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Case 2:17-cv-10370-DPH-SDD ECF No. 27-4 filed 12/08/17 PageID.

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In The Matter Of:

Doe vs.
Warren Consolidated Schools, et al.

Theresa Ann Callahan

September 21, 2017


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vs. 2:17-cv-10370-DPH-SDD ECF No. 27-4 filed 12/08/17 PageID.199Theresa
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4 4 Nacht & Roumel, P.C.
5 JANE DOE, a minor, by her next 5 10 North Main Street, Suite 555
6 friend and parent, DEA GOODMAN, 6 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104
7 Plaintiff, 7 (734) 663-7550
8 -vs- Case No. 2:17-cv-10370 8
9 WARREN CONSOLIDATED Hon. Denise Page Hood 9 Appearing on behalf of the Warren
10 SCHOOLS, THERESA CALLAHAN, 10 Administrators Association and the Witness.
13 Defendants. 13
14 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/ 14
16 DATE: Thursday, September 21, 2017 16
17 TIME: 9:51 a.m. 17
18 LOCATION: Warren Consolidated Schools 18
19 31300 Anita Drive 19
20 Warren, Michigan 20
21 21
22 REPORTER: John J. Slatin, RPR, CSR-5180 22
23 Certified Shorthand Reporter 23
24 24
25 (Appearances listed on page 2) 25

Page 2 Page 4
4 Salvatore, Prescott & Porter, PLLC
5 105 East Main Street 5 THERESA ANN CALLAHAN
6 Northville, Michigan 48167 6
7 (248) 679-8711 7 Examination by Ms. Salvatore 6
8 8
9 Appearing on behalf of the Plaintiff. 9 EXHIBITS (Attached): IDENTIFIED
10 10
11 KENNETH B. CHAPIE (P66148) 11 Exhibit 1 Warren Consolidated Schools, 75
12 Giarmarco, Mullins & Horton, P.C. 12 Student Code of Conduct,
13 101 West Big Beaver Road, 10th Floor 13 Student Rights and
14 Troy, Michigan 48084 14 Responsibilities, Student
15 (248) 457-7020 15 Records, Revised August 2014
16 16 Exhibit 2 Warren Consolidated 81
17 Appearing on behalf of the Defendants. 17 Bylaws & Policies, 1662 -
18 18 Anti-Harassment
19 (Appearances continued on page 3) 19 Exhibit 3 Warren Consolidated 83
20 20 Bylaws & Policies, 2260 -
21 21 Nondiscrimination and
22 22 Access to Equal Educational
23 23 Opportunity
24 24
25 25 (Exhibits continued on page 5)

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1 try to let me finish my question before you answer. If
2 we talk over each other, it makes it hard for John to
3 Exhibit 4 Board of Education, 90
3 get a clear transcript; okay?
4 New Policy, Vol. 30, No.1,
4 A. Okay.
5 Sexual Violence 5 Q. You're going to need to answer verbally, as well. So,
6 Exhibit 5 Log Entries document 94
6 if you shake your head or if you say "uh-huh" or
7 Exhibit 6 Witness Statement dated 129
7 "uh-uh," I might say, "Is that a yes?" "Is that a no?"
8 5-15-15 8 I just want to make sure we have a clear transcript;
9 Exhibit 7 Police report 160 9 okay?
10 Exhibit 8 Warren Consolidated 189 10 A. Okay.
11 Schools, Superintendent's 11 Q. Could you state your full name and your position,
12 Review Committee Expulsion 12 please, for the record?
13 Hearing Report 13 A. Theresa Ann Callahan. I'm the Administrator of
14 Exhibit 9 Notice of Student Misconduct 195 14 Assessments, Latchkey and Preschool in Warren
15 and Suspension from School 15 Consolidated Schools.
16 16 Q. Okay. And how long have you held that position?
17 17 A. About 20 months.
18 18 Q. Okay. And what are your duties and responsibilities in
19 19 that job?
20 20 A. So, basically what my title says. I'm in charge of all
21 21 the assessments for the district. I also run our
22 22 preschool and our latchkey, our transitional
23 23 kindergarten program and our inner sessions.
24 24 Q. Okay. And who do you report to currently?
25 25 A. John Bernia.

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1 Thursday, September 21, 2017 1 Q. What is his title?

2 Warren, Michigan 2 A. Chief Academic Officer.
3 9:51 a.m. 3 Q. Okay. And prior to your current position, what was your
4 * * * 4 position in the district?
5 THERESA ANN CALLAHAN, 5 A. I was an assistant principal at Cousino High School.
6 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 6 Q. How long were you assistant principal there?
7 as follows: 7 A. Maybe ten years.
8 EXAMINATION 8 Q. Ten years.
9 BY MS. SALVATORE: 9 And what were your duties and responsibilities as
10 Q. Good morning. 10 assistant principal?
11 A. Good morning. 11 A. So, everything related to students. So, it would be
12 Q. Is it Dr. Callahan or Ms. Callahan? 12 student discipline, student attendance, student
13 A. Ms. Callahan. 13 recordkeeping. I also was in charge of registration.
14 Q. Ms. Callahan. 14 We were also in charge of parent/teacher conferences.
15 We met a minute ago, but I'm Jennifer Salvatore. 15 We were in charge of testing out, dual enrollment, a
16 I'm representing the Plaintiff in this case, which is 16 number of administrative functions that we do.
17 pending in federal court in the Eastern District of 17 Q. Were there multiple assistant principals at Cousino or
18 Michigan. We're here today for your deposition. 18 just you?
19 A. Okay. 19 A. There were three.
20 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before? 20 Q. Three.
21 A. No. 21 And did your duties and responsibilities stay the
22 Q. Okay. And I'm sure that counsel, Ken and Nick, have 22 same fairly stable throughout your ten years as
23 gone over the general rules with you, but I just want to 23 assistant principal?
24 remind you that everything we're saying is being 24 A. Correct.
25 transcribed by John. So, the most important rule is to 25 Q. And who -- did you report to the same principal the

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1 changes and changes. So, we usually let them sort of 1 school? I mean, was that anything you discussed with
2 work that process out, and then when they've given us a 2 him, or that he brought to the attention of school
3 final statement, we'll say, "Are you ready to write your 3 leadership if he was aware of it?
4 statement now?" 4 A. So, the State -- if a student has been convicted or
5 Q. And what's the purpose of having the students write a 5 found guilty of something and they're a student in our
6 written statement? Why was that important? 6 school, they will send us a notification. If he
7 A. Because it's important that it is that we know exactly 7 receives that notification, he will then provide that to
8 what it is that they said and what they believed 8 us.
9 happened. 9 Q. Okay.
10 Q. Okay. When you took notes during interviews, did you 10 A. But traditionally, we don't talk about what's happening
11 take them on your laptop? Did you write them on a pad 11 outside of school unless it's somehow connected
12 of paper? What was sort of your practice in terms of 12 specifically to school.
13 note-taking? 13 Q. What if there's a criminal investigation going on that
14 A. Sort of my practice was, I would print off the student's 14 involves multiple students at your school but it didn't
15 information from PowerSchool, and I would write on that 15 involve issues that happened at the school? Would that
16 particular sheet. 16 be something that Officer Schultz might make leadership
17 Q. Okay. 17 aware of or that you might become aware of in some other
18 A. Once I was done with that, I would record whatever the 18 manner?
19 final outcome was sort of in PowerSchool, which is where 19 A. Not traditionally, no.
20 we would record it, and then I would shred all of my 20 Q. Okay. Have you had situations other than this situation
21 information. 21 where you've had to investigate or discipline students
22 Q. What sort of information about students can you access 22 for sexual contact at school or on school grounds or at
23 through PowerSchool? 23 a school event?
24 A. Grades, discipline history, attendance. You can tell if 24 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that for me?
25 they're special ed. You can tell if they're ELL and 25 Q. Have you had other situations besides this situation

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1 receiving services. 1 where you've had to investigate or discipline students

2 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. "-- if they're --" 2 for having sexual contact with each other at school or
3 A. ELL, English Language Learners. 3 at a school event?
4 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 A. So, in my role, yes. You know, they're teenagers. It's
5 A. You can tell if there's been any notes from teachers. 5 all kinds of varying degrees of that particular piece.
6 You can see all of their classroom work and what they've 6 Q. Uh-huh. How common would that be investigated or
7 missed and what they haven't missed. You can drill down 7 disciplined in your role as assistant principal?
8 pretty good in terms of knowing academically what is 8 A. Not very common. Especially not at the level of what
9 happening with that student. 9 we're talking about now. Obviously, we educate
10 BY MS. SALVATORE: 10 students. We want to keep a safe and orderly
11 Q. What about disciplinary actions? Are those recorded in 11 environment. We don't allow them to have sex on school
12 PowerSchool? 12 property. I mean, obviously that's what -- we're there
13 A. They are. There's a discipline log. 13 to educate.
14 Q. Okay. And who records that? Was that your 14 So, we have pretty specific rules with regards to
15 responsibility at the time you were assistant principal? 15 that. But it can be that somebody would come in and
16 A. Administrators, secretaries would sometimes input for 16 report that two kids were kissing, for example. So, we
17 the administrators. Sometimes teachers would put 17 would sort of investigate that and see what was
18 information in, but not very often. Teachers' process 18 happening.
19 was to basically write a referral to the administrator, 19 Q. And what -- was there punishment that students would get
20 so they didn't actually get to make any decisions about 20 into for kissing?
21 discipline. That came to us. 21 A. It would depend on the situation. So, when we look at
22 Q. Okay. Were there -- with respect to Officer Schultz's 22 discipline for a student, we look at everything. We
23 role, did he sort of keep you and school leadership 23 look at -- again, it's a whole child piece. It's not
24 apprised of any criminal issue that any of the students 24 just that one individual incident. So, it's -- you
25 may be having, even if those issues didn't happen at 25 know, their grades, their attendance, their -- sort of

