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THE NATURAL STATE


In the Words of U.G. Krishnamurti

Thursday, July 07, 2005

U.G. KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy J. Thayer)

CONTENTS

Introduction Chapter One: 1972-1980 -- India and Switzerland Chapter Two: 1982 -- India, Switzerland and California Chapter Three: 1983-1984 -- Amsterdam Chapter Four: 1985-1990 -- India, Switzerland, Australia, Netherlands and U.K. Chapter Five: 1990 -- Various places Afterword

Introduction Here is the end of seeking, you who are weary of the road This compilation of quotes by U.G. Krishnamurti can alter your life. Someone once said to his daughter who had met U.G., Damned be the day you met this man; your life will never be the same. Whether we feel cursed or blessed, our coming upon the unique life/energy that is U.G. can change our life forever. This book, an anthology of U.G.s conversations, taken from many sources, offers some of the most startling and penetrating of U.G.s words in short, easy to read paragraphs. The selections link together various statements of U.G.s in a way that creates a sense of cohesiveness. The overall effect of the book can stun the reader into a recognition of the futility of many of his deepest-held convictions about life. Even if one is familiar with U.G.s way of seeing things, this book offers a comprehensive overview that provides a useful clarification. If you have newly discovered U.G through this book, be prepared to experience

something so unusual that it cannot be placed in any category of human thought. Dont underestimate the power of his words. Here is an original thinker unlike anyone youve ever come across before. The hundred thousand books of clichd thoughts on spirituality, psychology and self-help available today offer you ways that are congenial to what you already know. U.G. merely offers to shatter what you know and not to replace it with anything, no new technique, or discipline or way. Are you ready to be shattered, to have your beliefs stripped away and then not be given anything new to hang on to? Then read this book. Its not a way beyond all the other ways. Its outside of ways altogether. If you shock easily, this may not be for you. Yet there is love here too, though U.G. would never use the word love. A love that can take away everything you thought you were and leave a yearning for more of this strange alchemy that is U.G. So even if you do shock easily, this may be the very thing for you. U.G. is not a teacher in the usual sense of the word. He is perhaps more of a phenomenon of nature--something outside of what human beings have created. Something happened to him in his 49th year, an acausal release from the dominance of the thought structure that encases human beings. U.G. calls this state he is in the natural state and he functions with great clarity and efficiency in this state. Now in his 80s, U.G. travels around the world visiting friends and talking to people from all walks of life. He does not give you anything to replace your current belief system. But if you see how penetrating his analysis of human belief is, you may be forced to drop many of your most cherished ideas about life. This can free you to some extent, and you may find your life becoming simpler not through any effort of yours but simply because you no longer have to carry the burden of so many belief structures. U.G. is not interested in converting you to a new religion or to any belief system whatsoever. He expresses a unique point of view and tells you to take it or leave it. He is not trying to make you into a better person. In fact, he says that you dont need to change anything and that it is our tragedy that we are constantly trying to change ourselves. Who you are is completely unique, yet you are trying to model yourself after another, usually one of the saints, sages, or saviors of mankind.

In the end, what you are left with after your encounter with U.G.--either through his words or his actual presence--is the feeling that something different has happened to you, but you cant quite say what it is. You feel that somehow your life has changed, but you dont know in what way. There is a kind of energy you feel underneath things, perhaps a slight burning in your heart--youve entered a world that you never knew existed and you will never be the same again. And you cant even say whether this is a curse or blessing, but you know you would never trade your encounter with U.G. for anything in this life--no matter what it cost you. So if you have the guts to allow your whole way of seeing things to be changed, by all means read this book: lifes own energy, freed from thought, is here. Larry Morris Albuquerque, New Mexico April 2004

Chapter One: 1972-1980 -- India and Switzerland Whatever you do in the pursuit of truth or reality takes you away from your own very natural state in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a result of your effort. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express itself. That is why I call this your natural state. You're always in that state. What prevents what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the wrong direction. So all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that consciousness. You may not like the word contamination but all that you consider sacred, holy and profound is a contamination. There's nothing that you can do, it's not in your hands. This is something which I can't give because you have it. It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which you already have. There isn't anything to get from anybody. You have what I have. I say you are there. I was brought up in a very religious atmosphere. My grandfather was a very cultured man. He

had learned men on his payroll and he dedicated himself for some reason to create a profound atmosphere for me and to educate me in the right way, and so every morning those fellows would come and read the scriptures, the commentaries, the whole lot, from four o'clock to six o'clock, and this little boy of five, six or seven years got to listen to all that crap. So many holy men visited my house. You name it. That was an open house for every holy man. And one thing I discovered when I was quite young was that they were all hypocrites. Everybody was false, I can tell you. So somehow, what you call existentialist nausea-revulsion against everything sacred and everything holy--crept into my system and threw everything out. That was the beginning of my search. I did everything, all the austerities. I was so young but I was determined to find out if there was any such thing as enlightenment. I wanted that very much. Otherwise, I wouldn't have given my life. Then my real search began. All my religious background was there in me. Then I started exploring. For some years I studied psychology and also philosophy, Eastern and Western, mysticism, all the modern sciences, everything. The whole area of human knowledge I started exploring on my own. I had so many powers, so many experiences, but I didn't pay any attention to them. The moment I saw someone I could see their entire past, present and future without their telling me anything. I didn't use them. I was wondering, puzzled, you see, Why do I have this power? Sometimes I said things and they always happened. I couldn't figure out the mechanism of that. I tried to. They always happened. I didn't play with it. There was no will. I didn't know what I was doing. By this time the whole thing had gone out of my system. There was no search in me, no seeking after something, but something funny was going on. All kinds of funny things happened to me. I remember when I rubbed my body there was a sparkle like a phosphorous glow. Very strange things happened to me but I never related those things to liberation or freedom because by that time the whole thing had gone out of my system. The whole thing is finished for me and that's all. The linking gets broken and once it is broken it is finished. Then it is not once that thought explodes--every time a thought arises it explodes. The division cannot remain, it's a physical impossibility. You don't have to do a

thing about it. That is why I say that when this explosion takes place (I use the word explosion because it's like a nuclear explosion) it leaves behind chain-reactions. Every cell in your body has to undergo this change. It's an irreversible change. There's no question of your going back. It is like a nuclear explosion. It shatters the whole body. It is not an easy thing. It is the end of the man, such a shattering thing that it blasts every cell, every nerve in your body. I went through terrible physical torture at that moment; not that you experience the explosion--you can't experience the explosion--but its after-effects. The fallout is the thing that changes the whole chemistry of your body. The senses are operating now without any coordinator or center, that's all I can say. Unless that alchemy or change in the whole chemistry takes place, there is no way of freeing this organism from thought, from the continuity of thought. The blinking of the eyes stopped and then there were changes in taste, smell and hearing. I noticed that my skin was soft like silk and had a peculiar kind of glow, a golden color. I no longer spend time in reverie, worry, conceptualization and the other kinds of thinking that most people do when they're alone. My mind is only engaged when it's needed. My memory is in the background and only comes into play when it's needed, automatically. When it's not needed there is no mind here, there is no thought; there is only life. My body had gone away and it has never come back. The points of contact are all that is there for the body. Nothing else is there for me because the seeing is altogether independent of the sense of touch here. I had discovered that all my senses were without any coordination. I felt the life energy drawing to a focal point from different parts of my body. Even now it happens to me. The hands and feet become cold, the body becomes stiff, the heartbeat slows down, the breathing slows down and then there is a gasping for breath. Up to a point you are there. You breathe your last breath, as it were, and then you are finished. What happens after that, nobody knows. How long it lasted I don't know. I can't say anything about that because the experiencer was finished. There was nobody to experience that death at all. So that was the end of it. I got up. The things that had astonished me that week had become permanent fixtures. I call all these events a calamity because from the point of view of one who thinks this is something fantastic, blissful, full of love, ecstasy and all that kind of a

thing, this is physical torture. Not a calamity to me but to those who have an image that something marvelous is going to happen. It's something like you imagine New York. You dream about it. You want to be there. When you are actually there, nothing of it is there. It is a godforsaken place and even the devils have probably forsaken that place. It's not the thing that you had sought after and wanted so much but totally different. What is there you really don't know. You have no way of knowing anything about that. There is no image here. Then suddenly, there was an outburst of tremendous energy shaking the whole body, vibrating. It lasted for hours. I couldn't bear it but there was nothing I could do to stop it. There was a total helplessness. This went on and on, day after day. Whenever I sat, it started--this vibration like an epileptic fit or something. Not even an epileptic fit; it went on for days. It was a very painful process because the body has limitations. It has a form, a shape of its own. So when there is an outburst of energy which is not your energy or my energy but God's (call it by any name you like) it is like a river in spate. The energy that is operating there does not feel the limitations of the body. It is not interested. It has its own momentum. It is a very painful thing. It is not ecstatic, blissful and all that rubbish, stuff and nonsense. It is really a painful thing. Oh I suffered for months before and after that, everybody has--a great cascade; not one but thousands. It went on and on for months. It's a very painful experience, painful in the sense that the energy has a peculiar operation of its own. It is clockwise, counterclockwise, and then it is this way, and then this way, and then this way. Like an atom, it moves inside--not in one part of your body--the whole body. It is as if a wet towel were being wrung to get rid of the water. It is like that--the whole of our body. It's such a painful thing. It goes on even now. You can't invite it. You can't ask it to come. You can't do anything. It gives you the feeling that it is enveloping you, that it is descending on you. Every time it is new. Very strange, every time it comes in a different way. So you don't know what is happening. You lie down on your bed and suddenly it begins. It begins to move slowly like ants. I'd think there were bugs in my bed, jump out, look, see no bugs, then I'd go back,

then again. The hairs are electrified. So it slowly moves. There were pains all over the body. Thought has controlled this body to such an extent that when that loosens, the whole metabolism is agog. The whole thing was changing in its own way without my doing anything. Every cell started changing and it went on and on for six months. In all, it took three years for this body to fall into a new rhythm of its own. I behaved normally. I didn't know what was happening. It was a strange situation. The state is something natural. Do you see the swellings here? Yesterday was the new moon. The body is affected by everything that is happening around you. It is not separate. Whatever is happening there is also happening here. There is only the physical response. This is affection. Your body is affected by everything that is happening around you, and you can't prevent this for the simple reason that the armor that you have built around yourself is destroyed. So it is very vulnerable to everything that is happening there. There are certain glands. These ductless glands are located in exactly the same spots where the Hindus speculated the chakras are. They have feelings, extraordinary feelings. There is one gland here which is called the thymus gland. Doctors tell us that is active through childhood until puberty then becomes dormant. In your natural state that gland is reactivated. [Up and down his torso, neck and head, his friends observed swellings of various shapes and colors which came and went at intervals. On his lower abdomen, the swellings were horizontal, cigar-shaped bands. Above the navel was a hard, almond-shaped swelling. A hard, blue swelling like a large medallion in the middle of his chest was surmounted by another smaller, brownish-red, medallion-shaped swelling at the base of his throat. These were as though suspended from a varicolored, swollen ring--blue, brownish and light yellow--around his neck. His throat was swollen to a shape that made his chin seem to rest on the head of a cobra, as in the traditional images of Shiva. Just above the bridge of the nose was a white, lotus-shaped swelling. All over the head the small blood vessels expanded, forming patterns like the stylized lumps on the heads of Buddha statues. The arteries in his neck expanded and rose, blue and snake-like, into his head.] If somebody hurts himself there that hurt is felt here, not as a pain but there is a feeling, you

see. This actually happened to me when I was staying in a coffee plantation. A mother started beating a child. Then I found all those things on my back. So I was also part of that. I am not saying this just to claim something. That is possible because consciousness cannot be divided. Anything that is happening there is affecting you. If another is hurt there, you also are hurt here. If you are hurt, there is an immediate response there. You are responding, all the glands. There are so many glands here. For example, the pituitary--the third eye, it's called. When once the interference of thought is finished it is taken over by this gland. It is this gland that gives the instructions or orders to the body, not thought anymore, thought cannot interfere. I'm not interpreting or any such thing. Perhaps this gives you an idea. But you have built an armor, created an armor, with this thought and you don't allow yourself to be affected by things. Since there is nobody who uses this thought as a self-protective mechanism it burns itself up. Thought undergoes combustion--ionization, if I may use your scientific term. Thought is, after all, vibration. When this kind of ionization of thought takes place it sometimes covers the whole body with an ash-like substance. Your body is covered with that when there is no need for thought at all. When you don't use it what happens to that thought? It burns itself out. That is the energy. It's a combustion. The body gets heated, you know. There is tremendous heat in the body as a result of this, and so the skin is covered--your face, your feet, everything--with this ash-like substance. That's one of the reasons why I express it in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. It has no psychological content at all. It has no mystical content. It has no religious overtones at all, as I see it. I am bound to say that and I don't care whether you accept it or not. It is of no importance to me. This kind of a thing must have happened to so many people. It is not something that one is specially prepared for. There are no purificatory methods necessary. There is no spiritual practice necessary for this kind of a thing to happen, no preparation of any kind. The consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it. Consciousness has to flush itself out, it has to purge itself of every trace of holiness, every trace of unholiness, everything. Even what you consider

sacred and holy is a contamination in that consciousness. It is not through any volition of yours. When once the frontiers are broken--not through any effort of yours, not through any volition of yours--then the floodgates are open and everything goes out. In that process of flushing out you have all these visions. It's not a vision outside there or inside of you. Suddenly, your whole consciousness takes the shape of those people who have come into this state. Not great men, not the leaders of mankind, it is very strange, but only those people to whom this kind of a thing happened. Hundreds of people, probably something happened to so many hundreds of people. This is part of history--so many rishis, some Westerners, monks, so many women, and sometimes very strange things. You see, all that people have experienced before you is part of your consciousness. They run out of your consciousness because they cannot stay there any more, because all that is impurity, a contamination there. You can say probably it is because of the impact on the human consciousness of the explosions of all those saints, sages and saviors of mankind that there is this dissatisfaction in you, that whatever is there is all the time trying to burst out, as it were. Maybe that is so. I can't say anything about it. You can say that they are there because they are pushing you to this point and once the purpose is achieved they have finished their job and they go away. But this flushing out of everything good and bad, holy and unholy, sacred and profane, has got to happen. Otherwise, your consciousness is still contaminated, still impure. During that time, it goes on and on, there are hundreds and thousands of them. Then, you see, you are put back into that primeval, primordial state of consciousness. Once it has become pure, of and by itself, then nothing can touch it, nothing can contaminate that any more. All the past up to that point is there but it cannot influence your actions any more. All these visions and everything were happening for three years after the calamity. Now the whole thing is finished. The divided state of consciousness cannot function at all any more. It is always in the undivided state of consciousness. Nothing can touch that. Anything can happen. The thought can be a good thought, a bad thought. It doesn't matter what comes there--good, bad, holy, unholy. The whole thing is finished. That is why I have to use the phrase religious experience, not in the sense in which

you use the word religion. It puts you back to the Source. You are back in that primeval, primordial, pure state of consciousness. Call it awareness or whatever you like. In that state, things are happening and there is nobody who is interested, nobody who is looking at them. They come and go in their own way. The most puzzling and bewildering part of the whole thing was when the sensory activities began their independent careers. There was no coordinator linking the senses. Like a baby I had to learn everything all over. All the knowledge was in the background and never came to the forefront, you see. But I knew that something really fantastic had happened inside. What it was I didn't know but that didn't bother me. That bewildering situation continued for a long time. All the knowledge was in the background. It's the same situation even now. When I am looking at something I really don't know what I'm looking at. That is why I say it is a state of not knowing. I really don't know. Once you are there through some luck, some strange chance, from then on everything happens in its own way. You are always in a natural state. There is no question of going in and out of it, you are always there. It is a state of not knowing, you really don't know what you are looking at. I can't do anything about it, there is no question of my going back or anything, it is all finished. It is operating and functioning in a different way. Somehow, you see, by some luck, by some strange chance, this kind of thing happens, and the whole thing is finished for you. The background is the only thing that can express itself. What else is there? My expression of it is the background--how I struggled, my path, how I rejected the paths of others. Up to that point I can say what I did or what I did not do and that it did not help me in any way. If people come and ask me questions I answer. If they don't it makes no difference to me. I have not set myself up in the holy business of liberating people. I have no particular message for mankind except to say that all holy systems for obtaining enlightenment are bunk and that all talk of arriving at a psychological mutation through awareness is poppycock. Psychological mutation is impossible. The natural state can happen only through biological mutation. There is no teaching of mine and never shall be one. A teaching implies a method or a system,

a technique or a new way of thinking to be applied in order to bring about a transformation in your way of life. What I am saying is outside the field of teachability. It is simply a description of the way I am functioning. It is just a description of the natural state of man. This is the way you, stripped of the machinations of thought, are also functioning. The natural state is not the state of a self-realized, God-realized man. It is not a thing to be achieved or attained. It is not a thing to be willed into existence. It is there. It is the living state. This state is just the functional activity of life. By life I do not mean something abstract but the life of the senses functioning naturally without the interference of thought. Thought is an interloper which thrusts itself into the affairs of the senses. It has a profit motive. Thought directs the activity of the senses to get something out of them and uses them to give continuity to itself. Your natural state has no relationship whatsoever with the religious states of bliss and ecstasy. They lie within the field of experience. Those who have led man on his search for religiousness throughout the centuries have perhaps experienced those religious states, so can you. They are thought-induced states of being and as they come so do they go. All are trips in the wrong direction. They are all within the field of time. Timeless can never be experienced, grasped, contained, much less given expression to, by any man. That beaten track will lead you nowhere. There is no oasis situated yonder. You are stuck with the mirage. This state is a physical condition of your being. It is not some kind of psychological mutation. It is not a state of mind into which you can fall one day and out of the next. You can't imagine the extent to which, as you are now, thought pervades and interferes with the functioning of every cell in your body. Coming into your natural state will blast every cell, every gland, every nerve. It is a chemical change. An alchemy of some sort takes place. But this state has nothing to do with the experiences of chemical drugs. Those are experiences, this is not. Does such a thing as enlightenment exist? To me what does exist is a purely physical process. There is nothing mystical or spiritual about it. If I close the eyes some light penetrates through the eyelids. If I cover the eyelids there is still light inside. There seems to be some kind of a hole in the forehead which doesn't show but through which something penetrates. In India that

light is golden, in Europe it is blue. There is also some kind of light penetration through the back of the head. It's as if there is a hole running through between those spots in front and back of the skull. There is nothing inside but this light. If you cover those points there is complete, total darkness. This light doesn't do anything or help the body to function in any way, it's just there. This state is a state of not knowing. You really don't know what you are looking at. All there is inside is wonderment. It is a state of wonder because I just do not know what I am looking at. The knowledge about it, all that I have learned, is held in the background unless there is a demand. When required it comes quickly like an arrow, then I am back in the state of not knowing, of wonder. You can never understand the tremendous peace that is always there within you that is your natural state. Your trying to create a peaceful state of mind is in fact creating disturbance within you. You can only talk of peace, create a state of mind and say to yourself that you are very peaceful, but that is not peace, that is violence. There is no use in practicing peace or reason to cultivate silence. Real silence is explosive. It is not the dead state of mind that spiritual seekers think. That doesn't mean anything at all. This is volcanic in its nature. It's bubbling all the time--the energy, the life--that is its quality. Life is aware of itself, if we can put it that way. It is conscious of itself. When I talk of feeling I do not mean the same thing that you do. Actually, feeling is a physical response, a thud in the thymus. The thymus, one of the endocrine glands, is located under the breast bone. When you come into your natural state, sensations are felt there. You don't translate them as good or bad. They are just a thud. If there is a movement outside of you in your field of vision, that movement is also felt in the thymus. The whole of your being is that movement, or vibrates with that sound. There is no separation. This does not mean that you identify yourself with it. There is no you there, nor is there any object. What causes that sensation you don't know. You do not even know that it is a sensation. Affection (this is not my interpretation of the word) means that you are affected by everything, not that some emotion flows from you towards something. The natural state is a state of great sensitivity, but this is a physical sensitivity of the senses, not some kind of emotional

compassion or tenderness for others. There is compassion only in the sense that there are no others for me and so there is no separation. Actually, there is always a gap between any two sensations. The coordinator bridges that gap, establishes itself as an illusion of continuity. In the natural state, there is no entity coordinating the messages from the different senses, each sense is functioning independently in its own way. When there is a demand from outside which makes it necessary to coordinate the senses and come up with a response, still there is no coordinator but there is a temporary state of coordination. There is no continuity. When the demand has been met, again there is only the uncoordinated, disconnected, disjointed functioning of the senses. This is always the case. Once the continuity is blown apart ,not that it was ever there but the illusory continuity, it's finished once and for all. All that you know lies within the framework of your experience, which is of thought. This state is not an experience. I am only trying to give you a feel of it, which is, unfortunately, misleading. When there is no coordinator, there is no linking of sensations, there is no translating of sensations. They stay pure and simple sensations. I do not even know that they are sensations. I may look at you as you are talking. The eyes will focus on your mouth because that is what is moving and the ears will receive the sound vibrations. There is nothing inside which links up the two and says that it is you talking. What functions is a primordial consciousness untouched by thought. The eyes are like a very sensitive camera. The physiologists say that light reflected off objects strikes the retina of the eye and the sensation goes through the optic nerve to the brain. The faculty of sight, of seeing, is simply a physical phenomenon. It makes no difference to the eyes what they are focused on, they produce sensations in exactly the same way. The eyes look on everyone and everything without discrimination. Left to themselves they do not linger but are moving all the time. They are drawn by the things outside. Movement attracts them, or brightness, or a color which stands out from whatever is around it. There is no self looking. The consciousness is like a mirror reflecting whatever is there outside. The depth, the distance, the color--everything is there, but there is nobody who is translating these things. Unless there is a demand for knowledge about what I am looking at,

there is no separation, no distance from what is there. There is a kind of clarity. The eyes do not blink except when there is sudden danger. This is something very natural because things outside are demanding attention all the time. Then when the eyes are tired they may be open but the vision is blurred. If they stay open all the time, if the reflex action of blinking is not operating, they become dry and there are some glands beyond the outer corners of the eyes, not activated in your case, which act as a watering mechanism. But by practicing not blinking one will not arrive in this state, one will only strain the eyes. Once you are in your natural state, by some luck or some strange chance, all this happens in its own way. When I am walking and suddenly see something different because the light has changed, this consciousness suddenly expands to the size of the object in front of the body and the lungs take a deep breath. This is pranayama, not hyperventilation or inhaling through one nostril and exhaling through the other. This pranayama is going on all the time. So there is consciousness of a sudden change in the breathing and then it moves on to something else. It is always moving. It does not linger on something which thought has decided is beautiful. There is no one directing. As for listening, when you leave the sense of hearing alone all that is there is the vibration of the sound. The words repeat themselves inside of you as in an echo chamber. This sense is functioning in just the same way with you except that you think the words you are hearing come from outside of you. Get this straight--you can never hear one word from anyone no matter how intimately you think you are in relationship with that person. You hear only your own translations always. They are all your words you are hearing. All that the other person's words can possibly be to you is a noise, a vibration picked up by the eardrum and transferred to the nerves which run to the brain. You are translating those vibrations all the time trying to understand because you want to get something out of what you are hearing. When there is no translation, all languages sound the same whether or not your particular knowledge structure speaks a particular language. The only differences are in the spacing of the syllables and in the tune. Languages are melodic in different ways but the appreciation of music, poetry and language is all

culturally determined and is the product of thought. Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as hard, soft, warm, cold, wet, dry and so on. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness, there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it. It is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you. Perhaps I can give you the feel of this. I sleep for four hours at night no matter what time I go to bed then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed. I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side. For hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside, it just echoes in me. I listen to my heartbeat and don't know what it is. There are only the sensations of touch from points of contact and the gravitational pull, nothing inside links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body there are still only the points of contact and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body probably I will succeed but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. My talking comes out in response to the questions which are asked. I cannot sit and give a talk on the natural state. That is an artificial situation for me. There is nobody who is thinking thoughts and then coming out with answers. This state is expressing itself. I really don't know what I'm saying and what I'm saying is of no importance. You may transcribe my own talking but it will make no sense to me. It is a dead thing. What is here, this natural state, is a living thing. It cannot be captured by me, let alone by you. It's like a flower. This simile is all I can give. It just blooms. It's there. As long as it is there it has a fragrance which is different and distinct from that of every other flower. You may not recognize it. It's of no importance. You can't preserve its perfume. Whatever you preserve of this is not the living thing. Preserving the expressions, teachings or words of such a man has no meaning. This state has only contemporary value, contemporary expression.

The natural needs of a human being are basic: food, clothing and shelter. You must either work for them or be given them by somebody. If these are your only needs they are not very difficult to fulfill. To deny yourself the basic needs is not a sign of spirituality. But to require more than food, clothing and shelter is a neurotic state of mind. Is not sex a basic human requirement? Sex is dependent upon thought. In the natural state, there is no build-up of thought. Without that build-up sex is impossible. The body normally is a very peaceful organism and then you subject it to this tremendous tension and release which feels pleasurable to you. Actually, it is painful to the body. But through suppression or attempts at sublimation of sex you will never come into this state. As long as you think of God you will have thoughts of sex. Ask any religious seeker you may know who practices celibacy whether he doesn't dream of women at night. Why do you weave so many taboos and ideas around this? Why do you destroy the joy of sex? Not that I am advocating indulgence or promiscuity but through abstinence and continence you will never achieve a thing. There must be a living contact. There are no images here. There is no room for them. The sensory apparatus is completely occupied with the things I am looking at now. And so, if you are totally tuned in to the sensory activity, there is no room for fears about who will feed you tomorrow or for speculation about God, truth and reality. This is not a state of omniscience wherein all of man's eternal questions are answered, rather a state in which the questioning has stopped. It has stopped because those questions have no relation to the way the organism is functioning, and the way the organism is functioning leaves no room for those questions. The body has an extraordinary mechanism for renewing itself. This is necessary because the senses in the natural state are functioning at the peak of their sensitivity all the time. So when the senses become tired the body goes through death. This is real physical death not some mental state. It can happen one or more times a day. You do not decide to go through this death. It descends upon you. It feels, at first, as if you have been given an anaesthetic. The senses become increasingly dull, the heartbeat slows, the feet and hands become ice cold and the whole body becomes stiff like

a corpse. Energy flows from all over the body towards some point. It happens differently every time. The stream of thoughts continues but there is no reading of the thoughts. At the end of this period you conk out. The stream of thought is cut. There is no way of knowing how long that cut lasts. There is nothing you can say about that time of being conked out. That can never become part of your conscious existence or conscious thinking. You don't know what brings you back from death. If you had any will at that moment you could decide not to come back. When the conking out is over, the stream of thought picks up exactly where it left off. The dullness ends and clarity returns. The body feels very stiff then slowly it begins to move of its own accord, limbering itself up. It is an extraordinary movement. Those who have observed my body moving say it looks like the motions of a newly born baby. This conking out gives a total renewal of the senses, glands and nervous system. After it, they function at the peak of their sensitivity. Life is action. Questioning your actions is destroying the expression of life. A person who lets life act in its own way without the protective movement of thought has no self to defend. What is keeping you from being in your natural state? You are constantly moving away from yourself. You want to be happy either permanently or at least for this moment. You are dissatisfied with your everyday experiences and so you want some new ones. You want to perfect yourself, to change yourself. You are reaching out, trying to be something other than what you are. It is this that is taking you away from yourself. Society has put before you the ideal of a perfect man. No matter in which culture you were born, you have scriptural doctrines and traditions handed down to you to tell you how to behave. You are told that through due practice you can even eventually come into the state attained by the sages and saints, and so you try to control your behavior, to control your thoughts, to be something unnatural. Your effort to control life has created a secondary movement of thought within you which you call the self. This movement of thought within you is parallel to the movement of life but isolated from it. It can never touch life. You are a living creature yet you lead your entire life within the realm

of this isolated, parallel movement of thought. You cut yourself off from life. That is something very unnatural. The natural state is not a thoughtless state. That is one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated for thousands of years. You will never be without thought. Being able to think is necessary to survive but in this state thought stops choking you. It falls into its natural rhythm. This is the crux of the whole problem. The one that is looking at what you call the self is the self. It is creating an illusory division of itself into subject and object, and through this division it is continuing. This is the divisive nature that is operating in you, in your consciousness. Continuity of its existence is all that interests it. As long as you want to understand yourself or to change yourself into something spiritual, into something holy, beautiful or marvelous, you will continue. If you do not want to do anything about it, it is not there. It's gone. Through thinking you cannot understand a thing. You are translating what I am saying in terms of the knowledge you already have just as you translate everything else, because you want to get something out of it. When you stop doing that, what is there is what I am describing. The absence of what you are doing--trying to understand or trying to change yourself--is the state of being that I am describing. Because you are not interested in the everyday things and happenings around you, you have invented the beyond, timelessness, God, truth, reality, enlightenment or whatever, and search for it. There may not be any ultimate truth. You don't know a thing about it. Whatever you know is what you have been told, what you have heard, and you are projecting that information. What you call something is determined by the learning you have about it, and whatever knowledge you have about it is exactly what you will experience. The knowledge creates the experience and the experience then strengthens the knowledge. What you know can never be ultimate reality. In the natural state the movement of self is absent. The absence of this movement probably is the beyond but that can never be experienced by you. It is when the you is not there. The moment you translate, the you is there. You look at something and recognize it. Thought interferes with the sensation by translating. You are either thinking about something which is

totally unrelated to the way the senses are functioning at the moment or else labeling. That is all that is there. The word separates you from what you are looking at, thereby creating the you. Otherwise, there is no space between the two. Every time a thought is born, you are born. When the thought is gone, you are gone. But the you does not let the thought go and what gives continuity to this you is the thinking. Actually, there is no permanent entity in you, no totality of all your thoughts and experiences. You think that there is somebody who is thinking your thoughts, somebody who is feeling your feelings. That's the illusion. I can say it is an illusion but it is not an illusion to you. Your emotions are more complex but it is the same process. There is a sensation in you and you name it. This brings into existence the one who is translating this sensation. Self is nothing but a word. This labeling is only necessary when you must communicate. You think the thoughts of your society, feel the feelings of your society and experience the experiences of your society. There is no new experience. So all that any man has ever thought or felt must go out of your system. And you are the product of all that knowledge. That's all you are. All that you know about what you call thought is what you have been told. You are all the time trying to do something with it because somebody has told you that you must change this or replace that, hold on to the good thoughts and not the bad thoughts. Thoughts are thoughts; they are neither good nor bad. As long as you want to do something with whatever is there you are thinking. Wanting and thinking are not two different things. Wanting to understand means there is a movement of thought. You are adding momentum to that movement, giving it continuity. The senses function unnaturally in you because you want to use them to get something. Why should you get anything? Because you want the self to continue you are protecting that continuity. Thought is a protective mechanism. It protects you at the expense of something or somebody else. If you could be in a state of awareness for a single moment once in your life the continuity would be snapped, the illusion of the experiencing structure, the you, would collapse and everything would fall into the natural rhythm. In this state you do not know what you are

looking at. That is awareness. If you recognize what you are looking at you are there again experiencing the old, what you know. What makes one person come into his natural state and not another person, I don't know. Perhaps it's written in the cells. It is acausal. It is not an act of volition on your part. You can't bring it about. There is absolutely nothing you can do. You can distrust any man who tells you how he got into this state. One thing you can be sure of is that he cannot possibly know himself and cannot possibly communicate it to you. There is a built-in triggering mechanism in the body. If the experiencing structure of thought happens to let go, the other thing will take over in its own way. The functioning of the body will be a totally different functioning without the interference of thought except when it is necessary to communicate with somebody. You have to throw in the towel, be totally helpless. No one can help you and you cannot help yourself. This state is not in your interest. You are only interested in continuity. You want to continue, probably on a different level, and to function in a different dimension, but you want to continue somehow. You wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. This is going to liquidate what you call you, all of you. This structure is born of time and functions in time but does not come to an end through time. You can't understand what I am saying. It is an exercise in futility on your part to try to relate the description of how I am functioning to the way you are functioning. This is a thing which I cannot communicate nor is any communication necessary. No dialogue is possible. When the you is not there, when the question is not there, what is, is understanding. You are finished. You'll walk out. You will never listen to anybody describing his state or ask any questions about understanding at all. What you are looking for does not exist. You would rather tread an enchanted ground with beatific visions of a radical transformation of that non-existent self of yours into a state of being which is conjured up by some bewitching phrases. That takes you away from your natural state. It is a movement away from yourself. To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are blessed with that intelligence. Nobody need give it to you. Nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a natural man.

You see, the animal becomes a flower. That seems to be the purpose if at all there is any purpose in nature. I don't know. There are so many flowers there. Look at them! Each flower is unique in its own way. Nature's purpose seems to be (I cannot make any definitive statement) to create flowers like that, human flowers like that. Man becomes man for the first time, and that is possible only when he frees himself from the burden of the heritage we are talking about, the heritage of man as a whole. Then only does he become an individual. For the first time he becomes an individual. That is the individual I am talking about. That individual will certainly have an impact on human consciousness. Like when you throw a stone in a pool it sets in motion circular waves. Maybe that's the only hope that man has. That's the first time such an individual becomes a man. Otherwise, he is an animal. And he has remained an animal because of heritage, because his heritage has made it possible from the point of view of nature for the unfit to remain, or it would have rejected them a long time ago. It has become possible for the unfit to survive--not the survival of the fittest but of those unfit to survive-- and religion is responsible for that. He's not a perfect man. He's not an ideal man. He cannot be a model for others. He becomes freed from all the animal traits in him. Animals follow. Animals create leaders. And the animal traits are still persisting there in man. That is why he creates a leader and follows. You become yourself. You see, the shock that your dependence on the entire heritage of mankind has been wrong, that realization dawns on you. It hits you like lightning that your dependence on this culture, be it Oriental or Occidental, has been responsible for this situation in you. That applies to the whole as well because the nation is the extension of the individual and the world is the extension of the different nations. So you are freed from the burden of the past and become for the first time an individual. There is no relationship between these two flowers at all so there is no point in comparing and contrasting the unique flowers that nature has thrown up from time to time. They in their own ways have had their impact. Each flower has its own fragrance. If it had not been for the heritage of man which we are so proud of we would have had so many flowers like this. It's not that I am interpreting or understanding nature's ways, the

purpose of evolution or any such thing. There may not be any such thing as evolution at all. If it had not been for culture, nature would have thrown up many more flowers. It has become a stumbling block to man's freeing himself in his own way. What is responsible for his difficulty is culture. It is of no use to the society at all but it is there. If it had not been for culture the world would have produced more flowers, different kinds and varieties of flowers, not only the one rose that you are so proud of. You want to turn everything into one model. What for? Whereas, nature would have thrown up from time to time different flowers unique each in its own way, beautiful each in its own way. That possibility has been destroyed by this culture which has a stranglehold on man, which prevents him from freeing himself from the burden of the entire past. One ceases to be somebody else and is simply what one is. This shock, this lightning, hitting with the greatest force, shatters everything, blasts every cell and gland in the body. The whole chemistry seems to change. There's nothing to certify that but I'm not interested in satisfying anyone's curiosity because I am not selling this. I am not collecting followers and teaching them how to bring about this change. It's something which you cannot bring about through any volition or effort of yours. It just happens. I say it is acausal. What its purpose is I really don't know but it is something, you see. The whole chemistry of the body changes so it begins to function in its own natural way. That means everything that is poisoned and contaminated by the culture is thrown out of the system. It is thrown out of your system and then that consciousness or life or whatever you want to call it expresses itself and functions in a very natural way. The whole thing has to be thrown out of your system. This individual is neither a theist nor an atheist nor an agnostic. He is what he is. The movement that has been created by the heritage of man which is trying to make you into something different from what you are comes to an end and what you are begins to express itself in its own way, unhindered, un-handicapped, unburdened by the past of mankind as a whole. Such a man is of no use to the society. On the contrary, he becomes a threat. He doesn't think that he is chosen, chosen by some power to reform the world. He doesn't think that he is a savior or a free or enlightened man. And the moment followers fit him into the tradition,

there arises a need for somebody else to break away from that tradition, that is all. Whatever I say stands or falls by itself. It doesn't need the support of any authority of any kind. That is why such a man is a threat to the society. He's a threat to the tradition because he's undermining the whole foundation of the heritage. My talking to people is incidental. I mean it. Otherwise, I would get up on a platform. What is the point in getting up on a platform? I am not interested. I have no message to give. It's not in anybody's hands but you have a hundred per cent certainty because it is not that it is my special privilege or that I'm specially chosen by anything. It's there in you. That's what I mean by saying there's no power outside of man. It is the same power, the same life, that is functioning there in you. Something is trying to express itself and the culture is pushing it down. When once it throws the culture out then it expresses itself in its own way. That is the fragrance of this flower. Such an individual cannot retire into a cave or hide himself. He has to live in the midst of the world. He has no place to go to. That is the fragrance of this flower. When you stop trying to understand what this flower is and what this perfume is which you have never known, there is another flower, not a copy of that flower. The moment you stop trying to compare this, trying to understand and even imagine what this flower is, what its fragrance is, there is a new flower there which has no relationship whatsoever with all the flowers that we have around us. When this thing happened to me I realized that all my search was in the wrong direction and that this is not something religious, not something psychological, but a purely physiological functioning of the senses at their peak capacities. You want to know what my state is and make it part of knowledge, i.e. the tradition, but knowledge must come to an end. Your wanting to know only adds momentum to your knowledge. It is not possible to know what this is because knowledge is still there and is gathering momentum. The continuity of knowledge is all you are interested in. I want to make it very clear that there is no movement. You are not going to move from what you are. You haven't even taken one step. There is no need for you to take any step. This consciousness which is functioning in me, in you, is the same. In me it has no frontiers. In you there are frontiers. You are enclosed in that.

Probably, this unlimited consciousness pushes you, I don't know. Not me, I have nothing to do with it. It is like the water finding its own level, that's all. That is its nature. That is what is happening in you. Life is trying to destroy the enclosing thing, that dead structure of thought and experience which is not of its nature. It's trying to come out, to break open. You don't want that. As soon as you see some cracks there you bring some plaster and fill them in and block it again. It doesn't have to be a person that pushes you. Anything teaches you just the same if only you let it. You will never know what life is. Nobody can say anything about life. You can give definitions but those definitions have no meaning. You can theorize about life but that is a thing which is not of any value to you. It cannot help you to understand anything. When the question burns itself out what is there is energy. You can't say anything about that energy. It is already manifesting itself, expressing itself in a boundless way. It has no limitations, no boundaries. It is not yours, not mine. It belongs to everybody. You are part of that. You are an expression of that. Just as the flower is an expression of life, you are another expression of life. You are not different from the animal. You don't want to accept that fact. The only difference is that you think. Thinking is there in the animal also but it has become very complex in the case of man. That's the difference. Don't tell me that animals do not think. They do. But in man it has become a very complex structure and the problem is how to free yourself from this structure and use it only as an instrument to function in this world. It has no other use at all. It has only a contingent value--to communicate something, to function in the world--that's all, not philosophical concepts. That has no meaning at all. Wanting anything other than the basic needs is self-deception. All this thinking has no meaning at all. Thinking is unnecessary except to communicate with somebody. Everyone is talking to themself. It is wearing you out and all methods that we use are adding more and more to that, unfortunately. All techniques and systems are adding to that. There is nothing you can do to end thinking. You see, you have to come to a point where you say to yourself, I am fed up with this kind of thing. Nobody can push you there.

Thought is there when there is a demand for it. When there is no demand for it you don't know whether it is there or not. But when there is a need for it, when there is a demand for it, it is there to guide you and to help you communicate with someone. What decides that demand is not here it is out there. The situation demands its use. It is not self-initiated. You have no way at all of finding out for yourself the seat of human consciousness because it is all over and you are not separate from that consciousness. For some reason or the other the culture has limited the possibility of the potential evolving into its completeness and wholeness. Somewhere along the line possibly thought was necessary but it has become the enemy of man now. It has become the enemy of man because the potential of the evolutionary process is thwarted by the culture's creation of a perfect man, a religious man, a gentleman and so on, that is quite the opposite of what is inherent here. Every human being has a unique personality of his own which is trying to express itself. The culture has created what is called a normal man. You see, character building is in the interests of the continuity of the society. The character building mechanism has suppressed and thwarted what is there inside. It is in this sense that I use the word personality. There is nobody like you anywhere in this world among the six billion people we have. Physiologically speaking, the individual is an extraordinary piece of creation by the evolutionary process. So I say that every individual is unique. Whatever is there is trying to express itself and blossom into a human being. The human being has lost all of the animal instincts and he has not developed the human instincts. What these people talk of--psychic powers, clairvoyance--they are all human instincts. And they are necessary because there are two things that the human organism is interested in. One: its survival at any cost. That is one of the most important things. It has a survival mechanism of its own which is quite different from the survival mechanism of the movement of thought. The second thing is to reproduce itself. It has to reproduce. These are the two fundamental characteristics of the human organism, the living organism. The culture has made it impossible for the personality to express itself in its own way because the culture has different ideas. It has created a neurotic state. It has created this divisive

movement of thought. This divisive movement has got to come to an end if whatever is there is to express itself and come into flower. That possibility is part of the human mechanism. It is built-in there. The problem is that anything you do--any movement in any direction on any level--gives continuity to the structure of thought. The separation between mind and body must come to an end. Actually, there is no separation. I have no objection to the word mind but it is not in one particular location or area. Every cell in your system has a mind of its own and its functioning or working is quite different from that of the other cells. So the whole chemistry of the body has to change. It has to undergo a sort of alchemy, if I may put it that way. Fortunately, there are certain areas in the human organism which are outside the control of thought. This is what I have discovered for myself. They are the glands, what you call the ductless glands. The day you control them that's the end of man. He will lose everything. He will become just a nut and bolt in the social structure. What little freedom he can have, what little opportunity there is for this personality to express itself, will be lost. These glands are outside the control of thought. A tremendous amount of money is being spent and a lot of research is going on to find out why they are there, what the function of those glands is--the pituitary gland, the pineal gland, the thymus gland and so forth. Unless they are activated, any chance of human beings flowering into themselves is lost. I can't say there is any such thing as an evolutionary process but there seems to be. What its nature is, what its purpose is, I do not know, but it seems to be trying to create something. Man remains incomplete unless the whole of this human organism blooms into something, like a flower. Society is there inside, not outside. Culture is part of human consciousness and everything that any predecessor has experienced is part of that. Not that there is an entity which reincarnates. There is no entity there. So the whole business of reincarnation is absurd as far as I am concerned. That is why in your dreams you dream as if you are flying like a bird. Likewise,

the sex fantasies man has, the animal postures, The Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana--all that is part of that consciousness which is transmitted from generation to generation. The genetic is only part of it. Consciousness is a very powerful factor in experiencing things but it is not possible for anybody to find out the content of the whole thing. It is too vast. The day the endocrine glands are controlled it will change the personality of man. If nature had been allowed to go on in its own way everybody would have become a unique flower. The possibility is there of a change taking place which is not progressive. It has to happen in a very sudden and explosive way to break the whole thing. This has no social, religious or mystical content. Maybe it affects the whole of human consciousness. It is bound to. There is only one mind, one consciousness. Whatever happens here is bound to affect. You see, there is a constant battle going on here between what is here trying to express itself in its own way and the culture preventing it. But you can't do a thing through volition. It has to happen. That is why I say it is acausal. It seems to have happened to some people during the course of history. Each one has given expression to that uniqueness in their own way according to their background. It is an expression of that background. Nature, in its own way, throws out from time to time some flower, but this end product of human evolution cannot be used by this evolutionary process as a model to create another one. If it throws out one flower, that is it, you see. You can't preserve it. You can't preserve the perfume of that because if you preserve it, it will stink. The evolutionary process or movement is not interested in using the one that it has perfected as a model for further creation. It has a creation of its own. The one question that this organism is interested in is, How to throw off the whole thralldom, the whole strangling influence of culture? That question is the only question this organism has, not in words, not as a thought--the whole human organism is that one question. I don't know whether I make myself clear. That is the one question, you see, which is throbbing, pulsating, in every cell, in the very marrow of your bones, trying to free itself from this stranglehold. That is the one question, the one thought. That is the savior. For that question there is no way of finding an answer. With that question it is impossible for one to do anything. So it explodes. When there is no way to move with it, no space, the

explosion takes place. That is like a nuclear explosion. It breaks the continuity of thought. Actually, there is no continuity of thought because thoughts are disconnected, disjointed things. But something is linking them up--what you call the self or the center, which is illusory. I can say it is illusory because it is only the knowledge you have about that which creates the identity. All the talk of self-knowledge or self-knowing has no meaning to me. It is within the framework of knowledge. It is playing tricks with itself. So this continuity comes to an end and thought falls into its natural rhythm. Then it can't link up. The linking gets broken and once it is broken it is finished. Then it is not once that thought explodes--every time that a thought arises it explodes. It is like a nuclear explosion, you see, and it shatters the whole body. It is not an easy thing. It is the end of the man, such a shattering thing that it will blast every cell, every nerve in your body. I went through terrible physical torture at that moment. Not that you experience the explosion--you can't experience the explosion--but its after-effect, the fallout, changes the whole chemistry of your body. Then thought cannot link up any more. The constant demand for experiencing things comes to an end. This is purely and simply a machine functioning automatically. The mechanism is functioning in an automatic way but with an extraordinary intelligence that is there. It knows what is good for it. There is an tremendous intelligence which is guiding the mechanism of the human body and its interest is protection, to protect its survival. Then the senses become very important factors. They begin to function at their peak capacity without the interference of thought except when there is a demand for it. Thought is not self-initiated. It always comes into operation on demand. It depends upon the demands of the situation. There is a situation where thought is necessary and so it is there. Thought is only for the purposes of communication. Otherwise, it has no value at all. Then you are guided by your senses and not by your thoughts any more. All this talk of controlling the senses is tommyrot, absolute rubbish. The senses have a built-in mechanism of control. It is not something to be acquired. You can try to control, say, the sense of taste, but in this state you don't have to discipline or control yourself. This physical or human organism or whatever you want to call it is guided by sensory activity alone and not by thinking, not by mind at all.

I tell you, you are not an ordinary being. You are an extraordinary being. There is no one like you. The ideal of the perfection that has been placed before us has put the whole thing on the wrong track. The perfect being doesn't exist at all. Questioning my actions before and after is over for me. The moral questions about words or actions are no longer there. I have no regrets, no apologies. Whatever I am doing is automatic. In a given situation I am not capable of acting in any other way. I don't have to rationalize, think logically, nothing. That is the one and only action in that particular situation. Next time the action will be different. There are new factors. You may see it as inconsistency or contradiction. I cannot act in any other way. There's no connection between the two actions. It is physical, not psychological. I don't remember anything that is not happening at that particular moment. There is no reaction, only response. But you are reacting all the time. There is the judgement for or against, This is right, that is wrong. The response I am talking about is the physical response to the situation. I function in the physical plane all the time. I am not thinking of anything when I see you. If I turn this side you are wiped out, you are finished for me. There is no mind. If necessary it is recalled, if you ask questions. Reaction is thinking about it--right, wrong, good, evil. Response is just looking without the intervention of thought. Reaction is mental. Response is physical. You are all the time reacting. You are not physically responding to the things out there. The physical organism knows what to do in a particular situation. So you don't have to think about it. There is no preparation. If there is a snake you step back. It is finished. You don't think about it. Physiological protection is all that this physical organism is interested in, nothing else. The structure which is always thinking of every possible situation, envisaging how to be prepared to deal with each and every kind of situation that might arise during the course of your life, is a thing that has no meaning because every situation is quite different. Life guides you. I don't want to use the word life because that mystifies the whole thing. This organism is interested in protecting itself and it knows how to survive. When I go for a walk I tell friends, Please, for goodness sake, look, don't think. You don't have to think. Just use

your eyes and your ears and they will guide you. The vision becomes extraordinarily clear. The listening mechanism becomes extremely sensitive, that is all. The senses are not deprived of their activity here, they have a field day. They go where they want, think what they want, anything that comes. There is no good thought, no bad thought, no sensual thought, no spiritual thought. All thoughts are the same. You may ask, How can such a man have a sensual thought? There is nothing he can do to suppress that thought or to give room for that thought to act. This is a reality, a fact. But when these thoughts try to take root there everything in you tightens. You don't have to do a thing. The thoughts cannot stay there. There is no continuity, no build-up. One knows what it is and there it ends. Something else comes up. But it doesn't end there for you. You say, How can I have these sensual thoughts? You think you are not free if you have sensual thoughts but if you don't have them you can be certain that you are not a living human being. Saint or sinner, one must respond to every stimulus. You must respond. If there is a woman, there must be a physical response to that. Otherwise, you are a corpse. But here there is no continuity, no build-up. Something else comes up. Thoughts come and go, most of the time you don't even know that they are there. They cannot stay. They are moving. When you recognize there's trouble, fine, it cannot stay there for long. It is pushed out by the next thing. Before you realize what is happening it is gone. When you try to look at it, it is not there. What you are looking at is completely different from what was there before. You don't have to do a thing. This man is not a stone. He is affected by everything that is happening there. Nor does he bother to create an armor. The religious man has built an armor around himself. Here the cumulative process has come to an end. The only action is physical action, only on that level. The senses are running like wild horses. There is nobody who is controlling them. They run here, there and everywhere as the situation demands. This action is the movement of life, the real movement of life, and it has no direction. If you accept the helplessness the problem is solved. That is why I say there is no freedom of action for you. It's not a fatalistic philosophy I am talking about but preventing the past from

interfering with and coloring the present. All this talk of sublimation of sex energy is bunkum. I make emphatic statements because it is something I have experimented with before and I know what it is. By conserving sex energy you are not going to improve yourself in any way. It is too silly and too absurd. Why has so much stress been laid on that? Abstinence, continence, celibacy, is not going to help to put you in this state, in this situation. You can have sex today and this kind of thing can happen to you tomorrow. And this can happen even through sex. If there is a moment there where there is nobody who is experiencing anything--that is the moment when this kind of a thing can happen. It doesn't have to be the discourse of a religious man. Anything that is happening can do the trick because if you don't translate anything that will take care of it. There is no such thing as sublimation, nothing going up there. It is only going out. But these holy men won't accept it. If they were honest enough they would know what they are saying. Sex is unfortunately separated from other activities. Why I have always wondered. It is one. It can't be separated. Why have they put it on a different level? It is that that has created the problem. Religion is responsible for that. It has created that for us. The questioning of our actions is really the moral problem. We must have new moral codes of conduct. That is necessary, otherwise we can't function. That is the trouble now. The old codes are all out of date, anachronistic, finished. Who cares about sex? Sex is so easy now. The extraordinary man, as opposed to your ordinary man, has to live here in this society. He cannot run away and live in a cave and meditate. There is no conflict with this society at all. Although it is so unreal I function in the world accepting the reality accepted by everybody. It is very important. I can't sit in a cave. This is the only reality for such a man. The ultimate reality is bosh and nonsense. It doesn't exist. It's a myth. As long as you are feeling the feelings of society you are part of that society. Because you have no such thing as your own thoughts, your own experiences or your own feelings, you can't run away from this society. You are not separate from the society. You are the society. You are part of this world. You are affected by it. You are not involved but you are affected. There is a difference between getting

involved and allowing yourself to be affected. All the windows are open. It doesn't matter, this or that, anything can come. We have very strange ideas in the religious field, all kinds of funny things. You are escaping from yourself. What you do or do not do does not matter at all--your practice of holiness, your practice of virtue. That is socially valuable for the society but that has nothing to do with this. The moral codes of conduct have no relationship whatsoever to this. Not that this man is immoral. He cannot be immoral. It is impossible for him, you see. His behavior patterns probably to some extent fall within the framework of the moral and religious code but he's a danger. What I am saying is a threat to you as you know yourself and as you experience yourself. My point is this; that not because of love but because of the terror of liquidating ourselves we will learn to live together. You cannot hurt anybody without hurting yourself, not psychologically but physically. Only when we realize this will we learn to live together. As long as each individual seeks his own security, there can be no overall security. We are talking of peace in international terms but it has to percolate down to the level of individual relationships. Only terror will make us live together in peace whether we like it or not. You can take a revolver and make the world's strongest, most powerful man dance for you. It is a fact. This is going to survive somehow. You are not going to let the whole thing blow up. Man has survived for so long and now we are all of a sudden talking about values and all that kind of stuff. What for? It has not helped us to live in harmony. We have created this moral problem, you see. Plants and animals don't have a religious problem. Man has created this religious problem. You see, this has absolutely no social content at all and I can't think of any collective action. So this individual is just like something thrown out by nature and whether anybody recognizes him or not is of no importance. This man cannot be of any use to this society. I don't have the missionary zeal in me or any desire to save mankind. I am not in the holy business. I sing my own song. If somebody comes I talk. If nobody comes

I go for a walk or look at the birds, look at the trees. So many things are happening. But I don't go out and sit on a platform and talk. I am not cut out for that kind of a thing. I am a simple man. I don't want to complicate things unnecessarily. You see, my position is very simple. I'm always available. I have no private life which I can call my own. Anybody can come at any time. I just see them and say, Good morning, what can I do for you? That's all I can do. I have nothing to give, that's all. Knowledge is not something mysterious or mystical. You know that you are happy and you have theories about things. This is the knowledge we are talking about. You introduce another knowledge; spiritual knowledge. But spiritual knowledge, sensual knowledge--what is the difference? We give the names to them. Fantasies about God are acceptable but fantasies about sex are called sensual, physical. There is no difference between the two. One is socially acceptable, the other is not. You are limiting knowledge to a particular area of experience so then it becomes sensual and the other becomes spiritual. Everything is sensual to me. The knowledge that is essential for the living organism--all of that is necessary. But all those speculations about God, truth, reality, have no meaning at all. They are all cultural values. They are totally unrelated to the survival of the living organism. They are all socially, arbitrarily fixed, religious values. All our tastes are cultivated tastes. Likes and dislikes are all cultivated. There is no such thing as absolute morality. By morality I mean questioning your actions before and after. It is all social. For the smooth running of society these codes are necessary. These religious people have created a policeman inside you. Certain actions are termed good and certain other actions are termed bad either before or after you do them. That hasn't helped you in any way. It is thinking that has created the problem. Man's problem is basically the moral dilemma-questioning your actions before and after. It has become a neurological problem, not a religious problem. Even God is a neurological problem. God is the jumbled spelling of dog but the whole of your being is reacting to the word God. All your beliefs, they are not just psychological, they are neurological. You don't know what

is good. You know only what is good for you. That's all you are interested in. Everything centers around that; all your art and reason centers around that. I am not being cynical. That's a fact, nothing wrong with it. I'm not saying anything against it. The situations change but it is that which is guiding you through all situations. I'm not saying it is wrong, you see. If it is not so something must be wrong with you. As long as you are operating in the field of what they call the pair of opposites, good and bad, you will always be choosy in every situation. That is all, you cannot help that. A moral man is a chicken. A moral man is a frightened man, a chicken-hearted man. That is why he practices morality and sits in judgement over others. And his righteous indignation! A truly moral man will never talk of morality or sit in judgement on the morals of others; never. Man is always selfish and he will remain selfish as long as he practices selflessness as a virtue. The basic pleasures you are indulging in I am not against at all. Whatever you do I am not against at all. There is restlessness because you have an ideal way of doing things, a perfect way of doing things. You think that there is something more interesting than what you are doing. If that is knocked off, what you are doing becomes very interesting. You have been told that you should practice desirelessness but that is falsifying you. Desire is there. Desire as such can't be wrong, can't be false, because it is there. Anger as such can't be false because anger is there. You are talking of some energy which those people have defined as God or God-knows-what. Don't you see that it is the very thinking that has turned this into a problem? Anger is energy. Desire is energy. All the energy you want is already in operation there. What the hell do you want energy for? You are destroying this energy through thinking. It is only thinking that has created the problem. Without thinking there is no problem. What I'm saying is that through thinking you cannot solve the problem. Thinking can only create problems. You hope that you will be able to resolve the problem of desire through thinking because of the models of saints who you think have controlled or eliminated desire. If that man has no desire, as you imagine, he is a corpse. Don't believe that man at all! Such a man builds some organization and lives in luxury which you pay for. You are maintaining him. He is doing it for his livelihood. There are always fools in the world who fall for it.

Once in a while he allows you to prostrate before him. You will be surprised if you live with him. You will get the shock of your life if you see him there. That is why they are all aloof, because they are afraid you will catch them some time or the other. The rich man is always afraid that you will touch him for money; so too the religious man. He never comes in contact with you. Seeing him is far more difficult than seeing the president of your country. That is a lot easier than seeing a holy man. He is not what he says he is, what he claims he is. But those men who have made it, they live amongst the people. You can see them always there. You will never know the truth because it's a movement. You cannot contain it. You cannot express it. It's not a logically ascertained premise. It has to be your discovery. What good is my experience? We have thousands of experiences recorded. They haven't helped you. It's the hope that keeps you going because hope is the structure. So-called self-realization is the discovery for yourself and by yourself that there is no self to discover. That will be a very shocking thing, I tell you. It's not going to be an easy thing. It's not going to be handed over to you on a gold platter. You have to become completely disillusioned then the truth begins to express itself in its own way. It is useless to try to discover the truth. The search for truth is absurd. You cannot communicate what you cannot experience. I don't want to use those words because inexpressible and incommunicable imply that there is something which cannot be communicated, which cannot be expressed. There is an assumption that there is something there which cannot be expressed, which cannot be communicated. There is nothing there. I don't want to say there is nothing there because you will catch me; you will call it emptiness, void and all that sort of thing. I can only put it this way--whatever is there cannot be experienced. Whether there is anything there I don't know. I have no way of knowing it at all. Even assuming for a moment that you are an enlightened man, you have no way of knowing anything about it. It can never become a part of your knowledge. This has understood that it is not possible to experience anything any more. I don't know if I quite make myself clear. The individuality, the isolation, the separation or whatever you want to call it is not there anymore. What separates you, what isolates you, is thought. It creates frontiers, boundaries. Once that is

not there you are boundless, limitless; not that you can experience that boundlessness and limitlessness of your consciousness. The content of your consciousness is so immense that you can't say anything about it. That is why I say it's a state of not knowing. You really don't know. But how do you know that you do not know? It's not that you say to yourself that you do not know but in relation to the ordinary state of consciousness you have no way of knowing that at all; nobody has any way. There is not even an attempt on your part to grasp something. You don't accumulate experiences. If you want to experience one thing, the whole series of mysteries are there knocking on your door. This is not an experience at all. You are interested in experiencing the ultimate reality-truth, God, God-knows-what--but it's futile for you to attempt to experience a thing which you cannot experience. It doesn't mean that it is beyond the experiencing structure. Rather, the experiencing structure comes to an end. If you don't recognize what you are looking at it means you are not there. What are you? You are nothing but a bundle of all these experiences, the knowledge you have about them. I see and I don't know what I'm looking at. My sensory perceptions are at their peak capacity but there is nothing inside of me which labels. The knowledge I have about things is in the background. It is not operating. In a way the whole of life is like a great big dream. I am looking at you but I really don't know anything about you. This is a dream, a dream world. There is no reality to it at all. When the experiencing structure is not manipulating consciousness or whatever you want to call it then the whole of life is a great big dream from the experiential point of view; not from this point of view here but from your point of view. You see, you give reality to things--not only to objects but also to feelings and experiences-and think that they are real. When you don't translate them in terms of your accumulated knowledge, they are not things. You really don't know what they are. To you, in relation to the reality you give to things, you would call this state of not knowing a dream. Here there is no such thing as reality any more, let alone the ultimate reality. I function in the world as if I accept the reality of everything the way you accept it. It's like water flowing.

When there is an obstacle to the water then there is an action there, either it overflows or it takes a diversion, but here and now when I begin to walk in that direction there is no question of an obstruction or anything there. Look here--there is no present to the structure of the you. All that is there is the past which is trying to project itself into the future. You can think about past, present and future but there is no future, there is no present, there is only the past. Your future is only a projection of the past. If there is a present, that present can never be experienced by you because you experience only your knowledge about the present and that knowledge is the past. So what is the point in trying to experience that moment which you call now? The now can never be experienced by you. Whatever you experience is not the now. So the now is a thing which can never become part of your conscious existence and which you cannot give expression to. The now does not exist as far as you are concerned except as a concept. What you experience is only the knowledge you have about it, and the knowledge has come from some outside agency always. It is somebody else's, not yours. Somebody else will come along and take it away. A more persuasive man comes along and says, That's not the way to experience, there's another way, and so on. As I see it, there is no preparation for it--no yoga, no prayers, no meditation. Probably, you will experience anything you want. Thought is something extraordinary. You have to go through all these experiences. Sometimes out of nowhere something like an experience too extraordinary to have happened to you or anybody ever before is there, but that did not come out of nowhere. It is part of the knowledge of consciousness. All that man has experienced before you is part of consciousness. It is all there. All that is a contamination; anything you experience, however profound it may be, is a contamination. It has nothing to do with this state. Somebody has experienced that before. Anything you experience there is a worthless thing, it is not that. Whatever is experienced is thought-induced. Without knowledge you can't experience and experience strengthens the knowledge. It is a vicious circle--the dog chasing its own tail. Expansion of consciousness is nothing, but you give so much importance to that. Drugs will

make it a lot easier than all these meditations and yogas. There is a sudden blow-up of consciousness and this sudden expansion releases tremendous energy there inside of you. What is the effect of that on the physical body? The physical body responds to what you call the sudden expansion of consciousness. The only way the physical body can respond to that sudden expansion of consciousness is by taking a sudden breath. Suddenly you take a breath and the whole breathing pattern changes. It's breathtaking. You experience such things all the time. There is nothing to these experiences. None of these experiences mean anything. The realization dawns on you that those experiences, however profound they may be, aren't worth anything, that's all. You may be in a blissful state; even after that calamity you have blissful states, ecstatic states, a sudden melting away of everything that is there. It doesn't mean anything. You experience, I experience--what is the difference? In India, holy people experience some petty little thing called a blissful state or the absence of body consciousness and they think something marvelous is happening. All those things are limitations. They are limiting consciousness. They are not in any way helping. But to you probably they are of great interest because man is functioning all the time in that limited consciousness. All those religious experiences are no different from the experiences people have when they take drugs. You cannot experience anything which you can call your own. Whatever you experience, however profound that experience may be, is the result of the knowledge that is part of your consciousness. Somebody must have, somewhere along the line, experienced bliss, ecstasy-call it by whatever name you like--and that experience is part of your consciousness. You have to come to a point where you see that there is no such thing as a new experience at all. The mystic who experiences what the sages have talked about is still in the field of duality, whereas the sages or seers are functioning in the undivided state of consciousness. The mystic experience is an extraordinary one because it is not an intellectual experience. It helps them to look at things differently, to feel differently, to experience things differently and to interpret the statements of the sages and seers for others. Had it not been for the mystics, the sages would have been clean forgotten long ago. The sages don't depend upon any authority. What they say is the authority. This the sages talked about but the mystics just had

experiences. They tried to share that through music and all kinds of things but this is not an experience which can be shared with somebody else. This is not an experience at all. The mystics are trying to tell you, so they are always in the field of duality, whereas the sage, or seer, or whatever you want to call him, is in the state of undivided consciousness. He does not know that he is a free man so for him there is no question of trying to free others. He is just there. He talks about it and then he goes. Gaudapada had no disciples. He refused to teach anybody. Ramana Maharshi taught nobody, initiated nobody. Great teachers never use any authority and they do not interpret anyone. The mystics help you to look at things differently, to interpret things differently. You cannot become a sage through any effort. It is not in you hands. A sage cannot have a disciple. A sage cannot have a follower because it is not an experience that can be shared. Even an ordinary experience you can't share with others. Can you tell somebody who has never experienced sex what the sex experience is like? The sages and seers are original and unique because they have freed themselves from the entire past. Even the mystic experience is part of the past. Not that the past goes for such a man but for him the past has no emotional content. It is not continually operative, coloring the actions. This is the ultimate. You have to totally surrender yourself. It is not surrender in the ordinary sense of the word. It means there isn't anything you can do. That is total surrender, total helplessness. It can't be brought about through any effort or volition of yours. If you want to surrender to something it's only to get something. That's why I call it a state of total surrender. It's a state of surrender where all effort has come to an end, where all movement in the direction of getting something has come to an end. All wanting is totally absent. Even the hope must go that some miracle will happen and it will descend upon you from somewhere. All those to whom this kind of thing has happened have really worked hard, touched rock-bottom, staked everything. It does not come easily. It is not handed over to you on a gold platter by somebody. It is a very simple thing, so simple that the complex structure does not want to leave it alone. You seem to know. You imagine. Imagination must come to an end. I don't know how to put it. The absence of imagination, the absence of will, the absence of effort, the absence of all movement in any direction, on any

level, in any dimension--that is the thing. You are interested in experiencing bliss, love, God-knows-what, but that is a worthless thing. If I experience bliss, is that bliss? It is created by the knowledge I have; it is the knowledge. To be free from knowledge is not an easy thing. You are that knowledge--not only the knowledge that you have acquired in this life but the knowledge of millions of years of everybody's experiences. People have some experiences, you see, and on that they build a tremendous superstructure. The thing is so simple that the complex structure does not want to leave it alone. I don't like the articles written about me. You are trying to present me as a religious man which I am not. You are failing to comprehend the most important thing that I am emphasizing. These articles don't give any idea of what I am expressing. There is no religious content--there are no mystical overtones at all--in what I am saying. Man has to be saved from the saviors of mankind! The religious people, they kidded themselves and fooled the whole of mankind. Throw them out! That is real courage. Courage is to brush aside everything that man has experienced and felt before you. You are the only one greater than all those things. Everything is finished. The whole tradition is finished, however sacred and holy it may be. Then only can you be yourself. That is individuality. For the first time you become an individual. As long as you depend upon somebody, some authority, you are not an individual. Individual uniqueness cannot express itself as long as there is dependence. You don't have to depend upon any authority; it has an authority of its own. You will never interpret anything. You will never rely on any authority. The problem is that even if such a person doesn't talk his very presence becomes a model for somebody. The fact that somebody sits here from morning till evening--what can I do about it? Sometimes they go into trances. They say, How can you deny what is happening to me? And I say, You may do what you like. How can I convince you that I have nothing more than you have? I don't have anything that you don't have. Your wanting something from somebody is the cause of your misery. The end of illusion is the end of you, so you can't be without illusion. You can only replace one illusion with another. It is very difficult to make you understand the absurdity of the whole search.

