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0707
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF KANSAS
2
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
4 ------------------- Plaintiff,)
)
5 vs. ) Case No.
) 00-40104-01/02
6 WILLIAM L. PICKARD and )
CLYDE APPERSON )
7 ------------------ Defendants.)
8 TRANSCRIPT OF VOLUME VI OF THE
TESTIMONY OF GORDON TODD SKINNER HAD DURING THE
9 JURY TRIAL
BEFORE
10 HONORABLE RICHARD D. ROGERS
and a jury of 12
11 on
February 5, 2003
12
APPEARANCES:
13
For the Government: Mr. Gregory G. Hough
14 Assistant U.S. Attorney
290 Federal Building
15 444 Quincy Street
Topeka, Kansas 66683
16
For the Defendant: Mr. William Rork
17 (Pickard) Rork Law Office
1321 SW Topeka Blvd.
18 Topeka, Kansas 66603
19 For the Defendant: Mr. Mark Bennett
(Apperson) Bennett, Hendrix & Moylan
20 5605 SW Barrington Ct. S.
Topeka, Kansas 66614
21
Court Reporter: Roxana S. Montgomery, CSR
22 Nora Lyon & Associates
1515 South Topeka Avenue
23 Topeka, Kansas 66612
24
25
0708
1 I N D E X
2 Certificate ------------------------------- 898
3
W I T N E S S
4
ON BEHALF OF GOVERNMENT: PAGE
5
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GORDON TODD SKINNER (Contd.)


6
Direct Examination by Mr. Hough 719
7 Cross Examination by Mr. Rork 781
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Hough 797
8 Cross Examination by M. Rork 798
9 E X H I B I T S
10 PICKARD EX. NO: OFRD RECD
p-20 Gordon Todd Skinner's
11 Chemical Usage 797 798
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0709
1 (THEREUPON, the following proceedings
2 were held outside the presence of the jury.)
3 THE COURT: Let the record disclose
4 we're meeting in chambers-- meeting in the
5 courtroom. The defendants are present. The
6 matter today is to discuss certain things that
7 might arise on cross-examination. Let me read
8 you something first: The Court has carefully
9 considered its prior rulings on the
10 introduction of extrinsic evidence concerning
11 the testimony of Gordon Todd Skinner. The
12 Court has also considered the additional
13 research that has been provided by the
14 government in its recent motions in limine and
15 by the defendants in their responses. The
16 Court is confident that it's properly laid out
17 the rules previously. However, the Court shall
18 briefly recap the orders so that the parties
19 will have a road map for how the Court shall
20 proceed. The Court will allow the defendants
21 to introduce extrinsic evidence in the areas of
22 impeachment by contradiction, bias, and
23 capacity. This would mean that the defendants
24 can introduce extrinsic evidence that impeaches
25 Mr. Skinner's testimony on the matters relating
0710
1 to the charges in this case. The Court will
2 also allow extrinsic evidence on the immunity
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3 agreement as it tends to show bias and on


4 Skinner's drug use, as it tends to show
5 capacity. The Court, however, will not allow
6 extrinsic evidence to prove lack of
7 truthfulness under Federal Rules of Evidence
8 608(b). See United States versus Olivo,
9 O-L-I-V-O, 80 F.3d 1466, 10th Circuit, 1966.
10 This means that the Court does not intend to
11 allow extrinsic evidence, that is, evidence
12 offered through documents or other witnesses on
13 the myriads of matters that relate to Skinner's
14 truthfulness, that is, the incidents of fraud
15 and misrepresentation concerning collateral
16 matters. The Court may have to address
17 individual issues as they arise, but we believe
18 that this will provide some guidance to
19 counsel. Two other matters that the Court
20 finds it necessary to address. First, in a
21 prior ruling the Court held that the charge of
22 manslaughter against Skinner and the events
23 surrounding that charge arising from the
24 Hulebak death are not admissible under Rule
25 608(b). The Court shall now direct both sides
0711
1 not to make any reference to the Hulebak death
2 including any evidence concerning a drug
3 overdose. The Court believes that the
4 probative value of this matter is substantially
5 outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice
6 and its tendency to mislead and confuse the
7 jury. Second, in a response to objections
8 raised by defendants yesterday concerning the
9 Secret Service file related to Skinner's
10 misdemeanor conviction, the Court shall
11 overrule these objections. The Court believes
12 that the government has complied with its
13 obligations under Brady and Giglio in allowing
14 defendant's counsel to view this file. The
15 Court does not find that the law requires that
16 a copy of the file be provided to the
17 defendants. The Court has discretion, of
18 course, to order that, but we do not find it
19 necessary since the matter is collateral and
20 related only to Skinner's truthfulness. So
21 that's going to be the Court's rulings in this
22 situation. We have done a lot more, a great
23 deal more research on this, and I have this in
24 a file, but I'm not going to give that to you
25 at this time. The time would be unnecessary.
0712
1 MR. BENNETT: Judge.
2 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
3 MR. BENNETT: Could we get a copy of
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4 what you have just read to us so we know


5 exactly. I've tried to make notes, but I
6 don't--
7 THE COURT: Yes, sir, we'll do that.
8 We'll give you a copy of that.
9 MR. HOUGH: Judge, given your ruling
10 that extrinsic evidence would be admissible
11 regarding the immunity agreement, we would
12 reoffer Exhibit 800, which the Court disallowed
13 the other day, which is the order of immunity.
14 We believe that would be only proper if counsel
15 is allowed to now, based on this ruling, prove
16 with extrinsic evidence, the immunity
17 agreement, that that order is appropriate, and
18 we would reoffer it at this time consistent
19 with this ruling.
20 MR. BENNETT: I'm not sure if he's
21 talking about 800 or 801.
22 MR. HOUGH: 800.
23 MR. BENNETT: 800 is in.
24 MR. HOUGH: It's 801.
25 THE COURT: All right.
0713
1 MR. HOUGH: It's the order.
2 MR. BENNETT: Our position would be
3 the same, Your Honor, with regards to that,
4 that its potential prejudicial effect far
5 outweighs any probative value. It doesn't tend
6 to prove or disprove any of the issues in this
7 case but, in our opinion, it gives undue
8 emphasis, it kind of puts the Court's stamp of
9 approval, if you will, on the testimony, and we
10 would object to 801 being admitted.
11 MR. RORK: And, Judge, with respect
12 to Mr. Pickard and 801, first, I would just
13 note for the record as before with all the
14 other Court's rulings in issues made most of
15 the time Mr. Skinner is present and in the
16 courtroom listening to the Court's rulings.
17 But, Judge, my first objection with respect to
18 801 goes to the fact that it is an issue
19 collateral to the matter here, the fact that he
20 came in with an attorney and then had some
21 issues in camera, which we weren't a party to,
22 which is proper, but we were initially told it
23 had to do with the theft charge in Pottawatomie
24 County and the false affidavit for appointment
25 of counsel issues. One, with Mr. Bennett, we
0714
1 adopt the fact that its probative value
2 substantially outweighs its unfair prejudice in
3 giving some type of Court approval and, second,
4 Judge, it's not a complete picture, and at some
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5 point in time I need to revisit your rulings


6 when I find my exhibits, but there's two
7 letters that Mr. Haney and Mr. Skinner signed
8 in earlier October prior to the Exhibit No.
9 800, and then there's a letter from the
10 Department of Justice November 3rd interpreting
11 what the immunity agreement does and does not
12 cover, and so those are some issues. So if you
13 just want to limit the conversation now to
14 Exhibit 801, we would ask again that you
15 reserve ruling on that pending-- it may be
16 admissible under some other means, but at this
17 time, it's not.
18 MR. HOUGH: Your Honor, we would
19 respectfully submit that each and all of the
20 reasons that Mr. Bennett and Mr. Rork have now
21 given are reason enough for this Court to
22 reconsider allowing the proof through extrinsic
23 evidence of the immunity agreement, because
24 each of those arguments is an argument against
25 this Court allowing any extrinsic evidence of
0715
1 the immunity agreements at all. However,
2 consistent with the Court's ruling that these
3 items, consistent with what the defense counsel
4 have just proffered, will be admitted, I think
5 the letters of the Department of Justice
6 beingff proved up with extrinsic evidence, the
7 other side of that coin, so that the jury has
8 the whole picture, is the Exhibit 801, which
9 has been barred. So as a matter of fundamental
10 fairness and to allow the jury to see the
11 complete picture, if you're going to allow this
12 to be proved up extrinsically, we would
13 respectfully submit they should be entitled to
14 see that whole picture, and that order
15 completes that picture.
16 MR. RORK: Judge, if I may address
17 that, what Mr. Hough failed to advise you is if
18 you do that, then your ruling you just made on
19 Mr. Hulebak will have to be revisited for
20 another reason, because the November 3rd
21 communication from the government specifically
22 says the death, apparent death, anything to do
23 with death, has not been, will not be, and will
24 never be part of this immunity, and that
25 concerned information that came to their
0716
1 attention about this death, and that wasn't
2 provided to the Pottawatomie County Attorney, a
3 matter I'm still trying to collaterally get to.
4 But, again, I would object to that.
5 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the point Mr. Rork
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6 has just raised is well taken. The Court


7 allowing the proof with extrinsic evidence of
8 the immunity agreement would open the door for
9 Mr. Rork to attempt to do what he has tried to
10 do all along and this Court has barred and has
11 now reaffirmed today, and that is get into the
12 Hulebak death. So it's a Pandora's box that is
13 being opened. The bottom line is here the fact
14 of the immunity is not in doubt. It's not
15 disputed by any of the parties. Collateral
16 proof of it opens a Pandora's box, so that we
17 would submit under 403 the Court should
18 reconsider and bar.
19 THE COURT: Well, as of now, the
20 Court sees no reason to reopen the 801 and
21 allow it into evidence. So at the present
22 time, I will not allow that unless some better
23 reason comes up, and that's going to be the
24 ruling of the Court as far as that's concerned.
25 MR. RORK: And, Judge, I know you
0717
1 want to get the jury in, but in light of your
2 ruling on the Secret Service file, I only
3 viewed it for 11 minutes. It's, like I said,
4 five or six inches thick. I'm going to need to
5 review it more, I guess, over the noon hour
6 when Mr. Hough ends, and Mr. Bennett needs to
7 review it, and there are some other matters,
8 but we can take them up later and start getting
9 testimony.
10 MR. HOUGH: Judge, I would imagine
11 that we will be done with Mr. Skinner, it is
12 our hope, at the latest, by the afternoon
13 recess. Assuming that is true, Mr. Bennett has
14 not looked at the Secret Service file in our
15 office. Mr. Rork looked at it briefly. If the
16 Court deems it appropriate, an early recess
17 today so the two of them can sit down and go
18 through that at length in our offices, we would
19 not oppose that. The other thing is that we're
20 willing to stay in the offices until eight
21 o'clock tonight if they would like to come
22 after court today and view it. So we will make
23 every attempt to accommodate the Court and
24 counsel, again, as we have attempted to do in
25 the past.
0718
1 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure there are
2 other things that they can start on if we're
3 right in the middle of the day, and so I'm not
4 necessarily going to change our schedule on
5 this thing. I don't know how long the
6 cross-examination is going to go along, but
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7 it's probably going to go a considerable period


8 of time, and so I'm not going to change our
9 schedule. There are many things they can start
10 on. That's my suggestion. All right, is the
11 jury all here?
12 THE CLERK: I believe so.
13 THE COURT: All right, why don't we
14 just bring the jury in and get started on this
15 matter?
16 (THEREUPON, the following proceedings
17 were had in the presence of the jury.)
18 THE COURT: All right, I believe
19 we're all here. You may be seated, and we'll
20 get started. Mr. Hough.
21 MR. HOUGH: Thank you, Judge.
22
23 GORDON TODD SKINNER,
24 called as a witness on behalf of the
25 Government, was previously sworn, and testified
0719
1 as follows:
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Contd.)
3 BY MR. HOUGH:
4 Q. Mr. Skinner, yesterday you had testified
5 regarding accumulating large denominations of
6 American currency. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And so that the record is clear, what
9 denominations, specifically, can you tell us?
10 A. $500 U.S. bills and $1,000 U.S. bills. They
11 were issued up until the '50s, I believe.
12 Q. Now, to your knowledge, during the life of the
13 conspiracy, did you ever use any of the aliases
14 of Mr. Pickard and Mr. Apperson?
15 A. No.
16 Q. To your knowledge, did either of them ever use
17 any of your aliases?
18 A. Leonard used Todd Rothe, Todd Reagan, Gordon
19 Todd Skinner, Todd Skinner.
20 Q. And you indicated during the course of your
21 testimony Petaluma Al, an individual that you
22 did not know the full name of.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Do you recall providing a photo of him to Agent
25 Nichols in October of 2000?
0720
1 A. I recall providing multiple photos.
2 Q. Okay. How did you obtain those paragraphs?
3 A. From Leonard Pickard asking me to generate fake
4 ID for Petaluma Al.
5 Q. And do you recall then, in January of 2001,
6 Agent Nichols showing you photographs of an
7 individual during the course of your discussion
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8 about the ET Man?


9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you recall identifying a photo in a set
11 of photos that he showed you?
12 A. Yes. There was a lineup of photos, and they
13 were all different pictures of people, and I
14 had to pick which one was the ET Man.
15 Q. Let me show you, sir, what has been caused to
16 be marked Government's Exhibit 196. It's been
17 admitted into evidence in this case, and it's
18 been identified as an address book that came
19 from the laptop computer taken from a Buick
20 LeSabre driven by Mr. Pickard on November 6,
21 2000. Can you look at that address book,
22 please, and tell us if any of the entries in it
23 are ones familiar to you through your
24 conspiratorial agreement with the defendants?
25 A. Yes, I'll identify some names. Is that what
0721
1 you want me to do?
2 Q. Please.
3 A. Mike Bauer, Michael Bauer. He lived in the
4 Boston area.
5 MR. RORK: Excuse me, Your Honor.
6 Again, direct examination is to deal with new
7 matters, and for the government now to
8 cumulatively again go through matters that have
9 been brought up the last five days, I object.
10 The purpose is to provide evidence that hasn't
11 been brought out before, and the names and
12 whatever Mr. Skinner has alleged have been
13 involved have been gone over for four days, so
14 I object. This is cumulative and wastes time.
15 THE COURT: Anything else? Hearing
16 nothing else, I'm going to overrule the
17 objection, and it could possibly be helpful to
18 the jury and to other parties, so you may
19 proceed.
20 MR. HOUGH: Thank you.
21 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Continue, please.
22 A. Yes, Mike Bauer lives in the Boston area. He
23 was friends with both John Halpern, Dr. John
24 Halpern, and he was friends with William
25 Leonard Pickard, and he did research after he
0722
1 lost his job with a publishing company. He did
2 research with-- for William Leonard Pickard,
3 and he is a person that early on I warned that
4 there was a major LSD conspiracy.
5 MR. RORK: Judge, again, I object to
6 the nature of the question and the answers. He
7 can respond.
8 MR. HOUGH: Judge, he's describing
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9 the nature of his relationship with Mr. Bauer


10 based on the relationship with the defendants.
11 That is appropriate.
12 MR. RORK: And again, going into
13 matters that he just adds for a response to
14 government questions. He was asked to identify
15 who the people were and then is using a
16 narrative set of events that fits his story.
17 THE COURT: I assume if Mr. Hough's
18 objecting, he will do so, to what he's doing.
19 Overruled. Go ahead.
20 A. Make Bauer was a person that came to visit me
21 in Tulsa and Kansas, and after I developed a
22 relationship of knowing him, I warned him that
23 he was involved with something that he fully
24 didn't understand and that it was to his best
25 interest to remove himself from this because
0723
1 this was going to blow up in the end, and I
2 told him that there was a-- he could
3 potentially end up in some legal trouble. He
4 went back and then told Dr. John Halpern this,
5 and they convinced both William Leonard Pickard
6 and Dr. John Halpern that I was totally
7 psychotic and suffered from all sorts of
8 delusions, and there was no truth to this at
9 all.
10 MR. RORK: Does he mean there's no
11 truth that he suffered from delusions, or does
12 that mean there was no truth to it at all?
13 MR. HOUGH: Judge, that would be
14 appropriate cross-examination.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Based upon your presence in
17 this courtroom before this jury today, do you
18 believe that those allegations have come true,
19 your advice to Mr. Bauer?
20 A. Yes, to the tee.
21 Q. Also on that first page, Richard Alpert, is
22 that--
23 A. Yes, but you prefaced that I was introduced
24 through this conspiracy, therefore, he would
25 not be.
0724
1 Q. Okay, let's keep it that way.
2 A. And that's going to change things because of
3 the way you phrased it. Selene, Diana, those
4 are actually two names. These are girlfriends
5 of William Leonard Pickard. They received
6 large amounts of cash. They also actually met
7 with Petaluma Al-- I'm sorry, not they-- Selene
8 met with Petaluma Al. Her real name is
9 Martina. Her first name that we were given was
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10 Natasha to add to the confusion with all the


11 names in this trial. The next name that I was
12 given was Selene when she named herself, and
13 then when I had to make travel arrangements, it
14 ended up being Martina. Those are two
15 girlfriends of William Leonard Pickard that did
16 receive illegal funds and also received Guilder
17 and, through another one of their friends, they
18 tried to sell Guilder back to me because he was
19 giving them Guilder at times, and they didn't
20 know what to do with it. The General Dostum, I
21 was made aware of information through William
22 Leonard Pickard about General Dostum.
23 Q. What did he tell you?
24 A. He said that he met a man, I believe it was at
25 Terminal Island while he was in jail, who was a
0725
1 colonel underneath General Dostum, and that
2 this colonel had an elaborate way of smuggling
3 in heroin to the United States by having it
4 inside of the fibers of a carpet, and that he
5 had been given quite a sentence for this, and
6 that the U.S. government had made quite a large
7 deal to get a hold of this man, and that one of
8 the things that William Leonard Pickard was
9 trying to do was to get his friend, the
10 colonel-- or whatever his position under
11 General Dostum-- out, was to try and bargain a
12 deal with the U.S. government, and he was doing
13 this in the form-- different forms, but one
14 form was to get a man coming through, entering
15 the U.S., busted with heroin, and--
16 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you talked about
17 being in an airport with Mr. Pickard when he
18 made a phone call. Is that related to this?
19 A. Same man, not General Dostum, but the same man
20 that was being set up to be busted.
21 Q. How do you mean being set up to be busted?
22 A. Well, that he was going to be carrying heroin
23 only for the purpose of either he knew he was
24 doing this to be arrested and his family had
25 been paid a large amount of money, or he did
0726
1 not know he was doing it and someone else had
2 been paid a large amount of money but,
3 effectively, this was a fictitious bust for the
4 U.S. government, in their mind, and this was a
5 standard Pickard move.
6 Q. What do you mean it was a standard Pickard
7 move?
8 A. You can't ever tell what's going on with his
9 strategies, and he's usually double dealing on
10 both sides.
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11 Q. Was there, based on your conversations with Mr.


