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Skype Q&A chat with director Leo Lucien-Bey (aka
Chat Moderator: Ricky Grove (with help from Ingrid Moon)
(Please Note: this chat has been slightly edited to make it easier to read) Recorded on 2007-09-16
In attendance: Akirakenobi / allenmarshall / animize / coyotv / deconstruct3d flingfilms / futsin / methetom / michellepm / philrrice / pmarino730 suhnder / tom jantol / supreme_overlord_angelus / tfstall & zsgamemaster
-Director Leo Lucien-Bey's comments are in yellowfutsin: 1:00:21 Hey, here's the big Q I got for everyone about this. Do you think he killed the right man?
Jason Choi: 1:01:00 he did say "im sorry" before he got beaten to a pulp
Ricky Grove: 1:01:04 Okay everyone, it's time to start the premiere!
Philip R. Rice: 1:01:07 T.F. in the house!!!
futsin: 1:01:15 But did he mean to say "I'm sorry, BUT I'M NOT THE RIGHT GUY"?
Ricky Grove: 1:01:22 Heya, Todd!
Philip R. Rice: 1:01:24 Thanks for coming, Todd.
Ingrid Moon: 1:01:26 Yay! EVERYONE - if you have a question please IM Ingrid (me) and I'll queue you up.
JOHNMARTIN2: 1:01:26 Hi Todd
Ingrid Moon: 1:01:40 You don't have to ask me the question, just ping me with a ?
Ricky Grove: 1:01:48 Yes, if you have questions IM Ingrid and we'll get to them right after we chat with Leo about BEAST
Ingrid Moon: 1:01:50 and I'll let you take the credit for asking.
Jason Choi: 1:01:55
hm, he also could've been trying to say "i'm sooooo hungry"
Ingrid Moon: 1:02:01 first Leo & the hosts
Ingrid Moon: 1:02:10 *slaps Jason* shh
Ricky Grove: 1:02:52 Greetings everyone! Thanks so much for coming to our 2nd film premiere for Machiniplex!
futsin: 1:02:53 So who are the host? Who made this? What's going on? Where are my pants? Where's Waldo?
Ricky Grove: 1:03:08 I'm the host. Shut up ans sit still!
Ricky Grove: 1:03:18 Okay...
Ricky Grove: 1:03:52 Today we are premiering what we think is a remarkable film by Dr. Nemesis (aka Leo Lucien-Bay)
Ricky Grove: 1:04:10 It's called BEAST (or is it THE BEAST, Leo?)
Dr. Nemesis: 1:04:21 just "BEAST", hehe
Ricky Grove: 1:04:29 as I thought.
Ricky Grove: 1:04:56 Anyway, I dont' use hyperbole that often, but I do think this film IS remarkable. If you've seen it by now, you'll know why.
Jason Choi: 1:05:34 and if you havent, please do so at http://www.machiniplex.com now!
Ricky Grove: 1:05:44 We chose this film for Machiniplex unanimously. I'd like to thank Leo, Ingrid and Jason (and Phil Rice) for getting this premiere together so quickly
Ricky Grove: 1:06:02 Yes, if you haven't seen the film,just follow Jason's link.
Ricky Grove: 1:06:28 Now, why don't we introduce Leo. Do you have anything you'd like to say to the group?
Dr. Nemesis: 1:07:16 Well first of all I'd like to thank Phil Rice and the guys (and gal) at Machiniplex for organizing this
tfstall: 1:07:39 *applause*
Ben: 1:07:54 *nod*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:08:09 I hadn't shown anyone the film and really had no idea how it would be received. I just knew that I was crap at publicity and wanted a little help
Dr. Nemesis: 1:08:22 I didnt expect the levels of enthusiasm that followed
tfstall: 1:08:24 *looks over at overman*
Ricky Grove: 1:08:47 *overman lifts shoulders*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:08:59 So I'm really thankful
Ricky Grove: 1:09:49 Well, we are very happy to have you here and to be able to premiere your film.
Ricky Grove: 1:10:30 I've got a couple questions (and I think Jason and Ingrid do, too) then we'll open it up to the floor.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:10:37 ultra
Ricky Grove: 1:11:05 Can you tell us some details of how you were inspired to create this film and how long it took you to put it together?
Dr. Nemesis: 1:11:51 Well the idea of doing a 'vengeance Movie' has been with me for a long time
Dr. Nemesis: 1:12:09 I think at time every1 gets angry 2 the point where they imagine harming someone
Dr. Nemesis: 1:12:16 *imagine*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:12:20 anyway
Dr. Nemesis: 1:12:47 I saw Oldboy by Chan-wook Park a few years ago and it was a great insight
Dr. Nemesis: 1:13:09 Those who havent seen it please check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLn1y9v6yno later
Ricky Grove: 1:13:24 *applause*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:13:30 as it will give you an idea of how the plot began stirring
Dr. Nemesis: 1:13:47 the challenge in this case was to compress these themes into a 5 minute film
Dr. Nemesis: 1:14:44 It DID however give a perfect excuse to use the facial animation technique I used on the "meet the Heavy" spoof which I had previously done
Dr. Nemesis: 1:15:20 to how possible it was to address the communication problem we still have in Machinima
Dr. Nemesis: 1:15:40 as in: we rely mostly on sound
Dr. Nemesis: 1:15:55 great acting and a good score, to get the overall emotion across
Dr. Nemesis: 1:16:33 I thought now that I had the ability, I would try to add the often missing facial aspect.
tfstall: 1:16:48 *cheer*
Ricky Grove: 1:17:03 Thanks, Leo. We
Ricky Grove: 1:17:18 We'll you certainly did a great job with facial animations.
Ricky Grove: 1:18:06 I was impressed with the film as a whole, but the acting and animations were standouts for me.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:18:43 Well, Fortunately Crazy Talk, which some people have already used in their own films really makes it much easier than it used to be
Ricky Grove: 1:19:04 There were some changes in the sound for the film since you sent the version in for the Europe Machinima fest, right? Can you go into that a bit. Phil, feel free to contribute here.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:20:30 Well, as I initially sent the festival the non spruced up version, I thought it was safer to first give the same cut to them for the DVD. I didnt have you or Phil's name in the credits on the initial
form, and didn't want it to look like I was trying to be underhanded
Dr. Nemesis: 1:20:38 the film took 1 month to make
Dr. Nemesis: 1:21:09 at which point it was submitted to the fest. Then Phil offered to spruce up the sound mix, the way he knows oh so well
Philip R. Rice: 1:21:56 It didn't need much done to it; Leo had already put a nice set of sounds and performances in there. It really was just a matter of tweaking.
Philip R. Rice: 1:22:23 Ricky helped me by doing some cleanup on some audio clipping which was on some of the dialogue tracks...
Ricky Grove: 1:22:44 *a little bow*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:23:05 God knows I never get the audio right
Philip R. Rice: 1:23:07 I added a bit of reverb to give a sense of the room they were in, and then focused mainly on thickening up the ambient (background) noise a bit.
Ingrid Moon: 1:23:07 I liked the drive-by in the b.g.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:23:09 hehe
Philip R. Rice: 1:23:36 Yeah, adding some depth to the rain sounds, adding a bit of very light traffic...
Ricky Grove: 1:23:44 The re-mix really gives a great sense of the place. Good work, Phil.
Philip R. Rice: 1:24:08 The 3 vehicle bys were just to give a sense of life, but still be sparse enough to be in keeping with the sense of isolation of the setting.
Ingrid Moon: 1:24:21 Was the timing of the drive-by significant? I know sometimes the sounds guys or director have specific meanings with seemingly common/inane sounds
Ingrid Moon: 1:24:32 ah i c
Philip R. Rice: 1:24:37 And I made the wooden chairs squeak a bit.
Philip R. Rice: 1:24:39 RE: timing...
