0001 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE NINTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 vs.
FOR ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, Plaintiff/Counter-Defendant, CASE NO.: 08-CA-24573
CASEY ANTHONY, Defendant/Counter-Plaintiff. -----------------------------------------------------The videotaped deposition of ANNIE DOWNING taken pursuant to Notice on behalf of the Plaintiff/Counter-Defendant on Thursday, May 21, 2009, beginning at 1:03 p.m., at the law firm of Morgan & Morgan, 20 North Orange Avenue, 16th Floor, Orlando, Florida, before Laura J. Landerman, R.M.R., C.R.R., F.P.R., and Notary Public, State of Florida at Large.
24 25 0002 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S: JOHN B. DILL, ESQUIRE KEITH R. MITNIK, ESQUIRE 3 Morgan & Morgan, P.A. 20 North Orange Avenue -- 16th Floor 4 5 6 Orlando, Florida 32801 For the Plaintiff/Counter-Defendant, No appearance on behalf of the Defendant/Counter-Plaintiff, 7 WARREN LINDSEY, ESQUIRE 8 Kirkconnell, Lindsey, Snure & Yates 1150 Louisiana Avenue -- Suite 1 9 10 11 Winter Park, Florida 32789 For the Witness. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Lee Fouraker of Ron Fleming Video Productions 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 INDEX TESTIMONY OF ANNIE DOWNING Direct Examination by Mr. Dill CERTIFICATE OF OATH CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER WORD INDEX EXHIBITS (None marked.) 4 81 82
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0004 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good afternoon. The date is May 21st, 2009. This is the deposition of Annie Downing being taken in the matter of Zenaida Gonzalez versus Casey Anthony. It's 1:03 p.m., and we're on record. Counsel, please introduce yourselves. MR. DILL: John Dill along with Keith Mitnik representing the plaintiff. MR. LINDSEY: Warren Lindsey representing Annie Downing. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And if the court reporter would please swear in the witness. ----ANNIE DOWNING
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having been first duly sworn testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DILL: Q A Q A Q Good afternoon. Hi. Can you please state your name? Annie Downing. And it's -- I think we had it spelled wrong on
the subpoena. A Q D-O-W-N-I-N-G. Okay. And you live here in Orlando?
Uh-huh. MR. LINDSEY: You have to say "yes" or "no."
Yes. I'm going to be asking you some questions
today. Okay? My name's John Dill. Do you know Casey Anthony? A Q I do. All right. And why don't you tell us when
you -- when you first met her. A My sophomore/junior year of high school I knew
about her, knew of her. Q A What high school was that? Colonial High School.
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So sophomore/junior, do we know about what
time frame, what year that would have been? A Q I graduated in '03, so 2000 -- 2002. And when you say you knew about her, she was
an acquaintance from high school? A Q Yes. Were you on any sports teams with her or
anything like that? A Q No, not with her. And were you guys friendly socially back in
high school? A I didn't hang out with her outside of school.
Did there come a time when you became a little
bit better friends than acquaintances? A Q A Q A Q Yes. And kind of direct me to when that was. It would have been 2006. 2005, 2006. And you had already graduated high school? Yes. I was in college. 2006. Where were you -- where were you going to
school? A Q UCF. And at that point in time, 2006, how was it
that you guys became, I guess, reacquainted and became
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better friends? A She started dating a friend of mine, and we
started hanging out because of that. Q A Q living? A Q Sawgrass Apartments. And I believe you were living there with I see. And your friend was? Brandon Snow. And during this time period, where were you
somebody; is that correct? A Q My ex-boyfriend, Dante Salati. I'm going to ask some questions about when you
moved in there and how long you lived there. Okay? Do
you remember when it was you moved in with Dante at Sawgrass Apartments? A Q October, November of 2005, I do believe. Do you remember -- I think you had had a lease
there or you -A Q Yes, I did. -- guys reupped the lease; is that right? Is
he the one that signed the lease or did you both sign it? A Q We both signed the lease. Do you remember what apartment you were in, by
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218. And did Dante Salati, do you know if he
continued living in the Sawgrass Apartments -A Q A Q A Q Snow? A Q Yes. And did Casey and Brandon and then Dante and Yes. -- after you left? He still lives there. He currently lives there? He currently lives there. And when you and -- I guess you knew Brandon
you socialize? A Yes.
Did you ever socialize over at the Sawgrass
Apartments? A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes. And did Casey become friends with Dante? They'd known each other since high school. They're all -Yeah, we were all friends in high school. Are you still in contact with Dante? Yes. And do you know where he works?
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A now. Q
Not currently. I don't know where he works
But you know that he still works -- I mean,
still lives over at the Sawgrass Apartments? A Q Yes. Do you know anybody else -- I'm going to start
now and kind of move backwards -- anybody else who currently lives at the Sawgrass Apartments? A Dante's girlfriend. I don't know her name,
though, but I know his girlfriend lives there. Q A Q Do they live together there or do you know? He's moving in with her. I see. But they both live there at that
apartment? A But they both live there currently in two
different apartment. Q her? A Q I don't think she does. Have you ever known anybody who works at the Do you know if she knows Casey Anthony or knew
Sawgrass Apartments? A Q No. I asked about that currently, but let's say
moving back just a few years focusing, again, on
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Sawgrass. Did you ever know anybody who else who lived there at one time but no longer lives there that you're friendly with? A there. Q Would that -- would that be somebody that was I had a friend, a family friend that lived
friendly with Casey or do you know? A Q No. So Danti Salati, then, your ex-boyfriend,
lived there during, I guess, from '05 through today? A Q know? A I think that's the apartment number. If Through current, yes, sir. And was -- does he still live in 218; do you
that's the apartment number, then that's where it is. Q First floor or second floor; do you remember?
Second floor. Did Casey ever bring Caylee over to the
Sawgrass Apartments, to your knowledge? A Q A Yes. And tell me about that. She'd come over to hang out with me after --
after I got off school. She'd come over and hang out, bring Caylee all the time.
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And would you guys do stuff there at the
apartment, play around? A Just watch TV, play with Caylee, play with my
dog. Caylee loved my dog. Q A Q What type of dog did you have? Miniature long-haired Dauschand. Do you know if Casey ever befriended or met
anybody who worked there at the Sawgrass Apartments? A Q Not to my knowledge. Kind of orient me as to time frame here. When
Casey used to bring Caylee over to Sawgrass Apartments, how old was Caylee at that time? A Year and a half because her second birthday
was -- her second birthday was 2007 because 2008 she would have been three, so a year and a half. Q And let me ask this. At the Sawgrass
Apartments, while you were living there or any time
subsequent, did you ever know anybody who lived there named Zenaida Gonzalez? A Q No, sir. I'm going to get to this in a moment a little
bit more in detail, but when was the first time you ever heard the name Zenaida Gonzalez? A On the news.
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Q A Q
You never met a Zenaida Gonzalez? No, sir. And when you and Casey became good friends,
did you also meet kind of her group of friends as well? A Q Her group of friends was my group of friends. And is it a small group or a large group or do
you know? A Q It was bigger then than it is now. And as far as your kind of social group of
friends back during that time period, is it fair to say you all were -- everybody kind of knew each other? A Q Yes. And you would talk to Casey's other friends
even when Casey wasn't around just to kind of catch up? A Q Yes. Did you ever hear anybody in that group of
friends ever mention the name Zenaida Gonzalez? A No, sir.
Did you ever hear any of her friends mention
the name Zanny? A Q No, sir. All right. Have you ever met a Zanny, a
person named Zanny that has been described as a ten that was friends, long-time friends with Casey?
