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Genders291999

MasculinityWithoutMen
AnnamarieJagoseinterviewsJudithHalberstam AboutHerLatestBook,FemaleMasculinity
Note:Clickoneachimagetoseeanenlargementofit.

C l i c k h e r e f o r a t e x t o n l y v e r s i o n o

[1]JAGOSE:Thecriticalefficacyofthephrase "femalemasculinity"obviouslyderives,inlarge part,fromitsflauntingofitsoxymoroniceffect. YetpostButlerandthenearuniversalcritical, politicalandsubculturalmobilisationofher understandingthatgenderisperformative thereisanothersenseinwhichtheassaulton thecoherenceoflongreifiedgender oppositionsimplicitinyournotionof"female masculinity"seemsalmostinevitable,a necessarymomentinlatetwentiethcentury theorisingofgenderandallitentails.Howdid theconceptoffemalemasculinityevolveforyou asacriticalterm?

[2]HALBERSTAM:"FemaleMasculinity" f emergedformeasatermthatwasimplicitin manydifferentdiscussionsofgender,genderperformativity,constructivismandso th onbutwasnevernamedassuch.InmybookIactuallyarguethatdespiteanalmost e universalconcurrencethatfemalenessdoesnotautomaticallyproducefemininity a andmalenessdoesnotproducemasculinity,veryfewpeopleseemedtobenoticing r orthinkingthroughthematerialeffectsofdisassociatingsexandgenderandthishas t i beenparticularlytrueinthesphereofmasculinity.Sincefemininitysignifiesin c generalastheeffectofartifice,astheessenceof"performativity"(ifperformativity l e canbesaidtohaveanessence),wehaveaneasiertimeunderstandingitas transferable,mobile,fluid.Butmasculinityhasanaltogetherdifferentrelationto C performance,therealandthenaturalanditappearstobefarmoredifficulttopry o p masculinityandmalenessapartthanfemininityandfemaleness. [3]JAGOSE:Someofyourambitionforfemalemasculinityasaconcept,then, comesfromyoursensethatitmightusefullyshakeupthecomplacencyofthat pigeonpair,femininityandmasculinity?
y r i g h t