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1 what is happening with regards to what they're doing 1 says it is, but --
2 because they are a child. They're not just this 2 Q. What's your understanding of what it is based on your
3 particular one incident. 3 training and experience?
4 And so we would look at the whole -- you know, the 4 A. Again, I would defer back to our policies because that's
5 whole piece. And there's always some, obviously, 5 where I would definitely go. And what's listed under
6 discipline. Discipline could be as minor as making a 6 our Student Code of Conduct.
7 phone call home and contacting a parent. We consider 7 Q. Okay.
8 that to be a disciplinary piece and involving parents 8 A. So, I would refer to those always before I would make
9 and solving the problem, and it can be all the way up to 9 any -- before I do anything with regards to what were
10 and including expulsion. 10 working on whatever it be. So --
11 Q. Was it your practice to have some sort of discipline for 11 Q. I just want to get your understanding, though, as a, you
12 students whenever there was some sort of sexual contact 12 know, administrator with decades of experience working
13 students were having with other students at school, or 13 with high school students.
14 were there times when that didn't merit any sort of 14 What is your general understanding of what
15 discipline? 15 constitutes sexual harassment in schools between
16 A. Again, I can't recall a level of something like this. 16 students? What kind of conduct?
17 We just -- it's so rare, we didn't have it happen. 17 A. So, basically unwelcome or unwanted, persistent or
18 The best example I can give you is that one of 18 pervasive.
19 kissing -- 19 Q. Okay. And in terms of -- and you -- I think your answer
20 Q. Are there -- 20 was -- well, let me ask it again. I don't remember the
21 A. -- that I can think of. 21 answer.
22 Q. Are there any other incidents other than this case that 22 Had you had any allegations of student-on-student
23 involved anything other than kissing between students at 23 sexual harassment that you ever had to deal with at
24 school that you had to deal with as assistant principal? 24 Cousino?
25 A. Not that I can recall. 25 A. Not that I can recall off the top of my head.

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1 Q. Okay. In ten years, there was never an issue at a 1 Q. Okay. And in the -- in the PowerSchool system --
2 football game that involved some sort of sexual contact 2 A. Uh-huh.
3 or at a school event or on a bus? No incidents like 3 Q. -- if a student is -- I think you mentioned if it
4 that? 4 involved kissing or some sort of public display of
5 A. Not that I can recall I've investigated. 5 affection that doesn't rise to the level of sexual
6 Q. Okay. Did you have any -- so, what was the source of 6 contact, there might be a call home or, you know,
7 your knowledge in terms of -- or your training in terms 7 something -- not a suspension, but some more minor
8 of what to do or how to discipline students then if some 8 discipline.
9 sort of sexual incident between students occurred? 9 Would that be reflected in the PowerSchool system
10 A. So, we use our Student Code of Conduct to guide us. We 10 if there was something other than expulsion or
11 use our policies to guide us. 11 suspension that a student received in the way of
12 Q. Did you ever have any -- in the ten years you were 12 disciplinary action?
13 assistant principal, any allegations by students of 13 A. Yes.
14 sexual violence or sexual assault involving another 14 Q. Okay. So, even a call home, for example, about an
15 student? 15 incident --
16 A. No. 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What about any allegations of sexual harassment 17 Q. -- would be reflected in the PowerSchool?
18 involving students that you had to deal with or that you 18 A. Uh-huh.
19 became aware of? 19 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Is that --
20 A. Can you clarify for me what you mean by "sexual 20 A. Yes.
21 harassment"? 21 BY MS. SALVATORE:
22 Q. Sure. 22 Q. And would it be your -- part of your practice if you
23 Do you have an understanding of what sexual 23 made such a call to the parent to then go log that into
24 harassment in the school context looks like or is? 24 PowerSchool?
25 A. Well, I certainly can refer to what our board policy 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Okay. And do you know how far back the data in 1 Q. First or second weekend in June.
2 PowerSchool goes? How long the school has been using 2 A. Uh-huh.
3 that software? 3 Q. And classes then would be over, what, two weeks prior to
4 A. I want to say six or seven years. 4 that or one week prior?
5 Q. Okay. Have you -- during your time as assistant 5 A. Traditionally one to two weeks.
6 principal, did you ever deal with disciplinary issues 6 Q. Okay. Was the last day of classes different for seniors
7 involving students who were about to graduate? You 7 than for the other grades?
8 know, sort of about-to-graduate seniors who had some 8 A. Yes. Well, they're usually by a week or two.
9 sort of disciplinary issue in the May and June months 9 Q. A week or two.
10 just prior to graduation? 10 And why is that?
11 A. I had an occasion where we had some students who 11 A. Because the seniors actually graduate and walk across
12 misbehaved at prom. It was one year that they 12 the stage, so they're done.
13 misbehaved at prom. 13 Q. The grading needs to be done earlier? Is that the
14 Q. What do you mean by "misbehaved"? What happened? 14 reason?
15 A. They were not doing what they were supposed to be doing. 15 A. For the seniors. Correct.
16 So, they may have been imbibing in some alcoholic 16 Q. For the seniors. Okay.
17 beverages. 17 Have you had any situations where a senior about to
18 Q. Drinking? 18 graduate has committed some sort of major misconduct
19 A. Yes. 19 just prior to graduation or in the weeks leading up to
20 Q. Okay. Okay. And what sort of -- in that instance, what 20 graduation? You know, a weapon at school, some sort of
21 sort of disciplinary action did those students receive? 21 violent assault where you've had to have a more severe
22 A. So, again, we go back to the whole child and their whole 22 disciplinary action occur?
23 discipline record and every way they are before we make 23 A. Just this case.
24 any decisions. So, a decision is made on -- based on a 24 Q. It's the only time in ten years that's happened?
25 whole -- and, again, if they've been with us for four 25 A. Uh-huh.

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1 years, we have quite a picture of that student at that 1 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Is that --
2 point. 2 A. Just this year -- or just this case.
3 So, I can't hypothetically tell you what it would 3 BY MS. SALVATORE:
4 have looked like. In this case, most of those students 4 Q. And what's your understanding of the district's policy
5 had really never been in trouble. They just got to prom 5 with respect to a major misconduct that occurs for a
6 and made a -- and so I believe that it is that they got 6 just-to-graduate senior in terms of what your
7 a suspension -- a two-week suspension -- a ten-day 7 disciplinary options are?
8 suspension. 8 A. Again, we would have the right to recommend any of those
9 Q. And that suspension -- when does prom occur? What time 9 discipline pieces that we would recommend for any other
10 of year? 10 student.
11 A. Usually in May sometime. 11 Q. So, no different than any other student --
12 Q. In May. 12 A. No.
13 Late May? Mid-May? Do you have a sense of when it 13 Q. -- in terms of options for discipline?
14 occurs? 14 Have you ever -- are you aware of any student in
15 A. It varies depending on when the halls are available. 15 the district who has ever not been allowed to graduate
16 Q. Okay. And when do classes end for seniors at Cousino? 16 because of a disciplinary issue?
17 When do they finish their course work before graduation? 17 And when I say "not allowed to graduate," doesn't
18 A. Again, depending on the year, because the calendar 18 receive a diploma.
19 always falls based on when the graduation date is and 19 A. Not in the time that I've been an assistant principal.
20 then they work their way backwards. It could be the end 20 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any other occasion at any other
21 of May; it could be the first week in June. 21 time where a student at the district has not been
22 Q. Okay. And the graduation, when does it typically occur? 22 allowed to graduate or a graduation diploma has been
23 I know it's -- the exact date is different every 23 delayed for some reason because of a disciplinary issue
24 year, but is it typically -- 24 that occurred prior to graduation?
25 A. It's usually the first or second weekend in June. 25 A. No.

