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I am soo Tired of the Endless Desktop Flame Wars Can we Please all Stop This?
Sun, 10/30/2011 - 12:32 — txwikinger




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Since the inception of Gnome, there seems to have been a never ending flame w ar about desktops in the FLOSS community. I am really getting tired of it, because it not only is boring, but also continuously diverts us from being productive. During a presentation about the Ubuntu Canada LoCo, and an ensuing unconference session at a conference this w eekend, valuable time that could have been used trying to discuss w ays how the Ubuntu LoCo can be more effective to promote Ubuntu, w as instead lost by arguments about Unity and its direction. The biggest asset of FLOSS is choices for the user. One of the essential aims of the FSF through the GPL is to grant the user rights that enable them to have choices. The right to modify softw are enables people to fork and to create different directions. The ensuing competition fosters an environment of innovation. This distinguishes us positively from Apple and Microsoft. I have been sitting on the sidelines about this topic for a long time. I remember the discussions about the original license of the Qt libraries (w hich w ere and are an integral part of the KDE desktop) that led to the commencement of the Gnome project - Interestingly, today some Gnome applications use Mono with its patent problems, while Qt is now licensed with FSF promoted GPL licenses. I also remember, and w as in the middle of the change of the KDE desktop from version 3.5 to 4, and the endless discussion at the time about the direction of the KDE desktop. Unfortunately, the same mistakes seem to be made again and again. And even w orse, the effect alw ays seem to be a panic in the community about the ensuing apocalypse. Please let's put things into perspective! We are engaged in a w orld of technology. Technology moves in a fast pace. Changes are inevitable, changes are good. Good technology aids people in democratic principles like self-determination and control of their ow n paths. I w ill alw ays argue the biggest success of FLOSS, Linux and Ubuntu is the fact that it enables people to have a choice, instead of being locked-in in a w orld of Microsoft, or Apple. This choice is realized by the fact that anybody w ho does not like Unity can easily choose a different desktop on Ubuntu. We have Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Lubuntu. Neither even install Unity. Even w hen Ubuntu Desktop is installed, it does not take any substantial w ork to install the Gnome3 shell. If there is a substantial community w ho w ants to keep Gnome2 alive, I am sure, this can be made possible too. I remember, KDE 3.5 being supported for some time after KDE4 originally came out. I really w ould like to see people to put their efforts into making the best of an already very good situation. Follow your preference and help more people to do the same. W indow and Apple do not grant their users these choices, w e have. There is no reason not to promote Ubuntu and its derivatives even if you do not like Unity, or like myself do not use it. Average:

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I agree with your main point
Mon, 10/31/2011 - 04:57 — Anonymous (not verified)

I agree w ith your main point that there is a time and place for rants, but your article misses the central point of w hy Unity annoys people. If you like kde, you can install Kubuntu w ithout the existence of Unity having any effect upon you. The same is true for people w ho like xfce; they have Xubuntu. But people w ho like Gnome have to install Unity - w e have no choice. We can install Gnome-Shell, but its not a full proper implementation and many of the shared packages have been modified in order to w ork w ith Unity in a manner w hich is inappropriate or in some cases incompatible w ith Gnome-shell. If w e dow nload the sources from Gnome and build it ourselves, Unity stops w orking and because of the w ay that Unity has been designed, if Unity fails so does the w hole installation. This is

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understandable, since the w hole installation has been built w ith Unity in mind, just as Kubuntu is built w ith the idea of kde in mind, but rather than expanding (as you argue), it curtails, freedom of choice. If there w ere a Gubuntu w hich supporters of Gnome could install w ithout the existence of Unity having any effect, w e w ould be in the same position as kde and xfce lovers and equally sanguine about Unity simply adding an even w ider range of choice for users. It may not be for us, but then nor is kde, but it is all good. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Imagine if Unity had taken over kde, so that there w as no Kubuntu, so that you could only access part of kde from behind an interface w hich w as foreign to the very philosophy of kde. Would you be arguing that it w as simply an increase in choice? I doubt it. Until Gnome users are given equal status w ith users of xfce, kde, and unity, there is alw ays going to be ranting, because the w ay that Unity has been introduced (not Unity itself) has undermined the w hole concept of a Linux distribution - ie. choice. How can w e genuinely promote a distro w hich denies choice to the largest single group of Linux users? How can w e make Ubuntu a promotable product, once more? These questions have to be answ ered before anything else. It follow s that these questions w ill alw ays be the topic of conversation at any meeting, w hatever its original purpose w as supposed to be. Until Canonical gets the message, that they need to make Unity a choice, along w ith Gnome-Shell, xfce, kde etc, and not an enforced replacement, any attempt at positive discussion of any topic w ill alw ays be side-tracked. reply 0 votes