I am blocking every escape. Each outlet has to be blocked to put you in a corner. You must be choked to death, as it were. Only a real teacher can find that out and tell you, nobody else. Not those people who interpret the texts; all that is totally unrelated. Only such a man can talk. And such a man never encourages you because he knows that if this kind of a thing has to happen to somebody, that person will not need the help of anybody. In spite of everything it will happen. Whatever you are doing is blocking its happening. It is misleading to put it that way because there is nothing to happen. You don't realize that whatever you are doing is a self-centered activity. Whatever you are doing in any direction is only strengthening or distorting the whole thing. Spirituality is self-centered activity. It is very difficult to understand that. The instrument that you are using is born in the field of cause and effect. It cannot conceive of anything happening without cause and effect. That is why that is not the instrument, and there is no other instrument. It is a quantum jump. It jumps from here to there. You cannot link up these things. You put me on the other side of the river. You want to cross in a boat. That boat is a leaky boat and you will sink. There is no other bank and there is no river to cross, no boat. It is very difficult for you to understand that. You have created an image and put the image on the other side. I say, No, for goodness sake, I am on the same bank. There is no river to cross and no boatman is necessary! Nobody can guide you. You have no guidelines because he himself doesn't know. If I knew, I would guide you along. Such a man cannot guide or lead you anywhere. It is not that I am against gurus, not at all. He knows, even your books say it, that it is not the guru that can help you. It doesn't mean some sort of mysterious thing. The hymns say, Whomever it chooses, to him it happens. That does not mean that there is any power outside of you. That potential is there in you already. It has the capacity to explode. If through some strange chance, if through some luck, thought remains by itself without splitting itself into two--something has to happen to that. It is like an atomic explosion, not one but trillions. When it explodes it blasts everything that is there. It is a chain reaction. One after the other, every cell is involved. It is not so easy. Not through logic or power or somebody's teaching can you make it happen,

but the possibility of that kind of thing happening is there in everybody because that is its nature. I can't give it to you or tell you how this happened. That is the reason why I say it has no cause and cannot be reproduced. Reproducing a copy has no value at all. That is why it cannot be reproduced. It is not my opinion. No teacher has reproduced another teacher like himself. While he may have followers, he has something which cannot be reproduced because nature does not use anything as a model to reproduce another. So all your morality and all your practicing this, that and the other has no meaning. That is why the Upanishadic seers never talked of morality or practices whereas the saints have emphasized them because they are second-class imitators. This kind of a thing, if it has to happen, will happen in spite of those things. If anything has to happen it has to happen here and now. You see, the trouble is that the more beliefs you have the more difficult it becomes for you because one more thing is added to your tradition. Your tradition, which you want to preserve, has been strengthened and fortified by the appearance of a new man because you are trying to fit him into the framework of your tradition. This structure is interested in protecting the tradition. But this is interested in breaking the cumulative nature of the tradition, not in maintaining the tradition but in breaking it. A certain person breaks it and you make it a part of that accumulated wisdom. That is why it becomes more difficult. Even the revolutionary statement of that particular individual who has achieved this breakthrough has already become part of your tradition. Your very listening has destroyed the revolutionary nature of this breakthrough and has made this a part of knowledge, tradition, because you are the tradition. The listening mechanism that is operating there in you is the tradition. It strengthens itself, fortifies itself, through the listening process. By the time this has been accepted, the need has been created for somebody else to come and blast it. That is why I am talking. The very expression of this has created the need for something new to happen. That is its nature. That is the purpose, if there is any purpose, not to create a following but to create something new there. Something new is saving you from the burden of the past. The moment it is given expression to, it is old. Why be like those handing

over the torch from one person to another and maintaining the hierarchical structure? Following another is an animal quality. Man cannot become man so long as he follows somebody. What is responsible for man remaining an animal is that culture, the top dog. Following somebody, that has not helped you at all. Why be a cheap imitation of Buddha or whosoever? What for? I tell you, you are far more unique and extraordinary than all those saints and saviors of mankind put together. Why do you want to be a cheap imitation of that fellow? That is one of the myths. Forget it. You have that potential. The first thing is to drop copying others. Now supposing you are there, let us put it that way. You will not say to yourself or to others that you are a free man. You will not try to free anybody. It is just there like the flower. The wildflower has a beauty of its own. Other flowers are no match to that. It will go one day. It doesn't matter. There is nothing that you can do. That statement has no meaning for you because you are doing something all the time. You have to do something or the other, so this statement has no meaning, no relevance to you at all. The description of this state is a very dangerous thing because you are trying to relate this to the way you are functioning. Whatever you want you can get, whatever experience you want, but whatever you experience is worthless. Enlightenment, if there is any such thing, is not an experience at all. So this dawns on you, this realization, if you want to put it that way, that there is nothing to realize. Self-knowledge, or self-realization, is to realize for yourself and by yourself that there is no self to realize. That is going to be a shattering blow to the one pursuing it. That is why it happens to one in a million, one in a billion, not because of what he does or does not do. All your doing is the barrier. Unless you are there you can't understand the meaninglessness of this at all. When you are there you see that the very search is the self, the very thing you want to be free from. There is no you independent of the search; that you dont understand. It is the goal that you have set before yourself that has created the you. If the goal goes, if you brush aside the goal, you replace one with another. You can't be without illusion. You replace one illusion with another. If illusion goes, you go. If you accept the goal it is alright with me

but I say that the goal itself is false. I maintain that there is nothing to be achieved, nothing to be accomplished, nothing to be attained. So all that you are doing to achieve your goal is meaningless. The earlier it dawns on you the better for you. If those things produce some experiences it will be very difficult for you to transcend your own experience. Somewhere along the line it is bound to dawn on you, you know, that it is not taking you anywhere, but the hope keeps you going, the hope that one day through the same thing you will probably reach your goal, because that instrument is born out of time, is born out of cause and effect, and it cannot conceive of anything except in terms of time. So if time is not there, there is nothing to happen, let alone in the future, because it is time that has created the need for the timeless. Time means the future. If this time is cut off, it is not as if what you expect to happen will happen now. There is nothing to happen here. Time burns itself out when the timeless is knocked off. Whatever you want to happen is in terms of time. Assuming for a moment that you are already in the blissful state, you don't want to be in that state tomorrow. Whatever the state you want to be in, you are not in that state, because the goal is there, which is tomorrow, not today. So if this is not there, the thought which is thinking in terms of something happening in time is not there. Unfortunately, there is nothing to happen. Happening is in time. When time is not there, there is no happening. Self is God. The divine you want in the future is already here. There is nothing to happen. Achieving--it doesn't matter what you call it--is in time so it is bound to be caught up in cause and effect. You want to produce a result but this is not a result, not a happening, not an achievement. Anything you do with this will cause you pain. There's no end to that. You will keep searching for this eternally. You are not going to get it. Even if you get what you want and experience bliss, love, God-knows-what, there is always more of it. Silence you experience but you want permanent silence. You want always to be in silence but in the very nature of things there is no permanence at all. You have never lived with these people. I do not know if there are any. It's a very simple thing. It's so simple that the complex structure does not want to leave it alone. There's nothing that you can do. You can stay with any teacher all your life. Nothing is going to happen. There

is no inside or outside, you understand? The triggering apparatus is part of you. It's there. All techniques strengthen the very self you want to be free from. For what are you meditating? You want to be free from something. There is a continuous flow of thoughts and you are linking up all these thoughts all the time. All meditation is a self-centered activity. I don't talk of a meditative state. This individual is always in a state of meditation. Where is that movement? I am wondering. That is the meditation that is going on. Not that I am wondering in the usual sense of the word. This individual remains in a state of wonder for the rest of his life. Outside and inside are created by thought. When there is no movement of thought you don't know whether it is inside or outside. This is just like a mirror, a live mirror reflecting things exactly as they are. There is nobody here. I don't see anything. The whole of my body is reflecting things exactly the way they are out there. The recognizing and naming mechanism is in the background except when there is a need for it. This absence of the movement of thought which recognizes and names things is the state of moksha. You imagine that it's something he goes into and comes out of. Not at all, he's always there. Whether the eyes of such a man are open or closed, he does not know what he is looking at. This state is always a state of wonder. He doesn't know what he is hearing, he doesn't know what he is smelling, and yet his senses are working at their peak capacities, extraordinarily sensitive, taking in everything. There is a constant demand on your part to experience everything that you look at, everything that you are feeling inside, because if you don't do that you are coming to an end. You as you know yourself, you as you experience yourself, are coming to an end, and you do not want that to come to an end. You want the continuity. So all spiritual pursuits are in the direction of strengthening that continuity. It's a self-centered activity. Through self-centered activity how can you be free from the activities of the self? All your experiences, all your meditations, all your prayer, all that you do, is self-centered. It is strengthening the self, adding momentum, gathering momentum, so it is taking you in the opposite direction. Whatever you do to be free from the self also is a self-centered activity. You can't divide these things into two. The process you adopt to reach what you call being is

also a becoming process. I don't know if I make myself clear. There is no such thing as being and becoming. You are always in the becoming process, no matter what you call it. If you want to be yourself and not somebody else, that also is a becoming process. There is nothing to do about this. Anything you do to put yourself in that state of being is a becoming process. That is all that I am pointing out. Every time you do something, whether it is a good deed or a bad deed, you are strengthening that. You see, we are all functioning in a thought sphere, if I may use that phrase. What you pick out of that is according to your particular background, your culture. This is the product of the culture. You pick up thoughts which are beneficial to you to protect thought. Thought is a protective mechanism. What is it that it is protecting? It is protecting itself. It will do everything possible to prevent itself from breaking up. So even if you introduce the so-called spiritual pursuits it is only the strengthening of that. It is not in the opposite direction so you are on the wrong track. I am always negating what I am saying. I make a statement but that statement is not expressing all that is being said so I negate it. I negate the first statement, the second statement and all the other statements. That is why sometimes it sounds very contradictory. I am negating it all the time; not with the idea of arriving at any point, just negating. There is no purpose in my talking. I am only pointing out the basic situation that you cannot understand what I am talking about. It is not possible for you to listen to me without interpreting. I am all the time trying to knock off the reference point. When the reference point is absent, there is no need to understand me. You understand? I am all the time saying that. You won't even know what I am talking about. You are not in a position to accept or reject what I am saying. You accept a statement because it fits your reference point, your assumptions, like self-realization, God-realization, etc. The reference point is you. There is nothing other than the reference point there. That is you. If the reference point goes, you go with it. That is the end of you. Your very listening is interpretation. You never listen to anybody. It is not possible for you to listen to anybody without interpreting. The interpretation is a part of your background, you

see, so it is not possible for you to listen to anything without interpreting what you are listening to. So is there any other listening? There is a listening quite independent of words, but that is not on the conscious level. It does not mean that you are unconscious. I must make it very clear. That is a pure and simple physical response to the sound. The sound sets in motion the tympanum. So it is just a vibration. You really don't know what he is talking about. This is a physiological phenomenon so I express this only in physiological terms, not in psychological, not in religious, not in spiritual terms, because it's very important for me to express this state in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. This is just a machine responding to the stimuli of your questions. You have created the problem of their answers, I am not involved. I have no commitment to consistency. I have no viewpoint to put forward, no thesis to expound. I only respond to your stimulus. When you ask a question it is picked up immediately, I don't even decode it. Before you have even asked the question the answer is there. You can do it, it is nothing unusual. If you are not preoccupied with anything of your own it is an easy thing. It is not thought-reading. It is just an echo chamber. What is going on there is going on here. You can't do that. You want to decode every thought, to translate everything. What I'm saying can't be experienced by you except through the help of thought. In other words, as long as movement of thought is there it is not possible for you to understand what I'm talking about. When it is not there, there is no need for you to understand. In that sense, there is nothing to understand. Life is one unitary movement, not two different movements. It's moving, it's a continuous flux, but you cannot look at that flux and say, That is a flux. Then why do I say this is a flux? It is only to give you a feel about it that I use those words, but if you translate these words in terms of your concepts and abstractions you are lost. Really, you do not know a thing about what is being said. You don't understand at all. So if you realize that, what happens? Then there is no movement of thought there. Wanting to understand means there is a movement of thought. You really don't know a thing about what this chap is saying. Then what happens inside of

you is only that you repeat these phrases, word by word, without translating them, without interpreting them in terms of your concepts. His talking is just a noise. You are an echo chamber there. That's all that happens. You are not there. When the you is there you are translating. This is just a pure and simple physiological functioning of the organism. Because there is life, there is a response. The response and the stimulus are not two different movements. You cannot separate the response from the stimulus. The moment you separate the response from the stimulus, there is a division, it is a divisive consciousness that is in operation. So it is one movement. Thought and life are one interfluent movement. But there seems to be a movement of thought parallel to the movement of life going on in you all the time. There seems to be, otherwise there would be no need for us to sit and talk about this. Listening to me or trying to understand me would not be there. If there were no continuity of thought in you this situation which we have created for ourselves in this room wouldn't exist anymore. You wouldn't want to listen to any chap describing how he is functioning. Why should you? If he is functioning that way, alright, jolly good. Why are you interested in that? Why do you establish any relationship? As long as you listen to me you are lost. You listen to me because you want to understand what I am talking about, not that it is something abstract or difficult but your understanding is through that instrument and that is not the instrument. The refined, sensitized instrument you call intuition, but there is no other instrument. If that is not the instrument and there is no other instrument, the logical conclusion from that statement is, Is there anything to understand? There is nothing to understand. That understanding is here somehow. I don't know how it came. That is why I cannot take you there. It has no cause. You are interested in finding out the cause because you want it to happen in you. So it is not a question of understanding me. It is just not possible to understand. The only thing you can understand is within a certain framework and in relation to a point of reference. You think that the more you listen, the more these things become clear to you, but the clarity of thought is making it more difficult for you to understand what I am talking about. As long as you think that you can see more and more clearly, I say you have seen nothing. If you say you

have seen, you have not seen, because seeing is the end of the structure that says that. There is no seeing you can know. In other words, there is no seeing. As long as you think you can understand this more, see the world around you more clearly, I say you will see nothing and understand nothing. The difference between you and me is that you are trying to understand. The absence of what is going on there is what is here. I can only point out the obstacle, that's all. You see, it is not that I know I am in a state of not knowing. The statement, I don't know a thing, is an expression of that state. Be very clear about it, it is not that I say to myself that I don't know what I am looking at. That state is throwing out the expression. That is the expression, the description, of the state by itself, not that there is somebody who is saying it. The state itself, by itself, says, I really don't know a thing about it. When all attempts and efforts on your part fail to fit what is being said into the logical framework, the rational framework, I have to say that you cannot in any way understand what it is all about. It is beyond logic. It is beyond rationality. You can never experience it. Don't try! That is not going to help you at all. There are no two ways about it. You, the structure trying to understand, are not going to understand. I can't understand a thing about it. You are still trying to understand, experience, something which you can never understand. The sages spoke at a time when words had different connotations. Their students listened and passed it on. That is why I often ask, What is my teaching? Please tell me. I don't know a thing about my teaching. I don't know a thing about my state. Not that I can. I know I cannot. The limitation is there. It has its own limitation and it has understood its limitation. It cannot experience that at all, that's all I am saying. You see, your very listening is an interpretation. You cannot listen to what I am saying. If you are in that state where there is just an echo of what I am saying, repeating the words without understanding them, you really don't know what this chap is talking about and you don't even try to understand. I am telling you the simple fact that you cannot listen to me at all. Whatever you make out of your listening is your own listening, not what I am saying. What I am saying you don't know, I don't know.

What I am saying has no logic. If it has a logic it has a logic of its own, I don't know anything about it. But you have necessarily to fit me into the logical structure of your thought. Otherwise, the logical structure there, the rational thing, comes to an end. You see, you have to rationalize, that is what you are, but this has nothing to do with rationality. It has nothing to do with your logic. What do you want to understand? There is nothing to understand. That is the understanding I am talking about. If you understand what it is all about, what I am talking about, you are already there. It will be something new, something totally new. You will give expression to it in a completely different way. You will not repeat what Buddha said, what Jesus said, what Rajneesh said or what some other is saying. It will be new and it will express itself in a totally different way. How will it express itself I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows. If others fit me into their frameworks it is their business. We do not have any vested interest in that. You will probably fit me into some framework and say that so-and-so said this before. That is my misfortune wherever I go. J. Krishnamurti people come, Rajneesh people come, others come, and they say, You are saying the same thing! How the hell do you know I am saying the same thing? Do you know anything of what he is talking about? First of all, you must know what he is talking about and what is there behind it and then you can compare what I am saying with what he is saying. I am not saying any of those things. I don't compare myself with anybody. Why compare myself with sages, saints and saviors? It would be the biggest tragedy of my life, wouldn't it? I don't compare myself at all. What I am saying is not the same thing that has been said before, no. How do I know? You see, you are trying to fit me into that framework. You have necessarily to do that. If you don't do that you come to an end. That is a dangerous point. So you have to reject me totally, saying, He is talking some nonsense, rubbish, bosh! Or you have to fit me into whatever particular background you have or into somebody else's framework and say, He is saying the same thing. Otherwise, the tin gods you have created out of somebody's teaching will collapse. You have necessarily to do that, either one or the other.

You are not going to get anything here. You are wasting your time. Pack up and go! That is my message. I have nothing to give. You have nothing to take. If you continue to sit there you are wasting your time. The one thing you have to do is get up and go. If you still think I can give you something you'll have to sit there until kingdom come. I have nothing to give. There's nothing to be given. The holy business, I am not in it. I don't want a thing. I have nothing to give so there's no breach of contract here; nothing. I don't want anything. You may think that I am talking for self-fulfillment. If I do, that will be my tragedy, my misery. So you are out. You are not interested in involving yourself in my tragedy. I do not give a damn for you. I know you are doomed. If you think something is going to happen and sit here day after day, week after week, year after year, waiting till kingdom come, even then no kingdom will come. Go where you will and do what you want! I tell you very clearly, loud and clear, in clear, unmistakable language, that there is nothing to be communicated now or at any time. I am really surprised, in spite of that assertive statement you hang on here. It is your funeral. You are chasing something which does not exist. There is nothing to be transformed, nothing to be changed, nothing to be understood. So long as you want to be like me you will remain what you are, asking the same questions. You will get the same answer. The one answer for all questions is, Stop asking questions! The whole culture is built on the foundation of kill and get killed. They are even teaching that. You can't be other than what you are. Whatever you are trying to do to change, you will not succeed. Stop running away from yourself! What is the good of my saying so? There is no use my telling you that because you are not going to stop it. I am telling you to stop it. You are not certain of it, Maybe there is something that can be done. I am certain that you have no freedom of action. In that sense, I go a step further and say that you are genetically controlled. Naturally, you will say that that statement is a theory. You have a hope that you can do something. There are many people in the holy business who assure you that you can do something, so you will go there, as simple as that. My certainty remains. Alright, you can go and try your luck. In the end you will find out for yourself and by yourself, That chappie is right! I'll sing my song and go.

On my side it is very clear. There are so many people who have said they can help you but you are not going to get anything from anybody because there is nothing to get. That is why I say that since there is no such thing as enlightenment, the question whether someone is enlightened or not does not at all arise. You are all like-minded people who are after such things, that is all. That is your projection, your ideation, about those people, that is all that I am saying. There may not be anything there other than what you have projected on them. This is not a thing to be talked about and praised. You are not called upon to change this world. I am not interested in changing the society. What I am saying has absolutely no social content at all. This is an extraordinarily beautiful world! You want to change this world so that you can live in a world of your own ideas. The real problem is that you want to change yourself and find it's impossible so you want to change the world to fit it into your own pattern. You want to be a good man, a nice man, an innocent man, and all that stuff. You want to be something different, but always in the future. That is what all the teachers promise you, and they just promise, a next life or an afterlife. Till then he is in business, he is assured. If he says there is nothing you leave him. That is why I do not have to bother. You are going to leave in any case because what brings you here will certainly take you somewhere else. You are interested in getting something, some kind of a false hope or promise. Here you are not going to get it. I don't give false hopes or promises, but religious leaders have created some hope, so you go on and on, like riding a tiger you can't get off. There's no journey. Both are kidding themselves, those who take or pretend to take you on the journey and those who are trying. You can't walk with me. You are so frightened of the thorns there, the stones, you want a trained guide. I myself don't know the terrain. Have you never heard of the proverb that warns you never to walk with a man who has sandals because he always walks on thorns? You will get into trouble. I myself do not know the terrain, I am just going. This cannot be used to change the world, reform the world, create a new man, a new world-all that is balderdash. Maybe some people do it just to help some people. That's alright, do something. If it works, it works. But to suggest something like that, knowing very well that it

is not going to work, is not right, Let's give them some new toys to play with, all the traditional ways have failed. What are you doing? You are not doing anything. You are repeating new phrases, new words, new idioms. That is all you are doing. You don't accept the fact that all that is a contamination there in that consciousness. Whatever you consider sacred, whatever you consider extraordinary, is a contamination in that consciousness. It has to purify itself. All that--all that dross, all that is holy, all that is sacred--must go. When that has gone you are yourself, otherwise there is dependence. If religiousness is all you are interested in, there is no need to look anywhere other than organized religion. The profound statements of the great teachers are not much different from each other. All I am saying is that looking to alien lands and religions does not mean anything. You learn new techniques, new systems, new phrases, and then you begin to think and speak in terms of this new language and probably you feel just great but basically it does not mean anything at all. There is a very powerful plaster. If there is a little crack in your structure you will plaster it over. It is very powerful. It has millions of years of momentum. It knows all the tricks. It can invent any trick to gain momentum. That is its nature. There isn't anything you can do about it. You can discuss it for years but I promise you, you will not get anywhere. If anyone makes you believe you can get somewhere, he's taking you for a ride. There is no one who is honest in this field. No outside agency can help you. I am not asking you to do anything. How can you be interested in this kind of a thing? What you are interested in is a totally different thing, fancy stuff, fantasy. You may indulge in all kinds of fantasy, that's your affair. If this is not a fantasy, you will be interested in some other kind of fantasy. How can you be interested in liquidating yourself? All that you know--you as you know yourself, you as you experience yourself--is interested in continuity. It knows all the tricks. You cannot beat that. All questions reduce themselves to the one question, How am I going to get what you have? And through that a structure is permanently establishing itself there and getting its continuity. There is no how.

I am not interested in the whole field of self-expression--getting in touch with one's feelings, overcoming inhibitions and so on. I respond to what people come to see me about, the natural state. If people are interested in psychological change, so-called consciousness expansion and all that, let them go to encounter groups or see psychiatrists and engage in what I call the Freudian fraud. In the end, their so-called growth will not bring them happiness. At best, they will simply have learned to be unhappy in a new and richer way. I am not concerned with that. My interest is in the subject they come to see me about in the first place. My interest is in pointing out the utter impossibility of doing anything whatsoever to attain the natural state. Anyhow, the people who come to see me do not stay very long. They come a few times or hang around for a few months then they either go back to their ordinary lives or go on to some fellow who promises them what they seek. Either way that's fine with me. But one thing I will never do is deceive them. I will never suggest in any way that I can give them anything. I will never hook them into some phony baloney idea about practicing undifferentiated awareness and the observer being the same as the observed and all that. Everything is okay with me. I am perfectly happy with everything as it is. I am happy with misery, poverty and death. I am also happy with wealth and psychological fulfillment. I think the solution to your real problems is, in any case, not possible for you unless you undergo the sort of biological transformation that has happened to me, which is not to say that I ever consider myself superior to you or to anyone else because of this. Quite the contrary, the idea of superiority or inferiority never even enters my head for one moment. The total absence of this idea is one of the characteristics of this whole transformation business. The natural state is one in which thinking and life are not two things but one. It is not an intellectual state. It is more like a state of feeling, although I use the word feeling in a different sense than that in which you use the word. It is a state of not seeking. Man is always seeking something--money, power, sex, love, mystical experience, truth, enlightenment--and it is this seeking which keeps him out of his natural state. And although I am in a natural state, I cannot help someone else, because it is my particular natural state, not another's. So don't listen to me or anybody. Listening to other people is what you've been doing all your

life. It's the cause of your unhappiness. You are unique. There is no reason for your wanting to be like another chap. You can't be like him anyway. This wanting--wanting to listen, wanting to understand, wanting to be like such-and-such an individual--has come about because society is interested in creating a perfect man, but there is no such thing as a perfect man. All we can do is be ourselves and no one can help you be that. You keep listening to someone, it makes no difference whom. And you keep hoping that somehow, tomorrow or the next day, by listening more and more, you will get off the merrygo-round. You listen to your parents and teachers tell you to be good and dutiful and not be angry and so on and that doesn't do any good so you go and learn meditation. You find someone in the holy business and you fall for it. Or perhaps he touches you and you see some light or God-knows-what and you hope he will help you experience enlightenment, but he cannot help you. I do not know if you see the utter helplessness of the situation and how, if anyone thinks he can help you, he will inevitably mislead you. And the less phony he is, the more powerful he is. The more enlightened he is, the more misery and mischief he will create for you. Life as such has no beginning and no end. It is a beginningless and endless movement and you are only an expression of it. You are conscious of yourself through thought, by which I mean not just conscious thought but that conditioning which transforms the life that passes through you into feelings, into pleasure and pain. And this thought is not yours. It is what you have learned from others. It is second-hand. It belongs to everybody. You belong to everybody. When you accept nature, everything falls into its own rhythm. There is nothing to control and nothing to ask. You don't have to do a thing. You are finished. You don't let your power express itself. That's something living, vital. It's the throb, the pulse, the beat of life. You are an expression of that life. How can you experience that? This structure of thought through which you experience is dead. It cannot experience that life at all because the one is something living and the other is dead, and there can't be any relationship between the two. You can only experience dead things, not a living thing. Life has to express itself. This is a thing which nobody can teach you. You don't have to get it from somebody.

What you have is there. No outside agency can help you; nobody. So, all outside agencies are finished. That is a very difficult point to arrive at. You don't go and listen to anybody no matter how holy he may be. He may be the god of gods, he may say, I have come to liberate the whole of mankind. If you go there just to satisfy your curiosity that's a different matter. You don't seek anything from any source outside so you fall back on yourself and you really don't know. You want to find out. You ask the question again and again, you are stuck with it, How can I understand this thing? When you are finished with all answers from outside and no answer is forthcoming from inside, what happens to that question? That question cannot remain there, it dissolves itself. Ionization of thought takes place because it cannot escape, and that is energy. That is life. You can't do a thing. Don't get on this journey of freeing yourself from the conditioning of your own thought. But you are still trying. You accept these ideas. You never question the validity of those statements. It doesn't matter who says it, it is false for you. Not only that, it is falsifying you because you do not test the validity of those statements for yourself. The conditioning, you see, you will never be free from that. Don't believe anybody. I don't accept that there is such a thing as the mind, let alone the open mind or the unconditioned mind. There is no totality of these thoughts and experiences. They are all disconnected, disjointed things. You'll never be free from thought. If there is any such thing as a thoughtless state it can never be experienced by you or by anybody. Whatever you experience there is created by this thought. It is time that creates the timeless and then pursues it, and through this pursuit time is continuing. Continuity is all that it is interested in. Abstractions are very misleading. If you start talking in terms of innocence, in terms of this, that and the other, you are lost. In that state you really don't know what you are looking at. You don't know that you are looking at your wife. Can there be any relationship? You see, you can talk of innocence but when there is no mind why talk of the innocent mind? Where is the mind or the unconditioned mind? These phrases are very misleading. They are not going to help in any way. To me there is no such

thing as mind. Mind is a myth. There is nothing there to be transformed, radically or otherwise. There is no self to be realized. The whole religious structure that has been built on this foundation collapses because there is nothing there to realize. You can come here. Nothing will happen. Nothing will evolve. You will not get anything from me. That is why I am safe. I live my own life. If somebody comes, I say, Tell me, what can I do? There's nothing much I can do. Thank you. Goodbye. The very nature of mind is neurotic because it wants two things at the same time. So every individual is neurotic and when you can't get it you become psychotic, you become wild. Not that you necessarily go and beat somebody but you are destroying yourself because the violence is there inside of you. What makes you unhappy is the search for a thing that does not exist. This is the unfortunate situation. You are not getting anywhere. That is not the way at all. Then what is the way? There is no way. Anything I say you turn into a way and add to the momentum. That is not the way. That is not the path. It has to be yours. All paths must go. As long as you follow somebody else's path, the path is the product of thought. So it is actually not a new path, it's the same old path, and you are playing the same old game in a new way. It is not a new game. It is the same old game that you are playing all the time, but you think you are playing a new game. You have to come to a point where you can't do anything at all. I say there is no translator who is translating the sensations. There is not even the knowledge that they are sensations. You are translating all these sensations. You can't stop the translation. You are the product of translation. There may not be any stoppage. If somebody says there is a stoppage, To hell with what he is saying, this chap is either a cuckoo or some far out, freaked out ape. He is talking about things that are not real to me. You don't have the courage. You don't want to accept the reality of yourself. What I am saying is something totally unrelated to the way you are functioning. So then naturally it has to slow down. You don't know. You come to a point where you don't know what to do about the whole business, I can't do anything. This is the only way I know. I don't know any other way. If you see the futility of it all maybe it will not really stop but slow

down. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. This is what I have been trying to communicate to those of you who come to see me and who care to listen to me. As long as you want to get or achieve something or want to be enlightened you are not going to be an enlightened. I don't know, I never say to myself, I am an enlightened man, a self-realized man. What does it mean? It doesn't mean anything to me. So to me there's no point in talking about enlightenment or going about with my head raised saying to myself and others, Come ye and listen to me. I am an enlightened man. I am going to liberate you all. That's the holy business. Maybe you've heard that there is some funny fellow, that he's brutal and is saying all sorts of things. Probably, curiosity brought you here, I don't know. And if you say I do all this for kicks it is alright with me, but I'm not doing it for kicks. Alright, assuming for a moment that I am doing all this for pleasure--why do you allow yourself to be used by me? Keep away! Don't allow yourself to be used by me! Stay away! My interest is to send you all packing. Don't allow yourself to be exploited by me! I don't get any pleasure. If you don't come tomorrow it's all the same but you don't believe it because the only thing you know is pleasure. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with pleasure. Don't say that it is something wrong. If you accept that you are here for exactly the same reason that a man goes to a bordello, that's going to give you a terrible shock. There's no difference at all. Perhaps you have heard something about a transformed individual and that is what is bringing you here. This is not born out of thinking. These are just words springing up from their natural source without any thought, without any thought structure. So take it or leave it! You will be better off if you leave it. Anything you listen to is turned into a method, a system. You want to get something through this. For example, somebody says there is a mind and you must uncondition your mind. How are you going to uncondition your mind? You are conditioning your mind through this lingo. That is all that it is necessary for you to see. I'll sing this song the rest of my life until I drop dead. Whether anybody listens to it or not is

of no importance to me. So, then you leave this chap alone. You never establish any relationship with this man. The moment you use this to get whatever you want to get or to arrive at some kind of a destination you are tricking yourself into the same old game. There isn't anything you can get from any spiritual discourses or from any religious book. This is what I have been trying to point out to those who care to listen to me. There is nothing to accomplish, nothing to attain. If you are searching for and want anything, the first thing you must do is throw away--lock, stock and barrel, hook, line and sinker--all this stuff that you are hanging on to, otherwise there is no chance for you to be yourself. Any path you follow leads you astray, puts you on the wrong track. If you make anything out of what I am saying you are lost, body and soul, and if there is a God, He must, out of His sheer mercy, save you all and save you from me. One thing I make very clear, I'm not here to liberate you at all. Who am I to liberate you? What is it that you want to liberate yourself from? You are trying to ask for a thing that you have so I only point out that you're on the wrong track. Your teacher must go. It doesn't matter who it is. What you are reading is the very thing you must be free from. You are moving away from yourself. You have to be yourself and a path is trying to turn you into something other than yourself. Why do you want to be somebody other than yourself? You see, otherwise you wouldn't listen to anyone. Look here, I want to be full of feeling for everybody. Somebody is talking about love, for example, so you want to be full of that love, whatever it is. You are projecting a hundredfold what you think love is, for example. That's what makes it difficult for you to be yourself.

Chapter Two: 1982 -- India, Switzerland and California This is the only reality I have, the world as it is today. The ultimate reality that man has invented has absolutely no relation to the reality of this world. As long as you are seeking, searching and wanting to understand what you call ultimate reality, or call it by whatever name you like, it will not be possible for you to come to terms with the reality of the world exactly the way it is. So anything you do to escape from the reality of this world will make it

difficult for you to live in harmony with the things around you. We have an idea of harmony, of how to live at peace. There is an extraordinary peace that is there already. What makes it difficult for you to live at peace with yourself is the creation of what you call peace, which is totally unrelated to the harmonious functioning of this body. When you free yourself from the burden of reaching out there to grasp, to experience and to be in that reality, then you will find that it is difficult to understand the reality of anything. You will find that you have no way of experiencing the reality of anything, but at least you will not be living in a world of illusions. You will accept that there is nothing that you can do to experience the reality of anything except the reality that is imposed on us by the society. We have to accept the reality as it is imposed on us by the society because it is very essential for us to function in this world intelligently and sanely. If we don't accept that reality, we are lost. We will end up in the loony bin. So we have to accept the reality as it is imposed on us by the culture, by society or whatever you want to call it and at the same time understand that there is nothing that we can do to experience the reality of anything. Then you will not be in conflict with the society, and the demand to be something other than what you are will come to an end. The goal that you have placed before yourself, which you have accepted as the ideal to be reached, and the demand to be something other than what you are, are no longer there. The pursuit of those goals which the culture has placed before us and that we have accepted as desirable is not there any more. The demand to reach them is no longer there, so you are what you are. When the movement in the direction of becoming something other than what you are isn't there any more, you are not in conflict with yourself. If you are not in conflict with yourself you cannot be in conflict with the society around you. As long as you are not at peace with yourself it is not possible for you to be at peace with others. Even then, there is no guarantee that your neighbors will be peaceful, but, you see, you will not be concerned with that. When you are at peace with yourself then you are a threat to the society as it functions today. You will be a threat to your neighbors because they have accepted the reality of the world as real and because they are also pursuing some funny thing called peace. You will become a

threat to their existence as they know it and as they experience it. So you are all alone. Not the aloneness that people want to avoid. You are all alone. It's not ultimate reality that one is really interested in, not the teachings of the gurus, not the teachings of the holy men, not the umpteen number of techniques you have, which will give you the energy which you are seeking. Once that movement is not there, that will set in motion and release the energy that is there. It doesn't have to be the holy man's teaching. It doesn't have to be any techniques that man has invented, because there is no friction there. You really don't know what it is. The movement there and the movement here are one and the same. The human machine is no different from the machine out there. Both of them are in unison. Whatever energy is there, the same energy is in operation here. So any energy you experience through the practice of any techniques is a frictional energy. That energy is created by the friction of thought. The demand to experience that energy is responsible for the energy you experience, but this energy is something which cannot be experienced at all. This is just an expression of life, a manifestation of life. You don't have to do a thing. Anything you do to experience that is preventing the energy which is already there, which is the expression of life, which is the manifestation of life, from functioning. It has no value in terms of the values we give to whatever we are doing--the techniques, meditation, yoga and all that. I am not against any one of those things, please don't get me wrong, but they are not the means to achieve the goal that you have placed before yourself. The goal itself is false. If the suppleness of the body is the goal you have before you, probably the techniques of yoga will help you to keep the body supple. But that is not the instrument to reach the goal of enlightenment or transformation or whatever you want to call it. Even the techniques of meditation are self-centered activities. They are all self-perpetuating mechanisms which you use. So the object of your search for ultimate reality is defeated by all these techniques because these techniques are self-perpetuating instruments. You will suddenly realize, or it will dawn on you, that the very search for ultimate reality is also a self-perpetuating mechanism. There is nothing to reach, nothing to gain, nothing to attain. As long as you are doing something to attain your goal it is a self-perpetuating mechanism. I say self-perpetuating mechanism but I don't mean that there is a self or an entity. I have to use

the word self because there is no other word. That is all that it is interested in. Anything you want to achieve is a self-centered activity. When I use the term self-centered activity you always translate it in terms of something that should be avoided because selflessness is your goal. As long as you are doing something to be selfless you will be a self-centered individual. When this movement in the direction of wanting to be a selfless man is not there, then there is no self and there is no self-centered activity. So it is the very techniques, systems and methods which you are using to reach your goal of selflessness that are self-centered activities. Unfortunately, society has placed that goal before us as the ideal goal because a selfless man will be a great asset to the society, and the society is interested only in continuity, the status quo. So all those values which we have accepted as values that one should cultivate are invented by the human mind to keep itself going. The goal is what is making it possible for you to continue in this way, but you are not getting anywhere. The hope is that one day, through some miracle or through the help of somebody, you will be able to reach the goal. It is hope that keeps you going, but actually and factually you are not getting anywhere. You will realize, somewhere along the line, that whatever you are doing to reach your goal is not leading you anywhere. Then you will want to try this, that and the other. But if you try one and you see that it doesn't work you will see that all the other systems are exactly the same. This has to be very clear, you see. Whatever pursuit you are indulging in, somewhere along the line it has to dawn on you that it is not leading you anywhere. As long as you want something you will do that. That want has to be very clear. What do you want? All the time I ask you the question, What do you want? You say, I want to be at peace with myself. That is an impossible goal for you because everything you are doing to be at peace with yourself is what is destroying the peace that is already there. You have set in motion the movement of thought, which is destroying the peace that is there, you see. It is very difficult to understand that all that you are doing is the impediment, is the one thing that is disturbing the harmony, the peace that is already there. Any movement in any direction, on any level, is a very destructive factor for the smooth and peaceful functioning of this living organism, which is not at all interested in your spiritual

experiences. It has no interest in any one of those spiritual experiences, however extraordinary they may be. When once you have one spiritual experience, there is bound to be a demand for more of the same, and ultimately you will want to be in that state permanently. There is no such thing as permanent happiness or permanent bliss at all. You think that there is because all those books talk of eternal bliss, permanent bliss or permanent happiness. Yet you know jolly well that it is not leading you anywhere. So the mechanism that is involved, the instrument that you are using, is the one that keeps you going, because it does not know anything else. It has come into being through so many years of hard work, effort and will. Your wanting to be in a state of effortlessness through the use of effort is not going to succeed. So forget about the effortless state. It doesn't exist at all. You want to achieve an effortless state through effort. How the hell are you going to achieve that goal? You forget that everything that you are doing, any movement that is there, any want that is there for whatever reason, is effort. Effortlessness is something which cannot be achieved through effort. Anything that you do to stop the effort is itself an effort. It's really a maddening thing. You have not really pushed yourself into that corner. If you do, then you will really go crazy. But you are frightened of that. You have to see that everything that you are doing to be in that effortless state, for whatever reason you want to be there, is effort. Even wanting not to use effort also is effort. The total absence of will and effort, all and every kind, may be called an effortless state, but that is not something that you can achieve through effort. You can change the techniques, you can change the teachers, but basically and essentially the very teaching that you are using to reach your goal is the obstacle. It doesn't matter what teacher you follow. Understanding is the absence of the demand for understanding. It may sound funny to you but that's the way it is. So what do you want to understand? You can't understand me at all. You are not going to understand anything at all. It's not that it is difficult. It is so simple. The complex structure that is involved is the very thing that does not accept the simplicity of it. That is really the problem. It can't be that simple, you think, because that structure is so complex that it doesn't want even to consider the possibility that it could be so simple.

I am not saying anything profound. I have been repeating the same thing day after day. Basically, it sounds very contradictory to you. What I am doing is I make a statement and the second statement negates the first statement. Sometimes you see contradictions in what I am saying. Actually, they are not contradictions. This statement does not express what I am trying to express so the second statement is negating the first statement. The third statement is negating the first two statements and the fourth statement is negating the previous three statements, not with the idea of arriving at any goal, not with the idea of communicating anything to you. There is nothing to be communicated, only this series of negations, not with the idea of arriving at any goal. Your goal is understanding. You want to understand, you see. There is nothing to understand here. Every time you make some sense out of it, I try to point out that is not it. It is not the doctrine of neti-neti. You know, in India they have evolved this negative approach, but the so-called negative approach is a positive approach because they are still interested in reaching a goal. They have failed through the positive approaches so they have invented what is called the negative approach, Not this, not this. The unknown cannot be reached, you see, nor can it be experienced through the positive approach. The so-called negative approach is not really a negative approach because there is still the positive goal of knowing the unknown or wanting to experience something which cannot be experienced. It's only a trick. That's all it is, playing games. There is no such thing as the unknown at all. How can I say that there is no such thing as the unknown? How can I make such a dogmatic assertion? You will find out. As long as you are pursuing the unknown, this movement is in operation. There is something that you can do that gives you the hope that maybe one day you will stumble into this experience of the unknown. How can the unknown ever become the known? Not a chance. Even assuming for a moment that this movement is not there, what is there you will never know. You have no way of knowing it at all, no way of capturing and experiencing that or giving expression to it. To talk of eternal bliss, love--all of that is romantic poetry. You see, if you translate what I am saying in terms of your values, in terms of particular codes of conduct, you are really missing

the point. It is not that I am against the moral codes of conduct. They have a social value. They are essential for the smooth functioning of society. You have to have some code of conduct to function in this world intelligently. Otherwise, there will be utter chaos. That is a social problem. It is not an ethical or religious problem. You have to separate the two things because we are living in a different world today. We have to find another way of keeping ourselves in harmony with the world around us. As long as you are in conflict within yourself, it will not be possible for you to be in harmony with the society around you. You are yourself responsible for that. If you translate the statements that I am making within the framework of your religious thinking, you are really missing the point. It has nothing to do with religion at all. I am not suggesting that you should change yourself into something other than what you are. It is just not possible. I am not trying to free you from anything. I don't think there is any purpose in this talking. You can brush aside my description and say it is nonsense. That's your privilege. But maybe it will occur to you that the image you have of your goal, or the image of what you are going to do one day, through all the effort and will which you are using, has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with what I am describing. What I am describing is not really what you are interested in. I wish I could give you just a glimpse of it, a touch of it. You wouldn't want to touch this at all. And what you want, what you are interested in, doesn't exist. You can have a lot of petty experiences if that is what you are interested in. Do all the meditations. Do everything you want. You will have lots of them. It's a lot easier to experience those things by taking drugs. I am not recommending drugs but they are the same. Doctors say that drugs will damage the brain but meditation will also damage the brain if it is done very seriously. They have gone crazy, jumped into rivers and killed themselves. They did all kinds of things, locked themselves up in caves because they couldn't face it. You see, it is not possible for you to watch your thoughts. It is not possible for you to watch every step you take, it will drive you crazy. You can't walk. That's not what is meant by this idea that you should be aware of everything, watch every thought. How is it possible for you to watch every thought of yours, and for what do you want to watch your thoughts? What for,

control? It's not possible for you to control. It is a tremendous momentum. When you succeed in your imagination that you have controlled your thoughts and experienced some space between those thoughts, or some state of thoughtlessness, you feel that you are getting somewhere. That is a thought-induced state of thoughtlessness. The fact that you experience the space between two thoughts, the thoughtless state, means that the thought was very much there. It surfaces afterwards, like the Rhone, which flows through France, disappears, and then comes up again. It has gone underground. The river is still there. You can't use it for purposes of navigation, but ultimately it comes up again. In exactly the same way, all these things which you are pushing down into the subterranean regions, feeling that you are experiencing something extraordinary, surface again. And then you will find that those thoughts are welling up inside of you. You are not aware that you are breathing now. You don't have to be conscious of your breathing. Why do you want to be conscious of your breathing? To control your breathing, to expand your lungs, to do what you like with your chest, that's a different matter. But why do you want to be aware of the movement of breath from the origin to the end? You suddenly become conscious of your breathing. Your breath and thought are very closely related. That's why you want to control your breath. And that, in a way, is controlling the thought for a while. But if you hold your breath for long it is going to choke you to death in exactly the same way that anything you do to hold or block the flow of thoughts is going to choke you to death, literally to death, or damage something. Thought is a very powerful vibration, an extraordinary vibration. It is like an atom. You can't play with those things. You are not going to reach your goal of completely controlling your thought. Thought has to function in its own way, in its disconnected, disjointed way. That is something which cannot be brought about through any effort of yours. It has to fall into its normal rhythm. Even if you want to make it fall into a normal rhythm, you are adding momentum to that. It has a life of its own which has, unfortunately, established a parallel life within the movement of life. These two are always in conflict. That will come to an end only when the body comes to an end. Thought has become the master of this body. Thought has totally mastered the whole thing. It

is still trying to control everything that is there. You don't have to do a thing. You are not separate from that, that's all I am emphasizing. You cannot separate yourself from the thought and say, These are my thoughts. That is the illusion you have, and you cannot be without any illusion. You always replace one illusion with another illusion; always. You accept that you are always replacing one illusion with another illusion, so your wanting to be free from illusion is an impossibility. That itself is an illusion. Why do you want to be free from illusions? That's the end of you. It's not that I am frightening you, I am just pointing out that it is not just a lighthearted game to play. That is you, you as you know yourself. When that knowledge you have of yourself is not there any more, the knowledge you have about the world also is not there any more, it can't be there any more. It is not going to come to an end that easily. It will always be replaced by another illusion. You don't want to be a normal person. You don't want to be an ordinary person. That is really the problem. It is the most difficult thing to be an ordinary person. Culture demands you must be something other than what you are. That has created a certain momentum, a powerful movement of thought. You can use it to achieve something, otherwise it has no use. You can build a tremendous philosophical structure of thought, but that has no value at all. You can interpret any event, but thought is not intended for that. At the same time, you forget that everything you have around you is the creation of thought. You are yourself born out of thought, otherwise you would not be here at all. In that sense it has value. Yet it is the very thing that destroys you. That's the paradox. Everything that you have created in this world has become possible through the help of thought, but unfortunately, that very thing has become the enemy because you are using thought for purposes for which it is not intended. It can be used for solving the technical problems very well and efficiently but it cannot be used to solve the problems of life. Anything that does not suggest your positive thinking you call it negative. But positive and negative are only in the field of your thinking. When the thought is not there it is neither positive nor negative. As I was saying, there is no such thing as a negative approach at all. It's a gimmick.

I am telling you to stand on your own. You can walk. You can swim. You are not going to sink. That's all that I can say. As long as there is fear, the danger of your sinking is almost certain. Otherwise, there is a buoyancy there in the water that keeps you afloat. The fear of sinking is the very thing that makes it impossible for you to let the movement happen in its own way. You see, it has no direction. It is just a movement with no direction. You are trying to manipulate and channel that movement along a particular direction so that you can have some benefits. You are just a movement without a direction. There is no inside or outside. What's there is only the operation, the flow of the knowledge. You have gathered all this knowledge from various sources. It gives you power. Knowledge is power. To acquire more and more knowledge, more than is essential for the survival of the living organism, is to acquire power over others. The technical knowledge that you need to make a living is understandable. You may have to learn a skill. The society is not going to feed you unless you give something in return. You have to give them what they want, not what you have to give. You have, through ideation and mentation, created your own thoughts which you consider to be yours, just as when different colors are mixed into various hues, but all of them can be reduced to the seven basic colors found in nature. What you think are your thoughts are actually just combinations and permutations of the thoughts of others. You cannot conceive of the possibility of understanding anything except in time. Everything takes time. It has taken so many years for you to be where you are today and you are still striving and struggling to reach a higher plateau, higher and higher. That instrument which you are using cannot conceive of the possibility of understanding anything without effort, without striving, without producing results, but the issues that you have to deal with in life are the living issues. Thought has not helped us to solve those problems. Temporarily, you can find some solution, but that creates another problem, and it goes on and on. These are all life issues, but the mind is a dead instrument and cannot be used to understand anything living. How can you bring about a change in consciousness, which has no limits, which has no

boundaries, which has no frontiers? You can do every kind of research to find the seat of human consciousness, but there is no such thing as the seat of human consciousness at all. You can try but the chances of succeeding in that are slim. There is no such thing as a seat located in any particular individual. What there is, is thought. Whenever a thought takes its birth there, you have created an entity or a point, and in reference to that point you are experiencing things. Every time a thought is born you are born. Thought, in its very nature, is short-lived. This state cannot be described in terms of bliss, love, compassion and all that poetic nonsense and romantic stuff because you have no way of experiencing what is there between these two thoughts. The world you experience around you is also from that point of view. There must be a point and it is this that creates the space. If this point is not there, there is no space, so anything you experience from this point is an illusion. Not that the world is an illusion--the world is not an illusion--but anything you experience in relationship to this point, which itself is illusory, is bound to be an illusion, that's all. The Sanskrit word maya does not mean illusion in the same sense in which the English word is used. Maya means to measure. You cannot measure anything unless you have a point. So if the center is absent there is no circumference at all. That is pure and simple basic arithmetic. This point has no continuity. It comes into being in response to the demands of the situation. They create it. There is light. If the light is not there, you have no way of looking at anything. The light falls on that object and the reflection of that light activates the optic nerves which in turn activate the memory cells. When the memory cells are activated, all the knowledge you have about that object comes into operation. It is that process which is happening there that has created the subject and the subject is the knowledge you have about it. When you reduce it to that, you feel the absurdity of talking about the self. The lower self, the higher self and self knowing, self-knowledge, knowing from moment to moment, is absolute rubbish, balderdash! You can indulge in such absolute nonsense and build up philosophical theories but there is no subject there at all, at any time. So not only the I but all the physical sensations are involved in this. Sound, smell and the sense of touch--the operation of any one of these sensations necessarily creates the subject. It's

not one continuous subject which is gathering all these experiences, piling them up together and then saying, This is me, but everything is discontinuous and disconnected. The sound is one. The physical seeing is one. The smelling is one. They come and go. There is no permanent entity there at all. What is there is only a first person singular pronoun, nothing else. If you don't want to use that word it is your privilege. That's all that is there. There is no permanent entity there at all. While you are living, the knowledge that is there does not belong to you. So why are you concerned as to what will happen after what you call you is gone? The physical body is functioning from moment to moment because that is the way the sensory perceptions are. To talk of living from moment to moment by creating a thought-induced state of mind has no meaning to me except in terms of the physical functioning of the body. When thought is not there all the time, what is there is living from moment to moment. It's all frames, millions of frames, to put it in the language of film. There is no continuity there. There is no movement there. Thought can never capture the movement. It is only when you invest a thought with motion you try to capture the movement, but actually thought can never capture any movement that is there around you. The movement of life out there is the movement of life here. They are together always. So thought is essential only for the survival of this living organism. When it is necessary it is there. When it is not necessary the question of whether it is there or not is of no importance at all. You cannot talk of that state in a poetic, romantic language. And one in that state won't be hiding somewhere. He will be there shining like the star. You can't keep such people under a bushel. To be an individual is not an easy thing, you see. That means you are very ordinary. You want to be something other than what you are. To be yourself is very easy. You don't have to do a thing. No effort is necessary. You don't have to exercise will. You don't have to do anything to be yourself, but to be something other than what you are you have to do a lot of things. When there is an actual physical danger, the danger of the extinction of your physical body, then everything that it has as its resource gets thrown into that situation and the body tries to

survive in that particular moment. Have you ever noticed that when there is a real physical danger your thinking mechanism is never there to help you? You can plan ahead for every possible situation and be prepared to meet every kind of situation in your life, but actually when there is a physical danger all your planning and all that you have thought about to be prepared to meet every kind of danger and every kind of situation is just not there. The body has to fall back on its own resources. This living organism is not interested in its continuity in terms of years. This is functioning from moment to moment. The sensory perceptions function from moment to moment. There is no continuity in your physical seeing. There is no continuity in your physical hearing. There is no continuity in your smelling. There is no continuity when you eat something. There is no continuity in the sense of touch. They are all disconnected and disjointed. But thought, in its interest to maintain itself and to continue without any interruption, demands these experiences all the time. That is the only way it can maintain its continuity. The body functions in a completely different way and it is not interested in the activity of thought. The only thought that is necessary for this body is the thought that it has to use for the survival of the living organism. Even if you do not feed this body, it is not concerned about that. It has certain resources which you have built up through years of eating it falls back on. At the same time, it is foolish not to feed the body hoping that you will attain some spiritual goals. That's what they do in India, they put the body through all kinds of stresses and strains, torture it, because they feel that through this endurance they will be able to achieve whatever their spiritual goals may be. There is nothing that you can do to make this happen through any will of yours, through any effort of yours, through any volition of yours. If this kind of a thing happens, it is not something mysterious. Thought falls into its natural rhythm of discontinuous and disconnected functioning, that's all. That's all that is there. Thought will be in harmony with the sensory perceptions and the activity of the senses. There is no conflict there. There is no struggle there. There is no pain there. There is a harmonious relationship between the two. Whenever there is a need for thought, it is always there to act. The action that this body is interested in is only the

action that is essential for the survival of the living organism. Culture has been adopted and accepted as a means of survival, that's all. The society is interested only in fitting every individual into its framework and maintaining its continuity. I don't know if I have made myself clear. The reason why I am emphasizing the physical aspect is not with the idea of selling something but to emphasize and express what you call enlightenment, liberation, transformation, in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. There is absolutely no religious content to it, and no mystical overtones or undertones to the functioning of the body. Unfortunately, for centuries the whole thing has been interpreted in religious terms and that has caused misery for us all. I am not interested in propagating this. This is not something which you can make happen, nor is it possible for me to create that hunger which is essential to understand anything. I am repeating this over and over again but repetition has its own charm. You are assuming that you are hungering for spiritual attainments and you are reaching out for your goals. Naturally, there are so many people in the market place, all these saints, selling all kinds of shoddy goods. They say it is for the welfare of mankind and that they do it out of compassion and all that kind of thing. What I am trying to say is that you are satisfied with the crumbs they throw at you. They promise that one day they are going to deliver to you a full loaf of bread. That is just a promise. They cannot deliver the goods at all. There is no use waiting for something to happen to satisfy your hunger. The hunger has to burn itself up. Literally, it has to burn itself out. It is not because of what you do or what you do not do that this kind of a thing happens. And why it happens to one individual and not another, there is no answer to that question. I assure you that it is not the man who has prepared himself or purified himself for whatever reason to be ready to receive that kind of a thing. It is the other way around. It hits but it hits at random. That is the way nature operates, lightning hits you somewhere. It is not interested in whether it is hitting a tree that is blooming or if it has fruits and is helping the people by providing shade, etc. It just strikes at random. In exactly the same way, it happens to a particular individual. There are so many things happening in nature which cannot be attributed to any particular cause. So your interest in studying the lives or the biography of some of those people whom

you think were enlightened, or godmen, or some such thing, is to find a clue as to how it happened to them so that you can use whatever technique they used and make the same thing happen to you. That is your interest. Those people are giving you techniques, systems and methods which don't work at all. They create the hope that somehow, through some miracle, one day it is going to happen to you, but it will never happen. That is something which you cannot make happen. It is not in your hands. You are waiting for something to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow nothing will happen. Whatever has to happen, that has got to happen now. And the possibility of that happening now is practically and well nigh impossible because the instrument which you are using is the past. Unless the past comes to an end, there can't be any present. And that present moment is something which cannot be captured by you, cannot be experienced by you. Even assuming for a moment that the past has come to an end, you have no way of knowing that it has come to an end. Then there is no future for you at all. You have tried but even those who are burning with hunger find it's impossible. Whenever such a thing has happened it happened to those people who had given up completely and totally all their search. That is an absolute requisite for that kind of a thing. The whole movement has to slow down and come to a stop. But anything you do to make it stop is only adding momentum to it. That's really the crux of the problem. What you are interested in doesn't exist, it's your own imagination based upon the knowledge you have about those things, and so there is nothing that you can do about it. You are chasing something that does not exist at all. I can say that until the cows return home--I don't know when they return home here--or till the kingdom come, but that kingdom will never come. When enlightenment comes it wipes out everything. That is something which cannot be made to happen through your effort or through the grace of anybody, through the help of even a god walking on the face of this earth claiming that he has specially descended from wherever for your sake and for the sake of mankind. That is just absolute gibberish. Nobody can help you. Help you to achieve what? That is the question, you see. As long as your goal is there, these persons, their promises and their techniques will look very attractive to you. There is not anything you must do. You have nothing to get here. I have

nothing to give you. I am not anything that you are not. You think that I am something different. The thought that I am different from others never enters my head; never. Whenever they ask questions I feel, Why are these people asking these questions? How can I make them see? I still have some trace of illusion maybe I can try. Even that try has no meaning to me. There's nothing that I can do about it. There is nothing to get--nothing to give and nothing to get. That is the situation. If you want anything, the one thing that you will do is to set in motion the movement of thought to achieve your goal. Anything you make happen has no meaning at all. Then you will want more experiences and then when you succeed in having them you will demand some kind of a permanent situation, permanent happiness, permanent bliss. Yet there is no such thing as permanence at all. You have no way of knowing what you are at all. Knowing what is there is impossible. That is always related to what you want to be. What you see here is the opposite of what you would like to be, what you want to be, what you ought to be, what you should be. What do you see here? You want to be happy so you are unhappy. Wanting to be happy creates the unhappiness. What you see here is the opposite of your goal of becoming happy, of wanting to be happy. Wanting to have pleasure all the time creates the pain here. So wanting and thinking, they always go together. They are not separate. Anything you want creates pain because you begin to think. If you don't want a thing in this world, there is no thinking. That does not mean thoughts are not there. Whether you want to achieve material goals or spiritual goals it really doesn't matter. I am not saying anything against wanting. The fulfillment or non-fulfillment of the want is possible only through thinking, so the thinking has really created the problem for you. What I am suggesting is that all the problems we have cannot be solved on psychological and ethical levels. Man has tried for centuries to solve them but he has failed. What keeps him going is the hope that one day, by doing more and more of the same, he will succeed. But the body, as I was saying, has a way of resolving these problems because it cannot take them. The sensitivity of the sensory perceptions is destroyed by whatever you are doing to free yourself

from whatever you want to be free from. The nervous system has to be very alert for the survival of this living organism. It has to be very sensitive. Your sensory perceptions have to be very sensitive. Instead of allowing them to be sensitive you have invented what is called the sensitivity of your feelings, the sensitivity of your mind, the sensitivity towards every living thing around you, the sensitivity to the feelings of everybody that is there, and this has created a neurological problem. Society is interested in the status quo. It doesn't want to change. The only way it can maintain the status quo or the continuity is through the demand that everybody should fit into its structure, whereas every individual is unique. Nature is creating something unique all the time. It is not interested in a perfect man. It is not interested in a religious man. We have placed before man the goal or the ideal of a perfect man, a truly religious man. So anything you do to reach that goal of perfection is destroying the sensitivity of this body. It is creating violence here. It is not interested in that. Whatever man experiences--self-awareness, self-consciousness--he has sown the seeds of his total destruction. All those religions have come out of that divisive consciousness in man. All the teachings of those teachers will inevitably destroy mankind. There is no point in reviving all those things and starting revivalistic movements. That is dead, finished. Anything that is born out of this division in your consciousness is destructive is violence. It is so because it is trying to protect not this living organism, not life, but the continuity of thought. And through that it can maintain the status quo of your culture or whatever you want to call it, the society. The problems are neurological. If you give a chance to the body it will handle all those problems, but if you try to solve them on a psychological level or on an ethical level you are not going to succeed. Any energy that you create through thinking is destructive for the body. Energy cannot be separated from life here. It is one continuous movement. So all the energies you experience as a result of playing with all those things are not of any interest to the smooth functioning of this living organism. They are disturbing the harmonious functioning of this body, a very, very peaceful thing.