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A Q A Q
No, sir. Do you believe that person even exists? No, sir. Now, I'm going to kind of loop back here as
far as Caylee a little bit. Did you ever baby-sit Caylee? A Q No, sir. Do you know if anybody ever received money or
was paid to be a nanny or baby-sitter for Casey? I mean Caylee. Sorry. A Q I had never met that person, no. And did you ever hear about Casey hiring a
nanny for Caylee? A She would talk about it, but I've never seen,
met, talked to that person. Q When you -- when you first heard about a
nanny, was that back during this time period or was it closer to 2008 when Caylee went missing? A I might have heard it once or twice before
this, I mean, maybe once or twice. Q A Q A But did you ever see this person? No. I've never seen -Never seen the nanny? Never seen --
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Q A Q
Any nanny? Never seen any nanny. When you say that she would talk about it,
what would she say? What kind of stuff would she -A Oh, just where's Caylee? And she'd say, oh,
she's with the nanny. I've got to go pick Caylee up from the nanny. Q You don't remember, again, any more specifics
about who the nanny was or -A Q A (Shakes head.) -- where they were? The only other thing that I remember was that
at one point the nanny, the baby-sitter, lived in MetroWest, then moved over by UCF. That's it. Q A Q And that's according to Casey? That's according to what Casey said. Did any of your other group of friends ever
say that they met this nanny or any nanny? A Q Not to my knowledge. Now, subsequent, I guess, you guys have, I
would imagine, have talked about -A Q Yes. -- about this? Has any of your group of
friends that you had in common with Casey ever said to
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you that they met any nanny? A Q No, sir. Has any of them ever said that they've ever
met or seen anybody named Zanny that was a nanny? A Q Not to my knowledge. And has any of them ever said that they've met
or seen a Zenaida Gonzalez? A Q Not to my knowledge. Now, during the time period -- I'm sorry to
jump around a little bit. But during the time period when she was -- when Casey was dating Brandon, is it? A Q Yes. You guys became a little bit closer as far as
friends, you and Casey? A Q Yes. Would you e-mail, IM, text message, that type
of thing? A Q Yes. And were you fairly, as far as girlfriends,
were you fairly close? A We were best friends for a short period of
time. Q And you would characterize it, again, in your
words, as being best friends?
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Uh-huh. Yes, sir. So would you -- did you get the impression
that she was comfortable confiding in you -A Q A Q Yes. -- and talking to you? Yes. Of that -- during that time period when you
were best friends, on average, how much time would you spend together, let's say, daily or weekly? A Q Like physically together? Well, let's start with that and then we'll go
how often you talked as well. A Q I would say a couple hours every other day. And then you would also communicate via the
different -- talk on the phone? A Q Text messaging, phone, Internet. E-mail, that type of thing. So it was fair to
say you were in pretty constant contact with her? A Q Yes. The other message as far as the text
messaging, e-mail, I mean, would it be a chat like on IM? A No, Instant Messenger. Just Instant
Messenger. Q Instant Messenger?
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A Q A Q A Q
Yes, sir. And was that a fairly constant thing -Yes. -- during that time period? Yes. And, again, during all this time period, did
she ever mention the name Zanny? A Q No, sir. And so would you also -- back during this time
period when you would see each other, would you also go around to her house and be at her house? A Q A Q Occasionally. Had you met George and Cindy? Yes. And did you ever have conversations with them
or talk to them back during this time period when you were best friends? A Q Through -- in passing, yes. And did they ever mention to you, George and
Cindy ever mention to you a nanny of any type? A Q A No, sir. Did they ever mention the name Zanny? No, sir.
Was that something that was in common
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conversation that you heard around their house? A Q A Q A Q No, sir. You know Lee as well? Yes. And how do you know Lee? Through Casey? Through high school, in high school. Has Lee ever told you that he has met anybody
named Zanny the nanny? A Q No, sir. Has he ever said to you I know Zenaida
Gonzalez? A Q No, sir. And has he ever mentioned to you the existence
of a nanny, whether one existed or not? A Q Not to my knowledge, no. You were -- I guess because Caylee used to
come over to the house or to the Sawgrass and you used to interact, did you ever -- did you play with her, take care of her, that type of thing? A Q Well, Casey was always there. Yeah, I understand. But even with the three
of you guys together? A Q Yeah, I'd play with her. Did Caylee ever mention the name Zanny?
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No, sir. She really didn't talk then. But she never talked about a puppy or anything
like that that you heard, a puppy belonging to Zanny? A but -Q All right. The times that Casey would have No, no. I mean, they have their own dogs,
talked about the nanny, as you said before, that the nanny had her, did she ever attach any name to that nanny? A Q No, sir, just baby-sitter. So this would -- again, the baby-sitter, the
nanny, never had a name attached to it at any time? A Q No official name, no, sir. During the time that you knew her and
became -- were closer friends, let's say, when you were best friends, was Casey working, to your knowledge? A Q That's what she told me. You say that like that you found out something
different. A Q A Q A Yes. But she told you she was working? Yes, sir. And what did she say? She said she worked at Sports Authority, and
then she went back to work for Universal.
0019 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q And did you ever, again, see her going to work
or coming from work? A No, sir. She -- I mean, there are times that
I'd see her. She'd say, oh, I just got off work and she'd be dressed up, but never saw anything else other than that. Q Did you come to find out that she was not, in
fact, working? A Q No, sir. Now, there was a time -- as you said, there
was a time when you were fairly close friends. During that time period, did you ever find her to be untruthful about anything to you? A Q A Yes. Can you give me some examples? Just about reasons why she couldn't go out.
She'd say I'm working. Obviously, she wasn't working. Q A Right. Basically, just things like that. I've never
caught her like lying to me, but, I mean, there are things that I just doubted. Anything specific other than her working I can't -- I can't remember things specifically. Q When you say you doubted it, is this because
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it didn't seem to make any sense?
Just she had the ideal job. She could work
from home at any time. I mean, I'd love to have a job like that, but -Q Do you have an opinion, in your mind, as to
why she lied to you about those things? A Q I don't know why. As far as her reputation kind of in the
community among your group of friends there, are you familiar with her reputation as far as her truthfulness? A things. Q A Which was? But never really caught her lying to us. You I mean, we all kind of assumed the same
know, we never -- I mean, we all kind of assumed -- like I said, she worked from home all the time. Nobody at that age can work from home at that time and work for a major corporation. To me, it's impossible. Q And so as far as her telling fibs or telling
lies, did some of your other friends ever mention the same type of thing that either she had lied to them or she had exaggerated or told things that weren't true? A Q Can you clarify what you mean? Sure. I mean, when you're talking to your
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other friends, did they ever give any instances of her telling --
No, not that I can remember, nothing specific. Now, how about as far as her taking money or
taking things that didn't belong to her? Among your group of friends, did you ever have conversations about that? A I don't know that she's ever taken anything
from any of my friends. Q Did you come to learn that she had taken
something from her parents? A Q A Q That's what I've heard. And how did you hear that? The news. All right. Was there a time that there was
a -- I guess a graduation that Casey was going to? A Q A My college graduation. Tell me about that. We were on our way to my graduation, and Casey
got a phone call from her mom. And Casey told me at the time that her mother was mad at her, and she had to go home because she didn't sign up for college classes at Valencia. Well, after speaking to Cindy after all of this, come to find out Cindy had just gotten a credit
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card bill where Casey had spent their money on a phone bill, I think, it was. I'm not certain, but -Q So you actually talked to Cindy about it?
