H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U.G.

AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1>

First and Last Public Talk of U.G. after his Calamity
[At the Indian Institute of World Culture Bangalore in the year 1972]
Let me, at the very outset, thank the authorities of the Indian Institute of World Culture for giving me this opportunity to meet you all here. I was very reluctant to accept the invitation of Mr. Venkataramaiah. But somehow, if I may use that word, I was trapped into this kind of a thing. As Mr. Kothari pointed out, I don't like to give talks at all. You all seem to be very fond of listening to speeches, talks, lectures, discussions, discourses, conversations, and so on. I do not know if at any time you realize for yourself and by yourself that you never listen to anybody or anything in this world. You always listen to yourself. I really don't know what to say. I don't know what you want to listen to and what I am expected to do. This is supposed to be a discourse and a dialogue. I very often point out to those who come to see me and talk things over that no dialogue is possible and no dialogue is necessary. It may sound very strange to you, but, nevertheless, the fact does remain that no dialogue is possible and yet no dialogue is necessary. If you will permit me, I will say a few words, to set the ball rolling, as it were. That's a very hackneyed and over-worked expression, but that would serve our purpose. I am going to say a few words about the state of not knowing. How can anybody say anything about the 'state of not knowing?' I have necessarily to use words. Can we use words without indulging in abstract concepts. I say we can. But I do not, at the same time, mean that it is a non-verbal conceptualization. That is a funny thing -- there is no such thing as non-verbal conceptualization at all. But, perhaps, a few words like this will enable you to understand [that] the methods of thought prevent you from understanding the limitations of thought as a means to directly experience life and its movements. This 'state of not knowing' is not [just] my particular state. (This I call it a 'Natural State' of your being.) This is as much your natural state as it is mine. It is not the state of a God-realized man; it is not the state of a Self-realized man. It is not the state of a holy man. It is the natural state of every one of you here. But since you are looking to somebody else and you are reaching out for some kind of a state of liberation, freedom, or moksha -- I don't know what words you want to use -- you are lost. But, how can one understand the limitations of thought? Naturally, the only instrument we have is the instrument of thought. But what is thought? I can give you a lot of definitions, and you know a lot of definitions about thought. I can say that thought is just matter; thought is vibration; and we are all functioning in this sphere of thought. And we pick up these thoughts because this human organism is an electro-magnetic field. And this electro-magnetic field is the product of culture. It may sound very inappropriate on this occasion to say that in order to be in your natural state, all that man has thought and felt before you must be swept aside and must be brushed aside. And that means the culture in

http://www.well.com/user/jct/Talk.htm (1 of 18)29.08.2005 16:50:39 Uhr

But there is an area where you are neither conscious nor unconscious. It can never become part of your conscious thinking.com/user/jct/Talk. or the persons around you. thoughts are there and they are going to be there.well.' 'beatitude.into a cocked hat. I do not. So. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> which you are brought up must go down the drain or out of the window. If all the religious teachers tell us that you are going into a 'thoughtless state.08.' 'religious joy. You are not different from that. in your consciousness. You cannot separate yourself from that culture.let me use these two words . And yet.htm (2 of 18)29. When I say that. But that 'consciousness'-. You and I mean two different things. you might as well throw the whole thing -. it naturally slows down and falls in its natural pattern. http://www. Otherwise.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. of course. at the same time. when you see the tremendous nature of this movement of thought. So.I don't know.it can never become part of your consciousness. All that is balderdash. And yet. this culture is the stumbling block for us to be in our natural state.' and 'ecstatic state of being'. Thoughts are there.that thought must be used in order to get into a thoughtless state or into a meditative state. Because.if there is any state like the state of bliss -.if I may use that word -.'dead corpse'. As long as there is any trace of knowledge. of all that man has thought and felt before you. you are living in a divided state of consciousness. It can never become part of your conscious existence. our culture. because you are the product of that culture and you are that. you have to necessarily use thought to become conscious of the things around you. But there is no such thing as a thoughtless state at all.in that state of silence. Can I do anything about that thought? Can I stop it? Can I mold it? Can I shape it? Can I do anything about it? But yet.there will be this real 'bliss. can that instrument be used to understand its own nature? It is not possible. at the same time. So. I have to explain what I mean by the word 'consciousness'. It is not a conscious state of your existence. if I may use that American slang.' 'love. you are not conscious of the things at all. and what prevents that consciousness to express itself in its own way is the movement of thought.all these have forced us to use that instrument to get something for us. Here. concepts and abstractions about the blissful states -. They can promise you that in that thoughtless state -. Otherwise. probably -. you are not unconscious. that state -. in any shape.' or whatever phrase you want to use -.' they are taking us all for a ride. it is so difficult. in that state of quietness.the whole crap of these ideas. what is one to do? Can anybody help you? No outside agency can help you. contained and expressed through words? It cannot. What can anyone do about this thought? It has a tremendous momentum of millions and millions of years. our civilization. our education -. they will be there all the time. That means a complete and total rejection.2005 16:50:39 Uhr . Thoughts will disappear only when you become a dead corpse -. And.expresses itself in its own way. and that there isn't anything that you can do about it. or in that state of a 'Quiet Mind. When do you become conscious of a thing? Only when the thought comes in between what is there in front of you and what is supposed to be there inside of you. in any form. It can never become part of your conscious thinking. Is it possible? It is possible. That is consciousness. So.G. And then why do I talk of this state of not knowing? For all practical purposes it does not exist at all. But. mean what these people in India talk about-. as I said in the beginning. Can this 'Natural State' be captured.

