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So, if you want, could you please introduce yourself and kinda say what your relationship is to Utah, whether you grew up here or Mark: Sure! Well, my name is Mark Linell and I did grow up in Utah. I grew up in the Glendale area, actually, which is about 14thSouth and 13thWest. Yeah, I grew up here, I attended the local schools here. I did serve a mission for the LDS church, but other than those two years and a six-month stint in San Antonio for my job, I ve been in Utah all my life. Jeremy: What was it like going on a mission? I mean, obviously you weren t out at this point Mark: No, not at all. [Laughs] In fact, I didn t come out until I was, basically, thirty-, thirty-one, and that was kind of the turning point for me, anyway, in my life. But my mission was it was something that I chose to do. I wasn t forced or didn t feel that my parents had pushed me, but that I had made the decision. But probably wasn t the experience that I was anticipating, meaning that, basically, MY experience was that I d spent a lot of time taking care of other missionaries, if you will. So, kind of the problem Elders, the problem missionaries, the Mission President would send to me, so basically I kind of felt like I did two years of baby-sitting, versus what I was really there supposed to do. And it was difficult as well, because I had never been away from Utah before, so that was my first time and that was in Florida. And I remember being there and driving around and we drove for, you know, miles and I was like, where are all the Mormon churches? Because, to me, that was how things were, you know, every time you turned the corner, there was another LDS church and that wasn t the case in Florida. I had a difficult time at the beginning trying to just adjust to all that, being away from home for the first time, but eventually I did. In a way, that was kind of my experience but it was also a good experience in terms of that s when, really, my mind started to open to other ideas and to other cultures and other schools of thought and all of a sudden the world wasn t just Utah and what was going on in Utah, it was something new. For that part of it, I was actually very grateful, because I think that is, honestly, what put me on the path, which may sound kind of weird, it kind of put me on the path to where I am today. Jeremy: Mm. So, what are some of those things that it opened your mind to, specifically? Mark: I think just that it s really okay to have a differing thought other than what I had grown up with. My family was very LDS, everybody in my family was very active, including myself. And that s really all that I had every known. I hadn t been
exposed to other religions or other schools of thought and so in that sense, meeting other people from different religions, different parts of the world, I was like, wow, this is something that I had never been exposed to before. And I think, in that sense, I was like, you know, they don t practice Mormonism and they re still okay. It kind of opened the door that way. Jeremy: What is your relationship to the church now? Mark: Not practicing. I guess, technically, I m still my records, I think, are still part of the church. I m not active; I haven t been for a while. It was actually a kind of what drove me towards what I am today was that when I was, basically in the church, when you go from thirty to thirty-one, if you re single, which I was. I think by then I knew that I was gay. Well, I knew that I was gay but didn t really want to admit it to myself. But what happens is when you re thirty and you turn thirty-one, basically you are no longer considered part of the young single adults ward. You go to, I think it s Special Interests, is the name of it, or something like that, I m not even sure anymore. Really, it was that point that I decided it was time for me to make a choice. Because, I either am gonna be committed to the LDS church and do that and do everything that comes with: you know, getting married and all that kind of stuff; or, I m going explore this other part of me that, for years, I actually prayed to go away and never happened.
Really, that thirty- thirty-one point is when I kind of said, Okay, I think that this is the point where I m going to be grateful for what I have learned and gained from that, but at the same time just choose not to be a part of that anymore. And there was a whole I mean, I don t know how much you wanna get in to but there was a whole thing where I d actually go to LDS Social Services and to the Bishop and, even had opportunity to meet with a General Authority after my mother had written a letter to him. So, there s a whole history with that, if you wanna get in to, if not Jeremy: It d be interesting to hear. Mark: So do you want me to do that? [Laughs] Okay. So, this was, again, I was around twenty-nine, thirty, living in Draper and still at that point I don t even think I knew anybody who s gay. I mean, growing up, certainly I didn t know anybody, even in high school. I knew that I felt, or that I was different. But, honestly, I don t even think I knew what gay meant, because I really didn t know any role models at that time. I was going to church and doing all that kind of stuff and I remember that I had met somebody in Draper who I could tell that we were the same. That kind of I actually remember the first time kissing that individual and thinking that this feels right. You know innately, it felt right to me but I was still dealing with the religious repercussions that came with that, or guilt, I guess is the word to use. Because of that overwhelming feeling of guilt, I decided to go to my Bishop, which I did, and just say, you know, This is what s going on, this is what I m feeling, so maybe you re not the expert at this but maybe you can refer me to somebody who is. So, he did and that s when I went to see a counselor at LDS Social Services.