[4]HALBERSTAM:Theterm"femalemasculinity"stagesseveraldifferentkindsof 1 interventionsintocontemporarygendertheoryandpractice.First,itchallengesthe 9 9 notionthatgendersaresymmetricalinotherwordssayingthatgenderis 9 "performative"maybeparticularlyhelpfulwhenthinkingaboutfemininitybutless A usefulinrelationtomasculinity.Masculinity,infact,oftenpresentsasnon n performativeorantiperformative(thinkofClintEastwood'slaconicrolesfor n example).Second,femalemasculinitydisruptscontemporaryculturalstudies accountsofmasculinitywithinwhichmasculinityalwaysboilsdowntosomethinglike K i "thesocial,culturalandpoliticaleffectsofmaleembodimentandmaleprivilege."I b hopemybookwillforcemasculinitystudiestomakearadicalbreakfromwhitemen's b e studies.InthisrespectIseemyworkintersectingwithworkonqueermasculinitiesof y
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colorbyPhilipBrianHarper,JoseMunozandothers.Third,femalemasculinity namesadisruptivecurrentinthehistoryoffeminismandlesbianism.Feminismin someofitsformsinthe1970'smarkedoutaterrainofoutlawedbehaviorusingthe B term"maleidentified."Thistermusuallymeant"heterosexualwomenwhoidentified a c throughorwiththeirmalepartners"andbutchlesbianswhowerenot"women k identifiedwomen"but"menidentifiedwomen."Theeffectoftheterm"male t identified"Ibelievewastopunishthemostvisibleandoutgaywomenfortheir o masculinityandsetupfeminismasthestudyoffemininity.Thehistoryoffemale : masculinityforthisreasononlyslightlyoverlapswiththehistoryoflesbianfeminism; itismoreproperlyahistoryofmaleidentifiedwomen.InmybookIbeginthishistory withthenineteenthcenturygentlewomanAnnLister,acrossidentifiedwomanwho wroteextensivejournalsaboutherdesiresandidentificationsandIcontinuethis historythroughRadclyffeHall,sexologicalstudiesofinverts,1950'sstonebutches and1990'sdragkings.Thishistoryisnotexactlyalesbianhistory,inasmuchas "lesbian"asamarkerreferstothehistoryofwomenidentifiedwomen.Ibelieveother workcurrentlyinprogressbyLisaDuggan,LauraDoanandotherswilladdtothese "other"nonlesbianhistoriesofsamesexnineteenthandtwentiethcenturydesire.1 [5]JAGOSESo,ifyouruseoffemalemasculinitymakesscrupulousdistinctions betweenhistoricalcategorieswhichhavetended,inlesscarefulhands,tobe recuperatedforthehistoryoflesbianism,isittobeanticipatedthatinyouraccounts ofcontemporaryculturefemalemasculinitygoesoncomplicatingandfinetuning currentunderstandingsofgenderedandsexualpossibilities? [6]HALBERSTAM:Yes:thegenesisofmythinkingthroughandaboutfemale masculinityprobablycamefromsomedesireintheearly1990'stomarkaplacefor crossidentifyingwomenwhichdidnotfoldneatlyintocommunityandmedical modelsoftranssexuality.AsFemaleToMaletranssexualsbecamemorenumerous andmorevisibleinurbanqueercommunities,therewasinevitablyareshufflingof categoriesandetiologies.Youngpeoplecomingoutinthisdecademaybeforgiven fornotquiteknowingwhattheirexperiencesofcrossidentificationmaymean.If "lesbian"inthiscontextbecomesthetermforwomenwhoexperiencethemselvesas femaleanddesireotherwomenandif"FTMtranssexual"becomesthetermfor femalebornpeoplewhoexperienceprolongedmaleidentificationandthinkof themselvesasmale,thenwhathappenstothosefemalebornpeoplewhothinkof themselvesasmasculinebutnotnecessarilymaleandcertainlynotfemale?Wedo usetheterm"butch"forthislastcategorybutItrytoextendthetermbutchbeyond its1950'scontextanditsinevitablecouplingwith"femme"andIlocateitinalarger terrainfemalemasculinity.Mythinkinginthisareahasbeenimmeasurably enrichedbyreadingtheworkofFTMtheoristslikeJacobHaleandJayProsser. Prosser'sbook,SecondSkins:TheBodyNarrativesofTranssexuals,isverymuchin dialoguewithmywork.2 [7]HALBERSTAMForme,thetermfemalemasculinityalsorecordswhatcanonly becalleda"taxonomicalimpulse."Mybookarguesforgreatertaxonomical complexityinourqueerhistories.UnlikeatheoristlikeButlerwhoseescategoriesas perpetuallysuspect,Iembracecategorizationasawayofcreatingplacesforacts, identitiesandmodesofbeingwhichotherwiseremainunnamable.Ialsothinkthat theproliferationofcategoriesoffersanalternativetothemundanehumanistclaim thatcategoriesinhibittheuniqueselfandcreatesboxesforanotherwiseindomitable spirit.Peoplewhodon'tthinktheyinhabitcategoriesusuallybenefitfromnotnaming theirlocation.Itrytooffersomenewnamesforformerlyuninhabitablelocations.In fact,myinspirationfortaxonomizingcomesfromEveSedgwick'sintroductionto EpistemologyoftheClosetwheresheoffersupalistofwaysthatpeoplecouldmap sexualitiesanddesires.Herlistrefusesthebanalityofthehomoheterobinaryand suggeststhatwearelimitednotsimplybythelawbutbyafailureoftheimagination. Ihopemyworkcanhelptoreimaginethecomplexsetofrelationsbetweensexuality,

gender,raceandclass.3 [8]JAGOSE:Certainlyyourrecentworkhasbeenrevisitingperhapsinsome importantsense,reinventingcategoriesofgenderedidentity.Thisseemstomea provocativecriticalmovesincemanyqueertheoristsand,arguably,themost resistanteffectsofqueeritselfareworkingagainstidentificatorytaxonomies, perhapsparticularlythosesexualtaxonomiesallegedlystitchedupbygender.Iread yourworkonfemalemasculinityasbeinginsympathywiththedenaturalising gesturesattheheartofthosequeerprojects.Yetopposingwhatyoucharacteriseas amundanehumanism,yousay,inanidiomnotmuchheardthesedays,"Iembrace categorization."Iaminterestedinthisembraceofyours,thewayinwhichitresists theincreasinglyspookyassumptionthatrecoursetocategoriesofselforcategories ofgenderedembodimentarenecessarilyboundtoessentialistorconservative projects.Yetitseemstomethatthenearcriticalconsensusonthisrestsnotonthe humanistprinciplesthatyouindexherebutthemoreplausiblepostFoucaldian axiomthatcategoriesofidentificationaremostbanallyintheserviceofthe technologiesofregulation.Isthisdistinctionregisteredinyourarticulationofnew "acts,identitiesandmodesofbeing"inrelationtofemalemasculinity? [9]HALBERSTAM:Thisisobviouslyacomplicatedquestionbutitdoesregister importantconcernsaboutatacticof"productiveclassification."Ofcourse,asyou say,queertheoryhasbeenmuchpreoccupiedwiththerelationshipbetweenidentity andregulation;postFoucault,asyousuggest,werecognizethattoembrace identitiescansimplyformpartofareversediscoursewithinwhichmedically constructedcategoriesarelenttheweightofrealnessbypeople'swillingnessto occupythosecategories. [10]HALBERSTAM:However,IthinkthatwehaveallowedthisFoucauldianinsight toredirectdiscussionsofidentificationawayfromthesubjectofcategories themselves.Theterm"reversediscourse"inTheHistoryofSexuality,Vol.1identifies andrejectsthetraditionalformulationsofgayandlesbianpoliticalstruggleas essentiallyoppositional.Sincecertainsexualliberationdiscourses,recapitulatethe verytermsofthehomo/heterobinarywhichoppressusinthefirstplace,thenthese discoursesbecomepartoftheinstallationoftheverysexualhierarchythattheyseek tooppose.However,Foucaultalsounderstandsemancipationstrugglesas strategicallyandhistoricallynecessary;furthermore,a"reversediscourse"isinno waythe"same"asthediscourseitreverses.Indeeditsdesireforreversalisadesire fortransformation.4 [11]HALBERSTAM:Consequently,Idon'tseethepointofsimplyrejectingall reversediscoursesperse(comingout,organizing,producingnewcategories)butI dothinkitislimitedtothinkofthem(comingout,forexample)asendpoints: Foucaultclearlybelievesthatresistancehastogobeyondthetakingofaname("I amalesbian")andmustproducecreativenewformsofresistancebyassumingand empoweringamarginalpositionality. [12]JAGOSE:Sowhatkindofmarginalpositionalitiesareyouthinkingofhere? [13]HALBERSTAM:Well,likeahistoriansuchasGeorgeChauncey,Iamless interestedinexpertproducedcategories("thehomosexual,""theinvert,""the transsexual")andfarmoreinterestedinsexualvernacularsorthecategories producedandsustainedwithinsexualsubcultures.Obviously,aprojectlikethis originateswiththeworkofGayleRubinwhohasspokeneloquentlyaboutthelimits ofexpertdiscoursesonsexuality(likepsychoanalysis)andtheimportanceof questionsof"sexualethnogenesis"ortheformationofsexualcommunities.Ithink scientificdiscourseshavetendedtonarrowourabilitytoimaginesexualityand genderotherwiseandingeneralthediscussionsthattakeplaceinmedical

