Transcript for Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy

Below is the transcript for Joel Salatin: How to Prepare for A Future Increasingly Defined By Localized Food & Energy: Chris Martenson: Welcome to another ChrisMartenson.com podcast. I am of course Chris Martenson and today, we are speaking with Joel Salatin, one of the most visible and influential leaders in the organic food and sustainable farming movement. His family owns and manages Polyface Farms which has been featured prominently in such modern food movement masterworks as The Omnivore’s Dilemma by Michael Pollan, and the documentary Food, Inc. - if you haven’t seen it it’s an incredible eye opener, it was for me. Joel’s unconventional but highly innovative farming practices are inspiring millions to increase their nutritional and community resiliency by seeking out local sources of chemical-free food raised using natural process-based farming practices. Joel, I’m a huge fan of your work and the practices you advocate. I apply a number of them in the management of my own small homestead in rural Mass. It’s a real honor to be speaking with you.           Joel Salatin: Thank you, it’s an honor to be with you Chris. Chris Martenson: Well thanks. Could you please give our listeners a short background on what you see as your mission, what its key tenets are and why what you are doing is so important?  Joel Salatin: Sure. Well our mission statement is to develop environmentally, emotionally and economically enhanced food prototypes and duplicate their production throughout the world. So its all about these food production prototypes that not only are economically and environmentally beneficial but also have a social - we say ‘emotional’ just so we can have three E’s - but it’s a triple bottom line deal and wonderfully, if you get creative enough, you don’t have to sacrifice the ecology in order to have a profitable business and you don’t have to sacrifice profit in order to have an ecological business. So the principles are relatively few, you know it all backs up to biomimicry, for sure. In other words what we want to do is take natural templates and draw a circle around them like a pattern, cut them out and put them on our commercial farming landscape and duplicate those natural patterns. So what are those natural patterns? Well the things that have been regenerated and built soil for centuries are not tillage and annuals, which of course are both things that our culture worships. Rather, they are perennials, both trees and forages and herbivores and periodic disturbance, whether by fire, mob grazing or other disturbances that are created by predator type things. And then rest periods. Rest periods for recuperation and to metabolize the disturbance factor. So as soon as you start doing those kinds of things, that means you are going to move the animals, they are not going to stay in one place, its going to be primarily perennially based, so we are always looking at how can we harvest acorns from the trees into pork for example. It’s going to be perennial grasses, not annual grasses or grains. And its going to be portable infrastructure, not permanent or non-portable infrastructure which means all of the facilities, the shelters, the control things like fences and things like that are all going to be light-weight, gentle-footprinted, portable type things. The fertility is not going to depend on things brought in from across the world but they are going to depend on recycling solar-created biomass onsite, that’s the carbon cycle. Sun makes the plants, the plants grow, the plants either get eaten or decay and the decay feeds the soil life which makes more plants grow and that carbon cycle moves in a cyclical pattern onsite not from offsite. So there is always a heavy component of animals, perennials, disturbance, rest, portability and real time carbon cycling.                    Chris Martenson: And so this, you’ve been doing this for a while, and so you have measurable results that the soil is being built and that you can do this profitably. I assume at this point we can say it’s a success? You