and then the knowledge.G. Not only then. So. This state of not knowing is in its relationship to the things that are there around you. But [in you] there is an illusion that there is a totality of your feelings and thoughts. since there is nothing here. What happened? I don't know. But when there is a demand for that -and that demand always comes from outside. You were asking like a newborn child. which is a product of centuries of human evolution. Kothari] referred to my coming into a state of 'not knowing' or 'the calamity. perhaps millions and millions of sensations are bombarding this body." Then you would ask again.com/user/jct/Talk. Since there is no center here. [asking] what is that. The continuity has come to an end. not inside. the information that is there. you did not know if that was a flower.I don't know. Nor is it a logically ascertained premise. One sensation after another is hitting this organism.so. This is a living organism and that living state is functioning in its own http://www. it begins to operate when there is a demand for it. there is nobody here who is translating these sensations in terms of past experiences. or to the stimuli. said "This is a flower. I say that this action is always taking place outside of this organism. So. that's a man. And. So. You may not agree. Perhaps it is -. thousands and thousands. Since the memory is there in the background. Kothari] himself referred to. You may be looking at a flower. "What is this?" And the Swiss lady who was keeping house for you. This human organism is responding to the challenges from outside. who was looking after you. that's a woman. This is not because there is a drive from inside. but even now. How do I know that these sensations are bombarding or hitting this organism all the time? It is only because there is a consciousness which is conscious of itself and there is nobody who is conscious of the things that are happening. And at the same time there is no coordinator here. the extraordinary intelligence that is there. It has no religious undertones or overtones. this extraordinary thing. You may not accept it. [she is here with us]. locked up in this organism comes and says that it is a rose. if I may put it that way. You do not know what you are looking at. as I said. or your Nirguna Brahman or Saguna Brahman or any such thing. Q: May I interrupt you? I was told by people who are around you that when this calamity befell you.htm (3 of 18)29.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. Suddenly thought has fallen into its natural state. at the same time. that this is a microphone. You may think that it is a crazy state. As he [Mr. Then you would ask. There is no Atman here. what is it that is happening? What is happening here [is that] this human organism is responding to the challenges.08. There is no self here. all recognition was gone? U. what I am saying is not the product of thinking. It is not manufactured by my thought structure inside. Valentine. "What is this?" You mean to say that at the time when the calamity took place. That demand is created by an outside agency. You are functioning in the sphere -. It has no mystical content whatsoever. "What is this?" Even if there was a flower in front of you. The totality of thoughts and feelings is not there.' as I myself refer to that. this is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. This state of not knowing is not in relationship to your Brahman. since there is no mind here. That is all that is there. You do not know how this organism is functioning. but the outside challenge brings out this answer. But what is happening here is only the expression of that state of being where you do not know what is happening. There is no center here.G. because there is no entity here. this is a state of 'not knowing'. but that unfortunately happens to be a fact. But there is a living contact with the things around. is able to express itself and deal with any problem and any situation without creating problems for us.well.2005 16:50:39 Uhr . AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> He [Mr. you couldn't recognize even ordinary things. and so on and so forth. There is no soul here at all.

that's their tragedy. But personally I think you mean the same thing. I don't want to use these metaphysical phrases because you will immediately translate them in terms of your particular parallel. there is something else. because the new terms are your terms. it would be their misery. but http://www. Probably you will find parallels to these things. how mechanical it is. There is no subject here independent of the object at all. like an arrow. another uses the word "unknown.all of them say that this cannot be described..08.G. I think they meant probably what you are saying as "totality. according to his background. They wouldn't ask these questions at all. how automatic it is. Brahman means "totality." the third man says "akal" [the timeless]. Here there is a table. It hasn't helped them.com/user/jct/Talk.well. So.htm (4 of 18)29. That is why I say it is a state of not knowing. Mr." If I would translate this state into terms of those times. When once you realize. at the same time. as I said in the beginning. But I have to use that word: this is reflecting the thing exactly the way it is. in its natural way. And every teacher. I don't know what it is. So. Kothari: U. may be I am translating.how this mechanism is operating. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> way.when somebody uses the word Bhuma. probably it is the same thing as being in the state of Brahman and [it is] thought which is limiting the "alpa". What I am trying to point out is the absence of what you are all doing at this moment.: What do you want me to say? [Laughter] If they have understood what there is. which is limiting the limitless. when once this is understood -. Kothari] referred to. So. [that] is the state that I am describing. whatever it is -. I don't read books.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. in terms of their particular fancy or their particular background. But otherwise. It comes automatically. Atman. now you turn there. the fourth one says something else -.G.G. since it does not function like that. if you ask me. this [the impression I have] is just a reflection of this [the thing in front of me]. which is limiting the "bhuma". If they translate what I am saying. And. and naturally. We go back to the thing he [Mr. I don't translate this as "bimbavatu [like an image]" at all. You are not going to use the old terms." It [the knowledge] is there in the background. but I say that it is possible that the person who listens to you doesn't know the old terms." Probably they meant the same thing. You may very well ask me why I am using these phrases: [it is] because you and I have created this unfortunate situation where you have put me here on the dais and asked me to talk. They wouldn't go to anybody. it appears to me this Nirguna Brahman. the moment I stop talking. This is my question: Has it helped you? Why are you hung up on these phrases? They are after all phrases. Is that so? It is so here [in my case]. I have to use words. creating an individuality within you. a different word. This has completely and totally disappeared from here and then what is there is a thing that is there in front of me and it is just like this object. they wouldn't be here. "What is that?" I would immediately say. What is there is all that is there. U. "It's a chair. and it is not [just] my state [but] that is the way you are [also] functioning. the whole thing has come to a stop inside. and you do not know what it is. But you do not know what it is. "Neti. May I give an example of what is happening in the field of spectroscopy. exactly the way it is." As I understand it. I don't know. about the things around me. Neti.2005 16:50:39 Uhr . Maybe I am wrong. there is nothing here [inside of me]. This is a commentary on what you are saying. and this object has just disappeared. every person who has come into some state like this has generally used a different term. because there is no continuity of thought. you will realize that all these phrases have no meaning at all.

