. If Mark had had this text before him. As we would expect. this hope has been abandoned (“If it is not possible…”). however. we see Luke’s full gospel account of the Agony.” If the disciples were asleep. In the right column. The Sources of Inspiration Sidebar to: What Really Happened at Gethsemane? The repetitions in Mark’s account of the Agony suggest to author Jerome MurphyO’Connor that Mark was working from two earlier sources. As Luke wove together passages from Sources A and B. The Sources of Mark and What Luke Luke (derived Took from from Mark the Sources 14:26. doubtless because he could not understand it either. had access to Sources A and B and tried to be faithful to them. Luke. Scholars fiercely dispute the meaning of this Greek word. In the first (26:39) Jesus still thinks he might be allowed to escape his fate (“If it is possible…”).3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… Father’s will. Matthew takes care of these difficulties. but nonetheless submits to his Father’s will. with the originals (in italics in the left column). In this passage. Jesus says to Peter. Jesus says that “the one who gives me over [Judas]” has not yet arrived. he would not have changed it. “Simon.
for their eyes were very burdened. “Why do you sleep? James. The hour has come.a he found them sleeping. “My soul (22:42a) is very sorrowful Father (42c) Take unto death. (35) And having gone forward a little. and (46) and he said to them. he proceeded according to his custom to the Mount of Olives. (40) And being at the place. if you desire. trial and he says to Peter. Remain here and away this keep watching.” (46) Keep on (37) And he comes and finds praying lest ye enter into them sleeping. and John Having stood up. “Keep on praying not to enter into trial. he said to them.3/21/2010 greatly distraught and troubled. and was praying that if it is possible. let us go. “Abba.org/…/easter-04. then. Nevertheless. “Simon. (41)  And he says to them. the hour might pass from him. he was falling on the earth. Peter. having come to the takes along disciples. “Father. done Take away this (40) Keep on cup from me. (34) enter into trial. bib-arch. (45) And having (33a) And he stood up from prayer. he found them asleep for sorrow. (42) saying.  (42) Get up. saying. of Source B falling down to the earth. (44) And of land the name stood up being in agony. he was praying more earnestly.” What Really Happened at Gethsemane… (22:39a)to the Mount of Olives (39b) the disciples (44) Being in agony…his sweat became as if drops of blood falling down to the earth (41) he drew away from them as if a stone’s throw (42b) if you desire (45) he found them asleep for sorrow (46) Why do you sleep? (22:39) And having gone out.” And he says to them. “Do you go on sleeping. strengthening him. But not what I praying not to enter into will but what trial you (will). Father.” (41) And he drew away from them as if a stone’s throw. not my will but yours (14:32a) They (46b) having be done.” (43) But an angel from heaven come to the plot appeared to him. Behold the one who gives me over has come near. take away this cup Source B from me. and taking your rest? The money is paid. not my will but yours be all things are possible to you.asp 10/27 . of which was Luke’s Use And his sweat became as if drops of blood Gethsemane.” cup from me (36) And he was (42d) Nevertheless. keep on praying lest you with him. and having knelt he was praying. (40) Having come . and the disciples too followed him.
3/21/2010 are you sleeping? Where you not strong enough to watch one hour? (38) Keep ye watching and praying lest ye enter into trial.org/…/easter-04.14 speak of the "blood of grapes.asp 11/27 . Share Talkback What Really Happened at Gethsemane… Share Email Add Your Comment John's Gospel's Easter Chris Albert Welles — France (2/28/2010 3:07:18 PM) John's easter is before the Jewish easter. He is anti-establishment and pro-Hellenistic. He wrote in a different town and context.” (40b) And they did not know what they should answer him. John's Messiah is not competing against Moses and shows that he has decided to ignore the ancient Jewish prophet and giver of the Old Law. If Truth exists than it doesn't change. how does lack of mention of meat/etc prove that it was not there? Isn't this an argument from silence? ••••••• Truth Stephe Quanbeck — United States (5/12/2009 12:00:21 PM) We can have our own beliefs and convictions but that doesn't mean they are always right. They are competing with the Temple calender. ••••••• Last Supper wine and food Rick Carpenter — (12/28/2009 10:35:02 PM) Genesis 49. We have only have the freedom to hold those right or wrong beliefs. John's Gospel places it before. bib-arch. (He is eliminated during the Mountain Transfiguration scene) The synoptic Gospels are replacing the Moses festivities by their own nascent cult. His Messiah is anterior to Judaism. The variation between the two sets of Gospels is however easy to explain. In the beginning was the Word also contradicts the Old Testament opening. we are either right with our beliefs and convictions or we are wrong.John is not competing to replace Moses who conscequently belongs to a much later context. (Before Abraham was. Indeed the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I am). A question on the food though." which apparently Jesus conflated with the blood of sacrifices. ••••••• The Synoptic Gospel's Easter Chris Albert Wells — France (2/28/2010 3:06:26 PM) The synoptic Gospels made the Christian easter coincide with the Jewish festivities.11 and Deuteronomy 32.The synoptics were written by an anti-establishment Jewish group in Antiochus that intended to take over from Moses.
being God's lamb. literature. industrial or religious will be identified by a list of members. I glad that. There is no requirement that we agree on anything except that there are facts and there are truths Question everything. political. 72 hours after His burial as He promised." God loves us and will take care of us forever.000 years. no Savior. Who are the disciples and who the traitor in an Essene community changing into a Christian community in Antiochus? We will deal here with the disciples. after 50 years as a pastor. The top line will name or recall the founder. Any institution. I spent a pleasant fifteen minutes reading all that has been written. and archaeological findings available to everyone. Thank you! ••••••• Last 24 Hours Redman — USA (4/3/2009 11:45:19 PM) It surely wasn't the last 24 hours of that week that gave meaning to that time but the last 72.org/…/easter-04. P. meaning He arose late on the weekly Sabbath. surely you jest? ••••••• The Eucharist—Exploring Its Origins Jim Gustafson — USA (3/27/2009 9:21:29 AM) A very bad opening premise. That's enough for me. three days and three nights in the earth. Faith Jack Byers — United States of America (3/23/2009 9:56:03 PM) Well. followed by the present leader and his team. PAX ••••••• Gethsemane Jared Walker — (4/22/2009 2:43:11 PM) Brilliant! An unbiased reader should appreciate this clarification of the confusing Gethsemane story. although I haven't read all the history or delved into every book. believe what you will. As He said. ••••••• History/scholarship vs. It was His resurrection that changed the world.asp 12/27 . as always. a matter of faith and/or belief. our faith would be for naught. my faith is just a simple belief that regardless of this or that "fact. "An Easter Discussion".3/21/2010 ••••••• What Really Happened at Gethsemane… Lat 24 Hours Robert James Shand — Mexico (5/7/2009 1:31:35 PM) With all of the data.. Jesus is with his disciples and a traitor. it is. Had He not walked from the tomb. I'd suggest it was time to leave the pew. no returning Lord of lords and King of kings. What you or I believe is all that matters.. no high priest. again just at sunset. ••••••• Who was invited to the Last Supper? Chris Albert Wells — france (10/13/2008 5:06:33 AM) During the Last Supper." Were the speaker of such a sentence standing in a pulpit. Jesus. no advocate. With the Passover being on a Wednesday evening (Unleavened Bread began on Thursday). Is the list of twelve apostles bib-arch.S. had died that afternoon and was buried just before sunset. "What Jesus was doing at the Last Supper has not been understood for the better part of 2.
