Folder 9/24: Exhibits (1 of 3) | Watergate Scandal | United States Government

T!.

t: t:H1TE liOUSE
t,AS D. C.
8:40
9:00
9:01 9:04
10:20
10:2-5 11:20
10:51 10:54
.11:26 12:45
12:32 12:33
.1.2 : 46
.1:2:53 12:55
2:10
.1:30 1: 35
1:38
1:39
1 : /.5
1:49
2:16 2 : 17
2:20 3 : 30":'>
3:33
'=_ 1,:09
4:14
5:25
5:25

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PRESIDENT RICHARD WXON'S DAILY DIARY
D"Tf (Mo., 0'1. Y,. )
JUNE 20, 1972
D"Y
8:40 a .o. TUESDAY
ACnVITY
The President had breakfast.
The President HeDt to the Oval Office .
The President with his Dc?uty Assistant. P.
Butterfield.
The President went to his office in the EOB.
The President met with his Assistant. John D. Ehrlichman.
The President talked with his Deputy Assistant. Edward L.
Morgan.
The President met with his ASSistant, H. R. Haldeman.
The President talked with his daughter. Tricia.
The President

telephoned Senator Chase
roe call was not
The President talked with Senator Smith.
The Presidcmt met with his D:!?uty Assistant. H.aj. Gen.
Alcy.ander H. Haig. Jr .
The President talked wi t h Senate Leader Hugh Scott
(R-Pennsylvania) .
P The President talked long distance with Joseph Treroto13 .
P
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Vice of the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters. in York City.
The President talked ..nth hi!> Counsel. Clark HacGregor.
The President talked with his Special Counsel , Charles W.
Colson .
The President met with Mr.
The President telephoned Staff Assistant Stephen B. Bull. j
President ralked with Beverly J. Kaye. Hr. Bull ' s
secretary.
The President talked uith his Special Assistant . Patric.k J.
Buchana n.
The President Jr.et uith Mr. lIalder.!an.
The l'residcnt \,·ent to the H-,rh",,..
-
DAY B!GA.. ...

5:50
6:01
6:08
6:30
7 : 36
7:52
8:04
8:42
11 : 22
11: 33

5:53
6:12
PHO:-lE
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8 : 21 P
8 : 50 R
12 : 05 P
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DATE (Mo .• D'r. Y •. )
.J1IKUO. 1972
Tll>tS DAY
<.," ".n
ACTIVITY
The President c e t Hr . Butterfield.
The President returned to the second floor Residence.
The President talked with John N. Car..paign Direct
for the for the Reelection of the President .
The President and the First Lady had dinner in the Yellow
Oval Room.
The President returned to his office in the rOB .
The President talked \-lith tlr. Haldeman.
.
The President talked with Mr. Colson .
The President telked with Hr. Halder.o.an.
The President returned to the second floor Residence.
The talked with Hr. Colson.
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J,Jlltl.::l.l:Y 15) 197.';
r:.ep<:> rt ,to Chief Judge John J. SiricD.
,
From the Advisory Panel on the mlite House Tapes
I n response to your request He have made a cOJ'!'.prenensi
technical study Hbite HOllse tape of June 20, 1972, H:i,th
special attention to .:l section of buzzing sounds that lasts
18 . 5 minute,s. Paragraphs that foJ.lm·] sunl!Tl.arize
our findings and indicate the kinds of tests and evidence on
Hbich \-Ie base the findings.
Hagnetic signatures that we have measured directly on
the tape ShOH that the buzzing sounds \-lCrC put on the tape in
the procesS of erasing and re··recording at least five , arid
perhaps as many as nine, separate a.nd segments.
Hand operation of keyboard controls on the Uhcr 5000 recorder
\'1aS i nvolved in starting and again in stop'ping the recording
of each segment . The magnetic signatures observed on the
tape shot·] conc l usivc.ly that the 18.5-minute section could not
have been ' produced by any single, cont inuous operation.
Further, Hhethcr the footpedal H.:tS us'eel or not, the recordinr.
cont rols must have bcen opc:;:".tcd by hand in the m.:lking of
'each segment .
Th e erasing and recording operations thnt produce::d the
buzzing section done directly on the tape He received
for study:. He have found that this tape is feet long ,
Hhich lies Hi'thin a normal re.nge for tapes sold as 1800 feet
in length. He have examined the entire tape for physical
splices and have fOUtld none. Other tests that He have mnde
thus far are consis tcnt the assumption t hat the tape is
an original and not are-recording.
A Uher 5000 recorder , almost surely the onc designated
as Governmc"nt Exhibit 1J60 , \·las used in producing the 18.5-
minute sect i on . Support f or this conclusion incl udes recorder
operating characteristics that He measured and found to cor-
respond to signal characteristics observed on the evidence
tape .
The buzzing sounds themselves originated in noise picked
up from the electrical pOHer line to Hhich the recorder \·ms
connected . Heasureracnts. of the frequency sp·ectr um of the
buzz that it is made up of a 60 cycles per second
fundamental tone, p]us a large number of harmonic tones et
mul tiples of 60. Especially strong are the third harmonic
at 180 and the fifth harmonic at 300 cycles per second . As
many as forty harmonics are present in the buzz and create
its " raucous " quality. in the strength of the
buzz, "Jhich uuring most of the l8.5-minutc :>cction is either
' I loud" or. " s?ft, " probably .<:rose from severnl causes including,
,
variations in the noise on the pO"Jer line, erratic functioning
of 'the recorder, and changes in the position of the operator ' s
hand ,"hile running the recorde r. The variations do not appear
t o be caused' by normal machine' operations . .
Can speech sounds be detected under the buzzing? He
t h ink so. At three locations in t he l8.5-minute· section, we
have observed a fragment of speech-like sound l asting less
than one second. Each of the fragments l ies exactly at a place
on the tape that was by the erase head durine the
seri es of ope-rations i n "Jhich the several segments erasure
and' buzz \·/ere put on the tape. Further) the frequency spectra
of the sounds in these fragments bear a r easonable resemblance.
to the spectra of speech sounds.
Can the speech be recovered? He think not. He knoH of
no technique that could recover intelligible speech fro:l! the
buz i;'; section. Even the fragments that \-.I e have observed ar.e
so heavi ly obscured that He cannot tell Hhat Has said .
The attached diagram ill ustr.ates the sequence of sound
events in the l 8.5,minute section. Also illl.ls tr a ted is a

sequence of Uher operations " crase-record onll and "erese-
record off" that are consistC:!nt signat\ll:cs that l·;e
measured ... on ·the evidence tape. The five segments that can
be identified unequivocally arc laheled 1'1" through "5. "
In addition" diagr am shoHS four segments of unc qrtain
ending.
In developing the technical evidence on Hhich He have
based the findings reported here, we have used lahoratory
facilities, measuring instruments, and techniques of several
kinds . in'cluding: digital computers located in three dif-
ferent laboratories, specialized instruments.f:or
frequency spectra and l,'aveforms, techniques for " develo:ping"
magnetic marks that can be seen and measured directly on
the tape, techniques for measuring the performance character-
istics of recorders and voice-operated switches , and sta-
tistical methods for analyzing c>:perimental results .
. ' ,
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In StllTL'll<1ry h.:::.vc reache d at, rcel;!Cllt on t ile
[oiloHing conclusions:
1. 'fhe et-asiog and l--ccording ope rations that produced
the buzz "'section Here done directly on the evidence tape.
2. The Uher 5000 recorder designated Covernment
ExhibIt .1;60 probably produced the entire bu%z section. :
.3. The erasures and buzz recordings \.Jere done in at
least five, and perhaps as many as nine) separate and COI)-
tiguous segments.
!!. Erasure and recording of each segme nt required
hand operation of keyboard controls on the Uher 5000 machine .
5 . Erqsed portions of the t a pe probably contained
speech originally.
6. Recovery of the speech is not possible by any
method knO\·m to us.
7. The evidence tape, in so far as ,,,e have determined
. ,
is an original and not a copy.
.. ' .
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Respectfully submitte d.
Richard H. Bolt
Franklin S. Coopet-
James L. Flanagan
J ohn G. (Jay) NcKnight
Thomas G. Stockham, Jr.
Hark R. Heiss

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SYMBOLS'
V ERASE- RECORD
ON
6. ERASE - RECORD
OFF -
ERASE-RECORD
ON AND OFF
SEGMENT
OF SPEECH'L1KE
SOUND UNDER
BUZZ
START ISTOP CLICK
WITHIN BUZZ
'" ERASE -HEAD-OFF
SIGNATURE OF'
UHER 5000
(" l ERASE - HEADoOFF
SIGNATURE
PARTIAll Y ERASED
n
SEGMENT WITH
UNCERT/\IN ENDING
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SPEeCH
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SEOUEr'!CE Of OPERA TIOhJ$ SEQUENCE 0 F SOUi
ON UHEI1 5000 RECORDSR ON THE TAPE
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18 July 1911
. 10:15 Meet with I1"'g Buzhal'dt G
_ .. . . arm(:n! and Ray Pro
.., .. uee Kcrhli. Received instructions', ICC and
No cl.angc in location.
No other matc;ial to be included.
Supervise complete cl13ngc of security
Keep a record. .
names of those concerned.
__ Jnspect premises with K l.:. S.
__ Droke newS to S. ConHrn:ed wi 1 .
instructions to remove rna h' t) Buzilarilt, at which time
c .ncry were iS5ucd.
c, l' e; ll ' r ' "m:'''''''''''''''''''''='''""
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Return o f the foll owing reel s 0"( tape reeortlings fr om.
Miss Rose Mary Wootls this thirteenth d,,¥ of
1973: (identified br 1st line on box.) •
1, EOn OHice start 3/2.0/73
2.. Oval Office 9/15/72.
3. Oval OHice 3/13173
4. EOn Office start 6/30/72.
5. Eon Office start 3/2.0/73
6. Oval OHic e 3/7..1/73
7 . Oval OCfice 4/16/73
8. (Copy of Do:<) EOn Of{ice on 4/10/73
9. EOB OHi ce 6/12./72. - ?
la, Oval OfCice 2/2.8/73
11. Oval OHice 4/14./73
12.. EOB Office 4. /16/73(C1.(::\) S; t'" '':'''CM,.)
13. Oval OHice 4/18/73 ---;:;;.
H, Oval O(fi cc 4/17/73
15. Oval OHice 4/17/73
(Xcrox copies of each Box. attached)
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Witness :
J);u.,d, MlrvuM
,0,9£=,,06,,0
R ose Mar}' vibods .
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The following t .. pes clc"ign"tcd for eopyinG at ",SA on afternoon
Novembe r 13. 1<)73 (1.:00 p. rn. inventory):
(Identified by lst -date on box)
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H,- EOB orftcc .--, 3/Z0/
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9/1S/72" " ' " , ... i ;" b
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...... 3.4 .... __ .. ('iI 11. m.)
._&-r._EOH-oifice ",_ _5t;>1'1 ____ 3/20/
73
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Eon office on 4/10/73
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Start (,/lZ/n v... ,"::,<... ...... ,'-l\
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/ZlZ. \\.H telepl,ooe star.!.f.;.5';"-':;..) si<::,r:
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Total of twelve tapes .
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November 14, 1973
15;00 p . m.)
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J ha ve per&onally received frOITl John C. Bennett the
following tapes this da.te (all tape s arc Copies No.1 of originals):
1.
Z.
3.
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5.
6.
7.
xon Office start 3/20/73 _ 3/23 /73 ......
EOn Office sta.rt 6/30/72 -"
Eon Office start 3/20/13 3/28/73 ....
Oval Office 3/21/7l---
Oval Office 4/16/73.-
(Copy of Dox) E013 Office on 4/l0/13
EOD Office 6/12/n '
8. EOn Office 4/11/73 y
9 . WH Tel 5/ZS/n ·
10. Oval OHico 2/28/13 ~ .
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Cox was a little bit confused in his reques t rc the meeting on
June 20th. It says Ehrlichman/ lL'll deman meeting -- what he
wants is the segment on June 20 from 10:25 to 11:20 with John
Ehrlichman al one.
Al Haig
z:t. /173
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IN RE , SUJWOPN!\!, OUCE!:: 'I'ECtlM ISSUeD
lHXON RE '1'110 SU3NNA13D ITENS 'J':IA. ... ' DO
October 31, 1973
r 'I I
'fO PRESIDF.NT ktClI/l1U) M.
IlOT EXIST
1-._
J I <,
ThL' court: The COurt first learned yesterday th",t
the April 15th !lml June 20th tapp.s do not exist. Buzhilrdt
inforl'l'.cd the Courc. and Justice counsel that
recordings of these COIlversatiom. had r:evcr bean mace . The
Court felt thcE'e factH und the cIrcumstances giving risf'
i'
to them should be Wide a n:atter of public record nnd therefore
scheduled this (2)
UUZH.'\RDT: The telephone call bet .... 'cen the President
;!Ind Mitchell on June 20th dPP"'rt'ntly "'"':;'5 lOIadc £,.0::1 onC! of the
telephones in thu re<;i6e"lc( whic'l was root hooked lnto the
recording systcm o:n,} therofore does not appear on the tape
of recording. The conversation the and
Dean on April 15th was recorded due to a of
the system, or inadequacy of the system. (2-3)
C.
E:m.ploYf in the Uni ted States Secret Servjc.:'. at tht'.
Exccutive Office Building, Technical !:.ecurity Di-.::lr;i.on , since
1966 .
Zu'!".n'alt the firtit on(' co.nsl>ltcd in inr.talling
tape recol:dil'g He desigr:"d the systc:l1 and
supervised :Its installatiou. (4)
The telephone SyEtCl"I had three extensions of the
White House switchboard tit'd into it: the Ov;:;l
cxtenf.ion; the EOB ey.ter,sio;-,· and the in the
Lincoln rOOM. !IU. three ... ·ere tied intC' '" telephC'ne
picl;- up de\·icc . 'l't.e fa!':lilr loc"tor devi.:e woold turn on
the pick-up oevicc at h1.6 :"oc.lljon, Wr.&rCV6r i1':' ,,'nuld bL .
All three telephones were on ene lape . Tr.e Oval
Office was extension seo, O!tice was 504 and the
Lincoln room \,'<15 506 . Tho system started automaticall}
when the hand set was removed irom the cradle . (5)
was no capability to recorcl convcn.ations Oil other instrur.entll
or other w(tellsions . (6)
The recording 1l'1Ichine was l ocated in n small room
in the basement of the l1est l1in9. (6)
At the beginning Zumwalt rr.onitored the system.
later turned over the changing of the tapes to
Baker, Zumwalt's assistnnt . (6)
Only telephone calls were r ecorcled on tapes
that recoraed telcphone calls. (6 )
Five inch reels with 1800 feet pet· reel .. ere usee .
The machines et 15/16 sp2cd, so that there n'ere 6 ho;;.rs
recording time on OI")C tape . The telephone tape W:'8 checked
daily Monday through Fridll.Y, but usually not on \<,'eekends .
The tape h,e to chang"d an:'whcrc fro::! or four days
up to b'o wccko. (6-7)
Sevcn mic:.:op!lon.::s \,'ero :!.r. the 0"".1
Offico . Thc.}' connoclcd too (J. Q,ixer was CClw'l.ected
to a voice Opct •• ted relav. Fr('llll the. vojce operated relay
there was a tin,er. In th<. recorder!; wl:!rc c(')nneo:ted .
3ystc.rn t,::-ned C'l off by t.hf> f'll:lily locator .
'Chis turned cn I''''e pc.1/er . Th:!::..ox controlled the start lind
!ltop of the mnchi!'.f's. The m",chimw remained idle unt il
act iVated !)y a nolfie . (7}


-2-
The conversations in the Office, the EOD
and the Cabinet Room all were recorded separately. There
were two recorders for the Oval Office, two for the EOB and
one for the Cabinet room. The Cabinet room was voice
actuated, but not contt"olled by the family locator . It was
turned on manually. (7-8)
TO prevent an individual from staying late or
coming in carly before tho President arrived, they installed
II. timer that would automatically switch from one recorder
to another &omewhere between 11 and 12 p.m. This was
for the EOB and the Oval Office. (8)
The OVal Office tapes normally were checked about
2 p.m. If the tape was low, a new one was placed on the
machine. The EOS office was not changed that frequently
due to lack of use . After a tape was removed, it was stored
in the cabinets with the equipment until a omall amount was
collected . They then were removed to a safe contained in
a room in the EOB. (8-9)
Baker and Zumwalt access to the recorders.
There was a key to the equipment cabinet in Sims' safe.
In the beginning only Zumwalt had access to the room, then Baker
was brought in. There were only three keys to the cabinet.
Won9 had access before Sims took over Wong's position. (9-10)
About ten or twelve tapes, in boxes, were wrapped
in brown paper, dated and stored in the safe . The notations
were made on the boxes the reels were stored in. The date,
location and meter reading were noted . The date was written
on the box when the tape was put on the machine. (11)
The Oval Office and telephone systems ... ere checked
Monday through Friday, the EOB less frequently. They were
not checked on weekends. They I"cre checked on }-°riday and then
on Honday . (11-12)
111014 does the system work on a weekend, specifically
Sunday, April 15th?} Zumwalt had explained the timer switches
from one machine to another. He subsequently learned that
tll.'O days are run together. The only way he could explain this,
kno .... ing the way the system was set, the 7 day timer was not
a precise instrument. The contacts on the timer were modified
to perform the function thny wanted it to perform. :;;umwalt
assumes it failed to switch the machines that night. At
the time Baker was changing the tape . Zumwalt aSliumes tllat
on Baker manually switched the tape back. (l2)
On the morning of the day he testified, Zumwalt
examined the boxes containing the tapes for the weekend of
April 15th and 16th. On the reel for the 15th, the back
of the boA was marked full. It was noted as full and removed
on the 16th. (12)
[How could there have been a full tape?] After 11
Friday it would have switched to a new reel, a now machir.e,
that would have run until 11 Saturday . ht that time it
should have switched back to the tape that would have been on
Friday. Evidently, the contacts did not make, it did not
switch and it would have remained on the same machine through
Sunday until the timer was due to make another switch. rt
then would have switched back to its original state, and the
person making the switch would not have realized that it had
not gone through its switching phase . Thie ie a hypothetical .
(13)
I
-3-
There is no marking or anything else to indicate
when Zumwalt of hil> a5sistant checked these ta()cs between
April 13th and April 16th. zumwalt knows the room was not
entered on the 15th because no one entered the cabinet to
change that tape . That is shown by the computer print-out
log for the alarm system for that room, whiCh would indicate
whether anybody entered the room. (14)
From the marking on the first tape. the microphone
was installed in the Oval Office by February 16, 1971. At
some unkno\m time Zumwalt obtained theac from the
tape boxes and entered them in his notebook. lie changes
inserts in the notebook as they are used up. recording
anything of interest in the new notebook. 'l'he notations of
dates probably were made around July, when Zumwalt knew he
was possession of the tapes. Zumwalt dpstroys the
notebook inserts after they arc used up . (Notebook
Govornment Exhibit No.1) (15)
The Secret Service made a full inventory, tape by
tape . This was turned over on July 18th to General Bennett.
On July 18th they were told to deactivate the tape
Sim", told Zumwalt to turn the inventory over to Bennett .
Sims is the chief of the TSD and is the special agent in
charge. They also prepared a compilation of sccess to the
tape room by any person and a compilation of all the tapes
that had been removed at any time from the Storage area.
(17) That compilation still is in the safe. It reflects
each occasion prior to july 18, 1973 when a tape was removed .
Zumwalt last saw that log on July 18th. Zum",·alt ' s notes
consisted of 4 or 5 pieces of paper . The compilation
reflected 4 or 5 occasions, not more than half a dozen, on
which tapes were removed. Anywhere from one tape up to 15
or 20 would have been involved in any instance of removal .
(18) Sims gave Zumwalt the information allowing him to
the tapes . Zumwalt may have discussed this directly
with Bull, but the tapes would not have been released
without consulting with Sims. Bull did not have to the
tapes . Zumwalt ' s compilation of the removal of tapes indicates
what tapes removed, to whom they were given and when
they were returned. ?he compilation did not indicate who
was to sce them or for what purpose they removed .
Aside from public testimony Zumwalt has not heard that anyone
other than and the President listened to any of the
tapes , except one time that Butterfield listened to a tape
in Zumwalt ' s presence . It was not logged out to him. There
was no procedure to inspect tapes after they had been removed
to determine if they had been altered. Zumwalt did not check
tho tape to verify that it was the same tapo that had been
removed. (20) Zum·.;al t did not play the tlipOS . There .\las no
marki ng on the reel itself . There was no indication that
copies of the tapes" were being made . lit no time ",'as any
tape removed from for over a week . zumwalt has no
knowledge of any tapes that might have been removed from
storage after July 18th . (21)
The recording system was installed by 2 of Zumwalt's
personnel, Charles Bretz and Roger Scwalm. Neither of them
participated in the monitoring. servicing or storage of
tapes after installation of tim system. The installati.ons
did not occur at the same time. The Oval office came first.
(22) A number of mi.niature microphones was placed on the
President's desk in the Oval Office, and there were 2 other
microphones in the office , behind the wall sconce or lighting
fixture . During installation an audio test conducted.
Zumwalt participated in it . The system is very sensitive .
It ","Ould detect norMal conversation in the hallway. If you
whispered and an individual would hear, it probably wouldn ' t
it up . (23) Durinq the tCgt, they talked at low voices
1n various points in the room and in that may be used.

_J
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'filL' .... <1, tested at the point [urthr-
l'Iicroph.lI1t"I, ta:r.i..ng in a very low voice. '1'
pickep 111' the S' •. r.d. (23-24)
from the
equipment
TIH,'!re .... as no manual ovcrrida by which the President
could kl'!.'!, the from workin9 in the Oval Office. (24)
recording devie:! [or tha Eon was in!.ltallcd in
a !lrnnll no:t to the office inside a small cabinet. The
mJcrophones inEtalled in the President ' s desk. (25)
From ti:ne to time t.hroughout the installation
wonitored conversations to determine whether the was
functioning properly. There .. ere no instructions from
Dutterlicld <100'.lt. the regularity \.;!th which the equipment
should be There were discussions that the
should be mal:"ked daily and Buttcl:"ficld said he pl:"cfel:"red th"t
at the OVal Office each day should be on a separate tape.
The machines were checked for pick-Up on selected
If the person was in the office during the time the was
schedule,l to be changed , the perf:on would look to see if the
tape functi oning properly, not necessarily listening to
it. On at least one occasion Buttel:"field asked for a tape so
that he could listen to the quality. (26) Butterfield did
not ask Zumwalt to keep up on this to detcnmine if the
equipment was functioning propcl:"ly . DUl:"ing the time Zumwalt
was checking the machines , about once a week he would listen
for " or two to determine whether the equipment was
functioning and caring about the substance of the conversation.
When Baker took over, Zumwalt instructed him to check periOdically.
(21)
Zumwalt occasions when the timer did not
switch properly. No notation was made. and Zumwalt has no idea
when that occurred. Buzhardt has given Zumwalt information
that rofl'cshed Zu:nwalt's recollection about the timer
malfunetion.i.ng since Zumwalt's intarview with Ben-Veniste
on the morning of the d<lY Zumwalt testified . Zuml"alt cannot
recall any mal[unetion during the time he was changing the
tapes. Baker h<ls informed Zumwalt on at least one occasion
that the timel:" did not switch The only reason
zumwalt say €I malfunction occurl:"ed is that Buzhardt informed
him there were two days running on one and that is not
normal for the equipme!'lt . It never eallle to Zumwalt ' s attention
dUl:"ing the time he was in contl:"ol of the equipment that there
was a (28) Zumwalt ' s ans ... 'er is on the
that B'J.::hardt informed him the switching equipment didn't
.... ,ork propel:"ly the weekend of IIpril 15th . During Zumwalt ' s
control of the tapes. there never was a malfunction. Bakel:"
infor!:',cd ZUII'Malt of a malfunction of tile timer before, Zumwalt
can rec.:lll Ilaker m<;lking 11 statement on v<lrious occasions . This
Baker how frequently occurred. and
Baker s.:ljd it happened several times . Zumwalt spoke to Bnker
at 8 in Zumwalt's office. On various occasions the mnchine
had to be chnngQd. "hen asked about « in an office
inter":. e ... ·• Zumwalt 5«id nothing about the tape 01:" timel:" not
.... 'Ql·king properly. (29-30)
BAker took over the scrvicing of the equipment in
1972. the eraly part of tho year. The only way Zumwall
could the date ",'Quld be by checking the handwriting on
the bcxes of tape . The day to day servicing shifted entirely
to (30) In June 1972 Baker WIIS assigned to be Zumwalt's
Baker was present ""hen Hunt's safe ,;,.as opened.
I
_J
-,-
The t.apes usually were not chnl'lged on the wcckC'nd.
If the President's activities report showed activitcs
scheduled for the weekend, a man come in and change the
tapes . This was rare . Zumwalt cannot recall any inF.tance
when the tape was changed on the weekend. If Zu!:'I ... ·alt or Baker
happened to be in on the weekend, it possible they would
change the tapes. (33) Zuml1alt can r ecall one instance when
the Oval Office tape ran out. It had ?Tobably j!.;st run out
when Baker weltt to change it in the Zumwalt haA
no idea when that happ"'ned. Zumwalt ... as very alal'1Tlcd when this
happened . ror a long time after that checked the tapes
earlier than 2 O'clock. does recall that this
ever occurred in the £OB. FrOr:! has been told ,
the only instance when this occurred ... .)s April 15th. Zumwalt
has not had the opportunity to listen either the tapes
f:laintained on April 15th. (IS) lIis testimony about what might
have happened then is strictly
Thursday, November 1, 1973
BUZIIARDT
All tape recordings made on ';:he I'lhite House system
still exist ill their entirety and have been kept under close
security. It was not until several ".Ieeks ago whe:1 the
President considered making a disclol5\.;:-e before "::he matter
Wi!:S resolved in the courts that he II review of
the tapes. Initially recordings of conversations
could not be found . It ·",as not defin:'-::ely deter:'",ined that
the 2 conversations Io;ere not recorde!! 'Jntil late last week.
They were still continuing to check yesterday. propose
to show that there were six hours on tRre ane that the
tape \0.·.18 set for Saturday April 14th i!::d Sunday t.ho 15th and
that the tapes were not changed . The Fresident's lawyers
will show by the President's log that had more than 6 hours
of conversation 0:1 Saturday and Sunda::" so that the tape ran
out . They will aubnit for the Judge ' s examinatiC:1 in camera
the tape of telephone calls and the that on the
mllchine April 15th so that the Judge hear tl".e tape rurming
out and verify the conversations ion t:-.8 tape} in
accordance with the logs. They that tr.e Judge
use technical experts, agreed on with -::he Prosec".;':;or , to
determine that the tapes are corr-pleta and ha\·e not: been tampered
with . (40-41)
(Ben-Veniste and the Court their concurrence
that experts should be called to chec: .. the t apes. (42) I
ZUMWALT
Zumwalt guesses he turned t:-.e responsibility for
changing tapes over to Baker in the rr. :' ::::l.le of '7 2. He cannot
recall whether he or Baker was resons:":'le for 8e:-"\"icing the '
ti!:pes on June 20, 1972 . H3) There "'·"-5 no repo::"-::ing procedure
in connection the tape3 or their ':'nstallatic:1. Zumwalt
not instructed not to report . At tir.-,e 0: installation
wong was Zumwalt' s illlI:lediate supervi:!'"::::"" . ZurrMl!.l,:;' s title is
Supervisor, Security Specialist. Zu.-· .. !!.lt keeps", daily time
log that refl ects the hours he has '-'o:-i:ed each cay. It "'"QuId
have a description of particular acti·::ty if t!".e::"e ... ·1'16 a
special occasion Zumwalt wanted to re-e::lber. Zc:-.;alt ' s
subordinates had to submit this rapor,:; . lis you ,at to the
lower echelon, Il".ore activities are ir::::.cated . submitted
activites reports to Those oie include
cervicing the tapes . Zumwa lt never h3.::: 3. with
Daker about subnitting a report of h:E regarding
the tapes. It \o.'a5 generally understo:! that should be
no written about this
ZUJ!' .... ·alt submitte::' reports to Wong, b..;,:; ::ot abo..::: ,:;he tapes.
XumwRl t gave I\"ong and la'":.er SilT.s reports but
not written reports. Uaually tho ora: reports up only
i! Lhere ... ·i)C SClI\e cause to bring it ..:;: . such a5 :;'lI nge in
proccdul·e or chan;a in command. There ... ·/!IS no of
proe-cdures in hcndling the tape, but -:.::ero mic;h: ;,ave been
ia oper<lt:ion of the equipment, not necessarily bringing
this to or Sims ' attcntioll . The kind of chllllqes made
... ·cre changing the sequence of the timex: bec.::.use of underst.::.ndj nq
their functlon of using the office if it appeared the President
stayed in his office later than the hour for which the
... ·as set . The ch.1n9C was made right after the installation .
(46-48) Zumwalt r.::.rely discussed the srstem with or
Sims. Uo lIIi'lht if there was a breakdown o(fected the
operation while the office was in use . Zum\,.alt recnlls no
such inst.::.nce. (.19)
Rllndy Nelson had the same position Zumw<.Ilt had and
was in chl1rge of another qroup . Zuznwalt and Nelson diseussC!d
the operation of the tapes. Nelson might have participated
in the installation of the equipment and in the intial
s(!x:\'icing of the tapes . (50) Nelson in in the $ecret Service
at the Washington Field Office . Nelson had training in
electronic surveillance .
Lookins at his notebook (Ex. 1), Zumwalt determined
that the telepholle taping system was installed after the
Oval Office on 3/12/71. Originally there was a cross-connect
in the telephone frame room running directly to the room in
the Hest l"ling wh.:-re the equipment was set up. There was a
direct against a tip-on ring of the toque bearer ,
direct to a telephone pick-Up device . The voltage on the
telephone line, volts, had the equipnent locked up . The
drop to 12 volts when the hand set was lifted activated the
pick-up device which activated the recorder . There was a
direct connection to the recording at a point
between the and the telephone instrument. (52)
For the 3 extensions ZU!l'.walt referred to eax:liex:,
a number of extC'!'.sions were hookad up and conversation!; from
any of them would be recorded. (53) The connection to
taping equipment latex: was chanqed from the frame room to
one of the instrl.:..-:-.ents so that there ... ·as a direct wire from
the instrument the recording equipment. These wex:e received
in the basement cf the West Wing, even for the EOB phone .
There was no dis'::\lssion about putting a recording device on
other phones the Lincoln Room or about why that phone
was selected, Zumwalt understood that the President uscd
used that as a "· ... area . The telephone tapes ... 'ere checked
daily except Sat-.:rday and Sunday . (54)
The had no timer . Only one recorder recorded
all telephone cC';o:\·ersations . For room conversations in the
£OB, there were: recorders and they alternated depending
on which had b('("!'_ switch!'d on fox: that day . That was a 6 hour
tape on the Therc was no timer on the telephone
system because ;: thad bcen told to use only one machine
t o record all conversations . Baker or Bret .. built
a switching box. The family locator turned on the telephone
pick-up device the l ocation of the Px:esident. The pick-up
device would this switching box which switched the
sound into one to px:event tying two telephone lines
together. got his instruction from Butterfield .
The timer was Z:':"-"'alt 's idea, but he explained it to Butterfield .
Butterfield did -. .:'t know that room conversations ... ·ould be on
alternating At the beginning the tapes were changed
daily. Lack of ·.:se of the EOB office led to putting 2 or J
days on one tape. noting the meter reading on the box . (56)
The only way could tell when the change was made would
be by checking (57)
The ily locator did not determine ... ·here the Preside:-.t
..... as in the If he anywhere in the residence, the
power fox: the . .::oln Roor.:l phone was s ... ·itched on . (57)

I
-7-
zumwalt cannot recall receiving instruction6 about
storing the tapes or about them. Zuwwalt decided to
mark t.he date and the time the tape "'1\8 changed on the back
of the box . lie did not make interim n\arkings on the boy..
The notations would be date it was checked, meter reading and
location. (58)
There was an automatic gain control to raise lile
amplitude if there was a low noiDe . This control is built
into the recorder . The recorder is a Sony 800-B. Zumwalt
decided to use a 6 hour tape and switching device in the EOB
and Oval Office because they werc trying to get on any machine
the longest possible time after first selecting a machine that
would run at tho. slowest speed. 15/16. Zum ... alt knows of 110
machine that will run slower, than a larger
size . The only size machine that was available with a 5 inch
r eel with the 15/16 speed. Using 1800 feet per 5 inch reel
provided 6 hours of recording time. 'they used a machine
that had only a 6 hour tape because they had no other machine
in stock with a longer time rating than the 800-B. (60)
For each day a tape was on a machine there should
be a notation that the tape was checked . (61)
Tho 7 day timer has 0. large disc with small attachr.\ents
that rotate on the outer edge, making one rotation in 7 days.
The connections on the side of the disc turn a lever off or
on, switching power frow one machine to a nother. There probably
would be a 30 minute delay for a complete change. As the disc
r otated, both recorders would be shut off until the di8c
completed its r evolution. (61) Zumwalt explained to Butterfield
or Wong that the device would be inoperative for at least a
half hour each day. }\ 7 day timer "'as used to prevent Zumwalt
from having to stay at the office until the President
retired to put on a clean tapa or from having to enter the
office before the President arrived. The machine was sat to
switch automatically during the night. A new tape was not
put on in the EOB office, so tho.t the switch \o;ould !':lean that
you would conversations from the first and third of the
month on one and from the second on another tape. (62)
After the tapes had been placed in their boxes,
they were stored temporarily in the cabinet where the equipment
was kept in the West Wing. There were 5 recorders there -
2 with a switching device for the Oval Office, one for the
Cabinet Room. one for the telephones and one spare or maybe 2.
The cabinet is wall locker about 6 feet tall. 3 feet wide
and a foot and a half deep . (63) The entire division had
access to the room containing the cabinet . Only Bretz, Scwalm
Nelson, Sims, Wong and Zumwalt Imew directly what was in the
cabinet but the other people on the staff must have figured
it out. The csbinet was locked by an angle bar running from
the top to the bottom secured by lock. Baker and Zumwalt
had the keys. After' some tapes accumulated in the cabinet .
they were taken to a safe in a room in the E08 . [Stipulation
that the tapes still are in this room.] 3 five drawer standard
security safusl:ere in the room. (64-65) The tapes were packaged
10 or 12 to a bundle. The various locations were in separate
drawers. Zumwalt has discussed the tapes with the Secret
Service and with Butterfield, Bull and Buzhardt. (67) Nhen
Zumwalt explained the taping system to Bull when Bull replaced
Butterfield, Bull did not ask to listen to any tapes . Zumwalt
next talked to Bull about locating tapes When Bull asked to
hear some tapes . (68) Zumwalt was never aor-ed to search for
tape he could not find or to prepare a "'ritten or oral
explanation of the system until week when Sims questioned
Zumwalt about the operiltion of the system, the timer switch-
over system. Sims asked how a tape could run out in relation
to the timer . (69) Sims questioned Zumwalt about the Olli"ration
of the tirt1l.a:, especially over the weekend. lie asked whether
it was possible {or a tape to run out . Zumwalt didn ' t prepare
,
_J
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a written report. but Sims was takiny notes . (70) (Deneh
conference about report on the system prepared (or Duzhordt . 1
(Government Exhibits 2 and J, the report on procedures,
introduced in evidence. (72) J
The in.itials on Exhibit 1 are COT for Camp David
Telephone, CDHW for Camp David Hard I'Iirc. (72)
Yesterday Baker told Zumwalt there were several
malfunctions when asked how a reel could run out of
tape. Zumwalt did not refer to April 15th. (73) Zumwalt
did not report to the Prosecutors that there had been nalfunctions .
zu.llwalt has no knmdedgc whether anyone in the 1m had interviewed
Baker before Zumwalt had interviewed him. (74) Zumwalt's
meeting with Baker was not specifically to question him about
these tapes. Zumwalt talked to Baker following
testimony yesterday, but not about the tapes. Zumwalt
talked only with Buzhardt about the tapes . They did not discuss
zumwllit's testimony. (75) They discussed the timer mnlfunction.
(76) [Timer marked Ex. 4J The timer W!l!l identified by serial
number snd Baker's initials. Zumwalt didn't discuss
Buzhardt what had happened on April 15th. When Zumwalt
testified yesterday, he had no knowledge of any timer
malfunction on April l5lh. He has no information of any
different procedure on that date. If there was a reference
point on the tape, could compute how many hours
were on the tape by working baCkwards from the 15th, 90in9 by
the amount of footage. If Zumwalt knew it had run out on the
15th, he could say it must have been 90in9 on the 13th and
the 11th. (79)
The Secret Service copy of the President's activity
logs is destroyed daily. (80)
[Tape boxes marked Ex. 5 and 6J (81) The first date
on 6 is 4/11/73. Ex. 5 says EOB, 4/10/73. That is the
date Baker installed the tape on the machine. The tape didn 't
necessarily run that day. Since 6 is mGrked for the 11th,
the other tape probably was running that day. (84)
Ex. 5 would run on the 11th, 13th and 15th, except on a
weekend. then changed his earlier testimony , noting
that you cannot put 7 days on this timer. You have to skip
one day. It is possible for the same machine to run on
and on Sunday. (85)
The writing on Ex. 5 means that tape was checked
on 4/16/73 and the meter reading reading waB 348 . Ex . 6
was checked on 4/12/73 and had a meter reading of 409.
Zumwalt cannot explain why there is no notation on Ex. 5 for
4/12/73 . (86) If the President was out of town, it could have
been a clean tape. The notation on the tape shows that it
was removed on 4/18/73 and that there was no conversation
bebleen the 18th anc the time the reel was removed. Three
quartars of the reel was used up when it was (il7)
On Ex. 6 the next notation nfter 4/12/73 is 4/16/73,
full removed. The tape had run over or had a little bit left.
Referring to the notation Part 1. the standard policy for the
Oval Office when there is m0re than one tape in a day is to
mark the tapes Part 1 and Part 2. Part 1 doesn't mean there
had to be a part 2, thoU9h. (89)
[Spiral notebook of access logs marked Ex. 7J (90)
Zumwalt placed his intials on each page when the Ilotebook was
prepared on july 18th. Zumwalt next saw the this
morning in Buzhardt's office. {Notes attached to Ex. 7
mar);cd Ex . 7-1'11 (91) The notes. in wriLing, show
the tapes that were checked out. Ex. 7 was prepared from 71'1.
71'1 is a list of tapes removed from the safe, based
only on 71'1. That is the only place the information could
have been obtained. (92-93) There were no other papors in
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the ellfe . Whatever Zumwalt found in the safe, he trllnsndttl1d
to Ex. 7. It is not possible some paper was mispl<lccd and
not reflected in Ex. 7. There werc no instructions on
r.taintaining this log. (93)
The first: page of Ex . 7 shows that 22 tapes were
given to Bull at 1:45 of 4/25/73. Cd indicates Camp David,
Cr is Cabinet Room, Eob is Executive Office Building. WHT is
White House Telephone. (95) Zumwalt was given a time period
of desired tapes. These tapes werc returned at 5;28 on 4/25/73.
They went out again at 11 a , m. on 4/26 and came back at
5:05 p . m. on 5/2/73. Bull probably requested these orally. (96)
Looking at the dates shown, cannot reconstruct his
instructions from Bull . As far as Zumwalt knows, no tape
made during the dates indicated was not included in the list.
The second page shows 26 tapes, all of which went out on
June 4th. (97) Zumwalt tu:rned them ove:r to BulL The intials
underneath are Zumwalt ' s . The othe:r initials are Sims ' . Sims
placed his initials there when the log was prepared . There
is no indication when the tapes that went out on June 4th
were returned . (98) All documents about removal of the
tapes are contained in Ex. 7A. (106)
The third page of Ex . 7 shows that the tapes
from 2/28 through 3/22/73 were on 6/25/73. Sims
called Zumwalt at home and told him that a tape had
requested . (108) There was a rush to get the tapes, and
Zumwalt is not sure whether the notation 11:30 p.m. refers
to the time it was signed out or retu:rned. Sims and Ztunwalt
obtained the tape that had been requested it and took the
tape and a :reco:rder to Buzha:rdt ' s office. All the telephone
calls f:rom 2/28 through 3/22/73 were on one tape . One
particular date had been specified. (109) Zumwalt does not
recall the specific date . Duzhardt listened to a portion of
the tape . Zumwalt assisted in queing the tape up to a
pa:rticula:r conversation, but doesn't recall which one.
It was a conversation between the President and Dean and
was towa:rd the end of the tape , so it was mid to lato March. (110)
Zumwalt then returned the tape to the cabinet that evening. (111)
Page 5 of Ex . 7 shows that 6 tapes were removed on
july 11th at 2:45 p . m. Usually Bull requested tapes from
Sims, contacting Zumwalt if Sims was not around. Zumwnlt
wouldn't :remove tapes until he checked with Sims . (Ill) The
tapes on 7/11 were returned 7/12. Bull made his
fir st request for tapes, Zumwalt checked Bull's authorization
for removing tapes . The notation "to Steve Bull only" means
they we:re given to Bull and that no one else was p:resent .
Sims checked to see that Bull was autho:rized to remove tapes.
Sims talked with Bull . (113)
The notation shows that the Eon tape from 4/11 to
4/16 - Ex. 6 - was on July 11th and :returned on
July 12th. Ex . 7 was prepa:red f:rom Zumwalt ' s notes and no
other source . (114) Zumwalt doesn't know whethe:r Bull was
authorized to show the tapes to anyone other than the
President. (ll4) Zumwalt doesn't know what tapes Hoi \dcmltn
received or the date of the tape he reviewed . Zumwalt's notes
show that on July 10th at 2:45 p.m. he 3 tapes to
Bull, including 2 reels cove:ring September 15th, 1972. They
were :returned 7/12/73, the same date that Bull returned the
tapes he received on the 11th. Ex . 7A has no notation when
those tapes were :returned. (116)
Zumwalt doesn ' t know lIhether the convetsaLion between
the President and Dean in the £OB on Ap:ril 15, 1973 WQS given
to ualdernRn in July. (117)
J
The room containing the cabinet where the recroders
are kept is secured by an alarm a nd a lock on the door. A
record is kept of entries by a computer connected to the
alarm system. The police note the person who has entered.
The computer system works continuously. (118) {Computer
print·out logs marked Exhibits 8, 9 and 10 . 1 (119) The logs
cover April 13, 1973 at 12:09 a.m. through April 16th, 2351.
Exhibit 11 shows when the computer print out indicates the
room containing the 1:08 recorders had been entered. On
April 13th the room was entered at 1502 and secured at 1510 .
Baker had entered the room. (120) The computer Shows no entry
into the tape room on April 14th or 15th. On the 16th Daker
first entereel the room at 7:42 a.m. and left at 7:48. (121)
It is not possible that anyone entered the room between 1510
on April 13th and 742 on April 16th. This room is the only
access to the COB tapes. Therefore there was no entry to
the tapes between the times mentioned . {Additional log as
Ex . l2J (122) The room was entered on April 13th, but no
notation was made on the tape boxes that day . (123) The computer
print out refers to more than one room. 'fhe symbol for the
room containing the recorders is 147-S. (124) Zumwalt docs
not know what room 307-S refers to. (125) On april 15th at
2105 the alarm went off in room 307-S and Ehrlichrnan entered
that room. The BOB tape recorders Dre in room 175 1/2 . (126)
Referring to Ex . 7, it a p p e ~ r s that the tape of the
meeting between the President and Dean was removed not only
in July, but alsO on June 4th, again to Bull . There is no
indication when they were returned. (125)
BAKER, James G.
Employed with TSO for 5 years, 10 months. Supervisor
of the video and alarm section . Since the spring of 1972 Baker
has been responsible for changing the tapes and mA1ntaininq
the equipment. It is not possible to have a conversation
from a given date on one reel of tape and another conversation
from the same date on another reel of tape without having
anyone enter the recording system. (128)
Baker put his initials on Ex . 5 that morning in
the room in the EOB where the tapes had been stored . Baker copied
Ex. 5 onto another box on which he wrote copy . There had been
a tape in Ex . S. (129-130) The notation on the box, in
Baker's handwriting, means that Baker put a tape on one
machine on 4/10/73 and checked it on 4/16/13 when the meter
reading was 348, indicating that a small amount of tape had
been used . That tape was on the machine between April 14th
and 16th. The next flotation is 626 at 10 a . m. on 4/16/73.
The next notation is 4/20/73, 626 - removed three quarters
of a reel. (130-131! Possibly that should have been 1626.
(1 32)
Baker also placed his initials on Ex. that morning
and copied the notations on another box, marking it copy,
moving a reel of tape into that other box. (133) This tape
was put on a machine for the EOD on 4/11/73. The meter
reading when checked on 4/12 \o,'as 409. The next notation is
4/16/73 ful1- removed, meaning that !taker checked the machine
on 4/16/73, found that the reel was full and rereoved it.
(13C) Full means that the tapp, had run completely through.
This is Baker ' s recollection. But he doesn't recall removing
a full tape lit this time, althoOlgh it ha& happened. (135)
Since both exhibits are dated 4/16/13, they would have been
checked at the same time on that date. Baker would not have