A Q A
Yes. And Cindy told you what, that -That she had found a credit card statement
that Casey had spent a lot of their money. I never saw the statement or anything. Q A Q A Q But that was something Cindy told you -Yes. -- subsequently or when was that? After -- after Caylee went missing. I see. When you talked to Cindy about that,
what was her demeanor? Did she appear upset about the fact that the money had been taken? A Q I mean, it was a year later. Right. Did she say that she had been upset at
the time or -A Q She said she was furious. And I guess the context -- what was the
context of how that came up? Was Cindy talking about graduation -A We were -- no. We were just kind of like
talking about things trying to get Casey's lies out in
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the open -Q A Right. -- about things. I was really upset that she
had missed my college graduation. I wanted her to be
there. And so I asked Cindy about that, and she said, no, this is what really happened. Q And what really happened was that there a
credit card bill, an issue about that -A Q Yes. -- where Casey had taken money from the
family? A Q That's what Cindy said, yes. Were there other lies and those type of
conversations that you had with Cindy about Casey? A Q Her not having a high school diploma. Tell me about that. Did she tell you she had
a high school diploma? A Yeah. She said that she was enrolled in
college. Q A And what did you find out about that? Cindy said she didn't even have a high school
diploma. Q And that was -- as somebody who was your best
friend, she was telling you that she was enrolling in
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college? A Q Yes. When, in fact, she hadn't even graduated high
school? A Yes.
At the time that you were having that
conversation after Caylee went missing, I mean, why was it that you and Cindy -- why was it that Cindy was telling you that or why was it that the two of you were having that conversation? Was that having to do with whether Casey might have done something to Caylee or -A Q We were trying to track down Caylee. And as part of that, that's how this came up
about -A Q Yes, yes. -- the earlier lies and inconsistencies that
she had told? A Q Yes, sir. During those conversations there, tell me
everything that you can remember about Cindy trying -exactly what you were talking about when you say you were trying to find out where Caylee was. Tell me a little bit more about what Cindy was saying about what Casey had said and the lies she had told.
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Those were the two things that I -- the one
conversation about my college graduation, how I said that, you know, I was upset because Casey had to leave, and I was like, you know, I was mad at Cindy. I told Cindy I was mad at you because you pulled her out of my graduation. And she said, well, you know, she stole a
bunch of money from me. And I said, well, I thought it was because she wasn't registering for classes, and she said she doesn't even have a high school diploma. So those two are tied together. Q A Right. Anything else was just us like trying to trace
down Casey during the times where Caylee was missing. Q Now, during that time when Caylee was missing
and you were having this conversation with Cindy, was there discussion or talk about Zanny at that point? A Q We were trying to figure out who she was. And what did Cindy -- tell me a little bit
more about that as far as Cindy and your conversations about trying to figure out who this person was. A She didn't -- she didn't have any more clue
than any of us did. Q And tell me a little bit about that. Was
it -- when you had the conversations. I mean, because as
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you may know, Cindy has said that Zenaida, or Zanny, was a common name that they had heard and they knew all about her. Was that the impression that you got? A That's what she said, I mean, that Casey had
talked about it, you know, the nanny, but they had never met her, as far as what they've told me. Q And did they ever say to you, hey, we had her
phone numbers or anything like that? A Q Not -- not that I can remember. And so certainly during the time when Caylee
was missing, there were some questions about whether this person was even real or existed? A Q A Q A Yes. And these were questions Cindy had as well -Yes. -- to your knowledge? She wanted to know if any of us knew her, and
none of us do. MR. MITNIK: Do you mind if I just ask a couple instead of whispering in his ear? MR. DILL: Because it's like a telephone. I'm missing it anyway. EXAMINATION BY MR. MITNIK:
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Just on the conversation with Cindy. Was
Cindy saying things to you that indicated she doubted whether this person Zanny the nanny existed? A No, because she was -- I mean, she always knew
that Caylee was safe. But, I mean, her blatantly coming out and saying I don't think this person existed, those words never came out of her mouth. Q Actually, tell me what she would say to you in
this -- you-all are both trying to get to the bottom of question. And I'm just trying to figure out what Cindy was saying to you. I don't expect you to remember exactly, but -A Q A Yeah, I don't remember word for word. -- what was the gist of what she was saying? Just that she's talked to her before -- I
mean, no, talked -- like her and Casey talked about the nanny before. I don't think that Cindy's ever talked to the nanny herself, but she, I mean, to me seemed like that this person did exist. Q That she was -- Cindy was acting as if she
thought she existed? A Q Yes, that Cindy felt this person existed. And then what was she saying about -- what did
she say to you, the gist of it, in trying to find this
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person? A Just trying to figure out who she was hanging
out with at the time, you know, who her friends were. It was a long time ago, and there was so much going on. I -Q When you say trying to find out who her
friends were, are you talking about Casey? A Casey -- yeah, like who Casey was hanging out
with because we -- nobody knew this person, none of my
friends. My friends are Casey's like core group of friends. She had friends outside of us, but we -- you know, we really didn't hang out with all those other friends that she had. You know, she'd go from group to group and we didn't hang out with them. But it was like a work friend or someone who baby-sat someone she worked with's kids. Q And how was the name, this Zanny the nanny
name, even coming up that you-all were trying to talk about who she might be? How had it come up at all? A We had all met at their house to like make a
time line to see, you know, try to trace Casey's steps to figure out, you know, where Caylee was. Q A And what time frame? Is this after -This is after July 15th.
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Q A Q A
Is Casey in jail at the time? Yes. And you say we were all together. Who's "we"? Me and my friends. Me, Shawn Daley, Chris
Stutts, Christina. I don't know Christina's last name. I think Stephanie was there. I'm not -- there were a couple people, but I don't remember who they were. Q A Q And Cindy? And Cindy. Was George there?
I don't think so because I think he was at
work or he was out doing something. I don't -- I don't recall him being there. Q A Q And where were you-all? At their house. And so at this time, Casey's in jail, but she
has told this story that Caylee is with this Zanny the nanny or Zenaida Gonzalez, and you-all are trying to figure out who she is so you can try to help find her. A Q A Q was? Yes. Is that the gist of it? Yes. And in that setting, no one had a clue who she
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No, sir. And in that setting, Cindy Anthony gave no
indication that she had any way of contacting this person? A Q No, sir. Do you think in the context of that
conversation if Cindy had had addresses or phone numbers on Zanny the nanny that that would have likely come out? A Q A Absolutely. And it did not? It did not.
And she didn't say anything about having
address books or phone numbers or anything written down and having turned them over to the police or anything like that for Zanny the nanny? A Q Not that I can remember. Would you likely remember that if she had
said that? A Oh, I -- because I would have wanted to know. MR. MITNIK: Okay. Thanks. EXAMINATION (cont'd) BY MR. DILL: Q Since we're talking about Zenaida, was there a
time right around before the 15th, I think it might have
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been July 8th, when you saw Casey out with a new boyfriend of hers? A Q A Q A Q A July 5th. And how do you remember that it was July 5th? Day after the 4th of July. Right. Okay. Where'd you see her? Buffalo Wild Wings at Waterford Lakes. And who all was there? There was lots of people there. We were
watching the USC fight. Q A And she showed up without Caylee? Yes.
Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q
And who was she with? Tony. And is it Lazzaro or -- whatever you -Tony. You knew him as Tony? Tony, yes. And was that the first time you met him? Yes. Did she introduce him as her boyfriend? Yes. And did she tell you on that date, July 5th,
where Caylee was?