Do the names on the list side with James the traditionalist or are they on Mark's side. If we continue looking at the list. James and John brother of James. The last names of the list. The Gospels were true to their epoch and milieu.org/…/easter-04. Resurrection was the final anathema thrown into the face of 'the others' telling them that the Temple is the House of Eternal Death'. They are under the stern leadership of James 'overseer and apostle' of the Essene Antiochus community. 'overseer and Apostle'. out of contexte and less concerned by the original culture. It may even echo opposition between an ancient brotherhood of Cephas and a later brotherhood of the Lord to which Peter is then associated. The first three names on the apostle list gives us Simon. There is an obvious animosity here.asp 13/27 . and also Simon ben Cephalas (Cephalas and Cephas are equivalents and explain the Simon called Peter) and Jude. It is one of the most magnificent slogans that could have been invented and probably gave the tenants of such a bold policy against the Institution the nick name of 'Christians'. If the apostles represent an opposition group against Mark and his Jesus faction. In the deepest layer. James son of Alphaeus (the Greek equivalent of Cephalas). The names of the 'brothers' who offend Jesus are Simon and Jose and James and Jude. seem to fail to understand the wisdom of Messiah Jesus. Resurrection belongs to the field of political rhetorics and has its full meaning as such. Resurrection. the traitor set apart. never will you survive if you do not join us. It is therefore difficult to accept the Apostles as original followers of the avant-garde supported by Mark. confirmed again by the 'stone scroll' and revival after three days. If you can accept that John later replaced Jude as brother of James when the fourth Gospel became 'en vogue' and John the pet disciple of Rome. it should show in his gospel. Look at the story (in Mark chapter 3) of Jesus coming to Nazareth: his brothers meet him saying they must restrict him for he is out of his mind. is read on face value and is in reality a Pauline forgery while exporting the Gospels and tempting his listeners into eternal life. supporting a different community project under the Messiah Jesus. Three of the names belong to the list of apostles and leaders of the traditional Essene community. The apostles. Gospel narroators were not 'journalists' and were not just telling stories but had something serrious to prove. The final argument within the intense intra community climate 'dividing the house' is the Resurrection. has multiple layers to it. Thaddeus and Thomas and Jude are the same person (you can always contact me if wanting more details). as all legends. Thaddaeus and Simon the zealot The list repeats itself and gives the impression of conveying the Antiochus community administration list at different periods of its evolution. we find Thomas. even Peter who has to face the severe 'Va de retro Satanas'. special offers and more. Not in the least do they represent such thought. They are often scolded by Jesus. Most scholars have noticed how ‘dumb’ they are and agree that 'something is wrong'. Resurrection has been considered by those who depreciate the Gospels as an Essene fraude. Within the Antiochus Essene community turning into a Christian community 'Mark' is at the centre of intense polemics against the 'traditionalists' dormant under the shadow of eschatology and the nearby synagogue. no lies. as later understood by the Greco-Romans. The last Supper. Community leaders and the list of apostles have names in common. Initially. we can carry on together. brother of James. except sometime Peter. 'Mark' has simply reinterpreted Isaiah: 'Those who do not follow the Law will be dead for ever' a quotation that slides into 'those who do not follow the New Law will de dead for ever' (adressing the Pharesees) which slides further into 'those who do not follow the New Messiah will not know eternal life'(adressing the intra community division). ••••••• Join us on Facebook Follow us on Twitter SEARCH Resurrection: an Essene or a Pauline forgery? Chris Albert Wells — France (10/10/2008 5:31:17 AM) The idea of resurrection and bodily survival is attested in the Old Testament and in dissident Qumran. Jesus is surrounded only by opponents to his doctrinal and political position within the community. behind the scenes stories. all were traitors to his cause. ••••••• Free Email Newsletter Get Bible and archaeology news. just a different language. (Jose or Joseph are later additions once the genealogy has been coined by Mathew).3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… informing us on the organisation of the Essene community and its mutation towards a Christian Community? The Church Fathers and the Syriac sources give us as early leaders of the community James the Just. Ente r your e m a il a ddre ss he re GO RECIPIENT'S NAME ADDRESS 1 ADDRESS 2 CITY STATE ZIP bib-arch. we who represent the 'House of Eternal Life'.
It seems to me that John says a totally different thing than Matthew. we read: At the head of the procession came the sacrificial animals. Experience the beauty and the history of these jewels of the Middle East. .Jo urne yAnswe rs.org/k ingdom /?s=2 Both the sacrificers and Simon came in from the countryside to carry the weapon Neil Godfrey — Australia (4/17/2008 5:33:30 AM) FREE Downloadable E-Books The record appears to come at least a century after Mark's gospel was written. more specifically his brothers brought him to a family grave. . One thing I've been wondering about is the inconsistency of the texts in the Gospels about the grave in which Jesus supposedly has been laid. There then because of the Jews' Preparation (for the tomb was nigh at hand) they laid Jesus'." Was it then a traditional part of the Triumph for the sacrificers to come from the Dig country. but Luke and especially John has a different view on this matter. Check your medical references. probably somewhere around Jerusalem or in the Galilee. www. If they had cut an Journey from Petra to Palmyra with BAS! entire foot off. was dragooned from the countryside. Surprising message about Jesus C hrist's & God's Kingdom.gnm agazine . Shenberg — usa (7/7/2008 3:50:19 PM) Join us for a medley of past and present in Syria.asp 14/27 .com High Quality Jesus Photos & Videos Perfect for Easter Publicity Gospel of the Kingdom Free book. ••••••• Looking for Spiritual Truth? Find a Relationship with God God. and in their right hands they each brandished a double-headed I Volunteered for This?! Life on an Archaeological axe. The First Christmas: The Story of Jesus’ Birth in History and Legend ••••••• The Word became Flesh Matthew Thornton — USA (3/27/2008 11:58:21 PM) Israel: An Archaeological Journey bib-arch. countryfolk in country costume . ••••••• C yclical.DEAD BODIES DON'T BLEED! If he bled after being pierced.co m Amazing Jesus Photos churche sinm otion. and in the garden a new tomb wherein was never man yet laid. ••••••• From Petra to Palmyra Visiting Syria.O m e ga -Disciple ship.org/…/easter-04.I suppose that after the Shabbat the family of Jesus. John says in 19:41-42 'Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden. he would've been bled out by gravity. led on the halter by the men who were to perform the holy rites. to lie in a family grave was very important. Intentional discipleship resources to equip your church. the one who carried the instrument of sacrifice. Antioch and Jordan with lecturer Dr. There is no mention that this grave was the grave owned bij Joseph. . I don't know why you folks are arguing about whether or not he survived the crucifixion . What about Christ and His beautiful & humble example of foot washing which portrayed the attitudes that we must have to be called Christians. Matthew writes that this grave was Joseph's. then he was obviously still alive at that time.com Discipleship Training Last Supper R Benton — USA (5/3/2008 8:13:25 PM) It is interesting to read the various comments. 2010 Sheiman/Thornton Survival Response G. Chahinda Karim October 21—November 5. Antioch and Jordan. because the new grave was very close to the crucifixion site and the time for Preparation for Shabbat and Passover was at hand. but it Easter: Exploring the Resurrection of Jesus may be worth a footnote to add to the record that according to Heliodorus's "An Ethiopian Story". John really says that.3/21/2010 Holy Sepulchre What Really Happened at Gethsemane… STATE ZIP E-MAIL Cees van Meerkerken — The Netherlands (9/4/2008 5:35:27 PM) I've read the article of Dan Bahat about the holy Sepulchre. The gospel writers make it plain that he was still alive at that How to Know God point. they laid the body of Jesus in a temporary grave. presumably where the cattle for sacrifice were bred and where there were more readily found the practiced butchers? Simon of Cyrene. Book 3. Therefore I must conclude that this convenient nearby grave was used for only a couple of days. I must suppose this because for the Jews 'to be gathered to their fathers' or better said. www. but a simple incision will NOT bleed on a dead body.
