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Email Exchange on Campus Concealed Carry Between Jack Burch, CEO, Hill County Shooting Sports Center, and

Dr. Bill Holda, President, Kilgore College For further details, see: Dialog on campus guns helps clear up perceptions, the Gun Rights Examiner column for Dec. 3, 2010, at: Presented in chronological order.
From: Jack Burch Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:21 AM To: Bill Holda Subject: Campus Carry Dear Dr. Holda, I do not assume that you will read this email nor reply but I thought I would give it a try anyway. Before I get to the subject I give you my word that I will respect your right to not agree with me and I will not berate you for your views. I would recommend that in the future you research your subjects before commenting publicly on them. I have found that I have to be very careful in front of the press and public so as not to be quoted incorrectly or misunderstood. Even on their best days the press tend to misquote horribly. Now to the matter at hand. I have the great pleasure of teaching kids of all ages. We generally see kids as young as 4 and as old as, well if they can walk we see them. You see I am the executive director of the only Olympic Training Site in the United States for shooting sports. We see them all. I would tell you that the kids we see from 4 -24 are the most disciplined users of firearms. These are the very kids who would be interested in obtaining a Texas Concealed Handgun License. These kids teach "adults" at our facility a thing or two about firearm safety. The real question brought forward about campus carry is will it give more security with an acceptable level of risk. To determine this we must look at the population expected to carry. Of course there might be persons above 24 that would choose to carry and the figures from the latest FBI report on crime shows that this age group, who are licensed, is 5 times less likely to commit a crime than the rest of the population. When you look at the age group of 21-24 the report shows that those young adults, who are licensed, are equally less likely to commit a crime. So it appears that the population who would in fact go through the process to obtain a Texas CHL are of sound mind and good moral character. These are the exact type of folks who carry now in public places today without incident. These 21-24 age group do not pose any higher threat than the over 24 group and therefore can be trusted on campus. Are Texas CHL holders trained enough to be trusted to carry in densely populated settings? If we look at statistics the answer is a resounding yes. When looking at all the self defense shootings in the State of Texas by CHL holders the incidents of collateral damage is surprisingly low. The incidents of innocent bystanders being injured is nonexistent. Keep in mind that statistically 79% of all police officer involved shootings end in the officer missing their first shots. Not so with Texas CHL holders. Recently in my home town of Kerrville we had an officer(s) involved shooting that occurred at less than 20 yards and of

the 28 shots expended by the police only 3 hit the bad guy. Of those one hit him in the foot, one in the arm and the last one was in the chest by an officer with a patrol rifle. I could give many such cases but you get the point. Law enforcement is no better than the general public at making accurate shot placement in a stressful situation and in fact case studies of shootings in Texas by CHL holders show that the Texas CHL holders fare much better. Do Texas CHL holders use this force with great care? Again case studies show that Texas CHL holders of all ages tend to use great restraint in the use of deadly force. This indicates an unwillingness to harm their fellow humans unless absolutely necessary. In the end there is no compelling evidence that Texas CHL holders of any age pose a threat to the safety of fellow Texans and in fact the 400,000+ Texas CHL holders have an exemplary record of doing right in a bad situation. Does the introduction of a firearm into the learning environment of a college campus in any way harm the ability of students to learn or professors to teach. Just as with the areas of theaters, library, grocery stores and other populated areas it is a resounding no. Keep in mind that these are concealed handguns not open carry. I have carried since 1 January 1996 and in all that time I can clearly state that there have been only two times my gun was noticed by anyone. One of those times was while using it in self defense. I carry about 98% of the time I am away from my home so you can see that I carry a great deal. I have yet to see another Texas CHL's firearm in public. I should point out to you that I am a licensed Texas Concealed Handgun Instructor so I look for these things. So we have 400,000 Texas carrying and it does not seem to be making the general public uncomfortable. I understand the discomfort this subject is to some but the cost benefit ratio on this is heavily weighted to the side of allowing honest decent Texans to carry. Did you know that law enforcement took 12 minutes to respond to the Virginia Tech massacre? In that time Cho had time to go back to several rooms and shoot more victims and in one case shot a young man 4 times on 4 different visits to that room. Could you imagine the horror of having to endure that? Would a licensee have been able to stop the carnage? Maybe, maybe not but as a citizen I recognize that LE may take minutes to arrive when I only have seconds to save my own life or that of others. In these types of incidents we, the people, are the first responders and law enforcement are secondary. I hope you will look at all the evidence in this to help you make an informed intelligent decision. Thank you for your time, Jack N. Burch II CEO Hill Country Shooting Sports Center Kerrville, Texas

