Babs DeLay Interview | Butch And Femme | Spirituality

What do you think of the queer community now? It's a log bigger than when I was growing up here.

I came to Utah when I was 15, and I went to Wasatch Academy, which is down in Mount Pleasant by Ephraim, a small private school where 150 students came from all over the world, so I didn't really have a good sense of what was in Utah. I transferred to college up here after I graduated, and people weren't really out just then, but there were gay bars, which were mumbled quietly. There was a woman's bar under the viaduct, where the Energy Solutions Arena is, and there was the Sun Tavern. And so you could get up your bravery and go down there, however, the Sun Tavern at the time, this was in the mid 70s, was a pretty popular place to go dancing for anybody, so that was most people's entree into the gay community, was sneaking into that bar under age, because it was really easy back then to change your driver's license by just cutting out numbers from the phone book and just taping them onto your drivers license. So we were sneaking into that bar, my posse, when we were 19. How did you hear about that bar? Just mumblings in the community. There's a great place to dance, what have you. When do you think there started being a change, when people started coming out more? It started changing in the 70s, because of the Vietnam war. There was the Black Panther movement, when people realized that most people going to Vietnam were people of color, and so the Black Panther movement was pretty aggressive, and violent at times, and it had, i think, a mass mentality that things were changing, and people were questioning, and so that's also the time when women's rights started being a number one priority for women, and the equal rights amendment and we all went to marches, and meetings, and trainings, and that sort of thing, and so i think with the women's rights movement, a lot more people started coming out and identifying as lesbian. What are the ties between this movement, and other movements? We just started questioning what was happening to us, what rights we had. When I started my career, my real estate career in 1984, women were still not allowed mortgages, if they had been divorced they had trouble getting credit cards, and we'd been fighting for women's rights for at least 10 years. Virtually every non-profit in this city that deals with women started in the 1970s. So the battered women’s shelter, the Rape Recovery Center… it was just this huge, wonderful soup of women getting together and men as well, and saying, there are some things that are amiss and wrong, and we need to start addressing this. and I think as more people came together, then

we started getting more terms… L, G, B, T… that didn't happen for quite a while. It was, you know, the gay movement, and Stonewall had a lot to do with that. We started verbalizing those words, and some of those power phrases, and identifying ourselves as gay. Queer wasn't a term that I remember when i was coming out. It was a slang term, it was, pardon my french, like nigger. You didn't say it. So that became empowered as the movement started to grow, some people identify as queer and that was really in your face. But back then, just to say you were a lesbian or gay was pretty bold. What about your own identification? Well, when I started going to bars, and there became women's bars, you either had to be a butch or a femme, and if you were in between you were kinky. And I didn't really fit into either one of those categories. Not because of how I dressed, I dressed very butch. But I also did cross stitch, canned, cooked, did a lot of really femme things. And so I was always leery of getting into trouble that, oh, that wasn't a butch thing to do. We were identified too by our costumes. Butches wore plaid vests, and femmes wore skirts, and we were often called the plaids or the skirts. Butches and the femmes. There weren't switches like there are today, where people will you know, gender fluidity. That was not acceptable. You'd get the hell beaten out of you, as a matter of fact. So it was pretty rigorously enforced? VERY rigorously enforced. Just by whoever was the you know, power butch of the time. I mean, there were constantly fights about it in the bar or out in the parking lot. where do you think that came from? Those stereotypes? People had very small grids back in the 40's and 50's and into the 60's and you acted in one way and if you didn't you'd probably get arrested. So it was much better to be a femme. And the phrase was you had to wear X amount of women's clothing in order to not be arrested, whether that's a myth or true, I've read both sides of that story, so butches were really taking it on to cross over those boundaries and take a lot of risk, no matter what. So by taking on a lot of risk, that became a powerful thing to do, and butches felt they needed to enforce that. That's my guess. Mind you, I'm not an expert. But that's just my guess back then. But I had a hard time with it. How did you come to terms with how you wanted to be in spite of this rigid boundary? I just gave up my butch. I just said, hey, I cook, I'm an artist, so deal with it. And I found women that supported me. There were also women in the 70s as the women's movement started to move on from its very beginning, to say you can be whatever you wanted to be, and if you started bad talking people for how they were behaving or the