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A Q A Q A
She said that she was at the beach. And did she say with whom? The nanny. And did she say anything else besides that? No. I asked her about -- because my dad had
seen her a few days before, a week before, at a liquor store, and she was with a couple friends. My dad didn't recognize the friends but recognized her. Didn't say anything to Casey, didn't see Caylee. My dad -- I asked her about that, and she said that -- she's like -- she got baffled at the fact that I asked that my father -- or I asked her, you know, was Caylee with her. She's like, no, of course, I didn't
bring Caylee to the liquor store with me. Q A Q A Q A Right. Who got -- oh, Casey got baffled -Yes, Casey. -- that you asked her about that? Yes. Why did you ask her? Was there a reason? Oh, I just said, oh, my dad said he ran into
you. You know, he saw you but he didn't say anything. I was just making conversation. I hadn't seen her in a while. Q I gotcha. Okay. So right around this time,
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though, around the 5th, though, did you ever come to find out or get a message from Lee or anybody else? A Yes. Lee sent me a message on Myspace maybe a
week and a half, two weeks before that, I don't -- I mean, sometime between the beginning of June and the middle of July -- that they hadn't seen Casey or Caylee -- their parents hadn't seen Casey or Caylee, hadn't really heard from them, wanted to make sure everything was okay. You know, asked if I heard from her, if she was staying with me. And I text message Casey immediately asking her if everything was okay, and she said, yeah, everything is fine. Q She sent you back a text?
Yes. And do you remember what she said, what the
text said? A Everything -- I mean, not word for word, but
the gist of it was that everything's okay. Everything's fine. We're fine. Caylee's fine. You know, my parents are crazy. I talk to them all the time. Q So then do you know if your father had seen
her subsequent to you getting that message? A I don't know when it was that my dad saw
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them -- saw her. He had just got back from a trip, but I -- when that -- when that message I got on Myspace was and when my dad saw her, I don't -Q When you saw Casey at Buffalo Wild Wings
around the 5th and she said that Caylee was at the beach, did you mention the Lee message at that point or did she bring up the fact that you had texted her? A Q A Q A Q No, no. I don't think she brought it up. In your mind you thought that she was -Everything was fine. -- she was telling the truth -Yes. -- and that her daughter was at the beach and
all that? A Yes, sir.
Did she say anything more at that point about
the nanny, whether this was -- who this person was or any identity of the nanny at that point? A Q No, sir. Out of that group of friends that were there
at Buffalo Wild Wings, did any of you guys subsequent to when all -- when Casey went in jail, did you guys talk again about that meeting and what she might have said to one of them?
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I think we all always asked, you know, where's
Caylee, how's Caylee, and she always told us she's fine. Q or -A The beach or a theme park or just at the And would say that she was somewhere else
nanny's. Q Now, during this time period around July 5th,
did you still have the impression then that she had had this dream job and was still working? A Q Yes. And obviously now come to find out that was
not true? A Q Yes. When you saw her at Buffalo Wild Wings, did
Casey appear to be, you know, under duress or acting any differently when you saw her?
Absolutely not. Describe for me how she was, you know, her
demeanor. A Q Happy go lucky like nothing was wrong. Were you able to see if she was drinking or
not when you were at the Buffalo Wild Wings? A I think she might have had a couple drinks,
but not -- I mean, maybe two.
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Did she appear, her demeanor, the way she
acted, any different than she had back when you guys were hanging out more? A Q No, sir, not at all. As you said, happy go lucky like nothing was
wrong? A Q Yes. Was that the only time between the time you
got that message from Lee and then when she -- July 15th, let's say, was that the only time you saw her? A Q A Q On July 5th? Yes. To my knowledge, yes. How about other IMs or text messages during
that time period, if you remember? A Not really, not really, because at that point
we really weren't that close anymore.
Right, because you had -We saw each other -- we saw each other, you
know, randomly. I'd seen her at a party in May, but that's it. Q And you weren't as close because I guess you
weren't dating the same people that you had been dating before or --
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She was dating a new guy and was hanging out
with them a lot. Q And do you know if that was the guy that
showed up at the Wild Wings? A Q A Q A Q No, it's not the same person. Do you know who it was? Ricardo. Ricardo Morales. Are you friendly with him or do you know him? We used to work together. Have the two of you ever discussed where
Caylee was during this time period or anything of those things? A When everything first happened, yeah, we
talked about it because both of us were baffled. We couldn't believe that this person we thought we knew was lying to us about basically everything. We discussed that. He had said he was very upset because she had
stayed the night -- Casey and Caylee had stayed the night at his house sometime in early June, I don't remember exactly the date he had said, that he was upset about that because he's like, you know, what if that was the last time anybody saw Caylee alive. So he was very upset about that. But other than that, no.
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Did he ever say anything to you anything about
a nanny or Zanny the nanny, anything like that? A Not to my knowledge. Not that I could
remember. Q So after Lee sends you the message, did you
ever reply to Lee? A Yeah. I told him I just talked to Casey. She
said everything's fine. Short and sweet. Q Was that basically the last of that series of
conversations -A Q A Q Yes. -- between you and Lee? Yes. So then after the 5th, after Buffalo Wild
Wings -- how long was everybody there? Was it during the duration of the fight? A Yeah. We got there pretty early. I would say
between 7:00 and 7:30. And I think -- I went out afterwards, so I think -- I want to say I left 11:00,
11:30'ish, maybe even 12. Q A Q A Right. Was she still there; do you remember? I do believe she was. With Tony? Tony.
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And that was the first time, I guess, you had
talked to Tony or met Tony? A Q A Q A Q I didn't even really talk to him. Have you subsequently talked to him -No, sir. -- or seen him around or anything like that? No, sir. I'm going to get to July 15th in just a moment
here, but I want to backtrack a little bit before we get into July 15 forward, okay, to kind of orient you. Did you ever observe any tension or fights between Casey and Cindy ever? A Q A Before July 15th? Sure. We're going back. I never observed them, no. Casey would call
me upset my mom this, my mom that, my dad this, my dad that. I mean -Q What were the issues with her mom concerning
Caylee specifically? A The biggest one was on her second birthday.
Tell me about that. Caylee was, you know, opening her presents,
and Cindy was doing a lot of the work for her and Casey got upset. We had discussion about it. You know, she
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was upset that Cindy was, you know, helping Caylee when it was Casey's daughter. Casey wanted to be the one helping. Q And did she say that was an issue between the
two of them or a problem? A I think that it's -- it was an ongoing battle
with the two of them. Q Because you said -- during that time period
would have been the time she would have confided in you? A Q Yes, yes. So were there times when she would either call
you or e-mail you and vent about that situation? A Q Absolutely. And when you say the ongoing battle, I just
want to be a little more specific. Describe what you mean. A She'd called me before about it. You know, my
mom, you know -- I can't -- I remember her second birthday specifically because there's videos of it. There's pictures of it. But I mean anything specific, any dates, any times as to when she called saying they
had problems, I just remember her talking about it. Q And when you say the problems, was it that
ongoing thing about Cindy being more either involved or
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trying to be more of the mom? A Q Trying to be more of the mom. And that that was something that was upsetting
to Casey? A Q how? A She just -- because Casey was Caylee's mom. To Casey, yes. Did she describe why that was upsetting or
Cindy's her grandmother. And that's what -- it was her daughter. Q Did Casey ever say to you anything during
those time periods about plans to try to move out of the house or anything like that? A Q A Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about that. She just wanted to get a place on her own,
but, you know, she had it good at her parents' house. She never specifically said any -- any specific place, but she wanted to, but, I mean, it was going to be like years. Q A Years forward? Yes.
Did she ever mention Sawgrass as one of the
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No, sir. As far as that ongoing problems or fights, I
guess, between Casey and Cindy, did Casey ever tell you that she was having some sort of a breakdown or problems? A Q A Yes. Okay. Tell me about that. She'd come to my work one day for lunch, and
she was really, really upset. She was in professional clothes like she had just gotten off work. She had Caylee with her. We went to go grab something to eat, and she said, you know I just feel like I'm having a breakdown. I feel like I'm losing it. You know, I just -- I need to get away. And I'm like, oh, you want to go away for the weekend? And she's like, no, like I need to go somewhere. Like I didn't understand what she was saying. She said that she wanted to like go to an institution for a little bit, get everything out of her -- you know, off of her mind or whatever. She never said anything specific. And I asked her what she would do with Caylee, and she said that she would give her to her grandparents, to Cindy and George. Q And do you remember about what time frame
we're talking about that this happened?