communitiesaboutembodimentanddesiremaybewaybehindthediscussions takingplaceonemaillists,insupportgroupsandinsexclubs.Doctorsuse categoriesinverydifferentwaysTHANpeoplecruisingforasexualpartneruse categories.Ithinkweshouldtakeovertheprerogativeofnamingour EXPERIENCESandidentifications.5 [14]HALBERSTAM:Nowherehasthisbeenclearer inrecentyearsthaninrelationtotheexperiencewe call"transgendered."Transgenderisforthemostpart avernaculartermdevelopedwithingender communitiestoaccountforthecrossidentification experiencesofpeoplewhomaynotacceptthe protocolsandstricturesoftranssexuality.Such peopleunderstandcrossidentificationasacrucial partoftheirgenderedselfbuttheymaypickand chooseamongtheoptionsofbodymodification, socialpresentationandlegalrecognitionavailableto them.So,youmayfindthatatransgendermaleisa femalebornsubjectwhohashadnosex reassignmentsurgery,takestestosterone(withor withoutmedicalsupervision)andlivesasaman mostlybutisrecognizedbyhiscommunityasa transgenderedmaninparticular.Inthiscontext,the term"transgender"refusesthestabilitythattheterm"transsexual"mayoffertosome folksandembracesmorehybridpossibilitiesforembodimentandidentification.At thesametime,Ithinktheterm"transsexual"isundergoingreconstructionbypublicly identifiabletranssexualslikeKateBornstein.Inotherwords,transsexualisnotsimply theconservativemedicaltermtotransgender'stransgressivevernacular;rather,both transsexualandtransgendershiftandchangeinmeaningandapplicationinrelation toeachotherratherthaninrelationtoahegemonicmedicaldiscourse.6 [15]HALBERSTAM:Finally,ifweproducedifferentcategories,peopleareforcedto usethemandwidespreaduseofthesecategoriesdoesutterlychangethelandscape ofgenderpolitics.LastnightonmainstreamcableTVat10pm,forexample,I watchedanexcellentshowcalled"TheTransgenderRevolution."Thisprogram beganintheusualwaywithasensationalistintroductionpittingthoseweirdtrannies againsttherestof"us,"butastheprogramturneditsattentiontotransgender subjects(someofwhomwereeasilyidentifiableastranssexualratherthan transgender),thefocusshiftedandthenarrativechanged.Maletofemale transsexualNancyNangeronidiscussedherdecisiontotakeestrogen,liveasa womanbutnothavegenitalreconstructionsurgeryandshespokeinmovingways aboutbeinghybrid.Theeffectofthese"reallives"wastofleshoutthecategory "transgender"inwaysthatalteredthemeaningofmasculinityandfemininity profoundlyandalsoshiftedtheemphasisawayfromthestrangenessoftransgender bodiesandtowardsthepeculiarityofgenderhatecrimes.7 [16]JAGOSE:Maybeoneofthethingsworthnotinghereisthewayinwhichthe conceptof"femalemasculinity,"whileaproductivelydisruptivedescriptor,isnotitself anidentificatorycategory.Thatis,Iamassumingunlessyoutellmedifferently thattoexperience"femalemasculinity"asaresonanttermofselfdescriptionisnotto identifywithanythingasformalorcoherentasanidentity.Rather,oneofthevaluable characteristicsoffemalemasculinitymightbeitsabilitytodescribeindifferentand incompletewayssexualsubculturesasdiverseassomeofthoseyou'vementioned already:say,dragkingsandbutches,forexample.Canyougivemesomefulleridea ofthespectrumofactsandidentitiesthatyoupulltogetherundertherubricofa historyoffemalemasculinity?