Unity is divisive and

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 21:08 — Anonymous (not verified)

Unity is divisive and disruptive. They took a distro w ith momentum and have fragmented it. Much of the goodw ill built up over the years by ironing out nuisances common to other distros w ill now be scattered into the w ind as users find alternate distros w hich w ork out of the box w ithout shipping w ith annoying, dysfunctional art projects. I had alw ays been a GNOME user, but I decided to give KDE a shot. After an hour of configuring a test in VirtualBox I still couldn't get the desktop UI feeling right, at w hich point I decided to stop fighting an uphill battle w ith KDE. It isn't that Linux users can't perform adjustments and customizations. They clearly can. The point is that w hen there is so much w ork to do out of the box just to get to the baseline, a user's needs are probably best met by something else. Sure, I could jump to Gentoo and get everything exactly how I w ant, but that isn't w orth a day of effort. I'd rather start w ith something w hich is almost right on. W hile GNOME can be added on, there is a certain stability and reliability advantage to using the mainline DE for a given distro. Doing that tends to make things break less. Unity dumbed dow n the distro. They're pushing Ubuntu to casual users by emulating OSX and giving the DE a consumer appliancey feel. Projects fail w hen they try to be something they are not, w hich is w hat w ill happen here. Ubuntu is not OSX and it is not for the computer illiterate. It should not be changing course to compete for people w ho w on't use it. Ubuntu desktop w ill lose market share and take a lot of the steam out of further development. This isn't about the positioning of the w indow buttons, the default w allpaper, or any other purely stylistic change. W hat changed w as disruptive to the ecosystem at its core. Ubuntu had already been feeling the bloat. New installs took an hour or so to rip out frivolous packages w hich should have been optional. Gw ibber? Zeitgeist? libxyzidontneed? No thanks. Now that the core DE is crap the decision to move is easy. reply 0 votes

A half-hearted Tue, 11/01/2011 - 06:08 — blackbelt_jones (not verified) Defense of Unity
I don't see how Unity is disruptive. Gnome 3 w as the disruption. At least Unity restored the Desktop metaphor. reply 0 votes


Mon, 10/31/2011 - 04:57 — Martin Owens (not verified)

It's hard to say w hat Unity w ill be, I don't think it's even finished yet. The parts of the system w hich have caused me the biggest grief have been the Linux kernel and Compiz. Linux quality has been shoddy for desktops from 2.6.35 onw ards, of course w e could complain that Unity 3D uses compiz and therefor w e're stuck w ith an unstable and resource hungry stack; but fairs fair, it's hardly the only thing being offered to users, even on the baseline. Do you think your comment w ill make Canonical shift it's position? No of course not, your comment is divisive and you intend it to be. You intend to add to the poison hereabouts and hope to cause users to

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move to other distros to punish Canonical; either that or your venting w ithout reason and poisoning the community by mistake. reply 0 votes

Not the point of this blog post

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 22:19 — txwikinger

Again, this is not the point. There may be many reasons to be in disagreement w ith Unity, there may be as many to be for it. The point is that not every place and time w here Ubuntu is a topic is the right place for forcing the discussion to be about Unity. In fact, this is not the place to discuss pros or cons about Unity. reply 0 votes

Please export FULL posts in

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 21:01 — Anonymous (not verified)

Please export FULL posts in your RSS feed. reply 0 votes

Full posts in feeds

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 22:16 — txwikinger

Sorry, no intention to do this. This is my blog and therefore my rules. reply 0 votes