things they liked, that wasn't a feminist thing to do. So a feminist, the definition, was you could be anything, and i think that helped a lot. It sounds like there was, in addition to the butch/femme divide, a divide between gay women and gay men. what is your take on that? I don't know that. I think Salt Lake is a very unique place, in that we have a very small minority of gay people, versus San Francisco, or Denver or Portland or Seattle or New York, what have you, so we all tended to stick together. There was one or two bars, maybe there were three. There was Radio City, which was I think the oldest gay bar in the western United States. So if there were events, we all went to our bars, men and women could go to the bars together, but as that developed and we got more bars, it became more, this is a women's bar, this a men's bar, although you can go from bar to bar. Whereas in other cities, that wasn't true. If you went down to the Castro in the 80s, there are men's bars. And women did not go in those. They were asked to leave. There still are bars like that. But it's ok. There just aren't as many women's bars around. So do you think that smallness, and the fact that queer folk in salt lake city had to band together more means that we never segregated ourselves into separate communities? We didn't. And we were ostracized so strongly. If you were out, you couldn't rent a place. You couldn't have a job. I was fired from my first two jobs because I was gay. We had no rights whatsoever. So it was not so good to be out. It became in my mind a little easier to be out if you were in the education system, at the University of Utah, at Westminster College, than it was being a blue collar worker working for Kennecott. I'm not sure back then that the unions were ready to jump on the bandwagon and say it's ok to be gay. So when you were fired from those jobs, how did they phrase that? The first one said, you know why. And the second one specifically said because you're gay. Did those experiences influenced the choices you made in building the career you have? Absolutely. My choice was I'm going to be self employed, and the only person that can fire me is me. And it's worked very well. “Costume” is a theatrical kind of term. What do you mean when people were in costume?

I use that, that's how my approach to life is. I have different kinds of costumes. Right now I'm in work drag because I'm at work. When I go out to the bar, I’m in bar drag. But maybe it's a different night, and I’ll dress differently for that. That's just my way of thinking. Everybody wears costumes. This reminds me of judith butler and performativity, and of gender begin a stylization of the body. Absolutely. Most of my friends are into body modification. Who knew. Why not? Is there tie-in? There could be. Just, as we all morph. As humans that are growing on this planet and learning more about ourselves and forming our community. Were there important early formative relationships? Sure. I had mentors, I had teachers that were very honest and open with me. most of them weren't gay. But they would talk with me knowing that I was gay, knowing what my growth issues were at that time. I think one of them I want to give props to was my first male roommate after I moved out of the dorms in college. He was a screaming fag. so stereotypical, he could barely hold his arm in place at any given time, because it was waving everywhere. And he had a bit of a lisp anyway… so he was hilarious. And he was quite the bar butterfly. And I thought this will be good I'm going to live with a gay man and the house is going to be clean all the time. This will be good.. and what I found out was that he spend most of the time in the bathroom making sure that he was perfectly coiffed. Which drove me crazy. But he was the one who said, you're a lesbian. Would you us stop it? Because I'd been bisexual all the way through mid college, and I said, what? People that call me a lesbian… I don't know anything about that. That's a bad term. I don't know. And he said, well, come out to the bar, and as soon as I'd come out to the bar, I saw a whole different world, a whole different vibe, I fell madly in love with a drag queen, who I could not be convinced was a man. Unfortunately Leonard died, he was one of the first people to die of AIDS, but being able to meet women who were lesbians, and drag queens, and gay men, that really was what pushed me out into the world. And then I ended up being almost raised by drag queens. I became a dresser, a fluffer for drag queens. I was the first drag king performer, at Radio City. And I hung out with drag queens, and to this day I'm a member of the royal court, and was in the first royal court. and I love my drag queens. I think the world would be a better place if it was run by drag queens. Because they get shit done and they're very bitchy. More fabulous. Everyone would look a lot better, that's for sure.