Sheiman — U.. the Romans fulfilled Scripture that no bone of Messiah. How tragic. you are mistaken that Christ survived the Crucifixion. I don't believe Pilate was involved at all. which happens to be about the amount of text recorded? Luke quotes Jesus saying that they were witnesses of these things. They placed the spear in His side and the flow of blood mixed with water confirmed He was dead. in many of your posts you are quick to dismiss the express words of Scripture in favor of some speculative idea of what might have happened or what is more reasonable to believe. To speed death. In stark contrast. Because Jesus was already dead. They couldn't have heard five minutes of his prayer before falling asleep.Saying most of Jesus'life was not observed is really quite a inconceivable! You mean Mary couldn't have told Luke and Matthew the details surrounding the birth? Jesus couldn't have relayed to his disciples the details of his encounter with Satan? The disciples must have fallen asleep the very second Jesus asked them to watch. Remember: The Word became Flesh. While you are certainly free to reject the veracity of the Scriptural account. When they came to Jesus. but to challenge you to consider what you are missing. the Romans would break the legs of the crucified. Crucifiction bib-arch.A. The Romans would not have let anyone off the cross who was not dead. but because Jesus was murdered on erev Shabbath he was taken down after 9 hours. That you might willingly trade the richness of the Living Word for words which have no life. as God's sacrificial lamb. I say this not to demean you. Unwittingly. ••••••• The Olympic Games: How They All Began The Dead Sea Scrolls—What They Really Say The Burial of Jesus Real or Fake? Forgery Conference Report what really happened in Gethsemene paul wallace — usa (3/26/2008 7:28:57 PM) In response to RN Hall . there was no need for his legs to be broken. Think about it. he was already dead (having already voluntarily given up His spirit-Jn 19:30).3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… From Babylon to Baghdad: Ancient Iraq and the Modern West Mr. Geoff Hudson.org/…/easter-04. It can be known experientially. His feet were anchored to the cross so he could push himself up to inhale. but are devoid of real meaning.S. would be broken. (3/26/2008 2:43:27 PM) Roman law called for the subject to remain on the "cross" for 24 hours. your lofty theoreticals are full of spiritual thoughts. (See John 19:34-37 and Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12) ••••••• Explanation for the Resurrection Stuart M. A review of your most recent post and your prior posts reveal a person who has devoted much time to studying spiritual things. Would they all but one die a martyr's death for some story they made up? ••••••• Crucifixion Matthew Thornton — (3/26/2008 5:29:45 PM) Mr.asp 15/27 . How sad. If the authorities did this to avoid trouble they went about it exactly the wrong way. before Passover seems most unlikely. personal relationship with the living God for God inhabits His Word. Sheiman. Lk 24:48 The book of Acts is all about the Apostles relaying what they witnessed. A more feasible discrete procedure would have been to execute the prophet after The Feast (I have suggested after the last great day of the Feast of Tabernacles) by a swift traditional stoning.they are empty words. Flesh is real. It can be touched. with death after a prolonged period of suffering. in doing so you deny yourself the ability to have a deep. meaningful.. ••••••• Exploring Jordan: The Other Biblical Land Island Jewels: Understanding Ancient Cyprus and Crete The Execution of a Popular Prophet Must Have Been Discrete Geoff Hudson — UK (3/27/2008 6:53:20 AM) That a popular prophet was crucified in full view of crowds. Yet. Romans would hardly have been so crass as to risk any unrest.
••••••• Pilate was Agrippa I? Geoff Hudson — UK (3/25/2008 12:02:05 PM) There are doubts about the length of Pilate's term of office . On page 4 of his article (http://www. and bread was his flesh of sacrifice!" -where did this come from?!) Mr.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… included to "open" the subject with a wip from head to toe.com. in the absence of a Temple permitting his view of purity to be practiced. Obviously pastor West did not read the article that he recommended. I wholeheartedly recommend Dr. Fruchtenbaum to anyone who wishes to know (and not just know about) the historical Jesus. (Example: "Jesusâ€™ point rather was that. ••••••• Beware of Literalistic 'Biblical Historians' Spouting-On About Easter Geoff Hudson — UK (3/26/2008 2:26:05 PM) Over on Crosstalk 2 pastor J West sounds the praises of an article about Easter written by someone who fancies himself as a biblical historian.com/group/crosstalk2/message/22551) Dr John Dickson is the director of the Centre for Public Christianity (www. let alone 800 being crucified. wine was his blood of sacrifice.org/ffruit. especially when they are recommended by pastors.publicchristianity.yahoo. Jesus survived the crucifiction but probably died of shock and mass infection.org) and an honorary associate of the Department of Ancient History at Macquarie University. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. His ministry web site can be accessed at http://www. Chilton's imagination.org/…/easter-04. And one should be wary when reading the words of literalistic biblical historians such as Dickson. I therefore suspect that it was Agrippa I who was persecuting the prophets and was ultimately responsible for the death of The Prophet. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Josephus both report an incident where 800 Pharisees were crucified on one day. ••••••• The Last Supper Matthew Thornton — USA (3/26/2008 2:26:51 PM) For an insightful commentary on the symbolism of The Last Supper from a Jewish perspective.au/news/national/facts-and-friction-of-easter /2008/03/21/1205602592557. one Dr John Dickson. The "historical" facade is internally inconsistent as well. The prophet was accused of being a false prophet and he would have undergone a traditional stoning procedure which meant being pushed from a high place before the first stone was dropped on the fallen victim to stop the heart. I have always enjoyed Dr. The sentence and execution of the prophet would have been under Jewish law. The impact this has had on my life is substantial.a nice round figure of 10 years apparently.smh. (see http://groups.htm#top and scroll down to "mbs-114 The Feast of Pesach (Passover)" for the commentary. Chilton's reconstruction ignores/dismisses the consistent meaning given to the last supper by the early church and the testimony of the early church fathers. but would be more appropriate for the king Agrippa I.html?page=4) Dickson writes: "Jews were perhaps the most crucified people in antiquity. The traditional meaning is rejected because it would make Jesus very unJewish (example: bib-arch.asp 16/27 .ariel. ••••••• The Eucharist Susan Burns — Oklahoma (3/24/2008 4:27:23 PM) A nice piece of speculation but many key conclusions are asserted without support from any sources other than Mr. Almost everything in the writings attributed to Josephus about Pilate doesn't make sense." Now the DSS do not even mention Pharisees.