Like the OP, I'm curious -

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 10:21 — Scaine (not verified)

Like the OP, I'm curious - w hy not? Most part-posted RSS feeds are meant to encourage the user to visit the w ebsite for full content, and therefore hit more adverts. Your site doesnt' seem to have any adverts, so w hy post teasers via RSS? I'm actually less likely to hit your site, or post links to it, since I only get your content through Planet RSS, so less likely to cause exposure as a result. Not that I object, really. But I run a site and post full RSS and w onder if I've missed something here. reply 0 votes

Multiple reasons

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 11:10 — txwikinger

There are multiple reasons for this. Among them, the feeds are often re-published on other sites and I have no idea how many people read it. Furthermore, it is an issue of copyright and fair use. I have no problems w hen people re-publish the teaser, how ever the w hole article should only be re-published w ith my permission. reply 0 votes

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 12:20 — Anonymous (not verified) with an attitude like that,

w ith an attitude like that, you should w ork for Canonical. reply 0 votes

Tell them not me

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 11:07 — txwikinger

Maybe you should tell them that, not me reply 0 votes

Emacs is better than vim! No
Emacs is better than vim!

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 17:54 — Anonymous (not verified)

No seriously: You don't w ant desktop-flamew ars? Don't w rite posts like these but turn to something more productive. And don't w rite comments on posts like these... w hich I should stop doing as w ell reply 0 votes

Not the fast...

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 18:23 — txwikinger

This Unity w ar has gone on for more than 6 month now w ithout me w riting a blog post. The reason w hy I w rote it is that it has become so distractive that it is very difficult to try to do anything productive in the LoCo anymore, because every time someone diverts any discussion back to Unity. I have never used Unity, and probably w ill not in the near future. So, my time is certainly not very productive listening to rants about something I had no influence for, and w hich nobody in the Ubuntu Canada LoCo w ould be able to do anything about. Hopefully, this post can help to at least contain these discussions or rants to the places w here there is more possibility that some influence can be w ielded.

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0 votes

I am also tired of flame

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 16:49 — MK (not verified)

I am also tired of flame w ars, but, let's be reasonable, they'll probably never stop. Linux users are too egoistic and self centered to give up their petty little bickering. It's been a w hile since I last called myself a Linux user, not because I don't use it, but because I don't w ant to be in anyw ay associated w ith this mob of trolls. You bring up reasonable argument, but of cause, they don't w ork w ith Linux users, w ho's best practice is to rant, w hine and complain. Nothing you say or do w ill get them satisfied, no w onder that Gnome devs ignore them. That's the only w ay to deal w ith trolls. reply 0 votes

Let's be hopeful...

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 18:26 — txwikinger

... that these arguments at least w ork w ith most Linux users. There w ill alw ays be at least a small minority in any community (Linux users are no unique in this) that like to troll. How ever, I do not even call people being disappointed about certain decisions trolls. I rather w ould like to attempt to contain certain discussions to certain places w here they are more appropriate. reply 0 votes

Like where?

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 10:40 — Scaine (not verified)

The reason these discussion happen over and over is that your common-or-garden Ubuntu user probably doesn't know w here the best place to complain/object actually is. I'd suggest the ONLY appropriate place to raise an objection is launchpad, but given how easy it is for a new comer to mark such discussions as "w on't fix", I doubt that's as useful as developers make out. reply 0 votes