The peace there is not this inane dead silence you experience. It's like a volcano erupting all the time. That is silence. That is peace. The blood is flowing through your veins like a river. If you tried to magnify the sound of the flow of your blood you will be surprised. It's like the roar of the ocean. The sound of the beat of your heart is something. You create some funny experience called the experience of the silent mind which is ridiculous, absurd. That is the silence that is there--the roar of an ocean. The body is not interested in your practices or silences. It has no interest in your moral dilemma or whatever you want to call it. It's not interested in your virtues or vices. As long as you practice virtues so long you will remain a man of vice. They go together. If you are lucky enough to be free from this pursuit of virtue as a goal, along with it the vice also goes out of your system. You will remain a man of violence as long as you follow some idea of becoming a non-violent, kind, soft, gentle person. A kind man--a man who is practicing kindness and virtue--is really a menace, not the violent man. Somewhere along the line culture has put the whole thing on the wrong track by placing before man the ideal of a perfect man, the ideal of a truly religious man. The religious experience is born out of this division in his consciousness which is not its nature. Luckily, animals don't have this division in their consciousness, except the division that is essential for their survival. Man is worse than an animal, for anything that is born out of thought is destructive; not only destructive to the body but progressively destructive, moving in the direction of destroying everything that man has built for himself. Religion is not going to save man; neither atheism nor communism nor any of those systems. Not only the teachings but the teachers themselves have sown the seeds of this violence that we have in this world. You can't put them on a pedestal and say that they should be exonerated. The man who talked of love is responsible because love and hate go together. So how can you exonerate them? Why do you want to revive religion? What for? I am not condemning any particular thing. All are responsible for that. Talk of love is one of the most absurd things. There must be two. Wherever there is a division there is this destruction. Kindness needs two. You are kind to somebody or you are kind to yourself. There is a division

there in your consciousness. Anything that is born out of that division is a protective mechanism and in the long run it is destructive. Thought is trying to protect itself. That is why it is interested in continuity. The body is not interested in protecting itself. Whatever intelligence is necessary for the survival of the body is already there. The jungle we have created through our organizations needs that intellect, the intellect that we have acquired through our studies, through our culture, through the whole lot. It has a parallel existence of its own and it is interested in a different kind of survival because there is no end to the life here. This is only an expression of life. If you and I go, life goes on. Those lights go off but the electricity continues. Something else will come. It is not interested in man. Mankind, unfortunately, has such destructive powers which have originated in its past experience. So the talk of wanting to look at himself, to understand himself, is a divisive movement in man born out of that self-awareness. That's the foundation upon which the whole psychological structure is built. There is a disturbance in the metabolism of the body brought about through drugs, or through meditation, or through any of those systems and techniques man has invented. You can experience the oneness of life and unity of life. Look at India, which preaches the unity of life and the oneness of life. There you have an example. They are all great metaphysicians, philosophers, everlastingly discussing these things, but it doesn't operate in the lives of the people. Understanding is dualism. If that division is not there, there is nothing to understand. You can talk of intuition. You can talk of a thousand other things. They are all sensitized thoughts. Your understanding of anything is only for the purpose of changing what is there. You begin to think differently and you begin to experience differently but basically there is no change there. Your wanting to understand anything is only for the purpose of bringing about a change there. And at the same time you do not want the change. That has created the neurotic situation in man, wanting two things, change and no change. That is the conflict that is there all the time. Something there determines that all is not right. That's why you want to bring about a change. And who is responsible for that demand to change? Culture, society, has placed the demand

before you; namely, that you should be like that, you ought to be like that. You understand? So you have accepted that as a model for yourself. There is no inner and outer. What I am trying to say is that there is a feeling, there is a demand, that there is something more interesting that you can do with yourself, more meaningful, more purposeful, than your existence is today. That is the demand, you see. That is why there is this restlessness. You become restless because of this drive in you which is put in there by the society or culture that makes you feel that there is something more interesting, more meaningful, more purposeful, that your life can be than what it is today. Your naturalness is destroyed by that demand which is put in there by the culture. So then, your life looks meaningless to you if that is all that you can do. You have tried to fill in that boredom with everything possible. You have all these gimmicks--yoga, meditation and all the psychology. Your naturalness is something that you don't have to know. You just have to let that function in its own way. Your wanting to know that demands some know-how which you want from somebody. The functioning of the heart is a natural thing. The functioning of all the organs in your body is very natural. They are not for one moment asking themselves the question, How am I functioning? The whole living organism has this tremendous intelligence which makes it function in a very natural way. You are not acting in a natural way because the ideal that has been placed before you by the culture has falsified the natural actions here. You are frightened of acting in a natural way because you have been told the way you should act. The things that are there are running very smoothly and mechanically. You don't have to do a thing about them. The more you try the more resistance you create. I am not giving you another gimmick or suggesting anything. I just want you to look at this, what you are doing to yourself, not to free you from something and take you away from that because I have some new product to sell. Not at all, I have no new products to sell nor am I interested in selling anything. We just happen to be here, all of us, for some reason or the other. Ultimately, what I am emphasizing all the time is, Look here, there is nothing to

understand. When that is understood, that there is nothing to understand, all these conversations become meaningless. So you get up and walk away once and for all. I say, Nice meeting you and goodbye. If the question of how to be happy is dropped, then you begin to live, you see, not bothering about happiness at all. The more you want it, the more you search for it, the more unhappy you remain. They go together, you see. All the positive approaches that man has invented and used for centuries, they have not resulted in anything useful. They have not produced the results you have been promised. And yet, you go on and on hoping that somehow, through some miracle, you will be able to achieve your positive goals, or the goals which are placed before us through the positive approach. You keep doing it only because you have hope and it is that hope that keeps you going. Don't be caught up in this structure of thought which always suggests the positive and negative. Your goals are always positive. Since your goals have failed to give the desired results, you have begun to look at these things and approach them in a negative way. The positive and negative approaches function only in the field of thought. Your positive approach so far has not given you the desired results and I am telling you why. I am telling you why you are stuck where you are stuck. But immediately you turn around and say, Your approach is negative. It is not at all negative. I am presenting the other side to neutralize your argument, not to win you over to my point of view or to stress the negative approach to problems. Your goal being a positive goal, no matter what approach you adopt it is a positive approach. You may call it a negative approach but it is still a positive approach. So you must be very clear about the goal. What I am trying to emphasize is that the goal must go. The goal which you have placed before yourself has no meaning at all because it has resulted only in struggle, pain and sorrow. You are using will, as I said a while ago, and the will has a certain limitation. You can't use it beyond a certain limit. The use of your will and the use of your effort gives you a sort of additional energy to tackle these problems and to face these problems but actually it is limited in its scope. The energy that you produce is only a frictional energy. The will creates friction and that friction gives you some sort of energy but that energy cannot last long and so you are back again in square one.

All civilizations, all cultures, place before you a goal, whether material or spiritual. There are ways and means of achieving your material goals but even in this respect there is a lot of pain, there is a lot of suffering. And you have superimposed on that what is called a spiritual goal. Christianity, for example, is built on the foundation of suffering as a means to reach your goal. What you are left with is only the suffering and you make a great big thing out of suffering. And yet, you are not anywhere near the goal, whatever is the nature of your goal, whereas in the material world the goal is something tangible. The instrument which you are using to achieve your material goal does produce certain results. By using that more and more you can achieve the desired results but there is no guarantee. The instrument which you are using is limited in its scope. It is applicable only in this area. So the instrument which you are using to achieve your so-called spiritual goals is the same instrument. You do not realize that all the spiritual goals that are superimposed on your so-called material goals are born out of your fantasy because you have divided life into material and spiritual. It doesn't matter what instrument you use to achieve your goal. Whether it is material or spiritual it is exactly the same. I want you to be very clear about the goal. What do you want? It is not the want that is wrong but the only way you can achieve your material or spiritual goals is through an instrument. What I am suggesting is that the only instrument you have is thinking. See, one wants to be a millionaire, and a millionaire wants to be a billionaire. That is the goal. A happy man would never want to be happy. He wants to be more and more happy or he wants to be permanently happy. Sure, you are happy sometimes and you are unhappy some other times. So you want pleasures and you want those pleasures to be permanent. And at the same time, you also know that the so-called demand for pleasure, temporary or otherwise, is giving you pain as well. The goal of every person in this world is exactly the same. What he wants is to have pleasure, not pain--to be happy, not unhappy. What he is actually struggling and striving hard for is to achieve this impossible goal of having one without the other. If you achieve all the goals you have placed before yourself--success, money, name and fame, position or power--you are happy. In this process, you are struggling hard. You are putting a

lot of will and effort into that. As long as you succeed, you have no problems at all. You cannot always succeed. You know all that but there is somehow the hope that it will be possible for you to always succeed. You are frustrated because you find that you cannot always succeed yet there is still hope. Whether it is for material goals or spiritual goals, the demand is to succeed in your efforts to reach, attain or accomplish whatever goals you have placed before yourself. The body cannot take any sensation, be it pleasurable or painful, for long. It will destroy the sensitivity of the sensory perceptions and the sensitivity of the nervous system. The moment you recognize a particular sensation as a pleasurable sensation, naturally there is a demand to make that pleasurable sensation last longer. So every sensation, depending upon the intensity of that sensation, which is plagued by you to invest it with more intensity or less intensity, has a limited life of its own. The demand comes only when you separate yourself from that pleasurable sensation and begin to think of how you can extend the limits of the pleasurable sensation or the moments of happiness. Your thinking has turned that particular demand to make this pleasurable sensation last longer than its natural duration into a problem. It has turned that into a problem for the functioning of this body and by so doing it has created a neurological problem. It is doing everything possible to absorb that, whereas your thinking makes it impossible for this body to handle that in its own way for the simple reason that you are trying to solve those problems within the field of your religious or psychological approaches. Actually, those problems are neurological problems and if the body is left alone to handle them in its own way it will do a better job than your trying to solve them on psychological or religious levels. All the solutions that we have been offered and which we have been adopting for centuries have not done any good except to give us a little bit of comfort to help you bear the pain. When this understanding dawns on you, then you will realize that the energy that is there in the body, which is the manifestation of life or expression of life, handles everything in a tremendously easier way than the frictional thinking which you are generating through your ideas of how to handle these problems.

You are creating the problems but actually you are not looking at them at all. You are not dealing with them. You are more interested in solutions than the problems. That makes it difficult for you to look at the problem. I am suggesting that, Look here, you don't have any problems. You are not interested in solving the problem because that will put an end to you. You want the problems to remain. You want the hunger to remain because if you are not hungry you will not seek this food from all these holy men. What they are giving you are some scraps, bits of food, and you are satisfied. Even assuming for a moment that he can give you the whole loaf of bread, which he cannot do, he will only promise to keep it here hidden somewhere. Bit by bit he gives you and thereby you are not dealing with the problem of hunger. But you are more interested in getting a bit more from that fellow who is promising you a solution rather than dealing with your problem of hunger. You are more interested in getting some more crumbs from that fellow. You never look at the problem. What is the problem? Anger, for example--where is that anger? Can you separate the anger from the functioning of this body? It's like a wave in the ocean. Can you separate the waves from the ocean? You can sit there and wait until the waves subside so that you can have a swim in the ocean, like King Canute, who sat there for years and years hoping that those waves in the ocean would disappear so that he could have a swim in a calm ocean. That will never happen. You can sit there and learn all about these waves, the high tide and the low tide. The scientists have given us all kinds of explanations but the knowledge about that is not going to be of any help to you. You are not really dealing with anger at all. Where do you feel the anger, first of all? Where do you feel all these so-called problems you want to be free from--the desires, the burning desires? The desire burns you. Hunger burns you. So the solutions you have or the means of fulfilling them is very simple and makes it impossible for that to burn itself out in your system. Where do you feel the fear? You feel it here in the pit of your stomach. It is part of the body. The body cannot take those high and low tides of energy that are there in your body. So you are wanting to suppress them for some spiritual or social reasons. You are not going to succeed.

Anger is energy, a tremendous outburst of energy, and by destroying that energy, through any means, you are destroying the very expression of life itself. It becomes a problem only when you try to do something with that energy. When it is absorbed by the system you will not do the things that you think you will do if the anger is left alone. You are actually not dealing with the anger but the frustration, or avoiding such a situation which has resulted in clumsiness in your relationships or in your understanding of yourself. You want to be prepared to meet such situations as and when they arise in the future. The instrument which you are using has been used by you every time there is an outburst of anger yet you have not succeeded in freeing yourself from the anger. You won't come into the possession of anything extraordinary other than this instrument which you have been using all these years, and at the same time you hope that somehow this very thing will help you to be free from the anger tomorrow. Why are you killing people, thousands of people, for no fault of theirs? Why are you limiting something which is natural but are not condemning the nations that are dropping bombs on helpless people? Do you call them sane? Both of them have sprung from the same source. As long as you do anything to control your anger you will indulge in such atrocious things and justify them because that is the only way to protect your way of life and your way of thinking. These two things go together. Why do you justify that? That is insane. He is not hurting you but he is threatening your way of life. There is a danger of that man taking away what you consider to be your precious things. This idea of stopping this man from acting when there is an outburst of anger is exactly the same. The religious man has found that an angry man will be an antisocial man. As long as he practices virtue, so long he will remain an antisocial man and he will act out of anger. When that goal that the society has placed before you, when that same goal which you adopted for yourself as an ideal goal to be practiced, is finished for you, you will not harm anybody, either individually or collectively as a nation. You have to deal with the anger. You are dealing with something totally unrelated to the anger. Not even once do you let that anger burn itself out within the framework where it originates and functions. Having some therapy of hitting your pillows, hitting this, that and the other, is just a joke. That does not free the

man from the anger once and for all. It will appear again. So what do you do? You are not dealing with anger. You will never deal with this anger at all as long as you are interested in finding out a way of not hitting the person who is coming with a knife. You have to protect yourself. That is essential. I am not saying for a moment that your anger makes it impossible for you to deal with that situation. Don't say that it's non-violence or you should not hurt somebody else. He is hurting you. Even in the Bible it is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You never practice that. Of course, they practice it on a larger scale but in daily life they say it is something terrible to do. I don't see any problem with that at all. There is no point in discussing hypothetical situations for the simple reason that the person who is hopping mad with anger, burning with anger, will not seek and discuss the question of anger. That's the time to deal with those things, when you are really burning with anger, burning with desire, burning with all those things that you want to be free from. Otherwise, it becomes like a classroom discussion--somebody talking on the anatomy of anger, the anatomy of how the anger arises or the anatomy of love. It's too ridiculous. Or they offer solutions which don't work when there is a real situation. That's the reason why I don't discuss all these things. No problem, there's no problem for the individual. When he's mad with anger, that's the time for him to deal with it. It stops the thinking. There is no way of separating yourself from the problem. That's what you are trying to do. That is what I mean by saying that you are putting anger out there and trying to look and deal with it as if it is an object outside of you. When you separate yourself, the only result is exactly what you fear would happen. That is inevitable. So you have no way of controlling that at all. Is there anything that you can do to prevent this separation from what you are? It is a horrible thing to realize that you are yourself anger and whatever you do to stop that, prevent it or do something about it is false. That will be tomorrow or in your next life, not now. So that is what you are. You are not a spiritual man or a religious man. You can imagine that you are a religious man because you are trying to control your anger, or trying to be free from anger, or trying to be less and less angry as the years go by. All that makes you feel that you are not that vicious man whom you avoid. You are no different. You are not any more spiritual than the people

whom you condemn. Tomorrow you are going to be a marvelous person. You will be free from anger. What do you want me to do in the meantime, admire you? Because you have put on the label that you are a spiritual man or you have put on fancy robes? What do you want me to do? For that you want me to admire you? There is nothing there to be admired because you are as vicious as anybody else in this world. Condemning that has no meaning. Adopting a posture which is totally unrelated to what is happening there has no meaning either. The religious has no meaning when you are pushed into a corner. Then you will behave exactly like anybody else. So this culture-- your values, religious or otherwise--haven't touched a bit there. If man is freed from this moral dilemma which has been the basis of the whole thinking of man then he will live like a human being, not a spiritual man, not a religious man. A religious man is no good for the society. A kind man is a menace to the society, one who is practicing kindness as a fine art. All the destruction has come out of them, one who talks of love and one who talks about non-violence. All the destructive forces originated in the thinking of that man. We are all the inheritors of that culture. We cannot do anything but that. You are freed from the burden of this, the falseness of the whole culture, that's all that I am saying. Individually, you are freed from the totality of all the absurdities that have been imposed upon us. So we are here. We are the inheritors of all that violent culture. Our culture is nothing but to teach man how to kill and how to be killed, whether it is in the name of religion, or in the name of political ideology, or in the name of patriotism, or anything you want. I can't be anything different. That is why I said that the whole thing is moving in the direction of the total annihilation of man. Such things have set in motion forces of destruction which no power can stop. No power, no god, can stop it because those gods themselves have set in motion these forces of destruction. You see that now happening. When the cave man used the jawbone of an ass to kill his neighbor there were chances of survival for others. The same cave man who lives there in the White House will set in motion, will let loose forces of destruction, that may completely wipe out every form of life on this planet. It has all come out of that thinking of the man who

taught religion, who wanted to establish love on the face of this earth. And see what has been made out of it! You can stop it in you. Free yourself from that social structure that is operating in you without becoming antisocial, without becoming a reformer, without becoming anti-this, anti-that. You can throw the whole thing out of your system and free yourself from the burden of this culture, for yourself and by yourself. Whether it has any usefulness for society or not is not your concern. If there is one individual who walks free you don't have any more the choking feeling of what this horrible culture has done to you. It's neither East nor West. It's all the same. Human nature is exactly the same. There's no difference. You are only interested in what to do. How can we stop? Individually, there isn't a damn thing that you can do. When that is understood what is there expresses itself. The intelligence that is there can function much more effectively than all the solutions that man has come out with through his thinking which is the result of millions of years. The ideal that we have placed before us, the perfect man, is just a myth. Such a man doesn't exist at all. The ideal man doesn't exist. It is just a word, an idea. All your life you are trying to become that ideal man and what you are left with is misery, suffering and hope. Culture has put the demand in you that is pushing you in the direction of wanting to change yourself into something. That is what the culture has done. If you want to do something, Boy, look here, watch your step. That is what they are doing. The second movement that comes, that is the society, Watch your step, it says. So that has put fear in you. Then at the same time it talks of freeing yourself from fear and courage. That is only for the purpose of using you as a pawn in maintaining the status quo of society. That is why it is teaching courage, it is teaching fearlessness, so that it can use you to maintain the continuity of the society. You are a part of that. That is why every time you want to act what is there is fear and the impossibility of acting. The society is not out there, the culture is not out there, and unless you are free from that you cannot act. Man is not able to act because he is all the time thinking in terms of the freedom to act. How can I be free to act? That's all that you are concerned about, the freedom. But you are not acting that freedom. The demand for the freedom to act is preventing the action, which is neither social nor antisocial.

You want to bring about a change in yourself. The change is the demand of the society so that you can become a part of that and maintain the continuity of the social structure. When the demand for bringing about any change in you ceases then the concern to change the world around you also comes to an end, ipso facto. You are living in a world of your own. You have created a world of your own experiences and you are trying to project it onto the world. You have no way of experiencing the reality of the world at all. We have to accept all these things as valid because they are workable. They help us to function in this world, to communicate intelligently on that level. What I am suggesting is that there is no such thing as spirituality at all. If you superimpose what you call spirituality on what is called material life then you create problems for yourself. Because you see growth and development in the material world around you, you are applying that to this so-called spiritual life also. There is only one life. This is a material life and that other has no relevance. Wanting to change your material life into that so-called religious pattern given to you, placed before you by these religious people, is destroying the possibility of your living in harmony and accepting the reality of this material world exactly the way it is. That is responsible for your pain, for your suffering, for your sorrow. It is a constant struggle on your part to be like that and to chase something that does not exist and that has no meaning at all. That gives you the feeling that doing is all that is important for you, not the actual achievement of that. You are moving farther and farther away. The more effort you put into it the more you feel good.

Chapter Three: 1983-1984 -- Amsterdam You are affected by nothing, having erected an impenetrable armor around yourself. You feel nothing. Unable to understand your situation, you react through thought, which is your ideas and mentations. Reaction is thought. The pain you are going through there is clearly reflected without having to experience the pain here. Here there is no experience at all, that is all. In this natural state you feel the pain of others whether you personally know them or not. Recently my eldest son was dying of cancer in a hospital nearby. I was in the area and visited him often.

Friends said that I was in intense pain during the whole time until he died. Suffering is an experience and there is no experience here. You are not one thing and life another. It is one unitary movement and anything I say about it is misleading, confusing. You are not a person, not a thing, not a discrete entity surrounded by other things. The unitary movement is not something which you can experience. What I am saying conflicts with your logical framework. You are using logic to continue that separative structure, that is all. Your questions are again thoughts and therefore reactive. All thought is reactive. You are desperately protecting this armor, this shield of thought, and are frightened that the movement of life might smash your frontiers. Life is like a river in spate lashing at the banks, threatening the limits that have been placed around it. Your thought structure and your actual physiological framework are limited but life itself is not. That is why life in freedom is painful to the body. The tremendous outburst of energy that takes place here is a painful thing to the body, blasting every cell as it goes. You cannot imagine how it is in your wildest dreams. This is why it is misleading no matter how I put it. Your belief in a unitary movement of life is just a groundless belief, lacking any certainty. You have cleverly rationalized what the gurus and holy books have taught you. Your beliefs are the result of blind acceptance of authority, all secondhand stuff. You are not separate from your beliefs. When your precious beliefs and illusions come to an end, you come to an end. My talking is nothing more than the response to your pain which you are expressing through questions, logical arguments and other mentations. There is nobody here talking, giving advice, feeling pain, or experiencing anything at all. I have nothing here of my own, no obvious or hidden agenda, no product to sell, no axe to grind, nothing to prove. The body is not concerned with the afterlife or any kind of permanency. It struggles to survive and multiply now. The fictitious beyond, created by thought out of fear, is really the demand for more of the same in modified form. This demand for repetition of the same thing over and over again is the demand for permanence. Such permanence is foreign to the body. Thought's demand for permanence is choking the body and distorting perception. Thought sees itself as not just the protector of its own continuity but also of the body's continuity. Both are utterly

false. You will continue doing what you are doing. Its meaninglessness does not even occur to you. I tell you, when you stop doing things out of hope and the desire for continuity, all you do along with it stops. You will stay afloat. But still the hope remains there, There must be some way, perhaps I am not doing it the right way. In other words, we have to accept the absurdity of depending upon anything. We must face our helplessness. Your problems continue because of the false solutions you have invented. If the answers are not there the questions cannot be there. They are interdependent. Your problems and solutions go together. Because you want to use certain answers to end your problems, those problems continue. The numerous solutions offered by all these holy people--the psychologists, the politicians--are not really solutions at all. That is obvious. If there were legitimate answers there would be no problems. They can only exhort you to try harder, practice more meditations, love, and more and more of the same. That is all they can do. The teacher, guru or leader who offers solutions is also false, along with his so-called answers. He is not doing any honest work, only selling a cheap, shoddy commodity in the marketplace. If you brushed aside your hope, fear and naivet, and treated these fellows like businessmen, you would see that they do not deliver the goods and never will. But you go on and on buying these bogus wares offered up by the experts. All their philosophies cannot compare to the native wisdom of the body itself. What they are calling mental activity, spiritual activity, emotional activity and feelings are really all one unitary process. This body is highly intelligent and does not need these scientific or theological teachings to survive and procreate. Take away all your fancies about life, death and freedom, and the body remains unscathed, functioning harmoniously. It does not need your or my help. You don't have to do a thing. The body knows that it will come to an end in that particular form only to continue on in others. Those leaders who would direct your spiritual life cannot be honest about these things for they make a living out of fear, speculations about future life and the mystery of death. And as for you, the followers, you are not really interested in the future of man, only in your own

petty little destinies. You are all neurotic people. You talk against birth control, drone on and on about the preciousness of life, then bomb and massacre. It is too absurd. You are concerned with an unborn life while you are killing thousands and thousands of people by bombing, starvation, poverty and terrorism. Your concern about life is only to make a political issue out of it. It is just an academic discussion. Are you interested in the future of mankind? Your expressions of anger, righteousness and caring have no meaning to me. It is just a ritual. You sit and talk, that's all. You are not at all angry. If you were angry at this moment you would not ask this question even to yourself. You sit everlastingly talking of anger. The angry wouldn't talk about it. The body has already acted with regard to that anger by absorbing it. The anger is burnt, finished then and there. You don't do anything. The body just absorbs it, that is all. If all this is too much for you, if it depresses you, don't ever go to the holy men. Do anything but don't expect the holy business to help you. It is a waste of time. All moral, spiritual, ethical values are false. The psychologists, searching for a pragmatic way out, are now at the end of their tethers, even turning to the spiritual people for answers. They are lost and yet the answers must come from them, not from the encrusted, useless traditions of the holy business. The so-called messiahs have left nothing but misery in this world. If a modern messiah came before you, he would be unable to help you at all. And if he can't help no one can. Truth is a movement. You can't capture it, contain it, give expression to it or use it to advance your interests. The moment you capture it, it ceases to be the truth. What is the truth for me is something that cannot, under any circumstances, be communicated to you. The certainty here cannot be transmitted to another. For this reason, the whole guru business is absolute nonsense. This has always been the case, not just now. Your self-denial is to enrich the priests. Those in the holy business thrive on the stupidity and credulity of others. The politicians, similarly, thrive on the gullibility of man. It is the same everywhere. When you die, the body is in a prostrate position. It stops functioning and that is the end of it. But in this case, the body somehow renewed itself. It happens daily as a matter of course now.

The whole process took years to stabilize. For me, life and death are one, not two separate things. Just let me warn you that if what you are aiming at, enlightenment, really happens you will die. There will be a physical death because there has to be a physical death to be in that state. It is like playing around with controlling your breath because you find it amusing. But if you hold the breath long enough you choke to death. To describe that state as a meditative state full of awareness is romantic hogwash. Awareness-what a fantastic gimmick used to fool themselves and others. You can't be aware of every step. You only become self-conscious and awkward if you try. I once knew a man who was a harbor pilot. He had been reading about passive awareness and attempted to put it into practice. For the first time he nearly wrecked the ship he was guiding. Walking is automatic and if you try to be aware of every step you will go crazy. So don't invent meditative steps. Things are bad enough. The meditative state is worse. Any remedy I offered you would become part of your search, that is, more romantic stuff. That is why I never tire of saying that I have no wares to sell, much less offer you new and better methods, whereby you can continue your search. I deny the validity of that search entirely. If your meditations, methods and techniques meant anything you wouldn't be here asking these questions. They are all means for you to bring about change. I maintain that there is nothing to change or transform. You accept that there is something to change as an article of faith. You never question the existence of the one who is to be changed. The whole mystique of enlightenment is based upon the idea of transforming yourself. I cannot convey or transmit my certainty that you, and all the authorities down through the centuries, are false. They, and the spiritual goods they peddle, are utterly false. There is no particular charm in being antisocial. I don't give people what they want. When they realize they will not get what they want here they invariably go away. As they are leaving for the last time I like to add the rider, You won't get it anywhere. When people come to talk they find themselves confronted with silence itself. That is why everybody who comes is automatically silent thereafter. If he cannot stand the silence and insists upon talking and

discussing things he will be forced to disagree and walk out. But if you stay long you will be silenced, not because it is over-persuasive, more rational than you are, but because it is silence itself silencing that movement there. That silence burns everything here. All experiences are burnt. That is why talking to people doesn't exhaust me. It is energy to me. That is why I can talk for the whole day without showing any fatigue. Talking with so many people over the years has had no impact upon me. All that I or they have said is burnt here, leaving no trace. This is not, unfortunately, the case with you. Any action that takes place at the conscious level of your thinking existence is a reaction. The one and only action is the response of this living organism to the stimuli around it. That stimulus-response process is a unitary phenomenon. There is no division between action and reaction except when thought interferes and artificially separates them. Otherwise, it is an automatic, unitary process and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Just as in reality there is no separation of action and reaction, so there is no room for the religious man in the natural scheme of things. The fresh movement of life threatens his source of power and prestige. Still, he does not want to retire. He must be thrown out. Religion is not a contractual arrangement, either public or private. It has nothing to do with the social structure or its management. Religious authority wants to continue its hold on the people but religion is entirely an individual affair. I am simply pointing out the absurdity of this conversation. Once you get the hang of it you just go. I have no message to give mankind. We have set in motion irreversible forces. We have polluted the sky, the waters, everything. Only technology progresses, while we as a race are moving closer to complete and total destruction of ourselves and the world. Everything in man's consciousness is pushing the whole world, which nature has so laboriously created, towards destruction. There has been no qualitative change in man's thinking. We feel about our neighbors just as the frightened cave man felt towards his. The only thing that has changed is our ability to destroy our neighbor and his property. Violence is an integral part of the evolutionary process. That violence is essential for the

survival of the living organism. You can't condemn the hydrogen bomb for it is an extension of the policeman there and your desire to be protected. Where do you draw the line? You can't. We have no way of reversing the whole thing. Love and hate are the same. They have together resulted in massacre, murder, assassination and wars. This is a matter of history, not my opinion. It is the same thing everywhere. All our political systems have come out of that religious thinking, whether of the East or of the West. In light of these facts, how can you have any faith in religion? What is the good of reviving the whole past, the useless past? It is because your living has no meaning to you that you dwell on the past. You are not even drifting. You have no direction at all. You are just floating. Obviously, there is no purpose to your life, otherwise you would not live in the past. What has not helped you cannot help anybody. No matter what I am saying, you are the medium of expression. You have already captured what I am saying and are making of it a new ideology and means to attain something. What I am trying to say is that you must discover something for yourself. But do not be misled into thinking that what you find will be of use to society, that it can be used to change the world. You are finished with society, that is all. God is the ultimate pleasure, uninterrupted happiness. No such thing exists. Your wanting something that does not exist is the root of your problem. Transformation, liberation and all that stuff are just variations on the same theme, permanent happiness. The body cannot take that. The pleasure of sex, for instance, is by nature temporary. The body can't take uninterrupted pleasure for long. It would be destroyed. Wanting to impose a fictitious, permanent state of happiness on the body is a serious neurological problem. It never strikes you that the enlightenment and God you are after is just the ultimate pleasure, a pleasure, moreover, which you have invented. If I narrate the story of my life it is as if I am describing somebody else's life. There is no attachment, sentiment or emotional content for me when I consider my life. You get the wrong impression if you think I harbor any private, precious thoughts or feelings regarding my past.

What is the difference whether or not you find this freedom, this enlightenment, or not? You will not be there to benefit from it. What possible good can this state do you? This state takes away everything you have. While living, the body has died. Somehow, the body, having gone through death, is kept alive. Here you lose everything. I am only saying that you must go find out for yourself if there is anything behind these meaningless abstractions being thrown at you, all the abstract, mystical terms used to seduce gullible people. Life has to be described in pure and simple physical and physiological terms. It must be demystified and depsychologized. Don't talk of higher centers and chakras. It is not these but glands that control the human body. It is the glands that give the instructions for the functioning of this organism. In your case, you have introduced an interloper, thought. In your natural state, thought ceases to control anything. It comes into temporary function when a challenge is put before it, immediately falling into the background when it is no longer needed. Forget about the ideal society and the ideal human being. Just look at the way you are functioning, that is the important thing. What has prevented the organism from fully flowering into its own uniqueness is culture. It has placed the wrong thing, the ideal person, before man. The whole thing is born out of the divisive consciousness of mankind. It has brought us nothing but violence. That is why no two gurus or saviors ever agree. Each is intent upon preaching his own nonsense. You want to know. You believe that in knowing my story you will be able to duplicate what happened to me. You, having been brainwashed all your life, can only think in terms of imitation. You think that somehow you can repeat what happened to me, that is all. That is your motive for coming. It is not a new approach to that religious stuff. It is completely different. It has absolutely nothing to do with all that romantic, spiritual, religious stuff. If you translate what I am saying into religious terms you are missing the point entirely. Religion, God, soul, are all just words, ideas used to keep your psychological continuity intact. When these thoughts are not there, what is left is the simple, harmonious physical functioning of the organism. I am able to describe the way this organism is functioning because your question has created

the challenge here. Your questions create the conditions necessary for this response to happen. So it is describing itself, but that is not the way it is functioning. It functions in a state of not knowing. I never ask myself how I am functioning. I never question my actions before, during or after they occur. You can't fit me into a category. Any attempt on your part to translate what I am saying into your religious framework is to miss the point. I am not one of your holy men who say, I am hanging so come hang with me. All that stuff is a form of madness. Your intellectual understanding, in which you have a tremendous investment, has not done one damn thing for you so far. You persist in the cultivation of this intellectual understanding knowing all the while that it has never helped you at all. This is amazing. When hoping and attempting to understand is not there then life becomes meaningful. Life, your existence, has a tremendous living quality about it. All your notions about love, infinite bliss and peace only block this natural energy of existence. How can I make you understand that what I am describing has absolutely nothing to do with all that religious stuff? It is really something. It is no good throwing all this junk at me. Whatever hits this is immediately burnt. That is the nature of the energy here. The spiritual people are the most dishonest people. I am emphasizing that foundation upon which the whole of spirituality is built. If there is no spirit then the whole talk of spirituality is bosh and nonsense. You can't come into your own being until you are free from the whole thing surrounding the concept of self. To be really on your own, the whole basis of spiritual life, which is erroneous, has to be destroyed. It does not mean that you become fanatical or violent, burning down temples, tearing down the idols, destroying the holy books like a bunch of drunks. It is not that at all. It is a bonfire inside of you. Everything that mankind has thought and experienced must go. The incredible violence in the world today has been created by the Jesuses and Buddhas. It is the ones who believe in God, who preach peace and talk of love, who have created the human jungle. Compared to man's jungle, nature's jungle is simple and sensible! The so-called civilized man kills for ideals and beliefs while the animals kill only for survival. Because man is worse than other animals it made it necessary and possible for him to create the moral dilemma. When man first experienced the division in his consciousness, when he experienced

his self-consciousness, he felt superior to other animals, which he is not, and therein sowed the seeds of his own destruction. Awareness is not a divided state. There are not two states, awareness and something else. There are not two things. It is not that you are aware of something. Awareness is simply the action of the brain. The idea that you can use awareness to bring about some happier state of affairs, some sort of transformation or God-knows-what, is absurd. Awareness cannot be used to bring about a change in yourself or the world around you. All this rubbish about the conscious and the unconscious, awareness and the self, is all a product of modern psychology. The idea that you can use awareness to get somewhere psychologically is very damaging. After more than a hundred years we seem unable to free ourselves from the psychological rubbish, Freud and the whole gang. Just what exactly do you mean by consciousness? You are conscious, aware, only through thought. The other animals use thought. The dog, for example, can recognize its owner in a simple manner. They recognize without using language. Humans have added to the structure of thought, making it much more complex. Thought is not yours or mine. It is our common inheritance. There is no such thing as your mind and my mind. There is only mind, the totality of all that has been known, felt and experienced by man, handed down from generation to generation. We are all thinking and functioning in that thought sphere just as we all share the same atmosphere for breathing. The thoughts are there to function and communicate in this world sanely and intelligently. Knowledge--that is all that is there. The self is nothing more than the totality of the inherited knowledge passed on to us from generation to generation. You teach the child to distinguish between colors, to read, to imitate manners. It is relative to each culture. Gestures and expressions constituted the first language. Later, words were added on. We still use gestures to supplement our spoken words because we feel that words alone are inadequate to fully express what we want to convey. All this is not to say that we can really know anything about thought. We can't. You become conscious of thought only when you make it an object of thought. Otherwise, you don't even

know you are thinking. We use thought only to understand something out there, to remember something or to achieve something. Otherwise, we don't even know if thought is there or not. Thought is not separate from the movement of thought. Thought is action and without it you cannot act. There is no such thing as pure, spontaneous, thought-free action at all. To act is to think. You have a self-starting, self-perpetuating mechanism which I call the self. This does not mean that there is actually an entity there. I do not want or mean to give that connotation to that word. Where is this ego or self that you talk of? Your non-existent self has heard of spirituality and bliss from someone. To experience this thing called bliss you feel you must control your thoughts. It is impossible. You will burn yourself and die if you attempt it. The demand for more and more experience constitutes your present, which is born out of the past. If that is seen, there is no future at all. Any achievement you are interested in is in the future. The only way that the future can come into operation is in the present moment. Unfortunately, in the present moment what is in operation is the past. Your past is creating your future. In the past you were happy or unhappy, foolish or wise. In the future you will be the opposite. When the past is not in operation there is no present at all, for what you are calling the present is the past repeating itself. In an actual state of here and now there is no past in operation and therefore no future. The only way the past can survive and maintain its continuity is through the constant demand to experience the same thing over and over. That is why life has become a bore. Life has become boring because we have made of it a repetitive thing. So what we mistakenly call the present is really the repetitive past projecting a fictitious future. Your goals, your search, your aspirations, are cast in that mold. From your knowledge out of the past you ask questions and the very motive of your asking is only to gain more knowledge from someone else so that your knowledge structure can continue. You are really not interested in this at all. Your knowledge coming to an end means that you are coming to an end. Where, you ask, is this knowledge, the past? Is it in your brain? Where is it? It is all over your body. It is in every cell of your body. It doesn't matter what the object of that search is--God, a beautiful woman, whatsoever--it is

all the same search and that hunger will never be satisfied. That hunger must burn itself out completely without knowing satisfaction. The thirst you have must burn itself out without being quenched. It dawns on you that this is not the way and it is finished. What I am emphasizing is that we are trying to solve our basic human problems through a psychological framework when actually the problem is neurological. The body is involved. Take desire. As long as there is a living body, there will be desire. It is natural. Thought has interfered and tried to suppress, control and moralize about desire to the detriment of mankind. We are trying to solve the problem of desire through thought. It is thinking that has created the problem. You somehow continue to hope and believe that the same instrument can solve your other problems as well. You hope against hope that thought will pull you through but you will die in hope just as you have lived in hope. That is the refrain of my doom song. Unless you are free from the desire of all desires--liberation or self-realization--you will be miserable. The ultimate goal which society has placed before us is the one that has to go. Until you are free from that desire you cannot be free from any of your miseries. By suppressing these desires you are not going to be free. This realization is the essential thing, going as it does to the crux of the problem. It is society that has placed before us the desire for freedom, the desire for liberation, the desire for God, the desire for self-realization. That is the desire you must be free from. Then all these other desires fall into their own natural rhythm. You suppress these desires only because you are afraid society will punish you if you act on them or because you see them as obstacles to your main desire, freedom. If this kind of thing should happen to you, you will find yourself back in a primeval state, without primitivity and without any volition on your part. It just happens. Such a free man is not in conflict with society any more. He is not antisocial, not at war with the world. He sees that it can't be any the different. He doesn't want to change society at all. The demand for change has ceased. Any doing in any direction is violence. Any effort is violence. Anything you do with thought to create a peaceful state of mind is using force and so is violent. Such an approach is absurd. You are trying to enforce peace through violence. Meditation is violent.

The living organism is very peaceful. You don't have to do a thing. The peacefully functioning body doesn't give a damn for your ecstasies or blissful states. People have abandoned the natural intelligence of the body. All I am saying is that the peace you are seeking is already inside you in the harmonious functioning of the body. Anything you do to free yourself from anything, for whatever reason, is destroying the sensitivity, clarity and freedom that is already there. There is no question of your seeing things as they are. You can't see things as they are. You never leave any experience or feeling you have alone. You have to capture and interpret that feeling within the framework of the known. You are happy or unhappy only as you have knowledge about and experience of happiness and unhappiness. So everything has to be brought within the framework of the known before you can experience it. The movement of the known is gathering momentum within you. Its only interest is to continue. There is no entity, nothing there to give itself continuity. It is just the movement of thought, the selfperpetuating separation. It is mechanical. Anything you try to do about it only adds momentum to it. It is the desire to reach a particular goal, an all important goal, that must go, not the countless petty little desires. The only reason you try to manipulate or control the petty desires is that such control is a part of your strategy to attain the highest goal, the desire of all desires. Eliminate that main goal and the others fall into a natural pattern and pose no problem for you or for the world. You won't get anywhere by trying to endlessly control and manipulate these numerous desires. It is vicious in its nature. The so-called highest goal is like the horizon. The further you move towards it the further it recedes. The goal, like the horizon, is not really there. It is a projection of your own fear and it moves away from you as you pursue it. How can you keep up with it? There is nothing that you can do. Still, it is desire that keeps you moving. No matter in which direction you move, it is the same. What you experience through your separative consciousness is an illusion. You can't say that falling bombs are an illusion. It is not an illusion. Only your experience of it is an illusion. The

reality of the world that you are experiencing now is an illusion. That is all I am trying to say. There is no such thing as absolute. It is thought and thought alone that has created the absolute. Absolute zero, absolute power, absolute perfection, these have been invented by the holy men and experts. They kidded themselves and others. Down the centuries, the saints, saviors and prophets of mankind have kidded themselves and everybody else. Perfection and absolutes are false. You are trying to imitate and relate your behavior according to these absolutes and it is falsifying you. You are actually functioning in an entirely different way. You are brutal. You feel you must be peaceful. It is contradictory. That's all I'm pointing out. The certainty that dawned upon me is something which cannot be transmitted. It does not mean that I am superior, a chosen one, one in whom all the virtues are rolled into one, not at all. I am just an ordinary man and have nothing to do with it. This certainly blasts everything including the claims of the so-called religious. What I am trying to put across is that there is no such thing as God. It is the mind that out of fear has created God. Fear is passed on from generation to generation. What is there is fear, not God. If you are lucky enough to be free from fear then there is no God. There is no ultimate reality, no God, nothing. Fear itself is the problem, not God. Wanting to be free from fear is itself fear. You see, you love fear. The ending of fear is death and you don't want that to happen. I am not talking of wiping out the phobias of the body. They are necessary for survival. The death of fear is the only death. You are blind. You see nothing. When you actually do see and perceive for the first time that there is no self to realize, no psyche to purify, no soul to liberate, it will come as a tremendous shock to that instrument. You have invested everything in that--the soul, mind, psyche, whatever you wish to call it--and suddenly it is exploded as a myth. It is difficult for you to look at reality, at your actual situation. One look does the trick. You are finished. I don't see anything other than the physical activity of the body. Spirituality is the invention of the mind and the mind is a myth. Your traditions are choking you but, unfortunately, you don't do anything. You actually love being choked. You love the burden of the cultural garbage

sack, the dead refuse of the past. It has to drop away naturally. It just drops. You don't depend upon knowledge anymore except as a useful tool to function sanely in this world. Wanting has to go. Wanting to be free from something that is not there is what you call sorrow. Sorrow is there for you as long as you think. There is actually no sorrow there to be free from. Thinking about and struggling against sorrow is sorrow. Since you can't stop thinking, and thinking is sorrow, you will always suffer. There is no way out, no escape. Suppose I say that this meaninglessness is all there is for you, all there can ever be for you. What will you do? The false and absurd goal you have before you is responsible for that dissatisfaction and meaninglessness in you. Do you think life has any meaning? Obviously, you don't. You have been told that there is meaning, that there must be a meaning to life. Your notion of the meaningful keeps you from facing this issue and makes you feel that life has no meaning. If the idea of the meaningful is dropped then you will see meaning in whatever you are doing in daily life. Whatever you want, even the so-called spiritual goals, is materialistic in value. What, if I may ask, is so spiritual about it? If you want to achieve a spiritual goal, the instrument you use will be the same which you use to achieve materialistic goals, namely thought. You don't actually do anything about it. You just think. So you are just thinking that there must be some purpose to life. And because thought is matter, its object, the spiritual or meaningful life, is also matter. Spirituality is materialism. In any event, you do not act, you just think, which is to postpone. There is simply nothing else thought can do. That instrument called thought, which you are employing to achieve your so-called spiritual goals, is the result of the past. Thought is born in time, it functions in time and any results it seeks are bound to be in and of time also. And time is postponement, the tomorrow. Understanding your goal is the main thing. To achieve that goal implies struggle, battle, effort, will, that is all. There is no guarantee that you will reach your goal. You assume the goal is there. You have invented the goal to give yourself hope but hope means tomorrow. Hope is necessary for tomorrow, not for today. You want more knowledge so you can develop better techniques for reaching your goal. You know that there is no guarantee that more experience, more knowledge, more systems and more methods will help you reach your goal yet you

persist. It is all you know how to do. Seeing today demands action. Seeing tomorrow involves only hope. The energy you are devoting to the search, or whatever you wish to call it, is taking away the energy you need to live. You are obsessed with finding meaning in life and that is consuming a lot of energy. If that energy is released from the search for meaning it can be used to see the futility of all search. Then your life becomes meaningful and the energy may be used for some useful purpose. Life, the so-called material life, has a meaning of its own, but you have been told that it is devoid of meaning and have superimposed a fictitious layer of spiritual meaning over it. There is nothing to be achieved, nothing to accomplish. Here there is no need to sit in special postures and control your breath. Even while my eyes are open, in fact no matter what I am doing, I am in a state of moksha. The knowledge you have about moksha is what is keeping you away from it. Moksha comes after the ending of all you have ever known, at death. The body has to become like a corpse before that knowledge, which is locked into every cell in the body, ceases. Your highly praised inventiveness springs from your thinking, which is essentially a protective mechanism. The mind has invented both religion and dynamite to protect what it regards as its best interests. There is no good or bad in this sense. Don't you see? All these bad, brutal, terrible people who should have been eliminated long ago are thriving and successful. Don't think that you can get off this merry-go-round or that by pretending to be spiritually superior you are avoiding any complicity. You are that. There is no love in the world. Everybody wants the same thing. Whosoever is the most ruthless gets it, as long as he can get away with it. Getting what you want in this world is a relatively easy thing if you are ruthless enough. I had everything a man could want, every kind of desirable experience, and it all failed me. Therefore, I can never recommend my path to anyone, having eventually faced the falseness of that path myself and rejected it. I would never even hint that there was any validity in all those experiences and practices.

The prophets were all wrong, as far as I am concerned. As long as you harbor any hope or faith in these authorities, living or dead, so long this certainty cannot be transmitted to you. This certainty somehow dawns on you when you see for yourself that all of them are wrong. When you see all this for yourself for the first time you explode. That explosion hits life at a point that has never been touched before. It is absolutely unique. So whatever I may be saying cannot be true for you. The moment you see it for yourself, you make what I am saying obsolete and false. All that came before is negated in that fire. You can't come into your own uniqueness unless the whole of human experience is thrown out of your system. It cannot be done through any volition or the help of anything. Then you are on your own. When once you are freed from the pairs of opposites--right and wrong, good and bad--you will never be wrong. But until then the problem will be there. It is like accidentally touching a live wire. You are much too frightened to touch it through your own volition. By sheer accident, this thing touches you, burning everything. It burns out this search, the hunger. The hunger stops, not because it is satisfied. The hunger can never be satiated, especially by the traditional food that is offered. With the burning away of that hunger the duality ceases, that is all. My interest is not to knock off what others have said (that is too easy) but to knock off what I am saying. More precisely, I am trying to stop what you are making out of what I am saying. This is why my talking sounds contradictory to others. I am forced by the nature of your listening to always negate the first statement with another statement. Then the second statement is negated by a third and so on. My aim is not some comfy dialectical thesis but the total negation of everything that can be expressed. Anything you try to make out of my statements is not it. You sense a freshness, a living quality, to what is being said here. That is so, but this cannot be used for anything. It is worthless. All you can do with it is to try to organize it, create organizations, open schools, publish holy books, celebrate birthdays, sanctify holy temples and the like, thus destroying any life it may have had in it. No individual can be helped by such things. They only help those who would live by the gullibility of others.

There was an outburst of energy which is utterly different from the energy that is born out of thinking. All spiritual, mystical experiences are born out of thought. They are thought-induced states, nothing more. The energy here that is burning all thought as it arises tends to accumulate, eventually it has to escape. The physical limitations of the body act as obstacles to the escape of this unique energy. When it escapes it goes up, never down, and never returns. When this extraordinary energy, which is atomic, escapes it causes tremendous pain. It is not the pain you are familiar with. It has nothing to do with it. If it did, the body would be shattered. It is not matter converting into energy. It is atomic. The process goes on and on while the pain comes and goes. It is like the tremendous relief when a tooth is extracted. That is the kind of relief that is there, not the spiritual. The translation of this as bliss is very misleading. Through thought anyone can create those experiences but it is not actually bliss. The real thing is not something that can be experienced. Anything you can experience is old. That means everything you experience or understand is tradition. In other words, I am trying to free you not from the past, the conditioning, but rather from what I am saying. I am not suggesting any way out because there is no way. I have stumbled into this and freed myself from the paths of others. I can't make the same mistake they did. I will never suggest that anyone use me as a model or follow in my footsteps. My path can never be your path. If you attempt to make this your path you will get caught in a rut. No matter how refreshing, revolutionary or fantastic, it is still a rut, a copy, a secondhand thing. I myself do not know how I stumbled into this so how do you expect me to give it to another? My mission, if there is any, is to debunk every statement I have ever made. If you take seriously and try to use or apply what I have said you will be in danger. Moksha cannot be transmitted to another because there is nothing there to transmit. Neither is there anything to renounce. What is it that these teachers suggest you should renounce? Even your scripture, the Kathopanishad, says that you must renounce the very search itself. The renunciation of renunciation happens not through practice, discussion, money or intellect. These are the least of things. A rough translation of the original Sanskrit is, Whomsoever it chooses, to him it is revealed. If this is so then where is the room for practices and volition?

It comes randomly, not because you deserve it. If you are lucky enough to have this dawn on you, you die. The continuity of thought dies. The ending of thought is the beginning of physical death. What you experience is the emptiness of the void. Just wanting to be free of egoism is insufficient. You must go through a clinical death to be free from thought and egoism. The body will actually get stiff, the heartbeat slows and you will become corpse-like. The ideas you have about that natural state are totally unrelated to what it actually is. You are trying to capture and give expression to what you hope is that state. It is an absurd exercise. What is there is only the movement to capture, nothing else. All the rest is speculation. Knowledge is not something mysterious or abstract. Knowledge is just naming things. The knowledge you have of the world creates the objects you are experiencing. The actual existence or non-existence of something out there in the world is not something you can determine or experience for yourself except through the help of knowledge, and this knowledge is not yours. It is something which you and your ancestors have accumulated over a long time. What you call the act of knowing is nothing other than this accumulated memory. You have personally added to and modified that knowledge but essentially it doesn't belong to you at all. There is nothing there inside you but the totality of this knowledge you have accumulated. That is what you are. You cannot even directly experience the reality of the world in which you are functioning, much less some world beyond. There is no world beyond space and time. It is your invention based upon the vague promises of the holy men. Our sense of value springs from the world as it is imposed on us. We must accept the world. Tradition is what you are, what you call you. No matter how you may modify it, it continues. In life, everything is temporary, and the attempt to give continuity to conditioning, which is based upon thought, is pathological in nature. You treat the psychological and the pathological as if they were two different things. Actually, there is only the pathological there. Your conditioning that makes you feel separate from yourself and the world is pathological. All your actions spring from the same source, thinking. The thoughts themselves cannot do

any harm. It is when you attempt to use, censor and control those thoughts to get something that your problems begin. You have no recourse but to use thought to get what you want in this world, but when you seek to get what does not exist--God, bliss, love, etc.--through thought you only succeed in pitting one thought against another, creating misery for yourself and the world. When the thought structure, pressed into the service of fear and hope, cannot achieve what it wants, or cannot be certain, it introduces what you call faith. When your beliefs have gotten you nowhere you are told you must cultivate faith. In other words, you must have hope. Whether you are seeking God or bliss, peace of mind or, more tangibly, happiness, you end up relying on hope, belief and faith. These dependencies are the tokens of your failure to get the results you desire. Every thought that is born has to die. If a thought does not die it cannot be reborn. It has to die and with it you die. But instead of dying with each thought and breath, you hook up each thought with the next, creating a false continuity. It is that continuity that is the problem. Your insecurity springs from your refusal to face the temporary nature of thought. It is a little easier to talk to those who have meditated because they experience the futility of it and can see where they are hung up. Your morality, or the lack of it, is of no importance compared to the fact that you are dead. You are always operating in and through your dead memory. Memory is nothing more than the same old nonsense repeating itself, that's all. All you know or can ever know is memory, and memory is thought. Your ceaseless thinking is only giving you continuity. Why do you have to do that all the time? It is not worth it. You are wearing yourself out. When there is a need for it one can understand. You are mulling over the future or the past all the time, oblivious to the present. There is no future in relation to your problem. Any solution you think of is in the future and is therefore useless. If there is anything that can happen it must happen now. Since you don't want anything to happen now you push it away into something you have named the future. What you have in place of the present is fear. Then begins the whole exhausting search for a way to

be free from fear. Do you really want this kind of freedom? Anything you want to be free from, for whatever reason, is the very thing that can free you. You are always dealing with a pair of opposites, so being free of one is to be free from the other, its opposite. Within the framework of the opposites there is no freedom. That is why I always say, You haven't got a chance. Likewise, the man who is not concerned with morality will not be interested in immorality. The answer to selfishness lies in selfishness, not a fictitious opposite called selflessness. Freedom from anger lies in anger, not in non-anger. Freedom from greed lies in greed, not in non-greed. The whole religious business is nothing but moral codes of conduct. You must be generous, compassionate, loving, while all the time you remain greedy and callous. Codes of conduct are set by society in its own interests, sacred or profane. There is nothing religious about it. The religious man puts the priest, the censor, inside you. Now the policeman has been institutionalized and placed outside you. Religious codes and strictures are no longer necessary. It is all in the civil and criminal codes. You needn't bother with these religious people anymore. They are obsolete. But they don't want to lose their hold over people. It is their business. Their livelihood is at stake. Your search for happiness only succeeds in destroying the sensitivity and intelligence of the nervous system. Wanting what does not exist--the romantic, religious, spiritual stuff--only adds momentum to that false continuity, which destroys the body. It is radically disturbing the chemical balance of the body. The body, which is only interested in survival and procreation, treats both pain and pleasure alike. It is you who insist on stopping pain and extending pleasure. The body's response to both pleasure and pain is the same, it groans. What does the body want? It doesn't want anything except to function. All other things are the inventions of thought. The body has no separate, independent existence of its own apart from pleasure and pain. The various vibrations affecting the body may differ in intensity but it is you who divide them into good and bad. You are constantly translating vibrations that hit the body into experiences. The body's natural intelligence is correctly processing the sensory input without your having to do

a thing. It is similar to how the body turns over many times during sleep without your being aware of it, much less trying to control it. The body is handling itself. You are all the time interfering with the natural functioning of the nervous system. When a sensation hits your nervous system, the first thing you do is to name it and categorize it as pleasure or pain. The next step is that you want to continue the pleasurable sensations and stop the painful sensations. First, the recognition of a sensation as pleasure or pain is itself painful. Second, the attempt to extend the life of one kind of sensation and to stop another kind of sensation is also painful. Both activities are choking the body. In the very nature of things, every sensation has its own intensity and duration. The attempt to extend pleasure and stop pain only succeeds in destroying the sensitivity of the body and its ability to respond to sensations. So what you are doing is very painful for the body. If you do nothing with the sensations, you will find that they must dissolve into themselves. That is what I mean when I speak of the ionization of thought. That is what I mean by birth and death. There is no death for the body, only disintegration. Thought being material, all its pursuits are material. That is why your so-called spiritual pursuits have no meaning. Don't get me wrong, I am not against using thought to get what you need. You have no other tool at your disposal. So the body is interested only in its survival. All that are necessary for life are the survival and reproductive systems. That is nature's way. Why life wants to reproduce itself is another matter. The only way the human organism can survive and ensure its reproduction is through thought. So thought is very important and even essential to the living organism. Thought determines whether there is action or no action. All animals have these survival thoughts but in the case of man the factor of recognition is introduced, complicating the whole thing enormously. We have superimposed over the natural sensory functioning a never-ending verbalization. The body is not at all interested in psychological or spiritual matters. Your highly praised spiritual experiences are of no value to the organism. In fact, they are painful to the body. Love, compassion, understanding, bliss--all these things which religion and psychology have placed before man are only adding to the strain of the body. All cultures, whether of the Orient

or of the Occident, have created this lopsided situation for mankind and turned man into a neurotic individual. Instead of being what you are, unkind, you pursue the fictitious opposite put before you, kindness. To emphasize what we should be only causes strain, giving momentum to what we already in fact are. In nature, we find the animals at one time violent and brutal, at others kind and generous. For them there is no contradiction. But man is told he must be always good, kind, loving. We emphasize only one side of reality thus distorting the whole picture. This trying to have one without the other is creating tremendous strain, sorrow, pain and misery for man. Actually, you are born and die with every breath you take. That is what is meant by death and rebirth. Your thought structure denies the reality of death. It seeks continuity at all costs. I am only pointing out that if you go deep enough, the you disappears, the body goes through an actual clinical death, and that, in some cases, the body can renew itself. At that point, the entire history of the individual, located in the body's genetic structure, no longer separates itself from life, and falls into its own rhythm. From then on it cannot separate itself from anything. You can no longer create this division in consciousness between waking and sleeping. So don't bother theorizing about thoughtless states. When thought is finished, you die. Until then, all talk of thoughtless states are the silly products of thought trying to give itself continuity by believing in and searching out a thoughtless state. If you have ever fancied yourself to be in a thoughtless state it means that thought was there. You need not practice any yogic techniques in order to experience these things. By taking drugs you can have all these experiences. I am not at all advocating drugs any more than I am advocating yoga. I am just pointing out that all experience is born out of thought and is in all the essentials identical. If you call these yogic or drug-induced states blissful, more profound or in any way more pleasurable than ordinary experiences, you are strengthening the ego and fortifying the separative structure by wasting your thoughts, translating sensations into higher or lower and pleasurable or painful. Anything you experience as energy is thought-induced energy. It is not the energy of life.

What are you, essentially? Look, in this state there is no division. Our situation is that I cannot transmit and you cannot receive that fact. In addition to it you have gone one step further and created a more complex problem for yourself by placing the undivided state outside yourself as you are. This means search. To search is willful. The search for peace is dulling the natural peacefulness of the body. Your knowledge and search are meaningless because there is nothing inside the division you have created around you. It is all worthless as far as you are concerned. It is a menu without the meal. It is all a sales pitch. It has resulted in hypocrisy and commercialism. There is something radically wrong with it. If there is anything good it cannot produce anything bad. Obviously, religions are false-religion, spirituality, society, you, your property, your motives and values, the whole thing. I am not here to teach you anything. This is not a didactic or instructional exercise. Words only have a vague abstract meaning for you. Otherwise, they have no relevance to you at all. You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. You must be saved from the saviors, redeemed from the redeemers. If it is to happen it must happen now. My words cannot penetrate the lunacy there. It is the madness of the spiritual search that makes you unmoved and impervious to my words. Forget the rosaries, the scriptures, the ashes on your forehead. When you see for yourself the absurdity of your search, the whole culture is reduced to ashes inside you. Then you are out of that. Tradition is finished for you. No more games. Vedanta means the end of knowledge. So why write more holy books, open more schools, preserve more teachings? The burning up inside you of everything you want is the meaning of ashes. When you know nothing, you say a lot. When you know something, there's nothing to say. I cannot form any image at any time. It does not matter here whether the eyes are open or closed. The only thing that is there in that individualized consciousness is the sure reflection of what is presented to it. You do not name it. The movement or desire to know what it is, is simply is not there. The explanations don't mean a thing. That is why I maintain that your natural state is one of not knowing. We have superimposed a naming process over this natural physiological awareness, an

awareness we share, incidentally, with the other animals. Awareness and the movement or tendency in you to bring about change in you are two different things entirely. That difference cannot be perceived by you for there is no perception without the perceiver. Can you become conscious of anything except through the medium of memory and thought? Memory is knowledge. Even your feelings are memory. The stimulus and the response form one unitary movement. They cannot be neatly separated. In other words, you cannot even differentiate the stimulus from the response. There is no dividing line except when thought steps in and creates one. Thought, as memory and knowledge, has created this mechanism. The only way it can perpetuate itself is to gather knowledge, to know more and more, to ask more and more questions. As long as you are seeking you will be asking questions, and the questioning mechanism only adds more momentum to the naming process. Thought can never capture the movement of life, it is much too slow. It is like lightning and thunder. They occur simultaneously but sound, traveling slower than light, reaches you later, creating the illusion of two separate events. It is only the natural physiological sensations and perceptions that can move with the flow of life. There is no question of capturing or containing that movement. We like to use the word consciousness glibly, as if we are intimately familiar with it. Actually, consciousness is something we will never know. As far as I am concerned, we become conscious of something only through memory, knowledge. Otherwise, space and the separative consciousness it creates are not there. There is no such thing as looking at something without the interference of knowledge. To look you need space, and thought creates that space. So space itself, as a dimension, exists only as a creation of thought. Thought has also tried to theorize about the space it has created, inventing the time-space continuum. Time is an independent reference or frame. There is no necessary continuity between it and space. Thought has also invented the opposite of time, the now, the eternal now. The present exists only as an idea. The moment you attempt to look at the present it has already been brought into the framework of the past. Thought will use any trick under the sun to give momentum to its own continuity. Its essential technique is to repeat the same thing over and over again. This

gives it an illusion of permanency. This permanency is shattered the moment the falseness of the past-present-future continuum is seen. The future can be nothing but the modified continuity of the past. Nature cannot be captured by thought. The important thing to see is the false separation between you and nature. Thought has created all these divisions, making what you call experience possible. The man who has freed himself from all divisions in consciousness has no experiences. He does not have loving relationships, does not question anything, has no notions about being a self-realized man and is not stuck on wanting to help somebody else. What I am maintaining is that the whole problem has been created by culture. It is that that has created this neurotic division in man. Somewhere along the line, man separated himself and experienced self-consciousness, which the other animals don't have, for the first time. This has created misery for man. That is the beginning of the end of man. The individual who is able through luck to be free from this self-consciousness is no longer experiencing an independent existence. He is, even to himself, like any other thing out there. What happens in the environment repeats itself within such an individual without the knowledge. Once thought has burnt itself out, nothing that creates division can remain there. While thought is taking birth, the disintegration or death of thought is taking place also. That is why it is not natural for thought to take root. Only by maintaining a divisive consciousness in man is thought capable of denying the harmonious functioning of the body. To cast man in religious or psychological terms is to deny the extraordinary intelligence of this wondrous body. It is the movement of thought that is constantly taking you away from your natural state and creating this division. Is there any way for us to experience, much less share, reality? Forget about ultimate reality, you have no way of experiencing the reality of anything. Experiencing reality from moment to moment is also a thought-induced state of mind. Without a common reference point, which is another invention of thought, how can you communicate and share? It is just not possible. There is nothing to communicate anyhow. You want to use communication to help you out of the mess you are in. That is your only interest. Getting out of your situation is your only aim.

Why? Why do you want to get out of your situation? Wanting to get out of situations is what has created the problem in the first place. Wanting to free yourself from the burden is really the problem. I am not recommending anything. Doing or not doing lead to the same end, misery. So doing nothing is no different from doing something. As long as you have knowledge about that burden, which I deny exists, you will have to struggle to be free of it. You cannot do otherwise. Anything you do is part of the mechanism of thought. Your search for happiness is prolonging your unhappiness. What is there inside you is only the movement of knowledge wanting to know more and more. The you, the separative structure, can continue only as long as there is a demand to know. The demand for freedom, whether outwardly or inwardly, has been with us for a long while. We have been told that this demand is a sacred, noble thing. Have we again been misled? The demand to be free is the cause of your problems. You want to see yourself as free. The one that is saying, You are not free, is the same one that is telling you that there is a state of freedom to be pursued. But the pursuit is slavery, the very denial of freedom. I do not know anything about freedom because I do not know anything about myself, free, enslaved, or otherwise. Freedom and self-knowledge are linked. Since I do not know myself and have no way of seeing myself except by the knowledge given me by my culture, the question of wanting to be free does not arise at all. The knowledge you have about freedom denies the very possibility of freedom. When you stop looking at yourself with the knowledge you have, the demand to be free from that self drops away. What is there is the constant demand to be free. Nothing else is there. How can you, and why should you, be free from memory? Memory is absolutely essential. The problem is not having a memory but your tendency to use memory to further your spiritual interests or as a means to find happiness. To attempt to be free from memory is withdrawal, and withdrawal is death. The greatest ideal, the most imposing, perfect and powerful, is, of course, God. It is an invention of frightened minds. The human mind has many destructive inventions to its credit.