[17]HALBERSTAM:It'struethat"femalemasculinity"doesnotdescribeanidentity althoughperhapsitdoesofferasiteforidentification.Inmybook,femalemasculinity coversahostofcrossidentifications:tomboys,butches,masculineheterosexual women,nineteenthcenturytribadesandsapphists,inverts,transgenders,stone butchesandsoftbutches,dragkings,cyberbutches,athletes,womenwithbeards, andthelistgoeson. [18]HALBERSTAM:Iusethetermasageneralrubricwhichavoidsthehistorical specificityofatermlike"butch"andallowsforthegroupingtogetherofanumberof differentgenderaffiliationsandexpressionstranshistorically.Inrelationtopre twentiethcenturycrossidentifiedwomen,forexample,theterms"lesbian"and "butch"aresingularlyunhelpful.Ifwearguethatanineteenthcenturymasculine womanwasa"lesbian"weassumethatherdesireandhergenderpresentationwere organizedandrecognizedaccordingtocontemporarymodelsofsexualityand gender.Ifwecallherbutch,weconferuponheravernacularwordthatshewouldnot haveusedandwouldnothavehadaccessto.Furthermore,theassumptionthat suchawomanwas"prelesbian"orlesbianlackingaccesstothelanguageofidentity presumesthatallorganizationsofgenderandsexualityinthepasthavesimply progressedslowlyandinevitablytowardstheorganizationswefavortoday.Ifwe recognizeanineteenthcenturycrossidentifiedwomanwithintherubricof"female masculinity,"wecanthengrapplewiththequestionofwhathermasculinitymayhave meanttoher,toherloversandtohersociety. [19]HALBERSTAM:SinceIunderstandpreciseclassificationaspartandparcelofa projecton"femalemasculinity,"thebooktriestomakeevermoreparticular distinctionsbetweendifferenthistoricalandculturalformsoffemalemasculinity.I alsotrytodiversifythecategory"butch"byrecognizingthatdifferentwomenexpress theirmasculinitiesindifferentwaysandthatvariabilitymayhaveeverythingtodo withsocialclass,ethnicityandsexualorientation. [20]JAGOSE:Yes,youridentificationoffemalemasculinityasadistinct phenomenonisamplifiedbytheverymanywaysinwhichyourbookinsistsonthe nonsynonymityofitsdifferentforms.Soyouvalueacriticalmethodwhichis sensitivetothemeshingsoffemalemasculinitywithaseriesofhistoricallyspecific identificatorycategorieswhilealsomaintainingakeencriticalpressureonfemale masculinity'spersistence,indeedasDelLaGrace'sandCatherineOpie's photographsevidenceonitssheervisibility. [21]HALBERSTAM:Ithinkof"femalemasculinity"as somethingeminentlylegible:peopleaskme repeatedlywhat"masculinity"maymeanintheterm "femalemasculinity"andthemostcommonfollowup questiontothatis:"Well,youcannotjustmean appearance..."Myresponseisusually:"Whatisthe meaningof"just"inthatsentence."Sincewhenis appearanceanegligiblepartofthewaythatpeople circulateandcommunicateintheworld?Whenit comestofemalemasculinity,andIrealizethis soundsridiculouslypostmodern,appearanceis everything.Thatisnottosaythatmasculinewomen donotexperiencetheirmasculinityasadeepor internalidentityeffect;norisittosaythatfemale masculinityisonlyabouthowyoulook.Itistosay thatthe"only"inthatstatementisimpossible. Masculinewomenarerecognizedasmasculinefor longperiodsintheirlives.Theymaycoveruptheirmasculinity,theymayadjustit, theymayflauntitbutpartofwhatitmeanstobeamasculinewomanhastodowith