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1 And so I may have been involved in some of that 1 students involved in one incident.
2 because we were broken down by different parts of the 2 Q. Yeah.
3 alphabet for students. 3 So, you handle discipline for students just with
4 Q. Okay. 4 certain alphabetical -- certain students?
5 A. And so we worked primarily with our students. So, I 5 A. Correct.
6 can't recall if I specifically disciplined. 6 Q. What part of the alphabet did you have?
7 Q. Okay. 7 A. I had GO to O.
8 A. I know that there were instances where it is that we had 8 Q. You had what?
9 found students with that, but I don't recall actually 9 A. GO. So, I went GO to O.
10 doing the discipline. 10 A. G to O.
11 Q. Do you know what discipline other students have received 11 Q. G to O. And --
12 for those sorts of infractions, having -- and 12 A. GO to O.
13 specifically sexual materials on their phones or -- 13 Q. Okay. And then do you know how it was broken down with
14 A. And, again, we look at the whole child and make a 14 the other assistant principals who had the rest of the
15 decision. 15 alphabet?
16 So, we look at all of the past discipline. We look 16 A. Yeah. So, A to GN that year, I believe would have been
17 to see if there's sort of repeated behavior. We look to 17 Andre Buford.
18 see, you know, how egregious it is, those kind of things 18 Q. Okay.
19 before we make a decision. 19 A. And then P to Z would have been P.J. Cwayna.
20 Traditionally, there's some suspension time 20 Q. Okay.
21 involved in that. Obviously, we're trying to keep 21 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. The name?
22 education happening in our buildings. 22 A. P.J. Cwayna, C-w-a-y-n-a.
23 Q. Okay. And there was testimony yesterday at Ellanore 23 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
24 Evans' deposition about the suspension process and the 24 BY MS. SALVATORE:
25 expulsion process. 25 Q. Do you have an understanding or do you know how many

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1 How often did you, as assistant principal at 1 suspensions or expulsions at that school -- at the
2 Cousino, have to recommend a suspension or expulsion of 2 Cousino High School in general there were in a given
3 a student? 3 month or a given year?
4 A. And, again, it depended on -- like everything else in 4 A. We -- I don't know that.
5 the year, it goes sort of in cycles. There would be 5 Q. Okay. But that data exists --
6 some years where I would not recommend anybody. There 6 A. Correct.
7 would be other years where it might be three or four or 7 Q. -- and could be obtained?
8 five people. Sometime the incidents were the same and 8 A. (Nods head.)
9 so the recommendation was the same. And so you might 9 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Is that --
10 put three or four students up for the same incident. 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Uh-huh. 11 BY MS. SALVATORE:
12 So, it sounds like a year of lots of suspensions 12 Q. And it would be in the PowerSchool system that would be
13 might be three to five? 13 available, or where would you go to look for that data?
14 I mean, I just want to get a sense of the scope of 14 A. Any discipline that we would record all goes into
15 it. 15 PowerSchool.
16 Is that fair or -- 16 Q. And so both of the students in this case fell within
17 A. You're talking about the recommendations for that? 17 your part of the alphabet; is that right?
18 Q. The recommendations for suspension or expulsion. 18 A. Correct.
19 Did you have years where there were more than ten? 19 Q. Okay. And what sort of infractions did you
20 I just want to get a sense of how many. 20 recommend suspension or expulsion for students during
21 A. If you're talking about me personally, it would not be 21 the time you were assistant principal, just in general
22 more than ten. 22 categories?
23 Q. Okay. 23 A. Well, again, it would be major infractions under the
24 A. If you're talking about the building as a whole, there 24 Student Code of Conduct.
25 could be years. Because, again, if you have four 25 Q. Okay. Which would include?

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1 A. Uh-huh. 1 Q. Okay.
2 THE REPORTER: Is that a "yes"? 2 A. And so the titles don't always line up with the numbers.
3 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay.
4 BY MS. SALVATORE: 4 A. And so you will be able to find it by the title.
5 Q. It's not defined in the Student Code of Conduct, but do 5 Q. Okay. And Number 162 on page 4, "Possession or
6 you have an understanding of what sexual assault -- how 6 Distribution of Pornographic Materials," is that
7 it's defined or what it means? 7 something that you have ever had experience disciplining
8 A. Because it is not defined here, I would have referred 8 a student for?
9 back to my board policy. 9 A. I don't recall off the top of my head. I'm sure at some
10 Q. Okay. And then Number 9 is "Sexual Harassment," and 10 point I did, but I don't recall.
11 there is a definition of sexual harassment there. 11 Q. Okay. And if you look at page 5 under paragraph B,
12 And you've reviewed that definition and are 12 "Minor Infractions" -- and these would be, according to
13 familiar with it? 13 the policy, infractions that are one- to five-day
14 A. Yes. 14 suspension, or might be more appropriate for, rather
15 Q. Okay. And do you review the Student Code of Conduct in 15 than a major -- rather than a longer term suspension; is
16 every case where you're making a recommendation for 16 that correct?
17 expulsion or suspension? Do you review it? 17 A. That's correct.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And the minor infractions include, Number 172,
19 Q. Okay. And I assume you review it, determining what 19 "Improper dress and appearance."
20 violations you're listing for the students, what 20 Do you see that?
21 infractions they violated when you're documenting the 21 A. Correct.
22 discipline? 22 Q. How often is that -- are students disciplined for
23 A. That's part of it. 23 improper dress at Cousino?
24 Q. Okay. 24 A. It's not -- we don't have pervasive problems over there.
25 A. But I try and review the whole entire document as I'm 25 So, again, usually it's just a matter of redirecting the

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1 going through. 1 student about what the dress code is and what's
2 Q. Okay. And on page 3, Number 109, "Sexual Misconduct" is 2 appropriate.
3 another category of a major infraction. 3 Q. Okay.
4 Have you had, other than this case, any students 4 A. So, usually, that -- those ones correct themselves very
5 who have been suspended or expelled for sexual 5 quickly.
6 misconduct issues in paragraph 109 -- as defined in 6 Q. Okay. And then the "Tardiness," paragraph 174, that's a
7 paragraph 109? 7 minor infraction under the school --
8 MR. CHAPIE: I'm going to object to the form of the 8 A. It is a minor infraction, uh-huh.
9 question. It's been asked and answered. 9 Q. -- code; right?
10 Go ahead. You can answer the question. 10 Do you attend -- when a student appeals or a
11 A. I don't recall. 11 student's family appeals a disciplinary decision to the
12 BY MS. SALVATORE: 12 school board, do you attend the school board meetings?
13 Q. Okay. But if you had, you -- presumably we could -- you 13 A. No.
14 could do a query on people in PowerSchool and find if 14 Q. No.
15 there had been any students disciplined for sexual 15 And after the disciplinary committee meets on the
16 misconduct; right? 16 recommendation for suspension or expulsion, do you have
17 A. Yes. 17 any role at that point at all with respect to that
18 Q. Okay. And is it coded in some way? Is it like in the 18 disciplinary action, or is your role done at that point?
19 PowerSchool system? Is it in 109, for example? Is that 19 MR. CHAPIE: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the
20 how you code it, or do you just call it sexual 20 question.
21 misconduct? 21 BY MS. SALVATORE:
22 A. Okay. So, there are -- these numbers that you see are 22 Q. After the disciplinary hearing that takes place, when
23 aligned with what the state reporting requirements are. 23 there's a recommendation for an expulsion, do you have
24 Q. Okay. 24 any role in the process after that point?
25 A. And so those sometimes change over time. 25 A. Not directly. Occasionally, I may have to document

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1 just the mother at that point. 1 A. Just that she had said that and that she had said it was
2 Q. Okay. But with the incident involving Jane Doe, you did 2 a senior. They had very little information other than
3 talk to his father? 3 that.
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. Okay. And so what did you do next?
5 Q. Okay. And is John Roe -- did he -- my understanding is 5 A. So, this was towards the end of the day. So, they
6 he was -- he played on the track team or he ran on the 6 reported between fifth hour and sixth hour. So, at the
7 track team? 7 beginning of sixth hour --
8 A. That's my understanding, yes. 8 MR. CHAPIE: I'm sorry. Which day is this?
9 Q. Did he play any other sports that you're aware of? 9 A. On the 15th. They reported on the 15th that it had
10 A. My understanding is he played basketball. 10 occurred on the 14th.
11 Q. Okay. And did you know how he was doing academically in 11 BY MS. SALVATORE:
12 high school, how his grades were? 12 Q. And did they tell you -- you may have said this, but did
13 A. He had certainly improved since his freshman year. 13 they tell you who the other person involved was?
14 Q. Okay. 14 A. No. They just knew he was a senior. His name might
15 A. He was on track to graduate. As a matter of fact, I -- 15 have began with a "T." They weren't sure, but they knew
16 he was on track to graduate. 16 he was a senior.
17 Q. Do you know where he attended college or what he did 17 Q. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.
18 after high school? 18 So, what did you do next?
19 A. Other than what Mom told me is he was going away to 19 A. So, I called Jane Doe down to the office, and I began to
20 another -- to a private college outside of Michigan. 20 ask her about what had happened; that, again, I had had
21 Q. Was he going to be playing sports in college? Did his 21 some reports from some other students that she had been
22 parents indicate that to you either way? 22 speaking in the cafeteria about this particular
23 A. I'm not aware. 23 incident.
24 Q. Is his father a police officer? Do you know? 24 Q. Okay. And what did she say or what do you recall that
25 A. I'm not aware. I had very limited interaction. 25 she said?