The most destructive one, and the one that has corrupted you, is the invention of God. The history of human thinking has produced saints, teachers, gurus, but God is the most corrupt of them all. Man has already messed up his life and religion has made it worse. It is religion that really made a mess of man's life. What I am trying to say is that there is no individual there at all. There is only a certain gathering of knowledge, which is thought, but no individuality there. The knowledge you have of things is all that you are capable of experiencing. Without knowledge, no experience of any kind is possible. You cannot separate experience and knowledge. The self is nothing sacred. It is the totality of your knowledge and you are, unfortunately, stuck with it. Why are you interested in separating the knowledge you have about yourself, whatever you call yourself? Knowledge is all that is there. Where is the self? It is an illusion. Similarly, enlightenment has no independent existence of its own apart from your knowledge about it. There is no enlightenment at all. The idea of illumination is tied up with change but there is nothing to change. Change admits of time. Change always takes time. To change, to eliminate one thing and replace it with another, takes time. What you are now and what you ought to be are linked together by time. You are going to be enlightened tomorrow. Let us take this as an example. You want to be enlightened. You want to be selfless. You are this, you want to be that. The gap between the two is filled with time. Your enlightenment or selflessness is always tomorrow, not now. So time is essential and time is thought. Your thought structure, which is you, can't conceive of the possibility of anything happening except in time. This escapist logic is also applied by everyone to spiritual matters, only the time frame is larger. It happens in heaven or perhaps in a future life, at any rate later. And just as there is no tomorrow in these matters, so its reference point, the present, does not exist. Where does it not exist? In thought, which is the past. There is no question of enlightenment now because there is no now, only the projection of the past. What I am saying is valid and true for me, that is all. If I suggest anything, directly or indirectly, you will turn it into another method or technique. I would be falsifying myself if I were to make any such suggestion. If anyone says there is a way out he is not an honest

fellow. He is doing it for his own self-aggrandizement, you may be sure. He simply wants to market a product and hopes to convince you that it is superior to other products on the market. If another man comes along and says that there is no way out, you make of that another method. You can't blast what I am saying as long as you are relying upon what someone has said before. The saint is a technocrat. That is what most people are. Don't listen to me, it will create an unnecessary disturbance in you. It will only intensify the neurotic situation you are already caught in. Having taken for granted the validity of all this holy stuff, having never questioned, much less broken away from it, you not only have learned how to live with it but also how to capitalize on it. It is a matter of profiteering, nothing more. Anything I do to help would only add to your misery, that is all. By continuing to listen to me you merely heap one more misery upon those you already have. In that sense, this discussion we are having is doing you no good whatever. You don't seem to realize that you are playing with fire here. If you really want freedom here and now you can have it. You see, you are anger, selfishness and all these things. If they go, you go. There is a physical going, not in the abstract but actual, physical death. It can happen now, you simply don't want it. You would not touch it with a ten-foot pole. If anger and selfishness, which is you, go, liberation is now, not tomorrow. Your own anger will burn you, not the fire. The religious man has invented selflessness. If that selflessness goes, you go, that is all. So freeing yourself from any one of these things implies that you, as you know and experience yourself, are coming to an end now. Please, in your interest and out of compassion, I am telling you that this is not what you want. This is not a thing you can make happen. It is not in your hands at all. It hits whomsoever it chooses. You are out of the picture altogether. You have to actually touch life at a point where nobody has touched it before. Nobody can teach you that. As long as you continue to repeat what others have said before, you are lost and nothing good can come of it. Listening to and believing what others have said is not the way to find out for yourself and there is no other way. You may very well ask why the hell I am talking. I emphatically assure you that, in my case, it is not at all in the nature of self-fulfillment. My motive for talking is quite different from what

you think it is. It is not that I am eager to help you understand or that I feel that I must help you, not at all. My motive is direct and temporary. You arrive seeking understanding, while I am only interested in making it crystal clear that there is nothing to understand. As long as you want to understand, so long there will be this awkward relationship between two individuals. I am always emphasizing that somehow the truth has to dawn upon you that there is nothing to understand. As long as you think, accept and believe that there is something to understand, and make that understanding a goal to be placed before you, demanding search and struggle, you are lost and will live in misery. The search is invalid because it is based upon questions which in turn are based upon false knowledge. Your knowledge has not freed you from your problems. So what is your goal? You must be very clear about it, otherwise there is no point in proceeding. It becomes a game, a meaningless ritual. What do you want to get? There is always somebody to help you get what you want for a price. You have foolishly divided life into higher and lower goals, into material and spiritual paths. In either case, great struggle, pain and effort is involved. I say, on the other hand, that there are no spiritual goals at all. They are simply the extension of material goals to what you imagine to be a higher, loftier plane. You mistakenly believe that by pursuing the spiritual goal you will somehow miraculously make your material goals simple and manageable. Such pursuits are in actuality not possible. You may think that only inferior persons pursue material goals, that material achievements are boring. But, in fact, the so-called spiritual goals you have put before yourself are exactly the same. You are your search. The past will always be there as long as you want something. Even if you attempt to suppress your wants, the past has to come to your help and tell you how to suppress your wants. There is no such differentiation of wants. They are all exactly the same. When wanting ceases even for a moment thought is absent and you are left with the simple matter of taking care of the bodily needs--food, clothes and shelter. If you go on trying to suppress the past, trying to live in what you call the present, you will

drive yourself crazy. You are trying to control something over which you have no control. It is just not possible to control thought without becoming neurotic, for it is not just your personal, petty little past that is in the way but the entire past of mankind, the entire memory of every human being, every form of life and every form of existence. It is not such a simple, easy thing to do. If you try to control the natural flow of the river through all these artificial means, building a dam, so to speak, you will inundate and destroy the whole thing. That is why you find thoughts welling up inside you despite your efforts to control, observe and be aware of them. Once this is understood then you are never concerned whether thoughts are there or not. When there is an actual need for thought to function, it is there. When there is no need for thought to function, it is not there. You don't even know and have no way of finding out whether you are thinking or not. Your constant utilization of thought to give continuity to your separative self is you. There is nothing there inside you other than that. What you call the self is nothing other than the continuity of thought. If that artificial continuity is not there, neither are you. The self wants only to function on a different, higher level and not to come to an end. You want to be transformed, to become something else, while continuing. The only way the self can do that is to add more and more experiences to those it has already accumulated. Whether you want something material or simple peace of mind, it makes no difference. As long as you are searching for peace of mind, you will have a tormented mind. If you try not to search or if you continue to search you will remain the same. You have to stop. You don't stop searching because such an act would be the end of you. You are lost in a jungle and you have no way of finding your way out. Night is fast approaching. The wild animals are there including the cobras and still you are lost. What do you do in such a situation? You just stop. You don't move. As long as there is that hope that you can somehow or the other get out of the jungle, so long will you continue what you are doing, searching, and so long you feel lost. You are lost only because you are searching. You have no way of finding your way out of the jungle. You still expect something to happen. That expectation is part of the problem. Your

expectations are part of your desire to change everything. Nothing needs changing. You must accept life as it is. You may as well find out if it is possible to be at peace now. You want so many things and I am not in a position to help you get any of them. You are not clear what you really want. When that which you want is fully recognized then you find out how to get it and either you get it or you don't, that's all. Don't bother separating your goals into the low and the lofty. You have been doing that all your life and have not succeeded. When once you have understood that there is nothing to understand, what is there to communicate? Communication is just not necessary. Your desire to communicate is part of your general strategy of achievement. Veiled behind that desire for communication is the dependency upon some outside power to solve your problems for you. Except for the quite natural need for practical communication necessary to function in this world, your interest in communication is really an expression of your feelings of helplessness and your hope for the support of some outside agency. Your helplessness persists because of your dependency upon some outside agency. When that dependency, fictitious or not, is not there then the feelings of helplessness and the desire to communicate in the abstract are not there. If the one goes, the other must go also. Your situation and prospects only seem hopeless because you have ideas of hope. There is bound to be helplessness and overwhelming frustration as long as you exist in relationship with the hope for fulfillment because there is no fulfillment at all. This is the source of your dilemma. The future is created by hope. That is the only future that exists. The hope of achieving your goal, the hope of attaining enlightenment, the hope of somehow getting off the merry-goround--that is the future. The point from which you project yourself into the future appears to you to be the present, the now, but this is mistaken. There is only the past in operation and that movement creates the illusion of present and future. You may find what I am saying here logical or illogical and you may accept or reject it. But it will, in any case, be the past that is doing so for that is all that is in operation within you. It is the past that has projected these goals--God, enlightenment, peace of mind, whatever--and has placed them in the future out of reach. There is only the past. You have been told by holy

men who talk of enlightenment and such nonsense that the past has got to come to a stop before you are free to operate in the present and so realize your potential or future possibilities. This I deny. First of all, why should you be interested in attempting to stop the past from interfering with the present? Be very clear that this idea that the past must die, that time must have an end, has been put into you by those self-appointed guardians of your so-called soul--the priests, holy men and saviors of mankind. It is not yours at all. You need to be very clear also about the implications of ending the influence of the past. It is really a dangerous, calamitous thing. In your search to find the end of time, the past, you must use the past, so you only succeed in perpetuating the past. This is a fact, like it or not. Anything you do--having kinder thoughts, behaving selflessly, approaching life negatively rather than positively, listening to holy men, listening to me--is only adding momentum to the past. All the techniques and methods of achievement at your disposal are from the past and, therefore, useless. Luckily, there is absolutely nothing to be achieved. Your actual approach to happiness is grounded in self-interest and naivet. To demand the cessation of the continuity of the movement of the past is ridiculous and unfounded. We have been brainwashed that if we free ourselves from the past everything will be hunky-dory, full of lightness and sweetness. It is all romantic hogwash--sheer unadulterated fantasy and nothing more. All your actions are from the past and anything you do only strengthens the hold of pleasure and pain upon you. Ultimately, it is all pain and no pleasure. I can say that with certainty but you are still cocksure that there is a timeless state, a way out. It is therefore impossible for us to communicate. What I am saying will, if really listened to, put an end to you as you know and experience yourself. You are not listening to me at all. Your so-called listening is all in the past. The constant interpretation by the past of what is being said prevents you from listening to what is being said. All I can guarantee you is that as long as you are searching for happiness you will remain unhappy. This is a fact. Society is so organized and complex that you have no other way of surviving except to accept the way of life around you along with the limitations it places upon

all of us. We must all accept the reality of society whether we like it or not. All your relationships, knowledge and experiences, all your emotions and feelings, all that romantic stuff, belongs entirely to society, not to you. You are not an individual at all. Only when you are free from what every man and woman has thought and felt before you will you become an individual. Such an individual will not burn books that men have made with great care. He would not be a rebel. All the accumulated knowledge, experience and suffering of mankind is inside of you. You must build a huge bonfire within you. Then you will become an individual. There is no other way. You want to change yourself into something and at the same time find you cannot change at all. This change you talk of is really just more romantic, fancy stuff for you. You never change, only think about changing. As long as you want to change for some reason or the other so long will you insist upon changing the whole world. You want a different world so that you can be happy in it. That is your only interest. You can talk of mankind--concern for mankind, compassion for mankind--but it is all bullshit. Since you are determined to bring about change, a notion put into you by your culture, you remain discontent and want the world to be different. When your inner demand to be something different from what in fact you are comes to an end then the neurotic demand to change your society ceases. Then you cannot be in conflict with society. You are in perfect harmony with society, including its brutalities and miseries. All your attempts to change this brutal society only add momentum to it. This is not to say that the free individual is indifferent to society, on the contrary. In any case, it is you who are indifferent right now. You only talk and whine, meanwhile doing nothing. Unless you are at peace with yourself there cannot be peace around the world. When you are at peace with yourself that is the end of the story. You are trying to establish relationships with people around you, with society, with the whole world. For some reason or other, the actual relationships are very ugly and horrible. Have you noticed that as long as our relationships can be directed to serve personal happiness there is no conflict? Every person is in the same situation. Relationships are harmonious as long as they serve one's ideas of happiness. Because you cannot face the dynamism of relationships you

invent sentiments, romance and dramatic emotions to give them continuity. Therefore, you are always in conflict. Understanding yourself is one of the greatest jokes perpetrated on the gullible and credulous people everywhere, not only by the purveyors of ancient wisdom, the holy men, but also by the modern scientists. The psychologists love to talk about self-knowledge, self-actualization, living from moment to moment and such rot. These absurd ideas are thrown at us as if they are something new. I have been everywhere in the world meeting and talking with people. People are exactly the same the world over. The questions never vary but I am never bored with it. How can I be bored? If I were some sort of fool getting some sort of kick out of this, looking for new, better and different questions then there would be a possibility of getting bored. But I am not looking for anything so boredom is impossible. You are alive because your parents had sex, period. Don't look for a meaning to life. There may not be any meaning at all. It may have its own meaning that you can never know. Obviously, life has no meaning for you, otherwise you would not be here asking these questions. Everything you do seems absolutely meaningless. That is the fact. Don't bother about others. The whole world is an extension of you. The way you are thinking, feeling and experiencing is exactly the same way everyone else in this world is thinking, feeling and experiencing. The goal may be different but the mechanism and instrument you are using to achieve your particular goal is not a whit different from that used by others to achieve theirs. Why should there be any meaning in living? The moment a baby arrives in the world it is interested in one thing, survival. The instinct in the baby to feed itself, to survive and to reproduce itself, seems to be the way of life. It is life expressing itself, that is all. You needn't impose a meaning upon it. Instead of living you are obsessed with the question, How am I to live? That dilemma is put into us by our culture and is the one responsible for many of our problems. Because you are

dead, not living what we call life, you are concerned with how to live. If you succeed in getting rid of the idea of somehow living a better, nobler and more meaningful life you will replace that belief with another. You must face the fact that you know nothing about life or the living of it. I am just singing my song then I go. If someone listens to me or not it is not my concern. If nobody comes and talks it is alright with me. Believe me, my talking is only incidental. It is not aimed at liberating anyone. If you are not here it's all the same for me. I am not selling anything. I am simply pointing out that at the rate at which we are going the whole genetic engineering technology will end up in the hands of the political system to be used for the complete control and subjugation of man. This natural state cannot be used to further anyone's crusade nor am I interested in setting myself up as an archetype or prophet for mankind. I am not interested in satisfying the curiosity of anybody. The scientists are making tremendous progress in the fields of microbiology and glandular and brain physiology. They will soon have enough sophistication in these areas to understand the physiological mutation that took place within me. I personally cannot make any definite statement except to say that the whole mechanism is an automatic thing. The interference of thought is not there anymore. Thought is functional in value, nothing more. It operates temporarily here when there is a demand from the environment but cannot act with regard to becoming something or to changing things there. That is energy, an energy that can make functioning in this world sanely and intelligently an easy affair. Now you are wasting that energy by attempting to be something other than what you, in fact, are. Then you will have a certainty which cannot be transmitted by me or by anybody. I have discovered, for myself and by myself, that what we have been told about freedom, enlightenment and God is false. No power in the world can touch this. This does not make me superior, nothing of the sort. To feel superior or inferior you must separate yourself from the world. I do not look upon the world as a separate thing, as you do. The knowledge I have about the world, whether within or without, comes into operation only when there is a demand

for it. Otherwise, I simply don't know. Your natural state is one of not knowing. The knowledge that you are this, that you are that, that you are happy, that you are unhappy, that you are a realized man, that you are not a realized man, is completely absent here. We have no way of knowing if we are free. Nothing tells me that I am free. In your case, the naming process, the wanting something, the questioning, goes on and on no matter what. Here thought functions only from a stimulus from the outside. Even then, the response of knowledge is instantaneous and I am back again like a big question mark. Your constant demand to experience the same thing over and over again results in compulsive, repetitive thinking. I don't see any need or reason for the repetitive process to go on and on. In my case, there is no one separate from this functioning, no one who can step back and say, This is reality. There is no such thing as reality at all. Reality is imposed upon us by culture, society and education. Don't get me wrong, thought has a functional value. If we don't accept the world as it is imposed on us we will end up in the loony bin. I have to accept it as a relative fact. Otherwise, there is no way of experiencing the reality of anything. It is thought that has created the reality of your body, of your living, of your sleep, and of all your perceptions. You experience this reality through knowledge. Otherwise, there is no way of your knowing for yourself that you have a body, that you are alive, that you are awake. All that is knowledge. The reality of anything is something which cannot be experienced by anybody. The military wars out there are the extension of what is going on all the time inside you. Why is there a war waging inside you? Because you search for peace. The instrument you are using in your attempt to be at peace with yourself is war. There is already peace in man. You need not search. The living organism is functioning in an extraordinarily peaceful way. Man's search for truth is born out of this same search for peace. It only ends up disturbing and violating the peace that is already there in the body. So what we are left with is the war within and the war without. It's an extension of the same thing. Our search in this world for peace, being based upon warfare, will lead only to war, towards damnation. Humanity has polluted,

destroyed and killed off everything, all on account of his wanting to be at the center of the universe, of all creation. You are interested in the self, not I. Whatever it is, it is the most important thing for man as long as he is alive. If you don't think it never occurs to you that you are alive or dead. The very birth of thought creates fear and it is out of fear that all experience springs. Both inner and outer worlds proceed from a point of thought. Everything you experience is born out of thought. So everything you experience or can experience is an illusion. The self-absorption in thought creates a self-centeredness in man--that is all that is there. All relationships based upon that will inevitably create misery for man. These are bogus relationships. As far as you are concerned, there is no such thing as a relationship. And yet, society demands not just relationships but permanent relationships. It is mortality that creates immortality. It is the known that creates the unknown. It is time that has created the timeless. It is thought that created the thoughtless. Just as we all breathe from a common fund of air we appropriate and use thoughts to function in this world. Man's insistence that thought must be continuous denies the nature of thought, which is short-lived. Thought has created for itself a separate destiny. It has been very successful in creating for itself a separate parallel existence. By positing the unknown, the beyond, the immortal, it has created for itself a way to continue on. There is no timeless, only time. When thought creates time, a space is created there. So thought is space as well. Thought also creates matter; no thought no matter. Thought is a manifestation or expression of life and to make of it a separate thing, impute to it a life of its own and then allow it to create a future for its own unobstructed continuity, is man's tragedy. I don't think that this kind of life exists anywhere else on any other planet. I am not saying that there may not be life in other worlds only that it is not like our existence here. Your ruminations about other forms of life and other worlds is just a wish for unlimited extension into the future and far-off places. Thought is trying to give itself continuity and speculating

about the future and undiscovered worlds is a convenient way to do it. In order to concentrate or focus on one thing you must block out the others. By concentrating upon what you take to be nothing you withdraw and separate yourself from the natural flow of life through and around you. You are part of a generalized magnetic field and what separates you from others is thought. You are concerned only with your happiness and unhappiness, the video set you are watching. You view and experience things from a different viewpoint than others, that's all. You think that you are having a subjective experience of an objective thing. There is nothing there, only your relative, experiential data, your truth. There is no such thing as objective truth at all. There is nothing which exists outside or independent of our minds. That part of culture that promises you peace, bliss, heaven and selflessness is the problem. To separate the rest of culture--how you entertain yourself, how you eat, your work habits and language--from this counter-reality created by culture is a mistake. The so-called savages are functioning in exactly the same way we are functioning today. Basically, there is no difference. In either the primitive or modern cultures there is no peace. The idea that there is peace somewhere else, sometime in the future, is causing the problem. All these religious experiences like compassion, bliss and love are part of the craving for a non-existent peace which is destructive to the natural peace already there. Whatever is happening at the moment is all that there is for me. All your yesterdays, all your knowledge and your very sense of self are dead things of the past. These memories have a great deal of emotional content for you but not for me. I am only interested in what is actually happening now, not tomorrow or yesterday. I have no particular message for mankind nor do I have any of the missionary zeal in me. I am not a savior of mankind or any such thing. People come here out of their own free will and volition because they have heard of me or out of sheer curiosity, it doesn't matter. A person may come here out of any one of a number of reasons. He finds me somehow different, a rare bird, and cannot figure me out or fit me into any framework he knows. He tells his friends and soon they arrive at the door. I can't tell them to get lost. I invite them in knowing very well that there is nothing I can do for them. What can I do for you? Come in, sit down, make

yourself comfortable, is all I can say. Whatever happens, it changes the movement and demands your complete attention. Everything happening at that moment demands your complete and total attention. In that state there are no longer two things; lover and beloved, pursuer and pursued. What you call a beautiful woman, which is an idea, gives way to something else. Romanticism is not my reality. Nothing has ever or will ever sweep me off my feet. It is not that I am the opposite of that, a man of reason. It is the element of reason in me that revolted against itself. You may infer a rational meaning in what I say or do but it is your doing not mine. I am not interested in anyone's search for happiness, romance or escape. There is no experience here. So how can there be these dramatic, crazy experiences? I have no way of separating myself from events. The event and I are one and the same. I have no teaching. There is nothing to preserve. Teaching implies something that can be used to bring about change. Sorry, there is no teaching here, just disjointed, disconnected sentences. What is there is only your interpretation, nothing else. For this reason there is not now nor will there ever be any kind of copyright for whatever I am saying. I have no claims. My mother died when I was seven days old. My maternal grandparents took care of me. My grandfather was a Theosophist. He was a wealthy man and instilled a strong religious atmosphere around the house. So in that sense, J. Krishnamurti was also part of my background. They had his pictures, I could not avoid him. I did not go to him in search of anything. He was just part of my background. It would have been remarkable had I never gone to see him. My problem was to free myself from the whole background that was strangling me, that's all. It is like the man who is riding a tiger and is thrown off. The tiger, maintaining its own momentum, continues on. It's gone. That's all there is to it. You cannot do anything with the tiger anymore. You never again have the fear of encountering or riding the tiger. It is finished. It has gone. So I think there is little point in my doing anything in society. It has its own momentum. Anything you try to do will engulf you and add to that momentum. Who has given the mandate to all these people to save mankind?

If the entire collective knowledge and experience of man is thrown out, what is left is a primordial and primeval state, without the primitiveness. That kind of individual is of no use to society at all. Like a shady tree, this individual may provide shade but can never be conscious of his doing so. If you sit under the tree a coconut may fall on your head. There is a danger involved. For this reason, society may feel threatened by this individual. This society, structured the way it is, can make no use of such a person. When once the organism has freed itself from the stranglehold of thought, anything you do to try to bring about peace and harmony there only creates disharmony and violence. It is like using war to create peace in a peaceful world. When the search itself comes to an end it comes to an end with a big bang, as it were. Then peace is something that cannot be practiced or taught. If you drop the fictitious models of the saint and holy man you are left with the natural biological arrangement. The separative structure of thought which was introduced into the consciousness of man long ago has created the violent world and will probably push man and the rest of life on this planet to the brink of extinction. But biologically, each cell has the wisdom to avoid models and promises and simply, out of sheer survival motives, cooperates with the cell next to it. Out of the terror of annihilation, man, like the cells of his body, will learn to cooperate, but not out of love or compassion. The control of the body through thought has destroyed the possibility of growing into complete humans. The extraordinary intelligence of the biological organism is all that is necessary for good living but we are all the time interfering with its natural operation through the medium of thought. Your natural bodily computer is already programmed. You don't have to do a thing. Somehow, you see, something hits you like lightning and burns the whole thing there. This man then is neither sinner nor saint. He is far outside the framework of society. For forty-nine years I searched for a man called U.G. The whole culture put me on the wrong track. I tried the dead gurus as well as the living ones. Eventually I realized that the search was useless, that the enemy was me. Now the entire knowledge and the search it engendered has been thrown out of my system completely. The demand to change one's self and the demand

to change the world go out of the system together. I am neither antisocial nor thankful to society. I don't feel any bounden duty to play any part or to help my fellow men. All this kind of thing is balderdash. The man who is trying to free himself from the world or from what he calls evil is actually the most egotistical of men. The shattering perception that finally dawns on you is that there is no such thing as ego at all. This insight blows everything apart with a tremendous force when it hits you. It is not an experience that can be shared with another. It is not an experience at all. It is a calamity in which both experience and the experiencer come to an end. A man in such a state does not escape reality and has no romantic tendencies. He harbors no humanistic notions about saving the world for he knows that anything that is done to save it only adds momentum to it. He knows that there is nothing you can do. Your actions and the consequences of those actions form one single event. It is the logical, cause and effect thinking that imposes a sequence to events. The sudden evidence of light and the throwing of the light switch which preceded it are actually one thing, not two. They appear to you as two or more events only because time has created a space between. But time and space, apart from the ideas of time and space, do not exist at all. Creation and destruction are going on simultaneously. The birth and death of thought happen simultaneously. That is why I insist that there is no such thing as death at all. Even the body does not die. It can change form but does not cease altogether. Because death really does not exist it is impossible for you to experience it. What you do experience is the void or emptiness you feel upon the disappearance of someone's body. Death can never be experienced and neither can birth for that matter. In your natural state, where the body is allowed to function without the interference of thought, birth and death are going on all the time. There is no person and no space within to create a self. What is left after the continuity of thought is blown away is one disjointed and independent series of interactions. What happens in the environment around me happens in here. There is no division. When the armor you are wearing around you is stripped away, you find an extraordinary sensitivity of the senses that responds to the phases of the moon, the passage of the seasons and the movements of the other planets. There is simply no isolated, separate existence of its own here, only the throb of life.

In this death state, the ordinary breath stops entirely and the body is able to breathe through other physiological means. Among the many doctors I have discussed this strange phenomenon with only one expert in childbirth gave me a sort of explanation. He says that newborn babies have a similar way of breathing. This death process is yoga, not the hundreds of postures and breathing exercises. When the thought process stops splitting itself in two, the body goes through a clinical death. First, the death must take place then yoga begins. Yoga is actually the body's skill in bringing itself back from the state of clinical death. This yoga of renewal is an extraordinary thing. If you observe a newborn baby you will have observed the way it moves and articulates its whole body all in a natural rhythm. After the breath and heartbeat come to an almost complete stop somehow the body begins to come back. The corpse-like appearance of the body--the stiffness, coldness and ash covering--begins to disappear, the body warms up and begins to move and the metabolism including the pulse picks up. So it is much more like the Tai Chi than classical yoga postures. The movements and postures that the body performs when breaking down the stiffness left over from the death process are beautiful, graceful movements, like those of a newborn baby. Yogis now prescribe savasana, the corpse posture, after the performance of any moving postures. This is backwards. You start yoga as a dead stiff body then the body is renewed through natural rhythmic movements. This whole process of dying and being renewed, although it happens to me daily and without my volition, remains very intriguing to me. It just happens out of nowhere. Even the thought of the self or ego has been annihilated. Still, there is something there experiencing this death, otherwise I would not be able to describe it here. With the absence of any demand to repeat or use this death process the senses are given a field day. The breath, no longer under the domination of the separative thought structure, can respond fully to the physical environment. Upon seeing a beautiful mountain or sunset, the breath is suddenly drawn out of you then back in, all in a natural rhythm. This is where the expression, breathtaking beauty, probably comes from. The only way you become conscious of things happening around you is through subtle

changes in breathing patterns. It is a tremendous mechanism and in it there are no persons, no things. Sometimes you are just sitting there and you suddenly feel a shortness of breath, almost a gasping for air. It is something like a second wind. But even this passes and finally breathing stops altogether and the body bypasses the lungs, breathing with the pulse of the body alone. One paper stresses the difference in the way my thymus gland functions. But there are other glands that are affected also--the pineal, the pituitary and others. The pineal gland, which controls the whole movement, breathing and coordination of the body, is greatly affected. When the separative thought structure dies these glands and nerve plexuses take over the functioning of the organism. It is a painful process, for the hold of thought over the glands and plexuses is strong and has to be burnt off. This can be experienced by an individual. The burning or ionization needs energy and space to take place. For this reason, the limits of the body are reached, with energy lashing out in all directions. The body's containment of that energy in its limited form brings pain even though there is no experiencer of pain there. This painful death process is something nobody wants, not even the most ardent religious practitioners and yogis. It is not the result of will but of a fortuitous concourse of atoms. How all this fits into your scientific structure, I do not know. Scientists doing work in this field are interested in these changes if they are described in physiological rather than mystical terms. These scientists envisage this kind of man as representing the end product of biological evolution, not the science-fiction superman or super spiritual beings. Nature is only interested in creating an organism that can respond fully and intelligently to stimuli and reproduce itself, that's all. This body is capable of extraordinary perceptions and sensations. It is a marvel. Scientists in the field of evolution now think that the present breed of humans we have on this planet probably evolved out of a degenerated species. The mutation that carried on the selfconsciousness must have taken place in a degenerate species. That is why we have messed everything up. It is anybody's guess as to whether anyone can change the whole thing. I think that human consciousness in its totality is a tremendously powerful thing with a strong momentum of its own. The whole of human consciousness is a very formidable thing.

The scientific procedure, not the self, gives you a reference point so that you may measure the truth or falseness of what I am saying. Look, I tried everything to find an answer to my burning obsession, Is there such a thing as enlightenment at all or have we all been fooled by abstractions? The utter frustration and complete failure to answer that question created an intensity. The first part of my life was spent in India around yogis, holy men, sages; in short, all the associations that could benefit a person interested in spiritual matters. I found out for myself that it was all bogus. There was nothing to it at all. Totally disillusioned with the whole religious traditions of both the East and the West, I plunged myself into modern psychology, science and whatever the material world could give me. I found out for myself that the whole idea of spirit or psyche was false. When I experimented with and studied the material world, I was surprised to find that there was no such thing as matter at all. Denying the spiritual and material basis of things, I was left with nowhere to turn. I began drifting on my own, unable to find an answer from any source. Then one day the futility of what I was doing dawned upon me and the question which had obsessed me for almost my entire life got burnt then disappeared. After that there were no more questions. The thirst burned itself out without ever satisfying itself. Not answers but the ending of questions is the important thing. Even though everything got burnt there, still embers remain to express themselves in a natural rhythm. What impact this expression may have on the society around me is not my concern.

Chapter Four: 1985-1990 -- India, Switzerland, Australia, Netherlands & U.K. There is no self, there is no I, there is no spirit, there is no soul and there is no mind. That knocks off the whole list and you have no way of finding out what you are left with. You may very well ask me the question, Why do you go on telling people about the way you are functioning? It is only to emphasize that we have been for centuries using some instrument, that is, thinking or mind or whatever you want to call it to free ourselves from the whole of what you call the self and all kinds of things. That is what the whole quest of spirit is all about.

But once it dawns on you that there is nothing to be free from then these questions don't arise at all. How that dawned on me I have no way of finding out for myself. The answers I give are only to emphasize that what we are left with is the functioning of the living organism. How it is functioning is all that I am trying to put across, emphasize and overemphasize all the time. My interest is to somehow make you see that the whole attempt on your part to understand what you are left with is a lost battle. Even that statement cannot be experienced by what is left there. When once the whole thing is flushed out of your system, the statement, "We are left with only the physical body and the universe--that statement also cannot stand any more. The more the questions you throw at me the more there is a need to emphasize the physical aspect of our existence, namely, that there is nothing to what we have been made to believe. All our problems have arisen because of our acceptance that it is possible for us to understand the reality of the world or the reality of our existence. What I am saying is that you have no way of experiencing anything that you do not know. So anything that you experience through the help of your knowledge is fruitless. It is a lost battle. That is the reason why I say that the instrument which we are using to understand the reality of our existence and the reality of the world around us is not part of this mechanism that is there. That is the reason why I say thoughts are not self-generated and are not spontaneous. There are no thoughts there even now. If you want to find out whether there is any such thing as thought, the very question which we are posing to ourselves, namely, "Is there a thought?," is born out of the assumption that there is a thought there. But what you will find there is all about thought and not thought. All about thought is what is put in there by the culture. That is put in by the people who are telling us that it is very essential for you to free yourself from whatever you are trying to free yourself from through that instrument. My interest is to emphasize that that is not the instrument and there is no other instrument. And when once this hits you, dawns upon you, that thought is not the instrument and that there is no other instrument, then there is no need for you to find out if any other instrument is necessary. There is no need for any other instrument. This very same structure that we are using, the instrument which we are using, has in a very ingenious way invented all kinds of

things like intuition, right insight, right this, that and the other. And to say that through this very insight we have come to understand something is the stumbling block. All insights however extraordinary they may be are worthless because it is thought that has created what we call insight and through that it is maintaining its continuity and status quo. I question consciousness because what we call consciousness is memory. You become conscious of something through the help of the knowledge you have and that knowledge is locked up in the memory. So the whole talk of the subconscious, unconscious, levels of consciousness and all that is the ingenious invention of the thinking mechanism. Through this cleverness, inventiveness, it maintains its continuity. Awareness has no meaning to me because awareness is not an instrument to be used to understand anything, much less to bring about a change there. First of all, there is nothing there to be changed. Since there is nothing there to be changed, whether you use awareness or any other instrument to bring about a change is irrelevant. Awareness can never be separated from the activity of the brain. That is the reason why I always describe what is happening here in physical terms. What is there is only the reflection of this object on the retina. Even this statement cannot be experienced by me because the stimulus and response are one unitary movement. The moment you say there is awareness, there is already a division. That is the only way you can continue, otherwise you are coming to an end. The you as you know yourself, the you as you experience yourself--that you is the identity there. Through the constant demand for using memory it maintains its continuity. If that you is not there you don't know what will happen. Thinking cannot help us to solve living problems. There is no way we can use that to solve human problems. That is why it has failed to solve our problems. It has not touched anything there. All our beliefs have not touched anything there. We don't know what we would do in a given situation. You can say that you are going to be a nonviolent man but what you would do in a given situation you would never know. The demand to be prepared for all future actions and situations is the cause of our problems. Every situation is so different and our preparedness to meet that situation with this knowledge we have of answering and dealing

with such situations cannot help us. It is not a challenge. The inadequacy of using what you have, preparing yourself, and the question of how to deal with the situation are absent here. It ceases to be a challenge then. That is why I say there are no problems there. We create the problems. If the solutions we are offered by those people are really not the solutions you really don't have a problem. But the fact of the matter is if you do not have a problem you create a problem. You cannot live without problems. This separateness from the totality of things around us and the idea that the whole thing is created for our benefit and that we are created for a grander and nobler purpose than all the other species on this planet are the causes of this destruction. This powerful use of thought is what is destructive. Thought is a self-protective mechanism, so anything that is born out of thought is destructive. Whether it is religious thought or scientific thought or political thought, all of them are destructive. But we are not ready to accept that it is thought that is our enemy. We don't know how to function in this world without the use of thought. You can invent all kinds of things and try to free yourself from this stranglehold of thought but there is no way we can accept the fact that that is not the instrument to help us to function sanely and intelligently in this world. Thought is a self-perpetuating mechanism. It controls, molds, shapes our ideas and actions. Idea and action, they are one and the same. All our actions are born out of ideas. Our ideas are thoughts passed on to us from generation to generation. Thought is not the instrument to help us to live in harmony with the life around us. That is why you create all these ecological problems, problems of pollution and the problem of possibly destroying ourselves with the most destructive weapons that we have invented. So, there is no way out. You may say that I am a pessimist, that I am a cynic or that I am this, that and the other. But I hope one day we will realize that the mistakes we have made will destroy everything. The planet is not in danger. We are in danger. Because you know in a way that what you know of yourself is coming to an end there. You have been through so many experiences. You have achieved so many things. You have attained and accomplished so many things. "Is all that coming to an end, leaving behind

nothing?" So naturally we create something beyond. You are not separate from that illusion. You are the illusion. If one illusion goes it is always replaced with another illusion. Why? Because the ending of the illusion is the ending of you. That is the death. The ending of belief is the ending of the you that is there. We think we know a lot more than this body. We think that we know what is good for that body and that is why we are creating problems for it. It knows what it wants to know. It doesn't want to learn anything from us. If we understand this simple relationship that thought and the body have then probably we will allow the body to function and use thought only for functional purposes. Thought is functional in value and it cannot help us to achieve any of the goals we have placed before us or what the culture has placed before us. Your value system is the one that is responsible for the human malady, human tragedy, forcing everybody to fit into that model. You may not agree with me, but when we talk about the quest for happiness it is no different from any other sensual activity. As a matter of fact, all experiences, however extraordinary they may be, are in the area of sensuality. That is one major problem that we are facing today. Somewhere along the line the human species experienced this self-consciousness for the first time and it separated the human species from the rest of the species on this planet. I don't even know if there is any such thing as evolution but we are made to believe that there is such a thing. And it was at that time perhaps that thought took its birth. But thought, in its birth, in its origin, in its content, in its expression, and in its action is very fascist. When I use the word fascist I use it not in the political sense but to mean that thought controls and shapes our thinking and our actions. So it is a very protective mechanism. It has no doubt helped us to be what we are today. It has helped us to create our high-tech and technology. It has made our life very comfortable. It has also made it possible for us to discover the laws of nature. But thought is a very protective mechanism and is interested in its own survival. At the same time, thought is opposed fundamentally to the functioning of this living organism. We are made to believe that there is such a thing as mind but there is no such thing as your mind or my mind. Society or culture or whatever you want to call it has created us solely and wholly for the purpose of maintaining its own continuity and status quo. At the same time, it

has also created the idea that there is such a thing as the individual. But actually, there is a conflict between the two--the idea of the individual and the impossibility of functioning as an individual separate and distinct from the totality of man's thoughts and experiences. Here at this point I would like to emphasize that thoughts are not self-generated and spontaneous. I would go one step further and ask, "Is there any such a thing as thought?" The very question arises because we assume that there is such a thing as thought and that we can separate ourselves from thought and look at it. But when we look at what we call thought, what we see is about thought and not thought itself. What is thought?" The question arises only because of the assumption that there is such a thing as thought. We use what we call thought to achieve our spiritual or material goals. We may consider the spiritual goals as higher. The culture in which we are functioning places spiritual goals on a higher level than the materialistic goals. But the instrument which we are using is matter which is thought. Thought to me is matter. Therefore, all our spiritual goals are materialistic in their value. And this is the conflict that is going on there. In this process, the totality of man's experiences created what we call a separate identity and a separate mind. But actually, if you want to experience anything, be it your own body or your own experiences, you have no way of experiencing them without the use of the knowledge that is passed on to us. In other words, I would say that thought is memory. But we have been made to believe that human beings are created for a nobler and grander purpose than the other species on this planet and it is that belief that is responsible for our thinking that the whole creation is created for the benefit of man. Everything that is born out of thought is destructive, anything that we discover. The laws of nature or whatever you call it are used by us only for destructive purposes. And it is true that we have discovered quite a few of nature's laws and the theories are constantly changing. Thought is not the instrument for achieving anything other than the goals set before us by our culture or society or whatever you want to call it. The basic problem we have to face today is this. The cultural input, or what society has placed before us as the goal for all of us to reach and attain, is the enemy of this living organism. Thought can only create problems. It cannot help us to solve any.

What I am talking about is not a thoughtless state. Even the invention of what is called a thoughtless state, placed before us by many spiritual teachers as a goal to be reached, is created by thought so that it can, by pursuing what it calls a thoughtless state, maintain its own continuity. So whatever we experience in this process of achieving the goal of a thoughtless state strengthens and fortifies the very thing that we are trying to be free from. It is thought that has invented the ideas of cause and effect. There may not be any such thing as a cause at all. Every event is an individual and independent event. We link up all these events and try to create a story of our lives but actually every event is an independent event. If we accept the fact that every event is an independent event in our lives it creates a tremendous problem of maintaining what we call identity. And identity is the most important factor in our lives. We are able to maintain this identity through the constant use of memory which is also thought. This constant use of memory or identity or whatever you call it is consuming a tremendous amount of energy and it leaves us with no energy to deal with the problems of our living. Is there any way that we can free ourselves from the identity? Through dialectical thinking about thinking itself we are only sharpening that instrument. All philosophies help us only to sharpen this instrument. Thought is very essential for us to survive in this world but it cannot help us in achieving the goals that we have placed before ourselves. The goals are unachievable through the help of thought. The quest for happiness is impossible because there is no such thing as permanent happiness. There are moments of happiness and there are moments of unhappiness but the demand to be in a permanent state of happiness is the enemy of this body. This body is interested in maintaining its sensitivity of the sensory perceptions and also the sensitivity of the nervous system. That is very essential for the survival of this body. If we use that instrument of thought for trying to achieve the impossible goal of permanent happiness the sensitivity of this body is destroyed. Therefore, the body is rejecting all that we are interested in--permanent happiness and permanent pleasure. So, we are not going to succeed in that attempt to be in a permanent state of happiness. Through a repetitive process we are sharpening that instrument but we are using tremendous

amounts of energy in this process. If the use of thought is limited to achieve only what we consider to be materialistic values and not our spiritual goals, what is it that is not possible for us in order to function sanely and intelligently? It does not mean that I am teaching a materialistic philosophy or any such thing. Thought is not intended for achieving spiritual goals or even to find out the significance, meaning or purpose of life or to be used for the quest for permanence or permanent pleasure. A guru is one who tells you to throw away all the crutches that we have been made to believe are essential for our survival. The true guru tells you, Throw them away and don't replace them. You can walk and if you fall you will rise and walk again. Such is the man whom we consider or even tradition considers to be the real guru and not those who are selling those shoddy pieces of goods in the market place today. It is a business It has become a holy business to people. I am not condemning anything but as long as you depend upon somebody for solving your problems so long you remain helpless. And this helplessness is exploited by the people who actually do not have the answers to your problems but they give you some sort of a comforting. People are satisfied with and fall for this kind of thing instead of dealing with the problems by themselves and for themselves. There is no need for me to free you or enlighten you because to do that I must have an image of myself and in relationship to that an image of you. To be an individual and to be yourself you don't have to do a thing. Culture demands that you should be something other than what you are. What a tremendous amount of energy we waste trying to become that! If that energy is released what is it that we can't do? How simple it would be for every one of us to live in this world! It is so simple. The uniqueness of every individual cannot express itself because of the stranglehold of the experiences of others. After all, you don't exist, and I don't exist. You and I have been created by the totality of those experiences, and we have to use them in order to function sanely and intelligently in this world. It is something like, to use my favorite phrases, lightning hitting you, a jolt of lightning hitting

you, and you don't know what you are left with. You have no way of finding out for yourself and by yourself what has happened to you. Has anything happened to me at all? But one thing I can say with certainty is that the very thing that I searched for all my life was shattered to pieces. The goals that I had set for myself--self-realization, God-realization, transformation, radical or otherwise, or even enlightenment--were all false and there was nothing there to be realized and nothing to be found there. The very demand to be free from anything, even from the physical needs of the body just disappeared and I was left with nothing. Therefore, whatever comes out of me now depends upon what you draw out of me. I have actually and factually nothing to communicate because there is no communication possible at any level. The only instrument we have is the intellect. We know in a way that this instrument has not helped us to understand anything. So when once it dawns on you that this is not the instrument and that there is no other instrument with which to understand anything you are left with this puzzling situation that there is nothing to understand. In a way it would be highly presumptuous on my part to sit on a platform or accept invitations like this and try to tell people that I have something to say, that I have come into something extraordinary which nobody has come into. But what I am left with is something extraordinary; extraordinary not in the sense that it has been possible for me through any effort or volition of mine but in the sense that everything that every man thought, felt and experienced before is thrown out of my system. So you can say that it is indeed a courageous thing that has happened to me. But I cannot tell people that through courage you can put yourself into that kind of situation. It is very difficult to tell people how it all happened to me. They are only interested in finding out how it happened to me because their only interest is to find out the cause, find out what led me into this. But when I tell them that it is acausal it is very difficult for them to understand and accept it. Their interest is to find out a cause and make it happen to them. You see, when I was listening to J. Krishnamurti it suddenly dawned on me, Why the hell have I been listening to this man? From his description I feel that I am in the same state as that man." I said to myself that I was in the same state as that man, assuming for the moment that

he was in the same state that he was describing and in the same state that the great spiritual teachers were in. "What the hell have I been doing all my life? Why the hell am I sitting here listening to him?" I then walked out with just one single thought whirling in me, as it were, like in a whirlpool. "How do you know that you are in the same state?" I understand that the question implies that I was familiar with the descriptions of various states. I had tried to simulate them in me and experience them and that is all there is to it. So this question went on and on. But suddenly this question also disappeared. I said to myself that there is no reason for me to feel grateful to anybody, to express my thanks to anybody. Whatever has happened to me has happened despite listening to this teacher or that teacher or doing this, that or the other. But if I say all this it is something which is not very interesting to people. They want to know and I tell them that I myself do not know. I cannot look at myself and tell myself that I am an enlightened man, that I am a free man, that tremendous changes have taken place in me. So I use this phrase which we very often hear on the commercials. It is not something like before and after the wash. No washing has helped me to reach anywhere. It is just a happening. I still have to use the word happening because there is no other way that I can communicate this and give a feel of this to anybody else. What is reported in the so-called story of my life is a garbled version of what I actually felt at that time. Anyway, anything I say today is irrelevant because I don't know what I felt at that particular moment and there is no way I can relive that experience from here. I said to myself, What is it that he has? If there is anybody in this world who can receive it, it is I." I said this to myself and walked out. That, in a way, decided another phase of my life. The old traditional approach to the whole question of enlightenment was thrown out of my system although I continued to read books on religion, studied philosophy, psychology and science. I tried to find out answers from those people who have not been contaminated by the traditional teachings. I got interested in Western philosophy and science and tried to find the answer to my basic question. My basic question was one question, Where is this mind that we are so concerned about, that we are trying to understand, study and change? Why do we talk of a total change in the

makeup of the mind? I don't see any such thing as mind there at all, let alone a transformation or mutation of the mind." This question always intrigued me and I questioned everybody about the mind. I tried to get answers from every area of human thought but nothing helped me to find out the answers to those questions. At that time I didn't have the certainty that I have today. The certainty I have today that there is no mind is something which I cannot transmit to anybody however hard I may try because the very thing which we are using to communicate is in jeopardy and you are not ready to accept that possibility. They made a tremendous structure out of that philosophical thought. They talked of the void. They talked of emptiness. You know, the whole Buddhist philosophy is built on the foundation of that no mind. Yet they have created tremendous techniques of freeing themselves from the mind. All the Zen techniques of meditation try to free you from the mind. The very instrument that we are using to free ourselves from the thing called mind is the mind. Mind is nothing other than what you are doing to free yourself from the mind. But when it once dawns on you by some strange chance or miracle that the instrument that you are using to understand everything is not the instrument and that there is no other instrument, it hits you like a jolt of lightning. Do you think these frontiers are going to disappear? They are not. Those who have entrenched themselves, those who have had the monopoly of all the world's resources so far and for so long, if they are threatened to be dislodged, what they would do is anybody's guess. All the destructive weapons that we have today are here only to protect that monopoly. But I am sure that the day has come for people to realize that all the weapons that we have built so far are redundant and that they cannot be used anymore. We have arrived at a point where you cannot destroy your adversary without destroying yourself. So it is that kind of terror and not the love and brotherhood that have been preached for centuries that will help us to live together. Until this percolates to the level of human consciousness in the sense that man sees that he cannot destroy his neighbor without destroying himself I don't think it will help. I am sure that

we have come to that point. Whenever and wherever you have an edge over your adversary or your neighbor you will still continue to exercise what you have been holding on to for centuries. So how are you going to solve the problem? All utopias have failed. The whole mischief originated in the religious thinking of man. Now there is no use in blaming the religious thinking of man, because all the political ideologies, even your legal structures, are the warty outgrowth of the religious thinking of man. It is not so easy to flush out the whole series of experiences which have been accumulated through centuries and which are based upon the religious thinking of man. There is a tendency to replace one belief with another belief, one illusion with another illusion. That is all we can do. Anything that is born out of thought is destructive. You may cover it up with all wonderful and romantic phrases, Love thy neighbor as thyself". Don't forget that in the name of "Love thy neighbor as thyself", millions and millions of people have died, more than in all the recent wars put together. But we now have come to a point where we can realize that violence is not the answer, that it is not the way to solve human problems. So, terror seems to be the only way. I am not talking of terrorists blowing up churches, temples and all that kind of thing, but the terror that if you try to destroy your neighbor you will possibly destroy yourself. That realization has to come down to the level of the common man. This is the way the human organism is functioning too. Every cell is interested in its own survival. It knows in some way that its survival depends upon the survival of the cell that is next to it. It is for this reason that there is a sort of cooperation between the cells. That is how the whole organism can survive. It is not interested in utopias. It is not interested in your wonderful religious ideas. It is not interested in peace, bliss, beatitude or anything. Its only interest is to survive. That is all it is interested in. The survival of a cell depends upon the survival of the cell next to it. And your survival and my survival depend upon the survival of our neighbor. As long as there is division, as long as there is a separation within you, so long do you maintain that separation around you. When everything fails, you use the last card, the trump in the pack of cards, and call it love. But it is not going to help us and it has not helped us at all.

Even religion has failed to free man from violence and from ten other different things that it is trying to free us from. You see, it is not a question of trying to find new concepts, new ideas, new thoughts and new beliefs. The human being modeled after the perfect being has totally failed. That has not touched anything there. Your value system is the one that is responsible for the human malady, the human tragedy-- forcing everybody to fit into that model. You cannot do anything by destroying the value system because you replace one value system with another. Even those who rebelled against religion like those in the communist countries have themselves created another kind of value system. Revolution does not mean the end of anything. It is only a revaluation of our value system. The only answer to this human problem, if there is any answer, is not to be found through new ideas, new concepts or new ideologies but through bringing about a change in the chemistry of the human body. Do you really think that there is freedom in the United States? What does that mean to a starving man--freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom of the press? He does not know how to read the newspapers and is not interested in them. At least in the communist systems they fed, clothed and sheltered people, though that is now being denied to them in those nations. There is more unemployment than ever before in the Western countries. I don't think this is the model for the whole of mankind. The whole system depends upon the exploitation of the resources of the world for the benefit of the Western nations. These laws that you are talking about are always backed by force. Ultimately, it is the force that counts. We all agree to submit ourselves to the decision of the judge. If you don't want to submit to them the only recourse you have is to use violence. So all the gangsters get together and create a legal structure which is favorable to them. That they enforce on others through the help of violence, through the help of force. As long as it is advantageous to you, you talk of law. When the law fails, you use force. The demand to understand and bring about a change in you is the one that is responsible for the demand to understand the world and then bring about a change in the world. They are one

and the same. That is why you are interested in listening to others. Through that listening you think you will be able to bring about a change in you and then also a change in the world around you. Basically, there is no difference between what is here and what is out there in the world. There is no way you can draw a line of demarcation. One thing that I always emphasize is that it is culture that has created us all for the sole purpose of maintaining its status quo and its continuity. So, in that sense, I do not see that there are any individuals at all. At the same time, the same culture has given us the hope that there is something that you can do to become an individual and that there is such a thing as free will. Actually, there is no free will at all. The most important thing for us to realize is that thought is a very destructive weapon and that thought is our enemy. However, we are not ready to accept the fact that thought can only create problems but cannot help us to solve them. My point is that there is nothing there to be changed. What these gurus in the marketplace are doing is to sell you some ice packs and provide you with some comforters. But when you come to me you find it very difficult for the simple reason that I do not offer you any solutions to your problems. My interest is to point out that there are actually no problems and what we are saddled with are only solutions. Also, we are not ready to accept the fact that the solutions that these people have been offering us for centuries are not really the solutions. If they were really the solutions, the problems would have been solved long ago. If they are not the solutions, and if there are no other solutions, then there are no problems to be solved. I am afraid that the rise of Islam, not only in the Moslem world but also in Russia and China, is going make it a formidable force. Once this cry of holy war, jihad, spreads around we will not know how to tackle that problem. I am not singing a doomsday song. That is what you are going to face very soon. Islam is going to be a formidable force in the world. I don't know I am not a prophet, I cannot say anything. But like anybody else I can hazard, if I may use the word, a view of the shape of things to come. I don't know for sure and nobody knows, for that matter, what will happen. There is one thing that I want to say, emphasize, and overemphasize--that there is no way we

can reverse the whole thing. We are heading towards a disaster. Man must realize, and there seems to be no hope of his coming to terms with the reality of the situation, that thought and all that is born out of our thinking are the enemy of mankind and there is nothing to replace that. Religious revivalism is not really the answer. I personally feel that the basic question which we all should ask ourselves is, "What kind of a human being you want on this planet?" Unfortunately, culture, whether it is Oriental or Occidental, has placed before us the model of a perfect being. That model is patterned after the behavior of the religious thinkers of mankind who have done more harm than good. Everything that we are confronting today is a product of the religious thinking of man but that thinking has no answers for the future of mankind. So if you want you have to find answers within the framework of the systems that have failed to deliver the goods. I don't think religious thinking has any answers for our problems today. Nobody knows anything about life and there is no point in defining it. Anything that we say of life is speculation on our part. What we are trying to understand or experience, life or whatever, is through the help of the knowledge we have of it but thought is something dead. It is something that can never touch anything living. The moment it tries to touch life and capture it, contain it and give expression to it, it is destroyed by the living quality of life. What we mean by life, however, is not actually life but living. Living is our relationship with the people around us, the life around us, with the whole world around us, and that is all we know. That relationship is actually not a basic relationship but a relationship that is born out of our demand to become one with life. So anything we do, any attempt we make to become one with it, is fruitless because there is no way we can establish any relationship with the life around us. I am not for a moment assuming or emphasizing that we are not part of it. We are part of it but the most important question which we should ask ourselves is, "What is it that separates us from the life around us and what is it that maintains the separateness or division, if I may use the word, all the time?" Actually, what divides us is thought. Thought is matter but that matter cannot stay there for long. The moment the matter is born it has to become part of the energy

again. But this demand on our part or on the part of thought to maintain continuity is the demand that drives us to experience the same thing over and over and over again. And thus we are maintaining this superficial, artificial, non-existent duality, division there between our life and the life around us. It is only an assumption on our part, and I would say it is a false assumption, that thoughts are spontaneous and self-generated. They are not. Thought is only a response to stimuli. The brain is not really a creator, it is just a container. The function of the brain in this body is only to take care of the needs of the physical organism and to maintain its sensitivity whereas thought, through its constant interference with sensory activity, is destroying the sensitivity of the body. That is where the conflict is. The conflict is between the need of the body to maintain its sensitivity and the demand of thought to translate every sensation within the framework of the sensual activity. I am not condemning sensual activity. Mind or whatever you want to call it is born out of this sensuality, so all activities of the mind are sensual in their nature whereas the activity of the body is to respond to the stimuli around it. That is really the basic conflict between what you call the mind and the body. I don't think there is any such thing as mind separate from the activity of the brain. The body is not interested in sensual activity. It is not interested in any experiences that the mind is interested in and is demanding. It is not even interested in the so-called spiritual experiences, the religious experiences like bliss, beatitude, immensity and happiness. Happiness is something which the body is not interested in. It cannot take it for long. Pleasure is one of the things that it is always rejecting. The body does not know and does not even want to know anything about happiness. Happiness is a cultural input there. Is there any such thing as happiness? I would say, no. So the quest for happiness is a cultural input and that is the common desire that we know exists everywhere in every part of the world. That is what we all want and that want is the most important want in human beings everywhere. Happiness, if you want to use that word, is like any other sensation. The moment thought separates itself from what is called the sensation of happiness, the demand to keep that sensation going longer than its natural duration also

occurs with it. So any sensation, however extraordinary, however pleasant it may be, is rejected by the body. Keeping that sensation going longer than its duration of life is destroying the sensitivity of the sensory perceptions and sensitivity of this living organism. That is the battle that is going on there. If you do not know what happiness is you will never be unhappy. There is no individual there at all. Culture, society or whatever you want to call it has created you and me for the sole purpose of maintaining its own continuity but at the same time we are made to believe that you have to become an individual. These two things have created this neurotic situation for us. There is no such thing as an individual and there is no such thing as freedom of action. I am not talking of a fatalistic philosophy or any such thing. It is this fact that is frustrating us. The demand to fit ourselves into that value system is using a tremendous amount of energy and there is nothing we can do to deal with the living problems here. All the energy is being consumed by the demands of the culture or society or whatever you want to call it to fit you into the framework of that value system. In the process, we are not left with any energy to deal with the other problems. But these problems, that is, the living problems, are very simple. To survive in this world is not a difficult problem, you see. But what is demanding is the value system. Our effort to fit ourselves into that value system is consuming a tremendous amount of energy. It is just not possible to establish any relationship with anything around you including your near and dear ones except on the level of what you can get out of the relationship. You see, the whole thing springs from this separation or isolation that human beings live in today. We are isolated from the rest of creation, the rest of life around us. We all live in individual frames. We try to establish a relationship at the level of, What do I get out of that relationship? We use others to try and fill this void that is created as a result of our isolation. We always want to fill this emptiness, this void, with all kinds of relationships with people around us. That is really the problem. We have to use everything--an idea, a person, anything we can get hold of--to establish relationships with others. Without relationships we are lost

and we don't see any meaning, we don't see any purpose. This is because your only interest is to create a purposeful and meaningful relationship with the individuals and the world around you. Therefore, you want to understand the reality of the world but there is nothing to understand. There is no such thing as reality at all. Anything you do to understand the reality of the world is not going to be useful, helpful or meaningful. The living organism is like a computer with an extraordinary intelligence. But here the energy is a sort of expression of life. Energy is already there but you are all the time asking questions. These are two computers talking but you want to introduce an element which is not part of the functioning of this living organism. That is why you begin to think that there must be something different here. You are more intelligent than I am. You see, this is something which can be measured. We have certain yardsticks in the world that say that you are more intelligent than I am. But any attempt on my part to improve my intelligence, change it, modify it, make it better, would consume tremendous amounts of energy, that is all. You see, without that what you are left with is something extraordinary. It is not interested in comparing itself with your intellect or anything. It is not a question of accepting that I am a low grade moron. When once it is a fact that there is no movement in any direction of improving, changing or evolving into anything different or better then what is there is something extraordinary. It is unique in its own way. Every individual is unique. Nature creates perfect species, unlike religion and education which attempt to create perfect individuals. Every human being is different, that is all I am saying. There is nobody like you anywhere in this world. I tell you, nobody! I am talking physiologically, you know. But we ignore that and try to put everybody in a common mold and create what we call the greatest common factor, all the time trying to educate them and fit them into the value system. If that value system does not work, naturally revolutions take place. The whole idea of restructuring is nothing but a revaluation of the old value system. Revolution only means revaluation of our value system. It is the same thing. After a while things settle down and then they go at it again. There is no improvement again or there is a slight improvement but it is

basically a modified continuity of the same. In that process, what horrors we have committed, you know! Is it really worth all that? But you seem to think that it is. After killing so many people you go back to the same system, the same technique. What is the point? But we will keep going that way. The questions, "Is there any meaning? Is there any purpose?" take away the living quality of life. You are living in a world of ideas. Anything I say would not be of much interest to people. When people ask me whether there is any such thing as reincarnation, my answer is that there is reincarnation for those who believe in it, and there is no reincarnation for those who do not believe in it. It is not a clever answer, because it is the belief which is important. If you ask a fundamental question, "Is there any such thing as reincarnation as the other laws in nature like gravity?" my answer would be negative, a definite no. It is not as much part of nature as gravity is but if you want to believe that it is so it is a different matter. The belief in reincarnation is born out of the demand that something will continue after your so-called death. It is the same mechanism which wants to know what will happen after death. For exactly the same reason you are asking the question, "Is there any meaning, is there any purpose in life?" For some reason, that mechanism, that movement of thought, does not want to come to an end. You have seen people dying there. So the belief that there is a center here, that there is a spirit here, that there is a soul here, is what is responsible for that belief that there must be something beyond but if you want to know if there is anything beyond, you have to die now. When the question or belief about that comes to an end death will take place here right now, clinical death will take place. Then the question whether there is an afterlife would not at all arise because the living organism has no way of knowing that it is alive. The belief has to go. The end of belief is death. But you replace one belief with another, one illusion with another illusion. That is all that we are doing. Wherever there is division there can't be love. We are trying to bridge this gap, which is horrible for us, which has no meaning, which is demanding something from us, with this fancy idea that there must be love between these two individuals. Obviously, our relationships are

not so loving. So we want to somehow make them into loving affairs, loving relationships. What an amount of energy we are putting into making our relationship into a loving thing! It is a battle, a war. It is like preparing yourself all the time for war hoping that there will be peace, eternal peace, or this or that. You are tired of this battle and you even settle for that horrible, non-loving relationship. And you hope and dream one day it will be nothing but love. Love thy neighbor as thyself. In the name of that how many millions of people have been killed? More than all the recent wars put together. How can you love thy neighbor as thyself? It is just not possible. Obviously, otherwise why are so many people, women, children and helpless people killed? Sexuality, if it is left to itself as it is in the case of other species, other forms of life, is merely a biological need because the living organism has this object to survive and produce one like itself. Anything you superimpose on that is totally unrelated to the living organism. But we have turned that, what you call sexual activity, which is biological in its nature, into a pleasure movement. I am not saying anything against the pleasure movement. I am not interested in saying that you should condemn that or become promiscuous or use sex as a means of spiritual attainment; no. It is a very simple functioning of the living organism. The religious man has turned that into something big and concentrated on the control of sex. After that the psychologists have turned that into something extraordinary. All commercialism is related to sex. How do you think it will fall into its proper place? I am just pointing out the use to which we are putting that simple biological function. I am not condemning it. It is there, you see. Your talk of that as an expression of love has no meaning to me. We would love to put it that way because it is very comforting. If sex is used only for the biological purpose it is not really a devastating situation. If you leave it as it is it wouldn't be so horrible, the way you would like to put it, it would fall into its proper place. That is why we have invented all these other things--God, truth, and reality-which are nothing but ultimate pleasures. Look at this moment. It's wonderful! I don't write poetry. The next moment I am looking at

you, you are as beautiful as the ocean there, probably more beautiful. You see, if I am freed from all the ideas that I have of beauty, there is something that is extraordinary there. Nothing needs to be done to change anything. Things are changing in their own ways. We are afraid of coming to an end. There is nothing here to come to an end. Nothing will come to an end except the one that does not want to come to an end. It is interested in preserving itself somehow, in some way, even beyond death. You see, it is not going to succeed.