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Absolutely not. Before Caylee's second
birthday for sure. I know that. Q A Q So before August of, what is that, '07? 2008. Oh, no, no, 2007. You're right. Okay. And was that -- the subject of the
tension or problems between Cindy and Casey, would those come up during conversations with the two of you often moving forward? A Not often, but we did talk about it before,
before her second birthday. That wasn't the only time. Q issue? A Q Yeah. Now, let me ask some questions, and you may So is it fair to say it was sort of an ongoing
remember this from the interview with the police. And I just want to ask some questions about -- particularly about Xanax, okay, so I'm going to ask about that. I believe there was an e-mail or an IM where Casey said that she could get a Xanax from her friend Annie. A Q about? A Yes. Uh-huh. You remember -- do you know what I'm talking
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And that's obviously -- tell me about that.
Is that true or -A Q A Q Completely untrue. Do you know why she would have said that or -I have no clue. Do you know if she was -- had you ever been
around her when she had taken Xanax? A Q Absolutely not. Have you ever -- have you ever heard the term
that Xanax refers -- or Zanny the nanny refers to Xanax given to a kid? Have you heard that? A People on the Internet have said that. I've
heard on the news. Q Right. But have you -- did you hear it
among your -A Q Friends, no. So this -- this e-mail, I guess what it is,
bookmark -A Q Instant Messager. -- instant message saying that she could hook
up, my friend Annie, you don't know anything about that? A Q A Q I don't know anything about that. Is that another example of her making up -Yes. -- making up a story?
0044 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Q Yes, sir. When you used to hang out with her, did you
ever see her -- I mean, obviously, she drank. A Q drugs? A No, sir. She barely -- and she barely drank. Yes. Did you ever see her use any other type of
She usually is the one who drove all of us when she did go out. Q A Q That's back when you guys were close? When we were close, yes. Now, I think you may have seen some more
recent photographs. A Q Yes. Were you -- were you in any of those parties
from the pictures like during the time period when -A Not when Caylee was missing. There's one
picture -- there's a set of pictures that people say is a July 4th party. It wasn't a July 4th party. It was from May. It was the end of May. It was around this time. It was Memorial Day weekend. Q And is there another set of pictures that you
don't recognize or you're not sure when they were taken? A Yeah. There's one she's wearing a purple
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dress, I think. I think so. She's wearing a dress.
It's at Fusion. Q All right. Fusion being over there on, what,
Lake Underhill is it or -A I'm not sure where. I know it's behind
Waterford Lakes. I'm not -- I've never been there. I have no clue where it is. Q That wasn't one of the places you frequented
back then? A Q No, I've never been there. And did you find out from your group of
friends or anything that Casey was hanging out there or -A She tried to get me to go out there because
she was doing some kind of promotions for them. Q A Q When was that? June? June, July, yeah. So she was doing promotions for Fusion and
tried to get you to go out there to go to the parties? A Q Yeah, she wanted me to come out. And when she called you or tried to get you to
come out, again, was she acting like she was under distress or -A No, sir.
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-- being directed by somebody to do that? No, sir.
There came the point in time, I guess, it was
around the 15th that all of this first happened. Did Casey ever call you or talk to you after she was arrested? A Q A When she came home from jail. About when was that? If I knew what time when she got out of jail,
I could tell you specifically. Q A Q time? A When she came home from jail the first time. I understand. Before my birthday. When she came home from the jail the first
And then I believe she got arrested in -- she got rearrested for the check charges and then got out of jail again. Q time -A Q Yes. -- kind of take me through this now. Did she So when she came home from jail the first
call you or -A No.
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How was it that you ended up talking to her? I had -- a good friend of mine was the one
making the shirts for Caylee.
Okay. And I had to go pick some of them up on a
Friday for George. He couldn't make it, so he wanted me to go get them from my friend. So I went and got them. They couldn't -- they went out of town. They had something to do. I ended up meeting up with them on a Monday night to get the shirts from them -- or, you know, get the shirts to them. And I had been going through something, and me and Cindy and George were just talking, and I was like, you know, this is one of those times that I would need Casey and I can't have her. And they said, well, get in the car. We'll take you to her. Q A Q And where did they take you? To the house. When you saw her in the house, did the two of
you have a conversation at that point? A Q A Yes. Tell me about it. She just -- we just kind of caught up a little
bit, talked about my stuff. I asked how she was doing.
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She -- she had told me that -- I wish I remember word for word. Just that everything -- that Caylee was -- because it was before Caylee's second birthday -- or third birthday; and that Caylee was going to be home before her
third birthday; and that she knew she was going to be home before her third birthday; and that Caylee was close. She's like, you know, when this is said and done, I have so much to tell you. Q What did you think of that in the context of
what was going on? A I didn't want to know anything because I
wouldn't want to be put in a situation where I'm the person who knows, so I kind of just left it at that and that's -Q Did you get the impress -- when she said --
when you said you wouldn't want to know or didn't want to know, did you get the impression that Casey might have -was going to tell you something that -A At that point, no. Like I didn't think she
was going to say anything to me at that point, but I think that she wanted to talk to me. Q Because, again, this was somebody that
confided in you? A Yes.
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Q A Q
And you'd confided in her? Yes. Now, how about this when she was saying that
she knew that Casey was going to be -- sorry -- that Caylee was going to be home by her third birthday? Did
you ask her about that in light of the fact that she's missing? A Again, I didn't -- I didn't really want to get
into it with her. I mean, it's just one of those things that I -- I had so many questions I could have asked her. Q A Right. Understood. And I just -- for my safety, I just didn't --
I didn't ask anything. Q Did she at that point ever say to you, well,
this Zanny the nanny has her or took her? A Q No. So here now she's home from jail. You know
she's already told the police about the Zanny the nanny. A Q Yes. And you're her best friend. Did she say to
you that? Did she tell you that story? A Q No, sir. Did that seem odd to you in light of what you
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A Q A
That she didn't say someone specific? Yeah. It's all odd. Every bit of it is. Again,
when she would start saying something, I would back out of it. I wouldn't -- I really didn't want to know. I didn't want to be that person that knew everything.
Q A Q
Was it just the two of you at this -Yes. We were in her room talking. And when she said when this is all said and
done, I have so much to tell you, you took that to -A When this was all said and done, she had so
much to tell me. Q Exactly. How long was that conversation you
had with her in her room? A Q A I was with her for a couple hours. You also talked about your situation? My stuff. It's just things that she wanted to
know about her friends, what was going on outside of, you know, the jail. Q Okay. Anything else that she told you at that
point about the circumstances of how her daughter was missing? A She -- no. Like I said, I stayed away from
it. I really -- I told her if there is anything I can do
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for you, you know, let me know, but, again, I didn't want to be that person that knew. Q Now, at this point, though, you had heard the
Zanny story? A Q A Yes. Did you believe it at that point? I believed Caylee was alive until they
confirmed that she wasn't. Q And now in light of everything that you've
learned, what Casey had told you about the nanny, do you believe that to be true? A I think that there was somebody that watched
Caylee. Whether it was male or female, I don't know, but I believe there was somebody that watched Caylee. Q A And why do you say that? Just a gut feeling. There's no reason why,
nothing that anybody said, but I just have a feeling that there's somebody. Q But certainly this Zanny the nanny and her
being a ten, her name being Zenaida Gonzalez, based on what you know and what you've talked to all your friends, do you have any information that that's true? A I have no information about that. I had not
heard that name until it was on the news.