J
-11-
I!I3do notations on any tape not on il machine. Baker h«d 2 machirles.
(156) It is not possible that any other 2 tapes recorded .lny
conversation of the \le-ckend of April 15th and 16th in the ECB.
The recorders were set for one recorller to run through for
Saturday and Sunday. (137)It was done this way because of the
operation of the timer and because the office wasn't busy
over the weekend. other tapes could have been on the
machines for the EOn office on April 14, 15th and 16th until
Baker checked the tapes. (138)
Baker probably took over from Zwn ... ·alt in Harch 1972 .
The only record Baker has of his duties is on the boxes . Baker
does not file reports of his daily activities, but had only
II. ",'cekly report of his general duties. Baker did not take
over storing the tapes in the file cabinets. (140) Baker
later had a key to the storage room because of the alarm system,
but he does not know when he \.;as given the key. The tapes
were stored chronOlogically according to the place where
the conversation occurred . (141)
Yesterday was the first time Baker was asked to
explain about maintaining and servicing the tapes to anyone
other than Secret Service personnel . had a conversation
wi th Zumwalt last week. They talked about the timer. (143)
Baker was an electronic technician in the Army.
Baker talked with yesterday about the timer
and told Zumwalt there had been occasions when the timer
malfunctioned. Zumwalt did not ask Daker about April 15th .
Baker did not talk with Zwr,walt last night or this morning
about Zumwalt's testimony, but they had a general discusaion
of the timing mechanism. (144) Baker discussed with
Zumwalt the procedure for not changing the tape over the
weekend . (145)
Theoretically Baker could have come in on the 12th
and set the timer so that there would have been an overlap for
the weekend. There was no set procedure for when Baker .... ould
I!I4ke notations on the tapes . (145) Possibly there I.'as no
difference betlo:een the readings on the 12th and on the 13th .
(146)
From the fact that the tape from Ex . 6 WAS placed
on the machine on the 11th, it would be a logical assumption
that Ex. 5 \','as in service on the 11th. (146) The only other
explanation i5 if Baker changed recorders, but there is no
indication that was done. Ex . 5 \','ould have worked on the 11th
and the 13th, and Ex. 6 would have worked on the 14th and 15th.
On the 12th the meter reading on Ex . 5 was 348 and 409 on
Ex. 6. (147-H9) Ex . 6 then was more full than Ex. 5. There
are 3 digits on the tape recorder counter . The reading could
have been 1626 , however, through Beol'.er ' s comput(ltion . (150)
The notation Part 1 and the small (i) in parentheses are not
in Baker ' s handwriting . Baker placed his initials on Ex. 6
this morning . (151)
Baker could have used the word full to describe a
tape th(lt had ten feet left on it. Baker hss no recollection
of removing the tape fron the EOB rOOM on April 16th. There
were occasions that the tape ran out, missing some conversation .
(152) Baker probably would have reported that to his supervisor
when it occurred. Baker would not make s notation about what
had occurred other than to mark the tape "Full removed- or
ran out . " Full r":noved could mesn there was a little
tape left . (153) Baker would have told zumwalt on the occasions
when the tape ran out . but Baker did not do so in April 1973. (154)
night , so
weekend .
The tape
it would
(154)
running on Monday would have switched that
not be the tape that was running over the
r
- 12-
In addition to Zumwalt and Baker Sims and \)ong
had access to the tapes . did not 90 into the safe
room and did not have access to the tapes beciluse he did
not have the combination of the snfes. (155) Baker had
access only to the room. IMker stored some alarm
in that room. Baker may have located tapes for someone else.
Zumwalt may have said bring the tapes for April from where they
were stored temporarily in the locker with the recorder . Zunll,·alt
would meal Baker and put them in permanent storage . (156)
Baker is not m.'are of anyone else who had access to the tapes
until they were turned over . Baker was aware that Zumwalt
and Sims were preparing a schedule of the access logs up to
that point, but Baker doesn ' t recall participating in its
preparation. (157)
There was a malfunction of the timer, but Baker
can't recall when. (157) When there was a malfunction, the (timer)
machine would get stuck on one position and stop there. Then
only one tape recorder would b¢ used. Baker can recall no
instance when the got stuck in the middle while it
was changing and there was no recording at all . It never
happened that the cause of a malfunction was that the tape
ran out . (158)
NESBITT, John Springfield, Virginia; assigned to the I1H by
National Archives :lince January ; 971. Vesbitt
supervises a staff that compiles a minute by rr.inute
log or daily diary of the President's contacts. (181)
The logs are prepared from 6 to 12 reports including
the telephone log maintained by the chief operator, the
telephone log maintained by the WII Signal Board, informal
l ogs maintained by receptionists outside the Oval Office and
outside the BOB office, a log maintained by the WH usher and
a movement log compiled by the Secret Service . (1821'
Ex, 13, initialed by Nesbitt, is the ribbon copy of
the President ' s daily diary fOT June 20, 1972. (1S3) This
would have been prepared 3 to 7 days after the 20th, Ex . 14
i s the telephone switchboard log for June 20, 1972 . It is
stored by Nesbitt ' s office. It shows whether the call I.'as
incoming or outgoing , the it was placed, the time of
disconnect, the party the President talked to and a column
for the operator to IT,ark the appropriate (lS.c)
The daily diary includes the inforoation about whether the
President placed or received the call , the time the call
was placed and when it ended and the other party in the conver-
sation. Ex, 14 is prepared by the chief operator. Nesbitt
cannot testify t.o its accuracy . (185) Nesbitt assu:nes this
is an original document and not a summlu·y. (186) [Objection
by Ben-Veniste to introduction of Ex . 14 in e vidence . (187))
Ex . 13 shows calls between the President and MacGregor ,
Colson , Bull ' s secretary Beverly Kinkaid and Buchanan. These
calls were made from the EOB office. At 6 : 01 the President
went to the second floor residence of the WH o From 6:08 to
6: 12 the president placed a local call to Nitchel!. (lB8) After
dinner the President returned to his EOB office at 7:36. The
next phone call was to Haldeman frem 7:52 to 7:59 . (189)
Ex, 15 is the ribbon copy of the President ' s daily
diary for April 10 , 1973. (189) Ex . 16 is the diary for ApT1l
11th and Ex. 17 is for April 12th. Nesbitt initialed these
oocuments, chocking them against his own copies at the time ,
Nesbitt kOllPS the daily supporting documentation in his files . (190)
J:x . 18 is the original dhry for Apr i l 13 , 1973;
Ex, 19 is for the 14t.h and 21 is for April 16th. . 09l)
These usually are prepared within 3 to 7 days , Sometimes
there is a delay in getting telephone logs back from the

,
-13-
\-:C!;It Coast . (192) iExpalanation of prcp,lration of the diaries
and their review by tlesbitt's staff. (192-194) J Nesbitt didn't
compare the diaries with the original source material for
Exhibits 18, 19 and 21. The finished product qoes to l,cst
as soon as it is prepared and xeroxed. (194)
Ex. 20 is the original presidential diary for
April 15, 1973 initialed by Nesbitt this morning. This was
a weekend. It is easier to prepare diaries for weekdays
when everybody is there and the receptionists note in and
out times. This diary was revised on July 26th . (195) After
the initial preparation of the diary, they received the Ens
log. which conflicted with the information received the
Exocutive Protection officer who sits outside the door to
the president ' s EOB suite. Nesbitt remembers trying to check
the conflict On April 23rd . The first indication of progress
came from Buzhardt's office when his secretary called to say
Ehrlichman had been in the Oval Office with the President that
morning, a fact Nesbitt's staff didn't know. Nesbitt ' s
research assistant checked with Thomas Hart in the West l1ing .
(196) By July they came up with a rovised version of the
time sequence in the EOB. There never was any question about
the accuracy of the President's movements . The question was
the precise times of the entry and exits of the people \o,'ho
called. The Executive Protection officer notes when somebody
enters the President's suite, but he can't tell when sornebody's
goes into the President's office, There probably would be no
question about the sequence of callers . {197}
The day \o,'as reconstructed
(rom a memo from Hart on July 24th.
record of the President's movements
from bits and pieces and
'l'hh diary is an accurate
for that day . (198-199)
Nesbitt doesn't recall when he heard from Buzhardt
about the innacuracy of the diary . He does recall
getting logs on visits various people had with the President
and being told that those individual logs had conflicts. (199)
Nesbitt learned from Buzhardt that Ehrlichman had been in
with the President that morning . (200)
This sheet is one of the few times there are question
marks on a diary. On page one thore is a question mark
about the time Ehrlichman began his meeting with the Presidenl .
Hart , who was responsible for getting the to church,
knew Ehrlichman \o,'ent in, probably about 10 : )5 . (20l)The other
question mark is at 2 : 3!l, the beginning of the tirr,e Ehrlichman
met with the President . The EPS officer had written down that
Kleindienst and Ehrlichman wellt in to see the President. but
t hir. was wrong . Hart and Sanchez remembered that the AG was
in with the President alone and that Ehrlichman arrivod 5 or
10 minutes later , A question mark is rarely used , /lere it
indicates doubt about the starting time, but not about the
number of people in the room. (202) This is the only time
in the WI! Nesbitt can recall the use of a question mark ,
The unrevised copy would Show a military aide in with the
President for an hour and a half. The version
would not have the pencil markings in connection with
Kleindienst's visit that BU2hardt put on this version . (203)
[Request for the unrevised version. (204)1
Nesbitt thinks it is a coincidence that the revised
version is dated July 26th, the date of the prosecution
subpoena to tho \'oli, (204) The revislon \o,'as based on Hart's
memo to Nesbitt dated July 24th. In 3 years there probably
\o,'eron't half a dozen revisions , (205) !lesbitt doesn't recall
any other question marks. (205)

J
,
_J
-14-
Hart remer..bers the ncccssi ty of 'lettin'l the Presieent
to church on time. The other revision on April 23rd when
they realized the military aiee couldn't have been in with
the Presieent for an hour and a half. [Nesbitt did not deny
and impliedly admitted that oral information without backup
documents is relied on in preparing these diaries . (206-207))
[Request for all supporting documentation and for the unrcvised
version of the April 15th log. (207)} [Equivocation on 3 months
to revise the diary.}
Ex. 19 js the diary of April 14 , 1973. The President
went to his office at 8:44 a.m. There were two phone
calls and then a at 8:55 that lasted until 11:31. Then
there was another phone call. (208) The phone call was in the
middle of the meeting. The next entry shows a meeting at
11:32 with Kissinger for 58 minutes . Then there were phone
callsfollowed by a move to the Oval Office at 1:52 . The
President returned to the Office at 3:55. His first
meeting after that was at 5:15 and lasted until 6:45 . (209)
The President left the EOB office for the second floor
residence at 8:11 .
Nesbitt keeps copies of the Secret Service movement
logs. The logs are typed by the Wf! Signal Board every night
at midnight. During the day the Secret Service notifies the
of every change of location of the President. The EPS
notifies the Signal Board where the President is . The tiJr.e
that is recorded is the actital time of movement. (21lJ
Nesbitt keeps copies of the President's projected
schedule not because they arc accurate but for their historic
significnnce. (211)
The intials on the logs are the people who prepare
and review the logs. (212) Separate logs are ke?t by the
switchboard and by the Signal Corps, the switchboard .
(212) LW on the logs means left word. (313) You cannot tell
from the logs which telephone instrument was used. (214)
The call was intiated at I :42 while the party was
enroute. OK means that at 1:45 the party on the line
and was in contact with the President until disconnect at
1:49. There is no way of knowing from what telephone it
liaS placed. (215) RES means enroute to the residence or that
the party was in his residence .
BENCH CONFERENCE
Ex . 20 represents who saw the President starting
at 12: 09 a . m. Sunday when he talked Haig . All the phone
callo that were on a recorded phone will appear on the tape.
You can tell the location at the time. The President phoned
Ehr1iehman. That's on the tape . The President talked with
l>etersen from 8:14 nntil 8:18 from 8:25 llnti1 8 :26 from
9:17 p.m. until 10:12 . Then the President met \.;!th Dean.
The call with Petersen sho\lld be on the tape, but it hasn't
been checked. The conversation with Doan isn't on the tape.
Tho! tape stopped in the middle of this personal meeting i:1
the EOB [indicatingl, the meeting beginning at 1:12 with
Kleindienst. (216-218)
The 2 tdpes for the 15th and the tllPO for the 20th
are being to the Judge who wants checked by
exports. Ben veniste suggested getting the t &;,e put on after
the tapa on tile 16th removed full. Buzha:-:'"; said it
clearly wasn ' t put on until the 16th. Ben said the
tepe that Petersen referred to in his Senate ";e s timony and
about which has written a letter be covered
by the subpoena. Buzhardt wasn't sure whethe:- a
dictaphone belt. Petersen understOOd the had taped a
converslltion with Deen. Buzharclt said this \<o'as a dictation .
auzhardt agreed to furnieh nnythi ng relevant. i:: the files. (219-20)
__ J
- 15 -
IN HE SUBPOENAS DUCES TECUM ISSUED TO
PRESIDENT RICHARD M. NIXON POR PRO-
DUCTION OF TAPES
Summary of Friday, November 2, 1973
OPENING STATEHENT OF BEN-v:t:NISTE
Many questions arc still ulldnswcrod: who wroto
"Pnrt I" on tho tape box, whother there i$ a "Part II,"
the fact thiilt the April 15 tape box is marked "full"
rather than "ran out," tho revision of Nixon ' s April 15
log on the same day as the grand jury subpoena was is-
sued, whether thero was a mal!unction of the timer.
who had access to the tapea, where the June 20 phone call
was made, access to the June 20 tape, when the nonexist-
ence of the taped conversations was discovered, (225) .
intend to call Bull. Sima. Wong. Butterfield, Petersen,
flig.by, Haldeman, and Nelson (226). We may also have to
call Buzhardt on the issue of the time of discovery (226).
STATEMENT OF BUZHJl.RDT
We came to the hearing on short notice and have had
no ppportunity to prepare a preGentation on chain of cus-
tody (227). If the court desires such a presentation, \.;e
will offer one if given time to prepare it (228).
OF LOUIS B. -- DIRECT EXAMINATION
is a Special with the Secret Service
assigned to the \ihite House (229). Took Nong's place on
Noveriber 26. 1972 . Sims supervised Zumwalt and Baker,
who were technicians (230). Sims supervised the storage
of the tapes, but and Baker did MOst of the actual
putting in and taking out. (231) . Sims ",'as a",'are ""ilenever
4 tape was put in or taken out (231).
Sims reported to ButtoJ:field. who was liaison be-
tween the ltI'hite House and the Secret Service. until But-
terfield left for the FAA in late February or early March,
1973. Butterfield's job was taken over by Steve Bull (231).
Right before Butterfield left the Hhite Hoose, he and Sil:l5
met with Bull and told Bull of the taping apparatus (231) .
The Secret Service was eemoved from custody of the tapes
on July 18 . 1913 (232). At that time . the Secret Service
prepared records on tho tapes (232).
Sims instructions when he took over in 1912,
were that rccords had to be kept of access to the tapes .
Normally Sims would accompany Zuwwalt to get tapes which
were requested, but sometimes ZlIm\ialt went /\lone. The de-
liveries ""era always made to Bull (233). The request
would come to Sims . ,,,,ho would tell ZUm.lalt (233). Sims
did not tell Zumwalt ""hat kind of records to keop. only to
keep some kind of access eecofd5.
On July 18. when the topes were to be turned over.
sims and want to the storage facility and inven-
toried the tapes (233). Listin, was made of the dates
tapes were reJ:lOved and roturned. No ",·ere made,
papers were referred to (234) .
Oval , 3-12-13 mean!) the tape of that date's conver-
sations in the Ofal office. It was given to Steve Bull (235).

- 16 -
Sims does not kno-,.t when Bull ecturncd that tape (23S).
Zumwalt kept all the records. The tapca were kept in a
locked cabinet in a safe room in the executive Office
Building_ Sims and Zumwalt hnd keys (237). The tapes
which Bull would request would be handc<.l to Bull aimos,
immediately (237). Sims would na\,;c no notation of tho
tapes given to Bull, but Z\ll!lWalL would (238). h"hen Bull
returned tapes . Zumwalt would run thoBe that were re-
turned against a R list of what was taken out, add would
ask Bull where a certain tape was if it was not being
returned (238-9) . sims believed always noted
when something was returned. Every return datn is listed
in the log. but no1! all are on the little slips of paper
(239). Sims would ask Bull, every time Bull took tapes,
the tapes were for , and Dull would indicate the
President, but Sims has no knowledge they were really
for the President (240-41).
Bull would always keep the tapes safe overnight
(241). The tapes were taken out at 1:45 pm on April 25
and returned that day at 5 :28 pm. They obviously were
returned for storage overnight, because they were take.n
out -again at am the next day (241) , and were re-
turned at 5,05 pm on May 2.
Sims assisted in the preparat'on of the book (241),
but did not add any substantive inforMation to. that which
Zumwalt already had (2421. The nptes from which the log
was made were kept in a safe-place (242).
One note says G-2S- 73, Suzhardt. remembers baht
on 6-25-73 Bull telephoned him froD Califronia late at
night and requested that the March 20 tape be delivered
to Bt:zhardt for review. Sims called Zu...-: ... ·alt at his hor.:e,
and ZUIIl"",alt rr.et sims at the storage locZltion (2-13) . They
took the March 20 tape out and put it in Buzhardt's
office for hin to listen to. Buzhardt listened to a
tion of it.
zumwalt did not hesitate in prpparing the logs.
He had all the relevant information oD slips of paper (243).
An inventory was made of all the tapes, and the key to
the cabinet was over to the President through
Mr. John Sennerr (245).
sims is familiar with the alarm system at the Hhite
House 307S refers to the od:fice occupied by Jphn
Ehrlichman in the Nest Wing when Ehrlichnan was at the
White !louse.
TESTUIONY OF SINS - CROSS EXAIIINATION
Sims is familiar with the handlir.g of evidence (246-7) .
sims has not t alked to Zumwalt about his testiwDny since
Zumwalt testified (248). Sims did not to Zumwalt
about exhibit 7-A, but X may have to him about the
tining device. T248). Sims did not Zumwalt's testi-
mony per se (250). Sims did if he
how the logs were put togethcc from the scraps of paper (250).
Sims was not aware that there had been .l discrCtpiilncy about
the preparation of the logs (250).
The inventory of the tapes was at the direction
of Buzhardt and Haig, possibly '252) . asked
Sims to turn off the t.ape apparatus a::-.d :'0 turn the tapes
over to them; the decision to ... ·AS his 01011\. (252) .
An inventory was provided to Denllett (:::) .The inventory
r
- 11 -
reflccts all the tapes turned over (253). It does not
reflect all the notations tho tape (253). The
information for the inventory came(off the tolpe box
(253). NOne of the tapes was- liotened to . (254 ).
r ecollects that there were somo in the tapes __
some day ' s tapes not prcsent. Occasionally the missing
tolpe would be filed elsewlwre (255) . Sims docs not re-
call if there were gaps not covered by a misfiled tape
(255) . They weren ' t lookinq for that ; they were only
concerned with listing what was turned over. Sims is
certain that none of the tapes WOSI missing . (255) .
he was concerned only with misting what was physically
present and turned o\.'er (257) .
The inventory was Sims ' idea; he wanted a
i n c(fect for what he turned over to Buzhardt and Holig
(258-9). There were five or six five-
drawer file cabinets of tapes (259) . Sims not
an explanation of why these tapes were turned
(259) . Buzhardt asked that they be turned over (259).
There were several hours delay in turning over t he
because the inventory had to be made (260) .
sims did not sec any of the slips of paper which
comprise exhibit 7-A until July 18 (260). Sims had no
idea before them how these documents were kept (260) .
Sims assisted ZunMalt in preparing the log . He (Sims)
carefully wrote what was on the individual notes onto
t he back of exhibit 1. Sims was careful to include 4_:
t he individual scraps of paper (262) . On one
Zumwa l t made reference to a piece of paper not include;:!
i n e>:hibit 7-A (262) . I t might have beeb to his pocket
notebook (262- 3). Sims doesn't know anything about tr.L
preparation of Zumwalt ' s notebook 1264) . SiDS doesn't
have any specific recollection of what document
r efe rred to on J uly 18, in addition to exhibit 7- A 1264
zumwalt ' s was an unusual means of logging evidence
but not for Zurewalt (265 ).
Sims ini t ialed exhibit 7 on July 17 (265) , and
a sked Zumwalt to do likewise . As to the tapes taken
on June 4, using exhibit 1 as the source of reference,
Sims would say that i f the date of return of these tapeJ
KftlUt was not on a little slip of paper then i:t:XKIUI the:·
were returned on t he same day (266) , This is not con-
s istent · ... i th the r est of exhibit 7 (266-7) .
Zumwa l t woul d c heck what he got back from Bul l
box by box (269) to make sure that everything gi ven
r eturned (269 ). Sims watched him do it . (270).
zumwalt would say Such and such has not been returned
how are you going to secure it (210). Sims ,
ining exhibits 7 and 7=A, sayo they do not reflecl anr
partial returns (270) . Sims then conforms bis testimon
t o the notes , sayi ng that what he took to be a partial
t urn may not have been one (271) .
No was kept of the furnishing of tape recorc:.!.: r
t o Bul l or others (281) . On GK6eOccasion more onE
corder was provided , in case of a mechanical
On June 4, 1913 several recoruors were supplied to Bu':'_
(282 ). Bull didn ' t give any explanation [Dr wh}' he war:-,:.
the extra recordarG (282) . Earphones .... ·ere also provid _
(282) .
On tho evening of J une 25 , Sims got a ca ll f r om
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asking that h< <1 a certain tape (282-83), !lull said he
""I\S in S<ln Cle,- and had to have the tape and listen-
ing device out '.herc (283), Five minutes later S\,111 called
Silns back and said to deliver the tape to Buzharct inr-tead ,
Sims recollects that it was the 20 tope which ".;as re-
quested, but he did not write the date down at the time
(284), The note on exhibit 7-A refreshes Sims' recollect-
ion of the lIolloc06H date, but Simo did not write the note
and does not recognize the handwriting (284), It be
Zumwalt 's handwriting (285),
No one explained to Sims the urgeocy involved (285),
depsite the late-night phone call. Sims called Z= .. ·alt find
asked him to moet him at the EOB. (286), They
arrived at about 11:30; it took about 5 minutes to find the
tape (286). The tape was either Harch 20 or 21. They took
it up to Buzhardt ' s office along with some listening equip-
ment (286), Suzhardt listened to the tape with earphones .
1.ool::1ng at exhibit 7-A, Sims cannot tell what tape was
removed (287). Sims doesn't know "'ho was 1;at the
meeting which was tape recorded (2S7) . The incicie:1t stands
out in Sims' mind because prior to this Sin:s assur..ed that
Bull was the only one who knew of the tapes, dnd 3fter
this Buzhardt also knew. Sims <lnd Zumwalt gave Buzhnrdt
only one· tllpe, They stayed in Buzhardt's office while
Buzhardt lisecncd to a portion of the tape, and the:l they
took the tape back.
Although Sims recollects that the only tape
given to Buzhardt that night was the I""rch 20 EOB tape,
exhibit 7 indicates that the document given to
was the White lIouse telephone tape from February 28 to
March 22, 1973. (290). Exhbit 7 was prepared the
note \/hich is part of 7-A, but the note does not havif
anything on it about the telephone tape (290), Sir:-.s
that Zumwalt must have known what he was doing (291),
and must have relied on somethin9 other than the 7-A
in preparing the exhibit 7 of this incident
(292). Sims changes hi!! testimony to conform to the
written evidence (291).
Sims \',as not always present when the tapes were :re-
turned (293). or when they were logged back in. SL-:-.s did
not log them in himself, and has no independent k:lo· .... ledge
of whether tapes taken out were returned.
sims was advised of a malfunction in the eqt.:ipr..ent
when he took over for Wong and specifically asked
prior malfUnctions (294). He was told that
there was trouble'with a switch or something like
In the cabinet room the manual switch was somett=es le:t
on (295). This was the only Sims
(295) .
The first time Sims was questioned by anY0:le
the Uhite House about the timer on the tape machi:-:.c 0::
tape running out was veterans Day. Sims was at hc:-c-.e
got a call froD Buzhardt asking that he come into
(29(;). Sims triad to call ZumHalt but COUldn't :re ... ;:::-, ;-;_:1,
so he called and asked to in to wo:rr..
2:00 or 3:00 that afternoon Buzhardt asked them
versation Dissing on ono tape might be on some ot:.er -:'!.?e .
Baker said he couldnlt be sure, 1.10 they consulted
tho following day (29G-7) . Buzhardt akked Ilakcr c:-,
Day how it was that a call made fJ;·om the White lIot:£e
not be on tha tolpes, and Balter said it Wouldn't be ":.30..;:1
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if it wasn ' t from a buygcd telephone in the White
House (297). specificnlly askud about a June 20
phone call. and mApril 15 r::OB cOnverSQtion (298). Baker
said that on weekend3 in I;Ihe EOB office the tapes would
rarely be used because of the lack of activity, but that
if there was a lot of unexpected the tape would
run out bcfore the timer switched on the other t a pe (298-
9). The timer switch was set for12:00 1n the norning (299).
Sims got this understanding Daker. doesn't
recall if there was any discussion at the meeting with
Baker and Buzhardt olIbout a IlWI.lfunctioning of the tilT.cr.
Sims discussed this with Zumwalt thE! following day
(301). SilTS pecifically told Zumwalt that the day in
question was April 15, 1973 (301), and the phone call
was June 20, 1973 .
Sims, Zumwalt, Bennett, and Buzhardt were present
a few dollys ago when Buzhardt took exhibits 5 and 6 out of
the storage roor.l (303,. S1I>1:J was not present when Buzhardt
played the t a pe (303). The tape was returned later the
same day (304) . with Sims present . Sirr,s thinks he saw
Bennett log the tapes out, at least /Take notation
(304) . This ... ·ould have been before 10:)0 in the morning of
October 31, 1973 (305) . Sims doesn ' t remember ff both
exhibits 5 and 6 were removed, only that the tape for
April 15 was removed . Sims was not present when the
tapes were returned (306).
Sims doesn ' t relOOn\l:oer margir.g a tape box "Part 1"
or MPart 2.M t306). sims does nOt seeing MPartlM
on exhibit 6 when he saw it a few days ago , but he was not
examining it "from that standpoint . " Sims does not rel:'lcr:Wer
any discussion with Buzhardt about the MPart 1M notation
at the time Buzhardt was asking whether another tape might
exist (307).
TESTIMONY OF SIHS -- REDIRECT EY.AlHNATION
Sics identifies exhibits 2 and 3 and explains that
it is a written summary of what he, Baker, and Zumwalt
had told BU7.hardt on Veterans Day about the telephone
lines at the WHite House and EOB (307-8) .
TESTIHONY OF SIMS - - RECROSS EXAlHNATION
Exhibits 2 and 3 do not relect everything that was
sai d in the Veterans ' Day conversations with Buzhardt (309).
The tape boxes which Sims saw in making the inventory
were the same sizes as exhibits 5 and 6 (309) . but Sims
can ' t say they were all Scotch 290 boxes .
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TESTH10NY OF LOUIS SINS -- REDIRECT EXA!1INl\TION
Sims identifies exh ,ts 22 and 23, the receipts
which he received upon tuU,i1l9 over the tapes on July
18, 1973 (33l) . He also l.dentific5 exhibits 24 - 26,
listings of tapce at Camp David, the Ova l Office, and
the White House telephone.
Tr: WON'{ OF SIMS -- RECROSS EXAMHiATION
Sims was present during the entire time that ex-
hil). t 7 was prepared (335) . ZUllr"'alt did all the transfer-
in. of from 7-A to 7. 5imu was proba bly in-
ventorying the tapes at the time (336). didn't
check ... ·hat Zumwalt had done, and his initio.ls on exhibit 7
only indicate that he was there when it was prepared.
"Two recorders, some on exhibit 22 Ineans that
there was a switch back and forth on the EOB recordings
(337). Sims made this notation after Baker and Zumwalt
told him that there were two overlapping recorders
in the EOB office (338) .
Exhibit 25 , an inventory , was prepared by both
Zumwalt and Sims . The notations "tape lH and "tape 2"
on exhibit 25 were written by Zumwalt (339) . Sima pre-
pared exhibit 22 . Sims tried to follow the notations
on the tape boxes when making his inventory, and if
there were writing on the boxes he would try to put it
on the inventory (339). Sims docs not know if Zumwalt
followed the same policy in hiG inventorying of the EOB
tapes, exhibit 22.
TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN BULL -- DIRECT EXAl-:INATIO:.
Bull is SpeCial Assistant to the (341),
a position he has held for the past six months. Bull
became aware of the tape recording system in late Feb-
ruary or carly 1973 (342), when Butterfield told
him about it . Bull discussed the storage and retrieval
of the tapes with Zumwalt and Sims (342) a few days later.
Bull asked Sims for certain tapes on April 22 (343) .
lie may have asked Zumwalt rather than Sims (343) . Ilia
request for the tapes ",'as precipitated by 4 req>lest f.rom
Haldeman, who had just come from the President ' II office
( 343). Bull does not recall if gave him a list
of the tapes he wanted, or told him orally (344). Sull
got the tapes , gave t hem t o Haldeman, lind got them back .
He r ecalls, getting back from Haldeman nll that he gave
him (344), and returning them to the Secret Service (345) .
Haldeman had the tapas approximately one day. Bull has
no recollection of the Sec.ret checking out the
tapes to him on more t han one day (346).
The next occasion Bull had to obtain tapea was on
June 4 (347) . lIaig told Bull that Nixon wanted to review
certain tapes . Bull got the tapes from cither Zumwalt or
sims (348) . Bull first looked for the spccific conve.rsa-
tions which the PreSident had in mind (348) . He did this
in his office , but then moved to the Executive Office
Building, in a room separate frot:! Nixon's (348). He .... ould
find the specific conversation the Pcesident wanted, bring
it into the President on the recorder, and then leave
(349). Bull I<,'as seeking to find about 20 conversations
(349). but not successful in finding all of Lhcm
(349). Jle couldn't find about two or throe , but. can't
remomber which ones . Bull did not make any invcstiagtion
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all to those \>;ere missing (350). The
listening proecdure took about 10-12 hours. and lallted
until about 10 at night.
Tho next occasion ... ·hen vas Bull arrangement!!
ver the phone for Buzh3fCt to l isten to a (350).
liull did this at Haig's (351). Bull telephoned
Sims or Zut:lWalt and. as;';e;i him to make "' .... ailable to
Buzhardt II:IlIXJII.I[kax. a t3.:;;.e which Bull no .... !;lelieves . with
his recollection by recent newspaper accounts,
was of a March 20 convers.!ltion ()51). Bull W.;JII
by the Senate Select 'tt.cc earlier this year. and
hazarded a guess that tr.e tape might have been of a con-
versation around April IS, but he repreatcdly qualified
that answer before the and said that he really
didn't )t;now what the c.a ... ... ·as (352). Bull called Buz-
hardt the night that got the tape and as)t;ed if
everything was O.K. said yes (352).
Shortly after returned San Clerr.cnce in
the middle of July, Bull some tapes for Haldeman (352).
lIaldeman asked for thar. ,,::53) . saying that he \"as rendy
to review the tapes of conversations, and would he
(Bull) check with the P=esident to Gee if it would be O.K.
(353). More than one was involved, but Bull does not
remember the dates (35-1'. 3u11 delivered half to Haldeman
on one day and half on (354). One celivery was maCE
in the guest office of EOB and the other was made to
Larry Higby's The 'tapes were returned two days
later (354) .
The next occasion :::3t Dull had access to the tapes:
was on September 28, ... ·r.e::. :;aig asked hi.':l to get certain
tapes which had been Bull discussed this with
John Bennett, who noxc!! contai::.ing the tapes
(355). Bull did not to the tapes, hut inHtead
carried them to Camp where the .. resident and the
President ' s personal conducted a review of the
tapes (356). The o;:curred on Se.ptember 29 . null
was then told that the :e:cphone c31l conversation was
not recorded. He was ::his by the Preside::.t,-
b y which he 1I',(!ant the ?=esident and no one else (356-7) .
Bull made no effort to if this conversation
might have been on any c::':::e= tape (357) . Bull \"as also
told that the April 15 c:::-.,\;ersation was not recorded (357) .
Dull made efforts to sec this co:wer&ation might
bc on another tape (357,. ::e asked Bennstt if there
might ba another tape that con\'crsation , and
Bennott furnished him ",'':'-:':-. additional boxes, but they did
not contain the convers.'!.-:.:'on (357-8) . "s to tho telephone
convorsation. Nixon saie the time that· it was held on
a telephone which did .. ::avc a devicc (358) .
Nixon said the phone ca:':' been made ::rot:l the WCllt lIall
in the living quarters c: t."le Hhite JiOl:se (359). As to the
April 15 conversation, :::_:: sUUo\ised that the conversation
had not boen recorded the tape run out. there
having been an inordi":!'-:'i! a:::ount of acti'.·ity in the EOB of-
fice on that weekend . No or-e told this . he juot
hypothesized it hirnsel: :::-. Septer.-ller 29. the April
15 tape ran out in (360) . President had
nox. comment on Bull ' s (361). The phone call
fron Bull to Shes .::the..:.:.. hear':":-.; the tApe oc-
curred about June 27 .
Bull is shown 5 and 6 identifies Mpnrt
1- on one of the boxes =aving been by him (362).
He placed this notatio:: :::-. :...'1e box on Se?tcnber 29 ( 363) .
thinking that since ran out in ::id .. sentcncc th.J.t
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there was a part 2 (363) . Bull never diccovcred a part 2
(363). null did not make the" exhibit 6, but thlnks
it was made by John Bennett, perhaps on September 26 (364).
The exhibit& on which the appears corresponds to
the "(i)H part of the 5ubpoena duces tecum issued by the
grand jury for the tapes (365).
Bull spoke to about two weeks 4'10 about
the absence of certain convarsations (366). Bull thereafter
assisted Buzhardt in dcterr.linillg the existcnce of these
conversations (367) . lie and Buzhardt worked with the
President ' s daily lag and determined whera the
June 20 phonccall would have appeared on the tape had it
bene taped (368). Exhibits 5 and 6 vcra also examined (368)
to try to fi<;ure out what happened with the }.pril 15 tape
(368) . Bull withE the Secret Service on Sep-
tember 29 what might have happened (366-9). Bull talked
with Zur::walt, but can't remerr..ber anything about the con-
versation other than that it contributed to his hypothesis
(370) •
OF BULL -- CROSS-EXAHINATION
Bull talked ",-ith White House counsel Thurday eUe -
ning, November 1 (371), and r'riday morning. Bull did r.ot
consult any documents to refresh his recollection in the
past few days.
Butterfield told Bull that he (Bull) would be re-
sponsible for the tapes (372), and turned him over to
Sims (373), Butterfield indicated that thc
quality of the recordings from the cabinet not
good. Butterfield said it was a "limited recording
bility" because words would be inaudible
Bull then changes his story somewhat and says that
field only said that he was once looking for a
conversation and couldn ' t find it, which could e::.,.thor
a poor audio system or a poor retrieval system (375). Sull
does not recall an)' COI:'_'1lcnts by Butterfield about the poor
quality of tapes from elsewhere than the Cabinet
(376) . The Secret Servicc discussed ways in which to im-
prove the quality of the systwcm in the Cabinet Room.
Bull has listened to portions of the tapes in
offort to cue them up for the President (377) .
The first request of Bull for tapes came on
22, 1973 or thereabouts (378). To Bull ' s knowledge,
was the first time since Bull took ovcr that anyone a!;;;ed
that a tape be removed from the storage area . Bull is
not sure how he approximated the April 22 date (319), :::'ut
he rocalls it was about a week before Halaem.,n ' s resig-
nation (379) . Haldeman aSked for certain tapes, but
has no recollection of how specific Haldeman's request was
(319) . About 20 tapes were involved (360). Bull has :'.0
documentation relating to this question, During the
4 request for tapes, Bull did make some notations on a
piece of paper as to the conversations he found (380)
Bull left the paper with the President . (381). The
versations \Oo'hich Bull could not find on June 4
would not have had checkmarks next to them (361). On
April 22 Haldo'llan also as1ted for sort of lictcni:-.;-
device (36I), ll.fter talkinq with Haldeman, Bull prob.L":ly
called Zumwalt or and requested the tapes and a
carder (3e21. Bull recall whether he
gave or Sins a list of the requested
( 382) . Bull didn 't tell toher.l on whose authority he
the tapes (383) , and they did not question his authorl."::Y.
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sims or Zumwalt delivered tho items to Bull in Dull's
o!ficc, Uull probably checked the tape boxes against lIal-
dCf'I'an's request (383). Bull says it is fair to assume that
this checking process occurred on and not in his
head (384)., but it is not his best recollection that he
had a list (384) . lie did not give ZUll'Wdlt or Simll a receipt.
Bull doesn't know if there K is a log like exhibit 7 which
shows the ins and outs of the tapes since July lB. (Parker
believes there is such a list and pron'ises to produce it'/>
Buzhardt says there is such a list and he will bring it
Tuesday morning) .
Dull delivered the tapes in a briefcase to Haldeman
(392). The tapes had arrived in Bull's office ina brief-
case. Bull doesn't specifically remember looking in the
briefcase when he received it and making an inventory
(393--this seems inconsistent with his earlier
Bull delivered the tapes and the to Haldeman di-
rectly, in Haldeman 's office (394). Bull does not re-
member if he or Haldeman counted the tapes at the time of
delivery or if Haldeman looked inside the (394).
Haldeman indicated he was going to review the tapes. Bull
recalls that the tapes were returned within a day or two ,
and he returned them 3tO the Secret Service (395). Bull
picked up the stuff in Haldema.n.'s office (395). Bull docs
not DCall exactly when this happened but is sure that Hal-
deman at least had the tapes overnight. Bull has no recol-
lection of having given the tapes to Halde"'-ln and then get-
t ing them back four hours later , events which exhibit 7
showS (396) . Bull doesn ' t recall two deliveries two
returns of the same tapes (396-7). Bull believes he re-
turned the tapes wither to Zumwalt or Sims (397). but it
might have been to some other person who worked for them,
whose namo Bull docs not recall . Bull can't describe
him (398), but it might or might not have been Baker (398) .
Bul l can 't be sure that the tapes he got back from IIllldeman
Io,'ere the samc tapes he dcliveredJr: to Haldeman (399), but
Ilc "has no reason to believe thllt they were not the same."
Not having listened to the tapes, he can ' t say they were the
same , though . Bull can ' t even say he received the same
number of tapes back from Haldeman that he gave him (399) .
Bull would not have questioned Haldeman, but would have
assumed that Ilnldeman would return what he was given (400) .

