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Speaker 1: Color me shocked.

Speaker 2: Stay tuned to By Any Means Necessary five days a week here on Radio Sputnik.
Fault lines.

Lee Stranahan: We are back. Fault Lines with Nixon and Stranahan, 105.5 FM, AM 1390, in
Washington DC and of course all over the internet. If you miss an episode, you
can check us out on Spreaker, on Stitcher, on the Apple Podcast app, Spotify,
iHeartRadio and any place great podcasts are curated.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, joining us now on the line is member of the Ukrainian Parliament,
journalist Serhiy Leshchenko. Good morning, Serhiy. How you doing?

Serhiy L.: Good afternoon, Lee. I am in Kiev now, so we have about 2:00 PM now.

Lee Stranahan: About 2:00 PM, that's right.

Serhiy L.: I'm doing well, thank you.

Lee Stranahan: It's very early here. Now, once again, I really appreciate you coming on the
show. I've talked about you for a couple years, but the other night ... So, let's go
over this a little bit. We're not going to ... Obviously, this is going to be some
stuff we don't agree on, but I really don't want to focus on that this morning.
Let's let it just be said that we-

Serhiy L.: Yeah. Please go ahead with the questions. It's no problem. All people have
different points of view on different topics.

Lee Stranahan: No, that's right.

Garland N.: Right. In fact, one of the things we do here on the show, you know, Lee is a
more conservative on the right, I'm more progressive liberal on the left, so
that's what we do.

Lee Stranahan: Yeah.

Garland N.: We do, you know? We're glad, certainly happy to have you on.

Lee Stranahan: Let's talk about this. First off, just for people to understand the dynamics of the
situation. A lot of people probably heard about you, really, the first time, when
Rudy Giuliani was talking about you on Fox News. That's the primary thing I
want you to be able to address this morning.

Lee Stranahan: Let's just set this up a little bit. After the Maidan revolution, the Revolution of
Dignity in 2014, right, Petro Poroshenko came in. I think we can agree that
Poroshenko coming in did not ... was not awesome. He was not great. He was

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not popular, and it did not work out particularly well for the people of the
Ukraine. Is that your feeling as well?

Serhiy L.: Yeah. Ukrainian people did not vote for him for the second term. He finished his
presidency with a result about 20 something percent. So, it means that he lost
credibility of Ukrainians, because he was president who was very controversial.
He declared positive things, integration toward European institutions, fight
against corruption, and more fair and more relevant society.

Serhiy L.: But, in reality he was focused else on personal issues. Personal enrichment,
nepotism and building the coalition of corrupt political stakeholders. Of course,
Ukraine achieved some positive results under the Poroshenko presidency. I
don't want to describe everything in dark colors.

Lee Stranahan: Right.

Serhiy L.: But, a lot of positive things also were achieved as a combination of efforts from
different sides. Civil society in Ukraine is very vibrant. Investigative journalism is
one of the most powerful in the Eastern Europe. Our school of investigative
journalists is very good. Then we have number of reformers inside the
government and parliament who paid a lot of efforts to make reform process

Serhiy L.: Poroshenko under this pressure ... And, also the ... Some supports from abroad.
From international MITRE fund, who put necessary reforms as a conditionalities
and means of support of international community. Ukraine was country moving
forward, but a little bit slower than we expected.

Serhiy L.: The personality of Poroshenko also very controversial because he was an
oligarch on the very top level who won elections and felt strong, with a big
credit of support from society. But, unfortunately he spent so many ... Let's say
so many years trying to enrich himself from the politic that in the position of
president he was also involved in corrupt schemes. Now we have the result
from the screen.

Garland N.: You know, of course one of the issues before 2014 was the issue of the direction
that Ukraine was going to take regarding finances and economics. Certainly, I
think some of the issues has been that the country's struggled economically.
How much of an issue do you think that was in you know affecting the election
and do you ... What ... Do you think it could be ... The economic problems in
Ukraine can be turned around?