Chapter Five: 1990 -- Various places There is no process to go through to reach anywhere. It looks like I went through some process. No, I did not. I wasted so many years of my life in pursuit of the goals that I had set for myself. If it had dawned on me during the early stages of my life that there is nothing to understand, I wouldn't have wasted all that time. But I don't see any way of comparing what I did with what I stumbled into. The fundamental mistake that humanity made somewhere along the line was to experience this separateness from the totality of life. At that time, there occurred in people this selfconsciousness which separated them from the life around. They were so isolated that it frightened them. The demand to be part of the totality of life created this tremendous demand for the ultimate. We thought that the spiritual goals of God, truth or reality would help us to become part of the whole again but the very attempt to become one or integrated with the totality of life has kept us only more separate. Isolated functioning is not part of nature. This isolation has created a demand for finding out ways and means of becoming a part of nature. But thought, in its very nature, can only create problems and cannot help us solve them. We don't seem to realize that it is thought that is separating us from the totality of things. The belief that this can help us to keep in tune with the totality is not going to materialize. So it has come up with all kinds of ingenious, if I may use that word, ideas of insight and intuition. What we are concerned about is living, our relationship with our fellow beings, with the life

around. By understanding the meaning of life and the purpose of life we are not going to improve, change, modify or alter our behavior patterns in any way. But there is a hope that by understanding the meaning of life we can bring about a change. There may not be any meaning of life. If it has a meaning it is already in operation there. Wanting to understand the meaning of life seems to be a futile attempt on our part. We have been for centuries told what to do. Why are we asking the same question, What to do? What to do in relation to what? What I am emphasizing is that the demand to bring about a change in ourselves is the cause of our suffering. I may say that there is nothing to be changed but the revolutionary teachers come and tell us that there is something there in which you have to bring about a radical revolution then we assume there is such a thing as soul, spirit or the self. What I assert all the time is that I haven't found anything like the self or soul there. This question haunted me all my life and suddenly it hit me, There is no self to realize. What the hell have I been doing all this time? You see, that hits you like lightning. Once that hits you, the whole mechanism of the body that is controlled by this thought is shattered. What is left is the tremendous living organism with an intelligence of its own. What you are left with is the pulse, the beat and the throb of life. There must be something more and we have to do something to become part of the whole thing. Such demands have arisen because of our assumption that we have been created for a grander purpose than that for which other species on this planet have been created. That's the fundamental mistake we have made. Culture is responsible for our assuming this. We thus come to believe that the whole creation is for the benefit of man. The demand to use nature for our purposes has created all the ecological problems. It is not such an easy thing for us to deal with these problems. The point is we have probably arrived at a place where there is no going back. What is the fate of mankind and what is one to do? Anything that is born out of thought is destructive in its nature. That is why I very often say in my conversations and interviews that thought--in its birth, in its nature, in its expression and in its action--is fascist.

I do not see any meaning or purpose in life. A living thing, a living organism, is not interested in such questions. Don't superimpose varieties of religious experience on nature. Your doing something to go back to your natural state is what is taking you away from it. The natural state is already there and is expressing itself in an extraordinarily intelligent way. The acquired intellect is no match to the intelligence that is there. I was surrounded by all kinds of religious people. I felt that there was something funny in their behavior. There was a wide gap between what they believed and how they lived. This always bothered me but I could not call all of them hypocrites. I said to myself, There is something wrong with what they believe. Maybe their source is wrong. All the teachers of mankind, particularly the spiritual teachers, conned themselves and conned the whole of mankind. So I have to find out for myself and I have no way of finding out anything for myself as long as I depend upon anyone. I found that whatever I wanted was what they wanted me to want. Whatever I thought was whatever they wanted me to think. So there was no way out of this. Somewhere along the line something hit me, There is nothing there to be transformed, nothing there to be changed. There is no mind there nor is there any self to realize. What the hell am I doing? That spark hit me like a shaft of lightning, like an earthquake. It shattered the whole structure of my thought and destroyed everything that was there, all the cultural input. It hit me in a very strange way. Everything that every man had ever thought, felt and experienced before was drained out of my system. In a way, it totally destroyed my mind which is nothing but the totality of man's experiences and thoughts. It destroyed even my identity. You want to become something other than what you are. That creates this neurotic situation. The neurosis in the human species is absolutely essential. We have to maintain this neurosis in order to function in this society. There is no other way that we can function in this society except to live in hope and die in hope. There are some people who have given up but we force them to become functional in this value system which we have created. We even push them to commit suicide lest they become manic-depressive individuals. We are solely responsible for driving all these people into a situation where they have to put an end to themselves. They

don't want to be functional here, they have given up. That is the reason why I say that the psychiatrist is the enemy of this culture because he is forcing all those people who have given up to fit into this value system. Nature is trying to create something extraordinary, a perfect species. That is why each individual is unique. Because of this input of culture it has become impossible for this organism to show uniqueness. We have destroyed the possibility of what nature can do. You only use this paradise that nature has created including not only mankind but all the species that exist on this planet. We are solely and fully responsible for the chaos that mankind has created and there seems to be no way out of it. Every time a so-called savior comes along he says that he is an avatar and that he is the answer to all our problems. This very thing, his claim that he is the answer, adds momentum to the existing chaos and that situation makes it impossible for us to create something new. That is not the way we can resolve our problems. If they are looking for answers they should not look to Vedanta or Zen Buddhism. Those sects don't have any answers for their problems. The scientists and psychologists have to find their answers, if there are any answers, within their own framework. Only then will they be able to help mankind to look at things differently. But there is no way you can go back and revive anything. Once a holy man came to see me. He was claiming that denial of sex is so essential for the spiritual future of man. I said, It's a crime against nature. Nature has not intended you to deny sex. Then he got up and left. How can that abnormal situation be made a model for all spiritual aspirants and why torture them? Why has denial of sex been made the foundation of spiritual enlightenment? As a reaction or a revolt against that, what you call the tantric system appeared in this country. To be attracted is natural. If you are not attracted you are a stone. The body, with its senses, is not a stone. It has to respond to what is happening around it. What touches this body is not your piety or your silence but your anger, your lust and everything that is happening there. That is the response I am talking about.

The actions of life are outside the field of thought. Life is simply a process of stimulus and response, and stimulus and response are one unitary movement. But it is thought that separates them and says that this is the response and that is the stimulus. Any action that is born out of thinking is destructive in its nature because thought is a self-perpetuating mechanism. Any action that is outside the field of thought is one continuous movement, it is one with the movement of life. It is that flow of things that I am referring to, you see. To sidestep the complexities of life is one of the biggest mistakes that we are making. But there is nothing out there, you see. All these godmen, gurus and the flunkies (the most wicked word to use) are offering us a new oasis. You will find out that it is no different from other mirages. We are leaving everything for some mythical certainty offered to us. But this is the only reality, there is no other reality. What I am emphasizing is if your energy is not wasted in pursuit of some mythical certainties offered to us, life becomes very simple. But we end up being wasted, misled and misspent individuals. If that energy is released, what is it that we can't do to survive in the midst of these complexities of the world created by our culture? It is very simple. The attempt to sidestep these complexities is the very thing that is causing us all these problems. What I am saying is not what the mainstream of population is interested in. They hear what they want to hear. What I say is of no interest to them. If you say that God is redundant it is not a rebellion against anything. You know religious thinking is outdated and outmoded. But I go one step further and say that all political ideologies are nothing but the outgrowth of the same religious thinking of man. What I am suggesting is that the very demand to understand the mystery of existence is destructive. Just leave the mystery alone. There was this makeup within me, from the very beginning, of rejecting everything totally. I lived amongst masterminds. They were not ordinary people. I have traveled everywhere and, as I say, I was not born yesterday. I did not come into town in a turnip truck. What I am saying is that this is something that you cannot totally reject through any volition or effort of yours.

Somehow it happened to me. It is just a happening. The whole thing drained out of my system. The parameters that mankind has evolved, the thoughts, feelings and experiences throughout the ages, all this was thrown out of my system. It's a miracle. What I am emphasizing is that whatever has happened to me has happened despite everything I did. In fact, everything I did only blocked it. It prevented the possibility of whatever was there to express itself. Not that I have gained anything, only that what is there is able to express itself without any hindrance, without any constraints or restraints imposed on it by society for its own reasons, for its own continuity and stability. The search is inevitable and is an integral part of it. That is why it has turned us all into neurotics and has created this duality for us. You see, ambition is a reality, competition is a reality, but you have superimposed on that reality the idea that you should not be ambitious. It has turned us all into neurotic individuals. We want two things at the same time. The demands for pleasure and happiness have created the whole religious thinking--God, truth or reality. We demand that there must be something permanent. That is what these religious teachers are peddling. They claim to offer you eternal happiness. Are they ready to accept the fact that bliss, love and compassion are also sensual? This certainty that I have is something that I cannot transmit to you. It does not mean that I will go and burn all the churches and temples or bury all the scriptures (that's all too silly) or that I will become a terrorist and mindlessly kill everyone. You are only trying to fit me into a framework by calling me an enlightened man but you have not arrived anywhere. Even the claimants have not arrived anywhere. There is no other way I can point out the danger that is involved in your seeking whatever you are seeking. You see, there is this pleasure movement. I am not against the pleasure movement. I am neither preaching hedonism nor advocating any -ism or anything. What I am saying is a threat to you as you know yourself and experience yourself so you necessarily have to fit me into that framework. Or else, you put it another way and say that the content of whatever has happened to U.G. and to them is the same but his expression is different. The natural state is the functioning of this living organism. It is not a synonymous term for

enlightenment or God-realization or self-realization. What is left here is this pulsating, living organism. It is outside the field of experience, so it cannot be shared with anyone. That's the reason why I am saying that he, you or it is the medium through which whatever I am saying is expressing itself but you are distorting, correlating and garbling it. Thought cannot help doing that. From then on, understanding is not through the instrument which we are using all the time to understand, the intellect. We have developed and sharpened the intellect through years. So it understood in its own way that it is not the instrument, that there is no other instrument and that there is nothing to understand. My problem was how to use this intellect to understand whatever I was looking for but it didn't help me to understand a thing. So I was searching for some other instrument to understand, that is, intuition, this, that and the other. But I realized that this is the only instrument I have and the hope that I would understand something through some other instrument, on some other level and some other way, disappeared. It dawned on me, There is nothing to understand. When this happened it hit me like a shaft of lightning. From then on, the very demand to understand anything was finished. That understanding is the one that is expressing itself now and it cannot be used as an instrument to understand anything. It cannot be used as an instrument to guide, direct or help me, you or anybody. That explosion that occurred is happening all the time. It is all the time exploding. Any attempt on my part to understand anything at any given moment is exploded because that is the only instrument I have and there is no other instrument. This instrument cannot invent a thing called hope anymore. There is no hope of understanding. The moment it is forming something there it is exploded, not through any volition, not through any effort, but that's exactly the way it happens. It is continuously happening all the time. That is the way life is moving along. It has no direction. The body has no need to understand anything. The body does not have to learn anything because anything you learn, anything you do, is attempting to change, alter, shape or mold yourself into something better. This is a perfect piece that has been created by nature.

There is nothing to die here. The body cannot be afraid of death. The movement that is created by society or culture is what does not want to come to an end. How it came to an end I really don't know. What you are afraid of is not death. In fact, you don't want to be free from fear because when the fear comes to an end you will drop dead. That is its nature. It is the fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead. What you call yourself is fear. The you is born out of fear, lives in fear, functions in fear and dies in fear. When the body encounters a cobra it steps back and then you take a walk. The cobra is a marvelous creature. If you hurt it you are hurting yourself. I mean it physically hurts you, not psychologically or romantically, because it is all one movement of life. What I am saying is that you will never hurt that. The cooperation there springs from the total selfishness of mutual survival. It is that total interdependence for survival on the physical level that can bring about unity. The intelligence that is necessary for survival is already there in the physical organism, you don't have to learn a thing. You need to be taught, you need to learn things, only to survive in this world which we have created, the world of ideas. You have to fight for your piece of the pie. Some joker comes along and says that you should fight without expecting any results. What the hell are you talking about? How can you act without expecting any results? As long as you live in this world you have to fight for your fair share. That is why they teach you, send you to a school and give you some tools. That is what society has done to you but religion comes along and tells you that you should fight for your share without expecting anything in return. That is why you are turned into a neurotic individual. Otherwise, you will fight only for your share. You don't grab the whole thing. You grab the whole thing because you have been taught by religion, culture or something else to do so. Animals kill only for their survival and leave the rest of their game. Every other thing survives on that. When one takes only what is really needed, the rest is there for everyone else, there's plenty. Man has created religion because it gives him a cover. You see, good and bad, right and wrong are like the two ends of the spectrum, one cannot exist independent of the other. When once you are finished with this duality (I am using the word with much caution although I

don't like to use it), when you are no longer caught up in the dichotomy of right and wrong or good and bad, you can never do anything wrong. As long as you are caught up in it the danger is that you will always do wrong and if you don't do wrong it is because you are a frightened chicken. It is out of this cowardice that the whole religious thinking is born. Nothing has happened to me. You and I are functioning in exactly the same way and I am not anything that you are not. You think that I am different from you. I know for certain that you are functioning in exactly the same way that I am functioning but you are trying to channel the activity or movement of life both to get something and to maintain that continuity of what is put in there by culture. That is not the case here. What has created the space between creation and destruction or the time between the two is thought. In nature, there is no death or destruction at all. What occurs is the reshuffling of atoms. If there is a need or necessity to maintain the balance of energy in this universe, death occurs. You may not like it. Earthquakes may be condemned by us. Surely they cause misery to so many thousands and thousands of people. And all this humanitarian activity around the world to send supplies is really a commendable act. It helps those who are suffering. But it is the same kind of activity that is responsible for killing millions of people. What I am saying is that war and humanitarianism are born from the same source. The self-consciousness that occurred in the human species may be a necessary thing, I don't know. I am not claiming that I have a special insight into the workings of nature. You see for yourself. That's why I say that the very foundation of the human culture is to kill and to be killed. It has happened so. If one is interested in looking at history right from the beginning, the whole foundation of humanity is built on the idea that those who are not with us are against us. That's what is operating in human thinking. So to kill and to be killed in the name of God, represented by the church in the West and all the other religious thinking here in the East, was the order of the day. That's why there is fundamentalism. The body is not interested in your techniques of meditation which actually are destroying the peace that is already there. It is an extraordinarily peaceful organism. It does not have to do

anything to be in a peaceful state. By introducing this idea of a peaceful mind we set in motion a sort of battle that goes on and on. What you regard as peaceful is in actuality nothing more than a war-weary state of mind. Every insight you have is born out of your thinking. Your so-called insights merely strengthen and fortify the very thing you are trying to be free from. All insights, however extraordinary they may be, are worthless. You can create a tremendous structure of thought from your own discovery which you call insight but that insight is nothing but the result of your own thinking, the permutations and combinations of thought. Actually, there is no way you can come up with anything original there. There is no thought which you can call your own. I don't have any thoughts which I can call my own-- not one thought, not one word, not one experience. To experience anything you have to depend upon outside knowledge. The recognition of yourself as an entity is possible only through the help of the knowledge. We start this process with children. We do not want that identity to come to an end. We do everything possible to maintain it but the effort to maintain your identity is wearing you out. The constant use of memory to maintain our identity eventually puts us in a state where we are forced to give up yet when someone gives up the attempt to fit themself into the value system they are scorned. Even when we discover the laws of nature, for whatever reason we are interested in doing so, ultimately they are used to destroy everything that nature has created. This propaganda that the planet is in danger is media hype. Everybody has in fact forgotten about it. We are not ready to face this situation squarely. We must not look for answers in the past or in the great heritage of this or that nation and we must not look to the religious thinkers. They don't have any answers. I am not prophesying that there is going to be a paradise on earth, nothing of the sort. There is not going to be any paradise. It is the idea of a paradise, the idea of creating a heaven on earth that has turned this beautiful paradise that we already have on this planet into a hell. We are solely responsible for what is happening and the answers for our problems cannot come from the past and its glory or from the great religious teachers of mankind. Those teachers will

naturally claim that you all have failed and that they have the answers for the problems that we are confronted with today. I don't think that they have any answers. We have to find out the answers if there are any for ourselves and by ourselves. It is amazing that we have tremendous faith in all these religious people who cannot deliver the goods. In a business deal, if your partner refuses or fails to deliver the goods, that is the end of the business relationship but in the area of religion they can get away with just promising something. They don't deliver the goods at all. How we can fall for that kind of a thing is beyond me. The whole con game has gone on for centuries. Why do we allow ourselves to be conned by those con men? There is not a single exception. All these spiritual teachers of mankind from the very beginning have conned themselves into the belief that they have the answers, the solutions for mankind. They cannot deliver the goods. They only give us hope. When once the demand to change yourself into something better, something other than what you actually are ceases, the demand to change the world also comes to an end. The world can't be anything different from what we are. If there is a war going on within us we cannot expect a peaceful world around us, we will certainly create war. This instrument is only interested in perpetuating itself through what it calls understanding which in reality is its own machinations. Nature creates something then it destroys it and creates something else. The comparative process characteristic of thinking seems to be absent. The whole ethical culture that is built by us to shape the actions of man has totally failed. I don't want many people. I am trying to avoid all the seekers and if there are any finders they don't need my help. By allowing myself to be surrounded by those people I am inadvertently participating in the illusion that by carrying on a dialogue or a conversation with me they are getting something. So I discourage people. Even if they just come and sit around me I try to point out the ridiculous nature of this get together. I try to finish it by saying, Nice meeting you all, but still they don't go. They would sit with me for hours and hours. Even if I get up and go away they would be still there sitting and talking. They would be talking about what I did or did not say or what they thought I had said.

Still they keep coming back. Most of those who come to see me are religious buffs of all shapes, sizes and colors. Unless they have some sort of background in all this they can't be interested in this kind of thing. They only come to receive some confirmation from me about what they are interested in but they find that they are not getting anything from me. Still they continue to come. You have no idea of how many thousands of people have passed through the precincts of my homes. Some of them are intelligent enough to realize that they are not going to get anything from me and that there is no point in hanging around. Others are not ready to accept what I emphasize, overemphasize and assert all the time, that whatever has happened to me has happened despite everything I did. Some friends who have been with me for years say that they still have the hope that they are going to get something from me. This, in short, is the story of my life. If you destroy the authority of others, you in your own way become an authority. The whole structure of religious thought is built on the foundation of discipline. Discipline to me means a sort of masochism. We are all masochists. We torture ourselves because we think that suffering is a means to achieve our spiritual goals. That's unfortunate. Life is difficult so discipline sounds very attractive to people. We admire those who have suffered a lot to achieve their goals. As a matter of fact, the whole religious thinking is built on the foundation of suffering. Those who impose that kind of discipline on us are sadists and we are all being masochists in accepting that. We torture ourselves in the hope of achieving something. We are slaves to our ideas and beliefs. We are not ready to throw them out. If we succeed in throwing them out we replace them with another set of beliefs, another body of discipline. Those who are marching into the battlefield and are ready to be killed today--in the name of democracy, in the name of freedom, in the name of communism--are no different from those who threw themselves to the lions in the arenas. The Romans watched that fun with great joy. How are we different from them? Not a bit. We love it. To kill and to be killed is the foundation of our culture. We are not honest, decorous and decent enough to admit that all relationships are built on the foundation of, What do I get out of this relationship? It is nothing but mutual gratification. If

that is absent no relationship is possible. You keep the relationship going for social reasons or for reasons of children, property and security. All this is part and parcel of the relationship business but when it fails and does not give us what we really want we superimpose on it what we call love. So it is just not possible to have any relationship on any basis except on the level of mutual gratification. The whole culture has created this situation for us through its value system. The value system demands that relationships be based on love, but the most important elements are security and possessiveness. When your hold on the other weakens, the relationship wears out. You cannot maintain this lovey-dovey relationship all the time. The relationship between a man and a woman is based on the images that the two create for themselves of each other. So the actual relationship between the two individuals is a relationship between the two images. But your image keeps changing and so does the other person's. To keep the image constant is just not possible. So when everything else fails we use this final, last card in the pack, love, with all the marvelous and romantic ideations around it. To me, love implies two. Wherever there is a division, whether it is within you or without you, there is conflict. That relationship cannot last long. As far as I am concerned, relationships are formed and then they are dissolved immediately. Both these things happen in the same frame, if I may use that word. That is really the problem. You may think that I am a very crude man but if anybody talks to me about love, to me it is a four letter word. That is the only basic relationship between man and woman, but it is a social problem for us as to what kind of a relationship you should have. Unfortunately, we have blown this business of sex out of proportion. It is just a simple biological need of the living organism. But sex has become a tremendous problem for us because we have turned the basic biological functioning of the body into a pleasure movement. You see, if there is no thought, there is no sex at all. It is not just the sex act that is important but the build-up that is there, the romantic structure that we have built around the love play. Here, the build-up is totally absent because there is no way to focus on any particular object continuously. So you see, that has moved from there to here and again from here to something

else, as perhaps, to her movements. It is constantly changing its focus and there is no way that you can maintain this build-up. What is there is only the physical attraction. That you can never be free from, ever. All those people, these saints, are tortured with the idea of controlling that natural attraction, but that natural attraction is something which should not be condemned. You don't tell yourself that you are a god man, realized or enlightened, and that you should not think these thoughts. Why the religious thinking of man has emphasized denial of sex as a means to his spiritual attainment is something that I cannot understand. Maybe because that is the way you can control people. Sex is the most powerful drive. After all, the sex glands have to function. We cannot accept the fact that we are just biological beings and nothing more. It is something like saying that in the field of economics you are not controlled by the laws of supply and demand. But we are not ready to accept the basic, fundamental fact that we are just biological beings and all that is happening within the body is a result of hormonal activity. It is pure and simple chemistry. Problems in that area cannot be solved in any other way than by trying to change the chemistry of the body. I think our whole thinking has to be put on a different track. It is all chemical. If, as they say, desires are hormones, then the whole ethical code and culture that we have created through centuries to control the behavior of human beings are false. So desire cannot be false. Anything that is happening within the organism cannot be false. There is no sex at all without thought. Thought is memory. These experts make fun of me when I say that one of the most important of all glands is the thymus gland. When I discussed this subject with some physiologists and doctors they made fun of me. Naturally so, because according to them the gland is inactive. If it is activated through any external means it would be an abnormal situation. But the thymus is one of the most important glands and feelings operate there without the element of thought. You see, medical technology has ignored that for a very long time. They considered any unusual condition of the gland to be an abnormality and tried to treat it. It is true that when you reach adolescence it becomes inactive and then your feelings are controlled by your ideas. When once this kind of disturbance takes place in the hormonal balance of the human body through this catastrophe, through this calamity, through whatever you want to call it, not only

is the thymus activated but also all other glands such as the pineal and the pituitary are activated. What I have against medical technology is that you want to understand the functioning of these things with a motive. When once you have some idea of how these glands function, how the activation of these things will help mankind, you are not going to use it for the benefit of mankind. What I am trying to say is that the feelings felt at the thymus are quite different from the feelings induced by thoughts. Sex has to be put in its proper place as one of the natural functionings of the body. It is solely, mainly and wholly for the purpose of reproducing or procreating something like this. It has no other place in the functioning of the body. Thought always interferes with sex. It has become a pleasure movement. I am not saying anything against it. After that it goes. Thereafter, what you are left with is the natural functioning of the glands. So we have to revise all our ideas about this whole business of sex. We give a tremendous importance to sex and so the denial of it becomes such an obsession with people. In India, they even moved away from that denial and created what is called tantric sex. It was the highest pleasure that human beings could have, sex through tantra was considered the highest. The fact is that the person is very much there even at the moment when there is peak sex experience. The experience has already been captured by your memory. Otherwise, you have no way of experiencing that as a peak moment. If that peak moment remained as a peak moment that would be just the end of sex. That would be the end of everything. The fact that you remember it as a peak moment and want to repeat it over and over again implies that it has already become part of your experiencing structure. You want it always and then want to extend it for longer and longer periods of time. All these things I observed myself. I did not learn about them from anyone. I saw them happen in my own life. I denied myself sex for twenty-five years pursuing spiritual goals. Then I suddenly realized, Look, this is ridiculous. Celibacy has nothing to do with it. Sex is burning inside of me. Why the hell am I denying myself sex? Why the hell am I torturing myself? That did not mean that I moved to the other extreme and practiced promiscuity as my way of life. Sex is violence but it is a necessary pain for this body.

All creative things are painful. The birth of a child is a very natural thing but to call it a traumatic experience and build up a tremendous structure of theories around it is something I am not concerned with. It cannot be a traumatic experience. To continue with what I was saying, that is why after all this violence you go to sleep. You feel tired. That is how nature functions. All creations in nature are like that. Volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, storms and floods are all part of nature. You cannot say that there is only chaos or that there is only order. Chaos and order, like birth and death, are simultaneous processes. What I want to say is that, unfortunately, society, culture or whatever you want to call it has separated the sex activity and put it on a different level instead of treating it as a simple functioning of the living organism. It is a basic thing in nature. Survival and reproduction are basic things in the living organisms. Look, anything we touch we turn into a problem and sex even more so because this is the most powerful drive there is. If you translate it and push it into an area where it does not really belong, namely the pleasure movement, we will then create problems. When once you create a problem, the demand to deal with that problem within that framework is bound to arise. That problem has to be solved by people, otherwise they become neurotic. They don't know what to do with themselves. Not only that but everything--God, truth, reality, liberation--is ultimate pleasure. We are not ready to accept that. Sex has become a very powerful factor in our lives. That is why there is also a demand to put limitations on it by culture, first in the name of religion and then in the name of the family, law, war and a hundred other things. You talk of the sacredness of life and condemn abortion and then you go and kill millions of people in the name of your flag, in the name of patriotism. That is the way things are. You first create a tension. All this fantasy, all this romantic nonsense, is building up tension. It's really unfortunate that man got away with everything for centuries while society ignored women. Half the population of this planet was neglected, humiliated and treated as doormats. Even the Bible story tells you that the woman is made out of the rib of man. What preposterous nonsense! The other party is also responsible for that. You are praising the

woman as a darling and she accepts that minor role. The woman is also to be blamed for it. I am not overly enthusiastic about all these feminist movements today. It is a revolt that really has no basis. It's more of a reaction. One of the leaders of the feminist movement visited me and asked, What do you have to say of our movement? I said, I am on your side but you have to realize one very fundamental thing. As long as you depend on man for your sexual needs, so long you are not a free person. If you use a vibrator for your sexual satisfaction, that is a different matter. You are very crude, she said. I am not crude. What I am saying is a fact. As long as you depend upon something or somebody there is scope for exploitation. There was a time when I believed that if women were to rule this world it would be a different story. We had a woman prime minister in India and a woman prime minister in Sri Lanka. There was a lady prime minister in England. But I tell you they are as ruthless as any others; in fact, more ruthless. This dream of mine was shattered when I saw that woman there in Jerusalem. So it is not a question of a man running the show or a woman running the show. It is the system that corrupts. Now they are talking of hormones. They say that it is the hormones that are responsible for the violence. If that is so what do we do? Assuming for a moment that the advantage that we have had for centuries is not a culturally instigated thing but a hormonal phenomenon, you have to deal with it in a different way and not put that person on the couch, analyze him and say that his mother or his great-grandmother was responsible for his aggression. That is too absurd and silly. So we have to find some way. The basic question which we have to ask for ourselves is, What kind of a human being do you want? Unfortunately, we have placed before ourselves the model of a perfect being. The perfect being is a god man or a spiritual man or an avatar or some such being. But forcing everyone to fit into that mold is the cause of our tragedy. It is just not possible for us all to be like that. Once upon a time, the scepter and the crown, the church and the pontiffs, were all worshiped. Later, the kings revolted against that and then the royal family came to be admired and worshiped. Where are they now? Others have eliminated royalty and have created the office of

the president. We are told that you should not insult the head of the state. Until yesterday he was your neighbor and now he becomes the president of your republic. Why do you have to worship a king or a president? The whole hierarchical structure, whether of the past or of the present, is exactly the same. This has no value in the sense that whatever I am cannot be fitted into any value system. It is of no use for the world. It has no value for me and it has no value for the world. You may very well ask me the question, Why the hell are we talking about all this? Because you had some questions to throw at me and what I am doing is to put them in a proper perspective. I only say, Look at it this way. I am not interested in winning you over to my point of view because I have no point of view and there is no way you can win me over to your point of view. It is not that I am dogmatic or any such thing. During a conversation like this somebody throws at me words like, Oh, you are very this and very that. Alright, I say, This is my point of view. What the hell is yours? It is also a point of view. So how do you think these two points of view can be reconciled and for what purpose do you want to reconcile them? You feel good because you have won someone to your point of view. You use your logic and your rationality because you are more intelligent than I am. All this is nothing but a power play. You feel good like the people who claim to render service to mankind. That is the do-gooder's high. It is a selfcentered activity. You shamelessly tell others that you are doing a social turn. It is just like any other high. If I admit this, living becomes very simple. You are doing it for yourself and you tell others and yourself that you are doing it for the benefit of others. I believe that the problems of this planet can be solved through the help of the tremendous technology at our disposal. But the benefits that we have accrued through these advancements have not yet percolated to the level of all the people living on this planet. Technology has benefited only a microscopic number of people. When nature has provided us with such bounty, why is it that people are underfed? Why are they starving? How do we change a human being and for what purpose? If any changes are necessary in human beings and if you want them to function differently by freeing them from all the things

that the ethical, cultural, legal structure is failing to free them from and thereby create a different kind of people then probably only genetic engineering could come to our aid. Codes of ethics, morals and the legal structure are not going to help. They have not helped so far. They have not achieved anything. Our pushing people into a value system is a very undesirable thing, you know. You want to push everybody into a value system. We never question that this value system which we have cherished for centuries may be the very thing that is responsible for our misery. But through the help of genetic engineering we may be able to free individuals from thieving tendencies, from violence, greed and jealousy. If you are lucky enough to find yourself where there is no attempt on your part to get out of the trap then it may be a different story. But the fact of the matter is that the more you try to get out of the trap the more deeply you are entrenched in it. This is very difficult to understand. I tell all those who want to discuss with me the question of how to decondition yourself, how to live with an unconditioned mind, that the very thing that they are doing is conditioning them, conditioning them in a different way. You are just picking up a new lingo instead of using the usual one. You begin to use the new lingo and feel good, that's all. But this is conditioning you in exactly the same way. That's all it can do. The physical body is conditioned in such a way that it acts as intelligence. Conditioning is intelligence here. There is no need for you to think. The conditioning of the body is its intelligence. That is the native intelligence of the body. I am not talking about instinct. The intelligence of the body is necessary for its survival. That intelligence is quite different from the intellect which we have developed. Our intellect is no match for that intelligence. If you don't think, the body can take care of itself in a situation where it finds itself in danger. Whenever the body is faced with danger it relies upon itself and not your thinking or your intellect. If, on the other hand, you just think then you are frightened. The fear makes it difficult for you to act. People ask me, How come you take walks with the cobras? I have never done it with a tiger or any other wild animal but I don't think I would be frightened of them either. If there is no fear in you then you can take walks with them. Fear emits certain odors which the cobra

senses. The cobra senses that you are a dangerous thing. Naturally, the cobra has to take the first step. It is one of the most beautiful creatures that nature has created. They are the most lovable creatures. You can take a walk with them and you can talk to them. I don't know, once a friend of mine, a movie star, visited me in an ashram that I was staying in. She asked me whether it was all an exaggeration that cobras visited me and that I took walks with them. I said, You wait till the evening or night and you will be surprised. Later when we went for a walk at dusk not just one cobra but its wife, children and grandchildren, about fifteen of them, appeared out of nowhere. My guest ran away. If you try to play with it you are in trouble. It is your fear that is responsible for the situation you find yourself in. It is your fear that creates a problem for the cobra. Then it has to take the first step. If the cobra kills you, you are only one person whereas we kill hundreds and thousands of cobras for no reason. If you destroy these cobras then the field mice will have a field day and you will find that they destroy the crops. If I find a cobra trying to harm a child or somebody I would tell him or tell the cobra to go away. You know, the cobra will go away. But you on the other hand have to kill. Why do you have to kill for no reason? The fear that they will harm us in the future is what is responsible for such acts but we are creating an imbalance in nature. Because of the constant use of memory, which is thought, to maintain identity, many of the glands which are very essential for the functioning of the living organism have remained dormant, inert and inactive. The pineal gland is, like the thymus, one of the most important glands. That is why they called it the aja chakra. If it is activated in a natural way it will take over and give directions to the functioning of this body without thought interfering all the time. When I use the term natural state it is not a synonym for enlightenment, freedom or Godrealization and so forth, not at all. When the totality of mankind's knowledge and experience loses its stranglehold on the body, the physical organism, then the body is allowed to function in its own harmonious way. Your natural state is a biological, neurological and physical state. We function in a thought sphere and not in our biology. The separative thought structure which is the totality of man's thoughts, feelings, experiences and so on--what we call psyche

or soul or self--is creating the disturbance. That is what is responsible for our misery. That's what continues the battle that is going on there all the time. This interloper, the thought sphere, has created your entire value system. The body is not in the least interested in values, much less a value system. It is only concerned with intelligent, moment to moment survival and nothing else. Spiritual values have no meaning to it. When through some miracle or chance you are freed from the hold of thought and culture you are left with the body's natural functions and nothing else. It then functions without the interference of thought. Nature does not use models. No two leaves are the same. No two faces are the same. No two human beings are the same. I say that no change is necessary, period. Your corrupt society has put into you this notion of change, that you are this and you must be that. Anything that insists that you be something other than what you in fact are is the very thing that is falsifying you and the world. I somehow stumbled into this natural state on my own and I cannot under any circumstances transmit it to others. It has no social, political, commercial or transformational value to anyone. I do not sit upon platforms haranguing you, demanding that you change the world. As things are, you and the world, which are not two separate things, cannot be any different. All these attempts on the part of man to change himself go entirely against the way nature is operating. That is why I am not interested. Sorry! Take it or leave it, it's up to you. Whether you praise me or insult me I am not in the least interested. It is your affair. I don't fit into the picture at all. I am only talking about it in response to your questions. You throw the ball and it bounces back. There is no urge in me to express myself to you or anyone else. You want to make something of what I am saying, to use it somehow to further your own aims. You may say that it is for humanity's sake but really you don't give a damn about society at all. What I am saying cannot possibly be of any use to you or your society. It can only put an end to you as you know yourself. Neither is what I am saying of any use to me because I cannot set up any holy business and make money, it is just impossible for me. I have no interest in freeing you at all. I don't believe in altering you in any way or saving or reforming

society or doing anything for mankind. Society cannot be interested in what I am talking about. Because I am a direct threat to you individually as you know and experience yourself, I am also a threat to society. How can society possibly be interested in this sort of thing? Not a chance. Society is the sum of relationships and, despite what you may find agreeable to believe, all these relationships are sordid and horrible. This is the unsavory fact, take it or leave it. You cannot help but superimpose over these ugly relationships a soothing, fictitious veneer of loving, compassionate and harmonious relationships. All you know is separateness and duration, space and time, which is the frame superimposed by the mind over the flow of life. But anything that happens in space and time is limiting the energy of life. What life is I don't know nor will I ever. You can say that life is this, that or the other and give hundreds of definitions but the definitions do not capture life. It's like a flowing river. It is only your fear of something coming to an end that is the problem. The ending of fear is the ending of you as you know yourself. To me the question of whether God exists or not is irrelevant and immaterial. We have no use for God. We have used God to justify the killing of millions and millions of people. We exploit God. You don't want to read your own history. It's full of violence from the beginning to the end.

Afterword For years before I met UG, I was searching for God and wanted enlightenment, and worked towards it by doing a little bit of meditation, and reading some scriptures and Eastern philosophy as well. However since I didnt have the devotion, perseverance or the will, I was soon bored and disgusted since (these activities) couldnt end my problem of wanting love, or breaking free from boredom and loneliness. At that time I didnt realize that it was not God that I was interested in, but a cure for emotional pain and frustration. That understanding (which I came to with the help of Moorty, my friend in California) hasnt ended the struggle

now either. I came across JKs books and they [resonated instead of rhymed(?)] very well in the beginning but soon I felt that I was going in endless circles of words that made me more confused than ever and since I didnt have what was needed to implement his teachings in real life, I disposed of his books too. (Maybe disposing of his books was the action that came out of reading his philosophy.) Later on, I stumbled upon UG's books and kept going back to them for a few years. I was bamboozled by the simplicity, freshness and vitality in his words. However all that excitement also passed away and I continued on until one day when I felt that I couldnt take the burden of life or the emotional turmoil any more. I needed someone to help and who other to go to but an enlightened person like UG? I asked my friend Moorty about UG's arrival in the US and found out he was going to visit New York in a week. On my first meeting as I walked into UGs room in the Southgate Hotel, I didnt get any special attention from him as he was engrossed in a question and answer session with someone else. I felt a little ignored at first but as I sat there for a few minutes I felt relaxed and not only just liked his presence but at the moment it felt as if I had come across what I had been looking for, something very beautiful and satisfying. I shot occasional questions at him pertaining to God, but they received the same answers as in his books and I just couldnt carry on any philosophical conversation past a couple of minutes. (Talking to UG can be very frustrating. For instance, in response to the question of where did all the questions come from he says the questions are born out of the answers. And if you ask then where did those answers come from it will be just an unending merry go round. Or for example when he says that the human being is born out of culture, and if you ask where did culture come from, there is no satisfying answer to that question either.) For the next few days, for unexplainable and inexplicable reasons, I felt so light being around him and enjoyed the warmth of his company. I took pictures of him, which he never refuses, but hugs and kisses he never obliges. The last day when UG was leaving, I suddenly broke down and couldnt stop crying even though I had the knowledge that attachment breeds pain.

But it was too late for me for UGs arrow had struck in my heart. I had never imagined that I could feel love from a man who says love is a four-letter word. For the next few days after UG left, it felt that I was injured and as if an arrow had actually pierced my heart. It felt more painful trying to get it out. All these years the walls I had tried to build around myself started to fall down. Some kill with hatred and weapons, UG is a man who you feel is killing you with an overdose of love. After UG left I kept in touch with him over the phone and visited him a few more times. During my visits it felt as if he filled my cup with love, hearing his voice and gazing in his eyes made my heart fill with love and joy. After spending a couple of days with him I felt rejuvenated and as if a new person was present in the same body, although every now and then sorrow and emotional pain became deeper and would seem to last forever. There is a lightheadedness every time this storm passes away or as UG says, the peace one experiences is war weariness. For some time in my head I had this beautiful romance going with him but it had no effect on him and the very mention of love met the same response, that it is a fourletter word. Despite what UG says, however, being with him feels like he is an ocean of love that one likes to watch from a distance but is too afraid to jump into. He is like fire, its pleasurable to sit and feel the warmth from far away but you dont want to touch it for fear of getting burnt. Why would I want my own end? While I was enjoying my fantasy, I never saw it coming that the rug was pulled right out from under my feet: UG made himself unavailable. All this time I had gone to see him or called him with an expectation of ending my misery and turmoil, it seemed to end for a while and I felt so refreshed after I talked to him. But soon I realized that I was getting more into this quagmire and before I knew it I felt that the sorrow had become so overwhelming that I couldnt even struggle to overcome it. It is as if you turn into a rock that breathes, with every breath you pray for death but that is of no consequence since breath just goes on. And I ask myself, Do I really want to die? Actually I am afraid of dying and afraid of living, so I find myself stuck between two doors and I dont want to make an exit from either one of them. There is something so intoxicating about UG, it is sweeter than the sweetest nectar but you

cant posses him or have him at your will, and that creates the tragedy of helplessness that one feels when he disconnects from you. It is like a sweet poison, once you start tasting it, it seems so delicious that you cant stop, but once he goes away or you are ignored by him the venom spreads and you feel that you are completely abandoned. You look for something to fall back on but whatever you want to rest on gives way and you are left only capable of holding onto your breath, unless you are busy with some activity. UG surely has helped me psychologically, though it is hard to put my finger on how. But I feel his treatment is very painful. Would I want it again if I knew it would be so painful? I dont think I would have the courage, but out of desperation, yes, I would surrender to it again. As for UGs teaching, I think that even though it apparently seems different and new, from a laymans perspective, someone who is not very informed as a theologian, my view is that it produces the same result as the Upanishads or Bible or Quran. They say the way to enlightenment is meditation or the love of God, that this is the way in which the holy spirit rises from the stomach and goes to the head as kundalini. However in this day and age for someone like me who is incapable of unconditional love or devotion, all the traditional stuff seems boring and I dont have the motivation to follow the instructions in those books. Even though UG expresses ideas such as that masturbation is better than meditation, I have seen that after people have their ammunition of questions unloaded and are left with nothing to argue or question, they just sit there and breathe or fall asleep which is similar to meditation or actually is meditation. So even though he criticizes meditation he is actually putting his friends into a meditative state. And in order to do that he uses this approach to destroy this garbage of ideas we have collected. And this negative approach seems more enticing and novel. UG is actually a living teaching and he himself is the Quran or Bible or Upanishad and for that reason his presence seems to be a lot more potent and powerful then the words in a book. As one gets past the intellectual mental debates about God with UG, once one gets hooked in the heart to him and falls for him unintentionally, it seems to have an affect on the person. And the pain one feels after the encounter is as strong as the love that oozes from him or as my friend Julie says love is already in us, UG just puts in touch with it.

Ravindra Bhalla Boston, Massachusetts April 2004

U.G. (Courtesy Julie Thayer)

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FIRST AND LAST PUBLIC TALK OF U.G. KRISHNAMURTI AFTER HIS CALAMITY
AT THE INDIAN INSTITUTE OF WORLD CULTURE BANGALORE IN THE YEAR 1972

Thursday, July 07, 2005

U.G. KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy J. Thayer)

Let me, at the very outset, thank the authorities of the Indian Institute of World Culture for giving me this opportunity to meet you all here. I was very reluctant to accept the invitation of Mr. Venkataramaiah. But somehow, if I may use that word, I was trapped into this kind of a thing. As Mr. Kothari pointed out, I don't like to give talks at all. You all seem to be very fond of listening to speeches, talks, lectures, discussions, discourses, conversations, and so on. I do not know if at any time you realize for yourself and by yourself that you never listen to anybody or anything in this world. You always listen to yourself. I really don't know what to say. I don't know what you want to listen to and what I am expected to do. This is supposed to be a discourse and a dialogue. I very often point out to those who come to see me and talk things over that no dialogue is possible and no dialogue is necessary. It may sound very strange to you but nevertheless the fact does remain that no dialogue is possible, and yet no dialogue is necessary. If you will permit me, I will say a few words to set the ball rolling, as it were. That's a very hackneyed and over-worked expression but that would serve our purpose. I am going to say a few words about the state of not knowing. How can anybody say anything about the state of not knowing? I have necessarily to use words. Can we use words without indulging in abstract concepts. I say we can. But I do not, at the same time, mean that it is a non-verbal conceptualization. That is a funny thing -there is no such thing as non-verbal conceptualization at all. But, perhaps, a few words like this will enable you to understand the methods of thought prevent you from understanding the limitations of thought as a means to directly experience life and its movements. This state of not knowing is not my particular state. This, I call it a natural state of your being. This is as much your natural state as it is mine. It is not the state of a God-realized man. It is not the state of a self-realized man. It is not the state of a holy man. It is the natural state of every one of you here. But since you are looking to somebody else and you are reaching out for some kind of a state of liberation,

freedom, or moksha -- I don't know what words you want to use -- you are lost. But how can one understand the limitations of thought? Naturally, the only instrument we have is the instrument of thought. But what is thought? I can give you a lot of definitions, and you know a lot of definitions about thought. I can say that thought is just matter, thought is vibration, and we are all functioning in this sphere of thought. And we pick up these thoughts because this human organism is an electro-magnetic field. And this electro-magnetic field is the product of culture. It may sound very inappropriate on this occasion to say that in order to be in your natural state, all that man has thought and felt before you must be swept aside and must be brushed aside. And that means the culture in which you are brought up must go down the drain or out of the window. Is it possible? It is possible. But at the same time it is so difficult because you are the product of that culture and you are that. You are not different from that. You cannot separate yourself from that culture. And yet this culture is the stumbling block for us to be in our natural state. Can this natural state be captured, contained and expressed through words? It cannot. It is not a conscious state of your existence. It can never become part of your conscious thinking. And then why do I talk of this state of not knowing? For all practical purposes it does not exist at all. It can never become part of your conscious thinking. Here I have to explain what I mean by the word consciousness. You and I mean two different things probably, I don't know. When do you become conscious of a thing? Only when the thought comes in between what is there in front of you and what is supposed to be there inside of you. That is consciousness. So you have to necessarily use thought to become conscious of the things around you or the persons around you. Otherwise, you are not conscious of the things at all and at the same time you are not unconscious but there is an area where you are neither conscious nor unconscious. But that consciousness, if I may use that word, expresses itself in its own way and what prevents that consciousness to express itself in its own way is the movement of thought.

What can anyone do about this thought? It has a tremendous momentum of millions and millions of years. Can I do anything about that thought? Can I stop it? Can I mold it? Can I shape it? Can I do anything about it? But yet our culture, our civilization, our education -- all these have forced us to use that instrument to get something for us. So can that instrument be used to understand its own nature? It is not possible. And yet when you see the tremendous nature of this movement of thought and that there isn't anything that you can do about it, it naturally slows down and falls in its natural pattern. When I say that, I do not, of course, mean what these people in India talk about-that thought must be used in order to get into a thoughtless state or into a meditative state. But there is no such thing as a thoughtless state at all. Thoughts are there; they will be there all the time. Thoughts will disappear only when you become a dead corpse -- let me use these two words - dead corpse. Otherwise, thoughts are there and they are going to be there. If all the religious teachers tell us that you are going into a thoughtless state, they are taking us all for a ride. They can promise you that in that thoughtless state -- in that state of silence, in that state of quietness or in that state of a quiet mind or whatever phrase you want to use -- there will be this real bliss, beatitude, love, religious joy, and ecstatic state of being -- all that is balderdash. Because, that state, if there is any state like the state of bliss, it can never become part of your consciousness. It can never become part of your conscious existence. So you might as well throw the whole thing -- the whole crap of these ideas, concepts and abstractions about the blissful states -into a cocked hat, if I may use that American slang. So what is one to do? Can anybody help you? No outside agency can help you. That means a complete and total rejection, as I said in the beginning, of all that man has thought and felt before you. As long as there is any trace of knowledge, in any shape, in any form, in your consciousness, you are living in a divided state of consciousness. He (Mr. Kothari) referred to my coming into a state of not knowing or the calamity,

as I myself refer to that. What happened? I don't know. Suddenly thought has fallen into its natural state. The continuity has come to an end. So what I am saying is not the product of thinking. It is not manufactured by my thought structure inside. Nor is it a logically ascertained premise. But what is happening here is only the expression of that state of being where you do not know what is happening. You do not know how this organism is functioning. As he (Mr. Kothari) himself referred to, this is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. It has no religious undertones or overtones. It has no mystical content whatsoever and at the same time this extraordinary thing, the extraordinary intelligence that is there, which is a product of centuries of human evolution, is able to express itself and deal with any problem and any situation without creating problems for us. Q: May I interrupt you? I was told by people who are around you that when this calamity befell you, you couldn't recognize even ordinary things. You were asking like a newborn child, "What is this?" Even if there was a flower in front of you, you did not know if that was a flower. Then you would ask, "What is this?" And the Swiss lady who was keeping house for you, who was looking after you, Valentine (she is here with us) said, "This is a flower." Then you would ask again, "What is this?" You mean to say that at the time when the calamity took place, all recognition was gone? U.G.: Not only then but even now, as I said, this is a state of not knowing. Since the memory is there in the background, it begins to operate when there is a demand for it. That demand is created by an outside agency, because there is no entity here. There is no center here. There is no self here. There is no atman here, there is no soul here at all. You may not agree. You may not accept it but that unfortunately happens to be a fact. The totality of thoughts and feelings is not there. But there is an illusion that there is a totality of your feelings and thoughts. This human organism is responding to the challenges from outside. You are functioning in the sphere -- so thousands and thousands, perhaps millions and millions of sensations

are bombarding this body. Since there is no center here, since there is no mind here, since there is nothing here, what is it that is happening? What is happening here this human organism is responding to the challenges, or to the stimuli, if I may put it that way. So there is nobody here who is translating these sensations in terms of past experiences but there is a living contact with the things around, that is all that is there. One sensation after another is hitting this organism and at the same time there is no coordinator here. This state of not knowing is not in relationship to your brahman, or your nirguna brahman or saguna brahman or any such thing. This state of not knowing is in its relationship to the things that are there around you. You may be looking at a flower. You may think that it is a crazy state. Perhaps it is, I don't know. You do not know what you are looking at. But when there is a demand for that -- and that demand always comes from outside. "What is that?" And then the knowledge, the information that is there locked up in this organism comes and says that it is a rose, that this is a microphone, that's a man, that's a woman and so on and so forth. This is not because there is a drive from inside but the outside challenge brings out this answer. So I say that this action is always taking place outside of this organism, not inside. How do I know that these sensations are bombarding or hitting this organism all the time? It is only because there is a consciousness which is conscious of itself and there is nobody who is conscious of the things that are happening. This is a living organism and that living state is functioning in its own way, in its natural way. Mr. Kothari: U.G., it appears to me this nirguna brahman, atman, whatever it is -when somebody uses the word bhuma, another uses the word unknown, the third man says akal , the fourth one says something else -- all of them say that this cannot be described, neti, neti. Probably they meant the same thing, I don't know. I think they meant probably what you are saying as totality. As I understand it, brahman means totality. If I would translate this state into terms of those times, probably it is the same thing as being in the state of Brahman and thought which is

limiting the alpa, which is limiting the bhuma, which is limiting the limitless, since it does not function like that, creating an individuality within you. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am translating, but I say that it is possible that the person who listens to you doesn't know the old terms. You are not going to use the old terms because the new terms are your terms. And every teacher, every person who has come into some state like this has generally used a different term, a different word, according to his background. But personally I think you mean the same thing. This is a commentary on what you are saying. U.G.: What do you want me to say? (Laughter) If they have understood what there is they wouldn't be here. They wouldn't go to anybody. They wouldn't ask these questions at all. If they translate what I am saying in terms of their particular fancy or their particular background, that's their tragedy, it would be their misery. It hasn't helped them. This is my question, "Has it helped you?" Why are you hung up on these phrases? They are after all phrases. When once you realize, when once this is understood -- how this mechanism is operating, how automatic it is, how mechanical it is -- you will realize that all these phrases have no meaning at all. You may very well ask me why I am using these phrases. Because you and I have created this unfortunate situation where you have put me here on the dais and asked me to talk and naturally, as I said in the beginning, I have to use words. So the moment I stop talking the whole thing has come to a stop inside. Is that so? It is so here in my case because there is no continuity of thought. We go back to the thing he (Mr. Kothari) referred to about the things around me. Here there is a table. I don't know what it is. And at the same time, if you ask me, "What is that?" I would immediately say, "It's a chair." It is there in the background. It comes automatically, like an arrow. But otherwise, this is just a reflection of this. I don't translate this as bimbavatu at all. But I have to use that word -- this is reflecting the thing exactly the way it is. I don't want to use these metaphysical phrases because you will immediately translate them in terms of your particular

parallel. There is no subject here independent of the object at all. So there is nothing here. What is there is all that is there and you do not know what it is. So now you turn there and this object has just disappeared, there is something else. This has completely and totally disappeared from here and then what is there is a thing that is there in front of me and it is just like this object, exactly the way it is. But you do not know what it is. That is why I say it is a state of not knowing. Probably you will find parallels to these things. What I am trying to point out is the absence of what you are all doing at this moment is the state that I am describing and it is not my state, that is the way you are functioning. May I give an example of what is happening in the field of spectroscopy. I don't read books but sometimes I read magazines. I get interested in these things. They have developed very powerful lenses to take photos of objects. They have developed micro-seconds, nanoseconds and picoseconds. It doesn't mean anything to you and me, it's all technical language. Now they are able to take pictures of objects, say for instance, of this table, every pico second. Every picture is different. In exactly the same way, the reflection of that object is once now; another time, you turn this side, you are back again -- it's again you. But don't translate this in terms of newness and oldness. It cannot be communicated to you at all. This can never become part of your experiencing structure. I am throwing a lot of conclusions at you but even a thing like this cannot be experienced by you at all. I don't know if you understand this. You have necessarily to abstract this in order to experience a thing. So what I am trying to say is that you can never experience your own natural state. This can never become part of your experiencing structure. And what you are all trying to do all the time is to make that -- whatever you want to realize or discover -- part of this experiencing structure. So your experiencing structure and your natural state cannot co-exist at the same time. Mr. Kothari: The way you want to say is that everything is in a continuous flux all

the time. The human eye being limited and the human ear being limited, and the human senses being limited cannot respond to the quick movement of existence. They don't respond, they don't reflect. You say, unless there is a need of recognition -- this thought, this verbalization, this word -- it is just a way of affecting the life within you, and that's all. There is no need to verbalize or translate, if possible. Am I describing what I understand of your state? U.G.: That's what you understand. (Laughter) I am not trying to be irreverent. Mr. Kothari: I am neither. What happens is, it seems to me (is he trying to mislead you by saying...) that all these persons coming to this have tried to express this in terms of what somebody else has said. It is all the time new. It is all the time fresh. It is all the time indescribably beautiful. When they came into the world they have to say. He says it is neither new nor old. It is never old. It is never old because he does not take into the experience. It is not translated unless, as he says, it is needed for translation. Otherwise, every time, life is indescribably, extraordinarily - all that is outside -- is extraordinarily fresh, extraordinarily new, though he doesn't use the words fresh and new. This is how I understand. U.G.: This I must stress, that the need for the operation of thought or the movements of thought to come into being is decided by factors outside of this organism. When and why and how this translation is to come into being is decided by an action outside. The actions are always taking place outside. When there is a demand, the movement of thought probably separates itself for a while to meet the demands of the situation and then it is back again in the movement of life. So thought is only functional in value and it has no other value at all. What is more is that the continuity of thought is destroying the sensitivity of your senses. When the movement of thought is not continuous, the senses begin to function in an extraordinarily sensitive way. When I use the word sensitivity, I mean the sensitivity of the senses and not the sensitivity of the mind. The sensitivity of

the mind is a trick of your mind and you can create a state of mind where you feel sensitive to the feelings of everybody, to the things around you, and wallow in that sickly state of mind and think you are getting somewhere. This is a thing that is there all the time. There is nothing to achieve, there is nothing to accomplish, nothing to attain and no destination to arrive at. And what prevents what is there, this living state, from expressing itself in its own way is the movement of thought, which is there only for the purposes of functioning in this world. When the movement of thought is not there...I have to use the clauses in terms of time, but time is thought. When thought is there, time is there. When thought is there, sex is there. When thought is there, God is there. When thought is not there, there is no God, there is no sex, nothing is there. It may sound objectionable to you to accept my statement... Mr. Kothari: Not at all. U.G.: ...but the drug of virtues you practice, the practice of virtues is not a foundation for it at all. And the practice of abstinence, continence and celibacy is not the path to it. But if you want to indulge in them and feel greatly superior it's your own business. I am not here to reform you. I am not here to lead you anywhere. But this is a fact. You have to understand a fact as a fact. It is not a logically ascertained thing, it is not a rational thing to understand it rationally. A fact is a movement. Truth is movement. Reality is movement. But I don't want to use these words because they are all loaded words. You know all about them. The unfortunate thing about the whole business is that you know a lot about these things and that is the misery of you all. This is a thing which you do not know at all. I am not claiming that I know it. I myself don't know. That is why I say I don't know. It's a state of not knowing. Let alone God, let alone reality, ultimate or otherwise, I don't know what I am looking at -- the very person who has been with me all the time, day and night. That is my situation. If I tell this to a psychiatrist, he will probably put me on a couch and say something is radically wrong with me.

Probably, I am functioning like any other human being. He doesn't understand that. That's his problem, it is not my problem anymore. So all your search -- for truth, God, reality -- you use any phrase you like, is a false thing. You are all on a merrygo-round, and you want to go round and round and round. How can you ask for a thing which you do not know? How can you search for a thing which you do not know? You all seem to know. You have an image of this state from the description of this state probably you have already created. What state? Somebody asked me: "What is the state you are in?" "What State? Mysore State or Tamil Nadu State? What state are you talking about?" This is my response. What is the state you are talking about? This is your natural state. You don't want to understand that. You don't want to be in your natural state. It requires an extraordinary intelligence to be in your natural state, to be yourself. You always want to be somebody else, you want to imitate the life of somebody else -- you want to imitate the life of Jesus, you want to imitate the life of Buddha, you want to imitate the life of Shankara. You can't do it because you don't know what is there behind. You will end up changing your robes from rose to saffron, saffron to yellow or from yellow to rose, depending upon your particular fancy. How can you ask for a thing which you do not know? How can you search for a thing which you do not know? That is my question. So search has no meaning at all. Only when the search comes to an end what there is will express itself in its own way. You cannot tamper with that. You cannot manipulate that. You cannot manipulate the action of the thing which is there, which has an extraordinary intelligence. To be yourself is the easiest thing. And you don't want to be in your state. You'd rather be somebody else, imitate the life of somebody else. That's your problem. To be yourself doesn't need any time at all. But you talk of timelessness, which is a mockery. To be yourself, do you need time? To be a good man, to be a marvelously religious man, to be in a state of peace, to be in a state bliss, naturally you need time. That will always be tomorrow. When tomorrow arrives, you say, "All right, day after tomorrow." That is time, not this metaphysical or philosophical thing, I

am not talking about metaphysical time and timeless. There is no such thing as the timeless. I am making assertions, statements and conclusions -- you will object to them. Take it or leave it. I don't expect you to accept anything that I am saying. You are not in a position to accept or reject it. You can reject it because it does not fit into the particular framework of your philosophy -- Shankara, Gaudapada, Ramanuja, Madhvacharya, God-knows-what -- we have too many of them here. So how can you understand this? The only thing to do is to throw in the towel. Turn your back on the whole business. That is why it takes extraordinary courage, not the courage or the bravado of these people who climb Mount Everest or try to swim across the English Channel, or cross the Pacific or Atlantic, whatever their fancy, on a raft -that is not what I mean. What I mean is the courage... You quote your Bhagavad Gita or your Brahma Sutras, kaschid dhirah. All these phrases, what do they mean? Abhayam brahma -- why do you all repeat these phrases? It has no meaning. It's a mechanical thing. "How are you?" "I am all right, I am fine. Just fine. I couldn't be better." In America, you know... "How are you this morning," "I am just fine. I couldn't be better." In exactly the same way, you throw these phrases at everybody. If you understand the way this mechanical structure is functioning inside of you, you see the absurdity of the whole business of discussing these matters everlastingly. Can you throw the whole business out of the window and walk out? Mr. Kothari: I think what he means is... When I meet him... I have known him for about five years now. And I am many times reminded, on account of my having read the Upanishads and this and that... I am reminded of the Isavasyopanishad, "Asmai nayatu patha!" "Oh fire, takes us on the right path!" I find there is a sort fire in him which sometimes, I fear, would frighten a person who does not understand, quite grasp, even intellectually, what he is trying to convey. As I understand it, he is not advocating anything. His whole approach is... He has no system. He says something

about these states, that this is your natural state. But the whole thing, this achievement business, to get something, like something, comparing something to some imaginary state which one has formulated, an image we got by reading about those things -- that he says is all futile. It is strengthening the mental structure, it is strengthening the thought structure and it is giving a life to it which, he says, is all useless. It is the cause of your very misery, all the problems. It seems he has seen it himself. And the structure went phut, the whole thing broke inside and, as he says, he even does not know. That is the state of unknowing. When he says this, I am reminded of the words of Jnaneswar who says, "I don't know what I am or where I am." Even avidya has gone and vidya has gone also. So I see... only I want to remind some of my listeners here... that the newness of expression, whatever he is trying to convey, is as old as the hills and as fresh as the vibrations from that thing now. It is as fresh or even fresher than the words I am speaking, the sounds that I am throwing at you. It is more fresh than that. It is sanatana and puratana. But, he says, it requires total courage. Another thing that I have noticed in him is a kind of -- I am talking personally about you but, as there is no personality, it doesn't matter. (Laughter) -- a tremendous, fearlessness, abhayam tattva samsuptih. I would again quote the Gita, the daivika sampatti, this is something that does not happen in the usual, normal men in whom the animal fear is functioning all the time, as he says. But he does not come out of that. I don't know how he came to it but a tremendous fearlessness and a sense of abandonment... He is not a perfect specimen of all the wonderful virtues. He gets annoyed and he gets angry also. For a moment you see the cloud of anger on his face and after a minute you see the full moon is again on his face, smiling. The clouds have disappeared all of a sudden. So I say, he says there is no risk in the matter. Probably, in whatever he conveys, there is some suggestion. He says you don't have the courage to throw in the towel. You don't have the fearlessness. "(inaudible)...have got to go." He says, "You throw out the speaker also." I hope some of you certainly have got the hang of what he is trying to convey.

Mr. Kothari: Your question is, when there is hunger and pain in the body, what happens? You mean what happens to him or what happens to you? U.G.: I will tell you. First of all, there is no hunger at all in the sense in which we use the word. It's pure and simple chemistry. And then there is what you call hunger which is like any other sensation, you understand. The consciousness or life, or whatever you want to call it, becomes conscious of that thing and it is gone, it is not there. It does not push you to reach out for food. And so the next sensation is coming. It's a continuous movement. You are looking at something and this is finished. Probably your body will become weaker and weaker if you don't eat food. People give me food, so I eat food. Otherwise, there is no such thing as hunger at all. And the pain, there is physical pain -- since there is no continuity of thought, as I pointed out, there is no continuity of pain. It comes in impulses like that, just the way you are throwing out words. There is no continuity of the pain. I don't want to use the word psychological pain because it gets us involved in... because we will begin to tie things in knots. There is only physical pain and there is no other pain but even that physical pain is not continuous and so it is not much of a pain in the sense in which we use the word. Q: What is the way or method of getting into this state? U.G.: What state? When the movement in the direction of wanting to be into your own natural state or in the state of God-knows-whom you want to be -- your idol or your hero or your master -- it is there, this movement in any direction is taking you away from yourself. That is all that I am pointing out. When the movement is not there you are your natural state. So the sadhana, the method or system or the technique is taking you away from yourself in the direction of the state you want to be in and that is the state of somebody else. As I pointed out, you have the knowledge about this state. Unfortunately, so many people have talked about it. I am already doing mischief, perhaps. Kick them all out on their backs.

Mr. Kothari: Not now! (Laughter) U.G.: Yes, throw stones at me and walk out. Mr. Kothari: They don't have any. U.G.: My interest is to send you packing, as the expression has it. If you can do that you will never go to listen to anybody. Q.: If I throw stones, I will go to jail... U.G.: I will not take you to jail. That's a problem with the society in which you are caught. I can't help you. I will not be the first one to complain about it. Are you not tired? I can go on. That's enough, I suppose. I haven't said anything. What all you think I have said is a bag, you think it makes sense. How can it make sense? If you think that it makes sense, you haven't understood a thing. If you think that it doesn't make any sense, you haven't understood it either. It's just words, listening to this noise -- words, words, words -mechanically coming out of this organism. I don't know how they are coming. I wish I knew. I wish I knew how I got into... what state? It always irritates me when people ask me, "You tell us something..." About what state? What state are you talking about? I know Mysore. I am in the Mysore State. How do I know that I am in the Mysore State? Because people tell me that I am in Mysore. So what state you want to get into? That is your natural state, I am saying. What takes you away from your state is this movement in the direction of wanting to be in some state other than yourself. To be yourself doesn't need time. If I am a village idiot, I remain a village idiot. Finish. I don't want to be an intelligent man. Even if my neighbor takes advantage of his extraordinary intelligence and exploits, good luck. What can I do? To accept the reality, this is the reality of the world. There is no other world. There is no other reality, ultimate reality. This is the only

reality. You have to function in this world. You can't run away from this world. How can you run away from this world, because you are that world? Where can you go? Hide yourself in a cave? Yes, you are taking your thoughts wherever you go. You cannot run away from your shadow. It's there all the time. So you can't do a thing about thought, that's all that I am saying. When you realize the absurdity of all your effort to do something about the thought, it's creating the problem, it's misery for you, you can't do anything. When you can't do anything, when you realize that you can't do a thing about it, it's not there. You are not using it as a means to get something for you. I want to say this again. You desire. If you do not want anything, there is no thought at all. You understand? Wanting is thinking, it doesn't matter what you want -- want self-realization, want God-realization -- you want anything, that means you have to use this instrument. These are not your thoughts, these are not your feelings. You may not like it. They belong to somebody else. You want to make them your own. You have unfortunately made them your own. That's why you ask all these questions. Why do you ask all these questions? These questions have been put before to so many people -- all the sages, saints and saviors of mankind, the holy men dead and alive. They are all ready to answer. They have composed a lot of lullabies. You go and listen to them and go to sleep, if you want to. That's what you are interested in. You want somebody else to pat on your back and say, "Oh, fine, just fine, you are doing very well. Do more and more of the same and you will reach the destination you want to arrive at." What is the destination you want to arrive at? To be gentle, meek, to be soft, to talk and whisper. You know if you go to some of these monasteries in the West, the Trappist, they talk and whisper. They don't even understand what the other man is saying. That's the secret to the spiritual path. Mr. Kothari: When a man is in love, he talks and whispers to his beloved. What objection do you have to anybody talking and whispering?