He’d come along and put electric fence stakes in them because we didn’t have enough soil to hold up electric fence stakes. And so. a reason to exist that demands respect. that’s exactly what has created. and it doesn’t take much soil to hold up electric fence stakes.   We’ve even got research now going to try to isolate the porcine stress gene so we can take that stress gene out of the pig and abuse him a little more aggressively but at least he won’t be stressed about it. Today we usually handle 100 cows. the difference being that biological systems can heal. that’s a parts-oriented thing. I call it the “pigness of the pig” and the “cowness of the cow”. is it just as simple as profits at this point in time or is it frankly just easier to farm with the other practices?   Where do you draw the line on that? Joel Salatin: Well we can start with the philosophical difference that we think that food is fundamentally biological and most of the culture thinks that food is primarily mechanical. depleted. And that’s why we can pull DNA structure and genes from a pig and put some in a pepper plant and some in a salmon and have a brand new life form. All of those bare rock places have several inches of soil over them and the gullies. disrespectful.coli. we filled a lot of the gullies in with silt that we dug out of bottoms to build ponds so we have ponds built and the gullies filled in and arguably the most productive farm in the whole area. including the food police who don’t like small scale backyard processing or kitchens or anything like that. It’s a very active bacterial. You and I don’t have sterile insides: our insides have three trillion beings to take this food and make it flesh of our flesh and bone of our bone and we better be thinking about what that community wants.can farm this way and it works?     Joel Salatin: [laugh] Oh. And that community is far from sterile. And we had so little soil we couldn’t even hold up electric fence stakes. we’d sit on the platform on the tractor and heave these things off as Dad drove slowly down the field. as this mechanical approach toward life has caught up to us with bovine spongiform encephalopathy. And in fact. which is 50 years ago. they want everything to go through a multi-million dollar facility with chlorine and fumigants and a lot of toxic sanitizers to sterilize everything. Dad poured concrete in old used car tires and then pushed a half inch pipe. Because only a bioterrorist would run chickens out in the field where they can commiserate with red wing blackbirds and indigo buntings and take our diseases to the science-based types of chicken houses and threaten the planet’s food supply with disease. But some of us believe that life is fundamentally biological not mechanical. mechanical. A culture that views its life with that kind of conquistador. we didn’t do it because there was no pattern or template in nature in which herbivores eat carrion. we live in strange days when Coca Cola. compost-grown tomatoes and Aunt Matilda’s pickles are considered hazardous substances. they have resiliency. what’s going on there? Why aren’t they? Joel Salatin: Well our neighbors think we are bioterrorists. There are major. In fact we measured the deepest gully was 16’ deep. who was a little bit older than I. there is this big collective “Oops. one straight up and down and one on a little bit of an angle and my brother. 30 years later. That’s how we started and we could barely handle ten cows. And when you disrespect that . like pieces of an engine. biological community.          Chris Martenson: And so if this is possible. how many people are following it and of the people who aren’t adhering to these sorts of practices. gullied. what does the fight center around. So not only are people not clamoring to do this but we are being demonized by the mainstream agriculture community and it’s pretty serious. mined-out farm in the whole area. we did not do it because we didn’t like the USDA or because we were luddites or not progressive or hated science. maybe we shouldn’t otta done that. manipulative mentality will soon view its citizens the same way and other cultures the same . salmonella.” You know. Twinkies and Coco Puffs are considered safe but raw milk. and they have a reason to be. all these things are modern mutations and toxic proliferations that have become mainstream with a mechanical view towards life. you know the E. Our family came here in 1961. Bought the most run-down. major differences of opinion about what ‘proper food’ is.for example when the USDA took farmers like me to free dinners for 30 years to teach us the new science based feeding of cattle with dead cows.        Chris Martenson: There’s a lot to be fighting here. And so. There is a big difference between sanitation and sterilization. unquestionably.