12 Pickard, any legitimacy to any claim that he
13 was cooperating with the government in any way
14 at that time?
15 A. I have no way of knowing, other than seeing a
16 phone call and it being dialed and hearing the
17 conversation. This could have been off into
18 space. I don't know. Could have been-- this
19 could have been all done for my benefit. I
20 have no knowledge to know what the truth was on
21 this.
22 Q. From time to time, given your relationship with
23 Mr. Pickard, was it difficult to determine the
24 truth of these types of stories when he told
25 them to you?
0727
1 MR. RORK: Again, Judge, I object to
2 the form and the nature of the question and the
3 foundation and the relevance.
4 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the form is
5 appropriate, and the nature is a follow-up
6 question to the witness's statement, and it's
7 relevant based upon his relationship with the
8 defendant.
9 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
10 A. I'm quite a skeptic, and I believe in thorough
11 examination of all the underlying data to
12 derive and to both get conclusions made in a
13 very thorough manner. Therefore, yes, I would
14 find it difficult, and some of the stories were
15 pretty far out, and some of them were true.
16 Indeed, there was a major LSD lab. As I said
17 earlier, I originally thought because of the
18 smell of the money it was a marijuana
19 operation. And, you know, as time went on, I
20 could see how the maneuvering would go and
21 such.
22 Q. (By Mr. Hough) How was the maneuvering going
23 on as it related to this fake bust?
24 A. Well, the bust wouldn't have been fake. This
25 guy was going to go to jail. Initially,
0728
1 Leonard told me that the man's family was being
2 paid off and it was a million dollars, U.S.
3 dollars, and that he would-- the man would
4 voluntarily do this-- he wavered on his story
5 over time-- and that this was being done for
6 the benefit of trying to get the colonel out,
7 and I said, "Leonard, do you realize this man
8 has no concept of what it is to do life in
9 prison in the United States?" He said, "It
10 doesn't make any difference because it's better
11 than what life they have currently."
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12 Q. And the million dollars that person was being


13 paid was coming from who?
14 A. I have no idea.
15 Q. The next name?
16 A. George Greer. This is Dr. George Greer. He's
17 part of the Hefter (spelled phonetically) Board
18 at the time. We had arguments with George
19 Greer about the Sasha Grant, Alexander T.
20 Shulgin Grant, about the acceptance of stock
21 certificates that William Leonard Pickard
22 forged the back of-- the signatures without
23 Graham Kendall's permission. He forged the
24 signature on them. I was coconspirator in
25 that. I knew he was going to forge them, so I
0729
1 had permission from Graham to deal with his
2 financial matters, but I did not have
3 permission for that to be forged, so I'm
4 equally as guilty as Leonard is on this. These
5 were approximately, it turns out-- and it will
6 be a lot more money than we realized due to the
7 stock splitting, so it's really good that the
8 Hefter Group sent us the certificates back.
9 The certificates were sent back because it was
10 earmarked for a project for Alexander T.
11 Shulgin in St. Petersburg. The Hefter Group
12 felt it was too hot of an item for them to give
13 a grant.
14 MR. RORK: Judge, Mr. Skinner again
15 goes off into a narration of events and
16 purported crimes and forgeries. I would ask,
17 in light of this obviously programmed
18 testimony, that the Court provide the jury at
19 this time a cautionary instruction about all
20 these allegations of offenses and crimes that
21 Skinner allegedly says occurred during the
22 course of this, that the Court provide the jury
23 a cautionary instruction about what the purpose
24 or what admissibility or the weight any of this
25 could have with respect to the charges we're
0730
1 here for.
2 MR. BENNETT: Judge, if I might join
3 in, I would object to all this testimony. It
4 doesn't tend to prove or disprove any of the
5 issues in this case, doesn't have a thing to do
6 with any of the allegations in the second
7 superseding indictment. We're way beyond that.
8 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the evidence-- the
9 government is entitled, as is the defense, to
10 have witnesses explain and describe evidence
11 that has been admitted. Without this
12 testimony, all the jury has is a document and--
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13 MR. RORK: If you will recall--


14 MR. HOUGH: -- the witness can aid
15 the jury in understanding why that document is
16 relevant.
17 MR. RORK: Judge, if you recall, I
18 think when we were here last Tuesday and last
19 Wednesday, we even broke overnight and at lunch
20 so Mr. Skinner could take this phone book down
21 and look at it over the lunch hour. Then we
22 came back, and the jury was told he had it over
23 the lunch hour, and we went through this phone
24 book for half a day. I would renew my
25 objection, one, that you provide the jury a
0731
1 cautionary instruction about any alleged other
2 crimes Mr. Skinner has tried to fit in here
3 and, two, that it's cumulative. We have been
4 through this phone book.
5 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we're talking
6 about apples and oranges here. It's a
7 completely different phone book that was found
8 in the vehicle with Mr. Pickard, a hard copy
9 that we went through the last week. This is a
10 completely different document, and so that
11 objection is not well founded.
12 MR. BENNETT: Well, Judge, I would
13 just repeat what I said before. If this is
14 allowed, arguably, we can go through every
15 other name in that book and ask him about that.
16 We'll be here until the Fourth of July.
17 MR. HOUGH: Judge, questioning, as
18 the Court is aware, is limited to the names of
19 individuals that he learned relative to the
20 conspiracy during the life of his relationship
21 with the defendants.
22 MR. RORK: And what the relevance is
23 to this conspiracy, Judge, I see none.
24 MR. HOUGH: Well, that's for the jury
25 to determine, Judge. Thank you. The other
0732
1 phone book, Exhibit 211, which was seized from
2 the vehicle that was driven by Mr. Pickard,
3 it's a completely different exhibit. This, as
4 the record reflects, came off of Mr. Pickard's
5 computer.
6 MR. RORK: Judge, I understand that.
7 He had both the phone books and exhibits when
8 he was looking at them.
9 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to allow
10 you to go ahead, but let's not go into flights
11 of fancy here on this matter.
12 MR. HOUGH: I understand, Judge.
13 THE COURT: We're only interested in
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14 those that are tied into the conspiracy in some


15 way. So go ahead, but let's not run amuck.
16 Q. (By Mr. Hough) For the record, Mr. Skinner, do
17 you recall last week when we took a recess so
18 you could look at a phone book?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was this part of that?
21 A. No, not even remotely. This is a computer
22 generated phone book. The other one was
23 handwritten, and they're two completely
24 generations apart. One is analog, one is
25 digital, and they're not remotely alike.
0733
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. RORK: Judge, I object to the
3 form of the question and the context without
4 Mr. Hough advising him that he has had those
5 exhibits in their possession every break.
6 Every time they're done, he runs over here and
7 grabs the exhibits, and they've looked at them,
8 and he's talked to the agents, and I object to
9 the form.
10 MR. HOUGH: Judge, that's not true.
11 THE COURT: Let's stop our
12 complaining about all the problems and try to
13 get this case tried. Go ahead, please.
14 MR. HOUGH: Thank you.
15 Q. (By Mr. Hough) You were telling us about
16 George Greer, sir, and his relationship to
17 Hefter.
18 A. I'm not trying to go lead off into other areas.
19 This is a complicated thing that needs to be
20 well described. He sat on the board. The
21 board rejected a promise that was given upon
22 the $100,000 that was given in cash to Hefter.
23 Q. By whom?
24 A. By Leonard William Pickard or William Leonard
25 Pickard, through Federal Express, to the lawyer
0734
1 for the Hefter Group, and it was considered AD,
2 anonymous donor. That was how Hefter listed
3 it. They then put it into a mutual fund, and
4 it ended up being $300,000 or something. When
5 the note was called due, the marker was called
6 due, then we want a promise that was made, that
7 if we asked for funding and we give you the
8 funding, you, if it's earmarked by William
9 Leonard Pickard and myself, at that moment,
10 whatever we ask for be done, and we had a
11 project earmarked by ourselves for Alexander T.
12 Shulgin involving using scientists in St.
13 Petersburg, Russia, that were low cost
14 scientists, that were on the surface going to
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15 be doing research on actavine-- acatavine


16 (spelled phonetically)-- I'm doing the best--
17 Q. Acadamine?
18 A. No, acatavine. I'm saying it incorrectly. It
19 is nicotine-- a way of handling nicotine
20 withdrawal. Really, what was going on was this
21 was going to be a new drug, it was going to be
22 a new way for us to develop future drugs, and
23 Hefter bogged down, refused, and they sent back
24 the stock certificates that we had given them
25 and said, "No, thanks. We don't want any part
0735
1 of it," and at that point Leonard said, "That's
2 it, all the rest of the members of the board
3 and Hefter is cut off, and the only one that
4 will receive money will be Dave Nichols at the
5 amount of $50,000 U.S. per year for his help
6 and work in developing better synthesis and new
7 forms of LSD analogs."
8 Q. And Dave Nichols is where?
9 A. At Purdue, and he carries a Schedule 1 license
10 through the DEA.
11 Q. Okay. Now, the next name?
12 A. Let's see. Abe Halpern. Abe Halpern received
13 some money through William Leonard Pickard for
14 something. I don't know what it was. He is
15 the father of Dr. John Halpern, and he is a
16 well-known-- he has been on the television--
17 famous psychiatrist. The next name is Deborah
18 Harlow. This is, I was originally under the
19 impression, the ex-wife of Leonard. She has a
20 child of Leonard. I have eaten meals with her.
21 I've spoken to her on different occasions on
22 the phone.
23 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, and again, I
24 object to the relevance of that with relation
25 to this conspiracy. I don't think we're here
0736
1 charged with eating meals with somebody. And
2 again, it's cumulative and irrelevant.
3 THE COURT: Go ahead.
4 A. Not only that, she received cash--
5 MR. RORK: I object to this witness
6 starting the narration again without a question
7 being in front of him. I mean, Mr. Hough
8 should ask a question.
9 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the witness was
10 cut off.
11 THE COURT: Still talking about the
12 same lady.
13 MR. HOUGH: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: Go ahead.
15 A. Yes. She also received cash, and we actually
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16 broke into her storage units on occasion when


17 we were short cash to retrieve cash to make up
18 for shortfalls of which Leonard said, "She's
19 going to be pretty mad about this," that he has
20 to get the money back to her.
21 Q. (By Mr. Hough) And where were the storage
22 units?
23 A. San Anselmo.
24 Q. Was it-- did you in fact inform agents about
25 that, the cash in storage lockers in San
0737
1 Anselmo?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. RORK: Judge, if the records
4 would be clear, Mr. Hough said, "Did you inform
5 the agents?" and I think he's established there
6 have been at least 18 times that Mr. Skinner
7 talked to the agents with respect to this
8 matter. Let's identify when this was as
9 opposed to leaving it hang out there.
10 MR. HOUGH: Judge, that, one, will be
11 a matter that can be addressed on cross-
12 examination and, two, will become abundantly
13 clear when the seizing agent of the evidence
14 from that search warrant testifies later in
15 this trial.
16 THE COURT: All right, overruled. Go
17 ahead.
18 A. Continue on the list?
19 Q. (By Mr. Hough) The next one, please.
20 A. Bob Jesse. He specifically, to make it fast, I
21 hand-- I reached into a bag, as I have
22 previously talked about, at the Ritz-Carlton
23 and pulled out approximately $30,000, either
24 handed it to Leonard or directly to Bob Jesse.
25 I don't know. I can't recall.
0738
1 Q. The purpose of that was what?
2 A. To fund his work on trying to legalize certain
3 Schedule 1 items.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Connie Jones, only remotely. She was at the
6 Stinson house in the ethnobotany conference
7 where I first met Leonard in person, and she
8 lives in the Boston area. Mark Kleiman, this
9 is the person that was the senior boss over
10 Leonard at UCLA, and this is the man that
11 received the grant that Leonard had laundered
12 through using Guilders. Stefan Wathne, a
13 Russian that went back to UCLA, and the same
14 man that was ill with Hodgkins, I believe, and
15 Leonard paid his medical bills with money
16 orders. Trais Kliphuis, this is another
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17 girlfriend/mother of one of Leonard's children.


18 Met her on numerous occasions, and--
19 Q. Do you recall whether or not she was ever in
20 Kansas with either Mr. Apperson or Mr. Pickard?
21 A. Yes. I've testified two or three times to
22 that. She was on the plane with us that came
23 into Topeka.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. George Marquardt-- I can't say the name--
0739
1 Marquardt. This is the famous fentanyl chemist
2 who-- there were numerous deaths, at least in
3 excess of 250, in a very short time. The
4 production was done in Wichita, as I
5 understand. This is a historic case of
6 information, and William Leonard Pickard told
7 me he actually did research and helped and
8 tried to interview or interviewed concerning
9 this case.
10 Q. And did you ever see any actual evidence of
11 that, or was it just his word saying it?
12 A. Saw nothing.
13 MR. RORK: Judge, I object again to
14 the form of the question, "Was it just his
15 word?" I object to the form and the
16 connotation. Argumentative.
17 THE COURT: Well, you're simply
18 asking how the information came to him?
19 MR. HOUGH: Yes, and if there was any
20 corroboration.
21 THE COURT: Go ahead. Overruled.
22 A. No.
23 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Okay.
24 A. Deborah Mash, this is tangential. I'm just
25 going to move through it fast. Because of
0740
1 Alfred Savinelli and other people, Dr. John
2 Halpern, she was involved many different
3 neuroreceptor sites research, and she was
4 involved with ibogaine and iboga, ibogaine
5 research for heroin withdrawal.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Well-known researcher. Jerry D. Patchen. This
8 is a lawyer that the money was sent to, the
9 $100,000 that was short $2,500, and I was
10 present when a phone call was made to him once.
11 Q. The money was sent to him for what purpose?
12 A. A donation to Hefter so that Hefter could get
13 seed money to start going. Wendy Perry, this
14 is the step-daughter of Alexander T. Shulgin,
15 who used to host at her father's house, the
16 famous-- not famous among general populace, but
17 amongst the community-- the Friday night-- the
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18 Friday evening dinners. John C. Reppert. This


19 is a retired military general who was-- Leonard
20 was trying to entice into doing the FEDS
21 project, who was putting pressure on Leonard to
22 get this huge legitimate grant so that it could
23 be funded, and another general friend of mine
24 had conversations with General Reppert over
25 that issue. David Rosensweet, MD, a doctor of
0741
1 mine.
2 Q. Your doctor?
3 A. Well, I mean, I went to him. I guess Leonard
4 also went to him. He was in Santa Fe.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. At the time. Alexander Shulgin, numerous, I
7 mean, I've talked extensively about him.
8 Again, Alexander T. Shulgin, the same person.
9 I've talked extensively. Sasha and Ann
10 Shulgin, again, talked about the situation with
11 them. Ann Shulgin, Alexander Shulgin, same
12 thing. Ann Shulgin, again, this is all
13 referring to the same husband and wife, I
14 assume. Todd Skinner, this is myself. There
15 are numerous entries made underneath my name.
16 Do you want me to talk about the entries or--
17 Q. No.
18 A. Also under Todd Skinner is all the information
19 about me, date of birth, Social Security
20 number, mother's maiden name--
21 MR. RORK: Judge, if he's going to
22 give some of the information that's in there
23 about him, I would ask he give all the
24 information like he did the other names, not
25 select parts.
0742
1 MR. HOUGH: He can certainly come
2 back to that on cross-examination, Judge.
3 MR. RORK: Judge, I could come back
4 to it on cross-examination, but Rule 106
5 requires, if the government is introducing
6 something out of context, the rest of it needs
7 to be presented so the jury can have a clear
8 picture.
9 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we are well within
10 106 in this matter.
11 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
12 A. Rick Strassman. He was given a Schedule 1
13 license by the DEA, got FDA approval to do
14 human research with the injection of
15 dimethyltryptamine, otherwise known at DMT, and
16 also psilocybin studies with live human
17 experiments, which was done, and because of
18 him, numerous of us all met, because we would
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19 go to the hospital and see some of the research


20 being done, and this is actually how Alfred met
21 John Halpern, Dr. John Halpern, I believe. I
22 have been told this is how ultimately--
23 Q. (By Mr. Hough) By who?
24 A. I have been told by William Leonard Pickard,
25 also, in other words, this is a complicated
0743
1 compounded question, so I will try and explain
2 it. William Leonard Pickard, Alfred Savinelli,
3 and Dr. John Halpern have all told me different
4 stories how they met, plus I was there too, so
5 to save time, I don't want to go through all
6 the ways, but this was a neuronetwork of how a
7 lot of these people ended up meeting. This was
8 in Albuquerque. Natasha Vorobee, girlfriend
9 and mother of one of Leonard's children. J.
10 Thomas Ungerleider, I believe, is the
11 grandfather of another Ungerleider, who was
12 friends with both Pickard, myself, and the
13 community in general, who lived in Santa Fe,
14 whose wife's name was Gay Ungerleider, who was
15 one of the people that we ran into in a bakery
16 in Santa Fe, which is one of the decisions for
17 moving the lab out. We ran into too many
18 people that we knew. Bill Wynn, he is a long-
19 term, junior high school associate of mine who
20 has worked with me for many, many, many years.
21 He also knew William Leonard Pickard and drove
22 him around, helped him pick up money, helped
23 him with computer stuff, helped him generate
24 things. Bill Wynn is also the one that
25 generated the fictitious ID, and on occasions
0744
1 he would assist in generating the fictitious
2 counterfeit cashier's checks. Jeffrey
3 Bronfman. This is from the Seagram's alcohol
4 family, a distant branch. After Ganga White
5 stepped down as the head of the UDV, Jeffrey
6 became the next head. This started a series of
7 events, because customs busted a load of
8 sacrament or Ayahuasca coming into the United
9 States, traced it right to his house, seized
10 it. This was in Santa Fe. This started a
11 series of events of where Ganga White was then
12 interviewed by Customs and then had to go
13 before a grand jury. Because this was in Santa
14 Fe, this was another pressure of get the lab
15 out of there. It was a good decision. We knew
16 this heat was sitting back there. We didn't
17 know that Ganga White would end up getting
18 subpoenaed, because he was so far back. So
19 this was a stress maker for us. Dennis J.
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20 McKenna.
21 Q. Just a second. During your conversations with
22 Mr. Pickard relative to that grand jury
23 investigation, did he make any comments to you
24 regarding any attempts to influence that
25 investigation?
0745
1 A. Yes. We were very nervous about the situation.
2 Q. We being?
3 A. William Leonard Pickard.
4 MR. RORK: Excuse me, Mr. Skinner.
5 Again, I would ask that the Court advise the
6 jury, if Mr. Skinner is going to be allowed to
7 interject all these supposed crimes-- now he's
8 referenced Mr. Pickard as corrupting a grand
9 jury-- I ask you to advise this jury of the
10 cautionary instruction for why they should
11 consider it and what for, because we're getting
12 into now about 17 different things Mr. Pickard
13 has done just since 9:30, and I don't think the
14 jury should be entitled to consider this with
15 respect to this charge unless they're
16 instructed for what purpose.
17 THE COURT: I appreciate you helping
18 me, but I'll overrule your objection. You may
19 go ahead.
20 A. I'll claim equal responsibility for the
21 thoughts of this, so I'm going to say that we
22 were equally devious in this plan. We were
23 very nervous about what Ganga White would say
24 before the grand jury, considering that he was
25 familiar with the swimming pool project, which
0746
1 was code name for the LSD operation,
2 manufacturing, that Alfred Savinelli had told
3 us he had told Ganga, plus other people told us
4 Ganga knew, i.e., Joel Kramer. He knew this
5 information. He was granted some form of
6 immunity. This made us very nervous because we
7 didn't know how far the grand jury would let
8 him talk, and both of us came up with a plan to
9 have-- we said we'd pay his legal bills, we
10 would go-- we would hold his hand and support
11 him and give him moral support, but the real
12 reason we were there, although I never arrived,
13 was to plant a bug on him so we could hear what
14 he said before the grand jury. Grand juries
15 have an interesting problem that not even a
16 lawyer for the client can be present when the
17 grand jury convenes, therefore, what he says,
18 we would virtually have no knowledge of what he
19 said, and it's sealed, and we felt that this
20 was the only way we could ever know, and the
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21 bug was actually going to be in the form of a


22 pen. We were going to give him a pen that he
23 would carry in. It would be a transmitting
24 pen, and both of us came up with this idea. I,
25 in the end, said this is just too much, and I
0747
1 never showed up.
2 Q. (By Mr. Hough) To your knowledge, did Mr.
3 Pickard show up?
4 A. Yes, he showed up, and he stayed, I believe, at
5 Las Campanas (spelled phonetically), and he did
6 talk or meet with Ganga White.
7 Q. And the purpose of that was, overall, to
8 protect your operation?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Okay. Now, the next name.
11 A. Dennis J. McKenna. This is a Ph.D. He's a
12 famous ethnobotanist researcher. He is a
13 personal friend of mine, and he was also a
14 member of the board of Hefter, and when there
15 would be problems about the inner politics, he
16 would be my-- he was the liaison that I had to
17 Hefter's board to put pressure on which way and
18 what projects were approved and not approved.
19 Q. The next name?
20 A. Again, I recognize many of these names, but I'm
21 trying to adhere to your instructions that you
22 have given me. William Pickard, obvious,
23 referring to William Leonard Pickard. I notice
24 a name Wadena. This would refer to the Wadena
25 that was the step-daughter of Brent that is
0748
1 referred to so many times in the tape.
2 Q. Brent Nicholson?
3 A. Right. Charles S. Grob. He was given, I
4 believe, a Schedule 1 license and FDA approval
5 for Phase 1 studies of MDMA, personal friend of
6 mine, tangential friend of William Leonard
7 Pickard, also a tangential friend of Alfred
8 Savinelli. Dr. John Halpern, or actually says
9 John Halpern, MD. He was involved in the money
10 laundering, involved in conversations about how
11 to deal with taking care of eliminating the
12 informant, was fully aware in all aspects of
13 the LSD conspiracy as far as that it was a
14 large, ongoing thing, the same man who told
15 Mike Bauer I was psychotic and suffered from
16 paranoid delusional thoughts. Again, William
17 Leonard Pickard, obvious. Jack Conway is the
18 person that Leonard said the story was not
19 true. This is indeed the cochairman of the
20 Maybee Foundation, a place that both I and
21 Leonard were looking at getting funding for
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22 different projects. Rick Doblin, who was the


23 head of MAPS.
24 Q. MAPS is what?
25 A. This is a group that publishes both on the
0749
1 website and a newsletter, I believe, so that it
2 talks about different research that's going on
3 with psychedelics and entheogens, and different
4 drug trends.
5 Q. MAPS is a moniker--
6 A. It's an acronym. I don't remember what it is,
7 sorry.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I don't read MAPS. That's the reason I'm--
10 Jonathan Ott.
11 Q. What page of the document are you on?
12 A. Page 63.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. A very well-known entheogen researcher who has
15 written many books, who was also at the Palace
16 of Fine Arts. I've known Jonathan Ott since
17 1984. He was a protege of Albert Hofmann, the
18 man that first synthesized LSD in 1943.
19 Jonathan Ott also translated from Swiss German
20 to English "LSD, My Problem Child," which is a
21 book of Albert Hofmann's. Jonathan Ott is very
22 much involved in the entheogenic community.
23 Q. Palace of Fine Arts where?
24 A. San Francisco at the ethnobotony conference
25 where we stayed at the house in Stinson Beach.
0750
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. Richard Yensen, Ph.D., he was given somewhat of
3 an approval for LSD research on human subjects.
4 Either the FDA or the DEA required that a safe
5 be put into his house. I believe it was at the
6 Palace of Fine Arts, he was one of the many
7 people that came up and asked me for a
8 donation. I'm not for sure that Leonard was
9 present when that donation was asked, but I
10 know that Leonard was also hit up for money
11 from Yensen. Through some strange mechanism
12 we were forewarned that they would be asking
13 for money, and that the lab in Purdue of David
14 Nichols is the one that produced LSD that went
15 to a safe. Because of lack of funding and some
16 other problems Yensen was never-- maybe now,
17 but to the best of my knowledge he never
18 continued his studies. It's been the note of
19 many main stream magazine articles. Bob
20 Wallace, who helped fund Hefter, made a promise
21 of matching dollar-for-dollar a grant for every
22 bit of money that went in there, who also knew
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23 William Leonard Pickard, and has recently died,


24 cofounder of Microsoft. David E. Nichols is
25 from Purdue University, Schedule 1 licensed man
0751
1 that we keep talking about, a well-known,
2 famous person on the structure of all the
3 analogs, isomers, and derivatives of LSD and
4 other like compounds, also his skills are far
5 beyond that, by the same lab that Leonard said
6 that he synthesized 66 grams of LSD out of to
7 get everything going.
8 Q. Describe that for us.
9 A. He was out of money. Everyone was out of money
10 as far as that group. They had not approached
11 me. They needed initial funding. Savinelli
12 did not have enough money, or it was before
13 Leonard knew Savinelli. Money was scarce, and
14 Leonard somehow got into the lab through saying
15 he was going to do research work or something,
16 and he synthesized approximately 66 grams of
17 LSD.
18 Q. And do you know, did he tell you what became of
19 it, what he did with it when he got it?
20 A. No. I assume it was sold, but he didn't tell
21 me that.
22 Q. What would it be worth on the street?
23 A. At that time it would have been worth quite a
24 bit, more than later, because it was scarce
25 because Nicky, Nick Sands, had been busted in
0752
1 Vancouver, and there was a tremendous scarcity
2 worldwide of LSD, but the minimum value of it
3 would have been, oh, around $200,000, could
4 have had a much higher value depending on how
5 the distribution was done, much higher. That
6 brings up something-- well, I'm meandering.
7 I'm not-- there's been a misunderstanding. The
8 LSD was sold for 29 cents and a fraction per
9 dose or $2,970,000 per kilo, and I have seen
10 where there's been misunderstanding of that.
11 That is what this organization sold the LSD
12 for. That's not what it cost us to make.
13 Q. Okay, what did it cost to make?
14 A. It's a complicated question. It depends on if
15 you're looking at operational or complete
16 overhead or entertainment value thrown in
17 there, and so I don't know that. Just strict
18 in and out accounting by traditional
19 operations, accounting of a business, it would
20 be less than a cent per dose, 29-fold profit
21 minimum.
22 Q. That's at wholesale level?
23 A. At the very large wholesale level. Albert
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24 Hofmann, this is a man that is in his 90s, who