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1 Q. And you don't know where he's attending college now or 1 A. She denied having any conversation at all in the
2 do you have any idea what he's doing now? 2 cafeteria with anybody about it.
3 A. I don't. 3 So, I continued to just ask her some questions
4 Q. Okay. I want to talk now about how you first learned 4 about that.
5 about the incident that's at issue in this case, the one 5 "Well, you know, Jane Doe, why might I hear that?"
6 that occurred on May 13th, I believe it was. 6 Q. Just be careful about using her name.
7 Is that your understanding that it occurred on May 7 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
8 13th of 2015? 8 Q. That's okay.
9 A. No. It's my understanding that it occurred on May 14th. 9 A. "Jane Doe, why might I hear that?"
10 Q. May 14th. Okay. 10 So, she continued to then give some additional
11 A. Okay. 11 information about, well -- she also said she had not
12 Q. How did the issue first come to your attention? 12 skipped class the day before when it had happened.
13 A. So, two young ladies came into my office to report that 13 So --
14 Jane Doe had announced that she had engaged in oral sex 14 Q. How did you know -- I mean, did you ask her about the
15 the day before. 15 day before? Did you ask her about being out of a
16 Q. And were the two students who came to report that, what 16 specific class? How did you have that information at
17 year were they? Freshmen? Sophomores? Juniors? 17 that point if she had --
18 A. They were freshmen. 18 A. I believe that the students, when they came in, said it
19 Q. Two freshmen. 19 had happened the day before during class.
20 And where had Jane Doe allegedly announced that she 20 Q. Okay. Did they tell you where it happened or what class
21 had engaged in sexual activity? 21 hour or anything like that?
22 A. In the cafeteria. 22 A. I can't recall.
23 Q. In the cafeteria. 23 Q. Okay. And so you asked Jane Doe about that, whether she
24 And did they give you any more details about what 24 had skipped class?
25 she had said? 25 A. Yep.

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1 Q. And she said no? 1 So, ultimately where she got to was that she had
2 A. She said, "No, I was in class." 2 been at her locker. He had asked her to come outside.
3 So, while she was sitting there with me, I picked 3 She didn't really want to go. She did, however, go out.
4 up the phone and called the teacher who said, "No, she 4 They sat in the car. She did engage in oral sex and
5 was definitely not here." 5 then they both came back into the building.
6 And so that gave me some other talking points with 6 Q. Okay. And she's verbally telling you this?
7 her to discuss sort of what had happened. 7 A. Verbally.
8 Q. Okay. 8 Q. Where were you at the time you had this conversation
9 A. So, then she basically told me that she -- yep, she had 9 with her? In your office or --
10 stayed by her locker, with one of her friends, and she 10 A. In my office.
11 had just spent the time at the locker standing there. 11 Q. Okay. Was anybody else present?
12 And I said, "Well, Jane Doe, you know, I'm going to 12 A. So, because I had heard she might have been involved in
13 review the videotapes to see what's on them. So, I 13 sexual activity with another student and because, you
14 really need you to give me a truthful account about what 14 know, again, I'm always concerned about kids, I had
15 happened." 15 called the counselor and asked her to come down.
16 Q. Okay. 16 The counselor came down part way into the
17 A. And so she then changed her story and said she had 17 conversation, so I don't think she was there when I made
18 talked to this one other young man, and the other one 18 the phone call to the teacher. I don't think she was
19 had approached her. He had -- 19 there when we sort of said, "You know, I'm going to
20 Q. Two different young men? Are you talking about two 20 check those cameras," but I think she was there for that
21 different men? 21 second part of it where she said basically this is what
22 A. Two different young men. 22 had happened and --
23 Q. Okay. 23 Q. And the counselor's name again is what?
24 A. One is John Doe; another -- 24 A. Cindy Dodero.
25 Q. And you can use initials maybe for the other. 25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. Okay. C.L. 1 A. So, she came in and again sat next to Jane Doe. I was
2 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. The -- 2 sitting across from -- I'm sorry -- from Jane Doe. And
3 A. C.L. 3 so I said to her, "Well, I'm going to call your mom
4 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 4 because you know you can't do that on school property."
5 A. She said she was talking to C.L., and John Doe came up, 5 She begged me not to call Mom. I said, "I'm really
6 started talking to her. The other one left. He asked 6 sorry, but I have to call Mom."
7 her to go out to the car and chill. 7 Q. Before you go there, can I just ask a follow-up
8 BY MS. SALVATORE: 8 question?
9 Q. Okay. 9 When she described to you what happened in the car,
10 A. She said, "No, I don't want to go out." 10 did she describe it as is written in her statement?
11 He said, "Come on. You really have to come with 11 A. No.
12 me." 12 Q. No.
13 She's like, "No, I really don't want to go." 13 So, did she describe any element of resisting oral
14 And he's like, "Come on. Let's go out. It will be 14 sex or saying she wanted to stop --
15 okay." 15 A. No.
16 So, she said -- so, she went out to the car. She 16 Q. -- at any point?
17 got into the car. They sat on their phones for a few 17 A. No.
18 minutes and they just chilled, just talked. 18 Q. And did she describe sort of in detail where she was
19 I said, "That's all that happened?" 19 sitting, where he was sitting, or was it more of a
20 "Yes." 20 general description of sort of, "We had oral sex in the
21 So, I said, "Why would you just go out to a car and 21 car"?
22 chill? Why would you, you know, kind of hang out 22 A. It was more of a general description. She did say he
23 there?" 23 took down his pants and she "started doing it" basically
24 So, as I continued to ask some questions, she 24 is how she referred to it orally. Those are kind of her
25 continued to give me more and more details. 25 words. Again, not much details, you know. I don't want

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1 to press too hard, you know. 1 So, she tells basically the story again that
2 Q. And you, at this point, knew who the boy was who was 2 started at the locker. He -- you know, she really
3 involved? 3 didn't want to go. He forced her out the door
4 A. Because she had told me who I would find basically on 4 basically. I don't know if she used those exact words,
5 the camera. So -- 5 but that was the gist of it; that it is that he, you
6 Q. Okay. And you knew he was a senior? 6 know, coerced her; that he basically kept pulling at her
7 A. Correct. 7 until she finally gave in. She went out to the car.
8 Q. And you knew -- 8 She really didn't want to do anything. They chilled for
9 A. That's what she told me. 9 a little while, and he made a comment to her about,
10 Q. And you knew Jane Doe was a freshman? 10 "Well, are you going to do it or not?" or something to
11 A. Correct. 11 that effect.
12 Q. Okay. So, you were -- I'm sorry. You were saying then 12 And she said she had no prior knowledge; that it
13 she was saying, "Don't call Mom." 13 was just -- she was just going out there to chill with
14 A. "Don't call Mom." 14 him, and then basically he started to force himself on
15 Q. What happened next? 15 her. He asked her, "Are you going to do it?" And then,
16 A. So, I asked the counselor to take her to go get her 16 you know, she started to engage because he coerced her,
17 books out of her locker because I knew that she was 17 and then he put his hand on her head as she tried to
18 going to be at home, and so I wanted to make sure she 18 stop, basically. That's basically what she wrote in her
19 had access to be able to get all of her materials and 19 statement.
20 all her work while she was there, while we were 20 So, at that point I asked her just to stop for a
21 conducting the investigation. 21 second until our liaison officer could get down, so the
22 And so she went with the counselor out to go get 22 liaison could hear that as well because we were talking
23 her books. I stopped it there because we were getting 23 about a different issue at that point.
24 towards the end of the school day and all of the kids 24 And so he came down, and she sort of repeated what
25 were going to be in the hallway pretty soon, and I 25 she has in that statement.

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1 didn't want her to be with the counselor in the hallway. 1 Q. Okay. You had already called the liaison officer down,
2 There's a lot of confidentiality stuff. I try and 2 though, because of -- simply because of the age
3 protect the kids the best I can. And when they see them 3 difference --
4 walking down the hall with a counselor, that's a clue to 4 A. I had.
5 the other kids that something is going on. 5 Q. -- before you even knew there was an allegation of
6 And because these rumors were already going around 6 coercion?
7 and they had made it to my office, that means there was 7 A. Correct.
8 a lot of stuff going on. So, I was really trying to 8 And I had called Mom, and Mom was on the way. So,
9 protect her the best I could. So, I sent her with the 9 I thought Mom would maybe be about a half hour or so to
10 counselor, and then I picked up the phone and I called 10 get there. It took Mom a little bit longer to get
11 Mom and I explained what happened. 11 there, maybe an hour, hour and a half to get there. She
12 And then I called my liaison officer, and I said, 12 did come in with Dad.
13 "I have a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old. I need you to 13 So, I had Jane Doe finish her story with me and
14 come down." 14 then write it out.
15 In the meantime, then, she comes back with the 15 Q. Was the liaison officer there when she wrote it out?
16 counselor from getting her books and comes back -- 16 A. He might have been in my office, and she might have been
17 THE REPORTER: Excuse me? 17 sitting in the office in the in between.
18 A. In the meantime, she comes back to my office with the 18 Q. Okay. What was her demeanor when she told you and wrote
19 counselor. 19 out the statement in terms of what happened?
20 BY MS. SALVATORE: 20 A. Very much the exact same demeanor that she had had all
21 Q. Okay. 21 along with telling her story.
22 A. The counselor says, "She has something else to tell 22 Q. And what was that?
23 you." 23 A. So, she was just kind of telling me the story.
24 And I said, "Okay. Go ahead and tell me what 24 Q. Was she tearful?
25 happened." 25 A. Not at that time.