Taylor . Taylor forgets that the olive is a fruit and would be cultivated as in a garden. Taylor's point is meaningless.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… "What Jew would tell another to drink blood. To this end. Most of the information is an argument to prove that the cave near the Garden of Gethsemane is the place where Jesus was arrested. like the Mount of Olives. thus the Garden of Gethsemane is not." St. and. John called Gethsemane a keÂµpos. As the cultivation of grain crops transformed the hunters and gatherers into farming societies. Chilton has gotten the jump on her. almost the entire article is devoted to proving that the cave had been used to house two olive presses and store olive oil. that keÂµpos could actually be "small market garden" thus by extension unsuitable for praying. The olive tree represents a cultural component that helped societies develop a higher level of cultural awareness. Taylor provides no Archaeological evidence for this. Garden of the Oil Press: So using Taylor's own tools and words. 2008 . With the cultivation of the olive tree humans were able to develop commercial. thus they had to go to the cave because it was too cold outside to sleep. so the cultivation of the olive tree represents an important cultural milestone in the evolution of Mediterranean cultures. the opposition of the authorities and even some of Jesus' followers is predicated on Jesus' break with Jewish orthodoxy or orthopraxy. Of course the Garden was a cultivated grove of olive trees close by to where they could be processed.Biblical Archaeological Review Response: I have been to the Gethsemane Cave and I have some opinions which differ from Taylor.March 21. As I read the various points my mind retorted. while Jesus was a rebel. this is not new. he just wasn't rebellious enough? The thesis doesn't hold up as analysis although it could be deemed a good read. means Gethsemane is the Garden of the Gethsemane. KeÂµpos: A very large point made by Taylor is the true meaning of the word keÂµpos. so what? I apologize for my somewhat long response. the Garden of the Oil Press. more accurately translated as â€œa cultivated tract of land. cultural and social activities and interactions that were unimaginable earlier. Turcotte — USA (3/21/2008 10:15:59 PM) RESPONSE TO: "The Garden Of Gethsemane: Not The Place of Jesus' Arrest" by Joan E. most interesting and logical ••••••• Garden of Gethsemane Not The Place of Jesus Arrest Dr.Biblical Archaeological Review Dr. According to Taylor: "KeÂµpos" can be translated as 'garden. devoted to using known differences in the Gospel accounts to support the theory that the Garden of Gethsemane is not a garden as opposed to using agricultural data. Robert B. Would we not expect to find gardens of olive trees on the Mount of Olives and an Olive Press? And was not the Mount of Olives the gathering place for the people from the Galilee at Jerusalem for festivals? And others occupied other geographic areas surrounding the city because here was not room for all inside the city. It can refer to anything from a large orchard or plantation to a small plot. So Jesus went into the city by day and came out from the city to the Mount of Olives at night. Are we to abandon the traditional understanding on the grounds that. Olive tree cultivation and the production of olives and olive oil has been a catalyst in the evolution of the civilization in the Mediterranean region where some of the earliest human civilizations developed. At the same time. Agricultural History of the Mediterranean: Taylor should do well to pay attention to the agricultural history of the Mediterranean and Olive Tree. The Mount of Olives was literally a garden of olives. I wonder what it will be another two weeks? Only 19 lines are devoted to the "testimony" of three pilgrims regarding the Gethsemane cave. Olive oil was one of bib-arch.asp 17/27 . and. This is silly. ••••••• The Eucharist Amnon Wallenstein — Israel (3/22/2008 7:20:32 AM) Most. Guessing: By my count there are some 340 lines of information posited. Anne Rice hasn't gotten to this segment of Jesus' life yet so it may be that Mr. The implication being it could have been a small plot or as Taylor suggests.' but to Taylor it is really a general term. small type and is rather convoluted. which has its very valid place. Robert B.org/…/easter-04. I say: So what? Oral Tradition. but the Taylor article is about 340 lines long. and that Jesus took the Apostles there to go to bed after the Last Supper. Turcotte . even symbolic blood?").
" Note. invites them to one side. and called Peter. This is not what Matthew. there is no mention that Jesus "went out" (exeÂµlthen) of anything or any words which could be translated as such.. That is Taylor's one reason. Mark and Luke say. Taylor even quotes the account of Peter warming himself by the fire as Jesus' trial is going on to prove it was chilly. How did we get here? So we can get out. it had to be the olive oil press cave or complex. he asks the three to remain here and keep awake. to meet the soldiers as John says. Why disbelieve these accounts in this matter but accept these accounts in other matters in attempting to prove your case? And Luke's account does not say. Taylor posited the hypothesis and then went looking for things to bolster the hypothesis. Taylor insists that Jesus "went out" (exeÂµlthen) something. It seems one cannot enter into or someone cannot have went out unless it is an enclosure with a roof over it. Or were they? According to Taylor. This point which Taylor stretches is confounding. or as other translations say: "Jesus then came forward" (to meet the soldiers). Taylor says it was too cold to sleep outside. Taylor says it was only Peter James and John. What other conclusion could there be? Taylor tries to cover this by writing without support another hypothesis: "They either rented the property. 'Get up and pray not to be put to the test. as Taylor claims. he went on a little further and prayed. 14:34-35. (Taylor says) lighting lamps and taking of their coats to sleep for bed. the "cultivated area". James and John . Maybe Jesus just went out of the Garden of Gethsemane. but Taylor uses this to an advantage. he went out of the park. "And he said to them. Perhaps Jesus was restless. in Mark "Jesus asks his disciples to sit down while he prays.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… the most valuable products of the world at that time. We can imagine them entering the warm cave.' I hope Jesus did not wake the masses of other people who were in the cave also. Taylor also brings in the climate of Jerusalem at the time of Passover as being too chilly for sleep outside." Was there a cave in Jerusalem from which Jesus "went out'? With such flimsy evidence and massaging of words. this hour might pass him by. he was outside. and these are Taylor's words. the garden area by Taylor's description was the walled-in the area in front of the cave. surrounding the cave entrance." Is Jesus not surprised by this? Luke says: 22:45-46: "When he rose from prayer he went to the disciples and found them sleeping for sheer grief. John picks up the story after the Last Supper with Jesus' arrest in the Garden.." The others Taylor presumes are allowed to slumber. In using John. not John) into which he and his disciples entered. " (Jesus is surprised?) 'Why are you sleeping?' he said to them. and that something must of course be an overhead enclosure. All of the this is to set up the idea that Jesus had to have went out of something more than a garden. not to go to bed. Wait here and keep awake. But even here the accounts differ.asp 18/27 . the owner had offered it to them out of respect for Jesus. James and John over to him asking them to stay alert. "went out" (exeÂµlthen) of something within the garden to meet the soldiers.' And going on a little further he threw himself on the ground and prayed that. In the same translation Taylor uses. not to sleep. Why would Taylor believe Jesus took the disciples to a cave to go to sleep as opposed to pray? Why? It fits Taylor's hypothesis. or indicates that: "it (Gethsemane) is the place where Jesus regularly slept. Taylor must have that assumption. Distressed. the three accounts say Jesus went there to pray. In John." And again. or as Taylor would have it. how can such conclusions be drawn? He went into the park. The difficulty of word translation and meaning should be guarded. if it were possible. The Garden of Gethsemane is in front of the bib-arch. This an awful lot about nothing. or else. the rest were in the cave. not a cave. we repeat John: "he went out of Jerusalem.org/…/easter-04. He went into the Garden. to leave: Taylor says John's account "goes like this": "After Jesus had spoken these words. Oh I forgot. But Taylor insists Jesus took them there to sleep because it was nighttime. Taylor uses the one translation of Jesus and his disciples to enter (eis) "into" the cultivated area and says "eis" thus must imply there is a wall surrounding it. meaning out of the cave. To Sleep Or Not To Sleep?: Jesus took the Apostles to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray. He then 'takes to himself'' Peter. not that he goes away with them anywhere." In Mark. he went out of the Garden. wearing a cloak and a coat sit on the ground and fall asleep even if it were cold? I can imagine that." John's account picks up with Jesus entering the Garden and then being arrested. Again Taylor assumes the purpose for which Jesus brought them to the Garden of Gethsemane was to go to bed for the night. Later Taylor says in John that Jesus (John 18:4). Yet even Taylor repeats that Jesus returns "to find them all fast asleep. so of course Jesus and the Apostles must have been in the cave. Could people after a Passover meal feeling sleepy. Taylor suggests that Jesus never left the garden area. 'My soul is sorrowful to the point of death. Going out of. he went out (from Jerusalem) with his disciples across the Kidron Valley to where there was a garden (/cultivated area added by Taylor. Taylor wants it both ways.