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Bull has no of any withdrawal of tapes
between the time he mentioned and June 4th . On June 4th lIaig
called Bull and said the President "l'Ould like to c;o through
the exercise or 1oI0dd like to review the tllpes; he ".'Ould like
to review a series of convcrS.:ltions and Bull should ,·;ark with
the President in that Bull doesn't reedil going into
the President for instructions at that time because Bull was
in the WIt and the President had moved to the EOB, but at some
point Bull lias given a sheet of paper that listed a series
of conversations. Haig probably gave the paper to Bull. It
could have been from Zeigler . It \0"<\8 a typewritten Ust.
(400-401) Bull probably received the list a half hour or
an hour after lIai9 told Bull the President wanted to hear
some tapes . (402)
Regarding the April 23rd delivery, Bull doesn't
recall ever telling anyone he had recelved only 5 or 6 tapes
then and delivered only 5 or 6 to Ha l deman. Bull recalls a
l arge number , about 20 . (402)
Bull remembers the date June 4th in connectiOn with
that incident because of a Time article that said Bull
contradicted the President. Bull was told the ante June
4th, but he checked no independent documentation. (402-404)
On that occasion Bull had a list of conversations.
He went through the list and made check marks or ' .... rote NA
for not available if he couldn ' t find the conversBtion.
Bull doesn't recall how many conversations the President
revie ... ·ed but it was quite a few. (405) Bull must have
called Zumwalt or Sims and read the list of tapes by date
and location . (406) There probably were 20 tapes . They
were delivered to Bull around 9 or 9:30 a . m. Bull began
trying to find the specific conversations. (407) Bull
up a conversation on the recorder then took the recorder
across the street to the President where he placed the recorder
on the table in the President ' s office in the EOB. Bull
indicated which conversation the President was about to hear .
lie moved his operation to the President's outer offiCE! to
avoid walking back and forth across the street . Bull ended
up working with 4 machines outside . (408) The President
buzzed Bull whcn it was time to come in with the next
conversation. They started going down the list chronOlogically .
The President recalled the substance of certl:lin conversations
and found it unnecessary to review them, or Bull might be
having some difficulty in obtaining a and the
President would say Hl1ell , let ' s go on to the next one." null
doesn't think they slipped around too much . (409) This took
clOGS to 12 hours. null would rewind the tapes and then put
them back in their boxes . He probably checked each off on
his list. Bull doesn ' t recall which date he started skippi ng,
but WllS probably told to skip when he reported to the
President he was having difficulty finding some conversation.
(410) Bull didn ' t makc any note other than marking NA. This
probably happened on 2 or 3 occllsions. (411) None stand out
in Bull ' s mind .
Bull was at David listening to the April 15th
conversation when it trailed off in the middle. He speculated
that there must be another tape. He probably didn't write
part 1 until he found out there was another tape box that had
dates this period . Bull doesn ' t recall whether
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he \o,·as asked on Jur:e to find the April 15th tape or
whether he heard the conversation run Ollt on June 4th . (412)
Bull belie\'es the WH recording sj'!item was in place
on June 4th when tr.e President was listening to the tapes.
8en-Veniste suggested that the June 4th tape might be helpful.
Ex. 7 shows that tr.c April 15th tape was in
batch checked out c:-. June 4th (items 22 and 23 on Ex . 7). (414)
Buzhardt has no aut,.."'."rity to hand over addit:lonal tapes.
The tape of June 4t..": was not among the 9 subpoenaed tapes. (<lIS)
After Bul:' on June 4th, he returned to
the President the of tapes . Bull recalls no conversation
with the President about the tapes marked ::A. (416) Bull
doesn't know if the :'ist still exists. Bull didn't follow
up on the conversat:'ons he couldn't find . (417)
On June Haig, who was in California, called
Bull and asked if was a courier flight available that
could bring a tape Bull found out that there was
no plane going out official business. Ilaig called back
and told Bull to with the TOS to ha·Js Duzhardt
listen to certain c=:-:versations . (417-418) Bull didn't azk
Sims to arrange to it flown to California . Ilull isn't
sure if he talked ... Sims or with Zumwalt. That is the
first time Buzhardt. access to the tapes. (419) Bull has
no recollection what. tape Buzhardt lintenea to. 2 days ago I
null saw a of a WB press briefir.g. It related
to a report that told the Senate that Buzhardt listened
to the April 15th when pressed to give a date . (421)
Bull has no recolle:t.ion which tape Buzharct listened to , but
Bull has been told :.::. was the tape of 20th. (422)
Bull told the staff in a secret session that he guessed
Buzhardt listened ::.: the April 15th tape. There was
no reporter, but Le:-:::ner and Armstrong have been
taking notes. Bul:"5 recollection on 1st probably
was better than his ?resent recollection. (426)
Bull ' s i;o;·.';:.lvement ended wi th r1aiting the arrangements
for Buzhardt to hea= the tapes and didn't include reporting
on the cOntents. doesn't know the urcency for the)
arrangements. {427
IUpon ad:='-J.rnment Bull instructed not to discuss
his testimony with "-'yone . (429) J
At a conference Ben-Veniste explained that he
wasn't demanding of the June 4th tape but simply
suggesting that it be helpful. (430)
.•

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P:l£.SIDE:'.:I' H!C,;,'dD :-•• ,OR ':';::0-
Ul'':. 0:1 OF l.""£5
!·:<Ony still un':l.ncwcrad ; ,;ho Wt"otc
"l'art r- on til" tllpc: box. "'hellier there is il "Part II,"
the fact tl.;:lt ,\p:-il 15 t.!?d bex is Il'.arkcd "full"
than out," the revision of l\ixon ' s ),!>ril 13
109' on the Sllr:1::l c! a y ilS tl:c sra :'!d jury ;H'!lpcena ... as 15-
suaa, there il r..1\lfunction of thc
""ho had ace.::ss to t.he tapes , the June 20 phone c«11
\·;as mac!l;:, access 1;.0 the Jur,Q 20 tllPC, the
enee of the taped con'.rcrsations discovered, (225) .
1;0 intend to call Sull, Sir.tS , I':ong , Butterfield, ?ctarsen,
Bigby, Haldeman, and l\e1son (22(;). \\'e r,ay alt;o hll.ve t.o
call Buzhardt on the issue of the of discovery (226).
STA"EZ·:l:!':'l' OF BUI:HARDT
\"Ie can:e to the hearing on short notice and havl:! ha<1
no ppportunity to preparQ a presentaticn on chain of c.!s-
tody (221) . If the court desires such a presentation,
will offer one if given til:ll'! to prepare it (228).
TESTn:OIlY OF LOUIS B. SIMS -- DIRi';CT
Sims is i\ Special n",ent with the Secret Service
assi'med to tho Nllite House (7.7.9). Took l,ong ' 'j ph.co 0:1
!\oveT7l0er 26 , 1:)72 . Si:r.s superv!l:ed !lulI7,.;alt and Oaker,
who .... ·ore technicians (230). Sims suplu;vised the stol.:.c;;e
of the tapes, but ZIl.'l:",,·alt and Dakar did most of the actur.l
puttin9 in and taking out . (231). was whtJnc\'or
a tape .... ·as put in or taken out (231),
Sins reported to Butterfiold, who .... ·as liai'Jon be-
tween tho House and the Service, until sut-
terfield left for the }:'N. in l.lte February or early
1913, Butterfield's job taken Over by Steve Bull (7.3]).
Right before Butterfield. loft the 1':h1te House, he <inc! Si:!ls
I'l!lt with Bull and. told B:.lll of the tapins a!,paratus (231).
The Secret Service ""as eemoved from custody of the taFcS
on July 18, 1973 (232) . At th<lt the Secret
prepdred records on the tapes (232) .
Sims instcuctions when he took over in Kover.oer, 1917.,
were that. records r.ad to kcpt of Lo the tapl;.3,
lIOrT:".all}' Sir..s .... ·0\11d acco"'pan¥ ?'ui:,\;1\lt to get tapes whi<.:h
but sOJ:'.etimcs 2u;-.atlt ",ent alone . 'r;le de-
liveries w ... ru ah",ys L.'1c!e to j·le. Bull (233). The 1:C'l"")iit
C010le to Sir.;s, who 'Iould tell .. ;-'llt (233) . sil,'s
did not tell what kind of r"cords to keep , onh' to
keep SOl1\? /;ind of access 1J00cofds.
On 18, when the tapes uere to be turned over,
Sil'lS and :!·.Ir:.,·alt ,,'cnt to th,:!; storl\c;!e and inven-
tod.ed the tapes (2::'3) . r.l9tillg ..... al> n:ade of the datc::;
tapuIO k'u!:"O t'.lr,lQVl<d dnti ·t'JCnl'u. No were maatJ.,
p.lpoes wcr() reCc.n:..::d .. 0 (23·1).
av,,!, 3-12-13 ",(lans ::'ho tdPO of that uate ' s COllver-
&atio:1s in tile Of'al offien. It ""<loG 'ili','en to Steve Bull (235).
l
- !( -
sins docs not knc\; \,·11o:.>n B'.11l cetulTlu Lh"t tape (2:':') .
Zuh· ... · ... lt }:e,t ,111 tl:e '1'1.0 titre:; "'cre i.l ,1
lockad c(l.bir.llt in a r(;om in thn 1:>;ccuth··,
building. 3il1s c;rd :::u::l\<o'i!lt h.ld ';:"C5
Hhich Bull '.'."ol·.l.d bg to Sull .. ,;)$t-
(237). Si;cs u":,:e no not<ltion of
tapes (Jiven to BI,11, but 2u; .. /alt \l01l10 (238) . I\'!l",::' !lull
l'eturned tapes, ZU",",,-ult would run those thdt ... ·cre ;()-
Il.\lainst a R list of what .... ·as t.<'"_':en out , ec! ,",ollid
ask Bull uherc a ccctain tape ... ·/l5 if it "'as not !;-'lo!:-:g
returr.cd (23!!-9). f,!!;.s Zu:".,'alt al'.:ays :"\':-:'1'd
wh(>n sonet.hinq wc;s retu)'n,,1 , }:very retlun date is
in tho log, but all are on little slips 0:
(239) . Sirr.s would as); null, £lull took
I-;ho the tfl.:?os "'oro for, a.nd Bull .... 'ould indicate t:_l!
Pr.:!sidont , but sir.,s has no knowlo\!ga that they ..... e::"! reall:r
for the :">rcsidant
Bull Hould alloo'ars kcep tllC tllPOS safe over:1.:'
(241). Tho tapos .... 'ere taken out at 1:,,5 pm on 11,::-:1 25
and retllrned that O<ly at 5: 28 pm. They obviously ,,-=e
returned for storage overnight, bacause they :I>j.(en
out il9ain at 11;0" am the next day (241), and wera re-
turned at 5:05 pill on l':ay 2 ,
Sims ass i sted in the preparat40n of the (241) ,
but did not add any substantive infort:\4tion I,·hich
Zumwalt already hao (2,,2). The nptcs from which 109
\las made were kept in a safe-place (242) .
One note says 6-25-73, Buzhardt. Sims l:.b.bt
on 6-25-73 Bul l talephoned him from Cali<!1ronia 1",:;. .. at
night and rcquc:::ted that the !-:3rch 20 tape be oeL.
to for review . Sims called at hi" .:ome ,
and ... lt rr.et Sir.1s at the stol:a'Jo location (243 They
took the ;·liU:ch 20 tape out and put it in Buzhardt i
office for him to listen to , Duzhardt listened to PCI;) -
tion of it .
ZUM\oo'Qlt did not hes itate in prpparing the 1':;-3 .
He had all the relevant information 013 slips of (243) ,
An inventory lUIS J:'Iade of all the tapes , and the to
the cabir.ot .... as tllt:ned ovel: to the President
Mr. John Benne!:!: (2(5) .
Sims is familiar with tho alarm system at t::.: "hite
House (245) . 307S refel:s to the office occupied :p!ln
Ehrlichman in t.he \:est I"ing when Ehrlichman .... as ll.':-
\"ihite House ,
TES'l'U:ONY OF SHlS - CROSS EY.A!-1INATION
Sims is familiar with the handling of {2';f.j-7}.
Sims has not t41kod to about his :-ince
ZUr.':'n'alt testified (248) . Si..1S did r.ot talk to Z'.:..7_', l-:.
about exhibit 7-A, but); nay h4\'e talked to him :he
device , T2(8) . Sims did not discuss ZUr:I"·:S:':'s lnsti-:-
r:lOny per se (250), Sir.ts did ask Zun .... ·alt <Jbout ii -. 1 ·c,,11 ... <.1
how the logs "·"'1:12 put togeth=o from the scraps 0: U· (2$1)) .
Sir.ts was not al,'arc that then! hnd been a !. ,bellt
the preparation of the logs (250) .
The inventory of the l"pes was dono at the ._
of BuzharJt ani!. Ea.iS , pO:;5ibly (252). 7h;;:y 'r(';.
Sims to tut:n of f the t.ape apparntus and to turn 1;"
over to them; the docision to inventory I,as his c'
An inventory ...... "s provieod to Bennett (252) , The i:
.. ,'1''13
'. (1'.2) .
- 17 -
all Vires turll'·,l "-,"'r (253). It ,:' 's r,ot
raih·ct .111 the lli)t;atic.ns on ll:<.! l. ... ' -ja
i:1ror ation !or t1:e <.:. ( tho:> hox
(253) , 1\O;lC of t:.:>:-O:>s \ "ll lilt,'n-d to , (2',,:), .silO"
that t)-;crc \:(re some' <j r:; in ',he t :,e-s .. -
sone d·,q ' s not prC':>ent " 0,",',1,' ',I'.,,,:lly i.h") I ,i
tayG \.0'J1d he (i1"d el"cwh .... l· .... (2:,.:;'). <':005 ::ot. rc.-
call if: thar .... v .... z:a gays 110t cov",:-ed !.>y a r..isfilE:d t,.,,,
(255) . t locking U" thq" ,",,,re only
\'"ith listing \':,15 0\'';'1:. is
cert"in ::1-.<'1.::' none of th::J t;ll'':!S (2:'5). '>1.1t
he ...,as con.;arned only with mistin') ",:-a.:tt ·, .. as p:-'J-sically
and turned over (257) .
The i::vcntory , .. as Sins ' idea; he ",'anted a recei?t
in offect :or I.'!-\,!t he turr.('d ovvr to t.nd 1l1ig
(25a-g ). ..... .. 't.(!ly Ci',e or six fivol-
dra .... ·p.r fil<) cabinets of t"PC5 (2S9), Sir.!s \,at> r.ot given
an <;n:plilna.t::'on of \\"hy theca tai)C5 to.o,;! turned over
{ 259) . asked that they bn turned over (259) ,
There sever.:ll hours del"y in turning over the tup05
because the inventory had to bo m.:ldo (260) .
Sims did not sea any of the 51 ips of paper whi.ch
comprise 7-A until July 18 (260) . Sims had no
idea beloro;) them how these ciocu;;,ents ... ·erc kept (260) .
Sins llssis':.o!d in preparing the log . He (Sims)
carefully what I-I«S on lhe individual notes onto
the Gli b.-l.c:< of exhibit 7 . Sins \,'as careful to include all
the indill'ic:.:al sc!:aps of paper (262) , On one occasion ,
ZUrn\>·alt reference to a piece of paper not included
in exhibit (262) , It might beeh to his pocKet
notebOOK Sins doesn ' t kno',1 unything ilbout tho
preparat.i.o:: of ZUI'l' .. :alt's notebook (264) . Sims doesn ' t
have any recollection of what document
r efer red to on July 18 , i n addition to exhibit 1-A '(261)) .
Zwr,l"alt's ·· .. ;:.5 a n unusual means of 109ging evidence (264) ,
but not fc:::- '-:um""alt (265) .
Silt.B :"::':titialed exhibit 7 on July 17 (265), and
asked ZUIr.\o .. :":. to cia likewise , As to the tapes taken out
on June _sing exhibit 7 as the source of reference ,
Sims would. say that if the date of return these tapas
t(ElJ:R was r.!:":. on a little slip of paper then itX">ldB they
were on the SdmC- day (266). This is not con-
sistent wi-;.:. the rest of exhibit 7 (266-7) .
ZUTtl.·J.:-: .... ·ould check. vhat he got back from Bull
box by box :169) to make sure that Everything given was
!:etul"ned 1:::-), Sims him do it . ( 270 ), Sor..atirr.cs
.... c'.,:", oay such and such h1l,!l not been returned c.nd
how are yc'.: -;-oing to secure it (270). Sims, .ufter-.exam-
ining exhi:;+":.s 7 and 1:.A, !;iays they do not reflect ilny
partial re-: _:-ns (210 ). Sims then cO:'l:or;;'ls his testimony
to the no':.!!, saying that I.·hllt he took to be a Fartial
turn r..ay l:C:' have been one (271) "
No 1,.:-- ",;C!S kept of the furnishing of tape rccol:d.tr'J
to Bull or + :.!lors (281) . On "':I.::,occ3sion more than or:a re-
cordor \,·a,. :ovieed , in caso of a mechanical failure (282),
On June 4, several recordo!:3 I.·"re !lupplicd to Bull
(2B2 ). Bul_ . ':"dn't give explanation for why he wolntL'd
the extra .;: ( 282) . \,:arc also provid.:d
(232) .
On evening of June 25 , Sir..s got a call Irom Sull

asking H",!:.!':c plll.1 .:t tape PS2-CiJ) . [lull !;ilid r,e
\"':50 in S":1 Cl',It.cnt.!! a:,d had to h,;<vc tho t !'Ie "'nd listG:'.-
i1':9 .::",vicQ out th,"!"c lalet" "1ull c,.lled
SiJ.'i i'!c}: .. nr:l. to c .... li\·cr tho t _:-,:, to DII7;l.,r.dt ,':J.
si.!:"IS )';'0-;:011"'=-'\:5 '11 t it 20 ..
<;.\:0£\:. .... 0, but he <Ill :lC.t \.'ril:.'1 tha l>tc at ti::e
(2::'4) . .h ... :olc ,:,,-, ",;hibit rftfr ... recoll.et -
iO,l of 1,.:-,0 ,", ,,- -,:,: but r.i;:'l!) din r.ol: write the
and t:CO?!; nol: reco',nize Lho !':,'nC;w:.:-iting It be
Zu::-.... ,llt ' s h.:.r:d:.:riti:1g (285) .
1\0 or:e (!xvldn'!'d to the urg€:llcy i:wolved (2B5),
d",psiLe tho l.;;tc-night p:,c.ne c.1l1. called Zu:-:-.."alt and
hi!'- to l':lect )-,;.:-:1 ilt the !;'b',:;';:::: £03. (286) . '::,ey
arr:'::Id at at.out 11:301 it look about 5 minutes lo rind the
tape (21)6) , The tape \,'au either /':':l1:ch 20 or 21 . They tooi:
it up to Buo:hardt':; office along with SOf.:e lilite-ning cquip-
(226) . Suzhardt listened to the tape with earphonss .
at er.hibit cannot tell what tape was
removed (287) , Si:c,s doesn ' t know who was present 1::at
ltceting \>'hich \o,'as ta9c rdcorded (287) . The incident stands
out in Sir.:", , r:1ind bCColl.:se prior to this Sill".s assu;;-,ed tl":.at
B\lll was the only one "'ho of the tapes , and after
this Buzhardt also k:-::ow . Sill'.s and gave Duzhardt
only onc- t<lpe . 'rhey stayed in of fica while
Buzhardt Ihtlened to a portion of the tape , and then they
took tho tape back.
Sir..s clearly recollects that thG only tape
given to Buzhardt that night lIas the. !-iolrch 20 EOB tape ,
exhibit 7 indicates tholt the given to Buzhardt
was the I-illite Hou:;;e telophona tape fro"" rcbruary 28 to
22 , 1973 . (290) . J::xhbit 7 was prepared from the
note which is part of 7-1\ , but the note docs not hava
anything on it about the telephone tape (290) . sir..s says
that Zur..;alt r.lust have knolm what he \I'as doing (291) ,
and must have retied on Sot"athing other thall the 7-A note
in preparing the exhibit 7 of this incident
(292 ). Siu:s changes his testimony to conform to the
wriLten evidence (291) .
Sims I:as not all<>'ays present when the tapes I<>"ere re-
turned (293) . or when they \o,'ere logged ba.ck in . Sir.-:s die
not log thorn in and has no independent knowledge
of ta?Orl taken out were returned.
Sims ',,'as advisee of a malfunction in the equipr::ent
when he took over for \';ong and specifically asked about
prior malfunctions (29 4 ) . He I<>'as told that occa5ionally
there \oo."olS trouble with a sl<>'itch or sor::ething like that.
I n the cabinet room the r.l1lnual s· ... itch sor.etimes left
on (295) . This was the only "m.'11function " Sims rer::er."ibers
(295) ,
Tho first tir.-.e SiJ:ls lola:; questioned by anyone from
the White !lOllse about the tiln3r on the tape machine or t:-_e
tane running out w""s Vetarana Day . SiJ:ls \o,'as at hor.:! and
got a call frQ::l Suzhardt asking that he! cOf:'la into tho office.
( 296) , Sir.s tried to call ZUJ:,,:alt but couldn ' t reach him,
so he called Uflker nnd ,l!:lked i,im to co:nc in to work . " .. ound
2 : 00 or 3:00 that them if a con-
versation missing on onG tapti might on IOOI'\C other tape .
[';;":'or ,:aid hC3 cOI.lldn}t :0.1. £'".1.<> , :;0 con:5ult..;:d tL, •. ,,"\lt.
the following day (29';;-7) . BH.:hardt aJ:ke.d Bilker on
Day 1":.0 ... · it 1.",5 t.hat a call Jr",do fro::! the Illiite liouse .... ould
not be on tapos , [nd Dakor said .i. t 1<>'0\11dn ' t be t"pcd
J
.J
, -
., -
if it ,:l,,:1't a "_F:lOr.a In U:C' ';) itc
(2El;). "utl1 .. !:c!; ._ c;,';i.:,-11r ",out '- JL.:e 20
("-11 .• .!:".d n7·,:,rll '5 r:0'3 ron""l-s,,',ion -;,l':er
s:l.ii th"t; 0:1 in l03 t:]\) t<";: ,,; ",:>\'ld
l·.lrcl/ t:.'·,j )'O<::;-,::;C ·)f t' ) .;:" 0:1: >,o,;tivity, 1.u1;
if tl":..,rc 1: .. 8 a lot of I.. •• ' <..: aut::'viLy ,:;0 t • ';1'o'11rl
n:n o'Jt the ti:.cr cwitch:!d on t:1C (.olh"r (2)£-
9). ti:h.'r sW'itc:'l w: .. .::!t for)_2:00 in the I..OL·n;.r. ...
SiH'S '.lot thi::: l:;:-.!-:'l::>t<mdir.g fL." .3 ,;..,r . ":<Jl!ln't
r.!c"ll if tt::n'.! 11',':; ,,;;y discl:.",'livn a.t U.e ::'J 'lith
Baker ;;!"Id Bu' :"u:dt a of t;.i':-;!("'
5i1':'.5 di;;cu!;;sed H,is './i i:.h ZI.! ',;';011 t the day
( 301 ). peclfically told Zurc:.-Io.lt th"t th'!:l day in
question ·.:<:.s April 15, 1973 (301) , and tho phone call
June 20, 1973 .
Sims, XUJ:"'.,·alt , Sennett , and 8uzhardt ".;ere prasent
a days il',!O ... ·hen Bm:hardt took exhibit:::; 5 <lond 6 out of
tho stora.;e rOOM (J03, . ".:;o:s not present ... ·han Buzhardt
played the t<lopC (JOJ) . Tho tape was returned later the
same day {304) . with Sir.'i!l present . Sims thinks he saw
Bonnett 10<,1 the tapes out , 01: <lot least rr.akc soma notation
( 304 ). This \,;ollid have beon 10;JO in the Il'orning of
October 31, 1973 (305). Sims if both
exhibits 5 and 6 were removed, only that the tapa for
April 15 was removed. Sir..s not pre:::;ont ... ·hen the
tupe:::; .... ·ere Tcblrned (306).
sil:.s doosa ' t rCl"lOnber rr.arl5ing a tape box "Pdrt 1"
or "Part 2 . ( 306) . Sir.3 docs not remember scei:lq "Partl "
on exhibit 6 he s<:\J it a f(.·.-/ days 1190, but ho was not
eXilrninin<;l it that standpoint." Sims docs not
nny with Buzhardt about the "Part 1" notation
at the timo. Buzhardt asking whether tlllother titpe ni9ht
cxist (307) .
TESTIJ.:ONY OF SI!-$ - - RI:OlRECT
Sims identifies exhibits 2 and 3 and explains that
it is a \{rittcn summary of .... hat ho , Baker, and
had told Buzhardt on Vetorans Day about the telephone
lines at the Ifflite House and EOn (307-8).
TESTI:·:ONY OF 51:·:8 -- RECROSS EX:\!·:1IIATION
Exhibits 2 and J 00 not relcct evorything that was
said in the Vetorans ' Day convcrsationn with 3uzhardt (309) .
o;h& tape boxes \ihich Sims saw in 1:UI.lcing tho inventory
were the sar..c sizes as cxhibits 5 and 6 (309) , hut Sims
can ' t say they \lere all Scotch 290 boxes.
r
'"", 1 ;y
, I
SIr l ir'! 'li.t,:;;(2 ., C\ '3, .J l- .), ';.,:->t3
.;hieh i,,,- r:e.-':cv,_. .,l 1::}:1 ;(l;- 1 ': _. <:):1
18,1:173 (331). 0111'0' _,:lUfi s -
I1o.ti;:-:;3 of t:. •• 'J .. t (.; . P .vid. \.71 '., (t."l , an(\
0,(: ;.:: t,e ,:' ;1:-".
Si::5 w;;;.s pr 1: "' i.-e ti. th .. t ;;. .. ;-
hibit 7 'r' ., Lb) . ,alt (1'--1 11 1 r'n,l".
ing of frem 7-A LO 1. 3i1." ,'a:; ir.-
\'cn'.a",yi!;'J .it t·.J lir 1 (J3S) . lii.:,,'t
ehe-cit Z1.:.--:.&lt h,ld d· , 0.:..1 l"s t.,'ctials 0:'1 e>:hihit i
only indicate t(;at ho '.,' S ",':. :l it I'-.S pr:.J.l,l."cd .
""m'o ov'-'rlilp" on 22 th",t
thE:re I- _s d ' ... ·itch }, .nd forth 0_' EO!) rr:;corail,'is
(337), nle t;l.\" nOI:"tion ",fter 3,,-kcr c:ld 1.1,:'1,\;.llt
told hi;;,. th.'tt there t .... 'o overl<li-'ping recoruors
in the BOB otfice (33&) .
Exhibit 25, an inventory , was prn;:ilrod by both
Zm.r .... llt and Sim. , The not",tions "tapa illld 2"
on e:-.;hibit 25 """0 written by Zu .... ,'Jlt (339). Stme pl.'e-
ptlred exh.lbit 22. Sims tried to not,ltio:1e
on the ho);es rl' • .;king his and if
there wcro writil:q on the boxt;ls he \,ould try to P:Jt it
on tho inventory (339). SiMiJ does 110t know if Zurr:.,·a1t
follo',,',"d the sane policy in his inVp.:ltorying of the 1::03
tapcs, exhibit 22,
TESTI":O!<j'i Ok' STEP)!lON BULL -- DIR1::CT
Bull is Assintant to thp.
a posl.tton he htls held for the P,Hlt six months . Bull
be.ca'flc ...... are of the tape rocording system in lato. Fob-
ruary or early ::arch, 1973 (3<:12) , \"hen Batt(lI:field told
him about it. Bull discussed thc storage and retrieval
of the tapcs wit.h .... alt and Sims (342) tI !c·'" dtlys later .
Bull aSked Sims for certain tapos on April 22
lie il'.ay have asked .... tllt rather than Sir.:s (343) . His
request for the tapes was precipitated by il request (rom
lIaldelnlln, who had just COr'lO from the l?residant ' S offica
(343) . Bull does not re0311 if !!i! 16<)'.:.n gtl\'e him a list
of the taFes he "'anted, or told him or<'Olly (344). Bull
got the ta?Qs. gilV':: them to ... nd got thc:n back ,
He recalls getting back irO;!l Ealce':'ln all that he gave
him (3';'.1). I'!nd roturning ;;'h(',m to the Secret Service (31,5) ,
Haldoman had the tapeD approximatC'ly O:le day , Bull has
no recollection of the Secret checking out the
tape!; to hi:ll on 101;'0 than one day (346) ,
The llext occasion Bull had to obtain tapes was on
June': (347) , Haig told t.hat :'ixon \<o'anted to review
certain .tapes . Bull got the from. either 7,ul:h'alt or
SiQS (348j. Bull iirst looked for specific
tions I-'hich U',a 'resident h.11l in 0:'8 ). He did thi!l
in hi o office, but then noved to the R.xecutivc Office
Building, in u l."oon I$craratc £rom (348), ac ,,"o'.lld
find the sl'<jcific cOnvers.ltion the P!!esident w"'ntod, ri.r:.g
it into thl;!; "resident on the anti leavc
(31"') , <>'111 .... $ 1:0 20 "")"':';'I::''1.'ti0;'1'':
(34::1), hut ',,,,S not su":c'..s:;,ul in iin(!.ifl(J .)11 of t:-.ee
(349). He couldn ' t find about or tl1ree , but can ' t
rCr:1er.ber which or-cs . Bul l did not 1::.:I);e ilny invcsti.1gtion
J
J
t'" {
11 tc.n;_ .'j -,;T
111,1; 1 ,"l 10
1
e . 1;". t' (..
.,:< It 10 ·12 i. 'l, BL :d
.t 1iSi.t;.
T xt oc;· :l 101 • £1:11 0 r :l - :lt5
0'.,1: ti . ': '._ :O( ._hr .• u:rt. ,':) 1.i • -n ala,..: vj.
",11 -1-;: hi') l "'-'_,; ' '1 :; t -11 ',c;1ed
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"j,s ::;.,,::11(: ' .. :':>11 r ..... :::· ::cd br r, •.•
\-:'s of a ":3.Ich 21) c-:, -:. (351) . .ault "'<IS ,J.
by ',:-." !t I' ta "'nJ'ct c.'·- ltt-::'J '·.::rli.::'C L:lis 1)", lIr.d
t;" .t S'kSS t;:;.t the !c.-l\'Q r.;:C:l of ...
vet" alio!} LCO'-'.:"Ij _";,r11 15, bl_It he
t",at ",'.". r tl;;l ,', .. 'if __ ,,0 and ,,&id )',! roally
df,:", ' \: i:.l;>w \,;nt l;,G .... as (352) . null called ;;:'uz-
i'.;,rdt t'-.;;. ::' . .;;;t.t :;;lzha,..clt <;ot the and if
llvt"'rythin,:! vas 0.1\ . _11;:h .. ::<i"t "aid i:cS {3S2) .
Shortly aCtar :a'wn return 3d fro::J S.Hl ele ;',ce in
the middle of July , :::;ull got ,Ol:"e [or (352) .
HalcG'!;';"'3n askod [or lhem (353) , saying th.lt he \,'<.13 ready
to reviQH the t<l?Crl of certain conversati<:>nrl , and would h3
(Sull) cl:cck Idl.:h the President to !lee if it "'ould be O.K.
(]53). j·:oro th<ln or.e tape ";as involved, but !iull dOC3 :"'.ot
the C;atcG (354). Bull del i\'ered half to l,aldCl"la!l
Oil one day Clnd half on another (35 .. ). 0::0 dclivl'ry was r.ade
ill lhe guest office of the I'.:OB and the other was IT.J.de to
J ... 1rry lli9by ' s home . 't'he tapes were returned two days
l .. ter (354) .
'rhe occ')5ioo that Bull haC. ,1CCOS S to th!! tape!;
was on Scptct.'ber 28, Ilaig asked hi,1I to get certain
tapes Ilhi.:h nad been subpoenaed . Bull di:;cussod this witil
John Bennett, who provici cd DO;';:CS containing tho tapes
(355) . Bull did not listen to the tapes, but instead
carried thorn to Camp David . whore the President and the
rrcsidcnt ' s personal secretary conducted a T.eview of the
tapes (356) . '.Lho review occurred cn Septol7.bcr 29 , Bull
then told that tne tolephone call conversation was
not recordad , He was told this by "ulti;r.ately, the Presid"nt ,
b Y which he meant the Prcsident and no one else (356-7).
Dull made no effort to coternine if this conversation
might have been on any other tapc (357) . Bull ''';;';8 also
told that the l.:-ori1 15 conversation ',;as not recorded (357) .
Dull :nace efforts to seo this conversat.ion might
bo on anothor tape (357). lie askod Bennott if there
be another tape containing that conversation, and
Bennett furnished hir:t \dth ac.citio:-:al but they did
not contain the conversatio:l (357-8) . As to tho telepilO7:C
convors3.tion, Nixon said o.t tho tine that it held on
a telephone \ihich did not have a rccorcing c.evice (358).
lIixon said the phone call had been mace fror.! tile \':est :!all
in the living qUllrters of tho l:hite Ilouse (359). As to the
1.:.',':.:1.1 15 conversation, !)'Jl l surr:1ised that the conversation
h.,d not recorded bQc-.1.use tho tape had r'Jn out, thcra
h .. ving hacn <In inordinato arr.ount of activity in tl":e £,)3 0::-
fice on th.\t (360) . !:o one told him this , he just
it hL:self 0:"1 f--,ptcmbr:r 29. becau.5C:! tl"::l! April
IS tape ran Ollt in (360). Presidont had
!lot; CO)'.r.:cnt on Dull 's (361). Tho phone call
from Bull to Sil:J about hearing the tape oc-
curred about June 27 (362) .
null 5 6 ·par:
1" on <.',,,J u, .;he 1)()._,!5 .. :; " ... ,", .... -.:1 • ... Lll ... "n uy
/:0 placed this notation on tho hox on S .. ptlJ",!)er 29 (363 ),
thinlcin(J tholt since thQ .ran out in id"sentencc thil.t
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.. (i)" f .:;t.: '.If 'J L14: - ,';1:' t:;.l _S
<,:,l!.cl j,,;:-y [oX" ;:0:;' !; (.Jr.:;) .
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<lssist"d. ,,l;I,harjt in .;."'_ he ex! 1 0 t',(-<:).
(367) . He i'1U Bo.l-,h<""nlt • ,r!- d with tJ-,e
s <.lai y 1<::; <;':"IJ 0:::.J1.'-'1 j"i:)(;c """'.=" t.Le -·11
'<:0 :':1,11,_,...,,,11 .... ·cl'ld L :,ro:>d on tho h .. d it
1;'_;:0 t;::_'c-d (31;t,). nd G """1;"" ;Jl'JO (:Y·· .. {):.
to tl.Y to fisut·o C" t : r.cQ -:it;l 1;.:--" IS t-.',:;
(368) . :11 tii.e ,6 ;;.:-..:.rc\:. on
t(:F.b':'r 251 .,,,-.. -Q 1;;;F. __ ;1..,d c:.se-51). ",Ill
Id t:'1 Z"- ,-,-.It, f" .' t ... "9 ftbol.! _ ::,r.e
vc:rz<".tion oth"r that it contribut("d to his :;.is
(370) .
'XETSH:O:-'Y Of' BU1.L -- CROSS-EY.JI1HNNrION
Bull talkcd with \I'hitc Houne counsol 'l'hul'day e>i:o -
ning , Nov,'·.bcr 1 (371), ""n(1 Friduy ICorning . au 11 did
cO:lsult any docull..J.nts to re[re:>h his recoIl ... ,Li.;.n in tt,,}
past few days .
Butterfield told Bull that he (Bul1) would be 1·<1-
sponsiblo for the tapes ( 372 ) , and turn cd hilll over to
Sil.IS (373) _ Butterfield indicated that sOI,loLi; .. ·:! the
quality of the r!Jcordings £rom the cabinet roo:o1 not
good , Butterfield naid it a "limited roeo'c{ling
bility" because sOl!:ctimell \<'ords would be inaudible (310 .
Bull then chdnges his story and that Sutter-
field only said that he was once looking for 1'1 specific
convcrllation and couldn ' t find it, which could ;"lcan e'_:.,;th ...·r
a poor audio or a poor retrie\'')1 SYlltcm (375) . 3\111
docs not recall cOIl'.ments by about the poor
quality of fro,,1 c.lsl;whore than the Cl'Ibinuc. Room.
(376). The Secret SCrvice di(lcuzsed ways in \·,.hich to i:n-
prove the quality of the systuem in the Cabinet Room.
Bull has listened to portions of the tapes in an
effort to cue them up for the PresiC:ent (377).
Thc first reql!est of !lull for tapes carr.e on April
22, 1973 or thereabouts ( 376) . To Bull ' s this
was the first since Bull took o· ... er thaI.: anrone aSked
that a tape be n:r.,oved fro;:! the storag:l .:Irea _ '3ull is
not sure how he approy.im<'tt'ld the April 22. data 1379) , but
hn recalls it "-as ,about '. ,,'oak Haleoll'an ' s resig-
nation (379). Halderr.an asked for certain tOl!'eS , but :;:.111
has no recollection of ho .... spccific I!alecman ' s request ". s
(379). About 20 tapes I,·.arc involved (380) , Bull has no
C:ocumcntation to this c:!uestiotl. the J'.1t1e
" rcqu<!st fOr :lull .::!id (".ke SC!!lC not.ltio:!s on "-
piece of as to the cUl>\rers:ltions he found (380) .
Bull left the papor .. '_1':3 l'residcr.t _ (381) . "he COtl-
verlJutions Bull could not find on June <I prob<-tbly
l'lOllld not. !1dve h'-HI checki!!-:lri';!l r.ext to them On
ApJ il 22 1l..11dc!I<ln alf;o A!lkcd fot· sort of listcni:lq
C:cvicc (3el) . t...:tcr talkin<J ,·:ith Faldc,.,m, pro;;'Jhly
called ZU'I:1tiJ.lt or S1:;-.3 a:ld the ta:ms ..J.:!d " r')-
corder (Z82) . Bull co;)!;n't l·ccall ·,,-ho."!t:lOr he r·hY-3ic.slly
o; .... .:l Z\;.. Ii:. or 0:0 .:>.! _ J. ! .' 1""
(382). null llidn ' t tell t.hO:;,ll o n he ...... .!u
the tape:> (383) , and thay ,lid not C;'.1cstion his luthority.
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brielc;:lI,c I:,(;)'} n,c..,iv .. ;i 'l: '" 1,:/.. • ·"'.OIY
(393--th;s co,",·,,;,; jr:cvl1:;i"c.cTl i:o l!'; !;tl.!::C'i'lY) .
!:ull c:.cliv<!!:cd :-".:J t- s ,,-c' he r· -h ' 1 t." , .. , -'n di·
roclly, in HaltZe,n<Jn ' s u-"fico (3Sl-:) . ,"uII 1Vt rc-
r".!".ber if he or !l.:l!cleoman count_cd the !U: i.e> tj",() 0;:
ci.aliv;>l.-Y or if ll;;l.ldcr..an looi,:.;d insic!:l 1. .... ;<.:.,J.;c (394) .
H<l!dcll:an indicatnd he was going to ::"cvia-,1 L: '-tJcs . Bull
racalls that tho tapes \.;are J::Qtm:l:ed within <'. ... .J.y or tllO ,