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1 Q. Okay. Did she become tearful at some point? 1 advocate for her and to be that set of eyes and ears.
2 A. Not during the conversation that I had with her. 2 So, when she did leave with the counselor, I don't know
3 Q. At any point did she become tearful? 3 if they went back to the counselor's office or not, but
4 A. No. I mean, she -- when I told her I was going to call 4 that's one of the other reasons why I put a counselor in
5 Mom, she was really upset and she was tearful then, but 5 there so that if she wants to tell more of her story,
6 not when she came back and told the revised version of 6 that she can do that.
7 the story. 7 Q. When you pulled Jane Doe out of class initially, what
8 Q. Okay. And when she described what happened with John 8 time of the day was it? Do you remember?
9 Roe in the car -- so, it sounds like you were there, the 9 A. I believe it was right -- probably right around 1:15 or
10 counselor was there, and the school liaison officer was 10 so.
11 there or may have been there? 11 Q. 1:15.
12 A. When she gave her revised piece, yes. 12 And do you know whether by the time Mom got there
13 Q. Okay. And you had her write out a statement? 13 the school day had ended, or was it --
14 A. I did. 14 A. Mom got there about between 3:30 and 4:00 because the
15 Q. And the statement was consistent with what she had 15 office staff was already gone when Mom and Dad got
16 described verbally? 16 there. So, it would have to be after 3:30. So --
17 A. At the very end, yes. 17 Q. So, the statement she gave -- the discussions you had
18 Q. Okay. 18 with her all occurred in about the course of an hour,
19 MR. CHAPIE: Consistent with what she said at which 19 you would say?
20 time? 20 A. About the course of an hour. So, between 1:15. She was
21 MS. SALVATORE: I think the witness testified at 21 back from getting her books before school got out. That
22 the very end. 22 was 2:15. And she might have been telling me her
23 A. She changed her story several times throughout, though. 23 revised statement as school was releasing.
24 BY MS. SALVATORE: 24 Q. Okay.
25 Q. Okay. Had you ever -- well, I think your testimony was, 25 A. So --

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1 this is the first time in -- that you had a student make 1 Q. Okay. So, after she gave the statement and wrote it
2 an allegation of coerced sexual activity or sexual 2 out, did you have any other conversation with her, or
3 assault of any sort? 3 what happened next?
4 A. Correct. 4 A. I didn't. I was waiting for her mother to arrive there.
5 Q. Okay. 5 Q. Okay.
6 A. That I recall. 6 A. So, she sat with the counselor, I think, for a little
7 THE REPORTER: Excuse me? 7 while, and then the counselor had to leave for the day.
8 A. That I recall. 8 And so she came and sat in my office for a few minutes,
9 BY MS. SALVATORE: 9 but ultimately then Mom and Dad had arrived.
10 Q. Okay. And do you have any training on whether it's 10 Q. Okay. And what happened when Mom and Dad arrived?
11 unusual or not unusual for somebody who has been 11 A. So, Mom and Dad arrived. I explained to them the
12 victimized sexually to not disclose all of those details 12 story -- the second story that she had given. I
13 in the initial interview? Do you know whether that's 13 explained to Mom and Dad that it is -- I had talked to
14 unusual or not unusual? 14 her about not talking to the other young man at all over
15 A. I mean, every victim responds differently. So, that 15 the weekend for her protection.
16 could definitely happen. 16 So, we talked a lot about what she needed to do,
17 Q. Okay. Did you believe her when she told you what had 17 not, you know, communicate at all, but it is -- I was
18 happened, or did you make any judgment at all at that 18 going to do an investigation based on the information
19 point about whether what she was telling you was true or 19 that she provided, and that I would be in contact with
20 not true? 20 them early next week as a follow-up.
21 A. With this revised statement, I absolutely believed it. 21 Q. What day of the week was it?
22 I didn't have any reason at that point not to believe 22 A. It was Friday.
23 it. 23 Q. Friday.
24 Q. Okay. And -- 24 A. So, Friday about 4:00 or so when I met with the parents.
25 A. And I did have the counselor there with her, again, to 25 Q. Okay. And you knew -- did you -- you knew before -- did

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1 you know before the end of the school day on Friday that 1 And do you recall what time it was that you called
2 she had alleged a coerced sexual encounter with John 2 John Roe's parents?
3 Roe? 3 A. I want to say by the time I was done with Jane Doe's
4 A. Again, it could have been right as the bell sort of was 4 parents it probably was 5:30 --
5 ringing. Because, again, she had left with the 5 Q. Okay.
6 counselor to get books, and she was back before, again, 6 A. -- by the time I was making contact.
7 to try and keep her protected from kids seeing anything 7 Q. And what did you tell John Roe's parents about when you
8 happening. 8 wanted to interview him or talk to him?
9 Q. Okay. 9 A. I told him that it is that -- because, again, I was
10 A. I don't know if she gave it to me as the bell was 10 talking to Dad, and so he really couldn't commit to a
11 ringing, right after the bell was ringing, but it was 11 time; that we needed to talk to Mom, and that I would be
12 clearly, you know, at the end of the school day. 12 in contact on Monday to determine when that time would
13 Q. And what was -- did you talk to Jane Doe's parents in 13 be. I told him it had to be, obviously, as soon as
14 front of Jane Doe, or did you have a separate meeting 14 possible. I told Dad the exact same thing, no
15 with them? 15 contact -- make sure they're not making any contact over
16 A. Jane Doe was sitting out in the front office, and I went 16 the weekend.
17 into the principal's office and talked with Mom and Dad. 17 Q. What was John Roe's dad's reaction to the phone call?
18 MS. SALVATORE: Can we go off the record for a 18 A. I think he was a little shocked as well, as you could
19 second? 19 imagine. It's pretty tough news hearing that.
20 (Discussion held off the record.) 20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 MS. SALVATORE: Back on the record. 21 A. So, we talked about the age difference and we talked
22 BY MS. SALVATORE: 22 about the allegation out there.
23 Q. What were -- what was the Mom and Dad's reaction? 23 Q. What specifically did you talk about, about the age
24 A. I think they were a little shocked about the additional 24 difference with the dad?
25 information that I had given them because, of course, 25 A. Just that it is that she was a 15-year-old, and he was

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1 remember when I first called Mom, I had said that she 1 17, and so we had notified the police regarding that.
2 had engaged in oral sex on the school -- and that that's 2 Q. Okay.
3 what I was doing. At that point it was a misconduct 3 A. I also told him that, obviously, the police would be,
4 issue and that's sort of where I was taking it from. 4 you know, contacting him as soon as possible as well.
5 But since Jane Doe had done that, I also told Mom and 5 Q. Okay. And what did you do next in the process at that
6 Dad that I had contacted the police and Officer Schultz. 6 point?
7 Officer Schultz then came in and explained his 7 A. So, it was like 6:00 on Friday. I think I put it to an
8 process of how that was all going to work. I explained 8 end for the evening.
9 our process and that we would investigate it, and that 9 I came back in on Monday, and the first thing I did
10 we would be in contact with Mom again on Monday. And we 10 was just check the camera because I wanted to make sure
11 basically sent her home with the parents. 11 that what Jane Doe was telling me was accurate, because
12 Q. Okay. 12 that would be the first place that I would start is with
13 A. At that point, then I went back to my office and got on 13 our building cameras to see, because there was really
14 the phone with John Roe's parents; couldn't get a hold 14 two parts to her allegation. The first issue was
15 of Mom. Called her twice over about a 10-minute period 15 coerced and then the second was that it is that she was
16 and then finally ended up calling Dad, and I told him 16 coerced in the vehicle as well.
17 that he obviously was suspended pending an investigation 17 And so that was the first piece of anything I could
18 immediately, and he needed to go pick him up. 18 get to because I couldn't get to the other student yet.
19 Dad indicated that he was at the track meet, so I 19 I couldn't get to anything else other than that piece.
20 told him to go pick him up from the track meet. Dad 20 And so as I reviewed the camera, what I found was
21 told me it would take about a half hour or so to get 21 that it was just a very quick -- there was no exchange
22 there from work. 22 at all. It was not like she had reported. So, she had
23 Q. Okay. Was it a home track meet or away? 23 reported that it is -- they had this whole -- engaged in
24 A. They were away, I believe. 24 this whole conversation he told her. You see on the
25 Q. Away. 25 camera literally he walks right by her and she walks