My experiences Sun, 10/30/2011 - 16:45 — Mark Fernandes (not verified) with different desktops and Linux distros
Thanks for the excellent points made in your blog post. Speaking for myself, I started off as a KDE user. I quickly moved to GNOME because despite installing KDE, I also used applications that required GNOME libraries, so I decided to bite the bullet and simply jump into a full GNOME desktop environment and replace all KDE applications w ith GNOME ones. I found I liked the sw itch and the changes betw een the individual applications betw een themselves did not bother me too much. I have not gone back to KDE since and I w as not even curious about how KDE evolved. I try to stay aw ay from distros that are based on KDE simply because I do not w ant to relearn everything. Before Unity: I tried (in the follow ing order over several years): Slackw are, OpenSuSE, Fedora, Gentoo, and finally Ubuntu. Each distribution, except Ubuntu, broke something critical in my daily w orkflow (w ireless netw orking, Flash, 3D graphics) each time a new release of that distro came out or the distro refused to support something that I w anted because the distro w anted to be ideologically pure from closed softw are taint. I got frustrated w ith each distribution until Ubuntu. In fact, prior to Unity, I no longer cared w hat other distributions did because Ubuntu gave me everything I needed and yet kept themselves fairly up-to-date. I also noticed another interesting feature: regular, mom and pop folk, w ithin the Ubuntu community kept hammering aw ay at sloppy review s w ritten by renow ned journalists (see dot.Rory post on 24 Hours w ith Ubuntu) w ho needlessly gave Ubuntu bad review s simply because that journalist w as used to a proprietary environment and unfairly compared something that w as essentially free (as in beer) w ith something that one w as forced to buy. After Unity: I have not upgraded from 10.04 (LTS) on one machine and I have moved to Linux Mint Debian Edition on the other. I take your point w ell, and I am in the process of moving to XFCE and perhaps another distro, maybe even re-looking at the other distros that I left behind in my past. One pattern you notice in my logic: after trying something and moving aw ay, I have not gone back to that distro or that desktop. I may be unique in this regard, although I doubt it. Although after listening to the logic outlined at the Ubuntu Canada LoCo presentation, and another presentation comparing GNOME3 and Unity at the same conference: FSOSS 2011, I have come to respect changes made to both desktops. I w as also amused, at the same FSOSS conference, to see how alike the tw o desktops are to each other. I may make the transition to XFCE after I upgrade from Ubuntu 10.04 LTS and maybe change the distro unless there is a compelling reason for me not to change w hen Ubuntu releases their next version of their LTS (Precise Pangolin in 12.04) On the point that you make about the freedom to choose alternatives, w ithin the FLOSS ecosystem, is bigger that the narrow minded arguments of scoring points over w hich interface is bigger and better: I agree w ith you that those discussions should end sometime. The trouble is change is hard, especially if the change is not explained w ell to the end user. One

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explanation given during those discussions, w hich I liked, w as this: w hy do you need a minimize icon and w hat do you minimize to w hen there is no panel to begin w ith? A few suggestions arose from the presentations I attended, w hich I describe here: Ubuntu should have one-click-links on its main page to help redirect users directly to the local user group w ebsite much like Amazon does right now (to help users redirect from Amazon.com to their local Amazon store). Provide one-click links to paid support for individuals and organizations. Make this easily visible. NOTE: I just checked, the links are there, but they are not easily visible. These should be easy to see buttons much like the "Get Ubuntu now " button on the Ubuntu homepage. reply 0 votes

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 16:14 — blackbelt_jones (not verified) What about the poor user's perspective?

>>Please let's put things into perspective! We are engaged in a w orld of technology. Technology moves in a fast pace. Changes are inevitable, changes are good. Does anyone bother to examine these assumptions anymore? Are there not exceptions? There must be limits to innovation, or w e'd all be eating our cornflakes w ith an electronic spoon. KDE4 may not have been the apokolypse, but it w as a lot of pain for a desktop that I still find to be less usable than KDE3, though I respect a lot of the w ork that w as done, I respect those w ho prefer it, and it w asn't all bad. Inevitably, making big changes to established Desktop GUIs that users depend on causes users a lot of pain, and I can't imagine w hy developers should be protected from that. reply 0 votes

It is not about the developer but innocent bystanders

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 18:32 — txwikinger

Too many people are in the crossfire w here there are no developers that have anything to do w ith it. The problem is that this topic dominates everything and not that there are limited places w here the discussion w ould be appropriate w hen held reasonably. reply 0 votes

The solution is simple

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 15:46 — Richard (not verified)

Just go back to KDE. They addressed people's concerns so there is no reason to duplicate effort. If everyone goes back to it, the deduplication of effort should yield some very nice results. reply 0 votes

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 15:38 — Stephen Smoogen (not verified) The wars go back beyond that.