U.G.: I have no objection at all. I wonder if he is really in love. (Laughter) You don't even have to talk about it. You want to reassure your partner that you are in love with that person. It isn't worth a tinker's damn, that love. That's not love at all. You can call it love. I don't want to go into that. It's a forbidden subject. They ask me, "Do you have anything to say about...?" It's a four letter word. It's like any other word -- dog, pig, love. In love, can there be any relationship at all? Can you have any relationship? This is your problem. You are all the time trying to have relationship with people. You cannot have any relationship with people at all. "Love is relationship. Life is relationship." All that guff, trite crap. You memorize and repeat them. They all become fancy phrases these days. "Freedom," "first and last freedom" and "the freedoms that come in between." -- what is this nonsense? This is like any other trite... any other crap that these people are repeating. You have memorized a new set of phrases, that's all you are doing. You sit and discuss everlastingly all this awareness. What is that awareness you are talking about? How can you be aware of this? Can you at any time be aware of it? If you are aware of this once in your lifetime, the whole structure has collapsed, it has fallen in its proper place. You don't have to do a thing about it. So it doesn't mean a thing at all. You can talk of awareness, choiceless or otherwise, or conditioning. Conditioning, what can you do about it? Conditioning is intelligence. You can't do a damn thing about it. You can't free yourself. If you want to free yourself from your conditioning or uncondition yourself and all that nonsense that is going on.... How are you going to uncondition yourself? You create another conditioning, instead of repeating Upanishads you will repeat some other thing, the fancy books. Q: What is the secret of total happiness? U.G.: There is no happiness. I never ask myself the question. So many people ask me that question, "Are you happy?" What is that question? Funny question. I never ask that question, "Am I happy?" Total happiness is an invention.

Mr. Kothari: Invention of the mind, you mean? U.G.: There is no mind. Where is the mind? Is the mind separate from the body? Distinguished from the body? Apart from the body? These questions have no meaning at all. You have no way of separating yourself from what is going on. The moment you separate yourself means you have a knowledge about it -- the knowledge given by either the biologists, the physiologists, the psychologists or the religious people. So through that you are looking at it. You cannot experience anything without knowledge. You cannot experience this at all, let alone Brahman or reality. You cannot experience this at all. Only through an abstraction. And what is that abstraction? The knowledge you have about it. This has been put there. Your mother told you, or your neighbor or friend told you that this is a table. What the hell is that, you don't know, apart from what you have been told. Every time you look at this, you have to repeat to yourself that it is a table. What are you doing that for? This is my question. This is the continuity I am talking about. You want to reassure yourself that you are there. The "I" is nothing but this word. There is no "I" independent of this word. Maybe you find some parallel in Shankara or God-knowswhat. Mr. Kothari: Plenty, plenty, because this is the same thing that they have talked about. Q: (Inaudible) ...thoughtless state as in "this, this, this." U.G.: Yes, yes. They called it cit. The consciousness I am talking about is a state where there is no division which says that you are asleep, that you are awake, that you are dreaming... There is no division at all. I don't even know if I am alive or dead. This is my state. I have no way of knowing for myself. The doctor can come and say that I want to examine your lung, your lung is functioning alright, there is heartbeat, there is this, that and the other. You are alive. That's alright. I am

delighted. You reassure me that I am a living being but... Q: How do you know at any time that you are in the natural state? U.G.: That, as I said, can never become part of your conscious existence. It begins to express itself. The expression of that is energy and that is action. It is acting all the time. This is not a mystical term. What I mean by action is the action is taking place always outside. The senses are working at their peak capacity all the time. It's not because you want to look at a particular thing. There is no time even for the eyelids to blink for a second. They have to stay open all the time. And when they are tired, it has its own naturally built-in mechanism which cuts off the sensation. And then it's back again. Q: What is that mechanism? U.G.: What is that mechanism? Supposing somebody gives you an answer. So where are you? Can you separate yourself from that mechanism? This is what I am saying. You can separate yourself from the mechanism and look at it only through the knowledge, whether the knowledge is provided by a physician or by a saint or by a sage. And that is worthless because you are projecting this knowledge on what you are looking at, and that knowledge is creating or producing these experiences. That can never become part of that experiencing structure. That's the trouble. You want to experience this. You can't experience this at all, whether it is the consciousness that I am talking of or the living state or the state of not knowing or the things that are there around. How is it expressing itself? It is expressing itself as energy, it is expressing itself as action, in its own way. If I use some words, "It is aware of itself, it is aware of its own incredible death, it is conscious of itself" -- all these phrases may sound very mystical to you -- but you cannot. The brain physiologists, if I may quote somebody -- they are trying to understand the brain and they have to find some means to define... They have defined the brain as an instrument with which we think. They are not so sure. You cannot separate yourself from the brain and its

activity and look at the brain. Can you look at your back and tell me something about your back. Somebody else must come and tell you. And he has his own ideas, fancy ideas. "You have a straight back." The doctor always observes people and from his point of view he would say that that man is sick, this man's back is not correct and so forth. Or if I see a painter, his description is something else. So this is a thing which you cannot communicate to somebody else. Can you communicate your sex experience to somebody else? Mr. Kothari: Why sex experience? Any experience... U.G.: Or any experience, for that matter. That's what everybody is trying to do -- a painter, a poet or a writer. He is trying to communicate some experience, which he calls extraordinary experience, through his medium -- writing poetry, culture. He is like any other artisan. Q: How do you reconcile your existence with the world? U.G.: I don't bother. Do I exist in this world? Does the world exist for me? Where is the world? I am not trying to be clever with all these phrases. I don't know a thing about it. Am I talking, am I saying anything? This is like the howling of a jackal, barking of a dog or the braying of an ass. If you can put this on that level and just listen to this vibration, you are out, you will walk out, and you will never listen to anybody in your lifetime. Finish. It doesn't have to be the talk of a self-realized man. You will realize that there is no self to realize. That's all. There is no center there. It is working in an extraordinary way. Q: In the extinction of sense organs... if the sense organs do not function at all, for instance, there is death, there is a state of not knowing and you still function. U.G.: There is no death. You are never born. You are not born at all. (Laughter) I am not trying to mystify. Because life has no beginning, it has no end. Has it a

beginning, has it an end? What creates the beginning is your thought. Why are you concerned about death? There is no such as death at all. Your birth and your death can never become part of that experiencing structure. If you want to experience death, you are not going to be there. (Laughter) Somebody else will be there. It will be somebody else's misery. *** TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO TAPES U.G.: You want comfort. You want affection from the person you are living with. You want this, that and the other. But what you want to get -- the get of all the gets -- you are not going to. That is in relationship with your enlightenment, your freedom, transformation and all that kind of thing. There is nothing to get from me or from anybody. You want to be at peace with yourself. You will not get anything from anybody. All this is disturbing the peace that is already there. Your idea of peace is altogether different. Q: Now, it looks like... if we had no idea of peace at all... U.G.: You have to live with your ideas and suffer. There is no way out for you. If somebody says there is a way out, go there. Stand on your head, stand on your shoulders, hang from the tree, meditate, do what you like -- misery continues. That is another misery. What are you? You are miserable. You are a sitting misery, walking misery, talking misery, living misery. You want to get out of that misery. You are choked. What is it that is choking you, destroying the very thing that you want? All those human values and all the good things. You want freedom and that is killing you. It is very difficult to understand. To be free from the very demand to be free is all that you have to do. That is not easy. Q: Because there is nothing left...

U.G.: How can you say that now? When you are there that question would not be there at all. That moment is a living moment. Life is not interested in any one of those things. If I put it that way, it becomes a carrot for you. If I talk of life, living moments, it becomes poetry, romantic stuff. It is another carrot. Anything I say will be added to the stuff you already have. This will be another burden. It looks like another new thing but it is the same thing. The newness of it is lost because you have captured it within your framework. That is why I was telling him that you have not moved away from your background. It doesn't matter where you go -- J.K., U.G., Baba Free John -- the basic situation remains unchanged. No matter where you go, you are looking for a new Bible, new church and a new priest. That is all you can do. You can't do anything else. Whatever you need to know to function in this world intelligently and sanely is already there in you. You don't have to do a thing, to learn anything, to function in this world. Whatever you learn afterwards is of no use to you. Knowledge is widening. They say that the growth of intelligence stops by the time you are sixteen. Whatever you learn afterwards is only widening the horizon and not in anyway improving your understanding. As far as the body is concerned, the growth of the body stops by the time you are 22 or 23 years. From then on it is slowly deteriorating. It is aging slowly. The interest of everybody is to stop the aging process. That is all the interest of people. In that sense I am not interested in expanding -- having more and more people. One or two... it doesn't interest me. Moreover, I feel uncomfortable. It is happening in India and it is happening in America. Because there is more and more publicity, more and more curiosity is created in people. I don't know if there is anything to astrology but they say, "You will become the idol of the masses." Assuming for a moment that there is an enlightened one, that man cannot die unless everybody in this world comes to know that there is such a man. They may not even know what he is saying. That is the great tradition. It is in that sense that

this fellow has a message to give. Not like Rajneesh scandals and all that. The astrologer said, "Until that happens you are not going to die. Another 21 years you will constantly move, running away from the people in order to avoid them from following you." I don't know, the age is going to catch up, I don't care what the astrologers say. *** Q: Sir! Do you have samkalpa? I have no English word for that. So I am using the Sanskrit word -- a wish that something should happen. U.G.: You see, there is no gap between my needs and my goals. I have no goal independent of my needs. The needs are the physical needs of the body. There are no other needs. Q: There is nothing connected with what you see? U.G.: No, I don't know what I am looking at. I really don't know. What I know is in the background; and that is brought into operation in response to the demands of the situation. It plays its part and then it is gone. Q: So there is no samkalpa. U.G.: I don't know, thoughts are there. They are not your thoughts or my thoughts, they come and go. They are neither holy nor unholy. You have to use thoughts to achieve something, to accomplish something. Here I can't use thoughts. Wanting is thinking. They go together. My wants are my physical needs. The moment a thought arises there the action is complete. You may feel the time-lag between what I call an action here and the completion of that action out there. But to me there is no time-lag. For example, there is thirst. You have to say to yourself that you are thirsty. Thought has got to come into operation and separate itself from that sensation of what you call thirst. Then the action is complete. That is what I mean

by action. Q: The action is not quenching of the thirst? U.G.: No, that is of secondary importance. In that sense the action is complete. Every action is independent. Life is action. Life is acting all the time. There is not one moment where there is no sensation of some kind or the other. You are responding to the sensations all the time. But, of course, there are some moments the nature of which you will never know. I don't know what you call samadhi or nirvikalpa samadhi. The body has to go through the process of death every now and then to renew itself. It is a renewal process. All the sensory activity has to come to an end for a kshana, a fraction of a second, and it is impossible for you to visualize and capture that. But if the body is in a state of repose it takes a longer time. Sometimes for forty-nine minutes the body goes through a very elaborate process of dying. Somehow it has to snap out of it because there are constant demands on the body. This can hit you all of a sudden while you are walking in the street. But the demands are so great that they cannot allow this for long. Q: After that process of death is there anything like a you? U.G.: You are talking of a you after death. Is there anything like what you call you now? Where is it now? Are you awake? Are you alive now? Q: I feel I am awake. I have come here. I started from home and have come to see you. U.G.: That is true. I also function as if the whole world is real. You have to accept the reality of the world up to a point. Otherwise, you can't function in this world. But I can't say that I am awake. I can't say that I am asleep either. I see and I don't know what I am looking at. My sensory perceptions are at their peak capacity but there is nothing inside of me which says that is green, that is brown and that you

wear a white shirt, a dhoti and glasses etc. No anesthesia has been administered on me but still I really don't know what I am looking at. The knowledge I have about things is in the background but it is not operating. So am I awake or asleep? I have no way of knowing it for myself. That is why I say that in this consciousness there is no such division as jagratta, swapna and sushupti -- aren't those the words for wakeful, dream and deep sleep states? A total absence of this division in your consciousness into wakeful, dream and sleep states may be called turiya -- not transcending these things but a total absence of this division. So you are always -to use your Sanskrit phrase, in the turiya state. Q: Because we are involved in every perception we are not in the state you are describing? U.G.: Because there is a constant demand on your part to experience everything that you look at, everything that you are feeling inside. If you don't do that, you as you know yourself and as you experience yourself is coming to an end. That is a frightening thing. You don't want to come to an end, you want continuity. All the spiritual pursuits are in the direction of strengthening that continuity. So all your experiences, all your meditations, all your sadhana -- all that you do is strengthening the self. They are self-centered activities. Whatever you do to be free from the self is also a self-centered activity. The process you adopt to attain what you call being is also a becoming process. So there is no such thing as being. Anything you do -- any movement, in any direction, on any level -- is a becoming process. *** Q: You say that if this thought barrier -- the protective mechanism -- is removed, then the body responds to or resonates with anything that happens? U.G.: Then there is no mirror which is reflecting. All your actions from then on are

reflex actions. Many of these things are handled by the spinal column. That is why so much importance has been given to the spinal column. Sensations don't reach the sensorium at all. They are handled and disposed off before that. The moment they reach the sensorium, thought has got to come into operation. Then there is an action necessary which is for the protection of the body. *** U.G.: The comparative structure is absent here. When you ask some questions, naturally I use this comparative structure. I have to use adverbs and adjectives because they are part of the language, but really they don't mean anything to me. Not that I am a hypocrite or any such thing. I say, "It is a beautiful thing." Yes, it is a beautiful thing within that framework. I have to accept the reality of the world. Otherwise, I can't function in the world. But actually there is nothing beautiful. There indeed is beauty. That beauty is not an idea, not a concept. It is not a thought. It is a response to something there. Maybe that is why they used the phrase satyam sivam sundaram. They didn't mean this beauty. For example, there is a mountain or some extraordinary thing. Here is a response to that beauty and that response is a sudden change in your breathing. You take a deep breath and look at it. By the time you realize what is happening, you have moved on from there to something else. So you don't sit there and watch the sunset for hours and hours and write poems. Nothing of that sort, because you are moving with it. Q: Isn't a response a reaction to something? U.G.: No, I make a distinction between reaction and response. Reaction is the interference of thought and the translation of thought in terms of the experiencing structure. But the response to the stimulus, or sensation are one movement. You cannot separate the response from the stimulus. For example, you have moved your hand from there. I don't move my hands in response to that movement, but all that movement is felt here. This is the feeling -- not an emotion, not a thought, not any

of those things. If you hit something there, here you automatically say "Ouch!" -the expression of pain, you see. There is nothing here independent of what is happening there. That is why I call this a movement. This is totally attentive. Not that there is somebody who is attentive. Everything that is happening there is registered here as a movement. Where is the movement taking place? Is it there? Is it here? Or where? I can't say, I really don't know. *** U.G.: There are no images for me. Impressions are made through words like the rods and cones. They come out of me in exactly the same way. So there is nobody who is doing that. Memory is extraordinarily sharp. Supposing I want to memorize a poem or something -- it is very difficult for me to do that. It's very strange. So if I look at anything, it is automatically registered. There is no effort. Any effort means that there is a distortion of the whole thing. If there is a demand for that, it automatically comes out without any effort. Sometimes I can't recall names. At the same time, I don't bother even if I don't happen to remember. What I am saying can't be experienced by you except through the help of thought. In other words, as long as the movement of thought is there, it is not possible for you to understand what I am talking about. When it is not there, then there is no need for you to understand anything. In that sense, there is nothing to understand. *** U.G.: You are all occupied. You are interested in listening to what I am saying. I am not interested in telling you anything at all. Do you hear the barking of the dog out there? You translate it and say that is the barking of a dog. But if you are just aware of that, it echoes here inside of you. There is no separation from you. There is no translation. You are barking, and not the dog out there. But one thing I must say. What I am saying is not born out of thinking. This is not a

logically ascertained premise that I am putting forth. These are just words springing forth from their natural source without any thought, without any thought structure. So take it or leave it. You will be better off if you leave it. *** U.G.: They come here and tell me about their spiritual experiences. What do they expect? They want me to pat on their back and tell them, "You are doing alright. Do more and more of the same and you will reach your destination." I can't do that. I emphasize that the experience which you are considering as something extraordinary is totally unrelated to the final thing you are after. This is very difficult to understand. I always give the example of these tremors. Tremors do not mean that one day there will be an earthquake. These tremors have nothing to do with the earthquake. This earthquake hits somewhere else, not at the place you think it would occur. When this thunderbolt hits you, you will find out that all those tremors you have been experiencing during what you call sadhana are totally -- in fact, in no way -- are connected to that. This is very difficult to understand. That is why all those doing sadhana ask me that question: "How do you know that what you did -- all the sadhana -- is not responsible for where you are today?" I can say that now this is not in any way related to what I did or did not do. Not a whiff of it. Then you see the whole business of sadhana collapses. Because the sadhana is always related to the goal you have fixed to yourself. As I was telling yesterday, as a matter of fact, what is going on here is sadhana -- because I am blocking every escape door. Somebody said, "Why don't you leave at least one ventilator open?" Even that has to be blocked. You must be choked to death as it were. Only a real teacher can tell and point out that, nobody else. Nobody else should talk about that. Not that I claim that I am the real teacher or any such thing, don't get me wrong. They are not those who interpret the texts. Only such a man can talk and such a man will never encourage any kind of sadhana, because he knows that sadhana is not going to help.

Life is energy. It is all the time trying to convert itself into energy. In the final analysis there is neither matter nor energy. They are interchangeable. But when thought takes its birth, then it is matter. In its very nature it splits itself into two. If through some luck or strange chance it remains without splitting itself into two, something has got to happen to that. And there it explodes. It is an atomic explosion. The human organism has trillions of atoms. It's an electro- magnetic field. When one atom explodes, it blasts everything that is there. It triggers a chain reaction. You can't make this kind of a thing happen at all. Yet the possibility of its happening in everybody is 100%. Not that I am placing a carrot before you. That is its nature. That is why it happens in one in a billion. "Why does it happen to one individual? Why not me?" If you question in that fashion you ain't got a chance. ***

U.G. KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy of Julie Thayer)

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POEMS DRAWINGS CONVERSATIONS THE NATURAL STATE STOPPED IN OUR TRACKS

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THE NATURAL MAN -- Poems on U.G.


By Larry Morris, Edited and Introduced by J.S.R.L. Narayana Moorty
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TALK DRAWINGS CONVERSATIONS THE NATURAL STATE STOPPED IN OUR TRACKS

Thursday, July 07, 2005

U.G. KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy of Julie Thayer)

Introduction
A collection of poems with a person as the sole subject matter may seem presumptuous and smack of heroworship and religious cultism. Why should anyone but the writer be interested in such an act of adoration? Who is this U.G.? Once there was a person called U.G. He grew up like everyone else, went to school, practiced various spiritual disciplines, married, had children, went practically insane, and by some chance what has been called 'the Calamity' happened to him. And then that person ceased to be. The physical organism is still here. Some habits, conditioning, and memories are still present, without, however, any force behind them, for the person who previously tied them together is now gone. Once the person called U.G. ceased to be, Universal Energy manifested itself through U.G.'s organism. Somehow, in some inexplicable way, this Energy now seems to use all the peculiarities of whatever U.G. was in the past--his conditioning, idiosyncracies and patterns of living, indeed U.G.'s voice and his body--without

being bound by any of them, to relate to the world. U.G. now functions as a Being among beings. He is "a finely-tuned instrument", responding and relating to everyone around him and yet capable of changing with circumstances with great ease. Depending on whom he is dealing with at the moment, the Universal Energy that is now U.G. may appear assertive or yielding, ruthless or loving, and yet free from the divisions of the self. (U.G. calls this state of his the "natural state", whence the title of this book.) Although we see and deal with U.G. on the surface as a person like us, yet, inasmuch as we come to realize that he cannot be known through any pattern, we begin to suspect that there may be no person as U.G. at all. At any moment, in any context, we attribute certain characteristics to him, but we know that at the next turn we are liable to be proven wrong, that he may turn out to be the exact opposite, and that all our attributions are merely interpretations and projections based on our own predilictions, background, and self-centered interests. Yet U.G. is nothing outside of these attributions. We do not know what to do with him. When we are ready to throw out our own hang-ups, we begin to suspect that there is nothing there in U.G. except this Energy, and that this Energy is also in us, and everywhere. And we see that U.G., being that Energy, by constantly hitting and upsetting our interests, goals, aspirations, fears and whatnot, in other words, by striking at the dam of the self in us, is continually attempting to reestablish the unity of existence. Whether he succeeds or not is not his concern. And, of course, our suspicion that there may be no person called U.G. "there" brings into question the reality of our own person. Such an Energy calls forth itself in its dealings with us. No wonder we feel in U.G.'s presence that excitement, that sense of "unsettlement", that existential dread, that sense we may be "freaking out", and that surge of the feeling of utter love. Larry's poems reveal his response of personal devotion to U.G., his bhakti, as well as express his attempts-adequate or otherwise--to come to grips with U.G.'s extraordinary impact on his life. If sheer exuberance of Energy, that excitement, that pounding of the heart, and a feeling of melting into an abyss in response to U.G. , is bhakti, then Larry's poems express bhakti. How can Larry, or we, contain ourselves if an opening is made in us, thanks to our at least temporary readiness to let go of our guard, and an Energy bursts out? This Energy keeps on coming, blasting and expressing itself in spite of our doubts, fears, hopes, despairs, petty and selfish desires, our bickerings, and our clingings. Yet, inspite of these phenomenal outbursts, we mostly keep falling back on our own resources; we don't trust this Energy and we keep shutting it off through our calculations and fears. This Energy is constantly drawing us toward freedom--freedom from self-concern, freedom from all the turmoil of existence, freedom to dance in joy with life, freedom to live a carefree existence. U.G.'s example shows us how utterly easy it is to change with all that is changing around us. It is our concern for ourselves which makes us so dreadfully serious, as we drag our existence, heavily-laden on our backs, for what may seem like an eternity. When shall we be free if not now? And how best to be free except by letting go of every concern including the concern to be free? Larry has known U.G. since the mid-eighties and has been writing these poems ever since he met U.G. Larry's response to U.G. was immediate and continuous: he has written over two hundred poems, and the present work respresents a selection of them. These poems are simple and elegant. They vibrate with sincerity, feeling and vitality. Many of the poems depict a concrete aspect of U.G., say his cooking or shopping, his hands or his eyes, and go on to reveal how Larry is afftected by it, or rather how each of these aspects are an occasion of U.G.'s love. Some others describe Larry's own condition--which is ours too--of forlorness, and some of his

ecstactic joy. Larry understands what U.G. is after--that is, removing all that is false and sham in us (some of the poems describe this condition of ours) which we normally confuse with our true self. And Larry is bidding U.G. to "finish him off". How many of us across the world have been touched by U.G. may not be apparent to the general reader: we have felt and been moved by what we understand as his unconditional love, the great joy and laughter that surrounds him, his wrath and fury, his utter ruthlessness, the "good" feeling we experience when we are with him--the feeling that we are so special, the feeling of intimacy and understanding, as also by the utter simplicity of his living, and above all by the Presence of a vastly powerful and profoundly Creative Intelligence. (We know that U.G. himself would brush all this aside with one sweep of his hand as our own projections.) And Larry too has experienced U.G.'s unconditional love and the absolute peace that surrounds U.G.; he sings of the ways he is touched by U.G. and of his longing for U.G. This is where an answer could be found to the question of "Who would be interested in a collection of poems concerning one man?" Like the Heart Sutra, which reflects our emptiness to ourselves and invokes the great Emptiness that is in us all, Larry's poems open us to U.G. and the great Love and Joy that is in us, too. J.S.R.L. Narayana Moorty Seaside, California

Monday, July 04, 2005

U.G. (Magical, Mystical) Magical, mystical, mad Spiritual vacuum cleaner U.G. Male/Female Passive/Active Demonic/Chthonic U.G. Brain damaged? Holy saint with quick fluid motions So quick beyond thinking Outside of all categories Death-in-death

Life-in-death U.G. One of a kind None of a kind outside of all paths beyond all teachings more real than the Real Fire let loose on earth too beyond our waking to see. Hard to feel so much Energy and still be us upsetting all our notions shattering all our devotions demolishing all our potions I dissolve You dissolve We dissolve. Thank God for U.G.

Super Natural Cleaning Cooking Walking Talking always he is

one with what is. Examining minutely cardboard boxes at the Price Club. Contemplating Nothingness with Profundity. What a Joy to be with you U.G.-How our hearts open to your exquisite baffling unfathomable Presence. No end to this Energy-No end to this Joy.

Nuclear Generator

The Energy starts somewhere in this body works its way up spiraling through the head shoots into the heavens bounces off the sky.

The Finished Man He has given us Everything. His

own completion. We are the nothing he is always offering us to see ourselves as. We are as he is too. Two Nothingnesses when they meet produce a Great Nothing. So Freeing to meet

our own Not-ness. Thanks for the Nothingness Mr. U.G., Sir.

Spiritual Detergent If U.G. didn't exist we would have to invent him. We do it anyway. A figment of our Joyous Dread. We're always happy to be with U.G. because he takes it all away-wipes our slate clean. After U.G., there's nothing left to anguish over; No Anguisher left either. "I will pull the chair, the carpet, the very ground you are standing on." Not much left after U.G. finishes us.

"I am become death." That's why we flee in Joy to him each time to receive the Great Gift of self-release. When we're not, it's so easy to just be.

Angel Hair He slams the pasta package on the table rearranges the tiny noodles in delicate new configurations. Can we put our

scattered lives in those quick strong hands and let them sort us out set us free? Quickly in the silence we say yes. Anything whatever the scary cost we'll pay. Loose us from the

tangles forever.

Calm Disclosure Chiseled features erect upright posture U.G. centered in the allness floating our way through the multitude of our distractions reaching us with ineffable peace. How Good!

Karma Scooper U.G. with one swift flickering glance he scoops up all the uncertainty at the pit of our stomachs as if it were no gift at all.

The Hidden Answer Is Obvious

U.G.-still as a forest wild as a volcanic eruption unpredictable unknown a vast scary secret begging to be discovered revealing everything open to everything sharing everything still baffling obvious like our life.

Unbenumbed U.G. exists for us (if at all) within the spaes between our thoughts. Our thoughts bubble up on divided sides: "should I or shouldn't I" "will I or won't I" until they reach a peak of conflicted union

a tiny explosion the bubble bursts Ah, U.G. again.

Declenched Let go Drop it set it free let it be that ancient grimy self too long preoccupied with itself. Every thought another excuse for not freeing-time stops

now no thought left to think itself.

Phoning the Void "What did you say?" "Nothing." It was only the echo of our great uncertainty anxiously seeking to be filled or reassured or at least numbed

with hope instead the great silence booms back to us a Peace behond reckoning.

Time with U.G. How quickly we reach for what isn't yet there or has already come and gone.

U.G.'s peace takes away from us the grasping after a joy that left us long ago offers instead the intensity of this vast instant he realizes us in.

Sunken Treasure Extraordinary

clarity alertness Energy comes from "sinking" deeply into the abyss. The motot of self shuts off. All is quiet. Nothing left to think no thinker left either. End of the line at last till sputtering transfusion:

New Life and all begins again.

Driving Under the Influence Driving Mr. U.G. Foot to trembling pedal brake brake brake hope I don't blow it doing 20 in a 50 zone oops almost hit that one hope I make it going soooooo slow . . . with that eerie presence next to me E.T. the

Man from the moon. My shy heart racing faster than the car ah, U.G.

U.G. Attack "Have a candy" kindly sweet Uncle U.G. Just eat this Super Lemon Drop all will be well as we

die for the absolute last time we suck the bitter acid flavor as we dissolve into basic oblivion we got nothing but U.G. and U.G.'s got nothing but... us?

U.G. City

Out of two million people and Oh, so many possibilities for distraction there's really nowhere to be in this city but with U.G. in the little shuttered room at the top of the stairs leading to Never again.

So Many Followers Were led to follow

a path that took them straight out of the way into a No way. U.G. please show me the No Way. "No Way!" Every thought is a postponement. Every question already knows the answer. Every movement keeps us in bondage. Even

hopelessness is a vague hope of the mind. So stop here Now, already.

Man for the Kali Yuga "Truth is the only mantra for the Kali Yuga." When we meet Truth we stammer stutter fall apart

gasp groan Oh, No! we try so brave to act like we know what's what we're hip cool open undisguised finally revealing really ourselves really... until we meet Truth and Truth in one flickering glance sees through all

of our deceptions then moves on (through compassion?) to talk of other things.

Fatal Attraction We are drawn to U.G. Moths circling so carefully the flame knowing our destiny yet what else can we do

the sheer joy of this oblivion pulling us into itself.

Nothing to Do, Nowhere to Go Nothing is happening-No one to be just hanging out in the void with U.G. Every thought sets a

goal we automatically cancel "Why bother" yet still all this energy peace freedom. Nobody cares who we are here. What a release from ourselves our needing to be Somebody-yet not Nobody either-Just

here orbiting around a Quantum Leap.

Still Envelope When we are with U.G. we feel hermetically sealed in his calm peace No virtue to us this stillness which we would truly

love to earn but can't and have no way to get there almost we feel guilty for so much unearned peace... without even trying?

Selfless The Man with no image walks in

front of a plate glass window. Startled by the reflected stranger he jumps back then realizes: "It's me?"

U.G.'s Voice I've heard gravelly old Zen Masters' voices and satiny young Yogi's voices

severe Swamis' voices elderly dignified mystics' voices (with Angels in the background) I've heard serence Sikhs with steady voices phlegmy old cabalistic voices powerful Christian prophet voices but never never until U.G. has a

voice split my heart wide open.

Explanation We hang out with U.G. Ice packs for our sore hearts to freeze ease? the terror of our aloneness.

The Man Who Wasn't There No

linkage between the frames in his eyes Nothing hooks together no images So no self So no Love? How come there is so much Love?

U.G.'s Company We blurt out just

what we don't want to say. We got caught by the camera looking just like we don't want to look all our facades crumble in your thin smile you don't even have to shout

we melt anyway.

U.G.'s Eyes When you look at me do you see everything? In the midst of small talk happy gossip your darting eyes looking everywhere inside me. No place to hide from that penetrating

glance that shows me the parts I can't bring myself to see.

Word Bullet -- I Cuts your thought in two stops the flow of images breaks the connection leaves you dangling suspended

Nowhere between two thoughts.

U.G.'s Power Suit

Being Perfect Has Nothing to Do with It It's something different from all that. To come to the end of usefulness, therefore all the more dangerous. So different! How

can we imagine it? We can't.

Love With one tiny flicker of a glance Love sees us completely knows us through and through and Loves us anyway.

U.G.'s Ears Like the tears of Shiva How great are those all-encompassing ears Jivan-Mukta-Bringing us home to our not being here How grateful we are for those precious Big Beautiful ears-hearing our everythingness thank you No-one-there for being here for us in our nothingness trying-to-be-something How can we possibly escape the Love of those eyes the Joyous terror of those vast ears?

Cosmic Naxalite

Destroyer of dreams shatterer of illusions how your terrible words hurt our ears lay waste our tiny hopes for more postponements from being finished with the useless life how we long to hear something

of value to hang on to when all else fails instead you strip away the last shred of belief in our own self-fantasy how awful your words how terrible your silences you're right.

Shiva's Tomb Abandon hope as we enter the dimly-lit room awaiting the dissolving in the hot stuffy room we are butter in the frying pan we don't have a chance.

Formers

Former directors advisors teachers preachers leaders spiritual giants wowing them in the suburbs where are these spiritual athletes now? where are the Kudos the Kriyas where's the Shakti the Satori the bliss one tiny

U.G. smile all is lost time to wake up be ourselves ordinary schleps waiting on tables somewhere all the grandiosity taken away in one fell swoop one look from Those Eyes we're hooked how can

we ever escape into Nirvana again?

Transfixed The Eyes had us cornered. No way out. No escape. I thought I could get away by pretending that time mattered. But here

I am still those Eyes demanding "let it go!" "drop it!"

Everybody's Happy but Me Because I'm not there yet Because I need more time They had a head start I need more instruction My aura is leaking?

I need to go on a trip lose weight forgive my mother find the right spiritual teacher who 'understands' me tell my story have more guts get away from U.G. move in with him figure it

all out release it try harder quit trying Then Then? Then I'll be happy too like everybody else.

K-Mart U.G. drifting down the aisles alien transmuted detached in a sea of bustling

hungry anxious humanity U.G. desireless in a cathedral of desire "I never knew it would happen to me like this."

Driving Lesson U.G. trusts us as he sits absolutely still as

we weave in and out of harrowing California rush-hour traffic. He calmly reassures us: "you can have an accident even with an Enlightened man in your car." Then he sits so still like a

stone enveloped in an ocean of silence.

Awkward to the Max Around U.G. we feel uncomfortable inside our skin we're like stone monuments to ourselves so unnatural rigid tense unyielding our smiles hang

in space held on by wooden heads long tubes of empty heaviness protecting what? We see him so heavenly alive flowing spontaneous filled with quiet fire burning the edges of our hearts. What can

we do but relax?

Found Out "Don't think--" U.G. tells us with a straight look-"I just got off the turnip truck." How can we hide our vast ineptitude from those

searing eyes boring holes through our story "why spend your money learning the future I see it in your face. Besides you have none."

Koan I went to see U.G.

and came back disillusioned with my life. Now I can't go back to U.G. and who's left to go forward?

Beyond Measure U.G. really is an elusive fish-not tied to

a framework. How can we possibly catch him? No tradition can hold him-where's the reference point from which to trap him? Even Zen Masters are at least Zennists-Samadhists believe in Samadhi-mystics are

mystical. But where is U.G.? The closer we look the less he's there. Faster than speeding thought. How will we ever get a net over this one? Yet his freedom disturbs us not enough

for us to want what he hasn't.

On the Spot Too much to lose with U.G. we're too dignified to relax around him let our guards down besides what difference will it

make? Nothing is happening here anyway or is it? Why should we let go risk all for what? Supposing it all can change? How can we afford not to?

Secret Shredder

We bring our oh so carefullyguarded secrets to U.G. expecting him to condone them or condemn them instead he merely erases them with a soft smile.

"Sunyata" Like a

splinter in the finger U.G. unsettles our peace. He annoys our unhappiness. He bores holes in our non-arrival. "All you have are solutions. Why are you so fond of your answers? Dump them!" But without

my family, my friends, my spiritual path, my teachers, my convictions-What will be left?

How Could So Mischievous a Person Become Free? Saints we understand deep prayers we can accept angelic beings we can at least tolerate

but someone so obviously cynical and making fun of us all the time-he's the Realized One? Oy veh!

Beware U.G. might just track you down like a cruise missile. Call

you or show up at your doorstep then what? Then all the neatly assembled pieces of your life will shatter into Joy.

Disappearing Act There's nothing like U.G.'s Love. It dissolvs everything around

It. Then It dissolves Itself.

U.G.: Man with No Title We go to see U.G. because who else is there? Why go anywhere where we know what we will get when we get there? With

U.G. we only know it will be a surprise. We know we'll lose what we want anyway. It will be an anguish of Joy so how could we possibly not go. Plane, car, bus,

train what difference the speed time distance or way across an ocean or a street-Just so we get there, see U.G., have all our plans upset thrown asunder and feel that Joyous dread

in the pit of our stomach.

Not Just Inside His Skin He's everywhere. When we see a friend is it really him? Has U.G. suddenly slipped in again? When we call U.G. who's doing the

calling us or him? When someone comes to us from U.G. are they themselves or vehicles for him? It's said: great yogis can manifest three bodies. U.G. not limited to yoga how many are possible?

Bodies beyond number beyond measure. No bottom here. No end to this one. He goes on and on and on. How could he possibly stop? Who's that walking on the water? Blurred boundaries? When

U.G. eats are we still hungry? Who's that next to us right now breathing down our spiritual necks looking out at us from our third eye? Ah, U.G.

"Nirvakalpa" Heart U.G.'s

Love is an ocean quit learning life-saving techniques better we learn how to drown.

Desolate My friend U.G. is gone but not for good he'll be back and the heart

pounding joy will begin again. How can one person hit us so hard shatter our foundation at the root leave us gasping for breath but, Oh, more more more. Less than U.G. cannot satisfy

us.

U.G.-itis I've got a hole in my soul my skin is threatening to jump out of my body I no longer fit in anywhere I'm burning up with dissatisfaction my

heart aches quakes shakes the only cure is U.G. who says it has to get much worse before I'll be brave enough to let go my fear.

U.G. Is My Sponsor Hi I'm Larry

I'm a spiritual glutton "Hi Larry" I've been wandering on the path for a long long long time. I crave yogis swamis lamas and various assorted gurus. I flock to see the masters mystics seers and great sages

of the ages. My pulse throbs my head aches my knees buckle when in the presence of teachers of the unseen mysteries: New Agers New Thoughters No Thoughters relationists absolutists just so they're burning with fervor and

speak with the E.F. Hutton voice. U.G. breaks the spell of my Guru-itis grounds me in ordinary life a little gossip a joke a burst of unholy laughter pokes holes in my mystical longing. One soft word

from that quiet voice pierces my heart beyond any Zen Master. One glance from those darting eyes floods me with Love beyond any method any path. Keep coming back. It works.

U.G.'s Anger Cuts to the bone sears burns and cauterizes our wounded ego. We would like him to see who we're not instead he sees us dismissing the false self with a flick of a glance only

the Real Thing interests him. Too bad we're so far away from that.

U.G. Free Listening to the description of a free man-why listen anymore to just words I am

the freedom being explained. How can you explain me? If you can't see me there's something wrong with your eyes. You want my Freedom? This Freedom only exists where you leave off. Come to

the end of you and find me there.

The Investigation We went to see U.G. to find out for ourselves if he was really real. Instead we lost ourselves. Now where's

the investigator?

Male/Female U.G. so filled with stern assertive masculine high-powered energy blasts away at our foibles and our fables... yet now he's incredibly soft yielding absolutely feminine the love

flowing from him to us our mother lover sister Oh so gentle tender melting our hearts. How can we resist this two pronged attack loving us into wholeness?

Butcher's Heart U.G.

They say you have the heart of a butcher. Gladly would I lay myself before that axe: "Though He slay me, yet shall I love Him."

Open-Heart Surgery Love discovers beauty

that fear can never see. U.G. I am forever grateful that my heart was not closed when we met. I never knew that this kind of love was possible. No books no teachers prepared

me. Thank God my bitterness at life's dissappointments could melt in your quick shining eyes a love I could never calculate could touch me beyond recall.

Random Bliss U.G. comes into

our life like a thunderbolt fades out like a dream. Was it Real for you too? Did you touch the stars taste God in the white chocolate? Why out of all the billions were

we lucky enough to connect?

Happy Accident No one is there to put it all together. All the King's horses all the King's men can never put U.G. back together Again.

Unwobbling Pivot Who's that man walking across the water silencing the roar of mature chaos?

Love Enclosed in Skin Heart stirring power drowning in energy hurtling into space what manner of

Man is this-ghostly haunting our nerve endings. Fire igniting in our chests stripping the images all away.

Hurrican-Star-Love-Visit Were you there when U.G. came to town? Magic filled the

air. Numberless Jolts of Energy shocked us awake from our humdrum routine. How could we take another minute with him? Then he leaves. We are shattered. How could we not be with him? Maybe

we could follow-carry suitcases answer phones buy white chocolate (?) potato chips (?) anything we'll do anything not to leave that love. Then we almost but not quite forget, and suddenly he's back-and we drown again

in the Magic.

Prime Time The moment when the long wait is over. U.G. comes sailing across the desert through the mountains to here. Nothing can stop him now. Love my

parents never could give. Truth my teachers never heard of. Peace nowhere to be found in my meditations. Freedom beyond all imagining. U.G. my heart is yours. Don't stop long for gas.

Shook Up "I'm coming in November instead of the end of September." How can our hearts hold still that long? We want to fly immediately to Switzerland. Can we really last till November with

this awful ambiguity? We're neither here nor there inside our lives or out. We are swirling in the cosmic dust bowl of U.G. We want to be spun into the stars if only we

don't have to leave home.

B.U.G. Before U.G. we were simply complex human struggling caught in the strangle hold of thought now after U.G. we are dazed wandering dangling between two worlds

the bomb has been dropped we are the mutants. "Buddy, you ain't got a chance." All our so very important purposes plans destinations seem to have dissolved what to do now wandering through the

void eating white chocolate we did have a goal once you remember don't you? And we can't even take our own dissolution seriously stuck between not being and being our heart aches for you U.G.

come back quickly because the love is worth the dying.

Finish the Job, Quickly U.G. since you came into his life there has been no peace. All that was familiar comfortable has been

wrenched away. He is left dangling between who he was then and who he is not yet now. Your grace has stripped him of everything. But to all outer appearances he is just fine

the inner agony so deep and unrelenting only you can see it only you can heal it. He is ready to be taken out of the picture. Don't hesitate to fan the fire you

started. If the way is only through the flames, let the fire roar.

The Look The first look we got from U.G.-a swift glance so penetrating comprehensive seeing everything we

were are will be-in that instant all changed forever for us we can't go back to who we were before that fatal look. That look is still with us now and will be with

us throughout all our days the total searching look fo the universe calling us to destiny. "Buddy, you ain't got a chance." "The shortest rope and the tallest tree." "You're a goner." The look

is working its magic in each one of us right now releasing us from the heavy bonds of this earthly life. One look was all we needed to strike eternity in our hearts.

Viral U.G. Once he gets into your system there's no getting him out. "You're a goner." "Find the highest tree with the shortest rope." And we were doing so well, really making it

in the world just wanting a little pretend change nothing too traumatic. Now we can't get rid of him he's everywhere lurking behind our every though stripping us to the gills (and we thought

we had lost everything). Happy contagion so we go down kicking and screaming. Still, it's Love's own feast gnawing our entrails. Our bones may quake in fear crushed to the limits of our capacity

not to let go. Still the joyous horror of this moment we would not give up for forty worlds. How could we possibly go back even if we could and we can't-no penicillin ever made

can ever cure us of this strange affliction loving us free.

Trouble at the Center: For Goners Only U.G. you woke us from an uneasy sleep. Now we don't know what to do with our heads

in Albuquerque Monterey Mill Valley New York Chicago Bangalore Bombay and our hearts with you. If only you hadn't shown up when you did if only we had been a little less open we could still be

sleeping!

The U.G. Gang Bhakti-blasted wiped out stripped to the core-we come from all over to be shredded in the U.G.peopleshredder we who have given up the peace of a

secure premise stumble into U.G.'s midst wondering what's left to lose aching with the pain of our lost innocence till those eyes of love catch us on fire, again.

Truth Serum

After hanging out with U.G. how shallow every word coming from the sincerest of voices. No matter how fierce their protestations of innocence all we can hear is the hollow ring at the core. Once

having heard U.G. only Love will do.

Until He Came I used to want more out of life until U.G. came. Now I don't know what more means and I can't find my

life. It was here awhile ago. U.G. you've knocked my socks off. I feel slam-dunked. What happened to me? Did anything really happen? Why can't I find the lost thread of meaning? Everything is

just fine but my purpose has been blown. I can't find out why I'm doing anything anymore. And you won't help put it all together again-Thank God.

U.G. Fan Club Hail

fellow travelers down the nowherepath. You there brothers and sisters in emptiness waiting there for nothing to happen. You there in Bangalore California New York Bombay Amsterdam Hong Kong Sidney Albuquerque even what can we do,

we love him beyond all good sense. How can you tell if you are hooked by the U.G.virus? Have all your paths dried up are you going nowhere with dexterity saving your money

for a summer trip to Gstaad? Ready to leave it all at a moment's notice? What can we do, we love him. Has kindly Dr. Death got your number too? "Have a piece of white

chocolate--" with utter gentleness he sweeps clean our insides taking all the sweet false away with him smiling joking laughing peeking at us so softly from behind his sly oblivion. What can we do--

sisters and brothers of nowherelefttogowe love him.

Walking Dead Man Happy Birthday U.G. seventy-five years old and you're not even alive. When we see you we think we

see you but all we see is the memory of the time you were-like a star we see that's already millions of years away when we see it-Who you really are has already

melted into the pores of the universe a long time ago. We see you from millions of light-years ago a glorious comet flashing across our minds scorching our hearts with yearning for the Light

of your awakening. Happy Birthday JivanMukta. "Not JivanMukta!" Friend.

What If... What if we get the calamity and we don't know it. Everything will be different but we won't

know it. (We won't know if it's the same either.) Will we like it? How can we like it when we don't know we're in it? But there is some pay off, right? (We

just won't know we are getting it.) Still, calamity is better than no calamity, isn't it? Come on, U.G. tell us! (And he won't say a word.)

Almost Wanting Enlightenment U.G. we

love you we want to be with you we want to feel your peace your joy your incredible freedom we want what you have we just don't want what you are. Not that!-the

end of us! Waking death No more me! We like being with you just so we don't have to die. We're willing for others to die just not us. We're even willing to die

ourselves someday just not now. Now we like being with you so please don't kill us off at least not yet.

Splintered The moment you touched me I fell apart.

Now I pretend to live as if I'm still whole and functional I'm doing something real in the world. But underneath deep inside I'm lost. Only your love holds me together. A dream of

you is more real than all the people in my world. Since there's nothing left but you and you aren't here where am I? Whether you pick up the pieces or not, this Humpty

Dumpty will always love you.

U.G.'s Miracle The Zen Master's miracle is when he is hungry he eats thirsty he drinks U.G.'s miracle is that he is. He's outside of the

world so no ups or downs for him. He goes to the shopping mall instead of the great mountain. Where is not Heaven for him? He hangs out with losers like us. Who is

not holy to him? He eats canned tomatoes and drinks whole cream. What are preservatives and cholesterol to him? He prefers Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon or even Sedona: the vortices are small dots of

insignificance before his imperious presence. The Canyon "just a big hole." The whole earth itself with all its power pomp and circumstance is just a speck of dust in the eternity of U.G.'s flashing

eyes.

God's Hit Man The one mistake we can make is when we underestimate U.G. We think he is just a kindly blaster who only wants to remove our defects so that

we get on with making it big in the world. But he's not kidding buddy. He's not here to gently shrink our ego. He's come to kill us off. He's the cosmic assassin come

to take it all away. Don't even hope for a tiny drop of you to be left. So we meet U.G. when our time is up. U.G. is a vast furnace of Love in

which we are melting. We measure the walls, we note the time, we gauge our "progress", we confer on the heat as we sink into oblivion.

Ion Man Whatever you throw at

U.G. he evaporates throw your questions throw your fears doubts worries hopes your plans for the future throw your loves attachments he doesn't blink man he dissolves it all Oh well you finally throw

yourself.

On Fire with the Fire Of Fire Fire can't burn itself. Out of the smoldering ashes of his calamity comes U.G. Burning embers his eyes poke holes in our embarassment at being not someone else.

If only we were better more comfortable inside our skin we wouldn't mind (we think) U.G.'s fiery glance. We are so afraid that he will discover how little we are and we try so hard to

look like we have it together but the fire has already consumed us. We're only smoke forgetting to evaporate because we hope something more will come.

What a Friend We Have in U.G. Oh God if

U.G. doesn't come soon or at least call I think I'll die even if I don't die you call this living suspended between two worlds pretending to goals no longer mine too chicken to

drop everything and be swallowed into the void U.G. come dissolve the space between us once more until there is nothing left but you and then you dissolve.

Don't Gamble U.G.

says "We gamble with our lives, that's enough." When will we find the place of peace in this life? U.G. how long before our goose is cooked enough? Some of us die while waiting

to Die. "We'll all be enlightened two seconds before the end." Why can't we not mind the pain of not being There yet?

With U.G. "No one is insignificant no one

is special. Everyone is on the spot. Everything is up in the air." How could it be otherwise? U.G. brings us to ourselves. We can't not be aware when we are with him. Sleepwalking

normal reality is OK for a while but how we long to feel that sharp awakening in our bones when we are with him!

Useless Guy Of what good is U.G.? He

never pats our ego. He never says what we want to hear. He always interrupts our fantasy of getting better. What a guy! He never comforts our despair or commiserates with our misery. He

never turns a blind eye to our weakness. So of what use is this guy to us? Yet for one minute with him we would turn our backs on paradise.

Gucci Shoes

U.G. slam-dunks the old Gucci shoes in the garbage bin in Central Park. "But they cost $200." "Someone will find them." Imagine: an old wandering derelict shambles up to the garbage bin peers inside

grabs the shoes puts them on dances up into the sky.

Lord of the Cosmos U.G. walking through the Monterey Airport surveying his domain owner of the universe and everything in it-Loaning

it out to God for a while.

The Original Man A tiny tiny bit of unmolested Energy let loose inside wreaking Joyous havoc everywhere.

Swami Without a Robe The Universe is your Ashram

the planet your Stupa Humanity your adherents Truth your God Love your being Dissolving your teaching Nothing your self as you melt into it all.

Dilemma We live like ants

fulfilling purposes not our own. Then one day we meet U.G. and the myth of our inner clarity explodes. While we pick up the pieces which no longer fit together we wonder: how could

we not want to live with that Love so at cross-direction from everything we know?

U.G.: Unlikely Holy Man Not holy, Not a man? He looks like my grandmother sometimes. He was a rascal as

a child. He's still a rascal. He wants to steal our self-importance from us. All that he'll give in return is the Real. But what we want is to feel very good about our

illusions. U.G. doesn't play fair. After all, our illusions are more profound at a deeper level and have been certified by people-in-th-know. So why does U.G. dismiss them (and us too!) in one quick

glance?

U.G. Dance I wanted this time to tell you how glad I am to be with you but the words never came. I know when we speak heart to heart

there is no need of words. Sometimes I feel so totally with you that there are no others but us in the universe. Sometimes I feel so far away that even with you in

the same room sitting next to me the vast abyss between us will never let me enter. Sometimes my heart burns in the fire of your love. Sometimes it's all ashes and I can't

find you anywhere inside or out. Yet

Resting in Our Non-Arrival The purpose of the dance is the dance. We learn from U.G. by staying away from U.G. "They got what they came for." Now they go home. We all get what we come for. We all go home. What did we get? No more mind. So we don't mind no more.

Let that No mind be in you.

Word-Bullet -- II "I hold the words out maybe who knows you'll get hit by one or two" Maybe one word hitting just right worth a lifetime

of Nothing happening No matter how hard we try Maybe that word will sneak past all the guards Touch our hearts beyond reckoning Pull us into Life.

"Neti Neti" U.G. breaks

the contact with our pain but breaks the contact with our pleasure too. Where are we without pleasure without pain and not liberated either and every move we make is false leading us further

astray and then he leaves!

While Waiting for Calamity What to do until IT strikes: telemarketing waiting tables teaching preaching or malling or just hanging out white chocolate dribbling at the corners of the mouth a give away. We

can be spotted almost anywhere tapdancing in the void pretending our lives are working for the inevitable doom machine to push the button that has our name.

U.G. AND LARRY (Courtesy of Julie Thayer)

About the Author


Larry Morris has a Ph. D in English from the University of New Mexico, in the area of spiritual and mystical literature. For a while he taught at Eastern New Mexico University, University of New Mexico and Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute. He was ordained at the Brooks Divinity School in Denver and has been a minister, along with Susan Nettleton, at the Hillside Community Church in Albuquerque since 1982.

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THE DRAWINGS OF U.G. KRISHNAMURTI


DRAWINGS AND COMMENTARY COURTESY LOUIS BRAWLEY About Me Name: Peter Maverick View my complete profile

Previous Posts LOUIS BRAWLEY AND UG KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy of Ju... THE DRAWINGS WERE MADE BY UG STARTING IN JANUARY ... IN JANUARY OF 2005 UG RETURNED TO EUROPE AFTER TW... I THINK THIS IS THE SECOND DRAWING UG MADE IN BAV... UG WAS WATCHING ME ON THE COUCH DRAWING SPIRALS. ... AFTER HE HAD MADE A COUPLE OF DRAWINGS I ASKED UG... THIS WAS MAYBE UG'S THIRD DRAWING OF ME. ORIGINAL... THIS IS THE ONLY FULL LENGTH PORTRAIT UG DREW OF ... THIS IS ONE OF TWO DRAWINGS DONE BY UG ON A NAPKI... THIS IS THE DRAWING FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE NA...

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THE NATURAL STATE STOPPED IN OUR TRACKS

July 9, 2005

LOUIS BRAWLEY AND UG KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy of Julie Thayer) 1 comments

THE DRAWINGS WERE MADE BY UG STARTING IN JANUARY 2005 IN BAVENO, ITALY, THEN AGAIN IN SWITZERLAND ALSO IN JANUARY. FINALLY IN MARCH OF 2005, SOME DRAWINGS WERE DONE IN PALM SPRINGS. SOME OTHER DRAWINGS MAY HAVE BEEN LOST ALONG THE WAY BUT THIS IS UNLIKELY AS THE WORK IS CLOSELY MONITORED AND HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE! THIS WORK REPRESENTS A NEW PHASE OF ACTIVITY IN THE UNPREDICTABLE LIFE OF A GREAT UNKNOWABLE SAGE. 0 comments

IN JANUARY OF 2005 UG RETURNED TO EUROPE AFTER TWO AND A HALF MONTHS OF INTENSE TALKING IN THE LIVINGROOM OF SUGUNA AND CHANDRASEKHAR IN BANGALORE, INDIA. I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO FLY BACK WITH HIM AND CONTINUE ON TO BAVENO, ITALY WHERE HE STAYS ALONG THE LARGO MAJORE AT THE RESIDENCE DEI PIORI IN THE AZELIA SUITE. I WOULD SIT NEXT TO HIM ON THE COUCH AND TRY TO WRITE OR SKETCH IN A NOTEBOOK WHEN HE WASN'T HITTING, KICKING OR SPLASHING ME WITH HOT WATER. ONE DAY I ASKED HIM TO MAKE A DRAWING AND TO MY SURPRISE HE ASKED FOR A PIECE OF PAPER AND STARTED TO DRAW. HE SAID THAT WHEN HE WAS STUDYING BOTANY HE USED TO DRAW PLANTS. HE WONDERED OUT LOUD IF HE COULD STILL DRAW. HE HANDLES A PEN WITH STYLE AND THE LOOSE QUALITY OF HIS LINES IS REALLY NICE. 0 comments

I THINK THIS IS THE SECOND DRAWING UG MADE IN BAVENO. HE STARTED WITH THE FLOWER. SINCE I WAS SITTING NEXT TO HIM HE DECIDED TO DRAW ME. HE HANDLED THE PEN WITH A FLOURISH AND OFFHAND CONCENTRATION. WHY THE LINE ACROSS THE FOREHEAD? WHAT IS THE LINE DOWN THE CHEST? ODDLY IT'S ALMOST AS IF HE WAS DRAWING SOME ASPECT OF HIMSELF. 0 comments

UG WAS WATCHING ME ON THE COUCH DRAWING SPIRALS. HE KEPT ASKING WHAT I WAS DOING SO I WOULD ASK HIM TO MAKE ANOTHER DRAWING. I THINK HE LIKED TO DRAW ME BECAUSE OF MY BALD HEAD (WHICH HE ALSO LIKED TO HIT ALL THE TIME). HE WOULD MAKE FUN OF MY INABILITY TO MAKE MONEY AS AN ARTIST. IN THIS DRAWING HE MADE THE ARC FIRST, THEN THE FLOWER, THEN A PORTRAIT OF ME IN MY NOW GREEN STRIPED SHIRT WITH A THIRD EYE ON MY FOREHEAD. NICE TOUCH 0 comments

AFTER HE HAD MADE A COUPLE OF DRAWINGS I ASKED UG IF HE WOULD MAKE A SELF PORTRAIT. HE TOOK A FRESH PIECE OF PAPER AND THE NOTEBOOK, PROPPING THEM ON HIS KNEES HE WORKED AT THIS ONE PRETTY INTENSELY. WHEN HE FINISHED WE ALL TRIED TO FIGURE OUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE POSE. I SAW THE BOY ON THE BACK COVER OF THE BOOK HE USED TO DRAW ON AND REALIZED HE HAD COPIED THIS. HIS INVENTION WAS TO ADD THE LEGS WITH BIG SIDE POCKETS LIKE THE ONES ON MY CARGO PANTS. AT ANOTHER TIME HE SAID HE CANNOT DRAW HIMSELF BECAUSE HE HAS NO IMAGE OF THAT. "THE ONLY THING THAT EXISTS FOR ME IS THE OBJECT." WHILE HE WAS LOOKING AT THIS BOOK COVER, THAT WAS HIM. 0 comments

THIS WAS MAYBE UG'S THIRD DRAWING OF ME. ORIGINALLY THE FACE HAD NO EYEBROWS SO I ASKED HIM TO ADD THEM. A BLUE PEN WAS USED (UG HAD BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THE INK FLOW ON THE FOUNTAIN PEN SO WE GAVE HIM A BALL POINT TO PUT THE FINISHING TOUCHES ON). THE TITLE AND TEXT WERE ADDED BY ME AS DICTATED BY HIM: PRETENTIOUS BASTARD WHO HAS NO TALENT OF ANY KIND TO MAKE LOADS OF MONEY TO LIVE THE LIFE OF A REILLY. AND YET HE IS LIVING A FALSE LIFE GIVING THE IMPRESSION THAT HE IS HIDING LOADS OF MONEY STACKED IN A MATTRESS AND WHEN FOUND IT NEVER WAS THERE INSTEAD OF ADMITTING THE FACT HE HAS NO TALENT AS AN ARTIST TO MAKE MONEY OF ANY KIND. THE BRAGGING AND FALSE LIFE HE IS LIVING WILL HURT THE FEELINGS OF HIS BEST FRIENDS. AND THEY ARE SO HELPLESS TO HELP HIM OUT AND LIVE A SANE AND INTELLIGENT LIFE FROM NOW ON. 0 comments

THIS IS THE ONLY FULL LENGTH PORTRAIT UG DREW OF ME. IT WAS THE LAST DRAWING HE DID IN BAVENO. NOTE THE PROMINENT NAVEL. WE ALL WONDERED WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT. ALSO THERE ARE THOSE BIG SIDE POCKETS AGAIN. HE KEPT ON CHECKING THEM TO SEE IF MY WALLET WAS IN THERE... SADLY THOSE POCKETS ARE EMPTY. 0 comments

THIS IS ONE OF TWO DRAWINGS DONE BY UG ON A NAPKIN IN GRUYERE AT A COFFEE SHOP. HE WAS IN A FIESTY MOOD AND GRABBED A PEN FROM ME AND STARTED. THE QUESTION MARKS THAT FLOAT ABOVE THE FLOWER ARE A BEAUTIFUL TOUCH. WHAT IS THAT PERFUME? THIS IS THE REAL SELF PORTRAIT OF UG. THE DAY HE MADE THIS DRAWING WE HAD DRIVEN HIM TO THE DOOR OF THE CAFE SINCE IT WAS SO COLD OUTSIDE AND HE STILL LOOKED A LITTLE FRAIL FROM INDIA. HE SENSED OUR HOVERING CONCERN AND GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND WALKED ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE QUAINT LITTLE FEUDAL TOWN IN THE SNOW AND ICE TO LOOK AT THE EXCHANGE RATES. SO MUCH FOR OUR TRYING TO HELP, TO PROTECT HIM FROM THE ELEMENTS. THIS HE CANNOT STAND. 0 comments

THIS IS THE DRAWING FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE NAPKIN IN GRUYERE. HE SAID IT IS A PICTURE OF ME AND MY "SUPPOSED GIRLFRIEND." HE HAD WARMED UP DRAWING THE FLOWER. WHILE HE WAS DRAWING, KARA AND LISA TOOK A COUPLE OF PHOTOGRAPHS. HE REALLY LOOKED LIKE HE WAS HAVING FUN. HE GRINNED WIDELY WHEN WE NOTICED HER "BOUNCING BREASTS." MUCH LATER I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING BETWEEN THE TWO CHARACTERS. I ASKED HIM AND HE SAID "SHE IS HITTING HIM." 0 comments

THIS IS A DRAWING THAT STARTED OUT AS A SELF PORTRAIT (SEE THE LINE ON THE RIGHT). UG STOPPED AND SAID "I CANNOT DRAW MYSTELF. I HAVE NO IMAGE OF THAT." INSTEAD HE DREW THE FLOWER QUICKLY IN BIG SWEEPING LINES. IT REALLY FLOATS. IT WAS DONE IN PALM SPRINGS AT DAVID AND MARIA'S HOUSE. 0 comments

A PICASSO-LIKE FIGURE, AGAIN, SUPPOSED TO BE OF ME. I LIKE THE MULTIPLE ARMS. IT WAS DONE PRETTY QUICKLY. ALSO FROM PALM SPRINGS. 0 comments

THIS IS ANOTHER DRAWING UG MADE IN PALM SPRINGS IN MARCH 2005. HE WAS VISITING THE MALLADI FAMILY WITH THE TWO NEWBORN BABIES AND SANDHYA THE GRANDDAUGHTER. SANDHYA HAD BEEN DRAWING WITH A SPARKLE-GLUE PEN TOY. THERE WAS NO PAPER LEFT AND UG WANTED TO DRAW SO WE GRABBED A PAPER TOWEL FOR HIM. 0 comments

I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE THIS WAS DONE BUT I'LL BET IT WAS SOAKED BY SOME VERY HOT WATER THROWN AT ME BY UG. 0 comments

UG KRISHNAMURTI (Courtesy of Julie Thayer) 0 comments

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CONVERSATIONS WITH U.G. KRISHNAMURTI


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TALK POEMS DRAWINGS THE NATURAL STATE STOPPED IN OUR TRACKS

Thursday, July 07, 2005

U.G. Krishnamurti (Courtesy Julie Thayer)

MAHESH AND U.G. (Courtesy of Julie Thayer)

*Behind the changes in nature there seems to be some kind of plan or purpose, don't you think? I don't see any plan or scheme there at all! There is a process--I wouldn't necessarily call it evolution--but when it slows down then a revolution takes place. Nature tries to put something together and start all over again, just for the sake of creating. This is the only true creativity. Nature uses no models or precedents and so has nothing to do with art per se. *Do you mean to say there is nothing to the creativity of artists, poets, musicians and sculptors?