So. this word -. The sensitivity of the mind is a trick of your mind. or translate.to realize or discover -.: This I must stress: that the need for the operation of thought. [Laughter] [I am not trying to be irreverent.all that is outside -. I mean the sensitivity of the senses and not the sensitivity of the mind. and the human senses being limited. So your experiencing structure and your natural state cannot co-exist at the same time. it seems to me . every pico second. In exactly the same way.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. this verbalization. and you can create a state of mind where http://www. It is never old. When the movement of thought is not continuous. the senses begin to function in an extraordinarily sensitive way. thought is only functional in value.it's again you. is decided by factors outside of this organism. You have necessarily to abstract this in order to experience a thing. if possible. I am throwing a lot of conclusions at you. U.com/user/jct/Talk. This can never become part of your experiencing structure. But don't translate this in terms of newness and oldness. it is needed for translation. This can never become part of your experiencing structure. They have developed micro-seconds.it is just a way of affecting the life within you. When there is a demand. every time. It is not translated.] Mr. The human eye being limited and the human ear being limited. what I am trying to say is that you can never experience your own natural state. nanoseconds and picoseconds. It cannot be communicated to you at all. say for instance. life is indescribably. He says it is neither new nor old. the reflection of that object is once now.] What happens is. another time. [they] cannot respond to the quick movement of existence. Kothari: : [I am Neither. When and why and how this translation is to come into being is decided by an action outside.08. I get interested in these things. So. unless. as he says. Every picture is different. They have developed very powerful lenses to take photos of objects. and that's all. What is more is that the continuity of thought is destroying the sensitivity of your senses.whatever you want -. The actions are always taking place outside. I don't know if you understand this. Mr.: That's what you understand. or the movements of thought to come into being.2005 16:50:39 Uhr . And what you are all trying to do all the time is to make that -. It is never old because he does not take [it] into the [past] experience. [is he trying to mislead you by saying?.part of this experiencing structure. though he doesn't use the words `fresh' and `new'. the movement of thought probably separates itself for a while to meet the demands of the situation and then it is back again in the movement of life. They don't respond. You say. of this table.G. and it has no other value at all. When I use the word sensitivity. you are back again -.it's all technical language.G. Otherwise.is extraordinarily fresh..well. Now they are able to take pictures of objects. But even a thing like this cannot be experienced by you at all. It is all the time new. It doesn't mean anything to you and me -. this thought.. you turn this side.htm (5 of 18)29. It is all the time indescribably beautiful. Kothari: The way you want to say is that everything is in a continuous flux all the time.G. unless there is a need of recognition. This is how I understand. extraordinarily new. extraordinarily -... When they came into the world they have to say [something about it]. It is all the time fresh.] that all these persons coming to this have tried to express this in terms of what somebody else has said. they don't reflect. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> sometimes I read magazines. There is no need to verbalize. Am I describing what I understand of your state? U.

ultimate or otherwise. When thought is there. It's a state of not knowing. this living state. You have an image of this state.for truth. he will probably put me on a couch and say something is radically wrong with me. You know all about them. You'd rather be somebody http://www. There is nothing to achieve. you want to imitate the life of Shamkara. in its own way. you want to imitate the life of somebody else -. It requires an extraordinary intelligence to be in your natural state. It is not a logically ascertained thing.htm (6 of 18)29. but the drug of virtues you practice. day and night.G. And the practice of abstinence.well. You are all on a merry-go-round. But I don't want to use these words. it is not a rational thing [so as] to understand it rationally. from rose to saffron.the very person who has been with me all the time. sex is there. search has no meaning at all. God is there. When thought is there. there is no God. and celibacy is not the path to it. Truth is movement. How can you ask for a thing which you do not know? How can you search for a thing which you do not know? You all seem to know. Only when the search comes to an end. That is why I say I don't know. I am not here to reform you. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> you feel sensitive to the feelings of everybody. That's his problem."].2005 16:50:39 Uhr . what there is will express itself.com/user/jct/Talk. I am not claiming that I know it. You have to understand a fact as a fact. when thought is there. And you don't want to be in your state. It may sound objectionable to you to accept my statement [Mr. He doesn't understand that. because you don't know what is there behind. God. So. You cannot manipulate the action of the thing which is there. from expressing itself in its own way is the movement of thought which is there only for the purposes of functioning in this world. and that is the misery of you all. it's your own business. From the description of this state probably you have already created [an image]. I am not here to lead you anywhere. And what prevents what is there. You cannot manipulate that. to be yourself. That is my situation. You don't want to understand that. You will end up changing your robes. I don't know what I am looking at -. A fact is a movement. When thought is not there. The unfortunate thing about the whole business is that you know a lot about these things. If I tell this to a psychiatrist. Reality -. time is there. to the things around you and wallow in that sickly state of mind and think you are getting somewhere. you want to imitate the life of Buddha.you want to imitate the life of Jesus. You can't do it. To be yourself is the easiest thing. Probably. it is not my problem anymore. let alone reality.you use any phrase you like. This is a thing which you do not know at all. and you want to go round and round and round. Reality is movement. there is nothing to accomplish. saffron to yellow. nothing to attain.but time is thought. which has an extraordinary intelligence. or from yellow to rose. How can you ask for a thing which you do not know? How can you search for a thing which you do not know? That is my question. there is no sex. all your search -. I am functioning like any other human being. because they are all loaded words. Kothari:" Not at all. What is the state you are talking about? This is your natural state. is a false thing. the practice of virtues is not a foundation for it at all. But if you want to indulge in them and feel greatly superior.08. So. When the movement of thought is not there -.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. Let alone God. This is a thing that is there [you are doing this] all the time. You always want to be somebody else. and no destination to arrive at.I have to use the clauses in terms of time -. continence. I myself don't know. You don't want to be in your natural state. You cannot tamper with that. nothing is there. depending upon your particular fancy. But this is a fact. What state? Somebody asked me: "What is the state you are in?" "What State? Mysore State or Tamil Nadu State? What state are you talking about?" This is my response.

