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DAVID KRECH, SWORN. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CARTER: lr. Krech, what is your occupation? As I am ct present on leave from the University of Califomia as visiting professor of social peychology et Harvard Univereity. @ How long have you boon associate professor? fe T have been doing research and teaching psychology since 1933. @ What 10 your educational background? what degrees do you hold? Ay I have a Master of arts degree from New York Unt Payohology fron the University of California, reityy a Ph. De in @ Have you published any books or articles? As quite @ nunbe: end three or four books about 40 sotentific articles in psychological journals What professional societies do you belong to? As I one follow of the american Peychologicsl association, ant President of the Divisions of the American Psychological Association. I an a’neuber of the American Association for the Advenconent of Science, ant a menber of the anericen ‘Association of University Professors, and e member of Signa Pet, the honorary sctentific society of the United stat Q. Mow, ir Krech, 1s the exanination of legal segregation in education and its effect upon the individuel e proper function of a sociel psychologist? As It 19 one of the most stenificant problens which social peychologis have dealt with and one of the books that I refer to devotes as many as two chapters to that very problem, Tt is 9 problen which has taken the attention of research psychologists, perheps that one problem more so than any other single problem of our social behavior. @ Have you studied the problen? A+ Well, as I pointed out, since I devoted about two chapters of our book, T have spent quite » good deal of tine studying that problen. Qs ow Mr, Kroch, agoune that segregated public schools are required by Law for Negroes, have you forned any opinion as to what effect this situation will have upon the Negro ehila? As Vory definite, and if T may say considered opinion, Q WiLL you Kindly say whet that opinion is and on whet you base tt? ‘As My opinion te,that legel svgregation of education ts probably the single, ost inportant factor/iifeak haraful effect on the exotionsl, physical and finan- cfal status of the Negro child, end may I also say, it reaiite ina harmful effect fon the white child, Qs Would you explain ina little more detail thie harmful effect thet you describe, emotionally, finnetal end phpaical. 2 sarnel’ guts the reason why T make such a statement, and I realize it ts a iether strong statonent, that in ny opinion legal segregation which involves (2) a Jagal definttion of an individual in terms of races and involves a evatensny of same of Ris rights in relation to race, 1s the most slenificent factor to Frond, ‘encourage end enhance racial prejudice and racial segregation of ali kia er” me feason for that peychologically is prinarily this: No one, unless he 1a mentally diseased, no one can long maintain any attitude or beltef unless there are sone objective supports for that belief. We delieve, for exmple, that there re ¢ see We would not long continue to believe that thers are trees If we never ease to Legal segregation, because it 1s legal, because it is obvious to ereryoeey atves ‘what we call in our lingo environmental support for the belief thet feproes¢are in sone way different from and inferior to white people, end that in turn’ cf cous supports and strengthens beliefs of reciel differences, of rastel inferiorite t would say that legal segregation is both an effect, a consequence of racial sejo- ice, and in turn a cause of continuod racial prefedice, and insofar eo rectal Rojudice has these haraful effects on the personality of the individuals, on his ability to cam « livelihood, even on hie ability to Feceive adequate aedicel attention, T door at le ion as an extronely important contri but Factors lay Tvadd" sue Sore Sint, ‘Engi! Soehogution of Pea hes eT esa, starts this process of differentiating the logro fron the waite at @ nest crucial age, children, when they are beginning to forn their views of the worl’, teviesing to form their perceptions of people, at that very eruclal age they ere taneoiarens Put into the situation which Genands of then, legally, practically, that thay Hegroes a2 sonehow of a different group, aifferent being, then whites. Yor yboo Feasons and many others, I tage ay stevenent, & Theoe injuries thet you say cone from legal segregation, does the child grow out of then? Do you think they will be enduring, or is it merely @ sort of temporary thing that he can shake off? Az It 19 ny opinion that except in rare