beingrecognizedasnonfeminineorunwomanly.Tomboys,forexample,partly constructthemselvesasrebelliousorsportygirlsandpartlytheyareconstructed withinthehighlyscrutinizedcontextofchildhoodas"notgirly."WhenIwasyoung,I wasmistakenforaboynearlyeveryday; misrecognitioninthiscontext,Iwouldargue,addsup andeventuallyorevenimmediatelybecomespartof thechild'sownsenseofself.Thetomboymaybea youngpersonforwhommisrecognition(herownand otherpeople's)becomespartofhersenseofself. Therearemanyotherformsofmisrecognitionthatare particulartoidentityformation,somepathological, (theanorexic,forexample,whomisrecognizesher bodyweight)somepleasurable,butfemale masculinitynamesoneparticularoutcome,of repeatedgendermisrecognition. [22]JAGOSE:Iaminterestedinthesenotionsof recognitionandmisrecognitionandthewaysinwhich theyvariouslyreinforceandundermineasenseof genderasauthentic.Assomeonewhoisaccustomedto,butneverthelesseachand everytimesurprisedat,beingtakenforamaninthewomen'stoiletswhatyourefer tomoreeconomicallyinyourbookas"thebathroomproblem"thereseemstometo beanexperientialandperhapsevenausefulcriticaldistinctiontobemadebetween thosemomentswhenfemalemasculinityisactivelymanagedandperformed,asby, say,dragkings,andthosemoments,mostfrequently,asyounote,inthepublic bathroom(butperhapswemightalsoincludeallthoseserviceindustrieswhose measureofprofessionalismisthegenderingoftheirclientinterface:"Adrinkforyou, sir?"),whengenderattributions,perhapsyourown,perhapsradicallyatoddswith howyoumightimagineyourself,kindoftakeyoubysurprise.Canyoutalkalittle aboutthisdistinctioninrelationtotheprocessesofidentityformationyoumentioned earlier? [23]HALBERSTAM:Yes,well,Iguessbeingmistakenforamanintherestroom doesnotreallytakemebysurprise.Itdoestakemebysurprisewhensomeone actuallycallssecurity(ashashappenedquiteoften)butafterallIamnotactively presentingmyselfas"woman"sowhyshouldIberecognizedassuch?Whenoneis youngIthinkmisrecognitioncanbeincrediblydifficulttodealwithitshardtoexplain toyourselfwhenyouhavenolanguageforgendervariance.Butlateron misrecognitionispossiblyaresponsetoone'sactivelymanagedfemalemasculinity. Howdoyoufeelwhenyougetmistakenforaguy?Doyoufeelshamed?Annoyed? Doyouhaveastandardresponse?Doyoueverusethemen'sroom? [24]JAGOSE:Idon'thaveastandardresponse.Ialwaysfeelambushedbythat misrecognition.Iguesstherangeofresponseswhichcertainlyhaveincluded savagerushesofshameandmildermanneredannoyancebutalsoakindof contemptuoussuperiority,towhichIamsureIshouldn'tbeconfessing,anda dizzyingsenseofamusementthatmyeverydayhasopenedupagaintothisstrange encounterthatisalreadyinmyheadturningitselfintoananecdotemapsontothe rangeofhoweverImightbefeelingatthetime. [25]HALBERSTAM:Iaminterestedinyourcommentthatbeingmistakenforaman intherestroomimmediatelybeginstoformananecdoteinyourhead misrecognitionnecessitatesnarrativereally,eitheranarrativewhichcorrectsthe mistake,anarrativewhichnamestheeffectsofgendervarianceoranarrativewhich managestheshameoftheencounter. [26]JAGOSE:Yes,andmaybethefactthatthosenarrativeswouldallbevery