25 is a famous chemist for Sandoz Chemical out of
0753
1 Switzerland and the man that in 1943 first
2 synthesized LSD(25). Gary Bravo, tangentially
3 involved only because he knew the group, and he
4 actually knew of the swimming pool project,
5 because that's Grob and him were telling me
6 about it, like I didn't know about it, which
7 concerned me. He was not involved, he just
8 knew about it.
9 Q. And why would that concern you?
10 A. That someone that's in Northern California
11 would know that there was an LSD operation of
12 large scale concerned me, how many leaks of
13 information there were. This was supposed to
14 be a need-to-know basis only. Jim De Korne, he
15 wrote books, lives in New Mexico, about
16 entheogens. Ethan Nadelman (spelled
17 phonetically), he's involved with Soros
18 (spelled phonetically), and he worked for
19 Soros.
20 Q. What is Soros?
21 A. Soros, George Soros is a billionaire who trades
22 currency and all sorts of complicated financial
23 instruments all over the world through
24 something called Quantums Fund One, Two, and
25 Three, which are off shore. He's also referred
0754
1 to in the video that has been shown twice to
2 the jury, and his name is referred to as
3 tryingto get everybody to go, or he was being
4 invited.
5 Q. The video tape of your meeting with Mr. Pickard
6 in California--
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. -- prior to them coming to Kansas?
9 A. Correct. Andrew T. Weil, MD, famous author of
10 many books. He's become on line, and he's
11 written a lot of popular books now. He was out
12 of the Harvard team that was pro the use of
13 psychedelics. I've known him since 1984. He
14 also was best friends with Ungerleider and
15 would routinely come into Santa Fe.
16 Q. And he was pro the use of psychedelics for what
17 purpose?
18 A. For many things. To better help someone deal
19 with problems, to better help medical-- he
20 wanted to use them in medical applications.
21 He's had numerous, numerous books written by
22 him. You can go to any book store, and they're
23 on the best seller list. A repeat of the name
24 Deborah Mash. I've already gone over the name.
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25 Peter Louie. This is the Customs agent that


0755
1 was contacted, theoretically, in front of me
2 concerning the artificial or the setup bust
3 involving General Dostum and the colonel and so
4 on and so on. That concludes the list to the
5 best of my ability to handle it with the
6 instructions you gave me.
7 Q. Page 97, if you would, please.
8 MR. RORK: Do you have a copy of that
9 with you, Mr. Hough?
10 A. I'm sorry, Ganga White. Didn't see this.
11 There's many, many, many names on this list,
12 and this is-- Ganga White was involved with all
13 of us. He was at the Stinson house, at the
14 ethnobotany conference that was held in the
15 Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, a
16 personal friend of Joel Kramer's, the one that
17 was the original previous head of the UDV, who
18 was given the Customs subpoena or was
19 interviewed by Customs, was then later
20 subpoenaed by the grand jury, the same person
21 that we were going to put a bug on, the same
22 person that became so panicked that wanted to
23 reverse out of the $80,000 U.S. contract
24 situation.
25 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Okay. Now, previously you
0756
1 talked-- you started to talk about the personal
2 information on you that's contained in this
3 document. Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I cut you off. Now I would like to go back
6 and do just that. Let me--
7 A. Can you tell me the page number?
8 Q. -- see the document.
9 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, if he's going
10 to use the document now and then has a copy of
11 it, I would like to have a copy of the document
12 to go through. I don't know if now-- if you
13 want the time now for your morning break or
14 when, but--
15 MR. HOUGH: Judge, it's been in here
16 in evidence since Ralph Sorrell testified. We
17 have no objection to counsel getting another
18 copy of it. Not a problem. We can either do
19 it now or later.
20 MR. RORK: Judge, it isn't another
21 copy, it would be a copy.
22 THE COURT: Why don't we go ahead for
23 about 15 more minutes, then we'll see what we
24 can cover.
25 MR. HOUGH: Okay. I'll put this on
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0757
1 there.
2 THE CLERK: Okay.
3 Q. (By Mr. Hough) All right. Under your name
4 there, if you can just describe for us, now
5 it's on the overhead, what the entries mean
6 regarding you.
7 A. First entry is $1,343. It looks like I
8 scratched through it. It's a total that's
9 given. This is an entry so that we can be
10 accounting for money transfers between the two
11 of us. This represents two airline tickets for
12 him to go to Honolulu, to San Francisco. Since
13 it's times two, it would have been for Natasha
14 and William Leonard Pickard for their wedding.
15 The next one would be St. Martin, Miami, San
16 Francisco, Honolulu. This was because they
17 were not granted by the governor of St. Martin
18 the right to marry, and they had to do this.
19 This is a $4,800 total. It shows, again,
20 another entry that he would been going-- I have
21 no idea what this next line means. I can try
22 and figure it out.
23 MR. RORK: Can we have, like, a date
24 that he's talking about per line, or some
25 idea--
0758
1 THE WITNESS: Okay, 8-11, 2000.
2 MR. HOUGH: For the record, Judge, on
3 the overhead it shows date and time entry.
4 Date and time are on the left-hand side of the
5 scroll.
6 MR. RORK: I meant when he was saying
7 this one--
8 THE WITNESS: I'll do it. 8-9, 2000.
9 I'm a little confused, but now I'm looking at
10 this, maybe this was Bank of America to
11 validate the validity of cashier's checks.
12 That's what I now think this means. 8-7, 2000,
13 this is the long term address of Ivo Kaanen
14 from the Netherlands, who was going to be
15 involved with the quadplex project, with the
16 knock-off Viagra story being told to him, using
17 his family's different companies to be fronts
18 to buy the glassware for a giant LSD lab in the
19 Netherlands. 7-6, 2000, those are my current
20 private numbers. That would have had a prefix,
21 and then the second number, that's 9002, that
22 would have been a private number that would
23 have gone directly to me. The next number
24 would have been the general number. The next
25 number would have been #2079 to get into the
0759
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1 gate. 7-22, 2000, these are different phone


2 lines of mine, and then it goes to Iv, meaning
3 Ivo. This would have been a Dutch phone
4 number. This number 1919 has been-- Anna Marie
5 is the wife of Ivo Kaanen. This 1919 would
6 have been a phone number of Ivo's since we went
7 to school in Europe together as teenagers.
8 7-22, 2000, another phone number that was a
9 private line for the base, and then a private
10 phone number for the corporation in Tulsa to
11 reach me directly. 7-12, 2000, Gardner Spring
12 fax number. 7-10, 2000, just referring to the
13 amount of money that was owed, $190,000 plus
14 $19,100, then the deduct later from air, and if
15 we probably went to 7-5, we'll find that there
16 is an amount of airfare. If you will go down
17 to 7-5-- I can't point or anything-- if you
18 will go down to line 7-5, you'll see a whole
19 series of airfares. So from that $190,000
20 plus, there would be a deduction. This is just
21 his way of keeping an account. Back to 7-8,
22 2000, this is a car phone, cell phone of mine.
23 Then there would be a base private line besides
24 the 9002. The 5-7 revisited again, $3,000 due
25 for Chicago, San Francisco, and the next, N.
0760
1 must mean Natasha, the amount of the money for
2 round trip, Denver, San Francisco. Then in
3 parentheses, plus +C, that means the amount of
4 money that C was supposed to receive for one
5 week's work officially in the form of a
6 cashier's check that was legitimate that I gave
7 him. Then the next one would be for round trip
8 tickets, $15,602.80, LA, London, San Francisco.
9 6-3, 2000, Platinum Card Travel Services
10 number, this is a way for Leonard to use my
11 Platinum Travel American Express system for
12 buying tickets rapidly. 5-21, 2000, this is a
13 phone number for Bill Wynn. B. W. stands for
14 Bill Wynn. K. I. is-- my mother's name is
15 Kathryn Inez Magrini. This is a long-term
16 house phone number. Emily, previous wife of
17 mine. Rents refers to her parents. This is a
18 long-term phone number of hers. Krystal refers
19 to a phone number that she had in Kansas.
20 5-21, 2000. This is all the American Express
21 data so that Leonard could prove that he was
22 me. All the information was there so that he
23 could prove anywhere in the world that he was
24 me on the phone and get electronic tickets.
25 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Specifically, that information
0761
1 is what?
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2 A. The card number to a Platinum American Express,


3 it's expiration date, the address where the
4 bill is sent, Tulsa, Oklahoma, the 800 number,
5 and the two numbers that would be asked,
6 although there's a typo here-- it should have
7 been 918, not 800-587-- the two numbers that
8 would be asked to verify, Social Security
9 number, date of birth, my date of birth,
10 mother's maiden name, being Kathryn Jackson,
11 current name Magrini, and security code of 6983
12 that's found and printed on the back of
13 American Express card-- or the American
14 Express, they may print that on the front on
15 the Platinum cards. The next line, 5-21, 2000,
16 this would be people that he was in contact
17 with for getting this. Next line is--
18 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, I think he
19 should not just give a short explanation for
20 those that touch on other matters. He's gone
21 on into great narrations on other ones, and I
22 would ask him to give the full narration on the
23 5-21, 2000.
24 THE WITNESS: Can you make it clear
25 to where I can see it all?
0762
1 MR. HOUGH: Can you see it all now?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 MR. HOUGH: I have no problem with
4 that, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Go ahead.
6 A. This is a mixture of both fictitious
7 information I have given him and real
8 information I have given him involving his
9 ability to get a grant for the FEDS project
10 from Warren Buffett. It would be hard for me
11 to dissect what is real, but on this, what I
12 know is real is that these phone numbers do
13 look like they're the real phone numbers to the
14 different Warren Buffett foundations in Omaha,
15 Nebraska. The addresses look approximately
16 correct. The next line on there would be
17 retired Major General Moise 'Mo' B., Benjamin,
18 Seligman, his phone number, his address, and
19 you need to-- in Little Rock, Arkansas. The
20 next line is the Reverend Henry Valentine
21 Spilman, misspelled Spilman, who is the
22 patriarch and the head of the Augustinian
23 order, the person that, again, he puts the-- he
24 being William Leonard Pickard-- in a note says
25 a fictitious situation. This is truly the man
0763
1 that meets every Saturday for 40 years with the
2 head of the Maybee Foundation, who is then
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3 mentioned as Jack in here, the Maybe


4 Foundation's phone number. Move over to make
5 sure I'm not missing anything. I'm sorry. I
6 just don't know how far over it goes. And H.
7 V. Spilman is a long-term friend of mine also
8 in this, so is General Moise Benjamin Seligman,
9 retired Major General. The next line-- is that
10 enough of an explanation?
11 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Yes, yes.
12 A. Okay. 5-12, 2000, this would have been the
13 attorneys that were used for Natasha, when the
14 money was seized, to get recommendations on
15 what to do at the Kansas City airport. We were
16 in a-- trying to-- we were on a hunt to find
17 what to do with that legally. The next line
18 5-12, 2000, this is the phone number of Warren
19 Buffett's wife. Interesting. This is the
20 phone number of my lawyer, Thomas D. Haney. I
21 do not-- I am really confused of this next one
22 being Delaney. Delaney is a billionaire that
23 owns McMaster Car. I do not know that this is
24 a correct entry. I do not know how William
25 Leonard Pickard would have gotten this name.
0764
1 The next one is Arnold Schick (spelled
2 phonetically), a long-term friend of mine and
3 business associate involved in the-- by the
4 way, Delaney is the largest industrial
5 distribution company in the world for parts.
6 Arnold Schick was an employee of Delaney.
7 There's many Delaneys, so I don't know which
8 Delaney this is. I'm just blown away that he
9 has a phone number for him. Arnold Schick is a
10 long-term business associate of mine involved
11 in the spring business. Dan Bleckman (spelled
12 phonetically). The Bleckman is left out. It's
13 a phone number for MSC, Manhattan Supply
14 Company, the third largest industrial
15 distributor in the world. I'm trying to give
16 more, fuller examples of the lines given to me.
17 Q. Mr. Skinner, are you familiar with
18 ergocristine, what it is?
19 A. No-- I mean, yes, I am now, yes.
20 Q. During the course of this conspiracy, to your
21 knowledge, was ergocristine used in the
22 manufacture of LSD?
23 A. No.
24 Q. To your knowledge, what ergot alkaloid was
25 used?
0765
1 A. Ergotamine tartrate, although I know that
2 Leonard was constantly looking for a new source
3 of a lysergamide worldwide.
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4 Q. During this conspiracy, did you, Mr. Apperson,


5 Mr. Pickard, or any combination of you ever
6 discuss what would happen if one or more of you
7 ever got caught?
8 A. There were different forms of that. This is a
9 complicated--
10 Q. Did you have those discussions?
11 A. Yes, informally, formally, I mean, it's
12 difficult, I mean, yes.
13 Q. And did you have them with both Mr. Apperson,
14 both him and Mr. Pickard, or one or the other?
15 A. All of the above.
16 Q. And can you describe for us these scenarios?
17 A. Well, it depended on if, like, one of us got
18 busted with cash at an airport, that would be
19 considered one problem. If one of us got
20 caught with a lab, that's another problem. If
21 one of us got a burn-back somehow where there
22 was a dry conspiracy indictment, that's another
23 problem, and all these had different levels,
24 but generally--
25 MR. BENNETT: Judge, I'm going to
0766
1 object to him talking generally. If there were
2 discussions, I would like to know with regards
3 to each discussion when it was and who it was
4 with. I think we're entitled to know that
5 much.
6 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the witness is
7 describing generally conversations that he's
8 had with both defendants. Counsel can come
9 back on cross-examination and cross-examine at
10 length on the witness's recollection of the
11 dates and times and other specifics of these
12 conversations.
13 MR. BENNETT: Judge, in order for the
14 jury to understand when, where, who, I think
15 we're entitled to know, if he's going to talk
16 about a series of discussions, when they were,
17 where they were, and who was participating
18 rather than just some general hodge-podge of
19 information.
20 THE COURT: Yes, I think that might
21 be a good idea to tie it down more, but in the
22 meantime, ladies and gentlemen, let's take
23 about a 15-minute break at this time, then
24 we'll come back and have further testimony.
25 Mr. Bailiff.
0767
1 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court will
2 stand in recess for 15 minutes.
3 (THEREUPON, a recess was had.
4 WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were had
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5 outside the presence of the jury.)


6 THE COURT: All right, did you
7 gentlemen have something you wanted to discuss?
8 MR. RORK: Judge, yes. On behalf of
9 Mr. Pickard, Exhibit 196 that's been in
10 evidence, evidently Mr. Skinner has gone
11 through and circled certain names in the report
12 and left other names uncircled, and I just
13 object to the names being circled in blue ink
14 on the exhibit and then having that exhibit go
15 to the jury with respect to highlights put on
16 it by Mr. Skinner. That was the first matter I
17 had.
18 MR. BENNETT: We would join in that
19 objection, Your Honor.
20 MR. HOUGH: Judge, Mr. Skinner
21 circled those, as the Court could see, during
22 the course of his testifying. We would submit
23 that there's no harm in it going back. It just
24 identified the ones the witness knew as he had
25 testified regarding.
0768
1 THE COURT: Well, let me think about
2 it. We may-- of course, if we would now give a
3 clean copy, it would lose the impact of the
4 ones he signed, so we'll think that over, take
5 that over and decide what to do about it.
6 MR. RORK: That was just it, Judge.
7 There's 1500 names on there. The second thing,
8 Judge, the government, before the recess, was
9 beginning to ask Mr. Skinner questions about
10 supposedly "plans" if they ever got busted or
11 along those lines, and we would object to the
12 introduction of any such statements as, one,
13 they're hearsay, two, they're not in
14 furtherance of any conspiracy or resulting from
15 a conspiracy, absent a foundation of when those
16 were discussed and to what purpose they were
17 discussed, and I'd ask that he establish a
18 foundation outside the presence of the jury
19 before you make a ruling on whether or not he
20 can have them introduced into evidence before
21 the jury so we don't have to continually make
22 objections while the jury is in here and
23 approach the bench.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Hough, do you want to
25 say something about that?
0769
1 MR. HOUGH: Yes, Judge. The witness
2 was asked specifically during the life of the
3 conspiracy if there were plans. He said yes.
4 He said there were conversations with both Mr.
5 Apperson and Mr. Pickard. These are obvious
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6 coconspirator statements. They're obviously


7 admissible. They're obviously not hearsay.
8 Now, counsel objected and the Court sustained
9 the objection as to requiring the witness to
10 give whatever specificity as to date and time
11 and who was present that he is capable of.
12 When the jury returns, we would expect that he
13 would commence answering the question before
14 him in that manner.
15 THE COURT: All right. Except for
16 that last restriction, trying to give as much
17 information as he can about what we're talking
18 about there, I'll overrule the objections, and
19 we will proceed.
20 MR. BENNETT: Judge, before you-- as
21 I understand it, at least my request, I believe
22 your ruling was that when, where, and who
23 participated in the conversation were the
24 things that I asked for, and I understood you
25 to have sustained that request.
0770
1 THE COURT: Yes, I suggested that
2 that would be a good idea to do that, and we'll
3 try to get it done.
4 MR. BENNETT: Thank you.
5 MR. RORK: Judge, the only other
6 thing I have is I believe Mr. Hough is getting
7 to a point where he may cease his direct
8 examination, and whenever that is after this
9 point in time, I would ask the Court, one, to
10 recess at that point in time and, two,
11 depending upon when Mr. Hough does cease, if it
12 is before noon, that I be able to present
13 further facts and circumstances to you as to
14 some additional time that I would like to have
15 before I can just jump up and start doing
16 cross-examination, items I need to look at.
17 I'm going to attempt to do whatever I can over
18 the noon hour also, but I was going to ask
19 maybe the Court allow-- my ideal request would
20 be to allow me this afternoon to prepare, but
21 if not that, if he gets done before noon,
22 possibly not reconvene until two o'clock or
23 2:30, and then go straight through until 4:30
24 or something. I don't have a transcript, and
25 I've got 200, 300 pages of handwritten notes to
0771
1 try to get ready.
2 THE COURT: Well, I assume cross-
3 examination is going to go on for a long, long
4 time, I assume, but let's wait until Mr. Hough
5 stops, and then we'll talk about that and see
6 where we are.
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7 MR. HOUGH: I only have a couple


8 questions for the witness, Judge. I'm very,
9 very nearly done.
10 THE COURT: All right. Well, let's
11 bring the jury in and do that.
12 (THEREUPON, the following proceedings
13 were held in the presence of the jury.)
14 THE COURT: All right, I believe
15 we're all here. You may be seated, and you may
16 continue.
17 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Mr. Skinner, prior to the
18 recess, you had indicated that there were
19 conversations between you and Mr. Apperson and
20 Mr. Pickard as to what would happen or what
21 should happen in the event that someone were
22 caught. Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you describe for us, with as much
25 specificity as you can as to date, time, and
0772
1 who was present, those discussions?
2 A. I can't tell you the dates. It was a regular
3 kind of an ongoing conversation that would
4 happen at least once every couple of months as
5 technology changed, as our ability to get fake
6 ID, and as new, real passports would come in,
7 and such and such, and technologies would be to
8 our advantage changed, the nature of the
9 conversation would change. So I can't tell you
10 specific dates. I can say that I had more
11 conversations with William Leonard Pickard than
12 I did with Clyde Apperson about this.
13 Q. And can you tell us, then, the content of the
14 conversations and who was present during them?
15 A. When William Leonard Pickard and myself would
16 talk about it post him receiving his British
17 passport or United Kingdom passport that he
18 paid $50,000 for and received it in London, his
19 idea was anything that was above a certain
20 amount of a problem-- i.e., the Natasha seizure
21 of money would not have triggered this kind of
22 escape unless it had blown back-- but if it was
23 a fairly serious hit, in other words, a down
24 stream person, one of our employees gets
25 arrested carrying a lab, something like that,
0773
1 he would flee, basically, to Spain and remote
2 control damage control to Spain-- from Spain on
3 his British passport or whatever other means he
4 had. I was to do whatever I needed to do,
5 which my options were less because I didn't
6 have those technologies to move around on. I
7 could have. I just never ponied up and did it.
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8 I was very suspect of a source of all these


9 documents from my just reading. I'm more
10 skeptical than he is, and obtaining fictitious
11 passports that are real is a pretty skeptical
12 project for me. I worried about it. So my
13 means of doing it would be different than his
14 means of doing it.
15 Q. And the discussions you had in the presence of
16 or with Mr. Apperson?
17 A. Yes. Clyde once was very serious with me and
18 said, "How did Leonard get out of the Mountain
19 View arrest and charges?" And I said, "Well, I
20 can only tell you that he did some cooperation
21 or something like that. I'm not fully aware of
22 how he did it." He said Alexander T. Shulgin
23 played a part in helping him out. I told him
24 that he had heads-up warning that there was a
25 meth lab in the neighborhood and it was going
0774
1 to be busted, and that was the warning, and it
2 was actually his lab that was going to be
3 busted, and Leonard said he really knocked
4 himself in the head for not realizing the
5 chances of a meth lab being in his neighborhood
6 along with his LSD lab. Clyde asked me
7 specifically what would happen, do I think that
8 Leonard would roll on us if there was a
9 problem, what would be done, what mechanically
10 should be done, and I gave him some advice. I
11 said, you know, "If you're really that worried
12 about it," you know, "get some alternative ID
13 and don't tell anyone the names on the
14 alternative ID and plan a route and have money
15 sitting somewhere for such an event."
16 Q. During the course of your testimony, sir, you
17 have identified a community within which you
18 and Mr. Apperson and Mr. Pickard are also
19 members. Do you recall that testimony?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you have identified for us with some
22 specificity consequences of a member of that
23 community cooperating with the government and
24 testifying against other members. Do you
25 recall that testimony?
0775
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In light of that, do you have any concerns
3 about testifying here in this matter?
4 MR. RORK: Well, Judge, I object to
5 the nature of this question. May we approach?
6 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
7 (THEREUPON, the following proceedings
8 were held at the bench and outside of the
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9 hearing of the jury.)