The w ars go back beyond that. Before GNOME it w as Enlightenment vs tvtw m vs fvw m vs... before X it w as emacs vs vi. Human beings have built in needs to know w ho is w ith them and w ho is against them. If they don't have that they feel uncomfortable and w ill make up things to make "my people" better than "your people." Some people have a stronger need for this than others.. usually the most vocal ones. reply 0 votes


Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:50 — ali1234 (not verified)

The problem w ith this is that only the Unity desktop is tested by Canonical developers. The other desktops in Ubuntu are put together by volunteers and it really show s. I have spent the past six months looking for an alternative to Unity, and my conclusion is that the old Gnome 2 DX in Maverick w as superior to anything available in any current distro, even the ones that still ship Gnome 2 as their primary desktop. Building a good user experience is about more than just compiling the packages, and even though Unity has several show stopping bugs and design flaw s, it is still better than anything anyone else has done - w ith the exception of the aforementioned Maverick desktop. Therefore, the logical thing to do is to try to influence the direction of Unity. Also, the message about the community being able to influence things is one that Canonical pushes at every possible opportunity, so it should not come as a surprise w hen people try to put the message in to action. reply 0 votes

Not the point

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:58 — txwikinger

W ithout taking sides, this is not the issue. Canonical is a private corporation. Canonical is not the Ubuntu community. I use Kubuntu for a long time and have also contributed to it. I cannot follow the argument that Kubuntu is inferior to Unity because it is not tested by

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Canonical staff. This is rather an argument against community based softw are development (w hich most FLOSS is). There is nothing that stops a professional organization to test any other desktop on the Ubuntu platform. Making constructive criticism is one thing. Getting hung up on the mere existence of Unity is not productive. reply 0 votes

This is not an argument

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 15:52 — ali1234 (not verified)

This is not an argument against community development. Just because every community effort so far has utterly failed to deliver a product of similar quality to ubuntu-desktop does not mean it could not happen in the future. But that is entirely missing both the points I w anted to make w hich are firstly that as terrible as Unity is, it is still better than either Gnome 3 or KDE regardless of w hich distro you run. And secondly that even if you disagree, Gnome 3 and KDE w ork much better w hen run on Fedora or OpenSUSE respectively, because those distros are designed from the ground up to run them, w hile on Ubuntu they are both tacked on afterw ards, w ith the maintainers having to play catch-up w ith Canonical's changes to the core distro (like patching Qt and Gtk to support all that w eird Unity stuff.) And this is w here the choice comes in. If you think that, contrary to w hat Canonical says, attempting to fix Unity by getting involved w ith the community is a w aste of time, w hy are you still using Kubuntu w hen you could be using OpenSUSE? Perhaps you have other reasons for not sw itching. Perhaps the people w ho w ant to fix Unity rather than sw itch to something even w orse also have good reasons. reply 0 votes

Gnome uses heavily Mono

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:40 — Juanjo Marin (not verified)

I think is going to far to say that GNOME uses heavily Mono, in fact only few apps are w ritten in mono. And they usually have an alternative w ritten in another language like Banshee/Rhythmbox or Tomboy/Gnote. Moreover, mono is free softw are, all the concerns are related to patents. http://w w w .mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing reply 0 votes

Mono issues

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:50 — txwikinger

Well, I have changed this part. It w as not my intent to create a Mono discussion, but point to a change of perspectives. reply 0 votes

Never! reply 0 votes

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:24 — Marcus (not verified)

The wars will never stop?

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:46 — txwikinger

Well. Even if that is the case. Wouldn't it better? Friendly competition is good and helps everybody. The goal to destroy the other side or demean its users is not. reply 0 votes

I agree Sun, 10/30/2011 - 14:08 — Tachyon Feathertail (not verified) that that's immature
I agree that that's immature and unproductive, but I feel that saying "Can't w e all just get along?" is demeaning as w ell. Some people on the other side may be misbehaving, but they feel that w ay because they feel like things they depend on are being taken aw ay from them, both by Unity and by GNOME's simultaneous decision to pull the rug out from under its users. I'm in favor of change for the better, even change that abandons old w ays of doing things. But I think it's insulting to tell the people w ho are adversely affected by it that they have no reason to get upset. reply 0 votes

Not saying this at all

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 14:18 — txwikinger

I am not saying this at all. I am saying there are better w ays to deal w ith it. W hen Microsoft or Apple change the UI, users have no other option but to complain or to accept w hat is happening.