 I think it’s fascinating that we actually produced more nutrient density in what is now the U. seven times the nitrogen. we streamlined the harvesting so fast industrially that the wheat never gets shocked and never gets any mold in it to break down some of these enzymes that are real hard for our bodies to break down. never to be seen again in usable quantities. we are seeing gluten intolerance. it’s actually acted on by some sort of activity in the earthworm. Well what stimulates the nutrient cycling is the onsite biomass regeneration cycle. fourteen times the phosphorous.you know those things are mined somewhere or manufactured and trucked and put in a field and then something is grown and harvested and put on a plate and then it gets flushed out to sea. they are really quite impressive stretching from the ‘50’s to current and just watching the obesity epidemic spread across . that three trillion member community in our insides.way. of nitrogen per acre per year out of the atmosphere and put it in the soil but they only really become active at 4% organic matter and most of our soils are not anywhere close to 4% organic matter anymore. In the last 35 years. We are seeing childhood leukemia. well what we are seeing is exactly what we are seeing right now. when you gaze across the agricultural landscape. they are not rhizomes like legume roots like alfalfa and clover. than we actually do today. And what’s amazing is that nobody knows how that’s done. 600 years ago. are free living.S. So if we have our typical NPK .       Chris Martenson: Well. copper. And if that isn’t a commentary on where we are today with the drug trade and the pharmaceutical industry. molybdenum . and potassium . bring it out their back end. put it into green material that .all those things are increased. our culture has exchanged an 18% per capita expenditure on food and 9% on health care to 18% on health care and 9% on food. we might think food.nitrogen.there are micronutrients as well that are incredibly important. phosphorous. Sir Albert Howard said in 1943 in his foundational work in agricultural testament that when we use artificial manure (that’s what he called chemical fertilizers) artificial manures for the soil. Our bodies. they are free-living bacteria that will bring up to 100 lbs. very strongly eschew them?     Joel Salatin: Yes. it feeds into our food system enormously and one area is in nutrient cycling. boron. How does your approach incorporate and deal with the nutrient cycling? Joel Salatin: Well that’s a great question. humans set themselves apart from nature? And we do that. woman. One of the areas I’ve been focused on for a while because I’m very focused on the energy sphere and wondering how energy feeds into everything and. eleven times the potassium.clearly that has to be due to something. even with all of our petroleum and everything. And I would suggest that it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to think there might be a connection between the inversion of those two numbers. I mean certainly anybody who has seen the obesity maps that I think the NIH has put out. you are seeing obesity and we are just seeing a proliferation of these chronic type things that are a result of bushels of material that is not nutrient-dense or is not nutritionally-based and its certainly isn’t food that we have been used to eating. I don’t know what is. So the whole secret of the nutrient cycling is to tap into the green material to capture more solar energy. cobalt.  You know it’s amazing that earthworms can eat a pound of stuff in their front end and send it through their alimentary canal. but they are not now. It’s actually not concentrated. Joel Salatin: And part of that’s because. back when the buffalo were here and perennial grasses. this whole idea of nutrient cycling – but those are just the big ones . Some bacteria for example. plus an elevating of all the whole trace elements. the same pound of stuff. then they grow artificial plants which then make artificial animals which then make artificial humans which require artificials in order to keep us alive.                  Chris Martenson: So what’s the end of that story if man. They used to be. what kind of damage are you seeing being done? Is it a one-way cul-de-sac that ends in famine at some point or what is it that you see in these practices that ultimately leads you to very. I mean how many people did you know 30 years ago that were intolerant to gluten in wheat? Chris Martenson: None. of course. you are seeing Type II diabetes. Not the least of which of course is the earthworm community. Or that were grown with artificials. is not meant to receive substances that you can’t pronounce or you can’t make in your kitchen. So. and its like three times the calcium. And so.