differentintermsoftheireffectallowsmetoreturntowhatIwastryingtogetatwith myearlierquestionaboutmisrecognition.Iwaswonderingwhetheryouhaveasense thatfemalemasculinityworksproductivelyasbothacategoryofselfidentification andacategoryofotherattributionand,moreover,thatattimesitmightnegotiatea gapbetweenone'ssenseofselfandone'spubliclegibilityasgendervariant. [27]HALBERSTAM:Ithinkthatinthepastfemalemasculinityhasactuallytended nottoworkasacategoryofselfidentificationbutassomethingthatawomanmight getcalled"she'samasculinewoman,""she'smannish"thatstopsshortoflesbian. WomenhavebeenidentifiedasmasculineinmostlynegativewaysasEsther Newtonpointedoutin"TheMythicMannishLesbian"themannishwomanismythic becauseomnipresentandtranshistoricalbutalsomythicbecausesheisthe stereotypeagainstwhomallotherlesbiansarejudged.Itrytooccupythecategoryof femalemasculinity,makemyselfathomeinitandmakingithospitabletootherswho havefelteitherleft"outsidebelonging"(asElspethProbynputsit)orwhohavefelt penalizedbytheirmasculinity.8 [28]JAGOSE:YouruseofthemetaphorofhomehereremindsmeofFemale Masculinity'sdiscussionoftheverydifferentmetaphorsofmigrationindiscoursesof transsexuality.Ofcourse,thesubtitleoftherelevantchapter"TransgenderButch: Butch/FTMBorderWarsandtheMasculineContinuum"invokespreciselythe fraughtdisputesthatfollowunderstandingsofidentityasterritorial.Canyououtline whatyouseeasthecentralissuesforthinkingabouttransgender,transsexualand lesbianmasculinities? [29]HALBERSTAM:Letmecommentfirstontheuseofthismetaphoroftheborder. Inoticedafewyearsagothat"borderwars"hademergedasatermtodescribe conflictsbetweenFTM'sandbutchesoverthemeaningoftheirmasculinitiesand theirlifenarratives.ManyFTM'swantedtoinsistthattheirlifenarrativeswere definitivelydifferentthanbutchlifenarrativesandmanybutcheswantedtodenythat differenceinordertosuggestthatthereexistsanelementofchoiceinrelationtothe questionofwhetherornottotransition.Peoplewantedtoidentifytheplacewhere butchidentityorselfrecognitionendedandtranssexualselfdefinitionsbeganand predictably,Ithink,linesweredrawnandcommunitybattlesensued.Borderswere usedmetaphoricallytodescribedifferenceinthecontextoftransitioninglivesbut,of course,using"border"asametaphorhasitslimits.IliveinabordertownSan DiegoandIbegantobetroubledbyparticularlyFTMdiscoursewhichreferenced coming"home"toone'sgenderand"crossingover"fromfemaletomale.These referencesto"home"and"belonging,"Ithought,tookplaceasifdebatesabouthome andbelonginghadnotalreadyragedelsewhereinrelationtopostcolonial discussionsofmigrationandglobaleconomies.WhenFTM'sdidreferencesuch discussions,itwasoftentorecruitpostcolonialconceptsfortheverydifferentproject ofratifyingwhitetransmasculinities.AlthoughIthinkthisdoesnotcomeacross clearlyenoughinmychapter,Ifeltthatthebordermetaphorwasbeingadoptedfor transprojectswhichactuallyignoredthemovementsofcapitalandprivilegewhich werecentraltootherborderdebates. [30]HALBERSTAM:Nowadays,Ibelieve,identity basedconflictsarelesspervasiveandpeople interestedintransgenderpoliticsarenotusing "border"onlyasametaphor.Wearebeginningto thinkinsteadaboutthewaysinwhichracialidentities, classbackgroundsandimmigrationhistorieshavea profoundimpactuponone'sexperienceof transsexuality,one'saccesstohealthcareand community,one'ssocialroleposttransition.While manyoftheearlydebatesthatwecall"borderwars"

tookplacewithinandamongwhitetranssexualandlesbian/gaycommunities,more recentdiscussionshaveoccurredamongandbetweenqueercommunitiesofcolor. Thisyear,forexample,theAudreLordeProject(aqueerpeopleofcolorgroup) "Transworld:TheFourthNewYorkCity"hosted"Transworld,"the4thAnnualNYC TransgenderandTransexualHealthEmpowermentConference."Thisconferencewas agreatsuccessanditcomfortablyaccommodatedpanelsonglobalization, immigrationandsexworkundertheheadingoftransgenderpolitics. [31]HALBERSTAM:Thecentralissuesforthefutureinthinkingabout transsexual/transgenderandlesbianmasculinitieswillinvolvefarmorerigorous attentiontotheverydifferentmeaningsofmasculinityproducedinverydifferentsites. IhaveattendedacoupleofButch/FTMpaneldiscussionsinthepastyearorsoand theyhaveinevitablyinvolved3or4whitebutchesandFTM'sproducingtheirpersonal narrativesandthenarguingoverthemeaningofthosepersonalnarratives.Ithinkthe challengeforwhitebutchesandFTM'sistomove beyondtestimonyandbeyondidentitybattlesand tothinkcarefullyaboutourproductionsofwhite masculinityandlearnfromthediscussionsaround masculinitiesofcolor. [32]JAGOSE:Inordertobeabitmorespecific aboutwhatthischallengemightlooklikeorwhat sortsoflearningtrajectoriesitmightinvolve,can wetalkalittleaboutyourworkondragkings, whichaddressesthetheatricalisedinteractionof whitemasculinitiesandmasculinitiesofcolor?On lookingatDelLaGrace'sphotographsthatrun withyourSocialTextessayondragkings,thefit betweencertainspecificformsofmasculinityand theracialorethnicidentityofthedragking performersishighlyvisible.IamthinkingaboutShonandDred'sRunD.M.C partnership,UncleLouie'swhitetrashtruckeroryourowndandyishappropriationof thesuit'sconferralofmanhood.Atonelevel,the"realness"ofthedragking's performanceisreinforcedoreven enabledbytheseemingcoherenceof raceorethnicityasasignifyingpractice. Howmightthismeshingofgenderand race/ethnicityenablearethinkingof masculinity?9 [33]HALBERSTAM:Theappealofdrag kingculturetomeoriginallywasprecisely thatIfeltitdidenablearethinkingof masculinityandarethinkingmoreover thatcentrallyinvolvedtheperformanceofracialandclassedmasculinities.Inthe earlydragkingconteststhatIdescribeinthe SocialTextarticleitwassoobviousthatthere werehugedifferencesintermsoftheatricalityand performancebetweentheblack,white,Asianand latinadragkings.Thedifferencewasobviousat leastinpartonaccountofaudienceresponse. ThemostlyblackandlatinaaudiencesatHerShe BarinNewYorkrespondedwildlytotherapacts andhiphopdancingblackandlatinadragkings andtheyrespondedwithonlylukewarm enthusiasmtothewhitekingsinsuitsandties. Thewhitekingsevencomplainedthattherewas