Ingrid Moon: 1:24:42 yes tha twas a nice touch
Philip R. Rice: 1:25:24 I wasn't being too deliberate with them, no; the primary concern in this case was I didn't want them to be distracting, and I didn't want them to drown out one bit of dialogue.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:25:35 I did have 1 significant sound there actually
Dr. Nemesis: 1:26:00 theres the line "alright... Soldier" at which time there a lightning strike with thunder
Ingrid Moon: 1:26:12 subtle!
Dr. Nemesis: 1:26:20 to help remember the significance later
Philip R. Rice: 1:26:23 Yeah, all the thunder strikes were in Leo's original recording, and were very well timed.
Philip R. Rice: 1:26:47 I also didn't touch the foley (punches, gunshot) at all, other than placing them in the same space as the vocals.
Philip R. Rice: 1:26:55 One more thing i did to the vocals which was significant:
Philip R. Rice: 1:28:09 Leo did a great job of providing different regional dialects for the two characters, but the timbre of voice was very similar for the two. Timbre is very hard for someone to change and still sound natural. So I aided this by emphasizing / de-emphasizing certain frequency bands in the two characters, giving them just a bit more distinction in tone.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:28:47 yeah, I noticed that right away. that was great
tfstall: 1:28:52 How did hearing the new sound mix effect your (Leo) own take on the film? Was it all love or somewhat scary as a sole author giving up some of his work?
Jason Choi: 1:28:53 i had no idea the two voices were done by doc until i was told so
Philip R. Rice: 1:28:58 I was going to pitch shift the bound guy, but I couldn't do it even one semitone without hearing artifacts.
Ricky Grove: 1:29:18
Same with me. I didn't know they were the same actor until the credits.
Ricky Grove: 1:29:51 ah..great idea to just adjust frequencies.. just as effective.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:30:03 The new sound mix made the film seem different, although I knew the film itself was unchanged. honestly I was a little skeptical or maybe ignorant of the effect it would have 1nce Overman did it
Ingrid Moon: 1:30:18 me either - g r e a t j o b - both the acting AND the different dialects/characters
Ricky Grove: 1:30:32 Ok.
Philip R. Rice: 1:30:45 Thanks for the opportunity, Leo.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:30:55 NP
Jason Choi: 1:31:02 fantastic job to everyone involved with Beast's audio work!
Ricky Grove: 1:31:08
I've got one last little comment and question and then we'll open up the questions to the floor.
tfstall: 1:31:15 (oops)
Ricky Grove: 1:31:59 All three of us were impressed with this film, as I've said. I was most impressed with the story because the story Leo created puts the viewer in an ethical bind. As the title suggests
Ricky Grove: 1:32:04 BEAST (singular)
Ricky Grove: 1:32:40 we don't know who the beast in the film actually is. So the viewer is left seeing themselves in the story (like a mirror) which I think is a wonderful accomplishment
Ricky Grove: 1:32:55 especially in machinma, an art form not known for great scripts
tfstall: 1:33:09 *looks over shoulder*
Ricky Grove: 1:33:20 What are your thoughts on the script, leo?
Dr. Nemesis: 1:33:37
well, for a start, I had no idea the script would be admired
futsin: 1:33:49 I did when you told me. ;P
Dr. Nemesis: 1:34:09 My biggest priority at the time of writting was to NOT allow the conversation between the two men get boring
Dr. Nemesis: 1:34:57 that was the biggest pitfall so I tried to devide it into segments that I thought would keep the interest
Dr. Nemesis: 1:35:20 it was simply: Introduction, Banter, Reveal, Revenge
Dr. Nemesis: 1:35:48 At the time I was writing it I had a firm Idea Who I thought the Beast was
tfstall: 1:35:57 the pacing is great, that "everything" hits perfectly.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:36:04 bearing in mind the audience HAD to be able to make their own choice
Dr. Nemesis: 1:36:10
Dr. Nemesis: 1:36:13 I'm quite confused now
Dr. Nemesis: 1:36:39 it's any1's guess as to who the Beast is (u can only pick 1 )
Ricky Grove: 1:37:07 You did point in a certain direction though by having a flashback to the mans family.
Tom Jantol: 1:37:11 hi, all. this is what I call good movie. I am impressed.
Ricky Grove: 1:37:39 Hi, Tom. Thanks for joing us. Hold on a minute, we're about to open up the floor to questions.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:38:11 Oh yes, I think I did use the flashbacks to really hit home the severity of 'Skiff's actions'
Dr. Nemesis: 1:38:46 however, the relentlessness that suddenly emerges from the man, which I think is what shocks people, is what raises the question
Dr. Nemesis: 1:39:04
and stops it from being as simple
Dr. Nemesis: 1:39:12 as it would normally.
Ricky Grove: 1:39:14 Mmm...
Ricky Grove: 1:39:31 Were you concerned about how the killing of the other man would be perceived?
Dr. Nemesis: 1:39:39 Oh hell yes
Dr. Nemesis: 1:39:46 that was a MASSIVE problem for me
Dr. Nemesis: 1:40:16 I didnt want that part to be viewd as gratuitous or anything that would bring on a kind of "oh that looks gamey" feel
Dr. Nemesis: 1:40:35 it had to be at least partly justified by the story
Dr. Nemesis: 1:40:58
I also at the time thought it would be a shame if it couldnt be shown at some fests because of the violence
Dr. Nemesis: 1:41:26 as a result I made the stabbing and gunshot happen away from our view
Dr. Nemesis: 1:41:33 we dont see the knife go in et
Dr. Nemesis: 1:41:34 c
Dr. Nemesis: 1:41:53 and I now think that made it more powerful as the viewers imagination fills that in
Dr. Nemesis: 1:42:12 and thats obviously better than any detail I can show them
Ingrid Moon: 1:42:15 yes.
Ricky Grove: 1:42:19 Yes. Well, you've done a masterful job. There is no sense of a "gamey" feel at all. As Phil points out in his blog, this film's depiction of violence is a kind of milestone for machininima. I believe that as well.
Ingrid Moon: 1:42:45
it's a technique most new filmmakers forget - esp. in this world where we love to watch the gratuitous stuff.
Ricky Grove: 1:43:19 Ok. Why don't we open up the questions to the floor. Does anyone have questions they'd like to ask Leo about the film?
futsin: 1:43:28 Tons.
Ingrid Moon: 1:43:29 Todd.
Ingrid Moon: 1:43:32 then Chris.
tfstall: 1:44:06 First, Can you give us a rundown of software used, engines?
tfstall: 1:44:13 and post stuff.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:44:42 The film was made in Motionbuilder. A program which some people have heard me say is the ULTIMATE Machinima tool.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:44:55
there's 2 great reasons its not commonly used
Dr. Nemesis: 1:45:14 1 it needs some animation knowledge, which many of us don't have
Dr. Nemesis: 1:45:30 and secondly its highly expensive to buy brand new, or even second hand
Dr. Nemesis: 1:45:46 the other important tool was Reallusion's Crazy Talk
Dr. Nemesis: 1:45:54 using this tool for Machinima isnt new
tfstall: 1:46:03 (the camera moves during the visceral punch sequence... was that all in engine?)
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:19 however I was able to come up with a unique way to use it in Motionbuilder that game a new angle
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:26 no pun intended
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:30
oh and yes
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:40 MOST of what you saw was in engine
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:49 the sound effects were added in post
Dr. Nemesis: 1:46:57 as was the fade at the end
tfstall: 1:47:10 the moves were great. also the rotating shot around the monlogues.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:47:14 no green-screen needed
Tom Jantol: 1:47:19 congratulation for bravery. MB is hard to learn.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:47:19 thanks
Dr. Nemesis: 1:47:54 Thanks. I've been fiddling with it for ages, but only recently got the balls to make a film in it
Jason Choi: 1:48:25 i must point out that animating a camera like Doc did, is no easy task
Jason Choi: 1:48:37 so he gets major kudos from me!
