Jason Hall Twin Galaxies Declaration

1 David A.
Tashroudian [SBN 266718]

Mona Tashroudian [SBN 272387]
2 TASHROUDIAN LAW GROUP, APC
5900 Canoga Ave., Suite 250
3 Woodland Hills, California 91367
Telephone: (818) 561-7381
4 Facsimile: (818) 561-7381
Email: david@tashlawgroup.com
5 mona@tashlawgroup.com
6 Attorneys for defendant Twin Galaxies, LLC
7
8 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
9 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
10
11 WILLIAM JAMES MITCHELL, Case No. 19STCV12592
12 Plaintiff, Assigned to: Hon. Gregory W. Alarcon

[Dept. 36]
13 v.
DECLARATION OF JASON HALL ISO
14 SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE OF
15 TWIN GALAXIES, LLC; and Does 1-10, DEFENDANT TWIN GALAXIES, LLC
[CCP § 425.16]
16 Defendants.
[Filed concurrently with: (1) Memorandum of
17 Points & Authorities; (2) Declaration of David
A. Tashroudian; (3) Request for Judicial
18 Notice; and (4) [Proposed] Order]
19
Hearing
20 Date: July 6, 2020
Time: 8:30 a.m.
21 Place: Department 36
22 RESERVATION ID: 095658146502
23
Action Filed: 4/11/2019
24
25
26
27
28
1
DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
1 DECLARATION OF JASON HALL
2 I, Jason Hall, declare that:
3 1. I am an individual over the age of 18 and I make this declaration in support of the
4 special motion to strike of Twin Galaxies, LLC (“Twin Galaxies”) to the complaint for defamation
5 of William James Mitchell (“Billy Mitchell”). I make this declaration based on facts known to me
6 personally to be true, and if called as a witness to testify to them, I could and would do so.
7 2. I am the Head Custodian of Records for Twin Galaxies, and have held that position
8 since I purchased the organization from Walter Day in 2014. In my position as Head Custodian
9 of Records, I am responsible for maintaining the integrity of all scores that appear on Twin
10 Galaxies records of video game achievements. I am also the head administrator of Twin Galaxies
11 and have access to all metrics regarding users, submissions, scores, forum posts, and other
12 information generated by the Twin Galaxies Website – defined below. I am the person most
13 knowledgeable about all of Twin Galaxies’ current business practices, and all of the website’s
14 functions as well. As the Head Custodian of Records, I make the final determination as to the
15 validity of any dispute claim related to an existing score which appears on any of the Twin
16 Galaxies video game score leaderboards.
17 THE TWIN GALAXIES PUBLIC WEBSITE FORUMS & SCORE LEADERBOARDS
18 3. Twin Galaxies operates a web site at the address: www.twingalaxies.com (the
19 “Twin Galaxies Website”). The Twin Galaxies Website is a comprehensive social platform that
20 facilitates a competitive community and provides official structure and parameters to video game
21 playing achievement across all electronic gaming platforms. It is where competitive video game
22 rules are officially set, player performances are objectively measured and adjudicated, and the
23 statistical data of official records and rankings are logged, maintained, updated and made publicly
24 available.
25 4. The Twin Galaxies Website provides a public forum for members of the public to
26 discuss all things related to video games, including video game industry news, video game scores
27 and score performances. Any user is allowed to start a new discussion “thread” in a forum related
28 to a variety of video game related topics. All threads and forums are available for the general
1 public to view. That is, anyone with access to the Internet and who navigates to the Twin Galaxies
2 website is able to view all forums and threads on the site. The general public can, and is
3 encouraged to, join the discussion on the forums and threads by registering as a user and posting
4 their comments.
5 5. The Twin Galaxies Website publishes leaderboards for thousands of video game
6 titles across dozens of video game platforms, including but not limited the personal computer,
7 Arcade, Sony PlayStation consoles, Microsoft Xbox consoles, Nintendo consoles, emulation
8 platforms such as M.A.M.E (Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator) and a variety of other video
9 gaming platforms. The leaderboards recognize video game achievements for various aspects of
10 the video game such as high score, or fastest time, and ranks players according to their verified
11 achievements in those categories.
12 6. As an example, the Twin Galaxies Website publishes leaderboards for the Donkey
13 Kong video game on multiple platforms which include Arcade, and M.A.M.E. There is a
14 leaderboard for most points scored in the Donkey Kong video game on the Arcade platform; while
15 there is another completely separate leaderboard for the most points scored in the Donkey Kong
16 video game on the M.A.M.E platform. Although both high score point achievements relate to the
17 same game, the fact that they were achieved on a different platform means that the scores are
18 recorded different leaderboards.
19 7. The records and rankings of video game achievement that appear on the Twin
20 Galaxies Website leaderboards for a particular game have been historically recognized world-wide
21 as the official records of achievement in that video games. Many records and rankings appearing
22 and recognized on the Twin Galaxies Website leaderboards have been used by Guinness World
23 Records in several Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition books, and continue to be recognized
24 as world records by the Guinness organization and others.
25 SCORE SUBMISSION PROCESS
26 8. Any verified user of the Twin Galaxies Website is allowed to submit a recorded
27 video game performance for inclusion on a particular video game’s leaderboard. However, every
28 submission must comport with that video game’s leaderboard track rules. The track rules set forth
1 the game settings and parameters that must be observed for the score to be recognized. The track
2 rules make sure that all achievement submissions are performed on an equal basis – that is,
3 following the rules allows Twin Galaxies to ensure that everyone is playing on an equal footing.
4 For example, the Donkey Kong Arcade leaderboard has a specific set of track rules as follows:
5 “Dip-Switch Bank: 1-7 = OFF; 8 = ON/OFF [Upright/Cocktail]; Number of Jumpman: 3; Score
6 Level for Extra Jumpman: 7,000 Points.” The rules also require that the submitted performance
7 be on an original, unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system with original printed circuit board.
8 The Donkey King M.A.M.E leader board has a different set of track rules as follows: “ROMSet:
9 DKong; Lives: 3; Bonus life: 7000; Special Rules: None.” Any variation from a game’s track
10 rules is grounds for disqualification of a score or submission.
11 9. Once a verified user submits a recorded video game performance for inclusion onto
12 a leaderboard, it is placed in a forum for the community of users registered on the Twin Galaxies
13 Website to adjudicate and vote on the veracity of the performance. The Twin Galaxies Website
14 utilizes a one-of-a-kind, highly controlled, blind system of peer review to adjudicate scores. The
15 peer review is conducted by other registered members of the Twin Galaxies Website who are
16 known as adjudicators. The adjudicators are members of the public and not employees or otherwise
17 compensated by Twin Galaxies. When voting on the submission, the adjudicators are asked one
18 question: Based on the evidence provided, do they believe a score claim is valid? Yes or No.
19 Adjudicators do not know when a voting period will end. Adjudicators do not know exactly how
20 many people voted, adjudicators do not know how many votes it will take to close a vote.
21 Adjudicators have no control over the adjudication process; they merely vote.
22 10. If a score submission passes the peer review process, the achievement is placed on
23 the leaderboard, and is presumed valid.
24 SCORE CLAIM DISPUTE PROCESS
25 11. The Twin Galaxies Website provides a process to dispute the veracity of a verified
26 score appearing on a leaderboard. Next to every score performance record on a leaderboard is a
27 button that allows a registered user with a minimum credibility rating to dispute the score
28 performance and achievement claim.

1 12. Once a score dispute claim is submitted, it is placed into a public dispute voting
2 forum where the gaming community will publicly discuss, debate and vote on the veracity of the
3 claim and present evidence which is supplied by the public or the one making the dispute claim.
4 The public dispute claim forum is the evidentiary record from which the score dispute is decided
5 by the Twin Galaxies Website administrator. This public process is designed for transparency and
6 accessibility. All registered Twin Galaxies Website members can participate in the process of
7 providing evidence and discussion that is for or against the dispute claim's assertions. The public
8 can too, so long as they register to post on the site.
9 13. A dispute claim remains open until it accumulates enough supportive votes to
10 trigger a score removal recommendation. When a score removal recommendation is triggered, a
11 Twin Galaxies Website administrator is notified and will review all of the presented dispute claim
12 evidence and the comments in the public forum supporting, or disagreeing with, the dispute claim.
13 If after reviewing the evidence, the Twin Galaxies Website administrator agrees with the
14 community’s removal recommendation, the disputed score will be removed.
15 14. If, however, after reviewing the evidence, the Twin Galaxies Website administrator
16 does not agree with the community removal recommendation, the disputed score will not be
17 removed, and the disputed claim will be placed into inactive status while simultaneously remaining
18 open to allow it to continue to gather additional evidence and further votes until it triggers another
19 score removal recommendation event.
20 15. The disputed claim voting / review process may continue to escalate indefinitely
21 until a claim becomes compelling enough for the Twin Galaxies Website administrator to agree
22 and remove the score. Every dispute claim is handled uniquely, on a case-by-case basis, and driven
23 by the community review process.
24 16. Only evidence that is specifically provided and documented within the public
25 dispute claim discussion thread will be considered toward any decision.
26 17. Twin Galaxies' default position is that all of its stored adjudicated performance
27 record data has already been proven valid, and does not need to be re-proven. Therefore, the onus
28
1 is on the dispute claim submitter to definitively and objectively prove the invalidity of any Twin
2 Galaxies adjudicated performance record in order to have that record removed.
3 18. Twin Galaxies, as part of a comprehensive process and in its position of authority,
4 must ensure due diligence. The public documentation of our processes and conclusions are
5 intended to satisfy scrutiny for the long term. So in instances where warranted, Twin Galaxies’
6 comprehensiveness must go above and beyond what would normally satisfy the public. This means
7 that the dispute claim process can be lengthy.
8 19. The dispute claim process, and rules and procedures for disputes, appear on the
9 Twin Galaxies Website at: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:The-
10 Dispute-Process-Guidelines-and-How-To-Submit-a-Dispute-Claim.
11 DISPUTE CLAIM RELATING TO THE BILLY MITCHELL DONKEY KONG SCORES
12 20. On, or about, August 28, 2017, Twin Galaxies Website registered user Jeremy
13 Young, under the pseudonym Xelnia, submitted a dispute claim whereby he disputed Billy
14 Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and
15 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores (the “Disputed Score Performances”) which had previously
16 appeared on the Donkey Kong video game points (with hammer allowed) leaderboard for the
17 Arcade platform.
18 21. The dispute claim was published on a public forum accessible to anyone on the
19 Twin Galaxies Website on or about August 28, 2017 (the “Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread”).
20 The Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread can be accessed at the following web address:
21 https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-
22 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800.
23 22. For ease of reference, I am attaching to this declaration as Exhibit A a true and
24 correct copy of the entirety of the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. This exhibit encompasses
25 all of the comments from Twin Galaxies Website users who submitted evidence or other
26 commentary in connection with the score dispute from the time the dispute claim was started on
27 August 28, 2017 through the time it was printed on March 13, 2020 and it remains publicly
28 accessible. This exhibit was created in the regular course of Twin Galaxies’ business. That is,
1 whenever a dispute claim is started, it along with all comments posted within that dispute claim
2 forum and thread, are recorded on Twin Galaxies Website servers for presentation on the Internet
3 and for posterity. I was able to extract that information in a document format as presented in this
4 exhibit. Each of the comments that appear on this exhibit were recorded in this writing at the time
5 they were posted in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. The source of the information has
6 not been altered in any manner, and thus the information contained in this exhibit is the same
7 information that would be accessed by navigating to the link provided to the Mitchell Score
8 Dispute Claim Thread in the preceding paragraph. The only difference between the information
9 contained in this exhibit, and that appearing on the Twin Galaxies Website, is that any video,
10 pictures, or other media which appears on the Twin Galaxies Website does not appear in this
11 exhibit. However, all text comments between the two sources are identical.
12 23. In connection with drafting this declaration, I had the Twin Galaxies Website
13 engineers prepare a statistical analysis of the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. The statistical
14 analysis revealed that as of March 14, 2020: (1) Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread was viewed
15 on the Twin Galaxies Website 2,394,329 times; (2) there were 170 unique contributors who
16 commented in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread; (3) there were 211 users who voted to
17 adjudicate the score dispute (198 agreeing with the dispute, and 13 disagreeing); and, (4) there
18 were 3,770 content entries in the evidentiary record which comprise the entirety of the Mitchell
19 Score Dispute Claim Thread.
20 24. The substance of the dispute claim made by Jeremy Young is that Billy Mitchell’s
21 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the
22 Boomers score) scores were not created on an original Donkey Kong Arcade platform system, but
23 that they were instead created on an emulation platform such as the M.A.M.E. platform system,
24 and they were therefore ineligible for inclusion on the Donkey Kong video game points (with
25 hammer allowed) leaderboard for the Arcade platform. Jeremy Young contended that the
26 performances that were recorded onto video tape and submitted to Twin Galaxies as evidentiary
27 proof of his Donkey Kong accomplishment, could not have been produced by an unmodified
28 original Donkey Kong Arcade system. The dispute claim contended that the images and other
1 artifacts that were recorded and being displayed in the video tapes that Twin Galaxies referees
2 used to verify and authenticate Billy Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200
3 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores could not have originated
4 from an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade system.
5 25. The rationale for Jeremy Young’s dispute claim was based on purely objective
6 technical, scientific evidence. There was and is no subjectivity to the claim. Jeremy Young’s
7 assertion was completely testable and measurable to an absolute definitive conclusion. His
8 technical presentation can be found in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread at posts numbers
9 186 and 187 dated February 2, 2018, at the following web address:
11 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-
12 800?p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633. The presented evidence comprehensively demonstrated
13 that it was technologically impossible for the videotaped performances that were used to verify
14 and adjudicate Billy Mitchell’s 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage
15 Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores to have originated from an unmodified
16 original Donkey Kong Arcade system.
17 26. It is an absolute Twin Galaxies requirement that all Donkey Kong Arcade platform
18 performances adhere to a specific ruleset to be considered valid. One of the primary rules is that
19 unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade hardware be used. The very specific and detailed
20 ruleset can be found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/168098-Twin-
21 Galaxies-Donkey-Kong-(Arcade)-Recording-Rules.
22 27. After Jeremy Young made his technical presentation, public interest and discussion
23 on the matter escalated further, and on February 2, 2018, Twin Galaxies administration made a
24 public statement in the dispute claim file that it would be impartially reviewing and verifying the
25 technological assertions in the dispute claim: “To clarify, time will be needed for Twin Galaxies
26 to fully-review this evidence. We will do this thoroughly and impartially. In the meantime we will
27 continue to observe this discussion by experts in our community.”
28 ///
1 INVESTIGATION OF THE JEREMY YOUNG DISPUTE CLAIM
2 28. Upon receiving this claim, and all of the technical and scientific evidence provided
3 along with it, Twin Galaxies independently embarked to verify and duplicate the science and
4 claims that Jeremy Young provided. The process of verifying Jeremy’s Young’s specific technical
5 claims took more than 2 months. It is important to understand that as we were working to verify
6 Jeremy Young’s claims, the public kept supplying additional evidence to the dispute file that also
7 needed to be looked at and verified.
8 29. The person who assisted Billy Mitchell in the recording of his score performances,
9 Robert Childs, placed an evidentiary contribution to the public dispute thread, describing exactly
10 what he did to “record” the performances. Robert Childs’ contribution to the Mitchell Score
11 Dispute Thread was made on February 11, 2018 and appears as thread post number 946. Childs’
12 post can be found at this web address: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-
13 Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-
14 Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=949192&viewfull=1#post949192.
15 30. Childs indicated that the Billy Mitchell’s performances were recorded to a VCR
16 tape with a direct feed device, meaning that a video camera was not pointed at an Arcade machine
17 to record the performance. In order to accomplish this type of recording, a person must access the
18 printed circuit board (“PCB”) inside an original Donkey Kong Arcade system and connect a
19 special device known as a converter board that splits the signal so that a direct feed can be sent to
20 a recording device.
21 31. Twin Galaxies found the exact converter board that Robert Childs claimed to have
22 used to record Billy Mitchell’s score performances. We confirmed with the manufacturer of the
23 board that there has only ever been of one type of board and it was never revised/updated. We
24 purchased two of these converter boards, and we also purchased an unmodified original Donkey
25 Kong Arcade system that contained an original Donkey Kong PCB. We also purchased high-
26 speed video cameras capable of shooting at over 120 frames per second for capture purposes and
27 multiple VCRs. We made these expenditures to determine if we could replicate the images and
28 artifacts identified by Jeremy Young in his dispute claim as not being able to be drawn by an
1 original unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system. Twin Galaxies completely replicated Billy
2 Mitchell’s claimed hardware recording setup in an attempt to produce the signature images seen
3 in Billy Mitchell’s recordings. We were never able to recreate those images and artifacts.
4 32. Twin Galaxies publicly presented its testing setup in the dispute thread with
5 photographs as well as a complete walk through video inclusive of some real time testing on March
6 30, 2018 at dispute thread pos number 2387. The evidentiary post can be found here:
8 Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-
9 800?p=961122&viewfull=1#post961122.
10 33. Twin Galaxies dedicated the following four staff to research the Jeremy Young
11 dispute claim. Jace Hall – (Software Engineer and video game developer credited with more than
12 30 top tier video game titles produced.) I handled the vast majority of the investigative work, while
13 the other Twin Galaxies staff members assisted with set up and then participated in result
14 discussion. Anthony Marin – (Information Technology Specialist.) Helped to set up the various
15 testing configurations, along with myself. He also helped to acquire any needed hardware, cables
16 or software. Todd Roy – (Video production specialist) Helped to set up and capture high speed
17 footage of the Donkey Kong machines as needed during the investigation. Franny Maufras –
18 (Community and Administration support) Went through all the stored video tape archives of TG
19 to find any relevant material needed for comparative or origination.
20 34. Twin Galaxies held a four-plus hour live public discussion stream reviewing and
21 showing Billy Mitchell’s taped performances frame by frame with full and complete transparency.
22 I moderated the public discussion. Throughout the broadcast, Twin Galaxies was fair and unbiased
23 as it discussed Jeremy Young’s claims, and the claims of other contributors to the Mitchell Score
24 Dispute Claim Thread. I clearly stated throughout the broadcast that the review effort is not
25 malicious or representative of anyone’s character.
26 35. Twin Galaxies spent thousands of dollars to adjudicate the claim. The expenditures
27 were in form of equipment purchased, and salaries paid. Twin Galaxies believes that this was the
28 most professionally documented and thoroughly investigated video game score of all time. We are
1 currently aware of no other video game score investigation that matches the expense, transparency,
2 and length of investigative time that went into this dispute claim.
3 36. At all times, Twin Galaxies publicly checked and posted its ongoing results against
4 the results of other third-party public results that were being discovered and posted simultaneously
5 in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread. Twin Galaxies also examined results of others for
6 comparative purposes. This was done throughout the dispute claim thread. This was truly a public
7 process. The overall collection of data by the public and the subsequent verification of the data
8 took a total of 7 months from start to finish.
9 INVESTIGATION RESULTS
10 37. After all of Twin Galaxies investigation and testing process had concluded, I, in
11 agreement with the rest of the Twin Galaxies staff involved, determined that Jeremy Young’s
12 dispute claim was valid. This determination was based on (1) a consideration of the public’s
13 comments and investigation as set forth in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread and (2) Twin
14 Galaxies’ inability, and all known 3rd party public investigation’s inability to replicate the image
15 and artifacts appearing in Billy Mitchell’s submitted taped score performances on original,
16 unmodified, Donkey Kong Arcade system and PCB with, or without, a converter board.
17 38. Based on my determination that Jeremy Young’s dispute claim was valid, on April
18 12, 2018, I caused to be posted in the Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread, the ultimate findings
19 of Twin Galaxies that: “[w]e now believe [Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong scores leaderboard
20 scores] are not from an original unmodified DK Arcade PCB, and so our investigation of the tape
21 content ends with that conclusion and assertion.” A true and correct copy of Twin Galaxies’ April
22 12, 2018 statement is attached hereto as Exhibit B, and is incorporated herein by reference. Billy
23 Mitchell’s records of achievement were erased from the Donkey Kong score leaderboard
24 accordingly.
25 ///
26 ///
27 ///
28 ///
1 LACK OF MALICE
2 39. Throughout the course of the investigation into Jeremy Young’s claim dispute
3 regarding Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong score, I reiterated to the community that the investigation
4 into Jeremy Young’s claim dispute does not reflect on Billy Mitchell’s character, and that the
5 investigation is not malicious. Rather, the investigation was to verify the veracity of the
6 evidentiary content provided with Jeremy Young’ dispute claim submission whose goal was to
7 ensure that only valid scores appear on Twin Galaxies Website leaderboards.
8 40. I personally harbor no animosity or ill will toward Billy Mitchell. I am indifferent
9 one way or another whether his Donkey Kong or other scores appear on the Twin Galaxies Website
10 leaderboards. My only concern is to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards.
11 41. I was in communication with Billy Mitchell during the time Twin Galaxies was
12 investigating Jeremy Young’s dispute claim. In my communications with Mr. Michell, I
13 encouraged him to submit evidence to the public thread for comment and consideration. I also
14 encouraged him to have anyone with evidence on his behalf to contribute to the public discussion
15 for comment and consideration. I encouraged Mr. Mitchell to do so because I wanted to ensure
16 he had a fair opportunity to present his case. At no time did Mr. Mitchell personally comment, or
17 personally present any assistance to Twin Galaxies in support of the validity of his scores in the
18 public Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread.
19 42. On March 12, 2018 an evidentiary entry to the Billy Mitchell Dispute Thread was
20 made by Joel West who announced that Billy Mitchell had formed an independent technical
21 investigation team (self-titled “Team Billy”) to provide evidence in support of the validity of his
22 taped score performances. This announcement is evidentiary entry #1690 in the Billy Mitchell
23 Dispute Thread, found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-
24 Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-
25 1-062-800?p=955912&viewfull=1#post955912.
26 43. This team was provided direct access to Billy Mitchell’s Arcade and recording
27 equipment and was lead by former Sega technician, Carlos Pinerio. After Twin Galaxies concluded
28 its technical investigation, and was preparing to come to a final decision, “Team Billy”, requested
1 that I delay the final decision in the dispute case until Carlos Pinerio had an opportunity to provide
2 his findings to the public evidentiary dispute thread.
3 44. I granted this request, provided all of the time requested without constraint, and
4 carefully reviewed and considered all the evidence provided in Carlos Pinerio’s summary, which
5 contained the statement: “My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT
6 generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally
7 produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings. Repeated testing and viewing of the game
8 on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine
9 Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards.”
10 45. “Team Billy’s” evidentiary entry is found as post #2935 in the Billy Mitchell
11 Dispute Thread here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-
12 Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-
13 800?p=963313&viewfull=1#post963313
14 46. After the investigation was completed, and particularly after Twin Galaxies had
15 replicated the setup that Billy Mitchell claimed he used to capture the Donkey Kong score
16 performance, and considering the fact that we were unable to replicate the images and artifacts
17 appearing in the submissions, I had no subjective doubt that the performances did not comport
18 with the rules for submission and inclusion onto the Arcade leaderboard. To be sure, I had no
19 doubt that Billy Mitchell’s Donkey Kong score performances were NOT from an original
20 unmodified Donkey Kong Arcade system and PCB. I still have no subjective doubt that that is
21 the case. We could not replicate the images and artifacts, and we tried. That fact showed me the
22 scores were not from Arcade cabinet, and they were performed on some other system.
23 I swear, under penalty of perjury of the laws of the State of California, that the foregoing
24 is true and correct. Executed this 30th day of March, 2020 at Los Angeles California.
25 /s/ Jason Hall
26
27
28
EXHIBIT A
3/13/2020 Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800
Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong -

Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell
- Score: 1,062,800
Printable View
08-28-2017, 05:47 PM
xelnia
Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell -
Score: 1,062,800
Exhibit A - 000001
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,0… 1/1012
Dispute: Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hamm - 1,062,800
Play Video
Play
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Remaining Time0:00
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Playback Options
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1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x
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Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1135817 Copy
Exhibit A - 000002
Arcade -
Donkey
Kong -
Points
[Hammer
Allowed]
Score Track https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=22
Dip-Switch Bank:
1-7 = OFF
8 = ON/OFF [Upright/Cocktail]
Note: The above Dip Switches, are not only the FACTORY DEFAULT
Rules
settings, but are also the correct Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings for this
title and will provide the following settings:
Number of Jumpman: 3
Score Level for Extra Jumpman: 7,000 Points
Player Name Billy L Mitchell
Original
N/A
Adjudication
Verification
Referee
Method
Verification
2010-07-31
Date
Disputed
1,062,800 (Rank 12)
Score
Disputed By xelnia
This score has been questioned for years in the DK community, so I felt it
was time to create an official dispute. Since I'm not sure how much text can
Dispute
be entered in the Dispute message, the bulk of my post will be in a reply. The
Evidence /
key piece of evidence is the so-called "Board Swap Video":
Rationale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k
08-28-2017, 05:48 PM
xelnia
For context, Billy supposedly set a new record on Donkey Kong (this 1.06M score) and then
immediately followed that up by setting a new record on Donkey Kong Jr. This occured, and
was claimed to be recorded, at a Boomers park in Florida with witnesses being TG referee
Todd Rogers and Todd's significant-other-but-also-TG-referee MorningDove Mahoney. The
Board Swap Video supposedly shows the downtime between the two records when one of
Billy's friends, Robert Childs, is swapping out the Donkey Kong PCB for the Donkey Kong
Jr. PCB. However, there is no Donkey Kong PCB in the above video. Childs is swapping a
Donkey Kong Jr. PCB for another (or probably the same) Donkey Kong Jr. PCB.
When this was pointed out in the comments section of the YouTube video, those comments
were deleted and the audio was muted and swapped out for some royalty-free music that
YouTube provides...but not before the original video with original audio had been saved.
This raises many questions, but here's what stands out in my mind.
Exhibit A - 000003
1) If everything was performed and recorded legitimately, why go through the motions to
record a board swap video using only a DKJR board? And then why mute the video?
2) If the board swap video is a deliberate falsification, created to give the impression that
everything is being done legitimately, then it's not unreasonable to think that other facts
regarding this score may have been falsified.
3) It's been shown that Todd Rogers was anything but an impartial referee with impeccable
integrity during his tenure at TG. Numerous scores supposedly done by him are under
dispute, his history of self-entering scores into the database has been confirmed, and the other
verifying referee during this score attempt was his significant other. In my opinion, any score
verified simply by the word of Todd Rogers has a serious credibility problem.
4) Billy's previous 1M+ scores all had some sort of video evidence. The quality of that
evidence has been questioned, but they at least exist. A 1.014M tape was viewed by Robert
Mruczek but never submitted to TG. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M are "direct feed"
performances, claimed to be live, but with no actual known witnesses.
5) Billy has never demonstrated live that he capable of the scores that TG gives him credit for.
He has never scored over 1,000,000 in a live, neutral venue.
Other videos from this Boomers session are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc
There is questionable body language (stepping back to block the arcade machine...why not
just show us the score?) and odd comments (Robert just got out of bed? Wasn't he just here
swapping boards?) in those videos.
You can also find more conversation regarding this score over on DKF: Strange Scores
08-28-2017, 05:58 PM
tudose
lord have mercy
08-28-2017, 06:48 PM
Robert.F
how
how can this be possible Billy said at his Announcement At the Big Bang 2010 in Ottumwa
IA; at the International Video Game Hall of Fame
that there was lots of people there when he was playing live . up to a 100 at some point with
cell phones and video,,,,,, https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg?t=5m10s
08-28-2017, 06:55 PM
DadsGlasses
Subscribing to this thread.
08-28-2017, 07:00 PM
The Evener
Original board swap video with audio intact for reference:

Exhibit A - 000004
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5cuc-ayP0
08-28-2017, 07:04 PM
datagod
I find the evidence presented not very convincing. Sure it raises a few questions, but there is
no solid proof here, just conjecture. I'll hold off my voting of course until more evidence is
presented.
08-28-2017, 07:08 PM
DadsGlasses
In the interview video, Billy states that Todd recorded the entire game. He points to a garbage
bag that supposedly contains the tapes. Just to be clear, are you saying that those tapes were
never reviewed and that the score was based solely on Todd & MorningDove's viewing of the
game? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the Dispute claims. Thanks.
08-28-2017, 07:41 PM
Robert.F
The video clearly shows a Donkey Kong Jr pcb , Bering removed and the same Donkey Kong
Jr pcb being put back in to the cabinet ,, to a UN-trained train eye Dk and DKjr look the same
and in fact they are vary similar, except for a few noticeable differences...
the DK pcb has white text on the pcb and the Dk jr has banana yellow text printed on the
board ,, the DK pcb is 1/2 digital and 1/2 Analog sound and there is a adjustment pot on the
dk pcb for the Analog sound`s, The Dk Jr board is fully digital and has no Analog sound
adjustment pot in the exact same position on the dkjr board, and the 3rd noticeable differences
and you will see; it if you review the video carefully Dk has the same ROM socket lay out
and the same number of sockets as a Dkjr pcb ,, But DKjr has one of them ROM socket
empty ,,,,,, as i pointed out to the man, who is in the video (telling him he was lying), saying
he was pulling out a DK pcb first in the video in the comments; he deleted my comments and
remove the audio and replace it with music ,,, so no one would ever hear him make that clam
of pulling out a DK pcb first,,, but it was to late i recorded the video before he could remove
the audio and cover up his statements,,,, Nixon try this trick deleting 18 mins of tape and look
what happen to him :) i just saying
08-28-2017, 07:55 PM
Robert.F
up to a 100 at some point with cell phones and video,,,,,,

https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg?t=5m10s
08-28-2017, 08:05 PM
ruse_sr
Subscribing to thread
08-28-2017, 08:23 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 36626
I am sure that the DK community experts will have their say with this one.
Exhibit A - 000005
08-28-2017, 08:49 PM
xelnia
Quote:
Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

In the interview video, Billy states that Todd recorded the entire game. He points to a garbage
bag that supposedly contains the tapes. Just to be clear, are you saying that those tapes were
never reviewed and that the score was based solely on Todd & MorningDove's viewing of the
game? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the Dispute claims. Thanks.
I'm not convinced any thing was put on tape at Boomers. I believe it was added to the
leaderboard based solely on Todd and MorningDove being witnesses. In the video that Robert
F. posted above (Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement), Billy implies that the videos in front
of him are the games he played at Boomers. If that's true, then it raises even more questions.
Those videos appear to be the same type of "direct feed" videos Billy used for his 1.047M and
1.05M scores. There is nothing in the Board Swap video (or the other Boomers videos) to
indicate that any type of direct capture setup is being used. I don't know for sure, but I was
under the impression that this type of recording was banned by TG at one point...before or
after Billy's last submission, I don't know.
08-28-2017, 08:57 PM
xelnia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert.F

Robert has given permission to post a video he made for Hank Chien and Steve Wiebe
illustrating the problems with the Board Swap Video:
https://youtu.be/Tc8G0gXh5Og
08-28-2017, 09:54 PM
Robert.F
wow
wow i don`t remember making that video that was 7 years ago :)
Exhibit A - 000006
08-29-2017, 12:52 AM
dwwnp
Board Swap video: pretty straightforward... there's no Donkey Kong PCB and there is clear
intent to deceive. That alone is enough to demonstrate the involved parties are willing to be
dishonest. Billy states he doesn't know how to swap PCBs. There's also no obvious recording
equipment.
Billy Mitchell Speaks video: the title is misleading as it suggests the video was taken
"moments" after the DK record had fallen, but DK Jr. is the game in the background and Billy
speaks as though he's already achieved both scores. That's fine. Late in the video I can see
something that looks like a laptop setup next to the cabinet... maybe it's their recording
equipment?
New DK Jr. Record video: Todd, the verifying referee, does not know the final score nor is he
aware it's impossible to score 50 points in DK Jr. Billy has to stare off into space when asked
for the final score, when the much easier method for recalling the score would be to turn
around and look at the monitor, which should/could still have the score displayed. It sure
looks like Billy intentionally blocks the monitor when the cameraman approaches. Both
records are apparently on tape at this point despite the tech who was previously required to
swap PCBs having just arrived on the scene. Perhaps the recording of a direct feed was
previously setup by the tech before he went home to sleep? There's also a Youtube comment
on this video from someone who claims to have been there and never saw Billy break 400K.
Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement video: the first and only public showing of the score in
question. Clearly this is a direct feed recording. Billy claims up to 100 onlookers witnessed
his score.
2013 SDCC video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGaWi1dFdw): a staged event

wherein Billy claims to have been on WR pace when by pure accident the cord to his DK
machine got pulled. Totally fake, and regardless of its possibly good-natured intent, again
demonstrates Billy's willingness to misrepresent the facts.
1.05 Direct Feed video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI): without access

to the 1.06 tape this video is the only way we can examine any possible improprieties in
Billy's direct feed recording method. There's plenty of oddities in this video, namely the
constant flickering, consistent contrast change that occurs at the end of most levels (after the
rivet boards), and the altogether low skill level on display -- it looks like someone playing at
1.1+ pace who doesn't know how to play at 1.1+ pace and at one point late in the game there's
a death that is inconceivable by 1.1+ standards, meaning an action is taken that would never
ever be taken by a legitimate 1.1 player.
Demonstrating the 1.05 direct feed to be doctored is the only way we'll be able to concretely
prove Billy is a cheater. The other videos, while very suggestive, will never get this score
removed. But even if the 1.05 cannot be proven to have been falsified, at the very least this
1.06 score will forevermore be asterisked. The "No Direct Feed" rule was put in place after
the controversy over this 1.06 score came to light and was instated at the behest of modern
DK players to prevent further shenanigans from Billy.
Further controversy exists around every 1 million score Billy has ever submitted. Be sure to
check out the DKF "Strange Scores" thread for more information:
http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=1610.0
08-29-2017, 02:23 AM
Exhibit A - 000007
dwwnp
And here's the tape from King of Kong, another suspicious direct feed score.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk
08-29-2017, 03:54 AM
The Evener
Xelnia, I am very quickly learning that there is a lot of TG history to catch up on.
I reviewed the messages in the threads you posted - Classic Arcade Gaming (CAGDC), and
Donkey Kong forum as well as the three videos.
The principal interest in this score from the two links you provided seem to pivot on whether
the scores were performed "live" or not. I gather that there was added prestige when making
new records in public (live) venues in front of people watching the game play.
In the video "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record,"
DK Jr is plainly visible (albeit very briefly) on the DK cabinet at the 2:01 mark. Title chosen
by uploader is unambiguous, but could have been recorded after DK Jr run and given wrong
title.
Posters at the DK forum and here plainly assert that the alleged DK PCB to DK Jr PCB
"swap" depicted in the "Board Swap" video was DK Jr in both instances.
The videos show that two referees were on-hand to witness these world records, including
Todd Rogers. According to the video, Pete of Twin Galaxies was informed about the feats and
was on his way down to the venue, although it's unclear why since everything seems
"wrapped up" and we're told Todd has the video tapes.
The score was subsequently entered into the TG database as verified by "Referee."
I agree that events depicted in the videos - usually a high point for both the player and those
gamers who gathered around to watch - seem a bit off. In fact, the most celebrated moment -
flaunting your new world record for the camera while it's still on the game screen - isn't done
for either DK or DK Jr records.
Given the suggestion that the videos of these two WRs are direct feeds (notwithstanding
questions about equipment), it makes more sense that these supplementary videos were taken
with the goal of establishing "real time" that the direct feed videos were done in a live venue,
including documenting the high scores - although verbally communicated in each instance
(hence the banter about sleeping in and being late, rushing down to take the video, Pete is on
his way, etc). If so, one could reasonably expect that the videos would also document
elements required by for a TG submission. The TG wall post is 2017, but the requirements
sound like they were written many years ago - at least 2011, I presume before then as well as
documented here:
http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/f...p?topic=3584.0
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...ecording-Rules
Historically, the submission requirements for DK are one of the most strict for any game
tracked by TG, maybe without exception.
Exhibit A - 000008
Based on what I've seen, if this was a submission package, it would be rejected on the basis of
the PCB issue alone. But since this is score is already in the database as verified by Referee, I
think that we're now left to examine if the score is plausible by the player in question. At
least, that's my understanding from earlier comments in different dispute threads. For the sake
of argument, what if a player went through the trouble of creating a narrative that they
achieved a high score in a public venue, but actually submitted to a referee a video of a high
score achievement recorded weeks earlier at a private venue? In that scenario, the score
actually "happened," but not according to how the player publicly explained. In reviewing a
subsequent dispute, would we reject the score based on the supplementary videos, or would
we set aside that issue and satisfy ourselves that the score was legitimate from the view that it
was achieved by the player?
08-29-2017, 04:09 AM
pwnasaurus
IBTL.......
08-29-2017, 04:39 AM
The Evener
Okay, based on the discussion in other dispute threads, I overstepped in proposing that our
next task was to view the score as plausible.
Here are some quotes from Jace Hall that are pertinent:
"The fact that you now don't have access to evidence of the score occurring does not mean
that there never was evidence of the score occurring.
The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that time.
Only speculation suggests that there wasn't.
Prove that it never took place and that will prove the score guilty.
The fact that you don't have access to proof that it took place does not mean it did not
happen."
08-29-2017, 04:41 AM
Blackflag82
subscribing
08-29-2017, 05:26 AM
Robert.F
the good old boy system out of date
Well i don`t think Billy counted on the good old boy system to be dead at TG. The timing was
perfect (As predicted by Dwayne Richard) just before the open of the video game hall of fame
Billy retakes both records. we or all no strangers to Billy's tricks and his off the shelf VHS
tape`s and sure his library has run out. lets call call episode one last stab at an old trick to
amaze and surprise :) I do believe the scores are legit and were most likely recorded in the
privacy of Billy`s home basement. But Billy has an ego i guess and the temptation to make it
look like he did it live, in wake of all the King Of Kong controversy and Billy own words
laying down the myth scores are done live iv your a real gamer , a vary macho thing :) lol
anyhow there you go , I`m not going to vote Yes or No; one way or another i feel I`m going to
Exhibit A - 000009
get burn for submission points; besides the angry mob of Billy supporter that would probably
like to see me burn at the stake for evening question the man ...... :)
08-29-2017, 05:41 AM
WCopeland
good god almighty
08-29-2017, 06:53 AM
rotunda
Subscribed, this should be an interesting one...
08-29-2017, 07:28 AM
TT
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCopeland

good god almighty
+1.
At the time these scores were submitted, and as I understand it, a legitimate verification
method was having a TG referee witness your score live. You didn't have to submit physical
evidence.
TG supplied a referee to adjudicate on the day, he witnessed the scores, and approved them.
Unless someone has a taped "confession" from the referee or player in question stating
unequivocally that the scores were false, there is no case to answer here.
The "evidence" submitted with this thread means absolutely nothing (as odd as the videos
might be).
There is a reason why the old guard at TG is no longer here. There is a reason why much of
the arcade community are no longer here. It's because of threads like this. Sure, if there's a
case to answer, by all means look into it. But posting a video of a guy "not" swapping a board
out is hardly concrete evidence that the scores in this case never occurred.
You cannot apply today's binary video-based ruleset of Twin Galaxies submissions, to the
rules and requirements that were in place in the past. Different times, different submission
requirements - as flaky as they might seem today, that's what they were.
While the present-day TG community is frothing at the mouth at these historical witch hunts,
real arcade enthusiasts are out there playing games, having fun and looking in shaking their
heads. Suddenly everyone is an expert and has an opinion on everything?
Twin Galaxies is not about scores. It's about the games, the community, the history, having
respect for each other and having fun. (Remember fun anyone?).
Casually browsing around the forums here today, sadly, I see very little of that, and too much
of this sort of thread. The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.
08-29-2017, 08:18 AM
Exhibit A - 000010
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1,… 10/1012
Desidious
Quote:
Originally Posted by TT
+1.
evidence.
might be).
There is a reason why the old guard at TG is no longer here. There is a reason why much of
the arcade community are no longer here. It's because of threads like this. Sure, if there's a
case to answer, by all means look into it. But posting a video of a guy "not" swapping a board
out is hardly concrete evidence that the scores in this case never occurred.
Casually browsing around the forums here today, sadly, I see very little of that, and too much
of this sort of thread. The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.
I guess I don't understand this because I'm too busy having fun playing games and submitting
my times/scores to at least track all of what I'm doing. :)
08-29-2017, 08:19 AM
dwwnp
Quote:
evidence.
Exhibit A - 000011
The referee in question was Todd Rogers, who is not a credible witness, and the videos
presented here suggest there was no live score performed that day.
Quote:
These videos are as close to a confession as we'll ever get.
Quote:
might be).
It means both Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers are willing to fabricate a story as to how things
played out that day.
Quote:
There is a reason why the old guard at TG is no longer here.
Because cheating isn't allowed anymore?
Quote:
There is a reason why much of the arcade community are no longer here.
Who?
Quote:
...posting a video of a guy "not" swapping a board out is hardly concrete evidence that the
scores in this case never occurred.
Again, it is concrete evidence that Billy will misrepresent the truth.
Quote:
No we cannot apply the same submission requirements of today to historical scores, but not
submitting a falsified score has always been a requirement.
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000012
Not a witch hunt. Still playing. And not suddenly. The only change is that the community has
finally been given a voice to help clean up the scoreboard.
Quote:
TG is and always has been, in part, about the scores, though I agree community is far more
important. Do you think these theatrics by Billy were respectful and done to better the
community? Or were they self-serving?
Quote:
The house we occupy is being taken apart brick by brick.
It's about damn time!
Nothing but respect for you, TT, but we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one.
08-29-2017, 08:28 AM
DadsGlasses
I see both sides of this discussion.
The reality is that Twin Galaxies is at a cross roads when it comes to the "integrity of the
Legacy scoresbairds". A decision needs to be made:
1. Clean up the entire scoreboard to the best of our ability and abide by a consistent standard
of submission acceptance.
2. Decide that the Legacy scoreboard is unable to be brought to modern day standards without
doing more harm than good.
If decision 2 is chosen, what can be done to honor the scores of the past while at the same
time allowing for modern day competition standards on those tracks?
08-29-2017, 08:33 AM
TT
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwwnp

We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one.
I don't doubt it. ;)
Exhibit A - 000013
I'll watch with interest as to how this plays out, but I think you're rearranging the deckchairs
on the Titanic.
For clarity, I know Bill and Todd, and happen to like them both as people. I'm not questioning
the validity one way or another of these particular scores, more the methods used to question
them. I hope the correct conclusion is reached whatever that might be.
08-29-2017, 08:44 AM
pwnasaurus
Quote:
I'll watch with interest as to how this plays out, but I think you're rearranging the deckchairs
on the Titanic.
Hit the nail squarely on the head IMO. Accurate statement from my vantage point, though I
must admit the popcorn for this viewing is delicious.
08-29-2017, 09:43 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 36642
Ordered another Hefty bag of popcorn, carry on...
08-29-2017, 09:53 AM
CWK
Judgement day has come

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJayj0F2Rw
08-29-2017, 10:01 AM
spectre
Quote:

The referee in question was Todd Rogers, who is not a credible witness, and the videos
presented here suggest there was no live score performed that day.
why isn't Todd credible as a TG referee?
08-29-2017, 10:12 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre

Exhibit A - 000014
Well, according to Todd's own signature, he is a credible "adjudication supervisor".Not too

shabby with a credibility of 1000, eh?
A video game legend, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem accepting.
Attachment 36643
08-29-2017, 11:23 AM
dwwnp
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectre

Dozens of impossible claims throughout the years and there was a period where he was even
entering his own scores into the TG database, though I think most of those got pulled when he
was asked to provide evidence and could not. He currently has three scores under dispute.
And as it pertains directly to this dispute, the man wasn't aware that scoring 50 points in DK
Jr. is not possible, information he would have readily picked up if he spent any time at all
watching Billy play that day.
Take a look at this page here (a likely biased accounting of things, but still worthwhile):
http://www.ataricompendium.com/game_...gh_scores.html
& the 4th post on this page here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/110619-
Quite the fishy history, in my opinion. Fishtory.
With that said, it's not my goal here to degrade the reputation of players like Billy and Todd --
though it seems an intrinsic side-effect of seeking the truth -- but to build the credibility of the
TG scoreboard as a place that is both fair and historically accurate.
08-29-2017, 11:45 AM
Robert.F
WOW
WOW , so many skeletons in the closet :)
08-29-2017, 11:54 AM
Ripper
I wish I knew more about these scores but all I can do is promise that I didn't verify this score
and know nothing about it being legit or fake. I do know it's had question marks surrounding
it for quite some time. You guys are doing a great job of investigating it.
08-29-2017, 12:36 PM
zallard1
Wow... I commend the Donkey Kong community for finally building up the courage to make
this thread. They did this knowing fully well that it would be met with unreasonable
resistance from TG members and staff that still cannot fathom the possibility that their idols
could have ever pulled any foul play. They did this knowing that they could be hated in the
classic arcade community for ever daring to question the great Billy Mitchell in any capacity.
This is an important dispute for this website to undergo, even if it's obvious what the outcome
is going to end up being considering how poorly the Dragster dispute is being handled
currently.
Exhibit A - 000015
From the perspective of someone who somehow made this dispute system actually work
correctly once (which I'm now realizing was nothing short of a literal miracle), the evidence
against this score is pretty heavy. The suspicious activity surrounding the score should not be
brushed aside; it should be considered and have more questions asked about it. When you see
a video of a DKjr board being swapped with a DKjr board where one of them was supposed
to be a DK board, it should immediately break your trust in whoever is involved with the
video.
Why would someone lie over something like that? What reason does it serve? Why make it a
spectacle to involve that enough to record the process of changing the board? If the TG
community that's participating in these disputes aren't asking questions of a similar vein for
just this one piece of evidence out of several, then there is just no hope for this dispute
process, or Twin Galaxies as a whole.
This dispute is valid.
08-29-2017, 01:11 PM
TT
Quote:
Originally Posted by zallard1

They did this knowing fully well that it would be met with unreasonable resistance from TG
members and staff that still cannot fathom the possibility that their idols could have ever
pulled any foul play.
I think you're making a huge assumption there and one that is inaccurate. Where is the
"unreasonable resistance"? But I do think if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts
need to be put forward than supposition and finger pointing - whoever's score it is. I think the
days of any player having protection or favouritism are over.
08-29-2017, 01:14 PM
WCopeland
Let me preface with this: every interaction I've ever had with Billy has been overwhelmingly
positive. He has been very kind, respectful, and supportive to me. He has gone the extra mile
for me in ways that are inspirational in my conduct towards other players. His handling of
how I broke the DK record is how I want to treat the next person who breaks the record,
regardless of who that may be. That is how well I have been treated.
At best, the board swap video and gameplay tapes demonstrate that the scores were not done
live as advertised.
I suspected this thread would appear as soon as Todd's credibility was put into question on a
grander scale in the public spotlight; never did I think this thread would appear as soon as it
did.
To qualify what I'm about to say: I can score 1.1m+ on Donkey Kong at will, and I have a
near-complete understanding of the game. I've seen the tapes before and they demonstrate
gameplay mechanics that no well-grounded player would do to maintain 1.1m+ pace. Simply
put, with the playstyle demonstrated in these tapes, the odds of making it all the way to the
end on a single attempt are infinitesimally small. With perfect luck, it's doable, but I'd argue
it's even better luck than my world record game in which I scored 1.17m in a single life... and
by better luck I mean by a huge huge margin. With hundreds of attempts, it's conceivable.
Exhibit A - 000016
I've considered streaming and doing deep gameplay analysis and commentary of the tapes. Up
until now out of respect for Billy I haven't done that. Now that everything is out in the open
and on permanent record anyway, I might do it.
To conclude, I believe what's proven here is that the scores were not done live. If Todd's 5.51
is removed from the database, then his dishonesty will be publicly validated (and many of us
will feel vindicated), and that would shine an extremely negative light on this score.
08-29-2017, 01:30 PM
Robert.F
say what
if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts need to be put forward than supposition
and finger pointing ..............., hmmmm the score in question its origins would seem to be
falsified,,,, an out right lie,,, base on the fact not a single shred events the score was varied
live , not a single video recording of the 100 onlookers has come to light .....yet here we have
un conclusive video`s by the record holder trying to draw out for us events to make us think it
was do live only one of theses videos clearly show deception . maybe Billy would like to
chim in on this one and eat a little crow
08-29-2017, 01:36 PM
zallard1
Quote:
I think you're making a huge assumption there and one that is inaccurate. Where is the
"unreasonable resistance"? But I do think if a score is to be put into question, more solid facts
need to be put forward than supposition and finger pointing - whoever's score it is. I think the
days of any player having protection or favouritism are over.
You're correct in that the unreasonable resistance hasn't happened... yet.
I disagree in your assertion that "the days of any player having protection or favouritism are
over" when the biggest reason that Todd's 5.51 is still on TG despite the literal mountain of
evidence against his time, is his namesake and reputation. This dispute against Billy is
undeniably going to go down the same path that the Dragster dispute did. If it doesn't, then
color me shocked.
08-29-2017, 01:56 PM
TT
Probably worth quoting this post again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Evener

Okay, based on the discussion in other dispute threads, I overstepped in proposing that our
next task was to view the score as plausible.
Here are some quotes from Jace Hall that are pertinent:
"The fact that you now don't have access to evidence of the score occurring does not mean
that there never was evidence of the score occurring. Exhibit A - 000017
The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time.
Only speculation suggests that there wasn't.
Prove that it never took place and that will prove the score guilty.
The fact that you don't have access to proof that it took place does not mean it did not
happen."
(my emphasis).
08-29-2017, 02:22 PM
Robert.F
what what , how is this irrelevant taking ramblings from the owner of TG to what contexts we
do not know what he is speaking of ?
08-29-2017, 02:26 PM
dwwnp
"The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that
time."
This testimony from a former TG referee suggests otherwise:

https://www.facebook.com/OriginalPSP...14171866109920
08-29-2017, 02:36 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

time."
This testimony from a former TG referee suggests otherwise:

https://www.facebook.com/OriginalPSP...14171866109920
A few points made in this post:
-Was Todd Rogers a ref at the time of this submission? Or was he Head Evangelist? Both?
-At the time of this submission were there rules in place that required more than "referee
verification" for DK scores?
08-29-2017, 02:48 PM
Robert.F
Oh dont bring psp in to this
Oh dont bring psp in to this
08-29-2017, 02:55 PM
Robert.F
Exhibit A - 000018
interesting what he saying and sounds about right ,along the lines of the good old boys system
:)
08-29-2017, 03:04 PM
d3scride
Quote:

time."
Here's the full statement for more permanent archival in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Scott Patterson

A personal statement. I'm hoping someone will do the right thing and direct people to this so
it may be taken into consideration.
It's been brought to my attention that the 2010 Donkey Kong score listed by Billy Mitchell
has come under the scrutiny of the Twin Galaxies Challenge System that I've recently
criticized. While I still think old scores should not be removed from the database based on the
opinions of the general public, in this case that community has valid reason to doubt the
legitimacy of that score.
Why? Because it was entered without proper verification.
I've told this story before, so I'm going to do the short version here in hopes that people
actually note and use the information this time.
In 2010, DK had more verification rules that other titles simply due to the desire to avoid
further controversy over title changes.
Days before the Big Bang 2010 event, I personally received a voicemail from Mitchell
informing me he had "an exclusive" for me and to call him back. So I did.
He told me that he had set the DK and DKJ records at an arcade near him and that it was
witnessed by a TG referee. He asked me to write the article that announced these
accomplishments to the world so that it could help draw media attention to his induction into
the Hall of Fame in Iowa that upcoming weekend.
For six hours I received calls with a variety of people on the calls, literally dictating to me
how I was going to write the article. Mitchell took offense to the part where I stated that it
was "pending official verification" by telling me "it's verified and official now". At that point
- when I finally got a word in - I declined to have anything to do with it.
I woke up the next day to learn Mitchell was instead just calling a press conference at the Big
Exhibit A - 000019
Bang to announce it. This was news to David Nelson when I called him about it that
afternoon, and he wasn't happy.
The first day of the Big Bang event came, and David went to have a chat with Mitchell about
this. He came back to me frustrated, telling me that Mitchell said "If you don't publish the
score, I'm going to ***** ya".
So it came down to a simple vote. All then-TG referees that were at the event (most of the
staff at the time was there) went into a hotel room and voted via a private ballot on if we were
or were not going to accept the scores. Billy won the vote.
Pete Bouvier almost overrode it, but that's when Mark Kiehl popped up at the hotel to give me
a disc with his Donkey Kong Junior record on it. Essentially, Mitchell was set to announce a
record score he'd already lost and technically never set. That got Bouvier to spin around the
other way.
He wasn't proud of it, but there it was. Billy told the TG staff what to put, Pete said to do it,
and even the "Because I'm Billy Mitchell" line was faked, created by the writer of the article
rather than Mitchell. To quote Pete Bouvier, the scores were entered "to shut him up"
So yeah... Billy Mitchell's 2010 Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior scores were entered
into the Twin Galaxies database simply to placate him.. .because he'd brought pressure to do
so.
Worse yet, we were told to defend accepting the scores, and given that Bouvier owed me
$4,000 I needed at the time, I went along with it. Had I known he'd pay us only $800 of it
after nearly five months of waiting, I'd have gone ahead and spilled it.
But it's also one of the reasons - along with that shorted payout - that I quit in early 2011. It's
also the point in time where I began to question the legend of Billy Mitchell. While some like
to defend him against me claiming I have some personal grudge... that's not it, people. It's
going through this and seeing other instances that suggest he's done this to many that make
me question most of what he says. He tried - and failed - to order me as to how to write an
article about him... but he successfully lobbied to have scores entered and press created for
him with ZERO validation as per the rules at that time.
I'm sick over not standing up for it back then. Then again, standing up against that stuff now
gets me heat, too. Either way I guess.
But at the end of the day, I have serious doubts about the validity of that 2010 score and while
I still believe that Challenge System is the wrong idea... in this case I can personally attest to
the fact that there are numerous reasons to question it.
I know there are people there who don't care for what I have to say about anything, but there
it is. I wouldn't feel right if I didn't bring this back up now, as I think there are valid reasons to
question that score and the even
08-29-2017, 03:21 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Exhibit A - 000020
"I know there are people there who don't care for what I have to say about anything, but there
it is. "
Attachment 36655
Thank you, please drive thru!!!
08-29-2017, 03:35 PM
Blastaar
1 Attachment(s)
Already been linked, and pasted, but attached is a screencap of Mr. Patterson's remarks on
Facebook.
08-29-2017, 05:07 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastaar

Already been linked, and pasted, but attached is a screencap of Mr. Patterson's remarks on
Facebook.
The only problem I see with someone who admitted they lied is this: Did he lie then, or is he
lying now about the lying? All we know for a fact is he's a liar and so I cant be sure which
time he lied. And why is someone who's so interested in doing the right thing just telling
people to tell others on TG to come to his page to see this? Why doesnt he post it here
himself? Is he just trying to get more views and comments on his facebook page? If he really
just cared about getting the truth out there it seems he'd come to this thread to make sure
people find out instead of hoping someone else posts for him. Nothing about his comment ads
up.
Still, all the inconsistencies aside, it is interesting to hear a former ref admitting he was
willing to falsify scores for money. Maybe thats why he's not posting here, because he knows
he'd be quickly asked how many other scores did he falsely enter in hopes of money? Just
how many bribes did he accept?
08-29-2017, 06:57 PM
CONSOLEPLAYEROFTHECENTURY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake

up.
Exhibit A - 000021
Well he falsified many historical facts

Cat Despira told me he created Ryan Bland, Mark Merica and Jack Wiers even BEFORE The
submissions
I was told by several former refs and people at TG he was handshaked promised cash to pad
the database, make fake scores and harm history Per Pete later to find out he was not
respected or liked so Pete STIFFED him while others got money!!!!!!
Here is the bottomline for the MANY impaired reading this weather he lied about this,
something else, or everything, he lied and that is the problem, he will do anything for
MONEY, he did it when caught by people using their stuff in ill ways.
Same Quote I got a family to feed, ill do whatever it takes....
Message to you Patrick Scott Patterson you feed your family making honest money get a job,
you don't steal and false info to get a paycheck, lie about your own life and history, might as
well sell your body or drugs for that way of living.
You go out like normal people get a job, invest, start an honest business.
You have been involved in everything dirty from being caught entering your own scores
creating fake players
changing rules without permission or being told to do so
you have done anything ill to make a buck which now you and your family are paying for and
ain't it sweet????
you have stolen videos, pictures, got caught being part of more scams than Nixon, Clinton
and Clinton combined
You never take responsibility for anything you done or involved in, you always say, it was
someone elses fault.
You say you were forced
or you were told to do so and the world famous call lies
No matter what you are an evil person who cannot be trusted and I will make sure Retro
Justice gets this to all your contacts, your events and of course your fake followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I pray to god you are deleted from Twingalaxies History you are the most disgraceful person
and gamer in history of the Gaming and should be ashamed of yourself!!!!!!!!!
Dirty Pool at it's finest
08-29-2017, 07:44 PM
The Evener
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000022
up.
Not trying to be coy here, but if PSP did log on and enter his recollection into the dispute
thread, would that change your view of his testimony, or to put it a little differently, would it
carry more weight?
08-29-2017, 08:05 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Not trying to be coy here, but if PSP did log on and enter his recollection into the dispute
thread, would that change your view of his testimony, or to put it a little differently, would it
carry more weight?
Technically, it would give it a little more weight -- not much, but a little. His non entry here is
just one of many issues, but yes, if he were to actually submit it in the proper place that would
remove one of the issues i have with it for what thats worth. It would've also helped if he
admitted what he did was wrong instead of justifying it as he "needed the money" and solely
attacking billy comes off more as a vendetta than an interest in truth.
also, if he posted here and actually responded to follow up questions that would count for a
lot more.
08-29-2017, 11:08 PM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 36674
Its hump day, FOLKS! Time for more popcorn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IafvYG_vGcY
08-30-2017, 06:55 AM
timmell
Chief, I wonder what that ever meant. Maybe ref??? drove me crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0B4esSDUc0&t=1s
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000023
A few points made in this post:
-Was Todd Rogers a ref at the time of this submission? Or was he Head Evangelist? Both?
-At the time of this submission were there rules in place that required more than "referee
verification" for DK scores?
08-30-2017, 07:12 AM
Robert.F
Is this it
Is this it will this argument bring the TG family or will create stem roller effect anarchy and
TG as we know it :)
08-30-2017, 01:25 PM
rotunda
So is there any other evidence to be shown here?
I'm keeping an eye on this to see what turns up and potentially vote either way but so far it
just seems to be a few questionable things but nothing solid to actually prove it...?
08-30-2017, 02:26 PM
Blastaar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotunda

...questionable...
Don't mind if I do...
1) Any chance of getting a statement from Billy to the effect of "I played live games of
Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at
that time" or Todd to the effect of "I witnessed Billy play live games of Donkey Kong and
Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at that time"?
2) Who else was at Boomers on the date in question? Certainly it would have been a big deal
that Billy was doing this and people would remember it.
3) Has the tech in the video been asked why the narration indicates that he was removing a
DK board but it was really a DKJR board?
4) Can it be confirmed whether or not Todd and Morning Dove were really referees on the
date in question?
5) Any chance of getting a comment from Dave Nelson as to what he knew of this affair?
6) Can it be discovered who the other referees were that took the secret ballot that Referee
Patterson described? If so, can comments be obtained from them?
08-30-2017, 02:50 PM
Robert.F
Curious George has join the TG thread
Exhibit A - 000024
Wes told me Curious George has join the TG thread and the man with the yellow hat
where are there post
08-30-2017, 07:18 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Technically, it would give it a little more weight -- not much, but a little. His non entry here is
just one of many issues, but yes, if he were to actually submit it in the proper place that would
remove one of the issues i have with it for what thats worth. It would've also helped if he
admitted what he did was wrong instead of justifying it as he "needed the money" and solely
attacking billy comes off more as a vendetta than an interest in truth.
also, if he posted here and actually responded to follow up questions that would count for a
lot more.
one more thing about this as i see he's repeatedly refering to me and trying to get me to see his
facebook posts. If he has something to say about this and wants us to see it, I dont have time
to go to some obscure page on the far corner of the internet -- particularly one that blocks me.
I'm way to busy to create a fake account and login just to verify what people are telling me he
said about me or this thread. If he really wants us to see something, he can post it here. Its not
that hard. If you want people to here you talk to them, if you want people to read your release
about something post it where they already are. Until then he needs to shut up and let the
grown ups handle this one.
08-30-2017, 07:42 PM
Robert.F
fk psp he is not of any imprints , let`s get to the matter at hand , did or did not Billy Mitchell
try to deceive people as to when he set that score on DK ,, i say hell yeah
08-31-2017, 01:01 AM
rotunda
Quote:
fk psp he is not of any imprints , let`s get to the matter at hand , did or did not Billy Mitchell
try to deceive people as to when he set that score on DK ,, i say hell yeah
I believe the reason people are going through all this and asking various people questions and
getting statements is because we lack solid evidence right now. We need to paint a picture of
what exactly happened. Sadly, those who can do this are likely going to not come here and
post or be tricky to contact.
I can definitely see that something weird is going on with the current evidence BUT you have
to prove it without any doubt if a score is to be removed and personally, i don't see that yet.
Quote:

Don't mind if I do...
1) Any chance of getting a statement from Billy to the effect of "I played live games
Exhibit of
A - 000025
Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at
that time" or Todd to the effect of "I witnessed Billy play live games of Donkey Kong and
Donkey Kong Jr at Boomers on 7/31/10 and set the scores in question at that time"?
2) Who else was at Boomers on the date in question? Certainly it would have been a big deal
that Billy was doing this and people would remember it.
3) Has the tech in the video been asked why the narration indicates that he was removing a
DK board but it was really a DKJR board?
4) Can it be confirmed whether or not Todd and Morning Dove were really referees on the
date in question?
5) Any chance of getting a comment from Dave Nelson as to what he knew of this affair?
6) Can it be discovered who the other referees were that took the secret ballot that Referee
Patterson described? If so, can comments be obtained from them?
Can we action these and get some answers, anyone?
08-31-2017, 02:32 AM
creech
I have a question. Hypothetically this score is removed, BIlly would then have to submit a
new score to be on the DK record list correct? His previous high score wouldn't be added
correct? If there is record and evidence of it.
08-31-2017, 02:37 AM
creech
Quote:
Originally Posted by creech

I assume the player would have to submit a new score under the Jace TG adjudication
process? In regards to players that had scores in the past on the scoreboard.
08-31-2017, 03:39 AM
pwnasaurus
Quote:
Originally Posted by creech

This is a valid question.
I assume his previous high score would be added back and another dispute would have to be
opened up for that particular TG verified score should someone wish to challenge it.
Exhibit A - 000026
08-31-2017, 04:02 AM
rotunda
I would love Billy to come back and submit a new score.
Highly unlikely at this stage I'm sure but that would be one awesome adjudication to
participate it. I've literally never seen him play a full game of DK and i would love to see him
play.
I'm also not sure how i feel about his previous score being added back into the database. Isn't
that the score from KoK? If so, that would likely raise even more eye brows than this dispute
has. I now the KoK was fixed and edited to make Billy look like the bad guy and all that but
honestly that video tape was dodgy as hell!
I always wondered why Billy would direct capture his game play for DK instead of use a
camera. How do you even get direct capture from an arcade machine?!
Did he do the same direct capture recording for his other scores or use a camera?
08-31-2017, 04:09 AM
creech
Actually, I recently learned @stella_blue questioned this in the forums but, I'm not sure what
records TG still obtains as far as record submitted and surpassed as well as evidence if not
witnessed by a ref. It'll be easier to take the next best previous score in the @jacehall era
because for the most part all submission evidence is retained.
08-31-2017, 04:14 AM
creech
I have been restricted for "spamming" so this was probably meant for another area on the site,
I meant no intention to disrupt the dispute.
08-31-2017, 04:56 AM
rotunda
I had a look and answered my own question from earlier. It would seem his last record was
not the taped score but the one at the mortgage brokers.
For those (like myself) unfamiliar with the exact goings on with this record in past years.
NOT what the KoK portrays. Here is a detailed video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQ2vEHq2N4
08-31-2017, 05:21 AM
Blastaar
Quote:

It would seem his last record was not the taped score but the one at the mortgage brokers.
Was there any video of him scoring a million live at the mortgage brokers? If not, isn't it
possible he just did the same thing there that he is accused of at Boomers in this dispute?
Everybody thought it was odd that he did it at that venue instead of an arcade.
Exhibit A - 000027
08-31-2017, 05:29 AM
pwnasaurus
Each year, mortgage brokers are the biggest consumers of arcade Donkey Kong*. It seems
only fitting that they be given a dedicated event to satisfy their appetite.
* Based on Nov 1982 findings in National Mortgage Professional Magazine
08-31-2017, 05:36 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Was there any video of him scoring a million live at the mortgage brokers? If not, isn't it
possible he just did the same thing there that he is accused of at Boomers in this dispute?
Everybody thought it was odd that he did it at that venue instead of an arcade.
That I cannot answer however, the video i posted does seem to show video during the
discussion of his run at the brokers so perhaps there does exist one? The narator on the
YouTube video states that no one was there to see him do it so I guess there must have been a
video.
Oddly, it also shows the exact same tape issue that his score on the KoK had. I find this very
strange.
Attachment 36711
Here is the part where he discusses this and also shows the same issue as the KoK video. If
this was recorded live surely this glitch should not occur? Tapes get that sort of problem when
you copy a copy of a copy and so forth.. Don't tell me he copied his live performance there to
a load of tapes too? It seems very strange to me.
https://youtu.be/LAQ2vEHq2N4?t=16m28s
08-31-2017, 05:49 AM
rotunda
I also noticed this... he mentions it was displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was
playing in the other room...
Wasn't the original KoK tape without audio as well? I could be wrong but I seem to recall
there being no audio of it on the TV there in the film. If there was none at the mortgage
brokers either would this not prove he was playing a tape at the mortgage brokers event and
not actually playing live? The same thing he is said to have done in this dispute?
Unless of course his direct capture only captured the video and not audio. That seems odd to
me though.
Any MAME runs I've seen lack the correct sounds for walking, jumping and Kong banging
when he jumps on the barrel board.
Doesn't it seem ironic that the audio is missing from both his direct capture runs?
Exhibit A - 000028
08-31-2017, 06:40 AM
WCopeland
It's suggestive, but it's also difficult to capture audio from a DK PCB while using a direct
capture setup. In the one event I've participated where there was direct capture from the
board, they gave up trying to get audio and actually put a microphone on the cabinet itself.
@Jace Hall is actually pretty knowledgable when it comes to getting direct capture from a
DK PCB, and he might be able to provide some illumination here.
08-31-2017, 06:56 AM
Robert.F
"displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was playing in the other room..." wow
that make of The Wizard Of Oz hiding in a room behind a curtain pulling levers and pushing
buttons ,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
08-31-2017, 09:44 AM
Blastaar
Quote:

[COLOR=#333333]"displayed on a big screen, with no audio and Billy was playing in the
other room..." wow that make of The Wizard Of Oz hiding in a room behind a curtain pulling
levers
OMG...one couldn't write comedy like this if one tried.
09-01-2017, 02:48 AM
CWK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy J. Ferretti

Well he falsified many historical facts
Cat Despira told me he created Ryan Bland, Mark Merica and Jack Wiers even BEFORE The
submissions
I was told by several former refs and people at TG he was handshaked promised cash to pad
the database, make fake scores and harm history Per Pete later to find out he was not
respected or liked so Pete STIFFED him while others got money!!!!!!
Here is the bottomline for the MANY impaired reading this weather he lied about this,
something else, or everything, he lied and that is the problem, he will do anything for
MONEY, he did it when caught by people using their stuff in ill ways.
Same Quote I got a family to feed, ill do whatever it takes....
Message to you Patrick Scott Patterson you feed your family making honest money get a job,
you don't steal and false info to get a paycheck, lie about your own life and history, might as
well sell your body or drugs for that way of living.
You go out like normal people get a job, invest, start an honest business.
You have been involved in everything dirty from being caught entering your own scores
creating fake players
Exhibit A - 000029
changing rules without permission or being told to do so

you have done anything ill to make a buck which now you and your family are paying for and
ain't it sweet????
you have stolen videos, pictures, got caught being part of more scams than Nixon, Clinton
and Clinton combined
You never take responsibility for anything you done or involved in, you always say, it was
someone elses fault.
You say you were forced
or you were told to do so and the world famous call lies
No matter what you are an evil person who cannot be trusted and I will make sure Retro
Justice gets this to all your contacts, your events and of course your fake followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I pray to god you are deleted from Twingalaxies History you are the most disgraceful person
and gamer in history of the Gaming and should be ashamed of yourself!!!!!!!!!
Dirty Pool at it's finest
Lmfao!!!!!
09-02-2017, 09:25 AM
Robert.F
setting the record right
Todd Rogers has just uploaded a video to tell us the story of Dragster :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bmXFb-ElXm8
09-02-2017, 09:28 AM
His first Mistake was Letting Issaih get involved won't even watch
Todd Upload yourself
09-02-2017, 09:43 AM
ruse_sr
Quote:

Todd Rogers has just uploaded a video to tell us the story of Dragster :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bmXFb-ElXm8
Thats nice, but this is a DK thread.
09-02-2017, 10:17 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Butter and salt please!!!
Attachment 36798
09-02-2017, 10:34 AM
Exhibit A - 000030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcade

Butter and salt please!!!
Attachment 36798
Perhaps a Rescue of games from an invalid sixteen year old

or wait till a huryyycaine arrives and take advantage than lol
09-02-2017, 10:44 AM
Riatoju
I wasn't going to chime in but part of the evidence suggested the referees involved with this
are corrupt. Is there email conversations, screenshots, or a confession, or links that can back
this up? You cant call someone corrupt as evidence.
09-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Robert.F
I have a upload for you to watch Rudy if you wont look at Todd`s , I`m sorry but for it will be
offensive to your,er person
09-02-2017, 07:48 PM
Riatoju
Hey bert!!!!!!!
09-03-2017, 01:41 AM
rotunda
This dispute is going off track real fast...
09-03-2017, 05:45 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

This dispute is going off track real fast...
True, but I got a question for everyone. Is 5.51 possible by a human?
09-03-2017, 05:50 AM
rotunda
I have a counter question, why is it relevant to a Donkey Kong dispute?
This is what you are looking for: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-05-51/page21
09-03-2017, 11:01 AM
Jace Hall
Yes. I have become aware that very recently a former TG ref has stated that without making
any public protest he allowed a score to be entered into the database thatExhibit
he believed to be
A - 000031
improper, and that he did that in the hope of recieving money.
No need to PM me about this further. It is disappointing, but I would like the community to
consider that all TG refs are not the same and that the admitted actions of one does not reflect
them all. The historic TG refs that helped build TG should be appreciated for their great
contributions during all the challenging times.
Score disputes shall continue to be handled on a case by case basis.
Thank you.
09-04-2017, 07:01 AM
Robert.F
Money, it's a crime

Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a raise it's no surprise that they're giving none away.
:)
Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When first we practise to deceive!
09-04-2017, 07:18 AM
Dave Hawksett
We are slowly but surely untangling it. If we do it in a hurry, like some expect, we will tangle
it further.
We would not be able to untangle it at all without the enormous community input from
everyone.
09-04-2017, 07:24 AM
swaggers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jace Hall

Yes. I have become aware that very recently a former TG ref has stated that without making
any public protest he allowed a score to be entered into the database that he believed to be
improper, and that he did that in the hope of recieving money.
No need to PM me about this further. It is disappointing, but I would like the community to
consider that all TG refs are not the same and that the admitted actions of one does not reflect
them all. The historic TG refs that helped build TG should be appreciated for their great
contributions during all the challenging times.
Score disputes shall continue to be handled on a case by case basis.
Thank you.
Exhibit A - 000032
Not directly related to this score but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing
and scores at TG considering he has publically admitted to these actions?
09-06-2017, 08:09 PM
xelnia
Todd speaks about these scores for about two minutes here (from about 55:01 to 57:16):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/172863299?t=55m01s
Todd states twice that he has recorded footage of Billy's DK and DKJR games. He also states
that he gave this video footage to the "appropriate" referee, without giving a name.
If Todd is to be believed, he was not acting in a referee capacity, but simply as a witness. This
would also cast doubt on MorningDove's participation as a verifying referee. Why submit
tapes to the "appropriate referee" if one was already a witness? There should be some 2010-
era referee out there who attended the 2010 IVGHOF Big Band event, viewed these tapes,
and can confirm this story. Stephen Boyer has already said he did not verify this score. It
would bring into question the "Referee" method of verification currently listed in the
database.
If PSP is to be believed, no referee ever received tapes for this game (or DKJR). PSP claims
Billy told him that the scores were witnessed by a TG referee (presumably implying Todd
and/or MorningDove) and were already official. The games were subsequently "verified" by a
group of TG referees with a secret ballot at the 2010 IVGHOF Big Bag event. While PSP
doesn't explicitly state it, the implication here is that this group of referees never received the
tapes Todd claims to have.
It might be worth starting a dispute on Billy's DKJR score as well.
09-07-2017, 12:03 PM
Blastaar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xelnia

If PSP is to be believed...
I'd really like to hear Dave Nelson's account of this affair at this point.
Can nobody get a statement from him?
09-07-2017, 06:59 PM
Jace Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by swaggers

Not directly related to this score but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing
and scores at TG considering he has publically admitted to these actions?
Any score can be challenged and it will stand or fall on its own merits.
Quote:
but what are your opinions on this person's personal standing Exhibit A - 000033
My opinion is that it is unfortunate that his admitted self-interested breach of ethics as a TG

ref may potentially have an undermining negative impact on the perception of the other
initiatives or projects that he is involved with.
There are many good people associated with some of those other projects and I worry now
that they might get negatively branded as also having "questionable moral character" due to
the default perception of guilt-by-association that the community has.
It's challenging. Once a person has shown themselves capable of making unethical decisions
for direct personal monetary gain, its hard to undo that perception and assumption that
everything they touch is tainted by that motivation.
09-08-2017, 04:51 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Any score can be challenged and it will stand or fall on its own merits.
My opinion is that it is unfortunate that his admitted self-interested breach of ethics as a TG

ref may potentially have an undermining negative impact on the perception of the other
initiatives or projects that he is involved with.
There are many good people associated with some of those other projects and I worry now
that they might get negatively branded as also having "questionable moral character" due to
the default perception of guilt-by-association that the community has.
It's challenging. Once a person has shown themselves capable of making unethical decisions
for direct personal monetary gain, its hard to undo that perception and assumption that
everything they touch is tainted by that motivation.
In the new TGSAP system that is easy to disprove. Sure, people can vote/not vote for certain
people but that's as far as it goes. In the old TG, the evidence verified by a single ref who has
taken money to allow certain scores to be entered, or maybe in some cases not entered, has to
be there. If he did it once, we will automatically think he did it for all, just human nature. We
simply can't know due to the way the evidence needed back them to have scores verified.
Your right, he may have only done it on a handful of scores, maybe only 1 score, but they will
all be viewed like this.
Worst part is, some of the scores found to be skeptical that were verified by PSP will now
automatically include the player as bribing PSP to enter them. It's going to be a huge snowball
of a mess to fix. Glad he didn't verify any of my stuff.
Side note, since he has admitted this has anybody asked him what scores he entered for
money? I seriously doubt people will ever trust his word, but he has admitted to accepting
money for scores and people believe him. If he calls out some scores that people are able to
dispute, might be able to help find a few cheaters as well. Paying someone to over look rules
and let scores be entered for money is cheating in my book.
Sorry this message might not make complete sense, I've been awake for 5 minutes. Context is
there though. Exhibit A - 000034
09-08-2017, 06:22 AM
Snowflake
Hes very jealous of billy mitchel and a few others. He'll have no problem saying he falsified
mitchel scores but that just begs the question of if he's making that up to hurt Mitchell. I'm
also sure plenty of good people with real scores submitted and had psp verify their real scores.
You know what though plenty of people did real scores and didn't have a camera on hand at
the time it happens. I don't see how verification from a ref who will make his decision based
on money is any different than someone just saying "trust me". We all suspected but now have
an admission that scores verified by pat do not require evidence to get into the database so the
claim that evidence must've existed at the time is a fallacy. All that said I'm not about to just
believe pat when he makes a claim like this and actually wields his own bad reputation to try
to hurt people. Remember todd said there were tapes. So although I would agree any score
entered by Patrick is meaningless I'm not about to take his word for which scores he did and
didn't enter.
09-08-2017, 12:02 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Hes very jealous of billy mitchel and a few others. He'll have no problem saying he falsified
mitchel scores but that just begs the question of if he's making that up to hurt Mitchell. I'm
also sure plenty of good people with real scores submitted and had psp verify their real scores.
You know what though plenty of people did real scores and didn't have a camera on hand at
the time it happens. I don't see how verification from a ref who will make his decision based
on money is any different than someone just saying "trust me". We all suspected but now have
an admission that scores verified by pat do not require evidence to get into the database so the
claim that evidence must've existed at the time is a fallacy. All that said I'm not about to just
believe pat when he makes a claim like this and actually wields his own bad reputation to try
to hurt people. Remember todd said there were tapes. So although I would agree any score
entered by Patrick is meaningless I'm not about to take his word for which scores he did and
didn't enter.
So then how can you/anybody believe he actually took money to enter false scores? He could
be making it up to hurt others because he doesn't like them.
09-08-2017, 02:09 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegamer1185

So then how can you/anybody believe he actually took money to enter false scores? He could
be making it up to hurt others because he doesn't like them.
I dont fully, I explained that in earlier comments. As i said when the first came up is, when
someone says they lied, either it means they lied then or they're lying now. Therefore I do
know for sure they're a liar but dont which time the lie was. As we know for sure he's a liar it
brings into question everything else he said. Also, either its true he did it for money, or he
actually thinks lying about doing it for money was clever. Anyone who thinks lying and
saying they did a score for money is a good idea says alot about them. So although I dont
think we can use his "confession" against billy, I absolutely think we can use it when
determining if we believe anything he says or anything he verifies. Exhibit A - 000035
09-08-2017, 02:26 PM
The Evener
Whether you believe PSP or not, he has outlined the following scenario:
-Mitchell's score was not verified on the eve of the event

-TG referees were asked to vote by secret ballot whether to accept the score on the day of the
event
-a majority voted yes
It would seem to me the simplest action would be to confirm that a vote took place; according
to PSP, it involved all TG referees at that time. How many individuals would that be? More
than five?
As well, might the closed TG referee archives contain any discussion following the event
about the vote/subsequent entry of the score into the database that would corroborate PSP's
account?
09-08-2017, 05:32 PM
JJT_Defender
From the Bottom Video at about :40 Seconds in When Billy Mitchael States that their were
many World Champions Video Game Players from Boomers many Years ago
he was talking about Grand Prix Race 'O' Rama at the Time The Worlds Largest Arcade
Game Room in the Early 80's Built like a Castle I JJT Estimate 4,000 Arcade Games &
Redemption Machine's
With Rows of 20 Defender, Pac-Man, Galaga, Donkey Kong, Robotron etc. It was a
Awesome site Wow! I lived just up the Road about a Half a Mile away I JJT Johnny went
there every day Open 24 Hours a Day
It Started out in the early 70's Pinball Machine's later Go Karts & Bike Races Then Arcade
Games etc.
it was Off of State 84 & University Drive Close to the The Florida Turnpike in Fort
Lauderdale, Florida it Later Moved to Dania off Ih-95 they were Bought Out and Renamed it
Boomers Originally from California.
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000036

09-08-2017, 05:49 PM
JJT_Defender
The Player JJT Juan Torres , Jack Gale Doris Self, Billy Michael, Chris Ayra, Stephan
Krogman and Many More who Played at Gran Prix 'O' Rama in the Golden Age of Classic
Arcade Gaming in the early 80's
Here my Prediction I see Billy Mitchael coming out of Retirement inside of 1 Year he will
Try to WR on Donkey Kong.Donkey Kong jr. m Ms. Pac-Man, Burgertime.
If anything since some Twin Galaxy Members doubt him and are questioning he will no doubt
show that he Can do it Live getting at 1.100 Million on Donkey Kong & DK jr 1.3 Million
Maybe Burgertime 8 million, or try Ms Pac-Man
Billy Loves the Spot Light and Showmanship, and Be the Center of Attention what Better
Time to do it. I JJT Johnny am 4 Half Year Older that him I have watched him over the Years
their Are Patterns that are Consistent with Billy Something will happen within a Year for sure
No doubt
Exhibit A - 000037
Now with This Dispute is just insures it for sure.
I agree with you all their Funny and Inconsistent & Questionable things in these videos.
It is like watching a Magic Show , or Broadway show you do not know what is behind the
Curtain.
09-09-2017, 01:43 AM
rotunda
Quote:
Here my Prediction I see Billy Mitchael coming out of Retirement inside of 1 Year he will
Try to WR on Donkey Kong.Donkey Kong jr. m Ms. Pac-Man, Burgertime.
If anything since some Twin Galaxy Members doubt him and are questioning he will no doubt
show that he Can do it Live getting at 1.100 Million on Donkey Kong & DK jr 1.3 Million
Maybe Burgertime 8 million, or try Ms Pac-Man
Although I find this doubtful, I would love to see that happen!
09-13-2017, 04:59 PM
Robert.F
Billy need a spanking
Billy needs a spanking ,,,, There no concrete proof this score was achieved on the day in
question,,, Tape`s (TAPES?) with no sound are the only advance that the score was play out...
but by whom? the probability are endless... Maybe Billy has people chained up in his
basement cranking out Donkey Kong tapes for him; that why there no sound, for the
porpoises to hide there moaning and groaning on them poor soles. Maybe billy got that score
on his own with his Frankenstein recording setup (direct feed to a vcr no sound),,,, Either way
there was collusion invalid in this and direct deception all the way, is what I`m saying,
Enough that would get any TG submission disallowed , and i even thing back in the day ,,,,,
Billy needs a spanking he need`s to eat some crow,,,,,, manipulation and distortion of the facts
"Hay Billy What The **** is up with that"
09-15-2017, 07:59 AM
tudose
dwayne [08|Jan 11:08:50 PM]: did anyone know hank did a power point presentation to get
bills score removed long time ago
dwayne [08|Jan 11:09:24 PM]: that was when dave was referee and the new crew took over
can anybody shed some light on this? i know for a fact that it happened, but not much is clear
about how exactly it went down or what specific pieces of evidence were provided. dwayne
had a lot to say about billy and todd during his visits to DKF shoutbox a couple years ago...
09-15-2017, 03:07 PM
Blastaar
1 Attachment(s)
Okay, here's a staff photo from 2010. Can anybody name the rest?
1) Pete Bouvier (RIP)

2)
Exhibit A - 000038
3) Dave Nelson
4)
5) Patrick Scott Patterson
6)
7)
8)
9) Adam Wood
10)
09-15-2017, 03:16 PM
Barra
2- Michael sroka
4- josh houslander
6- PSPs wife?
09-15-2017, 03:19 PM
Blastaar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barra

6- PSPs wife?
How does that happen? She's cute.
09-15-2017, 03:20 PM
Barra
@RaGe will know the rest
09-15-2017, 03:51 PM
Blastaar
Quote:

Okay, here's a staff photo from 2010. Can anybody name the rest?
1) Pete Bouvier (RIP)

2)
3) Dave Nelson
4)
5) Patrick Scott Patterson
6)
7)
8)
9) Adam Wood
10)
From Left to Right: TGI CEO Pete Bouvier, Michael Sroka, David Nelson, Josh Houslander,
Patrick Scott Patterson, Melissa Leigh Patterson, William Willemstyn III, Matt Bradford,
Adam Wood, and Tim Stodden
So, can any of THEM be asked about Patterson's claims about how the score was accepted?
Exhibit A - 000039
09-15-2017, 04:15 PM
timmell
Quote:

From Left to Right: TGI CEO Pete Bouvier, Michael Sroka, David Nelson, Josh Houslander,
Patrick Scott Patterson, Melissa Leigh Patterson, William Willemstyn III, Matt Bradford,
Adam Wood, and Tim Stodden
So, can any of THEM be asked about Patterson's claims about how the score was accepted?
Bradford, Josh and I were left out of any discussions as we were not referees.
I have been digging through video footage to see if there is anything that can help from that
time/event as I have hours of footage.
09-15-2017, 04:40 PM
Blastaar
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmell

Bradford, Josh and I were left out of any discussions as we were not referees
Does that mean that William, Adam, and Tim were referees? Do you know of any others circa
2010?
Quote:

I have been digging through video footage to see if there is anything that can help from that
time/event as I have hours of footage.
Awesome. Please let us know whether you find anything of interest.
09-15-2017, 08:23 PM
timmell
Quote:

Does that mean that William, Adam, and Tim were referees? Do you know of any others circa
2010?
Awesome. Please let us know whether you find anything of interest.
Yes, plus Nelson, Patrick Patterson, his wife Melissa were the 6 staff refs there at that time.
09-16-2017, 06:37 AM
Blastaar
Exhibit A - 000040
Quote:

Yes, plus Nelson, Patrick Patterson, his wife Melissa were the 6 staff refs there at that time.
So you can confirm that Todd Rogers and Morning Dove Mahoney were not referees in
2010?
09-16-2017, 03:24 PM
timmell
Quote:

So you can confirm that Todd Rogers and Morning Dove Mahoney were not referees in
2010?
Todd was a ref in 2010. Morningdove no to best of my knowledge.
todd was not working as a ref at the IVGHOF 2010, as he was a inductee.
09-17-2017, 06:12 PM
timmell
here is footage of Billy Announcing the record, Don't if it has anything worthwhile. The end
of the video is great with Mr. Awesome.
http://persistentproductions.net/tgi/mitchell2010.mp4
09-18-2017, 04:27 AM
Robert.F
Cool 1080p
Cool 1080p now only if there was a 1080p recording of Billy sitting down at Boomers
playing DK with the 100 or so cheering and recording with there cell phones :)
09-19-2017, 11:50 AM
rotunda
Is this thread pretty much dead now then?
Seems to have run out of steam and there is no new evidence coming forward. I very much
doubt this score will be challenged successfully.
09-19-2017, 03:49 PM
Robert.F
for me its the opposite
For me its the opposite , Are you a Billy supporter planted here to put doubt in or minds or
maybe you or lacking in understanding to the Dispute ,Its the lack of bios evidence outside of
TG insiders that is missing here ,,,,, and amazingly there not bringing anything to the table the
ones where there (I`m not hanging my self for billy i bet there saying and i dont blame them)
...... What billy did was bull crap (Unbelievable) i say,; Pulling off the DK and DKjr record in
one day. Even more unbelievable is his thinking we would not like some proof other then Him
Saying he Did... it not Enough for me thank you vary much, he had to much influence with in
Exhibit A - 000041
TG and i want out side evidence to proof the even`s as the they say they did happon ........ The
End :)
09-19-2017, 04:05 PM
Barra
Quote:

Is this thread pretty much dead now then?
Seems to have run out of steam and there is no new evidence coming forward. I very much
doubt this score will be challenged successfully.
I agree it'll never be removed without the testimony of at least a few of the refs involved in
the PSP Saga. The evidence is circumstantial at best but you can't deny there's at least a
suspicion of something untoward happening.
However at this point even being able to dispute this should be considered a win. This score
will forever be marked with [Disputed] next to it. That's good enough for me.
09-19-2017, 04:09 PM
Robert.F
cover his tracks
I bet Billy wish he had a time machine to go back and cover up his tracks better (maybe 5
min`s of him playing at Boomers) but he doesn't or at less i never seen it , I like to see Robs
videos on the day in question; you know the guy at Boomers that upload this deceiving tape to
YouTube (the proven to be deceiving Tape of the board swap) , You know the guy Billy
proclaimed has more video footage of Billy in the world then any other guy, i like to see him
come foreword.... there is not enough events it did happon really happon; but more it didn't ,,,
innocent till proven guilty i say , So bring on the proof i say, it really did it happon?
09-20-2017, 01:41 AM
rotunda
Quote:
Are you a Billy supporter planted here to put doubt in or minds or maybe you or lacking in
understanding to the Dispute ,Its the lack of bios evidence outside of TG insiders that is
missing here
No, I'm not a Billy supporter I'm a proud neutral when it comes to things here at TG. I don't
get involved in the politics.
I'd also like to think I don't lack understanding of the dispute system and I think I'm pretty
close to being correct in my assumptions here. To remove a score we need solid evidence and
I don't see that happening. The thread lost steam a long time ago now.
I agree something does look off here but, I also don't think at the stage we can prove it 100%
and in that case the score will remain.
09-20-2017, 02:24 PM
Julius Reigns
Exhibit A - 000042
Quote:

No, I'm not a Billy supporter I'm a proud neutral when it comes to things here at TG. I don't
get involved in the politics.
I'd also like to think I don't lack understanding of the dispute system and I think I'm pretty
close to being correct in my assumptions here. To remove a score we need solid evidence and
I don't see that happening. The thread lost steam a long time ago now.
I agree something does look off here but, I also don't think at the stage we can prove it 100%
and in that case the score will remain.
Agreed 100%. A score shouldn't even come close to being removed because its suspicious. It
should be disputed with a chance to prove it wasn't achieved within the rules if its suspicious.
In this case, the dispute system worked great I think. There was never any evidence submitted
that would prove this record false, therefore it should stand. If any evidence ever comes to
light, the door has been opened and it has a platform to be submitted. Until then, if ever,
congratulations to Mr. Mitchell on his achievements.
09-20-2017, 08:53 PM
Robert.F
false evidence
"There was never any evidence submitted that would prove this record false" Ok Fine but
where is the evidence submitted proving it real ?
09-21-2017, 07:07 AM
Julius Reigns
Quote:

Oh, I definitely agree with you, but it's been made clear that unless we have a time machine to
prove a negative (which is about the only way) or admission of guilt, nothing will be done.
Because even if you prove a score impossible, the troops will be rallied and you and anyone
who agrees with you will be labeled as having an agenda outside of just wanting to get rid of
bogus scores.
09-21-2017, 09:22 AM
Mapler90210
Quote:

Jace has stated this before, but any score's presence on the leaderboard is an indication that it's
evidence package met the requirements of the time it was instated. While historical
requirements have proven to be not very convincing in the current time (and worse, it was
often wholly dependent on individuals to be trustworthy, some of whomExhibit
proved later on that
A - 000043
they were not), the offical TG stance seems to be that it will honor that history. If we want a
score removed, we can't just state that the evidence was lame, we have to prove that the score
was fake.
In this case, the evidence proves that Billy and some others lied and misled people, but it does
not prove that the score was fake. I think the current dispute system simply does not make
removing this score possible at the current time. I am happy that it is at least marked disputed
and that the first page of this thread is sufficiently convincing that Billy pulled something
shady with this
09-21-2017, 03:10 PM
Benjamin Frew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapler90210

Jace has stated this before, but any score's presence on the leaderboard is an indication that it's
evidence package met the requirements of the time it was instated.
If this mantra also applies to fake scores typed into the system - Todd Rogers style - that is
concerning.
I'm thankful to not be in Jace's shoes. It's tough dealing with a leaderboard that has been
compromised.
09-21-2017, 03:17 PM
datagod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frew

If this mantra also applies to fake scores typed into the system - Todd Rogers style - that is
concerning.
I'm thankful to not be in Jace's shoes. It's tough dealing with a leaderboard that has been
compromised.
That would also making walking difficult for the both of you!
09-24-2017, 08:35 PM
Robert.F
ha ha ha haaa hA A
ha ha ha haaa hA A
09-24-2017, 11:34 PM
francoisadt
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000044
To those DK expert adjudicators, if somebody today play a DK game and just do the same ,
pulling out a DK PCB putting in a DK Jnr PCB will that eliminate the chance that such a
submission be approved in the TGSP system today? The main aspect is actuualy to show the
real PCB if not most gamers vote it off. Look at previous examples in the adjudication system
that do not contain video of the PCB. So in this case what is acceptable for future
submissions? So if I do the same it would be acceptable and so also other's playing DK or DK
Jnr?
09-25-2017, 05:55 AM
Mapler90210
Quote:
Originally Posted by francoisadt

To those DK expert adjudicators, if somebody today play a DK game and just do the same ,
pulling out a DK PCB putting in a DK Jnr PCB will that eliminate the chance that such a
submission be approved in the TGSP system today? The main aspect is actuualy to show the
real PCB if not most gamers vote it off. Look at previous examples in the adjudication system
that do not contain video of the PCB. So in this case what is acceptable for future
submissions? So if I do the same it would be acceptable and so also other's playing DK or DK
Jnr?
I don't understand what you're asking here.
Billy didn't pull out a DK PCB and put in a DK jr PCB. He took out a DK jr PCB then put a
DK jr PCB in. Then he claimed it was footage of him changing PCBs out between his DK
score attempts and his DK jr score attempts.
09-25-2017, 06:05 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000045
That's correct. The "board swap" video is clearly intentionally faked evidence from the event.
There is no other explanation. You don't accidentally film yourself twice with just a DK Jr
PCB and claim you're swapping out a DK PCB.
We don't have access to all of the original evidence submitted for this score and we don't
know if the faked "board swap" video was submitted as part of the evidence to TG, but if a
new submission was made with this video as part of the evidence package the adjudication
would certainly be rejected and the player would probably be banned from TG for cheating
for submitting faked evidence.
09-25-2017, 06:12 AM
Mapler90210
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstrain

That's correct. The "board swap" video is clearly intentionally faked evidence from the event.
There is no other explanation. You don't accidentally film yourself twice with just a DK Jr
PCB and claim you're swapping out a DK PCB.
We don't have access to all of the original evidence submitted for this score and we don't
know if the faked "board swap" video was submitted as part of the evidence to TG, but if a
new submission was made with this video as part of the evidence package the adjudication
would certainly be rejected and the player would probably be banned from TG for cheating
for submitting faked evidence.
The issue with this, as I understand it, is that supposedly the evidence for TG was the in-
person verification. The videos themselves were for publicity or something.
That said, I'm not actually 100% sure if what I just said is true because of all the conflicting
information around this score.
09-25-2017, 07:53 AM
francoisadt
Quote:

My Apology I misunderstood what others have written below, thought it was two different
types of PCBs.
My question in essence is that: Is swapping PCBs allowed even if it is the same type of PCDs
then?
Second question:
What real proof is this then that he has cheated if the same type of PCB is displayed? If he did
play a DK game on a DK Jnr PCB is that allowed?
Question 3:
Exhibit A - 000046
if one do play two type of DK games using the same cabinet then swapping PCB before game
play should be allowed. Just plug them in do the wiring and play?
09-25-2017, 08:53 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Second question:
What real proof is this then that he has cheated if the same type of PCB is displayed? If he did
play a DK game on a DK Jnr PCB is that allowed?
You can't play a DK game on a DK Jr PCB. They're different games. There is no DK PCB in
the video, so the questions are:
1) How did he play and set the DK record live that day as claimed if there was no DK PCB
present?
2) Why did they make a fake video that claimed to be showing a "board swap" when there
was no actual "board swap"?
09-25-2017, 08:59 AM
BenMullen
yep
Just read through a bit on this score on the DK forum, watch some of the videos etc... Seems
pretty scammy. I think I would call the score either fake, or at least unverifiable to the point
that it should not be on a record site. It remains not only here but on the DK forum as well
(which is really more official in the context of DK, so that is interesting).
One tricky bit is its involvement in a movie. People might come looking for it so this could be
a lone instance where an asterisk is in order.
Heck Mr. Mitchell himself would likely simply concede that this is not even that good a score
by modern standards so what the heck right?
I say vote yes.
09-25-2017, 09:31 AM
JJT_Defender
Twin Galaxy Members Were Voting on Did Billy L. Mitcheel Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade
Game Donkey Kong
1. If their is Video Evidence & Pictures of the of the Score 1,062,800 on Arcade Game
Donkey Kong then their is No Problem it gets Accepted
Regardless of the Wild Odd Video's it was like a TV show and the Many Questions that came
along with them
Twin Galaxy Members Keep Focused the Main thing is Did Billy Mitcheel Score 1,062,800
on the Arcade Game Donkey Kong if their is Video Evidence of the Score then Vote YES
Accept or was it Based on his Word & Hersey from other People then Vote NO don't Accept
Really Easy Not Complicated Exhibit A - 000047

Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade Game Donkey Kong Score 1,062,800 on the Arcade Game
Donkey Kong
JJT_Defender Johnny World Champion & Worlds Best & # 1 Racer, 1st Place on the Modern
Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 43 Cities, & 7 Years Created by Raw Thrills &
Owned By Eugene Jarvis Vid Kidz Williams,Midway & Creator of Cruis'n Series & Defender
Many More.
These are Just Stats for my Record Keeping Log been their More than a Year
Submission Points 13,366 + 60 for Sponsor = 13,426
I JJT Johnny Correctly Adjudicated 13,426 Video Game Submissions at .99777% Percent
Accuracy
Adjudicated Video Game Submissions I JJT Johnny Got Wrong a Total of 30 in Twin
Galaxy's Adjudication Archives Accepted, Rejected & Cancel Archives
09-25-2017, 10:36 AM
gstrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMullen

Seems pretty scammy. I think I would call the score either fake, or at least unverifiable to the
point that it should not be on a record site. It remains not only here but on the DK forum as
well (which is really more official in the context of DK, so that is interesting).
A current rule of the DK forum high score list (http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?

topic=366.0) is that scores accepted at TG are automatically included in the list. That is why
this score is listed on the DK Forum High Score List. If this dispute was accepted and the
score was removed from TG, it would certainly be removed from the DK forum high score
list as well.
That said, this score dispute review of this 1,062,800 score at TG was started by Jeremy
Young who is currently the principal maintainer of the DK Forum High Score List (username
xelnia on the DK Forums and here on the TG forums).
09-25-2017, 08:29 PM
xelnia
George is generally correct about DKF accepting TG scores. This used to be explicitly
defined in the DKF ruleset, but has been removed for two reasons: 1) The rules went through
Exhibit A - 000048
a massive rewrite, for simplification and clarity. This was done in large part to help players
whose first language might not be English (a situation I dealt with first-hand while living in
Japan). 2) With the TGSAP system, all evidence can be examined directly, so there's no need
to rely on TG's stamp of approval for a score. Any score submitted to TG will always be
given a TG source credit, however.
All pre-TGSAP scores (including this one under dispute) fell under the umbrella of Corey
Chamber's original vision: accept all DK scores from reputable leaderboards (TG, MARP,
etc.). While I'm currently the principal maintainer of the DKF leaderboard, @stella_blue also
put in an enormous amount of crucial work. He could chime in regarding our process if he
wishes. I believe there has only been one strict removal of a TG score from the DKF
leaderboard without any sort of community discussion/involvement: Jonathan Hale's score of
100 points. This was due to him admitting to hacking the TG database at one point and
"leaving breadcrumbs" on the scoreboard. Some DK3 scores have been re-classified (but not
removed) when their INPs became available and it was found that they were played on the
wrong settings, despite being accepted by TG.
I acknowledge the low possibility of this dispute being successful, and that's the primary
reason Billy's scores still stand on DKF...all we really have is a long history of shady behavior
with no real smoking gun. I had hoped that raising the dispute on TG would've helped with
that. And if this score does get removed, which of his scores do we put in its place...the
equally shady 1,050,200 or 1,047,200? Or one of his actually public 900k games?
10-11-2017, 07:24 PM
Robert.F
So is this feasible with the sale of TG; dose Billy have a A contractual agreement
A gag order a kick you in the teeth leagalaty thing ?
Why has billy not been hang
Too many puppies are being shot in the dark.

Too many puppies are trained not to bark.
10-15-2017, 07:53 AM
RTM
As a matter of historical record (I'm not voting in this thread)...
-> The 1.014M which I verified from Bill...mentioned on page 1 of this thread...was only
submitted to TG AFTER I received the 1.006M tape from Steve Wiebe.
Bill was totally miffed that TG was potentially going to acknowledge Steve's run as the 1st-
ever 1M score. So what he DID was this...
Steve's 999,500 run (never logged into TG) was received shortly before the 1.006M around
7/02-7/05 range if I remember correctly. Then news of the 1M came in.
There was an August event in NYC which Walter and Billy were both speakers for at Lincoln
Center. I was there in attendance as was "Arkanoid" record holder Zak Hample and a few
others who came in to see. For this event, Bill brought in his tape and had it playing in the
lobby for the hour prior to the event, and then he publicly announced at the event that he had
done what no one thought was possible and scored 1M on DK.
Billy told me...not via E-MAIL but over the phone...that when he found out Steve had got 1M
Exhibit A - 000049
he called Steve to congratulate him BUT told him that he had done so a year earlier.
Bill was annoyed that at inception I was prepared to acknowledge Steve's tape as the 1st-TG-
verified 1M...he said he did his earlier and told Steve as much, but Steve is the one who sent
the tape in.
I had a 30+ page article written on the world's first TWO 1M point games...not indicating
which had come first...but that article never made it into TG because of the Brian Kuh
revelation as highlighted in KoK about Steve's boards. We had at that point a "fool me once,
shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" position, to be honest.
Being that Steve's tape was not being accepted as initially planned Bill withdrew his
submission of the 1.014M performance.
It was an ego thing. Back in 2000/2001 during an MTV interview, Bill gave a speech about
how he had something planned that would be if accomplished the biggest thing in gaming
ever. Quite the hype. At the first Mall of America event, I told Bill in person what I thought
he meant by this if I were him, and I've stated this within the TG forum...I felt that he would
be going for a simultaneous re-capture of all 5 of his old records (DK, DK Jr, Burgertime, etc)
and that would include 1M on DK, 1M on DK Jr, etc.
HE TOLD ME...with Dwayne Richard walking by right next to us but I doubt Dwayne would
remember after 17 years..."Who told you that ?" and I told Bill that if I were him, that's what I
would do. And then he told me that I was the closest to guessing what he had intended. he can
deny this conversation all he wants but I know dang well what he told me back then with
crystal clarity.
Anyway, point being, his hand was forced when Steve did the 1M submission on DK so he
rushed announcing his 1.014M only to have it rescinded. In effect...someone else stole his
thunder. Like I said, it was an ego-thing.
-> As for the board-swapping. I never actually saw his 1.062M performance, I only read
about it. But also as a matter of historical record, I had refused to validate Steve Wiebe's
1.049M performance on related grounds. He botched the filming of the board inside the
machine both immediately after it was inserted and again after the performance ended.
Therefore, had this performance come by way (Bill's 1.062M) I have to imagine that in line
with my decision on Steve's 1.049M performance I would also have not accepted the 1.062M
by Bill. On technical grounds alone, but such decisions have to be called based on the letter of
the law.
10-15-2017, 06:33 PM
xelnia
@RTM Thanks for the history. I've actually been meaning to ask you a couple of questions.
1) Do you remember if the 1.014M score you reviewed was a direct feed tape or a recording
of a live performance? If it was live, do you remember the circumstances around it (was it
filmed at home, at a local arcade, etc.)?
2) Is there any way to accurately date either the 1.014M or 1.047M scores, either absolutely
or in relation to each other or Wiebe's early 1M+ scores?
3) For @RTM , @timmell , @Barthax , @Ripper , and any other former TG refs who
might be reading this: Have any of you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video
footage of the LIVE performances of Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm
talking about real, over-the-shoulder, clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed,
Exhibit A - 000050
not post-game high score tables, post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.
Moving on...there has been a lot of discussion recently, off TG, about the methods Billy used
to record his previous scores. This discussion has focused around whether the available
footage has truly been generated by a Donkey Kong PCB, or something entirely different, like
a PC video card. There is very little footage for THIS score, but some can be seen in an earlier
post by @timmell :
Quote:

here is footage of Billy Announcing the record, Don't if it has anything worthwhile. The end
of the video is great with Mr. Awesome.
http://persistentproductions.net/tgi/mitchell2010.mp4
While he's not a TG member, DK/DKJR remix developer Sock Master has some observations
that are worth noting. I'm posting some excerpts of our conversations here:
This deals directly with this 1.062 scores, as seen in Sroka's video:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sock Master

In the Billy Mitchell videos announcing his record where we see gameplay in two monitors...
There is *WAYYYYY* too much blank area around all four edges of the screen. DK output
pretty much fills the entire screen at the sides and there is very little vertical blanking
(horizontal to us once to the monitor is rotated) in the video signal.
More general information on DK PCB video vs. PC video:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sock Master

DK hardware, created in 1980, which was never intended to generate broadcast quality video
does a pretty poor job of following standards so it's actually a lot different from standard. The
timing of it's signal elements is non-conforming. It omits a lot of signals.. It just generates the
minimum it needed for a monitor to display something reasonable and uses the least amount
of electronic components to do it.
A PC video card on the other hand makes an effort to do things to standards and
specifications. It's more modern. Electronic components are cheaper and more capable in the
2000s. A PC generates all the calibration and sync signal elements to keep monitors happy.
PCs also support features like colored borders, etc.
When a VCR records video, it records the video signals - even the ones outside of the visible
portion of the screen onto the tape. Normally we don't get to see these signals unless we use
an oscilloscope, but if the tape is damaged, the rotating head slows down when it hits
damaged/wrinkled portions of the tape. When it slows down, the recording loses sync with
the source video and we can see these signals shift into the visible picture area.
Vertically (horizontal to us because the monitor is sideways), DK hardware generates a simple

video signal. It outputs exactly 224 scan lines of picture data, then exactly 40 blank lines of
black between frames. Halfway through those 40 lines it generates a simple vertical sync
pulse which lasts 3 or 4 lines (between 3 or 4 depending on the position of the knobs on the
Exhibit A - 000051
back of the video PCB because the circuit generating the signal is pretty dodgy)
For reference, 40 scan lines is exactly the width of 5 girder tiles in the game screen. We can
use ratios of 'girder tile lengths' to estimate widths of signals outside of the visible portion of
the screen even in blurry youtube videos
...[t]his also shows *how difficult* it is to generate a signal that a VCR can record from DK's
dodgy video. It's really improbable that anyone had actually gone through all the trouble to
successfully do this in the early 2000s.
With all of that in mind, I ask you to take a look at the known direct feed recordings of Billy's
games. Perhaps there others out there with knowledge of PCBs, PC video, and VCRs that can
chime in. At any rate, these videos don't directly relate to the 1.062M under dispute, but might
be useful to establish a pattern of behavior that IS directly related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxE1amo6QxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obx10--ftL0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoLYQxJ0g7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_JfLRIiiQw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe28rDdJ7xQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GilzqqNYiyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0WxlSqpo
10-15-2017, 06:50 PM
RTM
Quote:

@RTM Thanks for the history. I've actually been meaning to ask you a couple of questions.1)
Do you remember if the 1.014M score you reviewed was a direct feed tape or a recording of a
live performance? If it was live, do you remember the circumstances around it (was it filmed
at home, at a local arcade, etc.)?2) Is there any way to accurately date either the 1.014M or
1.047M scores, either absolutely or in relation to each other or Wiebe's early 1M+ scores?3)
For @RTM , @timmell , @Barthax , @Ripper , and any other former TG refs who might
be reading this: Have any of you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video footage of
the LIVE performances of Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm talking
about real, over-the-shoulder, clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed, not
post-game high score tables, post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.
RTM REPLY - dang, not allowing me to use bold, underline and colour again...I tell you,
replying on the TG forum is totally inconsistent :(As for the questions above...1st - the
1.014M was definitely direct feed...I am 100% positive of this2nd - the dates...you are not
going to like this. Bill turned in the 1.014M AFTER Steve turned in the 1.006M and
BEFORE Aug15th of that year as he presented it at the NYC Lincoln Center event. However
Bill CLAIMS that he did the score approx a full year earlier. There is absolutely no way to
verify that claim. As for the 1.047M...I can only tell you when the score was presented. It was
during the May 2005 ACAM event, and to be more specific Thursday of that very week was
when "part 1" of the performance was shown in the Cram cabin (referred to in KoK as "Brian
Kuh's Cabin"). However, Billy did this obviously before the event. He ALSO did this at some
point after Steve Wiebe's original 947,200 score because Billy intentionally made the score
1,047,200 points. 3rd - I have only personally seen VHS footage of the 1.014M and 1.047M
scores. I never saw any subsequent score. I DID, however, see Billy playing live at ACAM
way, way back in either 1999 or 2000 when he died in the mid-300K range in an elevator
Exhibit A - 000052
stage on his 1st life and immediately quit playing...that was the famous event which was the
catalyst for Billy's claim that the Funspot machine was "possessed". A fun factoid to be sure.
10-15-2017, 06:51 PM
RTM
Any idea why the TG forum reply eliminated all the blank lines in my last reply ? I was
unable to use bold-face, underline and colour as well.
10-16-2017, 12:17 PM
xelnia
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTM

1st - the 1.014M was definitely direct feed...I am 100% positive of this
Do you recall any statements from Billy as to why this was, or why he only submitted direct
feed footage for all of his DK games?
On an unrelated note, I recently watched a Steve Wiebe interview from 2009 in which he
claims that he submitted an 885k DK score to TG around 2002, which was accepted. He says
this was done on the same Double DK as the 947k, but it's incredibly significant if there was
an 885k score before the 947k...it would have been the world record! That interview (with
Mark Alpiger) was the first and only time I've heard of such a score. Do you know anything
about it?
10-16-2017, 03:50 PM
RTM
Quote:

Do you recall any statements from Billy as to why this was, or why he only submitted direct
feed footage for all of his DK games?
On an unrelated note, I recently watched a Steve Wiebe interview from 2009 in which he
claims that he submitted an 885k DK score to TG around 2002, which was accepted. He says
this was done on the same Double DK as the 947k, but it's incredibly significant if there was
an 885k score before the 947k...it would have been the world record! That interview (with
Mark Alpiger) was the first and only time I've heard of such a score. Do you know anything
about it?
RTM REPLY - I might only be able to answer partially on these queries.
As to Billy, I have never heard from either himself or from his buddy Chris as to why he
engages in direct feed for DK. I won't even hazard a guess as it would be pure speculation.
I never heard of an 885K from Steve. After the 947K his very next submission was 985K...a
score which nearly mirrored what he had done at ACAM in 2005. The 985K was around May
of 2004. Towards the end of June 2004 he did 999,500 an then a few days after that 1.006M.
Exhibit A - 000053
I have NO idea why Steve said 885K was TG-accepted in 2002 when his 947K score has
remained for quite awhile before it was yanked due to DDK revelations.
10-16-2017, 11:20 PM
Barthax
Quote:

3) For [...] @Barthax , and any other former TG refs who might be reading this: Have any of
you seen, or are you aware of (without a doubt), video footage of the LIVE performances of
Billy's 1.014M, 1.047M, 1.05M, or 1.062M scores? I'm talking about real, over-the-shoulder,
clear camcorder footage of these games...not direct feed, not post-game high score tables,
post-game board swaps, or anything else like that.
That's an easy answer for myself: I never took part in any Arcade submissions during my
tenure. Just for clarity: MAME was a different platform back then as it is now and I did help
queue-bust for MAME irregularly (it was, by far, the most popular platform).
11-20-2017, 11:38 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000054

Is the Todd Rogers in the videos above where he "witnessed" and handled the evidence for
these questionable scores by Billy Mitchell the same Todd Rogers that currently has so many
of his own scores under dispute at TG?
11-20-2017, 11:59 AM
xelnia
Quote:

Indeed it is.
11-20-2017, 09:46 PM
RTM
Quote:

RTM REPLY - it is worth noting that pre-2007, Todd was formally recognized and
empowered as a senior referee, and that allowed the privilege of verifying a live score without
the need for a second person to witness.
Post-2006 is a different matter. From what I know, succeeding TG management (Bouvier) at

some point created and implemented a new set of rules and guidelines for referees. I'm not
sure what privileges referees were granted during this administration and how they might
have varied based on their role.
Exhibit A - 000055
If, for sake of argument, the same privileges were maintained, then there was nothing
technically wrong with Todd verifying Billy's "live" performance in 2010. If his role and
privileges changed under the Bouvier administration, only someone familiar with the new
guidelines could definitively confirm whether Todd's role at that time continued to allow
single-referee validation of "live" scores.
11-22-2017, 07:34 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Indeed it is.
Thanks Jeremy.
One other thing I noticed looking at these videos is that none of the Donkey Kong gameplay
in any of Billy's available gameplay footage for any of his 1M+ games ever shows the actual
arcade cabinet during gameplay or has any sound. Were such submissions generally accepted
by TG at the time? I've heard that additional scrutiny was given to some of Steve Wiebe's
Donkey Kong submissions because of sound discrepancies that indicated the use of a Double
Donkey Kong board or an 8-way joystick. If there's not sound on Billy's videos, how can they
be subjected to the same scrutiny?
Also, if there is no video showing any environmental evidence, how can you tell from the
videos that it wasn't just played in MAME or was a video of a MAME replay?
11-22-2017, 11:21 AM
Robert.F
just thinking
it never accord to me before , but in one video Rob`s demonstrating a pcb swap (all of watch
we know now was stage) anyhow that not my point ,,, so rob puts in the DKjr pcb and billy
play`s then after the game record was set , there another video with billy giving rob **** for
being so late,,, in Robs words "he pull me out of bed" you mean to say Rob when home to bed
well Billy play ? lol how long did it take for billy to get the record maybe 3 hour`s? not
including games he fail to set the record and how many of them did he do? So Todd was there
with the Tapes in a bag for a live event? was Todd not the referee at the time and why not,,,,
all this thinking hurting my brain :)
11-22-2017, 12:04 PM
xelnia
Quote:

Thanks Jeremy.
One other thing I noticed looking at these videos is that none of the Donkey Kong gameplay
in any of Billy's available gameplay footage for any of his 1M+ games ever shows the actual
arcade cabinet during gameplay or has any sound. Were such submissions generally accepted
by TG at the time? I've heard that additional scrutiny was given to some of Steve Wiebe's
Donkey Kong submissions because of sound discrepancies that indicated the use of a Double
Donkey Kong board or an 8-way joystick. If there's not sound on Billy's videos, how can they
be subjected to the same scrutiny? Exhibit A - 000056
I would say the level of scrutiny for different players was...inconsistent. @RTM can
obviously provide better insight to what the culture and thought-process was at the time, but
here's how I see it:
-Tim Sczerby's 879k world record in August 2000 was accepted by TG, without any apparent
walk-through of his cab, just complete footage of the gameplay.
-Steve Wiebe claims, in an interview with Mark Alpiger in February 2009, that TG accepted
an 885k score from him in 2002, which would have been the arcade world record. There is no
apparent record of this game anywhere other than that interview.
-If memory serves, Wiebe's 947k game (June 2003) was DQ'd for being on Double DK and
his 1.006M game (July 2004) was DQ'd for using an 8-way joystick and the possibility that
Roy Shildt was involved. The scores between 947k and 1.006M were simply just never
verified (985k in May 2004 and 999k in June 2004). Wiebe's 1.049M game (August 2006)
was DQ'd for breaking continuity during the post-game verification process. From the looks
of it, every single score Wiebe submitted between 2003 and 2006 was ultimately either
rejected or never verified. His current TG-verified PB (1.064M) is from August 2010, four
years after the 1.049M, but I don't know anything about how that game was recorded,
submitted, or verified.
-As far as Billy Mitchell is concerned:
-1.014M ("revealed" July 2004) - Submitted in response to Wiebe's 1.006M. The

circumstances around the performance (location, exact date) are unknown. Confirmed as a
direct feed submission by @RTM although he would have to comment on whether there was
audio or any sort of known external footage that accompanied it. This submission was later
retracted when Wiebe's 1.006M was rejected.
-1.047M ("revealed" June 2005) - The "King of Kong" score. Submitted as a direct feed with
no sound and, as far as I know, no external footage of any kind. Initially accepted right away,
but later removed and reinstated. @RTM knows the history of that better than anyone, I
reckon. As with the 1.014M the circumstances around the recording are unknown, other than
Billy claiming that it happened in front of "crowds and crowds of people":
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/32378833?t=11m15s
"But the game itself was actually played in a room in front of, you know, crowds and crowds
of people. And I never actually had...I never actually had access, um, to the board."
-1.05M (July 2007) - The Florida Mortgage Brokers score. This game was supposedly done at
an 80s-themed party during the convention of the aforementioned brokers. The only known
footage of it is direct feed with no sound. I am unaware of any external footage of this game
or any footage of Billy at this event. However, I don't know if this was submitted to TG as a
video performance or verified as a live performance by a referee. Embattled former TG ref
Todd Rogers was supposedly on-hand to witness this game, as were some other unknown and
unidentified witnesses (supposedly a Gamestop manager and someone from a security firm to
verify the chain of custody of the DK PCB, I think). Whatever the circumstances, it was
accepted by TG.
-1.06M (July 2010) - The subject of this dispute. Supposedly performed at Boomer's in
Florida. The only external footage related to this game are the clearly staged videos posted by
Robert Childs. The extremely minimal gameplay footage claimed to be from this performance
Exhibit A - 000057
(and the accompanying DKJR performance) are direct feed, and only visible on monitors in
videos shot from the crowd when Billy was announcing the scores. Comments by former
referees indicate that no TG referee ever saw this gameplay footage and it was voted on and
accepted under pressure. Todd Rogers was also a supposed live witness.
Quote:

Also, if there is no video showing any environmental evidence, how can you tell from the
videos that it wasn't just played in MAME or was a video of a MAME replay?
There is something that can be measured, but it depends heavily on the quality of the video
and the potential version of MAME. Earlier versions of MAME use a 60 Hz refresh rate for
Donkey Kong, instead of the 60.606060... Hz used in new versions. While this is completely
unnoticeable moment-to-moment for a player or viewer, it creates a measurable difference
over long periods. For example, a 100,000 frame INP of DK in MAME 0.106 at 100% speed
would be 27:46.666 in length. The same 100,000 frame INP in current versions would be
27:30 in length at 100% speed. I've done some preliminary examinations of the spring boards
in Billy's available direct feed games. Since the spring board offers the longest uninterrupted
view of the bonus timer, these are the best boards to measure. The direct feed games
definitely seem to have an unusual amount of lengthening in them, but more work is required
to verify it.
11-22-2017, 02:18 PM
Max
Quote:

The direct feed games definitely seem to have an unusual amount of lengthening in them, but
more work is required to verify it.
I may have missed a previous explanation of this, but you mention that numerous recordings
contain no sound. How might not having sound relate to the validity of a submission? For
what purpose might a gamer not record with sound other than an occasional recording error?
11-22-2017, 04:25 PM
RTM
HI Xelnia:
LOTS to comment on so I'll handle it in sections as that works best for me...
Xelnia said - I would say the level of scrutiny for different players was...inconsistent. @RTM
can obviously provide better insight to what the culture and thought-process was at the time,
but here's how I see it:
-Tim Sczerby's 879k world record in August 2000 was accepted by TG, without any apparent
walk-through of his cab, just complete footage of the gameplay.
RTM REPLY - sadly I never got to see this performance as it was verified before I was part
of TG...can't confirm the specifics one way or another nor do I know who verified this one
Exhibit A - 000058
Xelnia said -Steve Wiebe claims, in an interview with Mark Alpiger in February 2009, that
TG accepted an 885k score from him in 2002, which would have been the arcade world
record. There is no apparent record of this game anywhere other than that interview.
RTM REPLY - this is very strange...my recollection of the sequence of Steve's submissions
to TG thru end of 2006 is quite clear, yet I have no recollection of verifying a score of 885K.
Maybe Walter verified that one ? If Steve said he did it I am not doubting that, I just know it
would have been verified by someone other than myself, that's all.
Xelnia said -If memory serves, Wiebe's 947k game (June 2003) was DQ'd for being on
Double DK and his 1.006M game (July 2004) was DQ'd for using an 8-way joystick and the
possibility that Roy Shildt was involved. The scores between 947k and 1.006M were simply
just never verified (985k in May 2004 and 999k in June 2004). Wiebe's 1.049M game
(August 2006) was DQ'd for breaking continuity during the post-game verification process.
From the looks of it, every single score Wiebe submitted between 2003 and 2006 was
ultimately either rejected or never verified. His current TG-verified PB (1.064M) is from
August 2010, four years after the 1.049M, but I don't know anything about how that game
was recorded, submitted, or verified.
RTM REPLY - to the best of my recollection, Steve's 985K on VHS tape arrived or was
submitted on May25-29/04. His 999,500 score arrived just a few days, a week at most, before
the 1.006M which arrived very early within the range of Jul01-04/04. The 985K was being
cross-verified at my request and unless my memory is off, that's the performance which was
no longer on DDK BUT was started with coins already inserted which, as the cross-verifier
informed me, blocked showing the splash screen which was key to seeing the copyright info
at the bottom of the screen. The 999K score was verified but by the time it was the 1.006M
score was either announced or in-hand.
Those with long memories and forum access may recall that the actual write-up on the
1.006M score was done along with an accompanying EXCEL breakdown...it was never
published once word got out that Steve had Roy Shildt-provided boardsets and that needed to
be further investigated due to Roy's longtime efforts to blow one past TG. Anyone interested
in seeing the write-ups and the EXCEL file, please drop me a PM with your E-MAIL address
and I will be happy to send out.
Xelnia said -As far as Billy Mitchell is concerned:
-1.014M ("revealed" July 2004) - Submitted in response to Wiebe's 1.006M. The

circumstances around the performance (location, exact date) are unknown. Confirmed as a
direct feed submission by @RTM although he would have to comment on whether there was
audio or any sort of known external footage that accompanied it. This submission was later
retracted when Wiebe's 1.006M was rejected.
RTM REPLY - there's a long story behind this one and I am sure I chronicled it multiple
times on the forum but here goes.
Billy was annoyed that TG was prepared to announce and validate Steve's 1M score as the
"first TG-verified 1M on DK" because Billy claimed he did it first, the difference though was
that Steve actually mailed it in for validation but Billy did not. I told Walter fair is fair and
Steve would have to be acknowledged for being first. Behind the scenes, Billy said he
contacted Steve to congratulate him on the 1M and according to Billy he told Steve that
approx a year prior he had achieved 1.014M. Nice way to burst the guy's bubble, Bill.
Around this time...post-receipt of the 1.006M tape and Aug/04, the discovery of those Shildt-
Exhibit A - 000059
supplied boards in Steve's garage was found as part of Brian Kuh's visit to Steve's home
accompanied by Perry Rodgers. New of this was later included in KoK though spun in such a
way that it made it sound like this was a TG plot to break-and-enter without permission into
Steve's home, but that's another matter.
Anyway, plans to announce the two 1M scores were put on-hold when the Kuh-discovery was
made. Now here is where my memory is shaky. Either immediately before this discovery or
after it, there was an Aug/04 event in NYC's Lincoln Center attended by Walter and Billy as
speakers, and at THAT event Billy brought out a copy of his tape to be shown in the entrance
area on a TV that was stood on it's side, and at the event itself when speaking Billy revealed
his "world's first 1M score on DK" taking full credit for being first even though he knew
damn well another performance by Steve was undergoing verification.
This was Bill's ego coming out. In 2000 on MTV he made a big announcement that he would
do something so big that it had never been done before in gaming. My personal speculation,
which I shared with him at the first Mall of America event, was that he would reclaim all five
of his previous records inclusive of a 1M on DK, 1M on DK Jr, 1M on Ms Pacman, and
reclaiming Burgertime and one other title. So here is Steve with 1M and his thunder was
stolen as he did nothing towards this big announcement since 2000. Steve already had 1M
officially on DK Jr and now he had submitted the first 1M on DK. Thunder stolen.
As for the specifics of Bill's tape...no sound and direct feed, I am 100% certain of this.
Xelnia said -1.047M ("revealed" June 2005) - The "King of Kong" score. Submitted as a
direct feed with no sound and, as far as I know, no external footage of any kind. Initially
accepted right away, but later removed and reinstated. @RTM knows the history of that
better than anyone, I reckon. As with the 1.014M the circumstances around the recording are
unknown, other than Billy claiming that it happened in front of "crowds and crowds of
people":
"But the game itself was actually played in a room in front of, you know, crowds and crowds
of people. And I never actually had...I never actually had access, um, to the board."
RTM REPLY - another long story accompanies this one and it is most distasteful. Although
this is 13 years ago I remember it very clearly. Here goes.
The annual ACAM event was about to take place and typically occurs on a Thurs-Sun. Billy
announced he was sending Greg Erway a special tape in the mail for us to watch in the cabin.
On the first night of the event, we were in my cabin watching this tape, or rather started to,
and it was NOT Donkey Kong but rather some TV show. Billy said to Greg he accidentally
sent the wrong tape. Now pay attention as this is going to be VERY telling.
Billy arranges to have a tape specially sent to Brian Kuh to pick up at the airport to be
delivered to us at Funspot on Friday to watch in the cabin. There is actual film footage of
Brian Kuh picking up the tape as per Bill's instructions. Now, ask yourself...why the HECK
would anyone be filming that ? Keep this in mind.
Evening comes and this tape is shown at what is called in KoK "Brian Kuh's Cabin"...it is
actually Sun Valley's "The Lodge", a large triple-trailer sized cabin and 30+ people are
watching. I remember this well because the guests made such a loud noise and overstayed so
late that they were NOT allowed to watch this second third of the tape on the following night.
Exhibit A - 000060
Supposedly, Steve Wiebe was not allowed to watch this because Bill had given Brian express
orders not to show the tape to Steve if he showed.
Saturday came. In my cabin (cottage 5) we watched the "second third". Steve and Mark
Alpiger happened to be in my cabin chatting along with many others when Kuh showed up
and said he could not show the rest of the tape with them present. They left, probably very
insulted (especially Steve). Walter was present as well as one of the film crews present (Ross
Tuttle, I believe and his co-film maker Josh). Other gamers were present as well. We watched
and when the "second third ended Kuh shut it off with the intent to show the rest the
following day (Saturday), however after the other gamers left, Kuh remained as did Walter
and I forget who else, and we continued to watch the rest on our own. It was at this point we
discovered Bill sent us a copy as there was a major glitch as the score rolled at 1M points.
Thus...at the cabin...we discussed that the score could not be accepted. Again, Walter was
present...keep this in mind.
Saturday came. Kuh was out of control and attempting to place a TV set on TOP of the
ACAM DK machine and have Bill's performance played WHILE Steve Wiebe was possibly
playing DK below. UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE :(
Gary Vincent shut that s**t down and Kuh was relegated to having an empty table set up in
the back of ACAM, approx 15 feet from the Nintendo row where DK was, and the
performance was shown there in the entirety. Meanwhile, right around the bend, Steve set a
DK arcade record live of 985K surrounded by the pressure of dozens of people...including
Kuh who was at time standing over him like a hawk, and unlike some gamers Steve delivered
live under immense pressure. Everyone applauded.
Unbeknownst to myself, as is caught on film by KoK, Walter was filmed sitting on a chair at
the back of ACAM talking to Bill and asking him if he wanted the score verified. This is
AFTER we determined the night before in the cabin that it could not be. In fact, Walter was
ALSO filmed entering Randy Lawton's private office, logging onto the TG website and
personally keying in Bill's new record, all in an effort to keep Bill on top. Meanwhile,
Steve...who bothered to show up live (and delivered), he gets shafted in the process and his
thunder was stolen.
AFTERMATH - Two important things happened both on Sunday after Steve got the 985K
and the following Monday after the event ended.
Sunday - Walter SAID to me that Bill's intent was that anyone who could beat the score in
question would get $10,000. Obviously with no one else ever reporting let along attaining
1M, that was a safe bet. Additionally, Bill's score of 1.047M was intentional, something I
have little respect for as a competitive gamer. He intentionally orchestrated his game so that
he rolled the score to all zeros in the level 20 elevator stage them he slow-played the game to
finish up with 1,047,200 which was exactly 100,000 points more than Steve's original TG
submission of 947,200 and then Bill killed off the rest of his lives just to show that he could.
CLearcut grandstanding, plain and simple.
Monday - I'm still chief refeee and a TG Board of Directors member at this time in 2004. I
am at work and checking the TG website during lunch and see on the front page Bill's score.
Back in the early ACAM days I would drive home early Sunday thus missing the ACAM
awards ceremony, and it was during this time (post 2:00pm) that Walter entered the score into
the TG database.
SO, I called fellow Board member Brien King and we agreed to yank down that score due to
the "glitch" at 1M. Anyone who owns the KoK DVD, listen to director comments and you
Exhibit A - 000061
will hear them talking about how I took that score down...it is not in the movie to make me
look like I was part of the conspiracy, but in the director comments they confirm my action
taken.
Months later Bill sent the original 1.014M tape for verification, BTW.
Xelnia said -1.05M (July 2007) - The Florida Mortgage Brokers score. This game was
supposedly done at an 80s-themed party during the convention of the aforementioned brokers.
The only known footage of it is direct feed with no sound. I am unaware of any external
footage of this game or any footage of Billy at this event. However, I don't know if this was
submitted to TG as a video performance or verified as a live performance by a referee.
Embattled former TG ref Todd Rogers was supposedly on-hand to witness this game, as were
some other unknown and unidentified witnesses (supposedly a Gamestop manager and
someone from a security firm to verify the chain of custody of the DK PCB, I think).
Whatever the circumstances, it was accepted by TG.
RTM REPLY - I never actually saw this one. However, it was either Todd or Billy who told
me that while the game was performed, there were two (2) cameras working at the same
time...one was direct feed. The other was poised at the second floor balcony/mezzanine level,
whatever it was called, and was filming Bill playing from an overhead perspective.
I have no idea as to whether the tape(s) contained sound or not, nor who verified the
performance other than Todd.
Xelnia said -1.06M (July 2010) - The subject of this dispute. Supposedly performed at
Boomer's in Florida. The only external footage related to this game are the clearly staged
videos posted by Robert Childs. The extremely minimal gameplay footage claimed to be from
this performance (and the accompanying DKJR performance) are direct feed, and only visible
on monitors in videos shot from the crowd when Billy was announcing the scores. Comments
by former referees indicate that no TG referee ever saw this gameplay footage and it was
voted on and accepted under pressure. Todd Rogers was also a supposed live witness.
RTM REPLY - on this point I cannot contribute at all as I have very little info or knowledge
of this event.
There is something that can be measured, but it depends heavily on the quality of the video
and the potential version of MAME. Earlier versions of MAME use a 60 Hz refresh rate for
Donkey Kong, instead of the 60.606060... Hz used in new versions. While this is completely
unnoticeable moment-to-moment for a player or viewer, it creates a measurable difference
over long periods. For example, a 100,000 frame INP of DK in MAME 0.106 at 100% speed
would be 27:46.666 in length. The same 100,000 frame INP in current versions would be
27:30 in length at 100% speed. I've done some preliminary examinations of the spring boards
in Billy's available direct feed games. Since the spring board offers the longest uninterrupted
view of the bonus timer, these are the best boards to measure. The direct feed games
definitely seem to have an unusual amount of lengthening in them, but more work is required
to verify it.
11-22-2017, 04:27 PM
Riatoju
Exhibit A - 000062
RTP REPLIE - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
11-22-2017, 04:28 PM
Riatoju
Exhibit A - 000063
Just kidding RTM, you know I love you <3
11-22-2017, 04:29 PM
RTM
One small tidbit - I am guessing that "@RTM" creates some social-media-based tag of a sort
to get that person's attention.
If so, I haven't a clue how that works as I neither own a SmartPhone nor use any text-
messaging app.
So no need to tag a post like that. Send me a PM to draw my attention to something...I'm very
"old school" when it comes to messaging.
11-22-2017, 05:21 PM
RTM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

Just kidding RTM, you know I love you <3
RTM REPLY - you are of course referring to your enjoyment of my lengthy forum replies
and shared anecdotes, otherwise...
Attachment 44618
11-22-2017, 06:56 PM
xelnia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max

I may have missed a previous explanation of this, but you mention that numerous recordings
contain no sound. How might not having sound relate to the validity of a submission? For
what purpose might a gamer not record with sound other than an occasional recording error?
For DK, not having sound can mask some tell-tale signs of MAME usage. Earlier versions of
MAME did not emulate the DK sounds very well, relying on WAV samples instead. It wasn't
until version 0.116 or thereabouts that full emulation of all sounds was implemented, and
there is a very clear difference. Sound quality aside, older versions of MAME don't (or can't)
emulate the true sound of a DK machine being switched on. On a real machine, this initial and
distinctive "squawk" sound is the result of all the game sounds being played simultaneously.
In older MAME, this sound was replaced with Donkey Kong's "growl" sound on boot up. On
a related note, when MAME boots up DK, the rug pattern is all 0s, in different colors, every
time. When a real machine boots up or is reset, the rug pattern is still multi-colored, but filled
with random graphical garbage. None of the available footage of Billy's games show any sort
of boot up or reset.
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000064

One small tidbit - I am guessing that "@RTM" creates some social-media-based tag of a sort
to get that person's attention.
If so, I haven't a clue how that works as I neither own a SmartPhone nor use any text-
messaging app.
So no need to tag a post like that. Send me a PM to draw my attention to something...I'm very
"old school" when it comes to messaging.
It's not intended for any outside social media. I believe it only functions within TG and it
creates a notification in the upper right (the Earth icon) that a person has been mentioned in a
thread.
11-22-2017, 09:07 PM
RTM
[QUOTE=xelnia;932442It's not intended for any outside social media. I believe it only
functions within TG and it creates a notification in the upper right (the Earth icon) that a
person has been mentioned in a thread.[/QUOTE]
RTM REPLY - thanks for the info !!
11-22-2017, 10:22 PM
RTM
Apologies to Xenia...my memory ain't what it used to be.
WEDNESDAY, the day before the ACAM event started, is where we started to watch that
first DK tape in my cabin
THURSDAY, the first day of the event, Kuh brought the tape to show it in the Cram cabin
FRIDAY, the second day of the event, we watched the second third in my cabin.
SATURDAY, that's the day Kuh tried to place the TV set on top of the DK machine at ACAM
and also when STeve set the 985K live while Bill's tape was playing 15 feet away on a TV set
at the back of ACAM
Sorry, got the dates wrong !! It's been awhile :)
Robert
11-25-2017, 06:21 PM
Lauren Tyler
Oh please, give me a break! I vote no!
01-29-2018, 09:54 AM
xelnia
I think it's worth noting that, as of earlier this morning, Todd Roger's Dragster dispute has
been accepted, with the consequence that all of Todd's scores will be removed from TG and
Exhibit A - 000065
he will be banned from submitting scores.
So, to recap:
-One of two supposed live witnesses/refs (Todd) has been outed as a cheater and liar. The
other supposed witness/ref was his girlfriend.
-The only live, in-person footage of this attempt shows no actual gameplay and was staged.
-Hardware experts have cast doubt that any footage available of Billy's gameplay was actually
recorded from a DK PCB.
-A former ref (PSP) has admitted that this particular score was accepted by private ballot, and
not because anyone actually viewed the performance.
01-30-2018, 01:24 AM
RTM
I haven't a formal opinion on the outcome of this dispute, however I did notice something
moments ago that I found to be most...ironic.
As the reply with quote feature can't capture a quote within a quote, here is how to navigate to
what I am referring to within this dispute thread.
08-29-2017, 07:04 PM #49

Post by "D3SCRIDE"
The quote from Patrick Scott Patterson - "To quote Pete Bouvier, the scores were entered "to
shut him up" - So yeah... Billy Mitchell's 2010 Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior scores
were entered into the Twin Galaxies database simply to placate him.. .because he'd brought
pressure to do so."
RTM REPLY - now for the ironic part, and this is VERY ironic all things considered.
Years back when I was first chief referee for TG and we were dealing with Roy Shildt and the
many anecdotes regarding his claim of 1.695M for "Missile Command" at TGTS, what Billy
informed me was that eventually, Roy showed up in-person in Iowa and approached Walter
directly regarding his score at the tail-end of TG's existence, to petition Walter to formally
recognize him as well as two others into the non-existent video game high score hall of fame.
According to Billy, the structure of TG was that it required two (2) "officers" to approve, and
Walter was just one. Billy never agreed to this, and as Billy explained, knowing full well that
TG was going the way of the wind in 1987, Walter agreed to sign Roy's petition just to
(placate him and) make him go away.
So the irony is that the very same situation that Billy described to me as having occurred back
in 1987 between Walter and Roy in Iowa, fast forward 25+ years and we have Bouvier and
Billy instead of Walter and Roy in the respective "roles" in this anecdote.
Like I said...very ironic.
01-30-2018, 06:24 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000066
So, to recap:
You do know Patrick Scott Patterson has a personal grudge against Billy Mitchell and has lied
about things in the past such as his accomplishments on Donkey Kong. There is more as well.
Like the allegation his wife entered in his scores. I really don't think he is a very credible
witness.
01-30-2018, 06:36 AM
datagod
Quote:

It is worth noting that the aforementioned referee said he did not want to speak out publicly at
that time because he was waiting on a payday from Pete Bouviere and he did not want to risk
that. In other words, he kept quiet about corruption and collusion in hopes of financial reward.
Can you trust anything this guy says?
01-30-2018, 09:37 AM
xelnia
Quote:

You do know Patrick Scott Patterson has a personal grudge against Billy Mitchell and has lied
about things in the past such as his accomplishments on Donkey Kong. There is more as well.
Like the allegation his wife entered in his scores. I really don't think he is a very credible
witness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by datagod

It is worth noting that the aforementioned referee said he did not want to speak out publicly at
that time because he was waiting on a payday from Pete Bouviere and he did not want to risk
that. In other words, he kept quiet about corruption and collusion in hopes of financial reward.
Can you trust anything this guy says?
I guess that would put him on par with Todd in terms of credibility at this point. So, we have a
situation where virtually no one involved in the achievement and verification of this score can
Exhibit A - 000067
be trusted. PSP's account has the potential to be corroborated by any of the other refs who
voted in the secret ballot. And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more
thorough account (at least if he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).
01-30-2018, 05:49 PM
Robert.F
Pete Bouvier gone
will never know about Pete

Bouvier roll he passed away on
September 12, 2017
http://gamesrelated.com/?
p=3284
02-01-2018, 06:06 AM
The Evener
Quote:

So, to recap:
It's crystal clear that the "footage" confirming live venue game play is an utter farce. DK
Junior boards are apparently used to play DK. The camera developed a pathological fear of
the game screen and any chance of gleaning the displayed (rolled) high score.The dialogue
feels forced and awkward. Cranking out two new high scores back-to-back on games that we
know are incredibly unforgiving is awesome sauce.
And yes, we have a ref in the room who alleged that it was a forced vote driven by the
player's schedule to announce his high scores. There were other refs in the room -- won't any
other ref step forward to support or deny PSP's recollection?
Exhibit A - 000068
02-01-2018, 08:15 AM
gstrain
I'm having a hard time keeping track of the arguments against this score here. Does anybody
have a PowerPoint or can make a video that summarizes things?
02-01-2018, 09:00 AM
homerwannabee
Apparently new evidence is emerging that Billy Mitchell's game was done on MAME based
on the directfeed screen at the IVGHOF. In fact ALL of Billy Mitchell's games show evidence
of being played on MAME.
02-01-2018, 10:40 AM
Marcade
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerwannabee

Interesting. If this is true George, you or someone else please post this evidence here on this
dispute thread. Otherwise, it is circumstantial evidence. So far, all I can see is evidence of
Jeremy's videos of a PCB board swap.
Not all of us here are members on the Donkey Kong Forum.
Thanks... :)
02-01-2018, 12:52 PM
datagod
Quote:

Please be more specific George. If the evidence is apparent, post it here. Otherwise it is
hearsay / conjecture / noise.
02-01-2018, 04:03 PM
zallard1
Quote:

Please be more specific George. If the evidence is apparent, post it here. Otherwise it is
hearsay / conjecture / noise.
Be patient ;)
Exhibit A - 000069
02-01-2018, 04:38 PM
homerwannabee
What many people don't realize, including me before today is that the older versions of
MAME built Donkey Kong boards differently than the Arcade version. With the Arcade
version right before the board is fully built you'll get part half of a board. With the old MAME
version you would have just the springs show up at first, and then all of the board shows up.
Here is a video of Billy Mitchell's 1,050,200 score. Go right before any board transition and
put the speed at 0.25. Then press play and pause a few times. Most likely you won't see the
transition the first or maybe even second time around, but if you play with it enough the "half
board" will show up. What you'll see is springs with no board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&t=2217s
Now go to any part of Robbie Lakeman's 1,230,100 score. Go right before any board
transition and do the same thing. If you catch the "half board" you'll see more than just
springs. You'll see springs and segments of the board mixed in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJzMCIZzgQ&t=2638s
Arcade builds boards differently than MAME boards. Billy Mitchell's "half boards" look like
old MAME "half boards."
Now, newer MAME doesn't do this. This is only something from "Old MAME"
02-01-2018, 04:49 PM
homerwannabee
Now, to make one thing clear. I did not come up with this information. Some much more
knowledgable about the Donkey Kong code was the one who presented the information.
02-01-2018, 04:51 PM
homerwannabee
Also, I meant ladders with no board. Sorry about that.
02-01-2018, 04:58 PM
WCopeland
George Riley:
Please do not jump the gun on this investigation. Evidence is currently being gathered and
you have put out misrepresentations of facts. A comprehensive post is going to be made about
this matter soon enough in this thread.
02-01-2018, 05:06 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Now, to make one thing clear. I did not come up with this information. Some much more
knowledgable about the Donkey Kong code was the one who presented the information.
Who is the source? I think it deserves mentioning? Someone will eventually demand knowing
so I'm asking, haha. This off course will lead into the agenda arguments when you bring forth
Exhibit A - 000070
the source so be ready.
02-01-2018, 05:12 PM
WCopeland
Quote:

Who is the source? I think it deserves mentioning? Someone will eventually demand knowing
so I'm asking, haha. This off course will lead into the agenda arguments when you bring forth
the source so be ready.
A comprehensive post is forthcoming. George Riley jumped the gun on an investigation that
the Donkey Kong community has been doing, and in the process misrepresented a few facts.
I would like to ask the TG adjudication community to please be patient. A lot of evidence has
been gathered, and we are trying to put it together in a clear and concise way that is easy to
understand. A comprehensive post will be made on this matter soon.
02-01-2018, 05:18 PM
homerwannabee
Yeah, I screwed up. I misinterpreted a major portion of the presentation. Sorry about that.
02-02-2018, 07:35 AM
RTM
Quote:

"...and the altogether low skill level on display -- it looks like someone playing at 1.1+ pace
who doesn't know how to play at 1.1+ pace and at one point late in the game there's a death
that is inconceivable by 1.1+ standards, meaning an action is taken that would never ever be
taken by a legitimate 1.1 player."
RTM REPLY - I'm neither defending nor challenging Bill's scores, but this statement is a bit
unfair.
Don Hayes and I are the world's two best "Super Cobra" players and yet each of us on many
an occasion experiences a game death that is quite "basic" in nature. We screwed up...period.
Should have not allowed such deaths to happen. But they do.
Bottom line is that even the best players can experience a bit of a brain fart in gaming or make
a beginner-level mistake. It happens, though not very often. Still, it can happen.
02-02-2018, 09:23 AM
xelnia
This will be a two-post since there is a limit on the number of images allowed in one post.
Below, you'll find a large collection of animated GIFs. PLEASE take the time to read this
ENTIRE post before jumping to them, and please continue read what is posted AFTER them.
In summary, these GIFs show that each of the Donkey Kong world record direct feed
recordings presented by Billy Mitchell and verified by TG were generated in MAME
Exhibit A - 000071
and not by original Donkey Kong hardware. These scores are: 1,047,200 (the King of
Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score). In
order to demonstrate this, it's necessary to understand how DK images are generated by
MAME versus an original PCB.
Video emulation has changed across MAME versions, but there are basically 4 eras: 0.115
and prior, 0.116 - 0.121, 0.122 - 0.126, 0.127 and newer. Each of these groups or eras show
different methods of video emulation as a result of MAMEdev making various improvements.
As it currently stands, video emulation is not perfect, but it's closer than it used to be.
The important bit: prior to version 0.127, MAME generated video in essentially a "snapshot"
fashion. The Z80 would run for 1 frame, then the video emulation takes the "snapshot" of that
point time and displays the image. Then the Z80 runs for 1 frame, the next snapshot is taken,
displayed on the monitor, etc. etc. Real DK hardware, on the other hand, generates video in a
"rolling shutter" fashion: the video generator scans left-to-right/bottom-to-top, while the Z80
builds the screen in memory from the opposite direction right-to-left, top-to-bottom. Both
video generation and the Z80 are running concurrently with no "snapshots". The result is that
it becomes fairly easy to determine WHAT generated the image based on HOW the image has
been generated.
A simple analogy would be this:
-Real DK hardware generates the image in the same way you would open or close vertical
window blinds...from side to side.
-Older versions of MAME (pre-0.122) generate the image in the same way you would put
together a puzzle...piece by piece.
Since Billy has claimed that his footage is all direct feed, it's also CRUCIAL that we take a
look at an extremely well-documented process of creating a direct feed setup for DK. Chris
Gleed went through the entire painful process, documenting each step in his journey. You can
read about it in the links below. He discusses his hardware choices and provides photo
updates throughout. It is very likely that he has the only true DK direct feed setup in existence
and his scores have been accepted at DKF and TG. Footage of his direct feed gameplay is
included in the GIF collection for comparison...if we are looking at direct feed footage, THIS
IS WHAT WE SHOULD SEE.
Idea: video/audio capture from edge connector

Donkey Kong Direct Feed How-To
For further comparison, I've included footage from my own DK cabinet. This was recorded
using a Samsung 8 phone filming at 60 fps. This gives us a high-framerate comparison of true
DK hardware that is NOT direct feed. It also captures the idiosyncracies in filming a monitor
with a camera (brief ghost images or double frames). Since existing footage of Billy's 1.047M
and 1.062M are cameras-pointing-at-monitor-playback, those sources will exhibit some of the
same effects. Note that this is VERY different from the concepts discussed earlier regarding
how video is generated...these are artifacts caused by the external re-recording of the original
sources, not artifacts present in the sources themselves.
Another MAME behavior that is worth pointing out is rotation. Although we see DK in the
correct orientation when we play on a real cab, the video is actually generated on its side, with
the top of the screen being on the right-hand side. MAME also emulates this incorrectly. If
you've read through Chris Gleed's threads, you can see posted photos of correctly rotated DK
video. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M games show the incorrect rotation. The 1.062M recording,
however, appears to be the correct orientation. Since MAME versions haven't changed the
Exhibit A - 000072
rotation, it's likely this discrepancy was noticed at some point and corrected for future
recordings (simple as using the -ror command).
A final note before the GIFs: all of this can be independently confirmed by anyone. I am not
in sole possession of any critical, secret piece of information here. Knowledgeable hardware
experts like Sock Master, who played a crucial role in dissecting all of this, can verify the
hardware aspects. Any person can inspect any and all versions of MAME, the provided video
sources, and their own hardware if they have it.
So, with all that being said, let's get to the GIFs. These are small segments from each source,
showing the transition from the break screen into the next. Each GIF is showing every frame
in the transition; there is no cherry picking here. Each frame in the GIF lasts approximately
750 ms to make it easier to see. As for framerates, the MAME sources, Chris Gleed's direct
feed, and my cab are recorded at ~60 fps. Each Billy source is ~30 fps. I apologize in advance
for the formatting/placement. :D
They have been grouped by screen type (barrel, pie, spring, rivet) and show a variety of
sources:
MAME 0.115 (relevant for versions 115 and below)

MAME 0.117 (relevant for versions 117 - 121)
Billy 1.047M
Billy 1.05M
Billy 1.062M (pie transition only...this is the only transition footage available for this
game)
Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed
Test footage from my personal cab, recorded at 60 fps with a Samsung 8 phone
BARREL TRANSITIONS
MAME 0.115 and below MAME 0.116 to 0.121 MAME 0.122 to 0.126 MAME 0.127 to
present
https://i.imgur.com/ygRJmPy.gif https://i.imgur.com/L2EyYP7.gif
https://i.imgur.com/t9OLFrO.gif https://i.imgur.com/d5IhtrX.gif
Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gif
Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif

https://i.imgur.com/h8uzEIn.gif
Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone

https://i.imgur.com/0cYAQjt.gif
PIE TRANSITIONS
present
Exhibit A - 000073
https://i.imgur.com/nD2130A.gif https://i.imgur.com/l3NfEDi.gif
https://i.imgur.com/fbbAtun.gif https://i.imgur.com/7TskeiL.gif
Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/b4mHlsN.gif
Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/eVLzU3o.gif
Billy 1.062M
https://i.imgur.com/jgEy8NJ.gif

https://i.imgur.com/3jHIZJn.gif

https://i.imgur.com/6BA9Q83.gif
02-02-2018, 09:24 AM
xelnia
SPRING TRANSITIONS
present
https://i.imgur.com/beSYXPX.gif https://i.imgur.com/WKPHmUD.gif
https://i.imgur.com/9ygYcfn.gif https://i.imgur.com/66zcnQs.gif
Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/s5W3xkj.gif
Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/oH8IXcm.gif

https://i.imgur.com/Mx23mSD.gif

https://i.imgur.com/F35BTGH.gif
RIVET TRANSITIONS
present
https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif
https://i.imgur.com/FFBdNWv.gif https://i.imgur.com/L8C8HJ0.gif
Billy 1.047M
https://i.imgur.com/0ACVyTR.gif
Exhibit A - 000074
Billy 1.05M
https://i.imgur.com/W5HiUgi.gif

https://i.imgur.com/GtUMNEo.gif

https://i.imgur.com/ZOAHnMk.gif
Beyond the evidence above, it's worth pointing out some other questions and issues:
1) While clearly MAME, there is no way to tell exactly how these games were performed. It's
possible they were recorded in one shot. Given the play style in Billy's videos, it's more likely
that vanilla MAME's INP recording feature was abused, in which a person can re-record an
INP as many times as they wish to craft their desired performance.
2) While many people have seen Billy play in public, there are no known independent,
impartial, objective witnesses to any of the The Big 3 WR games. He has never scored over
1,000,000 in a live venue. Billy claimed the 1.047M was done in front of scores of people, but
that he had no access to the inside of the machine...so how did he set up the direct feed? The
1.05 was supposedly done at an actual convention, but Billy was conveniently playing in
another room. The 1.062 was done in arcade in Florida, but the only live footage from that
day was staged (the Boomer board swap) and shows no evidence of a direct feed setup.
Todd Rogers, of Dragster infamy, was a supposed witness to the 1.05M and 1.062M games.
3) It's unclear if ANYONE ever reviewed the 1.062M recording. According to Patrick Scott
Patterson, the TG refs present at the IVGHOF event in Ottumwa in 2010 simply voted on
whether to accept the score, without reviewing any footage. While PSP's credibility in
anything DK-related is questionable, his version of those events is still worth noting.
4) For Billy, who has taken special care to point out how little he knows about DK hardware,
it would have been essentially impossible to create a direct feed setup in the years he was
submitting tapes. So, who would have done it for him and why has that person never been a
part of any verification discussions? Creating a dual-display version for the Mortage
Convention (sending quality video to another room, not just a VCR) would have required
even more technical know-how.
(The remainder of this post is DKF-specific, but provided here for thoroughness)
So...PLEASE KEEP READING
In light of the evidence presented here, I am removing Billy Mitchell's current score of
1,062,800 from the Donkey Kong Forum High Score List.
This score will be replaced with his live score of 933,900, performed at the Midwest Gaming
Classic on May 7, 2004. This score was performed in public and was witnessed by at least
one TG member as well as Dwayne Richard.
As DKF's (currently) sole high score moderator, I've taken my responsibilities very seriously.
I've always tried to apply what I felt were the community standards to every performance.
When Corey Chambers was first crafting the original version of the HSL rules, an important
section of the "Auxiliary Rules" was that a score may be accepted without following the main
rules as long as it was convincingly supported in multiple other ways. This idea was tested
Exhibit A - 000075
early on with MAME games by Robbie Lakeman and Christian Van Meter...performances that
were accepted with no INPs. In my view, this door swings both ways. Scores already on the
board are ALWAYS subject to review, and if the preponderance of evidence is against it than
the score should be removed, even if no single bit of evidence is a "smoking gun." In my
view, we have reached that point with Billy Mitchell.
The idea to challenge Billy's scores has been floating around for quite some time now. I
lodged a formal dispute on TG months ago. A poll on DKF showed an almost even split
(10-13) on whether Billy's scores should be removed from our HSL. Top players and former
TG officials, some quietly and others not so quietly, have been questioning his gameplay and
the circumstances behind his recordings for over a decade. I don't know Billy personally.
We've never met and the only time we've been in the same place was KO3. I'm well aware of
his importance in gaming history and culture and especially to the arcade and DKF
community. I understand this will not be a popular decision. It is not my wish to fracture a
community or affect anyone's personal life. But ultimately, I have to do what I think is right.
Short of live, time-stamped, complete footage (including full views of cab hardware) of the
games in question, I will not be reinstating any of Billy's scores in question. Should the
community as a whole wish for reinstatement, then I will step down as DKF high score
moderator. It's worth noting that there are still other forum mods (and an admin) that can
update the scoreboard if they so choose.
If this community (and others like it) are built on the idea of friendship through competition,
camaraderie through our shared pains in pushing ourselves, our friends, and these games to
their limits, then we must strive for honesty and legitimacy. A house built on lies is not worth
living in.
02-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Dave Hawksett
Thank you for your efforts in putting together this body of evidence for discussion by Twin
Galaxies members.
02-02-2018, 12:08 PM
Dave Hawksett
To clarify, time will be needed for Twin Galaxies to fully-review this evidence. We will do
this thoroughly and impartially. In the meantime we will continue to observe this discussion
by experts in our community.
02-02-2018, 01:10 PM
FBX
Quote:
-Steve Wiebe claims, in an interview with Mark Alpiger in February 2009, that TG accepted
an 885k score from him in 2002, which would have been the arcade world record. There is no
apparent record of this game anywhere other than that interview.
It did exist, and I actually owned the tape for a short while and watched it myself. My
memory is a bit hazy as this was 15 years ago, but I remember getting the tape in a box of
various tapes to pull video clips from and make online video snips from as per Walter's
request. I remember watching the 885k and being very impressed, and IExhibit
specifically read the
A - 000076
name on the tape and was surprised to not see Billy's name on it, but instead Steve Wiebe's! I
asked Walter about it, and he seem both concerned and shocked that such a tape fell into my
hands. I got the sense that it was 'mis-filed' and purely by accident. I was asked to send it back
(I forget whether to him or another referee). What happened to the tape after that I honestly
don't know.
I'm willing to swear in court that it existed and I had the tape in my possession (for a time
anyway). In fact, I've often told this story that I was technically the first referee to verify a
Steve Wiebe DK tape, albeit accidentally. So rest assured, Steve is telling the truth about that.
02-02-2018, 01:16 PM
DadsGlasses
Great job @xelnia Very well presented evidence.
02-02-2018, 01:25 PM
zallard1
Incredible evidence package.
Many people who have no in-depth game knowledge of Donkey Kong are seeing clearly how
damning this evidence is. Well done Sock Master, @xelnia & the DK community.
02-02-2018, 01:26 PM
RTM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBX

It did exist, and I actually owned the tape for a short while and watched it myself. My
memory is a bit hazy as this was 15 years ago, but I remember getting the tape in a box of
various tapes to pull video clips from and make online video snips from as per Walter's
request. I remember watching the 885k and being very impressed, and I specifically read the
name on the tape and was surprised to not see Billy's name on it, but instead Steve Wiebe's! I
asked Walter about it, and he seem both concerned and shocked that such a tape fell into my
hands. I got the sense that it was 'mis-filed' and purely by accident. I was asked to send it back
(I forget whether to him or another referee). What happened to the tape after that I honestly
don't know.
I'm willing to swear in court that it existed and I had the tape in my possession (for a time
anyway). In fact, I've often told this story that I was technically the first referee to verify a
Steve Wiebe DK tape, albeit accidentally. So rest assured, Steve is telling the truth about that.
RTM REPLY - I don't doubt your word, but I never knew of this tape as being submitted to
TG...could have been submitted to a referee other than myself.
I received/watched the initial 947K, then 985K, 999.5K and finally 1.006M from Steve, and
then much later his 1.049M featured at the tail-end of KoK. Plus I saw his live 985K at
ACAM.
Steve's VERY first contact to TG occurred before he sent in the 947K. I remember him
contacting me thru E-MAIL announcing a new WR but he was using 6-man settings, so he
Exhibit A - 000077
told me he would try again, and obviously he did as I eventually received the 947K (Double
DK board or not)
02-02-2018, 01:56 PM
thegamer1185
Probably ended up with all those tapes of Todd's that went missing. This mystery is to big for
me. Better get the Hardly Boys.
OK, no more jokes. Lets be honest here. It is very disheartening that TG and other sites are
being put up to the task of now proving older scores did in fact exist. That just shows you
how far these websites, technology, and gaming has come. Proving/disproving old scores is a
very huge deal. We are seeing that there was a lot of BS and collusion surrounding many of
these so called "legends" of gaming. It's never an easy position to be in disproving something
that people could view as legendary or whatever term you want to use.
This all leads to one thing though. Justice for all gamers. It's impossible to chase a score that
never existed/isn't possible. You want to achieve something so badly but when you find out it
wasn't even a thing, it can lead to anger/disappointment. It's for the better though. These
scores on TG/DKF/all gaming websites need to be cleaned up and removed. If that damages a
"legends" reputation, they never were legendary to begin with. They were
frauds/shady/cheats.
Hats off to all of you guys putting together these evidence packages. Good for DKF and TG
for actually allowing these things to be disputed and actually doing something about it. Sure,
you may take a hit in the short run, but look at the aftermath of the Todd Rogers dispute.
EVERYONE who doesn't know him personally is celebrating. Keep it up.
02-02-2018, 02:09 PM
Robert.F
i Want to know have you done this
What i Want to know..... have you done this tested with mame from a computer svga to a TV
with stander 720 x 480 for NTSC signals composite input like using this converter Svga to
composite and tested the farm rates thory you are proposing
......https://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-to-RGBS...kAAOSwa~BYT~Du
02-02-2018, 02:13 PM
Robert.F
or even
Or even tested gone from Svga to
Component Input on a VCR

recording,,, play back to a play
TV 3:4 720 x 480 NTSC signals
02-02-2018, 02:14 PM
FBX Exhibit A - 000078
Quote:

RTM REPLY - I don't doubt your word, but I never knew of this tape as being submitted to
TG...could have been submitted to a referee other than myself.
I received/watched the initial 947K, then 985K, 999.5K and finally 1.006M from Steve, and
then much later his 1.049M featured at the tail-end of KoK. Plus I saw his live 985K at
ACAM.
Steve's VERY first contact to TG occurred before he sent in the 947K. I remember him
contacting me thru E-MAIL announcing a new WR but he was using 6-man settings, so he
told me he would try again, and obviously he did as I eventually received the 947K (Double
DK board or not)
The 885k was before all those 900k + submissions. I'm 90% certain the tape came from
Walter, because I remember it being in a box of various tapes Walter wanted me to make
online video clips from. I asked my brother if he remembered when I had that tape, and not
only did he remember it, he was able to recall the score of 885k without me telling him.
I do recall later when Steve broke 900k shortly after that, it was a situation where the 885k
tape become a moot point and probably that's why it never got entered in. Walter just never
got around to it, and then there was all the CSI treatment Steve was getting for daring to break
one of the Old Guard's records. I remember they were wanting instant disqualification over
the use of a 'double-board' or whatever it was called, and I thought Steve was being treated a
bit harshly. It was in stark contrast to questioning Todd's records, where no effort was made to
investigate the claims, and I had to be the 'bad guy' for proving 32.04 on Barnstorming was
flat-out impossible.
02-02-2018, 02:16 PM
Robert.F
the finel nale
if this going to be the finel nale in Billy coffin it better be proven with out a dough, and no
Jace your input not needed
02-02-2018, 02:29 PM
Robert.F
How a TV Works in Slow

Motion scan lines and how they
are drewin on crts and lcd s
i want you to analyse a mame game to a converter to a TV .............................. and report back
here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM
02-02-2018, 02:29 PM
Exhibit A - 000079
datagod
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more thorough account (at least if
he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).
As far as I can tell, the last time PSP posted on TG was to brag about finally getting a
killscreen, after going dark for a few weeks during a heavily promoted (facebook, local TV
station) quest to do so. At the time, he was also posting L=22 as proof, which turned out to be
a pixel-for-pixel match of the same image on Hank Chien's DK Killscreen submission table
from a week earlier.
I think the Donkey Kong community is doing an excellent job of looking after the DK cores.
You will note that PSP's beloved killscreen has never been accepted or displayed on the
Donkey Kong High Score List. In other words, PSP cannot be trusted when it comes to
anything related to Donkey Kong or high scores in general. And his professional jealousy of
Billy Mitchell only magnifies that.
Attachment 49504
Attachment 49501
02-02-2018, 02:34 PM
Ninglendo
Is there any video evidence that exists of Billy's DK Jr. score or is Sroka's video the only one?
Thanks.
02-02-2018, 02:38 PM
Robert.F
Darwin theory seam right at the time , but know one understood at the time that These
changes can be caused by environmental factors such as ultravioletradiation from the
sun, or can occur if an error is made as DNA copies itself during cell division. Acquired
mutations in somatic cells (cells other than sperm and egg cells) cannot be passed to the
next generation
02-02-2018, 02:50 PM
timmell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninglendo

Is there any video evidence that exists of Billy's DK Jr. score or is Sroka's video the only one?
Thanks.
Todd had them in his Hotel room the night before. Maybe Nelson got them that weekend.
Exhibit A - 000080
02-02-2018, 02:52 PM
timmell
Quote:

Todd had them in his Hotel room the night before. Maybe Nelson got them that weekend.
The VHS tapes that is.
02-02-2018, 02:59 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

The VHS tapes that is.
Part of the infamous Ron Corcoran collection I bet. @Robert F, are you trying to confirm the
evidence in the MAME images? Or are you saying there is another possible way Billy
Mitchell may have recorded the game? Sorry I'm not understanding what your asking.
To that point, is the evidence saying Billy played using a MAME emulator and simply played
a recording back through a DK cabinet? I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading all of these
correctly.
02-02-2018, 03:24 PM
Robert.F
put up or shut up
Put up or shut up i agree John ,, Tommrow i will e presenting my Thearys on svgs to TV

frame rate`s and how Billy is being play by TG of all places :)
02-02-2018, 04:24 PM
CaptainJivePants
Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.
02-02-2018, 04:30 PM
Robert.F
fancy pants
Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.thats all you got to say ?
02-02-2018, 04:41 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Easy accept. Good work Jry and Sock.thats all you got to say ?
I'm confused. Robert, are you upset that this score is being disputed? I can understand if you
do happen to have evidence it existed, but from what your saying it's possible he played this
using MAME and displayed it to something. Or are you saying that you can actually use a DK
Exhibit A - 000081
board and display it to a regular monitor and that is why the picture frames appear the way
they do? Right now your asking questions and being very vague as to what your intentions
are? I'm not saying you have an "agenda"(I hate this word now because of that Dragster
dispute), I'm asking if you disagree with the dispute and have evidence to verify your stance
is all. I'm all for this score staying if that is the case. We have just seen this scenario in the
Dragster dispute where people are backing Todd because they are and it becomes an agenda
show with no evidence.
Again, I'm just asking and don't mean to imply anything towards you one way or the other.
Thanks.
02-02-2018, 04:56 PM
Robert.F
up set never
no im not upset just surprised this kinda evadeind did come sooner :) the card are stacking up
against Billy
02-02-2018, 04:58 PM
Robert.F
DIDNT come sooner... sorry i cant edit what i say for the
Grammar ***** :)
02-02-2018, 05:15 PM
Ripper
If there are some old scores that were filmed by Billy when he was breaking 1 million on DK
then it would sure help his cause. I don't mean a small portion of a video but the whole game.
Getting 1,014,000 with 100% video proof would almost be close enough to this score you are
debating to say he may have indeed achieved the score. Recording your game sure helps out a
lot.
02-02-2018, 05:31 PM
andrewg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper

lot.
No! He is good at games, he can achieve the score. Literally if all it took to defend his legacy
was a 1 million point game he could probably do it this month... especially given the
evolution of dk high scores. 1m is easy now.
There's this fallacy that people think since people are capable or close to a world record, it
means we should believe their claims.
Exhibit A - 000082
Close, but no cigar. I wouldn't be surprised if Billy did get 1m, but the point is moot if it's
proven he fabricated scores
02-02-2018, 05:34 PM
andrewg
BTW, I just got a 4:55 in Super Mario Bros. Here's my close PB TO PROVE IT
02-02-2018, 05:41 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewg

BTW, I just got a 4:55 in Super Mario Bros. Here's my close PB TO PROVE IT
Congrats man! Submit that fabricated photo and you got my vote! Haha, I see what you did
there you silly goose. I agree, saying it's close enough isn't good enough. If he did do it, I
would be happy to take his close enough score though. Full video evidence pending. I hope
Billy comes out and says something about this. Not in a negative way but the way I thought
Todd should have done it. "OK ****ers! You want some Donkey Kong. It's on like ****ing
Donkey Kong". Have fun with it and play the game. That would be the best way to handle it.
Accept the challenge. Only problem is that replicating a PB is well, very hard since it's your
PB, AKA the best you've ever done.
Which brings up that there may need to be some rule stating that 90-95% of your highest
score on a second performance might be enough to prove you actually did it. Really, what if
I,you, anybody had a score disputed and you put up a 98% of your record? If it was me, the
only argument I could have was the one I just gave. It's the highest I've ever gotten, did you
really think I could do it again? 98% is still ****ing awesome. I might need to start a new
wall post about this.
Seriously, if Billy came in and got 1,045,000 pts, could we really say it's not possible he didn't
actually get the score we are disputing. Yeah, this needs a wall post.
02-02-2018, 06:01 PM
serphintizer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgy0dphOGc
02-02-2018, 06:08 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

lot.
i don’t accept this at all. He could get 1.3 million with one hand tied behind his back blind
folded playing only by sense of smell in another game and it wouldn’t justify any wrong
doing in this game
Exhibit A - 000083
02-02-2018, 06:11 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Congrats man! Submit that fabricated photo and you got my vote! Haha, I see what you did
there you silly goose. I agree, saying it's close enough isn't good enough. If he did do it, I
would be happy to take his close enough score though. Full video evidence pending. I hope
Billy comes out and says something about this. Not in a negative way but the way I thought
Todd should have done it. "OK ****ers! You want some Donkey Kong. It's on like ****ing
Donkey Kong". Have fun with it and play the game. That would be the best way to handle it.
Accept the challenge. Only problem is that replicating a PB is well, very hard since it's your
PB, AKA the best you've ever done.
Seriously, if Billy came in and got 1,045,000 pts, could we really say it's not possible he didn't
actually get the score we are disputing. Yeah, this needs a wall post.
But if the hard evidence does in fact show that a MAME Score was knowingly aubmitted as
an arcade score, then the actual score doesn’t matter. It would be cheating with pure intent to
deceive.
02-02-2018, 06:13 PM
andrewg
Simply put, if you can't prove the initial claim it doesn't matter what you do after the fact.
Putting up a close score means you can prove a close score. Todd got 5.61, that's close. I
guess that means his 5.51 is real after all.
02-02-2018, 06:16 PM
andrewg
And again, even if he got 1.2m now it still means nothing. Time changes things. Scores
evolve with time, skill evolves with time. You can't use skill as a defense. You can be the best
in the world at a game and not have the world record. There is a difference between setting a
world record and having the ability to. Many have the ability to break the dk record, but not
many have.
02-02-2018, 06:29 PM
BenMullen
repeatbility
i don't really think there is a lot to add to the blockbuster post from this morning that was
written by some true experts in the game. That post DID reference that all the findings were
fairly easy to reproduce so I guess it should be asked that official TG people do exactly that to
confirm what they have uncovered.
Exhibit A - 000084
Looking beyond this score there might be others to look at as well but I think the subtext here
is that a LOT of collusion at the highest levels of TG had to exist to make this possible.
Sad.
02-02-2018, 06:48 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMullen

i don't really think there is a lot to add to the blockbuster post from this morning that was
written by some true experts in the game. That post DID reference that all the findings were
fairly easy to reproduce so I guess it should be asked that official TG people do exactly that to
confirm what they have uncovered.
Looking beyond this score there might be others to look at as well but I think the subtext here
is that a LOT of collusion at the highest levels of TG had to exist to make this possible.
Sad.
I sincerely hope as more of these scores come to light that we get an official acknowledgment
others were in on it and they’re dealt with as well
02-02-2018, 06:49 PM
RTM
Quote:

The 885k was before all those 900k + submissions. I'm 90% certain the tape came from
Walter, because I remember it being in a box of various tapes Walter wanted me to make
online video clips from. I asked my brother if he remembered when I had that tape, and not
only did he remember it, he was able to recall the score of 885k without me telling him.
I do recall later when Steve broke 900k shortly after that, it was a situation where the 885k
tape become a moot point and probably that's why it never got entered in. Walter just never
got around to it, and then there was all the CSI treatment Steve was getting for daring to break
one of the Old Guard's records. I remember they were wanting instant disqualification over
the use of a 'double-board' or whatever it was called, and I thought Steve was being treated a
bit harshly. It was in stark contrast to questioning Todd's records, where no effort was made to
investigate the claims, and I had to be the 'bad guy' for proving 32.04 on Barnstorming was
flat-out impossible.
RTM REPLY - Thanks for the reply...this is great info as it fills in a gap in my own
recollection that until now I did not even know existed !!
As for the DDK disqualification. The exact sequence of events would take some
reconstruction, but it wasn't until awhile after the 947K was recognized that TG was told of
the DDK boardset. Truth be told, Daren Harris had discovered a blurb about this on some
other gaming forum, something like "RGVAC" or the like, one I am not familiar with.
Anyway, in response to Steve's DDK Jr performance I believe, and again I am a little shaky
Exhibit A - 000085
on the sequence here as it has been awhile, a person identifying himself as the designer of the
boardset posted that he disputed Steve's score as he used a non-traditional boardset. This
knowledge was not passed along to TG until about a year later when Steve submitted his DK
score...I believe he submitted DK JR first and then later DK. Again, it has been quite awhile.
Usually I am quite sharp on sequences but this one in its entirety had a LOT of caveats along
the way.
I can understand how an 885K performance could be lost from observation/recognition...the

same can be said of Steve's 999.5K which was never formally announced as by the time it
was watched a 1.006M performance was announced that it was being sent...and both of these
trumped his 985K on tape that was never accepted because of clear indication that DDK was
used...again if I remember correctly. And that was a 985K other than the live that he did at
ACAM in May/June of 2005.
As for Steve's "treatment". When the 985K came in that one was shipped by me to Chris Ayra
for an expert opinion...which he did provide and which lead to Steve having to re-game using
a traditional boardset...which Steve did, in my opinion. But the s__t hit the fan when those
Shildt-originating boardsets were found in his home which raised the spectre of comments
made years back by Roy that he would try to blow one past TG. It just smelled
wrong...collectively...so formal acceptance was postponed.
In retrospect, had those Shildt-mailed boardsets NOT been found/seen by Brian Kuh, things
would have been a lot different.
However, what truly irked me both personally and professionally was when...before Kuh saw
the boardsets...TG was preparing to acknowledge Wiebe as the 1st ever 1M score on DK.
Billy was fuming and claiming that he already had done it first though never sent in the tape
to TG and also that he informed Steve that he had done when he called Wiebe to congratulate
him on the 1M...Billy told Steve he had done so a year earlier.
Rules were rules and Steve's tape was in-hand, so Billy and his massive ego lead to him
showcasing his 1.014M at a NYC Lincoln Center-based event...which I attended along with
Walter and a few others including NYC gamer Zack Hample...where Billy showed his taped
performance and proclaimed before the crowd that "they said 1M could never be done..."
followed be "here's the tape". What an ego :(
I had a nice 30+ page article written comparing what would have been the announcement of
simultaneous 1M scores that never was published on the TG forum. If anyone is interested in
reading it as well as the accompanying EXCEL files which detail the progress of each game,
drop me a PM with your E-MAIL address and I'll be happy to send. I already shared these
with Robbie Lakeman, BTW, and he enjoyed reading it.
The rest could take up 50,000 characters in this post, but so much has been said before I'll
leave this at that.
02-02-2018, 06:52 PM
RTM
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000086
RTM REPLY - might be that I am not reading what you said the right way, but TG
previously had an "85% Rule" in the early days which was junked in the 2001-2005 range at
some point and replaced with the "100% Rule". I believe that I made mention of this in a
recent forum reply in the dispute forum within the previous 60 days or so.
02-02-2018, 09:45 PM
Almighty Dreadlock
MAMEr of the Century
02-02-2018, 09:50 PM
DadsGlasses
1,247,700
Amazing to see true competitors pushing the limits of the game. Their legacy and hard work
deserve credit. They also deserve to not be surrounded by fake scores.
02-03-2018, 05:05 AM
FBX
@ RTM,
You definitely know more about the timeline than I could remember! One name you brought
up was Daren Harris, and I remember him having the loudest voice that Steve 'didn't
accomplish anything' because it was on a double board. We then had a big debate about what
advantage that gave Steve (if any at all), and that didn't matter to Daren. He was in that
mindset of 'original hardware or it didn't happen', which I can understand to some degree, but
I felt he was going overboard with it in order to avoid awarding Steve any credit whatsoever.
That wasn't my first run-in with Daren either. He also talked trash on modern gamers and the
idea of video taping gameplay. To him, referee in person or go home. I remember getting into
'heated' debates with him and his lack of respect for anything modern game related.
02-03-2018, 05:35 AM
Ripper
Quote:

i don’t accept this at all. He could get 1.3 million with one hand tied behind his back blind
folded playing only by sense of smell in another game and it wouldn’t justify any wrong
doing in this game
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying Billy didn't fabricate his score or anything. It was
around the time of KOK and may have been meant to help promote the documentary but I
agree, it's NEVER right to fabricate any kind of gaming score at all. Trust me, I was firm as a
referee and never verified any of Todd or Billy's scores. What I was really getting at is Billy
never really released full game play footage of a big score game. It was always talked about
Exhibit A - 000087
like a video tape is out there or someone saw it or it was verified at a live event, etc...
Everybody else around 2007 had to have real proof but scores were accepted at live events if
a TG referee were around to verify it? It was never me as I never verified any live event
score. Me personally... I wanted 100% proof as well with a high quality video to back it up
and NO breaks in the video whatsoever. I totally get where you guys are coming from here.
02-03-2018, 05:54 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying Billy didn't fabricate his score or anything. It was
around the time of KOK and may have been meant to help promote the documentary but I
agree, it's NEVER right to fabricate any kind of gaming score at all. Trust me, I was firm as a
referee and never verified any of Todd or Billy's scores. What I was really getting at is Billy
never really released full game play footage of a big score game. It was always talked about
like a video tape is out there or someone saw it or it was verified at a live event, etc...
Everybody else around 2007 had to have real proof but scores were accepted at live events if
a TG referee were around to verify it? It was never me as I never verified any live event
score. Me personally... I wanted 100% proof as well with a high quality video to back it up
and NO breaks in the video whatsoever. I totally get where you guys are coming from here.
ah, sorry for inferring incorrectly. Often times the implication when talking about percentages
is that regaming a certain percent somehow makes it ok. If however the implication is that he
cant even get that percentage, well then, thats different. Thank you for the clarification.
02-03-2018, 03:47 PM
Robert.F
what hell
This Copy / Past stuff driving me crazy , i dont care where you from you opinions from just
speek out ,, this like a freekin game of point counter point ,,
So when dose Billy get the Bad New`s ?
02-03-2018, 04:17 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

This Copy / Past stuff driving me crazy , i dont care where you from you opinions from just
speek out ,, this like a freekin game of point counter point ,,
So when dose Billy get the Bad New`s ?
I've heard via long facebook post that he is aware. This is from one his many friends who are
not happy about this dispute. Either way, I have been told he is aware.
02-03-2018, 04:55 PM
RTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIe...ature=youtu.be
Exhibit A - 000088
02-03-2018, 05:05 PM
Riatoju
How do we even know the video being dissected is Billys? I'm just curious as I may have
missed that part of the discussion.
02-03-2018, 05:57 PM
xelnia
Quote:

How do we even know the video being dissected is Billys? I'm just curious as I may have
missed that part of the discussion.
Compare the 1.047M footage with any footage from King of Kong. Here's some bonus
footage.
Compare the 1.05M footage with footage post by Settle It On The Screen (formerly TG
Podcast?), here.
And Billy is standing in front of playback of his 1.062M. Unless you're saying that's NOT his
gameplay?
02-03-2018, 06:28 PM
Riatoju
Heh interesting. That's a trip.
02-03-2018, 06:46 PM
RTM
The 1.047M footage was originally sent to be shown at the ACAM 2005 event. A big
production was made as to how this tape arrived...I think it was part of a "plan" to contribute
to the hype.
Originally A tape was shipped express mail to Greg Erway who brought it to the event and
when we started to watch in my cabin it was clear that the wrong tape was sent. So, according
to what I recollect, Bill then sent via overnight express mail a tape to arrive at an airport for
Brian Kuh to pick up. Makes you wonder why a camera person was there to capture that on
tape...all staged in my opinion to add to the hype.
That tape we started to watch and it was clear it was a washed copy, not the original,
especially when we reached the 1M roll-over point which was quite controversial.
As history records, Walter...at the 2005 event...asks Billy if he wants to submit the score
EVEN THOUGH we had earlier determined, including Walter, that the tape was not
acceptable due to the quality. On camera they are captured in cell conversation with Billy
indicating yes, and on camera (without my knowledge has by that point I was driving back to
NY), Walter entered the score into the TG database.
Upon my return I saw the score on the TG front page since the last 50 scores entered was a
front page feature back then. I called up Brien King and we agreed to take the score down
which I did, replacing it with Bill's former score whatever it was at the time.
Exhibit A - 000089
Then, 8 or 9 months later, the original VHS tape was submitted and watched.
At no point did any of us watching the tape realize it was a MAME submission masquerading
as an arcade performance. Considering the steps taken by Bill to get this tape to the ACAM
event, and the hooplah generated by having it playing while Steve was there playing live, this
is in retrospect a slap in the face at all gamers in attendance, especially to Steve, and to all of
Bill's colleagues who he specifically entrusted to be part of this process of watching his tape
and promoting his "bounty" at the event of offering $10,000 to anyone who can beat his score.
Further, he claims in KoK that he did NOT know Wiebe was in attendance which is a crock
and then some.
Unknown to most gamers is the fact that Brian Kuh at one point was trying to put a television
set ON TOP OF the very same DK machine that Wiebe would be playing at, so as to play the
1M performance by Bill while Wiebe was trying to play live. That attempt, even though it
was rightfully blocked by ACAM management, shows an absolutely egregious amount of
poor sportsmanship on behalf of Bill.
Also known to most gamers is the fact that the way this transpired, it cost TG the resignation
of senior referee Mike Stulir who resigned in absolute disgust that Walter would allow for this
to happen. And I never blamed Mike one bit for doing so.
Poor sportsmanship aside, to find out in the here and now that the very performance involved
could be potentially faked is an affront to me as both a gamer and as a former staffer, and if it
is determined beyond all doubt that this was a MAME performance as well as the current
1.06M that is being reviewed, I would call for not just an outright removal of all of Bill's
scores but ALSO would contact whoever issued Bill that "Player of the Century"
certificate and have that yanked as well...in the same fashion and spirit that some
University recently rescinded the "honorary degree" bestowed upon Bill Cosby.
It has been said by Bill himself repeatedly that he always "has a plan"...sadly we might find
out soon enough that these "plans" were calculatingly devious in nature for many, many years.
And, if it is determined that the performance was faked, it should make you wonder, as he
was the financial lifeline for TG for as many years...was TG upper management aware of this
going on and if so was a blind eye turned ? If so that would stink to the high heavens.
02-03-2018, 06:56 PM
lexmark
Good post, Robert!
john
02-03-2018, 07:17 PM
zallard1
Quote:

gameplay?
Exhibit A - 000090
Hahahaha, it's really funny to me how something so blatantly obvious has to be said. Of
course this is Billy's footage. Who could possibly be dense enough to assume otherwise in
this instance?
02-03-2018, 07:23 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

this instance?
do you want the list, or is that rhetorical?
02-03-2018, 07:23 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

this instance?
Opossum! My mom always said when something is so blatantly obvious, but someone is to
dense enough to assume otherwise, you hunt Opossum. Wasn't Joe Cartoon back in the day
awesome?!
02-03-2018, 07:30 PM
zallard1
Quote:

do you want the list, or is that rhetorical?
I am saddened that this is a serious question, but at this point I believe it.
List away, if you want.
02-03-2018, 07:39 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

I'm not gonna do that, I will however fill in the reasons for statements like the above that may
seem a little confusing. A lot of us are either facebook friends, or friends of friends with
everyone else on site. Theres a lot of talk about this on facebook by people who wont post
Exhibit A - 000091
here, and so some cryptic responses that seem odd to you only seeing the context here are
actually included because of the ridiculous counter arguments made off site.
02-03-2018, 07:39 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Just go on facebook and look at Hectors wall posts. That one article pretty much gives you all
the answers. I keep telling them to come here to back Billy's play but they don't. Now I've
resorted to telling them it's a damn shame I didn't record my 5.51 second **** for the record
books. Doesn't mean it didn't happen if you guys believe I did it. Yeah, after so long I finally
start giving people ****. I did in that same post tell them if they really do give a **** about
this score to come here and look at the evidence and defend Billy. Still waiting. Oh yeah,
ALL OF US at TG are a bunch everything derogatory under the suns for what happened to
Todd and what is happening to Billy. It's pretty awesome stuff.
02-03-2018, 07:49 PM
Marcade
If your interested, there is a potential Donkey Kong score removal, if you want to watch.
02-03-2018, 07:54 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

this instance?
There are people outside this dispute who have no clue what is going on. I too don't know all
the details, so it is pretty rude to call people dense when many of us aren't as invested in this
as you and others are. It also doesn't help that everyone in these disputes are all one sided. I
haven't taken any sides on this, even so we are going after a score that isn't even second place,
however it's likely Billy will get the Todd treatment but he'll be fine, he's a villain and is
known for cheating as a villain, this will only make him stronger. In any case hopefully this
dispute doesn't drag on like Dragster and gets resolved as quickly as possible. If TG chooses
to milk this too, this place is seriously messed up.
02-03-2018, 07:56 PM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 49564
Nope. Not dragging on at all.

Exhibit A - 000092
02-03-2018, 07:57 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

If your interested, there is a potential Donkey Kong score removal, if you want to watch.
You mean a career kill screen?
02-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Attachment 49564
Nope. Not dragging on at all.
There was no meat on this bone until now. This was pretty much a dead dispute. Now it spits
hot fire.
02-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

as you and others are. It also doesn't help that everyone in these disputes are all one sided. I
haven't taken any sides on this, even so we are going after a score that isn't even second place,
however it's likely Billy will get the Todd treatment but he'll be fine, he's a villain and is
known for cheating as a villain, this will only make him stronger. In any case hopefully this
dispute doesn't drag on like Dragster and gets resolved as quickly as possible. If TG chooses
to milk this too, this place is seriously messed up.
I agree it shouldnt be milked, however, thats not to say fair time shouldnt be put in. TG
should took the time to verify it really is billy's video as well as review the explanation. I dont
think its so unreasonable this is till open.
As for "one side", should people purposely take a side they dont believe just to balance things
out? Should we always walk around in life only be half sure half unsure of everytihng? When
asked how you feel always say "I dont know i'm right in the middle"? The "other side" has
every opportunity to speak up. If only one side exists, then what does that tell you? Xelnia put
forth a great evidence package and now this is again reducing to just an emotional thread.
02-03-2018, 08:05 PM
timmell
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000093

footage.
Podcast?), here.
gameplay?
Here is the 1.062 video of me showing (on my desktop) the original video file slowing it
down going frame by frame.
You will see the date I off loaded my camera on Aug. 10th, 2010 three days after the event.
https://youtu.be/pDHSoe74TDc
02-03-2018, 08:06 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

I agree it shouldnt be milked, however, thats not to say fair time shouldnt be put in. TG
should took the time to verify it really is billy's video as well as review the explanation. I dont
think its so unreasonable this is till open.
As for "one side", should people purposely take a side they dont believe just to balance things
out? Should we always walk around in life only be half sure half unsure of everytihng? When
asked how you feel always say "I dont know i'm right in the middle"? The "other side" has
every opportunity to speak up. If only one side exists, then what does that tell you? Xelnia put
forth a great evidence package and now this is again reducing to just an emotional thread.
The evidence package Xelnia put together is incredible work, it's likely going to put this
dispute to rest unless someone can come up with something to discredit it. Unless Billy
submits different tapes I don't think it can be discredited unless Dwayne Richards went
through the work of fabricating tapes using multiple save states to mimic known
performances of Billy's but I doubt he would go through the trouble. From my understanding
the tapes came from Dwayne right?
02-03-2018, 08:10 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Wait so is this footage from the event showing possible proof this was from an emulator?
02-03-2018, 08:13 PM
timmell Exhibit A - 000094
Roy tried to use a dispute system back then.
"When you have enough money you can create whatever you want." - Roy Shildt
https://youtu.be/VkeAnCmusf0
02-03-2018, 08:15 PM
timmell
Quote:

Wait so is this footage from the event showing possible proof this was from an emulator?
Yes watch it, read the in this thread.
02-03-2018, 08:20 PM
zallard1
Quote:

I'm not gonna do that, I will however fill in the reasons for statements like the above that may
seem a little confusing. A lot of us are either facebook friends, or friends of friends with
everyone else on site. Theres a lot of talk about this on facebook by people who wont post
here, and so some cryptic responses that seem odd to you only seeing the context here are
actually included because of the ridiculous counter arguments made off site.
Quote:

Just go on facebook and look at Hectors wall posts. That one article pretty much gives you all
the answers. I keep telling them to come here to back Billy's play but they don't. Now I've
resorted to telling them it's a damn shame I didn't record my 5.51 second **** for the record
books. Doesn't mean it didn't happen if you guys believe I did it. Yeah, after so long I finally
start giving people ****. I did in that same post tell them if they really do give a **** about
this score to come here and look at the evidence and defend Billy. Still waiting. Oh yeah,
ALL OF US at TG are a bunch everything derogatory under the suns for what happened to
Todd and what is happening to Billy. It's pretty awesome stuff.
Ah, understandable. I do not have a facebook account, nor do I ever plan on having one, so all
of that content/context is unreachable for me unfortunately.
Seems a bit odd that there's apparently a lot of talk on facebook backing Billy, but none of it
is here, in the place where any statements they make could have actual weight on the outcome
of the dispute. If they are that invested in Billy's standing in the community and have actual
sound evidence or reasoning as to why the evidence package doesn't hold verifiable water, it
only hurts their cause for nothing from them to be posted here for public discourse.
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000095
as you and others are.
This has nothing to do with any of the details in xelnia's post, or understanding them in any
capacity. I do not blame anyone for not understanding every part of the analysis posted earlier,
as there are a lot of parts to it that have to be considered carefully. What I'm talking about is
the fact that there is an eleven and a half minute video where Billy's new DK & DKJR world
records are being announced. The two runs on display are VHS direct feed recordings of both
games. In what reasonable scenario could those two televisions displaying those two games
not be Billy's gameplay from those records?
02-03-2018, 08:21 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Roy tried to use a dispute system back then.
"When you have enough money you can create whatever you want." - Roy Shildt
https://youtu.be/VkeAnCmusf0
honestly, this is why we have to care. Yeah, I dont play donkey kong, i really dont like the
game. But I see guys like Roy who knew they were getting bamboozled, they spoke up, and
nothing was done. Now THAT is one sided. These guys had a one side control for years, and
now the other side is finally speaking up. Dont get me wrong, at some point I think the people
who were cheated should've moved on with their lives, but at the same time it shouldnt have
come to that.
02-03-2018, 08:23 PM
zallard1
Quote:

I was actually just about to post that you can use the frame advance feature on the youtube
video to do the same thing (press , and . to go back/forward 1 frame), but I'm glad you
showed it on the original raw video as well.
02-03-2018, 08:23 PM
timmell
Quote:

In what reasonable scenario could those two televisions displaying those two games not be
Billy's gameplay from those records?
Exhibit A - 000096
There are many witness that those were the tapes that Billy presented at IVGHOF. Paul
Zimmerman allowed Billy to use his VHS players (used for his own attempts that weekend)
to play back the tapes. He could have assisted with playback.
02-03-2018, 09:01 PM
Riatoju
Asking for a friend but is there any evidence of emulation while Billy is performing live? I
mean so far we have tapes that strongly suggest being his and we have footage of playback of
those tapes showing proof, but do we have the actual live performance? If not all Billy has to
do is deny that was his game play and that ends this dispute. We have no proof that any of that
was his actual live performances. He could deny Srokas video was his or admit it wasn't his
therefore lying but that wouldn't have any effect on this dispute because showing playback is
out of the bounds of the rules that apply to live performances. I have no reason to believe the
tapes are fabricated but we don't know that for sure. Dwayne Richard's isn't a credible source
from what I've heard, he has some sort of grudge if I recall.
02-03-2018, 09:06 PM
RTM
Quote:

But I see guys like Roy who knew they were getting bamboozled, they spoke up, and nothing
was done. Now THAT is one sided.
RTM REPLY - I wouldn't put too much faith in believing that Roy was "bamboozled". There
is sufficient anecdotal evidence accumulated over the years to suggest that he did not achieve
his claim of 1.695M on TGTS, but Walter in his non-stop kumbaya efforts to avoid bad
kharma was why he chose to ignore all of that in the end.
And he most definitely did not achieve a 59M score on marathon settings based on Roy's very
own testimony during the AllGamesRadio interview of Feb-Mar/07 when he clearly indicated
that he played under "Atari Rules", a fact that he never mentioned not even once since the
1980's or in the hundreds of calls and discussions with TG officials since then, which was not
allowed under TG policy thus immediately DQ'ing that score.
The fact that Walter Day chose to retain these two scores in the TG database in light of al the
evidence gathered and presented/proven to him over the years was one of the three reasons
why I resigned from TG in December of 2006.
02-03-2018, 09:10 PM
timmell
Tell your friend, to get a TG account then. And post here. If Billy denies that those are his
tapes ,then there are many witness that were there, that he and Steve presented those videos as
his two latest new world records on DK and DK jr.
02-03-2018, 09:10 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000097

I wanna make sure I understand your concern. If i understand you correctly, that would mean
things would have to happen like this:
Dwayne would fake tapes in such a way that billy, who was there, was also tricked and
believed they were his.
Dwayne would do this on the hopes someone would take a video that could resurfaces years
to be analyzed by others when jace hall eventually institutes a dispute system that was
unthinkable back then.
Dwayne makes plenty of anti-billy videos, but plays the long game on this one, never
bringing it up, just sitting back hoping someone somewhere will eventually find the trap he
lied.
I mean, some people do go to extreme lengths with this stuff, but there are limits.
02-03-2018, 09:14 PM
Riatoju
Nevermind. Forget what I said. Someone settled that question for both of us. There is new
evidence that digs the hole deeper. I don't have permission at this time to post it but things
aren't looking good for Billy.
02-03-2018, 09:15 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

And he most definitely did not achieve a 59M score on marathon settings based on Roy's very
own testimony during the AllGamesRadio interview of Feb-Mar/07 when he clearly indicated
that he played under "Atari Rules", a fact that he never mentioned not even once since the
1980's or in the hundreds of calls and discussions with TG officials since then, which was not
allowed under TG policy thus immediately DQ'ing that score.
The fact that Walter Day chose to retain these two scores in the TG database in light of al the
evidence gathered and presented/proven to him over the years was one of the three reasons
why I resigned from TG in December of 2006.
Exhibit A - 000098
i'm confused, are we talking about missile command or donkey kong? Cause it looks to me
like roy was upset a suspicious donkey kong score tried to be passed off as legit. While its
clear roy wasnt actually tricked, this video does seem to show billy's attempt to bamboozle
him despite it failing. You cant dismiss roy's complaints back then and at the same time
validate this dispute now. Roy spoke up and got ignored. Poor guy. I'm glad your other
comments back up his suspicions. Now lets have some sympathy for the people who were
victims of these shenanigans
02-03-2018, 09:26 PM
datagod
Quote:

Should anecdotal evidence really be considered in such a serious dispute as this? Also, it is
not helpful to claim to know Walter's (or anyone's) inner knowledge of why they made a
decision. Unless you have a signed affidavit from the person, it is just hearsay.
02-03-2018, 09:40 PM
timmell
Quote:

also tell your friend, that at the 6:10 mark of that announcement video, billy refers to his
video tapes, “ the two of these are gonna play here”
as he rests his hands on the TVs playing the tapes.
https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY
02-03-2018, 10:01 PM
zallard1
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000099
To add to this, at 2:40 or so into the video, Billy says "I managed to set a new world record
that I guess you're going to see finalized right here"
02-03-2018, 10:07 PM
RTM
Quote:

Should anecdotal evidence really be considered in such a serious dispute as this? Also, it is
not helpful to claim to know Walter's (or anyone's) inner knowledge of why they made a
decision. Unless you have a signed affidavit from the person, it is just hearsay.
RTM REPLY - in the case of the 1985 "Ironman Competition", and with respect to the
behind-the-scenes events leading up to the "perfect pacman" at ACAM, only anecdotal
evidence exists. The very nature of what happened in both cases precluded hard evidence
from being possible aside from two known exceptions regarding debunking Roy's claim
(airfare tickets debunking his claim that both Chris Ayra and Darren Harris both saw him play
at the event, and the TG "Bible" of Rules plus the copy of the rulebook used for the 1984
"Guinness" Masters Event which further proved TG (or anyone for that matter) was not taking
into consideration a certain dip switch).
02-03-2018, 10:11 PM
thegamer1185
OK, so the evidence that has surfaced regarding the MAME images, can some help explain to
me how they work again using this new video? The monitors in the video are set on their
sides to display the images properly I'm assuming. Help a simple guy like myself, and others,
in determining why the set up is the way it is. I understand the imaging is rendered per frame,
but can you use this video and package those MAME images so they are in the same post for
easier viewing. Please and thanks.
02-03-2018, 10:14 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

RTM REPLY - in the case of the 1985 "Ironman Competition", and with respect to the
behind-the-scenes events leading up to the "perfect pacman" at ACAM, only anecdotal
evidence exists. The very nature of what happened in both cases precluded hard evidence
from being possible aside from two known exceptions regarding debunking Roy's claim
(airfare tickets debunking his claim that both Chris Ayra and Darren Harris both saw him play
at the event, and the TG "Bible" of Rules plus the copy of the rulebook used for the 1984
"Guinness" Masters Event which further proved TG (or anyone for that matter) was not taking
into consideration a certain dip switch).
Are you talking about this DK score Robert, or another score entirely? If this is in regards to
the Roy guy and one of his scores, open a dispute on it I guess. Otherwise, where is this
heading? I'm sure a lot of people have no idea what you keep referring to.
Exhibit A - 000100
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ … 100/1012
02-03-2018, 11:53 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

OK, so the evidence that has surfaced regarding the MAME images, can some help explain to
me how they work again using this new video? The monitors in the video are set on their
sides to display the images properly I'm assuming. Help a simple guy like myself, and others,
in determining why the set up is the way it is. I understand the imaging is rendered per frame,
but can you use this video and package those MAME images so they are in the same post for
easier viewing. Please and thanks.
From what I been told a direct feed when converted displays the image sideways, there is no
way around it, unless this was recorded using MAME and flipped back. Hope that helps.
02-04-2018, 12:24 AM
expandedidea
2 Attachment(s)
Some clarification...
For those having issues with the GIFs, this might be a bit easier to see. I have attached the
frame by frame diagram of the board transitions from DKF. Just to clarify, the easiest way to
see the differences from mame/billy videos and arcade is that the ladders are drawn all at once
on early versions of mame and the billy videos, no matter where you skip to in the game. On
arcade, the ladders appear to us to be drawn progressively from right to left, to simplify. You
can see this on the Chris Gleed's direct feed video screenshots.
While not on here, some have argued that the way a VHS tape displays an image could cause
the intermediate frames where the ladders are drawn to be obscured... this is simply not the
case. I also attached a screenshot from Tim Sczerby's arcade world record killscreen from
2000 (https://youtu.be/1P6edH95LCc), which is a VHS tape captured using a camcorder.
Even here, it is obvious that the ladders are drawn on the right first. This NEVER happens on
Billy's gameplay. I have jumped all around these tapes looking for an anomaly and it isn't
there. This is as cut and dry as it seems.Attachment 49575Attachment 49574
02-04-2018, 01:41 AM
Jace Hall
Quote:
Originally Posted by expandedidea

For those having issues with the GIFs, this might be a bit easier to see. I have attached the
frame by frame diagram of the board transitions from DKF. Just to clarify, the easiest way to
see the differences from mame/billy videos and arcade is that the ladders are drawn all at once
on early versions of mame and the billy videos, no matter where you skip to in the game. On
arcade, the ladders appear to us to be drawn progressively from right to left, to simplify. You
can see this on the Chris Gleed's direct feed video screenshots.
If you are so inclined, I think it could be helpful to the investigation if you also included in
your overall comparison picture some frame shots from the gameplay in this video where
Billy is present:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=7y15Y6xrpXY
Exhibit A - 000101
02-04-2018, 05:38 AM
Ripper
After a lot of thought and talking to people who were at this event and swear Billy actually
achieved these scores I find it more and more difficult to think this was faked. Maybe
someone else edited some video or something in the past to make it look that way but do you
really believe at a live event, with so many people in attendance, that this was actually faked
and everybody is in on it and staying hush hush? It's not even close to being a impossible
score and it's 200K off the current world record on Donkey Kong.
Yes, I totally admit that I've wondered about this score for years myself and I've been on the
fence about it but people have told me point blank, they were there and witnessed it! No
matter how this turns out I'm still voting NO!
I'm beginning to see things as a witch hunt on the older generation gamer's. I mean, who's
next and when will it stop? I also understand that some guys back in the day did indeed lie
through their teeth for the sake of a little fame. However, to me there has to be without a
doubt 100% proof before throwing someone under the bus. Especially someone like Billy
who helps promote classic gaming by traveling around with Walter multiple times a year. It's
not a crazy high score, there are witnesses saying he achieved this score and Billy does indeed
have skills on Donkey Kong.
02-04-2018, 05:57 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Billy is present:
Sounds to me you don't believe the tapes with Billy's full performance could actually be his.
The analysis of them should be more than enough proof right? Unless you feel these tapes
don't matter enough to make a call.
02-04-2018, 05:59 AM
DadsGlasses
Have you noticed that the people that “swear Billy actually achieved these scores” didn’t
actually see Billy actually achieve these scores? What they are swearing to is that they
“believe” Billy got these scores. Keep in mind that many of these same people swore that they
just knew that Todd got a 5.51. Some even swore that they had proof that Todd got a 5.54.
The details of the story change a little, but the theme remains the same. People do not like to
discover that something they believed in is actually false. There is reason for this rooted in
our evolutionary psychology. It goes hand in hand with the fundamentals of “belief”.
The evidence appears to be stacking up. The comparison of screen building. The spread sheet
comparison of run rates and pace. The blue barrel quantities. The anecdotal evidence. The
first hand accounts of other 1.1m+ players. Etc.
Conversely, and understandably, the emotional defense of a “belief” begins to stack

Exhibit A - up.
000102
People don’t like to have their beliefs challenged. It’s a normal human emotional response.
At the end end of the day, this is a score tracking website. If the evidence shows that the score
submission is not what it was said to be, then the score should be removed and appropriate
action should be taken regarding cheating. That should not be an emotional decision based on
friendships, legacies, marketing, community building, etc.
Quote:

fence about it but people have told me point blank, they were there and witnessed it! No
matter how this turns out I'm still voting NO!
I'm beginning to see things as a witch hunt on the older generation gamer's. I mean, who's
next and when will it stop? I also understand that some guys back in the day did indeed lie
through their teeth for the sake of a little fame. However, to me there has to be without a
doubt 100% proof before throwing someone under the bus. Especially someone like Billy
who helps promote classic gaming by traveling around with Walter multiple times a year. It's
not a crazy high score, there are witnesses saying he achieved this score and Billy does indeed
have skills on Donkey Kong.
02-04-2018, 06:06 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Now I don't know what to believe. Notice in this video the monitors are sideways, a direct
feed from authentic boards would cause this to happen, not to mention these particular
Nintendo boards only work with Nintendo monitors which means the technician would have
had to make a converter for this so it could be recorded to a VHS, where with MAME they
could directly feed it to a VCR from a video capture device used on a PC. Not to mention,
MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors sideways
unnecessary.
02-04-2018, 06:08 AM
Barthax
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000103

Not to mention, MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors
sideways unnecessary.
Very minor technical note: MAME has had the ability to rotate the screen before display since
very early versions.
02-04-2018, 06:09 AM
Robert.F
Quote:

From what I been told a direct feed when converted displays the image sideways, there is no
way around it, unless this was recorded using MAME and flipped back. Hope that helps.
Yeah that`s true hector simple direct feed will allays be vertically frames on the screen,, and
All of the videos iv seen of billy's game play the tv`s are on there sides except for this video i
cant tell if the TV on it side https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk... at any rate if you where playing
mame you can choose how to display the orientation and if recording an inp... ones the inp
recorded you can only play back at the orientation it was recorded in ,,, anyone planing to
fake a live direct feed would be well aware of this im sure :)
02-04-2018, 06:15 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Yeah that`s true hector simple direct feed will allays be vertically frames on the screen,, and
All of the videos iv seen of billy's game play the tv`s are on there sides except for this video i
cant tell if the TV on it side https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk... at any rate if you where playing
mame you can choose how to display the orientation and if recording an inp... ones the inp
recorded you can only play back at the orientation it was recorded in ,,, anyone planing to
fake a live direct feed would be well aware of this im sure :)
That video is of a tv on its side for sure.
02-04-2018, 06:22 AM
timmell
Quote:

feed from authentic boards would cause this to happen, not to mention these particular
Nintendo boards only work with Nintendo monitors which means the technician would have
had to make a converter for this so it could be recorded to a VHS, where with MAME they
could directly feed it to a VCR from a video capture device used on a PC. Not to mention,
MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors sideways
unnecessary.
Yes, but you can tell MAME to orient the output in any direction, 90, 180, 270,0.
Exhibit A - 000104
As terms of the converters, someone else will have to chime in. But the claim in this dispute
seems to be at this point that the drawing of boards on the output on Billy's video are more
like the drawing of graphics is similar to the earlier versions of MAME. And not similar to
other footage of filmed arcade machines with PCBs in tact. I don't think the interlaced signal
60i of a VHS recorder would change the image so much it would like MAME.
02-04-2018, 06:26 AM
WCopeland
1 Attachment(s)
I would like to present a chart I've held onto for about a year now:
Attachment 49589
This is a representation of how many blue smashes were awarded for each of these top games
that we have footage of, and the percentage of actual score was earned from blue smashes.
Blue smashes are completely RNG-based and depend totally on cooperation from the game.
Mitchell's blue smash count is extraordinarily over the mean, and is indicative that he did not
know how to play at the desired pace target, therefore used MAME's rewind feature to
utilize blue smash RNG as a crutch to get there.
Before Jeremy and John did their research, this was purely circumstantial. However, paired
with their evidence, it is very compelling.
02-04-2018, 06:29 AM
timmell
Quote:

I would like to present a chart I've held onto for about a year now:
Attachment 49589
This is a representation of how many blue smashes were awarded for each of these top games
that we have footage of, and the percentage of actual score was earned from blue smashes.
Blue smashes are completely RNG-based and depend totally on cooperation from the game.
Mitchell's blue smash count is extraordinarily over the mean, and is indicative that he did not
know how to play at the desired pace target, therefore used MAME's rewind feature to
utilize blue smash RNG as a crutch to get there.
Before Jeremy and John did their research, this was purely circumstantial. However, paired
with their evidence, it is very compelling.
Is there a chart like this for the score that officially disputed here of 1.062
02-04-2018, 06:31 AM
Riatoju
I'm confused, why does an emulator draw the screen differently from the actual hardware, I
thought emulators had to accurately mimic the hardware for a game to properly work. Any
difference could throw off how the game operates. I can't see any reasonExhibit
why theAauthors of
- 000105
MAME would have the drawing emulation operate differently from the actual hardware it
makes zero sense.
02-04-2018, 06:32 AM
WCopeland
Quote:

Is there a chart like this for the score that officially disputed here of 1.062
No full tape of the 1.062m has ever been released, so we could only use Billy's next-highest
score that actually does have a leaked tape.
02-04-2018, 06:37 AM
andrewg
Just gonna say this again:
Just because someone is good at a game doesn't mean they won't cheat.
Reasons someone who is good would cheat: Spotlight, fame, money, lack of time, laziness,
lack of motivation to get a good score, and the fact that most won't question it or your ability
to achieve it.
Hardcore fans: "He doesn't need to cheat because he is Billy Mitchell."

I don't deny Billy is good at games, but anyone can cheat. Just because he can achieve a score
doesn't mean he wouldn't cheat to do so.
We found our first witch, why would we stop there?
02-04-2018, 06:41 AM
Barthax
Quote:

difference could throw off how the game operates. I can't see any reason why the authors of
makes zero sense.
Most emulation is inexact. MAME devs are still finding nuances in old games that are still not
accurately emulated. There used to be a difference in Pac-Man (may still be there) where the
length of time a ghost takes to go through a tunnel was different in MAME, for example.
02-04-2018, 06:44 AM
WCopeland
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000106
makes zero sense.
Hector, with all due respect, I'm not convinced you've actually read all of Jeremy's extensive
post with his evidence. It goes in great detail to explain this question, and others which you
have asked. Please thoroughly read the post, as things like this only muddy the waters in
something that should otherwise be a slam dunk.
02-04-2018, 06:46 AM
timmell
Quote:

makes zero sense.
Go back and read the original post, it explains it better than I can. Maybe the authors of
MAME did that so it at least it would be playable/emulate on a PC, etc. It might have been a
work around. I bet someone will chime in shortly why. If MAME and Arcade were the same
thing we wouldn't be having this dispute.
02-04-2018, 06:51 AM
RTM
Wes, not sure if this will help, but I already have the count of smashes done for the 1.014M
earlier performance from 2005, in case checking out the earlier progress would hold some
meaning.
Drop me a PM with your E-MAIL and I can forward you the EXCEL files. I also happen to
have the same analysis done for Steve's 1.006M game.
02-04-2018, 06:58 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Go back and read the original post, it explains it better than I can. Maybe the authors of
MAME did that so it at least it would be playable/emulate on a PC, etc. It might have been a
work around. I bet someone will chime in shortly why. If MAME and Arcade were the same
thing we wouldn't be having this dispute.
Okay I had to go back to reread it, it didn't make sense at the time but now I get it.
02-04-2018, 07:32 AM
maxim_recoil
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000107

feed from authentic boards would cause this to happen
Recording from MAME would cause that to happen too, as long as you rotated the game in
the MAME settings. For example, this is MAME being displayed on my PC monitor:
Attachment 49591
Quote:
not to mention these particular Nintendo boards only work with Nintendo monitors which
means the technician would have had to make a converter for this so it could be recorded to a
VHS,
Nintendo arcade boards work with any standard ~15 Khz RGB arcade monitor. However,
Nintendo arcade boards output inverted colors, so if you connect one directly to a monitor
that is not a Nintendo/Sanyo monitor, the displayed colors will be inverted (Nintendo/Sanyo
monitors invert the colors by design, so when you invert inverted colors they are back to
normal). Nintendo/Sanyo monitors include a color inverter board (most of them do, anyway).
It is not used with Nintendo boards, but it is used if you want to connect a non-Nintendo
board to a Nintendo/Sanyo monitor. You could also use it if recording gameplay from a
Nintendo board (no need to build one). Even if you didn't have a color inverter board, you
could capture your gameplay digitally, then use video editing software to invert the colors
back to normal in the recording, then record the color-corrected digital video to a VHS tape.
You could also go from tape to digital, color-correct, and then back to tape, but that would
result in an extra generation of loss.
Quote:
where with MAME they could directly feed it to a VCR from a video capture device used on
a PC.
You don't use a video capture device for that. A capture device is for transferring analog video
to your PC, not the other way around. You would need a video card which has NTSC output
(e.g., composite video).
Quote:
Not to mention, MAME properly orients the screen which would make putting the monitors
sideways unnecessary.
Yes, MAME does that by default, but like I and others have mentioned, it's a simple setting to
rotate it 90 degrees. Or you can globally disable MAME's default function of auto-rotating
vertical games to display upright on horizontal monitors, in which case all of the vertical
games will display in their raw state like the arcade boards do.
02-04-2018, 07:33 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000108
footage.
Podcast?), here.
gameplay?
I just want to get on the record where each of these videos came from? Who did they come
from and how were they leaked. I apologize if this was answered already but knowing where
each video came from is pretty important.
02-04-2018, 07:58 AM
WCopeland
Quote:

I just want to get on the record where each of these videos came from? Who did they come
from and how were they leaked. I apologize if this was answered already but knowing where
each video came from is pretty important.
Hector, if I didn't know better I'd say you were intentionally trying to muddy the waters in this
dispute thread.
Tapes of Billy's play were leaked by multiple TG refs to multiple DK players over the years.
The latest leak came from Dwayne over a year ago, but it wasn't the only source of footage.
Again, the jigsaw rendering problem is exhibited in the footage shown that Billy is standing
right in front of when presenting the 1.062m, the score this dispute thread is all about. This
is a bug in MAME and has absolutely nothing to do with the capture method.
You, of course, would know this information if you comprehensively read Jeremy's post.
02-04-2018, 08:03 AM
The Evener
Quote:

Nevermind. Forget what I said. Someone settled that question for both of us. There is new
evidence that digs the hole deeper. I don't have permission at this time to post it but things
aren't looking good for Billy.
Any updates on this evidence?
02-04-2018, 08:05 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Hector, if I didn't know better I'd say you were intentionally trying to muddy the waters in this
dispute thread.
Exhibit A - 000109
Tapes of Billy's play were leaked by multiple TG refs to multiple DK players over the years.
The latest leak came from Dwayne over a year ago, but it wasn't the only source of footage.
Again, the jigsaw rendering problem is exhibited in the footage shown that Billy is standing
right in front of when presenting the 1.062m, the score this dispute thread is all about. This
is a bug in MAME and has absolutely nothing to do with the capture method.
You, of course, would know this information if you comprehensively read Jeremy's post.
I'm not trying to muddy the waters, I'm asking on behalf of interested parties close to Billy as
I'm assuming he wants to know. I can't find where someone posted where the tapes came from
but maybe I missed it.
I don't get why everyone here has a problem with me asking questions, that's part of what's
going in here and if I'm missing stuff or don't understand I apologize but give me a chance,
I'm not the only one who doesn't fully understand what's going on here, I'm trying to gather
info to report back.
02-04-2018, 08:07 AM
WCopeland
I specifically told Billy over two years ago that I had his tapes. This should not be a shocker
to him.
02-04-2018, 08:10 AM
FBX
Quote:

No matter how this turns out I'm still voting NO!
An incredible statement. Completely dismissing any and all evidence that has either been
presented or might be presented in the future. In one single sentence, you've let it be known
that you will not be swayed from a subjective opinion based entirely on hearsay. Even if
tomorrow Billy were to come out and issue a confession, by your own statement, you would
still vote no. This is you going on the record as to what motivates your vote.
02-04-2018, 08:11 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Probably easier just to have people ask their own questions and thoroughly read the evidence
themselves.
Exhibit A - 000110
file:///C:/Users/Rajat/Downloads/Dispute_ Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player_ Billy L Mitchell - Score_ 1… 110/1012
02-04-2018, 08:14 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Any updates on this evidence?
Yeah an anonymous friend is talking with Tanner about it as we speak. But I feel what was
gathered here is way stronger as we all been discussing it privately and it's evident that it may
not contribute much to this discussion. Tanner would know better than me, he can chime in,
he could lay it out better than I can but again maybe it's nothing new.
02-04-2018, 08:16 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Probably easier just to have people ask their own questions and thoroughly read the evidence
themselves.
They are reading it and not getting it fully. Even then that's what the purpose of this dispute is
for, asking questions gathering evidence. I don't get why that's a problem. It's going to get
repetitive I'm sure, Dragster did. This is well laid out but I'm not the only one who finds it
confusing.
02-04-2018, 08:19 AM
WCopeland
Part of the confusion here is TG's forum software wasn't able to format Jeremy's GIFs
correctly for the side by side view.
Check the DKF thread that was posted -- it's a lot easier to follow and understand.
02-04-2018, 08:19 AM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

I'm beginning to see things as a witch hunt on the older generation gamer's.
No one is questioning what he did in the 80s or his skill. We are questioning a single
submission just a decade ago where the technology was already readily available to record a
proper attempt.
In today's age of ***** recording equipment, there is no excuse to not fully document your
record attempts. There was no reason Billy couldnt have recorded himself in front of an
original can and shown the boards on camera.
So what we are left with is the tape he allowed people to watch at one event. The TG
community has the responsibility for judging it's validity.
02-04-2018, 08:20 AM
Exhibit A - 000111
IAmNerdJock
*original cab
02-04-2018, 08:20 AM
zallard1
Quote:

I'm trying to gather info to report back.
You should link them this thread so they can ask these questions themselves.
02-04-2018, 08:28 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

for, asking questions gathering evidence. I don't get why that's a problem. It's going to get
repetitive I'm sure, Dragster did. This is well laid out but I'm not the only one who finds it
confusing.
Probably easier just to have people read the dispute for themselves and ask their own
questions.
Obviously I am not discouraging people from asking their own questions. I am encouraging
people to ask their own questions.
Attempting to ask questions for other people based on not understanding things and then
trying to ferry that info back to other sources just seems like a silly game of telephone that
won’t help anyone.
Probably best for people to read the dispute themselves and ask their own questions.
02-04-2018, 08:29 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Part of the confusion here is TG's forum software wasn't able to format Jeremy's GIFs
correctly for the side by side view.
Check the DKF thread that was posted -- it's a lot easier to follow and understand.
It's all very solid and damning if you ask me, I got enough were I can explain it to people
now. Yeah the tapes origins have come into question but the answer is satisfying enough. I've
known you and the folks in the Donkey Kong community for a while now. I also knew this
was in the works for a very long time. You guys did a great job putting this together.
02-04-2018, 08:44 AM
Riatoju
Exhibit A - 000112
Quote:

Probably easier just to have people read the dispute for themselves and ask their own
questions.
Obviously I am not discouraging people from asking their own questions. I am encouraging
people to ask their own questions.
Attempting to ask questions for other people based on not understanding things and then
trying to ferry that info back to other sources just seems like a silly game of telephone that
won’t help anyone.
Probably best for people to read the dispute themselves and ask their own questions.
I totally get that. These guys want no part, but I know enough now that there isn't much else
to tell them. I have friends who are friends with Billy and they are convinced, they are also
friends with Todd but they weren't convinced about Dragster.
02-04-2018, 08:48 AM
Riatoju
There is enough evidence here and from past submissions for Donkey Kong to say I can't see
why Billy wouldn't get the Todd treatment? Am I crazy for bringing this up? Or do we expect
him to get special treatment. I'm actually curious.
02-04-2018, 08:51 AM
Robert.F
100 people around Billy, with cellphones and videos at Boomers
Billy tells the story of the 100 people around him with cellphones and videos at Boomers
when he set the Donkey Kong record ,,, can anyone pls anyone who was there pls come
foreword show up your videos of bill playing his record scoring games,, a video of the screen
and score pls if any have :) i like at the end of video Billy blocking the screen im sure that
was not intentional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGt...ature=youtu.be
02-04-2018, 09:13 AM
Max
Quote:

There is enough evidence here and from past submissions for Donkey Kong to say I can't see
why Billy wouldn't get the Todd treatment? Am I crazy for bringing this up? Or do we expect
him to get special treatment. I'm actually curious.
The thread is for evidence or the discussion of evidence, not presumed TG actions. This
question may be best served by way of a wall post, otherwise it risks derailing the intent of
the issue at hand. It is in all of our interests to make every effort to maintain focus in dispute
threads.
Evidence supplied in this thread has already been adequate for DKF to take action.
Exhibit A - 000113
TG has clearly set precedent as to how they handle intentionally falsified scores, regardless as
to who is making the score claim.
02-04-2018, 09:19 AM
zallard1
Quote:

I totally get that. These guys want no part
Ok, but...
Quote:

for, asking questions gathering evidence.
Seems like they do have reason to post here if this statement is true. They could ask these
questions directly here instead of you acting as their only conduit of understanding the
material. They would likely understand it more comprehensively this way, since the person
who created the evidence package is also here and willing to elaborate on any specifics that
are unclear to them.
02-04-2018, 09:35 AM
thegamer1185
Can we stop using "witch hunt" as a term? It's dumb. First of all, "witch hunts" actually
burned people alive based on exactly what Billy's blind backers are doing. He said this and I
believe him, lets burn the *****. No people. Same thing happened with Todd. So lets analyze
this from my perspective, that of a guy who doesn't know Billy, who has only been around
since 2014, and could actually give two ****s less about a score being removed unless it was
found to be faked. Key word there is faked/cheated. Then I give a ****.
So, the people who backed Todd seem to be some of the very same group that is backing
Billy. Fine, circle of friends. All good with me. Here is where it gets silly. Firstly, the people
who backed Todd and Billy are saying this is a "witch hunt" because name it. We are jealous,
we are the new generation. Not accurate. It's actually the older players who had issues with
the scores because again, I don't give a **** about Dragster and never heard of Todd until the
dispute. Still don't care. Moving along with the reasons we are "witch hunting", we aren't
purists of gaming, we can't beat their scores so they cheated, you believe in unicorns. OK, so
your using the everyone is against these players and WE ARE ALL IN ON IT. Everyone. All
of us. We all somehow woke up the same day and said, Todd and Billy are no longer welcome
in any gaming community. The evidence is presented that is so strong in favor of our
conspiracy that the "Legends and Friends" only come back is they say he did it/saw him do it.
OK. We will just have to take your words for it and turn a blind eye like everyone did back in
the day. Wait, that's not accurate at all is it. I meant silenced. So hard to keep track of all these
things. Not one person in the Todd dispute or Billy dispute has presented one single piece of
evidence that could actually be taken seriously. Think about that. Not one. There is evidence
of Billy's performance right here in the dispute and instead of using it to confirm his score, we
get nothing but how the evidence isn't right because it could be this. Did you do this? The
evidence is there people, they have done it. What your talking about isn't disproving the
evidence presented. Show us something as to why the score is valid. Or disprove the
Exhibit A - 000114
evidence. I find it even funnier that instead of proving these things yourselves, your asking
the people who presented the evidence you disapprove of to do it for you, haha. Think about
that. The ones you don't already believe are the ones you want to do your work for you?
WTF?
The people who are doing these disputes are doing the same thing to the "Legends and
Friends". They are going to take every single one of them down, systematically until not a
single one of them is left. There is a long list of people created by some people from back in
the day that used to be refs, and where all friends and most have scores that are questionable.
I say most, but if the theory is correct, every single TG ref will be found as a cheat and
removed, right? That's what a "witch hunt" is people. You don't leave a single person left
standing, that's why it's called a "witch hunt". After all these "witches" are dealt with, they
will turn on each other and start tearing one another apart. Because the evidence that is being
presented against these former refs will start giving us the idea that if it's true for one, it's true
for all. That's not accurate either, the term "witch hunt" is what will determine the destruction
of every Ref who has ever existed. This conspiracy of a "witch hunt" is so strong that the refs
are in on it, knowing that will eventually be removed because of it. This **** is for reals
people.
Of course, the true ending to this story is it becomes a zombie apocalypse. Hector, I've said it
many times on facebook and I honestly can't believe you still doing it. Tell those people to
come here and look at the evidence and defend/prove Billy did the score. This is nonsense.
Why even waste your time with it, man. Tell them to grow a pair and come talk to the people
they are having the problem with to begin with. Oh, that's right, we TG people are cowards.
02-04-2018, 09:36 AM
thegamer1185
By the way, regarding the "witch hunt" term, I'd prefer if we called it "the cleansing". Just me
though.
02-04-2018, 09:54 AM
zallard1
Quote:

Many things
Wow that is a whole lot going on that's directly related to this score for people who
supposedly want no part in this dispute.
02-04-2018, 09:55 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

By the way, regarding the "witch hunt" term, I'd prefer if we called it "the cleansing". Just me
though.
Maybe "The Purge" or my favorite but over the top "Operation snuff out all the corrupted
people and have their scores removed so we can get back to gaming...plan" or
"OSOATCPAHTSRSWCGBTG...P" for short.
Exhibit A - 000115
02-04-2018, 09:57 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Wow that is a whole lot going on that's directly related to this score for people who
supposedly want no part in this dispute.
I don't play games when the kids are awake, it's cold outside, I'm seasonally unemployed.
What the hell am I supposed to do?
02-04-2018, 10:13 AM
zallard1
Quote:

I don't play games when the kids are awake, it's cold outside, I'm seasonally unemployed.
What the hell am I supposed to do?
Oh no, that wasn't directed to you or your post. That was more aimed to those who are bold
enough to post to facebook that this is apparently a "witch hunt" but not brave enough to back
it up with hard evidence here.
02-04-2018, 10:14 AM
serphintizer
Quote:

Billy tells the story of the 100 people around him with cellphones and videos at Boomers
when he set the Donkey Kong record ,,, can anyone pls anyone who was there pls come
foreword show up your videos of bill playing his record scoring games,, a video of the screen
and score pls if any have :) i like at the end of video Billy blocking the screen im sure that
was not intentional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVGt...ature=youtu.be
Yeah, that part had me rollin'.
Backed up like a shark!
02-04-2018, 10:36 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000116
billy and all these interested parties dont seem to interested to come here themselves. it would
seem if they wanted the info, it would be better to come there, than go through you. using you
as an inbetween as opposed to getting the info directly, well thats really just emulating
reading of the thread as opposed to reading it for real. hmm, now that i think of it like that,
and billy's love of emulation, i believe you.
02-04-2018, 10:44 AM
Marcade
Hector Telloc: The "Brian Kuh" role of modern day TGSAP!!! :P
02-04-2018, 10:46 AM
Barra
Billy supporters don’t want to come here because they know their “evidence” will be swiftly
and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on.
This isn’t a “witch-hunt” to take down the previous generation. This score (and others) have
been questioned for YEARS. Only now is there a way to make it official.
02-04-2018, 10:49 AM
zallard1
Quote:

and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on.
This isn’t a “witch-hunt” to take down the previous generation. This score (and others) have
been questioned for YEARS. Only now is there a way to make it official.
Well put. It's the only conclusion I could come to as well.
02-04-2018, 10:53 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Well put. It's the only conclusion I could come to as well.
Seriously, "The cleansing".
02-04-2018, 10:53 AM
xelnia
It would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to try and respond to everything that's
happening on social media. I did attempt to post something for someone on Facebook who
was misguidedly trying to create counter-evidence. That response was either missed or
ignored...so what am I supposed to do? TG also can't be expected to track down every
Exhibit A - 000117
Facebook or Twitter post as they make their decision. Evidence has been presented for the
two relevant bodies to assess: DKF and TG. Anyone wishing to be taken seriously as they
dispute (or even support) that evidence should do so on those respective forums...not by
proxy.
02-04-2018, 10:56 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

It would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to try and respond to everything that's
happening on social media. I did attempt to post something for someone on Facebook who
was misguidedly trying to create counter-evidence. That response was either missed or
ignored...so what am I supposed to do? TG also can't be expected to track down every
Facebook or Twitter post as they make their decision. Evidence has been presented for the
two relevant bodies to assess: DKF and TG. Anyone wishing to be taken seriously as they
dispute (or even support) that evidence should do so on those respective forums...not by
proxy.
Yep, understandable. There have plenty of TG people on facebook telling those Billy
believers to bring their questions here. Not really sure what more anybody can do other than
to point them to the source. Us cowards here at TG are just to lazy to go find them I guess.
Shame on us all for telling them to go to the source.
02-04-2018, 10:56 AM
Snowflake
I understand discerning between intentional trolling and honest mistakes as well as honest
questions can be difficult
I understand many of us get off topic
Even still, this thread was very logical and very informative for a while. Then it seemed to
really get cluttered. Now, even people who want the valuable information are gonna have
trouble finding it. Can I suggest admins take time to considering maybe removing certain
individuals posting ability? I would suggest a very light hand since intentions are hard to read,
but when it becomes really clear someone is just here to throw in clutter and make it harder
for people to find info I think something should be done. Maybe give us a chance to
downvote and hide comments? Theres gotta be some solution. Most people arent gonna have
time to sift through the foolishness to find the gold, and thats really unfortunate
02-04-2018, 11:03 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

billy and all these interested parties dont seem to interested to come here themselves. it would
seem if they wanted the info, it would be better to come there, than go through you. using you
as an inbetween as opposed to getting the info directly, well thats really just emulating
reading of the thread as opposed to reading it for real. hmm, now that i think of it like that,
and billy's love of emulation, i believe you.
Exhibit A - 000118
They don't want nothing to do with this community, I gave them links, discussed this with
them, ect...They had questions that I was interested in hearing myself, go between or not, I
wanted to know as well. It's settled now. If someone had evidence that could save Billy I'd
post it here. As you know there are people who think they have stuff but it's useless. There is
no one that can save Billy from this except Billy, maybe he'll say something, maybe he won't,
whatever. At this point I already spoke to more than a dozen people, they get it but they all
have their reservations, some talk about witnesses they spoke to, some talk about waiting for
Billy to respond. Some were convinced of the evidence. You all know as well as I there is
nothing left! It's time to sit back and enjoy the ride :)
02-04-2018, 11:04 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Hector Telloc: The "Brian Kuh" role of modern day TGSAP!!! :P
I have a friend named Rod Togers who wants to dispute your scores.
You better watch out, I heard he is the Marc Cohen of petty disputes.
02-04-2018, 11:10 AM
Robert.F
spare the Rod Togers and spoil the child :)
02-04-2018, 11:11 AM
Marcade
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

I have a friend named Rod Togers who wants to dispute your scores.
You better watch out, I heard he is the Marc Cohen of petty disputes.
When it comes to Petty, and disputes (with evidence like I see here) ...No I "Wont back
down".
Attachment 49599
02-04-2018, 11:31 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000119
fence about it but people have told me point blank, they were there and witnessed it!
Stephen, thank you for your input. I appreciate your perspective. Do you know if the people
you talked to that swear they were at the Boomers event and witnessed this 1,062,800 score
live would be willing to post a statement to that effect? Ideally, they'd make that statement
here on this thread, but I understand not everyone is a verified TG member or choses to
frequent the TG site. So, if they could post it elsewhere and someone could at least share
screenshots or links that would help as well. I feel if there are eyewitnesses that will attest to
the performance, that should be recorded on this dispute thread.
Also, can you make sure they are talking about this particular score, and not another score?
Billy has a lot of scores, included performances at the Kong Offs, many of which lots of well
know Donkey Kong players saw and of which there is plenty of video showing him playing.
He's definitely performed live kill-screen arcade Donkey Kong games. I'm interested in this
1,062,800 score. If we can't find witnesses that will swear they witnessed this score being
performed live on an arcade Donkey Kong machine, can we find them for his 1.05M or
1.047M scores?
Thanks,
George
02-04-2018, 11:56 AM
CWK
Based on the proof of Billy's other scores being done in mame I'm going to go out on a limb
and say this score was probably done the same way. Crazy rng also suggests a doctored inp in
his previous score
02-04-2018, 11:57 AM
CWK
Accepted!!
02-04-2018, 12:24 PM
Riatoju
1 Attachment(s)
I love you Wes and I have nothing but respect for you but this just gave my brain cancer.
Attachment 49601
02-04-2018, 12:41 PM
zallard1
Quote:

I love you Wes and I have nothing but respect for you but this just gave my brain cancer.
Attachment 49601
Completely irrelevant to the dispute & is something that should be sent to Wes via PM instead
of in this thread.
Exhibit A - 000120
02-04-2018, 12:43 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Completely irrelevant to the dispute & is something that should be sent to Wes via PM instead
of in this thread.
Oh you know you love it :)
02-04-2018, 12:53 PM
Riatoju
its true though...everything she says and provides are IRRELEVANT
02-04-2018, 01:19 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

its true though...everything she says and provides are IRRELEVANT
Then why post it here of all places?
02-04-2018, 01:23 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Then why post it here of all places?
Oh fine I'll stop. I figured I'd brighten everyone's day.
02-04-2018, 01:24 PM
Snowflake
we need to drop the appeals to authority and the ad hominems. I dont care if some disliked
person off site believes the score is fake. I dont care if some liked person thinks the score is
real, i care about evidence.
Now, that said, witnesses accounts do count for something. In the case of witnesses, we can
evaluate the trustworthiness and weather or not the witness testimony is believable. At that
point, its not ad hominem at all to question the witnesses reliablitly and expertise. I'd like to
point out, if I saw billy playing a game i'd say "oh neat billy mitchel playing" i wouldnt stare
the entire time looking with a keen eye like I would if i was an official ref or adjudicator. The
fact someone just happened to be near while he was playing doesnt mean a lot. Likewise
someone with a reputation of making things up doenst mean a lot. The only time to talk about
an individual, is as a witness, and if that witness is not just trust worthy but also took the time
to actually thoroughly examine the performance.
02-04-2018, 01:27 PM
DadsGlasses
Exhibit A - 000121
I would also add that any “witness” should come forward on his or her own. There is no need
to hear from someone that “knew a witness or talked to a witness or heard about a witness”.
Quote:

02-04-2018, 01:29 PM
Riatoju
Wasn't this score performed in a backroom while all the witnesses watched in another room?
I'd hardly call that a witness. Or was that another event?
02-04-2018, 01:42 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I wouldn't really say eye witness testimony would be any good here. The youtube video of
billy sitting in front of the two monitors shows without a doubt his "direct feed" came from a
mame cabinet. Even if people came forward and said they saw him perform it that wouldn't be
enough evidence.
02-04-2018, 02:10 PM
The Evener Exhibit A - 000122
Quote:

Billy is present:
Unfortunately there isn't a barrel transition to compare in this instance - it only provides
footage of the pie transition.
I decided to listen to Billy's explanation of how he ended up with the score of 1,062,800. I
backed it up a bit for context. Apparently 1100 points is a significant marker in passing Hank
Chien's record:
Yes, it's a million sixty-two thousand eight hundred and I know it's been said that I passed the
score by the same mark that I did Steve - the truth is I was going up the last ladder and the
last board that I played - I was calculating the last - the score and the bonus - I saw that I had
beaten it by 12 hundred - I just sort of stalled for a second and then I went across losing a
hundred points so I beat it by 11 hundred points - yeah, maybe that's a little bit of a wise guy -
but it's fun
He must be talking about the last rivets board, as the next and final screen is barrel.
A small error in Billy's explanation - so he finds a quiet place to calculate that he has the
current world record beat by 1200 points with score and bonus combined, so he stalls for a
second so the bonus drops 100, and then he crosses the last rivet - "I went across losing a
hundred points so I beat it by 11 hundred point." He forgot you get 100 points for clearing a
rivet.
To Hector's question - at Boomers arcade Billy recalled:
There was lots of hugs and kisses and hootin' and hollering...There were scores of people -
maybe as much as a hundred people at a time behind you - they had their cell phones and
videos, so word leaked out to some degree one way or another [before the announcement]
To my knowledge, no one has ever seen footage or photos on social media from the 100+
audience documenting the moment.
02-04-2018, 02:16 PM
xelnia
It's not particularly relevant to the evidence at hand, but I'd like to share this post from over at
CAGDC. In that post, Ben Jos Walbeehm recounts the pain and suffering he went through
after he beat Billy's 1982 score using MAME. He was actually the first publicly known
person to beat Billy at DK, pre-dating Tim Sczerby's arcade WR. It's heart-breaking to read
how he was treated by the community, especially knowing what we know now about Billy's
use of MAME.
Ben Jos was a DK champion, and he rarely gets the credit for it.
02-04-2018, 02:31 PM
The Evener
Exhibit A - 000123
Quote:

[snip]A small error in Billy's explanation.
Argh - I hate quoting myself, but I can't edit an existing post. I recall we don't know what the
last screen Billy played - I think it's been suggested he didn't go for the kill screen in this one?
He could have paused on the last ladder on the second barrel on Level 21, forfeiting points the
next rivet screen to maintain his 1100 margin. Sorry about that.
02-04-2018, 02:35 PM
Jace Hall
Quote:

Unfortunately there isn't a barrel transition to compare in this instance - it only provides
footage of the pie transition.
Yes. However, the pie transition rasterization on MAME is not the same as the Arcade
rasterization to original CRT and adding the pie comparison to the image document provided
previously may be helpful as a complete reference point as we continue to dig further into this
matter.
Again, only asking for this if he is inclined to add it. We are already aware of the animated gif
provided in this thread and the video itself for our own examination.
02-04-2018, 04:27 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Yes. However, the pie transition rasterization on MAME is not the same as the Arcade
rasterization to original CRT and adding the pie comparison to the image document provided
previously may be helpful as a complete reference point as we continue to dig further into this
matter.
Again, only asking for this if he is inclined to add it. We are already aware of the animated gif
provided in this thread and the video itself for our own examination.
If you catch the video with the two screens when a level is starting. You can slow down
youtube to .25 speed and it is actually very evident that it is mame rendering the game.
02-04-2018, 05:30 PM
Robert.F
what wrong with you
What wrong with you Billy why dont you Defend yourself! , id be kicking up my heals and
spouting foul words by now if i felt i was being mistreated or Wrongly accused
02-04-2018, 06:02 PM
RTM
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000124

Argh - I hate quoting myself, but I can't edit an existing post. I recall we don't know what the
last screen Billy played - I think it's been suggested he didn't go for the kill screen in this one?
He could have paused on the last ladder on the second barrel on Level 21, forfeiting points the
next rivet screen to maintain his 1100 margin. Sorry about that.
RTM REPLY - Bill pulled this stunt on at least two prior occasions. One I am 100% sure
of...he did this in conjunction with the 1,047,200 point performance revealed at ACAM 2005
where he willfully threw points away just to achieve two (2) target goals within the game
(000,000 roll-over in the L=20 elevator stage and the 1,047,200...exactly 100K higher than
Wiebe's original submission to TG).
From what I remember being told, he did it again at a subsequent event, and the quote he gave
at the time was that he was just "being BIlly Mitchell" as he abandoned the game in progress
at a certain point nowhere near the kill screen.
As for the 1100 point differential, it was stated in some post within the TG forum what the
significance of this number is to Bill...I just cannot remember the details of it.
02-04-2018, 06:04 PM
Barra
I thought the “1100” points was some sort of reference to 1.1m, which hadn’t been achieved
at the time
02-04-2018, 06:19 PM
RTM
Quote:

and severely debunked by those who actually have a clue what’s going on
RTM REPLY - not "entirely" accurate.
Some "supporters" he has lost over the years, myself included, because of number of actions
and inactions on his part largely stemming from how he acted post-KoK. He claimed never to
have seen it was but made aware of the statements contained within, and was perfectly fine
with having some of us posting and defending on his behalf on the TG forum, the old
Picturehouse forum and elsewhere.
Others just never post on the TG forum. I cannot remember the last time that I saw either
Brian Kuh or Chris Ayra make a post even before the relaunch by Jace.
Lastly, a lot of the "old TG'ers" quite simply avoid the new forum. Bear in mind that the
golden era of gamers are now in their 50's and beyond, and monitoring gaming forums let
along keeping pace with recent developments, never mind throwing themselves into the
"arena" of public debate, is not something that many of them want to engage in. I can't blame
them for a number of reasons.
Exhibit A - 000125
Perhaps Bill's biggest supporter for 30+ years has been Walter...has anyone tried to get a
statement from him ?
02-05-2018, 06:38 AM
francoisadt
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusVonFlex

I wouldn't really say eye witness testimony would be any good here. The youtube video of
billy sitting in front of the two monitors shows without a doubt his "direct feed" came from a
mame cabinet. Even if people came forward and said they saw him perform it that wouldn't be
enough evidence.
My igoramnt question: If this Billy did perform on a MAME DK cabinet hen it is just a
MAME score and not a Arcde PCB score? Is there clear evidence that he did not lay the DK
"MAME" enabled cabinet games at all? What if he did but the reording was only that of a
MAME game? If proven to be so will his score listed under MAME at TG?
02-05-2018, 07:04 AM
Muerto
Just spend 2 hours to get up to date, do to all the noise posted...

Is there a way to make links at the top of a dispute, that actually takes you to the evidence - so
one doesn't have to spend hours and hours reading about ppl joking/*****ing each other/etc?
Maybe it's in a future update? @jac eHall
02-05-2018, 07:05 AM
Muerto
And it was @Jace Hall

Please read above
02-05-2018, 07:20 AM
Robert.F
lol
Quote:

"If proven to be so will his score listed under MAME at TG?" ha ha ha ha :) , no i think he be
tarted the same way As Todd Rogers , Todd Rogers got scores removed and Ban for falsifying
records in TG data banks , Bill more less doing the the same thing if it true, it call
multiplication of the system! cheating for the lack of a better word and with this mame thing
who`s to say Billy even play theses games and just got INP from another source...:) the
possibilities are endless when using this method of mame with no sound and no boot up
screen on top of it.
02-05-2018, 08:06 AM
Exhibit A - 000126
RTM
It should be pointed out that any scores banned by TG are NOT automatically banned by
other record tracking organizations.
SO...of the outcome of the Bill Mitchell ban results in the same treatment as was handed
down for the scores by Todd Rogers, then should TG no longer recognize his scores inclusive
of the "perfect Pacman", the Aurcade scoreboard, which handles scores set at ACAM and
other Aurcade affiliates, is unaffected by that decision.
02-05-2018, 08:10 AM
RTM
In all fairness, with respect to the lengthy pictorial posting by ErockBrox...
When Bill said he was playing "two...two long" he most likely was being dramatic and meant
"too...too long".
Just my thoughts on that part.
02-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Robert.F
yes
yes bill thinks he`s funny
02-05-2018, 11:34 AM
maximumsteve
The Salem Witch Hunt of Billy Mitchell LOL...
For those that don't know me, My name is Steven Kleisath and I am the undisputed Guinness
and TG world record holder for High Scores of "Mario Bros." single player and doubles play.
I mention this because a score being legitimate is as important to me, when I know the hard
work and determination it takes to break through to take down a mammoth score. I am just
catching up with this relentless scrutiny of Billy Mitchell's DK scores on here and on the
Donkey Kong Forum website.
I am friends with Billy Mitchell and Robert Childs. I have known them for years, and interact
with them regularly on our Retro Arcade Night event we put on throughout the year at Arcade
Game Sales in Fort Lauderdale, FL.
I also consider myself a friend to some of the DK players that have launched this new wave of
trying to disprove Bill's past scores on Donkey Kong.
It is to the point where I feel I need to give my 2 cents worth of what I know and what I
believe to be true and clear.
First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....
Boomers, also known as Grand Prix Raceway, which was considered the world's largest
arcade at the time, ironically did not have a DK cabinet at that time, so a distributor brought
to the venue the cabinet that Bill would play on. Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance,
Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there,
but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a
family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along
with others witnessing in the room. These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay,
but the room overview of everyone that was in attendance. Also the manager of Boomers and
a technician working there, were present.
Exhibit A - 000127
On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in
Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious
wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it
wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations,
but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo
EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware
of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example,
if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR,
then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow,
Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com on the
East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming
weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.
02-05-2018, 11:47 AM
Snowflake
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximumsteve

whats the timezone for this?
02-05-2018, 11:51 AM
maximumsteve
Time Zone is EST, Eastern Standard Time...
Time Zone is EST, Eastern Standard Time...
02-05-2018, 11:52 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

with others witnessing in the room.
Thanks for the account. Just so that I am clear, when you say these people witnessed the
rollover do you mean they witnessed Billy Mitchell playing the game and causing
Exhibit A the
- 000128
wollover? Or do you mean they witnessed the rollover playback or a recording on a monitor?
Thanks.
02-05-2018, 12:40 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Billy claimed it was done on a real cabinet. Since he lied I would assume he would be taken
off the leaderboard for either.
02-05-2018, 12:43 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000129
EZ20 Monitor.
The video of him standing in front of 2 TVs saying he broke the world record, the screen
showing the donkey kong game is obviously a mame version of donkey kong. Are you saying
he recorded a different world record specifically on the MAME cabinet? It doesn't matter who
was there or who saw what. The video evidence shows he was using a mame cabinet for his
million point games.
02-05-2018, 12:58 PM
maxim_recoil
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

EZ20 Monitor.
Can you link to what you are referring to by "the T.V. post"? By the way, there's no mistaking
a direct-feed recording for a video-camera-pointed-at-the-screen recording. The most obvious
difference is that you can't get a straight-on view of an arcade monitor while someone is
playing the game (assuming it is an original arcade machine, rather than something with
remote controls), because their head/body is in the way. That's why they are always shot at an
angle.
Quote:
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then
Do you mean CGA to VGA? Those were available back then, and long before that as well.
Also, a CGA to VGA converter is not what you'd need for a direct-feed VHS recording from
an arcade board or a MAME PC rigged to output ~15 KHz RGB. You'd need a ~15 Khz RGB
(sometimes referred to as "CGA") to NTSC video (e.g., composite) converter. Those have
been available for ages. For example, Jrok has sold one for at least ~15 years. Here's the FAQ
page for it - http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html - and notice the date that it was
last revised (May 10, 2003). You need an RGB to NTSC converter to make a VHS recording
Exhibit A - 000130
because a VCR only has composite inputs.
Quote:
and even if they were, I am not aware of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust
an inverted video signal.
You'll have to be more specific about the "monitor defect", including how you know it's not a
defect of the CRT TV that the tape is being displayed on, but as for the inverted colors, as I
mentioned in a previous post, Sanyo included a color inverter board on the Nintendo arcade
monitors; it is mounted on the flyback cage:
Attachment 49637
It has an input header on the right-hand side and two output headers on top; the one on the
right is labeled "non invert out" and the one on the left is labeled "invert out". "Non invert
out" is simply a pass-through connection. You would use it with a Nintendo game board, or
do like I do, and just not use it at all, but rather, plug the RGB video wires from the game
board directly into the header on the monitor chassis. If using a non-Nintendo gameboard,
you would plug the RGB wires from the game board into the input header on the color
inverter board, then plug one end of that short white video cable into the "invert out" header,
and the other end into the header on the monitor chassis. This will invert the colors from the
non-Nintendo game board, and then the monitor chassis will invert them again, which brings
them back to normal.
In the case of recording a direct feed from MAME, you don't need a color inverter board at
all, because MAME outputs normal colors. You just need a way to output a composite video
signal from your PC so that you can plug it into the composite input on a VCR. You don't
even need an arcade cabinet or arcade monitor of any sort to do this. You can do it at home
from any PC which has a video card with a "TV out" (very common and inexpensive to
obtain if you don't already have one; old laptops often had them by default even).
If you want to do it from a Donkey Kong cabinet which is all original except it is running
MAME instead of the original boardset, that would mean it has a PC that's been rigged to
output a ~15 Khz RGB signal (which can be done via software, such as "Soft15khz", or by
using a special video card such as the Ultimarc ArcadeVGA card), which has been connected
to the "invert out" header on the Sanyo monitor's color inverter board. For this arrangement
you would make a parallel connection with the video cable before it reaches the color inverter
board, and run that parallel connection to e.g., a Jrok RGB to NTSC board, and from there run
a composite video cable to a VCR.
To summarize: there is nothing about a direct feed recording from MAME (or the original
Nintendo boardset for that matter) which is impossible, or even difficult; not now, and not
then.
02-05-2018, 01:00 PM
datagod
Patrick Peterson was interviewed by Kotuako (the huffington post of the gaming world). He
gets his digs in against Billy Mitchell whenever he can. To summarize Peterson's contribution
to the article: "For all we know, he did a white lie and did it on MAME or something on the
computer. I have had lots of questions over the years."
Peterson is on record stating he doesn't know the answer. Great research there, Kotuaku.
Exhibit A - 000131
Why would anyone take the word of a person who lied about getting a killscreen on DK
seriously, I'll never know. He made his quest public, did an appearance on a local TV show,
was posting daily scores for months....then nothing. Weeks go by, and Hank Chien submits his
score. A few days later Peterson makes the big announcement, showing a screen cap from
Hank's tape as his own. "L=22". Huge posts in the TG forums, boasting of this life long
achievement. Turns out he was a fraud. What a surprise.
Of course Peterson is out there, pouring gasoline on the fire trying to be seen as relevent. He
is not though. Not at all.
02-05-2018, 01:13 PM
RTM
Quote:

Billy claimed it was done on a real cabinet.
RTM REPLY - as a matter of semantics, if the surrounding shell (cabinet) was an authentic
DK cabinet yet what was going inside via direct feed was from MAME, then technically
speaking it was a "real cabinet"...if your definition of "cabinet" just pertains to the outer shell.
Then again it could be okay depending on what the definition of the word "is" is...to quote
someone famous who was also under the gun.
02-05-2018, 01:16 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

RTM REPLY - as a matter of semantics, if the surrounding shell (cabinet) was an authentic
DK cabinet yet what was going inside via direct feed was from MAME, then technically
speaking it was a "real cabinet"...if your definition of "cabinet" just pertains to the outer shell.
Then again it could be okay depending on what the definition of the word "is" is...to quote
someone famous who was also under the gun.
I forgot how could people could be at spinning stuff. Short of him coming out and saying yea,
it was done on mame but I will go live and twitch and go for a million with a real machine. I
think this matter is done. It is beyond a reasonable doubt the "direct feed" video he is
displaying on the two monitors when showing off the world records is from a mame cabinet.
Donkey Kong is not rendered like that on original hardware.
02-05-2018, 01:16 PM
Robert.F
Quote:

and TG world record holder for High Scores of "Mario Bros." single player and doubles
Exhibit play.
A - 000132
EZ20 Monitor.
"First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....Boomers, Todd Rogers and
his wife were in attendance."
"Robert Childs of course was in attendance" although he did state "billy had to wake him out
of bed" so his attendance not so good.
the distributor who brought the game was there, good that would help .
owner of Twin Galaxies Peter Bouvier was there OK but not import in he`s no longer with us
may he rest in peace. One of Peter family member was there Ok so guess we have mystery
guest that`s nice.
Along with others witnessing in the room,,,we all love to see come foreword and hear there
recollection of the day did any of them watch the whole game till the end?
"These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay, but the room overview of everyone
that was in attendance" good love to see them.
Exhibit A - 000133
Also the manager of Boomers and a technician? working there, were present. Did any of them
watch the whole game till the end?
"On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time
careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores." Ok
so everyones a nice guy and would not lie.
ok lets get to the niddgreedy

"There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the
defect on the right hand side"
No but a recording of mame game on a VCR would , remember i said VCR not to be
confused with a DVR two totally different kinds of technology.
"so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet"

well i dont know about that? what would be the purpose of using mame if you have access to
a working DK pcb. So some people dont fully the understand the dispute no big deal.
you lost me on this one

"obvious wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture,
then it wouldn't have the monitor defect"
sure there would and could , , maybe the monster a peace of crap. Non of this really has
anything to do how mame draws different on the screen over a PCB.
"screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo EZ20
Monitor."
It was how know this? who ever posted this screen shot please comforter and tell what is he
talking about?
" CGA to Vega converters were not available back then"

You mean VGA to RGBS to put mame on an arcade monitor?
Again why would Billy do that if you have access to a working DK pcb.
"For example, if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl
on your DVR, then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines."
Again Billy using old tapes and VCR`s with tracking issues it would be mess up on any TV it
was hook to.
This not about waves on the screen or drag down edges and bleeding colors , it about how
mame works differently then a PCB , this is about how its not visible to the naked eye; but if
you slow things down things you can see how the the game fills the image on the screen, right
from the vary first frame all ways the same way. the people who brought all this stuff
foreword test over and over to be absolutely certain they where right and it is understandable
by the average non technical person. Give it a read it pretty damning stuff.
02-05-2018, 01:19 PM
RTM
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000134

Patrick Peterson...He made his quest public, did an appearance on a local TV show, was
posting daily scores for months....then nothing. Weeks go by, and Hank Chien submits his
RTM REPLY - wow...the only times I had to deal with someone claiming another screen
grab/performance as their own was way back in 2001 during the summer console challenges,
and again in 2004 at the Philly Classic. That's as low as someone hitting it in a slot machine
and then a stranger claims the jackpot is theirs as the real winner is busy flagging down an
attendant. Low, low, low.
Makes me happy, in some respects, that my DK personal best (MAME) is reaching L=7 but
not even clearing it. Lame...but at least it's the truth :)
02-05-2018, 01:21 PM
Robert.F
original DKF post
original DKF post on the mame and Billy tapes http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?

topic=2055.0
02-05-2018, 01:40 PM
BenMullen
Please stop posting irrelevant garbage to the thread
This is an example... it has NOTHING to do with the dispute in question and should be
stopped. Not everthing is an opporitunity to bad mouth people you don't like ;)
Ben
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000135
02-05-2018, 01:43 PM
Robert.F
Yeah data
YEH DATAGOD STOP IT :)
02-05-2018, 01:47 PM
xelnia
Quote:

In that same article, Dave Nelson corroborates PSP's account of what happened regarding the
verification of the 1.062. I've heard that PSP isn't happy with my characterization of him in
my recent evidence post and that's fine; he's the one that has to live with his mistakes. But his
testimony in this particular instance has been backed up and is therefore important to the
overall dispute.
02-05-2018, 01:55 PM
xelnia
I think it's important to point out that the crux of the issue here is MAME vs. PCB. The direct
feed issue is important, but it doesn't affect the main body of evidence.
02-05-2018, 02:53 PM
Barra
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000136
I have a massive problem with this.
None of this evidence will be available for public reviewal by being posted in this thread.
And as far as I can see you have to PAY a subscription fee to be able to listen/watch this
show. Is this really expected of people?
02-05-2018, 03:09 PM
Barra
Quote:

Apparently a free 7 day trial is available, and the video will be posted on Youtube on
Thursday.
02-05-2018, 03:13 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Apparently a free 7 day trial is available, and the video will be posted on Youtube on
Thursday.
He is only using this as a way to make him and his friends money. He could easily come here
and say his peace but he wants it to be on a money making platform. Nothing he could say
besides an apology would count for anything. The evidence is objective.
02-05-2018, 03:17 PM
maximumsteve
Quote:

You can get a 7 day free trial of the show or it will also be available on YouTube on Thursday.
02-05-2018, 03:23 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 49647
In order to keep clutter to a minimum, Twin Galaxies will start removing posts we regard as
Exhibit A - 000137
spam or unnecessary/irrelevant comments.
While we encourage conversation, we ask that users utilize their own walls for off topic
discussions.
We appreciate your cooperation.
02-05-2018, 03:25 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

You can get a 7 day free trial of the show or it will also be available on YouTube on Thursday.
Thanks Steve. Can you reply to my question from earlier regarding the eyewitnesses that you
mentioned? Who exactly watched Billy play the game live on a cabinet? Will any of those
people be coming to this dispute thread to voice their account?
02-05-2018, 03:28 PM
The Evener
Hi Steven - It's completely understandable after the passage of almost eight years, but as we're
discussing the venue and witnesses, I wanted to add a few clarifications for the record:
Quote:

Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the
distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the
owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the
time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room."
Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record or the DK Junior record.
Billy Mitchell: "Pete was on his way there [after the DK record] …I said 'one more thing I
got to take care of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat
because I think it would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I
right?…so I played and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said
'Where's Pete?' then Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it - so that's the story
about Pete."
https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=3m31s
Billy Mitchell, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to say hi to
is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"
https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=1m51s
The distributor who brought the game, Ezno, was also not in attendance.
Billy Mitchell: "The Donkey Kong [cabinet] donor is Enzo, he donated the machine out of his
own house…he's the manager of Brady Distributing, he's on vacation"
Exhibit A - 000138
Quote:

EZ20 Monitor.
The claim is that Billy Mitchell recorded a MAME session of Donkey Kong, and most likely
Donkey Kong Junior as well off-site. From a review of the Boomer videos uploaded to
YouTube by Robert Childs, the leading hypothesis is that Billy Mitchell, Todd Rogers and
others came on site to have Robert film everyone in an attempt to establish that the DK and
DK Junior scores were performed live at the arcade.
02-05-2018, 04:14 PM
RTM
I would honestly like to know why, since TG has "live" interview capacity, "live" podcast
capacity, and is where the score in question resides, is this interview taking place at any venue
other than TG ?
This is as media-driven as "The Decision" by LeBron James. Granting an interview at TG is

potentially not as high profile as granting one to the venue that he chose, otherwise why
bother to choose any other venue at all ? Makes no apparent sense.
Just saying.
02-05-2018, 04:17 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Hi Steven - It's completely understandable after the passage of almost eight years, but as we're
discussing the venue and witnesses, I wanted to add a few clarifications for the record:
Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record or the DK Junior record.
Billy Mitchell: "Pete was on his way there [after the DK record] …I said 'one more thing I
got to take care of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat
because I think it would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I
right?…so I played and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said
Exhibit A - 000139
'Where's Pete?' then Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it - so that's the story
about Pete."
Billy Mitchell, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to say hi to
is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"
The distributor who brought the game, Ezno, was also not in attendance.
Billy Mitchell: "The Donkey Kong [cabinet] donor is Enzo, he donated the machine out of his
own house…he's the manager of Brady Distributing, he's on vacation"
The claim is that Billy Mitchell recorded a MAME session of Donkey Kong, and most likely
Donkey Kong Junior as well off-site. From a review of the Boomer videos uploaded to
YouTube by Robert Childs, the leading hypothesis is that Billy Mitchell, Todd Rogers and
others came on site to have Robert film everyone in an attempt to establish that the DK and
DK Junior scores were performed live at the arcade.
Everything here pretty much completely contradicts what @maximumsteve said on page 37
here.
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000140
EZ20 Monitor.
At this point, I can't believe or take into consideration any possible eyewitness statements.
Essentially, Billy in the videos above is either terrible at recalling his own events, or
maximumsteve is terrible at recalling events. Or doesn't know. Or he really does remember
and Billy is wrong. How can we even know. These two are supporting Billy and the fact he
performed these scores live, yet they contradict each other? Maximumsteve, Billy Mitchell,
can one of you please explain how this possible? I'm pretty sure the two quotes I copied are
referring to the same event as well. Maybe I'm wrong? Either way, eye witness testimonies
can not be accounted for with the evidence. If 100 people do actually come forward and every
single one of them tells a different other than "Billy was playing DK, I saw it" what does that
prove? Give us evidence that supports Billy. Tell us what we aren't seeing from these videos.
The more Billy's supporters talk, the more they are actually hurting him if you ask me.
If I am wrong, I'll admit to it and apologize if you can show me where I'm misunderstanding
this. Right now, I'm voting yes.
02-05-2018, 04:21 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

I would honestly like to know why, since TG has "live" interview capacity, "live" podcast
capacity, and is where the score in question resides, is this interview taking place at any venue
other than TG ?
This is as media-driven as "The Decision" by LeBron James. Granting an interview at TG is

potentially not as high profile as granting one to the venue that he chose, otherwise why
bother to choose any other venue at all ? Makes no apparent sense.
Just saying.
I'd like to expand on this and wonder how permanent the evidence there will be. Would the
owners of the material (assuming its the interviewer and not billy who own it) give TG
Exhibit A - 000141
permission to upload the video here? I wouldnt be too thrilled for example if billy gives his
interview, holes are found, and then the interview is taken down. Too much evidence has
already been hidden. What exactly does billy have against permanent evidence?
02-05-2018, 04:25 PM
DadsGlasses
Only evidence that is provided here in this Dispute thread, or legally imported into this
dispute thread, should be considered. I’m pretty sure Billy Mitchell and his supporters know
how to find Twin Galaxies website.
02-05-2018, 04:26 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I'd like to expand on this and wonder how permanent the evidence there will be. Would the
owners of the material (assuming its the interviewer and not billy who own it) give TG
permission to upload the video here? I wouldnt be too thrilled for example if billy gives his
interview, holes are found, and then the interview is taken down. Too much evidence has
already been hidden. What exactly does billy have against permanent evidence?
There is no evidence that can contradict the evidence presented in this thread regarding the
MAME rendering.
02-05-2018, 04:29 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

There is no evidence that can contradict the evidence presented in this thread regarding the
MAME rendering.
I agree so far. That's why I'm asking his supporters to show us what we are missing. We have
to give them a chance otherwise every dispute will always be once sided. If they can show me
what I'm missing, I'm all for listening and changing my vote if it's really good evidence. I also
think it's crap Billy is not even talking about this, contacting either DKF or TG about this.
He's going to a 3rd party site to handle this? That makes zero sense. Hell, bring back SIOTS
for one episode and they can interview him. Pretty sure everybody would be on board for that.
Shout to those SIOTS guys.
02-05-2018, 04:35 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000142
This IS a completely one sided dispute. The direct evidence is he used MAME to record his
world records and they were not done at boomers. The "direct feed" videos are 100% from
mame. All he can do is submit other videos of the same scores or better on original donkey
kong hardware. The fact that he purposely faked scores though. I think he might wind up
being outright banned like Todd.
02-05-2018, 04:41 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

I will even send back my SIOTS piece of the set that @timmell sent me. It just so happens to
be a Billy Mitchell signed poster!
02-05-2018, 04:46 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

This IS a completely one sided dispute. The direct evidence is he used MAME to record his
world records and they were not done at boomers. The "direct feed" videos are 100% from
mame. All he can do is submit other videos of the same scores or better on original donkey
kong hardware. The fact that he purposely faked scores though. I think he might wind up
being outright banned like Todd.
I understand that, but the TG community has been called pretty much everything by Billy's
backers. I figured I'd be a little more mature and actually give them a chance. I mean little
more mature in the smallest of all possible fractions, haha. Yes, this is one sided because
everything points against him evidence wise. We can at least be somewhat judicial about this
and let them at least attempt to defend him. It's only fair.
02-05-2018, 04:49 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I understand that, but the TG community has been called pretty much everything by Billy's
backers. I figured I'd be a little more mature and actually give them a chance. I mean little
more mature in the smallest of all possible fractions, haha. Yes, this is one sided because
Exhibit A - 000143
everything points against him evidence wise. We can at least be somewhat judicial about this
and let them at least attempt to defend him. It's only fair.
I completely agree with giving him a chance to defend himself. This is the venue to do it
though. This is where the dispute is being decided and he wants to go on some random
internet radio show.
02-05-2018, 05:06 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

I completely agree with giving him a chance to defend himself. This is the venue to do it
though. This is where the dispute is being decided and he wants to go on some random
internet radio show.
I don't recall anyone asking the other two individuals who analyzed Dragster to participate.
Omnigamer certainly didn't have to even though it was his work that helped bring the dispute
to life. I personally don't blame Billy, he's probably making way more money there than the
nada he'd make here.
02-05-2018, 05:09 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

People were asking Todd to show up in the thread and defend himself. People here are asking
Billy to come here and defend himself.
02-05-2018, 05:33 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

This statement right here shows you why that Dragster score was infamous. They didn't have
to be asked, they wanted to prove that **** was not valid. So they did their homework and
did it the right way. That's what I'm asking of the people in Billy's corner. Nothing more.
Honestly, this whole episode thing is only going to do one thing. Cater to his already believers
and appear to be smoke and BS to the those who are viewing the evidence here. You are right
though, he will get more money.
Exhibit A - 000144
I'm really curious how he plans to dispute the evidence of the MAME and Cabinets being
rendered differently. I'll bet he says it's because of the tapes/recording devices. Any takers?
02-05-2018, 05:39 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

My guess is that he will not directly address it.
He will stick to predetermined talking points that appeal to his base of supporters. I also think
he will attack current TG administration.
02-05-2018, 05:40 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

To add to this statement, you wouldn't defend your honor if somebody offered you money
elsewhere? I guess I have to ask the question then, is the person interviewing Billy reputable?
Is he non-biased and going push for some answers? Is he in Billy's corner/the disputers
corner? This plays a pretty significant part in how the interview is conducted. If he is for
Billy, we will only here the stuff supporting him. If he is against him, we will here only what
has been shown here and pressure Billy to disprove it. If he is non-biased, he will listen to his
answer, ask the next best question tying the two sides together to put the whole picture of the
event together.
As for the reputable part, if he is just another gaming fan, he won't get on Billy's bad side and
might be "star" struck. If they have done many interview, better questions will be asked. I
could go on but you all know what I'm getting at. Who is the person doing the interview and
are the informed enough in regard to MAME and Arcade cabinets to even be able to ask the
right questions. I haven't looked and don't know the person doing the interview. I'm just
asking questions for the dispute thread since this is where it belongs.
02-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Riatoju
Quote: Exhibit A - 000145


The facts are the facts no matter where they are posted, but with Dragster it would have been
great to talk to the other guys.
As for Billy, here's my guess, the tapes that everyone has were decoys, fakes created so that
the real ones never got out. The demonstration in Sroka's video were using the fakes. But to
resolve this dispute he will release the real performances which Twin Galaxies was in
possession of at one time.
That's the only way he can save himself, if the videos shown in Sroka's video were the decoys
that could hardly be used as grounds for score removal as that wasn't his actual performance.
But...that's all a very unlikely scenario. :)
02-05-2018, 05:46 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Interesting, so you suspect all he cares about is the money and doesnt care at all about the
integrity of the database. It seems like we've all come to the same conclusion, except you
seem to view that as a good thing while we view it as something less than ideal.
02-05-2018, 05:56 PM
thegamer1185
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

The facts are the facts no matter where they are posted, but with Dragster it would have been
great to talk to the other guys.
As for Billy, here's my guess, the tapes that everyone has were decoys, fakes created so that
the real ones never got out. The demonstration in Sroka's video were using the fakes. But to
resolve this dispute he will release the real performances which Twin Galaxies was in
possession of at one time.
Exhibit A - 000146
That's the only way he can save himself, if the videos shown in Sroka's video were the decoys
that could hardly be used as grounds for score removal as that wasn't his actual performance.
But...that's all a very unlikely scenario. :)
Not really. If I write down all the facts in my notebook, it doesn't do much good does it. Much
like facebook or anywhere else for that matter. There are two places for this to take place,
DKF and Twin Galaxies. I'm sure those two are being cross referenced as they should be. As
for facebook, I haven't seen any counter arguments other than fans backing him up and that
they seen him do it. In addition, that means not only do "Billy's Backers" hate TG, they
apparently hate DKF as well? The site he helped build or whatever it was he has done for
them? I posted this in facebook and I'll post it here. You can call me/TG/DKF/whoever all the
things you want. You can tell me the entire event 1 second at a time, doesn't do any good
doing it anywhere other than TG or DKF. It's just smoke and BS. Now, if they really gave a
****, they would be here. Some are, don't get me wrong and I appreciate them coming here.
However, there is still no evidence of him actually performing THIS score or other for that
matter other than their word. Would those same people believe me if I said I just got a 5.51 on
Dragster? Bad joke, but it makes my point.
Attachment 49648
02-05-2018, 06:11 PM
The Evener
Quote:

[snip]MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming weeks, so tune in and
stay tuned.
Could you clarify the reasons why you were told that the presentation of missing audio and
video from Billy Mitchell's DK records will occur "over the coming weeks" rather than in the
next 24 hours? I don't understand why the audio and video under Billy's control couldn't be
comprehensively released tomorrow.
02-05-2018, 06:13 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Interesting, so you suspect all he cares about is the money and doesnt care at all about the
integrity of the database. It seems like we've all come to the same conclusion, except you
seem to view that as a good thing while we view it as something less than ideal.
He doesn't care about TG, the evidence against him seems to prove that. But if he has some
hard evidence that can more than prove his score is legit he can post it on CNN and this
community would be compelled to accept it. TG doesn't make something legit, hard evidence
and facts do.
02-05-2018, 06:15 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000147

and facts do.
great. then he can move his score to the CNN leaderboard
02-05-2018, 06:24 PM
gstrain
This is an example of the fine journalism and insight offered by the East Side Dave Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHQ56pQjDJs. So I'm sure we'll get some hard hitting
CAG investigative journalism in Billy's chosen venue for presenting his evidence.
02-05-2018, 06:32 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

. Hopefully the lion's doing the interviewing. :)
02-05-2018, 06:33 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

and facts do.
Ummmm, I thought it WAS TG that verified his scores and ours? Now I know I'm missing
something. He also doesn't care about DKF. Sounds to me like he's a pretty self centered guy.
I'm sure many will say "I've met Billy before. He's an good guy." Where does all this hate
towards TG come from? Man, the old days must have been a bunch of assholes having a
pissing contest and nobody ever won. Did TG not do anything for Billy? I thought Walter was
always helping these guys out? So many holes I feel like I'm on the Vegas strip and
surrounded by hookers. Just filth around every hole.
02-05-2018, 06:35 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000148
Wow. TG is going to get roasted. This will be nothing but a mockery of gaming. You watch.
Not a serious thing will be addressed here.
02-05-2018, 06:36 PM
timmell
Quote:

Noted we would love to be the intermediate for Billy Mitchell and this dispute. If he wishes
not to participate in this online thread. But as he is using a outlet other than TG is already a
slap in the face to TG. TG is about the score then the gamers. If TG isn't important to him,
then he shouldn't even care if TG removes his scores or not. SIOTS would love to come back
at full capacity, but isn't in the cards right now.
02-05-2018, 06:43 PM
Robert.F
like really this is the time to post this ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES
In order to keep clutter to a minimum, Twin Galaxies will start removing posts we regard as
spam or unnecessary/irrelevant comments.
While we encourage conversation, we ask that users utilize their own walls for off topic
discussions.
We appreciate your cooperation.
like really this is the time to post this ?
02-05-2018, 06:46 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Ummmmmm. Now that I see this, I don’t think Billy is making that much money to be on
there. This guy’s videos have a few thousand views and about 40 likes. (Based on the content
Exhibit A - 000149
I admit I’m shocked they have that many.) But as far as YouTube revenues go, this isn’t high
stakes.
Tein Galaxies is the place the record is stored. If Billy is not interested in coming to Twin
Galaxies to defend himself, that’s fine. He doesn’t have to. The evidence speaks for itself.
Fire Blaster.
02-05-2018, 06:54 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Ummmm, I thought it WAS TG that verified his scores and ours? Now I know I'm missing
something. He also doesn't care about DKF. Sounds to me like he's a pretty self centered guy.
I'm sure many will say "I've met Billy before. He's an good guy." Where does all this hate
towards TG come from? Man, the old days must have been a bunch of assholes having a
pissing contest and nobody ever won. Did TG not do anything for Billy? I thought Walter was
always helping these guys out? So many holes I feel like I'm on the Vegas strip and
surrounded by hookers. Just filth around every hole.
As far as I know Billy owned TG at one time. Even so there would be no TG without Billy
and of course Walter. The fact he is being questioned is like a spit in the face. I agree no one
is off limits when it comes to disputes but ultimately when it comes to world records, I
personally am only here to eventually end up in Guinness. I'm sure Billy has plenty of those
records which are greater than TG. But.. TG did get all of Todd's Guinness certificates pulled.
However one does not need TG for validation. Carrie Swidecki goes straight to Guinness. So
there you go. Wes Copeland said his next DK world record won't be submitted here. Think
about that one.
02-05-2018, 06:55 PM
datagod
I just want to remind everyone (especially lurkers) that we the members of Twin Galaxies do
not get to decide the fate of the score, or the person with regards to removal or not.
We are here to present the evidence, to discuss it, even to debate the merit. We get to cast our
vote on whether or not this dispute is valid, based on the evidence presented. If the dispute is
voted to be valid, the Twin Galaxies Commissioner will then then conduct their own
investigation, reviewing all evidence presented, and make a decision.
People out in the world are freaking out saying there is a witch hunt going on, that Twin
Galaxies is a joke because they simply make decisions based on rumors, etc. Of course these
particular types don't bother coming here to see what is going on, they simply have their view
of the world and choose to keep it that way.
As for Scott Peterson and David Nelson, it matters not if they corroborate their stories.
Peterson is on record as approving sketchy records in exchange for monetary gain. He is
likely not the only former referee to do so.
02-05-2018, 07:07 PM
DadsGlasses
It’s so weird to me that you see this dispute as spitting in Billy’s face, rather than Billy
cheating as spitting in the entire gaming community’s collective faces. My hunchAis- that
Exhibit Twin
000150
Galaxies will outlast the legacy of a cheater. Especially if they continue to do the right things.
Collect and examine evidence. Valid scores stay. Bogus scores go, regardless of who
submitted them.
Quote:

As far as I know Billy owned TG at one time. Even so there would be no TG without Billy
and of course Walter. The fact he is being questioned is like a spit in the face. I agree no one
is off limits when it comes to disputes but ultimately when it comes to world records, I
personally am only here to eventually end up in Guinness. I'm sure Billy has plenty of those
records which are greater than TG. But.. TG did get all of Todd's Guinness certificates pulled.
However one does not need TG for validation. Carrie Swidecki goes straight to Guinness. So
there you go. Wes Copeland said his next DK world record won't be submitted here. Think
about that one.
02-05-2018, 07:09 PM
Snowflake
I feel gratitude to anyone who gave up their own time and money to help create a system
where we could compete failry
I feel zero gratitude to anyone who gave up their own time and money so they could trick
other into thinking they had a system of fair play when in reality they just controlled and
manipulated it to advance themselves.
02-05-2018, 07:24 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

cheating as spitting in the entire gaming community’s collective faces. My hunch is that Twin
submitted them.
I concur. Hector is a "Billy's Buddy". So it isn't weird. Come on Hector, you can say what you
want. You backed Todd to the end no matter what you said, and your doing the same here.
Just because he owned TG at one point means that WE are spitting in his face for possibly
cheating because he owned TG and he's being called out for it? I just want to make sure I,
Rob, and others are actually reading that right. So Hector is OK with people he knows
cheating? Didn't you just say Billy doesn't care about TG, the place along with Walter that
kind of made him the "legend" he is? Isn't him saying that spitting in TG's face? Is that what
you are saying Hector? That's what I read.
I would also like to add TG can actually remove me from the thread if they want since I know
I'm not adding much to the thread. I did try to bring all the facebook people over here
multiple times and that was when the evidence being discussed. There hasn't been much
Exhibit A - 000151
evidence since so not much to really say except respond. I would understand. I would still like
to view it though. If Hector keeps saying things like this, I'm going to keep questioning him.
Do what you will with that.
I'm trying to be non-biased to both parties here, but this exactly how Todd's dispute ended up.
Hector seemed to be doing the same thing there as well. Sorry to call you out Hector, but man
this is not helping anything at all, for either side. Yes, I include myself in that last sentence so
you can't all me a hypocrite since I'm doing what I did in the Todd dispute as well. Question
every off the wall statement being made that made zero sense.
02-05-2018, 07:36 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

cheating as spitting in the entire gaming community’s collective faces. My hunch is that Twin
submitted them.
I'm talking about him probably viewing this dispute as that. This dispute is solid in my eyes,
it's enough for the Todd treatment.
02-05-2018, 07:38 PM
timmell
Quote:

I just want to remind everyone (especially lurkers) that we the members of Twin Galaxies do
not get to decide the fate of the score, or the person with regards to removal or not.
We are here to present the evidence, to discuss it, even to debate the merit. We get to cast our
vote on whether or not this dispute is valid, based on the evidence presented. If the dispute is
voted to be valid, the Twin Galaxies Commissioner will then then conduct their own
investigation, reviewing all evidence presented, and make a decision.
People out in the world are freaking out saying there is a witch hunt going on, that Twin
Galaxies is a joke because they simply make decisions based on rumors, etc. Of course these
particular types don't bother coming here to see what is going on, they simply have their view
of the world and choose to keep it that way.
As for Scott Peterson and David Nelson, it matters not if they corroborate their stories.
Peterson is on record as approving sketchy records in exchange for monetary gain. He is
likely not the only former referee to do so.
Based on Patterson's comments in the past I will confirm his statements on the matter. (crazy
huh?) From my vantage point, There was no review of the tapes prior to the announcement at
the Big Bang 2010, other than Todd Rogers, to the best of my knowledge. There was a lot of
tension between David Nelson, Pete B, and Billy Mitchell. No one was in a good mood that
Exhibit A - 000152
Saturday afternoon.
I totally believe this dispute is valid to bring up at this time. As Billy Mitchell got special
treatment for this score. He was able to get this score verified/approved within hours. When
other gamer's scores (even arcade scores) were in a long queue sitting at some a couple of
ref's homes. He cut in line. So IMO the extra attention this score is getting now is only fair. If
this score stays or not.
His evidence at the time did not meet the standards that were en-force at TG (2010) at the
time. No Audio, Direct Capture,etc Patterson's statements about Todd Rogers not being a ref
at that time are also true, to the best of my knowledge. Based on the Twin Galaxies, phone
conferences leading up to that event.
02-05-2018, 07:41 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

I'm talking about him probably viewing this dispute as that. This dispute is solid in my eyes,
it's enough for the Todd treatment.
Moving forward, can you just speak for yourself in this dispute? The more you try and speak
for others, and ask questions for others, and interpret evidence for others, and interpret
emotions for others, the more it gets confusing.
02-05-2018, 07:50 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Based on Patterson's comments in the past I will confirm his statements on the matter. (crazy
huh?) From my vantage point, There was no review of the tapes prior to the announcement at
the Big Bang 2010, other than Todd Rogers, to the best of my knowledge. There was a lot of
tension between David Nelson, Pete B, and Billy Mitchell. No one was in a good mood that
Saturday afternoon.
I totally believe this dispute is valid to bring up at this time. As Billy Mitchell got special
treatment for this score. He was able to get this score verified/approved within hours. When
other gamer's scores (even arcade scores) were in a long queue sitting at some a couple of
ref's homes. He cut in line. So IMO the extra attention this score is getting now is only fair. If
this score stays or not.
His evidence at the time did not meet the standards that were en-force at TG (2010) at the
time. No Audio, Direct Capture,etc Patterson's statements about Todd Rogers not being a ref
at that time are also true, to the best of my knowledge. Based on the Twin Galaxies, phone
conferences leading up to that event.
Seriously? Hell, @Jace Hall should remove the score based on it not even meeting the
requirements of the time it was accepted to begin with. That right there proves how corrupt
things really were back then. That would be like someone posting a submission with a score
Exhibit A - 000153
and nothing else and being accepted. No video, no photo, it's all good. This whole thing just
stinks. Put an end to this...this is me just saying things in disgust, haha.
02-05-2018, 07:55 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

I concur. Hector is a "Billy's Buddy". So it isn't weird. Come on Hector, you can say what you
want. You backed Todd to the end no matter what you said, and your doing the same here.
Just because he owned TG at one point means that WE are spitting in his face for possibly
cheating because he owned TG and he's being called out for it? I just want to make sure I,
Rob, and others are actually reading that right. So Hector is OK with people he knows
cheating? Didn't you just say Billy doesn't care about TG, the place along with Walter that
kind of made him the "legend" he is? Isn't him saying that spitting in TG's face? Is that what
you are saying Hector? That's what I read.
I would also like to add TG can actually remove me from the thread if they want since I know
I'm not adding much to the thread. I did try to bring all the facebook people over here
multiple times and that was when the evidence being discussed. There hasn't been much
evidence since so not much to really say except respond. I would understand. I would still like
to view it though. If Hector keeps saying things like this, I'm going to keep questioning him.
Do what you will with that.
I'm trying to be non-biased to both parties here, but this exactly how Todd's dispute ended up.
Hector seemed to be doing the same thing there as well. Sorry to call you out Hector, but man
this is not helping anything at all, for either side. Yes, I include myself in that last sentence so
you can't all me a hypocrite since I'm doing what I did in the Todd dispute as well. Question
every off the wall statement being made that made zero sense.
Unlike Dragster, I agree with this dispute. Although I haven't seen evidence that 5.51 is
possible TG failed to do a third party analysis that concluded if the score was even possible
thus stripping Todd of his Guinness certificate that Activision, not TG helped him get. Ben
Heck said on Atariage.com something along the lines that he wasn't interested in looking into
if the score was possible. Omnigamer confirmed this. TG later said they would continue with
the analysis then dropped the whole thing after months of piling evidence on other scores.
Cheat or not TG promised Todd a fair trial, was the decision right? Yes, but what happened to
the third party analysis to confirm if 5.51 was possible or not. It didn't happen. Magically
Omnigamer was right, even though TG said the opposite for months. This is the same TG you
all put so much faith into.
However here we have multiple videos from various events with proof they were performed
on MAME. I knew this day was coming for a long time, as Wes told me things in 2015. These
things need to be done. I'm friends with alot of close friends of Billy's including Walter. But
I'm just a spectator asking questions when they come. Right now I've heard nothing from my
pals that can save Billy. The word on the streets is Billy is about to lay the smack down, but I
won't believe it until I see it. I just can't see how he can explain this.
02-05-2018, 07:58 PM
Riatoju
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000154

Moving forward, can you just speak for yourself in this dispute? The more you try and speak
for others, and ask questions for others, and interpret evidence for others, and interpret
emotions for others, the more it gets confusing.
I agree, I'll encourage folks to bring it here or get Billy to defend himself through other
means. I can ask most of the folks who put the evidence together directly as alot of them are
my friends too. At this point I'm just watching the show.
02-05-2018, 08:02 PM
The Evener
For background: looks like East Side Dave McDonald and Billy Mitchell go back to at least
2009, when Billy appeared a few times on the Special Delivery Show, which was broadcast
on satellite radio.
For the curious, here's an interview from January 2009 - in this interview Billy discusses
submitting high scores tapes, including his KoK 1,0417,200 "just for entertainment purposes."
(around 4:10). I wonder if this entertainment element will come up in tomorrow's interview.
I don't want to fan the flames of a KoK rehash, but Billy's entertainment-only stance doesn't
sound completely accurate, as I understand despite the score's temporary removal by RTM on
June 7th 2005, Billy ultimately submitted a master tape which was "formally and definitively
approved" the 1,0417,200 score on 6 January 2006.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.ca/20...d-history.html
Billy also mentions that there isn't a world record that he holds or held where he doesn't have
a personal score that's higher. (6:11)
https://youtu.be/ao90Mvwr-t0
02-05-2018, 09:17 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
5 Attachment(s)
Quick update:
We have been following this evolving dispute very closely and have started the
comprehensive process of verifying some of the technical assertions being made, as well as
searching through our very limited previous-TG-era video tape archives for further data.
We have also been receiving direct private contact from various historical TG community
members who would like to contribute information regarding this score.
Those who have contacted us privately have been directed to place any and all testimony they
care to share here in the public dispute thread, as the content contained in this formal dispute
thread will be the only official body of evidence considered. We look forward to those
contributions should those people choose to step forward.
In the meanwhile, the community can rest assured that we are methodically examining all the
compelling evidence presented in this dispute thread and as we discover new information (or
confirm things) we will make it all publicly available here.
Exhibit A - 000155
Thank you for your patience.
Attachment 49656Attachment 49657Attachment 49658Attachment 49660Attachment 49659
02-06-2018, 05:39 AM
CWK
Mame can be played on a sanyo monitor...no problems
02-06-2018, 05:46 AM
maximumsteve
Info for Tonight(Tuesday Feb. 6th) and addition to my message yesterday...
I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on
tonight and also give the Youtube addy to view it there, as it will be up by Thursday...
To follow up on a personal note to what I put out there yesterday, Ultimately,to be a
devil's advocate, if you will, and completely objective about this whole thing, I did
express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been
deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or weekend
if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't automatically
achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable, but at the same
time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to be there in
person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a live stream
or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people disputed any of my
Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I would do. Put your
money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front of all the skeptic's
faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So even though Bill will
start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord, that he should do that
in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for tonight.... If you go to
www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name, temp@compoundmedia.com, and
the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in for free. Make sure on the
password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube channel to view it as soon as
Wednesday or Thursday, is https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.
02-06-2018, 05:51 AM
DadsGlasses
What does thus have to do with the claim that Billy submitted Mame recordings and passed
them off as Arcade?
Can you answer the question from earlier as to who exactly witnessed Billy playing the game
in question live and achieving the stated score?
Quote:

express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to aExhibit
welcomed
A - and
000156
official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has
been deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or
weekend if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't
automatically achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable,
but at the same time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to
be there in person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a
live stream or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people
disputed any of my Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I
would do. Put your money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front
of all the skeptic's faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So
even though Bill will start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord,
that he should do that in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for
tonight.... If you go to www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name,
temp@compoundmedia.com, and the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in
for free. Make sure on the password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube
channel to view it as soon as Wednesday or Thursday, is
https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.
02-06-2018, 05:53 AM
Robert.F
I used mame in my DK cab no problem!