comparing something to some imaginary state which one has formulated. to be in a state of peace. imitate the life of somebody else. "kaschid dhirah. is as old as the hills and as fresh as the vibrations from that thing now. I fear.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. It is sanatana [ancient] and puratana [old]. You are not in a position to accept or reject it. he says. That's your problem. But you talk of timelessness. Turn your back on the whole business.. If you understand the way this mechanical structure is functioning inside of you. That is why. There is no such thing as the timeless. I couldn't be better. [they say] "How are you this morning. What I mean is the courage.that this is your natural state.. he is not advocating anything. It is as fresh or even fresher than the words I am speaking. I am not talking about metaphysical time and timeless.. And I am many times reminded. statements and conclusions -. or your Brahma Sutras.. but. So. I couldn't be better. takes us on the right path!" I find there is a sort fire in him which sometimes." All these phrases. Gaudapada. what he is trying to convey. not the courage or the bravado of these people who climb Mount Everest or try to swim across the English Channel. You quote your Bhagavad Gita. As I understand it. Another thing that I have noticed in him is a kind of -.. quite grasp. When I meet him. But. It's a mechanical thing.. all the problems.that he says is all futile. and vidya has gone also. to be in a state bliss. the sounds that I am throwing at you. it requires total courage. whatever he is trying to convey." Even avidya has gone. he even does not know [it himself]. So how can you understand this? The only thing to do is to throw in the towel.." In America. as he says. Take it or leave it.. he says. When tomorrow arrives. To be yourself.well.. you say. you see the absurdity of the whole business of discussing these matters everlastingly. to be a marvelously religious man. it takes extraordinary courage. His whole approach is." [Fearless is Brahman.whatever their fancy -. that the newness of expression. Ramanuja. only I want to remind some of my listeners here. and. "I don't know what I am or where I am. is all useless. You can reject it because it does not fit into the particular framework of your philosophy -Shamkara. naturally you need time. the whole thing broke inside. to get something. He has no system. It seems he has seen it himself.." "I am just fine. I am reminded of [the passage in] the Isavasyopanishad. And the structure went phut. Kothari]: I think what he means is.. you know. I am fine.G.htm (7 of 18)29. or cross the Pacific or Atlantic -..com/user/jct/Talk.] Why do you all repeat these phrases? It has no meaning.08. That is the state of unknowing. "asmai nayatu patha. http://www. He says something about these states -. When he says this. Can you throw the whole business out of the window and walk out? [Mr. I have known him for about five years now. even intellectually.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . on account of my having read the Upanishads and this and that.. [I am] Not [talking about] this metaphysical or philosophical thing. I am making assertions. But the whole thing. [the state being] like something. and it is giving a life to it -.we have too many of them here." "Oh fire.on a raft. day after tomorrow. To be yourself doesn't need any time at all. "How are you?" "I am all right. "All right.I am talking personally about you. I don't expect you to accept anything that I am saying. Madhvacharya. What do they mean? "Abhayam Brahma. It is strengthening the mental structure. I see.which. I am reminded of the words of Jnaneswar who says. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> else.you will object to them. It is the cause of your very misery. do you need time? To be a good man. That is not what I mean.. you throw these phrases at everybody." In exactly the same way. It is more fresh than that. which is a mockery... would frighten a person who does not understand. Just fine. it is strengthening the thought structure." That is time. God knows what -. this achievement business. That will always be tomorrow. an image we got by reading about those things -.

There is only physical pain and there is no other pain. you are your natural state. becomes conscious of that thing [called hunger]. there is no continuity of pain. "You throw out the speaker also.. in whatever he conveys. if you don't eat food. what happens? You mean what happens to him or what happens to you? U. And [the next moment] it is gone. Kothari: "They don't have any. He says you don't have the courage to throw in the towel. the daivika sampatti [the divine qualities]. As I pointed out. normal men in whom the animal fear is functioning all the time. is taking you away from yourself in the direction of the state you want to be in and that is the state of somebody else.. But [there is in him] a tremendous fearlessness and a sense of abandonment. It does not push you to reach out for food. First of all.." He says. I say. Probably your body will become weaker and weaker. But even that physical pain is not continuous. If you can do that. because we will begin to tie things in knots. "abhayam tattva samsuptih. But he does not come out of that [state]. It's pure and simple chemistry. "[inaudible].. [Mr. on their backs. Otherwise.. there is physical pain. it doesn't matter.G. the method. You don't have the fearlessness. It is not there.Laughter] Yes. So. It comes in impulses like that -.G. He gets annoyed. the next sensation is coming. and he gets angry also. and after a minute you see the full moon is again on his face. I don't know how he came to it."] I will not take you to jail. and so it is not much of a pain. And then there is what you call hunger which is like any other sensation.08. Unfortunately.well.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. People give me food. Kothari: "Not now!" -. is taking you away from yourself. Kick them all out. The consciousness or life. Q: [Inaudible] [Mr. your idol. as he says. Kothari:] Your question is. when there is hunger and pain in the body. or whatever you want to call it. I don't want to use the word psychological pain. And the pain.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . I am already doing mischief. That is all that I am pointing out. or your hero or your master [is there] -it is there -." I hope some of you certainly have got the hang of what he is trying to convey. he says there is no risk in the matter. there is some suggestion. you will never go to listen to anybody. or system." I would again quote the Gita. fearlessness. as the expression has it. That's a problem with the http://www. the sadhana. as I pointed out. smiling. you understand. in the sense in which we use the word.this movement in any direction.htm (8 of 18)29. you have the knowledge about this state.just the way you are throwing out words. so I eat food. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> as there is no personality.a tremendous. So. Q: What is the way or method of getting into this state? U. because it gets us involved in. When the movement is not there. this is something that does not happen in the usual. And so. in the sense in which we use the word.G. there is no hunger at all. or the technique. I will go to jail. perhaps. Probably. throw stones at me and walk out. so many people have talked about it. have got to go. There is no continuity of the pain."] My interest is to send you packing. For a moment you see the cloud of anger on his face.com/user/jct/Talk. It's a continuous movement. [Laughter] -. The clouds have disappeared all of a sudden. [Someone in the audience: "If I throw stones. He is not a perfect specimen of all the wonderful virtues.: What state? When the movement in the direction of wanting to be into your own natural state or in the state of God knows whom you want to be. there is no such thing as hunger at all. You are looking at something and this is finished.: I will tell you. Since there is no continuity of thought. [Mr.