10 MR. RORK: Judge, I object to the
11 prosecution trying to bolster or somehow vouch
12 for the honesty and veracity of this witness by
13 alleging concerns about him testifying. That
14 has nothing to do with the issues in this
15 trial. The grant of immunity was the question
16 for him to, "Oh, yeah, I have concerns about my
17 safety" or concerns about this. They parade
18 him up and down in front of the jury every
19 break with an escort to and from the bathroom
20 every time the jury's walking down the
21 hallways. They've done everything else to try
22 and show that they're protecting this witness,
23 so to speak, versus hoping he sticks around and
24 doesn't run. But I would object to any type of
25 responses to the questions that would bolster
0776
1 any of his veracity or propensity to tell the
2 truth that he's concerned about his safety.
3 That's just improper. I believe the probative
4 value substantially outweighs any unfair
5 prejudice.
6 MR. BENNETT: Judge, I would join in
7 the objection, and the question that was asked
8 and whatever the answer might be at this time
9 will not tend to prove or disprove any of the
10 issues in this lawsuit. Whether he's got some
11 concern about testifying or not doesn't prove
12 anything in this case. It's not evidence.
13 It's improper, and we strongly object to it.
14 MR. HOUGH: Well, Judge, a witness's
15 concerns regarding testimony, particularly a
16 witness who is a confidential informant who's
17 come from the same community as the defendants
18 he's testifying against, that is legitimate
19 evidence. It's admissible. I don't know
20 whether Mr. Rork mispoke or not, but his
21 comment was the probative value substantially
22 outweighed the prejudice, which is accurate.
23 However, I believe he misspoke. But under 403,
24 the analysis would weigh in favor of admission.
25 In every case I've tried in this Court and in
0777
1 the District, we've been allowed to ask
2 questions of confidential informants, and we
3 believe this would be no different rule in this
4 case.
5 MR. BENNETT: I don't know about any
6 other case. I don't know if there was
7 objection in any other case, but we're trying
8 this case, and we've objected on the basis--
9 MR. RORK: If I did misstate it, the
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10 prejudice substantially outweighs the probative


11 value. There have been no identifiable
12 threats, no information involved in indication
13 of along with what their "plans" if they did
14 get popped that then, in the event one of them
15 testified, the other was going to kill the
16 other or something like that. I would object
17 to the relevance of it.
18 MR. HOUGH: If you will recall, Mr.
19 Skinner had a conversation with Mr. Pickard on
20 the recording where Mr. Pickard specifically
21 indicated the informant in Oregon had been
22 killed. Mr. Pickard's voice was unequivocally
23 clear in that comment in the tape that was
24 played yesterday-- or what is today, Thursday?
25 Whatever, the day before or yesterday. So it's
0778
1 out there. This witness does in fact have
2 concerns, and those concerns are being
3 addressed. The fact that he has concerns and
4 in spite of those concerns is testifying here
5 is relevant and is admissible.
6 THE COURT: What was your last
7 question?
8 MR. HOUGH: My question was-- well,
9 there were three of them: "You have testified
10 about the community that you were a part of."
11 "Yes." "You've testified about what happens
12 when a member of the community testifies
13 against another member of the community." Then
14 the question present before the witness:
15 "Based upon that, do you have concerns about
16 testifying here?" That is foundation in the
17 way the question came before the witness.
18 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to allow
19 him to answer the question that he has
20 concerns.
21 MR. BENNETT: Judge, before we do
22 that, if he answers that question
23 affirmatively, yes, then are you going to allow
24 him to go to the next question, "What are your
25 concerns?"
0779
1 MR. HOUGH: I'm not going to ask that
2 question.
3 THE COURT: No. I'm not.
4 MR. BENNETT: I don't agree with the
5 Court's ruling. I understand it. I don't want
6 to go to the next-- I wanted an opportunity
7 to--
8 MR. RORK: And again, Judge, I would
9 just note a continuing objection and defer to
10 your ruling.
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11 THE COURT: All right.


12 (THEREUPON, the bench conference was
13 concluded and the following proceedings were
14 held within hearing of the jury.)
15 THE COURT: You my proceed.
16 Q. (By Mr. Hough) Simple yes or no will do. Do
17 you have concerns about testifying here?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in spite of those concerns, have you told
20 us the truth?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. RORK: I object to the question
23 he told the truth. That's for the jury to
24 decide and invades the province of the jury.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
0780
1 MR. HOUGH: Judge, I have no further
2 questions. Thank you, Mr. Skinner. Your
3 witness.
4 (THEREUPON, the direct examination
5 of Gordon Todd Skinner has been previously
6 transcribed and is contained in a separate
7 volume.)
8 THE COURT: Pat, come here.
9 (THEREUPON, there was a conversation
10 in low tones between the Court and the
11 Bailiff.)
12 THE COURT: I think you may step down
13 now, and ladies and gentlemen, we're now ready
14 to start with cross-examination of this
15 witness, and I believe that what we'll do is to
16 just recess now and come back and start again
17 at 1:30, and I would like to start the
18 cross-examination at that time. So let's now
19 recess until 1:30. We'll see you back here at
20 that time, and we'll hear further cross-
21 examination. Mr. Bailiff, let's recess.
22 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court will
23 stand in recess until 1:30.
24 (THEREUPON, a recess was had.)
25 THE COURT: All right, we're all
0781
1 present. Yes, you need to take the stand.
2 Yes, sir.
3 MR. RORK: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. RORK:
6 Q. Mr. Skinner, this isn't the first case that you
7 have been a confidential informant in. Is that
8 correct?
9 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we'll object. Ask
10 to approach.
11 THE COURT: All right, you may.
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12 (THEREUPON, the following proceedings


13 were held at the bench and outside of the
14 hearing of the jury.)
15 MR. HOUGH: Judge, as to impeachment
16 matters, we would submit that this is an
17 inappropriate impeachment. The Court has
18 previously ruled that the Worthy matter, which
19 Mr. Skinner was previously an informant on, is
20 off limits in toto.
21 MR. RORK: Judge, number one, I just
22 reviewed the Secret Service file over the noon
23 hour, in the time that I had. In that, it
24 indicates Mr. Skinner says he was an informant
25 for the DEA. My question was, trying not to--
0782
1 I'm sure Mr. Hough has instructed him what he
2 can or can't talk about. On the question, this
3 isn't the first time you have been an
4 informant, for that purpose, number one, and
5 number two, Mr. Hough's last question,
6 cooperative individual, concerns about his
7 safety, and it goes to both those issues with
8 the DEA and the fact that he's been-- I'm not
9 going to ask him about the Worthy case. I
10 think he can answer the question yes or no.
11 MR. HOUGH: Judge, his prior
12 cooperation is in the Worthy case. This Court
13 has ruled it's totally off limits. To start
14 the questioning in direct contravention of
15 pending orders of this Court is absolutely
16 outrageous, knowing that this is going to be
17 objected to, knowing it's off limits. There's
18 no excuse for it, and we would ask that counsel
19 be admonished to move on and the jury
20 instructed to--
21 MR. RORK: I would ask the Court to--
22 hasn't said-- it doesn't say he said he was an
23 informant for the DEA before. If I can't go on
24 information in that file, I don't know what I
25 can go on. I tried to base the question as
0783
1 close as I could so he would not-- agents were
2 sitting there with me the whole time.
3 MR. BENNETT: Judge, if I might just
4 join in. I know I'm not the one asking the
5 question at this point, but I think that I've
6 read the same thing in the Secret Service file
7 over the noon hour, that he claims-- claimed to
8 the Secret Service to be, to have been a DEA
9 informant in the state of Florida and,
10 certainly, I would think that that-- that does
11 not, with that regard, doesn't in any way
12 violate the Court's order, and additionally, I
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13 think it is relevant if he claims he has some


14 concerns as an informant. I think that opens
15 up the door to allow us to make inquiry of him
16 and to establish with this jury if it's not his
17 first time, that whether or not he had concerns
18 before and whether or not any of those concerns
19 proved to be valid.
20 MR. RORK: And that's why I started
21 where I did, Judge, because that's where he
22 ended off.
23 MR. HOUGH: Absolutely nothing about
24 the cross-examination (sic) justifies this
25 inquiry. It is cooperation, and the witness
0784
1 has been instructed that the Worthy matter is
2 off limits. So now we're in a Catch-22 where
3 for him to answer this question truthfully, he
4 has to say yes, what he is going to be thinking
5 about is the Worthy matter. That's what we
6 discussed over lunch, what was off limits.
7 Prior cooperation in the state of Florida,
8 foundationally, unless there can be a proffer,
9 one, that there is a good-faith basis that
10 occurred, two, when it occurred so that the
11 Court can make a determination of when it was,
12 or whether it was remote in time at all or--
13 and whether or not it's even relevant to what
14 occurred in this case. Contextually, the
15 witness's concerns were regarding providing
16 information on people that were within his
17 community. He made that very clear, both me in
18 the questioning and he in his answer. The
19 question and the answer were limited to that.
20 He's not cooperated on people within this
21 community in the past, and counsel are aware of
22 that, for one. For two, the prior cooperation
23 that's first and foremost in this witness's
24 mind and that we have hashed and rehashed here
25 is the State v. Worthy, and our position is
0785
1 it's totally unjustifiable, based upon the
2 rulings of this Court, to open this up
3 immediately, knowing it's going to draw an
4 objection in front of the jury.
5 MR. RORK: Judge, if I may state for
6 the purpose of the record the government ended
7 with big hoo-haa about his cooperation. I went
8 down and reviewed the file there. Mr. Bennett
9 took one side, I took the other side, in the
10 time allotted, 20 minutes to review it. It
11 talks about January 24, 2000, and February 1,
12 2000. In conversation with the Secret Service,
13 Mr. Skinner said he had cooperated before. I
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14 don't remember in Florida. I had just seen the


15 DEA before this is before July and November of
16 2000. The government had ended with his
17 concerns, and before I got to anything about
18 Worthy-- I wanted to approach the Court about
19 that. I'm not here to rehash that. I was here
20 to object to the question, and I object to the
21 government trying to get the witness answers
22 when they know he has been instructed about
23 that, and he can answer yes or no. And now I
24 know it's Florida, I can go on into another
25 area. But I'm going by what I had in the
0786
1 limited time to review trying to get to cross,
2 and it was the last thing he started with--
3 ended with.
4 MR. HOUGH: Judge, if counsel was
5 unclear as to the when or the where of this, it
6 would not be appropriate to start off
7 immediately with it. Counsel has been taking
8 notes for the last five days that Mr. Skinner
9 has been testifying. There are a number of
10 things that they can cross-examine on that are
11 clear and not barred by orders of the Court.
12 Counsel must have a good-faith basis and not be
13 in violation of a Court order to propound a
14 question. What happened here did not do either
15 of those.
16 THE COURT: As of now, I'm going to
17 sustain the objection because I can't tell what
18 you're trying to do here, whether we're getting
19 into the Worthy matter or other matters I have
20 been trying to stop, so I'm going to sustain
21 the objection. You can start on something
22 else. We'll look into it.
23 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we ask that you
24 inform the jury to disregard the question.
25 MR. RORK: Judge, I object to that
0787
1 because, again, that's where the government
2 ended, the cooperation and concerns he had.
3 But I don't think the government can choose the
4 questions I can ask. I'm not in violation of
5 any order, and I can start where he ends his
6 case, which is the first thing on the jury's
7 mind when they come back.
8 THE COURT: Nothing he said when he
9 ended his case allows you to disregard a Court
10 order, which I'm afraid you're trying to do.
11 We'll continue to look at this.
12 MR. RORK: And for the record, I was
13 not violating a Court order, and the basis was
14 the DEA cooperation, secret Service. The prior
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15 cooperation in the last two questions dealt


16 with his concern. So if he has concerns about
17 the fact he previously cooperated with the DEA,
18 I don't think that was the DEA, Judge, it was a
19 state court, and that was my question to him.
20 MR. BENNETT: Judge, before I start
21 my cross-examination, I'd like to know whether
22 or not I can go into this Florida situation or
23 not. I mean, if there's some confusion, I'm
24 talking about Florida, and he indicated DEA
25 informant in Miami or he served--
0788
1 THE COURT: We'll tell you, and we'll
2 continue to study this.
3 MR. RORK: If you're going to
4 continue to study it and you will not admonish
5 the jury, I'll go on to other questions then.
6 THE COURT: I'm not going to admonish
7 the jury.
8 (THEREUPON, the bench conference was
9 concluded and the following proceedings were
10 held within hearing of the jury.)
11 Q. (By Mr. Rork) What's the status of your
12 education?
13 A. High school education and some college and
14 university in Europe.
15 Q. What high school did you go to?
16 A. Cascia Hall Preparatory School, Tulsa,
17 Oklahoma, ran by the order of the-- the
18 Augustinian Order.
19 Q. What year?
20 A. From 1976 to 1982.
21 Q. And is that where you met William Wynn?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was in Tulsa, Oklahoma?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And what year did you graduate?
0789
1 A. 1982.
2 Q. And what was your education after that point in
3 time?
4 A. Went to Europe in Heidelberg-- West Germany at
5 the time was where Heidelberg was located
6 before the fall of the Berlin wall-- and went
7 to school in Shiller (spelled phonetically)
8 International University.
9 Q. How many hours did you take?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. What classes did you take?
12 A. Money and banking, finance, financial, currency
13 fluctuations, insurance and risk analysis,
14 multinational accounting, that kind of classes.
15 Q. And what time period?
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16 A. 1983.
17 Q. So just one year?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At the time you were in high school, were you
20 employed anywhere?
21 A. I worked at Gardner Industries.
22 Q. In Tulsa?
23 A. In Tulsa, Oklahoma.
24 Q. In what capacity?
25 A. I would do design and engineering, price
0790
1 quotes, quality control. I was over
2 manufacturing.
3 Q. In high school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that was because of your mathematical and
6 other managerial skills?
7 A. Well, I didn't have what I would call
8 managerial skills, but I did have a strong math
9 background.
10 Q. Did you go directly from high school to
11 Heidelberg?
12 A. Well, no, I had a summer break.
13 Q. Were you employed during that summer break?
14 A. Yes. I believe I worked at Gardner during that
15 period, yes.
16 Q. And then when you went to Heidelberg in 1983,
17 did you just do studies, or were you also
18 employed at that time?
19 A. No. I mean, I did-- I had to make-- my income
20 wouldn't-- the amount of money that my mother
21 was sending me, due to the major cost of
22 Europe, didn't cover all my costs, so I had to
23 supplement my income.
24 Q. And how did you do that?
25 A. At that time the banks only had a very short,
0791
1 narrow time that they opened up currency
2 exchange, and so I would carry three, four
3 different currencies around at a time and trade
4 them with the other international students 24
5 hours a day, whenever they would need them, and
6 there were people that were coming from the
7 Middle East to the same school, and they would
8 get a check in on a given day, and I would loan
9 them money until the check came in.
10 Q. Charge them an interest rate or a fee?
11 A. Small fee. Mainly, it was to get the exchange
12 rate. I would give the same exchange rate as
13 the bank, or close to it.
14 Q. And in doing that exchange rate and the loaning
15 of money, again, you used your mathematical and
16 your employment skills?
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17 A. Well, I mean, yeah. This could have been done


18 with, you know, seventh grade math.
19 Q. Had you done any gambling over in Europe at
20 that point in time or elsewhere?
21 A. No, I hadn't gambled in Europe.
22 Q. You had talked earlier about that you had a
23 number of high school students, with respect to
24 study that you undertook, for them using drugs
25 and finding out which ones you liked and didn't
0792
1 like. What year in school were you when that
2 occurred?
3 A. I think that would have started '79 on.
4 Q. And do you recall the first drug use you had?
5 A. My first drug use I had?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes, mescaline, on the cusp of the age of 19,
8 of what would be called entheogens. Obviously,
9 I had some much lesser-type things, like I had
10 some alcohol, not much. I never drank in high
11 school. I drank in Germany twice and didn't
12 like it.
13 Q. So then let's--
14 A. I think I had laughing gas in high school. I
15 had something called adrenaline carbarsone or
16 something like that, that was used to-- you
17 know, minor, minor things.
18 Q. With respect to the-- do you know which came
19 first, the laughing gas or the second thing you
20 said?
21 A. Probably the laughing gas.
22 Q. And what was the effect and purpose in that?
23 A. Oh, somebody was driving me home from high
24 school and said, "Here, suck the stuff out of
25 this whipping cream can," and I said, "Why,"
0793
1 and they said, "Just do it and hold it," and I
2 did it, and I had a laughing gas experience and
3 was surprised. I said, "Is there anything
4 dangerous in that?" And they said, no, they do
5 it all the time.
6 Q. What was the effect that you noticed from it?
7 A. Actually, I didn't laugh. I noticed some sort
8 of elevation, euphoria.
9 Q. And what do you mean by that?
10 A. Uplifted spirits slightly. I mean--
11 Q. And did you do it again after that one time?
12 A. Yeah, I did some more laughing gas.
13 Q. On how many occasions do you think at that
14 point?
15 A. Don't know.
16 Q. Numerous times?
17 A. Yeah.
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18 Q. And would you have to use more gas each time to


19 increase the effect?
20 A. No, that's not the nature of the laughing gas.
21 Q. How much would you need to use to obtain any
22 effect?
23 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we'll object.
24 This is remote in time. We're talking about
25 events in 1979. It's irrelevant.
0794
1 MR. RORK: Judge, again, I think when
2 he asked these questions, I interposed an
3 objection. Mr. Hough said wait until cross,
4 going into his drug use. He said it would be
5 easier to go on the drugs he didn't use. I'm
6 trying to establish his history of drug use.
7 THE COURT: I'll overrule the
8 objection. You may go ahead.
9 THE WITNESS: I have a question now
10 if we're going to get into this. Mr. Hough,
11 may I please have that list I prepared for the
12 Court, since this is going to be so intensive?
13 MR. HOUGH: Judge, the witness, as
14 the Court may be aware, provided a list of the
15 items he had previously listed in direct
16 examination for the purposes of the court
17 reporter getting them down correctly. We ask
18 that he be allowed to refer to that during this
19 line of questioning.
20 MR. RORK: Judge, I believe Mr.
21 Skinner asked the government for something. I
22 just object to the government giving an
23 explanation. He can give him the list if he
24 needs it to refresh his recollection. I have
25 no objection.
0795
1 MR. HOUGH: May I approach the
2 witness?
3 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Hough.
5 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Can I just use it, see it on the
6 overhead, since you've got it there?
7 A. If you'll wait until I get to the page with
8 nitrous oxide on it. Okay?
9 Q. Well, if you have the list up there, I'd prefer
10 to go over the list.
11 A. We're going to be here for a couple of years.
12 Here we go. It's all yours. Is there another
13 copy of this list so I can sit and read
14 something, because it's hard reading this?
15 Q. Well, what I think I'll do is I'm going to look
16 at it first. I may let you keep it and get one
17 at the break.
18 A. Okay. I'll gladly give you a floppy, since I
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19 give the court reporter a floppy of it also.


20 Q. Just for brevity purposes, I would hand you
21 what's been marked as P-20, a typewritten list,
22 and if you could look at that-- you can hang on
23 to it for a while-- can you identify what that
24 list is and what it contains?
25 A. This is the best recollection of what I
0796
1 consider what would be called, quote, chemical
2 usage of my lifetime that I could get down, and
3 with the difficulties of definitions and
4 things, I'm doing the best I can with this
5 list.
6 Q. And who prepared that list?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. And when did you prepare that list?
9 A. Over a weekend when the court reporter asked me
10 to.
11 Q. Recently?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And have you gone over that list?
14 A. Well, I mean, I've tried to go over it. Yes, I
15 mean, I've made typo corrections on it.
16 Q. But you prepared it on a computer that you had
17 all the time you needed?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And besides the spelling of the items that are
20 contained on there, you also were preparing the
21 list to include the nature of the items or
22 substances you abused?
23 A. Now, what do you mean the nature?
24 Q. Well, identifying what they are.
25 A. Correct.
0797
1 MR. RORK: Your Honor, at this time I
2 would move for introduction of P-20.
3 MR. HOUGH: May I voir dire briefly,
4 Judge?
5 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
6 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. HOUGH:
8 Q. Mr. Skinner, is this list all inclusive from
9 '79 to present or intended to be?
10 A. This is from the beginning of my life that I
11 can remember being, you know, whatever was even
12 told to me, like, if I had a surgery when I was
13 four years old on, to the best I can do.
14 Q. And is there any indication in the document of
15 the period of time--
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- or how much--
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- or anything like that?
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20 A. No.
21 Q. Does it include such things as over-the-counter
22 items?
23 A. Yes, yes, and also prescriptions.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. But there may be some prescriptions that I have
0798
1 left out that I've forgotten when I was seven
2 or eight or nine years old.
3 MR. RORK: Judge, I'm going to go
4 through all that.
5 MR. HOUGH: Judge, I have no
6 objection to the document, with that
7 foundation.
8 THE COURT: All right, that will be
9 admitted.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Contd.)
11 BY MR. RORK:
12 Q. Go ahead and hold on to that a little bit then.
13 While we're on that, prior to your coming here
14 to testify last week-- and that would have been
15 what, January 27, 2003?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When did you first know what day you were going
18 to be called upon to testify here, do you know?
19 A. I mean, I have been notified numerous times I
20 was supposed to come here and testify.
21 Q. But for the January 13, 2003, trial, when were
22 you aware when you were going to be testifying?
23 A. I was twice notified. Once I was notified over
24 the phone by Carl Nichols on approximately July
25 the 15th, I think, of the year 2000, then I was
0799
1 handed a subpoena another time.
2 Q. With respect to the January 13, 2003,
3 proceedings.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. When did you last review any documents with
6 respect to this case before January 13, 2003?
7 A. Before January 13?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Sometime within the week before that.
10 Q. And did you come here to review them?
11 A. I came to this building.
12 Q. And do you recall what you reviewed then about
13 a week before January 13th?
14 A. I reviewed transcripts.
15 Q. And let's go-- were those transcripts of the
16 recordings that have been played here?
17 A. That's correct, and also the video.
18 Q. The video that I saw for the first time with
19 the jury?
20 A. I don't know if you saw it for the first time,
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21 so--
22 Q. Well, I'm talking about the video machines that
23 are here.
24 A. Well, whatever. I don't know when you first
25 saw it, so you're going to have to be more
0800
1 specific.
2 Q. We'll go back then. You saw a video recording
3 of October 23, 2000?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then you also listened to transcripts that
6 were recorded in 2000?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And can you tell me, Mr. Skinner, did you
9 listen to the original transcripts that were
10 recorded in 2000, or did you listen to what's
11 been noted as an enhanced copy of the original
12 recording? Do you know?
13 A. The answer to your question would be no.
14 Q. You don't know?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. So when you wrote that-- did you look at a
17 transcript, a written transcript at the time
18 you were listening to--
19 A. Give me which time. Which time are we talking
20 about?
21 Q. The week before January 13, 2003.
22 A. I believe those would be the enhanced
23 transcripts. I don't know.
24 Q. Well, I was going to get to that. So the
25 question would be if you looked at transcripts
0801
1 at the time you were listening to recordings.
2 The answer would be yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you believe those might have been
5 what's called enhanced transcripts?
6 A. I believe that's the nomenclature.
7 Q. And did you listen to them here in this
8 building?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when you listened to them, did you take a
11 pen or pencil and make any notations on the
12 copies of the transcript you had before you for
13 any changes that needed to be addressed?
14 A. Yes, but it was not for changes. It was--
15 there were-- I was trying to identify was it an
16 A, B, C. I was putting those kind of notations
17 afterwards.
18 Q. So you didn't, then, prepare the conversation
19 between you and Mr. Pickard. Correct?
20 A. I don't know what you mean.
21 Q. Well, the times of the recording conversations
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22 that have been played here.