compartmentalized. this miraculous. We don’t think about it in the shower in the morning when we are getting ready to go to work “Let’s see. That’s what an acre of pasture does. Our culture is a kind of product of the Greco. It fertilizes itself. And you can’t extract your living from the hydrology cycle. obviously our oceans are pretty well tapped out and it turns out that a lot of the gains. absolutely no question. Western. everyone of us is utterly and completely dependent on that world. As soon as you take that herbivore and put it in a feedlot. from the biomass generation cycle. these systems work. So it’s the animal that recycles.mass accumulation re-start button to prune that forage off and restart the fast biomass accumulation cycle. Roman.lamb.            Chris Martenson: Right. And so in our county. If you don’t have that. Just to give you an example. in our county. So if you really want to eat on a low energy system. quit eating chicken and quit eating so much pork and eat grass-finished beef because grass-finished herbivore is the most nutrient dense substance that doesn’t require any tillage. And yet we don’t even put it in the business plan as an important part of what we are doing. I’m telling you ways to double and triple production without chemical fertilizer. In other words a ‘cow day’ is what one cow will eat in a single day – that’s one cow day. in which nothing relates to anything else. we’ve got the U. on an irrigated grain-based system. that these systems are far more productive. if Monsanto figured out a way to get 1% increase in yields in something it would make the front page of the New York Times. can those be the gateway that will allow us to actually increase our food production to levels that are being talked about or is even that just silly talk at this point in time – we are going to have to fine some other way to adjust here?      Joel Salatin: Oh.yes there were some neat variety tinkering in genetics and stuff in there. sustainable system. that’s where a lot of the studies that impugn livestock come from.can de-compose and go into the soil. the fact is. and doesn’t require any tillage. But that is the only way to only have a regenerative. the average cow days per acre is currently 80 cow days per acre. But throughout the world. which was with primarily herbivores.that everything that we see is completely and utterly dependant on an unseen world of beings in the soil that never make it to the page of a business plan or a bank statement. cow . of course. that is what I call the bio. You know. And of course life isn’t like that. So yes. that starts that whole fast metabolism cycle to metabolize the solar energy into biomass through photosynthetic activity. the great prairies and the great soil building regions of . Nobody asks about this trillion.N. then it all breaks down from an energy standpoint and. And so. linear. multiply trillions and trillions of organisms that live in the soil and yet. and in 50 years. I mean its crazy talk right there don’t you think?  Joel Salatin: [laugh] Yes. fragmented system that ties parts oriented thinking. one of the measures for pasture production is in cow days per acre. On our farm. all the nutrient cycling? What are my activities today going to do to that?” We don’t even think about that in the shower in the morning.              Chris Martenson: I think you are talking about something really radical here is that our own health is linked to and part and parcel of the health of the world in which we live. And so we study things by tearing them apart and not seeing how they fit into a whole. what you just have is the bio-mass just goes into senescence and in senescence simply vaporizes the CO2 off into the atmosphere and it doesn’t do anything any good. On our farm. without even planting anything and it doesn’t make the obitituary page. mystical. we own no plow and no disc. but mostly that was irrigation and the application of the artificial fertilizers and all of that. it’s a profound thought . and the best way to do that is with an herbivore . unseen world that runs all the plants. there is no question. reductionist. projecting through their population studies – they have a branch that has projected that by 2050 we are going to have to basically double food output across the globe.some sort of herbivore. the productivity gains that we experienced in the so-called “green revolution” . can the type of farming practices that you are talking about. And the way they work is to go back to historically – well the way nature built soils in the first place. all the water cycle. goat. In your mind. and I already told you at the top of the program what our farm looked like 50 years ago without a single chemical fertilizer and without planting a seed. awesome. from the energy cycle. we have moved this farm to average 400 cow days per acre – that’s five times the county average. how are my activities today going to impact this soil web. ultimately – what I always tell people is to realize. all the animals.

from farmer’s markets to community supported agriculture to on-arm stands to metropolitan buying clubs to retail boutiques. is buy unprocessed. you gotta do something different. and rest and perennials. Historically.  Now. So our view is you we cannot really increasingly use a limited resource forever. the kinds of food that can be grown within 100 miles of you. Buying organic from a thousand miles away doesn’t get the job done. Omnivores like chickens and pigs require some sort of a grain component which then requires tillage. And just think about going down to the supermarket. disturbances. nutrient-dense ecologically-encouraging farms that are selling . packaging is extremely expensive: it’s essentially stored for a long time and it has a long distribution cycle. we look at the food supply as being critically vulnerable to the impact of peak oil’s arrival. its really arguable right now. You know after all fossil fuel energy inputs vastly exceed the caloric output of most so-called modern farms. The main thing was lamb.the world. I think this is a fascinating thing.                         