Why do you ask all these questions? These questions have been put before to so many people -. I will not be the first one to complain about it. It's there all the time. to talk and whisper. They don't even understand what the other man is saying. You go and listen to them and go to sleep.. If I am a village idiot. there is no thought at all. That's enough.08. I am in the Mysore State. When you realize the absurdity of all your effort to do something about the thought -." What is the destination you want to arrive at? To be gentle. it's not there. To be yourself doesn't need time.. You understand? Wanting is thinking. to be soft. There is no other world.want self-realization.all the sages. So. want Godrealization -. If you think that it doesn't make any sense.. Even if my neighbor takes advantage of his extraordinary intelligence and exploits [me]. What all you think I have said is a `bag'.you want anything. This is the only reality. Mr. I don't want to be an intelligent man..well. words -. They belong to somebody else. I don't know how they are coming.htm (9 of 18)29. I can't help you.when you can't do anything. How do I know that I am in the Mysore State? Because people tell me that I am in Mysore.[you are] listening to this noise -. I remain a village idiot.com/user/jct/Talk. They have composed a lot of lullabies. You want to make them your own. what state? It always irritates me when people ask me "You tell us something . I wish I knew. that means you have to use this instrument. good luck. You can't run away from this world. if you want to.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. it's misery for you. You have unfortunately made them your own. ultimate reality. you haven't understood a thing.. he talks and whispers to his beloved. How can it make sense? If you think that it makes sense. it doesn't matter what you want -. I suppose. words. Do more and more of the same and you will reach the destination you want to arrive at. I want to say this again. There is no other reality. You have to function in this world.. Kothari: When a man is in love. You may not like it. That's why you ask all these questions. Where you can you go? Hide yourself in a cave? Yes. this is the reality of the world. You think it makes sense.G. they talk and whisper. That's all that I am saying.. "Oh. you can't do anything -. the Trappist. [Laughter] You don't even have to http://www. just fine. these are not your feelings.G. saints and saviors of mankind. you can't do a thing about thought.it's creating the problem. I wish I knew how I got into .words. you haven't understood it either. That's what you are interested in. You desire. Are you not tired? I can go on. That's the secret to the spiritual path. What can I do? To accept the reality. what state you want to get into? That is your natural state. It's just words -. You are not using it [thought] as a means to get something for you. You want somebody else to pat on your back and say. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> society in which you are caught. meek. What objection do you have to anybody talking and whispering? U. you are taking your thoughts wherever you go.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . I am saying.. Finish. They are all ready to answer. the holy men dead and alive. I wonder if he is really in love. when you realize that you can't do a thing about it.: I have no objection at all. If you do not want anything. You cannot run away from your shadow.mechanically coming out of this organism. You know if you go to some of these monasteries in the West. These are not your thoughts. How can you run away from this world? Because you are that world. you are doing very well. So. What takes you away from your state is this movement in the direction of wanting to be in some state other than yourself. I haven't said anything." About what state? What state are you talking about? I know Mysore. fine.

So. you don't know.htm (10 of 18)29. that love. this. There is no "I" independent of this word. `pig'.or conditioning. "Am I happy?" Total happiness is an invention. You don't have to do a thing about it. This is the continuity I am talking about. What is that awareness you are talking about? How can you be aware of this? Can you at any time be aware of it? If you are aware of this once in your lifetime. The moment you separate yourself means you have a knowledge about it -." U.. Your mother told you. You are all the time trying to have relationship with people. In love." "Life is relationship. You have no way of separating yourself from what is going on. the psychologists or the religious people. "Love is relationship. the physiologists.08. And what is that abstraction? The knowledge you have about it." What is this nonsense? This is like any other trite [phrase]." "first and last freedom. that you are awake. "Freedom. This has been put there.thoughtless state as in "this. You memorize and repeat them [those phrases]. Conditioning -what can you do about it? Conditioning is intelligence. The "I" is nothing but this word. Crap.instead of repeating Upanishads you will repeat some other thing. Q: What is the secret of total happiness? U.. They all become fancy phrases these days." and "the freedoms that come in between. Only through an abstraction. So through that you are looking at it.. You cannot have any relationship with people at all. Where is the mind? Is the mind separate from the body? Distinguished from the body? Apart from the body? These questions have no meaning at all. plenty. I never ask [myself] that question.: Yes. You can't free yourself [from it]. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> talk about it. What are you doing that for? This is my question. `love'. Kothari:] Plenty. You want to reassure yourself that you are there. [Mr. You can talk of awareness -. yes. They ask me.com/user/jct/Talk. you mean?"] There is no mind. How are you going to uncondition yourself? You create another conditioning -. So many people ask me that question: "Are you happy?" What is that question? Funny question. This is my state..H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. "Do you have anything to say about . It's a forbidden subject. Q: [Inaudible] .G. You want to reassure your partner that you are in love with that person.. You have memorized a new set of phrases.. You cannot experience this at all.. Kothari: "Invention of the mind. That's all you are doing. Every time you look at this. any other crap that these people are repeating. it doesn't mean a thing at all. You cannot experience anything without knowledge.. this. let alone Brahman or reality.: There is no happiness." All that guff. the fancy books..choiceless or otherwise -. the whole structure has collapsed. I don't want to go into that. "The consciousness I am talking about.. your lung is functioning all http://www. They called it 'cit'. I don't even know if I am alive or dead.well.G.`dog'.?" It's a four letter word. can there be any relationship at all? Can you have any relationship? This is your problem.. Maybe you find some parallel [to what I am saying] in Shamkara or God knows what. apart from what you have been told. I have no way of knowing for myself. [Mr. or uncondition yourself and all that nonsense that is going on . That's not love at all. The doctor can come and say that I want to examine your lung. There is no division at all. What the hell is that. Because this is the same thing that they have talked about.G. You can call it love. It's like any other word -. you have to repeat to yourself that it is a table.the knowledge given by either the biologists.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . If you want to free yourself from your conditioning. It isn't worth a tinker's damn. You can't do a damn thing about it. I never ask myself the question. it has fallen in its proper place. that you are dreaming . Trite. You cannot experience this at all. is a state where there is no division which says that you are asleep. or your neighbor or friend told you that this is a table. You sit and discuss everlastingly all this awareness.