What role have drag kings/queens played in our community's history? I think most… I grew up… my mother would do fund raisers for a hospital every year, and she would get all the doctors to get in drag and perform. And most of them were bad drag. You know, look, that's a man dressing as a woman, isn't that funny. Some of them were a little better. So in the history of the United States drag was always just done for comedy. Then as I was coming out drag was not just for comedy, drag was serious. This was me being a woman. Wow, really, do you want to be a woman? No, I think I still want my naughty parts. Or some are in transition, and finding more and more people these days who are in transition, whether they are male to female or female to male, is quite the phenomenon. Not necessarily in Salt Lake. You don't find very many trans-men in Salt Lake City. But if you go up to Portland or Seattle or San Franciscio and you have a women's party, the rule will be, were you a woman, are you a woman identified now, or do you want to be a woman in the future. that's the rule to get in. And a lot of the trans-men come in in full beards, and have had their breasts removed, But they still have their girl parts. They perform as drag kings, or they're living that lifestyle, and they're quite happy with it. So I think how drag has made an impact on us, is it's certainly given us a lot of fun, but it's also opened our eyes to the core of how people feel about themselves, and want to feel about themselves in generally very positive and affirming ways, and I support that in any… Do you still perform as a drag king? I have not performed a as drag king in many many rears. I wouldn't say no, I just haven't done it. We have some great drag kings here in town, let the kids do it. I’m grandpa…Salt City Kings are great. So what was that like being an assistant helping the drag queens perform? Fantastic! Fabulous! You know, I was the one that schlepped all the clothes to and from the cars, or the bars. I couldn't help with make-up, as you can tell, I don't know anything about make-up. But I would fetch their fake breasts. I didn't help them tuck so much, but would help them straighten out things and what have you. And make sure the stage was right. It was awesome. And some of the drag performers we had in the past were so wonderful, and the ones we have now are so wonderful. And now it's interesting there's been a spin off of drag into the clown drag and those silly boys, oh my goodness. The Cyber Sluts? The Cyber Sluts. They just make every body laugh. And they also scare the hell out of me because they're 8 feet tall and glittery and hairy and want to hug me all the time. Is your mala related to a spiritual practice?

Yes. And my identity. I have been a metaphysical minister since, I believe 1982. And during the AIDS plague nobody would bury people, there were no ministers that wanted to do that. And so I started that to assist in all of the deaths that were happening. I mean, there were 5 funerals a week. It was really, really harsh. I had over 200 friends die of AIDS. So most of the men I know that are my age, they make me laugh, I tell them, I know you didn't have sex back then, because you're still alive. There are just a handful of men I know from that time that are still alive. They dropped like flies. And as they were dying, the disease would just change them into these creatures; one of my friends who died, the whole last week of his life, he was clucking like a chicken. You had the spots, people wouldn't get near anybody who had the cancer spots. Guys would go blind. They would get these horrible diseases in their eyes. Another way to identify somebody who had AIDS was they had a patch over their eye. They all looked wasted. The only thing they could eat was white food; oatmeal, white bread was the only thing they could keep down. It was horrific. And nowadays, I guess it's much easier to control with pills; people don't look like skeletons and it's hard to identify someone with AIDS because every gay man goes and works out and looks really buff so you can't tell who's sick. What does metaphysical minister mean? I basically believe everybody's right. I perform weddings and funerals and handfasting, and blessings, and I believe there are basic tenants in the universe that we all know and if you took 10 rules from each religion, they'd probably be the same. I don't have a ministry. I just provide ministerial services to people. I'm a pretty spiritual person, my whole life, and I don't go to any churches, but I will go to all churches. My spiritual path - I went from religion to religion to religion with my mother as a child. My father was a religious man. My mother just dragged us from church to synagogue to priest to this that and the other, so I just had this huge mix of information. And then when I went to college I turned to Tibetan mysticism and Buddhism for about 18 years, and then that became too rigid fro what I was believing and practicing, so I just started allowing more spirituality into my life. What sort of community to you find for this practice? Mine's pretty personal. I know that I’m called constantly to perform services for people. More so these days, weddings, and blessings, and handfastings, and funerals, but I did have to officiate at my best friends' funeral a few years back and that was pretty tough. And that was the epitome of being a thespian. Because you have to be on for an hour in front of 400 people and not shed a tear. And everybody was shedding tears. It was tough. And I marry people regularly at Burning Man. I'm a Burner.