Serhiy L.: Ukraine's slowly, but growing. We would like to come through to double, to
triple our economic growth dynamic. For this we need strong economic reform
program and to limit influence of the oligarch on the Ukrainian politics. Because
oligarch system, it does not allow Ukraine to be dynamic economy. They enrich

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themself through the politics. They built monopoly on the energy market, on
the agricultural market, on different markets.

Serhiy L.: And, Poroshenko instead to be status quo breaker, he decided to keep the
status quo and to find ... Not even compromise, but conspiracy with some
oligarchs. Especially in the energy market or public procurement and
unfortunately we lost a good chance for reshuffle of the whole political system
five years ago.

Serhiy L.: But, still we are growing, growing, growing sets of democratic values and
[inaudible 00:05:48] economy. A little bit slower than we expected, but we still
... Dynamic is positive.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, now, so, I want to set that up to talk about the issue that you wanted to
talk about. I wanted to make sure you're able to get your point out. Because
what happened was, about a month and a half ago I would say, John Solomon, a
reporter at The Hill here, who is a frequent guest on Fox News began reporting
on this Ukraine DNC story a little bit. I'd been talking about it for two years, but
he'd been ... He started to report on it. His source was a guy ... And, this is
confusing to some people because, I'll be honest, Ukrainian names throw off
Americans because there's lots of Shenkos and Chenkos, right?

Serhiy L.: Yeah.

Lee Stranahan: By the way pronounce your first name, because I've seen it “Serhiy” and
“Sergiy.” Pronounce your first name.

Serhiy L.: My name is “Sergiy.”

Lee Stranahan: “Sergiy,” okay. Forgive me for getting that wrong. Serhiy Leshchenko, but the
guy who's the prosecutor general is a guy named Lutsenko, right?

Serhiy L.: Yeah. Correct, correct.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, so I want to be clear. We're talking to Serhiy Leshchenko ...

Serhiy L.: Correct.

Lee Stranahan: ... but Solomon started quoting this guy Lutsenko. Now, Lutsenko ...

Serhiy L.: Yeah.

Lee Stranahan: So, first off, who is he and how did he get into office?

Serhiy L.: Mr. Lutsenko, he's a politician and he's a member of Poroshenko family. He was
appointed as a prosecutor general three years ago. The problem of that he's a

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politician and he has no legal education. So, this is quite curious for the
conscience of the stable democratic institutions like US. But, I believe it's not
really good choice for Ukraine as well. Because, to be prosecutor general, you
have to understand how the system works in sense of the law, in sense of the
values, in sense of the old instruments which prosecutor has in his hands.

Serhiy L.: So, I believe he misread your establishment, especially people who very close to
President Trump. Because, we had [inaudible 00:08:09] presidential elections a
few weeks ago. The new elected president announced that ... announced that
he wants to replace prosecutor general.

Lee Stranahan: Right, okay. So, Lutsenko ... Again, when you say part of the Poroshenko family,
they actually ... I think he's his god ... the godfather to his children or something.
Is that correct? I mean, they're very close.

Serhiy L.: Yes, they are very close. Poroshenko made some efforts to appoint Mr.
Lutsenko as a prosecutor general because he changed the legislation to open
the rule for prosecutor general without legal education to be on this position.

Lee Stranahan: Now, okay. Let me make sure I understand this, too. Because, the other thing
that John Solomon at The Hill's reported is that Joe Biden ... And there's video of
this, so we know this happened. Joe Biden has bragged that he threatened to
withhold an IMF loan from Ukraine if Poroshenko did not place ... replace the
prosecutor general Shokin at the time.

Serhiy L.: It was [crosstalk 00:09:23]

Lee Stranahan: He brought in Lutsenko.

Serhiy L.: It's old.

Lee Stranahan: What's that?

Serhiy L.: It was not a secret at all in Ukraine. Everybody was aware about it that IMF and
American government, they have conditionalities for providing Ukraine financial
support in the difficult situation. I find this consensus quite reliable because if
your taxpayers pay money to Ukraine, you should be guaranteed that we have
legal system and anti-corruption system which protect this money can be stolen
by Ukrainian crooks.