It is interesting that this harvest time approaches the cooling seasons of Autumn and Winter in Judea. nights are cold and the dew heavy. in the Garden of Gethsemane. This is what we would expect to see under the existing floor at the Gethsemane Cave. Taylor asserts that the spacious cave of Gethsemane not only had room for a "mass of people" in which to keep warm. This does not look like a very comfortable place to stay. This olive oil storage room. olives which had dropped to the ground or which may have spoiled were made into olive oil and such was stored in closed-mouthed earthenware vats to discourage rancidity. was that a lot of men for those days? Or was it because it might be likely Jesus would be with his many followers? Did Judas tell the chief priests about Jesus' custom to pray with the 12 alone in the Garden. it is today except for the road. heat was known as its enemy. came up. The stone vessels holding the oil would have been covered and kept in a cool. arrested Jesus and bound Him. the highest quality would have been processed as we do now. An Analogy: The last thing we may want to contemplate is who came to arrest Jesus? Why? It goes to the thinking and methodology. Hardly the place for tables as described by Taylor. and the one called Judas. let us think about the olive oil complex on the Mountain of Olive (Trees) which provided the space for the press and storage of oil and the olive trees. Amatzia. one of the twelve. The agriculture and economics of time need to be considered as well as what the witnesses who were closest to the events have to say." Luke 22:47 . with its grooved floor. It is true that the Fall is the harvest time for olives. allowed oil spilled to be saved and recollected in a stone-cut depression in the floor. This storage room in Amatzia shows us just how valuable olive oil was to the ancient Israelites and the architecture in use. knowing his hour was coming. would there be trouble? Was it bib-arch. behold. But why so many? Was it because Judas told the chief priests Jesus would likely be with a group of 12. Why Taylor chooses to emphasize heat as most important in the process is unknown. There is the presumption again. This was it. Was the cave an Inn or an olive press? Could it be both? And why does Taylor insist on Jesus not being arrested in an olive garden. without heating." John 18:12 . "Friend. Judas. cold pressed. from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. The coldness strikes you. would want a mass of people warming up his storage rooms with lamps or fires and warming up his olive oil in the cave. And Jesus said to him. Well. a multitude came. came up. The storage pots are replicas of original pots unearthed here.) is located in a labyrinth of over 40 interconnected underground rooms. dark place. Judas. you know how cold the Gethsemane Cave is. even in April. one of the twelve. Below is a picture of the olive oil storage room at Amatzia. from the chief priests and elders of the people ." Mark 14:43 . do what you have come for. Jesus never left the Garden area and the disciples were always close by. This was a valuable crop. We do not expect a change in storage technology over a 100 year period. it is alright that they are different as it is with the accounts of other incidents in the life of Jesus because this is how they are remembered by the witnesses there at the time and passed on: Matthew 26:47-50 "And while He was still speaking. Taylor hypotheses that it is extremely improbable that Jesus and his disciples would have spent the night in the open sleeping amid the olive trees. I do not believe the owner of that olive garden. But what is being describes is two huge olive presses and storage areas for the Autumn and Winter months and then sleeping quarters for "masses of people" during Passover. If you have been to Gethsemane. the headquarters of the Bar-Kochba revolt against the Romans (132-135 C. like the Gethsemane Cave to prevent oxidation. and he approached Jesus to kiss Him. These are the accounts. one of the twelve.org/…/easter-04. The cave would provide protection from sunlight and heat." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.E. And these are the type vessels we would also expect to see. Virgin olive oil. This does not mean there were no tables in the cave. was preceding them. accompanied by a great multitude with swords and clubs. and the officers of the Jews.asp 19/27 ." All that was seemingly important was that a lot of people came to arrest Jesus. Taylor describes the cave and the garden as one."So the Roman cohort and the commander. or did he go to the Garden to go to bed? According to Taylor. In historical times such as this period."While He was still speaking. Did Jesus go to the Garden to pray. behold.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… cave. Taylor admits the actual floor of the cave cannot be seen. accompanied by a multitude with swords and clubs. but they would have been sealed. All through Taylor's dissertation there are posits of supposed common knowledge and "common sense conclusions" bolstering the hypotheses. We have to choose. but it would have been a useful storage area as well. . that estate."And immediately while He was still speaking. It is only within the last 50 years that people world wide have begun to expect non-rancid olive oil because of the advances in storage and containers. and the wall the Franciscans Friars have put up to protect the olive trees.
One was more knowledgeable. not conjecture. You know the one. Egeria. It was warm not cold or chilly. I need more enlightenment.M. but he left the cloth in their hands and ran away naked." The first woman said "Yes. the above proofs take up 16 lines. April 6. This has less validity than the placing of Golgotha as the place of crucifixion or the Garden of Gethsemane as Jesus' place of arrest.M. the other was a regular. Taylor believes this is because everyone somehow knew it was a cave. The most likely explanation. and places Passover as 14 Nissan. it is not even traditional. and 69 degrees. Treasures which are real. Academic Freedom: Academic freedom. as to why there where so many people in the arresting party could be: that was the Roman way. Arculf (7th century) as proof for the cave as being the site of Jesus' arrest because they went there. was it because Jesus was on the Mount of Olives where all the Galileans were camping out for Passover and there could be great resistance anticipated? No. They caught hold of him. The Roman way would have been to ensure the capture with overwhelming force. Here is the difference between speculation that provides opportunity for publication and fact which enlightens: I was talking with two Jewish women about a recent trip to Jerusalem. Taylor's dissertation here unfortunately is not like this. This is what happened. that of 340 lines in this article. 9 P. in the cave and there would be resistance from the masses? Or. not guesses and hypothesis. So how does Taylor justify that instance as proof of Jesus not being in the Garden of Olives but being in the Cave of Olives? It was cold. writers fail to mention this feature" (the cave) Taylor writes.M." The question is what place? "After Theodosius." Noone knows who the young man is. 9:00 P. there are no details given. in our times. was 65 degrees Fahrenheit.org/…/easter-04. in 382.asp 20/27 . not because they were present. some columns and decorative patterns on the ceiling. In April 2003 I stayed at the Gethsemane Hermitage across from the Gethsemane Cave. The talent to form these kinds of hypotheses and ability to force pieces of puzzles together from different but seemingly related boxes of puzzle pieces makes fodder for publication. A Roman Cohort of a Roman Legion would consist of five centuries of 160 crack troops.E. so we need more proof than the conjecture than Taylor has provided. Saturday night. We know of the correction to the calendar. on Sunday night in Jerusalem. things having a real connection to the period. The point is. I watched the Palm Sunday procession from the Hermitage grounds and was outside at night both there and in Jerusalem across from the New Gate. in the sindoÂµn who followed Jesus after the arrest and according to Mark 14:50-54: "A young man who followed him had nothing on but a linen cloth. factually documented. It makes no difference. Hmmmm. and an early pilgrim. (800 men) if it were of the first cohort or six centuries of 80 troops (400 men) if it were the second through the tenth Cohort. not all the Galileans could fit in the cave. especially with respect to what is now called "The Historical Jesus".3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… because there were masses of people. John mentions a cohort with a commander arresting Jesus. but this is outside the Temple. Taylor does offer accounts of a nun. Who knows the temperature that night? The temperature in Jerusalem today at 9:00 P. The second woman was shocked and turned to the other and said: "I thought there were to be no images. It does make a difference. We must be careful about that which we put forth as factual conclusions and that which we dream. I happened to mention a picture I saw in book of the two ramps leading up to and down from the Temple on the South side toward the City of David. ••••••• bib-arch. It is like the "poor young man" as Taylor describes him. matches Thursday as the Jewish Passover. The claim is also made that not until the 12th century that anyone thought of the Garden of Gethsemane as the place of the arrest. and Jesus' estimated age of 33. Theodosius in the early 6th century is mentioned as observing "This place is in a cave and even now two hundred monks go down there. every day. where the stone block had been removed and there was just enough light to snap a picture of the two ramps. good practicing Jew. There on the ceiling were drawn depictions of birds and flowers. I never knew that before. So much for the cold. forecast is for 66 degrees." Such are the treasures awaiting the eyes of this and future generations. Who cares? It is part of the observation of the witnesses who were there at the time. if anyone cares. as Taylor asserts. The year 30 C. has allowed for all kinds of speculation based upon opinion and interpretation as to what might have been. That is the responsibility of the those who apply the scientific method. Some would like to think he is John the Evangelist but that is not even confirmed in tradition and always qualified. Some climatologist have described this Judean season as sometimes being North America's "Indian Summer". where he came from. puts Pilate in Judea. if he was aroused from another camp by the noise.