JOHNMARTIN2: 1:48:54 Excellent CrazyTalk execution
futsin: 1:49:00 Agreed, Jason. Seconded. That was one of the film's finest achievements, that POV shot.
Ricky Grove: 1:49:02 I agree
tfstall: 1:49:07 thats what made the film really special for me, the pov stuff.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:49:16 that shot nearly came out
Dr. Nemesis: 1:49:32 Like I already said, I didnt know HOW violent to make it
Dr. Nemesis: 1:49:43
and that was teetering on the edge
Ricky Grove: 1:49:46 Well, the slow dolly pan during the fellows speech about how his child was killed was outstanding as well.
Ricky Grove: 1:50:51 JM2, I was agreeing about the CT use.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:51:10 I REALLY do hope that the use of CT can catch on bigger
Dr. Nemesis: 1:51:28 it's as liberating a tool as having our free roaming cameras
Dr. Nemesis: 1:51:38 IMO
Jason Choi: 1:51:42 how difficult was it to use CT on a moving animation? the last time i used it, it wasn't as easy as you made it look
futsin: 1:51:44 I hope people don't mind my saying this, but I also want to point out I find that the fact Doc was actually able to gauge his control on how violent the movie ended up being. I've found Machinima, in any sense, to be a medium where control is a give 'n' take, just like real life, and many times we have no control over how much our content hits the audience. It's something to be aware of and commend Doc for I think, that he could sense that.
Ricky Grove: 1:52:12 right on the money, futsin.
futsin: 1:52:27 (I know my stuff always goes overboard into parody or disgust )
Dr. Nemesis: 1:52:32 yeah, I'm very puzzled about that 1 myself but I can try and address it
Dr. Nemesis: 1:52:55 I've never before made a film were everything people came back and applauded me for was intentional
futsin: 1:53:19 Hah. Well, you may want to answer Jason's question first. ^_^
Ricky Grove: 1:53:22 *applause* *intentional*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:53:38 this was a first, and I dont know if its in the time I took to make sure the film was as close to reality as it was in my head, OR if I just got lucky
Dr. Nemesis: 1:54:06 maybe I'm such an angry guy that pain and fury is the only thing I can truly communicate, hehe
Ingrid Moon: 1:54:19 lol
futsin: 1:54:22 I also think it's that you mastered comedy so well.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:54:27 as for Jason's question
Ingrid Moon: 1:54:31 I think it fuels your creativity is all
Dr. Nemesis: 1:54:33 (sorry Jason)
Dr. Nemesis: 1:55:05 Motionbuilder allows a nifty thing
Dr. Nemesis: 1:55:11 that I can now reveal
Dr. Nemesis: 1:55:18 it allows video textures
Jason Choi: 1:55:28
futsin: 1:55:31 Oh for a second I was going to ask if it was deals with the devil.
Dr. Nemesis: 1:55:39 if anyone know how lip syncing is done in Q2, its done by changing skins really fast
Ricky Grove: 1:55:41 hee hee
Dr. Nemesis: 1:55:55 so you had maybe 5 skins
Dr. Nemesis: 1:56:29 with different phonemes on them. My intention was to use CT to MAKE the phoneme skins, as previously that required a skilled artists to make them in photoshop
Dr. Nemesis: 1:56:37 Bouncers had way too many characters
Dr. Nemesis: 1:57:15 so the lip synch skins suffered but CT could make them perfectly and quickly
Dr. Nemesis: 1:57:32
then I remembered the video texture ability. I never thought it would work
Dr. Nemesis: 1:57:43 but it did, in Meet the heavy Spoof
Dr. Nemesis: 1:57:48 the rest u know, hehe
Jason Choi: 1:57:57 interesting technique
Jason Choi: 1:58:20 and clever, i might add
futsin: 1:58:34 indeed
Dr. Nemesis: 1:58:47 as for anger fuelling me
Dr. Nemesis: 1:58:53 I cant argue, Ingrid
Dr. Nemesis: 1:59:10 I imagine many people are the same though, hehe
Ricky Grove: 1:59:26 *raises hand*
Dr. Nemesis: 1:59:29 lol
Dr. Nemesis: 1:59:36 yeah, I seen u on forums, lol
Jason Choi: 1:59:39 me too
Tom Jantol: 2:00:04 I AM anger
Dr. Nemesis: 2:00:14 well that takes me off that hook nicely
Ricky Grove: 2:00:23 Any other thoughts about the film? or questions?
Ricky Grove: 2:00:58 I've got one.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:02
Jason Choi: 2:01:05 what's next for binary picture show?
Ricky Grove: 2:01:11 How did you handle the dual roles in acting?
futsin: 2:01:16 Still got many. Hopefully I remember them.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:17 ok.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:18 Jason first
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:23 I got no clue
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:26 a happy film
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:33 with ecstasy galore
Jason Choi: 2:01:36 with bunnies and rainbows?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:01:49 oh hell yeah, and cherubs
Dr. Nemesis: 2:02:01 Ricky
Jason Choi: 2:02:02 im not watching that
Dr. Nemesis: 2:02:10 The dual Roles nearly killed me
Dr. Nemesis: 2:02:30 I'm not an actor, so I refused to have anyone in the room while acting
Ingrid Moon: 2:02:54 (can relate to that sometimes)
futsin: 2:02:59 Bet your girlfriend was happy bout that, Doc.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:03:02
even my little bro who I had for emotional support (as well as film assistance) while I was making it
Dr. Nemesis: 2:03:32 so I had to make it easy
Dr. Nemesis: 2:03:52 I thought different accents would automatically get me in the 2 different moods
Dr. Nemesis: 2:04:27 the accents are as different as I would have liked, but the most important thing is always for people to be able to understand them
Dr. Nemesis: 2:04:37 which it seemed worked for 1nce
Ingrid Moon: 2:04:42 yes that was sometimes a problem for Bouncers
futsin: 2:04:51 Oi! Don't be dissin' Bouncers.
Ricky Grove: 2:04:57 I'll say it worked. And HOW...
why the switch of engines during the flashback? was it an economy of time issue?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:04:59 I think Bouncers taught me a lot, hehe
Ingrid Moon: 2:05:02 I already told him that long ago
Ricky Grove: 2:05:19 good question, Todd. Me, too...
Ricky Grove: 2:05:29 sims2, right?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:05:43 oh HELL YEAH!!
futsin: 2:05:47 After the engine question I got one more on the storyline element and from a writing perspective. Just FYI so I can get my foot in the door there.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:05:49 economy of time
Dr. Nemesis: 2:05:59
Dr. Nemesis: 2:06:20 I havent made a "stock" Machinima film in a very long time
Dr. Nemesis: 2:06:29 I always like to customize
Dr. Nemesis: 2:06:48 I spent years learning how to handle 3d models (not necesserily make them) for this purpose
Frank Fox: 2:06:55 Great Movie, Doc!
Friedrich Kirschner: 2:06:56 hey guys, just saying that i'm sorting through this and just saw the movie
Friedrich Kirschner: 2:07:08 congrats doc! Well done!
Ricky Grove: 2:07:14 Frank Fox has just joined us. Welcome, Frank. Alng with Friedrich..
Jason Choi: 2:07:21 welcome guys
Dr. Nemesis: 2:07:22 Beast was furnished with Turbosquid models (for characters) and some other DEAD CHEAP models and free stuff from the net
Frank Fox: 2:07:34 Hi all!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:07:45 but there was no way I was going to make a whole house and 4 new characters for those short flashbacks
Dr. Nemesis: 2:07:49 +
Dr. Nemesis: 2:07:51 +++++
Dr. Nemesis: 2:08:21 I thought it would actually tug at the heart strings more to show those bastardly cute Sims 2 characters
Dr. Nemesis: 2:08:26 especially the girl
Dr. Nemesis: 2:08:38 I made sure her eyes were nice and big for that reason
Frank Fox: 2:08:43 I liked the mix of the two engines
Dr. Nemesis: 2:09:11 thanks Fred and frank
Jason Choi: 2:09:31 lol fred
Frank Fox: 2:09:40 The camera work when he was getting punched was breathtaking!