There is personal crisis, and community crises, and those have spiritual effect on us. How do you think something like the AIDS crisis or oppression we've face, how has that shaped what our community/individuals/you looked like today? The AIDS crisis in Utah was, oddly enough, a fairly wonderful thing. In a sense that Kristen Ries, known as the AIDS doctor here in town, she made Time magazine. She was one of the first doctors to take this on and say I’m going to deal with this, I'm going to find out more about this. I had a doctor here in college, just a regular general practitioner up here on south temple, and I went in one day for a check up or what have you, and this was in the early 80s, and he looked like hell, like he had seen 5000 patients that day. And I asked him, what's wrong? He said, I don't know, but every gay man coming in here has swollen glands and a fever. And I remember that specifically. and bam, then the next thing there was this plague, and no one knew what it was. And then Kristen popped up and the nuns of Holy Cross came forward and said, we will take care of these people. And that's how we started the Sub for Santa Program with the AIDS foundation. Thye were, as were all people with AIDS back then, they were, go away don't touch me, don't hug me, don't come anywhere near…they needed help. They were so sick they couldn't get to the store, they couldn't get their proscriptions, they couldn't get proper shoes for the winter, they couldn't get food. And we started doing a lot of things like home health care. Like, I'm going to come by everyday and make sure you eat, or I'm going to hold your head or change your diapers or whatever we need to do. And I think the Mormon community here began stepping up as well, and seeing this crisis as more of us talked to our Mormon friends or relatives or what have you and they saw the devastation, and they got involved with the food bank and saying, you know we have extra peaches, would you like peaches? We have some extra clothes, would you like that? So our community in a way, became very positive in helping each other. I'm speaking from my own very small frame of reference; what I saw was good and healing and helpful. I'm sure there are a lot of stories out there that people can tell you of how they were thrown out of their families, thrown out of their jobs, thrown out of their communities, as soon as that happened. There are some very ugly stories. But my experience was, we were just devastated, every day pick up the paper, there had been another 3 people that had died, and people you all knew and loved, and it was harsh, it was very harsh. And we didn't know what to do. We had a lot of candle light services and wakes. There were funny wakes. One of my friends that had AIDS, he was a character, he went around in his last 6 months, he was just whack crazy, he was like a homeless guy, very psychotic. and his wake, I knew it was him, I walked in the funeral home, and there was his casket; it was open but you couldn't see him. so you had to walk around. as you walk through the room, there were christmas lights everywhere, and they were all around his casket, and it was an open casket. And they had him dressed in, you know, crazy 80s glasses, and make up on him, he was holding a cigarette, he had stuff all over him, if they could stand him up, that would be him. But there were also funeral homes that would not take cadavers of people who had died of

AIDS. It was huge for a minute; only this funeral home will help you or these funeral homes really won't touch this. And it was the same at the very beginning with hospitals too. They had some bad issues there. And I think people like kristen and her staff, and Maggie, and the nuns at Holy Cross, they really reached out and they helped. Those nuns are saints. Sound like good people to interview. If you can find them. They were older then, and they may be in little nunneries all around the country just, you know, in wheelchairs, just very feeble. The one nun that I worked with I believe is dead, she's the one that helped me start the Sub for Santa program. She - I had a friend, a hairdresser down by where Port ‘O Call was, there was a place called Haggis, there was a hairdresser next door, and he got very ill very fast as so many of them did, and he could not go to the store, and he lived by the Smith's at 9th at 9th and I ran into this sister one day, because I had worked in the hospital during college, in the morgue, and I ran into this sister and she said, “man, I don't know what to do - he doesn't have any shoes and he wants to walk in his tennis shoes in the snow over to Smith's and that will probably kill him.” I said, well, let's get him some shoes. And she said, he won't accept anything. I said, will he accept something from you? And she said, “why yes he will.” So I called some friends, we pulled some money together to get him some boots. Well, that sister. Within a week she was like, you know how you got those boots? You think you could get me some more? And by that Christmas she had five guys that really needed help and within, oh, I'd say 3 or 4 years, Sub for Santa, I think we had about 300 families, and they would give us a list of whatever they wanted, and we would get it. Whatever they wanted. From new TVs to VCRs to a plane ticket to new clothes, or just stuff for their lover, or for their kids, or for their mom. I would hand that list to someone and say, this person's going to be dead in 3-6 months, and this is their last request. And got it every time. We had to rent a semi truck the last time I did the Sub for Santa project the community was amazing. And it was the straight community by the way. The real estate community. The lenders and the mortgage community that I knew. They just went ape shit over this. They put together money, they'd spent 300-1000 dollars on a family, all new stuff. what are the most important issues facing us right now? It's the same thing I’ve felt for 10 or 20 years, is there are not enough mentors. I purposely go to the bars, I don't drink that much, but I will go out to theirs to see the drag queens or the drag shows, or see the kings, and just hang. Those kids come up and ask me questions that just, most of the time I want my mouth to fall open, but I force myself to just say, sure… Questions like, 'how do I write a resume?' questions like, 'where's the G-spot? My lover wants me to find her G-spot and I don't know where my G-spot is, how do you find that? Well, it's easy, let's go there. Connections. Or, "I'll never be able to go to college." It's one of my quiet passions in life is to give people