not to the Mount of Olives. However I have seen paintings of Jerusalem from the Middle Ages showing the tomb quite clearly.14. This would have been immediately before the sunset that started the last great day of The Feast on a Sabbath. the Spirit had not yet been given. In another sense. And we know from the account that the tomb and the Garden were in the place where He was crucified. He was well aware that he was due for arrest by the chief priests who knew exactly where to find him without any informer. â€˜Living waterâ€™ or â€˜pure waterâ€™ referred to the continual obedient actions of those cleansed by the Spirit. streams of living water will flow from within himâ€. This was for an oblation when water would be poured out into the earth. preferring the status quo of the temple cult of animal sacrifices for sins.13). But it carries on Northward to the area of the Garden Tomb. implying in effect.14." And where the Garden Tomb is there is ample evidence that in the time of Jesus it would have been the garden of a very wealthy bib-arch.22. Thus came the saying "In the mountain of the Lord it shall be seen. In John it is an olive grove. (Mk. On the last and great day of The Feast. â€œIf anyone is thirsty.14.14. the prophet stood (no doubt on the steps to the sanctuary) and proclaimed loudly. There was no last supper as such. That is the Garden tomb also known as Gordon's Calvary. because most of the priests rejected it. The two prophets were to meet a fellow prophet carrying a jar of water (Mk. the water of the New Covenant was poured out by the prophet." The ultimate sacrifice had to be on Mount Moriah the mountain of the Lord. In Luke it is the Mount of Olives. let him come and drink. but for Israel. ••••••• Jesus Burial place Bob — (3/21/2008 7:06:50 AM) I was really sad to read the article on the Church of the Holy Sepulcre.41) and the place of his subsequent arrest was the sanctuary the prophet 'went as usual'.7. Simply because good soil was discovered above the ancient quarry we take a leap of faith and assume that a garden and all manner of trees were grown there!! Ther is another spot which ties in nicely with the biblical account of Jesus' death and burial. But when the prophets gathered at the sanctuary. not for â€˜the manyâ€™.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… The 'Place' of The Prophet's Arrest Geoff Hudson — UK (3/21/2008 2:56:19 PM) In all three synoptics the prophet is arrested in a location referred to as a 'place'. It was a daily ritual during The Feast.37-39.14. but that he did instruct the two to go into the temple and prepare the sanctuary. The altar of incense had to be kept burning and the lights had to be lit.16)? I suggest not.40. but to the sanctuary. The other prophets were keeping watch and praying outside the sanctuary.24). Also in the Lord's time it was outside of the city and beside the approach road to Jerusalem so all could see who "passed by. I suggest that the real 'place' where the prophet was praying (Mk.32. ••••••• The Feast Geoff Hudson — UK (3/21/2008 8:03:06 AM) Did Israelâ€™s innovative prophet tell two of his fellow prophets to â€˜go into the cityâ€™ (Mk. Lk. the Spirit wasnâ€™t yet given to Israel.16) and prepare â€˜the Passoverâ€™ (Mk. If one studies the topography of Jerusalem you will see Mount Moriah is not simply the Temple Mount. The situation was similar to that of Zechariah in Luke 1:8-11. Whoever obeys the Spirit. It is said this tomb was not discovered until the 1800's.asp 21/27 . In Matthew and Mark the 'place' is Gethsemane. The prophet was no doubt praying that the Spirit would be poured out. In fact the area above the Garden Tomb is the highest point of Mount Moriah 777 metres above sea level. Of course the editorâ €™s of John tell us that up to that time. The so-called â€˜guest roomâ€™ or â€˜large upper roomâ€™ was the sanctuary. the Spirit would be given after the Jesus of their story had risen. Also in Genesis 22 Abraham was about to offer Isaac on Mount Moriah but God stopped him and provided a lamb/ram. A remanent clue to what the prophet was proclaiming is in the anachronistic extant text of Jn. Our prophet had an authority comparable to that of any previous prophet of Israel.org/…/easter-04. symbolic of God pouring out the Spirit.