nowaytheycouldwinadragkingcontestwiththataudience.Butoverthelasttwo years,thedragkingscenehasbecomeevermorecomplicatedthewhitekingshave becomefarmoretheatrical,theblackkingsdomorethanrapandfunk.NewYork,of course,offersonlyonesociallandscapefordragkingcultureanddragkingcultures changeprofoundlydependinguponwhereonefindsthem.Byfarthemostexciting dragkingsceneintheUnitedStatesat presentisintheMidwestinColumbus, OhiowheretheH.I.S.Kingsperform monthlyforhugescreamingaudiencesof fans.TheH.I.S.Kingsaremorelikea theatertroupethanaclubcohortand theyhaveupto20activeperformingdrag kingsofdifferentethnicitiesandclass backgrounds. [34]HALBERSTAM:Andsinceyou broughtitup,I'lladdresstheuseofmy ownphotoinFemaleMasculinity.Thanks forthe"dandy"comment:IthinkIwasgoingforacheekybutcompetentkindof masculinityinthesuitandtieimage.ThephotowastakenbyDelLaGrace,with whomIhadbeenworkingatthatpointforoverayearonTheDragKingBook.Ihad watchedDeltakepicturesofdragkingsandIwas soimpressedbythewayheslowlydevelopeda rapportwitheachsubjectandthenworkedhis wayintotheirconfidence.BythetimeDelwas takingpicturesofadragking,hewasatrusted friend,afellowconspirator,neveranoutsideror intruder,alwaysasympatheticeye.Whenhetook somepicturesofme,IlearnedalittleaboutDel's technique,hisabilitytofindpointsofidentification anddesirebetweenhimselfandhissubjectand thenplaythemoutinthecreationofphotos.Asa photographicsubject,youbecomeanextensionof Del,youbecomehisperformanceofmasculinity aswellasyourown,youfindnewwaystoexpress identity.Iamaparticularlyuncomfortablesubject forthecamerabutIwasalsoveryhappytohave thesephotosinthebookbecausetheyprovidea visualreferentformyownmasculinityandthis forcesthereaderofmyworktofactormeintothe accountsofmasculinitythattheyarereading.The photosarenotsimplyidleselfpromotion(althoughtheymaybethatinpart).Theyare alsotestamentstothefemalemasculinityIliveandweareveryday.10 [35]JAGOSE:Yes,eventheleaststudiedofDel'sphotographscouldhardlybe called"idle"giventhewaytheyregisteraparticularinvestmentintherenderingvisible offemalemasculinity.(IMAGE11COWBOYON HILL)Isthisrecordingoffemalemasculinitywithin thefieldofvisionasignificantpartoftheprojectof TheDragKingBook? [36]HALBERSTAM:Definitely.InfactDelandI hadaverydifficulttimefindingapublisherwilling todothebookasphotograph/texthybrid. Publisherseitherwantedatextbookwithafew blackandwhitephotosoraglossycolorphoto bookwithnotext.Youwouldnotbelievehow