Serhiy L.: Unfortunately, but the Ukrainian prosecutors general under Poroshenko
presidency were not a fair persons. Not only Mr. Shokin but also Mr. Lutsenko
and his predecessor Mr. Yarema, all of them they more or less involved in
different schemes of protection by, or protection of different crooks or

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Serhiy L.: And they ... During this four years and half, almost five years, of our parliament,
I remember that we were very much eager to change our prosecutor general.
Not only Mr. Lutsenko, but also Mr. Shokin. I signed the petition to fire Mr.
Shokin and there were almost majority of signatures for firing Mr. Shokin. So,
the role of Mr. Biden was not so crucial because in Ukrainian society it was a
consensus that Mr. Shokin has to go.

Serhiy L.: He had to go because he had very small credibility of society. He was not able to
investigate big corrupt schemes of current president and his entourage, and of
previous president and his entourage. I know this from inside. For instance, I
was MP who made public anti-corruption investigation about Mr. [Martin
Koranaza 00:11:22], Ukrainian crook and member of parliament.

Serhiy L.: And Mr. Shokin ignored the request from Switzerland to provide documents for
this investigation, or Mr. Shokin also did not provide documents for Austrian
anti-corruption agency to investigate head of presidential administration of Mr.
Poroshenko and Mr. [Moshkin 00:11:45].

Lee Stranahan: So you're saying Shokin was bad, but ... And that's the same thing ...

Serhiy L.: He was bad and we had consensus in Ukraine that he has to go.

Lee Stranahan: That's right. And I've heard the same thing.

Serhiy L.: [crosstalk 00:11:58] We signed even ... We signed... We even collected
signatures in Ukrainian Parliament to put this issue on the parliamentary
agenda. We were looking for 150 signatures of MPs for this and we collected
about 125, so almost how much we needed.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, so ...

Serhiy L.: And, it was a not a Mr. Biden pressure, but the pressure of civil society. I
participated number of anti-corruption protest in the front of the prosecutor
office and then Mr. Saakashvili who was a former Georgian president. Mr.
Saakashvili, maybe you familiar with this person?

Lee Stranahan: Yes, yes.

Serhiy L.: Former Georgian president who was governor of Ukrainian Odessa region and
who took number of his informants inside the government. They were also very
vocal to fire Mr. Shokin because Mr. Shokin backed corrupt prosecutors. It was a
huge scandal in Ukraine called diamond prosecutors.

Serhiy L.: Why diamond? Because, during the search some diamonds were found out in
the apartment of this prosecutors. They were very close friends of Mr. Shokin
and he did not fire them. He protected them. And, Mr. Poroshenko the

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president was backing Mr. Shokin. So, in Ukraine at the time it was being
[inaudible 00:13:21] of let's say desire of changes. Including the resignation of
Mr. Shokin.

Lee Stranahan: Now the way John Solomon at The Hill's pointed out, when you put up Lutsenko
though, he was trying to make it appear ... And. I'm a ... I'm not a fan of Joe
Biden, but he was trying to make it appear as though Joe Biden had gotten
Shokin out in order to stop an investigation into Joe Biden.

Lee Stranahan: But, is it true that in fact the person who shut down the investigation was
Lutsenko, John Solomon's source? The person who shut down the investigation,
who closed it, on Joe Biden's son and Burisma, that person, that was actually
Lutsenko, correct?

Serhiy L.: Correct, correct. Yes. This is a part of misleading campaign which were
constructed by our current prosecutor general, Mr. Lutsenko. Because, Mr.
Lutsenko doesn't want to lose his position after presidential elections, and to
keep this position he decided to construct this conspiracy theory. Maybe some
facts can be correct, but a lot of rogue facts.

Serhiy L.: In this conspiracy theory, he's goal was to find loyalty of Mr. Giuliani, with a deal
to build a bridge to Mr. US president Donald Trump to protect him on this
position. To construct this theory and to present himself as the main prosecutor
who's able to investigate this Biden case and so on and so forth.