alld he returned them Gto the $::ocrct Sc..-vicc :.")5 ). Bull
pickod up tho ,;tu:(f in l!alccrn'n.' s o:(:(ti;o (395), »ull docs
not'; __cO'I)l exactly !':;'r .. ;;.(!ncd but is :"r.! that lial-
dem;'ln at 10('l.[;t had the tapes ovoTni<]ht. '3ul1 no roeol-'
loction of having given the I:05Fcs to '::d then <;jet-
ting them back four hours lat,1r, avant:> I-'hi';;l txhihit '1
oho;is (396), Bull doesn't recall tl,o (jc 1 i vEtr' "!,:; <).nd
returns of the sar:-o tapes (396-7), Bull ho1'. ... --·)S he re '
turncd tho tar>es I-'ither to 7t·· &lt or hut it
ll'Iiyht h::lVC been to SOl'".e oi:.h"r iicr;on ".ho 1;0"':- I!'j for I:h'!lll,
",hosil nama Bull docs not ree"ll , 3nll c<'ln'i;. :!Beribo
him (398). but it might or I'Ii<)ht !loi:. :"'1'0 : ,3,ker (391:t) .
Eull can't be sure that tJ.pc:J he) <.;ot b4C.-... ·'..-or" Hald::n 'l
were the 1;<'.;;10 tapo::; he deliverotd,t to "a1401_:: but
ho "hus no reason to believe that th.')y W'1ro tho sa!!:c ,"
l>:ot huving listened to the tapes , hI! ci'ln't BlI:, they wore the
same , thou<Jh , Bull can ' t even say :\(l the 8"'1:.0
number of tapes back from Haldeman that ho <;J.··a hill\ (399).
Bull \,'ou1d not have !!31c.tlr.'.u.n, l:\:t :u1d have
assumed that Hdldernan would return I-·hat ho '.:a.s given (400) .
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U:"n '!InJ vrr"'d C':lly 5 or 6 .;0 li"1'; m . 13ul1 rec"lla a
lan:;Q n\.:1,1.:.:r, ai'out 20 . ("02 )
Bull the date J\lna 4th in connection .... ith
that ;pcie;":lt of .1 'rime <'Irtialc tbi\t said Bull
canl
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3clictC'd l'rc"j,'·'nt . '3'111 told tJ'c d;;lt(! 1",\(1 vune
4th , b"t ho cl,"c::(']d ':':)I;U
Gn ''t:o t oce,sion s'lll had .l li .. t of COllVIH·S.ltjons .
He went thr()\lyh the 1.5 '-"'it:! ci,o';;-; /tol-':;':S or wrot.e ll:I\
for not 3vailt'-blc if ha couldn't flr.d ccn\·er::ation .
Bull doesn't recall !l'Clny convcrsolt_!.,,"s the Prasicient
but it was ,'uite a (<105) Dust have
cililod Z\lm\o.·nlt or Si.;s and 1'e"d t.he lIst of tap'''s by d<lte
and location . (4.06) 'i'hero prOJ(lbly .... ·orc 20 t;J.pes . They
\o;erc delivered to Bull at·ound 9 or 9 : 30 :>ull boglln
trying to find the specific (407) Bull cued
\ 1(.1 a on tl 8 recorder then took the recorder
;J.cros!! the !.ltn.'et to the President I;here he placed rccon!cr
on the table in tllG Prc!!iclent ' S offl co i n the £OB . Bul l
i ndicilted ,·;hich converSiltion tho i'rl"aidcnt ",'{IS about to
He moved his operation to the Pr('si(,ent ' s outer office to
avoid \>"i'llki..ng back and forth acrosg th.) street . Bull cr:ded
U? ',.oricing with 4 machines out5iri.e . (·lOS) 'Ih ... President
bm:7.ed Bull .... ·hen it 1.1IS tiT.'e to cO::le in 11ith the next
conversation . ';hey started going do·,,'n tho list chronologically.
The President recalled the !>ubstence of c('rtain conversatio::G
and found it U!1!1I:!Ce5sary to review thelll, or Bul l might be
having dilficulty in obtaining a conversation ;J.no. the
Presie,mt lI'ould s",y "Kell , lot ' s go on to the n('xt ono .
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B:.!ll
doc-"n ' t thin" t"l'Iey around too much. Thi:;
close to 12 hours . Bui l '''QuId re-,4ind tlw tapes .:md then rJu!:
them ':;!ck in their box,",,> . He prob.'lbly ,",aeh off on
his list , Dull dot!in ' t recall \o.·h;,ch dolte he started skippi:"!g,
but ',,'as prob1'lbly told to skip \o.·hon he t,"cported to the
President he 1;,1$ having diffi.;;ulty finding sor.'o convers.ltil.i:"l ,
(410) Sull didn ' t lr...tke any note othl'r th'!ln ',hi3
pcc!;_'"ly 3d on 2 or J occasi.onr; . (1l1) l'"one st.lnd out
in Bull ' s .ind.
Bull \\'.15 O'lt Col .p O:\vid 11 lening La the lIpril 1St:'
convers<'!.tion it traited off in the r.i(!dlc . lie spcculat' d
that there i·,Il!t hc another t<lP" , lie probably dien ' t
p;lrt 1 until h(' founrl out lhcru HaS another tllpe bo;.: thill t.:'Id
dates Lhis null d( ,,:;n ' t rcc, 11 I"hcthor
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ellll a:-.d 1 if L:':-:e \'.)'3 ::l cuuri. I" (1 -ht 'lv.,i1, tjnt
could urit.g d :e,.;_ r.:!,:;r . 3\111 :l );1t th.Jt t:,'7'l"C · ... 3
no pl.,lnc t:!ol!:g r:".lt on offici:!;t bu!,iu s. liaig called
and told oul1 to 31:r<::-.-;c with l!)C! 'Ill.: to L .. .vc 3uzh;JJ;dt
listen to cert.,'n (,1)7-·11a) Bull <iidn ' t <15k
Si,.,s to ",1:"" ''o it flo'.'n to c.,li::ornia . null isn ' t
sure if he wit:", Sires or with ;:I:::"·<11t . '.::',,1: is tha
first til"o /:",-1 to t."l_{'s , (419) null ::<35
no rccoll"cth'!l ·"!:i;lt S·.I7:\,ll-dt ." d to. 2 cays '--,,:0
Bull :;I\',) a of 11 \';,l ))1·;::;3 br' : 'n'l ' It I("elat<!d
to .1. rc;,¢rt t!:"-':. 3ul1 ':.old !;en·)tu ttat Suzh.11.-dt
to the ;,::>ri1 " p'-osscd to yiv8: a \lato . (421)
h,:.s .... 0 .. ,:.:',ct.'.?n I<'hich t;J.Po.: list:er.,""d to, but
Bull hos ,,:.:d it..as the ti.lpe of _. ,.:ch 2Gth . (·122)
Bull told .:-.I:c 5 :3ff in .l ';c'crct,('''sion t;H.t he <;Iu <Jed
Buzhardt Ii ;tCI'.J to -_:-_c April 15th t<'P'''. (0' '4) "'hure
no rr!porter , and j};;vo been
ta};:ing nob s . "..111' s Oil r'\:';.i'l:>t probubly
better lha'"!. :'is r:e3cnt Hlcolle(;tion . (426)
Bull' oJ i ended wi I:h i:'.lking the ;'lrrangc; 'nts
for Suzhardt to:: :,ear :;:,0 tapes Ilnd didn't incluC!c reporting
on the contiimts. Bul: doesn ' t know the urgency for the l
arr.!lngements . (-1.27)
{r:!,on Bull was instructed not to
his tcsti:"'O:lY · ... ·.:-:.h a:.:-.:ne . (429) J
;..t a Bcn-Vcnistc explained that ho
l<'i1sn ' t de: :""Iei:,_· of tho June.! tape but sir.-.ply
sU<jgesting that it bo helpful. (';30)
• .j
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TAPE HEARINGS BEFORE SIRlCA
SUNMARY
"' , r I
Tuesday. November 6, 1973 - Morning Session
I rr . II
fits"' rt · r
e
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Ben-Vcniste clarified the dates of the subpoena duces tecum,
indicating that it was not served on July 26 4S had been previously
stated, but rather was served on July 23. The show cause order
was issued on July 26. and according to Nesbitt ' s testimony, the
memo to him Asking for some revisions in the President ' s log was
on July 25. Parker agreed to Ben-Veniste's corrections. (433)
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STEPHEN BULL BY BEN- VENISTE (resumed)
Bull is reasonably certain that he did not give the tapes to
anyone other than Ilaldeman on April 25, and there is no question
1n his mind about it . Aside from his personal knowledge, Bull
does not belie ve he heaed that anyone othee t han Haldeman heard,
saw or handled the tapes on that occasion. (434)
The logs indicate that on Apeil 25, 22 tapes weee deliveeed to
Bull at 1:45 p . m. and eetuened on Apeil 25 at 5:28 p.m., and that
the same 22 tapes were delivered to Bull on Apeil 26 at 11:00 a . m.
and returned by him on May 2. Bull accepts what the logs
indicate , he stands by his previous recollection of one delivery
wh ich was returned by Haldeman the next day . (435-436)
Bull bcgan working with Buzhardt on the unrecorded conversation
last Tuesday (October 30) . Bull recalls testifying on Friday
(November 2) t hat he discussed the unrecorded conversation with
Buzhardt approximately two weeks previous to November 2 but thought
he was now being asked about actually working with Buzha r dt in
an effor t to find the missing conversation . (436-437)
Bull's talking to Buzhardt about the missing conversations -h
appeoximately weeks before November 2 came about because of a
prior conversation with Haig which occurred either on the same
day as the talk with Buzhardt or a day or so before and in
either Haig ' s or Bul l's office. Bull initiated the conversation
with lIaig beCiluse of Bull ' s continuing concern over the matter
of missing tapes and not in preparation for any tapes disclosure
or court proceeding. Bull told Haig something to the effect that
hc had familiarity with the mechanical procedures which were
followed when the President reviewed tapes on September 29 and
might thus be of assistance to Buzhardt . Ifaig indicated tha t
Bull sho uld contact Duzhardt. (4 38-440)
Bull contacted Buzhardt but what ensued W6J; more a nlOnologue
than a eonveraation . Bull had asked Buzhardt whether he was
familiar with the reasons which Bull could offer as to why the
two conversations might not have been recorded, and Buzhardt
had indicated that he was . Bull ' s interpretation was that Buzhsrdt
knew that Bull had been unable t o find the two conversations ,
bu t at that t imo ne ither Buzhardt nor anyone olse was assured t hat
the conversations were unequivocally unavailable. At that time
Buzhardt had nothing about looking further for the tapes .
(440-442) .
1
,
- 2 -
The next discussion Bull had with Buzhardt about the
conversations occurred last Tuesday morning (Ocotber 30).
John Bennett ' s office on the first floor of the White House -,:!! st
Wing . Bull had three tapes: Exhibits 5 and 6, and a tape
phone conversations covering approximately the period aroune June
1972. Bull ran through the tapes, occasionally listening fc= II.
word to establish the chronology of the conversations, and · .. he
callie to a portion where a conversation should be, marked it a:.';'
let listen. Both Bull and Buzhardt at that time hea=d
the April 15 tape Where the conversation trailed off, and
tried to find both the 6-rninute Mitchell phone call and the
bracketing calls, in order to prove that the call to Mitchel:
been from a phone not connected to a recorder. aul:
used the President ' s logs in trying to find the bracketing
Both Bull and Buzhardt had used earphones, and although Bull
sure there was a he does not recall
precisely. (442-455)
Bull has seen no logs relating to tapes, and has had no
with anyone about what the pre-July access might
refl ect . (445-456)
Bull as part of his official duties he was in Key B!.;i.::"yne
over this weekend (November 3-5) with the President . Regarc.-.=.; any
discussion about the tapes since testifying Friday. Bull
to someone in his family his dismay over the news accounts
reflecting his court statements as contrary to what he he
had said . (At the Bench , Parker says he had a brief phone
conversation l.;1th Bull about the family locator device
and that Bull may not feel such is considered within
question.) Bull also sa\\· Garment and Buzhardt on Saturday!!.;:.::'
asked if he could review his Friday transcript, but they
he could not do so. Bull also called Parker to ask whether
could obtain a transcript and/or (after responding to a
by Ben-Vcniste) had a discussion about the locator
Bull went to Camp David with tapes on September 28-29
receiving instructions fror.! Haig on the 28th. (Exhibit 28 =,-",.=r.ed :
the logs of retlovo.l and return of tapes frem July 18 to at
the start of the hearings (450).J Either Haig or Bennett tt_=-
Bull which specific tapes he to take to Camp David, ane.
approximately a dozen tapes were made avai l able to Bull by
who also gave hit.l a list of tapes . This list was a copy ":.one
Cox and Senate subpoenas, and there was a tape correspondir.g
each of the subpoena entries . Bull was not present when
inventory was made with respect to the tape removal and does :-;:.t
know if such were made . Bull returned to Bennett
4 or 5 of the dozen tapes on perhaps the Honday after the ' ...
at Camp David . The remainder were retained by Rosemary I-:ooc..; . and
the last time Bull saw them was about two weeks afterwards
\"Ioods ' \'/hite !louse office. Bull does not know whon Or if t..':. .. ..::.t:
tapes were returned to Bennett . (450-456)
While at Camp David , Bull saw Woods typing aCter
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portions of the tapes , but he is unwilling to assume she was making
a transcript. During the next two weeks. Bull saw from time
to time typing after listening to tapes but never saw the product
of her typing. (456-457) {The Court indicates that Woods will
be called as a witness . ( 457») Bull arrived with Woods at Camp
David at about 9:30 a . m. , and Bull had the tapes and tape recorders
with him. The President a rrived at around 11 : 00 a . m., and no one
e l se was there except CD personnel . ( 457 , 4611 . (Bull also indicates
that others were at CD but not in the area around Woods ' cabin
where Nixon and Woods were working . (460») Haig had indicated
that the President wished to begin to review some requested tapes
and that Bull was to assist . Woods told Bull she would be working
with the President in a review, but Bull does not recall whether
she said she was going to transcribe the tapes or not. or whether
she asked him about the tapes ' quality. At some point. either
the day she started or the day before. Bull discussed the quality
of some of the tapes with Woods . (458-459) Bull was with woods ,
while the tapes were being played, from 9:30 a . m. until 5:30 o r
6:00 p . m., and he spent 2 days at Camp David. the Prc*ident
was there, Bull stayed in the other r oom continuing to find
conversations on tapes , and during the brief period when Bull
came into the room while Nixon was there. woods was not'. typing . (462)
WOods did not ask Bull for assistance other than locating tapes,
and Bull did not see any of Woods ' finished typewritten work.
(462-463)
Bull did not at Camp David listen to any of the taped conversa-
tions, other than the end of the April 15 tape where it ran off .
(462)
President was present while Bull was trying to find the
15 Dean-Nixon conversation and the tape trailed off in
m1d - sentence . Bull then told in substance, that he did
not have the yet but would continue to look for it.
Bull thinks the Pres1dent was present whon he said this to I-Ioods .
and Bull at that time offered a partial explanation of why the
conversation was not on the particular reel of tape. (464-467)
I.t some point afterwards, Bull phoned Dennett to tell him that
Bull did not the 15 conversation and to request Bennett
to attempt to find another box . Bennett phoned Bull and said he
had found.anothe: box which he would personally carry to CaDp Oavid .
Bull th1s other box around 8:00 p.m. , and he believes
this Exh1bit 5 .. Bull put the tape on a play back de vice, and
recogn1zed that it dld not pick up "'here the first tape trailed
ofC. B1;Ill reported thi& to Woods and el&o phoned Haig, was
in 1"1ashl.ngton, informing Haig that he was unable to find recordings
of the IIpril 15 Dcen conversation end the Nitchell phone COtwersation .
Bull does not "'hat Haig said to him in response. or whether
Haig at that pOlnt asked for an explanetion . Although the Pr e sident
was at ati l; at Camp David, Dull does not believe he
pe:sonally lnformed of the missing and assumed
Ha1g did so. Bull d1d not see Nixon at Camp David after calling
Haig. (467-470)
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Bull does not believe he has ever sccn any document in Exhibit 28
and cannot authenticate whether it is accurate in all cascs,
although he says it appears to be accurate and he docs not know it
to be inaccurate . (470-472)
Al though Exhibit 28 lists a tape BOB, 4-12-73 to 4-16- 73
which the date markings on Exhibits 5 , 6, and 7 do not appear to
match, the starting dates on E 5, 6 and 7 may be the dates on
which TSO put a new reel onto the recorder and not the dates the
tape actually started recording . (472- 475)
Bull acknowledges that on Exhibit 28, the tape which was
returned OCtOber 1 is not identified with any more particularity
t han 15 April . (476)
Bul l' s impression is that Woods was the only secretary or
person who had anything to do with or
the tapes, and he has heard nothing to the contrary. (476- 477)
Bull has never heard of James D. Barzee . (477 )
The tape delivery around July 10 to Haldeman:
After the President had returned from California, Bull spoke
with over the phone. Haldeman either indicated he was
ready to review some taped conversations or was requesting to do
so , and Bull recalls that he was to reconfirm with the President
whether Haldeman could or should proceed . These were about half
a dozen tapes which, by Bull's reconstruction, Haldeman must have
specified to Bull but which Bull cannot now recall . Bull does not
recall what the President said but he would have given his approval
or Bull would not have proceeded . Bull does not recall if Nixon
indicated any tapes other than Chose specified which Haldeman
should listen to. (477-480)
Dull does recall that the President gave Bull an admonition
to be passed on to Haldeman, that Haldeman should testify before
the Senate Select COmDittee based upon his own recollections and
personal notes and not upon his listening to the tapes, (481-482)
Bull recalls passing along the President's admonition to
Haldeman but does not specifically recall anything else which tran-
spired, Dull recalls that there were two deliveries and was prob-
ably told by Haldeman that he only needed certain tapes on one day.
Bull does not recall tI'hether the delivery to Higby's hOr.'le was be-
fore or after the delivery to the EOB guest office . Bull was pre-
sumably told to split up the delivery sometime after he had requested
the tapes from Sims or Zumwalt although he recalls no specific in-
structions . He recalls leaving the rest of the tApes in the desk
• - 5 -
of his office . (481- 485) Bull docs not know whether
Haldeman r emoved the tapes from the EOB office on tho day they
were de l ivered there by Bull, and Bull does not recall whether
Haldeman told him where he listened to them. Bull
r ecal ls that all the tapes were delivered to him from Rigby ' s
EOB office . (486) Bull does not recall a specific conversation
about br inging the tapes to Higby's house although he must have
r ecei ved some such instructions. At Higby ' s house Bull delivered
the tapes to Haldeman in a briefcase along with a tape recorder .
Higby and his wife were there but Bull docs not know if they knew
what the br iefcase contained. ( 486- 487)
)
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TAPES TO HALDEHAN
Bull does not recall if lIaldemlin retained the tape
recorder after Bull had first given it to Haldeman. Bull
probably only delivered a tape recorder once to Haldeman. (501)
BULL KNOI"ILEDGE OF HIGBY
Bull knows Higby . Bull knows that Higby 11 Deputy Assistant
to President but working in OMB. Bull does not believe Higby
was an aid to Hag., (502)
HALDEMAN TAPES TO BULL
Bull was told to pick up package of tapes in Higby ' s office.
in EOB the second or third day . Haldeman or Higby telephoned
lind said tapes were ready. (502)
NO DISCUSSIO:.J NITH NIXON ABOUT R£!-!OVAL OF TAPES
Bull doesn't recall any conversation with Nixon over
whether the tapes might be removed from White !louse when N.ixon
authorized Haldeman to listen to tapes. Bull assumed it Was
all right to remove tapes. (502-503)
BULL LOCKS 2 TAPES IN DESK
Bull believes Haldeman aSked for only half the tapes. Bull
l ocked the two tapes which were not delivered to Haldeoan in
Bull's desk overnight . (50H
Bull asked for a number of tapes and Bull only delivered a
portion of the six or so tapes that Bull received frot'! Zir.u:lcrrlln.
Bull locked some of these tapes in a drawer of Bul1 ' s desk and
later delivered then to Halde::l.an . (503)
EXHIBIT 7
Re exhibit 7 which indicates that three tapes were removed
on July 10 and given to Bull; that on July 11 six tapes were
removed and given to Bull - Bull does not recollect that there
were two deliveries, not one, by Secret Service to Bull, one of
t hree and one of six tapes . Bull cannot explain this
Bull would only give Haldenan the tapes Nixon had authorized .
(Sirica: Bull can only give his best and not VOuch
for accuracy of logs which were written by someone else .) (504-506)
DATES OF TAPES HALDEMAN RECEIVED
Bull would of had to receive the dates but does not recall
tho dates Haldeman may have indicated regarding the conversations
Haldeman was interested in listeni ng to. Ilaldcman never indicated
to Dull that Haldeman had listened to a tope of a conversation
of Nixon and Dean on April 15. It never cane to Bull ' s attention
,
r
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that. Haldeman listened to the April 15 tape. Haldeman
said that Haldeman only listened to tapes in which Ilaldeman
was a participant. Bull recalls Haldeman making a comment
about a Septet:lber 15 meeting . (506-508)
IIALDEHAN-BULL CONVERSATION
When either Bull made the delivery of the second batch
of tapes or when Bull picked up al l the tapes when Haldeman
r eturned the tapes , Bull hed a conversation with Haldeman
r e the fact that IIaldcman told Bull Haldeman would not listen
to tapes because they dldn ' t involve flaldeman as a participant .
When Bull picked up the tapes in Higby ' s office, or delivered
the second batch, Haldeman was present and this conversation
occurred. Bull did not ask Haldeman why Haldeman would not
l isten to tapes of conversations in which Hal dema n was not
a participant in vie ... · of the fact that in mid-1\pril or late
April 1973, Haldeman had received 22 different tapes from
Bull. Bull had no direct knowledge that Haldeman listcned
to any of the tapes a t that date even though Haldeman had
access to them. (508-509)
ACCESS TO T1I.PES
Bull has no knowledge about what was done ... ·ith tapes
or who heard them during the period in April . Bull has no
knowledge of anyone other than Haldeman , Buttcrfield , Woods,
Bennett, Buzhardt, Zumwalt, Baker, and Nixon having access
to or possession of or listened to any tape or any transcript
of any tape. Presumably Iligby did not know what was in the
sealed package when Bull de livered and picked up the tapes
from Hi gby ' s office. (509-510)
BULL LISTENS TO T1I.PE OF ~ I A R C I l 14
Bull listened to a tape of a March 14 conversation be-
tween Nixon, Moore, and Dean in EOB office . Bull listened
to this tape during the period of June 4th when Nixor. was
attempting to review a number of different conversations.
Apparently this wan a rather insignificant tape and t hat
was why Nixon asked Bull to listen to it. Bull listened
to tape in outer office of EOB. Nixon did not indicate to
Bull what to look for in the way of significance. Bull took
notes on generally what WilD or. t he tape . When Bull related
to Nixon what was on the tape, Nixon asked Bull to move ahead
until Bull reached a certain portion which seemed of interest
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to Nixon. Then Nixon ~ s k e d more questions about this
portion than other portions. Nixon did not listen to the
tape itself. This discussion with Nixon took place in
Nixon's EOB office. (510-512)
REEL SIZE
Bull does not know for certain but believes that all
the reels of tape that Bull came into contact with during this
time were of the same size . Bull does not recall testifying
before Senate Select or anywhere else that the reels were 7-
inch reels. (51l)
REVIEWING TESTIl1QN'i
Bull did not during weekend review anyone else's testi-
mony or have a discussion about anyone olse ' s testimony con-
cerning the tape question. Bull dld not have a conversation
with anybody or review any portion of Haldeman's Senate testi-
mony . Bull is familiar with a couple portions of HAldeman ' s
Senate testimony from Bull ' s own recollection of watching it.
(5l3-514)
TAPES TO KEY BISCAYNE
On October 4th or 5th, Bull carried about 7 or 8 tapes
along with playing device to Key BiSCAyne in an effort to
assist Woods and Nixon wno were continuing the review of the
tapes. Bull got these tapes which were in Woods ' possession .
These were some of the same tapes, not all of them, which were
at Camp David . Bull did not testify a little while ago that
Bull did not see the tapes which were at Camp David again .
Bull said that up until a couple of weeks afterwards it was
about the last point that Bull s aw the tapes. (514-S15)
BULL CONVERSATION WITH WOODS
Bull had a conversation with Woods about where these
tapes had been in the interim from the time Bull saw the
tapes at Camp David until October 4th or 5th. The conver-
sation related to cueing up the tape for Woods . Tho review
process continued beyond the Camp David weekend . It went
into the next week after Camp David, which was about the 1st
of October, and was continuing through the time that Nixon
went to Key Biscayne, which was around October ~ t h or 5th.
Bull knew the precautions for the socurity of the tapes in
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tho interim which consisted of the tapes being locked in
a safe 1n woods ' office . Bull discussed the appropriate
means of safeguar ding the tapes after Bull returned from
Camp David. (S16)
Bull and Woods took the tapes to Key Biscayne November
3-4 . They were in a safe and guarded 24 hours a day by the
Secret Service. The agents did not know what they were
guarding . Bull, Woods and one technician had access to
the safe's combination . (517)
While 1n Key Biscayne Bull cued up the recorder and
lent technical assistance to Woods . NiKon was not prescnt
while ~ ' o o d s was working. (517) Bull will not say whether
transcripts were being typed . He knew it was a review, but
supposed it was not his businesS to know if a verbatim tran-
script was being made . (5la)
Bull did not discuss the r eview with Nixon and does
not know if woods did . (5l9)
Bull thinks 7 or a tapes were in Key Biscayne . There
were 9 or 10 conversations that were the subject of the sub-
poenas . Bull says these were the same t apes he had taken
to Camp David . Bull doesn 't know whether I ~ o o d s had been
working on them since they had been at Camp David . (519)
Sirica asks if these tapes were the subject of the
subpoena and Bull says he believes they arc. (520)
Bull does not know if these tapes have been returned
to Bennett . (520)
Bull is aware of a White House press statement to the
effect that the tapes were under the President 's personal
control . He interprets securing the tapes in Woods' office
would be consistent with the statement. (520)
Bull feels there was adequate security at both San
Clemente and Y.ey Biscayne. The tapes Ilere taken to the
following places : Camp David, Key Biscayne, the EOB, Higby's
house and Bennett's office. They were in Bennett ' s office
for Buzhardt's review on last Tuesday [October 30]. To Bull's
knowledge, they were not taken any other place . (521)
pose .
(521)
No other technicians reviewed the tapes for any pur-
They \Olere not taken to any home besides that of Bigby's .
,
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(sn)
10
Tape IIearings before Sirica November 6, 1973
Afternoon Session
John Nesbitt (recalled)
Ques tions by Parker - redirect
Ne sbitt recalls testifying about a r evision of Nixon ' s daily
for April 15, 1973. A file copy of the back-up data for
the revision is for identification and offered in evidence
as Exhibit 29.
Nesbitt also recalls receiving a call from a secretary in
office which further investigation of April 15
events.. The original of a memorandum to the files concerning this
call dated July 24 is marked Exhibit !O and offered in evidence.
Nesbitt explains the four differences between the original
diary page and the revised .
1. The revision is clearly labelled - "revised 7.26.73"
2. No one at any time ever ordered any or subtractions
from this memo [contrary to what follows!]
3. A meeting between Nixon and Ehrlichrnan in the oval office
in the morning is added .
4. A very lengthy meeting and overlapping meeting is split
into 3 separate meetings.
The President's location or times of phone calls is not changed .
The time shown in meetings in the EOB office is shortened by
about 1/2 hour. No changes made with respect to the
meeting between Nixon and Dean. All changcs on the 2nd page
occurred between 1:11 and 5:25 in the afternoon .
Questions by Volner (recross)
Nesbitt says the President ' s projected activities schedule
is not attached normally, but his office usually receives a copy.
For the Saturday and Sunday in question, a press dinner and church
services arc the only things scheduled. lie kno-ols because he just
called his office to check on it.
Nesbitt's first contact concerning revising the log was July 24
when Buzhardt's office called. lie doesn't recall why the
of the call would contain a reference to Buzhardt's saying the
accuracy of the logs was very important. His recollection of the
call is that Ehrlichman remembered meeting with the
President alone and the log did not reflect this.
Nesbitt does not recall any other similar calls from Buzhat' dt ' s
office but he did get such calls (rom others occasionally . He
evaded the question as to whether it was within Buzhardt's normal
(sp)
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duties to check the logs and said merely that any prudent person
would double check rather than just accept the logs at face value.
The revision of the logs preceded Nixon ' s request that certain
visits not be recorded in his daily diary . About a week and a half
or two weeks later, Nixon asked Sanchez, his valet, what he
(Sanchez) was writing down . Nesbitt doesn't adequately explain
what the result of this event was and cannot remember the time frame.
Nesbitt was not originally provided with any back-up documents
to indicate where the meeting with Ehrlichman had been. Nesbitt's
research assistant, Susan Howell, checked people in the west wing
of the White House who may have been around on Palm Sunday .
She was directed to Tom Hart who remembered the Sunday and
dictated a memo on July 24 . Pacts from this memo were used to
make the revisions of July 26.
David Hoops, a staff assistant in the West Wing, received a
copy of the log as initially prepared and one was sent to the
files. Haldeman did not receive a copy.
An attempt is made to keep the logs for Nixon every day , even
when travelling .
NeSbitt's logs don ' t reflect which phone Nixon night be speaking
from generally. Although Nixon may be geographically located
when a call is made, Nesbitt doesn ' t think he would know what
extension Nixon was using .
John Charles Bennett
1:\ Ouest ions by Parker (direct)
General Bennett is a Deputy Assistant to Nixon who has worked
for lIaig for 5 months. lie was given custody of Nixon'il tape
recordings on July 18, 1973. He gave the Secret Service a
receipt for the tapes he received at that time. The receipt is
marked for identification - Exhibit 31.
voir dire by Ben-Veniste
Only the signature on this receipt is Bennett's handwriting.
The receipt was xeroxed in Bennett ' s presence a few days ago
and a copy given to Parker. Bennett always kept the original
with the tapes . He did not provide a copy to Sims .
The receipt is received in evidence.
Questions by Parker
Exhibits 23, 24, 25, and 26 are xerox copies of 31 and
therefore refresh Bennett ' s recollection as to giving Sims a copy .
l "'0)
(5<»

55<)
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Bennett made notes of what happened to the tapes while he was
in charge of them. The notes were made privately and were for the
purpose of giving accurate sworn testimony on what happened to the
tapes. notes are marked Exhibits 32 and 32a- 9. An inventory
was also on September 28, which is marked Exhibit 33. Al l
the exhibits are in Bennett's handwriting and have been 1n
sennett's possession or custody since he produced them.
Voir dire by Ben-vcniste
On November J. Bennett supervised the xeroxlng of 2 copies of
his notes and the inventory and gave these copies to Parker. The
inventory was kept with the tapes and the notes were sealed in an
envelope and put in Bennett 's safe. He resealed the notes in a fresh
envelope each time a note was added to sure his secretary
did not tamper with them. The notes were all made within an hour
or two after the transaction was corr.pleted. The inventory was
made and completed. before Bennett left the vault on September 29.
Exhibits 32 and 33 are for refreshing Bennett 's recollection.
and represent all that exists in his possession that would help in
determining the removal and return of tapes since July 18.
Exhibits 32 and 33 are received in Evidence .
Questions by Parker
Exhibit 32 indicates that on July 18 at 10:15, Bennett met
with Haig, Buzhardt , Garment, Price, and Kehrli . Bennett was
instructed to supervise change of security, though not location
and keep records and keep the combination to the safes in his or
Haig'g custody.
At 10 : 25, Bennett secured the premises with Kchrli and Sims .
At 4:30, Bennett went to the vault and was told the inventcry
process would be completed in about two hours . The boxes were
being wrapped and marked with the location and dates .
At 4:40 Bennett called Bu%hardt to say take over and security
were complete. At 9:00 sign-over was completed and the combinaions
reset . At 10 : 30 Bennett called Haig to say he had complete
charge of security and at 8 : 10 the next morning turned over the
keys to the door and the combinations to Haig . Bennett then
called Sims to change the access list. Nixon's name was the
only one on the list.
Exhibit 32a represents the events of July 29. At 1:20 p . ln .
Bennett met with Haig and Ziegler . Haig gave Bennett back the
keys and combinations and said a list of reques ted tapes be
furnished. Steve Bull was to arrange for the set-up. Bennett
wa s to stand by for the list, but no tapes changed hands.