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1 right behind him and follows him all the way out to the 1 Q. Okay. But in any case, what you observed on the
2 car. 2 security camera was consistent with her written
3 So, that kind of made it -- made me unsure of sort 3 statement at least in terms of what happened at the
4 of what was happening at that point. 4 locker; right? It doesn't differ from the written
5 MS. SALVATORE: Let's stop for just a second. I 5 statement?
6 just want to take a look at her statement while we're 6 A. Doesn't necessarily differ from --
7 talking about this topic. 7 Q. Okay. And the security camera that you reviewed, how
8 Can we mark this, John? 8 good of a -- I mean, how close was it to where the
9 (Deposition Exhibit 6 marked 9 locker was or describe what the footage -- quality
10 for identification.) 10 footage it was and how well you could see the
11 BY MS. SALVATORE: 11 interaction in the camera.
12 Q. Exhibit 6 is the -- do you recognize this as the 12 A. So, you can't hear audio, but you can see what happens.
13 statement Jane Doe wrote out for you -- 13 It's very clear. You can see that it is that he walks
14 A. Yeah. 14 by. He basically turns his head and then keeps walking,
15 Q. -- on the Friday that this happened? 15 and then she follows right behind him, and you can
16 A. Yep. 16 follow. And it's multiple cameras because they're
17 Q. Okay. And you had testified earlier that her written 17 positioned throughout the building. You can actually
18 statement was consistent with the last version of the 18 see him walk down the hall and turn, and you can see her
19 verbal statement she gave you? 19 do the same thing, and she follows him all the way out,
20 A. Okay. So, if -- maybe if we go line by line, some of it 20 and you can follow that out for most of their walk out
21 might not be exactly same. 21 to the vehicle.
22 Q. Okay. 22 Q. Can you see them outside the school building at all?
23 A. The first part in here where she says that she shut her 23 A. We can -- I can't remember if we saw them going out or I
24 locker and started walking with him, "Let's go to the 24 saw them coming back in. I think I saw both. I haven't
25 car and chill," that's not what she reported at all. 25 looked at that in a long time.

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1 So, when she reported to me, she reported that it is, 1 Q. And then -- but you can't see the car, I'm assuming,
2 and we went through that a number of times. And before 2 from the security footage?
3 she wrote the statement, I read back to her what it is 3 A. Correct.
4 she had told me, including this other piece about him 4 Q. Okay. And then did you also review the footage of them
5 putting his hand on her head, and she said that was 5 entering the building --
6 correct. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But when she wrote the statement, when she talks about 7 Q. -- or when they entered the building?
8 the locker part, she doesn't say he coerced her at the 8 And what did that footage show?
9 locker. In the statement -- the written statement she 9 A. Basically she came in ahead of him. She walked right
10 gave, she just says: 10 past the security desk and then walked to, I believe,
11 "I was at my locker preparing for class. 11 her locker and then to class. He walked in a few
12 I saw him coming towards my locker. C.L. was 12 minutes later.
13 around him. He approached me. I had shut my 13 Q. Okay. And so you reviewed that.
14 locker. I started walking with him. He said, 14 Was there anything else in terms of security
15 'Let's go to my car and chill.' Never did I 15 footage that you reviewed or just that?
16 think anything sexual was about to happen. We 16 A. Again, it takes a little time to go through all those
17 walked to the doors to leave the building." 17 cameras, as you can imagine, and try and figure out
18 She doesn't indicate in her written statement that 18 where they actually went. And because she had changed
19 he -- that she resisted. I mean, she just says she left 19 her story so many times, I wasn't quite sure where I was
20 with him; right? 20 with regards to what I was looking for. And so I had to
21 A. She doesn't. But I will tell you that she definitely 21 be diligent as I went through those pieces.
22 said that, and when I reported that to the parents, 22 So, once I did that, I called Mom. I talked to
23 that's the part that I reported because she sort of 23 Jane's mom. And at that time Jane's mom told me that it
24 reiterated that with them, as well, that it is -- that 24 is she had talked to Jane over the --
25 that had happened while she was there in the office. 25 Q. Just use "Jane Doe."

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1 kids to investigate without parents present. 1 student was alleging. So, you know, we have more than
2 After it became more than that, which was her 2 just misconduct going on. And so we went into another
3 second revised piece, I let her give that statement. I 3 office. It was probably about a quarter of a size of
4 had no idea it was coming. I let her give it, and then 4 this, maybe, and we were probably all sitting this close
5 I stopped until Mom got there. 5 to each other, so fairly close.
6 Q. Okay. And so when -- did you do anything else on Monday 6 Q. Okay. Was it just you from the district present at the
7 related to the investigation other than what you've 7 meeting?
8 already described? 8 A. Just me from the district, yep.
9 A. I don't recall, but -- 9 Q. Okay.
10 Q. Did you alert anybody else in the district about what 10 A. And John Roe and his mom.
11 was happening, the superintendent or anybody else at 11 And so -- I'm sorry -- John Roe came in. He also
12 this point? 12 gave a first statement where he basically said, "Well,
13 A. So, on Friday, I would have made contact with our 13 we went out to the car. We did meet up. We did go out
14 athletic director because he would have to tell the 14 to the car, but we went out to go look at my shoes."
15 coach that, you know, a parent was coming to pick up a 15 Q. Let me stop you there for just a second.
16 student. 16 You said, "He made a first statement."
17 Q. Who was the athletic director? 17 Are you saying before you said anything to him
18 A. Aaron -- God, this is horrible. 18 about what had happened he offered this, or had you
19 Setlak. 19 given him some background as to what had happened or
20 THE REPORTER: Excuse me? 20 what the allegations were at this point?
21 A. S-e-t -- Aaron Setlak, S-e-t-l-a-k. 21 A. I had already given those to his father, so I'm sure his
22 BY MS. SALVATORE: 22 father had already filled him in. And so I just asked
23 Q. Okay. 23 him to tell me what happened.
24 A. Sorry. 24 Q. Okay. So, you told Dad on Friday the specifics of what
25 Q. Okay. Did you notify anybody else at this stage as to 25 was alleged?

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1 what was happening or what the allegations were? 1 A. Correct.

2 A. Not at this point. 2 Q. And he had three days between when he knew what the
3 Q. Okay. And did the principal know? Had your principal 3 allegations were and when you actually interviewed John
4 been made aware at this point? 4 Roe before he responded to that?
5 A. The principal may have been aware because, again, 5 A. Yes.
6 remember we had included the police liaison officer. 6 Q. Okay. And so when you said, "He offered a statement,"
7 So, the other part of that was happening 7 he sort of -- did he have a written statement or was
8 simultaneously where I believe he was making contact 8 this a verbal statement he made during the interview?
9 with parents as well, again, separate and independent 9 A. So, this was an oral interview.
10 from what I was doing, but I believe he was also doing 10 Q. Okay.
11 that. 11 A. I just want to clarify, when you say "three days," for
12 Q. Okay. And at this point, as of the Monday following the 12 me it wasn't three days. For me, Friday was after
13 interview with Jane Doe, did you review any board policy 13 school. It was gone. So, we had Monday in which I was
14 or district policy at all at this point? 14 doing part of the investigation, and then on Tuesday I
15 A. I don't know what order I would have done it, but I 15 saw him first thing in the morning.
16 would have done it at some point during that piece. 16 Q. No, I understand. I understand you interviewed him at
17 Q. Okay. And anything else that happened Monday related to 17 the first opportunity. I'm just trying to establish he
18 this incident? 18 knew what -- the specifics of what he was going to be
19 A. Not that I can recall. 19 interviewed about for three days before he was actually
20 Q. Okay. And then tell me about what happened on Tuesday. 20 questioned about it; right?
21 A. So, on Tuesday, right at the beginning of the school 21 A. I would have informed his dad what it is she had alleged
22 day, John Roe came in with his mother to the office. I 22 without including her name.
23 wanted to -- I took them to another office to have a 23 Q. Okay. Okay. And presumably Dad told him what he was
24 conversation. Mom asked if she could be there based on 24 accused of.
25 the nature of the severity of what it is that the other 25 MR. CHAPIE: Object. Speculation.

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1 Q. Why did you do that? 1 Q. Okay. And did he write a statement, then, reflecting
2 A. So, Mom left. 2 that oral statement as well at that time?
3 Q. Wait. 3 A. He did write a statement. I don't recall its contents,
4 Why did you do that? Why did you tell her that she 4 but he did write a statement.
5 might want to think about what he's writing because 5 Q. He wrote a statement on Tuesday in front of you?
6 there's a police investigation? 6 A. On Tuesday, yes. Yeah.
7 A. Not because it was a police investigation; because it is 7 Q. And you maintained that in the school file?
8 that she was alleging that there was more. 8 A. Yes. As part of the recommendation.
9 Q. Because who was alleging there was more? Jane Doe? 9 Q. As part of the -- okay. And did you find him -- his
10 A. The girl, yes. 10 version credible that he told you and wrote out that
11 Q. Okay. 11 day?
12 A. And so Mom left with him for maybe 15 minutes. I don't 12 A. So, what was different was when I questioned him, I'm
13 think she actually left the parking lot. I think she 13 like, "Well, just because you said that sort of this is
14 went out and talked to him -- 14 happening, how do we know it actually happened?" Like
15 Q. Okay. 15 you're -- you know, "You're saying that it is that she
16 A. -- and then brought him right back in -- 16 initiated it, and that she asked you for it."
17 Q. Okay. Then what happened? 17 And he's like, "It's right here on my phone," and
18 A. -- to give a revised statement. 18 he took out his phone and he started reading what they
19 Q. And what happened then? 19 were.
20 A. So, then he gave a revised statement. And so this is 20 And he read those text messages, which were very
21 when he gave an oral statement again and then eventually 21 graphic in nature. And it specifically said exactly
22 wrote a final statement as well. 22 what it is that he was saying; that basically they had
23 Q. And what was his revised oral statement? 23 agreed to meet up. She had basically initiated and
24 A. So, his revised oral statement was basically that it is 24 said, you know, "I want to give you a blow job," or
25 that Jane Doe had contacted him the night before, had -- 25 something to that effect. And he read through those