Garland N.: So, we know that after Maidan that Joe Biden was doing a lot of work in
Ukraine. You know there are people who have referred to him as kind of like a
viceroy as it were. How much power did Vice President Biden have in Ukraine
and how much was he able to actually affect politics after Maidan when his
influence was at its peak?

Serhiy L.: You know before this scandal started in Ukraine we've had very positive opinion
about Mr. Biden because he was backing reformers. He was backing reform
process. He was the person who stopped bloodshed on Maidan during the
Revolution of Dignity when he called many times to Mr. Yanukovych. When he
sent his team, whereas I remember it was Deputy Secretary of State to be
present on Maidan and to make personal appeal what is going on here.

Serhiy L.: Believe me in Ukraine it was not so simplified as it was described by some
American journalists who were mislead and misinformed by some people like
Mr. Lutsenko, who doesn't want to leave power. Because, of course they're ...
It's maybe unusual for Americans to listen that Vice President of US played
some role here, but in Ukraine to push reform process we had to construct the

Serhiy L.: I was the person who was open to saying that we need this system of support
from abroad. To receive money from IMF, the Ukraine had to implement reform
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agenda like construction of anti-corruption infrastructure and anti-corruption

agencies. To establish system of transparent public procurement to save money
of Ukrainian taxpayers and American taxpayers as well, because money from
IMF is money from US as well.

Serhiy L.: To build that transparent system of parliamentary elections, and unfortunately
current president Poroshenko was very poor with implementation of this reform
agenda. To achieve a lot in anti-monopoly and anti-trust system...
unfortunately, as well, Mr. Poroshenko was not able to build this transparent
system of anti-monopoly.

Serhiy L.: Unfortunately for Mr. Lutsenko, the prosecutor general who is now looking for
loyalty of Mr. Giuliani, he did not stop the monopolization on the energy
market, on the different markets here in Ukraine. The situation is much more
complicated than it is presented in Washington DC.

Serhiy L.: My opinion that we should be based on facts. If you look on the facts which
were presented by Mr. Lutsenko to Rudy Giuliani, these facts are not based on
the real situation what happened here. We can discuss the ... Some non-paper
memos, which Mr. Lutsenko prepared and sent to Mr. Giuliani in the frame of
this conspiracy theory if you want.

Lee Stranahan: Yeah, and that's what I want to get into, so we got to take a short one minute
break just in a couple minutes here. But, this is the set up for this, which is Rudy
Giuliani went on Fox News. He was planning a trip to Ukraine and among the
people he was ... Among the people Giuliani was probably going to meet with is
you, correct?

Serhiy L.: Yes. He mentioned my name. I met with Mr. Giuliani a few years ago when he
was at the Kiev and had a meeting with Ukrainian reformers. When he had the
meeting with leadership of Ukraine, including Prime Minister and so on, he met
me. Maybe he did not remember me because it was like bunch of people
around him in Kiev and he mentioned my name because he was misled,
unfortunately again by prosecutor general.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, so let's ...

Serhiy L.: Mr. Giuliani for NABU, he declared his statements which were not based on the
real facts.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, Mr. Lutshenko, hang on one sec. We're about to go ... We're about to hit
a break here. I want to make sure that we're able to get that break, then we'll
come back and we'll talk about it. Because, as you say, Rudy Giuliani, you saw
this, right Garland?

Garland N.: Yep, he mentioned your name, Mr. Lutshenko and he talked about what was
going on in surrounding the president. So, we'll get back to that...
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Lee Stranahan: Giuliani went so far as being said he was set up by Mr. Leshchenko. He's going
to respond to that right after this short break. You're listening to Fault Lines
with Nixon and Stranahan.

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Female: Shooting from the lip.

Male: We're taking no prisoners here. Real opinions for real people. Now where we
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Speaker 2: Fault lines.

Lee Stranahan: We are back. Fault Lines with Nixon and Stranahan 105.5 FM AM 1390 here in
Washington. We are joined on the phone by Serhiy Leshchenko, the Member of
Parliament, journalist, activist, and once again we're very honored to have him
on the show because he's going to ...