Exhibit 32 (b) shows events of September 28. At 2: 15 p.m. Haig
instructed Bennett to pick up a list from Buzhardt (the subpoenaed
tapes) and bring these tapes to flaig's office for the purpose of
(!:"{,o)
( .1.1)
Bull and Rosemary woods taking them to Campt David for transcription.
At 2:20 Bennett called Buzhardt and brought
over the list. At 2:30 Bennett went to the and by 3:45
brought all the proper tapes to his office in a briefcase. He and
Bull doubled-checked the list . One tape was identified by Bull as
one he would not need so it was sealed in II separate envelope and
kept in safe. The other twelve tapes were put in a
briefcase and placed in Bennett's safe . Bull was given the
combination so he could leave early the next morning.
On the next day. Saturday. September 29 at 6 :15 Bull called
from Camp David and said there was an additional tape for April 15 .
Bennett went to the House and went through the tapes again
and found one marked April 15 . Bennett can ' t remember if it was
marked April 15 or just included that date. Bennett drove to
Camp David with this tape and gave it to Bull at 8:00 .
Exhibit 32(c) is the paper used to keep track of tapes taken
out the 28th. Originally, 13 were taken out . One was put in
Bennett ' s safe and the other twelve went with Bull to Camp David.
On morning , OCtober 1, Bull returned 5 tapes and Bennett
put them in his safe, Lhus making 6 tapes in his safo.
On some day [no date because typing is garbled] at 9 : 15 ,
Bennett met Buzhardt in Haig 's office and as a result Buzhardt,
Sims . Zumwalt, and Bennett went to the vault. Bennett carried
the 6 tapes from his safe with them. Three tapes of EOB office
conversations around April 15 were taken back to Bennett ' s office
and played by Bull and Buzhardt until 11:30 . They passed the
earphones back and forth and commented on the contents . It wa s
clear to Bennett that Buzhardt personally wanted to confirm tha t
one conversation was missing .
Of the 3 tapes taken back to his office , one was a telephone
tape for 5- 25-72 and t ..... o of 4-11-73 through 4-16-73 .
6-20-72 through 6-29-72, 2-28-73 through 3- 22-73 . and 3-28-72
remained in the vault .
Exhibit 32(e) reflects a transaction for November 1. At 7 : 45 a.l!' ..
Buzhardt called and then ..... ent to the valiit with Bonnett. Sims,
Zumwalt and another secret service man . Zumwalt copied in pencil
what was on 2 of the boxes onto other boxes and replaced the
originals .

(510)
(1.11)
J
On November J. at Buzhardt's request, Bennett went to Buzhardt ' s
office . Buzhardt said Parker needed to see Bennett's notes and
inventories so Bennett went to the vault a nd took them out. They
were then xeroxed in Parker ' s office.
then asked Bennett to go to the vault and check whether
any boxes of EOB conversations were written on tho outside
with ran out" or "full He found 16 boxes with
-full reel" or some particular notation like that during 1972-1973 .
Bennett turned over notes to this effect to Parker.
Exhibit 32-9 reflects events of November 5. At 1:40 Bennett
received a call from Key Biscayne from Haig_ Rosemary Woods was
on the line with Bennett. Haiq ' s instructions were to get the
tape on Monday, April 16 and Woods was to transcribe tho conversation
between Nixon and Dean . \o,'ood's logs didn ' t show location but just
events, so Bennett got every possible tape which might include a
conversation between Nixon and Dean which amounted to 6 tapes -
5 oval office and 1 EOB . Bennett delivered them to woods at 2:45 .
Woods now has 8 of the original 13 tapes taken out on September
28 , plus 6 tapes from November 5, 14 in all .
Exhibits 5 and 6 are the original tape boxes removed by Bennett
on November 1. They are the same boxes referred to in Exhibit 32-0.
Exhibit 34 wa s prepared by Bennett to show differences in
identi fying the boxes. This was requested by Parker between
9:00 - 10:00 this morning. It is offered in evidence.
his
Short Recess
Questions by Ben-veniste (cross)
Bennett made notes with respect to various tape boxes of
conversations which occurred in the at the suggestion of Doug
Parker or perhaps just inferred that the EOB should be the only
one checked . Bennett says it's possible that Tapes of oval office
oonversations also indicate -tape ran out- or
Notes of search for box markings of -tape ran out" etc . is
marked and offered as Exhibit 35 . Bennett says there is one Mfull
reel - ran out
M
and 12 -full-removed."
Bennett's original instructions upon taking custody was to
take complete control , not change the location and make a record
of what was turned over . There no instructions as to who
would have access to the tapes except Nixon. No instructions were
given about keeping a record of any tapes which might leave the
atorugc area after Bennett took over.
Bennett feels it was implicit. though that he was accountable
if the tapes were
I
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At 10:35 on July 18 (Exhibit 32) , Bennett broke the news to Sims.
Bennett explains that Sims was instructed to remove all recording
devices by Buzhardt in Bennett's presence.
The first half of
it to his secretary.
himself.
Exhibit 32 is typed because Bennett dictated
Later on, he just made the notcs in ink to
Bennett did not personally supervise the July 18 inventory. but
visited from time to time. He signed the receipt on the first page,
but not the last.
Bennett does not know if James Barzee actually counted tapes
during the inventory but thinkS he was for resetting the
combinations to the safes.
Bennett can not be certain that the inventory was accurate at
that time, but trusted the Secret Service. Bennett seeing
the steno pad used for a log by the secret Service as well as .
brown bags, etc .
Bennett doesn't specifically remember the loose notes and
papers being appended to the steno pad but remembers that they were
there .
Bennett says he did not review the steno pad, but after seeing
the back page with his signature recalls that the entry was Barzee's
and indicated that the combinations had been reset . '
Bennett cannot identify the room with the tapes by number .
Ben-Veniste explains that this number is relevant because an
alarm system recorded in a computer print- out is geared to room
numbers. Parker inserts that it is code numbers not room numbers .
The code for this room is 147.
l\I'ithout referring to his notes, Bennett can recall that
he removed tapes from this room on November 28 and 29 [he means
September] and on November 5 .
On July 29, after being told that instructions would be received
about removing tapes, nothing happened . Bennett had the impre3sion
that Nixon .... ·as going to review them. Bennett did not receive an
explanation about the change in plans.
On September 28 , Haig told Bennett that Buzhardt would bring
a list to Bennett of tapes needed. The list ..... as the subpoena . lIai9
told Bennett that and Bull \Iere going to Camp David to
transcribe the tapes. Bennett double-checked the tapes with the
subpoena with Bull, then locked them in a briefcase in Bennett's
safe .
'--
j
At this time, J inventories were actually made. The subpoena
was checked off, the subject paragraph was put in parenthesis
on each box, and the inventory list (Exhibit 33) was made .
Exhibit 33 was the back page of the s t e n ~ book . Exhibit 7. It
was torn out only after taking out the steno book to show the
secret Service log. The torn page was left in the vault u n t ~ l 2
days 4g0. NO one instructed Bennett to tear out the page but
Buzhardt was prescnt.
The steno book was used only because no other paper was
available. The inventory did not relate to the log entries so
Bennett did not think a marker noting the torn page was nece s sary.
No other pages were torn from the book.
I
TAPE HEARINGS BEFORE SIRICA SUNMARY
Tuesday, November 6 , 1973 - Morning Session
13·' II tf. r':,
fI(Sb'rt ;1'
(
Ben-Veniste clarified the dates of the subpoena duces tecum,
indicating that it was not served on July 26 as had been previously
stated, but rather was served on July 23. The show cause order
was issued on July 26, and according to Nesbitt ' s testimony, the
memo to him asking for some revisions in the President ' s log was
on July 25 . Parker agreed to Ben- Veniste ' s correcti ons. (433)
OF STEPHEN BULL BY BEN-VENISTE (resumed)
Bull is reasonably certain that he did not give the tapes to
anyone other than Haldeman on April 25, and there is no question
in his mind about it. Aside from his personal knowledge, Bull
does not believe he heard that anyone other than Haldeman heard ,
saw or handled the tapes on that occasion. (434)
The logs indicate that on April 25 , 22 tapes were delivered to
Bull at 1 : 45 p.m. and returned on April 25 at 5 : 28 p.m., and that
the same 22 tapes were delivered to Bull on Apri l 26 at 11:00 a.m.
and returned by him on May 2. While Bull accepts what the logs
indicate, he stands by his previous recollection of one delivery
which was returned by Haldeman the next day . (435 - 436)
Bull began with Buzhardt on the unrecorded conversation
last Tuesday (October 30) . Bull recalls on Friday
(November 2) that he discussed the unrecorded conversation with
Buzhardt approximately two weeks previous to November 2 but thought
he was now being asked about actually working with Buzhardt in
an effort to find the missing conversation . (436-437)
Bull's talking to Buzhardt about the missing conversations .. ::h
approximately two weeks before November 2 about because of a
prior conversation with Haig which occurred either on the same
day as the talk with Buzhardt or a day or so before and in
either Haig ' s or Bull ' s office . Bull initiated the conversation
with 1Iaig because of Bull ' s continuing concern over the matter
of two missing tapes and not in preparation for any tapes disclosure
or Court proceeding . Bull told Haig something to the effect that
he had familiarity with the mechanical procedures which were
followed when the President reviewed tapes on September 29 and
might thus be of assistance to Buzhardt. Haig indicated that
Bull sho uld contact Buzhardt. (438-440)
Bull contacted Buzhardt but what ensued was more a monologue
than a conversation. Bull had asked Buzhardt whether he was
familiar with the reasons which Bull could offer as to why the
two conversations might not have been recorded, and Buzhardt
had indicated that he was. Bull's interpretation was that Buzhardt
knew that Bull had been unable to find the two conversations,
but at that time neither Buzhardt nor anyone else was assured that
the conversations were unequivocally unavailable. At that time
Buzhardt had said nothing about looking further for the tapes .
(440-442)
- 2 -
The next discussion Bull had with Buzhardt about the missing
conversations occurred last Tuesday morning (Ocotber 30), in
John Bennett ' s office on the first floor of the tfuite House West
Wing. Bull had three tapes: Exhibits 5 and 6, and a tape of
phone conversations covering approximately the period around June
1972 . Bull ran through the tapes, occasionally listening for a
word to establish the chronology of the conversations, and when he
came to a portion where a conversation should marked it and
let Buzhardt listen. Both Bull and Buzhardt at that time heard
the April 15 tape where the conversation trailed off, and also
tried to find both the 6-minute Mitchell phone call and the
bracketing calls, in order to prove that the call to Mitchell
had been made from a phone not connected to a recorder. Bull
used the President's logs in trying to find the bracketing calls.
Both Bull and Buzhardt had used earphones. and although Bull is
sure there was a he does not recall it
precisely. (442- 455) . ., , .. .. H' I ' r
Ow:,J<. < ........ u!;.!': 'JJJ'JJ.
Bull has seen no logs relating to tapes, and has had no
conversations with anyone about what the pre-July access logs might
reflect. (445-456)
Bull says as part of his official duties he was in Key Biscayne
over this w'eekend (November 3-5) \\'ith the President. Regarding any
discussion about the tapes since testifying Friday, Bull indicated
to someone in his family his dismay over the news accounts
reflecting his court statements as contrary to what he thought he
had said. (At the Bench , Parker says he had a brief phone
conversation with Bull about the family locator device this weekend ,
and that Bull may not feel such is considered within Ben-Veniste ' s
question.) Bull also saw Garment and Buzhardt on Saturday and
asked if he could review his Friday transcript , but they said
he could not do so, Bull also called Parker to ask whether he
could obtain a transcript and/or (after responding to a question
by Ben-Veniste) had a discussion about the locator system. (446-449)
"Bull went to Camp David with tapes on September 28-29 after
receiving instructions f:rom Hai9 on the 28th. (Exhibit 28 marked:
the logs of removal and return of tapes from July 18 to at least
the start of the hearings. (450).) Either Haig or Bennett told
Bull which specific tapes he was to take to Camp David, and
approximately a dozen tapes were made available to Bull by Bennett
who also gave him a list of tapes. This list was a copy of the
Cox and Senate subpoenas, and there \Vas a tape corresponding to
each of the subpoena entries . Bull was not present when any
i nventory was made with respect to the tape removal and does not
know if such were made. Bull returned to Bennett approximately
4 or 5 of the dozen tapes on perhaps the Monday after the weekend
at Camp David. The remainder were retained by Rosemary Woods, and
the l ast time Bull sa\V them was about two weeks afterwards in
House office. Bull does not know when or if these
tapes were returned to Bennett. (450-456)
Whi l e at Camp David , Bull saw Woods typing after listening to
- 3 -
portions of the tapes, but he is unwilling to assume she was making
a transcript. During the next two weeks. Bull saw from time
to time typing after listening to tapes but never saw the product
of her typing. (456-457) (The Court indicates that Woods will
be cal l ed as a witness . (457» Bull arrived with Woods at Camp
David at about 9 : 30 a . m., and Bull had the tapes and tape recorders
with him . The President arrived at around 11:00 a.m., and no one
e1 e was there except CD personnel . (457 , 461) . (Bull also indicates
th:t others were at CD but not in the area around Woods ' cabin
where Nixon and Woods were ",arking. (460» Haig had indicated
that the President wished to begin to review some requested
and that Bull was to assist . Woods told Bull she would be
with the President in a reviet.,., but Bull does not recall whether
she said she was going to transcribe the tapes or not, or whether
she asked him about the tapes' quality. At some point, either
the day she started or the day before, Bull discussed quality
of some of the tapes with Woods. (458- 459) Bull was Woods,
whi le the tapes were being played, from 9:30 a . m. 5 : 30 or
6:00 p . m. , and he spent 2 days at Camp David . .. the
was there, Bull stayed in the other room to
conversations on tapes, and during the brief period when
came into the room while Nixon was there, \'ioods was (462)
Woods did not ask Bull for assistance other than locating tapes,
and Bull did not see any of Woods ' finished typewritten work.
( 462-463)
Bul l did not at Camp David listen to any of the taped conversa-
tions, other than the end of the April 15 tape where it ran off .
(462)
The President was present while Bull was trying to find the
April 15 Dean- Nixon conversation and the tape trailed off in
mi d-sentence . Bull then told Noads, in substance, that he did
not have the conversation yet but would continue to look for it.
Bull thinks the President was present when he said this to I'loods,
and Bull at that time offered a partial explanation of why the
conversation was not on the particular reel of tape. (464-467)
At some point afterwards, Bull phoned Bennett to tell him that
Bull did not have the April 15 conversation and to request Bennett
t o attempt to find another box. Bennett phoned Bull and said he
had found another box which he would personally carry to Camp David .
Bul l received this other box around 8 : 00 p . m., and he believes
t his was Exhibit 5 . Bull put the tape on a play back device, and
recognized that it did not pick up where the first tape trailed
off. Bull reported this to Woods and also phoned Haig, who was
i n Washington, informing Haig that he was unable to find recordings
of the April 15 Dean conversation and the Mitchell phone conversation .
Bull does not recall what Haig said to him in response, or whether
Haig at that point asked for an explanation . Although the President
was at this time still at Camp David, Bull does not believe he
personally informed him of the missing conversation and assumed
Haig did so . Bull did not see Nixon at Camp David after calling
lIaig . (467-470)
- 4 -
Bull does not believe he has ever seen any document in Exhibit 28
and cannot authenticate whether it is accurate in all cases ,
although he says it appears to be accurate and he does not know it
to be inaccurate . (470 - 472)
Although Exhibit 28 lists a tape EOB , 4- 12-73 to 4-16-73
which the date markings on Exhibits 5 , 6; and 7 do not appear to
match , the starting dates on E 5, 6 and 7 may be the dates on
which TSD put a new reel onto the recorder and not the dates the
tape actually started recording. (472 - 475)
Bull acknowledges that on Exhibit 28 , the tape which was
returned October 1 is not identified with any more particularity
than 15 ApriL (476)
Bull ' 5 impression is that Noeds was the only secretary or
person who had anything to do with (summarizing or transcribing)
the tapes, and he has heard nothing to the contrary. (476-477 )
Bull has never heard of James D. Barzee . (477)
The tape delivery around July 10 to Haldeman :
After the President had returned from California, Bull spoke
with Haldeman over the phone . Haldeman either indicated he was
ready to review some taped conversations or was requesting to do
so , and Bull recalls that he was to reconfirm with the President
whether Haldeman could or should proceed . These were about half
a dozen tapes which, by Bull' s reconstruction , Haldeman must have
specified to Bull but which Bull cannot now recall. Bull does not
recall what the President said but he would have given his approval
or Bull would not have proceeded . Bull does not recall if Nixon
indicated any tapes other than ~ h o s e specified which Haldeman
should listen to. (477-480)
.Bull does recall that the President gave Bull an admonition
to be passed on to Haldeman , that Haldeman should testify before
the Senate Select Committee based upon his own recollections and
personal notes and not upon his listening to the tapes . (481-482)
Bull recalls passing along the President ' s admonition to
Haldeman but does not specifically recall anything else which tran-
spired. Bull recalls that there were two deliveries and was prob-
ably told by Haldeman that he only needed certain tapes on one day.
Bull does not recall whether the delivery to Higby's home was be-
fore or after the delivery to the EOB guest office. Bull was pre-
sumably told to split up the delivery sometime after he had requested
the tapes from Sims or Zumwalt although he recalls no specific in-
structions . He recalls leaving the rest of the tapes in the desk
- 5 -
drawer of his office . (481- 485) Bull does not know whether
Haldeman removed the tapes from the EOB office on the day they
we r e delivered there by Bull, and Bull does not recal l whether
Haldeman told him where he listened to them. Bull
recalls that all the tapes were delivered to him from Higby's
EOB office. (486) Bull does not recall a specific conversation
about bringing the tapes to Higby's house although he must have
r eceived some such instructions . At Higby ' s house Bull delivered
the tapes to Haldeman in a briefcase along with a tape recorder.
Higby and his wife were there but Bull does not know if they knew
what the briefcase contained. (486-487)
-6-
TAPES TO HALDEHAL'1
Bull does not recall if Haldeman retained the tape
recorder after Bull had first given it to Haldeman . Bull
probably only delivered a tape recorder once to Haldeman . (501)
BULL KNOY1LEDGE OF HIGBY
Bull knows Higby . Bull knows that Higby is Deputy Assistant
to President but iiOrking in OMB. Bull does not believe Higby
was an aid to (502)
UALDEl1AN RETUR.1IjS TAPES TO BULL
Bul l was told to pick
in EOB the second or third
and said tapes were ready.
up package of tapes in Higby's office.
day. Haldeman or Higby telephoned
(502)
NO DISCUSSION NITA NIXON ABOUT RENOVAL OF TAPES
Bull doesn ' t recall any conversation with Nixon over
whether the tapes might be removed from White House when Nixon
authorized Haldeman to listen to tapes . Bull assumed it was
all right to remove tapes. (502-503)
BULL LOCKS 2 TAPES IN DESK
Bull believes Haldeman asked for only half the tapes. Bull
locked the b .. o · tapes which were not delivered to Haldeman in
Bull ' s desk overnight. (503)
Bull asked for a number of tapes and Bull only delivered a
portion of the six or so tapes that Bull received from 7,immerman.
Bull locked some of these tapes in a drawer of Bull ' s desk and
later delivered them to Haldeman. (503)
EXHIBIT 7
Re exhibit 7 which indicates that three tapes were removec
on July 10 and given to Bull; that on July 11 six tapes were
removed and given to Bull - Bull does not recollect that there
were two deliveries, not one, by Secret Service to Bull, one of
three and one of six tapes . Bull cannot explain this discrepancy .
Bull would only give Haldeman the tapes Nixon had authorized .
(Sirica: Bull can only give his best recollection and not vouch
for accuracy of logs which were written by someone else.) (504-506)
DATES OF TAPES HALDEMAN RECEIVED
Bul l would of had to receive the dates but does not recall
the dates Haldeman may have indicated regarding the conversations
Haldeman was interested in listening to . Haldeman never indicated
to Bull that Haldeman had listened to a tape of a conversation
of Nixon and Dean on April 15. It never came to Bull's
- 7-
that Haldeman listened to the April 15 tape. Haldeman
said that Haldeman only listened to tapes in which Haldeman
was a participant. Bull recall s Haldeman making a comment
about a September 15 meeting . (506-508)
HALDEHAN-BULL CONVERSATION
When either Bull made the delivery of the second batch
of tapes or when Bull picked up all the tapes when Haldeman
returned the tapes, Bull had a conversation with Haldeman
r e the fact that Haldeman told Bull Haldeman would not listen
to tapes because they didn 't involve Haldeman as a participant .
When Bull picked up the tapes in Higby's office , or del ivered
the second batch, Haldeman was present and this conversation
occurred . Bull did not ask Hal deman why Haldeman would not
l isten to tapes of conversations in which Haldeman was not
a participant in view of the fact that in mid-April or late
Apr il 1973, Haldeman had received 22 different tapes from
Bul l. Bull had no direct knowledge that Haldeman li stened
to any of the tapes at that date even though Haldeman had
access to them. (SOS-S09)
ACCESS TO TAPES
Bul l has no knowledge about what was done with tapes
or who heard them during the period in April. Bull has no
knowledge of anyone other than Haldeman , Butterfield, \,loods,
Bennett, Buzhardt, Zumwalt, Baker, and Nixon having access
to or possession of or listened to any tape or any transcript
of any tape . Presumably Higby did not know what was in the
seal ed package when Bull delivered and picked up the tapes
from Higby ' s office . (509-510)
BULL LISTENS TO TAPE OF MARCH 14
Bul l l istened to a tape of a March 14 conversation be-
tween Nixon, l>100re, and Dean in EOB office . Bull listened
to this tape during ' the period of June 4th when Nixon was
at tempting to r eview a number of different conversations .
Apparently thi s \ ... as a rather insignificant tape and that
was why Nixon asked Bull to listen to it. Bull l istened
to tape in outer office of EOB. Nixon did not indicate to
Bull what to look for in the way of significance. Bull took
notes on generally what was on the tape . Nhen Bull related
to Nixon what was on the tape, Nixon asked Bull to move ahead
until Bull reached a certain portion which seemed of interest
-8-
to Nixon. Then Nixon asked more questions about
portion than other portions . Nixon did not to the
tape itself. This discussion with Nixon took in
Nixon ' s EOB office . (510- 512)
REEL SIZE
Bull does not know for certain but believes that all
the reels of tape that Bull carne into contact wi during this
time were of the same size. Bull does not recal:
before Senate Select or anywhere else that the were 7-
inch reels. (513)
REVIEWING TESTIMONY
Bull did not du.ring weekend r eview anyone e:'se ' s testi-
mony or have a discussion about anyone else's con-
cerning the tape question . Bull did not have a
with anybody or review any portion of Haldeman's 5:nate testi-
mony. Bull is familiar with a couple portions c= 3 aldeman 's
senate testimony from Bull ' s own recoll ection 0= -.,.-atching it .
(51 3- 514)
TAPES TO KEY BISCAYNE
On October 4th or 5th, Bull carried about - 8 tapes
along with playing device to Key Biscayne in an to
assist Woods and Nixon who were continuing the of the
tapes . Bull got these t apes which were in i\'oods ?ossess ion.
These were some of the same tapes, not al l of e-_==-, which \'1ere
at Camp David . Bull did not testify a little wl:.:. ':,e ago that
Bull did not see the tapes which were at Camp Da-;--:....:: again .
Bull said that up until a couple of weeks aften.'-=--::s it was
about the last point that Bull saw the tapes. (:::"4-515)
BULL CONVERSATION WITH v100DS
Bull had a conversation with woods about these
tapes had been in the interim from the time ' Bull the
tapes at Camp David until October 4th or 5th. conver-
sation related to cueing up the tape for Woods. review
process continued beyond the Camp David weekend . =t went
into the next \,'eek after Camp David, which was a:: -::--l.: 't the 1st
of October , and was continu ing through the time Nixon
went to Key Biscayne, which was around October or 5th.
Bull knew the precautions for the security of the :=apes in
-9-
the interim which consisted of the tapes being locked in
a safe in ~ V ' o o d s ' office. Bull discussed the appropriate
means of safeguarding the tapes after Bull returned from
Camp David. (516)
Bull and Woods took the tapes to Key Biscayne November
3-4 . They were in a safe and guarded 24 hours a day by the
Secret Service. The agents did not know \.,.hat they were
guarding. Bull, Woods and one technician had access to
the safe ' s combination. (517)
While in Key Biscayne Bull cued up the recorder and
lent technical assistance to i'loods. Nixon was not present
while Woods was working. (517) Bull will not say whether
transcripts were being typed. He knew it was a review, but
supposed it was not his business to know if a verbatim tran-
script was being made. (518)
Bull did not discuss the review with Nixon and does
not know if Woods did. (519)
Bull thinks 7 or 8 tapes were in Key Biscayne. There
were 9 or 10 conversations that were the subject of the sub-
poenas. Bull says these were the same tapes he had taken
to Camp David. Bull doesn ' t know whether Woods had been
working on them since they had been at Camp David. (519)
Sirica asks if these tapes were the subject of the
subpoena and Bull says he believes they are . (520)
Bull does not know if these tapes have been returned
to Bennett . (520)
Bull is aware of a White House press statement to the
effect that the tapes were under the President's personal
control. He interprets securing the tapes in Woods' office
would be consistent with the statement. (520)
Bull feels there was adequate security at both San
Clemente and Key Biscayne . The tapes were taken to the
following places: Camp David, Key Biscayne, the EOB, Higby's
house and Bennett ' s office. They were in Bennett's office
for Buzhardt's review on last Tuesday IOctober 30] . To Bull's
knowledge, they were nut taken any other place. (521)
NO other technicians reviewed the tapes for any pur-
pose. They were not taken to any home besides that of Higby's.
(521)
(5U)
/0
Tape Hearings before Sirica NovembQr 6, 1973
Afternoon Session
John Nesbitt (recalled)
Questions by Parker - redirect
Nesbitt recalls testifying about a revision of Nixon's daily
diary for April 15, 1973. A file copy of the back-up data for
the revision is marked for identification and offered in evidence
as Exhibit 29.
Nesbitt also recalls receiving a call from a secretary in
Buzhardt's office which prompted further investigation of April 15
events. The original of a memorandum to the files concerning this
call dated July 24 is marked Exhibit SO and offered in evidence.
J
Nesbitt explains the four differences between the original
diary page and the revised.
1. The revision is clearly labelled - "revised 7.26.73"
2. No one at any time ever ordered any additions or subtractions
from this memo [contrary to what follows!]
in
3.
the
A meeting between
morning is added.
Nixon and Ehrlichman in the oval office
4. A very lengthy meeting and overlapping meeting is split
into 3 separate meetings .
The President ' s location or times of phone calls is not changed.
The time shown in meetings in the EOB office is shortened by
about 1/2 hour. No changes were made with respect to the
meeting between Nixon and Dean. All changes on the 2nd page
occurred between 1:11 and 5 :25 in the afternoon.
Questions by Volner (recross)
Nesbitt says the President's projected activities schedule
is not attached normally, but his office usually receives a copy.
For the Saturday and Sunday in question, a press dinner and church
services are the only things scheduled. He knows because he just
called his office to check on it.
Nesbitt ' s first contact concerning revising the log was July 24
when Buzhardt ' s office called. He doesn't recall why the memorandum
of the call would contain a reference to Buzhardt's saying the
accuracy of the logs was very important. His recoll ection of the
call is that Ehrlichman specifically remembered meeting with the
President alone and the log did not reflect this .
Nesbitt does not recall any other similar calls from Buzhardt ' s
office but he did get such calls from others occasionally. He
evaded the question as to whether it was within Buzhardt's normal
1/
-)1:-
duties to check the l ogs and said merely that any prudent person
would double check rather than just accept the l ogs at face value.
The r evi sion of the logs preceded Nixon ' s request that certain
visits not be recorded in his daily diary. About a week and a half
or two weeks later, Nixon asked Sanchez , hi s valet, what he
(Sanchez) was writing down . Nesbitt doesn ' t adequately explain
what the result of this event was and cannot remember the time frame.
Nesbitt was not originally provided with any back-up documents
to i ndicate where the meeting with Ehrlichman had been . Nesbitt ' s
research assistant, Susan Howell , checked people in the west wing
of the White House who may have been around on Palm Sunday _
She was directed to Tom Hart who remembered the Sunday and
dictated a memo on July 24 . Facts from this memo were used to
make the revisions of July 26 .
David Hoops , a staff assistant in the West Wing, received a
copy of the log as initially prepared and one was sent to the
files . Haldeman did not receive a copy .
An attempt is made to keep the logs for Nixon every day, even
when travelling.
Nesbitt's logs don ' t reflect wh i ch phone Nixon might be speaking
from generally . Although Nixon may be geographically located
when a call is made , Nesbitt doesn ' t think he would know what
extension Nixon was using .
John Charles Bennett
m Questions by Parker (direct)
General Bennett is a Deputy Assistant to Nixon who has worked
for Haig for 5 mont hs . He was given custody of Nixon ' s tape
recordings on July 18, 1973 . He gave the Secret Service a
receipt for the tapes he received at that time. The receipt i s
marked for identification - Exhibit 31.
voir dire by Ben-Veniste
Only the signature on this r eceipt is Bennett's handwriting .
The receipt was xeroxed in Bennett ' s presence a few days ago
and a copy given to Parker. Bennett always kept the original
with t he tapes. He did not provide a copy to Sims .
The receipt i s received in evidence .
Questions by Parker
Exhibi ts 23 , 24, 25 , and 26 are xerox copies of 31 and
therefore refr esh Bennett ' s recollection as to giving sims a copy .
5$0)

Bennett made notes of what happened to t he tapes while he was
in charge of them. The notes were made privately and were for the
purpose of giving accurate sworn testimony on what happened to the
tapes. Thezc notes are marked Exhibits 32 and 32a-g . An inventory
was also made on September 28, which is marked Exhibit 33 . All
the exhibits are in Bennett ' s handwriting and have been in
Bennett's possession or custody since he produced them.
Voir dire by Ben- Veniste
On November 3 , Bennett supervised the xeroxing of 2 copies of
hi s notes and the inventory and gave these copies to Parker. The
inventory was kept with the tapes and the notes were sealed i n an
envelope and put in Bennett ' s safe. He resealed the notes in a fresh
envelope each time a note was added to make sure his secretary
did not tamper with The notes were all made an hour
or two after the transaction was corr.pleted. The inventory was
made and completed_before Bennett left the vault on September 29 .
Exhibits 32 and 33 are for refreshing Bennett ' s recollection.
and represent all that exists in his possession that would help in
determining the removal and return of tapes since July 18 .
Exhibits 32 and 33 are received in Evidence .
Questions by Parker
Exhibit 32 indicates that on July 18 at 10:15, Bennett met
with Haig, Buzhardt , Garment, Price, and Kehrli. Bennett was
inst ructed to supervise change of security, though not location
a nd keep records and keep the combination to the safes in his or
Haig's custody.
At 10:25, Bennett secured the premises with Kehrli and Sims.
At 4:30, Bennett went to the vault and was told the inventory
process would be compl eted in about two hours. The boxes were
being wrapped and marked with the location and dates.
At 4:40 Bennett called Buzhardt to say take over and security
were complete . At 9:00 sign-over was completed and the combinaions
reset . At 10:30 Bennett called Haig to say he had complete
charge of security and at 8 : 10 the next morning turned over the
keys to the door and the combinations to Haig. Bennett then
called Sims to change the access list. Nixon ' s name was the
only one on the list.
Exhibit 32a represents the events of July 29. At 1:20 p . m.
Bennett met with Haig and Ziegler . Haig gave Bennett back the
keys and combinations and said a list of requested tapes v,ould be
furni shed . Steve Bull was to arrange for the set- up . Bennett
was to stand by for the list, but no tapes changed hands.
-:.)