Ingrid Moon: 2:09:54 Any other questions before I start in?
Jason Choi: 2:10:07 i have a related question to the sims comment
futsin: 2:10:11 I got one more.
Ingrid Moon: 2:10:11 go
Ingrid Moon: 2:10:14 go go
Ricky Grove: 2:10:27 We were talking about that earlier. I think the simplicity of the earlier shots (simple set ups, strait cuts) really made those camera movements have more weight and meaning.
Frank Fox: 2:10:34 Did you have a special renderer to get that posterized look or was it done in post?
Jason Choi: 2:10:47 the fact that you used motionbuilder, makes your film 100% owned by you, legally speaking
futsin: 2:10:53 Nevermind, I guess I'll bug Leo about it later.
Ricky Grove: 2:11:08 No. please ask away, Futsin.
Jason Choi: 2:11:12 but now that you used sims 2 in there, its no longer the case - did you think about this when deciding to use sims 2?
logging response for legal team
Dr. Nemesis: 2:11:34 well, maybe. despite the amount of work I did in it, it was still very co-operative
Dr. Nemesis: 2:11:51 the Music is done by other guys
Dr. Nemesis: 2:12:01 1 of them a Hollywood composer
Dr. Nemesis: 2:12:07 and yes, I got permission
Dr. Nemesis: 2:12:28 Answering frank, the posterized look was done in engine
Tom Jantol: 2:12:28 I wasn't sure am I (the viewer) puncher or get punched. Powerfull shot.
Ricky Grove: 2:12:31 Forgot to add how much I liked the musc. How appropriate for this difficult subject. Guitar at end...great choice.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:12:55
again very difficult to decide
Dr. Nemesis: 2:13:13 I opted NOT to use a song from my CD collection
Dr. Nemesis: 2:13:14 hehe
Dr. Nemesis: 2:13:24 well
Frank Fox: 2:13:27 stepping out for a sec! business and fire evac prep
futsin: 2:13:30 Well, my question has to do with the script and its sense of pace, its leanness. When it came down to the structure, you were very specific about putting what most movies do in a 90 minute feature into less than ten minutes. What I liked about this was the fact you nailed the key pieces without the fluff or "extra texture." It's like a minimalist art piece. My question is how did you go about putting those pieces together in the dialogue, and pacing yourself? Is it natural, instinctually crafted (meaning half out-the-ass, half-wellthought), or is it meticulously planned piece-by-piece? (phew, big one, sorry )
Dr. Nemesis: 2:13:32 nobody buys CD's nomo but u know what I mean
Ingrid Moon: 2:14:16 Beats in scriptwriting (and acting) is an art form into itself.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:14:21 its planned but not piece by piece
futsin: 2:14:29 General idea and roll with it?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:14:34 In my mind the film only had 2 paces
Dr. Nemesis: 2:14:43 the talking and the beating
Dr. Nemesis: 2:15:01 I think ultimely the minute timing was down to the nature of the characters
Dr. Nemesis: 2:15:19 The man (not tied) had spent a year trying to find skiff so had a lot of patience
Dr. Nemesis: 2:15:31 he was in no hurry to get his thing done
Dr. Nemesis: 2:15:57 Skiff was veteraned , or hardend to violence
Dr. Nemesis: 2:16:13
he had to be calm and slow to show he wasnt afraid
Dr. Nemesis: 2:16:33 I think that was the entire reasoning behind that pace
Frank Fox: 2:16:35 I'm back! Hi, Michelle!
futsin: 2:16:58 So, just to clarify your answer, you mean that it was dictated by the characters' personalities and reactions to the situation?
futsin: 2:17:10 That's what I'm getting I just wanna make sure I'm not misunderstanding you
Frank Fox: 2:17:11 Doc, you packed a lot of story into a small timeframe, and did a fantastic job!
Paul Marino: 2:17:27 howdy all
Jason Choi: 2:17:38 hey paul
Ricky Grove: 2:17:41
Hi, Paul. Glad you could join us!
Paul Marino: 2:17:51 Same here!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:18:08 Thanks frank.. Yes futsin. I have mention to you before that if these things can right themselves they feel natural
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:18:09 Hi Paul
Dr. Nemesis: 2:18:25 so I tried to let the situation dictate most of it
futsin: 2:18:37 Cool, thanks dude. Good answer.
Ingrid Moon: 2:19:10 You said earlier that the script had four parts - I think that sums it up nicely. Breaking it down into those pieces kept your dialog from going astray.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:19:30 Yeah, I'm not sure, but I think I always do that when writing
Ingrid Moon: 2:19:46
as well you should. good less for us all
Frank Fox: 2:19:56 The camera's movement in reaction to the punch is a mystery to me. I can never get that kind of smooth changes of direction back and forth with a game camera. Is thatkind of smoothing done in post?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:20:20 no I would say 98% of the film is in engine
Ricky Grove: 2:20:27 Did you do much improvising as you were acting the roles?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:20:34 sound effects were added in post
Dr. Nemesis: 2:20:47 and 1 blend at the end
Dr. Nemesis: 2:21:12 OH no I dont do improv very well, I think
Dr. Nemesis: 2:21:44 I'm a big fan of staying as close to the script as possible, so Once I was happy with it, I stuck hard
Ricky Grove: 2:21:45
So, everything you said came from your script?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:22:00 there were about 2 words changed at record time
Dr. Nemesis: 2:22:01 so yeah
Dr. Nemesis: 2:22:10 1 was that it rhymed
Dr. Nemesis: 2:22:23 for some reason it didnt ring that bad in my ear when writing it
Frank Fox: 2:22:24 I guess I only have GTA/CamHack as an experience. That camera movement is abrupt when changing direction. This was eased in and out. I hope I'm not being confusing
Dr. Nemesis: 2:22:50 and there was another action chunk that was changed
Jason Choi: 2:22:52 frank, the engine that Doc used was a professional animation tool
Dr. Nemesis: 2:23:05
thank goodness it was changed for the better
Dr. Nemesis: 2:23:18 the shock punch was not written that way in script
Frank Fox: 2:23:20 Ah!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:23:27 but seemed right when I was animating
Frank Fox: 2:23:46 That gives me an idea!
Tom Jantol: 2:24:07 Motionbuilder can be tricky; you can do with camera whatever you want. But to have discipline like you did, this is really something.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:24:17 If any1 has any animating experience
Dr. Nemesis: 2:24:18 ...
I do. Slightly.
Jason Choi: 2:24:35 i agree, which is why i pointed out that doc MUST be commended and recognized for his leet animation skills
futsin: 2:24:49 Oh and my mom liked it!
Frank Fox: 2:24:52 I've been using Cinema 4D for six years, but mostly for still work
Dr. Nemesis: 2:25:18 there are generally 3 types of movement. one is sharp movements between keyframes, one is smooth, and the other is a snap. like teleportation
Dr. Nemesis: 2:25:37 ultra camera control requires all 3 abilities
Jason Choi: 2:25:43 doc- was there a specific reason for the contrast between the characters and the backdrop? how the characters were cel-shaded but the background set was not?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:25:46 if u lack one you will maybe have compromise
Ricky Grove: 2:26:03
I was thinking the same thing, jason.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:26:14 that was unfortunately not a "deep" choice
Dr. Nemesis: 2:26:43 I like cartoons. that was the first reason. the other was literally just because I wanted a contrast
Dr. Nemesis: 2:27:09 I wanted that audience to use different thought process when examining the characters
Dr. Nemesis: 2:27:11 and the set
Frank Fox: 2:28:09 It worked for me. It had a nice 2d feel like Futurama would dip into when switching to action shots
Jason Choi: 2:28:14 i liked the contrast
Jason Choi: 2:28:18 worked very well
Philip R. Rice: 2:28:23
Ricky Grove: 2:28:25 me, too.