schooling, so over the years, I've probably helped at least 2 dozen people get into college, and finish college. They come from backgrounds where no one went to college. And they think, well I have a high school diploma, I can never go to college. Well yes you can. Well how do i do that? It's too hard, I can't figure it out. I don't have the money. Well, that's why they have grants and loans. Well, I don't know if I qualify. Well, let me call the dean and let's see. I know all the deans of the schools. Let's find out. The financial aid person at xyz school, I know them, let's find out. Ok, just take a few classes. It's amazing what can happen. But if you have that mentality you'll never get anywhere. No one's giving you better information. So that's my particular slant. What are we doing, what could we be doing better? I don't know. I think with our social networking now, we're rallying now, we're much more face to face with the press, if anything bugs us we're right there, we've got the stations there with microphones; we're doing a good job communicating. There are some national issues affecting us, there are local issues; that will always be. I look at it more, my goal in life is one to one, how can I help? I'm service oriented, how can I help? well, I have this crappy job, I work at McDonalds. Ok. Well, you're 50 years old and your kids are now out and you and your partner have been together for a long time, your partner has a decent job, why don't you go back to school? Or the kid who is 20 or 21 who really needs to know what the alternatives are in life to work and to school. A woman just e-mailed me from Moab, and I took her up to a big event, and she needed to change jobs. I said, well, come to this event with me, I'm going to have you under my arm here, and I'm going to introduce everyone to you, and you to them, so that when you start e-mailing your resumes, they will know who you are, and that I recommended you, and that you can get a better job through these resources. It's just that simple. Making a difference one person at a time. Why mentorship, out of all the potential issues? Well, because once you get partnered up you don't go to bars anymore, do you? And once you are established in your career why would you go to a bar? You'd rather stay home and watch TV. Oh yea, those kids, their music's too loud, or they're too wild, or that bar's too smoky, they're all drunks, I'm not going to go out. You gotta. You gotta go out and show them there are good role models in the community, that have careers, that you can get from A to B or B to C, and they can introduce you. It's about networking. In straight communities, they might have something like church, that has a very wide age range, but if our communities are centered in bars, we lose out on that; what do you think? If you go out, you know for my age I'm considered a cougar. Well, no, I have great relationships, I'm not going trolling for children down there. But I will sit there, and they know me enough to say, "how do you...?" "how can I...?" and I'll say, this is how I will help you, or let me get you in touch with so and so who will help you. "I just lost my

apartment and I don't know where to turn." Oh, I know a leasing company that is very gay friendly, or dog friendly or smoke friendly, or whatever. Stuff that simple. Core stuff. Just the basics of life. Money, a place to call home, and hopefully a career, or some some education. So is the key to solving that mentorship issue is for more mature queer people to step forward? That's helpful, sure. And they're doing that through the Center. There are all sorts of programs at the Center, and how a lot of people, from being a bar person, view the Center is it's great for the kids under age who don't have any place to go. I don' t know a lot of 40 or 50 somethings going to the Center all the time for programs. Life is too demanding, and people are struggling trying to keep their jobs, and raise their families, or get their kids schlepped around. So going to the Center for something, I'm sure the Center has a hard time getting participation in some of their programming, because people are so busy. Does the Center go down to the bars and hang out? No, not too often. They can set up a little table at a bar. That's not too conducive. But if the people from the Center all wore a little badge and said, tonight we're going to the Trapp Door, and we're just going to walk around and say hi to people and get to know people. That's helpful. And they do it sometimes, but you have to do it on a regular basis. Mentorship works in all walks of life, whether you're straight or gay. We have to start it one person at a time. I know a lot of people that are afraid of that, and they won't go to the bars anymore, because their relationship isn't secure enough for that. There are people who are out there. We need to be in the face of our younger community all the time. And show them that there are role models, and not only that I'm a role model; here's how to be one. Here's how you can get here. Do you have any closing statements? In the 70s and 80s we started a gay community center, and it was right next door to the Sun Tavern, the Sun Tavern that was where the Energy Solutions Arena is. And we started a newspaper, and I was the editor. It was call the Salt Lick. It was our late gay newspaper, you could get it at bars, and hand it out, and now of course we've had all sorts of gay papers here. And that community center went away, and several years later we got the center that we have now, which is terrific. Who knew we'd have some place that great; we really struggled in those days. When Anita Bryant came to the state fair, we used the Center and the Salt Lick and all the resources that we knew to spread the word that we needed to protest, non-violently, against Anita Bryant and her message. And we went out to the state fair and there were cops from every area in Utah surrounding that field, from highway patrol men to Provo cops to what have you. Because they knew it was going to be bad. And I would say there were probably about 50 of us in the bleachers there in the fairgrounds, and out came Anita Bryant and all we did was just stand up and leave. And they were just so worried that we were going to be