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1 via text or Kik or whatever social media piece they were 1 text messages.
2 using and had told him she wanted to meet up with him 2 Q. Did you see them as he was reading through them, or did
3 the next day and give him a blow job. And he said, "Oh, 3 he just hold his phone and read them?
4 that's not really going to happen." 4 A. He was holding his phone. Mom was sitting right next to
5 And she said, "Well, yes, it is, and not only that, 5 him. I was probably this close to him. So, I don't
6 but I want to do some other things to you sexually as 6 know that I actually saw all of them, but, I mean, I was
7 well." 7 right there as he was reading through them.
8 And that it is that they had met up at the locker. 8 Q. But did you look at the screen, is my question, and
9 It was preplanned that they had decided that was going 9 verify that they were actually text messages that he was
10 to happen. They were going to meet up at the locker and 10 reading?
11 go out to the car. He had contacted his friend to leave 11 A. I did not look at the screen because, again, there could
12 his car unlocked -- his car door unlocked so that he 12 be pictures. There could be other evidence. There
13 could go out to the car. 13 could be other pieces out there that could be harmful to
14 And they went out to the car, and Jane Doe was in 14 all kids; right? To more kids than that.
15 the car with him. He said, she said, "Are we going to 15 So, we're trying to protect our kids when we do
16 do it?" 16 that piece.
17 And this is his version, different than hers. 17 So, I didn't actually take his phone and look at
18 She said, "Are we going to do it?" 18 it, but I could see he clearly was reading it. I mean,
19 And he said whatever his response was. "Yeah, 19 I was close enough to that. Mom was sitting right next
20 let's go." 20 to him. Clearly it was following a flow of exactly what
21 And so she, indeed, engaged in oral sex. 21 had happened.
22 When they were done. He said to her, "You should 22 So, then I said to him, "Well, can you tell me a
23 go in first." And so she did. She went in first, and 23 little bit more about this issue of the shoes?"
24 he waited a couple minutes and then came back into the 24 And he said, "Well, Jane Doe contacted me on Friday
25 building and went to class. 25 night to tell me that we were in big trouble. And she

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1 proceeded to tell me a story that it is -- that she said 1 copies of the texts or to make a mirror image of the
2 that it is that I had done -- that basically it is that 2 phone or to take custody of the phone for any reason?
3 she had engaged in oral sex and that she had had to 3 A. Traditionally, we wouldn't do that. Traditionally, the
4 report it to the principal" -- because I found out -- 4 police would do that piece as they're doing their
5 "and that she basically didn't want to do that but she 5 investigation piece. Again, I had the information that
6 had to." 6 he had provided in a statement.
7 And so he sort of asked her what she said, and so 7 Q. Okay. And he mentioned -- you mentioned that he said
8 she told him. And he said, "You accused me of rape." 8 that there was -- his friend had left his truck
9 And I think that he had gotten that piece from his Dad; 9 unlocked, and he had asked his friend.
10 right? Because that's not the words I used, but that 10 Do you know who the friend was, or did you ask him
11 was the words he used that I can recall as he was 11 which friend? Who was this?
12 reading through part of that text message. 12 A. He -- I can't recall if he actually told me who it was.
13 And she's like, "No, I didn't accuse you of that." 13 I probably asked him, and I probably had it written
14 And he said, "Yes, you did." 14 down.
15 And she said, "No." And basically went on to say, 15 Q. Okay.
16 "I did it willingly. So, it can't be that." And, "No, 16 A. Actually, I do know the answer to the question.
17 we're not going to press charges," and "No, that's not 17 He did tell me. I did write it down, and I went to
18 going to happen." 18 go call that student out of class, and they were not in
19 And so there was this whole text message that had 19 the building, so I couldn't get to them.
20 happened that they had -- over the weekend where they 20 Q. Did you ever interview that student?
21 had talked. And so he went through that piece as well. 21 A. I did not.
22 Q. Did he show you those text messages as well? 22 Q. Did you make any other attempts other than that day to
23 A. Again, he was sort of reading them as he went. So, I 23 reach that student for an interview?
24 didn't physically see them, but close enough to be able 24 A. I did one other time, but he wasn't available.
25 to know that that's what was there. 25 Q. He wasn't in class?

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1 And, again, very detailed and specific about the 1 A. Either he wasn't in class or he was out of the building.
2 fact that she contacted and so it is that they had come 2 They have -- students have multiple programs, so I think
3 up with this story about the shoes and agreed that they 3 one day he was on an activity which would have been
4 were both going to say the same thing, which is again 4 probably a field trip, and I think another day he was
5 what I got from Mom on Monday via phone and getting from 5 just probably in another building in another program.
6 him on Tuesday. 6 Q. Was it the same student who Jane Doe -- who had told you
7 And so that obviously was very different 7 had approached her in the hallway with John Roe, or was
8 information than the information that I had gotten 8 it a different student?
9 originally. 9 A. Different student.
10 Q. Did you ask for copies of the text messages at any point 10 Q. Okay. What about the male who approached Jane Doe in
11 in time from him? 11 the hallway with John Roe? Did you know his name?
12 A. I did not ask for copies of the text messages. 12 A. Is C.L. who you're talking about?
13 Q. And you didn't ask to retain the phone or take custody 13 Q. Yeah.
14 of the phone? 14 A. In terms of --
15 A. There's a police investigation going on, so they would 15 Q. At the time you knew who that was? I mean, he was
16 do that. 16 identified to you by Jane Doe?
17 Q. Okay. And he -- at the time he talked to you on 17 A. She did, yes.
18 Tuesday, he had not been interviewed by the police yet; 18 Q. Okay. Did you interview him at any point in the
19 correct? 19 investigation?
20 A. He had not. 20 A. No. Because there was no -- like on the video, it shows
21 Q. Okay. Did he tell you whether he had gotten a call from 21 basically that it is that they literally walk, and he
22 the police, or do you know whether he had gotten a call 22 just turns around and walks away.
23 from the police at that point? 23 Q. Well, but C.L. was there at the time when you say Jane
24 A. I don't know. 24 Doe claimed that John Roe pressured her into leaving the
25 Q. And is there any particular reason you didn't ask for 25 building; right? C.L. was there for that conversation?

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1 question. 1 Q. And so you didn't refer it for a Title IX investigation

2 But go ahead. 2 because you made an initial credibility determination
3 BY MS. SALVATORE: 3 about who was telling the truth there?
4 Q. You can answer it. 4 A. Based on the evidence I had.
5 A. So, that was after she gave me several revised versions 5 Q. Okay. And you didn't do a written report of your
6 orally. And then I told her I was going to call her 6 findings in this case; right?
7 mother of which she was very upset. 7 A. Well, I eventually did when I sent the report to the
8 So, she presented that information to me -- that 8 committee, when I made the recommendation, yes.
9 second set of information after she came back, which I 9 Q. Okay. And we'll look at that in a minute.
10 took very seriously. I would never not take that as 10 That was a form that you filled out essentially;
11 serious as I can. 11 right?
12 The kids are -- their rights are extremely 12 A. Well, I write a chronology, but --
13 important, and I want them to be protected and safe. 13 Q. Okay. You didn't make a report to the superintendent of
14 Q. And you understood at that point in time that that was a 14 your findings; right?
15 potential allegation of sexual violence; right? Or it 15 A. That committee report goes to the superintendent.
16 was an allegation of sexual violence under the school's 16 Q. Okay. Did you make any written report as to whether or
17 policy? 17 not you believe discrimination or a Title IX violation
18 A. I believe that, yes. 18 had occurred?
19 Q. Okay. But you didn't refer it to the Title IX 19 A. No.
20 coordinator? 20 Q. Okay. Did you keep -- did you view it at that point in
21 A. So, we have -- 21 time, at the time you were doing the investigation, did
22 Q. Just answer that question for me first. 22 you view what you were doing as a Title IX
23 You didn't refer it to the Title IX coordinator; 23 investigation?
24 correct? 24 A. So, I knew that I had to do the components of that
25 A. Not at that time. 25 investigation, and I completed all the components of

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1 Q. You didn't call Sharon Irvine? 1 that, yes.