From: Bill Holda Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:20:16 -0600 To: Jack Burch Subject: RE: Campus Carry

Jack: Thanks for your email. Your email was one of the most thoughtful and informative I have received. Most of the emails just called me an idiot and a liar and hoped that I would be a victim of violent gunfire. You are correct that I needed to be careful of my comments, particularly how they were presented by the press. You are correct re: my inaccuracy re: the Killeen shooting. I could not remember the details and referred to that incident out of ignorance. I did an additional interview two days later with KETK and acknowledged that I was incorrect and apologized for any harm that was done. I continue to have concerns about the proposed legislation. I have been reviewing the information on the Violence Policy Center website; there one can see a list of innocent individuals who have been killed by the licensed carriers of handguns. We often do not hear about this side of the story - that concealed handguns are not only used for protection, but have been used inappropriately on occasion to kill innocent individuals. Additionally, I have been criticized re: my comments regarding the access to the House and Senate galleries during the past two session, see this information from Alice Tripp, Legislative Director of the Texas Rifle Association, as she recounts the galleries of the House and Senate being off limits during the 2007 and 2009 sessions. She is hopeful that those signs will
not be posted this session. If the concealed handgun issue were so universally safe, why have the House and Senate exercised their administrative rules to prohibit them from the capitol galleries in both 2007 and 2009? While it is true that the Texas State Preservation Board does not limit the access to the State Capitol, the house and senate administration committees were able to invoke and post the PC 30.06 signs which prohibited concealed hand guns from certain types of governmental meetings. Those handguns were prohibited in prior sessions from the galleries the many times I was there during both sessions. I still have other unanswered questions, and there are several: one is -- how do our colleges which host TEA certified Early College High Schools on their campuses reconcile the higher education access with the federal legislation requiring the public school environment to be gun free? How do extensions of our campuses located on high school campuses become affected? Last session, the Joe Driver bill, in one of the hearings as it was working its way through the legislative process, was going to require us to provide secure storage (gun safe) in our residence halls. While the State did not post a fiscal note to the bill, since it was not costing the GR budget any $$ directly, it was going to be a cost to the local institutions. David Simpson has emailed me that he is going to try to secure a committee substitute for the bill to require the carrier to be responsible for checking the weapon. However, the residence hall issue still needs to be resolved for higher education, regarding the ways the handgun is stored. Our own campus Chief of Police, as well as the Chiefs of Police at most institutions of higher education, voiced their concerns not only during the last session, but also again this past month. Personally, I support an individual's right to carry a concealed handgun. I believe it is ill advised in our environment. If it is so universally safe, why did both the Driver bill and the Simpson bill contain the