The converter just need to be plug in to the sanyo monitor inverter board that on the flyback
cage
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Ar....c100705.m4780
02-06-2018, 06:01 AM
Robert.F
im not saying
I`m not saying i think Billy had mame in his cab at boomer`s and if all billy proving is he did
have a pcb in the cab (SO WHAT?) it has no baring on the fact that his tape he supposedly
made at boomer`s are mame
02-06-2018, 06:04 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable, but at the same
time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to be there in
person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a live stream
or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people disputed any of my
Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I Exhibit
would do.A -Put your
000157
money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front of all the skeptic's
faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So even though Bill will
start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord, that he should do that
in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for tonight.... If you go to
www.compoundmedia.com and type for the user name, temp@compoundmedia.com, and
the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in for free. Make sure on the
password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube channel to view it as soon as
Wednesday or Thursday, is https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos
Thanks.
thx for the free link cause i sure aint giving those guys any money. Also, you should really
warn people that since those guys like to speak highly of hitler, make fun of people with
disabilities, laugh about beating wives, and other hideous things that this interview might not
be child safe.
02-06-2018, 06:07 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

What does thus have to do with the claim that Billy submitted Mame recordings and passed
them off as Arcade?
Can you answer the question from earlier as to who exactly witnessed Billy playing the game
in question live and achieving the stated score?
Would witnesses know the difference between MAME and an actual machine? I doubt it.
02-06-2018, 06:08 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

I did express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and
achieve a score like that on a first try live.
This make's me question if you understand what the issue is here. The issue is not if Billy can
achieve a certain score. The question is if Billy submitted falsified evidence for a score
(Currently all evidence points to yes).
If I cheat on a test and get caught and the teacher flunks me, I don't get to go back and say,
well, if you let me retake the test I can get the same score. It doesn't matter why I cheated. It
doesn't matter that I may have been capable of acing the test on my own.
This show is likely a waste of time in regards to any evidence for this dispute
02-06-2018, 06:10 AM
Riatoju


thx for the free link cause i sure aint giving those guys any money. Also, you should really
warn people that since those guys like to speak highly of hitler, make fun of people with
disabilities, laugh about beating wives, and other hideous things that this interview might not
be child safe.
Now you sound like... Well nevermind... But I am thankful for the login credentials because I
sure as hell don't want to put my credit card on the line.
02-06-2018, 06:11 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

Now you sound like... Well nevermind... But I am thankful for the login credentials because I
sure as hell don't want to put my credit card on the line.
yeah, scary isnt i? but this time it actually is true.
02-06-2018, 06:16 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Would witnesses know the difference between MAME and an actual machine? I doubt it.
I don’t know or care what those witnesses would know about Mame.
The gentleman made the claim that many many people witnessed Billy achieving the score in
question. So far, no one has been able to verify that anyone actually saw Billy achieving this
score. A witness account of seeing Billy actually achieving this score live would be helpful to
the overall dispute, regardless of that persons expertise in Mame.
Lets not forget that there were people claiming to be experts in Dragster that claim they saw
Todd get a 5.54. When pressed, that evidence fell apart and it turned out they didn’t actually
see it. I wonder if that would be the case here?
02-06-2018, 06:19 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

yeah, scary isnt i? but this time it actually is true.
Don't get me wrong I agree with you for pointing it out. This doesn't help him.
02-06-2018, 06:24 AM
maximumsteve
Why do you think I just gave out the info for the show tonight glasses? Think about it.
Exhibit A - 000159
02-06-2018, 06:31 AM
maximumsteve
I know what the issues are. A lot of the same people who are accusing and making these
allegations, ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE Bill can get these scores period, including today.
That's my point Black Flag. "My War, You're one of them, you say that your'e my friend but
your one of them" Listen to that song from the band you chose to make your screen name of,
lol.
02-06-2018, 06:41 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

Again, it doesn't matter if he can get the score and it doesn't matter if people believe he can
get the score. The only relevant thing here is that there is overwhelming evidence that Billy
submitted a falsified score, and you nor anyone else has posted a shred of evidence that says
otherwise. His ability to get the score or higher is a moot point.
02-06-2018, 06:51 AM
The Evener
Quote:

Please convey the following statement to Billy from Twin Galaxies about how the dispute
review process functions:
Those who have contacted us privately have been directed to place any and all testimony they
care to share here in the public dispute thread, as the content contained in this formal dispute
thread will be the only official body of evidence considered. We look forward to those
contributions should those people choose to step forward.
02-06-2018, 06:58 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

Because your the new Brian Kuh?
In any case, as already stated, unless the interview is going to get heavy, deep, and real into
the code of DK MAME and the DK PCB I'm not sure it will have much bearing on anything.
02-06-2018, 06:59 AM
Blackflag82
Exhibit A - 000160
*you're
inability to edit is a killer
02-06-2018, 07:10 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackflag82

Because your the new Brian Kuh?
In any case, as already stated, unless the interview is going to get heavy, deep, and real into
the code of DK MAME and the DK PCB I'm not sure it will have much bearing on anything.
On second though, this is probably a low blow to Brian and may be exhibiting some toxicity,
so please feel free to remove it Heavy Hand...my apologies.
02-06-2018, 07:26 AM
maximumsteve
Brian Kuh? Spare me with your geeky grammar shots. You just want to keep asking questions
instead of just listening to a show that will provide a platform for the person being accused to
address on his own behalf. I just got through posting my opinion to him on what he should do
AFTER he addresses the past, meaning all of the technical questions, complaints, and
skepticism of the previous scores in question. I speak for myself and my game records speak
for themselves.
02-06-2018, 07:29 AM
DadsGlasses
Maybe you dont understand?
This is the Dispute thread. This is the body of evidence that will determine if TG removes the
score. You made a claim, here in this thread, that multiple people witnessed the score. I asked
for clarification so that it could be documented here, where it matters. Others have disputed
the claim you made about certain individuals as witnesses. Billy’s own words on video
dispute some of your claims.
So again, who witnessed Billy playing live and achieving the score that is in dispute?
Quote:

02-06-2018, 07:31 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000161
That's my point Black Flag. "My War, You're one of them, you say that your'e my friend but
your one of them" Listen to that song from the band you chose to make your screen name of,
lol.
I think maybe you need to re-read the dispute? Whether or not Billy can achieve this score
today is of zero significance.
02-06-2018, 07:32 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

You just want to keep asking questions instead of just listening to a show that will provide a
platform for the person being accused to address on his own behalf.
Actually I just want him to come to either of the forums (here or DKF) which already provide
him a platform to answer his accusers and the questions. You are right, I don't want to spend
time listening to a show which is not going to deal with the questions at hand.
02-06-2018, 07:37 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

I’m asking you to clarify a statement that you made here in this dispute thread. I am asking
that you clarify it here. I’m not sure what this has to do with Billy going on an internet show?
I assume you speak for yourself? You made a claim. I’m asking you to clarify. If anything,
that should help Billy? I’m not sure why this would cause you to get defensive?
Who watched Billy playing live and achieving the score in question?
02-06-2018, 07:46 AM
IAmNerdJock
I think Wes' evidence should be taken pretty seriously. Correlation does not equal causation,
but Billy's scoring is certainly an outlier
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVDyEHrX4AEnxP0.jpg
02-06-2018, 07:48 AM
IAmNerdJock
What Wes put together is something Billy must address in the interview
02-06-2018, 07:52 AM
RTM
Is the format of this interview closed, or will call-ins be allowed either via phone or online
messaging ?
Exhibit A - 000162
I'm guessing the former thus wonder if just "softball" questions will be asked.
02-06-2018, 10:03 AM
gstrain
Quote:

Now on to the login info for tonight....
Steve,
Thanks for this login info and for taking your time to post here and try and facilitate
communication and the sharing of information. I may not agree with you on everything with
regards to this dispute, but I sincerely thank you for your efforts.
People, can we please lay off any personal attacks and insults to Steve? It's completely
inappropriate, does nothing to facilitate this dispute, and just gives ammunition to those
labeling TG disputes as lynch mobs. While it would be great if Billy and any witnesses of his
scores would come here and post on this thread themselves, it seems unlikely that is going to
happen. However, none of that is Steve's fault so please don't take anything out on him. It's
certainly fair for people to ask him questions about his posts, but repeating them over and
over doesn't accomplish anything. We should be patient, wait a reasonable amount of time for
answers, and focus on the evidence.
-George
02-06-2018, 10:17 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Steve,
-George
Thanks for answering for Steve, who could have simply answered the questions. Or could
answered by saying I can't answer that yet, I will get back to you. I see what you mean
though. Damn it, now I'm doing it to you. I must be a lynch mobber. Thanks for not calling us
Exhibit A - 000163
names though. Will this start to ever sink in that people answering for other people and
sticking up for other people doesn't solve anything? Oh wait, you said that. I should be patient
by asking the same questions over and over by getting ignored while person posts another
comment not answering the question. See, now I'm answering for Rob who is the one asking
the same question over and over but gets no answer. Hope this solved the issues by me
speaking for him not really knowing what Rob would really say.
Seriously? It's the god damned Dragster dispute 2.0.
02-06-2018, 10:32 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

Steve,
-George
I assume I was the one that “asked him the same question over and over.” I apologize to
anyone that saw that as an “insult or personal attack”. To be honest, I don’t even understand
how that could be seen as a personal attack of any kind, but ok.
To clarify: this thread is considered the definitive body of evidence for Twin Galaxies and his
dispute. So if a person makes a statement that impacts that body of evidence, clarification
should generally be seen as a good thing. Steve’s statement regarding witnesses was a bit
ambiguous. That’s not an attack or a judgement against Steve. Clarification regarding this
statement can be very helpful to the dispute and the to statement that Steve was trying to
make. He has continued to post here, but not answer the question. It’s hard to tell if that is
because he missed the question and it got buried? Or if he just doesn’t want to answer the
question. I don’t know unless he answers.
No slander, insult, disrespect, or anything else negative towards Steve was intended by me.
Steve, I apologize if my question came across as insulting. I can always be reached via PM if
you have concerns about my treatment of you or anyone else on the forum.
02-06-2018, 11:07 AM
xelnia
Exhibit A - 000164
@timmell Can you describe the circumstances around the following piece of footage, posted
on the SIOTS YouTube channel? Specifically, do you recall the original source of the video, if
that clip was part of a larger piece of footage, and if it was something "officially" published
by TG at the time? Thanks.
https://youtu.be/hbRN549NYuU
02-06-2018, 11:20 AM
Robert.F
""Final minutes of Billy's former record.

This is a direct recording that was done of the game Billy played LIVE in Florida after the
filming of the King of Kong ended to regain the record.
In attendance live was a referee, 300+ witnesses, and notary publics who had the machine's ""
Again with the witnesses 300 plus this time and in attendance live was a referee and and and
no less then Two
Notary public`s Wow cant dispute that kind

of dedication to to Make People Believe in
You
02-06-2018, 11:40 AM
Robert.F
We can all learn something
Billy Mitchell at Big Bang 2010

This video is a precursor to tonight interview, rebuttal whatever you want to call it. watch him
in action and how he go`s about things when talking about himself and other`s ,, enjoy :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMNriufgg0g
02-06-2018, 11:43 AM
timhett
Quote:

""Final minutes of Billy's former record.
This is a direct recording that was done of the game Billy played LIVE in Florida after the
filming of the King of Kong ended to regain the record.
In attendance live was a referee, 300+ witnesses, and notary publics who had the machine's ""
Again with the witnesses 300 plus this time and in attendance live was a referee and and and
no less then Two
Exhibit A - 000165
Notary public`s Wow cant dispute that kind

of dedication to to Make People Believe in
You
This is very fortunate. So this means that there is a notarized document that exists with
someones name on it that swears that they saw the whole thing.... ?
02-06-2018, 11:46 AM
Robert.F
yes vary suggestive Tim :)
"This is very fortunate. So this means that there is a notarized document that exists with
someones name on it that swears that they saw the whole thing.... ?"
that sounds about right :)
02-06-2018, 11:50 AM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

This video ends at 1,050,200 not the 1,062,800 score in question. So whats the purpose of that
video?
02-06-2018, 11:56 AM
Robert.F
Steve Wiebe at Big Bang 2010
Steve Wiebe not happy there no

Donkey Kong cab at the big
bang ,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGGBVBoPWA
02-06-2018, 12:01 PM
Robert.F
i hope the thing tonight with billy dose not go like

Exhibit A - 000166
Steve Sanders remarks :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YL2txwQdPg
02-06-2018, 12:34 PM
IAmNerdJock
Looks like this is turning into some publicity/ marketing stunt as Richie Knuckelz just
announced King of Kong 2
28 min mark
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...8&id=620523377
02-06-2018, 12:43 PM
xelnia
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmNerdJock

This video ends at 1,050,200 not the 1,062,800 score in question. So whats the purpose of that
video?
Please refer to
this post to see the relevance of ALL of Billy's supposed 1M+ scores to this dispute.
02-06-2018, 12:43 PM
WCopeland
Quote:

28 min mark
Going on the record to say I want no part in or involvement with any King of Kong 2 project.
02-06-2018, 12:57 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

28 min mark
Exhibit A - 000167
This Dispute is about Billy Mitchell’s Score. Sounds like the plan tonight is to name other
cheaters as a means of distraction?
02-06-2018, 01:00 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

let the man speak. I'm perfectly happy to hear about other cheaters.
02-06-2018, 01:02 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

let the man speak. I'm perfectly happy to hear about other cheaters.
Im all for hearing about cheaters. I just hope it’s not the, “Everyone was doing it so it’s ok”
routine.
02-06-2018, 01:10 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

Please refer to
this post to see the relevance of ALL of Billy's supposed 1M+ scores to this dispute.
What software did you use to break down the videos, and how much did you slow down the
videos to be able to see the piece by piece loading? I took that 1.05m video that Timmell
linked to, stuck into Premiere, and slowed it down to 0.58% speed (the slowest Premiere can
go). I am not seeing the piece by piece loading that MAME does.
https://youtu.be/MpbfO8glw6s
02-06-2018, 01:14 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000168
Did you check all the load screens?
02-06-2018, 01:16 PM
IAmNerdJock
I looked at several from that video and didn't see it. I haven't looked at all of them yet.
Haven't had time
02-06-2018, 01:17 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I literally just slowed down the youtube video to .25 and saw that it was mame rendering it.
check at the 32 minute mark during the game screen loading.
02-06-2018, 01:19 PM
IAmNerdJock
32 min mark? Could you link that video?
I was referring to the video Timmell linked too here https://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=hbRN...ature=youtu.be
02-06-2018, 01:20 PM
RomulusVonFlex
1 Attachment(s)
Right here. See what I mean? That is mame.Attachment 49685
02-06-2018, 01:36 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

Right here. See what I mean? That is mame.Attachment 49685
I agree that that is absolutely MAME and can easily see that. Its the 9 min video that shows
"Final minutes of Billy's former record" where I don't see it. Its almost like there's two
different videos. At the 990,700 mark in the Settle on the Screen video, it doesn't show piece
by piece. In the direct feed at the same mark, it does show piece by piece MAME style
loading
02-06-2018, 01:38 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000169
Quote:

I agree that that is absolutely MAME and can easily see that. Its the 9 min video that shows
"Final minutes of Billy's former record" where I don't see it. Its almost like there's two
different videos. At the 990,700 mark in the Settle on the Screen video, it doesn't show piece
by piece. In the direct feed at the same mark, it does show piece by piece MAME style
loading
Different rendering could cause the frams to drop. It is extremely quick.
02-06-2018, 01:40 PM
IAmNerdJock
I just wanted to be sure, which is why I tested it myself. The Direct Feed showing the 1.05m
attempt in entirety is absolutely MAME.
02-06-2018, 01:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I just wanted to be sure, which is why I tested it myself. The Direct Feed showing the 1.05m
attempt in entirety is absolutely MAME.
After checking that time on both videos, the transition happens to fast at that point and can't
be slowed down enough.
02-06-2018, 01:44 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

After checking that time on both videos, the transition happens to fast at that point and can't
be slowed down enough.
Pulling it into Premiere you can. With the Direct Feed, its very easy to spot. The SOTS video
must have really dialed down the frame rate, because I slowed it down to the maximum and
couldn't see it.
02-06-2018, 01:45 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Pulling it into Premiere you can. With the Direct Feed, its very easy to spot. The SOTS video
must have really dialed down the frame rate, because I slowed it down to the maximum and
couldn't see it.
That was uploaded like 8 years ago as well. Youtube kind of sucked back then with
compression even more than they do now.
Exhibit A - 000170
02-06-2018, 01:48 PM
BenMullen
Just watched that as well. I guess its all fine they are not presenting anything here in that case
as it wont be relevant. Mostly looks like this whole days comm traffic will have been one big
distraction. Let us not get distracted. On with the dispute.
Quote:

02-06-2018, 01:50 PM
erockbrox
Here are my thoughts on the matter. I hope that I do not offend anyone as I'm just trying to
partake in this dispute thread.
1) Billy Mitchell was a big arcade player in the early days of video games arcades.
2) Billy set some records which held the test of time for many years.
3) One day Steve Wiebe comes out of nowhere and challenges Billy's record.
4) Steve is at the top of his game in Donkey Kong.
5) Billy probably hadn't played Donkey Kong in a while.
6) Billy sees Steve as a threat.
7) Steve is forced to preform live Donkey Kong scores to prove himself.
8) Billy is out of practice on Donkey Kong so he won't do any live performances.
8) Billy then sets up a plan to prevent Steve from beating his score.
9) This plan involved a VHS tape submission.
10) The score Billy submitted on the VHS tape has questionable integrity.
11) Billy probably originally submitted the tape as a "stunt" just to mess with Steve Wiebe.
12) But the stunt and score was taken very seriously by everyone and the record on the tape
was accepted.
13) The score on Billy's tape probably represents a score that is above Billy's own natural
abilities.
14) Steve works harder at Donkey Kong and gets better.
Exhibit A - 000171
15) Billy works harder at making better stunt tapes.
16) Billy then needs to submit his stunt tapes to a referee to get them verified.
17) Billy cannot get these tapes verified by any normal means as they are questionable.
18) Billy then gets a special referee, Todd Rogers to verify the special tapes.
19) The scores on Billy's tapes get entered into the Twin Galaxies database.
20) The scores on the tapes are questionable since Billy never got close to these scores at the
Kong Offs.
21) The Kong Offs are a live venue where the best Donkey Kong players preform live in front
of an audience.
22) Now we are talking about these tapes and their integrity in this very thread.
https://i.imgur.com/P8Wtq7K.png
02-06-2018, 01:52 PM
timmell
Quote:

Going on the record to say I want no part in or involvement with any King of Kong 2 project.
If that's the case, I will burn every DK cabinet/ PCB before any filming. Even computers with
MAME and the rom on it. Hide your machines everyone.
02-06-2018, 01:54 PM
Dwayne Richard
Is This the only score of Billy Mitchell that needs to be checked into?
While were are checking into the facts about Billy Mitchell's video game history. How about
we get a referee to validate his Pacman score?!
What people are unaware of is a number of scores ended up in the database without having
been validated by other then bill himself! Take for example Chris Arya's perfect pacman it
was not validated by a referee. Their tape shows bill just calling up walter in the middle of the
night and telling him to put the score in the database.
How about what we seen from the King of Kong? Bill is on the phone with Walter and say do
you want me to put the score in the database and what does Walter do puts score in database.
What people have to understand is that Walter has owned tg and so has Bill. They were both
owners of Tg when the pac man score was achieved. Think about what happened. There is
what you were told which were lies that obscured the truth of the matter. How was the press
release able to be sent out so quick? This is a scandal between owners of Twingalaxies at the
time. They did because they could. All the people that were around then realized Bill's score
was never validated much like his current scenario!
Exhibit A - 000172
The donkey kong and pacman story are very similar. Bill is under pressure to make sure he is
recognized as the best. Both Rick Fothergill and Steve Weibe put pressure on Bill that he was
not expecting and was unprepared for. He never really was playing pacman at all until Rick
Fothergill told him he was gonna go for it a a fun thing to do at funspot.
Bill was out-classed with continuous forward moving grouping patterns that allowed Rick to
finish the blue time boards in under 45 minutes. Bill with his old techniques was 2 hours give
or take an half an hour. He was supposed to wait to play Rick head to head but he knew he
could not beat him. So Bill and Walter broke the agreement that was announced to play later
in Vegas that year.
Bill and Walter were the only ones who knew what the plan was. Bill went to go play at the
Funspot and he was to stay there and play till he got the score. The Problem is there was no
referee there! How did a press release go out the next day proclaiming BIll a hero? Did Bill
overnight the tapes to Walter or any referee? No. Did anyone view are confirm the legitimacy
of the performance?
This is where most don't realize Bill did get a score of 3,333,360 but he broke the rules of
submission. If the game were to be validated and checked into it would not stand up to the
standard even from the 80's rules for tg and guinness we all knew.
What do i mean. There the time took to play was too long for a non marathon game. He took
way too many breaks. They could never come up with a straight answer as to how long the
game took. Why because they knew someone could call them on it. It was first announced as
6 and a half hours which is way to long and even 6 is too long. The times are so many times
they claim Bill did the score in. If the score was properly validated do you not think they
would be able to say a correct time and settle on it? They put a bogus time in the Guinness
record book that went to print in 2007
The guinness rules and tg rules which we all knew is that the most you can do for break is 5
minutes an hour. He admits on his tape that it took him two hours to do his blue time and he
took a 30 minute break right after. Right there his game should not be accepted.
But because i have part of the tape and he admits on it he has to change tapes. I believe we
shall find out Bill's actual performance was not captured on one continuous recording.
Another reason for disqualification or rejection of the submission.
Bill and Walter play fast and lose with themselves being exceptions to the rules. They have an
agenda to make tg famous and make some money off it. So i believe we shall find another
smoking gun if anyone cares to call him out. The tape i have came from Robert when he was
cleaning out tg stuff when we all got fired and replaced as referee's.
Donkey Kong
What people don't realize is that the announcement he made to shock the world beyond his
pacman score during his MTV interview was a 1 million point Donkey Kong score!
He thought this would give him more popularity and make him more famous. What
happened? Steve Weibe came out of nowhere to challenge his ego. The king of kong movie
put pressure on Bill and his attempt to be the first one to a million and get the attention. He
was not practiced just like when Rick challenged him on pacman so he had to make a plan to
gain an advantage. "Oh Billy Mitchell always has a plan!" He friend Robert Childs is very
Exhibit A - 000173
gifted in this technology. He was the one to help with the direct feed cheating method. Bill is
a control freak when he is on a mission to fulfill a plan. The king of kong documentary put
even more pressure on Bill to be able to perform. He wasn't able so they had to do something
to put up a score.
What people don't realize unlike now we no how to score a million points. 1.1 million and
over 1.2 now. There are certain things you cannot do to get a score that high and things you
have to do to get a score that high. Bill had to figure that out pretty quick. He used everything
he knew in how to get a score that high. The problem is no one in reality would or could play
that risky and be able to stay alive long enough on 50 plus barrel boards to get the extra point
you needed.
What do I mean? Bill would group barrels on the third level and force them down the left side
so he could go back to the second level and beat them for points with the hammer. He would
get as many as 16 barrels averaging around 10 to 12. This is the only way he knew how to get
the extra points he needed to get to a million. The problem is he could only do that in mame
and not live on a real game.
Not one of the 1.1 million players would do this or even the 1 million point players. But Bill
was closer then he realized to fooling us all. If he would have been able to use the barrel
grouping at the top to get his extra points by forcing multiple 300 point jumps in a row. Like
Ross Benziger figured out from watching Bill's tape. He would have been able to save state a
method that would have been believable.
Hank Chein was the new guy on the scene and took awhile to figure out what was going on
really. The backdrop of the king of kong documentary distracted everyone including me.
When I got fired i was on a mission to find the truth and i thought the truth would expose
weibe as a cheater and Bill as the victim. That is not what i found out. Again Steve did break
the rules in his submissions! but he could play.
The problem I had was I originally thought Bill's gameplay was the touchstone to compare to,
but I was wrong.
When I got fired I went through all kinds of scenario's how someone could cheat. I checked
into possibility of changing the code i talked with Jeff who did the never versions of donkey
kong but what i realized is using mame save state would be perfect. I asked Rick Fothergill a
couple times if we could record a fake mame save state recording to submit to see if the new
referee's could catch it. He declined and so i never followed up on that, but at the same time
Hank told me his concerns about Bill's gaming techniques.
He showed me a number of things that had him convinced there was something wrong with
Bill's submissions and his playing style. It got to the point where he prepared a power point
presentation to Dave Nelson to show all the problems and inconsistencies of the donkey kong
universe. But as luck would have it, Hank broke the world record at funspot that weekend and
Dave never did anything about his concerns. That was when Hank got the 1091 and has never
had Bill or Steve even come close to beating it.
After looking more at Bill's game I realized he did use the mame technique which would have
been perfect to cheat. Not that anyone cared. Bill and Walter did alot to demonize me.
Bill told me long time ago that he never lies! What he means by that is that if he is forced to
potentially lie by saying it he just won't say anything. Bill has not talked to me in a decade
because he has to lie if he wants to keep the same story going.
Bill is my friend but were not close any longer. I have been upset for a long time about this
Exhibit A - 000174
bull**** he has pulled at the expense of the community. This needs to be dealt with and we
all need to move on to real achievements.
So i would like to see tg get Bill to shows us the Complete GAME of PACMAN to get an
official time and to see whether he followed the submission rules we all knew. He has been
****ting on Bill Bastable for not following the rules of submission on his game. How about
we check his? BECAUSE NO ONE VALIDATED IT! It was just put in the database and
press release sent out.
That is why in my doc i said Rick Fothergill was the first beginning of proper submissions
and should get credit for doing it first
02-06-2018, 02:00 PM
timmell
Quote:

This video was uploaded prior before I got control of the Twin Galaxies YouTube page. I
don't know who uploaded it from the TG staff. Sorry couldn't be more help.
02-06-2018, 02:12 PM
timmell
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayne richard

While were are checking into the facts about Billy Mitchell's video game history. How about
we get a referee to validate his Pacman score?!
Start a dispute! If you have the evidence.
And Everyone, Let's try to keep to keep this subject about the score of the 1.062. I know some
times other evidence to be referred to like the other scores that Donkey Kong Forums
removed. Also the score is Disputed. Not necessarily the gamer. But I understand connection
and assumptions are made and sometime hard to avoid.
02-06-2018, 02:13 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Start a dispute! If you have the evidence.
And Everyone, Let's try to keep to keep this subject about the score of the 1.062. I know some
times other evidence to be referred to like the other scores that Donkey Kong Forums
Exhibit A - 000175
removed. Also the score is Disputed. Not necessarily the gamer. But I understand connection
and assumptions are made and sometime hard to avoid.
Wouldn't something like faking scores to cheat the world record get you banned from
submitting scores and all of them deleted?
02-06-2018, 02:13 PM
Omnigamer
For everybody trying to watch through and see the transition stuff, there's no need to try and
watch them in slow-mo: you can move through YouTube videos frame-by-frame. Simply
pause the video, press [.] key for frame advance, and [,] key to rewind. Many other online
video players have similar functions, although often with different keys.
02-06-2018, 02:15 PM
xelnia
Quote:

The best section of that video is frame-by-frame around the 3:58.367 mark. An easy piece of
software to use for frame-by-frame analysis is VirtualDub. You can also frame advance a
YouTube video using the "," and "." keys, or even the "E" key in VLC. At that point you see
the older MAME-style drawing of the screen, mixed (because of YouTube's encoding) with a
future video frame (NOT an artifact resulting from MAME or PCB video generation). The
main reason I asked @timmell about that video is because there has been, and will likely
continue to be, insinuations that the footage used is somehow not original or manipulated.
That YouTube videos matches the other full footage available.
02-06-2018, 02:24 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

The best section of that video is frame-by-frame around the 3:58.367 mark. An easy piece of
software to use for frame-by-frame analysis is VirtualDub. You can also frame advance a
YouTube video using the "," and "." keys, or even the "E" key in VLC. At that point you see
the older MAME-style drawing of the screen, mixed (because of YouTube's encoding) with a
future video frame (NOT an artifact resulting from MAME or PCB video generation). The
main reason I asked @timmell about that video is because there has been, and will likely
continue to be, insinuations that the footage used is somehow not original or manipulated.
That YouTube videos matches the other full footage available.
Yep, that video is uploaded by twin galaxies and at 3:58 shows the mame rendering qualities.
02-06-2018, 03:13 PM
CWK
Exhibit A - 000176
The 7:00PM show is not working for me. Why am I not surprised
02-06-2018, 03:16 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWK

The 7:00PM show is not working for me. Why am I not surprised
It's working for me. No Billy yet though. Really looking forward to what he has to say.
02-06-2018, 03:23 PM
Snowflake
Its working for me, and these guys are literally boring and classless -- which is tough to do is
classless is normally not boring. They are actually more offensive then the banned one we
dare not name and somehow boring to boot. Truly offensive. They're just throwing out swears
and offensive statements with no creativy, no punchline, just stupid middle school stuff trying
to piss off mommy and daddy. We get it mommy and daddy dont love them and they want to
be to get attention. Just awful. Even worse than i suspcte. Well, gave billy a chance and he
proved just how classless he can be chosing this venue.
02-06-2018, 03:25 PM
q43
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWK

The 7:00PM show is not working for me.
I REALLY wish it wasn't working for me, I feel like I'm just torturing myself at this point.
Nothing can prepare you for how bad this is.
02-06-2018, 03:28 PM
datagod
This show is shockingly bad. The topics they are discussing in the first half of the show are
depraved and disgusting.
I don't know who decided to put Billy on this show, but I would be deeply ashamed if I were
them. They make Howard Stern look like Johnny Carson.
02-06-2018, 03:29 PM
CWK
Still not working oh well...28 minutes wasted...could've been worse could've been the whole 1
1/2 hrs
02-06-2018, 03:29 PM
RTM
Dwayne, great post, thanks for chiming in !!
One minor point...I resigned, I was never fired.

Exhibit A - 000177
Thanks for confirming where one of Bill's performances ended up...I was not 100% sure
about all of them.
02-06-2018, 03:30 PM
Ninglendo
I can barely stomach this. SIOTS would of been the proper platform for Billy to state his case.
I feel like we will learn nothing from this.
02-06-2018, 03:31 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

oh we learned something. we already knew billy was a cheater, now we see what sort of
person he is too.
02-06-2018, 03:31 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

My guess is that he dismisses this as a witch hunt and says it won't matter when he breaks the
world record on King of Kong 2
02-06-2018, 03:41 PM
Robert.F
wow what a chit show , man
02-06-2018, 03:41 PM
RomulusVonFlex
I am 90% sure these guys are making fun of billy and he doesn't realize it.
02-06-2018, 03:45 PM
Robert.F
i dont Bill can even hear the music
02-06-2018, 03:46 PM
Robert.F
Richie pls pls dont do it run run run
02-06-2018, 03:47 PM
Robert.F Exhibit A - 000178
WE ARE THE L>L>C>
02-06-2018, 03:47 PM
gavv
He and they are calling us the 'LLC' (Lonely Losers Club)... that's all you need to know to
show how this is going.
02-06-2018, 03:53 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Is he not going to address the faked scores on this interview?
02-06-2018, 03:59 PM
Snowflake
name caling with no substance im fine with name calling if its based on something.
sorry "pattycatty" as you call them I now respect more than you. its hard to say, but its true.
you've sunken that low billy.
does anymore even need to be seen? ban this guy already
02-06-2018, 04:00 PM
Ninglendo
I can't take this interview serious when the host calls @xelnia a snake and other names. The
host is obviously not a neutral party and name calling is downright disrespectful.
02-06-2018, 04:01 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

name caling with no substance im fine with name calling if its based on something.
sorry "pattycatty" as you call them I now respect more than you. its hard to say, but its true.
you've sunken that low billy.
does anymore even need to be seen? ban this guy already
He is just jumping around like crazy. He is refusing to answer the MAME question.
02-06-2018, 04:02 PM
Robert.F
ARGGGGGGGGGGG RGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
02-06-2018, 04:03 PM
gavv
He's bragging because of this he's getting more interview bookigns and movie deals
02-06-2018, 04:04 PM Exhibit A - 000179

IAmNerdJock
Quote:

So this is what you call "addressing this whole situation"?
02-06-2018, 04:06 PM
Robert.F
stick the fork in him
Maybe there building him up till he full blown , and THEN stick the fork in him with the
mame question :)
02-06-2018, 04:08 PM
RomulusVonFlex
There is video evidence of billy himself saying Pete wasn't there.
02-06-2018, 04:09 PM
Snowflake
i've lost track of all the lies i already caught him in, is anyone else able to keep up?
02-06-2018, 04:10 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

Is someone recording?
02-06-2018, 04:11 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I keep trying to cross reference stuff but I can't do it fast enough. Dude is lying at 60 mph.
02-06-2018, 04:15 PM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
ZOOM IN ON THIS WHAT THE SCORE
02-06-2018, 04:17 PM Exhibit A - 000180

Robert.F
"That guy a little dark skin" way to go billy
02-06-2018, 04:21 PM
Snowflake
Key slip up, Richie Knuckles came right out and said he'd help billy cover up a murder
(assuming/hoping thats metaphorical). So with Richie admitting on air he'd lie for billy can
we really trust anything Richie says?
02-06-2018, 04:29 PM
RomulusVonFlex
The video of Billy and his lawyer friend showing off the two donkey kong world records
shows it is MAME. It has nothing to do with faked doctored footage from angry trolls. That
evidence is directly from billy!!!!!
02-06-2018, 04:30 PM
thegamer1185
Well, I'm not going to speculate anything. Sounds to me like Billy is relying on TG to still be
in possession of the tapes to help prove his score. Guess that's what we are waiting on.
02-06-2018, 04:31 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Well, I'm not going to speculate anything. Sounds to me like Billy is relying on TG to still be
in possession of the tapes to help prove his score. Guess that's what we are waiting on.
The tapes billy had in his possession and was showing off as his world record were MAME
rendered Donkey Kong games. They were not faked by anyone and he is just stalling and
talking nonsense so he can save face.
02-06-2018, 04:31 PM
datagod
I transcribed most of the interview with Billy Mitchell. Apologies for errors.
======================================
Twin Galaxies is headquartered in Ottumwa Iowa.
- Billy Mitchell is now skyping in

- Billy Mitchell is an honest man with great hair
- he is handsome
- he is like Russel Crowe, not fat Russel Crowe, Gladiator
- get gets the job done!
- he would never cheat
Host: I am so happy you are here Billy. Your story is trending more than Superbowl.
Exhibit A - 000181
Billy: I am used to that kind of trending.
Host: You are a star! You need to get this story out. Nice tie.
Billy: (holds up his tie)

First things first. Are you ready? I have lots of text messages regarding this show.
Host: I said there would be no cursing. Billy has a hot sauce to worry about. No cursing Bill.
Billy: I'll do my best. Obviously this is an illustrious journey. The history began back in 1982,
ant the very first
gathering of of e-sports gaming. I dont' know what it was that grabbed me and brought me
there, but thank God I
went there. Througought the 80's, I had an awesome time. I went there, 16 players. It was
intimidating. I played
Donkey Kong.
Host: what did you do?
Billy: I dropped a quarter and pushed a button. I had a nemesis there. He got 190,000. I got
830,000 on my first man.
In 1986, the golden age of video games ended, and I had to go get a real job. I had my fun in
the 80's and I sat on it. Then came 1999.
20 years into the gaming industry, games became like cars.
I got a call from somebody who said he could beat me at Pac Man. He was my nemesis. He is
my friend now.
Host: (comments on his hair)
Billy: I went to funspot, in front of the media, and I did a perfect score. It was an explosion of
media that sent me to Japan! There were a few other people that went with me. When I came
back, that is when the camera crews came. That is when the documentary crews came out.
Something else was born in that era: LLC. The lonely losers club.
I'll tell you more about them later. I came back with a different attitude. It wasn't important for
me to come back and beat people in
an arcade. I wanted to be an advocate for competitive gaming. I wanted to be an ambassador.
I wanted to push competitive gaming.
Host: This is where the lonely loser club comes in.
Billy: The fact of the matter is that it is more satisfactory to participate in moves or
tournaments, bringing honor and recognition to the people working hard, and giving these
people credit. When you go to the conventions yes there is fun, yes there is hugs and
conversations but what I really do is push the competitive culture. We go to places to present
certificates to people with amazing feats. We give them recognition. Nolan Bushnell was put
on a trading card. #2. Ilike to remind him that he is #2.
Host: Billy was number 1!
Billy: There were so many people, thousands of people that contribute so much, they deserve
Exhibit A - 000182
the recognition. Pac Man Rick is a great guy, he deserves that recognition. Most recently we
went to a convention where Ernest Kleine was there.
Host: Speilburg movie!
Billy: So we went to award him with a certificate. Ernest gave me his book and told me that
he was inspired by me to write his book. That really hit me in the feels. John Glenn was the
first man in space. He said that every time he saw somebody follow in his footsteps, he gains
satisfaction that people were doing what he enoyed.
Host: No Bill Mitchell, no moon walks! NASA fuggettit
Billy: There became a greater inspiration than competitive gaming. The one exception that
kept getting put in my face was Donkey Kong. Richie Knucklez is the Authority in the
Donkey Kong world.
Host: Billy and Richie came to my studio and brought in their own Donkey Kong. I
personally saw their brilliance. I don't like Billy, who is simply trying to make the world a
better place -- he is getting taken down by these internet weasels. You don't have to say it,
because you are gracious.
Billy: They are the LLC.
Billy: We were in your studio, when Richie twisted my arm, threatened me, etc. to get me to
join with him and do the Kong Off.
Host: I went there. All the guys were there. Billy put up a huge score.
Billy: Hank Chien put up the high score. No killscreen, but Hank won.
Billy: Here is a story about Steve Weibe. I got approached by Disney. We want you to be in
Fix It Felix. I wanted to keep the machine, and I said that Steve should get to keep his
machine too. The lady from Disney agreed. Billy and Steve would play each other by
Satellite.
Host: Peter Dinklage was based off Billy Mitchell. Is there a documentary? Sequal? King of
Kong, Chasing Ghosts?
Billy: Last night I received an email with a movie offer. Today, I received an even bigger
offer from a name you would recognize. My friends and I are pondering this one. It is a
director you recognize.
Billy: However, as soon as we became in touch with the Kong Off, unfortunately, Richie kills
himself for these Kong Off's. My job there is to be the MC, to bring recognition and bring
deserved recognition to the players there. However, because I am there and I am me, I am
responsible to play. I pretty much play it once a year. There are other players, Vince Lemay.
There is a lot of camaraderie.
Billy: The friendships we create is far more valuable in the gaming world. The Kong Off is
very competitive.
Exhibit A - 000183
Host: Jermey Young (the villain) makes claims that Billy played on a home machine that
perhaps was tampered with. I shudder when I see this. I get sweaty and upset.
Billy: I have been asked to address a lot of things, and I will. The fact of the matter is that
from a very early time, I was extremely cautious. For example, I was in Twin Galaxies when I
got 800,000+ points on the first man. It was indisputable. I went to funspot, I went there to get
a perfect score. There was a crow, news people, people who became referees. I did it there, I
called it there, it was all awesome. It was a bullet proof environment.
Host: why all of a sudden would somebody with that kind of skill would fake a score? It don't
make sense, LLC.
Billy: I dont' think he is saying that. I have never been on the DKF or TG forum. Nobody has
ever seen me address the LLC. It was founded by PattyCat and Mr. Bigwig (Dwayne). I dont'
say their names on air, I don't want to give them satisfaction or recognition. When people you
know, people you consider you friends, when you keep getting kicked between the knees.
When that happens enough, I get irresponsible sometimes. I have not gone on any forums, I
will never go on the forums and roll in the mud. I will however answer questions from
authority, because I respect authority.
Host: (reading Jeremy Young's question) I understand this will not be a popular decision.
Billy: It sounds pretty popular. I just got two movie offers in two days. People say to me that
when people act this way, they constantly barrage the situation (speaking of PattyCat). I
explain it as it doesn't matter who you were for or against for president. Nobody can argue the
fact that Donald Trump got massive amounts of free press. The haters drove the engine.
Whether they like it or not, they constantly keep my name in front of everybody. Every single
week I get requests to be booked somewhere. I don't have any social media or anything.
Hosts: Are they jealous?
Billy: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (speaking of PattyCat). The fact of the matter, very

few people fall into that category. Most people are good people. I'll answer their questions.
Billy: So to describe the situation, or the problem, or the concern...in 2010 I did what I did at
the time what was far more than I though was necessary. They brought a Donkey Kong
machine in. They were always accommodating, and it was not the first time.
Host: They roll out the red carpet when Billy goes into an arcade.
Billy: (desribes a lot of people in attendance) Nobody hit the score you wanted on the first
attempt. The arcade was 5 miles away from Pete Bouvier's house. It was his introductory to
Boomer's Arcade. I was playing, I am locked on the screen. The game is being recorded.
Behind me 9 feet on a tripod is a camera getting a wide room coverage. When I had the good
fortune to get the score, and I turned around. People who shook my hand and saw me get the
score, Pete Bouvier was one of them. We went above and beyond what was required to make
sure we recorded what happened. Then we went to get something to eat. I was antagonized
that I should play now. I played again and again. I then played DK Junior. When I finished the
Exhibit A - 000184
score, Pete was NOT there. However, there is the game play, the room shot in the back, and
the fact of the matter is everybody is looking at the film, and everybody is questioning
whether it was arcade, or was it MAME.
Billy: I never played mame, I never played it in my home. It is an emulation, but it is NOT the
arcade. There are MAME world records, and the footage that Jeremy has shows MAME
I contend that if he gets the original tape, or if he gets the room shot, he will see what I am
saying is true. That original footage was given to twin galaxies. They should have it, they
must have it. The original tape shows the truth.
Jace Hall says that Twin Galaxies is going through a grown spurt. Walter is out of the
Country. He is kinda weird.
When you look at the tape, you will see Pete Bouvier. When you see the second board put
into the cabinet, it was an authentic DK Jr. Board. I got a call from somebody that said once
we review the tape, the room shot, we can simply zoom in on the DK screen and we can
absolutely see the game play.
Host: You will be vindicated!
Billy: Let me say it another way. I go to these shows. I have my place in history. I spread the
good will. With or without the tape, I'll still get the bookings and I will still have the fun. It
doesn't matter what they say. Another group of people will complain, but that means we will
get even more media coverage. I keep getting calls while talking. My phone is ringing.
(answers phone).
The lunch mob mentality has gotten hold of Todd Rogers. They said his score was not
possible. These so called experts took away his score. Now what you have emailed to you,
what was emailed to me, is the same scenario. They showed a video that has Todd's score
BEAT!
These so called experts will still complain.
Host: We have Richie, do we want to go to him?
Bill: Richie is really fired up.
Summary: the tapes showing Mame are from Dwayne, and Dwayne is a cheater. He cheated
on Nibbler, and he asked Richie to help him cheat on a mame tape in the past to make Twin
Galaxies look bad.
Exhibit A - 000185
I got tired of typing. Richie is very pumped. Big bombshell. King of Kong 2. The LLC
(Lonely Losers Club) will NOT be in the movie. They are irrelevent.
02-06-2018, 04:32 PM
Ninglendo
Spoiler Alert: TG doesn't have the Boomer's tape that he said they have. I will bet the farm he
blames current administration for losing it.
02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

The tapes billy had in his possession and was showing off as his world record were MAME
rendered Donkey Kong games. They were not faked by anyone and he is just stalling and
talking nonsense so he can save face.
Haha, yeah, common sense would suggest that Billy is the one who played the tapes. I'm not
arguing that at all. He said TG has the originals. If they do, it's going to be very open and shut
case one way or the other. Those tapes will prove who was there/wasn't there, maybe even a
score. Don't know, but yep, it's on TG again???to prove another score was possible?
02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
DadsGlasses
Billy said he doesn’t really even care if the real tape shows up and vindicates him.
02-06-2018, 04:36 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Dont worry @Jace Hall , billy lied about little things to big things. Lying just for the sake of
lying on things that dont matter. When he adds you to the list and lies about you losing the
tapes we'll know how to believe. Man that was just awful.
02-06-2018, 04:38 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Haha, yeah, common sense would suggest that Billy is the one who played the tapes. I'm not
arguing that at all. He said TG has the originals. If they do, it's going to be very open and shut
case one way or the other. Those tapes will prove who was there/wasn't there, maybe even a
score. Don't know, but yep, it's on TG again???to prove another score was possible?
Exhibit A - 000186
Also, was it Todd's Dragster score being beat, or another game. Might as well talk about that
while we wait for TG to go back in time. Hope they didn't misplace there flux capacitor.
02-06-2018, 04:54 PM
DadsGlasses
Always hard to trust a witness testimony that starts out with, “I would help this guy hide the
body if he murdered someone.”
02-06-2018, 05:08 PM
maximumsteve
Quote:

So this is what you call "addressing this whole situation"?
Well from the start of the middle portion of Bill talking about Peter at Boomers for his DK
game, TG having the original tape of the game and overhead view of the room and people
witnessing, and Richie calling in to mention info about Dwayne, that's when the addressing
was happening, although I will say that the start of the show was horrible and unlistenable
leading up to that point, lol. It comes down to does TG have the original tape of the game and
the room or not? If they do, then it is a open and shut case.
02-06-2018, 05:09 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

There is video evidence at the time of Billy saying peter from twin galaxies never showed up.
He said that himself back in the day and is now changing his story. Is Peter still alive or has
he passed away? If he has passed away I have just lost all respect for Billy as he has changed
his story after the man died.
02-06-2018, 05:09 PM
Robert.F
yeah it was a real eye opener Not , biil fill of it and hes draging Richie down with him
02-06-2018, 05:12 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000187
so billy in this interview that said pete saw it, or billy on the other video that said pete didnt
see it? Which billy is the liar and which billy is telling the truth. Oh wait, their both billy....
02-06-2018, 05:13 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

But this doesn’t address @timmell ‘s tapes that also show MAME. The two monitors that
Billy presents himself. Aren’t those his own tapes,
02-06-2018, 05:17 PM
DadsGlasses
Quote:

The footage in these tapes is also Mame. Aren’t these Billy’s own tapes?
02-06-2018, 05:20 PM
dwwnp
Couple of things to address from that interview...
1.) Richie suggests that Dwayne, as the source of the initial distribution of Billy's tapes, is
untrustworthy. Well, the truth is Dwayne, assuming Billy's play to represent the standard (as
Dwayne states in post #485), distributed those tapes for comparison with the tapes of Wiebe,
in effort to discredit Wiebe. None of us at the time really understood what 1.1m gameplay
looked like, so even when we recognized inconsistencies between the two playstyles we didn't
know which one was legit. Furthermore, I believe Dwayne was friends with Billy at the time
and I think Dwayne was a TG ref, so there's an easy explanation as to how he procured the
tapes.
Exhibit A - 000188
2.) Billy states there exists Boomer's footage from a room cam that will demonstrate he in fact
did play the game in question live. If this is proven to be the case, then suddenly Billy can
claim he wasn't aware he was playing on a MAME setup. Of course, this applies only to the
Boomer's score, and does not directly address why all of his 1m+ games were played on
MAME... Perhaps the same tech that set him up at Boomer's was responsible for his 1.047
and 1.051 configuration.
3.) But wait! We know from the Boomer's footage a Junior PCB was on hand, so if we can
demonstrate the Junior footage from the IVGHOF video to also be MAME-generated, then
we can debunk point (2). Additionally, for the 1.051 score allegedly performed at the broker's
convention, Billy went as far as sending his DK PCB off to Nintendo for verification... If
Billy had access to a Nintendo verified DK PCB, then why is his 1.051 score a MAME
performance?
4.) In the interview Billy essentially takes the stance that none of this matters, as he'll still get
asked to make publicity appearances regardless of the outcome. This may be true, which
makes it even more important to uncover the truth and prevent Billy from continuing to shape
his own narrative.
02-06-2018, 05:28 PM
The Evener
datagod, I hate to ask, but this is what Billy said?
Quote:

Billy: So to describe the situation, or the problem, or the concern...in 2010 I did what I did at
the time what was far more than I though was necessary. They brought a Donkey Kong
machine in. They were always accommodating, and it was not the first time.
Host: They roll out the red carpet when Billy goes into an arcade.
Billy: (desribes a lot of people in attendance) Nobody hit the score you wanted on the first
attempt. The arcade was 5 miles away from Pete Bouvier's house. It was his introductory to
Boomer's Arcade. I was playing, I am locked on the screen. The game is being recorded.
Behind me 9 feet on a tripod is a camera getting a wide room coverage. When I had the good
fortune to get the score, and I turned around. People who shook my hand and saw me get
the score, Pete Bouvier was one of them. We went above and beyond what was required to
make sure we recorded what happened. Then we went to get something to eat. I was
antagonized that I should play now. I played again and again. I then played DK Junior. When
I finished the score, Pete was NOT there. However, there is the game play, the room shot in
the back, and the fact of the matter is everybody is looking at the film, and everybody is
questioning whether it was arcade, or was it MAME.
Billy Mitchell 2018, meet Billy Mitchell 2010.
Billy Mitchell 2010 says Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record.
Billy Mitchell 2010 said, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to
say hi to is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"
Exhibit A - 000189
Billy Mitchell 2010, after the DK record, said: "There was a lot of hugs and kisses and
hooting and hollering, and from Twin Galaxies, Pete, was on the phone, and Pete was on his
way over - so I thought this will be great I'll introduce him to the manager and I really wanted
Twin Galaxies to have a strong foothold in south Florida with a place that is really friendly
and cooperative just like other places like Funspot. So Pete was on his way there, and I
turned and I said to the two Twin Galaxies people there, I said one more thing I got to take
care of, and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior.I said 'one more thing I got to take care
of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat because I think it
would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I right?…so I played
and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said 'Where's Pete?' then
Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it' - so that's the story about Pete."
02-06-2018, 05:32 PM
maximumsteve
Peter passed away last year, but you may have missed when he said that Peter was not there
for the DK JR. record part of the day that Bill did after the DK game. Peter was there and
congratulated him right after he finished the DK game but wasn't there after that during his
DK JR. game. Again if TG has the original tape of this game and the overhead shot of the
room and the cabinet, then it will show this exchange between them obviously. Do they have
the tape or not? That question is for Jace Hall to answer.
02-06-2018, 05:34 PM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

tapes.
performance?
Exhibit A - 000190
his own narrative.
Is the DK jr footage online anywhere?
02-06-2018, 05:35 PM
timmell
Take aways from Billy on that East Side Dave Show.
Pete Bouvier was not qualified to review a video game score. Let alone a Arcade submission.
If he is there great, but he always referred to David or some other ref. He tried to make TG a
business and understood the WR draw. No technical knowledge.
I also asked a friend on Facebook to ask Billy about my footage. If they are throwing Dwane
under the bus. What about my footage? If this altered or faked. I'm waiting on response. At
this moment. Does Billy even know about my video?
Billy presented those tapes at the IVGHOF as "his" performances. If he claims those are not
his, then he mislead the public back in 2010 at a event where he was inducted in the 1st ever
Video Game Hall of Fame. If today he claims those are not his, IMO then this score should be
removed based on him misleading the general public for " his big announcement." At a
historical gaming event.
02-06-2018, 05:42 PM
DadsGlasses
Devils advocate here: If Billy knows that Twin Galaxies does NOT have the tapes, then
saying that Tein Galaxies has the tapes is a great response. Put the burden on Twin Galaxies
knowing that they can’t deliver.
BUT........ then @timmell ‘s footage comes into play of the IVGHOF event.
02-06-2018, 05:45 PM
datagod
Quote:

I was typing as fast as I could, it was hard to keep up. I cannot answer the question without
re-watching the show. I likely have typos, please don't take my transcription as gospel.
02-06-2018, 05:48 PM
datagod
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000191
Pete B. was there for the Donkey Kong record, but no the Donkey Kong Jr. record, which was
set later (after supper). At least that is what I think Billy said in the interview.
02-06-2018, 05:54 PM
DadsGlasses
Billy also claimed that John Glenn was the “first man in space”. Clearly he wasn’t paying
attention when he heard John Glenn speak. Yuri Gagarin’s estate is not happy about this error.
02-06-2018, 05:56 PM
RTM
I read the transcript thanks to "Datagod's" post as I missed the show.
As expected these were softball questions...kind of like when a defense attorney is

questioning their client on the stand.
Looks like the "Blame it on Corcoran" defense has now become the "Blame it on TG"
defense...same defense, just a bit of a variant.
Dwayne may not be a cheerleader for Bill at this point, but he most certainly would not craft a
doctored performance unless I do now know Dwayne as well as I believe that I do.
I personally only saw Bill's 1.014M performance but I guarantee I did not check it for that
draw-sequence as outlined earlier in this thread as I did not know that MAME behaves
differently than the arcade original when it came to screen draw of the barrel stage. In fact this
thread is the first that I am reading of it, even going back to my recollection of every
discussion among my gaming peers of that era when 20+ of us were watching a replay of
Steve's 1.006M and a presentation of Bill's 1.047M at the cabins during an ACAM event over
a decade ago.
02-06-2018, 05:59 PM
Robert.F
With all the outrage and disbelief tonight over billy and his cast characters a blatant attempt to
sway us all really any surprise? ; skewed facts and smock screen are not going to help you
billy I`m truly sorry
02-06-2018, 06:00 PM
Riatoju
The show was a disaster, I didn't even watch it.
02-06-2018, 06:26 PM
The Evener
Quote:

Peter passed away last year, but you may have missed when he said that Peter was not there
for the DK JR. record part of the day that Bill did after the DK game. Peter was there and
congratulated him right after he finished the DK game but wasn't there after that during his
DK JR. game. Again if TG has the original tape of this game and the overhead shot of the
room and the cabinet, then it will show this exchange between them obviously. Do they have
the tape or not? That question is for Jace Hall to answer. Exhibit A - 000192
Jace doesn't need a fictional game-day tape to answer that question, because we can all watch
a real tape from Robert Childs where Billy said Pete wasn't there; we also have another tape
where Billy ribbed Pete publicly at his IVGHOF world record announcement about missing
both the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior records. The video link has been shared a
few times in the course of this dispute.
It would appear that Billy's disdain for on-line forums hasn't served him well in preparing for
his on-air interview tonight.
02-06-2018, 06:46 PM
Jace Hall
One assertion that seems to be getting made is that the footage from the allegedly leaked tapes
matches the gameplay performance footage used in the KOK. Is that the case?
It would be helpful if someone could produce clear evidence that the footage shown in the
leaked tapes is the same as what is in the KOK film.
Perhaps a screenshot side-by-side comparison placed in the dispute thread for public scrutiny
and evaluation.
Does anyone have that available?
02-06-2018, 06:52 PM
maximumsteve
Quote:

tapes.
performance?
Exhibit A - 000193
his own narrative.
Its been confirmed that the Boomers Donkey Kong arcade cabinet/machine which Billy used
is still alive and well. A Miami arcade collector / gamer (Neil Hernandez) owns the SAME
EXACT machine. The machine was verified by numerous arcade collectors in Freeplay
Florida about 4 years ago who compared the markings on the cabinet with the one on film.
Plus the person who Neil bought it from turned out to be the same arcade operator Billy spoke
about who lent him the machine. I believe the machine should be inspected for any extra
holes or modifications to see if a MAME computer was used at one point in the machine.
02-06-2018, 06:58 PM
Neilhdz
Quote:

Hi everyone ,
Yes I am the owner of that very same machine. It's nickname is "The Enzo Machine". It's
named after its previous owner.
Anyone who feels they would like to inspect my machine is more than welcome to come to
Miami FL. and inspect it. I've owned it for 4+ years and that machine does not have any PC
MAME things related inside of it.
The same exact machine Robbie Lakeman DK champ and Wes Copeland DK Player both
have played on the same exact machine in Freeplay Florida.
02-06-2018, 07:07 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

footage.
Podcast?), here.
gameplay?
I think this is what you were looking for @Jace Hall
02-06-2018, 07:08 PM
thegamer1185 Exhibit A - 000194
Quote:

Billy Mitchell 2018, meet Billy Mitchell 2010.
Billy Mitchell 2010 says Pete Bouvier was not in attendance for the DK record.
Billy Mitchell 2010 said, after achieving the DK high score: "Another person we're hoping to
say hi to is Pete - Pete from Twin Galaxies, he's on his way here"
Billy Mitchell 2010, after the DK record, said: "There was a lot of hugs and kisses and
hooting and hollering, and from Twin Galaxies, Pete, was on the phone, and Pete was on his
way over - so I thought this will be great I'll introduce him to the manager and I really wanted
Twin Galaxies to have a strong foothold in south Florida with a place that is really friendly
and cooperative just like other places like Funspot. So Pete was on his way there, and I
turned and I said to the two Twin Galaxies people there, I said one more thing I got to take
care of, and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior.I said 'one more thing I got to take care
of,' and I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior. And I thought it was neat because I think it
would have been the first time Pete would have seen a world record, am I right?…so I played
and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through before I said 'Where's Pete?' then
Todd said 'oh, he's not going to be able to make it' - so that's the story about Pete."
Billy said in the interview that Pete was there for the DK run, but not the DK Jr run. I
remember that part very clearly. So Pete was there for the DK and shoot his hand, they went
to eat, Billy was pressured to play more instead of the next day, he got the DKJR score and
Pete was not there for it. That's what he said in the interview. So Pete was there for one, not
both.
02-06-2018, 07:09 PM
Robert.F
its over man give it up
02-06-2018, 07:12 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

The show was a disaster, I didn't even watch it.
This doesn't even make sense. How do you know if you didn't watch it?
02-06-2018, 07:14 PM
Riatoju


Because everyone I know who supports Billy thought is was disgusting. I think he lost alot of
supporters today.
02-06-2018, 07:14 PM
Dwayne Richard
richie suggesting i asked him for help?
The summer of king of kong's release was the first year richie was at funspot as far as i know.
We went out for dinner, gary v and his wife, dave nelson and jenn sweet, richie and myself.
We were talking about king of kong. I had been released for my protests about king of kong
scores and acceptances. I said at the dinner table that someone should submit a bogus dk score
to see if the referees could catch it. That is my experience with Richie. I think he is unstable
so i avoid him. Nothing more nothing less.
I don't know anything about MAME that is why i asked Rick if he would help in a possible
scenario to see if the new referees could catch it and then let them know. He wanted no part
and i never pushed any harder. That was it because Hank had me convinced it had already
been done.
The other thing is duplication is on thing how would i set up as direct feed tape with no
sound. I have to know everything. I'm smart but i don't know everything.
The man vs snake guys were riding my ass about this. Hank told me not to do anything at the
time when dave ignored his evidence. I still have our emails. He told me is i pushed it forward
at that time he would deny everything. So i kept quiet about it. It wasn't until the film guys
pissed me off that i showed him my communication with hank. I would have exposed bill not
me for doing something wrong. These stupid people find it easier to accept a lie then believe
the truth.
I care about the integrity of the scoreboard. In classic games there is alot of my efforts there.
Who the **** cheats at nibbler?! I had no idea what was wrong with my board. They got
experts to find out and were surprised I didn't know? wtf They had a hard time excepting that.
Why would i knowing submit a score which is so easy to see that something is wrong? I never
hid anything i gave them my tapes and boards. They had more info from people and never
explained why they were asking me certain questions. They were looking for answers i didn't
know or have in the doc.
Tim knows exactly why i started playing again. There was an article by Josh Bearman that
pissed us both off because his facts were wrong about nibbler holding a billion and not rolling
over. Josh called me to fact check and i told him it rolls over but walter told him it didn't. I
played to show walter had no idea wtf he was talking about. Everyone listens to him and he is
clueless. TIm didn't have a machine yet and man vs snake had not started filming. That was
the only reason i started playing nibbler again.
02-06-2018, 07:15 PM
Snowflake
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000196
because even the people involved are no in panic mode promising they'll be a better follow up
and already trying to backtrack
02-06-2018, 07:15 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Billy said in the interview that Pete was there for the DK run, but not the DK Jr run. I
remember that part very clearly. So Pete was there for the DK and shoot his hand, they went
to eat, Billy was pressured to play more instead of the next day, he got the DKJR score and
Pete was not there for it. That's what he said in the interview. So Pete was there for one, not
both.
Time to get the dragonballs and wish him back to life. Or we could use them to end this
dispute, that would be awesome too.
02-06-2018, 07:18 PM
maxim_recoil
Quote:

You don't need to make any holes or modifications to use a MAME computer in a Donkey
Kong cabinet, plus such an inspection wouldn't prove anything either way anyway.
02-06-2018, 07:30 PM
dwwnp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilhdz

Hi everyone ,
Yes I am the owner of that very same machine. It's nickname is "The Enzo Machine". It's
named after its previous owner.
Anyone who feels they would like to inspect my machine is more than welcome to come to
Miami FL. and inspect it. I've owned it for 4+ years and that machine does not have any PC
MAME things related inside of it.
The same exact machine Robbie Lakeman DK champ and Wes Copeland DK Player both
have played on the same exact machine in Freeplay Florida.
Testimony the machine used at Boomer's was not running MAME, and thereby testimony the
videos being shown by Billy at the IVGHOF were not captured from the Boomer's machine.
Thank you. Billy is lying. Case closed.

Exhibit A - 000197
02-06-2018, 07:45 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)
This issue was brought up years ago by others and touched upon earlier in this thread, and
most recently by @Robert.F , so it’s timely to revisit it.
In light of research from @xelnia identifying MAME game recordings, and the ability to
cross-reference Robert Childs’ “DK world record” video with the Billy Mitchell video
statement recorded by @Tim mel at the IVGHOF in 2010, one can definitively confirm that
the footage at Boomer’s arcade was staged for the sole purpose of creating a visual
narrative of a live public performance on a DK arcade machine to accompany the
MAME play-throughs. Additionally, we can confirm there was no DK world record set
that day since the DK cabinet on site only had the Donkey Kong Junior PCB installed.
We know because Robert Childs accidently exposes the ruse in his video.
"Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record"
https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc
“We have a new donkey kong junior record July, 2010”

https://youtu.be/UvdrEgk2l6g
“Announcement of Billy Mitchell's dual DK and DKJR records”

In outlining the potential content of a dispute review, Dave Haskett wrote, “If there is
evidence [a game] did not happen, as opposed to being impossible, that would belong here.” I
am including this analysis in the spirit of that criterion.
Robert’s description for the Donkey Kong video reads: "After breaking the DK world record
billy walks away from the game with 2 men left and another 5 or so boards to go before the
kill screen. Its simply Billy being Billy."
What many of us found strange is when Billy said in the video, "when the records came, they
came," which cast doubt on whether Billy was referring to DK alone, or DK and DK Junior as
"records." This confusion was compounded by a separate Boomer's video intended to
document the moments following Billy’s DK Junior world record; Robert rushes in after he
was at home sleeping and only Todd is still present. It didn't make chronological sense that
there were two videos documenting the time after the DK Junior record, particularly with
Robert's absence and return to the arcade.
What's clear now is that the "moments after breaking donkey kong record" video was indeed
intended to document the DK record alone. When viewing this video in tandem with Billy’s
statement at the IVGHOF, we can identify a key timeline marker – Pete Bouvier – to firmly
establish the intended sequence of the videos.
In Robert’s DK video, Billy remarks that he’s hoping to speak to Pete from Twin Galaxies,
who is apparently on his way down to the arcade following word of the new world record.
In the IVGHOF presentation video, Billy recounts again that he was waiting on Pete
following his DK record, and he learned that Pete wouldn’t make it after all while playing
Donkey Kong Junior.
With clear confirmation of the timeline – Billy looking to talk to Pete after his DK record - we
Exhibit A - 000198
can emphatically point to the Robert Childs DK video as “evidence” created to support a false
narrative of live game play only moments after Billy achieved a DK record.
More damning still - despite best efforts to keep the camera point away from the DK cabinet,
the sheer impossibility of a DK record run is accidentally exposed at the 2:02 mark of
Robert’s DK video as he rapidly pans the camera past Billy. A small corner of DK screen is
mistakenly caught on film, showing not the expected Donkey Kong game screen, but Donkey
Kong Junior.
https://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=2m2s (When the video loads, pause and frame advance by

hitting the ‘.’ key.)
Attachment 49710
The exclusive presence of a DK Junior PCB in the Donkey Kong cabinet is corroborated by
Robert’s PCB swap video, which is intended to document a DK / DK Junior board swap, but
actually shows Robert pulling out and replacing the same DK Junior PCB.
What originally appeared to be an bizarre vanity project now has a comprehensive

explanation – the videos were designed to “document” Billy’s visit to Boomers and obfuscate
the MAME-based origins of two records he passed off as occurring on original hardware
during a public arcade visit. Further, the video also confirms that an original Donkey Kong
PCB was not present in the arcade machine in the moments immediately following the
claimed DK performance, rendering any claim of a live arcade DK record a logistical
impossibility.
02-06-2018, 07:56 PM
Robert.F
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk
02-06-2018, 07:58 PM
timmell
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

and evaluation.
I don't know if that is case for those scores.

This Dispute is for 1,062,800. Here is the frame on loading of the graphics for the pie stage.
Side by Side comparison. Everyone can make the call for themselves.
Attachment 49709
Exhibit A - 000199
Billy's Video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc

This video is slowed and shows the capture date of the video from my video camera as I
filmed this in 2010.
Chris Gleed Direct Capture. Pie level load. https://youtu.be/L5araM3eIuo
There is other evidence so please go back to Page 19. The information above is what I can
provide based on my experience and know how.
02-06-2018, 08:34 PM
The Evener
Quote:

and evaluation.
Here are two videos:
"Billy Mitchell vs. Steve Wiebe: Donkey Kong" - from "The King of Kong: A Fistful of
Quarters" DVD Bonus Material
https://youtu.be/jkwECcfqX_I?t=2m13s
"Billy Mitchell 1,047,200 Donkey Kong [From King of Kong]"
https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk?t=58m32s
I selected times on both videos to start on the rivets board at 391500. You can use the first
video as an official KoK document to skip through and compare to the "leaked" video. The
KoK video will not show transitions, but it will confirm that the "leaked" video is the same
game play, thereby permitting confidence in evaluating transitions on the "leaked" video.
02-06-2018, 08:37 PM
dwwnp
There's also this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk#t=2h21m50s
VS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zhMlFOyZvQ#t=48m50s
02-06-2018, 09:18 PM Exhibit A - 000200

The Evener
2 Attachment(s)
Here is a photo from the "leaked" KoK tape, and one from KoK both at 989,400 points.
Attachment 49717
Attachment 49718
02-06-2018, 09:53 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

It's starting to make my head spin how many different disputes of footage and witnesses and
hearsay there is. We need someone obsessive to make a timeline flowchart with each pertinent
'event' that includes the disputes and who was caught lying or changing their story.
I mean as far as I've seen, the side-by-side photos are a slam-dunk. I keep thinking the line
Bill Paxton gave in Aliens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZmL1sck6LE
So glad you didn't use "Game over man! Game over!" Still so good, but over used. I always
laugh when he says "Maybe you should put her in charge." Referring to Newt surviving on
her own. Or sometimes, it could work if you really wanted to be blunt "How do I get out of
this chicken fit outfit?"
02-06-2018, 09:53 PM
The Evener
1 Attachment(s)
Adding another set of photos to provide a second point of comparison from the KoK movie
(top) and "leaked" video (bottom). Both at 998,400 points.
Attachment 49719
02-06-2018, 09:59 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

So glad you didn't use "Game over man! Game over!" Still so good, but over used. I always
laugh when he says "Maybe you should put her in charge." Referring to Newt surviving on
her own. Or sometimes, it could work if you really wanted to be blunt "How do I get out of
this chicken fit outfit?"
And auto correct ruins yet another posts. Either way, about the dispute. I was afraid that
interview was going to play out 1 of 3 ways. It was either all Billy's favor (hugely it turns
out), all against him, or actually some good interviewing would happen. He did address why
the dispute was occurring because of the MAME/Arcade differences. His lack luster attitude
toward the whole thing was kind of disappointing. OK, I get it. You get older and start caring
less about things, but his DK scores are what made the guy. You could at least pretend you
will be disappointed. He wasn't at all. Maybe the guy always has a "hang loose and hanging
Exhibit A - 000201
ten" attitude and never lets anything bother him. He is right, I'm sure he will be getting
contacted more than ever, but for the wrong reasons. Any big time interviewer or movie guy
will have their facts straight before doing anything major with him. If they don't, they are only
hurting their product. Then again, people like some really stupid ****.
02-06-2018, 11:24 PM
Ninglendo
I can verify somethings that have been brought up after having a community discussion
tonight. @falcor781 was there at Funspot when Billy presented his tape for the KoK movie.
If he wants to chime in on this I'm sure he is willing to. Anyways, from what Falcor781 told
us all and what I have seen from the tape presented later we had the exact same occurrences.
Meaning, video errors and fuzziness were in the exact same spot. I can also verify that what
Billy said about TG having the infamous Boomer's crowd tape is a complete lie. Most of the
TG tapes are from Tom Votava and other gamers that have nothing to do with the dispute.
According to what I was told there was 7 boxes of tapes none that have any Billy tapes. This
is important because I don't want Billy or anyone else coming down on TG and saying they
simply lost the tape which is an excuse I have seen before. Another thing I had gathered is
that Billy straight up lied about the meaningless stuff like being the #1 TG card. While this
isn't completely untrue the way he brought it up was in the fashion of "Would their be any
other?". Paul Zimmerman shared that honor with Billy. Billy knows this as well and it isn't a
fact you would simply forget given the ego of Billy.
02-06-2018, 11:30 PM
Ninglendo
1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 49720
Here is the shared #1 card.
02-07-2018, 05:51 AM
IAmNerdJock
Is there more footage anywhere of Billy's DK Jr run? From glancing at the following
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc it looks like it loads in pieces
02-07-2018, 06:07 AM
datagod
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

We need a sad face button. "Like" and "Thank" options are not enough.
Attachment 49722
02-07-2018, 06:14 AM
Snowflake
all i'm saying is, its not atari and time period is off so ron didnt destroy the tapes. they didnt
get sent to some ref in texas to melt in his locker. so tg had the tapes right? now they're gone?
Exhibit A - 000202
and tg had someone on the inside willing to destroy evidence for billy....
02-07-2018, 06:59 AM
bh_
Hi, the users over at the Donkey Kong Forum asked that I cross post here.
The smash scores in the 1,050,000 WR are very suspicious. So far I've only examined barrel
stages. It'd be nice to transcribe the 1,047,200 WR but the video quality is atrocious. I'll
donate $50 to Child's Play if anyone can provide a complete transcript of either game
including points, timestamp, type and stage for each non-fixed value smash.
Quote:
After seeing Wes Copeland's argument against Mitchell's run, I decided to

figure out just how unusual it is.
I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from
barrel stages on Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my spreadsheet with
timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious quality
problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from digit
rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate,
extend or amend this transcript.
What I found is that the score distribution in the 1.05m run is significantly
shifted toward the high range. There are fourteen 300 pt blue barrel
smashes and thirty-four 800 pt smashes. On average his blue barrel
smashes were worth 570 points and his flame smashes 477 points.
Between these two types of smashes he scored 78,500 points over his
runs. The odds of this happening fairly are about 1 in 360 (99.73th
percentile), or about once per 450 hours of near perfect play.
I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor

stages will push the odds into absurd heights.
Thanks goes to @othercriteria for double checking my math, and Wes

Copeland and the folks on #mame for patiently answering my questions.
02-07-2018, 08:26 AM
RTM
Quote:

all i'm saying is, its not atari and time period is off so ron didnt destroy the tapes. they didnt
get sent to some ref in texas to melt in his locker. so tg had the tapes right? now they're gone?
and tg had someone on the inside willing to destroy evidence for billy....
RTM REPLY - I'll answer in parts...
Exhibit A - 000203
-> Ron would have never seen a Billy performance. He was gone before Billy submitted the
1.014M (in response to Steve's 1.006M) within the July-August 2014 range. No previous
Billy performance as far as DK or DKJr was ever submitted to TG during my administration
Apr/01 up to that point. I cannot speak as to pre-Apr/01.
-> I had Billy's 1.014M tape as part of my comparative article for the two simultaneous 1M
submissions to TG. The 1.014M is either currently in the possession of Dwayne Richard as
part of his documentary effort, or was sent to Shawn Carm in Maine (via Brian Kuh driving it
up on Nov/07)
-> I am aware that Bill's 1.050M performance was circulated among key TG advisors shortly
after its completion as part of a validation process. I was not one of the recipients but I know
of one of the recipients for sure as I just received confirmation yesterday evening. Who the
other recipients are I will try to find out.
-> To the best of my recollection, I have never, EVER seen or heard of a Billy DK Jr
performance ever being submitted on tape for TG validation at any point. The latest
"reclaiming" WR performance was likely validated by on-premise TG staffers "live" but I do
not recall hearing of a tape being distributed to anyone for co-validation.
02-07-2018, 08:33 AM
RTM
I would add that no one working with me during my administration at TG...myself

included...would willfully destroy a performance, though I can in no way speak as to staffers
hired after my departure.
Dwayne was, if I remember correctly, never a formal TG staffer. I am not 100% certain as it
has been 11+ years since I left TG, but I do not believe that he was even a "referee-at-large"
(like Shawn Cram). I believe that at best he was consulted on technical issues on an as-
neededs basis though he was never a formally recognized TG technical advisor such as Greg
Erway was.
********************
I saved Steve Wiebe's 947K, 985K, 999.5K as well as 1.006M even after his 1.049M was
received. They were TG intellectual and physical property and I would have had no right to
throw them out.
This is why I am so offended and annoyed at what Corcoran most likely did back in the day
with respect to his cache of 2600 tapes he was acting as custodian for on behalf of TG.
02-07-2018, 08:37 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

I would add that no one working with me during my administration at TG...myself
included...would willfully destroy a performance, though I can in no way speak as to staffers
hired after my departure.
Dwayne was, if I remember correctly, never a formal TG staffer. I am not 100% certain as it
has been 11+ years since I left TG, but I do not believe that he was even a "referee-at-large"
Exhibit A - 000204
(like Shawn Cram). I believe that at best he was consulted on technical issues on an as-
neededs basis though he was never a formally recognized TG technical advisor such as Greg
Erway was.
********************
I saved Steve Wiebe's 947K, 985K, 999.5K as well as 1.006M even after his 1.049M was
received. They were TG intellectual and physical property and I would have had no right to
throw them out.
This is why I am so offended and annoyed at what Corcoran most likely did back in the day
with respect to his cache of 2600 tapes he was acting as custodian for on behalf of TG.
ah if you think i was implying it was you let me elaborate, on the low class show that billy did
his interview on, he got richie to say how much he trusts and loves billy and that if billy
murdered someone he'd help dispose of the body. Sure sounded to me like he said he'd help
billy destroy evidence of wrong doing. its on the record now, and i call no backsies. The
admission of willingnes to help bily destroy evidence should not be ignored.
02-07-2018, 08:39 AM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

-> To the best of my recollection, I have never, EVER seen or heard of a Billy DK Jr
performance ever being submitted on tape for TG validation at any point. The latest
"reclaiming" WR performance was likely validated by on-premise TG staffers "live" but I do
not recall hearing of a tape being distributed to anyone for co-validation.
So is the DK Jr on the left monitor being played in this video the recording of his DK Jr
record?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc
If so, it loads just like MAME
02-07-2018, 08:47 AM
RTM
Quote:

So is the DK Jr on the left monitor being played in this video the recording of his DK Jr
record?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHSoe74TDc
If so, it loads just like MAME
RTM REPLY - I would not know, myself...in all the years that I have known Billy I have
only seen him play DK in person just once at an early ACAM event in the 1999-2001 range.
Exhibit A - 000205
He MIGHT have played during the Mall of America event in 2001 but if so then I missed that
as I was likely working on one of the many sub-events taking place within the staging area
(most likely the Marvel-vs-Capcom 2 event)
02-07-2018, 08:55 AM
RTM
Quote:

ah if you think i was implying it was you let me elaborate, on the low class show that billy did
his interview on, he got richie to say how much he trusts and loves billy and that if billy
murdered someone he'd help dispose of the body. Sure sounded to me like he said he'd help
billy destroy evidence of wrong doing. its on the record now, and i call no backsies. The
admission of willingnes to help bily destroy evidence should not be ignored.
RTM REPLY - Richie I do not trust for a number of reasons. He definitely did not have
custody of the 1.014M tape and I do not believe he had primary custody of the 1.05M tape
either. As for any higher performance, that I would not know.
Has anyone tried to get comments from Walter on these ongoing developments ? I have to
imagine that Walter would not only have some personal comments and recollections to
provide which would be useful, but I believe that he should feel obligated to explain his own
involvement...or stated lack thereof...with respect to Bill's many performances.
Walter was the "referee" who entered Bill's much-vaunted "Pacman" score into the TG
database as well as his earliest scores on both DK and DK Jr. Walter would have also entered
Bill's midwest event DK score in the 930K-range.
Walter also entered...which I immediately deleted...the 1.047M DK score revealed at ACAM

2005. Post-1.047M I was no longer part of TG so have no idea who would have entered Bill's
subseqeuent DK or DK Jr scores into the TG database.
But someone needs to ask the hardball question to Walter...
-> did he have ANY knowledge or personal suspicion that Bill might have been using MAME
performances masquerading as arcade performances when submitting to TG ?
And that's just for starters.
02-07-2018, 09:18 AM
Julius Reigns
Quote:

RTM REPLY - I would not know, myself...in all the years that I have known Billy I have
only seen him play DK in person just once at an early ACAM event in the 1999-2001 range.
He MIGHT have played during the Mall of America event in 2001 but if so then I missed that
as I was likely working on one of the many sub-events taking place within the staging area
(most likely the Marvel-vs-Capcom 2 event)
Exhibit A - 000206
in the most respectful way: Robert, if you do not know, please stop clouding up the evidence
field with what you think could or would have happened. Some of your posts and
recollections are invaluable, but please, wait until this type of evidence is required if it will be
at all. I can't thank you enough for you sharing your accounts and memories of what's
happened. Right now, we are simply looking at a clear name video done by Billy Mitchell. If
that falls through, the dispute will stay open and we will have a chance to present evidences
like this, but at the moment I feel these types of posts are just confusing and muddying up the
dead-ringer evidence we have. If someone asks you a question I think by all means answer it.
But these types of posts just don't seem to make sense to me and as of now, seem to only
serve to give more long written material people need to read through with no real substance as
compared to the packet that was assembled and put forth. I'm not a moderator and I can't tell
you what to do, this is just a friendly request to wait and let's see where the clear cut evidence
goes before we get into all this.
Thanks for understanding hopefully.
02-07-2018, 10:45 AM
Mitch Mitchell
Quote:

Devils advocate here: If Billy knows that Twin Galaxies does NOT have the tapes, then
saying that Tein Galaxies has the tapes is a great response. Put the burden on Twin Galaxies
knowing that they can’t deliver.
BUT........ then @timmell ‘s footage comes into play of the IVGHOF event.
Precisely my thoughts, he attempts to hinge it on a tape he (potentially) knows doesn't exist;

however at his event announcement with Sanders he showed both games playing side by side,
clearly supplied by himself and might not know that being recorded would catch him up.
He might then position those tapes at the announcement must of been switched without his
knowledge (insanity) and mention Mr. Awrsome was there maybe he did it; on and on rolling
with the punches, compounding lies for wiggle room.
02-07-2018, 11:43 AM
expandedidea
1 Attachment(s)
Different board sets...
I have heard the argument recently on other venues that differing revisions of the board could
cause the girders to be drawn as they do on mame. Without getting into technical details on
this, there is no reason at all why this would ever be the case. The way that the video ram is
read whilst simultaneously drawing the raster image is the same across all of the DK board
revisions.
For reference, I have attached a screenshot from a TKG-3 4 stack board that shows the
characteristics that the more common TKG-4 2 board stacks shown in this thread. Notice how
the ladders are the top are still shown to be partially drawn, despite the fact that the video was
not recorded at a very high frame rate. To sum it up, the revision of the PCB has nothing to do
with the theory used by nintendo when designing these boards. And the "brand of the
components" or anything like that certainly has nothing to do with changing a fundamental
characteristic of the design of these boards.
Exhibit A - 000207
Referenced video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI0qS8ce0ug&t=270s (used "," and "."

to skip frame by frame on youtube)
Attachment 49732
02-07-2018, 11:57 AM
RTM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Reigns

in the most respectful way: Robert, if you do not know, please stop clouding up the evidence
field with what you think could or would have happened. Some of your posts and
recollections are invaluable, but please, wait until this type of evidence is required if it will be
at all. I can't thank you enough for you sharing your accounts and memories of what's
happened. Right now, we are simply looking at a clear name video done by Billy Mitchell. If
that falls through, the dispute will stay open and we will have a chance to present evidences
like this, but at the moment I feel these types of posts are just confusing and muddying up the
dead-ringer evidence we have. If someone asks you a question I think by all means answer it.
But these types of posts just don't seem to make sense to me and as of now, seem to only
serve to give more long written material people need to read through with no real substance as
compared to the packet that was assembled and put forth. I'm not a moderator and I can't tell
you what to do, this is just a friendly request to wait and let's see where the clear cut evidence
goes before we get into all this.
Thanks for understanding hopefully.
RTM REPLY - there were a few comments made about non-specific former TG staffers who
may/may not have seen this of that. My posts were largely not intended to "cloud up"
anything...to be honest in many respects they are to clear either myself or those under my
tenure at the time from culpability as finger-pointing is in part underway.
02-07-2018, 12:12 PM
Marcade
The edited version (THANK GOD) is now available on YouTube for those who missed the
interview.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3TCiCiMWs
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwmQl_AUfkQ
Carry on...
02-07-2018, 12:12 PM
Snowflake
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

may/may not have seen this of that. My posts were largely not intendedExhibit
to "cloudAup"
- 000208
speaking of finger pointing, Joel west, who has worked on Billy’s recent pr nightmare has
actually said he knows of cheating but keeps it secret and encourages us to keep cheating
secret explaining that’s somehow the course of wisdom. I don’t know if he knows of billy
cheating per se or others but the cheating he does know of and cover up is surely worth an
investigation whether billy is that cheat or not Attachment 49733Attachment 49733
02-07-2018, 12:25 PM
Julius Reigns
Quote:

may/may not have seen this of that. My posts were largely not intended to "cloud up"
I understand. My point was I thought you quit Twin Galaxies in 2006. His question was about
a video from 2010 of DKJR. It just seems like I find my self reading long drawn out posts that
are just how YOU FEEL what MIGHT have POSSIBLY happened interlaced with a bunch of
recollections you feel are interesting (most, if not all of them are to me as a reader) but hold
no bearing on the dispute and I feel only muddy the amount of material someone must read in
this dispute to find factual evidence. The reason I make sure to read them is because some of
your post are invaluable to this dispute, but others I think could be answered like this one. "I
don't know, I left Twin Galaxies in 2006, this video is from 2010. Maybe someone else can
confirm it."
But at this point I'll let you go on, as I am now distracting from the dispute. Have a good one.
02-07-2018, 01:10 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Reigns

I understand. My point was I thought you quit Twin Galaxies in 2006. His question was about
a video from 2010 of DKJR. It just seems like I find my self reading long drawn out posts that
are just how YOU FEEL what MIGHT have POSSIBLY happened interlaced with a bunch of
recollections you feel are interesting (most, if not all of them are to me as a reader) but hold
no bearing on the dispute and I feel only muddy the amount of material someone must read in
this dispute to find factual evidence. The reason I make sure to read them is because some of
your post are invaluable to this dispute, but others I think could be answered like this one. "I
don't know, I left Twin Galaxies in 2006, this video is from 2010. Maybe someone else can
confirm it."
But at this point I'll let you go on, as I am now distracting from the dispute. Have a good one.
The dispute is simple, even on the tapes billy played to the crowd displaying his "world
record", it was done on mame. Billy isn't a million point player.
02-07-2018, 01:20 PM
rotunda Exhibit A - 000209
I have to agree.
Billy seems like a nice guy but you can't knock the evidence. This is clearly a MAME score
with possible INP manipulation and maybe even save state usage with the VHS being
paused/resumed.
The fact there is no sound always made me wonder about this score. I remember by default
some MAME versions had incorrect sounds or missing sounds which you could add on later
MAME versions or it was "patched" at some point. Not exactly sure when. By default the
jump sound and a few others were missing. I bet Billy at the time couldn't "patch" this issue
so just went with no sound.
Again, I'm no Billy hater I like the guy but you can't ignore this score is really, really dodgy.
Everything about it is dodgy and questionable.
With the recent evidence on top... You literally can't ignore the fact this is MAME.
Going with an accept.
02-07-2018, 01:38 PM
DadsGlasses
I am absolutely not making excuses for cheaters. At all.
I said during and after the Dragster dispute that I thought Todd was a kid that got caught up in
a wave that overtook him. Once in, he didn’t really know how to get out. (And didn’t want
out.)
With Billy, things seem to be similar. (Yet different). Seems like he got caught up in this idea
that he was the lead ambassador for Arcade video gaming. Walter seems to have stoked this
notion. The industry was swelling and there was finally some money to be made.
Unfortunately this all happened at a time when Billy had reached his peak. Competitors were
rising up and surpassing his skill level. Based on the recent interview, Billy seems to feel that
his role as Ambassador and MC was equally as important as his role as a player. He doesn’t
seem to have much technical know how when it comes to Arcade hardware or software. He
found a way to produce tapes that showed a game with the scores he needed. (Or rather I
believe he found someone else that was capable of producing the tapes.)
Now, after all this time, he continues to believe that the role he plays is of vital importance to
the gaming community. More important than Twin Galaxies, or Donkey Kong Forum, or any
other gaming entity.
I know this post post does not add any evidence to the dispute. Mods can certainly delete if
this is seen as clutter. My purpose was to point out that as a member of the gaming
community, I stand behind the importance of Twin Galaxies, Donkey Kong Forums, and other
entities like them. No individual player is more important than the integrity of the community
as a whole. Maybe that was the case at one point in time. It is no longer.
02-07-2018, 02:05 PM
Mitch Mitchell
Something Nagging Me
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000210

I am absolutely not making excuses for cheaters. At all.
I said during and after the Dragster dispute that I thought Todd was a kid that got caught up in
a wave that overtook him. Once in, he didn’t really know how to get out. (And didn’t want
out.)
With Billy, things seem to be similar. (Yet different). Seems like he got caught up in this idea
that he was the lead ambassador for Arcade video gaming. Walter seems to have stoked this
notion. The industry was swelling and there was finally some money to be made.
Unfortunately this all happened at a time when Billy had reached his peak. Competitors were
rising up and surpassing his skill level. Based on the recent interview, Billy seems to feel that
his role as Ambassador and MC was equally as important as his role as a player. He doesn’t
seem to have much technical know how when it comes to Arcade hardware or software. He
found a way to produce tapes that showed a game with the scores he needed. (Or rather I
believe he found someone else that was capable of producing the tapes.)
Now, after all this time, he continues to believe that the role he plays is of vital importance to
the gaming community. More important than Twin Galaxies, or Donkey Kong Forum, or any
other gaming entity.
I know this post post does not add any evidence to the dispute. Mods can certainly delete if
this is seen as clutter. My purpose was to point out that as a member of the gaming
community, I stand behind the importance of Twin Galaxies, Donkey Kong Forums, and other
entities like them. No individual player is more important than the integrity of the community
as a whole. Maybe that was the case at one point in time. It is no longer.
He has indeed said multiple times that he has no idea how PCB's work and has no tech
knowledge and always goes above and beyond to mention this time and time again (like
during the dkjr board swap clip in this dispute); and even during the East Side Dave Show
yesterday he added he doesn't have MAME at home and seemed to be treating it with the
same purported ignorance of its workings as arcade hardware.
Its been naggin at me that he's been trying to sell his hardware ignorance to actually hide the
fact that he does indeed have the knowledge thereof, you'd never suspect someone of
hardware or software manipulation who always acts clueless about it, but thats a well
established tell in poker; when someone is selling you a situation the truth is usually the
opposite.
Now all this MAME footage scomes to light and it could be save stated and many runs
threaded together; that sure sounds like someone who has more knowledge about it than he
lets on.
02-07-2018, 02:36 PM
DadsGlasses
Don’t get me wrong, I think he knows enough to know what he has. Mame generates
fakenscore performances. I doubt he knows how to create them on his own.
But it no matter what he knows, I think he believes that “Billy Mitchell” matters more to
gaming than fake scores do. That’s the tragedy.
Quote:
Exhibit A - 000211
Originally Posted by Mitch Mitchell

He has indeed said multiple times that he has no idea how PCB's work and has no tech
knowledge and always goes above and beyond to mention this time and time again (like
during the dkjr board swap clip in this dispute); and even during the East Side Dave Show
yesterday he added he doesn't have MAME at home and seemed to be treating it with the
same purported ignorance of its workings as arcade hardware.
Its been naggin at me that he's been trying to sell his hardware ignorance to actually hide the
fact that he does indeed have the knowledge thereof, you'd never suspect someone of
hardware or software manipulation who always acts clueless about it, but thats a well
established tell in poker; when someone is selling you a situation the truth is usually the
opposite.
Now all this MAME footage scomes to light and it could be save stated and many runs
threaded together; that sure sounds like someone who has more knowledge about it than he
lets on.
02-07-2018, 02:43 PM
Snowflake
Oh no you mean billy might not be legit. Guess I gotta throw away all my games he was the
only reason I played. Somebody warn Nintendo employees they’re all about to get laid off.
Whatever will we do gaming can never survive without those amazing performances of his.
02-07-2018, 04:23 PM
thegamer1185
So I have been going rounds, literally rounds, with Joel West, Eric Tessel who absolutely
refuse the evidence presented in this case on Facebook. I have asked numerous times for them
to show us what they have. Every response has been screen captures don't prove 100% that
Billy used MAME. I then have to ask the same questions again, telling them to show their
evidence on TG/DKF to those who think this score isn't possible. I then get answers like I'm
jealous or can I prove he didn't do it. It's been going on for 2 days now. I personally don't
care. I'm watching South Park and uploading scores TG while doing this. I am as non-biased
as anyone regarding this score. I have tried to get Billy's supporters to come here and dispute
the evidence against Billy or show evidence he did it. Nothing, at all.
I'm stating for the record, I don't know Billy, I don't know Todd Rogers. I have treated each
dispute as non-biased as possible. One side has dominated the evidence while the other has
literally done nothing but talk with no evidence. I have tried. @admin staff , @Jace Hall , if
you haven't seen some of these threads on Facebook you should go take a look. Not as
evidence for or against Billy, but just as a quick point of none of Billy's friends will be
coming to TG to dispute the evidence. So if your giving them time, your wasting your time.
I'm incredibly stubborn at times, but it's with logic behind it. This is beyond me. They seem to
worship Billy so much, talk of his abilities, back him 100%, yet they are too good to come
here to defend him? I do not compute.
Just want to let you all know, if you guys have a score that is disputed or need me to back you
on something, I will. I will use what I know, either against or in favor, to help clear things. I
would never use another source to do so. I'm not trying to be all high and mighty, but god
damn. This is beyond insanity.
I only have one last thing to say to any of Billy's supporters who are taking this stuff of
TG/DKF. If one of your friends/family was on trial for murder, and you had evidence they
Exhibit A - 000212
were innocent, would you take that evidence to the trial? Or would you let a friend explain
your story/post it to another source expecting it to affect the trial? This is literally insane. No
other word for it. It's insanity.
Again, I have tried asking questions off site for evidence. Nothing. I have stated it probably
15 times now where all could see to come to TG/DKF to dispute the evidence. Nothing. There
may have been a few of you and for that, Thank you. My god thank you. Whether you
provided any evidence or just to give your 2 cents on the matter, thank you.
02-07-2018, 05:43 PM
maxim_recoil
Quote:

The fact there is no sound always made me wonder about this score. I remember by default
some MAME versions had incorrect sounds or missing sounds which you could add on later
MAME versions or it was "patched" at some point. Not exactly sure when. By default the
jump sound and a few others were missing. I bet Billy at the time couldn't "patch" this issue
so just went with no sound.
The sounds in MAME DK have never been right. The older versions of MAME used sound
samples for the analog sounds (if you didn't download those samples, put them in the right
folder, and make sure they were enabled in the settings, DK would simply be missing the
analog sounds during gameplay), which didn't sound right at all, and the newer versions of
MAME emulate the analog sounds rather than use samples, and it still sounds wrong, just in a
different way. So regardless of which version of MAME someone used, and regardless of
whether they had the sound samples or not, it could always be identified as MAME just by
listening to it. There are only two possible solutions for the would-be cheater in this case: (1)
record all of the DK sounds from a real PCB and then go in and manually dub them into the
video, all at the perfect locations, like a Hollywood Foley artist might do, or (2) don't record
any audio at all and hope no one thinks there's anything fishy about that. Conveniently (or
inconveniently, depending on your perspective), the tape in question has no sound.
Do any of Mitchell's taped 1 million+ point scores have sound? I would think that a video
would have been required by TG rules to have sound back then. Does anyone know what the
specific rules for taped submissions were at the time? Sound is a key element of a video game
which can help the adjudicator verify that the PCB is authentic and in proper working order.
For example, the arcade game that I know best is Super Punch-Out. If I were to adjudicate
someone's tape, I could tell if it was played on MAME just from the incorrect sound effect of
Dragon Chan's kick, not to mention the audio being slightly out of sync.
02-07-2018, 05:48 PM
thegamer1185
Finally saw an answer regarding evidence. Joel West is going to show his evidence tomorrow
night. He said this, I'm just reporting it here. I wish it was shown here, but I doubt it will be.
Hope I'm wrong.
02-07-2018, 05:50 PM
Snowflake
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegamer1185 Exhibit A - 000213

Finally saw an answer regarding evidence. Joel West is going to show his evidence tomorrow
night. He said this, I'm just reporting it here. I wish it was shown here, but I doubt it will be.
Hope I'm wrong.
we also heard the bomb would drop last night
i predict "tune in next week when i'll tell you to tune in next week for evidence"
02-07-2018, 05:52 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

we also heard the bomb would drop last night
i predict "tune in next week when i'll tell you to tune in next week for evidence"
That's all we can do until this is closed I guess.
02-07-2018, 06:03 PM
rotunda
Quote:
So I have been going rounds, literally rounds, with Joel West, Eric Tessel who absolutely
refuse the evidence presented in this case on Facebook. I have asked numerous times for them
to show us what they have. Every response has been screen captures don't prove 100% that
Billy used MAME. I then have to ask the same questions again, telling them to show their
evidence on TG/DKF to those who think this score isn't possible. I then get answers like I'm
jealous or can I prove he didn't do it. It's been going on for 2 days now. I personally don't
care. I'm watching South Park and uploading scores TG while doing this. I am as non-biased
as anyone regarding this score. I have tried to get Billy's supporters to come here and dispute
the evidence against Billy or show evidence he did it. Nothing, at all.
That just says to me, as a non-biased TG member that they have no evidence to show. If i had
a lifeline for someone i admired/supported I would be there in a flash.
I'm sorry but this evidence is pretty conclusive... I guess it's just hard to accept if you support
someone and/or admire them as much as Billy's followers appear to. I would love to be
proved wrong but I'm saying this is a MAME run hence my prompt acceptance of this dispute
on my previous post. You just can't deny the evidence against Billy is very strong at this
stage.
I hope they do show up and provide me with a reason to change my vote though, as I hate to
see any score removed to be quite honest.
But like you say... I can't see that happening as I really can't see how anyone can alter the
facts here.
02-07-2018, 06:09 PM
zallard1
So, this case seems pretty open and shut in my eyes; seems like that's the case for many, many
other people too. I'm guessing Twin Galaxies is looking for the tape thatExhibit
Billy mentioned at
A - 000214
the moment? Or did that that come up dry? I legit don't know, I haven't caught up with all the
happenings around this yet.
As it stands right now, it is indisputable that those 3 runs that Billy has presented to Twin
Galaxies (1047200, 1050200, and 1062800) are played in MAME.
People suggesting that Billy can prove this score by performing a run today are completely
missing the point of the dispute. Him doing a run right now that gets 1 million+ points does
not change the proven fact that his runs are fabricated. Not. One. Bit. Stop suggesting it; it has
no actual impact on the dispute at hand.
The other argument I'm seeing, and it really seems to be the only possible realistic argument
that's even left to grasp onto for Billy's side at the moment, is that the runs that Billy
submitted were not actually Billy's runs.
My question, how on earth could Billy possibly let that happen, not just once, but three
"known" times? You would think that at least one of these times, he would, oh I don't know,
WATCH his own runs before passing them off as his own. Even at the IVGHOF event with
his 1.062 million game running in the background, you're telling me that he didn't realize that
the game playing wasn't his? Not once with it running for people to spectate? Not even for 5
seconds? Not any time before that? Really???
And then there's the issue of why. Why would Dwayne go to such preposterous lengths to
even do this? If he had a falling out with Billy and supposedly swapped the tapes with tool
assisted MAME footage, then why has this not been brought up until 2018? Wouldn't
Dwayne's motive be to expose him for this if that was his master plan? This theory assumes
that Dwayne swapped the tapes himself, meaning he obviously would know that those were
all MAME runs for years and years by this point. If he knew about the tapes being swapped
for so long, then why would he just do nothing the entire time? It makes zero sense from a
motive perspective in my eyes. Does anyone have any logical takes on this to where this
makes sense to me? I'd appreciate even the slightest bit of extra context here just in case I'm
missing something here.
This theory also assumes that the MAME footage was so authentic and convincing looking
that Billy would never have noticed that any of his tapes were different, let alone that it wasn't
his play at all. I don't think some of the people accusing Dwayne over Billy actually realize
how incredibly difficult and time consuming it is to create a tool assisted run in the first place,
even for a run that's on the order of 10-20 minutes! These Donkey Kong runs are supposed to
be 2 and a half hours or longer each?! Imagine someone hating someone else so much that
they go through this incredible, unbelievable task of recreating each of these behemoths
completely fueled by hate. The amount of work that would go into that would be incredible,
and something that would probably be a feat in and of itself.
Now imagine after this inconceivable amount of work on doing those 3 fabricated MAME
runs, transferring them over to VHS's that are mocked up to look like the original ones that
Billy supposedly had, and successfully swapping them without Billy detecting anything,
Dwayne does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING after that.
Occam's razor is a concept that some people at TG should consider sometime.
Maybe Billy played his 3 runs on MAME hardware by playing on 3 different arcade machines
strategically planted to disqualify his records years later. Maybe Billy just really got obscene
luck that has never been matched by Donkey Kong players in any subsequent record runs to
this day. Or Billy got all 3 of these runs legitimately on original Donkey Kong machines, but
Exhibit A - 000215
then Dwayne spent an incredible amount of time making 3 separate optimized Donkey Kong
tool assisted runs in MAME for Billy that are identical in length and score and movement
decisions in every possible facet of each score such that Billy wouldn't ever notice the
difference. Maybe Dwayne concocted the ultimate plan for revenge by swapping these tapes
and never calling it out, but waited for someone to randomly stumble upon extremely vague
evidence that you can only see for one frame on any given video so that Billy's scores would
be removed from Twin Galaxies and his reputation to be forever disgraced.
Or maybe Billy Mitchell just cheated because he wanted the Donkey Kong world record.
02-07-2018, 06:14 PM
Chaco Chicken
Hey folks, I’m anarchaeologist who is taking a break from the ancient world andpursuing an
anthropological look at a very specific demographic ofmodern culture (a primatologist might
make a gorilla pun given thedispute). I’m taking a deep dive into famous frauds,
cheats,charlatans, fakes, and liars. I’ve also been an arcade and Atari2600 video gamer since
my childhood so the dispute thread concerningDragster/Todd Rogers was of particular interest
to me. That spurredme to investigate the video game and e-sport venue as well.
Analyzing thecollected data, I’ve seen the emergence of a specific pattern ofdeceptive
behavior that exceeds simple mendacity. It seemsa certain class of fraud or cheater has to be
equally flamboyant andaggressive in their defense. For comparison take a look at Uri
Gellerthe “psychic”, Frank Dux of Bloodsport infamy, MLB player RyanBraun, and former
president Richard Nixon to name a few of the morefamous. They all follow a this distinct and
uncanny pattern ofsubsequent post-accusatory/post-revelatory dishonesty regardless ofthe
subject matter. Todd Rogers and Billy Mitchell are adhering tothis pattern.
I’ve watched theKing of Kong some years ago and became familiar with Billy Mitchell.I
recently observed several of Billy’s interviews both new and oldto try and gauge his overall
pattern of conduct.
The case against thescore:

1) All of Mitchell’savailable DK footage of his 1 million + scores is indisputably
MAMErendered as illustrated by Xelnia (That MAME constructslevels/screens differently
than the arcade PCB is or was presumablynot widely known). The lack of sound in available
footage supportsthis as well as earlier MAME often had out of sync sound and music.
2) There are noexisting documented live competition event records that indicateMitchell has
passed the threshold of 1 million points.
3) The means bywhich Mitchell’s 2010-Boomer’s score was tallied suggestsidiosyncratic

circumstances. As Wes Copeland commented earlier, whilecertainly being an excellent player,
Mitchell had not developed thetactical acumen necessary to exceed 1 million points.
4) Footage of the2010 score shows deceptive behavior in a false pcb switch and then
adeliberate effort to block the view of the score total. Furtherdetails of the event seem to vary
widely by the telling includingciting the possible but unclear presence of a deceased person in
Exhibit A - 000216
abrazen and odious attempt at an appeal to authority.
5) The appearance ofreferee verification of 2010 event by Todd Rogers and/or Morning
Dove(?). Roger’s participation here is largely unhelpful to Mitchell’soverall claims as Roger’s
numerous falsifications have now beenremoved and he has received a ban from Twin
Galaxies.
6) The claim,possibly corroborated, by a now disgraced TG referee that Mitchell’sscore was

inappropriately verified. This is the weakest point butdoes establish a consistency in the
deceptive behavior on Mitchell’spart.
Given Mitchell’spersonality, I expected he would display the double down effect andcontest
this dispute. He did not disappoint. But as frauds are wantto do he did not directly address the
evidence but attacked theaccusers. He sent at least one proxy here to obfuscate who issued
adefense with yet another appeal to authority. He has expressedcontempt for Twin Galaxies
and its members suggesting they aremotivated by envy.
Mitchell also arguedthat any mention of him positive or negative will benefit him in thelong
run which is a telling marker in my fraud conduct chain. Hewill avoid any specifics and attack
the weakest part of the disputebeing the mention of former referee Patrick Patterson as
lackingcredibility. He will continue to plead ignorance on technical details(this probably is
generally true; I suspect he deemed himself quiteclever in thinking that a VHS tape of MAME
rendered game would beindistinguishable from an arcade PCB)
If he follows thegeneral model, he will very likely, as Dadsglasses posited, divertblame to TG

for having “lost the originals” and decry negligenceas custodians of vital evidence and
suggest a conspiracy to defamehim. He will probably issue vague legal threats or more likely
have aproxy suggest he do so. Other proxies and loyalists will continue toobfuscate by
providing irrelevant or misleading information asevidence and they will begin character
assassination on membersquestioning the validity of Mitchell’s scores. He will point to allthe
his professed witnesses that saw the performance. If confrontedhe will continue to tout his
fame and question the motivations of TG.
Mitchell will notaccept fault or admit cheating under any circumstances. Once thelarger
community understands the evidence against and realizes thatit is irrefutable I anticipate a
Mitchell loyalist will take blamefor providing the wrong tapes or Robert Childs will imply
that hedeceived Mitchell by having him play a MAME rather than an arcadePCB.
I applaud TwinGalaxies for trying to improve the integrity of the scoreboard. Tothat end, with
the evidence presented and the conduct of Mitchell, aremoval of his score and a ban similar to
what Todd Rogers receivedwould be consistent and appropriate.
02-07-2018, 06:45 PM
starcrytas
I never noticed how MAME renders the screen compared to the Arcade machine for DK until
now.
Given the evidence presented, I vote yes on this dispute.
Exhibit A - 000217
02-07-2018, 06:57 PM
rotunda
I'm sorry? I must of missed that part...? Did i read that right... Billy/his supporters are saying
the tape(s) are now not his/not him playing? HAHA!!
Ok that's just ridiculous I'm sorry...
Anyone who's seen the KoK knows how sure he was of this tape. The moment he hands it
over to Doris Self (RIP) at the airport.. You can see he's pretty damn certain about the tape
and states "I've had this for all too long" or something a long those lines. Then tells Brian Kuh
to guard it with his life... I'm sorry but a tape that important isn't just going to get switched out
without notice.
Even if it did, Billy was questioned about the poor picture quality and tape displaying lines on
the left side of the screen at times by Walter Day. Billy clearly stated that the tape was a copy
so he was obviously aware of the tapes contents in great detail... or wait let me guess...
Someone duplicated that too, right?
I know the KoK was edited to make Billy look like a bad guy and all that but seriously... you
can't edit those parts. It's clear as day he knew what he had and that it was his performance.
This is looking like damage control at this stage. In fact to make up such excuses like these is
just making you look more guilty of cheating by using MAME. To me anyway.
Again, I like Billy but come on... seriously?
02-07-2018, 07:12 PM
RTM
Quote:

Even if it did, Billy was questioned about the poor picture quality and tape displaying lines on
the left side of the screen at times by Walter Day. Billy clearly stated that the tape was a copy
so he was obviously aware of the tapes contents in great detail... or wait let me guess...
Someone duplicated that too, right?
RTM REPLY - Not quite.
The first third of that tape was initially shown to a group of 20+ people and no one there
questioned anything about the performance. THe second third was shown the following night
in my cabin to a much smaller group including myself, Walter, one of the film crew (Ross or
Josh Tuttle, if I remember correctly) and several other trusted classic arcade gaming names in
the hobby in attendance that event.
We had to point out to Walter that the quality of the tape was unacceptable especially as it
reached certain points i the game, most notably the roll-over, and at that time he agreed with
us that the tape could not be accepted.
This is why I was so annoyed when he went against our recommendations and accepted the
score anyway, which I later removed.
Exhibit A - 000218
But don't just believe me...read it in Walter's own words here -

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-was-Accepted
02-07-2018, 07:13 PM
Chaco Chicken
Sorry about that previous post, I copied it from a document and didn't check the spaces so if
you choose to read it enjoy the challenge of parseing it out.
Let me add that I don't know Billy Mitchell and I have only vague feelings about him outside
of his cheating. He could be quite a decent person and very well liked. He probably has good
friends and has been a good friend. However many of the greatest cheats and frauds are very
decent people aside from their charlatanism. So that has no real bearing on the substance of
this dispute. If any of his close friends read these forums after a year or more of data
gathering and study, let me say continuing to defend this score in light of the evidence will
not benefit Billy Mitchell in the long run especially given the context of competitive gaming.
02-07-2018, 07:27 PM
rotunda
Quote:

RTM REPLY - Not quite.
The first third of that tape was initially shown to a group of 20+ people and no one there
questioned anything about the performance. THe second third was shown the following night
in my cabin to a much smaller group including myself, Walter, one of the film crew (Ross or
Josh Tuttle, if I remember correctly) and several other trusted classic arcade gaming names in
the hobby in attendance that event.
We had to point out to Walter that the quality of the tape was unacceptable especially as it
reached certain points i the game, most notably the roll-over, and at that time he agreed with
us that the tape could not be accepted.
This is why I was so annoyed when he went against our recommendations and accepted the
score anyway, which I later removed.
But don't just believe me...read it in Walter's own words here -

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-was-Accepted
Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who
questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.
Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus
allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that
tape without any doubt.
Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only
enforces that he knew what he had.
02-07-2018, 08:28 PM
RTM
Exhibit A - 000219
Quote:

Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who
questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.
Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus
allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that
tape without any doubt.
Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only
enforces that he knew what he had.
RTM REPLY - it is my personal recollection that the original was indeed sent by Billy
several months after that ACAM event. There is a strong likelihood that it was even sent
directly to myself for viewing, or it was sent to Walter who forwarded it to me...it's been
awhile so I cannot be sure. However, no one back in the day would have thought to compare
the way the screens are drawn arcade-vs-MAME in viewing the tape.
02-07-2018, 08:29 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
Update:
While it is somewhat duplicative to include evidence that has already been presented, we
wanted to provide a sample of some of the work we are doing to confirm both the MAME and
Arcade rasterization assertions that have been previously made in this dispute thread.
We feel that working to specifically confirm this element is key since it sits as one of the
technical foundations of the dispute claim.
Below you will see footage of an original Donkey Kong arcade display output as well as a
Donkey Kong MAME Version 0.145 display output (we are in process looking at all MAME
profiles we feel could be relevant for internal reasons.)
This footage was shot with a 4K camera capable of capturing 120fps.
We shot each game twice. Once at 120fps and once at 60fps.
The results of our testing so far have been unilaterally confirming the assertions made
regarding MAME rasterization, regardless of MAME version used, as being distinct and
discernible from original Arcade rasterization in all instances.
(You can slowly drag the control bar maker to view frame-by-frame)
Exhibit A - 000220
Donkey Kong Original Arcade 120fps Capture
Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options
SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x
Fullscreen
This is a modal window.
Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.
Text
Color White Transparency Opaque
Background
Color Black Transparency Opaque
Exhibit A - 000221
Donkey Kong Original Arcade 60fps Capture
Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options
SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x
Fullscreen
Text
Background
Exhibit A - 000222
Donkey Kong MAME version 0.145 120fps Capture
Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options
SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x
Fullscreen
Text
Background
Exhibit A - 000223
Donkey Kong MAME version 0.145 60fps Capture
Play Video
Play
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Remaining Time0:00
Mute
Playback Options
SPEED
2x
1.5x
1.25x
normal, selected
0.5x
Fullscreen
Text
Background
Exhibit A - 000224
We continue to investigate this dispute.
02-07-2018, 08:42 PM
The Christian Pac-Man
The following is what I posted on my facebook page.

check the link for images and videos.
"The first image is a comparison of a screenshot from a game that Hank Chien was
playing (left) and a screenshot of the barrel board being drawn in a later version of
MAME (right). The very top left ladder is the 8th one to be drawn. The 2nd ladder
from the left on the 2nd level (from the bottom) is the 11th one to be drawn. Notice in
Hank's game that the bottom ladder in question has already been drawn, but is also
partially obscured by an artifact of the monitor, notice the diagonal dark strip running
from the top left to the bottom right. The top left ladder has also been drawn but it
does not appear due to how the monitor is captured in connection with its scan
orientation and refresh rate.A recording of a direct feed to VHS doesn't detail how the
screen is drawn, no more than examining frames in MAME does. Such a recording
that is played back on a TV that has been placed on its side that is copied via
camcorder may capture any monitor artifacts displayed by the TV (ie. horizontal scroll
becomes vertical moving either right to left (if turned clockwise) or left to right (if
counter-clockwise).
The timer is drawn first, but as I have pointed out by simply recording the playback of
a youtube video with my phone (recording of a recording), the barrels at the top left
may indeed show up first. Things may appear in chunks when examining a 1/30th of
a sec frame capture, but the elements of the board are not drawn that way whether
by arcade OR MAME.
Since the frames of the actual youtube video shows both the barrels and the timer
appearing simultaneously, I was accused of creating a fake video.
That is complete and utter nonsense.
The first video is my phone recording (30fps) of a few seconds of Robbie Lakeman’s
1.23 million game. The next pic is a screen shot where the video is paused to show
the barrels, even though the timer does not appear. The timer IS indeed there, yet it
does not appear for the same reason the top left ladder did not appear in the
screenshot from Hank’s game.
It should also be noted that Donkey Kong has also been drawn in Robbie’s example,
yet you only see a portion as the rest is obscured by a similar dark strip running
diagonally from top left to bottom right.
The last video is the barrel board being drawn in slow motion.
If the recording device and playback source are similar, then one may detect a more
consistent synchronization in how each board is displayed as one examines it frame
by frame. The fact that not every frame sequence is the same illustrates less than
perfect consistency. The same is true of both arcade and MAME. I have played back
frames on MAME 106 and had different results.
Until the original recordings and accompanying footage of Billy’s gameplay are
examined, one should not be so hasty in a rush to judgement since the purported
evidence comes from uploaded recordings of 2nd or 3rd generation copies and this
doesn’t prove what some are saying that it does. No one to my knowledge has taken
the time to duplicate the process involved in the recording of Billy's games using
similar equipment and technology. This would involve recording a direct feed from an
original DK cabinet to VHS via converter. Another VHS copy would then have to be
made (at the very least) and then played back on a TV through a VCR and recorded
by a camcorder similar to that used by Dwayne Richard. The results of such a project
Exhibit A - 000225
would go far to either establishing or eliminating the disputed claim that such
gameplay could not be from an original machine.
Remember it is incumbent on those making claims of fraud or cheating to back up
those claims. These recent claims have been challenged and disputed, showing the
so-called evidence fails in supporting such claims.
Unless there is conclusive evidence forthcoming that Billy Mitchell or his associates
cheated or did what they are being accused of, I would suggest a measure of
restraint and decorum.
Thank you"
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....04596409565773
02-07-2018, 08:47 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a progression of 5 frames from MAME 194. If one were to go solely on this
kind of presentation, you would believe that the left ladders were drawn first in this
version of MAME, when they certainly are not. Check out my previous video where I
show MAME 135 drawing in slow motion. I have compared that with MAME 194 and
they draw the board in the same way.Attachment 49749
02-07-2018, 09:02 PM
I would suggest duplicating this using the methods which are claimed to have been used for
Billy's games. This certainly would not involve a 4K piece of equipment filming at 120fps.
Most recorders of the time would only be capturing at 30 fps and the playback of vcrs would
be the same.
02-07-2018, 09:07 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man

I would suggest duplicating this using the methods which are claimed to have been used for
Billy's games. This certainly would not involve a 4K piece of equipment filming at 120fps.
Most recorders of the time would only be capturing at 30 fps and the playback of vcrs would
be the same.
Isn't that the reason no one back them could detect such video anomalies though? With the
ability to capture frames faster, you can see better how things where done. So TG using a
higher speed camera to capture a cabinets picture vs MAME picture would be way more
accurate wouldn't? I'm since that's how I would interpret it. If it's slower, it would mean more
things could be left out. I'm only bringing this up because I just happened to watch an animal
show and it was capturing a how fast a hummingbird's wings move in very high speed
cameras shows so much more than slower cameras. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I
understand your point for accuracy from the technology back in the day, but how does using a
more advanced camera be a negative?
02-07-2018, 09:34 PM
TWIN GALAXIES
2 Attachment(s)
Exhibit A - 000226
Update:
Attached are complete frame-by-frame shot sequences of both Original Arcade and MAME
.145 versions of Donkey Kong.
They are both shot at 120fps equally under the same environmental conditions and camera.
The high speed capture ensures that no display information can be missed when recording
screens displaying 60fps or 59.94.
The results appears to confirm the rasterization differential between MAME and arcade
versions definitively.
Attachment 49750
Attachment 49751
02-07-2018, 09:45 PM
francoisadt
Question to those posting evidence: If a gamer player on a cabinet and do not know MAME is
inside, can such a person be held accountable? Nowadays one do get PCB with MAME
running with the ROMS so if one do not look carefully it can appear from the "side| as a
normal PCB?
In this case, what if the player did not know it was MAME inside? If someone else do provide
a cabinet for game play and present it as an original machine but is not? The person providing
the machine was not honest and not the gamer platying the game?
02-07-2018, 09:46 PM
Jace Hall
Quote:

Isn't that the reason no one back them could detect such video anomalies though? With the
ability to capture frames faster, you can see better how things where done. So TG using a
higher speed camera to capture a cabinets picture vs MAME picture would be way more
accurate wouldn't? I'm since that's how I would interpret it. If it's slower, it would mean more
things could be left out. I'm only bringing this up because I just happened to watch an animal
show and it was capturing a how fast a hummingbird's wings move in very high speed
cameras shows so much more than slower cameras. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I
understand your point for accuracy from the technology back in the day, but how does using a
more advanced camera be a negative?
You are correct. Higher speed captures more information.
02-07-2018, 09:49 PM
Tessman
Quote:
The first video is my phone recording (30fps) of a few seconds of Robbie Lakeman’s
1.23 million game. The next pic is a screen shot where the video is paused to show
the barrels, even though the timer does not appear. The timer IS Exhibit
indeed there, yet it
A - 000227
does not appear for the same reason the top left ladder did not appear in the
screenshot from Hank’s game...
Recordings at 30 FPS are unfortunately difficult to take seriously in an analysis.
If the playback is 60 FPS, or 59.94 FPS, then a 30 FPS recording of that output is skipping at
least 1 frame between it's own capture, and will often be skipping 2 frames. As such, 30 FPS
footage does not accurately represent the output of the source screen since it's literally
skipping frames of output.
In Twin Galaxies own post, they mention they are recording at 120 FPS, as to make sure none
of the source output data is lost or otherwise obscured.
02-07-2018, 09:57 PM
Snowflake
I think what the christain pacman is trying to imply, is that the video of the day would've been
lower speed, and that somehow that lower speed could make a recording of arcade appear to
be a recording of mame. I dont follow this logic one bit. I agree a lower quality video may
make it impossible to decipher mame from arcade, but I dont see how anyting in his analysis
explains how the recording of billy's arcade could possibly be an arcade recording that was
just made to appear to be mame from the copy of the copy
02-07-2018, 09:59 PM
thegamer1185
Just throwing this out there, I've got 2 VCRs in my house if anybody wants to use them for
some experiments? Or you could just go to salvation army and buy one.
02-07-2018, 10:01 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

normal PCB?
I would think it's on the player more than anything. I would not call it cheating on the player
at all, but it is solely on the player to know what they are playing. That's my opinion. If
someone says the safety is on and hands you a gun and you pull the trigger and it fires, they
aren't blaming the guy who said the safety was on. I wouldn't call the person a cheater if they
truly didn't know, but they could have had someone they knew/trusted to double check.
02-07-2018, 10:03 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000228
I am just happy that some of the people supporting Billy are bringing their arguments against
the evidence here.
02-07-2018, 10:07 PM
Tessman
Quote:

I think you are correct about Christian PacMans assertion.
What I'm getting from his post is that VHS recording would be of a lower quality and of a
lower frame rate. Working off of that idea...
Someone more intimate with the tech can probably correct me if I'm wrong here, but it is my
understanding that NTSC VHS records at 29.97 FPS, interlaced. While a 'whole' frame is
drawn only at the rate of 30 FPS, there is data on such a recording at the rate of 60 FPS. If
these are indeed true facts, then we could still analyze such video, and a recording at a 'real'
30 FPS does not represent an accurate reproduction of the kind of data collected by NTSC
VHS.
02-07-2018, 10:22 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessman

VHS.
Exhibit A - 000229
I'd like to add to the VHS possibilities as well. There were also 3 types of recording you
could. LP (Long Play), EP (Extended Play), and SLP(Super Long Play). Each one extending
recording abilities at the price of reducing quality. I'd say read this for more exact details as it
would explain it better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS
02-07-2018, 10:22 PM
thegamer1185
Quote:

VHS.
I'd like to add to the VHS possibilities as well. There were also 3 types of recording you could
do, LP (Long Play), EP (Extended Play), and SLP(Super Long Play). Each one extending
recording abilities at the price of reducing quality. I'd say read this for more exact details as it
would explain it better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS
02-08-2018, 01:44 AM
RomulusVonFlex
The video of billy standing in front of 2 tvs showing off his world records is definitely mame.
Did someone switch out the tapes before he put it in the VCR? That isn't third party or some
weird sourced video. That is Billy himself.
Quote:

Until the original recordings and accompanying footage of Billy’s gameplay are
examined, one should not be so hasty in a rush to judgement since the purported
evidence comes from uploaded recordings of 2nd or 3rd generation copies and this
doesn’t prove what some are saying that it does. No one to my knowledge has taken
the time to duplicate the process involved in the recording of Billy's games using
similar equipment and technology. This would involve recording a direct feed from an
original DK cabinet to VHS via converter. Another VHS copy would then have to be
made (at the very least) and then played back on a TV through a VCR and recorded
by a camcorder similar to that used by Dwayne Richard. The results of such a project
would go far to either establishing or eliminating the disputed claim that such
gameplay could not be from an original machine.
Remember it is incumbent on those making claims of fraud or cheating to back up
Exhibit A - 000230
those claims. These recent claims have been challenged and disputed, showing the
so-called evidence fails in supporting such claims.
Unless there is conclusive evidence forthcoming that Billy Mitchell or his associates
cheated or did what they are being accused of, I would suggest a measure of
restraint and decorum.
Thank you"
https://www.facebook.com/david.race....04596409565773
02-08-2018, 02:40 AM
J.C. Harrist
Billy has already acknowledged that the tapes presented as evidence in this dispute are
MAME.
At 39:27 of this video of yesterdays show , Billy states :
"There are MAME world records. There is Donkey Kong MAME world records. OK? And
the film footage that he has... that Jeremy has.... shows MAME play."
https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=2367
02-08-2018, 02:48 AM
RTM
Quote:

normal PCB?
RTM REPLY - The answer should be a yes as there was an unrelated precedent to this
situation that should be applied unilaterally to all such scenarios involved where the gamer
"does not know" something about the game they are playing on for TG submission.
For a good 2+ years at ACAM the "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" arcade original,
unbeknownst to players, allowed for one (1) single additional man to be awarded over the
course of the game...if memory serves, 16 vs 15.
This attribute was not initially noticed by players until about 2 years later when multiple
records and personal bests had been logged into the TG database. Upon discovery, all these
scores were summarily removed thus allowing interested gamers to "re-game" under the
proper settings.
Exhibit A - 000231
Using this scenario, it could be applied that the onus is on the player to make sure that they
are playing on the proper settings before beginning their performance for the purpose of
recording/submission for TG. Same would apply towards games with established boardsets
for that title such as "Robotron".
Remember, Steve WIebe's very first contact of TG announcing a new WR on DK resulted in

the discovery that he had been playing on 6+1 settings. I never saw that performance but
Steve himself revealed this when he contacted me at my job back in the day to announce his
new score. When I explained the proper settings were 3+1 he was disappointed but said that
he would try again...and as history has shown, he did and he delivered albeit on a DDK board
set which was not known to me at the time.
So...if a DK player starts recording in an arcade for the purpose of a WR submission to TG,
and the inside of the game is MAME, onus of responsibility is on the player. Just as, for
example, if a player starts playing one of those old laser disc games and unbeknownst to them
it is not an original laser disc playing but rather a computer emulator program.
02-08-2018, 04:19 AM
Quote:

If you are going to analyze a 30fps video of another 30fps video then how does your logic
apply. You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
1/60th of a sec, but it still would have been recorded on a device running at 30fps.
02-08-2018, 04:24 AM
Barthax
Quote:

apply. You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
I think what Tessman is getting at is the vertical syncs are unlikely to be aligned, so partial
frames of the source will be available and might be discerned by the interlacing effect
recorded. Far from ideal, but if you've only got a VHS tape to go on, that's the best hope
available.
02-08-2018, 04:27 AM
Exhibit A - 000232
Quote:

apply? You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
02-08-2018, 04:37 AM
rotunda
Something I just noticed while i was watching random videos on YouTube...
These demos he does for various people on the perfect pac man score. In this video he's using
some sort of MAME multi cabinet and he is the one operating it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jDA5dq7GuI
I'm 99% sure in most of his demos of this perfect score he didn't sit there for hours working
up to lvl 255. I could be wrong but i doubt it...
This shows he's not quite as naive as he portrays to be when it comes to MAME. Even today
he acts like he knows next nothing about it when this video was shot in 2015 and again he's
clearly the operator. I believe he even said in that recent interview that he never used MAME
(can't be bothered to look for the exact quote, the presenter drives me absolutely nuts!) Well
clearly he has.
02-08-2018, 04:48 AM
gavv
Quote:

apply? You are kind of proving my point. The refresh rate of the DK monitor may be about
30 frame-per-second VHS is 60 field-per-second. There isn't an inherent loss of all

information come from sn NTSC VHS camera shooting or VHS recording of a
monitor/source.
02-08-2018, 04:52 AM
Sorry for duplicate post.

Exhibit A - 000233
02-08-2018, 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavv

30 frame-per-second VHS is 60 field-per-second. There isn't an inherent loss of all
information come from sn NTSC VHS camera shooting or VHS recording of a
monitor/source.
You still only have 30 frames for analysis.
02-08-2018, 04:58 AM
DadsGlasses
What are the chances that “missed or dropped data” caused by conflicting frame rate
recordings would possibly cause Arcade to build screens EXACTLY like MAME does? That
probability seems far lower than it actually being a MAME recording.
02-08-2018, 05:09 AM
Barthax
Quote:

You still only have 30 frames for analysis.
The VHS isn't taking a snapshot of one frame and then spreading it across two half-frames.
Each half-frame is going to represent a different frame in the original 60Hz (probably two due
to unsynchronised behaviours).
02-08-2018, 05:18 AM
Chaco Chicken
Divert blame to TG for having "lost the originals" and decry negligence upon the custodians
of vital evidence (as part of a conspiracy to defame him...wait for that).
Other proxies or loyalists will continue to obfuscate by providing irrelevant or misleading

information as evidence.
This is sticking to the script.
02-08-2018, 05:38 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

What are the chances that “missed or dropped data” caused by conflicting frame rate
recordings would possibly cause Arcade to build screens EXACTLY like MAME does? That
probability seems far lower than it actually being a MAME recording.
This is what I'm not really understanding from the post. @The Christian Pac-Man are you
saying that the lower frame rate could result in a change (perceived or actual) with how the
screen renders at the beginning. I have to agree with DadsGlasses here that it seems unlikely
Exhibit A - 000234
that frame rate would change programming, but maybe I'm missing something here. Could
you please elaborate?
02-08-2018, 05:42 AM
Riatoju
I just want to say, I'm adding this video to contribute to the body of evidence.
This video is a podcast I did with Triforce last night offering his opinions about the overall
dispute. What's more important is his message at the end asking via proxy for the community
to make a plea bargain with certain individuals or face the consequences. It is a long podcast
but I encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing or someone to summarize it. I'd break it
down into sections but I'm on my way to work.
Why is this important is because of the message at the end. More importantly many of you
might not know this but Triforce and Billy are brothers from another mother.
In this podcast he brings up the question of if the tapes leaked are a fabrication, about how
Dwayne Richards went to Richie Knucklez about making fabricated game performances
using MAME. He mentions how if Billy played on a MAME machine but didn't know how
could that be cheating. Could this be a possible window into what to expect? Also the
message at the end... I feel that's the most important part.
Now I just want to point out, I'm just the messenger, I wasn't asked to post this here by
Triforce but by a few other friends crucial to this investigation on both sides who suggested I
post it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uBcyQ5-Rk
02-08-2018, 05:46 AM
DadsGlasses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackflag82

This is what I'm not really understanding from the post. @The Christian Pac-Man are you
saying that the lower frame rate could result in a change (perceived or actual) with how the
screen renders at the beginning. I have to agree with DadsGlasses here that it seems unlikely
that frame rate would change programming, but maybe I'm missing something here. Could
you please elaborate?
I am interested to hear David’s response to this as well. This seems more like distraction than
actual evidence?
02-08-2018, 06:15 AM
homerwannabee
Here's the thing though. The 30 frames captured look exactly like MAME. Now if you were
to multiply that out 116 boards then the 30 FPS is going to capture every single possible
board drawing during transition stages. So far all the captured tranistion frames look exactly
like MAME instead of Arcade.
02-08-2018, 06:27 AM
Chaco Chicken
Exhibit A - 000235
Quote:

What's more important is his message at the end asking via proxy for the community to make
a plea bargain with certain individuals or face the consequences.
could that be cheating.
Proxy begins character assassination. The conspiracy to defame Mitchell begins to take shape.
Floating possibility of loyalist taking blame and Mitchell pleading ignorance to the
circumstances.
All this in under 24 hours. I couldn't have written a better version of this if I tried.
02-08-2018, 06:31 AM
DadsGlasses
Im sorry Hector. There is nothing of value here. TriForce makes a “plea” at the end basically
asking for Twin Galaxies to leave his friends alone. His claim that Jace promised a “clean
slate” does not mean that @Jace Hall agreed to keep bogus scores in the database. Each score
is being treated independently and both sides are being given a chance to present evidence.
There is no “Twin Gate Conspiracy”.
Quote:

I just want to say, I'm adding this video to contribute to the body of evidence.
This video is a podcast I did with Triforce last night offering his opinions about the overall
dispute. What's more important is his message at the end asking via proxy for the community
to make a plea bargain with certain individuals or face the consequences. It is a long podcast
but I encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing or someone to summarize it. I'd break it
down into sections but I'm on my way to work.
could that be cheating. Could this be a possible window into what to expect? Also the
message at the end... I feel that's the most important part.
Now I just want to point out, I'm just the messenger, I wasn't asked to post this here by
Triforce but by a few other friends crucial to this investigation on both sides who suggested I
post it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T8uBcyQ5-Rk
Exhibit A - 000236
02-08-2018, 06:34 AM
DadsGlasses
@TWIN GALAXIES thanks for the great updates. I really appreciate how this dispute is
being handled.
It appears Billy is trying to claim that the original tapes will vindicate him and that Twin
Galaxies has the tapes. This appears to be the “Ron Corcoran lost the tapes defense”.
Can you confirm at this time whether or not Twin Galaxies is in possession of the tape in
question?
Thanks again for all of your efforts.
02-08-2018, 06:34 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
Sorry just trying to make sens of the missing tape explanation
Sorry just trying to make sens of the missing tape explanation and will the missing tape ever
surface , that a pun :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLmUJCCKBTk
Attachment 49773
02-08-2018, 06:39 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

Im sorry Hector. There is nothing of value here. TriForce makes a “plea” at the end basically
asking for Twin Galaxies to leave his friends alone. His claim that Jace promised a “clean
slate” does not mean that @Jace Hall agreed to keep bogus scores in the database. Each score
is being treated independently and both sides are being given a chance to present evidence.
There is no “Twin Gate Conspiracy”.
I think you missed the threat of a "nuclear bomb being dropped" by Richie Knucklez and
Billy's camp, don't you that matters? The message I got was back or be destroyed.
02-08-2018, 06:43 AM
Riatoju
Basically it was a message to the Donkey Kong community that they should retract this
dispute or face the dead hand.
02-08-2018, 06:45 AM
DadsGlasses
No. Of course that doesn’t matter. Not one bit. Threats from outside sources make zero
difference in this dispute. These appear to be more attempts to distract from the facts.
One dispute at a time. One score at a time. Evidence based dispute system will help continue
to bring integrity to the scoreboard. Anyone that doesn’t want integrity in the scoreboard
Exhibit A - 000237
should leave.
Quote:

02-08-2018, 06:51 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

If they have some bombshell information they need to release it. It doesn't matter how this
dispute turns out. They need to come out with their "dead hand" information. Ask triforce
why billy was standing in front of two tvs showing off his world records that were mame
rendered games. Did someone switch out the VHS tapes for fakes before billy put them in the
VCR?
02-08-2018, 06:52 AM
WCopeland
Quote:

I can't think of a better way to unite the DK community than to threaten them.
02-08-2018, 06:52 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Just a reminder, Joel West says he is going to post his evidence tonight. So in the last 24
hours, Billy's supporters are stating that the MAME rendering is doable by recording a
recording of a recording. That's fine. It's very easy to test. Someone just needs to record a
cabinet for a few minutes. Make a copy of that original, then make another copy of the copy.
Check to see if the image is rendered differently. There you go. They also talk about cam
corders. Go ahead and use the cam corder to make a video of the 3rd copied tape being played
on a TV. This would be a very easy and short process to resolve. Do the same for a MAME
play as well. I would test several types of CRT screens just to be thorough. See what the
results are. Someone also suggested testing the picture rendering of every single DK machine
you can find and see what it looks like. Exhibit A - 000238
The real main defense they have is that Dwayne (I have no idea who this person is, they just
keep saying he is the one who is after Billy) somehow switched tapes at the Boomer event/or
doctored an entire play of Billy's hoping it would be caught by others instead of making the
copy and telling people something looks and they should check it out.
This is just summing up what has happened.
02-08-2018, 06:54 AM
Robert.F
Makes sens
threat you say Hector hmm.... So i guess we are at stage 2

The five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance
02-08-2018, 06:56 AM
Snowflake
Plea bargain? Really? Its too late to bargain AFTER you're already found guilty. The time to
come clean has passed. This is equivalent to someone the defendant interrupting the closing
arguments and asking for a plea bargain knowing full well he lost. way too late.
Not only was it mame, but deception has been established with numerous lies, one of the most
significant being mame enthusiast mitchel regularly uses mame yet goes out of his way to try
to pretend to be naive about it. Insults everyone invovled. Accuses of a witch hunt. Calls us
loers. Suggests ridiculous notions that would pretty much mean dwanye was a sorcerer
capable of some pretty powerful magic to pull off what team billy accusing him of. You dont
get to treat everyone like that and then after all the pathetic excuses fall apart ask to plea
bargain.
As for the threat, let that be seen for what it is, corruptoin and collusion. An attempt to
intimidate the vote. Remember, billy has been accused of intimidating votes before to even
get his score in the first place. While I was loathe to take Pattersons word for it, we're seeing
now the willingness to intimidate. The fact in\timidation tactics are such a quick go to alone
should be cause for a ban, and it further makes it likely to believe intimidation tactics were
used in the past making me think none of us his scores were real and he just intimidated TG
into accepting them.
Shows over.
02-08-2018, 06:57 AM
thegamer1185
Quote:

Just a reminder, Joel West says he is going to post his evidence tonight. So in the last 24
hours, Billy's supporters are stating that the MAME rendering is doable by recording a
recording of a recording. That's fine. It's very easy to test. Someone just needs to record a
cabinet for a few minutes. Make a copy of that original, then make another copy of the copy.
Check to see if the image is rendered differently. There you go. They also talk about cam
corders. Go ahead and use the cam corder to make a video of the 3rd copied tape being played
on a TV. This would be a very easy and short process to resolve. Do the same for a MAME
play as well. I would test several types of CRT screens just to be thorough. See what the
results are. Someone also suggested testing the picture rendering of every single A
Exhibit DK machine
- 000239
you can find and see what it looks like.
The real main defense they have is that Dwayne (I have no idea who this person is, they just
keep saying he is the one who is after Billy) somehow switched tapes at the Boomer event/or
doctored an entire play of Billy's hoping it would be caught by others instead of making the
copy and telling people something looks and they should check it out.
This is just summing up what has happened.
I would think @Jace Hall , @TWIN GALAXIES is already going to be doing this process
to see if it is actually a possibility. I don't understand how any recording of anything changes
how the image is rendered, but that is what they are suggesting. The way I understand
recording devices is exactly how it works in the videos of Billy's Boomer exhibit. The video
recorder records the image however it does, either frame by frame, skipping frames, top to
bottom, left to right, upside down, whatever. It does not alter any image or how they are
rendered just by being recorded. This is me and I could be wrong. It's like saying I recorded a
piece of paper my daughters colored with vertical lines but the recording device changes them
to horizontal line? Sorry for the sarcastic approach but this how I'm understanding this.
02-08-2018, 07:00 AM
Snowflake
Quote:

I can't think of a better way to unite the DK community than to threaten them.
not just the dk community but the rest of us.
i've mocked you guys and we've had our back and forth but I would never try to use
intimidation on you and im convinced none of you would use it on me. If team billy wants to
show its true colors all their doing is showing how they made the records in the old days.
Apparently its easier to use mame and intimidate others than it is to learn how to play. Way to
prove to the world what a bunch of skillless cheating colluding would be jury riggers they are
02-08-2018, 07:04 AM
Riatoju
Quote:

No. Of course that doesn’t matter. Not one bit. Threats from outside sources make zero
difference in this dispute. These appear to be more attempts to distract from the facts.
One dispute at a time. One score at a time. Evidence based dispute system will help continue
to bring integrity to the scoreboard. Anyone that doesn’t want integrity in the scoreboard
should leave.
I respect that and after our last interaction I did encourage people to come instead of using me
as a messager. They are here at my request, it may be a distraction but they need to
understand what's going on. Like Christian Pacman for example. I'm glad he could join us.
I'm trying to contribute in the best way possible, that's why I asked several key people if I
should post this, they felt it is worth noting.
Exhibit A - 000240
02-08-2018, 07:08 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I respect that and after our last interaction I did encourage people to come instead of using me
as a messager. They are here at my request, it may be a distraction but they need to
understand what's going on. Like Christian Pacman for example. I'm glad he could join us.
I'm trying to contribute in the best way possible, that's why I asked several key people if I
should post this, they felt it is worth noting.
Answer my question please. Why was Billy showing off his world record tapes that were
mame rendered donkey kong. Did someone switch out fake tapes for his real VHS tapes
before he put them in the VCR? He is standing there announcing he got another world record
with his lawyer friend and the games are obviously played on mame based on the board
loading. Ask his friends on facebook too.
02-08-2018, 07:08 AM
Ninglendo
I would just like to point out that the theory of Billy accidentally playing on a MAME cab has
a lot of flaws in it. At the end of all three runs in question he would of had to go through the
proper TG verification process. Meaning, he would of had to open up the cab to show the
board. I'm pretty sure even with his limited knowledge of boards and MAME that he could
tell the difference between a PCB and a PC. So that leaves us with two scenarios with this
theory. Either Billy did not go through any verification process on all three runs or he did and
after realizing it was MAME passed it off as an arcade score.
02-08-2018, 07:10 AM
DadsGlasses
Nevermind the drastic difference in sounds.
Quote:

02-08-2018, 07:10 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000241
Or he created the fake scores using mame. The only reason he hit over 1 million points was
the RNG from the smashes.
02-08-2018, 07:17 AM
DadsGlasses
On a side note, I am of the opinion that threats should be handled seriously. People making
threats and people spreading threats should stop or be removed.
Ive engaged in multiple disagreements here on TG. Disagreements happen. Threats are a
different story.
02-08-2018, 07:38 AM
Chaco Chicken
Quote:

Nevermind the drastic difference in sounds.
This is important as it establishes that Mitchell couldn't unknowingly play a MAME game.
The sound and music would be out of sync. Removing sound from gameplay footage shows
knowledge of the difference.
02-08-2018, 07:43 AM
Scoops
Quote:

"It's authenticity on a scale like never before," - Billy Mitchell
From The Mortgage Brookers 1,050200 score
http://www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donk...s-to-prove-it/
How can anyone seriously believe a word Mitchell says? Too many good people are making
themselves look ridiculous backing up such nonsense.
02-08-2018, 07:47 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Exhibit A - 000242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoops

"It's authenticity on a scale like never before," - Billy Mitchell
From The Mortgage Brookers 1,050200 score
//www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donkey-kong-king-reclaims-top-score-and-hes-got-witnesses-
to-prove-it/
How can anyone seriously believe a word Mitchell says? Too many good people are making
themselves look ridiculous backing up such nonsense.
"Twin Galaxies senior referee Todd Rogers witnessed the session, securing it as an official
high score." That makes it way more credible.
02-08-2018, 08:20 AM
Mitch Mitchell
Quote:
These demos he does for various people on the perfect pac man score. In this video he's using
some sort of MAME multi cabinet and he is the one operating it.
I'm 99% sure in most of his demos of this perfect score he didn't sit there for hours working
up to lvl 255. I could be wrong but i doubt it...
This shows he's not quite as naive as he portrays to be when it comes to MAME. Even today
he acts like he knows next nothing about it when this video was shot in 2015 and again he's
clearly the operator. I believe he even said in that recent interview that he never used MAME
(can't be bothered to look for the exact quote, the presenter drives me absolutely nuts!) Well
clearly he has.
Here he is in this video running a seemingly save stated Pacman for his demonstration and
you'll notice HE is the tech at the 14:00 mark, after finished speaking he begins working
inside the back of the cabinet on the machine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNvVnG_cZk&t=3049s
02-08-2018, 08:34 AM
Blackflag82
Quote:

Exhibit A - 000243
I can already see the back peddling now - "When he said he'd never played MAME he meant
he'd never played it for DK. Of course he would use it for Pac Man and other games"
02-08-2018, 08:42 AM
Muerto
Quote:

Here is a thread from the KLOV forum explaining this: https://forums.arcade-

museum.com/sho...&highlight=255
Would anyone be interested in my Pac-Man Level 255 patch ? This patch modifies Pac-Man
to start at level 255. If this level is completed the next level (level 256) is the kill screen. Two
ROMs need to be patched, 6E and 6J. I have two versions of the patch, one which also
supports free play and one which does not.
This was playable at California Extreme in a cabinet provided by Jonathan (jkoolpe) with a
custom marquee and topper done by a former coworker of mine, Norm Badillo.
02-08-2018, 09:12 AM
The Evener
So it's come to this.
Whether directly in his own words or through the statements of emissaries, Billy Mitchell -
like some 1980s action flick villain - is promising to blow up the place and take everyone
with him. This, from a so-called champion. This is how he deals with adversity.
Got it.
And to the friends of Billy who are enabling and actively promoting this, or even standing
passively by - shame on you.
Nuclear bomb, TNT, pick your explosive.
Forget the last 35 years. Billy's goal of destroying the community (or trying to) will be his
lasting legacy.
Whatever happens, we will rebuild - and that will be ours.
02-08-2018, 09:37 AM
Chaco Chicken
Quote:

So it's come to this.
Exhibit A - 000244
Whether directly in his own words or through the statements of emissaries, Billy Mitchell -
like some 1980s action flick villain - is promising to blow up the place and take everyone
with him. This, from a so-called champion. This is how he deals with adversity.
Forget the last 35 years. Billy's goal of destroying the community (or trying to) will be his
lasting legacy.
Whatever happens, we will rebuild - and that will be ours.
A word of caution here. This is bait. The advantage of utilizing proxies is that one can deny
they speak for him and in turn accuse you of putting words into his mouth. He can state that
the guys over at TG are claiming I said I was going to ruin them and destroy the community.
He can then claim you are making up things about him.
Be wary of this tactic.
02-08-2018, 09:57 AM
rotunda
1 Attachment(s)
I'm not usually one for posting things like this, especially in a dispute thread but I will make
an exception here...
Why is all this recent behaviour starting to remind me of a certain someone...
Attachment 49775
02-08-2018, 09:59 AM
The Evener
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaco Chicken

A word of caution here. This is bait. The advantage of utilizing proxies is that one can deny
they speak for him and in turn accuse you of putting words into his mouth. He can state that
the guys over at TG are claiming I said I was going to ruin them and destroy the community.
He can then claim you are making up things about him.
Be wary of this tactic.
Thanks for the caution - that was something I consciously considered in trying to formulate
my reaction. So yes, let me be more clear - people claiming to be conveying Billy's words -
time will tell if those purveyors of words were truthful or not.
02-08-2018, 10:11 AM
Robert.F
1 Attachment(s)
IM sure you all seen this
I`m sure you all seen this im still stund....Attachment 49776 This Bill saying TG should have
the original copy... watch know one can find,,, how convenient for bill look at photo ã€€ and
this tape shows him playing live in the room not direct feed (so what Right) Bill has more to
Add with this room shot from 25 feet away you can zoom in on the screen and test if it mame
.... but until that tape where ever that is , is found billy sticking to his story and the would
goose chase starts .. more then enough explanation for the Billy camp
https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=38m44s Exhibit A - 000245
02-08-2018, 10:27 AM
Robert.F
And lets not forget the second monkey wrench thrown in to this thing.
Dwayne Richards has master minded a Mame direct feed tape matching Billy record from
boomers.
Dwayne has swap it before or at the hall of fame and this is the tape playing this being play at
the big bang,
This explains how Bill ended up standing next to a TV monitor showing a mame from direct
feed to a VCR.
Wow the plot thicken`s and we all been put into a holding pattern , well play Bill i must say
02-08-2018, 10:41 AM
CWK
Quote:

And lets not forget the second monkey wrench thrown in to this thing.
Dwayne Richards has master minded a Mame direct feed tape matching Billy record from
boomers.
Dwayne has swap it before or at the hall of fame and this is the tape playing this being play at
the big bang,
This explains how Bill ended up standing next to a TV monitor showing a mame from direct
feed to a VCR.
Wow the plot thicken`s and we all been put into a holding pattern , well play Bill i must say
This is truly an amazing feet for Dwayne. I now have a new god. All hail to Lord Richards
02-08-2018, 10:42 AM
timmell
6 Attachment(s)
This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at the IVGHOF 2010 Big
Bang Event.Attachment 49777
Attachment 49778
Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781
Attachment 49782
02-08-2018, 10:47 AM
CWK
Quote:

Attachment 49778
Exhibit A - 000246
Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781
Attachment 49782
I can see the dispair in Steve's eyes. Poor guy wondering why his fake score had to go but
Billy's could stay.
02-08-2018, 10:48 AM
CWK
Is that Steve Weibe in the last photo? The true star of the show
02-08-2018, 10:50 AM
zallard1
[QUOTE=timmell;948236]This is Billy Signing the VCR that played back his 1.062 score at
the IVGHOF 2010 Big Bang Event.
*insert pictures*/QUOTE]
Wow, looks like Billy watched his own footage after all. Somehow he seems pretty ok with
his videos being MAME generated here, so I don't believe you can say that Billy is unaware
that he was playing someone else's tapes at this point.
02-08-2018, 10:52 AM
Snowflake
Has anyone proven that really is billy mitchell? Maybe dwayne has a billy costume with
prosthetics and all. Dwayne did it. Dwayne Dwayne Dwayen
02-08-2018, 10:52 AM
The Evener
@timmell , thanks for the photos. One of them features a man with a camcorder - can anyone
identify who that might be?
02-08-2018, 10:54 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Did you even suspect at all when you recorded it that it was faked footage?
Quote:

Attachment 49778
Attachment 49780
Attachment 49781
Attachment 49782
Exhibit A - 000247
02-08-2018, 10:58 AM
CWK
Quote:

Has anyone proven that really is billy mitchell? Maybe dwayne has a billy costume with
prosthetics and all. Dwayne did it. Dwayne Dwayne Dwayen
No way man. This is definitely a clone. Either Dwayne truly is god or there is government
conspiracy going on here
02-08-2018, 11:01 AM
timmell
Quote:

Did you even suspect at all when you recorded it that it was faked footage?
I was fresh on the scene, I only knew how Consoles worked at the time. Why would I have
doubts, Todd said it was good.
02-08-2018, 11:03 AM
Marcade
Quote:
Attachment 49780
Yes, please buy me 1000 shares of SONY stock, as this "PlayStation thing" is going to
explode! (Your Welcome)
Attachment 49782
"Thank you TG refs for "overriding" the current DK arcade rules (at the time) of "live
performances only", and giving me the "special treatment" of a taped game instead, just for
me !!! "
..........
02-08-2018, 11:13 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

I was fresh on the scene, I only knew how Consoles worked at the time. Why would I have
doubts, Todd said it was good.
Am I correct in thinking that it is your footage?

Exhibit A - 000248
02-08-2018, 11:20 AM
timmell
Quote:

Am I correct in thinking that it is your footage?
Yes and the footage him announcing his records was mine too. I was there to record for the
Twin Galaxies Podcast.
02-08-2018, 11:21 AM
voodoo_chilly
camcorder
Quote:

@timmell, thanks for the photos. One of them features a man with a camcorder - can anyone
identify who that might be?
The guy with the camcorder (with the Dr. Pepper shirt) looks like David Race (The Christian
Pac Man)
02-08-2018, 11:28 AM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

Yes and the footage him announcing his records was mine too. I was there to record for the
Twin Galaxies Podcast.
We can all assume you didn't edit it to include MAME on the screens correct?
02-08-2018, 11:31 AM
voodoo_chilly
The guy with his back to the camera appearing to be talking with Steve is "Crazy Kong
Fan"Ochs. I forget his first name at the moment, but he always goes by "Crazy Kong Fan" in
forums. I've seen him at events and he usually just takes photos, but maybe he videotaped
too? I dunno.
02-08-2018, 11:32 AM
timmell
Quote:

No I did not alter the video or edit it. If that claim is ever made...... well we will leave it at
that. Here it evidence of the capture date of my video from the camcorder for the record. And
the frame by frame playback of the area in questions. In the original format.
Exhibit A - 000249
02-08-2018, 11:36 AM
xelnia
Quote:

There is footage from another person in the audience that day.
https://youtu.be/b7YdkD9Ffvg
https://i.imgur.com/3iCh8AB.gif
02-08-2018, 11:53 AM
rotunda
That last gif... has anyone thought to check and see how DK jr loads in MAME vs real
hardware? Looks like hes used the same method to record that as well.
And yes that's Steve in the last photo. Poor guy should of been the one making the
speech/announcement.
02-08-2018, 11:54 AM
Robert.F
billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong
https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-br...-sc-1822815818
02-08-2018, 11:54 AM
IAmNerdJock
Quote:

That last gif... has anyone thought to check and see how DK jr loads in MAME vs real
hardware? Looks like hes used the same method to record that as well.
And yes that's Steve in the last photo. Poor guy should of been the one making the
speech/announcement.
I slowed down the DK Jr on that video by Timmel and it looks like MAME as well
02-08-2018, 11:58 AM
rotunda
Has anyone done any side by side comparisons of DK jr like DK? I'm not familiar with how
DK jr loads on actual hardware but if that does prove to be dodgy as well then... what more is
there to say.
It's pretty obvious to me already whats going on here hence my vote.
Exhibit A - 000250
02-08-2018, 12:08 PM
DadsGlasses
Is it correct to assume, based on this quote, that Twin Galaxies is NOT in possession of the
tapes that Bully refers to?
Quote from Kotaku article, “Whether Bouvier, who passed away last year, was in the room or
not, former Twin Galaxies employees said to Kotaku that they have heard of the existence of a
video tape recording of Mitchell’s 2010 scores, but that no one can locate it.”
02-08-2018, 12:35 PM
Robert.F
Yup and billy has put all the focus on this tape that missing , but sure loves to tell the story of
what you would see if the tape found , if it even existences.. to watch makes no sens to give
TG a tape of a shot of the room but not a closeup of the screen ,, BUT BUT watch again
would make no sens the game was referee live ,,,,, BBB classic Triple B Bullcrap Baffles
Brains
02-08-2018, 02:09 PM
Riatoju
Quote:

Answer my question please. Why was Billy showing off his world record tapes that were
mame rendered donkey kong. Did someone switch out fake tapes for his real VHS tapes
before he put them in the VCR? He is standing there announcing he got another world record
with his lawyer friend and the games are obviously played on mame based on the board
loading. Ask his friends on facebook too.
I feel the Triforce podcast I posted covers exactly how they plan to address this unless they
get some expert to come up with some thoery and decide not to answer it. Another interview
is coming soon. Keep an eye out.
02-08-2018, 02:13 PM
starcrytas
I was just about to ask if the DK Jr. record done by Billy was maybe a MAME score passed
off as an arcade score.
Another dispute for Billy's DK Jr. score???
02-08-2018, 02:25 PM
richard31337
I've been reading this thread for days. I voted near the beginning because of the clear
evidence. I have learned a lot of history here too, being reasonably new to Twin Galaxies in
the scheme of things.
It is MAME. The score should never have been entered into then International Score Board. I
vote valid dispute.
Thanks to all for their valuable input and evidence.

Exhibit A - 000251
Fairly disgusted on a more personal note. Yes, Billy was an idol and legend of mine as with
many of the early gamers.
And Robert M, thank you for continuing to be involved in this and providing useful posts
throughout.
That is all.
Richard
02-08-2018, 02:38 PM
thegamer1185
So I've got to ask this question. Hopefully not all disputed scores that are removed will end in
a person being banned for life and all scores removed. @admin staff , @Jace Hall , what are
the details you examine when determining those factors? Todd had many scores found to be
impossible. Billy may have tried passing this score off as MAME. Just curious.
02-08-2018, 02:43 PM
starcrytas
1 Attachment(s)
This score is a MAME passed off as an Arcade score and seems to be spliced as well.
Attachment 49787
02-08-2018, 02:49 PM
maxim_recoil
It looks like an easy, "open and shut" case to me. From the "East Side Dave" interview:
Quote:
“The film footage that he has, that Jeremy has, shows MAME play,” Mitchell said. “Now,
I contend that if he gets the original tape, or he gets the original room shot, he will see that
what I say is true. I’m not disputing what he says. What I’m disputing is the fact that I want
him to have the original tape. And the fact of the matter is that that original footage was given
to Twin Galaxies, Twin Galaxies has it or should have it, and if it’s anywhere other than Twin
Galaxies, that’s a real problem.”
https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=39m33s
In post #679, this picture was posted:
https://i.imgur.com/cgphL3q.jpg
Billy Mitchell is looking at the TV which is displaying what he recently admitted is "MAME
play". Another picture in that same post even shows him signing the VCR that was playing
that "MAME play" tape. His reference to an "original tape" is irrelevant. He was clearly
presenting the above-pictured tape as being his gameplay, and he's now admitted it's from
MAME. What else is there to prove? He has confessed.
02-08-2018, 02:53 PM
rotunda
Exhibit A - 000252
I agree.. there really isn't much else to say at this stage. It's as clear as can be.
02-08-2018, 02:55 PM
thegamer1185
I agree at this point. He admits it's MAME. Is he trying to say that if you don't have the
smoking gun, in this case, the original tape you can't 100% prove it? Someone close to Billy
needs to ask him why the original tape means anything.
02-08-2018, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxim_recoil

It looks like an easy, "open and shut" case to me. From the "East Side Dave" interview:
https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=39m33s
In post #679, this picture was posted:
https://i.imgur.com/cgphL3q.jpg
Billy Mitchell is looking at the TV which is displaying what he recently admitted is "MAME
play". Another picture in that same post even shows him signing the VCR that was playing
that "MAME play" tape. His reference to an "original tape" is irrelevant. He was clearly
presenting the above-pictured tape as being his gameplay, and he's now admitted it's from
MAME. What else is there to prove? He has confessed.
Where did Billy Mitchell say that what he was playing at the Big Bang was a "MAME play"
tape?
02-08-2018, 03:09 PM
1 Attachment(s)
I visited a local arcade after I got off work today and just took some videos with my
phone. Here is a screenshot from one showing all the ladders and part of the oil
barrel at the bottom.
I spoke with the owner and may be able to arrange a time within the next few days to
bring an old camcorder and my vcr and record some footage.
Attachment 49790
02-08-2018, 03:10 PM
xelnia
Quote:

tape?
Exhibit A - 000253
In Billy's appearance on the podcast, he says: "And the film footage that he has, that
Jeremy has, shows MAME play." He is thus admitting that the Big Bang footage posted in
this thread, that he is presenting, is MAME.
Also, someone in this thread earlier claimed you were at that event with a camcorder. Do you
have additional footage from that day?
02-08-2018, 03:11 PM
RomulusVonFlex
Quote:

tape?
It is mame...
02-08-2018, 03:11 PM
maxim_recoil
Quote:

tape?
Again, with regard to the tape being displayed on that TV at the 2010 Big Bang IVGHOF
event, Jeremy said it was MAME play (and backed his assertion up with solid evidence). In
the recent East Side Dave interview, Billy Mitchell agreed with Jeremy:
“The film footage that he has, that Jeremy has, shows MAME play,” - Billy Mitchell
And reaffirmed his agreement with Jeremy when he said that he doesn't dispute Jeremy's
assertions:
"I’m not disputing what he says." - Billy Mitchell
02-08-2018, 03:16 PM
thegamer1185
In that East Side Dave Show that interviewed him Tuesday night.

Jason Hall Twin Galaxies Declaration

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Jason Hall Twin Galaxies Declaration

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1 David A.

Tashroudian [SBN 266718]

9 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

12 Plaintiff, Assigned to: Hon. Gregory W. Alarcon

2 I, Jason Hall, declare that:

16 Galaxies video game score leaderboards.

17 THE TWIN GALAXIES PUBLIC WEBSITE FORUMS & SCORE LEADERBOARDS

18 3. Twin Galaxies operates a web site at the address: www.twingalaxies.com (the

11 achievements in those categories.

18 recorded different leaderboards.

24 as world records by the Guinness organization and others.

25 SCORE SUBMISSION PROCESS

5 “Dip-Switch Bank: 1-7 = OFF; 8 = ON/OFF [Upright/Cocktail]; Number of Jumpman: 3; Score

10 rules is grounds for disqualification of a score or submission.

23 the leaderboard, and is presumed valid.

24 SCORE CLAIM DISPUTE PROCESS

26 score appearing on a leaderboard. Next to every score performance record on a leaderboard is a

28 performance and achievement claim.

8 can too, so long as they register to post on the site.

10 trigger a score removal recommendation. When a score removal recommendation is triggered, a

14 community’s removal recommendation, the disputed score will be removed.

19 score removal recommendation event.

23 by the community review process.

25 dispute claim discussion thread will be considered toward any decision.

2 Galaxies adjudicated performance record in order to have that record removed.

7 that the dispute claim process can be lengthy.

9 Twin Galaxies Website at: https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Policy:The-

11 DISPUTE CLAIM RELATING TO THE BILLY MITCHELL DONKEY KONG SCORES

19 Score Dispute Claim Thread.

4 from an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade system.

12 800?p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633. The presented evidence comprehensively demonstrated

16 original Donkey Kong Arcade system.

20 ruleset can be found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/168098-Twin-

27 continue to observe this discussion by experts in our community.”

7 needed to be looked at and verified.

12 post can be found at this web address: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-

19 to find any relevant material needed for comparative or origination.

25 malicious or representative of anyone’s character.

8 took a total of 7 months from start to finish.

10 leaderboards. My only concern is to maintain the integrity of the leaderboards.

12 investigating Jeremy Young’s dispute claim. In my communications with Mr. Michell, I

18 public Mitchell Score Dispute Claim Thread.

23 Dispute Thread, found here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-

2 his findings to the public evidentiary dispute thread.

9 Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards.”

11 Dispute Thread here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-

25 /s/ Jason Hall

Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong -

Dispute: Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hamm - 1,062,800

Vzaar Video Url: https://view.vzaar.com/1135817 Copy

Other videos from this Boomers session are:

lord have mercy

Subscribing to this thread.

Original board swap video with audio intact for reference:

up to a 100 at some point with cell phones and video,,,,,,

Originally Posted by DadsGlasses

Originally Posted by Robert.F

2013 SDCC video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxGaWi1dFdw): a staged event

1.05 Direct Feed video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI): without access