Chris Martenson: I’m glad you mentioned the energy portion of the cycle. tillage was extremely expensive. then of course.   And so my first advice to anybody. I would say number one – find your kitchen. walk through the isles and say.” And we fail to realize that we are part of the issue. that those herbivorous creatures can do or are made to do very well without any tillage whatsoever. the next step is to either grow some or buy it locally. It’s a broad span. not meaning it runs out but we have slightly less and less. “Well you gotta do something.” . Those are the four cornerstones of a system that works. You know if you had to go out and walk all day with a sharp stick behind an ox or a yak or a mule. goat and cow which was the herbivore. grain was extremely expensive and hard come by which is why poultry was only eaten by kings and poultry and pigs were only grown enough to salvage the waste stream from the homestead.but the point is. from the Serengetti in Africa to the plains of America with buffalo to the Australian continent 200 years ago that had 10 marsupial species to do the disturbance.. its arguable. you need to do this and that and the other. that’s part of this whole local food awareness. non-planted material. That was the main thing . And we also focus on helping people develop personal resiliency.com we spend a lot of time on energy. goat or cow is because the herbivore is the only domestic animal that can harvest non-tilled. I think here again. even growing at least a small percentage of their calories so they can be connected to the food supply more personally.or deer or bison or whatever . It’s just as energy intensive as anything else and so we want. to our listeners in terms of how they should be or might begin to think about interacting with their food supply?           Joel Salatin: Oh – such a great question. then you had to hand weed and you had to hand scythe. way down and as soon as we do that. To winnow out the chaff and at the end of the day you look on the ground and “Oh we’ve got some grain here and now we are going to try and store it in something away from the mice and the rats for a year.. Our view is that most people alive today will experience a decline of oil firsthand. think about the amount of food. a processed food is heavily packaged. and fix it in your kitchen. whatever but there are plenty of these kinds of things. way. That will drop the energy footprint way. raw. There are thousands of high quality. huge implication behind that. What guidance are you offering to people. we have to approach this from an integrated holistic standpoint. I mean fifteen hundred miles per morsel is kind of the average. shock it up and bring it in to a hard floor where you could beat it to separate the grain from the husk then you had to take a crude wooden pitchfork and fling it up in the air in a breeze to -I’m sorry flailing was the first one – this is winnowing. starting with food: storing food. grand scale just in the last century. it can almost all be grown there. If the common temptation is for you and I to say. At ChrisMartenson. The reason all civilizations throughout history have been built around the herbivore. lamb. find your . before the time of sheet metal and mesh wire. you couldn’t stir very much soil. whether a culture which has incarcerated twice as many people in prisons as it has farmers growing its food – whether a culture is that disconnected from its ecological umbilical can even survive? So. And it’s a huge. So first of all. can a locality feed itself? Absolutely. And none of the situation that we’ve gotten ourselves into is a result of any one person’s doing – it’s a collective accumulation of a new societal protocol. you had to plant by throwing it out with your hand. And tillage has only actually been doable on a large. And so. finding local suppliers. which I would suggest is very historically abnormal. how much of this could be grown with 100 miles? And in northern climes if we take off citrus and coffee and tea and sugar. And until cheap energy and cheap machinery. I mean. all of those were built with herbivores.

to just show how disintegrated our thinking is. into the college. Now we don’t even have to have concentrated animal feeding operations for chickens anymore and the Humane Society can rejoice that we don’t have any battery egg production. For instance in my local area. if we would take on every southern exposure of every house and office building and school whatever.kitchen. Anybody who treats heat as a ‘waste stream’ at this point in time. we wouldn’t have to run any of those trucks. we’ve got now for example. If all the diesel fuel being put through refrigerated trucks to bring unseasonable produce to New England and Virginia – I’ll call it the northern tier – if all that diesel fuel was converted into plastic to make coop houses. that’s an integrated holistic approach rather than some sort of “I’m going to continue to eat my California-introduced mesculen mix in February in New York City. and getting energy and stuff.you know we talk about windmills. now they are getting taxpayer sponsored money to cover those lagoons with rubber bladders to capture the methane so they are getting little green environmental awards for being green and capturing methane so they can run all of the expensive fans and machinery and buildings and equipment that’s necessary in a confinement dairy operation.if we would take. What we need to be doing