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In FLOSS there are lots of productive possibilities including baning together and forking if this is necessary. Nobody is stopped to start a community that forks Gnome before the changes of Gnome and Canonical that are so disruptive to them and create another alternative for anybody w ho needs it. Forcing a discussion on people w ho have nothing to do w ith the the decisions of Gnome or Canonical is w hat I am pointing out. At the right place and time constructive criticism is good. How ever, not every event or session or forum w hich has something to do w ith Ubuntu is the right place for this. reply 0 votes

Mono is not part of GNOME

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:23 — James C ape (not verified)

On my Fedora 16 laptop, w hich uses GNOME 3.2, Mono is not included by default. In the actual GNOME FTP repositories, none of the applications there use Mono. Of course, this assumes that Mono actually has some kind of licensing issue---it doesn't. ASP.NET and W indow s.Forms can be revoked, but the popular applications on Linux (i.e. Tomboy and Banshee) are w ritten w ith Gtk#, w hich has no such concerns. reply 0 votes

Agree to disagree

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:15 — Random C ritters (not verified)

The problem is that the community is fracturing severely. Ubuntu (and as such Canonical) is in a leading position to provide the glue that holds that fracturing community together. Yes, there are desktop choices and on this w e can agree. But to completely destroy the faith of it's user base in order to push out their interpretation of a desktop interface is not only adding pressure to the fracture but it's a move I for one w ould only expect from the "Evil" empire w e as *nix users love to hate. The chosen standards by the larger user community are KDE, X and Gnome. And yet Canonical sees fit to throw another (crappy IMHO) interface at it's user base. I w ould completely understand and even agree if they stuck w ith the current Gnome instead of Gnome 3 as in your KDE analogy. But to pull a new interface out of the rabbit hole w ithout really looking at w hat the user base is... it's a total farce and show s that Canonical as an entity is losing, or has already lost, touch w ith its user base. I am a Canonical customer (yes a paying one) as are several enterprise deployments that I support. We never once received a survey or anything from Ubuntu/Canonical on w hat our preferences w ere. I'm in a precarious position because I fought to get RedHat and CentOS out of the netw ork(s) and brought Ubuntu in on both the desktop and server ends. The included GUI in 10.04 (duh) w as phenomenal and required NO user training. We recently fielded 6 test PC's w ith 11.04 and ALL users required training to make heads or tails of Unity. This is one facility out of 26. W ith a user base of ~3200 employees - w ho is going to foot the bill to train them? Certainly not Canonical or the Ubuntu community at large. Gnome and KDE are for better or w orse user friendly. Unity looks like some kid w ith an iPod said "I can make a GUI". We can not do a custom build of Ubuntu (12.04 is our next jump cycle inline w ith LTS) and deploy it to our PC vendors for deployment on desktops in order to maintain Gnome in the enterprise. Sure, Canonical w ill do it at a cost but that's of no benefit to us. We chose Ubuntu because it's a canned out of box experience that's universal across and entire enterprise and is easily understood. Any w ho... I'm starting to rage :-) reply 0 votes

Desktop choice

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:44 — txwikinger

W hat stops you to use KDE or Gnome3 on the Ubuntu system? I understand the argument of fracturing. How ever, this is w hat often happens in the process of innovation. We had beryll and compiz split and later re-unite. The result w as a superior product. In the same w ay, I see good things in Unity that w ill probably w ill find its w ay into other desktop. As w ill happen in other directions. This cross-pollination w ill help all users in the end. reply 0 votes

Switching away

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 23:26 — Nebojsa Markovic (not verified)