2005 16:50:40 Uhr . Because you are projecting this knowledge on what you are looking at. barking of a dog or the braying of an ass.they are trying to understand the brain. You can separate yourself from the mechanism and look at it only through the knowledge. that and the other -. And from his point of view. which he calls extraordinary experience. any experience.well.com/user/jct/Talk. So. in its own way. for that matter. And that [knowledge] is worthless.: I don't bother. Q: What is that mechanism? U. And when they are tired.you are alive.there is heartbeat. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> right -. Whether it is the consciousness that I am talking of. What I mean by action is [that] the action is taking place always outside.: What is that mechanism? Supposing somebody gives you an answer. a poet or a writer. There is no time even for the eyelids to blink for a second. "It is aware of itself. Kothari: "Why sex experience.G. -. He is trying to communicate some experience. You can't experience this at all. through his medium -writing poetry. It is acting all the time. can never become part of your conscious existence. Can you look at your back and tell me something about your back. And they have to find some means to define [it]. Am I talking.G. That can never become part of that experiencing structure.: That. They have defined the brain as an instrument with which we think. fancy ideas. If you can put this on that level and just listen to this vibration.08. If I use some words. it is expressing itself as action. it is conscious of itself. or the living state or the state of not knowing or the things that are there around [you]. Q: How do you know at any time that you are in the Natural State? U. and that knowledge is creating or producing these experiences. am I saying anything? This is like the howling of a jackal. I don't know a thing about it. you are out. The expression of that is energy.htm (11 of 18)29. That's what everybody is trying to do -. Do I exist in this world? Does the world exist for me? Where is the world? I am not trying to be clever with all these phrases. if I see a painter. there is this. But.. Or. and so forth. Can you communicate your sex experience to somebody else? [Mr.a painter. So. he would say that that man is sick. That's the trouble. It begins to express itself." -. I am delighted. You cannot separate yourself from the brain and its activity and look at the brain. you will walk out. They are not so sure. It's not because you want to look at a particular thing. And he has his own ideas. if I may quote somebody..but you cannot [experience it]. How is it expressing itself? It is expressing itself as energy."] Or any experience. and that is action." The doctor always observes people. That's all right. as I said.all these phrases may sound very mystical to you -. Q: How do you reconcile your existence with the world? U. The senses are working at their peak capacity all the time. He is like any other artisan.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. Somebody else must come and tell you. and you will http://www. whether the knowledge is provided by a physician or by a saint or by a sage. his description is something else.G. this is a thing which you cannot communicate to somebody else. which cuts off the sensation. this man's back is not correct. The brain physiologists.G. it [the body] has its own naturally built-in mechanism. "You have a straight back. You want to experience this. where are you? Can you separate yourself from that mechanism? This is what I am saying. They have to stay open all the time. This is not a mystical term. culture. You reassure me that I am a living being. it is aware of its own its incredible death. And then it's back again.

[Laughter] Somebody else will be there. Because life has no beginning. There is no way out for you. All this is disturbing the peace that is already there. There is nothing to get from me or from anybody. has it an end? What creates the beginning is your thought. You want freedom. U.com/user/jct/Talk. It doesn't have to be the talk of a self-realized man. [Laughter] I am not trying to mystify. Life is not interested in any one of those things. Has it a beginning.08.: You want comfort. Your idea of peace is altogether different. if the sense organs do not function at all. that and the other. destroying the very thing that you want? [It is] all those human values and all the good things... Finish. *** TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO TAPES U.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . You will realize that there is no self to realize. That is [adding] another misery. it has no end. You will not get anything from anybody. It is very difficult to understand.. U. Q: Because there is nothing left. That's all.G. What are you? You are miserable. Q: Now. If you want to experience death. It will be somebody else's misery..misery continues. It is working in an extraordinary way. it looks like. and that is killing you. You want to get out of that misery. You are a sitting misery.. There is no center there.. your freedom. go there. You are choked. you are not going to be there..: There is no death.:How can you say that now? When you are there that question would not be there at all. Q: In the extinction of sense organs.the GET of all the 'gets' -. it http://www. You are not born at all.. But what you want to get -. living misery. If somebody says there is a way out. U. Why are you concerned about death? There is no such as death at all. To be free from the very demand to be free is all that you have to do. You want affection from the person you are living with.you are not going to.G. That [what you want to get] is in relationship with your enlightenment. there is death.. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> never listen to anybody in your lifetime.. That is not easy.htm (12 of 18)29.do what you like -. talking misery.G. transformation and all that kind of thing. What is it that is choking you. hang from the tree.G. Stand on your head.G. You are never born.: You have to live with your ideas and suffer. Your birth and your death can never become part of that experiencing structure. walking misery. meditate -. there is a state of not knowing and you still function.. stand on your shoulders. You want to be at peace with yourself.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. for instance. if we had no idea of peace at all.well. If I put it that way. You want this. That moment is a living moment.