cases, a child who hes for 10 or 12 years lived in a community where legal segregation is precticed, furthermore, in 4 community whore other Peliefs and attitudes support raciel discrimination, it is ny belief that such a child will probably never recover from whatever harafal effect racial prejudice and discrinination can wreak. gr Ur. Kroch, assume enother situation, assume that in segregated public gehools to which Negroes attend are inferior to white schools, will educetion in hat situation have any adverse effect on the Negro child? Ac Very definitely. Psychologists have a long tine ago given up the dotion that what we call intelligence, I. q., 1s independent of the education and of the experiences of the individual, ‘and an'tnedequate oducation reflects iteelt, and we have impirical data to substantiate this, reflects itself ina lowered f. Qe, in lowered ability to cope with the problems of life. I might point out that ’T do pot hold with sone people who suggest that the white man, who is prejudiced egeinst fhe Negro, has no cause to be so prejudiced, I would eay that most white people have cause to be prejudiced against the Negro, because the Negro in most cases 19 indeed inferior to the white man, because the white man has rede himself through the practice of legal segregation. There is no paychologist that T Know of who would maintain thet there is any biological, fundanental difference between. the t wo groupe of people, but through the practice of inadequate education, that waa a Rypothetical situation thet you gave me, as a consequence of inatequate education we build into the Negro the very characteristic, not only intellectual, but ales personality characteristics, which we then use to justify pre judice, Ross MWMINATION BY MR. FICC: Ge bere were you Dorm? ‘Av Poland. And at what age 41d you cone to this country? As three @ tere 414 you 1ive when you cane here? ‘As New Britton, connecticut. Qs And then where? celifomiar as Az, Now I slso lived in New York city, Chicago, colorado, Pennsylvania — Titaught at those places, and California, and the last year I was Visiting professor Of social peychology at Oslo University in Normey. Qe Have you 7 Lived in one of the stites whion “has legal segregation? As Only when T was taking my be: © training in the united states amy. Q+ And what stete was thet? As Florida. Q And have you ever made any study on this problen we are discussing in any State which has legal segregation? Ae Tam sorry T didn't hear the question, Have you over made a study of thts problen wo have been discussing in a State which has legal segregation? 4 practical study? 4s AS a man who 1s primarily devoted to the science of paychology, I think I am fmnilier with perhaps every study that has been mide in thie areas’ I base ay conclusions not on ay own studies obviously but on the field of peychology. ‘You base your opinion not on your own practical investigation of the problen but on the sun total of the reading which you have done on the study which you have nade, ‘As Reading and research, that is right. Bit no prectioal research in a state which has legal segregation? ‘As ALL rosoareh 4s practical. ‘JUDGE PARKER: Answer the question. Q Tan telling about, have you? As I myself, no, I haven't, MRS, HELEN TRAGER, SWORN, DIRBOT EXAMINATION BY UR. CARTER: @ Mrs, Trager, what is your occupation? As Iena teacher. I an a lecturer at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, Now York, ani consultant in curricula at Vassar. Qs How long have you held this positions A. Just this year. At the presont tine I am aleo a consultant in curriculum ‘and bunen relation to a special project aponsored by Yale Univeroity and the Bureau of Intercultural Biucation tn the rural schools of connecticut. @ What other teaching experience have you had? ‘Ay I have tought in the elementary school, both public and private. 1 have boon educational consultant to city schools in New York, Philadelphia, Denver, Golorado, San Diego, California, Detroit, lichigan. I have been lecturer and eroup loader of workshops for teachers and administrators in the field of elenentary education and human relations education at Columbia University Teacherabollegs, ot the University of Minnesota, at the University of Utah, at Now York University, end San Diego college. @ Would you describe your educational background briefly for us. A, I am e graduate of the New York Training school for Teachers, from which I received a diplona toteach in elementary schools. I have a bachelor of science, New York University, and a Master of arte from the sene University. 1+ Have you published any books or articles? @