2 A. Not at that time. 2 Q. Okay. And why did you not -- if you knew it, why didn't
3 Q. You didn't call Ellanore Evans? 3 you refer it to the Title IX coordinator for
4 A. Not at that time. 4 investigation?
5 Q. You did not follow the policy in terms of how a formal 5 A. Okay. So, you're talking about a timing. You're
6 Title IX investigation is supposed to go, did you? 6 talking about less than two days, which is why they give
7 A. So, the Title IX policy gives us two days in which to 7 us time to do that.
8 notify. 8 So, I'm in the process of managing multitude of
9 So, my two days were Monday and Tuesday. 9 things regarding this case, as well as we still have a
10 What I found by the end of the day on Tuesday was 10 whole building that we're trying to manage. So, I have
11 that that information was not correct. 11 other responsibilities.
12 Q. What information was not correct? 12 And, again, this was a top priority for me. I
13 A. That she had -- that she had not willingly participated. 13 don't want you to think it wasn't. But you're only
14 So, she willingly participated and she initiated. 14 talking about the equivalent of one day until I talked
15 Q. So, your testimony is that you did not refer it to the 15 to John Roe, and I talked to him at 7:30 in the morning.
16 Title IX coordinator for a Title IX investigation 16 So, really, literally over one day is what I had, and I
17 because you concluded she wasn't telling the truth, Jane 17 was doing all those other pieces, including getting that
18 Doe? 18 conflicting information from Mom about the shoes, which
19 Jane Roe? 19 was clearly an indication to me that something had
20 Jane Doe. 20 changed.
21 A. Well, she wasn't telling the truth. 21 Q. Isn't it, though, the job of the Title IX investigator
22 Q. That was your conclusion? 22 once an allegation is made to do the investigation, to
23 A. She wasn't telling the truth. 23 make the credibility determinations, to look at the
24 Q. Okay. And so you -- 24 evidence and to decide, is there a violation here or
25 A. The evidence supported that. 25 not?

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1 questions. 1 A. I didn't -- I didn't --

2 Once they're done asking any questions, they'll 2 Q. Do you know what the recommendation was at the time?
3 dismiss me from the meeting, and then they will look at 3 A. I don't because I don't -- once I'm out, I'm pretty much
4 everything else. 4 left out of the case.
5 Q. Okay. 5 Q. Okay. Did you recommend anything beyond expulsion or
6 A. And they will then have a chance to talk to the student, 6 just expulsion?
7 talk to the parent. 7 A. No. As a matter of fact -- yeah.
8 So, they'll get any more information that I might 8 So, traditionally, at the end of the chronology,
9 have missed, anything that might have happened. There's 9 I'll actually make a recommendation piece that basically
10 another opportunity for parents to be able to give any 10 says "Recommended for expulsion."
11 information at that point that they need to. 11 Q. Okay.
12 MS. SALVATORE: Let's mark this as Exhibit 8. 12 A. And that would have been the same for both students.
13 (Deposition Exhibit 8 marked 13 Q. Okay.
14 for identification.) 14 A. I don't see it on this piece.
15 BY MS. SALVATORE: 15 Q. Okay. At John Roe's disciplinary hearing, your
16 Q. Exhibit 8, if you look at the third page of it -- it's 16 recommendation was also expulsion; correct?
17 Bates-stamped 09 -- is that the chronology that you 17 A. Yes.
18 referenced a minute ago, that "Summary of Facts" 18 Q. And did you understand that the committee recommended
19 information there? 19 something else for him?
20 A. So, I didn't create this report. 20 A. I found that out later, yes.
21 Q. Okay. 21 Q. Okay. When did you find that out?
22 A. This came from the committee chair. 22 A. Probably a few days later.
23 It looks similar to how I would have presented, but 23 Q. Okay. And what did you understand that they recommended
24 without having my chronology in front of me -- 24 in his case?
25 Q. Okay. Did you present the same chronology for both 25 A. My understanding is that they recommended suspension.

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1 parties here? 1 He, again, no longer came back to school, which is

2 I mean, did you read the same chronology at both 2 basically how I found out because I had to facilitate
3 hearings? 3 all of his work and all that other stuff. But there was
4 A. Yes. 4 to be no participation in anything at all. So,
5 Q. Okay. And that committee had both written statements of 5 basically -- his school career basically was over, and
6 both students? 6 there was no opportunity to be able to recover that.
7 A. Yes. 7 So -- and during that time his mom, for example,
8 Q. Okay. Did you -- other than reading the chronology, did 8 tried to appeal not going to prom. And, of course, that
9 you say anything else at either of these two students' 9 did not occur. Obviously, we didn't allow him to go to
10 disciplinary hearings? 10 prom. He did not participate in prom. He didn't
11 A. Not that I recall. 11 participate in all night party. He didn't participate
12 Q. You weren't asked any questions by the committee? 12 in any of the end-of-the-year activities. He didn't
13 A. I don't believe so. 13 participate in walking at graduation. He didn't ever
14 Q. No. 14 get in school with his friends again as a senior. He,
15 And you didn't present any other information in 15 in essence, got expelled from everything that he
16 terms of what you did or didn't do? 16 possibly could have gotten expelled from.
17 A. I did not, no. 17 Q. You said Mom tried to appeal?
18 Q. Okay. Did anybody on the committee at the hearing ask 18 A. Mom tried to appeal to me for him to be able to go to
19 whether a Title IX investigation was done in this case? 19 prom.
20 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. Okay. She didn't file an appeal, though, with the
21 Q. Okay. And the committee, at the end of the hearing for 21 school board?
22 Jane Doe, recommended expulsion through second semester 22 A. No. She just called me and said, "Can he go to prom?"
23 of the 2015-2016 school year; correct? 23 And I said, "No."
24 A. According to this. 24 Q. And the -- but he did get a diploma from the school;
25 Q. According to this? 25 correct?

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1 A. Because he had earned his credits, yes. 1 minute and take a break?
2 Q. Okay. And that occurred before the criminal 2 MR. CHAPIE: Sure.
3 investigation was even completed; correct? 3 (Short recess at 1:27 p.m.)
4 A. Yes. 4 * * *
5 Q. Okay. And was there any discussion that you or anybody 5 (Record resumed at 1:42 p.m.)
6 else in the district had about whether the district had 6 (Deposition Exhibit 9 marked
7 options to at least defer the diploma until the criminal 7 for identification.)
8 investigation was done or for some period of time? 8 BY MS. SALVATORE:
9 A. I'm not aware of any of those conversations happening. 9 Q. Exhibit 9, is this the form that you filled out with
10 Q. Okay. Do you know what his academic record reflects in 10 respect to my client's disciplinary recommendation?
11 terms of any disciplinary action related to this? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. I'm not aware of -- I mean, it would be what the 12 Q. And when we talked earlier about whether -- when I asked
13 decision was made, but he's now graduated. So -- 13 you whether you had done any report of your findings, is
14 Q. Okay. But, for example, is it on his transcript 14 this the document you were referring to?
15 anywhere that he was suspended for sexual misconduct or 15 A. This would be the suspension form.
16 any other reason? 16 Q. Yes.
17 A. No. They don't traditionally put anything on 17 A. The chronology would be --
18 transcripts for any students. 18 Q. Oh, the chronology. Okay. Okay.
19 Q. Okay. Is it -- if you pull up his -- what's it called? 19 A. -- would be the report.
20 A. The discipline log? 20 Q. Okay. And this form is what purpose -- for what purpose
21 Q. Yeah. The discipline log. 21 do you fill out this form?
22 Would it be on there that that he was expelled or 22 A. This is to the let the parents know that it is that
23 suspended? 23 they're being suspended from school. And in this case
24 A. Yes. 24 that it is -- that I was, you know, making consideration
25 Q. Okay. And do you know if he has to report that in any 25 of an expulsion recommendation.

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1 fashion to colleges he goes to or whether there's any 1 THE REPORTER: Excuse me? I apologize.
2 consequences to that for him beyond graduation from high 2 A. That's okay.
3 school? 3 So, this form is to let them know that it is that
4 A. I'm not aware specifically to where he went. Each 4 they've been -- again, that I'm continuing pending a
5 college is a little bit different. 5 consideration for expulsion recommendation.
6 Colleges don't primarily contact us for that 6 BY MS. SALVATORE:
7 information, and it's not on the transcript. 7 Q. And the -- under Number 1, the infractions you've listed
8 Q. Okay. 8 are:
9 A. They may ask the individual students if there was any 9 "Sexual Harassment; Sexual Misconduct;
10 problems, and then ask the student to come in, but I've 10 Acts of Disrespect and Other Behaviors;
11 never really had that happen where a kid has ever come 11 Truancy."
12 in and asked for a copy of their discipline log. 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And the misconduct that you indicated to the 13 Q. What -- how is there a violation of the sexual
14 disciplinary committee that Jane Doe was being 14 harassment policy in this case, or why did you recommend
15 recommended for discipline for, was what? What 15 sexual harassment as one of the infractions?
16 violations of the school code? 16 A. I am going to refer back to the Student Code of
17 A. I would have to look at -- is it in here? 17 Conduct --
18 I don't have the paperwork, but -- 18 Q. Sure.
19 THE REPORTER: Excuse me? 19 A. -- because I would have referred to that.
20 A. I don't have any of the paperwork that went to the 20 So, the definition says:
21 committee. 21 "Includes but is not limited to the following:
22 BY MS. SALVATORE: 22 -Unwelcome sexual advances
23 Q. Okay. 23 -Subtle or overt pressure for sexual activity.
24 A. I don't want to give you the wrong terminology. 24 -Engaging in improper physical contact
25 MS. SALVATORE: Can we go off the record for a 25 -Making improper sexual comments, including

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