but it is the same thing. Whatever you learn afterwards is of no use to you." Assuming for a moment that there is an enlightened one. Baba Free John -. The newness of it is lost because you have captured it within your framework.htm (13 of 18)29. It is aging slowly. The age is going to catch up.. If I talk of life -. That is all the interest of people. That is the great tradition. They say that the growth of intelligence stops by the time you are sixteen. It is happening in India and it is happening in America. I am using the Sanskrit word -. The astrologer said. Whatever you learn afterwards is only widening the horizon and not in anyway improving your understanding. the growth of the body stops by the time you are 22 or 23 years. From then on it is slowly deteriorating. Moreover.a wish that something should happen. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> becomes a carrot for you. U. Because there is more and more publicity. You don't have to do a thing. Another 21 years you will constantly move.it doesn't interest me.. Knowledge is widening. Anything I say will be added to the stuff you already have.it becomes poetry.J.the basic situation remains unchanged. you are looking for a new Bible. That is why I was telling him that "You have not moved away from your background. That is all you can do. In that sense I am not interested in expanding -having more and more people. "Until that happens you are not going to die.com/user/jct/Talk. So. The interest of everybody is to stop the aging process. to function in this world.G.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . It looks like another new thing.G. Not like Rajneesh scandals and all that.living moments -. new church and a new priest. They may not even know what he is saying. It doesn't matter where you go -.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. It is another carrot." Whatever you need to know to function in this world intelligently and sanely is already there in you. running away from the people in order to avoid them from following you. Romantic stuff. that man cannot die unless everybody in this world comes to know that there is such a man. It is in that sense that this fellow has a message to give. You can't do anything else. to learn anything." I don't know. "You will become the idol of the masses. I feel uncomfortable. *** Q: Sir! Do you have Samkalpa? I have no English word for that. http://www. more and more curiosity is created in people. but they say.well. No matter where you go. I don't know if there is anything to astrology. As far as the body is concerned.K.08. I don't care what the astrologers say. One or two [more] -. This will be another burden.

The needs are the physical needs of the body. But. It is a renewal process.G. They are neither holy nor unholy. Sometimes for forty nine minutes the body goes through a very elaborate process of dying.:That is true. I also function as if the whole world is real. That is of secondary importance. I have no goal independent of my needs.:You are talking of a 'you' after death. There is not one moment where there is no sensation of some kind or the other. Life is acting all the time.' Q: The action is not quenching of the thirst? U. Here [in my case].: No. For example. Q: After that process of death is there anything like a 'you'? U.G. You have to use thoughts to achieve something. But if the body is in a state of repose. I can't say that I am asleep either. But I can't say that I am awake. I see and I don't know what I am looking at. and that is brought into operation in response to the demands of the situation. They come and go. What I know is in the background. This can hit you all of a sudden while you are walking in the street. Wanting is thinking. My wants are [limited to] my physical needs. there are some moments the nature of which you will never know. Q: There is nothing connected with what you see? U. Life is action. Q: So. In that sense the action is complete.htm (14 of 18)29. there is no Samkalpa.G. and it is impossible for you to visualize and capture that.G. But. U. I can't use thoughts.:I don't know. You have to accept the reality of the world up to a point. there is thirst. I don't know what I am looking at. to me there is no time-lag. I really don't know. I don't know what you call samadhi or nirvikalpa samadhi.: No.:You see.G.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. They go together. Is there anything like what you call 'you' now? Where is it now? Are you awake? Are you alive now? Q: I feel I am awake. It [the background] plays its part and then it is gone. They are not your thoughts or my thoughts. All the sensory activity has to come to an end for a 'kshana'.G. There are no other needs. to accomplish something. You have to say to yourself that you are thirsty. Every action is independent. That is what I mean by 'action. you can't function in this world. because there are constant demands on the body. My sensory perceptions http://www. You are responding to the sensations all the time. I started from home and have come to see you. of course.a fraction of a second. Otherwise. the action is complete. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> U.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . But the demands [of the body] are so great that they cannot allow this for long. U.well. Thought has got to come into operation and separate itself from that sensation of what you call 'thirst'. there is no gap between my needs and my goals. Then the action is complete. You may feel the time-lag between what I call an 'action' here and the completion of that 'action' out there. Thoughts are there.G.com/user/jct/Talk. The body has to go through the process of death every now and then to renew itself. it takes a longer time. The moment a thought arises there.08. Somehow it has to snap out of it. I have come here.

there is no such thing as 'being'. everything that you are feeling inside. The process you adopt to attain what you call 'being' is also a 'becoming' process.not transcending these things but a total absence of this division.any movement. and that you wear a white shirt. thought has got to come into operation.com/user/jct/Talk. Anything you do -. Q: Because we are involved in every perception we are not in the state you are describing? U.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . So. You don't want to come to an end.:Then there is no mirror which is reflecting. Many of these things are handled by the spinal column.in the turiya state. all your meditations. on any level -. That is why so much importance has been given to the spinal column.G. but still I really don't know what I am looking at.: Because there is a constant demand on your part to experience everything that you look at. but it is not operating. No anesthesia has been administered on me. *** http://www. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> are at their peak capacity. 'you' as you know yourself and as you experience yourself is coming to an end. dream and deep sleep states? A total absence of this division in your consciousness into wakeful.the protective mechanism -. Then there is an action necessary. They are handled and disposed off before that [point]. So. If you don't do that.all that you do is strengthening the 'self'.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. That is why I say that in this consciousness there is no such division as jagratta. So am I awake or asleep? I have no way of knowing it for myself. Whatever you do to be free from the 'self' is also a self-centered activity.well. all your sadhana -. you want continuity. *** Q: You say that if this thought barrier -. that is brown.is a becoming process. All your actions from then on are reflex actions. a dhoti and glasses etc. in any direction. That is a frightening thing.08. which is for the protection of the body. All the spiritual pursuits are in the direction of strengthening that continuity. They are self-centered activities. The knowledge I have about things is in the background. dream and sleep states may be called 'turiya' -.G.aren't those the words for wakeful. all your experiences. So you are always -. then the body responds to or resonates with anything that happens? U. The moment they reach the sensorium. swapna and sushupti -. [Then] sensations don't reach the sensorium at all.G.is removed.to use your Sanskrit phrase -. but there is nothing inside of me which says that is green.htm (15 of 18)29.