is building a little chicken house adjoining the back door of the kitchen so all the kitchen scraps can go right out into the chickens. we wouldn’t have to build any of those roads. in New England we’ve got confinement dairies who 20 years ago got environmental awards for taking taxpayer money to put in manure lagoons as a manure management program. I absolutely think that biomass certainly has a role to play and I think that we have created some real problems by not cutting crooked and diseased trees and things like that. it sounds all green and everything right? But its going to require five or six hundred thousand tons of forest to be cut down. if we would just take wire mesh or cattle panels and just tip up a frame and cover it with plastic to make a simple solarium. Mass they are proposing a bio-mass plant. Our national forests are in deplorable shape. season extensions and solariums on the south side of buildings. with all of its intendant energy requirements. Well instead of having a no-cut policy.S. And they are building it with the intent that they need to do something with the waste heat so there is all this piping that they are going to have to put in. I’m told that virtually all of the urban homes are heated by wood pellets. hasn’t really thought it through and doesn’t understand much about what they are trying to solve. What we need to be doing is shutting down the confinement dairy operation. my goodness . but it is a very. now we don’t have to grow any grain. till the grain . for restaurants or let’s take a college that figures out “let’s take all of our kitchen scraps and send them up the road ten miles to the composing outfit” and then the dining services coordinator gets a nice plaque and a little award for being green because now they are composing their kitchen scraps. very renewable resource. I am certainly a friend of biomass and I’m not interested in cutting down all the forest. So you know. You don’t have to truck those eggs into the city. then source your food locally. In fact in Austria. So like here in the U.    Joel Salatin: Yes. For example. Same thing goes for example. I don’t think really deserves any green plaques. turning the herbivores back out on the perennials. to be sure. The Yellowstone fires were caused because of a no-cut policy. beautiful circle. where we have the propane or fuel oil truck that goes along and fuels people’s fuel oil tanks and propane tanks. and then grow some yourself. let’s strategically cut but apply good sylvacultural practices and there’s enough wood out there to supply everything. and eggs go right to the dining services and the kitchen scraps go out and it’s a beautiful. in Greenfield. we wouldn’t have to use any of that energy to do that. the chickens then can eat that and produce eggs. And that becomes.chickens resume their historically normal cycle which was the homestead salvage operation to take all the kitchen scraps and whey scraps and cheese scraps and all that and convert it into eggs. There the same kind of truck goes along with a little auger in it and stops at your basement window and augers your bin full of wood pellets and you know goes on down the street to the next house. I couldn’t agree with you more. 8’ out from the southern side of every building we could virtually heat all the buildings without any energy and grow our mesculen mix and shut down all the trucks bringing California produce to New England over the wintertime. like they were meant to be. Hang the system and let’s figure out how to make more cheap fuel. Now. I’m personally shocked and sometimes dismayed at how far we still seem to need to go. Anytime a Scandinavian comes here for a visit – they just go into epileptic seizures about how terribly inefficient Americans are with their . see. letting them selfharvest. self-fertilize and shut down the entire concentrated animal feeding operations. That is the kind of integration .”                                Chris Martenson: Just thinking about the issues before us and maybe trying to find clever ways around it. trucked to the central location.

all these kinds of things. When I think of energy. You never really have innovation until you have a level of disturbance. the mechanics that went along with it. maybe we could have a little steam engine. the biomass cycle. when homes actually still had functioning larders . What we view today as normal I argue is simply not normal. We seem to be unable to get there on our own terms. Joel Salatin: Well. I think of community-scaled. And you know if we would quit trying to build empires around the world that would love us enough to continue our flow of oil and keep all that money at home and let the fuel go to wherever it needs to be. And I think it’s just absolutely unspeakable. its autonomous to the community. And now we are starting to see some of the outcome of that boundless. it would create a little more disturbance and we’d maybe become a lot more clever about what we are doing. And today. if you will. disturbance is always a precursor to innovation. and just run willy-nilly as if there is no constraint or restraint. So we will get there by some other terms at some point. we’ve been able to extricate ourselves from that entire umbilical. you had these kinds of what I call ‘inherent boundaries’ or brakes on how much a single human could abuse the ecology. That horse had to eat something. maybe he wants to grow some corn and run a little alcohol electric generation thing. when 50% of all the vegetables were produced in backyard gardens. including the whole food police thing where you and I can’t just decide to eat what we want to eat.and I’m sure you have heard this and I’ve collected these kinds of clippings for my lifetime . We’ve got a build-up of waste. and its and all the facilities are at a scale that nests into the ecological womb of the village.        