23 A. Again, ask a question that I understand better.
24 Q. And the question I asked you was: Those are
25 recording between you and Mr. Pickard?
0802
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. All right. Now, if you understand that
3 question, you weren't the one that prepared the
4 transcript that you were then looking at to
5 compare to the tape, were you?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. That was prepared by somebody else, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so the jury understands, then, when you've
10 indicated you compared the transcripts and you
11 looked (sic) at the recording, you looked at
12 what somebody else prepared as a transcript and
13 then listened to the recordings. Right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And you don't know whether it was the enhanced
16 transcripts or not?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And you didn't then, at the time you listened
19 to any of those recordings, the audio
20 recordings, at no time did you then make
21 changes in the written transcript to put in,
22 change who said what between you, Pickard, or
23 Apperson?
24 A. There was numerous pages. I may have made one
25 change, I don't know, or a couple. I can't
0803
1 recall. I don't remember.
2 Q. That's all I'm trying to get. So maybe one or
3 two changes you may have made?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. On things that you listened to that you
6 believed in listening didn't comport to the
7 written word. Correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And do you know if any of those changes you
10 made were then incorporated into either of the
11 transcripts that the jury was allowed to see at
12 the time the recording was played?
13 A. I believe Carl Nichols made the changes, or he
14 had the person that needed to make the changes
15 make them. I'm doing this from the best I can
16 know.
17 Q. And again, you weren't the one that prepared
18 these original transcripts?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And we were all here, could hear the tapes
21 ourselves to see what words went to what
22 person. Correct?
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23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because when they were played again in the
25 courtroom, you looked at this monitor and
0804
1 viewed what was going on at that time.
2 Correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And in the course of doing that, did you happen
5 to make any changes in what you heard on the
6 recordings as to what was showing up on the
7 transcript here, where there were incorrections
8 or there were--
9 A. You mean while I was sitting here?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No. I made no changes.
12 Q. So a week before January 13, 2003--
13 A. Approximately a week.
14 Q. -- approximately, how long a time do you think
15 you spent on the audio recordings and video
16 recordings and comparing them to the written
17 transcripts?
18 A. That particular time?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Maybe a total of four and a half or five hours.
21 Q. That was during-- how long a period of time
22 were you here that week before?
23 A. I mean, a minimum of ten days.
24 Q. And so over that ten-day period then, about
25 four and a half, five hours were used listening
0805
1 to tapes and looking at the words?
2 A. (Witness nods head up and down.)
3 Q. You need to answer out loud for her.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So other than looking at those tapes then--
6 excuse me-- looking at the transcripts and
7 listening to the tapes, what else did you
8 review to assist you for your testimony here?
9 A. Went over interviews that I had with different
10 DEA agents.
11 Q. And when you were present, Agent Nichols was
12 here?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Hough was there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. We wasn't there. Hanzlik was here?
17 A. Not necessarily.
18 Q. Tell me who was here then.
19 A. Hanzlik could have been there. Generally, Carl
20 Nichols was there.
21 Q. And you went down to one of the conference
22 rooms downstairs?
23 A. Correct.
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24 Q. And when you say you looked at the reports that


25 various agents had prepared in this particular
0806
1 case, do you know how long a period of time in
2 this ten days would have been looking at these
3 reports?
4 A. No, I can't recall.
5 Q. An hour, or more than an hour?
6 A. Considerably more than an hour.
7 Q. And did you know if you went through those in
8 chronological order or alphabetical order?
9 A. Neither.
10 Q. How was it decided which report you were going
11 to look at to assist you for your testimony
12 here?
13 A. It was handed to me. There was no decision
14 process that I knew about.
15 Q. In any fashion, like by the names of the
16 witnesses?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Or by page number?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And what were you told when this was handed to
21 you?
22 A. "Here, Todd, read these."
23 Q. And did you then read something, and then would
24 you have a discussion with Mr. Nichols?
25 A. Not usually. He usually was doing other work.
0807
1 Q. So at the times that not usually, you didn't
2 have a discussion, were there times that you
3 did have a discussion with him?
4 A. Occasionally, but they usually didn't pertain
5 to the reports, or there was some redacted
6 reports versus reports that weren't redacted,
7 so I had some confusion areas, and then there
8 was some reports where there were changes made,
9 and those changes I had to deal with.
10 Q. And while we're on the subject of the redacted
11 reports, prior to January 2001, this week
12 before trial, when would you say that the next
13 time before then would have been before you
14 reviewed any reports?
15 A. I flew to Oakland and reviewed some reports
16 with Agent Nichols.
17 Q. What time period?
18 A. Sometime in the summer of the year 2002.
19 Q. And do you know how much time you spent that
20 occasion?
21 A. Two days.
22 Q. And, again, was it just reviewing reports, or
23 was there anything else you were doing?
24 A. I think it was just reviewing reports.
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25 Q. Listen to any tapes and compare any


0808
1 transcripts?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Same ones you looked at a couple weeks ago?
4 A. They were not with the-- they were not the same
5 nature. They were where they were just a tape
6 and transcript.
7 Q. Oh, so when you were here a couple weeks ago,
8 you got the CD ROM version?
9 A. Right. I had not seen or gone extensively over
10 that prior to that.
11 Q. So the paper ones would have been in the
12 summer, and the CD ROM ones were a couple weeks
13 ago?
14 A. I believe that's the case.
15 Q. And so prior to that time in the summer of 2002
16 that you spent two days looking at some
17 reports, do you know when you then last met
18 with Nichols or anyone to review some reports?
19 A. No, I can't recall.
20 Q. Do you recall that would have been on or about
21 June 25, 2002?
22 A. I mean, if you're going to look at something,
23 please let me look at it, and I will help you
24 with it.
25 Q. I was looking at Agent Nichols' grand jury
0809
1 testimony.
2 A. That's fine. If you will let me see it, then I
3 can tell you if that's the case.
4 Q. That has nothing to do with the date. I was
5 just asking you the date June 25.
6 A. I'm not going to answer without being able to
7 read what you're reading from.
8 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we'll object. If
9 counsel is going to refer to reports, which
10 that is, we'd ask that counsel provide it to
11 the witness so he can give more accurate
12 answers to his questions.
13 MR. RORK: Judge, I'm not reviewing
14 to a report. I have grand jury testimony
15 there, and I asked him the date. If he doesn't
16 know the date, he can say he doesn't know. He
17 doesn't have a right to review what I'm looking
18 at anyway.
19 THE COURT: Well, do you know the
20 date?
21 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
22 THE COURT: Fine.
23 Q. (By Mr. Rork) So other than the summer of
24 2002, do you recall a few months before that
25 occasion meeting with Agent Nichols and looking
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0810
1 at some reports?
2 A. I recall meeting with him. The phrase "few
3 months before," I'm not going to say. Yes, I
4 met with him before that at some point and
5 reviewed documents again.
6 Q. And last-- the week you were here for ten days
7 a few weeks ago, were you given any copies to
8 take with you?
9 A. Of what?
10 Q. Of reports or tapes or anything.
11 A. I was given no tape, no tapes.
12 Q. What about transcripts of tapes?
13 A. No transcripts of tapes.
14 Q. Okay. Instead of playing fish, why don't you
15 tell me what you were given then?
16 A. The only thing I was ever given was some
17 reports.
18 Q. And do you know what those reports-- how many
19 pages that may have consisted of?
20 A. No, I don't know, sir.
21 Q. A hundred pages?
22 A. Less probably. I don't know.
23 Q. Well, did you read the items that you were
24 given?
25 A. No, I was too ill with the flu.
0811
1 Q. So the reports that you visited, do you recall
2 whether or not those were reports of interviews
3 with you?
4 A. They were supposed to be, but I never opened
5 them up.
6 Q. Were you given in the summer of 2002, when you
7 met with Nichols for two days, any written
8 reports to review?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And the time before that when you met with him
11 earlier-- you told me you met with him two
12 times in 2002 to review reports?
13 A. Yes, I hope-- I actually--
14 Q. I mean, if you don't know, that's okay.
15 A. I don't know. I'm not for sure it was two
16 times, so I can't answer you.
17 Q. Every time that-- then you arrived here last
18 Tuesday to testify. Do you recall that?
19 A. This building, yes.
20 Q. Yes. And did you look at any exhibits that had
21 been in these plastic cases that are here prior
22 to your testifying?
23 A. Yes, a box of exhibits were handed to me.
24 Q. And do you recall how long you looked at those?
25 A. A couple of hours.
0812
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1 Q. Twelve hours?
2 A. No, I said a couple of hours.
3 Q. And throughout the time that you have been here
4 since last Tuesday, on breaks, when we'd break,
5 you have had a chance to look at exhibits and
6 go over items, have you not?
7 A. A couple of times.
8 Q. And after you have been asked questions by the
9 government, whether it be a morning break or
10 evening break, you have had a chance to visit
11 with Mr. Nichols and others about your
12 testimony, have you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember an occasion sitting down with
15 Nichols and going through reports he had
16 prepared in this case, and then looking at the
17 reports numbered paragraph by paragraph, and
18 making any changes or corrections that you
19 wanted?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall whether you did that on one
22 occasion or more than one occasion?
23 A. More than one occasion.
24 Q. Going back to the high school period of time
25 that you were talking about some of the drug
0813
1 use you have given so far, when did you start
2 conducting the experiments with these high
3 school students to determine what drugs you
4 didn't want to do? Same time period?
5 A. No. That wasn't the nature, so the form of
6 your question is incorrect, so you need to ask
7 the question differently.
8 Q. I'll ask the question, Mr. Skinner. If you
9 can't answer, just tell us that.
10 MR. HOUGH: Objection, augmentative,
11 Judge. The question is confusing, assumes
12 facts not in evidence, contrary to direct
13 examination. We'd ask that counsel clarify.
14 THE COURT: Apparently, he doesn't
15 understand your question, so ask it again,
16 please.
17 MR. RORK: He said he understood it,
18 he just said it was compound, it wasn't in the
19 right form, which is a legal objection.
20 THE COURT: Whatever he said, try to
21 help him.
22 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Do you recall the testimony that
23 you indicated that you used high school
24 students for guinea pigs to determine what kind
25 of drugs you didn't want to use?
0814
1 A. No, I actually said I used them as guinea pigs
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2 to figure out the effects, and that resulted


3 in--
4 Q. When did you start?
5 A. -- a list of items I would not use. There were
6 two different functions in there.
7 Q. Will you tell us, when did you start using them
8 as guinea pigs to determine the effects?
9 A. Seventy-nine, '78, '80.
10 Q. And would that list of drugs that's been
11 admitted help you to determine what the drugs
12 were that you had them use to determine the
13 effects?
14 A. I believe so.
15 Q. And since they're numbered in there, can you
16 just say a number and then what they were that
17 you were involved with at that time?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. That's Exhibit P-20.
20 A. Twenty-two
21 Q. Corresponds to what drug?
22 A. Tetrahydroharmine.
23 Q. And if you can, Mr. Skinner, when you say,
24 like, tetrahydrocarbine (sic)--
25 A. Harmine.
0815
1 Q. Harmine?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If those happen to have, like, an initial that
4 goes to them--
5 A. There are no initials for tetrahydroharmine.
6 That is its correct nomenclature name.
7 Q. And if in some of your descriptions there are
8 initials that go with the word after the word,
9 would you help us with the initials or help me
10 with the initials?
11 A. Certainly.
12 Q. Okay. And what was the effect of that
13 particular No. 22?
14 A. We got no effect.
15 Q. What was it supposed to have been, do you know?
16 A. We were-- it was inconclusive whether we would
17 get a mono amine oxide inhibition or whether we
18 would get some sort of altered Seritonin
19 effect. I didn't know at the time that it
20 would have to be used in a higher amount.
21 Q. Just for layman's terms, would you explain,
22 what do you mean by those two things?
23 A. Ask what two things.
24 Q. You didn't know whether you got a mono
25 something.
0816
1 A. Mono amine oxide enzyme is throughout the body,
2 and it protects us from simple things, like you
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3 would die if you ate blue cheese or if you


4 drank red wine if you did not have mono amine
5 oxides working in the gut. There are two forms
6 of mono amine oxide, the first one being A
7 type, and the second one being B type. The
8 many compounds that are normally present and
9 many things that are over-the-counter drugs can
10 become deadly, i.e., NyQuil if you take a mono
11 amine oxide inhibitor. Something like caffeine
12 becomes a problem for some people with mono
13 amine oxide inhibitor. Eating meat, which has
14 large amounts of D- and L-tyrosine on board,
15 which is an amino acid, can create a
16 hypertensive crisis. That's what it does. It
17 turns off those enzymes, and it can be
18 irreversible, reversible, it can be short
19 lasting, long lasting, and it can be A or B
20 selective, and it can be either Cartesian
21 cross, or all the above.
22 Q. In your experiments for the effects of these,
23 what was it to do to your body or whoever's
24 body?
25 A. This particular one, this is not the best one
0817
1 to have started with. Mainly, I was looking
2 for, with that family, this comes under-- it's
3 a strange molecule. It comes under the beta-
4 carbolines, but within in the universe of
5 entheogens, we give this a special form. So
6 it's not the best example. Most people would
7 call this a beta-carboline. Beta-carbolines in
8 general are used for mono amine oxide
9 inhibition, although there is an argument that
10 because it blocks the decomposition of
11 Seritonin [5-hydroxy-tryptamine] in the brain,
12 that there is an actual drug effect itself.
13 Q. And what were you trying to accomplish with
14 these? I mean, do you get a buzz, or what do
15 you get out of it?
16 A. No, you do not get a buzz. To give you the
17 lineage of the names of these, they were
18 originally named telepathine and the scientists
19 then changed it, the names, to more directly
20 describe the whole family.
21 Q. And where would you get the items that you used
22 for this No. 22? Where would you get those?
23 A. Aldrich Signa. At the time they were separate
24 corporations. They are now one. Then I had
25 many other sources, Pfizer, had many other
0818
1 sources for getting chemicals.
2 Q. And you or I or anybody can just buy them?
3 A. No. I bought them through a corporation.
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4 Q. Were they restricted or controlled or anything?


5 A. No, but their general policy was not to sell to
6 the public.
7 Q. So then after No. 22 and it didn't produce the
8 desired effect, what was the effect that was
9 being sought?
10 A. Well, that one is a very unusual one, so I
11 mean--
12 Q. Go on to another one then.
13 A. Right. I mean, that one's, you know, we just
14 recently in the last few years figured that one
15 out. I'm going to find one that's more along
16 the line and then work backwards to help you
17 understand this more easily. Well, I have on
18 here all known beta-carbolines, then I'll have
19 to start giving the different forms of
20 beta-carbolines. Harmine is the standard
21 beta-carboline. Harmine, harmoline, harman,
22 these are all different forms of
23 beta-carbolines. So now No. 16 would be a
24 better one to start with. Harman.
25 Q. What's that one?
0819
1 A. Hmm?
2 Q. What is that one?
3 A. This is harman, and this would give you a
4 beta-carboline effect, meaning that it falls
5 under this huge family of mono amine oxide
6 inhibitors, and they basically turn off the
7 mono amine oxide enzymes in the stomach that
8 are both A and B. They're not selective. They
9 hit both A and B sites, which means they hit
10 the digestive tract and the brain and all the
11 rest of the organs, and what they do is they
12 turn off the deconstruction sequence of certain
13 types of tryptamines, i.e., if you eat
14 Seritonin, it does nothing for you. It does
15 not go into the brain. It is destroyed by
16 these items that protect us from red wine,
17 meat, blue cheese, and a whole series of other
18 lists. And so when you take a beta-carboline
19 in a large enough percentage per kilogram of
20 body weight, you then allow the tryptamine that
21 is inorally active to become orally active.
22 Q. And to produce what type of effect?
23 A. This will affect the brain in such a way that
24 some people call it-- there's a book out called
25 The Spirit Molecule. It produces different
0820
1 effects, but it does affect-- some people refer
2 to it as a spiritual experience.
3 Q. And can you relate it to-- the effect to
4 something such as mescaline or what-- I don't
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5 remember what you called those other types of


6 substances.
7 A. You mean sacraments or entheogens?
8 Q. Theogen (sic), what's a theogen?
9 A. Entheogen means the god within, Greek.
10 Q. So would LSD be a theogen?
11 A. An entheogen, yes.
12 Q. A which one?
13 A. Yes, it would be an entheogen.
14 Q. Antheogen (sic)?
15 A. E-N.
16 Q. And so the effect then of this one, No. 16,
17 would then be a similar type-- would you have
18 the body feel-- changes in the body?
19 A. Yes. But that isn't what I said. I said this
20 is a combinative effect. It's combined with
21 another molecule to become effective.
22 Q. Well, can you describe, for instance, what kind
23 of a spiritual effect might be felt?
24 A. With which situation?
25 Q. No. 16.
0821
1 A. I have never felt a spiritual effect from No.
2 16. I'm trying to explain to you, you have to
3 combine it with another tryptamine or another
4 molecule.
5 Q. Is there one of those other molecules that No.
6 16 could be combined with that you may have
7 experienced a spiritual effect with?
8 A. Yes, dimethyltryptamine. I will find
9 dimethyltryptamine.
10 Q. And does dimethyltryptamine also have an
11 initial for it?
12 A. DMT is the nomenclature in normal--
13 Q. And that would be number--
14 A. I'm trying to find it.
15 (THEREUPON, there was a conversation
16 in low tones between Mr. Rork and Defendant
17 Pickard.)
18 A. Well, in 49 it's mentioned.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. It's also mentioned elsewhere, so hold on a
21 second.
22 MR. HOUGH: Sorry. I didn't hear the
23 number.
24 MR. RORK: Forty-nine.
25 MR. HOUGH: Thank you.
0822
1 A. No. 3.
2 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Which is?
3 A. N,N-dimethyltryptamine. I forgot to put the
4 normal nomenclature of DMT, because it was what
5 I call a (inaudible).
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6 THE REPORTER: Because what?


7 THE WITNESS: Because I'm so used to
8 calling it dimethyltryptamine, I forgot to put
9 DMT, and I should have put it there to give
10 normal nomenclature for these things.
11 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Does that change the initial DMT
12 to anything? Does it still stay DMT?
13 A. DMT, N,N-dimethyltryptamine. That's correct.
14 That with No. 16, if the quantities of each
15 were in a sufficient manner, you would have,
16 then, what would be considered in some people's
17 books a spiritual experience.
18 Q. And have you had these combinations of these
19 items?
20 A. Numerous times.
21 Q. And starting at what age, do you think?
22 A. Twenty-one
23 Q. And you were born in '73?
24 A. No, '64.
25 Q. And have you used it continuously,
0823
1 intermittently, or how much since 21 years of
2 age?
3 A. Well, we had problems with the MAOIs and
4 couldn't get a grip on understanding why some
5 people did poorly with them and some people
6 didn't, so I stopped research for a number of
7 years until we could further understand what
8 the mono amine oxide inhibitors were doing.
9 Q. Do you know about what time period that would
10 have been?
11 A. Well, I started research pretty heavily in the
12 early '90s.
13 Q. And when you say, "research," what do you mean?
14 A. Where I was trying to figure out, as I added
15 different beta-carbolines, on myself-- I ceased
16 using other people as guinea pigs in high
17 school, I learned my lesson on that and found
18 that because of idiosyncratic situations, that
19 I was the best candidate-- there were some
20 dietary situations that made-- not this
21 combination-- there are some items that are
22 both tryptamines and MAOIs at the same time,
23 and this is what threw the wild curves to us is
24 because I could consume those items and have
25 none of the ill effects that other people had,
0824
1 because I was a quasi vegetarian, and I never
2 had consumed caffeine hardly in my life at all.
3 Q. So in this research in the '90s, would this be
4 done on a daily basis or how often?
5 A. Well, I mean, you know, every couple of weeks.
6 Q. How would you undertake a research project
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7 using these items?