Lee Stranahan: Now, let's talk about this situation that Rudy Giuliani went on TV last week and
said he was ... Now, again, you're saying he was misled by Lutsenko. But, he
went on Fox News and he said he was canceling his trip to Ukraine because he
was being set up. He said you were setting him up. That's what Rudy Giuliani

Lee Stranahan: Now I know that you, almost immediately, within 24 hours or so, took to
Twitter. That's how you and I ended up talking. I found you to be very ... You
were open to answering questions. I want you to say in your own words what
you think happened. You think Rudy Giuliani's been misled by Lutsenko,

Serhiy L.: Yeah, correct. I appreciate you that you decided to talk because I send a request
to Fox News, also to provide my information, my point of view, and
unfortunately there is no reply from them.

Lee Stranahan: I think that's important because you're not nobody, you're an important person
in Ukrainian politics. You're well known. You're not just somebody out of the

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blue. And, you're saying Fox News has not even gotten back to you about
appearing to answer the allegations that Rudy Giuliani made, correct?

Serhiy L.: Yeah, correct.

Garland N.: Now one of the allegations that was made ... One of the things that he said was,
and I'm sure you're familiar with it ... He said the new president is surrounded
by enemies of President Trump, and of course particularly he named you. And
so, I guess it's obvious now that there's that feeling there which, I'm sure is
uncomfortable when Ukraine ... You know, being between a country as
powerful as the United States on one side and Russia on the other side has to be
uncomfortable. Talk about that, about how it felt and how you feel about the
comments that Rudy Giuliani made regarding the people surrounding the new

Serhiy L.: So, I can say only what I said before. That unfortunately it was misinformation
from Ukrainian side, not only about me but also about facts, what is going on
here in Ukraine. If we talking about my role, I'm anti-corruption journalist in my
past. I made a lot of efforts to make Ukraine transparent reform oriented on
European values country and to fight against corruption.

Serhiy L.: If you talking about information provided by Ukrainian prosecutor general to
Mr. Giuliani, we can find a lot of curious facts starting from that point that the ...
Mr. Biden, by the theory of prosecutor general office of Ukraine, promised to
help Ukrainian president Poroshenko to establish communication with President
Trump just after elections in 2017.

Serhiy L.: I know that you, better than me, understand that it's not a real fact because
President Trump has his own channels to establish cooperation, relations and
communications with leaders all over the world. He doesn't need former vice
president to establish such contacts. But, it is what the information put by
prosecutor general office to the non-paper memos which were sent to Mr.

Serhiy L.: If we talking about my personal ... My personality, Mr. Giuliani said that I'm
convicted person, but of course Mr. Giuliani does not know a lot what is going
on. I was in administrative court by one of the crooked MPs who is a friend of
prosecutor general. This person who made the claim to the administrative court
... Administrative court made the decision, but I went to appeal court and for
today there is no decision at all.

Serhiy L.: That is a fact that the black ledger is a fake which was said by Mr. Giuliani. But,
in Ukraine they'll ... A lot of expertises also contacted their prosecutors and they
proved that black ledger is real document. American judicial system sent it to
Mr. Manafort because of the tax evasion, and information about this tax
evasion was mentioned in this black ledger. Special records of former President

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Yanukovych which were hand written document ... Which was a hand written
document found in his office four and a half years ago.

Lee Stranahan: Now, you've talked about this too. So, there's a few things to unpack there. First
off, the ... And, I've talked about this on the show before. Both the New York
Times, Radio Free Europe, and so on said that you were convicted along with
the head of NABU, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine back in
December. You're saying that those reports in the New York Times and Radio
Free Europe were misleading, correct?

Serhiy L.: Yeah, it was decision of Ukrainian administrative court. I was sued by crooked
member of parliament who is a close friend of prosecutor general. It was
administrative court decision in the first instance I went to appeal court. For
today there is no decision because appeal court stopped the decision which
we're talking about a few seconds ago.