which was to be done on the Sunday after the Sabbath that falls in Passover week. What this means is that Christ rose from the dead on the Sunday after the Full Moon marking Passover. Christ rose from the dead on the eve of the day of the Firstfruits wave sheaf offering in the Temple. This was a time when the Spirit of God was expected. he could have quoted a text very applicable to his cause of proclaiming the Spirit . And the tomb is right beside Mount Moriah where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. ••••••• On the First Day of The Feast Geoff Hudson — UK (3/20/2008 5:12:42 PM) Rather than 'driving' out those that were buying and selling.8)." I liked it then and I still approve. The prophet's gripe would then not have been with those conducting business in the temple.asp 22/27 . NOT the day after the Passover as some Jews suppose based on an incorrect interpretation of Scripture. That day was the eighth day of The Feast and a Sabbath.39:27). Furthermore. but with the ineffectiveness of sacrificing animals as a means of cleansing sins. So there was no turning over tables of moneychangers or driving out people. Fits in with scripture in a much neater way I think. the Book of Esther in the Bible has an allegorical bib-arch.11. The prophet was to be arrested at the end of last great day of The Feast. a term used for the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths during September or October.org/…/easter-04. the Jewish priests looked to the Spring Equinox to correct their Lunar Calendar. It is good to get some refreshingly new thinking about subjects I have found fascinating since I was in seminary sixty years ago. and our prophet was in the mould of every other prophet before him. and is a Full Moon Celebration. He said much the same in his "Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography. Passover is determined using a Lunar calendar. The tradition of The Last Supper stems from the last great day of The Feast of Tabernacles. And as he drove the animals out. ••••••• Chilton's interpretation Johnn Shearman — Canada (3/20/2008 4:42:06 PM) Chilton's interpretation is very insightful. People had been been building booths to sleep in by spreading branches (Mk. ••••••• Re: Easter/Ishtar Helena Lehman — USA (3/20/2008 12:14:27 PM) Actually." The prophet's point was that animal sacrifice was not making Israel more moral or pure before God. Also. Israel was acting pure when it was not. but not entirely new. That does not mean that I accept his approach entirely. Thus the prophet was arrested at the end of that Sabbath on the first day of the week. and to determine when the Passover Moon was to be. but you have made Israel a house of sacrifice.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… person as a huge cistern and olive press were discovered just yards away from the tomb. just as the Christian churches use it to determine Easter! Incidentally. ••••••• The Feast Geoff Hudson — UK (3/20/2008 1:05:41 PM) The time was not Passover but was The Feast. any interpretation of scripture is provisional and must remain so so that more light may be shed on the faith we espouse. The prophet was not to be arrested during 'The Feast' (Mk. I feel the Church of the Holy Sepulchre wil prove to be another unproven Catholic relic. Christ died on the second of two Passover eves kept by differing sects of Judaism. After all. namely the animals to be sacrificed for sins. it is more likely that the prophet began driving out what was being bought and sold in the temple.14:1).something like: "is it not written: 'My Spirit will be poured out upon the house of Israel' (Ez.
Zechariah said. Purim and Passover by reading an article I just published at the American Chronicles news site which has links to my free PDF articles about this topic. On the cross. he was bruised because of our iniquities Is. You can find out much more about my views on Easter. from the bosom of the Father â€“ to visibly and personally show the world His life. in Jesus Christ. crushed and broke the heart of God (Gen. 14:41.and with every sin He is martyred. heartlessly. Strong word no. 6:9). They had lots of wisdom and knowledge . 20:18.Most High! ••••••• The Eucharistâ€”Exploring Its Origins Faan Oosthuizen — South Africa (3/20/2008 8:48:46 AM) Bruce Chilton's article sounds much like the opinion of the Scribes.12:10-14).another interesting angle to examine! Jesus as priest/king offering the blessings of God. we do to Him. the Feast of Purim. 7:19. the sinners. 21:33-46 in the parable of the farmers.T. 22-23. has fallen on Jesus Ps. tribe. Interestingly.org/…/easter-04. 69 & Rom. man and women by themselves (Zec. It is therefore not so surprising that Easter would share the name of Esther. through the Holy Spirit of grace and supplication.. martyred and killed Him by crucifixion. (â€œminâ€ in orig. 15:3. 44. 18:32-33. every nation. mankind. And our sins grieve and quench the Holy Spirit of God and of Jesus (Eph4:30. Jesus said what we do to the least. 21 & 23. 4480 (e)). but I don't want to let the details of scholarship get in the way of the contribution made here: that Jesus was making an offering consistent with his heritage yet challenging to the established practices within the Temple cultus. which celebrates Estherâ€™s role in Jewish history. Mark. we are his murderer and therefore also Jesusâ€™ murderer. the Scribes.com ••••••• Last Supper Rev. When Adam and Eve chose to listen to the snake rather than their Creator and loving Father. over and over (Ps. but they were all treated the same as the One who sent them and whose words they spoke. they wounded. Luk.com/articles/55863 Easter blessings.americanchronicle. For he shall bear their iniquities and He bare the sin of many Is.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… prophetic meaning that pertains directly to the Christian Church in relationship to the Great Tribulation and the Last Day.2:24. Dr. 53:5. Helena Lehman http://pillar-of-enoch. Paul says: â€œHe was delivered (to be killed) because of our offences /transgressionsâ€ (Gr. Then He handed Himself over into the hands of His children. He was and is still given into the hands of every man to do to Him what they choose . God through Jesus physically and openly displayed what mankind has been doing to Him through sins from the time of Adam and Eve. stoned or killed? Matt. but is rapidly rediscovering its Jewish roots. Gary Cecil — USA (3/20/2008 12:01:24 PM) I have been reading through the various comments on this article that serve to confirm our lack either of understanding or consensus on sacred matters such as the Supper. God will. 17:25. This is spiritual murder and before God it is the same as physical murder. Which one was not rejected. Chief priests and Pharisees to do to Him what they chose â€“ and they rejected. God repeatedly sent His prophets to call His children back to Him. 16:21. 53:11 & 12. Chief Priests and Pharisees in the time of Jesus. Finally God Himself came down to earth as Immanuel. his people. falls just two days before Easter this year. which was paganized. Hereâ€™s the link to it: http://www. John 1:11. 1Th 5:19). If we hate anyone. 9:22.. Hebrew is â€œbecause ofâ€ â€“ see Geseniusâ €™ Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the O. Isaiah said: But he was wounded because of our transgressions.asp 23/27 . grace and power and to speak His words to them. dia = because of) Rom. the woman who allegorically represents the modern Gentile Church. inconsiderately. love. cause us to look up to Him whom we have pierced and we will grieve and mourn bitterly because of what we have done to Him. crushed and pierced. Ever since then every sinner with every sin does the same â €“ mercilessly. Peter said: He bore our sins in His body on the tree 1Pet. patience. 69:20. David and Paul said: The insults with which we insulted God.but they failed to recognize (and accept) Him. 8:37-40. Ezek. Matt. I found it helpful in formulating a connection between Melchizedek's offering to Abram and the Supper . It is undeniably clear: Every man with every sin martyrs God and Jesus and is the bib-arch.4:24. 17:12. 6:5-6).