muchthephotograph/textformatseemedtotroublepublishinghouses.DelandI heldontooursensethatwordsandphotosmustgotogetherandfinallySerpent's Tailcamethroughforus.Ithinkthatpublishinglengthytextualanalysesofdragkings alongsidephotosisriskybecausethetexttendstogetlostaspeoplearedrawnto picturesbuttopresentthephotoswithoutgivingacontextforthemistofeedintothe mainstreammediadepictionsofdragkingsasjustarecentmarketingtrendremoved fromcommunityproductionsofartandknowledge. [37]JAGOSEHowdoesTheDragKingBookregisterthatinterestincommunity? [38]HALBERSTAM:Well,it'ssignificantlydifferentfromFemaleMasculinityinthatit isnonacademicandtriestoappealtoageneralreadership.Itincludesinterviews withdragkingsanddescriptionsofeventsandreliesheavilyuponthedragkings' ownstatementsabouttheirperformances.Thebookisdividedbetweendiscussions ofNewYork,SanFranciscoandLondonandthenhaschaptersonrace,gender, Elvisandmasculinities. [39]HALBERSTAM:WehaveagreatinterviewwiththeDodgeBros,adragking bandfromSanFrancisco.ThetwomainmembersoftheDodgeBrosareHarry Dodge(aperformanceartistfromSanFranciscoandabeardedwoman)andSilas Flipper(guitaristinthebandTribe8).TheDodgeBrosarereallyinterestingtome becausetheyidentifyasbutchandthey seedragkingdomasaplaceto celebratethesuccessoftheirparticular presentationsofmasculinitytheytalkin veryhumorouswaysabouttheirfemale fans,mostlystraightwomen,whocome totheirshowswiththeirboyfriends,but leavewiththedragkings!Whilethis playsintothemoststereotypicalformsof masculinecompetitionoverwomen,it alsodoesrewrite"butch"aspowerful andattractiveratherthanpatheticand ugly.TheDodgeBrosrepresentformea verysignificantcurrentofadragking butchaesthetic.Itisalsoopposedtorecentrepresentationsofdragkingsas"sexy women"whodressupindragtohidetheirobviousfemininityandthenstripdownto showthewomanbeneaththesuit.InJohnWaters'recentfilmPecker,forexample, NewYorkdragkingMoBDickplaysastripperatthebeginningofthefilm,adrag kingattheendandthenintheclosingsceneshestripsoffherdragtorevealthe stripperagain.WhileIamgladthatMogotmuchdeservedpublicityforthisrole,I thinkWatersdeliberatelydefusedthethreatandthepowerofthedragkingactby insistingupontherevelationofthefemalebodyandbyturningtheactintoa voyeuristicspectacleforstraightmen.KingsliketheDodgeBrosdonotsolicitamale gaze,theythreatentodeployone! NOTES 1.PhilipBrianHarper,AreWeNotMen?:MasculineAnxietyandtheProblemof AfricanAmericanIdentity(NewYork:OxfordUniversityPress,1996);JoseMunoz, Disidentifications:PerformingRaceandSex(Minnesota:UniversityofMinnesota Press,1998);LisaDuggan,"TheTrialsofAliceMitchell:Sensationalism,Sexology andtheLesbianSubjectinTurnoftheCenturyAmerica,"Signs,vol.18,no.4 (Summer1993):791814;LauraDoan,FashioningSapphointhe1920s:TheOrigins ofModernEnglishLesbianCulture(NewYork:ColumbiaUniversityPress, forthcoming).

back 2.JacobHale,"ConsumingtheLiving,Dis(re)memberingtheDeadintheButch/FTM Borderlands,"GLQ:AJournalofLesbianandGayStudies,Vol.4,no.2,"The TransgenderIssue,"ed.SusanStryker(1998):311348;JayProsser,SecondSkins: TheBodyNarrativesofTranssexuals(NewYork:UniversityofColumbia,1998). back 3.JudithButler,GenderTrouble:FeminismandtheSubversionofIdentity(NewYork, Routledge,1990);JudithButler,"Afterword"inButch/Femme:InsideLesbian Gender,ed.SallyMunt(London:Cassell,1998);EveKosofskySedgwick, EpistemologyoftheCloset(Berkeley:UniversityofCaliforniaPress,1990). back 4.MichelFoucault,TheHistoryofSexuality:VolumeI:AnIntroduction,trans.Robert Hurley(NewYork:Pantheon,1978). back 5.GeorgeChauncey,"ChristianBrotherhoodorSexualPerversion?Homosexual IdentitiesandtheConstructionofSexualBoundariesintheWorldWar1Era"in HiddenFromHistory:ReclaimingtheGayandLesbianPast,ed.MartinDuberman, MarthaVicinusandGeorgeChauncey,Jr.(NewYork:Penguin,1989):294317; GeorgeChauncey,GayNewYork:Gender,UrbanCulture,andtheMakingofthe GayMaleWorld,18901940(NewYork:BasicBooks,1995);GayleRubin,"Thinking Sex:NotesforaRadicalTheoryofthePoliticsofSexuality"inPleasureandDanger: ExploringFemaleSexuality,ed.CaroleVance(Boston:Routledge,KeganandPaul, 1984):267319;GayleRubinwithJudithButler,"SexualTraffic:AnInterview," Differences,vol.6,"MoreGenderTrouble:FeminismMeetsQueerTheory," (SummerFall1994):6299. back 6.KateBornstein,GenderOutlaw:OnMen,Women,andtheRestofUs(NewYork: Routledge,1994);KateBornstein,MyGenderWorkbook:HowtoBecomeaReal Man,aRealWoman,theRealYou,orSomethingElseEntirely(NewYork: Routledge,1998). back 7."TheTransgenderRevolution,"airedOctober5,199810pmonA&E. back 8.EstherNewton,"TheMythicMannishLesbian:RadclyffeHallandtheNew Woman."Signs9no.4(Summer1984):55775;ElspethProbyn,OutsideBelongings (NewYork:Routledge,1996). back 9.JudithHalberstam,"Mackdaddy,Superfly,Rapper:Gender,RaceandMasculinity intheDragKingScene,"SocialText,5253(Fall/Winter1997):5379. back 10.JudithHalberstamandDelLaGrace,TheDragKingBook(London:Serpent's Tail,1998). back JUDITHHALBERSTAMisanAssociateProfessorintheDepartmentofLiteratureat theUniversityofCalifornia,SanDiego.Herlatestbook,FemaleMasculinity,was publishedbyDukeUniversityPressinOctober1998.Sheisinterviewedhereby

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