8 A. I would have known sources of the materials
9 that came through different universities and
10 such, then I would measure out in very precise
11 quantities, and then I would consume them. On
12 parallel path, I was using the natural
13 products, although I knew that I had solved the
14 Ayahuasca problem when I was about 17. I did
15 not go back to figuring it out because I had
16 too many people throw up and have problems,
17 which seems to be the standard problem that
18 people have with MAOIs.
19 Q. We'll go back to that Ayahuasca problem at 17
20 in just a minute. But in the '90s when you
21 were doing this research and you indicated that
22 you would get certain quantities, how did you
23 know what to acquire to measure the quantities?
24 A. You mean how would I know what beta-carbolines?
25 Q. How would you know how to do what you were
0825
1 doing in this research?
2 A. Well, I mean, I looked at all the literature,
3 and I tried to figure things out.
4 Q. Where would one go to get this literature?
5 A. There are books you can find, and you try to
6 get every little bit of information, and you
7 work forward from there, plus I had the
8 experience many years ago to know what to work
9 from.
10 Q. In working back from the '90s to the experience
11 that you had many years ago in this research
12 you were doing, were you trying to attain the
13 spiritual effect, or just trying to make your
14 own measures of these items?
15 A. First of all, I was trying to understand why
16 there was atypical, idiosyncratic responses.
17 The next thing is I was trying to figure out
18 how what did what. There was a confusion of
19 how much the beta-carbolines affected the
20 experience versus the DMT or the tryptamine.
21 The third thing, of course, was to attain a
22 greater level of a spiritual experience.
23 Q. Let's just go to number one, the-- and again, I
24 don't know-- something about a typical
25 something or another. What was number one?
0826
1 A. You're talking about you want me to read it to
2 you?
3 Q. No. You were saying the three things you were
4 doing in the research, why somebody had, like,
5 a typical--
6 A. And idiosyncratic or atypical response?
7 Q. Yes. What is that?
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8 A. That means you have 10 people, and for no


9 reason that is apparent, one of the people
10 throws up, one of the people gets a headache,
11 or one of the people has no experience, or one
12 of the people gets totally, you know, hammered
13 by this experience, and we were trying to get a
14 grip of what caused this.
15 Q. When you say, "we," who would that be?
16 A. Generally, myself. You know, my wife at the
17 time worked with me. She was a genetic
18 researcher out of Harvard.
19 Q. And the number second reason was what did what?
20 I mean, what's that?
21 A. In other words: What part do the beta-
22 carbolines play in this versus the tryptamines?
23 Q. And would you keep, like, logs or data entries
24 to assist you?
25 A. Yeah, I mean, I kept notes, and I have a good
0827
1 memory. I had a great memory at that time, and
2 I could remember things, and I kept notes.
3 Q. And to do this project, this was just something
4 you set out on your own to do for yourself?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And prior to starting doing this heavily in the
7 '90s, had you read up on the materials on what
8 was involved?
9 A. Absolutely. I read everything before I turned
10 15 that I could find that was published.
11 Q. Because of your interest in this area?
12 A. Yes, my interest in general with physics,
13 chemistry, math, philosophy, linguistic
14 philosophy, propositional symbolic calculus.
15 They all tied in together.
16 Q. And then were you hoping to publish this
17 material? What were you attempting to do with
18 it?
19 A. I had no interest in publishing.
20 Q. When you began this research heavily in the
21 '90s on this subject that we're on, did you
22 record how the different amounts of substances
23 you prepared affected you differently or the
24 same?
25 A. Yes. Not only that, at some point in the '90s
0828
1 we started taking our body weights, we started
2 taking very close note of our diets for up to a
3 week before, we started taking our blood
4 pressure the day before, immediately before,
5 taking our blood pressure halfway through it,
6 our blood pressure at the end of the
7 experience. We took even things as accurate as
8 body temperature, and we would give-- take
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9 notes to figure out what was happening.


10 Q. And you say, "we." You're talking about you
11 and your wife at the time?
12 A. And then other people, once they got on the
13 bandwagon for realizing that we were going
14 somewhere with this, a lot of other people
15 started having an interest in this.
16 Q. Let's start at the initial stages, though, with
17 you and your wife and the recordings--
18 A. And also William Wynn. Bill Wynn was, from the
19 beginning and always, involved in the research.
20 Q. That was the friend you met in high school?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. About the time you were 15?
23 A. No, I met him before then.
24 Q. So at the time you were doing this research
25 project, was there an anticipated effect, or
0829
1 was there a lot of unknowns?
2 A. Tremendous amount of unknowns.
3 Q. And so one of your objectives was to be to help
4 study this yourself to answer some of these
5 unknowns.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And then does this recorded-- were you employed
8 at this time in the '90s anywhere?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And where would that have been?
11 A. At Gardner Industries.
12 Q. And who owns that?
13 A. My mother is 100 percent shareholder.
14 Q. And so you had to, obviously, do it after work.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would there be a length of time, was there
17 a known length of time that the doses you
18 started out using were known to have lasted, or
19 was that an unknown?
20 A. It was an unknown in different circumstances,
21 and we did have some wild cards thrown to us.
22 Q. And so let's just go-- so you did some of this,
23 you're saying, haphazard in the earlier years
24 but more heavily in the '90s, the early '90s?
25 A. No, I did a lot of work in the early years, but
0830
1 I became much more rigorous in my research
2 later on.
3 Q. When you say much more rigorous in your
4 research, you mean keeping more data?
5 A. And also reading more. I could get on a med
6 line. I could-- the world was becoming more
7 computerized. I had more access to documents.
8 Other people were working on it. Some of the
9 solutions with the diet had been solved by
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10 other people. I could then start working on


11 how to solve this and more rapidly develop
12 this.
13 Q. And, again, when you're referring to that time
14 period of computers, the early '90s when the
15 computer became more--
16 A. Right, and the Internet was opening up a little
17 bit and, mainly, you could log on directly
18 through lines to-- direct. Instead of going to
19 the Internet, you could log on to big data
20 bases directly.
21 Q. In this regard, from the time you started at an
22 early age up to the '90s, let's say, was there
23 a certain type of following for that area of
24 the sacraments that you were doing more
25 research in?
0831
1 A. Well, there's a church called the UDV. I've
2 mentioned it before, Santo Diame also, and then
3 there were people that were tribal that had
4 been doing this for an undisclosed but very
5 long period of time, but this was just one of
6 many projects that I was working on.
7 Q. I understand, and we're going to try and get to
8 some of those other ones, but with respect to
9 this one, I mean, you had to feel that you were
10 making a contribution either to yourself or
11 others in undertaking this project, weren't
12 you?
13 A. Yes. I mean, I did tell other people that I
14 considered knowledgeable what my research
15 findings were.
16 Q. And from that point in time, either from the
17 time you started or to the '90s, again, these
18 substances that you were taking weren't illegal
19 to purchase?
20 A. No, some of them were, and some of them were
21 not. Some of them were on the watch list, you
22 know.
23 Q. And how would you obtain those?
24 A. I could get the watch list ones through
25 universities, and I had luckily gotten some of
0832
1 the substances before they were scheduled,
2 i.e., alpha-ethyltryptamine. I got that before
3 it was scheduled, 100 grams from Aldrich for
4 $46 years ago. And then other items I would
5 extract from plant materials.
6 Q. Because you had the capacity and the know-how,
7 knowledge to do that?
8 A. I mean, you know, generally.
9 Q. Self-taught?
10 A. Generally.
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11 Q. And--
12 A. I may have read someone's instructions and
13 figured out if it worked.
14 Q. When you began this interest into this
15 sacramental type of activity, again, it was
16 because of things you had read or things that
17 other people had related to you?
18 A. Probably both.
19 Q. Both. And then do you have to join something
20 to belong to this area?
21 A. No. I'd go to conventions, and I would go to,
22 like, Mycophile, which was something that
23 mainly was considered the study of mycology or
24 the study of fungus, which was at that time
25 held in Orcas Island. Prior to that, there
0833
1 were meetings in Brighton Bush, and after that,
2 it then became-- there was a time of overlap
3 where it was called the Telluride Mushroom
4 Festival in Colorado.
5 Q. I want to stay to-- you started, what, about
6 1979 is about when you started?
7 A. Maybe '78, I mean--
8 Q. So from 1978 to 1990, the early '90s when you
9 were doing this research, let's just stay in
10 that time period now.
11 A. Again, the answer I gave you before covers
12 those periods.
13 Q. It does?
14 A. Yeah, Brighton Bush, Mycophile, which would be
15 numbered, the number giving which one it was in
16 sequence, and then the Telluride Mushroom
17 Festival. They basically overlapped or were
18 sequential.
19 Q. And at that point in time, from the time you
20 started working at Gardner Springs until the
21 early '90s, were you still employed at Gardner
22 Springs?
23 A. Well, there was a break of a period of time
24 when I was not employed at Gardner Springs.
25 Q. Do you know about when that time period would
0834
1 have been?
2 A. Yes, I left Gardner sometime in 1985, and I
3 returned in 1990.
4 Q. And so from 1985 to 1990, would you have had
5 more time and opportunity to do research?
6 A. Yes, a lot more.
7 Q. And would that have been a time period that you
8 would have probably traveled more extensively?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how would you find out about these places
11 and where to go?
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12 A. From, you know, I would talk to other people.


13 It's a small community.
14 Q. And is there a name for this small--
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was it still the UDV?
17 A. No, no. I was never a member of UDV. I was
18 never a member, nor do I prescribe to their
19 doctrine.
20 Q. What was the small community, then, that you
21 were involved with?
22 A. The entheogenic community at that time was very
23 small. Worldwide, it was quite a small number
24 of people.
25 Q. How did the people know each other or have
0835
1 contact?
2 A. You would go to one conference, and you would
3 probably meet 75 percent of the people that
4 were the key players in that.
5 Q. How would you find out about a conference?
6 A. You know, I don't know. I'd see it in a
7 magazine, or a friend would tell me something,
8 and I'd go to it.
9 Q. And would you travel by yourself or take other
10 people?
11 A. Usually I traveled by myself.
12 Q. Was there occasion that Mr. Wynn may have
13 traveled with you?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. So as you then-- so would you--
16 A. In that period of time.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. If you go beyond that, yes.
19 Q. I'm going to get beyond that. I'm just trying
20 to compartmentalize it.
21 A. Yeah, try and keep it to where I understand,
22 tight questions.
23 Q. So in that period of time from 15 to the '90s,
24 '78 or so to the '90s, in the '85 to '90 when
25 you had more research time, did you acquire--
0836
1 what type of facilities or equipment was needed
2 to do these measurements and these making of
3 these items?
4 A. Some precision scales. Also just regular
5 flasks, several separation funnels, and also
6 some petrie dishes, because I was also growing
7 mycelium, pressure cookers to sterilize,
8 blenders. I did a liquid culture technique
9 which required a little more complicated
10 equipment. I had autostirrer, heating plates,
11 things like that.
12 Q. How would one acquire those, from, like, a
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13 chemistry lab?
14 A. Yeah, I'd order from Fisher Scientific, or I'd
15 order from Aldrich, which had a number of items
16 at that time. Sigma had their own section for
17 bringing the stuff in. They were usually
18 pretty easy to order from. You could get it--
19 there's a place called Refinery Supply in
20 Tulsa, which has since gone bankrupt, and you
21 could get any of these items through them.
22 Q. And are there stores, you know, they put out
23 magazines, and you can buy, like, alarm radios.
24 Did these stores put out magazines for what you
25 could buy?
0837
1 A. Large catalogs.
2 Q. So-- I'm try to think of a store-- so the large
3 catalog, would it have pictures or just
4 numbers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you go to any extra classes or seminars
7 in how to do this?
8 A. We would take classes at the different
9 conferences.
10 Q. And what would-- for instance, like, early on
11 in this period, what would those classes
12 consist of and how would it be taught?
13 A. You'd learn laminar flow technology, which was
14 where you have air flowing across you that goes
15 through a hepa filter so you can have a sterile
16 air situation so you can do spore and then
17 mycelium transfer without contamination on agar
18 agar, agar agar, however you want to
19 pronunciate. This is a standard thing done in
20 labs. I would learn different ways of doing
21 trace mineral and vitamin enhancement of the
22 medias to grow different mycelium networks and
23 different spores.
24 Q. And most of these would be like all
25 conferences, a couple days to a week?
0838
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And were you living in a house or apartment
3 during that period of time?
4 A. Both.
5 Q. Did you dedicate, like, some men have a work
6 room they use for their tools?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. You could just do it anywhere?
9 A. No. I did have a place that was an apartment
10 that I used mainly for doing mycelium work.
11 Q. People that do their own photography have to
12 have a darkroom.
13 A. Yeah, but this was an entire apartment that was
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14 dedicated to just doing mycelium work.


15 Q. What's mycelium work?
16 A. That's taking fungus and learning how it grows
17 and learning to take it to a fruiting body and
18 then back to a spore.
19 Q. And does that need to be like a darkroom for
20 developing films?
21 A. There are some phases that it helps to have it
22 dark.
23 Q. Does it require special lighting or special--
24 A. There's special lighting, like, Daylight 65,
25 Vitalite. You need a certain wavelength in
0839
1 Calvin degrees, but for a certain amount of
2 seconds. You also need special humidity and
3 special temperatures so that you can grow
4 mycelium, so that you can get to transfer and
5 keep the competitors and other fungus and
6 bacteria down. You need a relatively clean air
7 environment so you don't get fruit flies and
8 such.
9 Q. And when you had this apartment that was
10 dedicated totally to this experiment, was that
11 something you would keep other people from
12 having access to, as they could contaminate it?
13 A. It wasn't something like-- you know, I mean,
14 we'd say, "Don't make a mess in there," you
15 know. "Please don't open up this area, because
16 you'll let a bunch of contaminates in, and
17 we'll are have to reclean it out." It was
18 pretty hard-- at that time it was harder for me
19 to keep things sterile. I used something
20 called Envirobags when I went to a higher
21 sterility system where I'd use a positive
22 pressure system of nitrogen or helium, and then
23 I would do my work with the gloves that went
24 through, and I'd work from two sides to do the
25 work.
0840
1 Q. For lack of a better thing, some of those
2 things you see where hospitals are working on
3 an infant, premature, where they stick their
4 hands in and do stuff?
5 A. These were a little more advanced. These
6 Envirocare things, I think, are still sold by
7 Aldrich. They're disposable blow-up plastic
8 things with hands that come through on both
9 sides, and you can make attachments and make it
10 to where you can put more equipment in and
11 such.
12 Q. And, again, those were things or equipment that
13 you got to know about by either seminars that
14 you went to or word of mouth.
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15 A. No. I found it in the Aldrich catalog and


16 said, "This is a lot better solution than
17 anything I have seen," and I just did it
18 myself.
19 Q. And as we get back to this research in the '90s
20 on the project that you were talking about with
21 No. 3 and No. 49 and No. 16, you would say,
22 then, your use before this research would have
23 been sporadic or--
24 A. Ask the question again.
25 Q. I was going to-- I think you've indicated you
0841
1 would make 16, 49, and 3 to be used for this
2 research in the '90s, where you were doing body
3 temperatures and blood pressure and all those
4 items for the sacramental effect.
5 A. Sixteen and 3.
6 Q. Sixteen and 3?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So your use from '78 until you began more heavy
9 research in the early '90s, would that have
10 been sporadic use?
11 A. No. There were some times where I did weekly
12 research in the early times and continual.
13 Q. And when you were doing this research, would
14 you keep, like, a spiral notebook and put down
15 data?
16 A. Sometimes, yes.
17 Q. And, like, if I hadn't done any of this, and I
18 wanted to do it today, is there reading
19 material, or did you have knowledge of how much
20 I should do for, like, my first time?
21 A. There was not much available in the early
22 years, but later on, you can go and find books
23 that tell you exactly what to do based upon the
24 research that a group of us did to get over
25 these humps.
0842
1 Q. And what were you doing at that time, as it
2 relates to your own use, in determining the
3 quantities to use?
4 A. We were titrating up until we found how much
5 was necessary of different components.
6 Q. Do you recall your first experience with this
7 product or--
8 A. Well, I have-- my introduction was strange to
9 it, because I went through it-- we'll go to
10 another item-- I started off with a relatively
11 complicated molecule, which in the end turned
12 out to be a fairly substantial breakthrough for
13 me. Didn't know it. I started off with
14 something called 5-fluoro-alpha-
15 methyltryptamine and 6-fluoro-alpha-
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16 methyltryptamine, which is one of these odd


17 molecules that is both a tryptamine and an MAOI
18 and orally active, so it's quite strange, and
19 so I had solved some of the problems that
20 normally would have existed.
21 Q. Which were?
22 A. First of all, I'm using one item, and second of
23 all, I didn't have to figure out multiple items
24 and their weights to figure out per kilogram.
25 Q. And what effect would you then obtain in the
0843
1 sacrament use?
2 A. This-- at this point, I really didn't
3 understand that I was using a sacrament fully,
4 because I only thought sacraments would have
5 been naturally occurring, so I was more in the
6 scientific mood, and the effect was a
7 relatively unusual effect. Time dilation would
8 occur.
9 Q. What is that?
10 A. I mean, we're getting into a very-- we have a
11 very weak language even yet to describe these
12 experiences as we change brain chemistry. I
13 mean, I will try to do my best. So you will
14 reference numbers 36 and 37 are some of the
15 earlier MAOI/tryptamines that I used.
16 Q. And as you used those, what type of effect
17 would be produced, and can you compare it to
18 something that I might know?
19 A. That you might know. What do you know?
20 Q. I don't know if I'd better answer that.
21 MR. HOUGH: Judge, I think we need to
22 hang around to hear that.
23 THE WITNESS: You may need to get
24 immunized, but I'd love to hear the answer.
25 MR. RORK: Judge, did you want to
0844
1 take an afternoon break now?
2 THE COURT: That's agreeable. Ladies
3 and gentlemen, let's take a 15-minute break,
4 then we'll come back.
5 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Stand in
6 recess for 15 minutes.
7 (THEREUPON, a recess was had.)
8 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Rork, you
9 may proceed.
10 MR. RORK: Thank you, Your Honor.
11 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Mr. Skinner, right before the
12 break we were going into trying to describe,
13 like, the spiritual experience with respect to
14 the items that you had last talked about. I
15 believe it was No. 36 and 37.
16 A. Yes, 5-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine and
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17 6-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you describe for us, was there a different
21 quantity you used earlier on than you did when
22 you were doing the research in the early '90s?
23 A. No. That was a standard amount that I usually
24 use, about 25 milligrams, on myself.
25 Q. And would you--
0845
1 A. Of 5-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine. The
2 6-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine has a 15-hour
3 duration and is a little strange, so I did not
4 research much with it because of the duration.
5 As you switch the spot in the given molecular
6 structure, you will increase or decrease
7 duration or potency.
8 Q. Was there a certain duration for the 5 one?
9 A. Yeah, I would say 12 hours, but it would depend
10 on diet and given person.
11 Q. Before you did this, did you read up on what
12 the effects would be or anything?
13 A. Well, I mean, you know, again, the language
14 doesn't even remotely-- especially at that
15 time, you know, they had no-- we still lack
16 logos or a language or a syntax to adequately
17 describe these--
18 Q. How was the effect of the 5 one related to you,
19 if any, before you first tried it?
20 A. Well, hardly anyone had tried it that wrote
21 about it, so all I knew that it was-- it didn't
22 kill, if your diet was all right, and there
23 wasn't much written. I mean, there was one or
24 two lines written about it when I found it.
25 Q. When you first did it, then, was that about the
0846
1 25 milligram level?
2 A. Yes. I'm pretty for sure of that.
3 Q. Do you have to buy these items, or do you have
4 to make that item?
5 A. This item you buy from, I believe, only Sigma
6 at that time carried 5-fluro-alpha-
7 methyltryptamine and 6-fluro-alpha-
8 methyltryptamine.
9 Q. And how did the 5 come into-- like, a glass
10 container?
11 A. Yes, and it said it has to be kept at below
12 zero degrees.
13 Q. And did it come, like, in a big jar or a
14 little--
15 A. No, a small brown container, a brown glass
16 container. It's light sensitive. It's lumen
17 shells can be affected, so it is sensitive to
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18 light.
19 Q. Did you, in purchasing this, have to designate
20 a specific purpose for why you wanted it, or
21 just say give me some 5-what-you-may-call-it?
22 A. I think I said it was the Gardner Industries
23 Mold Inhibitor Division that was buying this.
24 Q. The Gardener Industries Spring Mold Inhibitor
25 Division?
0847
1 A. Yes. We were trying to treat mold that was
2 infesting the shingles of houses, and wood, and
3 benches, and such, so--
4 Q. And was that an actual division, or just what
5 you represented it to them?
6 A. I just represented it. We didn't do any mold
7 inhibitions.
8 Q. And then when the purchase would be made, would
9 you, like, call them up for it or give them a
10 purchase order?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Both?
13 A. Yes. I had account representatives and such.
14 I still have the documentation, if I need to
15 prove it.
16 Q. And did you have to purchase a certain
17 quantity, or did it--
18 A. Yeah, there was definitely-- it would be, like,
19 25 milligrams would be this price, and Sigma
20 has a very steep curve to where the price drops
21 considerably as you buy a larger amount.
22 Q. Like for eggs, most of the time you've got to
23 buy a dozen?
24 A. Yeah, but in this case the price would go way
25 down if you went from 25 milligrams to half a
0848
1 gram.
2 Q. So, naturally, if you were going to continue
3 the research or use of it, you'd want to buy a
4 larger quantity?
5 A. You'd first buy a small quantity to see if you
6 were at all interested, and then you would buy
7 a larger quantity.
8 Q. And in this regard, when you first did this,
9 can you try and describe for me what effect it
10 had physically on you or spiritually?
11 A. Well, I would prefer to describe other things,
12 because this one is a complicated one. I mean,
13 you're, like, going up there to one of those
14 complicated molecules. It just happened to be
15 I hit it early. I'm not trying to be
16 difficult. I would like to start off on the
17 basis of building with simplicity on a--
18 Q. I understand, but just while we're on this one,
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19 so I don't have to come back to it, can you