So, I started doing that and at the time I had never even really talked to anybody about what I was feeling or what I was going through. Meeting with him, basically, his advice was that I needed to be more expressive and that I should actually be talking about this with people, which surprised me, actually. I decided to take him up on that advice, because I think his philosophy is that if I shared that with other people, that it would become easier for me. Because, at the time, I was actually really sad, you know, that I was struggling with this and why I m struggling with this and why me and what does it mean and can God take this away from me or is this just who I am all those questions had come in the coming out process. He challenged me to do that and after thinking about it for a few weeks and getting up the courage, I decided to talk to my parents about it and I remember driving out to my parents house in West Valley, scared to death, not really knowing what would happen. My parents, and actually my family, are good people, but at the same time, you never really know how people are going to react to something like, I m like THIS. So, I got there and I was obviously upset and my mom was like, Well, what s going on? We went to the living room and sat down. Then I began to, you know, talk about that my entire life I had struggled with these feelings, with what the church had called SSA, which was a new term for me Same Sex Attraction and that this was what I was going through. Then my mom started to cry and no so much that because I was basically telling her that I was gay, but I think because I had carried that around for so long, you know, completely growing up and not ever sharing that or telling that with her or that; she was genuinely sad that I had carried that without ever letting her know. My dad felt that I just hadn t met the right one yet and, you know, I had been on multiple dates with girls, always a first date but never a second date. Anyway, that experience wasn t as bad as I thought that it would be. They ve actually been great about it. It s difficult, I think, for them because their generation my dad s seventy-eight and my mom s seventyfive and that generation, it s hard for them to even understand what gay is or what it means or what the community is about. So, I think that there are still some struggles there, but after that, my mom approached me and asked if she could write a letter to one of the General Authorities of the church. Well, and I was why do you wanna do that? And, she s like, I think it would be good for you to meet with them. I said that would be okay, thinking that the normal response is: work with your local priesthood leaders, your Bishop, your Stake President. And I m like, Go ahead and do it. She put the letter in the mail and three days later got a phone call from his secretary saying that he wanted to meet with me, which was very surprising. And at that time I pretty much had decided that this is who I am and this is who I m gonna be and that s that. But, I thought I would be interested, in terms of what he would have to say about it. We went and I remember going with my mom and dad and went to the administrative building, you kinda meet in the lobby and then, when they re ready they take you on an elevator upstairs and met with him. My first question was: why am I like this and what causes this? And his honest answer was, You know, we don t know what causes homosexuality, he says, we don t know that. Basically, he gave me some advice, in terms of, you know, that I should date girls with an active faith and that type of thing. But the one thing that he said that has stuck with me, he said, You know, Mark, you can either live a sad life, hoping for a few happy moments in between, or you can life a happy life, knowing that there will be some sad moments in between. And to this day, I still think about that, and I actually took that and used it probably not in the way that he wanted me to, but I said, You know what? I
am gonna live a happy life! And I think that that was kind of the turning point for me and the LDS church. Again, I don t hold any animosity or ill-will, but if I don t wanna do those things, or be in the club, then you don t be in the club. People have their own rules, clubs have their own rules, churches have their own rules. If you don t want to be a part of that okay, that s fine.Let s just separate. After that was when I really decided to explore. I remember one of my first experiences: I was looking at a magazine and then I remember and advertisement for a club called, Zippers and I don t even know if you remember Zippers, but Zippers I think that s where The Hotel is now on 2nd south and I remember it advertised that it was a gay club. Again, I still didn t know any gay people at this point. I was like wow, I think that sounds like something I wanna do. I remember it was a Friday night, scared to death I drove by myself to Zippers. It was a Friday night and I walked in and there was one person sitting at the bar and that was it. And I was like, okay, I guess everyone must be upstairs, cause I m like, where s the dance-floor? And I was like, well, it s upstairs. I went upstairs and there was nobody. And I said, I am the only gay person in Utah. [laughs] It s true! I AM the only one! I went back downstairs and I m