exemption for athletic events? Why not allow them at these events also? Is it a product of athletics or the size of the crowd? If the size of the crowd, what about commencement exercises at the football field with 5,000 attendees? I welcome the diversity of opinion on this issue and your comments as well. Bill Holda William M. Holda, Ed.D. President Kilgore College From: Jack Burch Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:52 AM To: Bill Holda Subject: Re: Campus Carry Dr. Holda, Could I have permission to share this email with others? You bring up several valid points that need to be addressed. To not address them would be reckless. Being able to use your email will help this process. I will tell you that I have another motive, I will not tolerate bullying. To have someone say that they hope you are a victim of gun violence is just that and it is unacceptable in our society! If the legislature will not listen to you perhaps they will listen to both of us. Jack From: Bill Holda To: Jack Burch Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:07:55 -0600 Subject: RE: Campus Carry Absolutely! Jack, given the broad based support for this legislation last session, I truly believe it will pass. During the past session, the only reason the bill did not pass was that the House ran out of time, after they spent weeks on voter ID. Given the fact that it will likely pass, I would like to help shape the legislation to the point where it is manageable. My two main concerns: (1) how do we handle the residence hall issue? If students check their own handgun, how do we keep unauthorized roommates and/or others from coming into the possession of the handgun? I don't think we have had the type of discussion we need on this issue. (2) how do we handle the Early College High Schools (and perhaps the dual credit classes) on our campus? Colleges like Richland (in Dallas) and others throughout the state, have entire T.E.A. certified campuses on their own facility, and so I think we need to see how State legislation intersects with Federal legislation. One other thought I have re: the legislation -- how practical is it to have the licensed CHG student let our own police force know that they are a licensed carrier and will be bringing their CHG to the campus on a regular basis? Thanks for reaching out; this has been refreshing. Bill From: Jack Burch Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:16 AM

To: Bill Holda Subject: RE: Campus Carry Dr. Holda, I've had a chance to read the bill introduced by Rep. Simpson with respect to your concern on storage of firearms in the dorms. It specifically leaves this issue up to each of the institutions as to how firearms will be stored in living quarters on campus. I am researching how Utah handles this issue and will report back to you ASAP. Jack From: Jack Burch Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:00 PM To: Bill Holda Subject: RE: Campus Carry Dr. Holda, Please see my responses below. Jack From: Bill Holda To: Jack Burch Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 10:49:58 -0600 Subject: RE: Campus Carry

Jack: Rep. Simpson told me that he is going to ask for a committee substitute which puts the burden for checking the handgun on the carrier. I agree with Rep. Simpson that the responsibility should be on the licensee but the institution should have the ability to set standards of safety. Below I have pasted some suggestions from an active licensed carrier, which he believes should be implemented as part of the legislation: Thanks for your feedback. Below are the comments of a LCH person who emailed me. Bill
Regarding residence hall storage, I don't see why that is the responsibility of the school. I would suggest that if any student, licensed, wants to carry on campus, he should meet a requirement list. He must: Please note that this person is using two standards here. 1&2 apply to all and 3-5 apply to students who live on campus. 1. Provide you with his license long enough for you to xerox it and return it to him. Not sure his reasoning for this. If your police department has arrest powers they have access to the data thru DPS to find out if a student is licensed. Seems like more paperwork for everyone that is already available to your department. 2. You should note the expiration date on it, and make sure they give you an update on their birthday if it expires during the term. Perhaps requiring the student to be responsible adults would be better. In addition what will you do for faculty, staff and the public? The hardest part will be the public. I would like to hear a discussion on the merits of "allowing campus carry" versus mandating it. In other words as the law is written today a business owner can prohibit carry by posting the 30.06 sign but it is up to each business to decide. Perhaps the discussion should be along those lines for campuses. Now keep in mind that this approach would be a financial burden on the insitutions as they must properly place signage. IF they live on campus: 3. Provide you with a written description of the firearm or firearms that they intend to carry. Normally I am not in favor of gun registration, but in this case you need to know what might be in the dorm room if the student isn't there to tell you and it is burgled, and you might want such a list to provide to the fire department in the event of a fire. I would NOT give it to them unless there was a fire, though; it is a privacy issue, and unscrupulous people in the fire department might spread the word about where there are guns to steal. I am more than uncomfortable with this notion as it allows records to be kept and history shows us where that goes.