20 give a little description of it?
21 A. It seemed to have a telepathic effect to it.
22 Q. And, like, you could hear others' thoughts?
23 A. No. It was like you were reading the same
24 page, if two of you were doing it, or you were
25 watching the same movie. There's different
0849
1 forms of telepathy, whatever that means,
2 telepathy, but if you're looking at a page, and
3 it's like you're reading the same book or
4 you're watching the same movie.
5 Q. So it would be like you were actually in this
6 position, but maybe you were next to yourself?
7 A. No. I'm talking about if two of you were doing
8 it, you would see the same movie, only this
9 movie would be not like a regular movie, but
10 some sort of more complicated archetypical
11 movie.
12 Q. Basically, the thought processes that would be
13 utilized by one person would also be projected
14 into the thoughts of the other person?
15 A. No. Again, it's like you're going to a movie,
16 and you're both watching the same movie, but
17 you're not watching a real movie, you're
18 experiencing the same experience. I'm trying
19 to bring it down to a language, a logos, that
20 can be understood.
21 Q. And when you first did this, you did this to
22 see what the effect was, and later you
23 progressed into the research of it. Correct?
24 A. Well, I mean, all of it was research, you know.
25 Q. And then you knew it would be like, for this
0850
1 one, a 12-hour duration?
2 A. We knew there were some guidelines, but if you
3 had certain things on board, like when we
4 didn't know, L-tyrocine in the form of meat or
5 something digesting through your digestive
6 tract, the duration could be shortened or
7 lengthened, and the diet turned out to be a
8 complicated issue of this.
9 Q. But to prepare to do this, did you go to a
10 certain location or a certain environment?
11 A. I had a general rule that I fasted, which gave
12 me an advantage of most people, and I never
13 went into parties and did anything like this.
14 I do not use these things recreationally. I
15 have never recreationally used anything. I do
16 not like going into public. I do not like
17 going into-- the last place I can imagine doing
18 something like this would be at a rave or a
19 discotheque. I don't go to bars because I
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20 can't handle cigarette smoke, but I could not


21 imagine going to a bar, or being on a bus, or
22 being in Las Vegas and doing this.
23 Q. I meant when you were doing this research, did
24 you go, like, to a room in a house and stay
25 there for this time period?
0851
1 A. Sometimes, or I would go out in nature, which
2 seemed to be a little more conducive, and
3 sometimes I would go into a pitch black room.
4 It depends what kind of research I was doing.
5 Q. And in that regard, you would try to see what
6 the external and internal effect would also
7 have on these items?
8 A. Yes. I believe you would refer to that as set
9 and setting.
10 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't--
11 A. Set and setting.
12 Q. Set and setting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So was there a certain procedure established
15 that when you first experimented with this item
16 that you tried the inside of a location versus
17 an outside location first?
18 A. Yeah. I mean, I became more refined with what
19 given class of molecular structure that I was
20 using and the set and setting and the
21 procedures and records that I would use.
22 Q. And would you, when you first started using
23 this and as you were doing your research,
24 attempt to write down the effects while it was
25 going on, or wait until after?
0852
1 A. Some of these items are too strong to write
2 things down.
3 Q. What do you mean?
4 A. The writing process isn't necessarily a good
5 way to-- your writing would not be well done,
6 nor do you really want to do that. These are
7 very deep experiences within the system.
8 Q. And when you say writing not well done, you
9 mean you couldn't read your writing?
10 A. No, you could read it if you wanted to, but the
11 last thing you wanted to do is waste your time
12 writing. You wanted to try to watch as much of
13 this almost four dimensional hologram movie as
14 possible.
15 Q. And when you're saying that, are you sitting
16 there with another person, and you are kind of
17 like looking at each other?
18 A. Not necessarily. Some of the research was done
19 by myself, some of it was done with a
20 facilitator, and some of it was done with one,
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21 two, or three of us doing the same general


22 combinations or specific molecule.
23 Q. Let's go to the research by yourself in regard
24 to this item. This is a protocol where you
25 start off--
0853
1 A. Protocol?
2 Q. -- protocol where you start off in using this
3 either individually, or is there--
4 A. Well, obviously, if you're getting an unknown
5 molecule or a newly designed molecule or
6 something, you never take it by yourself.
7 That's a big no-no. And the other thing is you
8 titrate up very slowly, or you'll win the
9 Darwin award pretty fast.
10 Q. And so then when you would do this first
11 experiment in this time period we're doing,
12 from '78 to '90, you would have somebody with
13 you the first time?
14 A. Yeah, usually for most of my research, within
15 the research phase, I would have at least one
16 other person, or more than one other person
17 with me.
18 Q. And that person would be told by you what it
19 was you were going to be doing?
20 A. And if I had to go to the emergency room they
21 would be told exactly what I had taken.
22 MR. HOUGH: Judge, we'll object at
23 this point. It's repetitive, it's redundant.
24 We're talking about a event that's remote in
25 time, and it's irrelevant.
0854
1 MR. RORK: Judge, again, I'm building
2 into the research, the use, and the pattern
3 that has to go into the questioning. I don't
4 think it's redundant, irrelevant, and
5 immaterial under the usage. I don't intend to
6 spend five days on it, but I do intend to get
7 the pattern and the history down, yes.
8 THE COURT: Well, go ahead, but
9 let's--
10 MR. RORK: I understand.
11 THE COURT: -- try to move it along.
12 MR. RORK: I understand, Your Honor.
13 THE WITNESS: Also, you had asked
14 about time duration of these. Every one of
15 them has a different time duration. If we'll
16 go to 14--
17 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Let's stick to where I was
18 questioning, though. You were describing
19 whether or not the first time you did this you
20 would have another person with you.
21 A. Usually, yes.
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22 Q. Yes. And then that person would be told this


23 may last for up to 18 hours?
24 A. No, they would be told the best knowledge we
25 had at that time. It could be five minutes,
0855
1 two minutes, an hour, three hours, 18 hours--
2 18 hours is an unusual circumstance.
3 Q. And would you ask this other person, then, to
4 write down and make observations as to what
5 visible effects you displayed while you--
6 A. Sometimes, yes.
7 Q. And in your particular circumstance in this
8 research, were you doing this in order to
9 become well known in this area--
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- or what was--
12 A. I do not like to be known, and I stay behind
13 the scenes in most of the situations. For me
14 to be sitting here before you is a very rare
15 thing. I don't talk at conferences. I stay
16 very behind the scenes.
17 Q. So when you were in this room with one other
18 individual, it would usually be William Wynn?
19 A. Not necessarily. It could be any number of
20 people.
21 Q. Are there any number of people that you were
22 doing this with from this time period of the
23 '78 to the '90s that you still associate with?
24 A. Gerard Terrence Hennegan (spelled
25 phonetically).
0856
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Richard Carpenter.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I'll put some names in there that I don't
5 associate with regularly because they've moved
6 to different parts of the country. Andy Jones.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. Eric Markert (spelled phonetically).
9 Q. How do you spell that last?
10 A. Don't know how to spell--
11 Q. Is it like the Marquardt--
12 A. No, no, Markert.
13 Q. Markert.
14 A. He's a doctor now. George Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S.
15 Q. And William Wynn?
16 A. William Wynn, of course. There were a whole
17 list of other volunteers, but I got pretty
18 restrictive on who I wanted to do research
19 with.
20 Q. And so describe for me--
21 A. This is in the early years.
22 Q. In the early years, yes. And describe for me,
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23 then, the effects when you first took this


24 substance that you talked about. Besides the
25 telepathic event, was there any visual events
0857
1 that would also accompany that?
2 A. Well, some people get archetypical or they get
3 geometric designs that are across the board
4 with entheogens that work on the Seritonin
5 pathways. It's not unusual to have geometric
6 events, color events. Synesthesia often
7 occurs. That is when you hear light and see
8 sounds.
9 Q. And can we go to the geometric experience?
10 What is that? Can you describe that?
11 A. You'll get geometric shapes, like rotating
12 pyramids, rotating cubes, different rotation of
13 geometric figures.
14 Q. That just appear in your mind's eye, or appear
15 actually in front of you?
16 A. Both. You get different effects with eyes
17 closed and eyes open.
18 Q. What about the next thing that you indicated
19 after geometric designs?
20 A. I'm sorry.
21 Q. I can't read my handwriting, something to do
22 with system--
23 A. You're talking about synesthesia?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. This is where your senses cross, and you see
0858
1 sound and hear light.
2 Q. And--
3 A. Taste music, you know, feel light beams, these
4 kind of things.
5 Q. And while you're feeling those, do you realize
6 that you're doing so?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Absolutely. So it's not like you do this, and
9 then four hours later, you say, "Where was I?"
10 A. No. Amnesia amongst the people that can handle
11 this, amnesia is-- amnesia is very common
12 amongst the broad spectrum of the bell curve,
13 but the researchers in this-- researchers, one
14 of the tests is: How clear are you through the
15 whole experience?
16 Q. And what you found with respect to this
17 substance that we're talking to, 36 and 37, did
18 the use, then, as you began have to increase to
19 attain the same effect?
20 A. No, not at all. In fact, ramp-up occurs with
21 some entheogens.
22 Q. What is wrap-up (sic)?
23 A. That means that the amount decreases to get the
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24 same effect. It's an unusual aspect in drugs


25 and chemical usage.
0859
1 Q. And did you initially write down after each use
2 what effects of these patterns you've described
3 was experienced by you?
4 A. Sometimes.
5 Q. And then would you keep that for later
6 reference?
7 A. Sometimes.
8 Q. And did you prepare, like, articles to write
9 about this?
10 A. No, I had no interest in publishing, had no
11 interest other than in sharing the information
12 with the other people that were doing the
13 research. I would give them the data.
14 Q. Then did you also, when you had two people
15 doing this, and before we get to more than two,
16 same type of process, would each of you, if
17 there was two of you consuming or doing this at
18 the same time, would you compare effects to
19 each other?
20 A. Absolutely, and we would compare-- do time
21 checks to see if we were progressing along the
22 same way or if we were having an exclusive
23 effect, a nonlinear effective time, some effect
24 that was out of sequence, a temporal effect
25 with each person's experience time line.
0860
1 Q. Did you also early on keep track of the blood
2 pressure and body temperature?
3 A. No.
4 Q. It was more or less the effects of what was
5 going on--
6 A. Right.
7 Q. -- as far as what you were doing during that
8 occasion?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And when you would use more than two people in
11 that purpose, would they again, all of you talk
12 and explain to each other what was going on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the purpose was to share with each other
15 what the effects were, or to compare with each
16 other?
17 A. Both.
18 Q. Both. And what purpose would that help with
19 your research?
20 A. To see what seems to be the norm of what this
21 does and what is not the norm, and to see if
22 these people, this group of people within this
23 group threw up or had an experience that wasn't
24 pleasant, and then we would look at the
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25 background information to see if there was a


0861
1 dietary, a psychological situation. You would
2 rapidly weed out the people that
3 psychologically couldn't handle this.
4 Q. Now, you indicated that was a very complex
5 example of the items, and I believe that was 36
6 and 37.
7 A. 5-fluoro-alpha-methyltryptamine and 6-fluoro-
8 alpha-methyltryptamine, yes, very, very
9 complicated molecular structure, which they're
10 still trying to figure out. One reason it
11 stays in the system so long is because the mono
12 amine oxide inhibitor is counteracted because
13 the fluoro group is unnatural. It keeps
14 recycling, and it takes a long time for the
15 brain's MAOI(B)s to get rid of it.
16 Q. Is that something you determined from the
17 research or the readings?
18 A. Research and readings. I had to figure out
19 why.
20 Q. When you-- initially, we discussed some of the
21 items you had mentioned, 16 and 3, and if you
22 would go to No. 16 on your list, you have
23 listed there various items. Is that correct?
24 A. Well, these are different names and structures
25 for the same item.
0862
1 Q. What do you mean?
2 A. Basically, this is a beta-carboline, and I'm
3 just giving different nomenclatures for it.
4 Q. And a nomenclature being?
5 A. The way that we communicate in the chemical
6 world about how the structures are, and there
7 are so many different standards that you can
8 have, even for caffeine, 15 different items.
9 And I give an example of caffeine having many
10 different forms, and you can find it in this,
11 how the nomenclature is on caffeine chemically.
12 Q. Would any of those items listed-- I guess if
13 there's a comma after it, that means you're
14 going on to a different name.
15 A. Actually, semicolon.
16 Q. So the first one after Harman, comma, six,
17 hyphen, all of that's one thing?
18 A. Right, and if it's got a semicolon, that's a
19 truncation point, and then we go on to each
20 truncating unit.
21 Q. Would any of those in No. 16 have an initial
22 like that DMT initial that you had before?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And when you talked about No. 3, the "DMT" that
25 you wrote on the exhibit, that would be the
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0863
1 initial corresponding to that item?
2 A. That would be the normal street lingo for
3 dimethyltryptamine.
4 Q. Why don't you go ahead to your next example
5 that would help explain this research during
6 this time period?
7 A. This is also going to be a tough example, but
8 the reason I'm going to take it is because it's
9 going to be something I did early on, and this
10 is 14. You can put it up on the screen if you
11 want. This is 5-methoxy-N,N-
12 dimethyltryptamine. Believe it or not, this is
13 the active component within the Sonoran Desert
14 toad, which people talk about licking, which is
15 not correct. If you lick it, you're in
16 trouble. You squeeze the gland onto a
17 microscope slide or some sort of slide, then
18 you let it crystallize, and you then scrape it
19 off. There are some other factions in there
20 and within that. This 5-methoxy-N,N-
21 dimethyltryptamine, this is another unscheduled
22 item, but under the Drug Analog Act, it would
23 be illegal, but I was able to obtain this from
24 Sigma Aldrich.
25 Q. And I was going to get to that. We're talking
0864
1 about the time period from 1978 to 1990?
2 A. Right, even up until 1995 I was able to obtain
3 that from Sigma Aldrich.
4 Q. And it wasn't illegal to purchase.
5 A. To this day it has not been scheduled by the
6 DEA, but Sigma Aldrich really scrutinizes a
7 purchase order that comes in with this on it.
8 Q. Is this something that you buy, and it's
9 already put together, or do you have to make
10 it?
11 A. No, it comes already as 5-methoxy-N,N-
12 dimethyltryptamine. There are many other
13 natural source for this.
14 Q. Such as?
15 A. Phalaris arundinacea can have both N,N-
16 dimethyltryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-
17 dimethyltryptamine. Phalaris arundinacea is
18 commonly known in bird seed or bird feed as
19 reed canary grass. Phalaris aquatica, which is
20 closely related to Phalaris arundinacea, grows
21 in ditches. There's 400 and something
22 varieties of Phalaris arundinacea, 190
23 something varieties of Phalaris aquatica.
24 Grows all over Kansas and the United States.
25 It's everywhere. If they're stressed and you
0865
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1 pick them at a certain time, you can


2 fractionate out 5-methoxy-N,N-
3 dimethyltryptamine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine
4 from them. There are many other sources
5 besides that. Antheropod, which grows
6 throughout Jamaica and South America in certain
7 regions, and you can fractionate, and there's
8 many, many, many more sources for these.
9 Q. During this time period that we're discussing,
10 did you have occasion to extract this yourself
11 from that?
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. How did you do that?
14 A. Well, the simplest way was you got a wheat
15 grass juicer, and you sprinkled the little
16 seeds-- and I'd get the seeds from the
17 Washington Conservatory, soil conservatory, or
18 seed bank. They have them in little freezers,
19 and you get 600 little packages, and you have
20 every different variation, and you sprinkle
21 them out, and you grow them in their baby shoot
22 form, and if you have the right nutrients in
23 there, you can just shave them off, put them
24 through a wheat grass juicer, take a
25 tablespoon-- kind of like something that looks
0866
1 like wheat grass, tastes about as nasty as
2 wheat grass-- and take an MAOI with it and take
3 it orally and hold on for all you're worth.
4 Q. And was part of that research of yours also to
5 compare the effects of something that you would
6 buy in this form?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. No. 14?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 Q. Versus something that you would compound
11 yourself?
12 A. No, something that I would extract myself.
13 Q. Extract.
14 A. Compound is another word.
15 Q. And as far as the effect, describe for me
16 first, if you would, what effects you would
17 have experienced on No. 14 in its fashion from
18 Sigma.
19 A. Okay. I have-- this is a funny story,
20 actually, kind of funny. I knew that it was
21 very active at about four milligram, which is
22 very small, much more active than
23 dimethyltryptamine or most of the tryptamines.
24 So I have a problem smoking anything, so what I
25 did was I vaporized it personally and got
0867
1 nothing but a slight euphoria effect.
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2 Q. What do you mean by that?


3 A. Just it was just kind of a like drinking a
4 couple of-- I don't drink caffeine very often,
5 so if I drink a slug of espresso, it would be
6 like that, only short lasting. So-- but, you
7 know, not very-- they're not real similar, but
8 I need to get down to. The other people who
9 could smoke stuff, they were just hitting the
10 floor, and tears were coming out of their eyes,
11 and I said, "I don't understand this." So I
12 poured a large amount into something like
13 rosemary and smoked it, because I thought I
14 could handle rosemary, and I got an
15 overwhelming effect. I've only read one other
16 report that was almost identical to the
17 experience I had, only that was from Alexander
18 T. Shulgin, and it was-- we immediately
19 nicknamed this the death drug, because it
20 synthesized dying. You went through a death
21 experience, which it's a very short acting
22 thing, we're talking three to six minutes,
23 which is good, because it seems like an
24 eternity while you're hanging out there and
25 it's an unpleasant experience if you're not
0868
1 ready for it, and it's very powerful, and it's
2 not visual in the ordinary sense of visual.
3 It's nothing like the other tyrptamines that I
4 experienced but, again, had a very short
5 duration.
6 Q. And when you did that for the purpose of your
7 research, did you do it on more than one
8 occasion in this time period?
9 A. Well, after that first time, it took me a lot
10 of guts to ever go back to that compound and
11 mess with that molecule, but I eventually
12 learned to work with it.
13 Q. And how did you do that?
14 A. Well, I learned to decrease the dose, and I
15 learned how to take it orally with an MAOI,
16 which is quite dangerous if you don't know what
17 you're doing, because you can get yourself into
18 a situation call Seritonin syndrome.
19 Q. What's that?
20 A. It's a complicated series of events. I could
21 describe it. You go into hind leg motor
22 response, which is where you're kicking your
23 legs in a circle laying on the ground. I've
24 never gone into this. I have not had this form
25 of Seritonin syndrome. I've only seen it a few
0869
1 times in my life. And the problem is that
2 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine is so many
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3 more orders of magnitude more potent than


4 dimethyltryptamine, that when an MAOI is on
5 board, you have a problem. That's why I'm
6 saying when you extract it from wheat grass,
7 you better hold on for all you're worth because
8 it could be problematic. That's why it's
9 better to fractionate it out and then have
10 something that you know you're working with, so
11 you can use scales and such to know what you're
12 dealing with.
13 Q. And you have extracted it from wheat grass?
14 A. Yes, uh-huh.
15 Q. And then you've used it after you've extracted
16 it?
17 A. Yes, uh-huh.
18 Q. And how was that effect different?
19 A. This one happens to be so strong that I
20 couldn't tell any difference, although I do not
21 have a problem with this compound. It does
22 not-- it doesn't do anything like what it did
23 to me originally, but I have not had the guts
24 to smoke 32 milligrams of it again. The
25 highest dose that I have heard of that's ever
0870
1 been reported before that was, I think, 20 or
2 25.
3 Q. And again, you were describing this death
4 experience. Was it, like, a mental thought to
5 you or--
6 A. You really thought your body was shutting down,
7 but it just happened to be ego dissolution
8 where your ego is dying, and what you call "I"
9 is dying, and when that happens, it's a very
10 unusual effect.
11 Q. And with respect to--
12 A. The first time it happens, you really think
13 you're dying. I mean, I figured, "Here I'm out
14 on some sort of ridiculous thing that tastes
15 like plastic, and I'm going to leave the
16 planet." I was a little embarrassed to be
17 sitting there in that position.
18 Q. And again, you would write these notes down to
19 help you?
20 A. On this one I definitely wrote notes down on
21 this one.
22 Q. And as far as the use and the measurement, you
23 would compare this information when some of the
24 theogens (sic) would meet, like, "Hey, don't do
25 32 grams like I did"?
0871
1 A. Thirty-two milligrams.
2 Q. Thirty-two milligrams?
3 A. You would be dead at 32 grams. Well, yeah, I
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4 mean, we talked about it. I mean, I've only


5 read one other account of someone that was up
6 above 20 milligrams. Their words and
7 statements were almost identical to mine.
8 Q. And in sharing this information with other
9 theogens, that's what you'd do is to provide
10 this type of information so people can know
11 what's going on?
12 A. Right, and we also give safety recommendations.
13 We're very interested in how to stay safe, and
14 we're very cautionary.
15 Q. And you would also share the experience that
16 you have just described with whoever the
17 individual may have been observing you at the
18 time you were using No. 14?
19 A. Correct, and it was really interesting, because
20 often their observations would be considerably
21 different than my observations.
22 Q. And you would also do that research and the
23 observations with respect to the natural No. 14
24 that you extracted from the grass and the seeds
25 and stuff?
0872
1 A. Yes, and another thing is that we-- we were
2 very interested in seeing what the natural
3 extractions-- and we knew that once the
4 extraction was done, so sometimes we had to
5 keep it in its whole form because we understand
6 that heat, oxidization, and just the extraction
7 process itself could have caused a molecular
8 change.
9 Q. When you talk about the heat and the
10 oxidization, is that in the preparation of the
11 item in a flask or in a tube or however it's
12 prepared?
13 A. Or in a skillet, pan, or whatever you happen to
14 be using at the time.
15 Q. So you didn't necessarily have to have a
16 certain type of lab equipment like flasks and
17 the like?
18 A. No, you didn't.
19 Q. But on occasion, some of these preparations,
20 you would use that type of equipment?
21 A. I've used flasks to do extractions.
22 Q. After No. 14-- I'm just going to put a circle
23 on that one-- which other one would you next
24 want us to go to?
25 A. Well, during that period, I did quite a bit of
0873
1 research with-- let me find the number-- 80,
2 page 10.
3 Q. I'm sorry, page 10?
4 A. Yes, and it would be 80.
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5 Q. Eighty, and that one is kind of easy, I mean, I