- )I -
Exhibit 32(b) shows events of September 28. At 2:15 p.m. Haig
instructed Bennett to pick up a list from Buzhardt (the subpoenaed
tapes) and bring these tapes to Haig's office for the purpose of
Bull and Rosemary \'1oods taking them to campt David for transcription.
At 2:20 Bennett called Buzhardt and brought
over the At 2:30 Bennett went to the and by 3 :45
brought all the proper tapes to his office in a briefcase . He and
Bull doubled-checked the list . One tape was identified by Bull as
one he would not need so i t ... as sealed in a separa te envelope and
kept in Bennett's safe . The other twelve tapes were put in a
briefcase and placed in Bennett's safe . Bull was given the
combination so he could leave early the next morning.
On the next day, Saturday, September 29 at 6:15 Bull called
from Camp David and said there was an additional tape for April 15 .
Bennett went to the White House and went through the tapes again
and found one marked April 15 . Bennett can ' t remember if it was
marked April 15 or just included that date . Bennett drove to
Camp David with this tape and gave it to Bull at 8:00 .
Exhibit 32(c) is the paper used to keep track of tapes taken
out the 28th. Originally, 13 were taken out. One was put in
Bennett's safe and the other twelve went with Bull to Camp David .
On Monday morning, October 1, Bull returned 5 tapes and Bennett
put them in his safe , thus 6 tapes in his safe.
On some day [no date because typing is garbled] at 9 :15,
Bennett met Buzhardt in Haig's office and as a result Buzhardt,
Sims, Zumwalt, and Bennett went to the vault. Bennett carried
the 6 tapes from his safe with them. Three tapes of EOB office
conversations around April 15 were taken back to Bennett's office
and played by Bull and Buzhardt until 11 : 30. They passed the
earphones back and forth and commented on the contents . It was
clear to Bennett that Buzhardt personally wanted to confirm that
one conversation was missing .
Of the 3 tapes taken back to his office , one was a telephone
tape for 5-25-72 and two of 4-11-73 through 4- 16-73.
6- 20 - 72 through 6-29-72, 2-28-73 through 3-22-73, and 3-28-72
remained in the vault.
Exhibit 32(e) reflects a transaction for November 1 . At 7:45 a . m.
Buzhardt called and then , ... ent to the vault with Bennett, Sims ,
Zumwalt and another secret service man. Zumwalt copied in pencil
what was on 2 of the boxes onto other boxes and replaced the
originals.
(<;10)
l'f
- Jf -
On November 3, at Buzhardt ' s r equest , Bennett went to Buzhardt's
office. Buzhardt said Parker needed to see Bennett ' s notes and
inventories so Bennett went to the vault and took them out. They
were then xeroxed in Parker's office.
Parker then asked Bennett to go to the vault and check whether
any boxes of EOB conversations were written on the outside
with "tape ran out" or "full He found 16 boxes with
" full reel" or some particular notation like that during 1972-1973.
Bennett turned over notes to this effect to Parker.
Exhibit 32 - 9 reflects events of November S. At 1:40 Bennett
received a call from Key Biscayne from Haig . Rosemary Woods ' .... as
on the line with Bennett. Haig's instructions were to get the
tape on Monday, April 16 and \100ds was to transcribe t..l).e conversation
between Nixon Oean. Wood ' s logs didn't show location but just
events, so Bennett got every possible tape which might include a
conversation between Nixon and Dean which amounted to 6 tapes -
5 oval office and 1 EOB . Bennett delivered them to Woods at 2 : 45 .
woods now has 8 of the original 13 tapes taken out on
28 , plus 6 tapes from November 5, 14 in all .
Exhibits 5 and 6 are the original tape boxes r emoved by Bennett
on November 1. They are the same boxes referred to in Exhibit 32 - 0 .
Exhibit 34 was prepared by Bennett to show differences in
identifying the boxes. This was requested by Parker between
9:00 - 10:00 this morning. It is offered in evidence.
Short Recess
Questions by Ben- Veniste (cross)
his
Bennett made notes with respect to various tape boxes of
conversations which occurred in the EOB at the suggestion of Doug
Parker or perhaps just inferred that the EOB should be the only
one checked. Bennett says it ' s possible that Tapes of oval o=fice
oonversations also indicate "tape ran out" or
Notes of search for box markings of "tape ran out" etc . is
marked and offered as Exhibit 35. Bennett says there is one "full
reel - ran out" and 12 "full - removed. "
Bennett ' s original instructions upon taking custody was to
take complete control, not change the location and make a r eco=d
of what was turned over . There were no instructions as to who
would have access to the tapes except Nixon. No instructions were
given about keeping a record of any tapes which might leave the
storage area after Bennett took over.
Bennett feels it was though that he was accountable
if the tapes were removed .
((.17)
At 10:35 on July 18 (Exhibit 32), Bennett broke the news to Sims .
Bennett explains that Sims was instructed to remove all recording
devices by Buzhar dt in Bennett's presence .
The first half of
it to his secretary.
himself •
Exhibit 32 is
Later on, he
typed because
just made the
Bennett dictated
notes in ink to
Bennett did not personally supervise the July 18 inventory , but
visited from time to time. He signed the receipt on the first page,
but not the last.
Bennett does not know if James Barzee actually counted tapes
during the inventory but thinks he was ~ h e r e for resetting the
combinations to the safes .
Bennett can not be certain that the inventory was accurate at
that time, but trusted the Secret Service . Bennett admits seeing
the steno pad used for a log by the Secret Service as well as .
brown bags , etc.
Bennett doesn ' t specifically remember the loose notes and
papers being appended to the steno pad but remembers that they were
there.
Bennett says he did not review the steno pad, but after seeing
the back page with his signature recalls that the entry was Barzee ' s
and indicated that the combinations had been reset. .
Bennett cannot identify the room with the tapes by number.
Den-Veniste explains that this number is relevant because an
alarm system recorded in a computer print-out is geared to room
numbers . Parker inserts that it is code numbers not room numbers .
The code for this room is 147.
Without referring to his notes , Dennett can recall that
he removed tapes from this room on November 28 and 29 [he means
September} and on November S.
On July 29, after being told that instructions would be received
about removing tapes, nothing happened. Bennett had the impression
that Nixon was going to review them. Bennett did not receive an
explanation about the change in plans .
On September 28, Haig told Bennett that Buzhardt would bring
a list to Bennett of tapes needed. The list was the subpoena . Haig
told Bennett that Woods and Bull were going to Camp David to
transcribe the tapes. Bennett double-checked the tapes with the
subpoena with Bull , then locked them in a briefcase in Bennett ' s
safe .
At this time, 3 inventories were actually made. The subpoena
was checked off, the subject paragraph was put in parenthesis
on each box, and the inventory list (Exhibit 33) was made .
Exhibit 33 was the back page of the steno book, Exhibit 7. It
was torn out only after taking out the steno book to show the
Secret Service log . The torn page was left in the vault until 2
days ago. No one instructed Bennett to tear out the page but
Buzhardt was present.
The steno book was used only because no other paper was
available . The inventory did not relate to the log entries so
Bennett did not think a marker noting the torn page was necessary.
No other pages were torn from the book.
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(the audit was on the 1961 Federal Income
Tax Return of Richard M. & Patricia R. Nixon)
/
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Rose Mary Woods
The President ' s Secretary
White House .- ,
Washington, D. C. 20500
Dear Miss Woods :
November 13, 1973
I am writing this letter to you with the hope that you will have the
President see the two attachments. My wife is a cousin of Edward
Haakinson and many members of my family live in Sebring. I
have been there many times over the past fifty years and am s o
proud that such a distinguished lady as you came {rom that town.
I retired from the Treasury Department as of 12/31/65. My pOSi-
tion was "Super Supervisor" in charge of sensitive audits - one
being you know who. I immediately t ook charge and verified the
original audit as " No Change" and the case was sent back to
Washington. Within a month it came back with a letter severely
criticizing the N. C. Report and referring to articles in the news -
papers and magazines. I sent the case back to Washington with
this comment. "We don' t work cases by what the news media
and magazines say. we base our findings on facts. " That settled
the case. Three times it had been sent to L. A. from WaShington.
Sincerely.
;!
William H. Turner
WHT:nd
Enclosures (2)
1
.J (S'7;;' Gold Ave.
Ca. 93534
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Rose Mary Woods
The Presi dent !s Secretary
Wtite House
Washi ngton, D. C. 20500
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WITHDRAWA L NOTICE

tfuefgrd:S of the Watergate Special Prosecution Force
Rl's Withold Folder: 0 Document: 2
ertes: 7
1
Copies: 1 Total Pages: 24
ACCESS RESTRICTED
The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:
t
Older Titlei,Fjle 9/24: Exhibits
T List
pecial Media:
tom:
0:
Subject: 0-3: list of Democratic conlibulors
has been withdrawn for the following reason(s):
NND: 70883
Withdrawn: 09-27-2011 by:
0 0 2

--
:FOIA(b)6
FOIA(b)3
- 26 USC 6103 , Tax Information
TH E WHIT!:: HOUSE
WASHINGTON
August 9, 1972
MEMORANDUM FOR:
H. R. HALDEMAN
THE PRESIDENT
\J
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I
but on a totally confidential bash. 1 mentioned thl< fact that
0' Brien' s name had popped up in the investigation by IRS of
"" Hughes Tool Company. Conn;l.lly feels ver y strongly that any
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information we get in this matter should not be held, but should
- - k 1 \y pop out just as qUl.C ly as pos eib c. I have mentioned it to
Ehrlidunan and ll1rlichman says that unless O'Brien responds
" ..1' to the reques t that he submit to a volu,ntary IRS interrogation
;.i . that he would be suppoened. I think th'at this s hould not be
handled on that basis until at least a telephone call is made by
the head of IRS to 0 ' Brien. Before 0' Brien then s t onewalls it,
;!; a subpoena should follow.
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The most important {actor, however, is urgency. Connally
, strongly urged that in addition to follOwing through on the
I i that was paid to C'Bden and Associates anal I
that was paid to Joe Napolitaqwe should foll ow up on the Napolitan
return!; in 1968 and O'Brien's as well. According to Connally.
while t here wa s approximately $9 =illion dollars unpaid bilb
after Humphrey' s unsuccesdul campai gn, all of the bills which
have been submitted to Napolitan were paid. C'Bden at that
tirlle, of course, milking a great deal out of the that
he wa s an unpaid National Chahman. Connally b e lieves that
{ollow:nr; up ther e Inay bring \15 some p".y dirt. T he p oint here
is that ConnOll y' s very strong con viction is that dropping some_
thing on 0' Brien will have far morc eUed now than at a later
time and will keep all of our Democratic opponents a little loose.
The longer we let it go, the more possibility the cha r ge will be
made that it> was a last minute smear. I consider it oC the highes t
priority to have John Ehrlichman, if he ha s the time;, or you personally,
to ride IRS on this matter until we get a decillion one wa.y or another.
Be sure t o emphasize to John and ... .... v ...... "'. "",d, that we <Ln, nv" ... Ou·
cerned, that we are not trylng to develop a l egal case that hi air tight.
The very fact that 0 ' Brie n and Associates received any lTloney at all
from Hughes , when it is firmly established, it should he put out. What
is most important is that the ms audit of O'Brien, begin Thur s day-
that means tomorrow - at the VCr}' cadiest. This means that today,
:36514
DocId: 31444204
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Wednesday, the call must be made by the head of IRS to O'Bden
so that the stage can be set f ot" a subpoena in the event t hat O' Br ien
docs not show up voluntarily. Don' t let hun delay.
Docld:31444204
WITHDRAWAL NOTICE

N'jefgrd:soof the Watergate Special Prosecution Force
0; Withold Folder; 0 Document: 3
erles: 7
1
ry
Copies: 1 Tolal Pages: 5
ACCESS RESTRICTED
The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file:
t
Older Tilleitl·le W.?4: Exhibits
acumen! Ta e: 'tfi01-1972
ocur:;,elJ.t drye: eport
jss'l Commissioner (Compliance)
0: l,;ommlSSloner
Subject: 0-5: Hughes Project (As it relates to Lawrence F, O'Brien, Sr.)
for the following reason(s):
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THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
August 9. 1972
MEMORANDUM FOR:
1-1. R . HALDEMAN
FROM THE PRESIDENT
This l<. <. mClTIoramh.lrn y'Ju can tlisc\\ ":; with E!,l"lidln '1.11 and
y ou s h ould take responsibility on fOT following up in the event
EhrlichlTIall becomes too bogged down with Dome s tic Council
and other matters to do 50.
Connally feels , and I totally agree, that we now have to pour on
the coal in following up on any investigations of the top Democratic·
officials which lTIight yield SOlTIe pay dirt . He is confident that
there is material in the Kimmelman files, in the event that we
really press. I told hi:m. that I understood (Mitchell had told me)
that there was a file in the Interior Deparbnent and one in the
Justice Department on KinllTIelrnan. I want either you or Ehrlich-
man to take the personal responsibility for getting these files
today _ within the next 24 hours - and then personal responsibility"
for seeing that they are r aked through by top experts to see if any
inform.ation concerning Kirrunelm.an. which might be d erogatory.
could h e put out. Here again, we do not have to have an i ndictment
or an air tight criminal case in order to get the iniormation out.
What is important that any on hiITl which might indicate
some shady dealings , should gotten out ;).t an early point. On
both the 0' Brien and the Kirrunelrnan ITlatters, I want you personally
to follow up and keep me posted on what has clevdopeJ. Of course,
if nothing turns up, drop t!lc whole matter, but let' s b e s ure that
gone tht' extra n1ile and dev(·loped mate,ial, before we drop
the lnattcr .
.9 f \')\"""",,'
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Tfr? S;;Q.ZI
UXITED STATES OF' JUSTI CE
FEDERAL BUnE:,\.t; OF I XYt STICATI O;\"
..
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September 1969
,
Honorable Richard X .. Nixon
The Hhite House
'l-lashington. D. C'.
Dear Mr . President':
, .
• ' • -Previous communications. have set :out;. informatioa l·klich
we obtained from ext remel y; sensitive sources concerning certain
individual s on the 1.fuite House staff and their J.ne
sensitive . sourc es·have furnished the following additional
.
_I ••
Daniel El lsberg, .not furthe r identified, l1as a recent
house' guest of Mot:ton H. Halperin _ Ellsberg. during a contat::t
wi th one Harry. not further identified, but "Iho may be his brother.
discussed sitting up with · Harry whil e Harry went on a " trip: II
From their conversation, it was obvious that they He:ce ,discussing '
the use of drugs. El lsber g recommended that Harry not take the
" trip" at the time his lvife t akes one. Ellsberg subsequently
to another i ndividual that he had·left a satchel filled
with " stuff" at ·h is friend ' s h ouse and during a conta ct lnth Pat
Marks of Sca];'sdale, New York, she told him t hat the. " stuff"
had was all right although it was disorienting.
Daniel Ira Davidson, a former member of the
House staff. recently told an unidentifi ed that Rick
STIli t h of ' 'The Nefl York Times, I I thought that Secretary o f State
Rogers is inept and l etting dOlm t he Department of State by doing
nothing . Davidson a l so stated that he knew that RiChardson , not

Group
Excluded f ' M autowatic
downgradi g and
declass· ication
.
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Honorable Richard
. . - .; ....
further identified,. is considering hiring Cnadlrin, identical
to I'fark Chad.nn, an associate of Averell Harriman. Both he anel
the individual to ':'-hom he "'ilS speaking agreed that this 'tras a sign
that it is not hopeless to be connect.ed with Harriman. Davidson
then stated that Richardson may' b e the only high official tdlling
to take someone IItainted" l1ith Harriman. Davidson said that his
source of , this information 'fas Jonathan, not f urther ide!1tified,
'\-Tho is, g9tng to beco!<le a Iideputy for East Asia.
11
He described
Jonathan as a Republi can "lnO has ' Horked in' for-efgn affairs in the
u. S. · I nformation. in the Department of State.

. Sincer ely
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TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A PORTION OF
A PRESIDENT NIXON,
AND EHRLICffi1AN ON JULY 6, 1971


NIXON, t-IITCHELL, HALDEMAN AND EHRLICHMAN - JULY 6, 1971
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
HALDEl-iAN :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
Uh, I wanted to, uh, check with you before you
had left . Because you won't be back for a week.
And
It'll,
weeks.
back.
it'll be, be, well , its not quite two
But its close to it. The 24th, I'll be
But with regard to, uh, Were we stand. I'll be in
California through the 19th, or the 20th, I guess
is that it? -- Are we still doing that thing
It says here •
. Senator?
The 20th.
Well , we'll come right back from there, I guess ,
right, then we ' d come back and uh, uh, the uh,
uh, have you talked to John about this Ells --. this ,
uh - - not Ellsberg thing .
Cook.
The , the Mathias thing. The rest of the papers.
SEVERAL UNIDENTI FIED SPEAKERS:
MITCHELL :
No, I have not, I don't know I haven!t . I know - -
uh , Mardian -- Mardian (unintelligibl e)
And there's to be a meeting with Mathias the 8th
I don ' t know why he postponed it so long -- with
Mardian and people from DOO , I guess that ' s it.
State ' s not involved -- to get into this. Mathias
is playing a l ittle cat and mouse game -- wouldn ' t
see them before the 8th to get into the background
of how they got them from Ellsberg, what they are
and get them returned.
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
2
\'1ell, the problem that we have on those is
not that, these, these are papers from the NSC,
is that correct? Y'see -- that ' s what I'm
concerned about. These are papers -- that's
why State should be in on it. These are papers
that involves memorandas apparently that Rogers
is supposed to have written to the NSC, or to
me or to somebody.
They are they are the Nixon papers. As far as
I know he has not described them.
How did they get --
How did they get out of the NSC file , that ' s
my point. And , and, and then, are we -- that's
the , that ' s the investigation that's got to be
given the highest priority immediately now.
they don ' t necessarily.
Now here's
• could have come out of an NSC file, the
NSC could have got you've gotta, got a Defense
file, out of a State file - - or out of an NSC
file - --
Aw come on, bullshit
Sure. Rogers sent papers to me . I'm not sure
that Defense would have them.
No, but then State would.
Fine , fine, all right. States , that's my point.
State's got to get in on it . Henry ' s -- you gotta
check Lynn and, uh, this fellow Cwok - - what's his
name? Is that his name?
Cook .
Cook . He was there right? Is.h=one that had access
to this stuff?
He had access to the Vietnam studies in the -- uh,
3
NIXON: Yeah.
MITCHELL : (unintelligible)
HALDEMAN: •. since ' 69 when at State. Yeah.
EHRLICHMAN: I don ' t think we really know what -- we don't
know what they are.
MITCHELL:
(Unintelligible)
No. The only information I have and it's what,
apparently, he told Mel Laird and it was the
fact that they were Nixon papers.
And that they came from Ellsberg?
MITCHELL: Yes. Ells Ellsherg.
NIXON: Ellsberg.
MITCHELL: Ell sberg . That ' s correct.
EHRLICHMAN: But that's all you can tell me.
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
Well , as I say, he
Nel l, in any event, when you say Nixon papers --
Are these papers - - not apparently from me , if,
uh , or, or are they?
No. I understood --
I don't see how they coul d be - - -
-- t hat they were --
••. because I, I ' ve scared Henry within an inch
of his life from the time he ' s been here . He ' s
never going to get anything from me out on anything.
EHRLICHMAN: Well, I gather these are to or from you
the other. And --
one or
NIXON: I t wouldn't be from me . They ' re not from me, John,
because they ' re written from Henry. You know what
I mean. The NSC - - that ' s the way it's done.
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
4
I, I understood it as being during the Nixon
Administration.
Correct.
That's as much information as I have on it.
We ' ll know in a couple of days.
The 8th ' s --
If he makes good on it. but in any case, if
Ellsberg's sources are contemporary.
I, I believe that.
And if they're -- and the main point I would
to get at when I ' ve got -- I think we ' ve got
to get at the conspiracy angle here. Uh,
El l sberg is not a lone operator. EIIsberg is
a , he's a, - - I don ' t know who's in it. Maybe
Lynn is in it. Maybe Cook is in it. Uh. I ' m
not speaking just to the New York Times -- I
understand they're going to do something about
Sheehan - - whatever his name is. That's uh ,
but, but he ' s uh f he ' s a party once removed.
But we have got to get at the people . . •
(unintelligible)
• . . who are conspirators in it
- - becuase that's one thing we find the public
supports -- the public want, the people they
want Ells , Ellsberg prosecuted probably because
of his, because they, they understand, that
threat. They may not want a newspaper -- they
maybe want a newspaper to publish it, but they
don't want, they don't want a guy to steal it.
That ' s the , that ' s the general thing that I see
from everything that I ' ve been able to pick up
here - -
We ' ve had a crew --
I think if we could get a, the conspiracy thing --
NOw, the other thing, John . I think it's, I think
we need cooperation from Hoover, uh , in terms of,
uh - - This has to be tried in the, in the papers,
in the newspapers, you understand what I mean?
Let me say that there is , uh , the , uh , maybe , I
don ' t mean Ellsberg, Ellsberg now has already been
indicted, or has he? - - No.
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MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
5
Yes . He's under indictment .
-- been charged --
No , he's indicted. He ' s -- been indicted by
a grand jury.
Yeah, yeah . I see . Indicted. Well , the
point is that. that, uh, as far as the others
are concerned , the way really, to get the
conspiracy out is to get it out through paper s,
through Congressional sources, through, uh,
newspapers and so forth and so on, and smoke
them out that way. Uh, it ' s the only we were,
we were able to crack the Hiss case and the
Bentley case. In other words, '''e could, and
then, we didn ' t have the cooperation of the
government. They were fighting us, but we
God damn well (uninte lligible) got it out .
And in this instance, these fellows have all
put themselves above the law and, uh, including
apparently, including two or three of Henry's
staff and by God we're going to go after 'em
because there's just too much stuff in there
no\oI that I don ' t want another one of his boys
to leak it out. That's why, -- I, John , you
cannot assume that Henry ' s staff didn't do
thi s . Now , I've had Haig in here right now
and Haig says he couldn ' t believe Lynn did any-
thing. Lynn has left. Now he's over working
for Richardson. I ' d get him in and I ' d question
him. Did you do this? And I ' d polygraph him.
I think we ' ve got to do that for Lynn. I think
you ' ve got to do it to -- for Cook. Because
we've got to find out whether people currently
in, who , who, Jesus he's still in the government .
Now , Richardson isn ' t going to like it, but I,
I don ' t know how, what else we can, we can do
to, to get at this thing. Uh, the uh, think,
the Ellsberg prosecution - - it ' s a -- you've got
a pretty good man on it, have you? Who's that?
Well, it ' s under Hardian's department and
we've got ••
Is that Mardian?
HITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
6
and we've got some of the better people ..•
Good, well
working on it. A fell by the name of
Vincent . They ' ve , \'1e ' ve been - - we ' ve had a
crew working over the weekend with DOD on this
conspiracy concept . . .
Have you?
••• that we put together.
How, what kind of
from them, John?
DOD?
Yeah.
Good
Now, Laird
cooperation
Is it - -
are you getting
• as, as, far as , as far as we can tel l.
is Laird?
It I S Buzhardt
y ' see, ya see , ya see, Laird's gone , but Laird
sat in here as you recall and said he had all this
thing -- that he thought it was a conspiracy and
so forth but they've got a much bigger outfit
\.,:orking on this than Edgar Hoover has.
I know they have. But I want to tell you , Mr.
President -- after Mel Laird said that that day ,
I asked Buzhardt over the next day and they weren ' t
even close to it. They had Cook and Ellsberg - -
those are the only two. . .
Is that right?
• • • two they had.
they are? Just hulling?
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MI TCHELL:
7
But, uh, they are, of course, these obvious
leaks that go back into the Halperins, or the
or L a r ~ y ·Ly,nn or the rest of them and that's
what they've been working on over the weekend
and I 'll have a briefing on that today .
John, would you like -- do you think it would
be well to put, uh, to put uh, for you to put
some -- oh, maybe that isn ' t the place for it.
Maybe the place for it's up in a committee of
Congress. Let Ichord and his bear cats go
after it. Uh , what I'm getting at is, that , uh,
you've got the Ellsberg case. I, I ' m not so
interested in getting out and indict±ng peopld
and then having our mouths shut. I'm more
interested in frankly, getting the story out , see
the point? That ' s even on the Ellsberg thing .
I ' m not so sure that I'd would. that I'd want
him tried, convicted we had to do that because
he ' s admitted -- but as l ong as we can , uh --
Well, uh , we have Ellsberg back into some of
our domestic Communists.
Have you?
Yes.
You really have?
YUp .
Domestic Communists -- now, that's that's great.
That ' s the kind of thing we need.
That ' s right. And we ' re putting the story to-
gether. He ' s been, attended meetings out in
Minnesota and, uh, for this Communist lawyer in
a trial out there and we ' re putting al l that
together. We ' re gettin' --
Is that , is that the result of Hoovet or the
Defense Department , do you think?
You mean the information?
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
B
Yeah.
It, it came out of a U.S . l>iarshal out in
Minnesota who, uh . • .
NIXON: Oh?
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
HALDEHAN:
MITCHELL:
HALDEMAN:
MITCHELL:
HALDEl>1AN:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
NIXON:
-
. recognized the guy and recognized his
background
Great
and had , had him under surveillance at
one of those meetings .
MID Bmm.
Shouldn't somebody get at -- I assume they
keep the files on all those taps when we were
r unning all those people through.
You knO\'1 t h a ~ s
Halperin
This -- In light of this, some of that stuff may
be a hell of a lot more meaningful now
I
than it was then.
I, I, I ' ve had them reviewed in the Bureau .
There were a lot of conversations with Sheehan
in them, to my recol l ection.
Were there?
I think there were . I may be \'1rong but I sure
think there was . And nobody would agree --
(several talking at once)
In light of
to read it .
any of that
current history who's got the
I haven ' t , I naturally never
stuff.
time
saw
I
HALDEf.1AN :
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
9
\,le11 some of it may have been gobbledy goak
at the time but it may
Well. at Bob is right . You hever know what
those taps mean
No.
• until it relates to . • •
No •
. something. And they're being reviewed.
EHRLICHHAN: John, don't you think that , uh, ... e could get
ourselves into a, into a dilemma if Hardian
begins to develop evidence on this conspiracy
and we want to go on a non-legal approach --
either leaks or through the Ichord committee.
If it, if it gets too -- if, if, if the Justice.
NIXON: ' too far down the track
EHRLICHMAN:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
• .• (Unintelligible) .•. too much in the
predominance so to speak in the development of
this - -
Well. it's my idea that we should only pick
out the hard cases to try where we know we can
convictions.
John what is your feeling on -- speaking of
hard cases, now -- uh. Or, are you, do you say
that you're gonna , they ' re having a grand jury
do you, did somebody told me that Cheean or
Sheehan --
EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, Mardian told me that.
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
\,lell, we're running a grand jury in, in Boston
which doesn't necessarily relate to
I see.
It relates to the overall case.
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
10
Now, on Sheehan. Let ' s talk about that. Is
that smart? Just, just being quite candid.
Is it smart to go after Sheehan? My feeling,
off the top of my head, is to convict that
son of a bitch before a committee.
Shehan?
~ ~ k e him the (unintelligible) Here's the
point. Uh. Let me say that, uh 1et me, let
me recap in my own mind the whole attitude on
the whole thing on this . First , and despite
all the beating and so forth you've taken, you
di d the right, we've done exactly the right
thing up this point. You had to get that case
to court . It had to go to the Supreme Court
and when you read those , when you read the, the
the opinions -- as even Scotty Reston agreed
it, it gave them goddam little comfort.
This is the general census in the newspapers now
which I think is right.
Right , that's right.
• which I think is right and great.
But my point is that it had to be done. On the ,
on the other, on the next point , however , I think
that having done that and now, now, we've got to
continue to protect the security of these, these
things - - having in mind our own security - - but,
not recognizing that there is , in my view, I
thi nk there is -- I , I won ' t say there , but
there's very , it seems to me, pretty good evidence
of a conspiracy. Do you feel there ' s a conspiracy?
Well , yes.
I don ' t just don ' t know.
HITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
11
Nell, I know there ' s a conspiracy, uh ,
because of the fact that, uh, our East Coast
conspiracy people in Massachusetts are the
ones that are, have been distributing the
documents
Uh, huh.
••. which we \"ill be able to develop. Uh.
With respect to, uh Ellsberg and the papers
that Mathias has, obviously, there's somebody
else other than Ellsherg is taking them out
of the government and uh, we may have some
problems finding that guy , but hopefully we
will be able to. That guy or guys . Let me
put out one other factor in here. I don 't
know whether you noticed it , but uh, uhis
statement that I put out with respect to the
court decision, that the court decision spoke
for itself •••
Yes, yes (noise) but you were going to --
• • • but that it reserved all of our criminal
appreaches and .••
That's exact, that's exactly right.
No , what we have got going there is the Post
has fallen over and ~ a y i n g dead. They, y' know,
they're talking to McComber. They want to give
him back those sensitive documents and everything
else.
You've gotta watch (unintelligible)
,
And they want to give McComber back all the
sensitive documents.
(Unintelligible)
Now, the reason for this is , and I've just let
it sit there , is that if we ever convicted the ,
the Post or Katie Graham she 'd l ose all of her
television and radio licenses.
J
NIXON :
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
I.fITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL :
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NI XON:
12
(Unintelligible)
•.• and radio licenses so I ' ve just let
this thing sit there and let ' em sweat
Great.
. • • and , let • em s\',eat. But uh, I think
personally feel at this time that it would be
a mistake if we start indicting newspaper s
Nm ... , what , what I have
You ' re right about that .
... ,hat I have structured
Tr y em in the papers
• oh yes (unintelligible) now what I have done
is , is get these grand j uries going so we can
get all of this information and hold it. Keep
the investigation going and then make our determi-
natiol'E as to who we ... ,ant to indict and who we don ' t
wa nt to indi ct. We don ' t have to bring down an
i ndictment out of the grand jury if i f we
don ' t want to . Uh , so that we can put the mosaic
together and then have l ook at it and see
where we ' re gonna go. And I have of course a hold
on everything - - not to put out anything which
won ' t - - out of the grand jury. There ' ll be no
i ndict ments, no bringing Sheehan before the gr and
jury or anything l ike that until we put the pieces
together and see what we've got .
What we would l ike, what I would like, John, is
this I would like to have a , see , I ' m keeping up,
get a , and I ' ve gotta see somebody in Rose on
something, just a little peek, and I want t o see
Fl anigan very briefly before I l eave, we can walk
out to the airfield, well , it ' s not important ,
and I ' ll l et you know \V'hen it ' s ready.
UNIDENTIFIED: Right , r ight
NI XON: And the other thing is , I think right now I have
a feeling you're in an excel lent position to go
forward lett i ng the leaks and ever ything e l se out
which woul d indicate that these bastards a r e gui l ty
as hel l and uh , I, uh , can , cannot wait for , uh,
the convi ction of El lsberg and so forth (unintel l)
HITCHELL:
NIXON:
}.lITCHELL:
NIXON:
13
No, I, I quite agree.
I think, we've got, I think the conspiracy
side of that ' s why I hope, I think, I think
we ' ve got to go out . If you would tell
Hoover to work people (unintelligible) Defense
outfit and push Laird, is it, or or whoever
it is - - Buzhardt.
I believe Buzhardt (unintelligible)
Make that son of a bitch get it done. Tell
him we want it done. I'm cutting off. I've
I find shocked amazement to find that this
stupid Administration sold this classified
(uni ntelligible) and everything else . Now,
we ' re gonna start getting tough. Where are
those names? Now I asked for those names this
morning.
UNIDENTIFIED: (unintelligible)
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
NIXON:
None of you asked what I want . I want them
on my desk. Every former ten Johnson Administra-
tor who ' s not in the government I want his God
damned name (unintelligible) so we can removed.
I was out for eight years . I've never , they re-
fused me CIA briefings. What the hell , it would
have beautiful opportunity to have offered --
(Unintelligible)
That's right. But does this sound like a good
game plan? Ne ' re going to keep this one step
away from me . (unintel ligible) relation. I'll,
I'll know what's going on and (unintelligible)
Buchanan knows how to tell
I hope they won ' t be using Victor Lasky.
Lasky? You mean as a leaker?
MITCHELL: Yes.
HALDEMAN: He ' s a leaker of last resort. If nobody else'11
print it, Lasky will (laughs)
14
EHRLICHHAN: ~ ' l h o , ... ill uh, who will manage this grand jury
while you're gone?
NIXON: Mardian.
EHRLICHMAN: Mardian?
MITCHELL: Mardian and Kleindienst. But, thank God, as,
as I say, this is a fact finding expedition
to put together the mosaic and not to take any
action at all without my approval .
EHRLICHMAN: Good.
NIXON:
NIXON:
HALDEMAN:
llITCHELL:
NIXON:
MITCHELL:
Y'know
(3D second deletion)
It shows you the pay-off, though, uh the
Washington Post and the Times both have swamped
slop over , uh, beautiful stories '(on Gurfim
and that, I mean son of a bitch of a Republican ..
There \'1ere others. There ' 11 be no more.
Of course , I realize that undoing there'll be
no (unintelligible)
Probably would have, Gurfe! n probably \<lould have
consulted you.
That's right. Well, enjoy your trip.
You ' ll follo'" up then with Laird, and you , and
you press hard Buzhardt . In other words; play
the game in a public vein . Take off Sheehan, you
figure that if we knock too hard it ' s gonna --
What do you think? What ' s it {unintelligible)
I think we ought to see what the whole picture
i s . We know what Sheehan has done , but we don ' t
know how deeply he was involved with Ellsberg.
uh. He is
EHRLICHMAN: l'lill he
testify?
do you have any reason to think he'd
MITCHELL: Sheehan?
15
EHRLICm.lAN; Yeah.
MITCHELL: No. I wouldn't want him to testify because
if he did, he ' d ask for immunity and that would
be the end of it.
That's right.
MITCHELL: And we can get the testimony out , we know
You can never , you can never get Sheehan
except on the testimony of uh witnesses
MITCHELL:
HALDEMAN:
on the , uh well , uh , on the committee or on
testimony of others, others , limited , and so forth
and so on .
Well --
All \.,e I d have to do get maybe somebody who
received the stuff .
EHRLICHt<1AN : Plenty of people , people have been convicted
without (unintelligible) it ' s a terrible lesson .
MITCHELL: Sheehan , Sheehan's wife was one of them. She ' s
got a quite a pol ice record including shoplifting
down here in \'1ashington .
UNIDENTIFIED: Nell, I suppose , (unintel ligible)
HALDEMAN : She has no expectation.
HITCHELL: No , no("'of them have any immunity explicit or
(uni ntelligible)
NIXON: We 're we're •..
EHRLICHt-lAN: 1'le 're going to have to gather this information
in that ' s available to the President.
MITCHELL:
All right . Dick Noore has been working on some
of this. He ' s got a lot of the background
memoranda.
EHRLICHMAN: He 'll be (unintelligible)
HITCHELL : (unintelligible)
EHRLICHMAN: He can ' t (unintelligible)
rHTCHELL:
Yeah .
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T HE WHITE HQUS:::
WA!>HINGTON
Odober 22 , 1971
MEMORANDUM FOR: BUD KROGH
FROM: GORDOK LIDDY !
THE DlRECTORSZP OF THE FBI SUBJECT:
History
The FB! was bOrn in another age. Six years after the doughboys
came home frolTl F r ance at the end of \VoTIc! \'(ar I, AlTlerica w<>.s
still rural. O.ltside of her citie!'>, paved roads were fcw. The auto_
nlObile was just tnakinz its impact felt upon our society, The United
States had entered World War I with like 600 machine
guns in its entire armed forces. The Germans had thousands and they
t errorized the farmb oy tUl."ned doughbo>' who r cturned hOtne with tal es
o f it s awesorne po\ver.
T h e crimi nal e l ement quickly, exploited the new technology a nd mar -
ri ed the machine gun to the automobi!e . Roving Inobilc bands
i nto town and staged bank robberies which were the mechanized equi-
valent of wild west raids . The hinterlands were in terror of the
Dillingcrs, the n",rkers , the F l oyds, the Nelsons, Donnie and Clyde .
T here are towns i n Indiana today with concrete pill boxes in their
mai n square built i n t he 20 ' s and 30' s as miniatul'C Maeinot lines to
d efend against what was called "auto- banditry. "
Sincc'1908, there had existed in the of Justice a small
u nit known as the Bureau of Investig<:.tion . It was incompetenl: and
corrupt. J , Edgar Hoover, a young Justicc Dcpartmcnl" Jawyer , hin1_
self i n his 20 ' s , was called npon by then f:..ttorne), General IIarlan F .
Stone to serve as the 5th Djl"cctor of the Bu!"cau of Investigation to
c l ean it up and t urn it into the response to the criIninai challenl;(e de-
manded b)' the publ ic.
· H oover met the ch allc:1[!c . He fought wUh t Cl.: h no!ogy,
v irtually invcnting practic<l.J IOI'CllSic crimi:l<1- l !.;("j("!lc(.: and \h(! cr i me
/
/
f
" ,
i
:/
lab
1
and orga.nized practical mass :identification proccduT(:S built.
\'flOn the ltCW fingerprint technology. 2 For patronage h ... cks . he
subslituted young l awyers and accountants, depression hungry and
c<t:::er to odD a job .. Hoover knew each man by name . There was mutual
trust and respect. By the late 1930's , skill and dedication brought
success and with success spread lhe IaITle of Hoover and his "G-men. "
The organization was paramilitary in nature . Discipline was strict
and one thing became crystal clea.: the new FBI was created in
image and likeness of J . Edgar Hoover, and thou shalt not have false
gods be [ore thee. One who found this out was Melvin Purvis, the
brilliant nemesi s of J ohn Dillinger. By the mid 1930's, Purvis' fame
rivaled Hoover 's. On the back of breakfast cereal s. children were
offered "Junior G- man" badges so that they could be just like Mel vin
Purvis and the FBI. Hoover crushed him. history was rew'ritten>
giving the credit to agent Samuel P. Crowley. Years later. Purvis died
a suicide.
Master of modern l aw enforcement. master bureaucrat and charismatic
l eader> Hoover had good instincts and judgment. At the height of his
fame he resisted t h e opportunity to forrn a national police force be-
cause he judged it to be wrong for America. In stead he formed the
FBI National Acadelny4 to h'ain state and local police to FBI standards .
With ,Vorld \Var II came a new challenge --Axis espionage .
Again, Hoover cxploited the latest in technology -- priJnilive but
(:Ciectjve concealed sound recording equipment and disguised motion
p i c ture calTIeras . The FBI h ad its own continuous wave back channel
communication system from oIIice lo office and even Hawa ii. Finger-
print s wct'e put on the then brand new IBM ca rel sorting eguipment in
the D:C , National Guard Arlllory. The greatly expanded FBI could>
at the end of World War li. claim correctly that there had been not one
successful act of enemy sabotage carried out jn the United,States in
\\'orld War II. as contrasted with the Black Tom explosions and other
sabotage during World War 1.
1. November 24 , 1932
2. June, 1930
3 , Who was hardly in ,l position to disclaim it, C rowley died tlndel- the:
guns of "Baby Face N'f>ls.on'" Iou I' months after t he dcath of Dillingc\·.
4. July 29. 1935
-2-
, ,
,.
.I
I
/
/
5
The cold W<l.r was \0 order for IIoover ;·r:d th(l Fl.:.!. ilnd i.t
went inlo the alld hard. Nl'l:>tcrful IC<Lts of cland(!.!;tiI:e
cOllntcr-e:;pionage were ::l.ccornpt-islu::ci, and FBi w;,.s rightly to
he [(,;onee by fOI'eign intelligence agencies .
The Korea>"\ \'far b rought .mother but an internal
was t aking place. No lonuer werc all <:-gents recruited horn skill..::d
professionals such as lawyers, accountants, scientists and
lVIoreover , the cult of Hoovt:r had begtm to flower , and a lot of good
men wt;lt"e leavjng. It becoming more difficult to replace them.
Much is made in the popu!al' press of the so-called "petty tyrannies. "
This is misplaced concern. Crack FBI agent" accepted the 24- hour
disc i pline and the sma.ll annoyances, They knew that the inHated auto
l'ccovery figures, the rneticulous records lhey were forced to keep
on informant contacts that were unjust-ified by production, t.he pro_
image, etc,. all helped Hoover wh{!n he went bcIol'e Congl.' css
f en appropriations . 6 They were also aWOlre that in the: clandestine way'
against ruthless ent':mies every bit as professional as they were, l a.ck
of discipline could be deadly.
T h e "pelt)' tyrannies" could be tolerated hecause of one ereat psychic
l·c\varcl . The FBI aer,nt he was a melnber of an c l itc corps .
I Te considered the discipline u'nder which he labored tougher than the
U . S. l'I1arincs ,mel jts reasons for be i ng nnalof{ons to that of the Corp!> .
The country knew it too, and respected the 2.gents accol'elingl), . The
burden was bea r able and nlorale b"c<':llse the FBI knew i n
t heir 11",<l.1"is " We I re Number One . I,
.Thi ngs Start To Go Wrong
I n t he'carly 1950's there the plwnom.enon oI the "Bureau
clerk." These were young men vrithoul the cduca1h")n prcrequisitcs
b rought in 10 t he lelentification Djvision for \;,(' mosl part <!s clerk!;
.and sent oH t o ca rn t1.n accounting degree Irmn such duLious insti-
t utions as Southeastern in Washir,r,ton, D. C. They then
5. The FBI had h ecn inv('stigatine the acth'it"i cs . lntc1:.." ll ia . oC tl1e
Conlmunist Party, U. S.A., it cnte1·cc the dOlncf;tic inlcllir,ence
fi c1 :1 pursuantlo secret jll:;lruclloJlS from Pres i dent Roosevelt isslt('d
1, 1936.
( >. And the- highe:;t p<t)' in law enforcCll1ent fn!" tlw ilgcnts -- bcginninf!"
::;alary toda y is $i'l, 000.
- 3-
!
/
/
became Specia l Ageuts and earned i'l. sala.ry the y coc1d not hop<:: to
approil.ch outside th.: FBI. Reached at an early age, they
true bo::Ef::vers in the cult of Hoover . 7 Jealous of the more comp<:_
tent professionals ,. and unwilling to disagree with HOOVtH' on any_
thing.
8
as they rose by currying favor through
Hatte,y. the Bureau !.itarted to df::cline .
Hoover ' s assets , however, continue d to increase. The Crime Records
Division of the FBI is without doubt one of the finest public relations
organizations l?ver put together . 9 It has a legitimate purpose. The
extraordi.nary reputation of the FBI and its agents, fostered by the
Crime Records Divisioil with its motion pictures . books. xnagal!:i..'l.E::
articles, television and radio shows, speech program. pl-ess and
Congressional contacts, mean that an FBI agent win be given infor_
Jnation by a citizen that the citizen 'would not entrust. to any other agency.
When the FBI agent says the information will. be kept in COnfidence, he
i!l h elieved. The media impact is such that when a citizen is confronted
with a real FBI agent , the asent i s at a tremendous psychological ad-
vantage .
But here, too, things started to go wrong. More and more the Crime
Records Division spent i.ts time building up and protecting the reputa-
tion of Hoover. Hoover and the Bureau bt!c .... mc synonymous . -To itttack
one was to a ttack the other. long as the Crime Records Division
coul d keep Hoover away from the press, it could work wonders. But.
contrary to the widely held impression, IlOO\'el: is not a reticent man.
7 . And competitive ritual sycophants , baking cakes (or Hoover's birth-
day; :Joliciting ever morc flowct"}· service club testimonials, ctc .
S. The most absurd manifestation of which led to a rewr i ting of the
history of the Trojan 'War . For a speech on communism, a draft
Lo Hoover for approval compared the U. S. Communist P lrty with the
leeendary Troj an HorSE::. The draft came back with the rnarginal nota-·
t ion in blue ink, " They're not horses, they're snakes! -- H." The draft
was " corrected" and thus was born the Trojan
9_ By Louie B. Nichols, who went on to become Vice Presidcnt uf Schenlcy
Industries_ Alter Nichols left the FBI, Boove r rcmarked, "I never want
another man. to have such powet· in this orga nization again. 11
-4-
----
In recent yE:ars he ha::. become even Inore of a hip-shooter; lately
even departing the care(uUy prepare d scripts (or his Congres!;ional
appearances. Thus, the Ber't"igan pro'31e m, t.he Martin Luthe r Kin;?;
incicI.::nt, · th!:: CIa rk quote, and so on.
The concern with image, the cultisrrt, has finally taken its toll.
Virtually <'lny genuine innovation Or imaginativE: approach is
for fear of outside criticism. That which occurs is often doni:: by
fkld agents on their own initiative, "'lith great pains taken to prevent
Bureau Headquarters from learning of it. The morale of the FBI
agents in the field has deteriorated b a dly, not because of the rule on
hait'cuts and no coffee at the desk, etc., but because in his heaTt the
FBI agent can no longer say. "We're Number One. "
The Present Situation
The greatest decline has been jn the performance of the Domestic
lntelligence Division. As previously reported, all clandestine activities
have been terminated. Liaison with the intelligence community has been
disrupted and key men either forced out or relegated to posts where
their skills cannot be cY..ploited. Should the Republic of China
be admitted to the United Nations, the establishment of its delegatiOJl
will bring a quantum increase in the presence on U. S. soH of some of
t.he finest espionage agents in 'the wodd. Thus, the DOITlestic Intelli-
gence Divi5ion, the one most badl}" will be presented with
a increase in its task at a tilTH" when it cannot perform compelcn::ly
the task at hand.
Rel ations between the FBI and the Department of Justice, llever good
but for a short period after the advent of this Adnlinistration, arc again
deteriorating. Hoover r efers openly to Assistant Attorney General
Robert Ma rdian as (inaccurately) "that Lebanese Jew." He has reported!)'
threatened the President . Recently there have been al'tic:1es in The
WashinNt:on Post , The New York Tim.es, Time and Life, which indicate
that offiCials and/or former officials at the highest level of the FBI aTe
now divulging to the pl'es::; the serious shortcomings of Hoo\'er and the
Bureau.
So long <tfi anti-Hoover press stories concerned themselves with the:
so-callecl "petty tyrannies" there was no real prohlem. Su(Ch stories
-5-
r---!
(