That is why he spoke the way he spoke.that our sin may stop. The blood of all the prophets and of Jesus will therefore be required from his hands. confess and demonstrate how our sins wounded and broke Him and how we shed His blood. The scapegoat bore the sins of the people into the wilderness and there it died a terrible death. And God does that. But He promised that Someone will crush the head of the serpent â€“ obviously in our hearts. Look at Jesus on the cross. That is what Jesus showed and demonstrated at the Eucharist. we can be forgiven and cleansed . Amen.asp 24/27 . free and deliver us from our sins by His blood. Everyone who denies that he. But if we acknowledge and confess that we. is guilty of the blood of all the prophets. that he stopped eating and drinking for three days and he was set to rather die than live with what he has done. And they were reminded of that every time they had to put on new skins again. love and consideration for or lies and deceptions of Satan are crushed and destroyed when we realize the Lamb of God is slain when we sin. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world â€“ ever since Adam and Eve He is slain Rev. He was so overwhelmed with grief and bitterness because of that. He stopped eating and was ready to die because of that.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… murderer of Jesus Christ. He promised by covenant that our sins will be forgiven and He will wash. That is why they praised Him and sang in Rev.â€ Graciously. 16) signified to the Jews exactly the same truth. and the scapegoat (Azazel) (Lev. No sin is excusable or may be overlooked because the Lamb of God bears it. have broken the body and spilled the blood of the prophets and of Jesus and if we repent from all sins. Paul also received this great light when he was told that he was all along persecuting Jesus. The sacrificial lambs in the O.â€ That is how the devil is overcome â €“ by the blood of the Lamb! Thanks and glory to God. we are guilty of His body and blood. John the Baptist saw and recognized this Lamb of God that bore the sins of the world. ••••••• Easter/Ishtar Charles McDerment — USA (3/20/2008 5:30:51 AM) bib-arch. peri = because of and as a quotation from Is.â€ Ps. He can even make a stone a child to bear the acceptable fruit. have I sinned. proves thereby that he is a child of those who killed them. 53:5 and in line with all the abovementioned scriptures). David realized and experienced the same when he was told that the child born from Uriahâ€™s wife will die because of his sins.org/…/easter-04. Later he said: â€œAgainst thee. and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father. the Messiah. confessed his great sin and pleaded for mercy and forgiveness â€“ and God heard him and sent Ananias to help him. and washed / freed / cleansed / delivered us from our sins in his own blood. thee only. Those who realized it pointed to what their sins did to God and the Messiah â€“ was in the same way as us forgiven and washed by the blood of the Lamb. All excuses. cleanse and deliver us with His blood 1John1:7-9. And it is a covenant and testament in His blood â€“ if we continue in sin (or uses the bread and wine unworthily). which is shed because of many for the remission / forgiveness / deliverance / release (Gr. If we confess and repent from our sins He will forgive. God demonstrated it before the eyes of Adam and Eve when He tore apart and pealed the goatsâ€™ skin and dressed their nakedness. admit and confess your guilt of His death and you will be cured of the sicknesses caused by the bites of the serpents. through our sins. because of his sins. The brazen serpent of Moses in the wilderness confirmed this message. and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest. cleanse. So this is the true meaning and origin of the Eucharist. We made and caused His wounds through our sins. from Abel to Zechariah and of Jesus. If you do not bear good fruit. you will be cast into everlasting fire. 13:8. If we admit and confess with deep bitterness and remorse what our sins did to Him and if we repent from our sins. He constantly prayed. (Gr. 51. Then at the Eucharist we take the bread and break it and pour the wine and drink it and so remember and signify His death until He comes. He attacked even kings and said to the religious people: â€œDo not even think to call yourself a child if God if you do not bear fruit worthy of repentance. There is therefore much hope for me and all of us. He will thoroughly purge his floor. admit. Faan Oosthuizen. through his sins against the believers. Aphesis) of sins. Every time we break the bread and pour the wine. Huper / alt. Most Jews knew everything about the sacrifice but did not realize what it truly signified and meant and they kept on sinning â€“ and God hated their sacrifices. to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. We all broke His body and spilled His blood. 1: â €œUnto Him that loved us.T. â€œFor this is my blood of the new testament. we remember.
There are but a few days of remembrance ordinated by God through His holy words. To seek purity and forgiveness by merely repenting and asking for it.D. forget what he taught concerning traditions of men and ordinances of God. His compassion. this date is unnecessary.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… Why is it that the majority of those professing Christ as their savior. Baptism makes bathing scremental. It seems that the death and resurrection of the Christ were all in the time frame of Passover which is to a specific date and not some day derived by the full moon's relationship to the Spring equinox. I rose from the tomb! Yes. then the book of Mark must be dated after 70 A. and if Luke. why do they not mention the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple? ••••••• bib-arch. but since our Lord could predict the future. truly I am risen! Â©Constance Vanides April 7.asp 25/27 .Godcares. then Mark must be even earlier. sent Me to take it all. to suffer on the cross and die for you. ••••••• Passover snakesup — USA (3/19/2008 10:07:20 PM) If synoptic gospels were not written until after 71AD. covered with My blood. I touched lives of all who sought Me. the companion volume. In fact." Ryrie. 2007 www. The last supper mekes eating and drinking sacred.D. many scholars believe that Mark was not written until after Peter had died. Thanks. But death could not hold Me. However. since Luke apparently used Mark in writing his gospel. i. This points to a date in the 50's for Mark.e. I took all your sins. preceded it.org ••••••• North Phillip — USA (3/19/2008 10:54:29 PM) I vividly remember reading this article several yrs ago as it finally opened up plausable reasoning behind the eucharist. knowing the evil in menâ€™s hearts.org/…/easter-04. I showed you all this and brought you out of prison walls of your own making.. because of 13:2. the raising of the mundane to the sacred. USA (3/19/2008 11:47:15 PM) Jesus speaks to us today: RESURRECTION I lived and walked among you.after 67 but before 70. I think Jesus sought to remove the priesthood as the intersessors for the people and allow them to access God directly. if Acts must be dated about 61 A. The group meal reminds us of this opprotunity. His love and care in everything I did. What gives? ••••••• Jerusalem John Morgan — USA (3/20/2008 12:10:01 AM) ••••••• JESUS CRUCIFIED AND RESURRECTED Constance Vanides — California. I showed you of My Father. which is definitely a pagan celebration. bringing you out of the darkness into My glorious light! My Father. Dr Chilton your article opened up the eucharist for me and allowed me to participate in that simple sacrement once again. but men have always added their touch and slant on these things. ••••••• Jesus article Barry — (3/19/2008 10:26:22 PM) "If one denies the phenomenon of predictive prophesy. Simple sacraments..
the writing dates of all those gospels have been altered by experts one way or the other for a long time. the period in the desert. Will we ever learn to realize that the environment of infant Christianity was rooted in polytheistic superstition and foolery? ••••••• gospels R. but it is accepted that Mark is the earliest and John the latest. but. (Schafer/Jewish Encyclopedia) ••••••• response to Bill Silverman Linda Sheean — USA (3/19/2008 8:38:08 PM) Bill. The destruction of the Temple by the Romans was such a stupendous. represents the Eucharistic meal as a celebration of the Jewish Berakoth. Bruce. The Pharisees treated Jesus as an idolater and a blasphemer of an am ha-aretz cult. Linda Sheean ••••••• Eucharist Jim Rigas — (3/19/2008 5:56:57 PM) The earliest Jewish Christian teaching we have. The Gospels were originally written in Hebrew and the entire New Testament was written before the destruction of the Temple. The writers of the Gospels were not witnesses to any of the events. Hatcher — (3/19/2008 5:26:52 PM) It is doubtful that any of the gospels or letters were written after 70 AD.. Bruce Chilton's article is a delight of reason. Apollos gave us the superior analysis two thousand years ago in his Epistle to the Hebrews. but they were good writers for their times.asp 26/27 .the circumstances of his birth.org/…/easter-04. (Jewish Encyclopedia) 3. ••••••• LAST SUPPER R. sine there was nobody AWAKE." I believe that we should go back to Paul for the origin of the Eucharistic phrases (1 Cor. 1. The praise was given for "the fruit of the vine.3/21/2010 What Really Happened at Gethsemane… What Really Happoened at Gethsemane R N Hall — Australia (3/19/2008 9:49:47 PM) It has always been a mystery to me how the words of Jesus could possibly have been reported including his prayer for removal of 'the cup'. life-altering catastrophe for the Jews that it is inconcievable that the Gospel writers and Paul would bib-arch. where he was alone. Lynn Long — USA (3/19/2008 5:29:30 PM) I am 67 years old and have passionately sought the TRUTH of our Faith since before the 1st grade. Most of the events in Jesus' life were not recorded by eyewitnsses . It precedes the gospels.. this much I have concluded. the Didache. 11:23). and was written by someone well-versed in pagan symbolism. My family are fundamentalists and would be appalled by his ideas. ••••••• The Eucharist--Exploring Its Origins Larry Chasteen — (3/19/2008 9:03:37 PM) Nice try. (Robinson/Carmignac/Tresmontant/Jewish Encyclopedia) 2.
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