like, is this how it is every night to the person at the front and she said, No, you really need to come back on a Saturday. Fridays, you know, there s not a lot of people, so come back on a Saturday. Then I thought, Okay, do I go back on the next day? I mean, I was devastated at this point. I m like, okay, well let me try this again. I went back on a Saturday and it was packed. And I was like, [sigh of relief] okay I m not the only one. [Laughs] So, I was very happy about that. There s actually a lot of people, and I was actually very surprised by that. I don t remember if it was that night or the next week after that but I met a person who was to be my first boyfriend. I ve had what I consider to be three significant relationships; that was my first one. Although that relationship ended, what I will be grateful for is, basically, I consider that person my mentor, because he was really the one he had been out for a very long time and he was really the one that introduced me to the community. I mean, I had no idea what was out there. He introduced me to that, he introduced me to friends, he introduced me to other people who were gay and it was fantastic, because for years I never had that; I never knew that existed, let alone in Salt Lake City, Utah. That was a very good growing time and growing experience for me. Still to this day, I would consider him, probably, the first mentor that I had in the community. Jeremy: So this was a little bit around the time you turned thirty, all this was happening? Mark: Mm hm. Jeremy: You said you were turning thirty to thirty-one, you made the choice of you were given the choice of I m going to stay in the church and I m going to go out with girls and get married and this kind of thing Or I m going to come out. What made you make the choice that you did? Mark: That s a good question. Probably, because, I at that point had felt like I had tried everything that I could possibly do.
Jeremy: So, you d exhausted all the alternatives. Mark: I think I had exhausted all the alternatives. I mean, I was very active, I went to church every week, I prayed every day, I did all of that type of stuff but nothing was changing. Although I would say I was happy, I had felt that something was missing. Honestly, I was lonely and I didn t understand why that gap was missing when, in my mind, I had been doing everything that I could possibly do to show God that I was committed to this, but still, here I am thirty years later, I still feel like there s a piece of me that is missing or that I m not being true to. I didn t want to go for another thirty years and be sixty years old and look back and have that same feeling, because, I don t believe that s what life is about. I don t believe that s what God wants. As soon as I had kind of made that decision, I was actually overwhelming a sense of peace that I had, that I wasn t experiencing, and that I have had ever since then. So, whatever I was searching for or whatever I was missing, I feel like now I have that. Jeremy: So when you talk about before you didn t have the language to describe what your experience was. I think I m really interested in how did you first, I guess, start learning the language. How did you start having a way to describe what it was that you re feeling? Mark: [Laughs] This is gonna sound really stupid. But, honestly, I think the first kind of images of what I remember, really came from pop-culture. I was a huge 80s music fan. So as those bands started to come out, like Depeche Mode and Dead or Alive and Culture Club, I had never seen before that were different from what I was used to seeing. So that, I think, was really kind of huge for me. I mean, I was a huge music fan. I remember on the weekend taking the number seven Poplar Grove bus to the Crossroads Mall to look at the new music that had come out, back, like the vinyl, which I still have a lot of the vinyl, back in the day. Those were kind of the first, I think, images when I think certain boundaries around gender were explored and that different, you know, that type of thing. So I remember those were kind of the first things that I remember. I also remember television, for example, I was a huge Real World fan and I remembered the very first season of Real World in New York there was a guy named Norm who was gay. Then the second season in San Francisco, Pedro, who was living with AIDS those were actually kind of the first people that I was, like wow, these people are [laughs] these people are gay. So, that, I think, was when I first started hearing that language and kind of learning about that, was basically from the media. Jeremy: Do you remember the specific images, like in the first band that you were listening to that might ve stood out to you? Mark: Well, I think certainly Dead or Alive, with the image, the guy, long hair, purple robe; Boy George, you know, make-up on guys; I had certainly never seen that before. That type of clothing So I think that those are some of the strongest images that I remember. Jeremy: Cool. [Discusses the need for a clock]. Yeah, that s really interesting. So, Zippers was the very first gay club that you had ever been to, and obviously, Zippers is no longer in existence could you describe a little bit about what that was like inside, what the experience of it was, you know, what the crowd was like.