arc not new, and are disregarded <:\5 the rrluttc)-ings of disgruntled
former juniol." employees . It is quite another siLualion when clandes-
t.ine techniques are discussed openly and the security of the United
Slates against foreign espionage and i s called into !ierious
question.
Years of intens\': adulation have inured Hoover to self-doubt. He
remains realistic, however, and on June 3D, 1971, his most trusted
confidante. Clyde Tolson, stated to a reliable sOurce, "Hoover knows
that no matter who wins in '72. he's lhrough. "
Hoover has had long, honorable and remarkable Cal-eel' . His accom_
plishments arc truly great. But the situation was probably best st.<!ted
by Alfred Tennyson in "The I dylls of the King":
" The old order changeth, y ielcing place to new,
And God fulfills himself in many ways,
Lest one good custom should corrupt the WOrld . "
J. Edgar Hoover should be replaced as Director of the FBI. The
question is when?
Timing
One foresees no real accomplislling the change following
the 1972 election. The question then resolves itsel£ as to whetner the
step should be taken before that time.
There are a number of reasons arguing against remOving Hoover as
DircctOl' of the FBI during 1972:
I.. Th e ch;;!nge should have attached to it no hint of partisan
p olitics, virtually all im.possibility in a presidential campaign year.
Jf the removal does not become an issue, the question of r;Uccession
wB!. It is in t.he categol'Y of a Supt'eme Coud appointment and carries
with it the nece ssity of a confirmation hearing: in the Senal:e.
2. 1972 will see the trial of tho:: Berrigalls and E lI sberg com_
mence. The removal of Hoover in the: COurse or those trials WOUld.
at least, knd weight to what arc sure to be ctC'[ense contentions of i:l
conspiT;>.C'"y to justify Hoover ' s accusation agn.inst the
-6-
I
The cnmpe tl ing rea!iOn against action in 1972 I:; tht:
probability that iS$ue-starv.:cl Denloc:ats be upon to
exploit lhe malt(!r even to the poi.nt of ir r espons ibility.
The can, therefore, be hrthe r: zhould J. Eclgal:
Hoove r be as Din,cto r of the FBI between now and the end
of the y e,::n"?
Arg ttnlents Against Immed iate Re moval
1. . Hoover could rE,sist and ma'!;:e good his threat against the
President. 1 am unaware o( the na ture of the thre at and, there:fore,
cannot comment on the acceptabilit y of the ri sk involved.
2. Removal of Hoover willllot gain the Pre.sident any votes on
the left. The anti-Nixon bias of the l eft is visceral, not r:.I.tiona.l.
On the other hand, some of the Tight CQuid bE: alienated if the s uccessor
naITled is acceptabl e .
3 . The succession could bec ome an' issue unless someone i s named
who would be acceptable to both the left and the right, a difficult person
to identify.
4 . We WOllld be prc:sented with the pro1.Jl cm of finding a suitable
successor in a short pc l'iod of time .
,-,
5 . Even \vere the Peoples Rep""lbli c of China admitted to the United
Nations tomorrow, in all p robabi l ity it \ ... i11 be a considerable period of
t )n1.e before it is ready t? sta£I its delegation.
6 . Hugh Sidey is wrong, 10 there will b e no "convulsion" in the
FBI if Hoover is not replaced immediatel:,r.
Aq!uments For I.mmediale RCITlov<,l
1. Sullivan, and possibly art:: talking to the press. The
i nfornlation i s accurate , substanti\' (; and 11
lO. "The crisis in the FBI finally dcrnam!ed President ' s ) action.
The: Olzing J. Edgar 1100ver would h;;.\·c Lo be cased out b(' £orc the cnd of
the )'C'ar or Ni.xon would face a Illajo:' convulsion in the FBI. ... " l .ife,
Oct. 22, 1971, "!leady Days Of Pmvel·."
11. Sec : " F . n. 1. I s Said to Have Direct Ljai!;on With C.I.A. " .!,YT,
Oct. 20, 1971 A); "])derinr ..... ti .. ;, of t h« FTU" Oct. 11, 11)-'
(Tnb B); "The File on J. Edgar JIO{'>·.·C I·" Tinlc, Oc t. 25. 1<)71 (Tab C).
-7-
1 think we lnust assume that there will be no let _up o C trdy d amagi ng
dis c losures.
· 'M:u-:ine Cheshire in tue 'ITashin.r!ton Post for Octo-
b er 21st that "a former FBI officia l [SuHi.vanJ t. ook c o pies of
enough records with him when he left to wrile a book. Now
he i s loo!.;;ing for a journalist collaborator . II
• ] am informed r eliably that Su.llivan to b e vindi_
cated." At 59 a nd out of office, there is no payoff for him
in remaining quiet. Others may follow Sulliv.l.r/s example .
· Evans and Novak in the ir column of October 11th said
that there was "more to c ome . II
Life is believed to have major t:tory in the works.
Sullivan has been II keepi ng book" on Hoover for some time.
He is a skilled writer who authored Hoover ' s book on
His book could be devastating should he choose to expose such
m atte":; as the supervisor who handled Hoover ' s' stock portfolio
anrl t.n: matte rs; the paint ing of Hoov(n"s house by the FBI Exhibi.t
Se ction; the ghost wriling o( Hoover ' s books b y FBI ely,ployees;
the rewriting o( FBI history and t.lte "donation" by "adluiring"
fa cility owners of acco:mrnocl:tUons and .<:e n ' l ces which a re oHen
e in fact underwritten by contributions; and the d ismantling
of. the nat.ion
'
" counter-espior:age capabilil}'.
· In the pasl, when the FBI was perforITling its mission in
an manner, aggl'ie ..... ed forrner high officials hel d
their tongues in the belief that Lo go public would hurt :mission
perforrnance. Now that perfo!"m.ance ha!; fallen off, Sullivan
( obviou"ly) and others :may well believe that lhe way h est to pro-
t ect the FBI is t.o attack so lhat ule problem can be remedied.
l?. A Study or COIT\munism, 1I0lt . Rinehart f .... Winston, New York. 1962 .
- 8-
2. \vill b? no upheav;d in tlu.: FB! 5honld Hoover be
replaced inu't-:.ediately_ The vast majority of ..... would apprq-'''.
A fc:w old cronies , such as Clyde Tolson, could to
l·csig!l in a huH with, perhaps, public com;ncnt.
3. rernoval would gU<l.Tantee that the President
appoint the next Director of the FB!, something akin in importance
to a Supreme Court appointment o!,portunity.
4 . TIl(: Hoover incumbency would he undercut as a faclo. in
the forthcoming Berrigan and Ellsberg trials.
5 _ The matter '.'Iould be over and done with now and removed as
a potential issue for the 1972 carnpai ga.
6. Inaction, plus further disc losur es in the press, ·could lead
to charges that the President knew, or ought to have known, of the
serious detedoration of the FBI, and failed to act out of concern for
his re-election.
7 _ Short term, a prompt rcmov2.1 could enhance the President's
itnage as an action oriented President and confound his critics _
B. Long term, the action .. could be compat·cd legit imately to
the resolute stand taken by Truman in the Donglas
case which, unpopular at the t11ne, is now vi(;wecl as a plus in his
prcsidency.
9 . The country is, in my judgment, ready for the cht!.nge . The
situation somewhat analogous to that oI China.
Methods
1. The most desirable method would be for Hoover to ask the
President 1.0 find a succcssor as the "unfounded" personal attack,;: upon
JJoo\'er art!, in his judgment, har:nIullo the national interest in gen-
eral to his beloved FBI in particutar. Tllis might h e hl·ought about
through a Iv'iitchell-Hoover convers<'.Uon.
-9-
2. A 5t!cond amicable method Vlot:ld be for the President
himself to express the above to Hoove r. lIe might
wpH cooperate on that basis, werc t hi:tgs handled adroitly.
3 , T he President could simply announce now that on Janu_
ary I, 1972. he will not take the aHir:native action of seeki ng to
exempt Mr . Hoover for another year from the mandatory retire-
ment provisions oI the law, stating that he cannot in good conscience
do so a s neither he nor the country has the right to expect ::;0 much
of one man, and that he wishes to a nnounce whom hp. shall nominate
as a successor llOW so that there should be not the s lightest element
of padisan politics involved in the changeover.
Comment
Hoover is in his 55th year with the Department of Justice . 13 Even his
secretary dates from the first world wa r-Iii There is no d.ishonor. ex-
pre ss or implieq in asking a man in such c ircumstances to give up
the burden of oIEce.
Recomme ndation
After weighing all of the foregoing. 1 believe it to be in the hest
interests of the Natior.. , the Pres ident, the FBI and Mr . Hoover ,
that the Director retire before the end of 1971.
13.
14.
]918.
Since July 26, 1917.
II elen \\'. Gandy, who becaIT\e Hoover':; 011 2.5,
- 10-

SEC,RET
TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDING OF A
l>lEETING IN 'l'HE OVAL OFFICE BETw"'EEN
PRESIDENT NIXON and JOHN EHRLICHl1AN
OCTOBER 25, 1971 from 12:35 to
2:05 p . m.
,SEGRE-=f-
• ,r __ -: -:._,

SECRET
Noise
President
Ehrlichman . h lot of , uh - -
President. Yeah complicated matters
Ehrlichrnan . heavy going, right
President. That ' s very fine job they ' re doing (unintelligible)
Ehrlichman. 'I'hey ' re, they ' re good guys
President. people (unintelligible)
"Jriting sounds 12 seconds
President. (Unintelligible) judgments (unintelligible)
Ehrlichman. I , uh , I, uh , don ' t feel comfortable -- yet
President. (Uni ntelligible)
Ehrlichman. Nell, uh, I ' m satisfied "lith that , it's the basic
political question going for a new tax .
President. Yeah
Ehrlichman . • •• that bothers me.
President . (Unintelligible)
Ehrlichrnan . and , uh , (unintelligible with noise) necessary?
President . So?
Ehrlichman . I t I can see, I can see all kinds of negatives·
in it .. .
President. Yeah.
Ehrlichman .... in terms of people saying , you know, here ' s
the economy .
/'
President. Another thing, too , that I've been thinking about .
I ' ve been very interested to note that yt.rur, uh,
)'our, your fellows in their analysis of the pol l s
showed the rather modest support that \1e ' re getting
Ehrlichnan . That ' s right , that's right.
President. In other words , uh, it was less than I had predicted
SECRET
2
(unintelligible) .
be ac1Vai1 tag eo us I
SECRET
I, it might be, it might
guess.
Ehrlichman. (Unintelligible)
President . I can see, for example, Hhy \'Ie had to do entire
(unintelligible) It was basically an issue
that could have been a hell of an issue , otherwise.
Ehrlichman. Yeah, yeah.
President . Revenue sharing, I think \ora s just something we
just did ...
Ehrlichman. Defensive--
President . (Unintelligible)
Ehrlichman. Defense
President. Just to be doing something, to be trying
Ehrlichman. Well , it ' s, it ' s our answer to the problems
of the citi es, the farms
President. Problems of the (unintelligible) and all that,
as far as the average guy is concerned, it didn ' t
make much , uh, it didn 't make as much headway.
I wonder this year if, ah, t .. e really want to go
on a new, a great new initiative, I \'!onder, I
\'londer, I --
Ehrlichman. Well--
President. I •.• you see , the point that I , uh, raise and
incidentally, this is related also to our
problem on Hoover. I read his, I mean your
memorandum. That ' s a very good fellaH, is it Liddy?
Ehrlichman. Liddy.
President. Smart, isn ' t he?
Ehrlichman . Yeah, very.
President . Hust be conservative as hell
Ehrlichman . Conservative?
President . Smart. How ' d he get, \'lhy'd get in the Bureau?
SEGRET-
Ehrlichman.
President .
Ehrlichrnan.
'-. ... r;c' ~ " " e ­
v>...v i -, "::" 1
3
Uh,
lot
he
of
\"a5 Hoover I s ghost
Hoover ' s speeches.
Hriter. Uh, did a
(unintellig ible)
And Hoover fired him?
And, uh , no, no, he got
uh , he, he put in for a
him over in, uh---
disillusioned.
transfer and \V'e
And,
found
President. Let me tell you ...,hat I have a feeling on it.
It's a way out thing. His , his analysis of
Hoover from a psychological standpoint is
tremendously perceptive. vIe may have on our
hands here a man who will pull dONn the temple
with him, including me. I don't think he would
\V'ant to, I mean he considers himself a patriot,
but he now sees himself as McCarthy did, Benson
did, and perhaps Agnew does ...
Ehrlichman. Yep .
President. . •. now ••.
Ehrlichman. Yep .
President. ... as, he sees himself as a n issue rather than
the issue ,"hich is the great ...
Ehrlichman . ~ ' l e l l - -
President. . .. Heakness of any political man.
Ehrlichman . Ordinarily I would not, ...
President . Hickel did.
Ehrlichman. . .. ordinarily I t"ould not have sent you the
\>.Thole piece, . .
President . I heard the ,·,hole thing
Ehrlichman .... but I ",anted you to get that buildup
that this guy gave you.
President. 'I'hat piece would make a brilliant, brilliant piece
for a magazine, anyt'lay . He makes -- actually ,
and this is -- gets dQtom to your other point,
interestingly e nough, a stronger case for not doing
something on Hoover than doing something.
SECRET
4
Ehrlichman. Hummmrn , mrnrn
President . Nm1, there ' s something in betHeen
[noise]
Ehrlichman There must be
President. You see, first of all, the, after, let ' s suppose
\'1e, we , vIe get Hoover in a:1d I convince him vie
can ' t, or , you know, order, no way I'm gonna say
I didn ' t (unintelligible)
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President. Now, just let me run this by you, just occurred
to me right now, the helicopter the devious way
to get at a very entire difficult problem.
do that, then Hoover , through all of his
operatives , \., i11 piss on anybody that \'19 send
up there Nho other name. And I don ' t think he
will approve any other name . That's my guess .
You have the feeling maybe that he might approve
Pat Gr ay , i s that correct?
Ehrl ichman. Well , I , uh , I think Pat has a better chance than
most.
President . Yeah, But l ook , so you , so I send Pat Gray ' s name
up , then you come to something else . You ' re gonna
come into one of the hellest , damnedest Senate
confi=-mation fights you ever saw, \",ho is Pat Gray?
How is he qua l ified? He ' s a Finch, a
Nixon stooge , no ... , I agree he isn r t , you should have
have a proper Bureau , if you have somebody from
the Bureau, they ' ll say you should have somebody
from outside. And then, uh , Ramsey Clark will be
recommended .
Ehrlichman. [Laughs )
President . No , 1 1m serious .
Ehrlichman. I know, I know.
President . Now, there ' s a Hay to get around it . That \o,'e
defuse the whole god-damned thing . Hoover made a
very interesting point , he said , regardless of v.;ho
wins in ' 72 , he says, I ' ll probably be out . And
SECRET
5
of course he ' s right. Why doesn't he
announce now that I am, this is my last
year in the Bureau, I am submitting my
resignation effective on January 1st , 1972 .••
Ehrlichman. Hmmm mmm
President. . • . 50 that the new President, I mean, the
President ~ · ! h o · 5 elected, s o that I will not
be an issue in the campaign. The President
will select him, they ,elect anybody that
he "1ants. Now , let ' s look at that for a
moment. The weakness in it is that we ' ve
still got a t an inefficient FBI to screw
around ,.,i th for a year. I ' m not sure we can
do a hell about, a hell of a lot about the
efficiency of the FBI in a year anyway . Uh,
the, uh, the other weakness is that presumably
Hoover ' s enemies would be so furious at having
the i ssue removed they would continue on it .
But it' s pretty hard to take on a man when he
says "Now, I've,I ,Ithink I've had it. I ' ve
done my job and at the end of this, I, I might
give the new President , whoever he is , whether
it ' s President Nixon or it ' s ~ h , the other
president , I ... ,ant them to knm{ that this, this
is that I'm going to take the Bureau out of
politics.
Ehrlichman. uh huh .
President . Now from Hoover ' s standpoint , he just , he has
to real ize that he can't stay forever . He has
to realize that, that the new President , that at ,
uh , 78 years of age -- is that ,<{hat he would be
then?
Unidentified He ' s 77 now.
Ehrlichman. I don ' t know, I forget.
President. Anyway , uh , then , the , the advantage of that is
that, uh , well , ':that I ' m more concerned about
than anything else that I, I don ' t think we talked
through adeq'J.ately (unintelligible) of getting
Hoover out. It ' s going to be a problem. I should
think the confirmation project ,<{auld be one that
would make the Supreme Court look like, uh , you
know --
6
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President . Nhatcha doin ' about civil rights?
Ehrlichman. \'1iretapping and
President . l'lliat do ya ask about wiretapping .
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President. Nhat is the , ah on Hoover -- look up Hoover ' s
name and age.
UNKNOWN. Hoover ' s age?
President. Don ' t call the FBI to find out, just , just look
it up . I think it ' s 76 or 7 , I would want to
knm ... month of birthday. Ah , now, you , let ' s let's
look at that in terms of , uh ,
Ehrl ichrnan. One thing that ' l l happen --
President. No , I don't know, I don ' t knot'l, maybe it won't \"ork ,
but I, I guess , I guess , I I that I I think that t·:e
could get Hoover, I think I could get Ecover to
resign if I put it to him directly that without
it he's going to be hurt politically which I happen
to bel ieve if you do it otherwise. But I think if
he resigns , and I think , he ' s going to , I don't
think he ' s going to like it , I don ' t think I
I thi nk that your confirmation i s going to be one
he ll of a job. And you \'1ant to remember whoever
we appoint , uh, i s appointed at the "Till of the
President anyway. (unintelligible)
They can (unintelligible) if we lost the election .
Ehrlichman . Sure . You take the position that you ' ll pick hi1>
successor if you ' re elected.
President. Yes .
Ehrlichman. In other words , there ' d be no , uh , campaign issue
there .
President. Right , that ' s right . I ' m not willing to suggest
it now, who ' s it gonna be . I ' ll state only that
it ' s not gonna be Ramsay Clark. (unintelligible)
Tough. You knew, just say that's an issue, that
the FBI should not be an issue in the campaign, \ .. e ' 1
pick the very best possible ma n we can get at that
time. And that ' 5 it. gCr' P !:--:-:
_V _.
-

7
Ehrlichman . Uh , huh. Uh, huh.
President. In a feN.--
Ehrl ichman. Then he becomes a lame duck director .
President. Correct. So? Ho", much are you going to do
with the FBI anyway in a year?
Ehrl ichman. He can't
President. You can't do it. It's a hell of a job. I
can see it as a --shake up. If he bec omes
a lame duck director . But also he might
become a l ame duck director . Everybody ,
maybe, trying to let the o ld guy go out
without pissing on him ••• .
Yeah
President. . .• and say , look here , l et ' s .• •
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President . . .. and he tries to keep, he becomes a little
,·dl d-eyed, maybe, just trying to , you know
What kind of a , incidentally , what kind of a
man is Sullivan, incidentally ? I , I don ' t know
him.
Ehr l ichman. Nell, I don't know him at all, they tell me he is
President . I thought you did kno\v him.
Ehrl ichman.
President.
No , I never, I , I don't think I've ever met
or if I have I only met him on very short
acquaintance .
him
/
He seems to me, from the description , he ' s honest
and capable .
--thoughtful. Uh, he ' s astute , uh, uh, a very
sensitive guy, uh, apparently very well-spoken and
has, uh, very strong, uh , loyalties , running down
into the per sonnel of the Bureau . And, uh, uh, at
one time had an enormous amount of pO\oJer over there
delegated by Hoover.
SEGPFT
B
President. Oh , didn ' t Sulliva n do s ome of the intelligence
\-lOrk for Hoover --
Ehrlichman . Oh, yes.
President. And us.
Sure
That ' s right, sir. He \,/ill be 77 next birthddY,
which is January 1st.
l:resident . Pine. Now, you see , there it is .
Ehrlichman. Yeah
President. No, no man in his right mind can say at 78 the
President of the united States ought to be
appointing him as director of the FBI .
He ' s too old.
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
all of
Uh, Sullivan was the man vlho executed
your instructions for the secret taps .
President . So he knows all of them.
Ehrlichman. Oh , I should - -
President. l-li ll he rat on us?
Ehrlichman. Uh, it depends on hot ... he ' 5 treated .
dependent, it' s , see , uh , uh
It ' s
President. Can we do anything for him? I think we better.
rlliat he wants , of course , is vindication . He ' s
been bounced , in effect, and what he
is the right to honorably retire and so on . Uh ,
I think if you did anything for Sullivan, Hoover
,,:auld be offended, right now. it ,V'ould have to be
a part of the arrangement , whatever it is , that
Sullivan could be given an assignment some" .. here
else in the Government . And , uh--
Pres ident . Out of the Government. Yeah, he ' d be a hell of
an operator; ...
Ehrlichman . i'le could use him
President . He ' d do a good job.
Sc:CRET
NW#: 3651 4
__
9
Ehrlichman. \"'e could use him.
President . Hmm, Mitch and I agree
Ehrlichman . We could, we CQuid use him on other things.
President . Liddy ' s not on your committee?
Ehrlichman . He's got, he ' s got a fund of information and,
uhl uh, CQuid do , uh , could do all kinds of
intel!! ence and other \V'ork.
President .
Ebrlichman.
President.
Ehrlichman.
President.
Ehrlichman.
President.
He ' d be very, he ' d be very qualified for that
kind of a (unintelligible).
President. Hoover upsets me .
what he calls it?
"Is the sun dOHn "? is that
That's his favorite term.
Ehrlichman. Yeah, and, and, uh, he strictly in
orbit . You see he treated with the
President .
Ehrlichman .
Mardian ' s the "Lebanese Je\'I"
(Laughs) . Ya see that.
He ' s treated with the enemy so , uh , and he has .
Sullivan delivered the pepers to l1ardian that
are unbelievable I ' ve got up in r.ty safe.
All the inside documento . C(------
[PAUSE}
-
Doc l d : 314 438 54
SECRET
President.
Ehrlichman.
President.
,-
10
t'/h<lt do you lean to at the moment?
Hell, I like your
a cha nce to think
idea .
it all
I, uh, ha ven't had
through.
Hell, don't mention it to anybody.
Ehrlicbman. Nell, I Hon ' t .
Preside nt.
President.
The difficulty is that I have decided after
our a gonies over the Court that from now on,
and incidentallY this is the main reason for
not submitting it to the Bar in advance . "/e ' re
just playing everything very close to the vest
and you know, \'le, it ' s inevitable around here
(unintelligible) it doesn ' t affect you so
much as it does Kissinger , of course, uh, to
a certain extent (unintelligible) Petersen and
the rest , l-lhere 19 out of 25 bureaus did you
see that , in Washington said that the b ack-
grounders Here, uh I quite off the beat and so
forth and so on. l'1ell , fine , let's not have
them.
[7 MINUTE DELETION]
\'lell, digression , l et me say that I think that
the best way to do here is to--I feel it would
help us to, as \ .. e get closer to election, their
only interest is to , it seems to me that every-
time '''e, it gets out the fact that some poor
agent over here (unintelligible) say well that
was our last scandal .
Ehrlichman . Yeab. I saw that.
President. Nbo could possibly have done that?
Ehrlichrnan. Hell , you see the problem.
President. Some guy \ .. ho ' s tired.
Ehrlichman. Some low-level guy, in the NSC •••
President. Yeah.
. •. could have been callec---
President .
Ehrlichrnan.
Why the NSC, might have been over in, ub ,
HcGregor ' s shop.
It could have",been., it could have been.
e
'
- '

11
President. Oh , yeah. And there ' s another great
problem, John, Hith these people, \,;ith all
people, our peopl e , \'<'e could have done , vle
tried our best. There's another great
problem that , they've all liked to work for
an officer and they all like to say things
that they ' re (unint elligible) and also they
all \o,!ork hard , are tired, a nd most of them
drink ...
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President. . . . and it ' s then ...
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President. . .. that they .. .
Ehrlichrnan. Yeah
President. .. . get in trouble.
Ehrlichrnan. Yeah
President . I'll lay you money that three-fourts of the
time, it ' s like drunk driving. It' s three
fourths of the time, idiot statements are made
when somebody ' s had a drink, do you not agree? ••
Ehrlichman. Yeah, I ' m sure that's so.
President. and . ••
Ehrlichman. And when they 're off --
SEC.
--
12
President. . . and one of the reasons, one of the reasons ,
that, uh, back in the campaign , I mean, uh ,
uh, anybody like, when I go in to a campaign ,
\'lith a press conference and so forth , you have
to be just like a God damn Spartan and then v.'e
still make mistakes . But the point is, these
people, these people that try to handle things
the way they , they just , just, just their judg-
ment floats from people .
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President.
Ehrlichman.
President .
and even a jackass like Roml1ey , you kno'" ,
doesn ' t drink at all, he has his problems . If
he drank he ' d be crazy, you know.
(Laughs ] That ' s right .
Nell, in any case , they ' ve got to (unintelligible)
everything they s a y
Ehrlichman . They get caught off guard
President . Then they c an ' t say anything.
Ehrlichrnan . a t these damn receptions, ya know, the
press a r e floati n' around and the .
President. (Unintelligible)
Ehrlichman. . people can make a chance renark and , uh ,
President.
and there it goes .
But on the Hoover think, I just '''ant this so
closely held this, it ' s just got to be .
Ehrlichman . Nell , I .,.,on ' t say anything to anybody about it . "
Uh , I,
President. I'll be
Ehrlichman . . I,
President . I ' d li ke for you to be
Ehrlichman . . I \,'ould like to think about it .
---
. ,
13
President . I ' d like to think about the proposition of
my saying "Edgar, r think \-That you should do,
that you should get out now, because I don ' t
Hant to he in the position of trying to
pick a successor now, I think you should say
this is a matter which should be handled by
\'lhoever is the next President in the next
election and I do not \oJant to be an issue and
so I have submitted my resignation effective
then . I -- There ' ll be a lot to be said
for that ,
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President. a lot can be said.
Ehrlichman . I can see that .
President . So that I don ' t have, I mean, it -- then when
you get his resignation , .
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President . I ' ve got that, for one ' thing , but on the
o ther hand , I V' e don ' t have the agony of his
replacement
Ehrl i chrnan. Yep
President. which I think H'ou!d be a very great negative.
Ehrlichrnan . Yeah . And , before election you can begin
t he buildup o f the adulation and the .
President . That ' s right .
Ehrlichman. . .. prerEqJisites and the, and the Hedal of
Freedom and all that sort of stuff , uh .
President.
Ehrlichman .
I could call him, I would tell him right now
if I . . I don ' t know ,.,.hen he should make
this announcement , uh , no· ..... that ' s the other
thing, should he do it no",?
I think so. And I ' D. tell you vlhy.
President . (Unintelligible)
Ehrlichrnan. I think this . .
President . Princeton study?
Ehrlichman . . this Princeton thing is gonna get into
the folklore and it ' s gonna become a part
of the givens . It ' s be a part of the,
of the established findings.
President. Nell , when will that happen?
Nel l, the, the end of this month .
President. They told me that -- well , it ' s a very leftish
group .
Ehrlichman . Oh , it is, it ' s stacked , just stacked
President . So
Ehrlichman. Uh
President. So \"/e let a man be crucified by a stacked jUJ:Y.
Ehrlichman. No , I think
President . (Unintelligible)
Ehrlichman . No , I think if his resignation were in hand
you could afford to defend him. And I think
you can afford to do a lot of things for him
as a lane duck as you get into the campaign
\"hich be appreciated by his friends and
be virtually uncriticizable . And , and,
and I see that as a real --
President . Do some thinking about it
Ehrlichman. I Vlil l, I Vlill
President . . . and I'll tell you Hhat will happen .
Then you ahd Herb and and I
"'ill talk about it.
Ehrlichman. Okay
President . There ' s only the three. There's only one other
one that I might bl.'ing in on it is
His , his P . R. judgment is not infallible but
it , he has good antenna . C"! r--
Ul....VI "
15
Ehrlichman. Yeah
Presi dent. he hus a good feel
Ehr lichman. Yeah
President. And he doesn' t leak.
Ehr lichman. Yeah . All right, Hell , I '.,,-co ' t, I won't say
anything to the tI;o of them, but, uh, \-/hen
you ' re ready , \V'hy , uh , we ' ll talk it .
President. what I meant is , first , you give it
your judgment.
Ehrlichman. Yeah .
President . Oh , Hait a minute. You could , no , I ' ll tell
you Hhat you could do. Don ' t run it by
l.fitchell because I need to do that or I should
feel that, that this is not , I don ' t Hant him
to feel that this idea is coming from somebody
else, 1-1.itchell thinks he has to go , but I
\<{Quld like for you to kick it around. Do you
think you should kick it around with Moore or
do you just want to make --
Ehrlichman . Let me do this . Let me let t100re reo.d Liddy ' s
article and, uh , uh, I' ve got a copy of it --
President . Let me get it out of my file .
Ehrlichman . Okay -- and then I'll ,
Presi dent. He can read my copy .
Ehrlichman. . I ' ll to.lk to
President . I understand . Right .
Ehr lichman . I've got the only other copy of this .
President . lmd, uh, then l-loore?
Ehrlichman. l\nd then, let Dick and. r -- Dick and I ' ve talked
about Hoover ' s problem before . He ' s very con-
cerned about it.
16
President . But the idea just seer.,::; to me to have a
lot of merit in avoiding the confirmation fight.
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President . If He had an outstanding man '''hoever is sent
up oh, for example , a great state attorney
general that's , that , .. ould be a (unintelligible)
pretty good now Houldn't it.
Ehrlichman . Yeah.
President. I could name a surrogate Pat Brown or some-
thing like that . .
Ehrl i c hman. uh huh.
President . . or an Earl Narren .
Ehrlichman . Uh huh .
President . that ' d be the guy to put . .•
Ehr l ichman . Yeah .
President . in front of the Bureau . Uh , I don ' t
think a cop should run the Bureau .
Ehrl ichman. I don 't know. Haybe somebody like , uh , - - well,
hard to say.
Pres i dent. I don ' t know.
Ehrlichrnan. Uh , no , I don ' t think it should be a pol iceman ,
I think
President . Policemen are too narrow, too , uh - -
Ehr l ichman . It I s gotta be a guy \>lith great lIil l .
President . Did you know (unintelligible)
Ehrlichman . . and P . R. sense - -
17
President . You know, there aren ' t very many outstar.ding
people, I guess, in a P . R. sense in this
whole field operation .
Ehrlichman. I tell you , there ' s , t:lere ' s a young attorney
general in my state • .... he' s a very classy guy .
President. Te ll you another one who impresses me, he ' s
probably a Democrat, but he is the Attorney
General in Arizona.
Ehrlichman. No, he's a Republican.
President . Oh , he 's
Ehrlichman . He ' s damn good .
President . He said at a meeting there . .
Ehr lichrnan. Yeah .
President . "1here there were ,.,orkshops .•
Ehrlichman . Yeah
President . and boy , he \o:as sharp as a • .
Ehr lichman . That ' s right.
President. tack
Ehrlichman . Nell, he I s good. Uh , the guy in I llinois is,
this Scott , is pretty good . Uh, he ' s a little
on the, a little on the liberal side .
President. Scott is?
Ehrlichman. Isn ' t he?
President. Nell--
Ehrlichman . He ' s , he's all H r a p ~ e d up in the environment
business .
President . That's all right .
Ehrlichman. . and, uh, .
President. Perfectly all right .
Ehrlichman.
President.
18
. . but. uh, no this, c;uy in
Arizona is
Your guy
Arizona,
is good .
He ' 11 put
Nell, look at
him dmm as .
the guy in
Ehrlichman. I will .
President. . . I already mentioned this to somebody ,
but put him dO\vn for a promotion because
that guy ought to go to the, eilsy I he's iJ.
future Senator , or a future , uh --
Ehrlichman. we have, of course, a recruiting, a re-
cruiting problem for Justice, in any event , if
John leaves.
President . I \vant that man I I \'lant that man for something.
And the man in your state also .
Ehrlichman. Well , Gordon is a possibility , although he has
l ocal ambitions , I think. Uh,
President. Interested in running for governor?
Ehrlichman . Yeah . Yeah, I don't think he can make it but
he ' s got those ambitions.
President. Yeah. Nell , on Hoover , '''hen you corne down
to it, the problem of going through that con-
firmation by, before , I just think is going.
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President . to be insurmountable.
Ehrlichman . It ' d be a bitch.
President . But I think what he could do , I really think alot,
it makes a lot of sense , he says I ' m resigning
at the end of this year -- this is my last
year and I ' ve, uh , talked to the President and ,
submit ,
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President .
19
1 wanta , because of the Bureau, I t'1ill not have
the Bureau become an issue in the campaign ,
I 've noted it, and I, and I , I think Hhat I
will do is just call him in and say "Edgar , I
think you ought to resign and, and , January 1st ,
1973."
Ehrlichman . That gives him a three month transition with a
new man betHeen the election
President. That's right .
Ehrlichman. . and the , and his retirement, , .. hieh ,-!ill
President .
be highly desirable.
Well , it will be longer than that, you see , the
Senate '-lOn ' t confirm
Ehrlichman. 1'Iel1 , that ' s true .
President . till, uh, February ,
Ehrlichman . Yep .
President . so he ' s got a long.
Ehrlichman. He could say I'm kind, I, a-- Effective on con-
firmation of my successor on or after the first
of January .
President . That ' s right. On or after the inaugUration.
Ehrlichman . Yeah .
President . Okay . I think it \V'ould be a, has a hell of a lot
to recommend it . Now everybody that , eager
beavers that want to clean up the Bureau or
the rest of it, we ' ll wait for that , but you ' re
not gonna clean up Ii'uch anyway this year . You
know, anpther thing about this Bureau, do you
realize, it 'll be one hell of a plum.
Ehrlichman. Yeah .
President.
Do you knot-' , not one of those people ' s on
Civil Service .
Ehrlichman . Oh , I know it , I know it.
President. I mean, Edgar makes this point , he says it
nakes it look (unintelligible) for the Bureau.
'Cause everybody ' s , I r.:ean
the biggest number of .. f7t:-1
20
Ehrlichman. Sure .
President. these are Presidential appointments
Ehrlichman . Sure.
President. apFarently, aren't they.
Ehrlichman. Well, they're dir--, they're appointed by the
Director as a practical matter, old Ronney and,
uh, the nill have <l lot to do ~ 1 i t h the appoint-
ment of these guys.
President . But just think of that
Ehrlichman. Yeah .
President . they \.;on ' t have to clear civil Service
Ehrlichman. That ' s right.
President. And incidentally, I am, I am continuing that
issue.
Ehrlichman . Yeah, yep , yep. It has . .
President. Anything come out of that?
Ehrlichman . it has given
President. or
Ehrlichman . that discipline that this fellow talks
about, uh , that internal discipline that, that
has been so important to the success of that
thing . Uh , well , lemme, lemme think about it
and I ' ll try and make a list of the negatives ,
if there are any and drop you a note on it .
President . There are negatives, just don ' t drop me a note
Ehrlichman. All right.
President . . He'll talk about it.
Ehrlichman . All right
President. We ' ll talk about this and then, we'll talk
about this with you, l".oore, and we'll have ,
uh, and l1itchell, and , uh, no more. Just
those.
Ehrlichman. Yeah.
President . And then maybe we'll move the damn thing.
Ehrlichman. All righty.
President . It ' d be great if he \>lould do it. But what
the hell \"ould he do, vlhat the hell, what
can he say to that though? If he's a lame
duck.
Ehrlichrnan. Ah, that it would impair his, impair his use-
fulness is the one, is the one thing that occurs
to me. And it vlould be hard for him to main-
tain internal discipline if eyerybody knew
he \'ias leaving and so on and so forth bu t
hell , everybody knows he's leaving now, you
know, it's just a question of time. And they
all, they all no,,, are on one side or another
of either contributing to or siol-ting down
his departure. And there's a , there's an internal
war going on there .
President. Getting back to the tax thing .
G - / 7 6 ~ _
". J-j -"e<tfS"'"
C/J}.ly
E-I
------
---- -----'
--- - ----------'--
DnAF'f
SECRET
TAANSCRIPT OF A RECOR!)HIG OF A 1-1EETING
BETh'"EEN THE PRESIDENT AND JOHN DEAN ON
FEBRUtLQY 27 , 1973, FROM 3 : 55 TO 4 : 20 P . M.
S E C R E T ~
-
TRAllSCHIP'l' OF A OT-' .f!. !·::::::'J'TI1G
BET:,:::::::I Ti:E PR:SID;:;:'l' Aim JC:::: D!·:,'.!! o:!
FF.3!WAH!' 27, 1:,5 'PO 11:/lO !'.i·: .
PRESlDE::;T:
DEAl! :
PRESIDE::'l':
DEAl!:

DEAN:

DEAl! :
PRESID3NT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEtIT:
DEAN:
. afternoon, John, hOi·; are you?
Pretty good.'
I. uh, discarded (unintel!1r,3ble)
\·,on't interrupt ut; l.;h,
uh, did you yOUl" talk ifith
yet?
1 just had a good talk I·,ith him .
Yeah, fine. Have you got hil:1, uh,
properl;;, the uh--
I think, I think he 1s.
(Unintell igible) properly--ah, has he talke1
yet to Bater?
No, he hasn't, he, Ull, he called Sap! E:-·::!.n
and offered to cone visit I·:lt j) both r:.e and
Baker . And, uh, that \"l as done last ;·;eek .
Uh, huh .
But he thouy,ht that timing t·:ould be bar'; to
call Baker prior to the jo!nt I'leetinf; . So
he says after I have that Joint
I ' ll start l-IorkinF; my relationship
Baker.
Well , Baker left 1'lith me that he \01a5
going to, going to set up n joint mee:!ng
\olell, any:':ay (unintelligible) . 1 see . So
Kleindiennt has talked to, uh, uh , he
has talked to Er'/ln end Ervin said- -
(unintelligible) .
Ervin has left it d?l"!p.;llnr; cnd said, "I'll
be back ::n toucr. \:lth you." Uh, I tM.nk
'1'1hat, Hr.at disturbs ne a little bit abGut
Bal(er 1';a:; his move to put his OHn man :!.n as
r:linority counsel, so quicl,;l.v, 1-1itholtt ?:'1y
cons!.lltation as he had pr-o::ti:;ed
And I ' n told this r.:.!n ma:" he a db.:ast.c:'
himself, the mino:"ity couns>:!l .
.
'.- b , .. I .
f-.....J!,-t\l
l
PEBHUfl.H'! '1"1, rna:: 1:55 '1'0 11::>0 P.:-, . 2
rnESIDEI!T:
DEA!l:
PRESIDEllT :
DEAll :
PRESIDEI!T :
DEAN :

DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDF.N'l' :
He is? \.'hat do ;'I'ou ;':pa:1 is he--?
Hell ',1(>]) I c<!n ' t v.noc\.r; he ' s
30, he's 30 yea .... :; of <'Ge, he dot:f"n't 1mcY,"!
a thing about
Yeah .
So VIC' 11 have to--
Baker, B",ker says that 11£' the blo'J.!1".e
on t!1e \"t:ite ECUS0 . lie :":?y!.; , ',::-ntch:,:.,acallits
hi s name, KOl'olof':OS cal1c<i h1r: ,,:-lIj :';'.lgges:.(,u
sOr.1ebody else, ti";<:t 1'.'Elt> Q. (::l'eat !:list.2.ke .
Course I didn ' t ):nO\'1 anyth'_ng that ..
Apparently , .,
Hell Baker is quite open his
felici ty I \-mr.t to cauns",l \·:lth :-'OU all , ar:ci
I don't \':ant to :;:O'IC I 'vo told you
I I m going to do , and the:-, he die j l'.S '; the
.t' ''''V'''l·:''" ' 3v l;" ,.,..l'lv ...... . 0'-,(:, :;;,at : .. :.
l'I"anted a r.eetir.g uith you, sccorldly :
that. uh, he sUGGested KJ.cindienst as a
condui t , ..
That1s correct .
... and there is hope, I think that. uh, he
'try to keep an eye on this thin;:: and not let
i t get into a total UD there ,
Who? Baker .
Baker. Baker m16ht .
\oI ell the.t ' s he ind1cated, he indicated bu t
of course . of COL:rse \"lit;, t;,e ree;ard to
uh, situatjon. hi" POSition thou,rr,h. [tnd liith
rep;ard to Kle iorllcnst I z pozition. I . uh, I shoo)"
Kleindienst up bit but (unintc1l1tible) rc<"!ll,V
i s the , is the feJlmi ",'ho ' !3 [':oir.r:: t.o ret
most out of th:l$ (unintcllh-;lbJe) i::; l.JitchcJl.
Said other!> are (,:onna f;et hurt too, but
i s, ah , the real problem 1::; \-:hether 0:' not
rUtchell Nill--ull, get h1::'1 on perjur'Y ,
,'--" , ..... r-- .. t ' •.
I • I' I
"-.J 1_\...11 \ ... _ t
,
FEDr.U/dlY ?7 .. ]9'(1, FROi'-! "i:'jlj '';''0 11:20 P.!:.
3
'",,-
:

PRESIDEr:T:
DEAN:
PRESIDEnT:
DEP.N:
PRESIDE}!'!':
DEAN:
PRESIDEN'i':
DEAN:
PRESIDEnT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT :
DEA/J :
Hum.
I said nOl" look, ah, pc .. j: .... 5 ":U'Y dnrr.:1.
hard t11ir.r, to prove too. Bt:.t,
uh, if you, uh keep froe
paPPin ' off. I sale, \·:cll, I . I, ! tnH:cd
(unintel ligible) d:td Y<J. ever tali: to l·;itc:-.ell
about this. Never has ..
No .
Poe says he has !"lever tnlked to him. Did :,'':;'.!
f>O into the Ncxican part 0." it i-:ith
or did you get ....
Hell, I ...
.. . into any substance at all?
,
I've r've ali-lays, b:-aced Klcindier:::.';
1n the past acout, yO\l kno\'/, pO,tent:!.al
Impllcat:!.o!1S of this ;'.'!"lel",
the \·:iH:!.:.. Lh!::." '0.3 .
Office i"laS dOi!'lg . . .
That's right .
• .. ...,hat the trial meant, •.
That ' s right.
· . . I think this could co::;e to haunt . •.
That's right.
If it gets out of hand, I don't want to get
into a lot of specifics.
Yeah.
at this last r.eeting.. I just sat "Iith hi:::
and said Dick, I said , 111 don't think r ot:.-;:-:.t
to brief you on everylhinJ; r 1:::0"'1. I don' =
think ...
That's
• .. that's the :':<:!.y to proceed . But if I see
you go:!.nc.; dO\-1:"l the \-:rong tI':lck, I ' m
to have to tell you Hhy . "
.. , .-
o t:: __ t<:::.. l
,
FEDRUf,l"(Y ?:7, 19'/3. 3 : 55 '?O 11:20 p.n.
PRESIDI::ll'l' :
DEAN :
PRESIDi.::il'f:
DEAN:

DEAN :
PRES IDSi 1'1':
DE!,N :
Urn hur:'\. Good, sood . Hhut clld he ,:ay?
He said. "I agree, tbc \·:ay it
stand . "
On the Executive Pl'ivilei:e 0:1(;, ! ·,::..th,
uh . talJ:ed to Johr. Ehclichr::'tn a litl;lc decic.:::d
that the lr!.st ,·:hi 1":1:. , uh , sh,'·.::::' be
modified :'>0 th.C!.t \"ih:!t I dr;h: :-.::::e to
say if I ' .. :ere es:<:ed a prC::f;
indicate ,·:hat it. but in, 1n n<.:t she:::, ·..:h,
r at he!' than s.Ll"1ply . flatly l>f,;,: tnf!i, I thf'.t
I-Ih at \·:e should ":'2.:.1 "'.s uh, th"t uh, th?.'';
the uh, that r.:e;:be:,s of the Prcsid'::.'nt I I
Hill not appear be£'ore a fO:::-r:'.ul sc:;s:l.c:' =:' the
Cor.:::1ission, co!:!:c!it';r:es . HOH?Vel',
appropriate th<:.t uP. , ir.!'c:·-.<!l
di:;cusz10:1s. or so fortn, can be to
obtain infor:natj.on and so forth and zo ::-:--
appropriate, I \-;ant, I tell you YC'.: ' ::'e.
",hat I,·e I re up l'ir;ht h(:r'c ' :3, u:-.,
Kleindiel"!st, Kleindic:1st has indicet':!d :::>
I don:,; b-:.o:·! 1:e {iid to ,VOU, ti"!=.: .::1,
he felt that ba-.::::-:: - up position he::'€.' be
an executive se:;sio:-: a!' the I
said, 1l':,'e1l. tl'.C!t ' 3 a hell of e. diff:!.c',,:: ';hing
the, for the :"',cn." I said , III think
position sholJld be o!'e of e, th:lt our ;:::-s!-;.io:1
should be one of u, a , a solution. 'fh",: you
can ' t--"'!'i t t en interl'oc:;atorie!l (\;n!nte IJ.::
",hi ch is unlikely. of the t' .. ,O uh,
. the. the rankine; eo::-.::'Iittee nerr:to<:rs <lnd :::c
couns el, qucstioninr; any r;.embel' of the ·.:hi'::"
House staff. you J(Oo'·.', unde!' pz'ope:::-, yo:.:.
restrictions ., .
Urn hum.
... and so forth and so on . I put that ';0 !3aker
as \'Iel1 uh . (uilintellif;ib'(') said =:::. ::er,
Baker probn.'.>ly) uh, prob<1bly 1I".\l1t:: to b': t,
the sane rcesof'. t.i1;!.l El'vin doc::, bccaus= (':-
publictty and 50 fo:-l!l, \·:;!.nts t;o haul d:::':::: the
Hhite House staff and ...
Urn.
... put them in the r;lare of those lights,
'l'rue .
-0;==:' __ _
')7. 1971, T"RO;·j 3 : 55 'I'O !1:20 P.ll.
5
pnESIDE!lT:

PRESIDS!I?:
DEAN :
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAU:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN :
Uh, thD.t He ca!'l.().ot; have . That HP canna'; h'_'!e.
On the other har,d , ' .. :e cO-nno'.. have;> ston<::L'."..11 ,
uh) so l"ha t ! t t '\:e' rc !:ot :!et 1. :!.:,,;
them. And so I ',;e've r;ot to be .in
position to , did ya d:!."cu:.;s this ',;.ith
as to ld1at the poslt:lon \':ould be on that point?
That, I think, ls the
Kleindienst has gotta stane Cod firr:!. on.
I did, I talked to Die]: about th1!t . I seid
that , uh , 11018, there's a state::',',mt
I don't knON the tl::ling on it . II
Yeah.
The Dcpart;:-,ent Hill issue . I said t,hat, it ' s
for tunate the co::t.e:·:t it ' s cO!!linr,; out in, be-cause
Clark Eollenhoff solicited the statement in a
pres s inquiry th3. t ' s comins out: in
context and not relatec tc l:atcrgate per 5C.
And so that'll be out soon and
\-.'hat the outer perir::etcrs
the.t \'1111 define
It also gl'/cs--
Have Kleindienst say t!1a t nobody fro:r. the Hhite
House stnff Hill testl':y before a cO::'Imittee.
That's right .
Of course , that doesn't help much at all .
Well, under normal if they ' re- -
.. . if they Here nor;::a1.
That's the, there ' s little, uh, slide in there .
And Hhat, in a practic:;!.l matter I tol d ' ela
Hould probably happe:'!, \·;ould be much like the
Flanigp..n si tuatio:1 ";he:-c th(!rc I s an exchan;;:;c and
the, the issues become l1a1'1'o':[ as to the
information that 's soq;ht .
,
FEBRUJ\RY 2:/ , 1973. 3:55 TO 6
PRESIDEi:'r:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDiWT :
DEAH:
PRESID:::;;T:
DEAN:
PRESIDEI!T:
DEAN:
PRESIDEN'l' :
DEAH:
rRESIDENT:
DEAtI:
Hell, you Horlwd "r1th, uh, if :!ou'cl talked to
Joh:1 Ehrlichr.t.l1 , you '.:orkcd o.t. r-cvil;ln
b

last para!;rap!-i .
He' ve done that .
Oh J you I ve alrcl'.d::,' ',:o!'l,ed \"11 th hi!':). on that.
Urn hum.
And, uh, I'l ell, C:'.ftc:" ! see uh , this
Cardinal iUdi (phonetic) take tc about, '
I think five , our:::ht to r:;et r'::'c. of hi::! in
about, all, fifteen 0::' tHer.t;1 r.i:mt..cs. 'iou
might bri:1g it and , uh , eot it
Hrltten alre-ad:,.-?
Ye s , sir.
Then let a look
Uh huh.
0'·
cv it abain .
And "Ie ' ll approye the statement , I don't '::a!'!t
to put it out ri;;ht iJecuasE: I. I . jus t
depends (unlntellig:!.b!!C) ! decide to do on the,
do on the, the p::--ess ';;hlnr. .
It'd probably be ee.sler not to have those
questions in your p:oess conference per se .
I, I, \'/Ould prefer, that ' s \':ha t I \mnt to co, is
to have this stater.:ent after the press
conference , to say , if they ask cnything
it, that " I ' ve cO'le:oed t hat in a statenent tha'.;
wi ll be issued to:::to:or01': on Executive rri'lllcf:e .
It's very COTnpllcfltcd ';;h=.'.:'s
"' hat I he.d in 11jnd . I ' d ratl:er not be questioned en
the statenent.
Hollenhoff hlr.1self debate y ou right there
on the subject.
Right . So I'll se.y I'r.1 coverint,--
And I did tall. to J·:ollenhoff yesterday at, uh , •
request .


7
FEBfiUARY ?7> J 973 , FH::>:" 3: 55 'fQ !i: 20
" ..
J . !' •
:
DEll.ll:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEnT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT :
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEIlT:
OEM!:

DEAf·I :
. .. (unlntE:llir;lblc) '"ant to look i:1
?ell hin ! \:2.nt to look ill the C<!:31'0 :',1)6 I ::::!.:l
r!.n cxt(::!1dec! diGct::;::': .lon on
Executive !'t'iviler_'" qucst:!.Oll . :-.':
differs so:::e\-}hat 1'1'0:"'1 ,"c ' re cC::.l.n;; 0';';,
but he ar::-ees th2.t cc:"talnl:! the P!'e::lrlent ::2.:;
the leeal authority to do tl:z.t and I,r:
also that it's , uh , it ' s--
1n his case. I mean \"l as 11t·
about '!
Hell, he says , he that e.ll I-:hl!;e Ec'_s-:
staff should be reE-ely to run up to U;(: ELl: and
testi1;'.Y and he asked . ..
(Unin telligible) .
... as to \'lhat they ' re dolor; and i_t's n rar?
!!:-:c':?ptiC"!'! ..... " "1."",..1--1"'" t-h.,.
privilege . I seid, uClarl'::, tha-:;'lJ tc
the other I:ay 'i'hc s!:;e::.ff c'.!!")',; oD£:::'1:te
if they ' re Going to be querled 0:'1 b::':;
of cOr:1!":"! ur.ication tl:f:y had \".'i Prc.-s1de:::': . 11
That's right .
Hansfield, hinself, Hr. PrC'!Jldent, h<!.s rccc'"::'1ized
that bet:·;een :/OU attd
are protected . I!e said this in a policy s'::ate-
ment before they issu':?d un
on, uh, having confirr.able indivj(iuals
they ' d testify before they are
(Pause )
Hell., •
I ' m--
... as for confir::mble nre cor. cr;!'n,::d ,
they're all available for te3tin:ony thoug!-"! .
That ' s righ'; . It ' s no pl'oblc!"1 there .
It t S no problem thCI'C .
_ .... ,
PEDnUMlY 'n. 19T=J, Pilai·: 1 : 5') TO 1;:20 p.n, 6

DEAI'1:
PRESIDEtlT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAlt:
They, of course, \'/i11, uh, thl:Y, they, they, !
guess, ".'C, VI(! HOUJd. no',; :'!0t':':'J.:.ll.'{
Executive PrivileGe fo:- Cabinet o1'f1cer" ,,·:oule.
\ore?
Uh, no !'lir. only if ;1n , say the ra!"e
instances I'Ihcre \':e already , d'icre
going for info:::':7!rtt!.on l'Ihich shoa1d be
Investigatlvq- file;::., uh, natC':,1_.:>.l
say, aid 0:' \·:he;) HI;! did it
1n the 1r!st--IRS file::; . Those arc the
1n wh1ch He ' ve done it .
Yeah.
And they're quite, traditiop.al and, end
should be expected by the Congress ,·:hen tr.ey (';0
after like that ,
I think, r t hink ' ·.'en t over to I
said just to sho\"1 :'OU ho':l the tu'('n3 here,
\\That He '·;ent through 1n "tne -.lne:::'e>
we \o;erc , invest1F,l::.tinb, r.ot, uh, by
a political , '\'.that o!"',e political
against ar.other, bet a charce of
against the United States c!' \·:as
a hell of a lot r.1or<! seriou;; . And in th:::.t cC!se,
the Department of LTUSticc , the \ .. Th1tc l! ouse , tbe
FBI totally stone':!alle<': the cor..mittee . ?he FBI
"lOuld not furnish any inforrlc::.tion and here the
FBI had a chance to furnish infornation to this
c ommittee .
Yes.
That's according to Gray, right ?
Right ..
All r1p;ht. The De:;n!.rtr.,ent of Jdstice refused
to give u::; any infOr'i:'i?tion at all and o!' cour:;c
the \-lh1te House used E::-::ecutive Privilcr:e and
the press 'v.'a5 all on their side . You sec that
'vI as. ,.
That ' s
FEunUJ\!1!' 27 , )973, FRO;: 3:55 70 Il:20 .) .:
• PRF:SIDSl!T :
DEA?! :
PRESIDENT:
:
PRESIDENT:
DEAI.J:
PRESIDENT:
.
....... " ...
PRESIDEtlT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT :
DEAN:
PIlESIDENT:
DEAN :
l'HESIDEJ!T:
nEAN :
. . . t!-:at u, th;.!t':.;, S'.l:'e it ' z .,:ho:;;e 1<.
.beinG G0:-ed . !:c;.-: ht're :.·ou F.ot
cspio:1ng:3! a crrrtniza'.:.::'o:,
.and, uh, S? no\"" (u:1i!1tel1":Cib!e).
\-lell, you kno .... · r I \'e been ...
(Uni r.telligible) .
. •• and in , in, uhl doing Gome checlcing.
I told Dlcl{ a (u!11ntel:!.:1.Gible) . 'rilat ' s '·;ha'..:
our Dcmoc:-atlc frie!"!cs did I"Ihen \'iC I:ere tr.':'::':-.;
to Get
Lyndon Jo!":!nson, uh , \·.'as !1robabl:y the, uh,
grea'.;est abuser of the 7'3!, I'!:"! told by
somc of the old hands c':e:=:- there .
He used it for cverythi::;s: .
_______ 1
.. --.
But didn ' t he usc it the press?
He ...
That 1 S ah- -
. •. used it the pre:';G, he uGed it
against his o·.m party, uh, back in ' 64 t:-_e
\o! alter Jenkins thing uh, he haC. hit.!1.
officials of the Fill out tr;vinp; to
a doctor to say that th:'s had a brain
tumor , uh , Halter Jenkins, he also,
then, turned his , the FSI loose on the
staff, un , this sort of thing is starting to
seep. , .
Uh, llho knoHs?
, .. out no' . ."
(
Is it getting out ?
Uh, r ' m sorr-y.

'.




' . ...,..' ,.
!:'EDRUl\RY 27, 1973, FRQl>.1 3:55 '1'0 4 : 20 P . M.
10
l'RESIDENT:
DEAN:
PnESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
OE.i\N :
PRESIDENT :
DEAN:
PRESIDEI'.'T:
DEAN :
PRESIDEN'! :
DEAN:
: 36514
But you , of course, know the incident of his, uh,
(unintelligible) the, the famous incicent of the
bugging of our plane . . •
'rhat 's right.
which, uh, maybe- - , they really is true . And
you know the instances that they talk about, about
the , uh, about our bugging , the FBI stuff , believe
me, r know exactly what those Here
Urn hum. Now they ' re so- -
And then , of cour se, the other things involved
out of the NSC, where we , they bugged Haig, Lake ,
or Halperin, I mean . But that \"<15 all.
That ' s r ight.
We were as limited as hell, I mean Hoover, good
God , we could have used him forever. ne ' s , he's - -
but Johnson had jURt apparently , just used them all
the time for this sort of thing .
That ' s what
this - -
I' m lea:;:ning. ThcLe ' s more and more of
y
r
,
,
,
Nho's , who,' s ,
this stuff on
who from the FBI is
us?
I
trying to put nut l
( \
God , I thought, I wish I knew, l"!r . president , ... u
7
h-.----- !

You don't believe it's a --
I ' ve heard therc're , there ' re several names that are
bantered ilround. I , I tried for exampl e , to track thf!

You don't think it ' s Sullivan?
N, no, I , I confronted Sul livan , us a matter of fact,
right after this, I said, "Bill , " I said , uh , I
!
,
Docld: 31443854
-
£EOHUARY 27, 1973, FROH 3:55 '1'0 4:20 P.I1 .
11
PRESIDENT:
DEAN :
PflESIDENT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT :
DEAN:

PHESIOENT :
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRRSIDENT:
DEAN :
PRESIDEN'!' :
:
PRESIDENT :
. OEMl:
I'J!?:SIDf.:NT:
,36514
called him into my office, I said, "I want to tell
you Time Nagazi ne said they hllve . " Ilis rC<lC-
ticn was not that of a man who bas leaked something .
Uh- -
Yeah .
And then he helped.
(Unintelligible)
He told me, he said, "If thi r; ever comes down to
the very zhort !:;trokes," he said , "As far as I'r;'t
concerned this was !{oover .and SuI1i van . No one else .
And I ' m ready to stanc forH8rd and take it at t hat ."
I said, "Hell, I don ' t think it 1 5 ever gains to be
that because , uh--
Well, what, why would it be Hoover and Sul livan, did
Hoover order to do it?
Hoover ordered him to do it.
In order to ah--
They did t his -- so he could say I could cite e::arnples
chapter and verse of Hoover telling me to do thinss
like this.
Now Sullivan knows that their,
limited -- it was limited .
That's right.
That ' s right .
it was
(
terriblyy---------- _____ _
And t hat I must say, I think I>le die request though ,
did we sily find out the leaks, and so Boover goes
and , uh, bugs people .
Nell, I, I t hink ..
That ' s the to do it .
( ..... -
. . . the '>lay it' 5 postured now, uh , He can
it, ah, Gray CiJn go up there in his confirlr.atio;'l
hearings and he ' s not gonna have to both'E:r I:ith
because they'd him in the article of bain9 .
s i tting on the top of the bu'Js .
Yeo'l.h . .. ,
DocId,31443854

c""'.'-----
PEDRUf.RY 27 .1973. FrO!·1 3:55 70 1':20 P.I·:.
12
DI::IIIJ:
PRESIDEWi':
DEAll:
PRESIDD!T:
DEAlT :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEHT:
DEAN:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAH:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDElJT:
DEAIl:


.. . it NZ,Z there o!1cc can ..... ill, \·;hlc h is not.
factual.
there \'leren ' t any .
There t·,ere none there ';;'hen he cam!? in.
Hell, three years ego thet this happened ...
That's right .
.. . and hasn't been a God (!e;-;lncd
since:
'fhet's correct .
Right.
That's correct.
Another thing vau car. say. too . John • .is
the fact that all this had to do Hith the '·:ar ...
I know.
•.• and 1;0''-/ the ":ar is over.
NO"l-;--
0 .
NO\"1 Johnson, on the other hnnd, '-lent bue;ging
his political. opponents, and every son-or-a, .
everything you can imagine. He r ve beer., t:lat' s
the problem, 1-1e ' re gettinc a real bum r<!.:p, aren ' t
we?
He ccrt--. "Ie are getting a terrible ra9, ah--
You stop to think' of, H.e got r :ld , we Got r:id
of the At'my bugs, i.:C get, you knot·,. that Ari:!Y all,
espionage intelllf,ence business,
He got , you that?
That':'i rlr.ht .
Uh, 1·;e· ve 11m1 ted '...he FBr to national
securi ty bur,s. to '/f!ry. very certc.in fc\·: .
probably too fc'.·"
\-le ' re , I-Ic ' rc no'.':
l'r,J;:S1D£NT:
pnESIDENT :
DEAN:
PRESIDENT :
DI::Z\N:
PRESIDENT :

PRESIDENT:
DEl\N :
i'RESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
But somebody I s gonna get .. shocJ:; one dny, and they' 11
wonder didn 't bug 'em, huh?
'fhat I S right. \\'e are get ting a bad rap.
tolell, for example
The fact is --
. as you lmow, as yOll know, Hoover did bug
Hartin, Hartin Luther King_
That ' s right, I was of that a1:>o .
Well, Christ yes, Hoover u5ed to tell us about what
his, what a , a morally depraved sone-of- a-bitch he
was -- And Johnson probably ordered him to do it ,
now let ' s face it.
Urn hum.
So, ah, I don ' t, well you can't blame Hoover. I'm sure
he didn ' t do it unless, ah, Johnson asked him to ,
but Johnson was that kind of a IRan, he used the FBI
as his own private patrol . but God , we've been as
careful , I've, I've talked to Hoover any nwnber of times
but we ' ve never ordered anything like that . But he'll
come in with his little things .
Johnson, ah ...
Huh?
Johnson, used the FBI to cover the , ah, New
Jersey convention before he dropped out , officially,
he had all the delegates --
He did?
That ' s right, which is kind of fantastic.
Sullivan knows this?
NW#: 36514
. _ ", _-0 .,.
Doc l d: ·;
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2q: 19"/3 , f'HOi·: 3:55?O 1: : 20 P.:!;,
DEAlI:
PRESIDE!i'r:
DEAN:

DEAI{:
:
DEAN :
PRESID::;:T:
DEAN:
PRESIDi::ilT:
DEAN :

DEAN:
PRESIDEWi' :

PflESID:::;-.!T:
DEIIU:
PRESIDEil'.:' :
Um hum, Sullivan is a
the r:1.orc I, you zort of f',cncrall:, ch? t
\'iith hir:l about these problems, t.he more it .
. comes out he ' s the :.12.r. that can also docu::.ent--
\'!hy did Hoover have a fh:ht. Hi hin? It 1 S :i
hell of a mistake fo::, lioover to do that.
Sulliv.?n knoi'ls too mucb .
That's right, ah .
Hhy didn ! t Sull! v a;: squat'ik?
I think Sullivan probably is loyal to the ...
... institution--
... the lnst1 tlltion and doesn ' t \':ant--
SOr.leoody over tr.erc is not, can he help you
find out. \'Iho the !"lell is not? Isn ' t it a
possibility ...
He advised--
.. . the guy that--Ti!:-:e
don I t think it I s hi,;;?
If:ag:!zinc I S la;'/yer , :" OU
He speculates, and, the speculation is gene::'ally,
i s it's either Sullivan hi!:ls e lf, r·;ark Felt •• · .. ho
1s--
I knol'l, the lai',yer says that.
'l'hat ' s right. /"h, and the other one is a felJ.O'.·!
Tom Bishop \'Iho is no;-; departed, \·:ho \'!as in
of their public informatlon and
Does he kno\'! these thi.nf':s, Hoover cHdn I t
tell people like that, about these things . ..
No.
... did he?
For example, the ' 68 thinz, I t:r,v-, \"as
to determine who might ):nOl': ahout that.
Yeah, ah ...
FERnut: .. !lI_"?lJ-197 3) F!W;·j 3 : 55 'l'O ll: 20 J> .. I·;. 15
DSAtI :
PRESICEljT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEI!T:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESID!::NT:
DBAN ,
PRES!DSNT:
DEAN:
:
DEIIN:

DY::J\N:
Hoover. apparent l;y ....
.nh, I c,ue::;3 .
" . Hoover apparently told Pat Coyne, Patri"ck
Coyne, \·:il0 used to be on the NSC staff ..
1 knot-i, I ImO\·" I believe , is. he still livinC?
l don ' t, I don't knm-r r.1an.
li e told Pat
He told Pat Coyne j Coyne told Rockefeller;
relayed this to Kissinger, this ,·:as
one channel that might have it 1n a public
domain. The ot!""!cr is \".... hen Sullivan took the
records, or all the documents in connection
\11th this, ah, out of his ofi"ice. and out of
thp hI<> :).1.:,:'.:> ins \"!"t!('l"'O"j the
Field Office to destroy all their records,
which they did . Ah, Hoover, incensed at this,
that he couldn't recons'.;ruct, that he didn ' t
h3.,ve the record:; and coulon ' t get them f1'o::1
SUllivan, tried to have the Hashi:1gton Pleld
O.ffice reconstruct the;::, \·;hlch the..:,' couldn ' t.
As a result. of that movement and flailing
Etl'ound by Hoovel' e lot of people in the agency
a\·:are of what had happened and it __ _
the grapevine .. ( ... ___ _
Oh, that's \·,hen it happened then) the night
Sullivan left , he took the records \"/lth him--
He took the r ecords \·,i th hlr:"1 ...
A!,d that' f? the only records there \"Iere?
. , .and that ' s the only records there are.
H(! did it out of , uh, I mean, pissed off at
Hoover .
NO, ah , he was doing it to .. .
P;'otect ....
••• protect, ah-- ., .........
t .. _ Ir= '
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FEBRUARY 1'.1
1
1 973J---.EHOi-l 3 : 55 TO Il : 20 P. r.; .
PRES!D:C:;!T:
DEAN:

DEAN:
PRESIDENT :
DEAIJ :
PRESIDEii'l' :
DEAU :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEH'!' :
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDEtlT:
DEAN :
PRESIDi::N'l':
. .. the Dureau .
No. he ",as doine it. to protect the \!hite
House and th(;! peo!)le over hE-re o
Oh . oh, but for Christ; HooVCl',
(unint elligible) .
I ::.·::en,

Hoover never got on the l'CCQrcs is
,-that happened . Sullivan hat. had
his, ah. his plssinb nate!':! :-:ith Heaver e.:-:i
took them '-:i th hi T:! at that. t:i::;e . ...
I see .
And then he turned t.hem over to Hardlan
ultimately .
_r
And--
That ' s hON ''Ie got the:n .
And then--
Hhere ' s Sullivan
Sullivan is back at Justice in the Drug
Intelli gence (unintelligible).
We owe J11m something:.
He do . He '-!ants to Co back to the Bure2:...: and
' -lork on, ah . domestic. ah--
\-Ihy i s it that Gray t '-:-ant hi l!'l?
I thinl{ Hark Felt has poisoned Gra:y on
th:l:; issue and I think once (; :'ay--
(
\-i cll, ,-:11 0 in the hell . so,':ebody is dotne :-: ::. l'l-:"
Pelt in. You Hha.t, do do ,You :':elic'.JL:
the Time J.!;;-tC.-:lzine lal-;ycr? Is ::-elt
l igiblc). 1s he c ;;J.pable of this sort of
.
FEBnU:\BY 27, 1913, FilOj·i 3 : :'5 'ro 1::20 P. ;·: .
DEAN:
PRESIDeNT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
PRESIDEnT:
PRESIDEnT:
DEAN:
PHESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAil :
Hell, let me tell you I'Ihere r; ":here else' I
heard that ah , Snndy SI:'!lth, ah , I bad
told, not, not the ll!I':YCI' bllt sor::cbody else
told Fel t \'laS so:.urcc ...
Yeah .
•.. and this came to Henry Petersen, ah, Henry
Petersen r s an old hand o·/er. there J as kr.OH J '
and, ah, bless soul, he ' s a valuable man
to us. Ah--
Yeah. \'lhat did he say?
Ah , he said that he 'Ilouldn't put it past Felt
but . ah, the other thing I "';as talking to
Kleindienst about this i· .. hen ! was over there , he
said if Felt is the sou!'ce ...
Yeah.
... and if \"e gets I'clt \"layout of jOint ,-:e
are in serious trouble.
1 Cause be knO\-'5 so much?
He knO\":s so much ,
What's he know?
): don ' t I d1dn
'
t ask for spec1fics 1"1ith.
ah, be said. one thing, he said he could knock,
Does he knON about Sullivan stuff?
(
Yes, he about that. I called Felt, asked
him what he kne\"l about it and he \"/as, for
example, very cool ',"!hen I, I said. l1'rhe"ce
l
S a
Time l-fagazine story runjllng. Mark. ah ,
in 168 ...
Yeah.
or, or 1n 169 and ''(0, ..
PBESlDimT: Yes.
,
,
FF:nnU:\R!' -;'1: 19'1 3. }'ROi·l :I: 55 '1'0 !:; 2 0 p. ;.; .
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18
:
PRESIDE:lJT:
DEAN:
PRESIO:::i{T:
DEAN :
PRESIO::l·1T:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PHESIDE:I'i' :
DEAt! :
and so on nnd so fo':'th. He satd, IIh, I saie
1'True or fal::.e?" said , " 'true ," I
" Hol'I do you kno\'; and I said, "l i ve n':!\'0!'
hefl.rd of that Ee: said , if ':ell
talk to f.}ill Sull,han, he'll tell yo'..! ell atcut
it .
1I
"!hen he did r.e. o f a f.cnc:·el, he
painted. a General picture about it. P,n , but
j ust cool as e abQl..lt it. /Ih-- r----
And \·!hat docs he sa] ?ime, ,
does he , 1s he gonr.=. stand up for the ct:!niC".'!.?
He says, "John, " r.e said, ah, I said IIFirs t
of all , I don 1 t. I ::l.O!1' t believe this
happen, " I was rrc'.;:ecting us, as far as .. .
Yeah. '
... doubting "That he ' had !;;dd . He said. " Hel:!.,
John , as far as ::i: 'n concerned. our, cur ;lhor::e call·
is totally off t:-:e :'ecord. \;e never had so
that ' s a good tc ,':utC:l, just right there.
In other \·/ords , can ' t blot..; the whistle
Felt , just like cen ' t blOl·, the 0 :1
t he son-of-a-bitch out: there, the ycon2.n, in
the Jack Anderso:l case , right?
That ' s right . but t!1ere 1..-ill becor.;e, ah, the!'e
i·lill coree a day .. ·:he;:'! Gray's cOr:Jfortab:!.y in
there , '·Then other things come past, that ah--
I,ike what?
I think that Gray can , at some point ":hen, l.f
t h is sort of thing once he gets
throuGh his confir::-.E.!.t1on , I don 't kno;·: · .. :hy he
couldn't. himself s?y "I. ' m gonoa take a lie
detector test at'l(i I'm ask ever.YboC:y :I.:. :"'I)'
immediate shop to take one ar.d then \·:e ' re r;o;,na
go out and ask sOllie of the other ar.;;ents to
them • ..
Just for leakage.
11 , • • as for becau:;(' this , th:l.s only
hurts, Ilh , thin ' .. :?101e institution ."
(Pause )
PRESIDE;:'!':
DEJI.H:

DEfI}1 :

:
DEAN:
PRESIDE!:'i' :
DEAN:
PRESnl::::iT:
DEAN:
pnESIOE:!;'f :
.
"
19
do you, nh, \':he::'e do you otC!nd on
ho\".' \'1111 \"Ie leave it on hea:":;,
.\'/ith re(:D.rd to t:r"Je, \'Ihn'.; ·let
me put it this '::ay. You t<lke the respc:1ot-
bility ror Kleindienst, I ' n: gonna
Ehrllchman Halder::an out of it--out of t-:;:!l:!.'--
any relationship l!ith Kleindienst. You
have it only, but you've bot Lo '·:D.tch h:!..!!I. <=.:.1
brace him--, on the ?rivilcge t!1iT".[; ,
that you, that you tell h:;'m .. :hat the line is . ..
I have, I have . . .
••. and Hhere he's to s ta:!'Q.
I have told him and I've s-, I said " It's .
gonna be im!)ortant."
Didn't he raise the idea of their the
Executive Session refusal?
No, he did not .
All right. Be sure he Y.:nOi-.'s \·,hat the back up
position is, \·Ih ich is (un:'ntclli glblc) . as I
underst and it , if \·, e .. ent in there under p:oove:r
ah. ah, restrictions, allO\-.'. uh, t\-to connit';!::e
members to come do,-:n. Is that \·ihat you l-;o!.lld do?
I think \·;e \"10-, ought, if I think '· .. e ought to
drali the line at i"lritten interroe,atories. I thir:i':
the position should be you Here holdi"f.;
nothing back, information '\'Tise .
'fhat would be SHorn .
'fha t ' s r.lght, tha t '1auld be SHorn , uh, you
can't be in a position of protect il1e any. any!)od:;
around here .
That's right .
The information has to be available .
go up there and ;.-.ake a circus Ot,t of
appearance of .. of peoplc--
Right.
-
"
But
the
to
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FC:imu .. \Ui' 27, 1973, FROi .. \ 3:55 TO 4 :20 P . '-! .
20
D:!: AN:
P.!·:ESIDENT:
pm:SIDENT:
DEAN :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDENT:
Pr:.ESIDENT:
DEAn :
PRESI DENT:
l'!.h --
Good, let me say about ah, Clbo'.1t Felt, it
sounds as if he knows, i t so\,mds a:. if he' s
Kind of watch it like a hawk , Hr. President ("'"=--=----
Yeah.
and I just got to \latch him, l'.h, he's too
close to Pat Gray right .
Yeah .
for our interests.
(
Pat Gray i s a little naive.
Yeah. i'lell I think it' 5--
And he never ever has anything '"/ronq, find out some
interesting facts , but, ah, nothing \"Ie ever used. I
mean we just were awful careful. Joe Kraft, of
course, should have been bugged. I "';ould think the
is, &h, practica lly an agent to the
conununists .
Well, ... ,hat you said about Bob and J ohn •. too, I think,
as before the election, I tried to only bother them or
consume any of their time when it was just absolutely
cssentiill .
Right.
And I think that's the way it ' s been.
That ' s right, that ' s right.
lie, ah
Unidentified: (Unintelligible) is here.
pm::S IDENT: Fine, fine.
, ,.._ .
. ' , .
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FEDnUf'.RY 27 I 197 3 , lo'Rr..:1 3: 55 trj I; : 20 P . i·; . 21
pm:SIDSN'f :
HALDEI1t.!-I :
PRESIDENT:
DEAN:
PRESIDeNT:
I buzzed th'ice , that means they. for f er:: to
corne in . (Unintelligible) buzz (unlntel:igl!:>le)
that meUl,!.) .
Appa"t'entJ y the pbo:.!"":cs aren I t \·,orking,
Ch fine , sure . sure, sure . have I em come
ric;ht in . night f;rlere
(UnintelHgible Hith noise)
\'1ell , sil' , I ' ll E!:"t that statcr::ent on
exccutiv(:
If you c(,uld, uh , if you could. uh, do YC·..lr
best to , 11h, i f you could. l:eep me post ed -::>!1
(unlntelJlr;ible) t:'1erything that \·.'ay you r:.eed
t o but p;u'ticularly \"iith r elation to Kleindienst .
Okay?

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