Chris Martenson: Well there is a lot to be said for these disruptions you are talking about. is that when all of us plug into the grid. I think it’s obscene. is that in the future we are going to see more food localization. throughout history.                        Chris Martenson: It does.forests. This whole century of cheap fuel. I understand you have a book coming out this fall. And so you had. indiscriminate antibiotic use. These are amazing times. Joel. with what we can offer. These are all unprecedented trials in the history of civilization and I think anybody under 50 today just can’t even fathom a time where there were no TV dinners. Maybe somebody else – like us for example – we have hundreds of acres of really high-quality well-growing trees on our farm. it makes a lot of sense. when we actually ate seasonally. suddenly the community has power but its completely decentralized. we are going to see more energy localization. The title is Folks. Just think about if you wanted to go to town 100 or 120 years ago. And it actually contains some of the things I’ve just been talking about. unconscionable. And certainly expensive fuel is becoming a societal disturbance right now. is my view. no supermarkets. during this period of cheap energy. They need to be culled and thinned and that sort of thing. And I couldn’t agree more. again. Well whoever is on that creek can put in a little Pelton wheel to run a hydro project. But I think it’s going to require a bit of a crisis first for some reason. and you know no chores for children [laughs]. their patents and their products and these things never saw the market. there might be a creek with a lot of fall in it. we are going to see more personal responsibility in ecological lifestyle decisions because its going to be forced on us to survive economically we are going to have to start taking some . it’s our view that perhaps some are coming up. The thing is. unfortunately many of these things are. And that I think makes sense. This Ain’t Normal. high fuel prices and the herbivore. I think we’ll get there.says that even in the late 1960’s there was plenty of technology to build 100 mile per gallon carburetors but the auto companies kept buying up these backyard entrepreneur innovators. And another neighbor with real good bottom land. But yes. My mechanic . they are so industrial scaled and so sized that they are not community appropriate. Maybe somebody else sits on a hilltop and has wind so he puts up a wind generator. in a given community. untied progression. the way to bet. When we talk about historical normalcy. Is that right?    Joel Salatin: Yes that’s correct. The point I’m making. which means you had to have a patch of grass somewhere to feed that horse which meant you had to take care of some perennial in order to feed that horse in order to go to town.we don’t even use the term larder today. our forest. of junk wood oxidizing on the forest floor and that certainly needs to be used and we need to cull and we need to weed our forests just like anything else. if you wanted to go to town you actually had to go out and hook up a horse. that we would have buried technology that would have allowed us to quadruple our miles per gallon for that long. unpronounceable food. And so the chances are.

there will still be people here doing wonderful things. . Joel Salatin: Bye. This Ain’t Normal. A lot of people are. Joel it’s been a real pleasure talking to you and I want to think you for this opportunity and wish you all the best. maybe ecologically don’t make sense from a sustainability standpoint. So this is all something that is not beyond us. I get a lot from the title alone.accounting of these ecological principles. And at the same time we note that disruptions are the way things change and so anything that is unsustainable. well said. or set of nested examples. And so those are the kind of themes and the arguments I’ve put in the book. There is a lot of satire. So if we were to summarize here: we have basically a lot of unsustainable practices that just energetically don’t make sense.”      Joel Salatin: Well said.   Chris Martenson: Well. Certainly there are warning signs abundantly strewn about the landscape for anybody who cares to look. In fact there are working practices out there. that’s the good news. it’s been an honor to be with you. it ain’t normal. the definition is it will someday stop. your farm being an example. lot of humor and the title is Folks. Thank you.                   Chris Martenson: Great title. And the other good news that I get from your message is that integrated approaches and integrated understandings of how these pieces fit together are well within our grasp. We can do this but we are just going to have to start with the understanding of where we are living today is: “folks. I couldn’t agree more. Joel Salatin: Thank you Chris. Obviously we’d love to be sustainable in this world because I’d like to think in a thousand years.  Chris Martenson: Goodbye.

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