Jason Choi: 2:28:25 without being to obnoxious
Jason Choi: 2:28:41 just felt right, without being able to explain it
Dr. Nemesis: 2:28:45 also it had an added bonus
futsin: 2:28:51 I think it also helped the backdrop not become too eye-catching. You can feel the texture of it, but you don't have to pay attention too much.
Friedrich Kirschner: 2:28:57 i'm always a big fan of abstraction - did you try out different versions?
Ingrid Moon: 2:29:01 It was distracting to me but that's my problem.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:29:15
Ricky called it a "cartoon" in 1 comment, I think. it helps lead the audience into a false sense of security
futsin: 2:29:26 Absolutely.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:29:33 u dont really expect such a thing from a film that looks like this
Dr. Nemesis: 2:29:46 so that adds to the shock
Jason Choi: 2:29:50 thats very true as well
Ricky Grove: 2:30:03 Precisely. Elmer doesn't really KILL Bugs, right?
Jason Choi: 2:30:04 the look of the film adds its own pacing to the story
Jason Choi: 2:30:08 very cool
Ingrid Moon: 2:30:21
I also wanted a prolongued revenge - not necessarily showing the violence on screen, or even a longer sequence, but jsut something that let you know Skiff suffered as badly as possible.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:30:37 Friedrich, unfortunately I didnt have time to experiment with other ways of showing it
futsin: 2:30:38 It's hands down your best work, Doc. You've made nothing short of a masterpiece.
Frank Fox: 2:30:44 I too think the Skiff got off too easy
Ricky Grove: 2:30:58 Bravo! I'm standing up at my computer!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:30:59 lol
Ingrid Moon: 2:31:04 way too easy
futsin: 2:31:06 Well, Ingrid makes an interesting point about elongating the process of pain.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:31:07
Skiff could have suffered more, yes
Dr. Nemesis: 2:31:16 that might be my bad for making it a short film
Dr. Nemesis: 2:31:20 I didnt want it to be longer
futsin: 2:31:24 One comment I say though, is I think its length is fine.
Ingrid Moon: 2:31:25 i didn't have the same sense of ambiguity either
Dr. Nemesis: 2:31:29 so maybe I could have made them talk less
Ingrid Moon: 2:31:29 as everyone else
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:31:32 BEAST accomplished something else for me beyond the visual achievement. I could see this being staged live. This script could stand as an animation or live performance. The character's emotion in the animation made something non-photorealistic become very real.
Jason Choi: 2:31:33
i disagree... the brevity of it was what was powerful about it
futsin: 2:31:46 The reason is that I think in the end, whether he got the right guy or not is irrelevent to him.
Ingrid Moon: 2:31:47 yes, the brevity, but not the severity
futsin: 2:31:49 It's closure.
Jason Choi: 2:32:04 i agree with more severity
Ingrid Moon: 2:32:10 the gunshot... would rather the dad had slit skiff's throat and let him gurgle there whiel the guitar fades in.
Ingrid Moon: 2:32:18 all in the sound.
Ingrid Moon: 2:32:30 its closure.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:32:35
The gunshot was his medal
Dr. Nemesis: 2:32:40 I had to keep that
Ricky Grove: 2:32:41 Great point, JM2. I remember the stage play "Death and the Maiden" had a similar situation. Yes, this could work on stage (with more buildup)
Frank Fox: 2:32:45 I think it was a good length. I was just rooting for the revenge to be sweet. That's a testiment to how you drew me into the plot!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:32:48 I idnt want a slit throat medal
Dr. Nemesis: 2:32:50 hehe
Philip R. Rice: 2:32:51 I was more impacted by the suffering of the man getting his revenge, and the overwhelming feeling that this act will do nothing for him.
Ingrid Moon: 2:32:59 that's fine, shoot his kneecap off! okay enough of that. I'm just expressing some alternate poitn of view here
futsin: 2:33:01 It's just that he's looked for a year tracking this piece of s*** down and he just wants him done and out of life. I understand the idea of wanting to just end it.
Ingrid Moon: 2:33:09 good point, phil
futsin: 2:33:14 Agreed Phil.
Ingrid Moon: 2:33:35 I also liked the beginning, the "who am I" sequence, because I fully expected a criminal vs. criminal situation.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:33:38 I think its great that u feel that way ingrid
Philip R. Rice: 2:33:43 As far as I'm concerned, he's the Beast. And tragically so.
futsin: 2:33:47 I think even in its subtle method of destruction (well, as subtle as a beating, stabbing, and shooting is), there's a lot of the two-lane street of the brutality and futility of revenge.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:33:50 the thing is, some people have told me the WOULDNT have killed him
Dr. Nemesis: 2:33:55 if u can believe that
Dr. Nemesis: 2:34:12 Part of the question is what YOU would do
Jason Choi: 2:34:23 so i guess skiff is the Beauty
futsin: 2:34:23 I wouldn't have killed him. I would've injured him severely. Paralyzed him physically in the same way I would be emotionally paralyzed. But that's me.
futsin: 2:34:28 HAHAHAHAHA
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:34:30 Any signifigance to 13 punches?
Ingrid Moon: 2:34:34 to leave that question open, you end after the beating, no revenge taken.
Ricky Grove: 2:34:34 It's another testament to your script that people can debate the ideas/ethics of it.
Philip R. Rice: 2:34:35 lol
Ingrid Moon: 2:34:49 the debate aspect is why i'm piping in now
Ingrid Moon: 2:34:59 it's one of the things I like most about this film
Philip R. Rice: 2:35:05 Me too, Ingrid.
Ingrid Moon: 2:35:07 especially since I generally hate talking head movies.
futsin: 2:35:14 I think at the same time, everyone's right. It's not something that can truly be debated. It's a subjective, individual thing.
Ricky Grove: 2:35:24 a mirror to the viewer.
futsin: 2:35:27 RIght.
Frank Fox: 2:35:27 You put what you want in and take what you want out. That is it's power for me
Philip R. Rice: 2:35:28 I think that's exactly right, Chris.
Ingrid Moon: 2:35:38 it makes you think. it makes you feel. and that is what makes it good.
futsin: 2:35:44 (God, it's great to talk to real geeks again, haven't done this in years)
Ben: 2:35:49 this discussion sounds like what Val Kilmer was trying to say to Robin on his pursuit to revenage in Batman Forever.. if I'm not mistaken.
Ben: 2:35:54 quite chilling.
Ingrid Moon: 2:35:54 you can't walk away without being changed inside, even slightly, just to think "what woudl I have done?"
futsin: 2:36:13 And Ingrid, that's a great and powerful concept that I agree was put into the flick.
Ingrid Moon: 2:36:18 anything batman says has merit in my book.
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:36:22 WWBD - what would beast do?
futsin: 2:36:28 Revenge movies typically get that kind of reaction out of people.
futsin: 2:36:33 "what would I do?"
Ingrid Moon: 2:36:36 yes and no...
Dr. Nemesis: 2:36:38 EXACTLY
futsin: 2:36:54 Uh oh, we've made him so happy he put on caps lock
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:00 lol
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:05
but u see what I mean
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:10 you have to be in the room
futsin: 2:37:11 We're your fans, Doc.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:13 with them
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:22 or with "him"
Ingrid Moon: 2:37:23 i don't like revenge movies. i like this. I think its brevity and poignant story make it so much more tolerable and ethically questionable and impactful.
futsin: 2:37:31 Very true.
Frank Fox: 2:37:34 I had no idea until the end that you did both roles, Leo. Damned fine acting!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:37
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:40 I dont like torture
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:44 like in Hard Candy
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:51 or passion of the Christ
futsin: 2:37:53 Ugh, what a boring film. >_>
Dr. Nemesis: 2:37:56 so I cant make that
futsin: 2:38:14 It's a subject matter that could be turned into an exploitation movie (and lord knows I've done it more than once that way), you have to be able to give it some weight and poignancy that speaks very personally to make it work.