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All right. Now, after that, when you went and
met with her on that day -A Q Yes. -- did you talk to -- first of all, we'll talk
with Case -- and we'll talk about the other folks as well, George and Cindy and Lee, but did you ever talk to Casey again after you met with her in person on that day? A Yeah. We -- we would talk. She would text me
from her mom's phone or from her dad's phone just saying little things, you know, hey, hang in there. Q A good. Q Okay. And during that either the text How about a face-to-face conversation? I saw her again before she went to jail for
messages or the time when you saw her again before she went to jail for good, did she ever talk to you about Zanny the nanny? A Q No, sir. Anything about that, about the abduction of
her child? A Q A Q No, sir. About Blanchard Park? No, sir. Did you ever hear anything about that?
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I know she used to run at Blanchard. But did she ever tell you that this Zanny
person had taken her kid away to punish her, to teach her a lesson? A No. She did say that whoever had her child,
they were telling her to say everything that she said. Q A Q She told you that, then? She told me that. When did she tell you that?
A her. Q A
When she was out of jail the first time I saw
Back this first -When she was first out of jail before Caylee's
third birthday. Q So when she first got out of jail, she was
comfortable enough to tell you that somebody was telling her -- telling her -A Q A Q A To say what she said, yes. I mean, did she expand on that at all? Again, I -Did that seem odd? I didn't want to know. I really, really,
really didn't want to know. Q Did that seem like something that was
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realistic to you? A Q I -- no, but, I mean, I don't know. That next time that you saw her, were there
more conversations about what? A That was less involved with Caylee than the
first visit. Q A What was it involving? We just hung out. I mean, me, her and her mom
hung out. George was at work. We hung out, watched a movie.
When -- you know, you told us before about the
group of friends had gotten together to put together a time line. A Q Yes. Was that before she came home from jail the
first time? A Yes. I mean, this was right after she had
gotten arrested. Q Now, did you ever talk with George or Cindy or
Lee, any one of them again about the things you had talked to about during that time line? A Q Several times. And tell me, did the name Zanny the nanny ever
come up with them?
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No. First of all, with Cindy, I mean, how many
times -- how often would you talk to her about where Caylee might have been? A I would talk to them on a fairly daily basis
until my name got drug into things, and then I quit talking to them. Q All right. I'm going to get to that in just a
second about your name being brought in, but when you talked to them on a daily basis, meaning George or Cindy, did they ever again say, hey, we've got to find this
Zanny or Zenaida -A Q No. -- because Zenaida took our child or
grandchild? A Q No. Never heard that? And when -- I guess you
were involved a little bit in the search as well? A Q Yes. And during all that time period, did you ever
have any conversations with George, Cindy or Lee about Zanny the nanny or Zenaida? A Just it was basically all three of them asked,
you know, did you know this person? Do you know who this
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person could be? Is this this person's name? You know, who is this person? They all asked once, and after I said no, it kind of was dropped. Q But you never heard them again talking amongst
themselves about a game plan to find Zenaida? A Q A Not that I can remember. Now, when you see -Besides one of the times -- I know for sure
one of the times that we met up and talked that we tried to figure out if it was somebody else. Q Now, did you ever see the investigators that
they had hired or meet them?
A Q A
The private investigators? Right. I went to one of the vigils, a couple of the
vigils at their house, in front of their house, and they were there, so obviously, I apparently have seen them, but who they were, I -Q Did they ever come up to you and interview as
the best friend of Casey -A Q A Q No. -- about trying to find this person -No. -- who was the baby-sitter?
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A Q A Q
No. Never did that? No, sir. Now, when you say your name was dragged into
it, tell me what you mean by that, that your name being dragged -A Q A Q A Q time? Instant message. The instant message -Yeah. -- about the Xanax? Yes. Did Lee actually call you at some point in
A Q A
Yes. And what was that? Lee called you and -Lee called me after Melina had been
interviewed by the sheriff's office. Q A Q A His girlfriend? No. Melina is one of Casey's friends from -I'm sorry. Melina was one of Casey's friends from middle
school. And Melina had called Lee and told Lee -- she had told Lee about the interview saying that they were asking Melina if she knew that I sold drugs or that I did
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drugs. And Lee just told me, you know, tell them tell the truth. If you know anything, tell them. You know, they're going to talk to you. They're going to want to talk to you. Just tell them the truth. Q And so that's when -- do you know how that --
how that all came into it? Was it the instant message? A Yes. I'm assuming that's what they asked
Melina. They asked Melina about the instant message because they asked her if she knew that I sold drugs or anything. Q A Q Again, that's all -Completely untrue. Did Cindy -- or did you ask Casey at any time
about the chloroform? Do you remember that?
Yeah, I did the first time we were over there.
I did ask her that. I was like, you know, Casey -Q A Tell me about that. What is it they're saying about the
chloroform, you know, in your car? What is it? She said they're cleaning supplies in the back of my car, which I believe because that family cleans 24/7. Like everything they have is spotless, and it wouldn't surprise me if there was cleaning supplies, something in the back of her car. There always was.
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And she just said, you know, that there was cleaning supplies back there, whatever chloroform is, whatever it's made up. I think it's ammonia and bleach because I didn't know what it was. I looked it up on the Internet. Q As far as the -- did the conversation ever
come up with George or Cindy or Lee about the smell from the car? Did you ever -A Q A news. Q Right. But what they said to you in any of I've never talked to them about that. Never heard them say that? No. On the news -- just the recordings on the
these conversations? A I've never talked to them about that.
Did Casey ever explain it or say anything to
you about that -A Q A Q No. -- when you talked to her? No. I saw something in the interview, and I just
want to follow up on it as well about Casey catching Cindy with the e-mails or being on the computer. Do you remember that?
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A Q A
(Nods head.) Is that something you saw or something you -I was there -- I think it was the second time
I was there. She had -- Cindy had signed an e-mail "Case." That's what Casey signed everything, Case. And Cindy was acting like Casey talking to somebody who said they had a lead about Caylee, and she had signed an e-mail Case, like she was -- like Casey was writing it, and Casey kind of freaked out about it. Q A Was that something you saw or observed? I heard it. I was in the living room. They
were in the computer room. Q You heard them yelling. So it's my
understanding you had -- when you're saying freaked out, be a little bit more -- tell me what happened. A She screamed and yelled at her.
What kind of things was she saying? You're an idiot. You're stupid. What do you
think you're doing? Things like that. Q A Q And what was Cindy's response? Trying to find Caylee. When they were -- when you were there and you
heard those guys interacting or talking, did you ever hear them talking about Zanny or --
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A Q A Q
No. -- anything like that? No. I just want to make sure, in my mind, after
she was arrested the first time, it looks like you met with her twice -A Q A Q A Q Yes. -- in person? Yes. Is that right? Uh-huh. And then you said you would get text messages
on George or Cindy's phone. How would you know it was her? A I would just -- things that somebody my age
would say versus something her parents would say. Q I gotcha. How about the e-mails or instant
messages? A Q A Never. I never got those. After she'd been arrested? She would send me text messages. She could
from her Instant Messenger could text message my phone and she would say thinking of you, love you, be strong, be careful.
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Anything else about this, her either being
directed about what to say or anything else about the nanny? A Q A Q No, sir. No mention of that? Just that one time. Let me kind of clarify something else. I
guess you got a traffic ticket at some point in time? A Q I've had a couple. Was there one around Memorial Day last year or
May 24th or so? A Q Of last year? Yeah. I'm just looking at some things here.