violent. And that was huge for us. It was very scary for us. We were always frightened of being beaten up by the police. That happened back then. If you didn't have a posse when you were leaving the bar the police could come up and harass you, and they would beat the hell out of you. We had a lot more gay bashings back then than we do today, although they're more publicized. But you know, if you got beat up, big deal. The press wasn't going to cover it. There was no way to get any of that, so you had to rely on your community to heal you or help you. When did the LGBTQ community became a political force rather than an underground scene? I don't know? Could it have been Harvey Milk, way back when? In our faces, telling us what we needed to hear? When did the term LGBTQLMNOP come about? I’m still trying to deal with all the descriptions of ourselves. I never get it right. Maybe I'm getting old and forgetful. I mean, I was a butch, that's what I was. now I’m transgendered and I'm a boi, b-o-i, i don't want to be a b-o-y, i'm more b-o-i - like. Great, I'm changing. I'm opening to our community, and what they are learning themselves, and I'm learning too, all the time. And how did we come about, and how are we growing? I think we're doing really well. And we can do better. We'll never do better if we keep the distance between the haves and the have nots, the older and the youngs, and if we don't break those barriers there, we're never going to unite. I mean, we can get together at Pride, that's a lot of fun, but the rest of the year, what are we doing for each other? Do you remember when the first pride events started happening? No, i know i was there. It's too long ago. ( think it was pretty small. I don't recall. I know I’ve been to almost every one of them. And San Francisco Pride - like ‘85, ‘86, ‘87, you went to San Francisco because that was Mecca back then. And people were always totally amazed that you were from Utah and there were gay people there. I still think that's pretty funny. Where are you from? Utah. Really? Gay people there? Yes, you know. But now, with Facebook, they go, oh, did you go kiss at the Temple? No, I didn't go kiss at the Temple. You know, we get to be the delegates all around the world. Yes, I'm from Utah and this is what it's like being gay. What I say about living in Utah and being gay is that I choose to live here. I could live in San Francisco, Portland, New York, anywhere, and I choose to live here for a couple of reasons. I have really really good Mormon friends. One of my daughters is Mormon and one of my daughters is Jewish. They don't live here. I appreciate all religions. I support people in their religious beliefs as long as they're not negative or violent in any way. And living in Utah, there's them and us, especially if you live downtown. So, I'm going to generalize here. But I know very gay, every Jew, every black person, in Utah. Whereas if I lived in San Francisco, I would not know so many people. But every gay, black, Jewish, all the minorities, we all go to the same events. So if there is an Echo event, you know, save

the earth, up here, we're all going to be there. If there's gay Pride, we're all going to be here. We go to the same restaurants, we do the same things, we support the same movie houses, the same local businesses. It's fabulous. We are not lost in the mass of a ginormous big city, and we gather together a lot, not us as gays, but as, say Democrats, all sorts of different minorities and it's wonderful living here, and it's so fascinating watching that dynamic of minorities and the general populations. I love it. So it seems the marginalization serves us a little bit? Oh, definitely. we have a better dialogue, I think, with liberal minded people and people kind of sitting the fence than we would in a big city where we can't reach everybody. If there's something hot at the Tower Theater everybody in town's going to be there in our groups, in all the minorities, versus the majority, no they're not going to drive in from Sandy and South Jordan with their five children to go to the tower theater. but the rest of us will, and then we'll all go over to the library for a free lecture from some Nobel Peace Prize person. Or a women's rally, or a gay rally, or it's African American month. It's terrific.

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