6 say easy--
7 A. Wonderful for you to say it's easy.
8 Q. To spell.
9 A. Have you done it?
10 Q. Easy to spell. I'll just say it. It's peyote.
11 A. Peyote. Peyote is the normal pronunciation.
12 Q. Peyote?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Kind of like tomato or tomato?
15 A. Correct. I'll give you whatever you want to
16 say.
17 Q. Let's go to No. 80, the peyote.
18 A. The first thing is I had to go get it. That
19 was quite an ordeal, because I had to connect
20 up with a member of the Native American Church,
21 and he was out of Pawnee, Oklahoma.
22 Q. And this would be the period of time you lived
23 in Tulsa, Oklahoma?
24 A. Correct. I think about 1986, maybe 1985. And
25 I went down to-- he said he had papers, and I
0874
1 went down, and I bought 10,000 buttons,
2 effectively, in Laredo on the other side of the
3 border because, actually, peyote has two
4 growing regions in the world only. Most people
5 don't realize that. I got 10,000 buttons of
6 fresh peyote, and I brought them back, and it
7 turns out he didn't have his paperwork, and we
8 were pulled over in a white van with 10 gunny
9 sacks of peyote and Indian-Mexican looking
10 people, I told them to get out of the driver's
11 seat, and I drove it, and we were the only
12 vehicle that wasn't searched, by some miracle,
13 and so I then brought it up, and I gave 5,000
14 buttons to the Native American Church, and then
15 I started research with peyote.
16 Q. And would you start this research out like your
17 other ways, individually, or with one other
18 person first?
19 A. Yeah. Since we had so much information on
20 peyote, we really felt safe as long as our diet
21 was correct and, therefore, we didn't feel that
22 we were in as dangerous a zone as unknown
23 compound with maybe one sentence out there.
24 There's books and books and books, and we felt
25 the safety margins were very high on peyote.
0875
1 Q. In this time period when you first started
2 research as you've describe with this peyote,
3 you had known and experienced the effects of
4 other items that we'll go through, and you have
5 gone through?
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6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And again, the purpose and use of this
8 particular one would be to, one, see by itself
9 what it's effects are, and then also compare it
10 to effects you have had with other items since
11 then?
12 A. Yes. But, yeah, but during this peyote
13 research my shift changed quite a bit.
14 Q. Why is that?
15 A. I-- we had a large group of people doing the
16 peyote, and we created this peyote tea, which
17 is you take the roots-- which is a mistake. At
18 the time, they would cut lower in the ground,
19 which was causing a problem with the peyote
20 production, but they didn't know about it. Now
21 they cut up higher so that they regenerate.
22 The plants grow very slowly. We would chop the
23 roots off and boil those, and contrary to all
24 the myths out there, the hair does not have
25 strychnine or anything harmful. You can eat
0876
1 the fur if you want, which is no use. So you
2 could either peal the white fuzz out, or you
3 can cut it up and use it. We would then eat
4 the peyote and then drink the peyote tea. And
5 when you said easy, this is one of the hardest
6 things you can ever imagine doing. I fasted
7 for two weeks before my first major peyote
8 experience, and I was one of the only two
9 people out of about 16 people that could hold
10 it down, and this is--
11 Q. How many buttons did you have to take first?
12 A. Oh, I mean, I was able to get eight to ten
13 large buttons down, and then I got another 15
14 to 20 buttons down, and I was drinking this tea
15 that originally smelled like potato soup. And
16 I can still smell it to this day, and it was
17 the most foul smell I can imagine. And peyote,
18 once you have eaten it, you will remember it
19 for the rest of your life. It is one of the
20 most disgusting things I've ever eaten.
21 Q. First you ate it, then did you wait for the
22 effect, or--
23 A. No. You just start drinking the tea.
24 Q. How many buttons would have gone into the first
25 mixture of tea?
0877
1 A. Remember. I said we cut the bottoms of the
2 buttons off, which was the roots.
3 Q. So all 5,000, or just--
4 A. Oh, no, no. Maybe we picked 100 or 200 for the
5 group, and then we would prepare it, and so
6 most of the people underwent projectile
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7 vomiting. You go through this real bad phase


8 of where you sweat, and you realize why the
9 government doesn't mind the Indians legalizing
10 it, because there's not going to be a mass
11 epidemic of people wanting to use peyote,
12 because this stuff's rough, and it has a
13 natural barrier that you do not want to reenter
14 that. Nobody has gotten addicted to peyote.
15 Okay? It's unheard of in the history of
16 existence.
17 Q. And this first effect that you had?
18 A. It's called a somatic effect. It's a body
19 effect. It's unpleasant. It's a high fever.
20 It's a headache. It's like, "Oh, my goodness,"
21 and this is kind of a changing experience for
22 me, because it's the first time I'd ever done
23 anything that I crawled out of the house on all
24 fours, and I made a deal with God that, "I will
25 never touch anything again in my life if I can
0878
1 live through this," and I was for sure I was
2 going to die, and I was hoping I was going to
3 die, because I couldn't handle this physical
4 effect anymore. Just when I gave up, I flipped
5 over on my back out on a driveway, and I had an
6 incredible spiritual experience, and I was
7 changed at that moment.
8 Q. And describe that if you would.
9 A. I realized that this stuff was serious, this
10 research was serious. This-- I went from being
11 scientific model, understanding the deep
12 spirituality to it, to knowing the deep
13 spirituality to it.
14 Q. In the sense that in the folk lore of the
15 Indians going to the sweat lodge or the chief
16 going out into the wilderness and then thinking
17 about what's going on, you could actually in
18 your mind's eye experience and see things,
19 couldn't you?
20 A. Oh, absolutely.
21 Q. And it would be like visions or stories
22 relating to you, and ideas, and even people
23 talking to you?
24 A. The people talking to you would not necessarily
25 be-- maybe it was like a cosmic teacher
0879
1 teaching you a way of being.
2 Q. And you sitting there, and involved in this
3 spiritual experience, would actually feel like
4 it was going on as you were seeing it?
5 A. Or beholding it is a better phrase.
6 Q. As you were beholding it in the sense of how
7 maybe the movies or TV doesn't actually portray
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8 it. You've seen a movie--


9 A. Something like a "Vision Quest."
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. It's far greater than that. Those are people
12 that have not partaken of a sacrament.
13 Q. Exactly, but this is your first experience,
14 though?
15 A. No, my first experience that worked correctly.
16 Q. That worked correctly?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as you were there and partook it, these
19 feelings you first described as being on the
20 ground and you would never do again, those went
21 to the wayside.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where you reached that point where you said,
24 "Wow, this is it."
25 A. No, this isn't it. It's I've seen a new form
0880
1 of existence and a new way of being.
2 Q. How long did that effect last?
3 A. Peyote is quite long lasting, and because I was
4 on a two-week fast, I ended up having about a
5 14- to 18-hour experience, then I had an
6 afterglow that lasted maybe a week.
7 Q. In that afterglow experience, would that be
8 where you would at times feel like you were
9 back in that experience?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. What would it be, then?
12 A. It was a feeling of well-being.
13 Q. And I assume like in other research, you
14 would-- you or the others with you-- would you
15 try and write down what it is that you had just
16 gone through?
17 A. I had no interest in writing down from this
18 experience. This was a changing experience.
19 Q. So from that time in 1985 or '86 when you had
20 that experience, have you recreated or
21 reconstructed that experience?
22 A. You mean peyote?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. A few times. The older I get, the harder it
25 gets to want to consume peyote. I've found
0881
1 simpler ways of getting there. There's a lot
2 of other alkaloids than peyote.
3 Q. We'll get to that. I mean, now, using the
4 peyote, you had the natural way of doing it.
5 Is there on your list of items a way to extract
6 it differently?
7 A. Mescaline.
8 Q. Mescaline. So while we're on the peyotes and
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9 the teas, which one would mescaline be in


10 relation to the peyote?
11 A. You mean you want me to find mescaline listed
12 here?
13 Q. I'll find it while you're doing it, but is
14 mescaline something that's made?
15 A. You can synthesize mescaline or you can extract
16 mescaline, and there's different forms of
17 mescaline. For example, if you look very
18 closely at what comes out of San Pedro, which
19 is a legal plant, it turns out it's not truly
20 mescaline, but an isomer that is very close to
21 mescaline. And I think I should describe-- I
22 keep using this word, "isomer," and I think I
23 should describe to the jury so the jury has a
24 better thing. If you guys were all holding
25 hands in a given pattern, and you changed your
0882
1 order-- let's say you had formed a star or some
2 sort of a shape, but you, one of you, moved in
3 differently and another one of you moved out
4 differently, that would be the fastest way for
5 me to describe an isomer. In isomers, there
6 will be R and S forms and such. Then there's
7 another problem we can talk about, which is the
8 way that the molecule polarizes light, either
9 dextros or levos, which are Greek words for the
10 way it polarizes light. All molecules are
11 doing that. When you go to a health food
12 store, you see L-tryptophan. That's levos,
13 meaning that it is rotating light to the left.
14 If it's dextros, it's moving it to the right.
15 If it's D-L, it means it's in both forms.
16 Q. So No. 79, then, right above the peyote is the
17 mescaline, semicolon, whatever. What is it?
18 A. Well, my copy is-- it could be escaline. I
19 need to see an original copy.
20 Q. I just wrote the "M" on it, because I--
21 A. Yeah, escaline is also a compound, so I need to
22 look, because I want to be correct here.
23 MR. RORK: Do you have the original?
24 THE CLERK: It went to the court
25 reporters' office.
0883
1 A. No, it's 78, sir. At the end, the
2 nomenclature, the name mescaline is given.
3 Escaline is another very closely related form
4 of mescaline.
5 Q. And on 78, on this copy, what should go in
6 front of that 4? Is that a 3?
7 A. Three, 4, 5.
8 Q. And No. 78, then, is the synthetic way to get
9 to No. 80?
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10 A. No. You can extract mescaline. This is just


11 one of the chemical nomenclatures of mescaline.
12 It could be synthetic, or it could be natural.
13 Q. Could be natural. And have you in your
14 research done both synthetic and natural of
15 that?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. And how do you obtain the synthetic mescaline?
18 A. The synthetic mescaline was given to me through
19 different sources that I had over the years.
20 Q. It's not like from Sigma, you can't just buy
21 it?
22 A. You could buy mescaline if you possessed a
23 Schedule 1 license.
24 Q. But just in relation to the other examples you
25 have given, this one was a controlled
0884
1 substance?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And so if you bought it through your sources,
4 was there a way to extract it naturally from
5 something that was out there?
6 A. Yes. Ii's difficult to fractionate it out from
7 peyote. It's easier to get it from San Pedro.
8 Q. And where is the San Pedro found?
9 A. You can get it from most cactus places. It's
10 fully legal. Problem with San Pedro is you've
11 got to do an awful lot of it, while peyote you
12 don't have to do so much of it, and San Pedro,
13 it's a very different experience.
14 Q. In what way?
15 A. It's slow coming on, it's very lengthy, and it
16 seems to have a completely-- maybe it's just
17 that I didn't do it right. I hear that the
18 better way to do it is take slices and take an
19 MAOI with it, and it bounces it up. I haven't
20 had time to do research with it.
21 Q. And the mescaline in 78, the effect you
22 described is similar to peyote. That effect
23 you're talking about is the spiritual one that
24 came after all the initial negative things?
25 A. Yeah. I'll say yes.
0885
1 Q. Okay. In that regard, from '78 to '90, the use
2 of mescaline, how much do you think you've
3 researched on it?
4 A. Mescaline?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Maybe 20 times in my life. I mean, I'd have to
7 think about that. I'm roughing this for you.
8 Q. I understand. And when you did those things,
9 when you first did mescaline, had you already
10 done the peyote?
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11 A. No. I did mescaline first, and then I did


12 peyote.
13 Q. So when you did the peyote, you would have been
14 able to compare that spiritual experience
15 that--
16 A. Yeah. I didn't get the spiritual experience
17 when I did mescaline the first time that I got
18 when I did peyote.
19 Q. The first time?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. But then did there come a time when the
22 quantity or amount of mescaline you did helped
23 you recreate the effect of the peyote?
24 A. Somewhat, yes.
25 Q. And what would that quantity be?
0886
1 A. In my case I have to get up over 600
2 milligrams. This is a dangerous dose for most
3 people, and it does cause, as I get the visual
4 effect, does cause a slight tremor in my
5 system.
6 Q. And knowing that, is it what people would call,
7 like, you have a tolerance to it or something?
8 A. No, I just have to take a large amount to get
9 an effect, quote, in the common vernacular, I
10 would be considered a hard head.
11 Q. What would that mean?
12 A. That means I have to take larger doses per
13 pound than most people, or per kilogram.
14 Q. And so the spiritual experience wasn't quite
15 the same. Did you still have those feelings of
16 events taking place? I mean, like would you be
17 seated when you did this mescaline?
18 A. Maybe laying down on your back.
19 Q. Either inside or outside?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And sometimes what you were looking at would
22 help intensify the effects, for instance, a
23 lightening storm would be a good one for
24 mescaline?
25 A. Possibly, yes.
0887
1 Q. Possibly?
2 A. Are you sure you haven't used this?
3 Q. As opposed to a blank screen?
4 A. If it's strong enough, it doesn't make any
5 difference what you're doing.
6 Q. But sometimes you do try and look at visual
7 circumstances to intensify the effects?
8 A. Not in my case.
9 Q. Not in your case?
10 A. Unless it's out in nature.
11 Q. Exactly.
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12 A. I never watch a television. I never-- maybe


13 accidently my eyes will catch a painting, but I
14 don't-- I am an atypical user of the
15 entheogens.
16 Q. And that is you would go to a place where
17 either you, or one other, or more than one
18 would be to use this and then experience the
19 effects at that time?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Not like you take it and then go to a concert
22 or anything?
23 A. Absolutely not.
24 Q. Okay. And would you then write down, Todd,
25 when you were doing this on the mescaline, in
0888
1 this research, the types of information to
2 compare it to your other effects?
3 A. Sometimes, yes.
4 Q. And wouldn't it also be natural that when you
5 attended one of these events from '78 to '90
6 you would explain to others what the effect
7 was?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. And I would imagine that in order to be there
10 at one of these meetings where these
11 experiences would be shared, some of the people
12 may have consumed the items in question and
13 some may not have.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And the process involved in this theogen is to
16 relate to other people the experiences that you
17 individually have done and others collectively
18 have done?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Let's move on to another one, then, in this
21 time period that you were researching.
22 A. Give me the time period again.
23 Q. Seventy-eight to '90.
24 A. 110, 111.
25 Q. And on 111, should I put a "B" there?
0889
1 A. Yeah, it's baby Hawaiian woodrose seeds.
2 Q. And on 110?
3 A. Morning glory seeds.
4 Q. And then that's extracts thereof?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And 110 and 111, are those the same thing?
7 A. No. One is native to Mexico but is now all
8 over the United States. The other one is
9 easily available in the United States but, of
10 course, it's native to Hawaii.
11 Q. And which one would that be?
12 A. Baby Hawaiian woodrose seeds.
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13 Q. And how would you acquire those?


14 A. Through mail order.
15 Q. And it would be like ordering tomato seeds or
16 something else at that time?
17 A. Interestingly enough, these were available
18 through Lawrence, Kansas, at the time.
19 Q. And you would see this in a publication that
20 would carry something of interest that you were
21 reading?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then order it and research it?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. What did you find as far as the effects of 111
0890
1 when you used it in this time period?
2 A. Actually, I knew that I was extracting LSD-like
3 items, like lysergamide, and I would try to
4 figure out washes and stuff to clean it up, and
5 to then consume this, and I actually found this
6 to be an interesting experience.
7 Q. What do you mean?
8 A. This was worth repeating. Many things I've
9 done are not worth repeating, and this was
10 worth repeating.
11 Q. How so?
12 A. It had a very spiritual effect and a very
13 profound effect.
14 Q. And could you describe for me the spiritual
15 effect first?
16 A. Seeming, well, the boundaries of the normal
17 what we call the human being seem to have left,
18 and you blend into your environment. You seem
19 to become one with your environment. That is
20 an effect that I noticed from this. Also
21 heightened sense of smell, heightened sense of
22 what seemed to be cognitive experiences, faster
23 thoughts, and the ability to run parallel or
24 multiple thoughts at once.
25 Q. Heightened sense of smell and sound also?
0891
1 A. Well, in this case, I don't remember sound, so
2 I'm being specific. I'm not saying you're not
3 right, but I'm saying I don't remember that.
4 Q. And in this multiple conversations, it would be
5 like if you were, what, sitting in a restaurant
6 and other people were talking, you could hear
7 each of them individually at the same time?
8 A. That is an experience, but not with this one.
9 I'm saying parallel thoughts to where you could
10 think two, four, five conscious thoughts,
11 running them all at the same time like multi-
12 processing, multi-tasking in the mind.
13 Q. Like you, yourself, were actually talking to
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14 somebody else, or just--


15 A. No. You could think on a math problem, a
16 philosophical problem, a spiritual problem--
17 not necessarily problem, but systems, and solve
18 them all at the same time.
19 Q. And again, this would be in either one of these
20 external/outside or internal/inside settings
21 where somebody else knew what you were doing?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were, again, attempting to feel and to
24 catalog and research the effects?
25 A. Yes, and just see how strong this effect was,
0892
1 because a cousin of mine had been telling me
2 about this since I was probably 12 years old,
3 and eventually I got around to it.
4 Q. And when you were talking about the seed, did
5 you have to do anything with the seeds to
6 prepare it in its form to--
7 A. Oh, yeah.
8 Q. What?
9 A. Crushed them up, ground them up, poured alcohol
10 on them sometimes, put cold water on them to
11 extract, put warm water on them sometimes. I
12 would do a cold water wash, a warm water wash,
13 and then an alcohol wash.
14 Q. And again, each time you would do one of those
15 procedures, you would consume the items to see
16 what the effects were?
17 A. Yes, or maybe one of us would do one
18 preparation, the other would do the other
19 preparation at the same time.
20 Q. And as before, did you keep this research?
21 A. Some of it.
22 Q. And when you went to these seminars and other
23 events, you would share the experience?
24 A. Yeah. On this particular one, I didn't talk
25 much about it to other people.
0893
1 Q. How much did you think you consumed on 111?
2 A. Maybe three, four times in my life.
3 Q. What about No. 110?
4 A. I did it once, and that was enough.
5 Q. Describe the effects for 110 versus 111, if
6 there was any difference.
7 A. Significant difference. I didn't enjoy 111 at
8 all. I never figured out how to get a good
9 extract. I hear people have done a good job.
10 Enough other people were working on that one
11 that I didn't feel like I needed to work on it.
12 I typically worked on the hardest problems, not
13 the easy ones.
14 Q. When you say other people were working on those
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15 problems, that was--


16 A. The conferences, and what I was reading in the
17 books.
18 Q. And what had been related in the events you
19 attended?
20 A. Yes. The 110 has a very old entheogenic
21 history of use, even going back to the Mayan
22 times.
23 Q. And with respect to this time period we have
24 talked about and with respect to the items we
25 have mentioned so far from '78 to '90, would
0894
1 you travel to different locations within the
2 United States to attend those events?
3 A. Yes, San Juan Islands, Orcas Island, which is a
4 part of the San Juan Islands, there was a
5 place, Brighton Bush, which is another place
6 that would have it. Telluride, California,
7 those were the main places, and also Tucson,
8 Arizona.
9 Q. And we're going to get to other items but,
10 basically, for the ones you've described so
11 far, those were the locations you would have
12 gone to conferences?
13 A. For conferences, yes.
14 Q. Would you go by plane or car?
15 A. By plane, sometimes by car, but if I was going
16 to Orcas Island, I was taking a plane up there.
17 Q. Would you take anybody with you or go by
18 yourself?
19 A. In that particular case, I usually went by
20 myself. That's actually where I first saw in
21 my life Alfred Savinelli in 1984.
22 Q. And what would that have been at?
23 A. Mycophile IV or Mycophile V. I can't remember.
24 Q. Is Mycophile--
25 A. Basically, it was hosted by Paul Stamets, Ph.D.
0895
1 Andy Weil, Jonathan Ott, many of the famous
2 people in the entheogen community were there.
3 Q. Some of the people you've described or
4 discussed--
5 A. The people that write the books and deal with
6 this.
7 Q. When you went through Government 196, the
8 computer generated--
9 A. Some of their names were in there, not all.
10 Q. Mr. Weil, Mr. Ott?
11 A. Yes. Stamets's name was not in there.
12 Q. When you went there in 1984, for example, would
13 this be an event posted secretly on a back door
14 room?
15 A. Kind of. Eighty-five I remember real well. It
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16 was interesting people that showed up. It was


17 a very small number of us, so we were much more
18 able to get one-on-one experiences and talk to
19 people that were really quite brilliant. It
20 was a small group, less than 30.
21 Q. Would it be advertised?
22 A. They would print up some cheap little fliers
23 and hope they covered a tenth of their cost.
24 Q. And you had to pay a registration fee?
25 A. It was cheap, nominal.
0896
1 Q. Would you have to be responsible for your own
2 hotel room?
3 A. It was on a boy scout camping ground, some
4 camping ground. We would stay in lodges.
5 Q. Would it be for a day, or a longer period?
6 A. Three, four days is what I remember. It was in
7 a rainy season in the-- October time is what I
8 seem to remember Mycophile was, where rain
9 would happen and fungus would grow all over the
10 island.
11 Q. And would this also, this one in '84, this
12 event, would it be similar to other events
13 where participants might even themselves go off
14 by themselves and partake of some of their own
15 experiments?
16 A. Yes. I didn't happen to do that at the events,
17 at the Mycophile events, but I'm sure that went
18 on.
19 MR. RORK: Judge, I just wondered if
20 this would be a good time to close at this
21 point?
22 THE COURT: Yes, I think so. That
23 would be adequate. All right, ladies and
24 gentlemen, let's recess now until 9:30 in the
25 morning. We'll see you here at that time. Mr.
0897
1 Bailiff.
2 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court will
3 stand adjourned until 9:30 in the morning.
4 (THEREUPON, a recess was had.)
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0898
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA )
) ss:
2 DISTRICT OF KANSAS )
3 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, Roxana S. Montgomery, Certified
5 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of
6 Kansas, do hereby certify that I was present at
7 and reported in machine shorthand the
8 proceedings had the 5th day of February, 2003,
9 in the above-mentioned court; that the
10 foregoing transcript is a true, correct, and
11 complete transcript of the requested
12 proceedings.
13 I further certify that I am not attorney
14 for, nor employed by, nor related to any of the
15 parties or attorneys in this action, nor
16 financially interested in the action.
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
18 my hand and official seal at Topeka, Kansas,
19 this day of , 2003.
20
21
22 Roxana S. Montgomery
23 Certified Shorthand Reporter
24
25