That you got, I guess, a traffic ticket. A The last one I got was a speeding ticket and
seat belt violation. Q A Right. That's the one. When it was I don't know. I know where I was,
but -Q A Q A Q Was anybody with you? No. You were by yourself? I was by myself. So traffic ticket and speeding violation. And
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was Casey around following you? A I was actually talking on the phone to her,
ironically. But I don't think it was last year. I think it's been a year. Q A Q Oh, has it? A good year. That may be. I'm just -- I'm just trying to
say when you -- that you actually got a seat belt -A I got a couple speeding and seat belt
violations. One was on Moss Park Road and one was on Curry Ford. Q Do you know if Casey ever used a fake ID or
had a fake ID? A Q she -A Q A After she was 21. After she's of drinking age? Yeah, I -- I don't -Not to my knowledge. Because I guess you would have known her after
So you didn't hang out with her back in high
school when she might have had a fake ID? A No. We didn't socialize outside of high
school. MR. DILL: Let's take a break for a second.
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 1:58. We'll go off the record. (A 2-minute recess was had.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:00. We are back on record. EXAMINATION BY MR. MITNIK: Q Okay. I've got just a few follow-up
questions. When you were describing the situation where after Cindy had -- I'm sorry -- after Casey had gotten out of jail and she caught her mom signing her name to e-mail or a text or something -A Q Yes. -- you said she screamed at her and said
you're an idiot and you're stupid. Was that, from your experience between her relationship with Cindy, a pretty volatile relationship? A Q What do you mean? I mean, I guess I never screamed at my mom or
dad and said you're -A Q A And I didn't either. -- an idiot or stupid. And I told her that is no way to talk to your
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mother. Q A Q How was Cindy reacting when she did that? She just accepted it. Was it your impression either from your
experience with her or from that interaction that that was not out of the ordinary that she would talk to her mom that way? A I don't think it was normal. To me, Cindy
doesn't seem the type of person who would stand for that, especially from her child. I don't think that she would stand for that, but given the situation, I know -- I mean, I'm not a mom. I'm not a grandma. But I think at that point I would do anything, listen to anything that it would take to get my grandchild back, get my child back. Q Had you -- in the past when there were -- for
example, you said there was an ongoing battle between Cindy and Casey over the issue of Cindy kind of overstepping her bounds playing mother as opposed to letting Casey be the mother. Do you know in those situations, when they
would battle over it, whether it would escalate? A Not to my knowledge. I mean, Casey had never
said to me my mom, you know, touched me or my dad touched
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me. You know, they never -- I don't know of anything that's ever happened. Q Well, actually, that's part of the question.
Not just physical, but do you know whether they hollered each other and got hot even if it -A Q I never witnessed it besides that one time. Over the phone when this ongoing -- how long a
period of time do you think the ongoing battle went on? A I think her whole life. I think Caylee's
whole life. Q Caylee's whole life Cindy would -- is it fair
to characterize the way Casey would describe to you that her mom was acting like she was really the mom of Caylee and that was upsetting to her, like overstepping her bounds? Rather than just being the grandma, you're stepping on my toes as the mother; is that fair? A I wouldn't say that it was always like that.
Again, I was very rarely around Cindy, Casey and Caylee all at the same time. Q When it happened, was that -- is that a fair
characterization what -A Yes.
-- she would be -- what Casey would be griping
to you about on the phone?
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Yes. You said other times she would call, Casey
would call you and talk about she was in a fight with her, an argument with Cindy. What other kind of things did they have problems with? A Her wanting to move out, not registering for
school. That's what she told me. Q A Q And "she" being Casey? Casey, yes. And Casey would -- in other words, Casey would
tell you that she was in an argument with her mom because her mom did not want her to move out and Casey wanted to move out? A Q Yes. And why -- why wouldn't her mother want her to
move out? What was Casey telling you? Was it over Caylee? A Yeah, I'm assuming that's what it was. I
don't remember exactly, but my -- my assumption would be that because then Cindy would never see Caylee. Cindy or George, for that matter. Q While you don't remember the specific word for
word, is it fair the gist of what you recall about it was
Cindy didn't want Casey to move out because -- because of
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her wanting to have Caylee in the home? A Q Yes. How about you had said also she had called --
if I heard right -- that she had -- there were times that Cindy would call and she'd be having arguments with her dad, George. What would they argue about? A Q You mean Casey call? I'm sorry. I said Cindy. When Casey would
call that she would also have arguments with her dad George. Do you remember what that would be about? A They just didn't get along, from what Casey
told me. She -- I don't remember her ever saying anything specific. She would say that her parents were getting a divorce. They were fighting. And her dad -she would just say her dad was just hateful, you know, just not nice to her. Q A To her? To Casey. But never anything specific. She
was more specific about the arguments with her mom. Q And the stuff about George being hateful, was
that kind of an ongoing deal to? A Q her? Not so -- not so much. When she -- how often would you hear that from
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I think I maybe heard that twice, three times,
maybe. Q A Q What about her relationship with Lee? They were like best of friends. Just going back for a minute about when you
went over to the house with some of the other group of friends while Casey was in jail and you were kind of trying to piece together who this baby-sitter could be or where she could be and Cindy was there. A Q Yes. At any time during that gathering, did Cindy
say anything about indicating, well, I know the baby-sitter's for real because -A Q No. -- because Caylee would talk about Zanny's
puppy or dog, anything like that? A No. The one thing Cindy did say is that there
was a list, a list of items that she found on a piece -like on a notepad that had -- like if you were packing for like the beach or something, that had like those kind of items, like things you need to get at the store, you know, juice and Caylee's favorite snacks. What they -- I don't remember what they were, but those were on the list, and like things that Caylee would need if Caylee was going to the beach. And I think she had mentioned
0069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that there was like a dog leash, dog bone, dog treats, something like that on the list as well. Q Now, this list that Cindy told you about,
would that have been during this meeting we were just talking about? A Q She had mentioned it, yes. Was it something that she had found recently,
in other words, indicating it looked like she was packing up to go to the beach when we last saw her now that I've seen the list? A I think she just found the list. I don't know
if she knew when it was from, though. Q Was the context of her bringing it up she may
have been planning to go to the beach when she was last here? A Like Casey was planning to go to the beach.
She wanted us to go to the beach and like put fliers around and stuff. Q So she thought that was a lead as to
potentially where Caylee was? A Q Yes. In the conversation that you actually had with
Casey after she got out of jail, I heard you say that when she would start to talk about any of the kind of
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hotter issues about what was going on, you would back up.
You didn't want to be getting information. A Q No. Can you remember the things, again, not exact
words, but the gist of times that she would start into a subject where you would back out of it what those things that she would start to bring up were? A I've mentioned them. The trunk, the
chloroform in the trunk. Her saying, you know, when all this is said and done I have so much to tell you, and that someone had been telling her to say what she's been saying, but nothing more than that that I can remember. Q And when she said someone's been telling her
to say what she's saying, say what she's saying about what? A Everything. I'm assuming that -- I'm assuming
she meant everything. Q Did she act scared or what was the setting? I
mean, what was her demeanor when she's telling you that? A She did seem a little like on edge, I guess,
you could say. She wouldn't like sit near her window. She would not sit near her window at all. She didn't want me to sit near her window. But that's really like the weirdest thing to me.
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And when she said someone was telling her to
say everything she said, she didn't give any indication
who? A Q Again, it's "they." And when she said -- but it was a plural
"they"? A Q Yeah. And it wasn't in any way, shape or form a
Zenaida Gonzalez? A Q A Q That name was not said. Or Zanny the nanny or anything like that? That name was not said. And when she said that she believed Caylee
would be home by her third birthday, did she say anything else about why she thought that? A Q A Q Just a gut feeling. Did she say that or is that -(Nods head.) She said it's a gut feeling she'll be there by
her birthday? A Q A Q (Nods head.) Nothing else? Nothing else. And then on the she said she thought she was
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close, was it your impression she meant close geographically? A That was what I took from it, yes.