Mark: Well you know, keep in mind that I m walking in with this huge sense of fear, at first. Because, I didn t even know, in terms of language, I don t even think I knew how to communicate with someone else who was gay. I remember walking in and at the time I still didn t even drink alcohol, but I loved to dance. Really, that was kind of my main thing: let me go, and you know, dance and see what this was all about. I remember a lot of laughing; I remember people drinking; and I remember thinking, I wonder if I ll ever drink something? [Laughs] Jeremy: And you did. Mark: Yes, the answer is yes Not that night, though, interestingly enough. I remember that there were a lot of people dancing; and men dancing with men. And I had never seen that before. And honestly, at first it kind of freaked me out a little bit, because I m not even really sure if I was prepared for that. Because on one hand I was like, wow, these guys are dancing with each other and on the other hand I was, like, wow, these guys are dancing with each other! I danced, I loved the music; the music was great. I think I was just kind of getting my bearings, really, and understanding all of that. Still scared to death if somebody came up and talked to me. I didn t have the courage at that point to approach anybody or talk to anybody. I didn t know what I d do if somebody approached me or talked to me. So that night, I don t even really know if I even ever talked to anybody. But I remember the experience was good enough that I wanted to go back; and when I did, somebody did come talk to me and afterwards asked for a ride home. And I was like, what s the etiquette? Do you do this, do you NOT do this? But I did give him a ride home. He invited me into his apartment, and again I m like, do I do this, do I not do this? But I did nothing happened that night but I remember going to his apartment and you kind of have this first-time thrill of doing something that this is new and this is right; but at the same time, not having any experience with any of that. I remember just sitting on the couch and just watching TV and I think we held hands it was nice. I called him back and we had our first date after that. That relationship lasted for almost a year. Jeremy: First relationship lasing a year! That s quite the accomplishment. Alright, so you said that was one of the first of your significant relationships and you are currently in a long-term relationship wanna say a little about how that got started? Mark: That got started Jeff and I, we actually met on Gay.com. We had been online and had been chatting and decided that we wanted to meet. So, we had our first date and it was actually pretty amazing. Everything that we have in common: both have similar backgrounds growing up; both had just some similar work interests and, really, I would say from our second date, it just felt really comfortable, to be honest. And it didn t feel like it was work. So, we connected pretty quickly, which can sometimes be good and can sometimes be bad. And in this case, it turned out to be pretty good. And I think that we were both looking for the same thing at that point: we were both looking for a long-term, committed relationship. That s kind of how things started. He told me that he had been married before; he had been previously married and had two kids. That was something that was new for me, because, with my first two significant relationships, there wasn t that element but with this one there was. It s actually been great. His family and extended family all live in American Fork, so he s very lucky in the fact that he has still a very good relationship with his ex-wife. We have the kids two times a week: Wednesdays and Saturdays; and it s been good!
Jeremy: And how long have you been together? Mark: It will be five years in February. Jeremy: Wow. That s a loooong time. So, you say that you met on Gay.com; what do you think has been the significance of the internet, I guess, in your personal socializing and in broader aspects of the gay community? Mark: That s a good question. I think that the internet can be used for good and I think that it can be used for bad. I think, in my case I mean, on Gay.com you can pretty much find whatever you re looking for: some people are looking for certain things and some people are looking for other things. I think the great thing about the internet is that you can actually see how big the community is. When you see, especially now, all of the groups and very specific gay groups, you can pretty much find anything that you have an interest for. On the other hand, I think that it gives people a certain sense of anonymity that I think can be bad sometimes. I think it can be used to manipulate and I think it can be used to hide behind as well. So, I think it can be used for both good and bad. For me, I mean, again, it was good to just show that there IS a community out there and that type of things. Again, I think the internet, in terms of what certain political organizations are out there: Equality Utah or the Utah Pride Center or, you know, social organizations that can immediately reach hundreds or thousands of people to rally for a certain cause, I think is great. Jeremy: So what is your current, if we can talk about - You seemed to have little animosity toward the LDS church, which I think is a little bit unusual in a lot of gay people. I guess I asked earlier what your relationship with the LDS church is and I think I now want to ask a little bit different kind of question as to what your relationship to spirituality or religion or God is, in general. Mark: Okay. If you were to ask me, I would say that I still feel like I have a connection with God. I still believe in prayer and I guess, ultimately, I believe that our whole purpose is to be happy; and I believe that if I m doing that and if I m not hurting other people, then that s something that I feel right about. I think that spirituality is important. And I think whatever it is for you is right for