Ingrid Moon: 2:38:38 and its personal all right
Dr. Nemesis: 2:39:02
I saw Hostel
Dr. Nemesis: 2:39:07 thought it went a bit far
Dr. Nemesis: 2:39:12 hehe
futsin: 2:39:13 Oh great, here we go, more Hostel hate.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:39:21 so I couldnt do crazy torture
Frank Fox: 2:39:24 You said Saw
Dr. Nemesis: 2:39:29 but I think I *could* do it in real life
Ricky Grove: 2:39:34 saw SAW hostile Hostel
Ingrid Moon: 2:39:37 the story of the cops hovering, the wife lingering... that makes the whole sense of justice
akward... of course he needs to take matters into his own hands...
Frank Fox: 2:39:51 Saw went a bit too far for me
futsin: 2:40:05 Saw was badass, what are you talking about? (then again, I'm a horror nut)
Dr. Nemesis: 2:40:29 Ingrid, I put that in as a simple device to REMOVE the law
Ingrid Moon: 2:40:30 I really really hate torture porn and think all torture porn movies should be relegated to a status on par with "XXX", and that hollywood should stop making them.
Frank Fox: 2:40:41 It had a nice twist at the end.
Ingrid Moon: 2:40:43 yes it was an EXCELLENT device, Doc
Dr. Nemesis: 2:40:44 so that there would be a need to do it YOURSELF
Please, let's not get into that whole torture porn thing. Honestly.
Ricky Grove: 2:40:56 My question is, "How do we know the man who murders in the little room has the right man?" "How do we know he isn't crazy?"
Ricky Grove: 2:41:08 in BEAST, I mean.
futsin: 2:41:09 But, anyway, in terms of making it exploitation, I think when you're dealing with genre material, that just happens everywhere. Gangster/Cop stories, revenge stories, horror stories, sci-fi stories. You have to add the human quality to it. Stories were originally intended not just to thrill the imagination, when you go back to Greek Myths it's a lot of stories on very deep topics. So when you're doing essentially the modern equivelant, since we, as filmmakers, are new storytellers who have to take that same kind of depth that the old Myths did. It has to have that same personal touch.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:41:20 Ricky
futsin: 2:41:23 I don't doubt the people who helped craft many of the old Myths were people who had similar metaphorical events occur to them.
Philip R. Rice: 2:41:24 Really really REALLY great question, Ricky.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:41:31
I guess thats something u could think about
Jason Choi: 2:41:39 hehe
Dr. Nemesis: 2:41:40 For me he was the right man
Ricky Grove: 2:41:44 We only have his word for it.
tfstall: 2:41:50 On a meta level its interesting to me... borrowing the videogame aesthetic to raise a question of schlock violence. It's the max payne setup holding up the Charles Bronson Deathwish ethic for question.
Ricky Grove: 2:41:52 and YOURS of course
Dr. Nemesis: 2:41:53 he didnt deny his name
Dr. Nemesis: 2:41:56 then again
Ingrid Moon: 2:41:56
And a potentially faulty memory... after such trauma.
Jason Choi: 2:41:57 like i said before! Skiff is about to say "im sorry" before he gets pwned
Dr. Nemesis: 2:42:04 AHHH!
Dr. Nemesis: 2:42:04 how do we know that was the first guys name
futsin: 2:42:16 Haha!
futsin: 2:42:20 Ambiguity rules.
Philip R. Rice: 2:42:31 AND... Skiff had already said he doesn't remember what he's done...
Ricky Grove: 2:42:33 Anyone would say I'm sorry in that situation, you know. Great comment, Todd
Dr. Nemesis: 2:42:39 Jason is right
Ricky Grove: 2:42:41 Yes, ambiguity.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:42:44 its in the apology for me
Ingrid Moon: 2:42:49 "I'm sorry... that you had such a tragedy, but I still don't know what you're talking about..." could have ensued
Dr. Nemesis: 2:42:56 but its incomplete
Jason Choi: 2:42:57 but then again, he couldve been saying "im sorry but i really need to pee"
Ricky Grove: 2:43:02 Fascinating.
Philip R. Rice: 2:43:06 The great thing is, Doc, it works either way.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:43:06 so yeah unknown wonders
Ricky Grove: 2:43:17 The author sides with the killer, but the actual film is ambiguous.
Frank Fox: 2:43:21 He admitted he was a scumbac every day for a living. That was enough for me
Frank Fox: 2:43:29 scumbag I mean
Ricky Grove: 2:43:34 Frank....nah..come on.
Ingrid Moon: 2:43:36 It's the open-ness of it all that makes it so wonderful!
futsin: 2:43:55 It's like Silent Hill, except there won't be a sequel.
Jason Choi: 2:43:59 he was a scumbag but there's no proof that he killed anyone
Dr. Nemesis: 2:44:03 k
Dr. Nemesis: 2:44:03
I like that Fran
Dr. Nemesis: 2:44:07 and I agree
Ingrid Moon: 2:44:12 no proof that he was that much of a scumbag
Dr. Nemesis: 2:44:13 He admitted to a crazy way of living
Jason Choi: 2:44:17 right
tfstall: 2:44:34 Okay okay, if I can be critical a bit here. The flashbacks feel heavy handed. It dilutes the argument a bit for me, and gives the audience alot of room to forgive the 13 punches.
Ingrid Moon: 2:44:45 there's no proof, no proof, no proof -- only assumptions, innuendos, and the author's pov
Frank Fox: 2:44:54 that's the risk of vigilantism.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:45:14
Dr. Nemesis: 2:45:19 we've all seen Memento I take it
Philip R. Rice: 2:45:26 Yes indeed.
futsin: 2:45:27 But hang on a tick, Stall, what about the fact the flashbacks are never clearly labeled as either the person's memories, imagination (could be he's schizo), us (the third party) witnessing the facts, or even the imagination of the tied up man?
Jason Choi: 2:45:28 yea
Ricky Grove: 2:45:28 si!
futsin: 2:45:30 Yeah Memento
Frank Fox: 2:45:30 OJ's in jail
tfstall: 2:45:50 ahh, the convention of flashbacks are pretty established chris.
Ricky Grove: 2:46:03 I think it's pretty clearly indicated in the film that the flashbacks are the killers. He's in the middle of telling the story.
tfstall: 2:46:04 Im not given any reason to think he's schizo.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:46:10 In Mememto its a perfect example
Ingrid Moon: 2:46:17 It's not whether the incident would drive a man to insanity, Todd, but whether one should take the law into their own hands anyway, for closure or for revenge, and whether taking it against any beast is enough for that justice, or whether you need the right beast. And how it turns you into a beast yourself, to go that route down the dark path.
futsin: 2:46:21 I'm just throwing out possibilities, man.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:46:23 Memory can change the shape of a room, the colour of a car
Dr. Nemesis: 2:46:36 that shoulda been a quote
futsin: 2:46:44 Yes, heh.
futsin: 2:47:11 But what I mean is that the flashbacks I don't think dilute things, they're still a mysterious element to me.
Frank Fox: 2:47:12 I kinda figured the flashbacks were what was dawning on Skiff
futsin: 2:47:17 After Usual Suspects, I don't trust flashbacks.
Ingrid Moon: 2:47:20 it needs one more piece, doc... "... the smell of a woman."
Ingrid Moon: 2:47:25 now it's quotable
Dr. Nemesis: 2:47:27 Ingrid that was my initial "childish" synopsis. The story of how a normal guy turns bad
Jason Choi: 2:47:29 lol chris
Philip R. Rice: 2:47:41 I think if the flashbacks had been any longer, I'd be agreeing with Todd. But i thought their brevity - a notch above subliminal - made them work really well.
futsin: 2:47:45 lol indeed given the writer has the same name as me.