And what led you to think that? Nothing specific. Just I wouldn't -- I
wouldn't know what, you know, what other way she was talking. Q Did she -- as she said I have a gut feeling
that she'll be home by her third birthday, did she give you any reason why she thought she was close -A Q A No. -- or say gut feeling or anything like that? No, no. In her heart -- in her heart she
knows. In her gut she knows. But it was just a feeling. Q A That she's close? It wasn't anything concrete like this is the
reason why. Q What was at this time when she's now home from
jail the relationship with her and Cindy? Is it tense? Is it real warm? How would you describe it? A That first time I just went over there and I
spent time with Casey. I didn't -- I mean, I had seen George and Cindy and they took me back to my car, but I spent my -- the entire time I was there with Casey.
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The second time Cindy was there that one little tiff and that was it. Q A Rest of the time how were they? Fine.
How about were you ever there after she got
out of jail when George was there? A I don't think -- I know George came home that
night that I had stayed the night there, but we were sleeping. Q A So you didn't see any interaction? I don't -- I don't -- I don't remember seeing
anything, interaction. Q From talking to any of your other friends,
were you able to piece toge -- did anyone else see her or have information about where she was out and about during that about 30 days that -A Q A None of my friends, no. -- Caylee was missing? I know that a group of my friends they all
went out to Ale House one night, from what I've read, what I've heard, that Casey had stopped by, but I don't know when that was. It was between those time periods. Q If I want to find out any more about that, do
you have any names of people that would have been there?
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I know Casey was there. I don't know why they
went up there because I guess that was the day that she saw Jeff Hopkins, the guy that went to high school with, but I don't know who was there. I don't even know why they were there. I know I wasn't there. That's all I
know. Q All right. Now, she had got a kind of new
group of friends at some point? A Q A Yes. About when would that have been? Well, after -- the beginning of 2008 -- I
would feel confident saying the beginning of 2008. I don't know when she started dating Ricardo. As soon as she started dating Ricardo, she hung out with them a lot. And then from Ricardo's group of friends, she went to dating Tony. Q Now, everyone's seen because you can't turn
the TV on and not see a whole bunch of party pictures with her and people's hands on her and hanging over a toilet and, you know, it looks like a big wild party scene. A Q Those are like four different occasions. There -- I guess my question is do you know
that -- after your group, it sounds like that would not
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have been an accurate portrayal or kind of day-to-day life when her when she ran with your group? A Well, the one of her hanging over the toilet
was her 21st birthday. It was her 21st birthday. The one of her in the American flag was Memorial Day last year, so this was all before any of this happened.
The pictures -- the other ones, I don't know when those were taken, her dancing in boots. I don't know when those were taken because I wasn't there. Q But I guess what I'm getting at is do you know
whether or did you hear through any of your friends that when she started hanging out with the new group, that it was a wilder crowd or she had turned some corner and gotten wilder or do you know? A I don't think that Casey's ever been wild,
not -- not around me she hasn't been. Like I said, when she went out with me, she most of the time drove. Q That's what I'm getting at. It sounds like --
I get the description of when you hung out with her. And what I'm trying to get is once the switch and she hung out with a new group of friends, do you know one way or the other if she changed some. A I heard that she had smoked pot for the first
time and that that's what that group of friends did, but
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I can't -Q A Q A So it was a little bit more --- confirm that. -- of a party group in that regard? I guess. I don't know. I don't know them. I
don't know what they do. I don't know where they go. I don't know where they hang out.
Q in. A
Do you know -- and I don't you dragging people
That's -- I don't want to say something about
people that I don't know. I don't know for sure. Q If you would rather not, it's okay, but I'll
ask you, if you don't mind, who you heard that from? A Q A I have no clue. You don't remember who it was? Whether it was people's statements that I've
read online, I -- you know, I don't know. Q That's fine. I don't want to put you in an
uncomfortable position anyhow. MR. MITNIK: That's all I have unless you have something. MR. DILL: Just one more, actually, quick follow-up on something you just said. EXAMINATION
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BY MR. DILL: Q Jeff Hopkins, you were friends with him from
high school? A Q A Q A I knew him, yes. Do you know if he has a kid named Zachary? Not that I know of. So the Jeff Hopkins -Not that I know of.
-- and Zachary and kids were playing together,
you never heard about that? A Q A That it being true? Yeah. No, I don't know that that is true, but she
would say that somebody she worked with who she got the baby-sitter from also baby-sat someone she works with kids. A specific name of that person I don't know. Q A no. Q was? A A guy named Eric that got into a car accident And did she ever tell you who Caylee's father This wasn't Jeffrey Hopkins or Jeff Hopkins? Not the one that I went to high school with,
the Sunday of Caylee's second birthday party and died. Q And you never met this person?
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A Q A Q A
No. And Eric who? (Witness shrugs.) I don't know. Was he in the military or -He lived, I want to say, in Georgia she said.
He wasn't too far. He wasn't in the state of Florida but wasn't too far. He had a wife and another child, a brother, I think. Q Did she date -- I mean, was that her boyfriend
or was it just kind of a -A From what I understand, it was like a
one-night-stand type thing. Like they were friends and they just hooked up and she got pregnant. Q But then, apparently, she said this person was
killed in a car wreck? A Q A Q That's what she told me. Do you know if he ever met Caylee? I don't believe so. When did those conversations take place about
who the father was? A She had called me the Monday after Caylee's
second birthday party upset because she said Eric, you know, Eric, Caylee's father, he died in a car accident. She had like a memorial thing on like her Myspace or
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something, you know, rest in peace or whatever. And she was very, very upset about it, but that's -- I had asked her because I had thought Jesse was the father, and she said, no, he wasn't. It was just a friend that she had hooked up with. Q Based on the married and had a kid thing, was
it your understanding that at the time of their relationship that he was married and had a kid? A No, I don't think so. I think that he had met
his -- the way that Casey said that he had met the now
wife -- yeah, I think she said that they got married after they had the kid. That she had gotten pregnant and that's why they got married. Q Any idea who -- do you know if he -- did she
tell you or do you know if he knew he was the dad? A Q A Q A Q I believe he was aware of it -Did he --- but never met -Caylee, never paid support, to your knowledge? No. Did she ever talk about anybody paying child
support for Caylee? A Q No, sir. Any mention from her as to, you know, why she
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didn't make this person who was the father of her child pay or do support? A Nope, no reason why. I mean, she never -- she
never really talked about it. Q Did you ever -- as being her best friend, did
that ever come up, especially when she was -- if there were financial issues? A Q A I never knew there were financial issues. Right. She always had money. MR. DILL: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 2:18. We are off the record. (The proceedings were concluded at 2:18 p.m.)
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0081 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of June, 2009. __________________________________________ LAURA J. LANDERMAN, R.M.R., C.R.R., F.P.R. 11 Notary Public, State of Florida at Large CERTIFICATE OF OATH STATE OF FLORIDA COUNTY OF ORANGE: I, LAURA J. LANDERMAN, R.M.R., C.R.R., F.P.R., certify that ANNIE DOWNING personally appeared before me on the 21st day of May, 2009, and was duly sworn.
Commission No. DD 485623 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0082 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ----CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER STATE OF FLORIDA: COUNTY OF ORANGE: I, LAURA J. LANDERMAN, R.M.R., C.R.R., F.P.R., do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the deposition of ANNIE DOWNING; that the review of the transcript was not requested; and that the foregoing transcript, pages 1 through 82, Commission Expires: Feb. 20, 2010
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
inclusive, are a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorneys or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the outcome of the action.
DATED this 4th day of June, 2009. 18 19 ___________________________________________ 20 21 22 23 24 25 LAURA J. LANDERMAN, R.M.R., C.R.R., F.P.R.