4. Make the student provide his own lock-box for handguns. It should pass an inspection: the gun must fit into it, obviously, and it should lock when closed - so you don't have to worry about remembering to lock it. I have one that works like that, which can be accessed by a five-button code without a key. One more thing on this: You should allow the students to secure the box to the floor or wall, so someone cannot easily steal the whole thing. Superb idea! This places the responsibility on the licensee instead of the university. Certainly the campus should set a standard on this and all who wish to carry and live on campus should abide by it. 5. I think it would be reasonable to require the students to have a second box in their car. Normally this isn't necessary, but kids spend a lot of time riding around with each other, and sometimes will want to leave their car to go into places they are not allowed to carry by state law, such as sporting events - or bars. The lock box is to keep other kids from getting their hands on it. Back to #3. The firearm should be required to be secure at all times and if the student does not comply there should be consequences. Keep in mind that state law already has significant criminal penalties for not securing firearms. Dorm rooms that are shared present a special requirement. I think the best approach is that you exact a requirement on the student that the gun is always in one of three states: on his person (which is the safest place for it to be), in the gun safe, or with him on the table being cleaned. Make the student understand going in (and he should know this from class) that allowing other students access to his gun makes him legally liable for anything they do with it. I agree on this point. Just throwing out ideas here, but perhaps a form covering all these points, checked off and signed by the student, might be in order. The goal here is to make sure communication happens. It is just a passing thought, but earlier I mentioned the possibility of a class at Kilgore teaching gun handling and safety. I really do think that would be a good idea, you might be surprised how many people would take it. You could make it a requirement for any student that carries on campus (not a prerequisite, because they're already licensed, but perhaps take it their first semester) in order to make sure they understand the requirements discussed here, as well as simple good gun handling practice. Shooting is a fun sport, that used to be encouraged in high schools and colleges nationwide. I agree with this as well. No person can get too much safety training. I am around firearms every day and I contend that I am the least safe person in most groups because of complacency. So I have to force myself to be safe. Sounds counter intuitive but it is true. Look at negligent discharges by law enforcement and they literally carry a firearm every day of their life. I would like to comment on one of your concerns listed in earlier emails. Most police chiefs are not in favor of any citizens having access to firearms. My local chief recently was addressing a civilian class and stated that the public has given over its protection to law enforcement. This is the mind set of many LEO's and it is not correct. Law enforcement does a fantastic job and I am so grateful for their sacrifices but they cannot protect us 100% of the time. As hard as they try it is just not reality, nor is it the law. The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that LE is not responsible to protect us and are not liable if we are hurt. So we, the people, must take this responsibility seriously and do so for ourselves. Given the time laps for a response from LE in any shooting we have record of the first responders are the public. Just as happens with CPR to sustain life until the professionals arrive. I am sure that there have been cases where problems have arose when LE arrives at a shooting scene but once again those are few and far between when a CHL holder is involved. I did visit the VPC website you mentioned and found that since 2007 they have listed 5 incidents with CHL holders in the state of Texas. Of those 4 resulted in a conviction and one is pending. If we assume all 5 will result in a conviction the violent crime rate among CHL holders would be 1.25 per 100,000. The statewide average is 5.4. So in Texas you are at least 5 times less likely to be harmed by a CHL holder than the general public. And this is using the rate of 5 crimes per 400,000 licensees versus 5 crimes for 25 million residents. You can see if we used the whole population it would be the small number I mentioned in my first email. I am still researching the federal law angle of the high school component. Jack Burch From: Bill Holda

To: Jack Burch Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:47:09 -0600 Subject: RE: Campus Carry

Jack: Very, very helpful comments. As I recently discovered (AGAIN), I need to have my facts straight before I speak. Your comments and observations are going to help me be much better informed. More to follow. Bill From: Jack Burch To: Bill Holda Subject: RE: Campus Carry Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:00:01 -0500
Dr. Holda, The thoughts provoked by this discussion work both ways! Things I've never contemplated. Jack ###