Ingrid Moon: 2:48:00 it's not childish at all.
futsin: 2:48:00 Yeah and I agree with Phil there. The length helps.
futsin: 2:48:11 He means embryonic I think
Ingrid Moon: 2:48:16 ok
Dr. Nemesis: 2:48:30 lol
Dr. Nemesis: 2:48:32 no, childish
Dr. Nemesis: 2:48:33 simple
Ricky Grove: 2:48:36 I agree with Phil. Without the information that supports the hero's (god what a stupid word) story, the revenge killing would simply
Ingrid Moon: 2:48:38 childLIKE
Ricky Grove: 2:48:38 be murder
Dr. Nemesis: 2:48:59 I'll take it
futsin: 2:49:09 What, a child?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:49:13 lol
Ricky Grove: 2:49:14 However, if it were my film to direct. I'd have cut the flashbacks. Makes the audience more uncomfortabel and levels the legitimacy of each
Ricky Grove: 2:49:19 of their stories.
tfstall: 2:49:22 But it sort of lets him off the hook?
futsin: 2:49:26 I expected there to be no flashbacks, honestly.
Ingrid Moon: 2:49:42 If it were my film, i'd have slit his throat and let him gurgle. Thank goodness it's not my film.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:49:50 well Ricky this is in post
Ricky Grove: 2:49:51 Not entirely, Todd.
Jason Choi: 2:49:58 if it were my film i wouldve blown his head into tiny chunks
Jason Choi: 2:50:04 fuck yea
Dr. Nemesis: 2:50:06 at the time of making the film, I had made many of these considerations but not all
futsin: 2:50:10 Yes Ingrid, thank goodness.
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:50:21 I was hoping for a Lady Mainframe cameo
Dr. Nemesis: 2:50:40 haha. not this time. she's a delicate flower
Ingrid Moon: 2:50:45 And Doc, what an achievement - every decision you made turns into something we can comment on, argue about, etc. - every single decision.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:50:53 I'm glad every1 has their own version
Frank Fox: 2:50:54 I'd have buried him alive in a box and spoke to him through a speaker
futsin: 2:50:54 True dat!
futsin: 2:51:07 I think what it comes down to though, we're talking about the subjective process of the filmmaker. We have this guy's awesome work and although we can definitely think about what we would do differently, the version that I feel has nailed it the best, is Doc's. Because it's his thing.
tfstall: 2:51:10 Yeah, Im only critical because its strong work.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:51:16 I would have actually kept him in my basement for a year
Dr. Nemesis: 2:51:18 and tortured him
Philip R. Rice: 2:51:21 They don't add any details to what the killer is describing, merely give the briefest of illustration from his fading memory. They do tip the balance a bit, I'll admit. But for me, it didn't make the murder any less disturbing.
Ricky Grove: 2:51:27 Yes. The idea that these little bits of animated color and some sounds could have us debating ethics is a tribute to how good this film is.
Jason Choi: 2:51:44
futsin: 2:51:47 It's all about the heart and where it comes from.
Frank Fox: 2:52:04 I like the film the way it was. Just chatting abou twhat I would have done to someone who murdered my family
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:52:09 A true milestone... thank you Leo.
futsin: 2:52:12 I'm still amazed that after hearing Leo talk about this, now seeing it done, I mean I knew people were gonna love it, but I'm overjoyed to see a great filmmaker get his due credit.
Ricky Grove: 2:52:20 And some sense of how frustrated we all are with our courts and the sense of justice with the police.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:52:35 No thank you all
Ingrid Moon: 2:52:37 in the UK and US... and elsewhere I'm sure.
No no no, thank YOU.
Ingrid Moon: 2:52:48 One other thing
Ingrid Moon: 2:52:52 regarding justice
Ricky Grove: 2:52:54 Congratulations, Leo!
Ingrid Moon: 2:53:01 I think of this all the time because of the conflict in the middle east
tfstall: 2:53:04 yeah, cheers man. good luck at the festivals.
Frank Fox: 2:53:06 Golf clap!
Ingrid Moon: 2:53:21 in western culture we RELY on justice from our government
Ingrid Moon: 2:53:27 we don't take matters into our own hands
futsin: 2:53:35 We used to.
Ingrid Moon: 2:53:44 we gain closure not by killing someone but by watching them get sentenced to life in prison or sometimes far less
Frank Fox: 2:53:44 Not that we'd admit
Ingrid Moon: 2:54:00 ok we did once but we have evolved, no?
tfstall: 2:54:04 but, ingrid, its a common american white male fantasy.. we see explored in film over and over again.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:54:05 yeah, justice in itself is a subjective term
Ricky Grove: 2:54:28 What other options are there, though?
Frank Fox: 2:54:31 Superman is the epitome of the scrawny guy's need to get even
Ingrid Moon: 2:54:32 and I think about why it is so hard for us to understand why Iraqis kill Iraqis and so on and so on... and it's because they don't have that in their culture.
tfstall: 2:54:33 deathwish, falling down, and some new bad kevin bacon movie.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:54:48 I think Superman is the BEST tool for justice debates
Ingrid Moon: 2:54:58 male fantasy? you do not want to know what th efemale revenge fantasy is. ha!
Frank Fox: 2:55:04 no
Frank Fox: 2:55:08 please no
Jason Choi: 2:55:09 dude that kevin bacon movie looks awesome
futsin: 2:55:10 I Spit On Your Grave.
tfstall: 2:55:13 hard candy
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:15 LOL
futsin: 2:55:16 That's the female revenge fantasy.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:21 for real
Ricky Grove: 2:55:23 No, I spit on yours!
futsin: 2:55:24 "My name is Departure. DICK Departure."
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:25 castration
Frank Fox: 2:55:33 Bobbet
Ingrid Moon: 2:55:33
I'm just saying that in our culture we respect teh law. and what makes this film painful for me is that he isn't respecting the law.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:39 or so Freud would have us believe
Ingrid Moon: 2:55:43 and yet, he's taking it out on someone who doesn't EVER respect the law.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:58 ?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:55:58 He HAD to though, no
Dr. Nemesis: 2:56:09 is that not some kind of justice?
Ingrid Moon: 2:56:11 well yo umake it seem like he did
Ingrid Moon: 2:56:15 you set it up with your cop device
Ingrid Moon: 2:56:25
but what does that make us?
Frank Fox: 2:56:27 I didn't see this film as glorifying anything. Just a glimpse into the horror of two men in confrontation
futsin: 2:56:32 I think one of the greatest things revenge movies tell us, is that justice and doing the right thing is one of the hardest possible avenues of human existence.
Dr. Nemesis: 2:56:34 In reality how much justice is encarceration though?
futsin: 2:56:44 Uh oh.
Ingrid Moon: 2:56:48 it is, it is one of the hardest avenues of human existence!
Ricky Grove: 2:56:49 Nicely put, Frank.
futsin: 2:56:49 We're going to go into Capitol Punishment, aren't we?
Dr. Nemesis: 2:56:53
when the gloves come off
Ingrid Moon: 2:56:55 revenge is instinctive
tfstall: 2:57:03 its reptillian
Ingrid Moon: 2:57:05 if someone looks at my son the wrong way, the gloves come off.
futsin: 2:57:17 Hehe
Ingrid Moon: 2:57:20 wait. Maybe that's why I have a bad reputation in hockey.
Frank Fox: 2:57:24 We all have our price
futsin: 2:57:30 We also all have our limit.
Philip R. Rice: 2:57:36 Did the man get justice in this film?
futsin: 2:57:40 No.
tfstall: 2:57:53 he's still empty.
futsin: 2:57:56 I remember there was a line in Kill Bill, about how revenge is like a forest, one that you can get lost in.
Philip R. Rice: 2:57:58 YES.
Ingrid Moon: 2:58:01 Emptier, probably.
futsin: 2:58:03 I think he started with the point of justice, and lost that point.
futsin: 2:58:08 And lost himself even worse within it.
tfstall: 2:58:08 emptier.