Serhiy L.: Today there is no judicial ... there is no judicial decision about my conviction at
all. Administrative court is not the court for the criminal investigation. It's a
court for found fact, which is under like say protest of some people. This court is
not reliable court to have any ... Let's say any discussion about these facts,
because our Supreme Court even made special proclamation not to allow ... Not
to allow, let's say, people to sue separate MPs.

Serhiy L.: You can sue only parliament as it is, but not the separate MPs. But this ... The
decision of the court, it happened because I believe the whole story was pre-
scripted, and it happened because it was the part of the conspiracy, which were
constructed by prosecutor general for keeping his position after the presidential

Lee Stranahan: Now, also, I'm going to be clear too. NABU, the National Association ... National
Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine. The FBI has an office there, correct?

Serhiy L.: They have agreement about a reform process ... Let's say ... As I know, again,
because I'm member of parliament, I'm not member of NABU. NABU is
independent law enforcement agency.

Lee Stranahan: Right.

Serhiy L.: I'm member of parliament. As I know, they have agreement, official agreement,
signed openly about cooperation, information exchange, experience and
support, and so on. They have people here in Ukraine who work on this
program. Which were, again, officially signed from Ukrainian side by NABU and
for American side by FBI.

Lee Stranahan: You pointed out when we were talking to you the other night publicly, that the
information about Manafort from the black ledger did not come from you, it

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came from NABU, correct? It came out from NABU first and then you did a press
conference, but it initially came from NABU. Am I correct in that?

Serhiy L.: Yeah, NABU made it public one day before my press conference.

Lee Stranahan: Okay. Now, do you think, knowing what you know, as a member of parliament
and as a journalist, is there any way NABU releasing that information about Paul
Manafort was not approved by either Lutsenko, Poroshenko and the FBI. They
must've known. The FBI must have been informed. If NABU is going to be
releasing something like that, the FBI must've know about it, and Poroshenko,

Serhiy L.: I understand your interest but unfortunately I have no idea about this. I'm
member of parliament, I'm public figure. I'm former journalist. I'm the person
who is working in public ... Let's say in public sphere. I don't know about the
relations, the initiations or agreements constructed under the closed doors.

Serhiy L.: But, if we look on the calendar we see that the first source about black ledger
was American newspaper New York Times. As they know, this same information
was trying to prepare journalists from British newspaper called Times. It was
about the begin of August 2014. The first article was published 14 of August.
About 18 of August 2014 anti-corruption bureau ...

Lee Stranahan: Yeah, go ...

Garland N.: Did we lose him?

Lee Stranahan: Mr. Leshchenko?

Serhiy L.: ... request [crosstalk 00:30:02] ...

Lee Stranahan: Wait ... I'm sorry. You cut out [crosstalk 00:30:04] Wait, wait. Hang on one
second. You cut out there. So, you're saying at the 18th of August ... because
you're right. And, the 14th of August the New York Times story came out and it
quotes you, but you said you were on vacation at the time and you had never
seen the Manafort pages, correct?

Serhiy L.: No, until the publication in New York Times, I've never seen.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, so then ... So then on the 18th, continue. You were saying what

Serhiy L.: Yeah, 18 of August it was the day when Ukrainian anti-corruption bureau on
behalf of the agency on the ... Answering on the request from different media
outlets, they proved that Mr. Manafort mentioned a number of times in this
black ledger ... And, by the way this facts were proven by FBI and then he was

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convicted because of this scheme to avoid taxation in US, to steal money of your
taxpayers. This money were taken from Ukrainian taxpayers because he was
paid by Ukrainian crooked President Yanukovych.

Serhiy L.: This money ... So, he violated American law, but also as Ukrainian citizen, I can
say that money transferred to Manafort account it was money siphoned from
Ukrainian economy by Ukrainian oligarchs.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, now. Let me ...

Serhiy L.: In this situation, Ukrainian citizen and American citizen, we are both victims of
this misconduct from Mr. Manafort's side.