What I am saying can't be experienced by you except through the help of thought. Any effort means that there is a distortion of the whole thing. Otherwise. here you automatically say "Ouch!" -. Reaction is the interference of thought and the translation of thought in terms of the experiencing structure. For example. You take a deep breath and look at it. There is no effort. Not that there is somebody who is attentive. I make a distinction between reaction and response. naturally I use this comparative structure. you see. but all that movement is felt here. There is nothing here independent of what is happening there. You cannot separate the response from the stimulus.' They didn't mean this beauty.G. because you are moving with it. For example. So. So. it is a beautiful thing within that framework. Where is the movement taking place? Is it there? Is it here? Or where? I can't say. not a concept. you have moved your hand from there. or sensation [and the stimulus] are one movement.the expression of pain. It's very strange. is beauty. not a thought. Everything that is happening there is registered here as a movement. It is not a thought. Impressions are made through words like the rods and cones. Memory [in my case] is extraordinarily sharp. Sometimes I can't recall names. you don't sit there and watch the sunset for hours and hours and write poems. as http://www.08.' This [body] is totally attentive.com/user/jct/Talk. *** U. Maybe that is why they used the phrase 'satyam sivam sundaram. I have to use adverbs and adjectives because they are part of the language.G. there is a mountain or some extraordinary thing." Yes. There. By the time you realize what is happening. it is automatically registered.G. it [the information about it] automatically comes out without any effort. When you ask some questions. Not that I am a hypocrite or any such thing.] I want to memorize a poem or something -. But the response to the stimulus. That 'beauty' is not an idea. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> U.not an emotion. if I look at anything. I say. If you hit something there. Supposing. "It is a beautiful thing. I don't bother even if I don't happen to remember. In other words. Here is a response to that beauty and that response is a sudden change in your breathing.2005 16:50:40 Uhr .it is very difficult for me to do that. indeed. I can't function in the world. They come out of me in exactly the same way. This is the feeling -.well. not any of those things. there is nobody who is doing that [remembering].:There are no images for me. Nothing of that sort [occurs]. you have moved on from there to something else. [however. That is why I call this a 'movement. I have to accept the reality of the world. So.: No.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. Q: Isn't a response a reaction to something? U. But actually there is nothing beautiful.G. It is a response to something there. I don't move my hands in response to that movement. I really don't know. but really they don't mean anything to me.:The comparative structure is absent here. If there is a demand for that.htm (16 of 18)29. At the same time.

?" I can say that now: this is not in any way related to what I did or did not do. Do more and more of the same and you will reach your destination. This is very difficult to understand.well. Do you hear the barking of the dog out there? You translate it and say that is the barking of a dog. "Why don't you leave at least one ventilator open?" http://www.because I am blocking every escape door. Not a whiff of it. You are barking. there is nothing to understand. without any thought structure.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . There is no separation from you. This is not a logically ascertained premise that I am putting forth." I can't do that. I am not interested in telling you anything at all. There is no translation. But one thing I must say. as a matter of fact. not at the place you think it would occur. "You are doing alright. Because the sadhana is always related to the goal you have fixed to yourself. What I am saying is not born out of thinking.08. take it or leave it. it is not possible for you to understand what I am talking about. You will be better off if you leave it.in fact. These are just words springing forth from their natural source without any thought. then there is no need for you to understand anything. you will find out that all those tremors you have been experiencing during what you call 'sadhana' are totally -. and not the dog out there. You are interested in listening to what I am saying. I emphasize that the experience which you are considering as something extraordinary is totally unrelated to the final thing you are after. This is very difficult to understand. As I was telling yesterday. In that sense.htm (17 of 18)29. But if you are just aware of that.G. the whole business of 'sadhana' collapses. This earthquake hits somewhere else.G.is not responsible for where you are today. *** U.all the sadhana -.are connected to that. it echoes here inside of you. I always give the example of these tremors. These tremors have nothing to do with the earth quake.G. in no way -. Tremors do not mean that one day there will be an earthquake. So.: They come here and tell me about their spiritual experiences. What do they expect? They want me to pat on their back and tell them.com/user/jct/Talk. what is going on here [in this dialogue] is sadhana -. When it is not there. That is why all those doing sadhana ask me that question: "How do you know that what you did -. Somebody said.: You are all occupied. Then you see. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> long as the movement of thought is there. When this thunderbolt hits you.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U. *** U.

They [matter and energy] are interchangeable. you ain't got a chance. It triggers a chain reaction. Only such a man can talk and such a man will never encourage any kind of sadhana. then it is matter. Life is energy. They [the real teachers] are not those who interpret the texts. something has got to happen to that.com/user/jct/Talk.08. That is its nature.htm (18 of 18)29.G.H1>FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U.well. Don't get me wrong. But when thought takes its birth. AFTER HIS CALAMITY/H1> Even that has to be blocked. In the final analysis there is neither matter nor energy. Not that I am placing a carrot before you. Not that I claim that I am the real teacher or any such thing. It is all the time trying to convert itself into energy. The human organism has trillions of atoms. You must be choked to death as it were. Yet the possibility of its happening in everybody is 100%. That is why it happens in one in a billion. "Why does it happen to one individual? Why not me?" If you question in that fashion. because he knows that sadhana is not going to help. Nobody else. And there it explodes. Nobody else should talk about that. It's an electromagnetic field. When one atom explodes. Only a real teacher can tell and point out that. it blasts everything that is there. *** http://www. It is an atomic explosion.2005 16:50:40 Uhr . You can't make this kind of a thing happen at all. If through some luck or strange chance it remains without splitting itself into two. In its very nature it [thought] splits itself into two.