Why do you want to place art on a higher level than craft? If there is no market for an artist's creation, he will be out of business. It is the market that is responsible for all these so-called artistic beliefs. An artist is a craftsman like any other craftsman. He uses that tool to express himself. All human creation is born out of sensuality. I have nothing against sensuality. All art is a pleasure movement. Even that (the pleasure) has to be cultivated by you. Otherwise you have no way of appreciating the beauty and art that artists are talking about. If you question their creation, they feel superior, thinking that you don't have taste. Then they want you to go to a school to learn how to appreciate their art. If you don't enjoy a poem written by a socalled great poet, they forcibly educate you to appreciated poetry. That is all that they are doing in the educational institutions. They teach us how to appreciate beauty, how to appreciate music, how to appreciate painting and so on. Meanwhile they make a living off you. Artists find it comforting to think that they are creative: 'creative art', 'creative ideas', 'creative politics'. It's nonsense. There is nothing really creative in them in the sense of their doing anything original, new or free. Artists pick something here and something there, put it together and think they have created something marvelous. They are all imitating something that is already there. Imitation and style are the only 'creativity' we have. Each of us has our own style according to the school we attended, the language we were taught, the books we have read, the examinations we have taken. And within that framework again we have our own style. Perfecting style and technique is all that operates there. You will be surprised that one of these days computers will paint and create music much better than all the painters and musicians that the world has produced so far. It may not happen in our lifetime but it will happen. You are no different from a computer. We are not ready to accept that because we are made to believe that we are not just machines--that there is something more to us. You have to come to terms with this and accept that we are machines. The human intellect that we

have developed through education, through all kinds of techniques is no match for nature. They (creative activities) assume importance because they have been recognized as expressions of spiritual, artistic and intellectual values. The drive for self-expression is born out of neurosis. This applies to the spiritual teachers of mankind too. There is no such thing as a direct sense-experience. All forms of art are nothing but an expression of sensuality. * Is there something more to self-expression U.G.? Having had a tremendous experience of some kind you want to relate it to somebody or maybe just replay it to yourself? Is there anything to this overriding need to express oneself? There is no such thing as my experience and your experience. When you experience something you think it is something extraordinary and naturally the need arises to share that experience with somebody else. When you and I go out for a walk you naturally look at something that you have not looked at before and it is something extraordinary for you. And when you say to yourself this is something extraordinary that you have not seen before there is a need for you--which is a part of your self fulfillment--to share that pleasure with somebody else. Whatever you experience has already been experienced by someone else. Your telling yourself, 'Ah! I am in a blissful state,' means that someone else before you has experienced that and has passed it on to you. Whatever may be the nature of the medium through which you experience, it is a second-hand, third-hand, and lasthand experience. It is not yours. There is no such thing as your own experience. Such experiences, however extraordinary, aren't worth anything. * We want to know what truth is. We want to know what enlightenment is. You already know it. Don't tell me that you don't. There is no such thing as

truth at all. * So, does all this (U.G.'s search and his 'calamity') mean that there was a certain programming? If there was, you have to rule out all such things as mutation and radical transformation. I ruled those out because I didn't find anything there to be transformed. There was no question of mutation of mind, radical or otherwise. It is all hogwash. But it is difficult for you to throw all this stuff out of your system. You can also deny it and brush it aside, but this, 'Maybe there is something to it' lasts for a long time. When once you stumble into a situation that you can call 'courage' you can throw the entire past out of yourself. I don't know how this has happened. What has happened is something which cannot but be called an act of courage because everything, not only this or that particular teacher you had been involved with but everything that every man, every person, thought, felt and experienced before you, is completely flushed out of your system. What you are left with is the simple thing--the body with extraordinary intelligence of its own. When I went to school I studied everything, including Advaita Vedanta. Vedanta was my special subject for my Masters in Philosophy. Very early during my studies I arrived at the conclusion that there is no such thing as a mind at all. There was a well-known professor of Psychology at the University of Madras--Dr Bose. Just a month before my final examinations, I went to him and asked him the question, 'We have studied all these six schools of Psychology, this, that, and the other, exhaustively, but I don't see in all this a place for the "mind" at all.' (At that time I used to say that 'Freud is the stupendous fraud of the twentieth century.' The fact that he has lasted for a hundred years does not mean anything.) So my problem was that I did not see any mind. So I asked my professor, 'Is there a mind?' The only honest fellow that I have met in my life was not any of those holy men but that

professor. He said that if I wanted my Master's degree I should not ask such uncomfortable questions. He said, 'You will be in trouble. If you want your postgraduate degree, repeat what you have memorized and you will get a degree. If you don't want it, you explore the subject on your own.' So I said, 'Good-bye.' I did not take my examination. I was lucky because at that time I had a lot of money and I told him that I had four times the income of what he had as professor of Psychology. I told him that I could survive with all this money and walked out of the whole business. But my suspicion (about the mind) persisted for a long time. You see, you cannot be free from all this so easily. You get a feeling 'Maybe the chap (whoever is talking about the mind) knows what he is talking about. He must have something.' Looking back, the whole thing was a stupendous hoax. I told J. Krishnamurti that he was a stupendous hoax of the twentieth century along with Freud. I told him, 'You see, you have not freed yourself from this whole idea of messiahs and Theosophy.' He could not emerge clean from the whole thing. If you think that he is the greatest teacher of the twentieth century, all right, go ahead. You are not going to have all these transformations, radical or otherwise. Not because I know your future but because there is nothing there to be transformed, really nothing. If you think there is and think that plums will fall into your stretched palm, good luck to you. What is the point of my telling you this? There is no such thing as enlightenment. So whether Rajneesh was enlightened or someone else is enlightened is irrelevant. It is you who assumes that somebody is, whoever he is. Good luck to you! Somebody coming and telling me, 'That I am', is a big joke. There is nothing to this whole nonsense. I have heard that there is a course in the United States: if you want enlightenment in twenty-four hours they charge you one thousand dollars and if you want it within a week, five hundred dollars and so on. *So you say that the mind doesn't exist. What does exist?

This (pointing to himself) is just a computer. * What difference does it make whether you call it a computer or the mind? If you want to use that word, it is fine with me. The mind is (not that I am giving a new definition) the totality of man's experiences, thoughts and feelings. There is no such thing as your mind or my mind. I have no objection if you want to call that totality of man's thoughts, feelings and experiences by the name 'mind'. But how they are transmitted to us from generation to generation is the question. Is it through the medium of knowledge or is there any other way, say for example, through the genes? We don't have the answers yet. Then we come to the idea of memory. What is man? Man is memory. What is that memory? Is it something more than just to remember, to recall a specific thing at a specific time? To all this we have to have some more answers. How do the neurons operate in the brain? Is it all in one area? The other day I was talking to a neurosurgeon, a very young and bright fellow. He said that memory, or rather the neurons containing memory, are not in one area. The eye, the ear, the nose, all the five sensory organs in your body have a different sort of memory. But they don't yet know for sure. So we have to get more answers. As I see it, everything is genetically controlled. That means you don't have any freedom of action. This is not what we have been taught in India--the fatalistic philosophy. When you say that there is no freedom of action, it means that you have no way of acting except through the help of the knowledge that is passed on to you. It is in that sense, I said, no action is possible without thought. Any action that is born out of thought which belongs to the totality of knowledge is a protective mechanism. It is protecting itself. It is a self-perpetuating mechanism. You are using it all the time. Every time you experience anything through the help of that knowledge, the knowledge is further strengthened and fortified. So every time you experience greed and

condemn it you are adding to its momentum. You are not dealing with the actual greed, anger or desire. You are only interested in using them. Take, for example, desirelessness. You want to be free from desire. But you are not dealing with desire--only with the idea of 'how to be free from desire.' You are not dealing with something that is existing there. Whatever is there or happening there cannot be false. You may not like it and may condemn it because it doesn't fit into your social framework. The actions born out of desire may not fall into the society's framework which accepts certain actions and rejects others as antisocial. But you are concerned only about values. You are concerned about grappling with or fighting that which you condemn. Such a concern is born out of culture, society, norms or whatever. The norms are false and they are falsifying you.... *Say there are two cities and a river in the middle. These two cities have to communicate and we have to build a bridge. Yes, you already have the technical know-how. *No. We don't. Someone else can give it to you. *Suppose no one gives it? Then, you don't bother about that. We don't discuss hypothetical situations. Who the original man was, how he got this idea--whether it was by trial and error--we don't bother about all that. The demand to cross over to the other side because there is a rich land... there is a kind of drive--the drive for survival. That drive is an extension of this survival mechanism that already exists in nature. You don't have to teach dogs, cats, pigs and other wild animals how to search for food, how to eat and survive. All our activity is nothing but an extension of the same survival mechanism. But in this process we have succeeded in sharpening that instrument. With the

help of that instrument we are able to create everything that we are so proud of--progress, this, that and the other. You may be able to put this record player together and take it apart. This kind of knowledge can be transmitted from one person to another. But the problems which we are interested in solving--the day-to-day problems, living with someone else or living in this world--are the living problems. They are different every time. We would like to treat them on a par with mechanical problems and use that knowledge and experience (coming from dealing with the mechanical problems) to resolve problems of living. But it doesn't seem to work that way. We cannot pass these experiences on to others. It doesn't help. Your own experiences don't always help you. You tell yourself, for example, 'If I had this experience ten years ago, my life would have been different.' But ten years hence you will be telling yourself exactly the same thing, 'If I had this experience ten years ago....' But we are now at this point and your past experiences cannot help you to resolve your problems. The learning concerning mechanical problems is useful only in that area and not in any other. But in the area of life we don't learn anything. We simply impose our mechanical knowledge on the coming generations and destroy the possibility of their dealing with their problems in their own way. The other day I met somebody, a leader. He had come straight from some university. He said, 'We have to help the coming generation.' He said that the future belongs to the young generation. I told him, 'What the hell are you talking about? Why do you want them to prepare to face their future? We have made a mess of this world so far and you want to pass this mess on to the younger generation. Leave them alone. If they make a mess of the whole thing, they will pay the price. Why is it your problem today? They are more intelligent than us.' Our children are more intelligent than us. First of all, we are not ready to face that situation. So we force them into this mold. But it doesn't help them. The living organism and thought are two different things. Thought cannot conceive of the possibility of anything happening outside the field of time.

I don't want to discuss time in a metaphysical sense. By time I mean yesterday, tomorrow and the day after. The instrument which has produced tremendous results in this area is unable to solve problems in the area of living. We use this instrument to achieve material results. We also apply the same thing to achieve our so-called spiritual goals. It works here but it doesn't work there. Whether it is materialistic goals or spiritual goals, the instrument we are using is matter. Therefore, the so-called spiritual goals are also materialistic in their value and in their results. I don't see any difference between the two. I haven't found any spirit there. The whole structure which we have built on the foundation of the assumed 'self' or 'spirit', therefore, collapses. What is mind? You can give a hundred definitions. It is just a simple mechanical functioning. The body is responding to stimuli. It is only a stimulus-responding mechanism. It does not know of any other action. But through the translation of stimulus in terms of human values, we have destroyed the sensitivity of the living organism. You may talk of the sensitivity of the mind and the sensitivity of your feeling towards your fellow beings. But it doesn't mean a thing. *But there must be some sensitivity without a stimulus. What I am talking about is the sensitivity of sensory perceptions. But what you are concerned with is sensuality. They are different things. The sensory activity of the living organism is all that exists. Culture has superimposed on it something else which is always in the field of sensuality. Whether it is a spiritual experience or any other experience, it is in the field of pleasure. So the demand for permanence is really the problem. The moment a sensation is translated as a pleasurable one there is already a problem. The translation is possible only through the help of knowledge. But the body rejects both pain and pleasure for the simple reason that any sensation that lasts longer than its natural duration is destroying the sensitivity of the nervous system. But we are interested only in the sensual aspect of the

sensory activity. *But we have to understand. What is there to understand? To understand anything we have to use the same instrument that is used to understand this mechanical computer that is there before me. Its workings can be understood through repeatedly trying to learn or operate it. You try again and again. If it doesn't work, there is someone who can tell you how to operate it, take it apart and put it together. You yourself will learn through a repetitive process--how to change this, improve this, modify this and so on and so forth. This instrument (thought) which we have been using to understand has not helped us to understand anything except that every time we are using it we are sharpening it. Someone asked me, 'What is Philosophy? How does it help me in my day-to-day existence?' It doesn't help you in any way except that it sharpens the intellect. It doesn't in any way help you to understand life. If that (thought) is not the instrument and if there is no other instrument then is there anything to understand? 'Intuitive perception' or 'intuitive understanding' is only a product of the same instrument. The understanding that there is nothing to understand, nothing to get, dawned on me. I was seriously wanting to understand. Otherwise I would not waste forty-nine years of my life. But when once this understanding that there is nothing to understand somehow dawned on me, the very demand to be free from anything, even from the physical demands, was not there any more. But how this happened to me I really wouldn't know. So there is no way I can share this with you because it is not in the area of experiencing things. * How do you place those people who don't have this burden of trying to understand life--those who are just existing in the world? Whether you are interested in moksha, liberation, freedom, transformation, you name it, or you are interested in happiness without one moment of

unhappiness, pleasure without pain, it's the same thing. Whether one is here in India or in Russia or in America or anywhere, what people want is to have one (happiness) without the other (unhappiness). But there is no way you can have one without the other. This demand is not in the interest of the survival of this living organism. There is an extraordinarily alert quality to it (the organism). The body is rejecting all sensations. Sensations have a limited life; beyond a particular duration the body cannot take them. It is either throwing them out or absorbing them. Otherwise they destroy the body. The eyes are interested in seeing things but not as beauty; the ears hear things but not as music. The body does not reject a noise because it is the barking of a dog or the braying of an ass. It just responds to the sound. If you call it a response to the sound, then we get into trouble. So you don't even know that it is a sound. Anything that is harsh, anything that would destroy the sensitivity of the nervous system, the body cuts out. It is like a thermostat. To some extent the body has a way of saving itself from heat, cold or anything that is inimical to it. It takes care of itself for a short period and then thought helps you to take the next step to cover yourself or to move yourself away from the dangerous situation you find yourself in. You will naturally move away from the cement mixer that is making a loud noise and is destroying the sensitivity of your nervous system. The fear that you would be destroyed because the sound is bad or that you will become a nervous wreck and so on and so forth, is part of your paranoia. * Since there are no questions, there is no question of answers. Where then are the questions? All the questions are born out of the answers. But nobody wants the answers. The end of the question is the end of the answer. The end of the solution is the end of the problem. We are only dealing with solutions and not with the problems. Actually there are no problems, there are only solutions. But we don't even have the guts to say that they don't work. Even if you have discovered that

they don't work, sentimentality comes into the picture. The feeling, 'That man in whom I have placed my confidence and belief cannot con himself and con everyone else,' comes in the way of throwing the whole thing out of the window, down the drain. The solutions are still a problem. Actually there is no problem there. The only problem is in discovering the inadequacy or uselessness of all the solutions that have been offered to us. The questions naturally are born out of the assumptions and answers that we have taken for granted as real answers. But we really don't want any answers to the questions because an answer to the questions is the end of the answers. If one answer ends, all the other answers also go. You don't have to deal with ten different answers. You deal with one question and that puts an end to the answer. Not that you get an answer. But there will no questions. Yet I have to accept the reality of the world as it is imposed on me for purposes of functioning sanely. *When I visited a place where people who are mentally different are kept.... Mentally different or sick or ill or.... * I would prefer to call them mentally different because they think we are mentally different and vice versa. That is true. * The dividing line is very thin. They may be looking at us as victims. Really we don't know who is different. But biologically both of us are functioning.... ...exactly the same way.... * ... the same way. What could be the basis for calling them mentally different? Because we have established the so-called normal man.

* That's what I am hinting at. Some people who are in the All India Institute of Mental Health at Bangalore visited me. One of them is a top neurosurgeon. I asked him the same question, 'Who is normal? Who is sane and who is insane?' He said, 'Statistically speaking, we are sane.' That was quite satisfactory to me. And then I asked him, 'Why are you putting all of them there and treating them? How much help do you give them?' He said, 'Not even two per cent of them are helped. We send them back to their homes but they keep returning.' 'Then why are you running this show?' I asked him. He said, 'The government pays the money and the families don't want to keep those people in their homes.' So, we now move on from there to the basic question, 'Who is sane and who is insane?' Sometimes such people come to see me. Even people who are hardcore cases come to me. But the line of demarcation between them and me is very thin. The difference seems to be that they have given up, whereas I am not in conflict with society. I take it. That's all the difference. There is nothing that prevents me from fitting into the framework of society. I am not in conflict with society. When once you are--I don't like to use the word, freed from, or are not trapped in--this duality of right and wrong, good and bad, you can never do anything bad. As long as you are caught up in wanting to do only good, you will always do bad. Because the 'good' you seek is only in the future. You will be good some other time and until then you remain a bad person. So, the so-called insane have given up and we are doing them the greatest harm and disservice by pushing them to fit themselves into this framework of ours which is rotten. I don't just say it is rotten but it is. I don't fight society. I am not even interested in changing it. The demand to bring about a change in myself isn't there any more. So, the demand to change this framework or the world at large isn't there. It is not that I am

indifferent to the suffering man. I suffer with the suffering man and am happy with the happy man. People seem to get pleasure out of others' suffering. Why don't they get the same pleasure when they see a rich man throwing his weight around? They are the same. This you call pleasure and that you call jealousy or envy. But I don't see any difference between the two. I see suffering. Individually, there isn't anything that I can do. And at the same time I don't want to use this (suffering) for my selfaggrandizement, my self-fulfillment. The problem is there and we are individually responsible for it. Yet we don't want to accept the responsibility for creating the problems. The problems are not created by nature. It is we who have created the problems. There is plenty, there is bounty in nature; but we take away what rightfully belongs to everybody and then say that we should give charity. That's too absurd! The practice of charity, started by the religious man, is what refuses to deal with the problems squarely. I may give something to a poor man because he is suffering. But unless I have something more than he has, there is no way I can help. What do I do if I don't have the means to help him? What do I do in a situation where I am totally helpless? That helplessness only makes me sit with him and cry. * U.G., you say that nature is not concerned with creating a perfect being but a perfect species. What do you mean by that? We have for centuries been made to believe that the end product of human evolution, if there is one, is the creation of perfect beings modeled after the great spiritual teachers of mankind and their behavior patterns. * By great spiritual teachers you mean people like Jesus and the Buddha? All of them. All the great teachers--the occidental and the oriental. That is the basic problem we are confronted with. I don't think I have any special insight into the laws of nature. But if there is any such thing as an end

product of human evolution (I don't know if there is such a thing as evolution but we take for granted that there is) what nature is trying to produce is not a perfect being. * But scientific research has revealed that there is such a thing as evolution. Even today some universities don't allow their students to study Darwin's The Origin of Species. His statements have been proved to be wrong to some extent because he said that acquired characteristics cannot be transmitted to the succeeding generations. But every time they (the scientists) discover something new they change their theories. Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not perfect beings. We are not ready to accept that. What nature has created in the form of human species is something extraordinary. It is an unparalleled creation. But culture is concerned with fitting the actions of all human beings into a common mold in order to maintain the status quo--its value system. That is where the real conflict is. This (referring to himself) is something which cannot be fitted into that value system. * I began with this whole question of nature because I find in your statements a profound sense of nature, a profound sense of the absolute and primitive reality of life itself, which seems to me an extraordinarily positive force and a force for the good. The fundamental mistake that humanity made somewhere along the line, was to experience this separateness from the totality of life. At that time there occurred in man, this self-consciousness which separated him from the life around. He was so isolated that it frightened him. The demand to be part of the totality of life around him created this tremendous demand for the ultimate. He thought that the spiritual goals of God, truth, or reality, would help him to become part of the 'whole' again. But the very attempt

on his part to become one with or become integrated with the totality of life has kept him only more separate. Isolated functioning is not part of nature. This isolation has created a demand for finding out ways and means of becoming a part of nature. But thought in its very nature can only create problems and cannot help us solve them. We don't seem to realize that it is thought that is separating us from the totality of things. The belief that this is the one that can help us to keep in tune with totality is not going to materialize. So, it has come up with all kinds of ingenuous, if i may use that word, ideas of insight and intuition. * Where then do we go from here? I am not going to ask you what the purpose of life is because obviously, as you were saying, that is really not a relevant question. No. It is a relevant question but is born out of the assumption that we know about life. Nobody knows anything about life. We have only concepts, ideations and mentations about life. Even the scientists who are trying to understand life and its origin come up only with theories and definitions of life. You may not agree with me but all thought, all thinking is dead. Thinking is born out of dead ideas. Thought or the thinking mechanism, trying to touch life, experience it, capture and give expression to it are impossible tasks. What we are concerned about is living. Living is our relationship with our fellow beings, with the life around. When we have everything that we can reasonably ask for, all the material comforts that you have in the West, the question naturally arises: 'Is that all?' The moment we pose that question to ourselves, we have created a problem. If that's all there is, what then is the next step to take? We do not see any meaning in our life and so we pose this question to ourselves and throw this question at all those who we think have answers. What is the meaning of life? What is the purpose of life? It may have its own meaning; it may have its own purpose. By understanding the meaning

of life and the purpose of life we are not going to improve, change, modify, or alter our behavior patterns in any way. But there is a hope that by understanding the meaning of life, we can bring about a change. There may not be any meaning of life. If it has a meaning, it is already in operation there. Wanting to understand the meaning of life seems to be a futile attempt on our part. We go on asking these questions. Once a very old gentleman, ninety-five years old, who was considered to be a great spiritual man and who taught the great scriptures to his followers, came to see me. He asked me two questions: 'What is the meaning of life? I have written hundreds of books telling people all about the meaning and purpose of life, quoting the scriptures and interpreting them. I haven't understood the meaning of life. You are the one who can give me an answer.' I told him, 'Look, you are ninety-five years old and you haven't understood the meaning of life. When are you going to understand the meaning of life? There may not be any meaning to life at all.' The next question he asked me was, 'I have lived ninety-five years and I am going to die one of these days. I want to know what will happen after my death.' I said, 'You may not live long enough to know anything about death. You have to die now. Are you ready to die?' As long as you are asking the questions, 'What is death?' or 'What is there after death?' you are already dead. These are all dead questions. A living man would never ask those questions. *Let me ask another question which is not intellectual. What should we do? (Laughs) For centuries we have been told what to do. Why are we asking the same question, 'What to do?' What to do in relation to what? What I am emphasizing is that the demand to bring about a change in ourselves is the cause of our suffering. I may say that there is nothing to be changed. But the revolutionary teachers come and tell us that there is something there in which you have to bring about a radical revolution. Then we assume there is such a thing as soul, spirit, or the 'I'. What I assert all the time is that I

haven't found anything like the self or soul there. This question haunted me all my life and suddenly it hit me: 'There is no self to realize. What the hell have I been doing all this time?' You see, that hits you like lightning. Once that hits you, the whole mechanism of the body that is controlled by this thought (of the 'I') is shattered. What is left is the tremendous living organism with an intelligence of its own. What you are left with is the pulse, the beat and the throb of life. 'There must be something more and we have to do something to become part of the whole thing.' Such demands have arisen because of our assumption that we have been created for a grander purpose than that for which others species on this planet have been created. That's the fundamental mistake we have made. Culture is responsible for our assuming this. We thus come to believe that the whole of creation is for the benefit of man. The demand to use nature for our purposes has created all the ecological problems. It is not such an easy thing for us to deal with these problems. Again, you may say that I am a pessimist. The point is, we have probably arrived at a place where there is no going back. What is the fate of mankind and what is one to do? Anything that is born out of thought is destructive in its nature. That is why I say very often in my conversations and interviews that thought, in its birth, in its nature, in its expression and in its action, is fascist. Thought is interested in protecting itself and is always creating frontiers around itself. And it wants to protect the frontiers. That is why we create frontiers around us: our families, our nations and then this planet. * Why do you speak? I pose the question to you. Why do I speak? (Laughter) Am I speaking? You know, it may sound very funny to you. I have nothing to say and what I am saying is not born out of my thinking. You may not accept this. But it is not a logically ascertained premise that I am putting across. It may sound very funny to you and you

have put me in a very precarious position by asking me why I am talking. Am I talking? Really I am not, you see. There is nobody who is talking here. I use this simile of a ventriloquist. He is actually carrying on both sides of the dialogue but we attribute one side of it to the dummy in front of him. In exactly the same way, all your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not. And we are not ready to accept the fact that all the questions are born out of the answers. If the questions go, the answers we take for granted also go with them. But we are not ready to throw the answers away because sentiment comes into the picture. The tremendous investment we have made and the faith we have in the teachers, are also at stake. Therefore, we are not ready to brush aside the answers. Actually we do not want answers for our questions. The assumption that the questions are different from the questioner is also false. If the answer goes, the questioner also goes. The questioner is nothing but the answers. That is really the problem. We are not ready to accept this answer because it will put an end to the answers which we have accepted for ages as the real answers. * We have always been told that mankind has a certain purpose in creation. But ever since I have met you, I have begun to wonder whether this is true. You are the one to answer that question. We don't give a tinker's damn, to use that harsh expression, about what others have said about it. How does it matter whether what they have said is true or not. It is up to you to find out. I can say that there is no purpose and if there is any purpose, we have no way of knowing it. We only repeat what we have been told. We are made to believe that there is a purpose and that belief is what is responsible for the tragedy of mankind today. We have also been made to believe that we are created for a grander purpose, for a nobler purpose than all the species on this planet. This is not all. We are also told that all creation was created for the benefit of man. That's why we have created all these problems--

ecological problems and problems of pollution. Now we are almost at a point where we are going to blow ourselves up. The planet is not in danger; we are in danger. You can pollute this planet and do all kinds of things; the planet can absorb everything--even these human bodies. If we are wiped out, nature knows what to do with the human bodies. It recycles them to maintain the energy level in the universe. That's all it is interested in. So, we are no more purposeful or meaningful than any other thing on this planet. We are not created for any grander purpose than the ants that are there or the flies that are hovering around us or the mosquitoes that are sucking our blood. I can say all this, but what do you have to say? That is more important than what I have to say. We really don't know. We have no way of knowing anything. Even the scientists--they can say what they like. How does it interest us? It does not really matter as to how this whole universe was created--whether God created it or the whole thing came out of some dust and pebbles or hydrogen atoms somewhere. It is for the scientists to talk about all this and every now and then come up with new theories. They will be amply rewarded and given Nobel Prizes. But the theories don't help us to understand anything. So I really don't know if there is any purpose. I don't think that there is any. I do not see any meaning or purpose in life. A living thing, a living organism is not interested in asking the question, 'What is the purpose of life? What is the meaning of life?' *Does it matter if you create your own purpose? We are not satisfied with the daily grind of our lives, doing the same thing over and over again. We are bored. So boredom is responsible for asking the question, 'What is the purpose?' Man feels that if this is all that is there, what more is there for him to do? *You said that if we get bored we invent something or the other. We create all sorts of things.

*Why does man get bored? Because man imagines that there is something more interesting, more meaningful, more purposeful to do than what he is actually doing. Anything you want above the basic needs creates this boredom for the human being. You get the feeling, 'Is that all?' Nature is interested only in two things--to survive and to reproduce. Anything you superimpose on that, all the cultural input, is responsible for boredom. So we have varieties of religious experience. You are not satisfied with your own religious teachings or games; so you bring in others form India, Asia, or China. They become interesting because they are new. You pick up a new language and try to speak it and use it to feel more important. But basically, it is the same thing. * Christianity tells us to develop our talents. But you need no talent to reproduce. No talent is required to reproduce. Nature has done a tremendous job in creating this extraordinary piece--the body. The body does not want to learn anything from culture. It doesn't want to know anything from us. We are always interested in telling this body how to function. All our experiences, spiritual or otherwise, are the basic cause of our suffering. The body is not interested in your bliss or your ecstasies. It is not interested in your pleasure. It is not interested in anything that you are interested in. And that is the battle that is going on all the time. But there seems to be no way out. * We have lost touch with the original state somewhere.... ...because culture or society has placed before us the model of a perfect being. Nature does not imitate anything. It does not use anything as a model.

* Where does it all lead us? It leads you to where you actually stand and therefore the question.... (Laughter) * Asking questions about all this is wrong? Don't ask this question. You have no questions and I have no questions. I have no questions at all other than the basic questions we need to ask. I am here and I want to get the bearings of this place. So I go and find out. I ask, 'Where is this station?' If I want to go to London, I ask, 'Where is the British Airways office?' These are the basic questions we need to ask to function sanely and intelligently in this world. We do have to accept the reality of the world as it is imposed on us. Otherwise we will go crazy. If you question the reality of anything that is imposed on you, you are in trouble because there is no such thing as reality, let alone ultimate reality. You have no way of experiencing the reality of anything. * Well, we have invented reality.... We have invented reality. Otherwise you have no way of experiencing the reality of anything--the reality of that person sitting there, for instance, or even (the reality of) your own physical body. You have no way of experiencing that at all except through the help of the knowledge that has been put in you. So, there may not be any such thing as reality at all, let alone the ultimate reality. I do have to accept the fact that you are a man, that she is a woman. That is all. There it stops. But what is the reality you are talking about? * When I was a little kid my parents and the people around told me about the bearings of my culture. I was trained not to question them. They don't want you to question. They force on us everything they believed

in, even the things they themselves did not believe, the things that did not operate in their lives. There is no use blaming them now. We are adults. So we don't have to blame them. This is a silly idea, the Freudian idea that for everything that is happening your mother is responsible or your father is responsible. We are all grown-up people. There is no point in blaming our mothers and fathers. It is not a one-way street. Even children want to be accepted by us. We force them to fit into this framework and they want to be accepted by us. This is two-way traffic. * So there is no way of seeing what I think I see. You never see anything. The physical eye does not say anything. There is no way you can separate yourself from what you are looking at. We have We have only sensory perceptions. They do not tell us about that thing--for example, that it is a camera. The moment you recognize that it is a camera, and a Sony camera at that, you have separated yourself from it. So what you are actually doing is translating sensory perceptions within the framework of the knowledge you have of it. We never look at anything. It is too dangerous to look because that 'looking' destroys the continuity of thinking. We project the knowledge we have of whatever we are looking at. Even if you say that it is an object without giving it a name, like, for example, 'camera', knowledge has already entered. It is good for a Philosophy student to talk about this everlastingly, separating the object from the word, or separating the word from the thing. But actually, if you say that it is an object, you have already separated yourself from it. Even if you don't give a name to it, or recognize it as something, or call it a camera, a video camera, you have already separated yourself from it. All that is already there in the computer. We are not conscious of the fact that we have all that information locked up there in the computer. It emerges suddenly. We think it is something original. You think that you are looking at it for the first time in your life. You are not. Supposing

somebody tells you that this is something new, you are trying to relate what he calls new to the framework of the old knowledge that you have. * So if it is not in the computer, you cannot see it. You cannot. If the information is not already there, there is no way you can see. There is only a reflection of the object on the retina. Even scientists who have done a great deal of observation and research would agree. There is no way of experiencing the fact of that for yourself, because the stimulus and response are one unitary movement. The moment you separate yourself, you have created a problem. You may talk of the unity of life or the oneness of life and all that kind of stuff and nonsense. But there is no way you can create that unitary movement through any effort of yours. The only way for anyone who is interested in finding out what this is all about is to watch how this separation is occurring, how you are separating yourself from the things that are happening around you and inside you. Actually there is no difference between the outside and the inside. It is thought that creates the frontiers and tells us that this is the inside and something else is the outside. If you tell yourself that you are happy, miserable, or bored, you have already separated yourself from that particular sensation that is there inside you. * And the cells react to what we think? The cells are wearing out. That's why I say that the tragedy that is facing mankind is not AIDS or cancer, but Alzheimer's disease. We are using the neurons, our memory, constantly to maintain our identity. Whether you are awake or asleep or dreaming, this process is carried on. But it is wearing you out. You experience what you know. Without the knowledge, you have no way of experiencing anything. There is no such thing as a new experience at all. When you tell yourself that it is a new experience, it is the old that tells you

that it is a new experience. Otherwise, you have no way of saying that it is something new. It is the old that tells you that it is new. And through that it is making it part of the old. The only way it (the experience) can maintain its continuity is through the constant demand to know. If you don't know what you are looking at, the 'you' as you know yourself, the 'you' as you experience yourself, is going to come to an end. That is death. That is the only death and there is no other death. * That's terrifying.... That is terrifying--the fear of losing what you know. So actually, you don't want to be free from fear. You do not want the fear to come to and end. All that you are doing --all the therapies and techniques that you are using to free yourself from fear, for whatever reason you want to be free from fear-is the thing that is maintaining the fear and giving continuity to it. So you do not want the fear to come to an end. If the fear comes to an end, the fear of what you know comes to an end. You will physically drop dead. Clinical death will take place. * You said that we would die if we gave up our beliefs. You replace one belief with another. You can't be without a belief. What you call 'you' is only a belief. If the belief goes, you go with it. That is the reason why, when you are not satisfied with one belief-structure, you replace it with another. * Do you believe that there is nothing wrong with the world? I don't see anything wrong with this world because the world can't be any different. I am not interested in making a living out of telling people that the world needs some change, radical or otherwise. If you are a politician or a president of a nation, then it is a different story. Otherwise it is what it

is. We being what we are, the world cannot be any different. What I say is not an abstraction. You and I living together is the world. * You often say, 'You are the medium through which I can express myself.' Yes. You are the medium through I can express myself. There is no other way. I don't even have the impetus to express myself. You may well ask me, 'Why the hell do you talk? Why the hell do you meet people?' It is you who have brought all these people. Why do you ask me questions? That is one of the reasons why I have always avoided publicity of any kind. I don't want to promote myself, nor will I allow others to promote me. * What is nature? All of us are the same. That's what I am saying. * There is still a sidestepping of nature. What is that? Yes. That's it. That is exactly what I am saying. To sidestep the complexities of this society is one of the biggest mistakes that we are making. But there is nothing out there, you see. All these god men, gurus and flunkies are offering us a new oasis. You will find out that it is no different from other mirages. We are leaving everything for some mythical certainty offered to us. But this is the only reality and there is no other reality. What I am emphasizing is, if your energy is not wasted in pursuit of some mythical certainties offered to us, life becomes very simple. But we end up being wasted, misled and misspent individuals. If that energy is released, what is it that we can't do to survive in the midst of these complexities created by our culture? It is very simple. The attempt to sidestep these complexities is the very thing that is causing us all these problems. * I get the impression that what you are proposing is in a way a

revolutionary idea. When you say, 'All these flunkies and god men', it's a kind of revolt. They are giving you false comfort and that is what people want. The mainstream of the population is not interested in what I am saying. They hear what they want to hear. What I say is of no interest to them. If you say that God is redundant, it is not a rebellion against anything. You know religious thinking is outdated and outmoded. But I go one step further and say that all political ideologies are nothing but the warty outgrowth of the same religious thinking. They may call it a revolution. But revolution is only a revaluation of things. You will only end up creating another value system which may be slightly different from the value system that we want to destroy. But basically they are all the same. That is why when it (the revolution) settles down, it calls for another revolution. Even the talk of the continuous revolution of Mao Tse-tung has failed. In the very nature of things, a revolution has to settle down. * Coming back to what you said earlier about rejecting the whole past-experiences, thoughts, everything.... It is not something that you can do through any effort, will or volition of yours. It has to be a miracle. Whatever has happened to me has happened despite everything I did. In fact, everything I did only blocked it. It prevented the possibility of whatever was there to express itself. Not that I have gained anything. Only what is there is able to express itself without any hindrance, without any constraints or restraints imposed on it by society for its own reasons, for its own continuity and stability. * Shouldn't we have to search first? The search is inevitable and is an integral part of it. That is why it has turned us all into neurotics and has created this duality for us. You see, ambition is a reality, competition is a reality. But you have superimposed

on that reality the idea that you should not be ambitious. It has turned us all into neurotic individuals. We want two things at the same time. Whether he is here or in America or in Russia or anywhere else, what does man want? He wants happiness without one moment of unhappiness. He wants permanent pleasure without pain. This is the basic demand-permanence. It is this demand that has created religious thinking--God, Truth or Reality. Since things in life are not permanent, we demand that there must be something permanent. That is why these religious teachers are peddling their wares in the streets. They offer you these comforters: 'permanent happiness' or 'permanent bliss'. Are they ready to accept the fact that bliss, beatitude, immensity, love and compassion are also sensual? * You mean there is nothing to what Christ or Buddha said? Let's leave them alone. Otherwise we will all be in trouble. * You say that there is no individual. Where is the individual? * Well, I feel I am one. You are not an individual. You are doing exactly the same thing that everybody is doing. * Am I not separate from this body and that body? No, not at all. * How are we connected? If you accept what I am talking about, it's a very dangerous situation. Your wife goes, you see. * No relationship...?

No relationship. Sorry.... * I don't want it. You don't want it? 'How can you ask for this?' is all that I am saying. You are only trying to fit me into a framework by calling me an enlightened man. This fellow (U.G. points to a guest) is telling everyone, 'Jesus is living here. Why should I go to church?' He is crazy. (Laughter) Don't you think that they (the religious people) have all created a mess for us. They laid the foundation for destruction. * From what I understand, you don't have to reach for answers because all the answers are really coming from the answers that you already have. But is there any way you can free yourself from that activity? * Isn't it in a way a part or expression of that state? There is no other way I can point out the danger that is involved in your seeking whatever you are seeking. You see, there is this pleasure movement. I am not against the pleasure movement. I am neither preaching hedonism nor advocating any 'ism' or anything. What I am saying is a threat to 'you' as you know yourself and experience yourself. You necessarily fit me into that framework (of the Buddha, Jesus and others) and if you don't succeed, you will say, 'How can he be outside of it?' The way out for you is either to reject me totally, or to call me a fraud or a fake. You see, the feeling, 'How can all of them be wrong?' prevents you from listening to me. Or else you put it another way and say that the content of whatever has happened to U.G. and to them is the same but his expression is different. * Let us talk of the big-bang theory of the universe.

I question the big-bang theory. * But you know that we were all atoms in the beginning. I am questioning even fundamental particles. We will never be able to find the fundamental particles. * In your first book you talk of the ionization of thought and an explosion. From then on, understanding is not through the intellect. We have developed and sharpened the intellect through the years. So it (the intellect, in U.G.) understood in its own way that it is not the instrument, that there is no other instrument and that there is nothing to understand. My problem was in using this intellect to understand whatever I was looking for. But it didn't help me to understand a thing. So I was searching for some other instrument to understand, that is, intuition, this, that and the other. But I realized that this is the only instrument I have and the hope that I would understand something through some other instrument, on some level and some other way, disappeared. It dawned on me, 'There is nothing to understand.' When this happened, it hit me like a shaft of lightning. From then on, the very demand to understand anything was over. That understanding is the one that is expressing itself now. And it cannot be used as an instrument to guide, direct or help me, you or anybody. * Are you afraid of death? There is nothing to die here (in U.G.). The body cannot be afraid of death. The movement that is created by society or culture is what does not want to come to an end. How it came to an end (in U.G.) I really don't know. What you are afraid of is not death. In fact, you don't want to be free from fear. * Why?

Because when you fear comes to an end you will drop dead. * Why? That is its nature. It is the fear that makes you believe that you are living and that you will be dead. What we do not want is the fear to come to an end. That is why we have invented all these new minds, new science, new talk, therapies, choiceless awareness and various other gimmicks. Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. What you call 'yourself' is fear. The 'you' is born out of fear--it lives in fear, functions in fear and dies in fear. * It is difficult to put you in a definite category. All those who come to see me have this problem of where to fit me. It is easy for them to call me a god man, enlightened man, guru and stick all those fancy labels on me. 'That is our difficulty,' they say. 'We really don't know where to fit you. It is a reflection on our intelligence,' they say. Even the philosophers talk of the impossibility of fitting me into a framework. But this doesn't necessarily make me feel superior or proud. * If the world can't find a label for you, what kind of label do you find for the world? I am quite satisfied with the world! (Laughter) Quite satisfied. The world cannot be any different. Traveling destroys many illusions and creates new illusions for us. I have discovered, to my dismay, if I may put it that way, that human nature is exactly the same whether a person is a Russian or an American or someone from somewhere else. It is as though we all speak the same language but the accent is different. I will probably speak (English) with an Andhra accent, you with a Kannada accent and someone else with a French accent. But basically human beings are exactly the same. There is absolutely no difference. I don't see any difference at all. Culture is

probably responsible for the differences. We being what we are, the world cannot be any different. As long as there is a demand in you to bring about a change in yourself, you want to bring about a change in the world. Because you can't fit into the framework of culture and its value system, you want to change the world so that you can have a comfortable place in it. * What I understand from what you are saying is that we are operating under a value system, whether it is good or bad. You see, both good and bad, right and wrong, are not the reverse of a coin but are the same coin. They are like the two ends of the spectrum. One cannot exist independent of the other. When once you are finished with this duality, (I am using the word with much caution as I don't really like to use it) when you are no longer caught up in the dichotomy of right and wrong or good and bad, you can never do anything wrong. As long as you are caught up in it, the danger is that you will always do wrong; and if you don't do wrong, it is because you are a frightened 'chicken'. It is out of this cowardice that religious thinking is born. * You were saying in some context that anger is not bad and that it cannot do any harm. Anger is like an outburst of energy. It is like the high tide and the low tide in the sea. The question, 'What to do with anger?' is something put in there by culture, because society considers an angry man a threat to its status quo, to its continuity. * Well, you are not a threat then. I am not a threat. I am not a threat because I cannot, you see, conceive of the possibility of anything other than this. I am not interested in changing anything. You are the one that is all the time talking of bringing about a

change. At the same time, everything around you and inside of you is in a flux. It is constantly changing. Everything around you is changing; yet you don't want change. You see, that's the problem. Your unwillingness to change is really the problem and you call it tradition. You dub 'unwillingness to change with the changing things,' a great tradition. * Why does nature deliberately want to first create and then destroy? Because nothing is ever born and nothing ever dies. What has created the space between creation and destruction or the time between the two, is thought. In nature there is no death or destruction at all. What occurs is the reshuffling of atoms. If there is a need or necessity to maintain the balance of energy in this universe, death occurs. You may not like it. Earthquakes may be condemned by us. Surely they cause misery to so many thousands and thousands of people. And all this humanitarian activity around the world--sending planeloads of supplies is really a commendable act. It helps those who are suffering there and those who have lost their property. But it is the same kind of activity that is responsible for killing millions and millions of people. What I am saying is that the destructive, war-making movement and the humanitarian movement on the other hand--are both born from the same source. In the long run, earthquakes and the eruption of volcanoes are part of nature's way of creating something new. Now, you know, something strange is happening in America--the volcanic eruptions. Some unknown forms of life are growing there in that very thing which was destroyed. Of course, I am not saying that you should not do anything to help those people. The self-consciousness that occurred in the human species may be a necessary thing. I don't know. I am not claiming that I have a special insight into the workings of nature. Your question can be answered only that way. You see for yourself. That's why I say that the very foundation of human culture is to kill and to be killed. It has happened so. If one is

interested in looking at history right from the beginning, the whole foundation of humanity is built on the idea that those who are not with us are against us. That's what is operating in human thinking. So, to kill and to be killed in the name of God, represented by the church in the West and all the other religious thinking here in the East, was the order of the day. That's why there is this fundamentalism here in this country now. The Chinese-what horrors they have committed, you will be surprised. They killed scholars and religious people. They burned and buried the books of Confucius and other teachers. Today the political ideologies represented by the state are responsible for the killing of people. And they claim that what they are doing is the result of some great revolution that they had started. Revolution is nothing but the revaluation of our values. It really does not mean anything. After a while it settles down and that is why they are talking of Glasnost there (in the Soviet Union). But it does not really mean anything there. Gorbachev is going to create a hundred Punjabs in that country. * We do seem to have a need to search and find something. The body does not want to learn anything or know anything because it has that intelligence--native, innate intelligence--that helps it to survive. If this body is in a jungle, it will survive; if it doesn't, it's gone. But it will fight to the last. That's just the way the human body functions. If there is some danger to it, the body throws in everything that is available and tries to protect itself. If it cannot, it gives in. But in a way the body has no death. The atoms in it are put together and what happens at death is a reshuffling of the atoms. They will be used somewhere else. So the body has no birth or death because it has no way of experiencing that it is alive or that it will be dead tomorrow. * We always feel that we have to improve ourselves or find a way out of our misery. Everyone thinks that he or she has to change or get to a higher

level. What is your view on the matter? The moment we ask the question, 'Is there something more to our life than what we are doing?' we set the whole questioning mechanism going. Unfortunately, what has created this interest in the Western nations is the so-called Hippy generation. When they tried drugs, the drugs produced a change in what they called their 'levels of consciousness'. For the first time they experienced something outside the area of their normal experiencing structure. When once we experience something extraordinary, which actually it is not, we look around for varieties of experiences... more and more of the same. That has created a market for all those people from the Eastern countries --India, China and Japan. They flood into these countries and promise to provide answers for their questions. But actually they are selling shoddy goods. What people are interested in is not some answers to their problems but some comforters. As I said before, they are selling ice packs to numb the pain and make you feel comfortable. Nobody wants to ask the basic question: What is the real problem? What is it that they want? What are they looking for? And this (situation) is taken advantage of by the people from the East. If there is anything to what they claim (that they have the answers and solutions for the problems that we are all facing today) it doesn't seem to be evident in the countries from where they come. The basic question which Westerners should throw at them is: 'Have your answers helped the people of your own countries? Do your solutions operate in your own lives?' Nobody is asking them these questions. The hundred different techniques that they offer to you have not been subjected to test. You don't have any statistical evidence to prove that there is something to what they claim. They exploit the gullibility of the people. When once you have everything that you need, the material goodies, you look around and ask the question, 'Is that all there is to it?' And that situation is exploited by those people. They don't have any answers for the problems facing us today.

What is responsible for the human tragedy or the malady that we are confronted with today is that we are interested in maintaining the identities that are created by our culture. We have tremendous faith in the value system that is created by our culture or society or whatever you want to call it. We never question that. We are only interested in fitting ourselves into that value system. It is that demand from society or culture to fit us all into that value system that is the cause of man's tragedy. Somewhere along the line there occurred in human consciousness the demand to find out the answers for loneliness, the isolation that human beings suffer from the rest of the species on this planet. I don't even know if there is any such thing as evolution. If there is, somewhere along the line in that evolutionary process man separated or isolated himself from the rest of creation on this planet. In that isolation, he felt so frightened that he demanded some answers, some comfort, to fill that loneliness, that isolation from the rest of the life around him. Religious thinking was born out of this situation and it has gone on for centuries. But it has not really helped us to solve the problems created by mankind. Even the political systems that we have today are nothing but the warty outgrowth of the spiritual, religious thinking of man. All that has failed and a void has been created. There has been a total failure of our political and economic ideologies. There is a tremendous danger facing mankind today. The void created by the failure of all these ideologies will be taken advantage of by the church. They will preach and shout that we all have to go back to Jesus or go back to the great traditions of our own countries. But what has failed for them is not going to help us to solve our problems. When some psychologists and scientists came to see me, I made this very clear to them, 'You have come to the end of your tether. If you want answers for your problems, you have to find them within your own framework and not look elsewhere, especially not in the ancient dead cultures of the past.' Going back or looking back to those systems and techniques that have failed us is only going to put us on a wrong track, on a

merry-go-round. * If we have created the problems, we are also fighting them. Yes. But we are not ready to accept the fact that what has created the problems cannot itself solve them. What we are using to solve our problems is what we call 'thought'. But thought is a protective mechanism. Thought is only interested in maintaining the status quo. We may talk of change but when the time actually comes for us to change things, we are not ready for it. We insist that change must always be for the better and not for the worse. We have a tremendous faith in the mechanism that has created the problems for us. After all, that is the only instrument that we have at our disposal. But actually it cannot help us at all. It can only create problems, not solve them. We are not ready to accept this fact because accepting it will knock out the whole foundation of human culture. We want to replace one system with another. But the whole structure of culture is pushing us in the direction of completely annihilating all that we have built with tremendous care. We don't want to be free from fear. Anything you do to free yourself from fear is what is perpetuating the fear. Is there any way we can be freed from fear? Fear is something that cannot be handled by thought; it is something living. So we want to put on our gloves and try to touch it, play with it. All that we want to do is to play games with it and talk about freeing ourselves from fear. Or go to this therapist or that, or follow this technique or that. But in that process, what we are actually doing is strengthening and fortifying the very thing that we are trying to be free from. * So we live in a society based on fear. Even our institutions--police, banks, doctors, insurance and everything we have created--are based on fear? Yes, fear. But what is the point in telling ourselves that we are going to be

freed from fear? If that fear comes to an end, you will drop dead, physically! Clinical death will take place! Of course, you and your fear are not two different things. It is comforting to believe that you and fear are two different things. You are frightened of certain things or you do not want this or that to happen. You want to be free from fear. But there is no way you free yourself from it. If the fear comes to an end, 'you' as you know yourself, 'you' as you experience yourself, are going to come to an end, and you are not ready for that sort of thing. The plain fact is that if you don't have a problem, you create one. If you don't have a problem, you don't feel that you are living. So the solutions that we have been offered by the teachers, in whom we have tremendous faith, are not really the solutions. If they were the solutions, the problems wouldn't be there at all. If there are no solutions for the problems, even then the problems wouldn't be there. We would like to live with those problems and if we are free from one problem, we create another. * Does meditation affect the body? You put your body to unnecessary torture. * The body suffers? Yes, the body suffers. It is not interested in your techniques of meditation, which actually are destroying the peace that is already there. It is an extraordinarily peaceful organism. It does not have to do anything to be in a peaceful state. By introducing this idea of a peaceful mind, we set in motion a sort of battle and the battle goes on and on. But what you feel, what you experience as the peaceful state of mind, is a war-weary state of mind created by your thought. Once you experience some peaceful state of mind, you want more and more of the same. This creates problems for the body. * This week I hear there is going to be an important meeting here.

Scientists from all over the world, from different disciplines--people from the spiritual world and the world of industry and economics--are for the first time coming together to talk about the similarities among their respective disciplines, instead of differences. All of them now seem to feel that they should support each other instead of focusing their energies only on differences and the compartments that they create in their minds. First of all, the scientists, by looking or asking for help from all these religious people, are committing the biggest of all blunders. They have come to the end of their tether. If they have problems in their system they have to solve them by and for themselves. These religious people have no answers for the problems created by scientific thinking. I do not know if by coming together and exchanging their views or giving speeches they are going to achieve anything. I may sound very cynical when I say that nothing is going to come out of it except that they will make speeches and feel comfortable that they are trying to understand each other's point of view. When you say something to someone, he will say that that is your point of view. But he does not realize that his also is a point of view. So, how can there by any communication between those two people who have different points of view? The whole purpose of the conversation or dialogue is only to convert the other man to your point of view. If you have no point of view, there is no way he can convince or convert you to his point of view. So this dialogue is between two points of view and there is no way you can reconcile them. The conference would be very interesting (Laughs). They can all come together, talking about that (what is common to their different disciplines) and exchange their views and that would be that. It would be something like the United Nations. (The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?) The problem is that thought creates frontiers everywhere. That's all it can do.

* Do you think that the discover of the laws of nature and the enormous money that is invested in it will ultimately help mankind? Even if we discover the laws of nature, for whatever reason we are interested in doing so, ultimately they are used to destroy everything that nature has created. This propaganda that the planet is in danger is media hype. Everybody has in fact forgotten about it. Actually it is not the planet that is in danger but us. We are not ready to face this situation squarely. We must not look for answers in the past or in the great heritage of this or that nation. And we must not look to the religious thinkers. They don't have any answers. If the scientists look to religious leaders for their solutions, they are committing the biggest blunder. Religious people put us all on the wrong track and there is no way you can reverse the process. * What do you think we should do then? I am not here to save mankind or prophesy that we are all heading toward a disaster. I am not talking of an Armageddon, nor am I prophesying that there is going to be a paradise on this planet. Nothing of the sort; there is not going to be any paradise. It is the idea of a paradise, the idea of creating a heaven on this earth, that has turned this beautiful paradise that we already have on this planet into a hell. We are solely responsible for what is happening. And the answers for our problems cannot come from the past and its glory or from the great religious teachers of mankind. Those teachers will naturally claim that you all have failed and that they have the answers for the problems that we are confronted with today. I don't think that they have any answers. We have to find the answers, if any, for ourselves and by ourselves. * I have read somewhere, 'Your image is your best friend.' (Laughs) That's a sales pitch; it's very interesting. In fact, it's the other way around: the image we have is responsible for our problems. What, after all,

is the world? The world is the relationship between two individuals. But that relationship is based on the foundation of 'What do I get out of a relationship?' Mutual gratification is the basis of all relationships. If you don't get what you want out of a relationship, it goes sour. What there is in the place of what you call a 'loving relationship' is hate. When everything fails, we play the last card in the pack, and that is 'love'. But love is fascist in its nature, in its birth, in its expression and in its actions. It cannot do us any good. We may talk of love but it doesn't mean anything. The whole music of our age is around that song, 'Love, Love, Love ....' * Do you like television? Yes, I do watch television. I turn the sound off and watch the movement only. I like to watch the commercials because most of the commercials are more interesting than the programs. If people can fall for the commercials, they can fall for anything that these religious people are selling today in the market. How can you fall for those commercials? But they are very interesting. It is not the commercials nor what they are selling that interests me but the techniques of salesmanship. They are amazing and more interesting--I am fascinated by those techniques. I am not influenced by what they are selling. If they had customers like me they would soon be out of business. I don't buy anything they are selling. * Soon they will have commercials in Russia and Eastern Europe. That's what has happened in Russia. It is not your (American) ideas of democracy or freedom that have won the country over to your side. It was Coca Cola, I think, in China, and Pepsi Cola in Russia. Why do they have to sell organically grown potato chips there in Russia? I want to know. They have also opened a McDonald's there. That's all that the West can offer to them. That is how it (commercialism) is spreading. If America survives, if we survive and if we don't destroy ourselves through our own

idiotic ways of living and thinking, the American way of life is going to be the way of life. Even in the third world countries, including India, we have supermarkets. They are very innovative, the Americans. So, it (commercialism) is spreading all over. * What is your attitude to money? Money is the most important factor in our lives. They say that money is the root cause of all evil. But actually it is not the root cause of evil; it is the root cause of our existence, of our survival. I sometimes say that if you worship that God, the money God, you will by amply rewarded. If you worship the other God--whether He exists or not is anybody's guess--you will be stripped of everything you have and He will leave you naked in the streets. It is better to worship the money God. Tell me one person who is not thinking of money. Not one person on this planet. Even the holy ones who talk about their indifference to money are concerned about it. How do you think they will get ninety-two Rolls Royces? You try and buy one Rolls Royce car; you will know how difficult it is. For the religious people it is easy because other people deny themselves and give their money to them. So you can be rich at another man's expense. How much money you need is a different matter. Each one has to draw his own line. But when once your goals and needs are the same, then the problem is very simple. * So you stay more or less here, in this moment and deal with what happens right now. When once that becomes a reality in your life, it becomes very simple to live in this world, the complex and complicated world created by us all. We are all responsible for this world. When once this demand to change yourself into something better, something other than what you actually are, is not there, the demand to change the world also comes to an end. I don't see anything wrong with the world. What is wrong with this world? The

world can't be any different from what we are. If there is a war going on within us, we cannot expect a peaceful world around us. We will certainly create war. You may say that it all depends upon who is responsible for the war. It is simply a point of view as to who is calling another a warmonger and himself the peace-monger. The peace-mongers and the warmongers sail in the same boat. It is something like the pot calling the kettle black or the other way around: the kettle calling the pot black. * We are stuck in words and ideas. We dare not leave 'what is' alone. It implies that you are still grappling with what you romantically phrase as 'what is'. It is like dealing with the unknown. There is no such thing as the unknown. The known is still trying to make the unknown part of the known. It is a game that we play. That is how we fool ourselves in our approach to problems. All our positive approaches have failed and we have invented what is called the 'negative approach'. But the negative approach is still interested in the same goal that the positive approach is interested in. What is necessary for us is to free ourselves from the goal. When once we are freed from the goal (of solving problems) the question of whether it is a positive approach or a negative approach does not even arise. * So in nature, the positive and the negative don't exist at all? They don't exist at all. If they do, they exist in the same frame. That is what all these scientists are talking about. If you observe the universe, there is chaos in it. The moment you say there is chaos, in the same frame, there is also order. So, you cannot, for sure, say that there is order or chaos in the universe. Both of them are occurring simultaneously. That is the way the living organism also operates. The moment thought is born, it cannot stay there. Thought is matter. When once the matter that is necessary for the survival of the living organism is created, that matter becomes part of

energy. Similarly life and death are simultaneous processes. It is thought that has separated and created the two points of birth and death. Thought has created this space and this time. But actually, birth and death are simultaneous processes. You cannot say that you are alive or dead. But if you ask me the question, 'Are you alive?' I would certainly say, 'I am alive.' So my answer is the common knowledge you and I have about how a living being functions. That is how I say that I am a living being and not a dead person. But we give tremendous importance to these ideas. We sit and discuss them everlastingly and produce a tremendous structure of thought around them. * Does that mean that the scientists who are coming next week need to recognize the fact that there is no way out? If they could, then they wouldn't give any solutions and wouldn't offer anything. There is no way out. The solution for their problems is to accept the fact that there is no way out. And out of that (acceptance) something can come. * Even if you understand the right or wrong of the matter...? It is not a question of calling it right or wrong. There is no way out. Anything you do to get out of this trap which you yourself have created is strengthening and fortifying it. So, you are not ready to accept the fact that you have to give up. A complete, total surrender. I don't like using that word 'surrender' because it has certain mystical overtones. It is a state of hopelessness which says that there is no way out of this situation. Any movement, in any direction, on any level, is taking you away from that. Maybe something can happen there, we don't know. But even that hope that something will happen is still a hope. * Sometimes it so happens that when you give up everything the problem gets automatically resolved.

Yes. This happens to all those who are working out some mathematical or scientific problem. They go to sleep when they are exhausted and that gives some time for the mechanism that is involved to give an answer. It is not some miraculous thing. You give some time for the computer to work out a solution to your problem. On its own it comes out with the answer but only if there is an answer. If there is no answer then that is the end of the story. * So you let go? It is very difficult to frame questions because of the problem of language. Our language structure is such that there is no way you can be free from a dualistic approach to problems. Again, I'm not happy using the word 'dualistic' because it has religious connotations. * What is the relationship between words and reality? None. There is nothing beyond words. * Is life difficult? Life is difficult. So discipline sounds very attractive to people. With great admiration we say, 'He has suffered a lot.' Our entire religious thinking is built on the foundation of suffering. If not for religion, you suffer for the cause of your country in the name of patriotism.... * For your family.... Those who impose that kind of discipline on us are sadists. But unfortunately we are all being masochists in accepting that. We torture ourselves in the hope of achieving something.... We are slaves to our ideas and beliefs. We are not ready to throw them out. If we succeed in throwing them out, we replace them with another set of beliefs, another body of discipline. Those who are marching into the battlefield and are ready to be

killed today in the name of democracy, in the name of freedom, in the name of communism, are no different from those who threw themselves to the lions in the arenas. The Romans watched with great joy. How are we different from them? Not a bit. We love it. To kill and to be killed is the foundation of our culture. * Wherever you go people comment on your demeanor and your physical appearance. How do you keep fit? I know you don't practice yoga or any other form of exercise. I don't exercise at all. The only walking I do is from my place to the post office, which is about a half a kilometer or even a quarter of a mile away from where I live. But I used to walk a lot. I am afraid that I may have to pay a heavy price for all the walking that I did before. You know, I am not competent enough to offer any comments on these matters. But one thing I want to assert is that for some reason this body of ours does not want to know anything or learn anything from us. No doubt we have made tremendous advances in the field of medical technology. But are they really helping the body? That is one of the basic questions that we should ask. * Can we actually help the body? I think what we are actually doing is trying to treat the symptoms of what we call a disease. But my question is, and I always throw this question at the people who are competent enough--the doctors--what is health? What is disease? Is there any such thing as disease for this body? You know, we translate the 'malfunctioning' (of the body) to mean that there is some imbalance in the natural rhythm of the body. Not that we know what the rhythm of the body actually is. But we are so frightened that we run to a doctor or to somebody who we think is in the know of things and can help us. We do not give a chance for the body to work out the problems created by the situation we find ourselves in. We do not give enough time for the

body. We do not know whether our bodies are healthy or unhealthy. * We do (know). We translate health into being free from any symptoms. If I don't have a pain in my knee, then I don't have a disease there. We indulge in medical research in order to gather useful knowledge that could be applied when there is a pain in the knee. But what is pain? I am not asking a metaphysical question. To me pain is a healing process. But we do not give enough chance or opportunity to the body to hear itself or help itself, to free itself from what we call pain. * You are saying that all the things we do are in some way or other probably hindering the body from living longer, healthier and happier. So we must leave the body alone. Yes, leave the body alone. Don't get frightened and rush here, there and everywhere. In any case, there is no way you can conquer death at all. * I get what you say. People are trying subconsciously to prevent death. Our pushing people into a value system is a very undesirable thing, you know. You want to push everybody into a value system. We never question that this value system which we have cherished for centuries may be the very thing that is responsible for our misery. * Yes, that may be the very thing that is generating disease. Disease and conflict in our lives. We really don't know. Another thing I want to emphasize is that what we call identity, the 'I', the 'me', the 'you', the 'center', the 'psyche', is artificially created. It does not exist at all. * It is also a cultural phenomenon.