Allen Marshall: 2:58:09 Terrific film Leo, I knew you had this in you
Philip R. Rice: 2:58:11 YES! (looking for CAPS-CAPS-LOCK)
tfstall: 2:58:27 so the revenge is self destructive.
futsin: 2:58:34 Agreed with Allen
Ingrid Moon: 2:58:36 revenge helps you postpone the pain, the emptiness, from your loss... gives you focus. then what?
Philip R. Rice: 2:58:39 Okay, I have no way to type a bigger yes, Todd. Not fair.
tfstall: 2:58:55 but im sure others will disagree
Dr. Nemesis: 2:58:56 One other way of thinking about it is that we see justice as something granted by a higher power, not ourselves. thats why we call it "the system". Beast tries to remove the system so that we see our options without this "higher power"
futsin: 2:59:13 Like a western.
tfstall: 2:59:26 manifest destiny
Ingrid Moon: 2:59:27 frontier justice
futsin: 2:59:29 Right.
futsin: 2:59:32 and right.
JOHNMARTIN2: 2:59:42 The story is an interesting example of how a coincidence (skiff chooses this family to terrorize) makes for a suspenseful collision of the two men's lives. Makes coincidence something to consider in our works.
Frank Fox: 2:59:49 We're all animals with an ability to empathise
Dr. Nemesis: 3:00:35 ! think I prolly didnt communicate well
Dr. Nemesis: 3:00:38 is that
Dr. Nemesis: 3:01:07 at the end he keeps the gun pointed at him and stares for a moment. He's got nothing left to do"
Philip R. Rice: 3:01:20 Some of you have read my blog about how this film made me nauseous. What made me nauseous was the realization that this movie was about a suicide more than it was about a homicide.
futsin: 3:01:28 .....
Dr. Nemesis: 3:01:32 I wanted the walking away to be 1 of confusion and blankness
futsin: 3:01:40 Phil, you're vying for a spot as a NY Times critic, aren't you?
Ricky Grove: 3:01:42 Beatifully put.
futsin: 3:01:46 But it's a very good point.
Philip R. Rice: 3:01:51 Who reads that? (lol)
futsin: 3:01:55 Haha
futsin: 3:02:05 But I think Doc, leaving out that moment of SEEING the pause is good.
Dr. Nemesis: 3:02:09 I agree with Phil
futsin: 3:02:10 We're left to our own devices to react.
Frank Fox: 3:02:24 What is this NY Time you speak of?
Ricky Grove: 3:02:28 I'd also like to recommend that you watch the film several times. It realy rewards re-viewing. My opinions changed after about the 5th time watching.
Frank Fox: 3:02:53 I've seen it twice. Both times were entertaining
futsin: 3:03:04 I've watched it about 8 times now.
Philip R. Rice: 3:03:06 Doc, will we be able to download a good res from somewhere soon?
Frank Fox: 3:03:15 Stage6?
Ingrid Moon: 3:03:18 i posted it on machiniplex, check the bottom
Dr. Nemesis: 3:03:19 I will try and sort that out this week
Dr. Nemesis: 3:03:23 oh cool
tfstall: 3:03:25 Will someone please make a pointedly politcal machinima again soon.
Philip R. Rice: 3:03:31 Hey, sweet.
Ingrid Moon: 3:03:33
won't be there forever, but we're building in a menu so you can find the downloadables.
futsin: 3:03:45 After this really thorough discussion, I'm really glad I didn't go ahead and film my latest live action piece, because after describing it to Doc he considered it a similar vein to Beast, and after all this analysis, it's shown me my limitations. And I want to again thank Doc for creating a spectacular and inspirational film, but also everyone here for the amazing conversation.
tfstall: 3:04:26 Yes, inspiring is the right word. I haven't felt the need to work on my own stuff in quite sometime. SO thank you Leo.
futsin: 3:05:00 It's talk like this that shows me the reason that machinima has struggled for so long. We're here and we're deconstructing, but lovingly so, a great piece of work, and finding much to analyze and look at. It's this depth of conversation that REAL filmmakers actually go into, but amateurs don't.
Ricky Grove: 3:05:01 One of the functions of great art is that it inspires others.
Dr. Nemesis: 3:05:01 Thanks to all. On that note some of us must leave for a while
Philip R. Rice: 3:05:05 If Todd is serious, then a double thank you, Leo!
Ricky Grove: 3:05:30 Do you need to leave, Doc?
futsin: 3:05:44 Eh, it's my fault, I show up and ZOOM he runs away screaming.
Dr. Nemesis: 3:05:48 We have to record a piece for the site while the Machiniplex guys are still here, but I believe this chat can continue, and I will definately come back
futsin: 3:06:02 Right on, mamajamalama.
Ricky Grove: 3:06:23 OK.
Ingrid Moon: 3:06:29 yes we'll be back, some of us anyway you all can continue the social stuff
Ricky Grove: 3:06:49 We are going to switch over to a private interveiw with doc for Machiniplex. Shouldn't be more than about 15min.
Dr. Nemesis: 3:06:52 yeah, please hang around and make jokes about Scanner cop
futsin: 3:07:00 and pr0n?
Dr. Nemesis: 3:07:01 if you can
futsin: 3:07:16 And jokes about Scanner Cop pr0n specifically, of course.
Damien (Darth Angelus): 3:07:22 jokes? alright: what has 4 legs and an arm?
tfstall: 3:07:24 warcraft break
futsin: 3:07:29 A horse?
Ricky Grove: 3:07:31 Yes, hang out and we'll be back. At this point, the official Premire is over. Thanks everyone for making this an interesting and exciting event!
Damien (Darth Angelus): 3:07:34 a happy pitbull
futsin: 3:07:45 Hah, thought it'd be something like that.
Ingrid Moon: 3:07:46 yes this has been a wonderful experience
tfstall: 3:07:49 thank you machinplexors
Philip R. Rice: 3:07:53 Is someone grabbing the chat buffer?
futsin: 3:07:56 Thanks Machinplex people, you guys rawk! \m/
Frank Fox: 3:07:58 Great movie, Leo
Ricky Grove: 3:08:00 I am, Phil.
Dr. Nemesis: 3:08:00 Indeed. I'm huggin EVERY1
Ingrid Moon: 3:08:01 i hope you will all join us for the next premiere event... whatever and whenever it may be
Philip R. Rice: 3:08:05 Super.
Ben: 3:08:14 genetly.
Ricky Grove: 3:08:26 I'll be sure to make the slightly edited chat available online whenwe get teh site up to spped soon.
Ricky Grove: 3:09:16 I'm stepping out for now.
Philip R. Rice: 3:09:20 Have a great night, everyone! I'm off to return to the faders and knobs.
Allen Marshall: 3:09:30 Ricky!
JOHNMARTIN2: 3:09:33 Thanks all!
Frank Fox: 3:09:37
Me too , bye all I have to clear brush from around my house now
futsin: 3:09:45 Later to all who are leaving.
futsin: 3:09:53 I'll be idling. Just doing some HL2 mapping. Woopee doo
futsin: 3:10:05 Anyone who wants to discuss movies and the universe, I'm here.
JOHNMARTIN2: 3:10:21 If any of you would like to give CrazyTalk a spin in your studio, let me know and I'll work with you.
Allen Marshall: 3:10:34 Phil!
Philip R. Rice: 3:10:38 Yes?
Allen Marshall: 3:10:42 ......I love you
Dr. Nemesis: 3:10:51
Philip R. Rice: 3:10:59 We don't have to say it, after being together this long. But thank you.
Allen Marshall: 3:11:11 i know, it's unspoken
Philip R. Rice: 3:11:34 Well (awkward pause)... I'll call you. Good night.
Allen Marshall: 3:11:39 ha
futsin: 3:11:59 o_o
END OF CHAT
Special thanks to Leo for being having a lot of patience and putting up with so many damn fool questions. -Jason, Ricky and Ingrid
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