Lee Stranahan: Now, by the way, I don't think Manafort was convicted on anything having to do
with the black ledger in the US.

Garland N.: Right.

Lee Stranahan: I don't think ... I think there were other charges.

Serhiy L.: He was charged in violation of tax law in United States, but this violation was
based on the avoiding of taxation from money received from Ukraine. And, this
money received from Ukraine, they were fixed, they were mentioned in black
ledger documentation.

Lee Stranahan: Now, did ...

Serhiy L.: So, black ledger was the initial source of information about this misconduct of
Mr. Manafort.

Lee Stranahan: Now, were you aware of somebody in Ukraine, an American who I believe was
with the FBI, named Karen Greenaway?

Serhiy L.: Sorry, I do not understand your question.

Lee Stranahan: Have you heard of a woman named Karen Greenaway who was in Ukraine? Is
that somebody you're familiar with?

Serhiy L.: Karen Greenaway?

Lee Stranahan: Yes.

Serhiy L.: As I know, she's a FBI person who was the ... Working in Ukraine or visiting
Ukraine. I know ... She's a FBI agent as I know, correct?

Lee Stranahan: Yes, that's my understanding. Yes.

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Serhiy L.: Maybe I met her once or twice in my life. You have to understand that FBI came
here in 2014 to provide Ukraine support in investigation of crimes conducted by
former President Yanukovych, when he left the Ukraine to Russia and FBI sent a
bunch of people here to help with this investigation. Maybe her role was initially
based on this... on this regard.

Garland N.: Now, one of the big things going on of course, a big part of this discussion was
the Giuliani comment. I don't know as much about Ukraine nearly as my co-host
here, Lee, but what I was wondering is ... I read things for quite a while ... The
articles that I read described you as an anti-Trump or opposing Trump. Now
Rudy Giuliani is saying you're an enemy of Trump. So, that's my question you
know ... As a person who doesn't know, and reading these things, is it accurate
to describe you as an anti-Trump person or opposing Trump? Is that inaccurate?
What do you think about that description of you?

Serhiy L.: On which ... I lost the signal.

Garland N.: Okay, I'll ask you again. Yes ...

Serhiy L.: I have not heard your...

Garland N.: Certainly, I'll ask again. As a person who doesn't know a lot about Ukraine, I only
know the articles that I've read over time have described you as being opposing
to Trump or anti-Trump or et cetera. You know, I've read a number of articles
and of course I guess that led to ...

Serhiy L.: I'm anti-corruption activist.

Garland N.: Yeah. I was just wondering how you felt about ...

Serhiy L.: [crosstalk 00:34:27]

Garland N.: ... about that description of you as an anti-Trump person.

Serhiy L.: [crosstalk 00:34:30]

Lee Stranahan: Do you consider yourself an anti-Trump person?

Serhiy L.: No, I consider myself as anti-corruption person. And, I know Mr. Manafort, his
role is very toxic for Ukrainian society. His role was paid for by Ukrainians,
because first he helped crooked president to be elected, and he helped this
person to elect his party into the parliament many times. So, they won four
electoral campaign together. I mean Manafort and Yanukovych. Of course
Yanukovych misused his power for personal enrichment and for corruption. I
was very angry on Yanukovych and the person who helped him to win this ... to
win this elections many times in Ukraine.

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Lee Stranahan: Now...

Serhiy L.: And then we found out that Mr. Manafort was paid by money from Ukrainians,
money of Ukrainians stolen by oligarchs and then fixed, or let's say mentioned
in black ledger. This is why I was angry on Mr. Manafort.

Lee Stranahan: Now...

Serhiy L.: My anger with Mr. Manafort is based on reliable arguments.

Lee Stranahan: Now, let me ask you this, a woman named Nellie Ohr testified. I saw you talking
about this publicly with Jeff Garner. He's a good reporter who does stuff at
Epoch Times, and you ... She ... He asked you about this, but I want to ask you
about it too.