you. And so, you know, that s why I say I did have a problem with the whole Prop 8 thing, because that was, really, for me, that the Church had sort-of stepped into an area that I had not seen them step into before. When I say that I don t have any animosity, there may be some now, because of that specific issue. But I hadn t experienced anything like that before. It was always government is this, and so it was weird for me to see them step into what was going on in California. So, you know, if I can t get married in your temple, that s fine I completely understand that. But for you to say that I can t get married to my partner civilly in the State of California, I did have a hard time understanding that. So, that is something that I do have an issue with, currently. But, in terms of spirituality, I think that that is important. Again, I think for me there is a sense of I don t know if it s peace or actualization or whatever people wanna call it I just find that believing that there is something bigger out there, bigger than all of us. You know, some people call it God, some people call it the Universe and people can call it whatever. I think that it s important to have some type of connection with that, whatever it may be for you. Jeremy: So, you talk about Prop 8 kind of being the first real transgression that you d think about well, maybe I m putting words into your mouth. But, what was it about
Prop 8 that was so special and a departure from the way the church had been dealing with same-sex attracted people? Mark: That s a good question. I guess that I had just never seen such a huge political push to take something away from somebody that, to me, was not really a religious issue but more of a civil issue. I mean, certainly, the LDS church thinks that homosexuality is wrong and a lot of churches think that. Again, I guess, from the examples that I had in my life in terms of family, in terms of friends I think that I m very lucky in that I haven t really experienced a lot of discrimination or been turned away from relationships when I came out. For me, I was like, okay well, that says something. If you wanna have your rules, that s fine, you can go your way and I ll go mine. But, this was kind of the first sign that I saw them step back into and issue that, again, I felt was a civil issue. So, I didn t understand why all of a sudden and just, I guess, the ferocity in terms of how it was executed was surprising to me. I had heard the sermons and the talks about do this and do that and keep the commandments and all that type of stuff. But I had never seen such a push from something that I felt like really wasn t a place where they should be treading. Particularly, again, growing up, politics were supposed to be kept separate from religion; politicians couldn t do their thing in the church and in the wards and that type of stuff. So there was always a very, what I felt was a line between that, so when I saw that being crossed, I didn t it was confusing and I didn t really understand it. Jeremy: You talked about your first boyfriend being a sort of mentor figure. Have there been any other mentor figures in your coming out process or coming into yourself as a gay person. Mark: Yeah. I would say my second boyfriend. As I ve mentioned, I ve had three significant relationships. My current one is with Jeff. But my second one it was interesting because my first one, I think introduced me more socially to what was available and culturally the second one, I think, more politically. Because at that point, I wasn t really involved in politics or anything like that, or even understood anything about that. My second boyfriend was very politically active and politically motivated, really helped me understand in terms of neighborhood caucuses how you get elected. The Stonewall Democrat party; he took me to those meetings and that was really the first, I guess, exposure that I had in terms of politically what was going on and what was available in Salt Lake. I ve considered him a mentor as well, because that s where I first started understanding about how to make a difference in the community. Equality Utah; I think he exposed me to Equality Utah and what they were trying to do. I think that that helped me to want to be more actively involved politically, which has happened. I ve volunteered a couple events for Equality Utah; I walked for Scott McCoy; volunteered at the Utah AIDS Foundation and I wouldn t have known of any of those sort of services or things available if it weren t for him. He would be my second mentor, I would say. Jeremy: What was the importance of political action for you? Mark: I think that it s hugely important and, you know, something that I wish more of our community would be involved with. I think it s all so there s an education piece; I mean, certainly, I m not the most educated person, in terms of politics. But you know, I ve been able to learn, in terms of what are some things that you can do, something as simple as setting up on the HRC alert list, you know, getting an email saying: Write your Senator about this specific issue. I didn t know that that existed and there may be other people in