Most of Ubuntu's user base are people w ho need a stable,

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pragmatic Linux distribution, to use it to perform a daily computational tasks, sometimes on large scale, in large companies w ith many users. You can not "just sw itch to KDE" if you have hundreds of users, most of them not computer specialists. Problem here is, that a lot of us, like Mike Fernandes in earlier comment, sw itched to Ubuntu several years ago mostly because w e perceived it as a distribution that can be relied upon not to force us to sw itch desktop. W hat I expected Canonical people w ould do in a situation like this, Gnome 3 going crazy w ith the shell, w as to offer us a shell for Gnome 3 that w ould let us CONTINUE our w ork uninterrupted, by building a Gnome shell similar to the one w e use. That w ould be the only pragmatic, user friendly thing to do. And I feel greatly disappointed w ith w hat Canonical did instead, building this Unity thing, forcing desktop users to use a tablet UI! I'm sure they w ill loose desktop users w ith this, and I don't think they w ill get many tablet users. Back to the point, if Ubuntu developers force me to sw itch desktop now , I'm not sure I w ill continue to use Ubuntu. I think this is a very important problem, that can decide future of this distribution if not addressed properly, so it is perfectly understandable that w e alw ays sw itch to it. reply 0 votes

Not really the point

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 00:03 — txwikinger

Not sure w hat I should say about this anymore. 1) W indow s has dramatic changes from release to release too. According to this hypothesis, Microsoft should lose users in the 100s of millions every new release. 2) Change of UI does not mean loss of stability, just change of how apps are started. IMHO the desktop is rather irrelevant for my usage (I use Linux for > 10 years, used early versions of Gnome and KDE since version 3.x. I have gone through the KDE3 -> KDE4 change (and had to listen to all the w hining at the time too), and did not have a lot of problems to adapt. In any case. I did not say anybody needs to like the changes. How ever, Canonical or Ubuntu does not force anybody into a change. Gnome decided w ithout any input of Canonical to change the Gnome shell, otherw ise anybody w ho likes could use w hat is provided by Gnome instead of Unity. Furthermore, there is an LTS release w hich w ill be supported for quite a long time too, w hich does not force anybody to change. Nevertheless, I do not take sides on this issue, I merely have stated, that the fact that this issue is forced onto everybody w ho is not interested at every possible opportunity, w hen other topics like how to make a LoCo more effective are the appropriate topic. This ubiquitous existence of this rather irrelevant topic of Unity is rather off-putting to me. A little consideration about the fact that other important issue are also existent w ould be appreciated! reply 0 votes

True, but 1) Tue, 11/01/2011 - 12:23 — Scaine (not verified) Microsoft lost a
True, but 1) Microsoft lost a lot of w hat little "trust" they had left w ith the community w hen they introduced things like the Ribbon, not to mention the abomination of the new Vista/W indow s 7 interface (how many clicks do you require to change your IP address in either?). Ubuntu now faces that same loss of trust. 2) In the corporate environment, your users are EXTREMELY adverse to any change, so a massive shift like Unity represents a huge hurdle in training costs to be borne by anyone w ho make the change. There are w ay around this - XFCE, or LXDE, but they bring their ow n headaches in terms of testing. Workarounds for corporate proxy servers, suspend/resume settings or global configuration tools like Landscape or Puppet w hich may have w orked in Gnome 2 may not w ork reliably in Gnome 3, or at all in LXDE. Either w ay, the cost of training, testing and implementing becomes massive. reply 0 votes

Windows has Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:45 — Jon (not verified) dramatic changes
>> W indow s has dramatic changes from release to release

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too. According to this hypothesis, Microsoft should lose users in the 100s of millions every new release. That's how I ended up using Ubuntu to begin w ith! I w as tired of paying more money to re-learn UIs. It seems that Ubuntu has enabled me to do this for free. reply 0 votes

As far as I know, Gnome does

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:01 — Marius Gedminas (not verified)

As far as I know , Gnome does not use Mono, and Mono does not have any licencing problems (w hen people spread Mono FUD, they talk about patents, not licences). I find it ironic that you bring up a controversial topic (and take sides) in rhe middle of a post akong people not to w aste time talking about controversial topics. reply 0 votes

Mono issue

Sun, 10/30/2011 - 13:36 — txwikinger

I did not intent to make a legal argument or take sites here, but rather tried to show an example how things change over time. I have changed this part a little to hopefully make it more accurate and less a contentious point. reply 0 votes

TXWIKINGER 73.143 (+0.687)

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