Lee Stranahan: Nellie Ohr testified that you were a source for Fusion GPS. Now you said, when
you answered Jeff, you've never talked to or met with Nellie Ohr. Were you a
source for anybody at Fusion GPS? Did you have anything to do with the so-
called Steele Dossier? Do you know anything about that? What's your statement
on that?

Serhiy L.: I know about this only from media outlets from US. I was very much surprised
when I found out myself in the middle of this scandal, because I had no clue
about this. I never met with person you mentioned before, or maybe they took
this information from public sources. Maybe they took this information from
press conference or from ... I don't know, publications online. I have no idea.

Lee Stranahan: But, were you...

Serhiy L.: You should ask them for they have to clarify how I was the source for this
information because ...

Garland N.: And you're not just ...

Serhiy L.: my life I may have [inaudible 00:36:46] hundreds of different people. Some
of them American, American journalist, but I do not recognize the name you
mentioned now.

Garland N.: Now, but you ... Did you know Christopher Steele, or anybody working for Orbis,
or anybody working for Fusion GPS?

Serhiy L.: No, I don't know this person, no.

Garland N.: Another big...

Serhiy L.: I'm familiar with this person only from publication.

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Lee Stranahan: So that's very interesting because, again, Nellie Ohr... I'm not disputing what
you're saying, but it's interesting because Nellie Ohr did testify under oath to
congress about that. I would like to see that clarified because it's contradicted
by what you said. Do you know somebody named Vasyl Filipchuk?

Serhiy L.: Vasyl Filipchuk? Yes, he's Ukrainian expert on foreign relations.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, now it's also been reported that he was a source. Do you know anything
... Did anybody ... Was anybody trying to dig up dirt on Trump like as far as you
know in the run-up to the 2016 election?

Serhiy L.: Unfortunately, I cannot be source on this information because I have very
limited, let's say, understanding of what you're talking about. These people you
mentioned before, I never met. But ... Filipchuk, I know him because he was
working in Ukrainian Embassy in Brussels for a while. As a journalist I met him
many times. Then, I know, he was international relations expert here in Ukraine,
but I don't know about his role. I don't know about his involvement in this

Lee Stranahan: Okay, but we ...

Serhiy L.: He was ... Yes?

Lee Stranahan: No, [crosstalk 00:38:24]

Garland N.: I was going to say, another name that I'm curious about is Alexandra Chalupa?

Lee Stranahan: You say you may have met her once or twice, but you don't really know her,

Serhiy L.: Yeah, I maybe met her once in US when I was in US for some fellowship or
international events ... The journalist just once. But, really we had no exchange
about these facts of black ledger and so on. Maybe we had like ten second or 15

Lee Stranahan: Sure.

Serhiy L.: ten second and greetings and that's it. Because I'm familiar with this
name, and since there... started to be a big hype about her I understood that
maybe I met her once in my life.

Lee Stranahan: Okay, so we only have about...

Serhiy L.: [crosstalk 00:39:09] ...but the so-called conspiracy about ...

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Lee Stranahan: Mr. Leshchenko, we've only got about 30 seconds left but you're a professional
at media. Is there anything you'd like to say in the last 30 seconds?

Serhiy L.: I want to say that Ukraine is a country which is friendly oriented toward US.
Ukraine has very much appreciated the support US provided to Ukraine in this
important and difficult time. And, please don't consider Ukraine as a part of
some conspiracies. Ukraine is country which is really looking forward to have
support in our difficult but I believe still very effective democratic
transformation process.

Serhiy L.: In situation with anti-corruption criminal investigation, we should work

together, not to confront each other. If we help to disclose the misuse of public
sources in US or if we help to find out the fact that some Americans, even high
ranked Americans, were avoiding taxation in US, I think we have to be
sympathetic toward each other, because we made this job in the interest of
ordinary people. Ukrainian citizens, American citizens and we also very much
looking forward to have support from US ... [crosstalk 00:40:27]

Garland N.: That's ...

Lee Stranahan: Thank you. Serhiy Leshchenko, we're out of time. Thanks so much for joining us.
We got more coming up. Fault Lines with Nixon and Stranahan.

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