our community that are not aware of that. But, you get enough people together, their voices, you know, could be heard. The number of people that turn out for Pride is usually 15 to 20,000 people. Imagine if we could get all those same people to, you know, take some sort of political stand or be up at the state capitol when our legislators are making decisions. I mean, I think that there s a huge opportunity out there that if we could tap into and I think that that ground work is being laid, and particularly with the events that have happened over the last couple of years, which has been exciting to see and, you know, even some things going on in Salt Lake City that, you know, I never thought would ve happened when there was that march around, you know, Temple Square. And, again, going back to technology, to be able to coordinate something like that in a short period of time. I mean, I think that there s a lot of opportunity to do some good. Jeremy: Sure. And kind of as a segue into that: you re involved with the DASH study; do you wanna talk a little bit about what that is? Mark: Sure. The DASH study is a study that is being conducted by Dr. Huebner at the University of Utah and it stands for: Diverse Adolescents Sexuality and Health. We are looking at the population group of 14-19 year olds, basically youth who identify as GLBT Q. To really kind of understand what their experiences have been like, being a gay teenager, looking at their family life, how they talk to their family, friends and teachers about being gay and if so, what was their reaction? Do they feel like they ve been discriminated against? Looking at health practices. If being out and gay causes discrimination, does that cause other risk behaviors, such as unprotected sex, drug abuse, those types of things, and if that is indeed going on, then what type of resources can we provide here in Salt Lake City to help that particular population to work through all that. I mean, high school is bad enough without having to deal with this extra issue. That s sort of the purpose: to be able to have the data, to write grants, to get funding, to continue to have resources like the Utah Pride Center, like TINT and hopefully be able to get more resources like that in Salt Lake. Jeremy: Sure! Have you had any sort of, I guess, preliminary results on any of the data or are you still in the collecting stage of that study? Mark: That s a good question. The collecting stage So the same study is being run in other cities, like Oakland and Philadelphia and here in Salt Lake. But right now, we re just in the preliminary stages. I think the plan is to run it through the end of this year and then take a look at it in 2010. Jeremy: Cool. So is DASH kind of a national study, then? Mark: I know that it s done in four different cities, so I don t know if it will be done in more or that type of thing. But, I mean, pretty much from East to West. Jeremy: Cool. So, I guess, because you are kind of in this field, what do you think some of the greatest challenges that queer youth are facing today?And so, when we talk about, you know, writing grants to get support for them, like what kind of support do they actually need? Mark: That s a good question. I would say that a lot of the support is just in terms of how do you come to terms with who you are and how do you have the courage to be okay with that?
How do you have the courage be your own person without letting outside noise and influences tell you who you are. And so, I think just helping kids through that: providing safe places that they can go to and talk about that; helping them know that there are other people like them. I mean, growing up, as I said, I didn t even know anybody else who was gay and to even think that back then that there would be a gay-straight alliance club available, I can t imagine that when I was going to high school. So I think that those types of things are good but I think just those types of resources, helping them understand how to make healthy choices that will not impact their health negatively, down the road and why it s important, you know, to make good choices. I think are probably the best things that we can do for them. Jeremy: Sure, but what might that look like, teaching someone else how to make good choices? Mark: [Laughs] What might that look like, teaching them how to make good choices? What does that look like from a resource perspective, or ? Jeremy: Yeah, I guess from a resource perspective and from somebody who s potentially in a mentorship position. How do you go about teaching someone something like that? It might be a difficult question Mark: [Laughs] Well, it s a good question but it is a difficult question, because you see some of the kids today making bad choices and you want them to make good choices, but sometimes it s hard to get through to them. I think that, in terms of what that looks like, is I think that, kind of what we talked about earlier, you have to have good mentors in your life. I m grateful for mentors that I ve had and I think that they taught me a lot of positive things. In terms of what that looks like, I think having a resource or a community or a pool of people for our youth to look up to I mean, we have some great people in our community. I m not sure. You know, the teenagers are getting exposure that would be good for them to have, our key leaders in the community. I think, in terms of what that looks like, is: Okay, these are the choices that you re making right now and these are the impacts down the road that they re going to have for you. Let me show you this other side and these other choices that you can make and the potential that you have by making these healthy choices. This is what s available and that type of thing. Jeremy: Why do you think the youth aren t having access to mentors? Mark: [Repeats question to himself] I don t know why. I don t know why; that s a good question. I don t know if it s just a matter of that we need to reach out more or that people are just, you know, we re so busy trying to understand or run our own lives that it s just a matter of making the time to do that. I ve had which has been fairly minimal in the TINT/ Pride Center right now. There s a lot of good kids out there that are trying to do the right thing. I don t know if we just need more specific programs, you know, like specific mentor programs. I know there are programs out there like Big Brothers, Big Sisters and that kind of thing, but I don t really know if there s a specific focus for gay youth. Maybe that s something that we can work on. Jeremy: Sure. Cool, well our time is just about up. Did you have any other topics you feel that you wanted to talk about that you didn t get to?
Mark: I don t. Nope, not unless you have anything.
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