Yes, it has been culturally created. We are doing everything possible to maintain that identity, whether we are asleep, awake, or dreaming. The instrument that we use to maintain this identity strengthens, fortifies and gives continuity to it. The constant use of memory is wearing you out. We really do not know what memory is but we are constantly using it to maintain that non-existent identity of ours. * So we keep coming back to this point that thought itself seems to be the enemy, the interloper. It is our enemy. Thought is a protective mechanism. It is interested in protecting itself at the expense of the living organism. * You are saying that thought is the thing that causes people's worries. It's thought that is creating all our problems and it is not the instrument to help us solve the problems created by itself. * You talk of a state that is entirely natural to man. I want to know if that natural state can be acquired by effort--if it can be acquired at all--or is it simply a chance occurrence? When I use the term 'natural state' it is not a synonym for 'enlightenment', 'freedom', or 'God-realization' and so forth. Not at all. When the totality of mankind's knowledge and experience loses its stranglehold on the body -the physical organism--then the body is allowed to function in its own harmonious way. Your natural state is a biological, neurological and physical state. * Then I presume that you agree with modern science, that it is the genes that control our behavior and destinies. I can make no definitive statements about the part genes play in the evolutionary process but at the moment it appears that Darwin was at least

partially wrong in insisting that acquired characteristics could not be genetically transmitted. I think that they are transmitted in some fashion. I am not competent enough to say whether the genes play any part in the transmission. Anyway, the problem lies in our psyche. We function in a thought-sphere and not in our biology. The separative thought structure, which is the totality of man's thoughts, feelings, experiences and so on--what we call 'psyche' or 'soul' or 'self'--is creating the disturbance. That is what is responsible for our misery; that's what continues the battle that is going on there (in the human being) all the time. This interloper, the thought sphere, has created your entire value system. The body is not in the least interested in values, much less a value system. It is only concerned with intelligent moment-to-moment survival, and nothing else. Spiritual 'values' have no meaning to it. When, through some miracle or chance you are freed from the hold of thought and culture, you are left with the body's natural functions and nothing else. It then functions without the interference of thought. Unfortunately, the servant, which is the thought structure that is there, has taken possession of the house. But he can no longer control and run the household. So he must be dislodged. It is in this sense that I use the term 'natural state', without any connotation of spirituality or enlightenment. * Still, for most of us, many questions remain. We want to somehow find out what life is, if it has any meaning. Life is something which you cannot capture, contain and give expression to. Energy is an expression of life. What is death? It is simply a condition of the human body. There is no such thing as death. What you have are ideas about death, ideas which arise when you sense the absence of another person. Your own death, or the death of your near and dear ones, is not something you can experience. What you actually experience is the void created by the disappearance of another individual and the unsatisfied

demand to maintain the continuity of your relationship with that person for a non-existent eternity. The arena for the continuation of all these 'permanent' relationships is the tomorrow--heaven, next life and so on. These things are the inventions of a mind interested only in its undisturbed, permanent continuity in a 'self'- generated, fictitious future. The basic method of maintaining the continuity is the incessant repetition of the question, 'How? How? How? How am I to live? How can I be happy? How can I be sure I will be happy tomorrow?' This has made life an insoluble dilemma for us. We want to know and through that knowledge we hope to continue with our miserable existence forever. * So many people in this society are interested in .... Society cannot be interested in what I am talking about. Society is, after all, two individuals or a thousand of them put together. Because I am a direct threat to you individually--as you know and experience yourself--I am also a threat to society. How can society possibly be interested in this sort of thing? Not a chance. Society is the sum of relationships and despite what you may find agreeable to believe, all these relationships are sordid and horrible. This is the unsavory fact; take it or leave it. You cannot help but superimpose over these horrible, ugly relationships a soothing fictitious veneer of 'loving', 'compassionate', 'brotherly' and 'harmonious' or some other fancy notion. * I often ask myself, what are my obligations to my fellow beings? None whatsoever.... Sorry. All you are interested in is self-fulfillment, the ultimate goal of a Nobel Prize and power. I am very sorry. Personally, you may not be interested in that kind of thing. That's all. I encourage that kind of pursuit. Of course, you scientists have made all this comfort-bearing technology possible and in that sense, I, like all those who enjoy the benefits of modern technology, am indeed indebted. I don't want to go back

to the days of the spinning wheel and the bullock cart. That would be too silly, too absurd. Pure science is nothing but speculation. Scientists discuss formulas endlessly and provide us with some equations. But I am not at all taken in by the 'march of progress' and all that rot. The first trip I made to the US in the Thirties took more than a full day and we had to stop everywhere. Later, the same trip took eighteen hours, then twelve hours and even more recently, six hours and three and so on. And if the supersonic jets are put to commercial use we may be able to make the trip in one-and-ahalf hours. All right, that's progress. But the same technology that makes fast international travel possible is making ever more deadly military fighter planes. How many of these planes are we using for faster and more comfortable travel from one point to another? And how many more hundreds of planes are we using to destroy life and property? You call this progress? I don't know. As the comforts increase, we come to depend upon them, and are loath to give up anything we have. Within a particular frame I say it is progress. I am now living in an airconditioned room. My grandfather used a servant who sat in the hot sun and pulled punkah and before that we used a palm leaf hand fan. As we move into more and more comfortable situations we don't want to give up anything. * Some would argue that a humanity restored, not through science but through love, is our only hope. I still maintain that it is not love, compassion, humanism, or brotherly sentiments that will save mankind. No, not at all. It is the sheer terror of extinction that can save us, if anything can. Each cell of a living organism cooperates with the cell next to it. It does not need any sentiment or declarations of undying love to do so. Each cell is wise enough to know that if its neighbor goes, it also goes. The cells stick together not out of brotherhood, love and that kind of thing but out of the urgent drive to survive now. It is the same with us but only on a larger scale. Soon we will

all come to know one simple thing: If I try to destroy you, I will also be destroyed. We see the superpowers of today signing arms-control pacts, rushing to sign no-first-strike accords and the like. Even the big bully boys, who have among them controlled the world's resources no longer talk about a successful nuclear war. Even the arrogant, swashbuckling United States has changed its tune. It no longer talks--as it did twenty years ago under Dulles and other cold warriors--of massive retaliation. If you read the Time magazine now, it doesn't talk about the United States as the mightiest, the richest, the most powerful and the most invincible of all nations. It refers to it as 'one of the superpowers.' * Somehow I do feel a responsibility to my fellow beings, not in a philosophical or spiritual sense but in a more fundamental sense. You see someone starving and you would like to do something about it. As an individual you can. But the moment you start an institution and the institutions try to enlist individuals' help, then the whole thing is destroyed. You have to organize and there is no other way. That means my plan and your plan. It means war. * As you would say, the urge to help is a result of my culture. When you see someone sad, tears come to your eyes. We empathize .... We translate that as sadness and the tears follow as a sentimental effect. But the tear ducts are there to protect your eyes from going blind, to keep them lubricated and cleansed and not to respond to the suffering of others. This may be a crude way of putting things but that's the fact of the matter. * I would like to put to you one more question somewhat unrelated to what we have been discussing: This is a question many people would like to ask you. What is your opinion regarding the existence of God? Oh my God! You really want my answer? To me the question of whether

God exists or not is irrelevant and immaterial. We have no use for God. We have used God to justify the killing of millions and millions of people. We exploit God. That's the positive aspect of it, not the negative. In the name of God we have killed more people than in the two world wars put together. In Japan, millions of people died in the name of the sacred Buddha. Here in India, five thousand Jains were massacred in a single day. This is not a peaceful nation! You don't want to read your own history--it's full of violence from the beginning to the end. * U.G., to most people, and at times to me, you sound totally absurd--I can't understand much of what you say and neither can people who have read your books at times make out what you are and yet there's something that makes us take notice of you. It's the manner in which you say whatever you say. There's a strange kind of certainty with which you say things. What have you stumbled into? There is no way I can tell you how I stumbled into what I stumbled into-the 'how' and 'what' are problems that confront us. You don't realize that it is the question which has created the problem and you have not accepted the fact that solutions are responsible for the problems. * Let's talk about the Valiums that we have surrounded ourselves with. Success, the quest for Moksha etc., relationships--these are our Valiums but of late, I see so many people I know, heading for a nervous breakdown. What is the glue that we can get to hold us together? Is there a glue that can keep mankind together? What happens if the whole thing falls apart? Why are you frightened of the chaos that may not result? Why are you frightened that there will be chaos? Why do you want to hold on to things exactly the way they are? You may talk of change but you are not really interested in change. What you are interested in is change for the better but you don't realize that change is

occurring all the time. Your unwillingness to change with a changing environment is responsible for the demand for a glue. There are so many people marketing all kinds of glues but they will not help you at all.... * You see no hierarchy in the glue, religion, sexual pursuit, alcoholism. Whether you use one or the other, it's okay by you but for us in society, going into a church or mosque is acceptable while going into a whore house or bar to find respite is condemned. To you the demand for all those things is exactly the same but the society in which we are living today considers certain actions as socially acceptable and certain other actions anti-social. You may call yourself a rebel, a revolutionary and break away but you will certainly create another form no different and distinct from the structure in which you are caught up. There is no such thing as a revolution at all. What you call revolution is only a revaluation of your value system. The basic problem is the impossibility of fitting yourself into the framework, so you want to create another kind of a framework, a new way of thinking but basically and actually and fundamentally there is no difference between the two. * In the sexual act there is a possibility of experiencing that oneness. Perhaps that is why sex has such a tremendous hold on our lives.... The idea that both man and woman can have the peak experience at the same time is false because there is no way that you can prepare yourself to have that moment of oneness in sexual activity. Probably animals have it because there is no foreplay. Whether it is sex or God, once you are stuck in it there is no way you can get out. That is the reason for the existence of tantric sex. Mankind is committed to suicide. It may sound very pessimistic to you but there is no way you can reverse it. Whatever is created has got to go. Birth and death are simultaneous processes and there is no way you can separate the two.

*So I cannot use this man called U.G., or what he says, to make things permanent? It is absurd on your part to demand permanence when there is no such thing as permanence at all. Religious people sell shoddy goods in the marketplace, make you believe that they have some way of satisfying your demand. Although they talk of impermanence, all the time they are suggesting that there is a way that things can be permanent. Nothing is permanent in nature. * It's all right to write of transience, to discuss the concept but when man is face to face with his own extinction.... He is not ready to face the fact that it is going to come to an end. As far as the living organism is concerned there is nothing permanent. Your body, which you have taken for granted, belongs to you. It is not demanding any permanence but is, in a way, permanent. What you call death is a recycling process and that is the only way that nature can enrich energy levels.... * So death is essential for the continuity of life.... Not in the sense in which you think of the continuity of life. In a way we know that it is coming to an end which is why we have invented the 'life after' reincarnation theory. * So first you dream, then you die and life seems like one long process of getting tired.... Not tired.... * To us life seems like a very long process of getting tired.... Because you have established a goal and all that you are doing is trying to

achieve that goal when there is no goal there at all. * Is there no summing up, no full stops? There is no way you can sum up what we have discussed.

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K. CHANDRASEKHAR

Thursday, July 07, 2005

K. CHANDRASEKHAR & U.G. KRISHNAMURTI -- Bangalore, India 1996

EXCERPTS FROM DIALOGUES WITH U.G. KRISHNAMURTI COMPILED FROM AUDIO TAPES BY K. CHANDRASEKHAR, TRANSLATED AND EDITED BY J.S.R.L. NARAYANA MOORTY
My Approach I am not a thinker in the sense in which the word is used. In fact, I have been pointing out to those that come to listen to me that man's problems cannot be solved through thinking. Since he cannot solve his own problems through thinking, there is no question of the world's problems being solved by any thinking by anybody. This is the essence of my communication to those that come to listen to me. At the same time, I point out that it is also not possible to communicate because no communication is possible and no communication is necessary. So how do I go about this funny way? By making people realize that they cannot solve their problems through thinking. They are suffering and the suffering must come to an end. How can man put an end to his suffering? Naturally, it runs

counter to all traditional approaches, both the Indian and Western religious approaches, and also the modern approaches, the psychologists. And through conversation and communication we try to understand that it is really not possible to understand or communicate what I am saying. In other words, my objective in carrying on the conversation is to silence in a way, and put them in a state of silence. And in that silence something can probably happen, and will certainly happen, that's all. So I try to meet their arguments. They come with preconceived ideas, concepts and ideals, and then try to argue and debate with me. My approach is to suggest a counterargument and thereby neutralize their argumentative approach to the problem. This is all I do. **** We all talk of the mind. The religious thinkers, the psychologists -- all talk of the mind. So every individual has to discover for himself, by himself and without relying on any authority, be it religious, scientific or psychological. It has to be your discovery. Otherwise, it has no value. The state of being I am describing is a state where there is no effort at all. I am just a mirror here reflecting things exactly. It Is Bound to Affect the Whole Human Consciousness The human race will somehow survive. But the only thing that one can do is to free himself, because it is a pure, unsullied and uncontaminated consciousness that is operating. So it is bound to affect all those who come into its orbit. You don't have to do a thing. You can sit in one corner of the world, yet it is bound to affect the whole of human consciousness because it is the same, it is exactly the same. It has no frontiers, it has no boundaries. So it is bound to affect the whole human consciousness. That is why I say that this so-called religious experience is an explosion. When this explosion takes place it is bound to affect the whole of human consciousness. You cannot measure it. It is not a thing to measure and statistically prove that so many people have been benefited by it. It is a very slow process. It takes time. It is not a spectacular thing. You cannot produce results with all those that come into contact. Not all those that come into the presence of this consciousness have exploded. And this happens to one in a million. Not because of what he does or does not do; but because it just happens. You call it grace, chance or...

Thinking Is the Problem What causes the pain there? It's not your inability to do... "I just can't do a thing," you begin to think. Thinking is the problem. Sadness is not the problem but thinking about sadness is the problem. Stop thinking. Can you stop thinking? You are trying to stop. That means thinking. I am not suggesting that you should not think. Thought is you. If you are not thinking you are not there. Nothing is there. What is there will begin to express itself. Let that express. Then there is no question. Just leave that alone. It will begin to act. You perpetuate sorrow through your thinking. Nothing is wrong with you at all. You don't have the courage. Accepting whatever there is is courage. That is intelligence. "I don't want to be other than what I am." That is the courage. It is there! It is not a thing to be acquired. You Are That Movement of Thought It is very difficult to understand the area between opposites. If I say I have no friends, it does not mean that I have enemies. If I say that I have no enemies, it does not mean that everybody is a friend to me. So how can you understand the state of being where you have neither friends nor enemies? So you always swing like a pendulum from one end to the other. That is the movement of thought. It is always between these pairs of opposites. You cannot conceive a state of being where these pairs of opposites do not exist at all. Q: But why is it so natural? U.G.: Don't say it is so natural. It is so unnatural -- the unnatural thing you have accepted as natural. That is our tragedy. You have never questioned that, because, if you begin to question, your existence is at stake. You are that. You are not different from this movement of thought. What is necessary for you is to understand the machinery that is functioning inside of you -- the movement of thought. Supposing I tell you, "This is the way," -- then where are you? You experience what I tell you. This knowledge you are going to use and create a state of being and think that you have experienced God, that you have experienced Reality or that you have experienced truth. But that is not the truth. That is not God.

The Courage to Be Yourself You have never let desire just stay there without tampering. That is life. What can you do without desire? The more you want to tamper with it the more it is suffering. You are always suffering because you want to be other than what you are. You just don't have the courage to be yourself. That means you have to be alone in this world -- one without a second. Questioning the Movement of Thought Somebody looked at the millipede and wondered how this small, tiny little worm is able to walk with a thousand legs. So, he asked the question, "How do you manage to walk? I find it so difficult to walk with my two legs." And so the millipede started thinking. And it died. In exactly the same way, the moment you begin to question the movement of thought inside of you, you will find that you are ending up in a very surprising situation -- which is a very frightening thing for you. Samadhi and Ultimate Samadhi There is no use of your talking as if you are born. You are never born and you never die. How can there be any death when you are not born? Neither your birth nor your death can become part of your experiencing structure. That experiencing structure must come to an end. Every one of you will become a self-realized man 48 minutes before you die. I can assure you. But it will be too late. Your body is not in a position to take it. Otherwise, you cannot die. The death always takes place in an unconscious state. You will never die in a conscious state. So these 48 minutes is the time when you attain moksha, liberation or whatever you call it. Why do you want to wait till your body becomes useless? You might as well die to the whole thing and begin to live, live in the sense that you understand that there is no beginning and no end. *** The senses are functioning at their peak capacity all the time. They cannot go on. So every now and then -- that is decided by the circumstances and not by any entity inside -- the defenses must be cut out from outside challenges. So the eyes may be open but you see nothing because the senses are tired. The recovery takes exactly 48 minutes -- the so-called

Samadhi. But the ultimate Samadhi -- I don't want to use the word -- it is very misleading -- it is one second by the clock. This body, this nervous system cannot stand that. It is its physical death. You come to the point of physical death -- it is not the death of the mind, death of the psyche or the death of thought. The body goes through the process of physical death and why it comes back God alone knows. Basic Needs Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of selfdeception. Discover Your Own Path Rejecting All Others The path has to be yours. I don't want to use the term path, because it has mystical... My path, Ramakrishna's path, Jesus's path or the Buddha's path -- they are all worthless. Nobody can come into this unless or until all the other paths are rejected by him. Then it becomes his own path. So only if you reject all the other paths can you discover your own path. Just look at yourself and find out what the hell you are doing with yourself, how you are kidding yourself all the time -how you follow the path of this man, that man and the other man. You are not interested in my path. The path is not going to lead you anywhere. And the path is going to give you what that man has experienced. Silence Is Brahman How can you understand that silence -- chaotic or otherwise? Is it possible for you to capture that silence? When that silence starts operating through you, it is something extraordinary, something vital and living. This structure which is trying to understand the nature of it, capture it, contain it or give expression to it, cannot co-exist with it. The difficulty is you seem to know a lot about this state -- you have imagination. You imagine it to be what is described as "Silence is Brahman" and begin to think about it. This imagination must go. That is something living and the structure which is trying to capture it is a dead structure. You are all dead. You are not living human beings at all. You have never known one living moment in your life. You are living the lives of your thoughts. All thoughts are dead -- it doesn't matter

whose thoughts -- whether those of Shankara, of Ramanuja or of the hundreds of sages, saints and saviors we have had and perhaps have still. It is useless to try to understand that. How can you capture it? If there is any such thing as silence, chaotic or otherwise, living or dead, it will begin to express itself. When it expresses itself you are not there. So, you will never know the nature of that silence at all. What you call silence is not silence at all. Thinking Cannot Solve Your Problems Q: You say that the silence will express itself. How is it that it failed in our case? U.G.: Because you are waiting for the silence to express itself or because you still have the knowledge of that silence. Q: If the natural state is an equilibrium how comethis disturbance? U.G.: Because you are pursuing and seeking a phony equilibrium which does not exist at all, and this is the thing which has been put into you by your culture and society. It is the knowledge of self or silence that is creating this disturbance. The idea or concept of silence you have about silence is causing this disturbance. You are that idea and you want to understand how that idea has come into being. Q: Is there a way to be thinking and at the same time be free from the limitations of thinking? U.G.: No. That will be another, parallel, movement of thought. It is a mechanical thing and can solve only mechanical problems. But you want to use it to understand something living. That is the problem, it is not intended for that. Human problems are something living. You cannot use thinking to solve those problems. Beauty What is beauty? Where is beauty? Is it in the object or in the eye? You project your idea of beauty on the object you are looking at. That is all. There is a beautiful sunset there. The moment you even say to yourself that it is beautiful, you are not looking at it at all. Beauty is not in the object. It is not in the beholder's eye either. It is in the total abandonment of yourself. So, what is beauty? You really don't know. You wouldn't know what you are looking at. And in that state of not knowing what is there fills the whole of your being. That you may call beauty. But there is nobody who describes that beauty and

says he is enjoying it. If you capture that in terms of your experiencing structure, then it is lost. Philosophy of Life Q: What is your philosophy of life? U.G.: None whatsoever. Do you need a philosophy to live? Do you need to know the purpose of life and meaning of life live? You are not living. For only a dead person is interested in asking such questions, not a living man. Whatever meaning you give to life, those ideas are picked up from here, there and everywhere. If it has any meaning, I would never know. *** Q: How do you distinguish the living from the dead? You say that we are dead. U.G.: Any question that comes from anybody is born out of death, not out of a living thing. You Will Never Know a Jivanmukta Q: What are the features of a Jivanmukta or a jnani or a yogi? U.G.: I wish I knew. If a Jivanmukta is sitting right in front of you, you will never know. You have no way of knowing whether a man is a Jivanmukta. You have a definition, a behavior pattern. If he fits into that framework, you call him a Jivanmukta. If there is anyone like that, he will never know that he is a self-realized man or a Jivanmukta. You have been told by somebody that I am a Jivanmukta. I may be a phony, a clever chap. I have picked up the art of elocution and all that. I have travelled around the world. Any actor could do that. How would you know? This Has No Religious Content What I have been trying to say to those that come to listen to me and to those that care to listen to me is that what I have been saying has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. We have all been told, and some of us have been brought up with the belief, that by accepting certain beliefs and trying to live up to them in our daily life, and by due steps, we can aspire to become religious or whatever you want to call it. I am only describing a state of being which is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. It has no religious content. It has no mystical overtones at all.

Probably you want to discuss very serious subjects like attachment and detachment, refinement, sensitivity, and so on and so forth. I have precious little to say on those subjects. You will practice attachment or detachment for the rest of your life, but will never be free from either attachment or detachment. You will always be caught up in the two. Selflessness Selflessness is a great big myth. Anything you do, any movement in any direction on any level is strengthening the self. This Is Not an Experience This is not an experience. I cannot share it with you. If it is an experience, I can at least try to make you experience it through words, through descriptions, through phrases, through painting and musical compositions and so on. You cannot capture this, contain this or give expression to this. This is outside the range of experience. I don't know if you see the total helplessness of the situation. It Is a Molecular Activity in the Brain Cells The eyes are there like two camera lenses. You don't have to do a thing at all. That is moving the lenses. It is just a reflection of that on the retina -- like a mirror. You do not look into the index card system and say to yourself that it is a mountain. This is what I mean when I say that it is a pure and simple chemical activity, a molecular activity in the brain cells. Nothing else. You don't have a religious mind. There is no mind apart from thought. There is nothing. *** The mind is always closed in. As long as the mind is there, it is that which is preventing you from understanding things. Sensitivity and Total Attention You can talk of total attention. But it is not that. The object that is outside of you is demanding total attention. Not you. When that demands total attention, you cannot even blink. When the eyes stay open for a long time, they become dry.

And you may even go blind. That is a pathological condition. But there is a built-in mechanism. The other glands are activated and they supply the water. The sensitivity is the sensitivity of the senses. As long as you interfere with the senses, that is gone. Religion Is Filth All the religions -- no matter what country they come from -- what all they teach you, all that is false. Because that is not real. That is falsifying you. There isn't anything you can do. But you are still doing. There isn't anything to be done. You listen to some chap talking and to the descriptions of somebody. You open a book and read. There is nothing to be done whatsoever. If that is so, you wouldn't listen to anybody. You wouldn't read any books, except those you need to make a living. You wouldn't touch this stuff. If you touch it, you need a detergent to wash your hands. It is so filthy because it is false. You will have nothing to do with it. You Cannot Be Aware Do you know what you mean by the word aware? Probably you use it in the sense that I think, I feel and so on. It is very important to understand. The dictionary says, the condition of being aware. You cannot be aware of anything. Somebody has fed people with this kind of bum-dole. You have been fed so long on this bunk that anybody saying anything on this probably creates some kind of indigestion there. You want the same thing there. What exactly do you mean by aware? You cannot be aware. There is no you. When there is an awareness there is no you. It is not there. It is aware of itself. It sounds mystical, but it is so. The anger or the feeling is aware of itself. The you separates you from that. That is the movement of thought. There is nothing else other than what you are looking at. *** My emphasis is that awareness cannot be separated from the activity of the brain. It cannot be used as an instrument to understand anything, much less to bring about any change.

The Purpose of My Conversation Questioning is not a hallmark of intelligence. Cessation of questioning is intelligence. You do not seem to realize that it is not possible for you to break yourself free from the methods of thought that prevent you from seeing the limitations of all these concepts and direct experiences. These are all metaphysical questions. I have no answers for any metaphysical questions because I am not thinking metaphysically. I am not thinking in concepts. You may very well ask whether it is possible to use words without concepts. I say it is possible. There is no content to these words. These are not born out of any concept. They are just words. To imagine that there is a state of nonverbal conceptualization is just a myth. The purpose of this conversation is to enable you to break free from the methods of thought as a means to understand anything. *** I cannot help you. You cannot help yourself. This is the situation. I want to push into... Maybe it helps. The Knowledge You Have About the Mind Is the Mind The knowledge you have about the mind is the mind. If it is possible for you to be free from this knowledge, then there is no mind. The mind and the knowledge you have about the mind are one and the same. There may be something like the mind, but you will never know that. It can't become part of your conscious thinking. Wanting Is Thinking Wanting is thinking. As long as you want to do anything -- "I want to understand myself," "I want to be free from this movement of thought..." is thinking. You need thinking just to function in this world but other than that, anything you want is thinking. You get the material for thinking always from somebody. Otherwise, there is no thinking. *** Love is also thinking. "I love my wife," "I love my house," "I love my bank account" -- all that is thinking. That is why I say that it is destructive. If there is any such thing as love, there is no thinking. No relationship. What you call love is just a vibration. If it is not reciprocated, it turns itself into either apathy or hatred.

Monkeys Who Sit Around the Red Ocher I was telling my friends yesterday about the simile we had in one of our books. Those who go to listen to spiritual discourses, those who read books of a religious nature, and those who are looking beyond for something are like the monkeys who sit around the red ocher trying to warm themselves. You know what red ocher is. It is red in color, just like flame, but there is no warmth. There isn't anything that you can get from any religious or spiritual discourses. What I have been trying to point out to those that come to listen to me and care to listen to me is that there is nothing to achieve, nothing to accomplish, and nothing to attain. What is it that you want? And what is it that you are searching for? That is my question. If you are searching for anything, if you want anything, then the first thing you must do is to throw away lock, barrel and stock and book, bell and the candle, the stuff you are hanging on to. You have to throw the whole lot into the cocked hat. Otherwise, there isn't any chance for you to be yourself. If you follow any path -- it doesn't matter what that path is -- it is leading you astray. It is putting you on the wrong path. If you make anything out of what I have been saying, then you are lost, body and soul. And, if there is a God, out of sheer mercy He should save you all and save you from me and persons like me. One thing I make very clear: I am not here to liberate you at all. What is it that you want to liberate yourself from? You are trying to ask for a thing which you have. Burning of Thought Is Energy Burning of thought is energy. That is life. Combustion of thought. Another kind of energy is created by the will: the thought sphere, the antenna. Sensations are also thoughts. Anger is energy. You will never be free from thoughts. Alchemy is burning of thought. Since I don't know what I am saying, I say I am not telling you the same thing as the "Old Man" [J. Krishnamurti]. What I am saying is not the product of thinking. These words are just coming out. I am describing the state of being. It requires a tremendous courage to be yourself.

There Is Nothing to Do As long as you ask yourself the question, "Why not me? Why should this happen to somebody else?" there isn't any chance of your making it. I have to use the words "making it," because you are all trying to make it -- whatever it is you want to make. It's a thing which you cannot reach or make -- [it's not a] reachable or gettable thing. All this search -- the search for this non-existent thing, that thing called `enlightenment' seems futile to me. And the futility of this search is what I have been trying to communicate to those that come to see me and care to listen to me. I also explain that the so-called enlightenment, self- realization, God-realization, or what you will, is a pure and simple physical and physiological state of being. It is just the pulse, beat and throb of life. There is nothing to do. You are all the time interested in doing something. That is the one thing where you don't have to do a thing. If you can be that, just be that, you are in that state. You are not in my state or somebody else's state. That is your state. That is the natural state. That is the way you are all functioning. What prevents that to give expression to it is this movement of thought. You are all thinking about it. That is the thing which you can never capture through thinking. On Art and Artists She is a painter. She can understand what I am trying to point out. If she wants really to paint how you look like, she will never be able to do that. She is projecting the idea. She has abstracted from the object that is there: "This is probably the way the person is like...." So, she is putting the idea or abstraction of what she is looking at onto the canvas and she says, "This is the picture." So, she cannot -- if she were a real artist -- she will never be able to paint or make a portrait of him. It is impossible. That's the real artist. These are not the artists -- not these people who put you on canvas. These are just technicians. I am sorry. So, there is no such thing as an artist at all. He is just a technician. He or she has learned the technique of painting. They are just technicians, artisans, like the carpenters, masons, etc. Your Life Is Centered Around Eating

Q: I think that your talking carries your message. U.G.: No. The talking is always emphasizing that there is no message. That is the talking. If that is what you call a message, then yes. The message is that there is no message. Q: Is there any conscious effort on your part in giving expression to.... U.G.: How can there be any conscious effort? Whatever comes out of me is the expression of that state. There is no conscious effort at all. I am not conscious of anything at any time except when there is a need for it. Q: There is this Charvaka Siddhantam [the Charvaka doctrine] -- that you have only to eat and be merry. U.G.: ... and borrow money and never repay. The Charvaka emphasizes the reality of the world. Here he is [sounds] something like a revisionist. But I say this reality which you have taken for granted is not so real as it appears to be. Quite the opposite. I am not recommending that you should drink, eat and be merry. Q: Do you mean to say that anything one does is a waste of time? U.G.: Eating is not a waste of time. The whole of your life is centered around eating, Sir! Your working there in the office for eight hours [a day] and making money -- the whole thing is centered around eating. Your education, your marriage also -- so that somebody could cook for you, your children -- so that they can maintain you in your old age -- everything is the extension of the same activity. Q: All activities, then, are for the sake of nothing but eating.... U.G.:That's all. How much can you eat? Why do you want such a huge bank balance? You want your children, great grand children -- all of them to be secure. Ultimately your house, your food, your pleasures -- that is all you are concerned with. "Be Selfish and Stay Selfish" Is My Message I am not saying anything against your bank balance or concern for yourself. I want you to do that [keep them]. Man is always selfish and will remain selfish as long as he practices selflessness. I have nothing against selfish people because that is a reality. I don't want you to talk about selflessness. That has really no basis at all. "Tomorrow" you will be a marvelous man. When tomorrow arrives you push it to day-after-tomorrow, or next life. But until then you will stay selfish. I have never said to anybody, "Don't be selfish." "Be selfish and stay selfish," that is my message. Wanting enlightenment is

selfishness. Charity is selfishness. "Divine Despair" -- an Involvement The change is only tomorrow. You can't do anything about that. When tomorrow arrives you push to day-after-tomorrow, next life. That is where this Existentialism comes into the picture. It creates a despair in you. If you are really interested in bringing about change, you will find that you cannot really do anything. The absurdity of wanting to change dawns on you. On that foundation they have built this tremendous structure of thought called despair. There are two schools of thought -- religious and atheistic. J.P.Sartre, the French writer, belongs to the latter one. They also talked of divine despair. It is always related to hope. One cannot exist without the other. Hope of things changing for the better, hope of finding some guru who can enlighten you. Q: Is it possible to do anything without any involvement? U.G.: It is possible. That means there is no relationship at all. All relationships are based on involvement. There are only temporary relationships as with your landlord. They are purely temporary. Q: We get involved unfortunately with everything we do. If I marry I get involved. If I don't marry, I get involved. U.G.: To practice non-involvement is meaningless. You are just not involved. That's all. There is no emotional content in the involvement. I have neither rights nor duties. Your Approach You can never say anything about what I am saying. If there is to be any understanding about what is being said here, it must express itself there. Then you will not talk about me. You will not explain me to somebody. You will explain yourself. That will be something new, something radical, something extraordinary. The ideal situation should be not to remember these things, not to recapitulate things, not to discuss these things with yourself or with somebody or ruminate. You just walk out. You will never come back. If you listen to me year after year, you are only clarifying your thoughts. It is useless. If you go out without recalling anything that is talked about, that would be the best thing. Don't recall anything. Can you do that?

They Interest Me ...Sometimes I read the Time magazine. Even there I am not involved. I am not involved with what I am reading. I don't even know what I am reading sometimes. It is very strange: when I read crime fiction, the suspense doesn't interest me at all. I am not involved with the build up of suspense. Just read the sentences and action ... somebody kills somebody else.... That is why I see mythological movies: Hanuman flying across the ocean and carrying Sanjeeva Parvata, his tail -- those are the things that interest me. I read Chandamama -- interesting stories. Comic stuff. Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse -comic strips interest me. You Are Very Safe, You Can't Blast Me U.G.: What I am saying will create and intensify the neurotic situation there. Don't listen to me. Fortunately you have a very thick skin. Nothing is going to penetrate that. You are safe. Gowdapada provides the gloves, the Bhagavad Gita provides a coat jacket. Brahmasutras provide a leather bullet-proof trousers. So, you are safe. Q: You are condemning whatever has been said before. Don't you think you may also be condemned and blasted... U.G.: If you have the guts, I will be the first person to salute you. You can't do that because you are relying upon the Gita and the Upanishads -- not upon yourself. If you have the guts, you will be the only person who can make what I am saying false. You don't have to say that. I myself am saying that what I am saying is false as far as you are concerned. A Gowdapada could do it but he is not here. You are reading and repeating what Gowdapada had said. It is a worthless statement as far as you are concerned. Q: It is a hopeless situation. U.G.: The situation is not hopeless. You want to be in that hopeless situation because you don't want to be free from selfishness, from fear, jealousy, envy, etc. The hope is in selfishness, the hope is in greed, in anger, in jealousy, and not in the practice of opposites.

You Don't Want This Anything I do to help you would be adding to your misery, that's all. You add one more misery to those you already have, by listening to me. To that extent it is doing no good to you. *** Freeing yourself from any one of these things is the end of you. Please, in your interest, out of compassion I am telling you: this is not what you want. This is not something you can make happen. It is not in your hands. Whomsoever it chooses, it hits him. If you really want moksha that can happen now. Everybody will attain moksha just a few minutes, or hours as the case may be, before the black van arrives to reduce the body to ashes. What you want you can get elsewhere. "Go to the temple, go around the tree, hang from the tree. Repeat this mantra and put on ashes." Then somebody comes along and says, "Do this and give me a week's wages of yours." Some other fellow comes along saying, "Don't do all that. What I am saying is more revolutionary: be choicelessly aware," and then builds schools, organizations and tantric centers.... Why Do I Talk? My dialogue has no meaning at all. You may very well ask me why the hell I am talking. I assure you that it is not at all in the nature of self-fulfillment in my case. What I am doing is not a motiveless thing. Your coming here creates a sort of motive. I feel that I must help you, that you are suffering, that you want some answers to your questions. There is a temporary motive. It is to make clear that there is nothing to understand. Why Stop the Past? Why should you stop the past from interfering with the present? You have been brainwashed by all those holy men, gurus, teachers and the so-called enlightened people that the past should die, should come to an end. "If you attain this, life would be hunky-dory -- full of sweetness." You have fallen for all that romantic stuff. If you try to suppress the past and try to be in the present, it will drive you crazy. You are trying to control something which is beyond your control.

It is not only your past. It's the entire past, entire existence of every human being and every form of life. It is not such an easy thing. It is like trying to stop this flow of the river through all those artificial means. It will inundate the whole thing. What is it that you can do? Anything you do in any direction, at any level, is perpetuating that. It's Meaningless to Ask the Meaning of Life U.G.: Why talk of meaning of life? Why do you want to mystify? You are here somehow. There may not be any meaning. You obviously see no meaning in life. Everything you do seems absolutely meaningless. Q: There must be some goal, aim.... U.G.: The moment the baby is born the goal is to survive -- that is the instinct. To feed itself, survive and reproduce one like itself. That seems to be the way of life. Life is expressing itself, that's all. The body is responding to the stimuli -- the pulse, beat and throb of life. When those things stop, then what you call clinical death takes place. But life is still continuing, but not in the way you want. The form disintegrates into the constituent elements and that becomes the basis for another form of life. Anyway, that is no consolation to you because the instrument you are using to understand the meaning of life is interested only in continuing. Samskara Samskara is conditioning. Tradition is another word for it. That is what you are, what you call you. You cannot change it. Modify it and it continues. The whole thing is pathological. You separate the pathological and psychological. But actually there is only the pathological. Samskara is pathological conditioning. Conditioning Is Intelligence It is not possible for you to be without conditioning. No matter what you do, you are conditioned. The unconditioning that the spiritual gurus are talking about in the market place is a bogus affair. You will find out. Anything you do is conditioning. What you have to be free from is the desire to be free from conditioning. Conditioning is intelligence. This conditioning I am talking about is happening in a different way -- not the ideations and mentations.

Belief Belief is an extension of yourself, not an abstraction. It is like the habit of drinking or smoking. The more you try to stop it, the stronger grows the habit. You talk of faith when you are not sure. Belief -- where is the need for faith? When belief is not producing the results you expect of that, you introduce what is called faith. You must have faith in that belief. That means hope. Morality Only a man who is talking of moral things is the one who can be immoral. Since there is no such thing as immorality for me, I do not preach morals. That's all. I cannot take any moral position. The one who talks of morals and devotion is a humbug. Religious Business The whole religious business is nothing but moral codes of conduct. It is a social thing -- nothing religious about it. There is no difference between the policeman and the religious man. The religious man puts the policeman inside you. It is more difficult to handle the policeman inside you. You can corrupt the policeman out there. Cultures Create a Lopsided Situation All these cultures, oriental or occidental, have created this lopsided situation for man and turned him into a neurotic individual. For example, kindness -- in the very nature of things it is not possible to emphasize only kindness and selflessness. Violence is part of nature. You have to kill something to survive. One form of life lives on another form of life. But you have condemned killing. Our culture has emphasized the one and only kindness. That is why this suffering of man, tremendous sorrow for man, because he is trying to have the one without the other.

Pleasure and Pain Both extremes -- pleasure and intense pain -- are painful for the body. The response is the same as far as the body is concerned. The body has no independent existence, as it is not separate from what you call pleasure or pain. The vibrations may be different. The intensity of each vibration may be different. You demand a particular sensation. So you divide them -- good and bad. Falling Asleep When there is great suffering and depression, you go to sleep. You fall asleep. It is nature's way of taking care of the situation. It's the same with doing the Gayatri Japa. Since you can't stop doing that you go to sleep. ...Why do you smoke cigarettes? It also does the same as Ram Nam. Having a glass of beer or a cigarette is the same as repeating Ram Nam. You attach significance to Ram Nam. Bliss and the Body The body is interested in its survival and reproducing one like itself. The only way it can reproduce itself is through the use of thought. So thought is very essential for the survival of the living organism. The body is not interested in spiritual activity or psychological activity. None of the spiritual experiences are of any value to the body. On the other hand, they create a tremendous strain. The bliss, beatitude, love, compassion -- all those that the religious man had placed before us are only adding to the strain of the body. Deep Sleep and Turiya Why are you talking of deep sleep? If there is any such thing as deep sleep, it is not possible for any individual who is in deep sleep to know anything about that. So, don't talk about deep sleep. Deep sleep is the death of the whole body -- not the fancy dying to your yesterdays. The body goes through what is called a clinical death at the moment when there is deep sleep. At that moment there is no body there. The body may or may not come back from that deep sleep. If, due to some strange chance, it comes back to life and is able to renew itself, the whole life -- genetically programmed life -- is

there. After this deep sleep there is no more sleep for the body. *** You are talking of the turiya state where there is no division. Do you know what you are talking about? All your sadhana is the very thing that is creating the division there. Through knowing you think, you will become. Maybe that fellow who talked about it was in a state of bliss. What good is that? If you experience that, it is false. If you touch the man, it is false. The atman is created by that junk Mandukya Upanishad. You don't have to get drunk to understand sobriety. You Have to Be Saved from the Very Idea That You Have to Be Saved You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. If it has to happen, it has to happen now. The chance is here, now, not tomorspiritual matters is a candidate for the lunatic asylum. The line of demarcation between the mystic and the madcap is very thin. This one madcap is a clinical case and the other is on the way. When You Know Nothing When you know nothing, you say a lot. But when you know something, there is nothing to say. Experiencing the Body This body, you see, whose body is it? I have no way of saying to myself, "This is my body." I have no way of directly experiencing this body for myself. Not experiencing funny little things called separation of the body -- that is a neurological disorder. Many people have experienced the separation of their body. A neurological disorder can bring about the separation of the body -- as if you are something different, you experience your own body. That is not what I talking about. I cannot separate myself at all, because there is nothing here to separate myself from. Who Is Crazy?

There was a psychiatrist, a leading psychiatrist, who came to see me in Marseilles. We talked for hours and hours and days. He wanted to be with me all the time. He was one of the top notch psychiatrists and psychologists. One day I think he remained with me for 24 hours. He talked, talked and talked. "This is a textbook case, a mental case, you know. I should put you in the hospital for the way you talk," he said, "but there is one question I really don't know, whether I am insane or you are insane." So he left his job after that encounter with me. Luckily he had some other degree. He had specialized in tropical medicine and left psychiatry. "What I am doing in the hospital is something terrible," he said. He went away because he thought that if he had remained with me for long he would go crazy. I never saw him again. About God and Prayers To have only pleasure without a moment of pain is just not possible. That is why you have invented enlightenment, eternal happiness, God, ultimate pleasure. What is that quotation, "When you talk to God, it is called prayer, and when God talks to you, you are called crazy." All your interests are materialistic. Why do you pray to God? What do you want him to give you? Why should he? It is like the man who loses in his business. Somebody else is gaining, like in the stock market. On whose side should God be? How many millions of gods have you invented! We have seventy crores of gods. Double the number now. We have to find new animals for their vehicular movements. The old species are extinct now. How can such a God who is supposed to be all merciful answer your prayers? That God is a crook. If he wants you to pray to give you whatever you want, something is funny there. He should give to everybody without prayer. The one who prays gets the goodies and the one who doesn't pray, like me, loses everything. What kind of God is he!

Introduction It was in the first years of my acquaintance with U.G. Prior to 1973, for four years, U.G. and Valentine had been coming every winter to Bangalore and staying there for three or four months at a time. In 1973 U.G. wrote to me suggesting that I should look for a permanent residence for them, and thus avoid having to find a house each time they visited Bangalore. Henry, a friend of U.G.'s from England, had a house and a business office in Bombay, and U.G. and Valentine had been guests in their house ever since they started visiting India after the Calamity. However, Henry's business in Bombay had closed and U.G. needed another place to stay. Henry felt that U.G. should not be inconvenienced, so he offered three hundred pounds a year to U.G. for accommodations elsewhere. This was the same amount of money he had been giving to Sri Anandamayi Ma and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Ashram. U.G. suggested that we should use those funds to pay for the new house in Bangalore. My friend Sivaram showed me a new three story-house called Sastri Sadana in Basavanagudi, facing the Anjaneya Temple. The construction of the house was nearing completion. After talking to the owner, Mr. Viswanatha Sastri, I wrote to U.G. describing the location and other details of the house. I offered to rent the house if he wanted me to. A reply came at once asking me to go ahead. Later, Valentine told me that U.G., on one of his morning walks the previous year, happened to notice the same house while it was under construction. Apparently, he already had the feeling that they two would be living in that house, long before he had any idea that I would rent it for him. After receiving my letter in Switzerland, he even described to Valentine the surroundings of the house in minute detail. I was surprised to hear this from her. For a person like U. G. who says, "If a thought enters my head, it has to take effect," this coincidence is nothing extraordinary. But for someone like me, who does not observe events such as these often, they are indeed marvelous. U.G. makes fun of me for saying such things. He says, "Chandrasekhar is writing a book of all the miracles and marvels that I have never performed." One day, Julie heard this and said smiling, "Chandrasekhar himself is a miracle. What's wrong with writing about your miracles?" How true! When I look back and reflect on whatever happened to me after U.G. entered my life, my whole life looks like a marvel.

In those days, every word that U.G. uttered sounded wonderful. It was child's play for U.G. to upset ancient truths and demolish, in a second, beliefs which seemed sacred and precious. U.G. made statements such as: Liberation means total extinction. It means the extinction of 'you' as you know yourself and as you experience yourself. Why would anyone desire such a thing? Bliss, wisdom, permanent happiness, jivanmukti, rebirth -- all such ideas are all stories concocted by you. Mere illusions. It's a waste of time to seek such nonexistent things. When we heard such pronouncements of U.G., the ground under our feet which we so trusted seemed to cave in. All our illusions were destroyed and we tried to run away from ourselves in fright without ever looking back. Is there any way out? All this -- the incessant striving and search -- is all this a waste of time? No. There is one solace. That is U.G. himself. If he weren't as he is, there would be no need to write any of this. In the early days of my association with U.G., I collected much information about U.G. with the intention of writing his biography. I kept a journal believing that it would be useful for this purpose some time later. "Why do you want to tell my story?" asked U.G. one day. "You are a unique product of human history. Everyone must know about you." "How has this been of use to you? How did your acquaintance with me all these years help you?" I didn't expect such a straight question from U.G. I kept pondering for awhile. "If it didn't help you, it's an illusion to think that it would help someone else," U.G. said, brushing aside my good intention. It was hard to figure out what U.G. meant by 'being of use.' "What I am saying is that there is nothing to understand, and there is no need to understand. If you get the 'hang' of this, you will never want to see my face again. Not only that; you won't go to anyone else either, seeking the meaning of life. That will be the end of your search," said U.G. That is what U.G. meant by [his teaching] being "useful." Was there no other usefulness, then? The same question haunted me even after I returned home that night. That night was the holy night of Siva Ratri. It was truly the Siva Ratri (it is customary to keep a watch on that night). I still remember giving form to thoughts which arose in my mind that night. Thus twenty years ago I resolved that if I ever published U.G.'s biography, I should include these two poems: I

You say there is no faith, no mind You do not accept a single teacher You reject Siva and his powers You teach us to see ourselves as Siva You stress that release is empty You forbid practices vehemently You smile at me in pity when I ask you how I will attain that State I wrote your story in Telugu, who knows how defective it is With this I give myself to you Please accept this gift, U.G. II You loosened my worldly bonds and formed my character When everyone made fun of me you stood by me as my shadow When all those I trusted let me down You held me by my hand and took me to the shore When my life was dreary you gave me a new one. You patted me on my shoulder, gave me strength and made me stand like a man I salute you and your magnificence. October 15, 1964 was an unforgettable day in my life. That was the day when I first met Mr. Chalam(1) who was firmly implanted in Arunachala. It was the day when my friendship through correspondence, which began in my student days, took me in my nineteenth year into his presence. I said to him incidentally, "I sometimes feel like writing something." Chalam looking steadily into my eyes asked, "For whose sake?" I was stunned. I had never asked myself that question. True, whom should I write for? For others or for myself? After a while Chalam spoke again, "'Is it just for ourselves that we write, because we can't live without writing?' -- That question must keep arising till we feel that way." Exactly 28 years later I feel that I have the right answer to that question.

Ever since I made friends with U.G., Chalam and Nartaki shared my enthusiasm, my joys and sorrows and vibrated with me. Chalam is no longer with us. Nartaki has settled down in Arunachala. When a draft of what I wrote about U.G. was read to him, Chalam nodded his head in satisfaction and said, "Good." I was amazed at myself. Chalam talked about U.G. in every letter he wrote to me in those days. Chalam travelled to Bangalore to see U.G. year after year, disregarding his own ill health. Because U.G. noticed something special about Chalam, he travelled to Arunachala when Chalam was on his death bed. This pleased Chalam and other inmates of Ramanasthan (the house where Chalam lived in Tiruvannamalai). Here are some of Chalam's letters to me: i. Arunachala January 4, 1973 Chandrasekhar: I was happy to read your letter. Although I never had any such experience, I can picture how great it would be when a saint's love alights on us and mingles with us intimately. [People] living here with 'Shau" [Chalam's daughter Sowris who was a devotee of Sri Ramana Maharshi. Chalam had dedicated himself to Iswara (God) who revealed himself to Sowris in 1951 and began working through her.] lack the proper perspective [in understanding their relationship with her]. They suffer too much from their loving familiarity. I suppose that Sri Krishna deluded people without letting them know who he really was. I wish you would make a recording of your days and nights with U.G. Perhaps it is difficult to write from such a perspective. With the blessings of Iswara, Chalam ii. Arunachala January 10, 1973

Chandrasekhar: Your letter is exciting. Don't hesitate [in what you are doing]. Iswara is getting a great deed done through you. It's enough if you remain as an instrument. Shau is conveying this suggestion to you. You should put him [U.G.] in a [talking] mood and put a tape recorder in front of him. It doesn't matter in what language he speaks. If you first record what he says, then we can think of the rest. My idea is that you should record every day whatever is happening there, just as in the book Day by Day with Bhagawan and just as M. recorded the Daily Routine of Paramahamsa [in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna]. I know it is difficult to do that. I tried to do the same in Ramanasthan. But I was unable to. Unless orders come from above, these things are not possible for ordinary men like you and me. However it may be, a great relief in these matters is that there won't be any regret that 'we couldn't do them' , because these matters are not in our hands. The title U.G. suggested is very good. What couldn't be done if he wishes it. I feel that we are on the brink of exciting times. So be it. We too will follow you from here jumping and hopping .... With Iswara's blessings, Chalam *** It was December 1976. 3 O'clock in the afternoon at Secunderabad railway station. Sri Sripada Gopalakrishnamurti came running just as our train for Bangalore was scheduled to leave in half an hour. He had the draft of U.G.'s biography that I had written. Handing it to me he said, "It's great. But you must collect more details of U.G.'s life," and gave me a copy of the book he wrote on Sri Jillellamudi Amma. "Have you ever seen Amma?" I said I hadn't. What I had heard about her before was through Chalam. "You must meet her. I think U.G. and Amma are the two great teachers of today. I feel that their teachings are the same. Somehow we must arrange for these two masters to meet." It was wonderful to see Mr. Sripada's face glow with enthusiasm and joy as he was saying this, regardless of his advanced age. However, he passed away without his wish being ever fulfilled. I heard that year, when U.G. was staying in the Oasis School in Hyderabad, Sri Sripada had several discussions with U.G. regarding death and the afterlife. The picture of Mr. Sripada bringing the manuscript of U.G.'s biography to the train station was firmly imprinted in my

mind. In writing U.G.'s story, My friend Vazir Rahman helped me to steer away from the traditional style of writing, and polish the writing somewhat by urging me to render U.G.'s words into simple and clear Telugu. I still remember the days of our spending hours together in Kodambakam. Our common interests were Chalam and U.G. We also listened to music when we were bored. That was in 1976 when I was going through an orientation course in the Indian Institute of Technology in Madras. We two used to meet every weekend. In March 1980, the article I wrote on U.G. was published in the Sunday Supplement of Andhra Prabha Daily. I sent a clipping of that article to Vazir. Here is part of what Vazir wrote about that article: Madras March 17, 1980 Dear Friend: I have your kind letter and the press cutting. I read the article carefully twice. You know how I am -- I am never satisfied easily. I always find something lacking in what I read, if it doesn't come close to my own ideas. Your effort and the interest you have shown in your article are evident. It looks good to a degree. But if you ask me my final opinion, I would say that you should polish it some more. Another thing. Philosophers like U.G. use language in an ingenious way. They wield unimaginable meanings through their words. If they use language in so many nuances, it means that their language is alive. Notice that neither U.G. nor J.K. use language artificially. They can express any complex idea in colloquial language and in a conversational style. I feel that the live quality of their language is the essence of their ideas. Please review your essay keeping in mind what I said above. You have moved away from a conversational style to an artificial language loaded with heavy Sanskrit. As a result, instead of being lively, your writing has become heavy and acquired the style of a philosophical lecture. I am writing all this just so you won't fall into this sort of pitfall when you write your larger originally contemplated book. Yours, V.R. Vazir Rahman passed away in 1983, before he ever could see how many other big defects slipped into my larger work. He sent me a copy of his poetic work Sahasi as soon as it was published. In it are included poems -- "Sport," "At the End" --

inspired by U.G. When U.G. heard the paragraph Vazir wrote about him at the end of the book, he said, "He summed it up very well." This is all -- nothing remains. It has to happen. One early dawna red-tailed bird drinking oil. Suddenly it must fly into emptiness. That's all -- at the end, nothing remains. You flew singing thus Vazir! The Daring One! You left me here alone. Where did you go tonight? To the other shore? What is there? A big nothing (Lit. Donkey's Egg)!* * * How many changes this biography has gone through before it is finally ready for publication! How many colors and forms it has assumed! For some years I fell into lethargy along with my work. I walked with weak feet for some time, and then I ran as though the world was collapsing. Whatever I was going through, the unknown force called U.G. has been supporting me like a strong pillar. 2 A bonfire.... It was the night of September 13, 1992, Yercaud. The world didn't know yet that U.G. is staying in an abandoned house in a remote area, in Yercaud, India. Can anyone imagine a better heaven on earth than Switzerland? What can one say about the fact that U.G. now fixed his residence in this country in Yercaud near Salem, abandoning in one moment his 28-yearlong association with Switzerland and the garden-like valleys of the Alps in Gstaad-Saanen? It is not because he lacks the economic means to satisfy his needs in Switzerland. When he consents to stay, there are innumerable friends who can arrange for royal comforts in a moment's notice. Then why is he coming to Yercaud? What's there for him on this mountain? He could at least stay in Bangalore. No, apparently there is no place for him there either. The day before arriving in Yercaud, the visage U.G. manifested in Purnakutee (our residence in Bangalore) reminded one of Siva at the scene of Daksha's sacrifice. All things which belonged to U.G. in Purnakutee were moved to Yercaud. Things collected over many years -- files, photos, video and audio tapes -- all of them were moved at U.G.'s insistence. He caused a bonfire in my heart: I used to cherish these objects every day, considering them to be U.G.'s archives. He trampled ruthlessly on my devotion. He sold the benches and almirahs in my own presence. He scattered everything without giving me a moment's time to realize what was going on. It's all over. Nothing is left for me. All my dreams are shattered. Will Bangalore remain only a past nightmare? Why? Why is

this happening? It's useless to try to find the meaning behind U.G.'s actions. It is perhaps his intention not to leave for later generations even a trace of his coming into this world. Nothing must remain. U.G. is very clear that no one will benefit from collecting memorabilia and keepsakes pertaining to him. In a Doordarshan interview with U.G., Deepak Vohra asks him: "U.G., I have one final question: How do you imagine the world should remember you after five hundred years?" U.G.'s reply is unique in world history: "I will feel blessed if the world burns away with my body all the memories and memorabilia pertaining to me." U.G., you are your own equal. There has been and will be no one like you in this world. As I was sitting in the living room of the building in Yercaud, my mind became restless and chaotic. My mind was dreading that something untoward will surely happen. There was a heavy wind blowing outside the bungalow. It was penetrating through the closed door spaces and striking my spine. Murty, U.G.'s handyman, was kindling the fires in the fireplace. Murty had let go of his entire Bangalore life and had dedicated himself to U.G.'s service. U.G. was sitting leaning against the wall. Whenever the fire glowed in the fireplace, U.G.'s face glowed red with it. Other friends in the room -- the Major, Prabhakar and Suguna, my wife -- all sat scattered on the floor with arms around their legs. Everyone looked pale. Mahesh sat on my right side leaning against the wall and looking pitifully at me. The scene looked like Yama's court ready for a trial. In the middle of it I sat with closed eyes like a sacrificial goat at the altar. "Why can't Chandrasekhar understand? An ashram-like atmosphere can't grow around me," roared U. G. Mahesh sat up collecting himself. "Neither my tapes nor books nor letters must be in anyone's control. I am going to return all those photos to those who have taken them. Nothing must remain after me. I won't let even Chandrasekhar know where I am and what I am doing. It's all over. After Valentine's death, everything is disintegrating." A flame flared in the fireplace when some of the kindling caught fire. A loud crackling sound of a piece of firewood. U.G.'s white clothing. U.G.'s body shone like a flame covered with snow. Mahesh said after a little while, "U.G. I couldn't have written your biography if Chandrasekhar had not collected all of the correspondence and kept it in one place. That was necessary." "Who benefits from those biographies? I said this before. Autobiographies are pure lies. And biographies are double lies. O.K. you wrote something. But what is he doing? Why should he collect all these? To burn them with me when I die?" U.G.'s eyes were showering coals on me. The fire in the fireplace seemed cooler. There was a conflagration in myself. There was

an oven in my heart. Mahesh looked like an executioner from Yama. My body trembled when I realized why this soldier holding a drawn sword and waiting for a wink of the eye from the master had come from Bombay. U.G. said again, "Why do you write letters to everyone informing them that I am here? Why do you hesitate to say 'I don't know where U.G. is,' to anyone who asks for me? The other day Julie called me on the phone in Bangalore. I told her, 'There is no place here for even Chandrasekhar and Suguna. What makes you think that I will let you stay?'" God, what is going to happen? You dragged me here to show me this terrible form? It's all going -- all my hidden fears, endless deluded hopes, colorful dreams, the beautiful dreams I had made up about my future -- all of them were being shattered. They were all burning away. It was not U.G. in front of me. It was an active volcano on fire. Near it were solid rocks melting like lumps of wax. The tears in my eyes were evaporating before they trickled down. "Chandrasekhar is the cause of all these miseries," U.G.'s voice sounded like thunder in the sky. Far away, the bells of the Convent of Carmel rang, as if they were warning me, "These are your last moments, get ready." The crime I had committed knowingly or unwittingly, the emotions that had been mingled with my blood, the flaw of considering U.G. as my own, that he was my life outside of me, my subliminal hope of becoming the high priest for the temple of U.G.'s teaching -- all passed through my mind clearly. The 'criminal' in me drooped his head. "Whatever has been going on so far cannot continue any more. It must all end here and now. This moment." The swing of his hand gathered strength and his resounding voice shook the bungalow. The executioner's sword flashed in the light of the dying fire. "Here, now, this moment. It has to end now, Chandrasekhar!" Mahesh's howl mingled with my death scream. Slowly the fire in the fireplace died down. The flames that shone red settled down in the ashes. The sky for once breathed in relief. The assembly came to a close. All the witnesses exited as though they were innocent. U.G. went into his room leaving me to my fate. My mind had never known such a terrible onslaught. Although I lay on my bed, I could not sleep. A series of thoughts whirled around like snakes in my mental snake pit. I got up from my bed and walked outside. 'Blackie', the dog, saw me and crawled around me wagging her tail. What had happened that night? How come the world was still sleeping so peacefully? To whom should I tell of my turmoil and my internal struggle? Why was I bothered about all this? Who is this U.G.? Who am I? What is the connection between us? True, what is he to me? What am I to myself? I was walking to the edge of an abyss in the dark. I could see, four thousand feet below, the city of Salem flickering with lights, as though the sky had with all its stars collapsed on the ground .

I asked U.G. on the night of my arrival in Yercaud: "Why doesn't the truth of your words apply in our lives? Our minds can see reason and consent to the logic [in what you say], but we lag behind in carrying it out in action. Why is that?" U.G.'s answer blasted my brains: "because you are afraid of losing me if those words work. Because of that fear you try to use those words securely, as gloves on your hands, to protect yourselves." Those words of U.G.'s whirled around in my head, "You are afraid of losing me," and I felt as though they were mocking me. It's true: U.G. is my life, my everything. Who is it that still lives after losing U.G.? I? Who am I? I have no alternative: I must solve this puzzle. U.G. is no one to me. There is this connection, this blunt bond that entangles me, and unless this is broken, I am not free. U.G. and I -- the memories I have treasured so much, the memories which I thought were special to both of us, my countless experiences -- if U.G. himself is nothing to me, why should I bother with them? Why should I hoard them? For whom? Never. I should expel all of them. I should tear myself, break myself open, destroy myself, plunder all my memory treasures which I had so carefully hoarded, and scatter them to the dust and the wind. I must stand alone, helpless as a destitute without a past, while all these memories are shamelessly crushed under the feet of every village pig. The sacrifice has started, the serpent sacrifice of Janamejaya. All the serpents, the thought-serpents that have been hiding inside my head, in my blood and in every nerve of mine, must all be dropped into this sacrificial fire. There is no protection for any of them. All of them must be consumed. All my memories must assume the form of letters and be offered in the sacrifice of this book. I don't know how long I stood outside that night, by the side of the abyss, in the dark, under that tree. Utter silence around me. An abyss inside of me and an abyss outside. Utter darkness all around. "Is this all there is to my life?" The question arose in me all of a sudden. "If you let that question arise, then you have no scope to live." No sooner I had heard this than all the darkness disappeared. A cloud curtain crossed the abyss touching me softly. 3 "Why did this U.G. happen to me?" It was September 20 of 1992. Just a while ago U.G. spoke to me on the telephone. I have been waiting for three days for

his call. Just today they installed a new telephone in U.G.'s cottage in Yercaud. "When are you coming here?" asks U.G. "When would you like us to come?" "You don't need to come. You are not needed," says U.G. in a joking voice. "The owner of this house is offering to build a special ashram for me. He says he will call it 'U.G. Ashram'. I vetoed it saying 'Never'." I told him I was going to Hyderabad. "Don't invite my daughter Bharati here." U.G.'s admonition made me smile. What sort of a person is this? Is he a Jivanmukta? Is he an Atmajnani? I was reminded of what Marissa, an Italian friend of U.G., said many years ago. Those were the early days of her acquaintance with U.G. After hearing from her about U.G. and after meeting him, her father apparently said: "Damned be the day you met that man called U.G. Your life will never be the same again." I have no doubt that these words are literally true, not just in Marissa's case, but with everyone who has met U.G. "Why did this U.G. happen to me? It seems as though that I have voluntarily invited the devil into my house at my own expense." There is not a day on which Mr. Brahmachari Siva Rama Sarma, who had undergone tremendous upheavals after meeting U.G., does not wail: "By inviting him [U.G.] to Bangalore, I bought a total disaster for myself." "But isn't that a great blessing? Does that happen to everyone?" some inquire thoughtfully. "On whomsoever I bestow my grace, him I shall rob of all that he has." It's amazing to notice in how many ways and in how many contexts U.G. demonstrates the truth of this statement of his. Be that as it may, the number of Brahmachari's friends such as myself, who regard the "disaster" that happened to him as a great blessing, is increasing day by day. *** 4 U.G. arrives in Bangalore When was it that I met U.G. in Bangalore for the first time? It was long ago, in December of 1969. Even now I am deeply saddened when I think of my condition before I met U.G. What sort of life did I live! I wasn't interested in worldly values. My goal in life was to strive for some undefined spiritual experiences. I was wandering around visiting different gurus and ashrams, listening to their various teachings, and running around ceaselessly with the belief that there was something to be found somewhere. Those were the days when, at last,

there was a respite in Ramanasthan, (my elderly friend Mr. Chalam's residence) in Arunachala presided over by Sowris (Chalam's daughter). I tasted a new life in the compassionate company of the sage Chalam. Those were the days when I dedicated my entire life to the worship of the Lord of Arunachala. Ever since I found my refuge in Chalam in 1964, how many times did I run to Ramanasthan each year! Shau (Sowris) was my revered deity; she was for me the Lord of Arunachala in person. As the devout Prahlada said in the myth of Bhagavata, I longed to stay in the remembrance of the Lord even while drinking, eating, talking, sleeping or engaged in any other activity. Nothing concerned me except my worship of and meditation on the Lord of Arunachala. Extraordinary experiences and visions occurred during my meditation. I felt as if my liberation was close at hand, that there wasn't much more to be striven for, that I had 'crossed the bridge', and almost arrived at the point of selfrealization. What enthusiasm! I had been working at a job in Bangalore. Some friends and I ran the Sankara's School of Culture and a hostel for college students. Not caring about the consequences for my family, which depended for their livelihood on the salary that I earned, I lived in Arunachala that year (1969). A series of letters from my friends and well-wishers trying to persuade me to return to Bangalore did not move me out of Arunachala. When I look back after 27 years, that year of 1969 seems unthinkable even now: how I walked crazily into danger without looking back or ahead, and how many shocks had I experienced! In just two months of my stay in Ramanasthan, I came to realize the extent of my spirituality. I saw how much were my spiritual experiences weaker compared to the strength of my sexual urges. My sexual and romantic passions gradually clouded the presence of the Lord of Arunachala in my heart, where I mistakenly believed I had permanently established Him. This struck a great blow to my ego, which believed that I had become very holy. In a word, my spirituality was quickly transformed into a sexcapade. "The source for both God and sex is the same. As long as you think of God, there is always sex in its shadow," says U.G. I now understand the value of this saying. But in those days I was very confused. "Why am I so deluding myself? The mind which freed itself from so many attractions, why is it pining so much for such a trifle? Is this a test? O Lord, please give me strength. Please get me out of this mire." Just as I was praying thus, I felt that I was sinking deeper into the mire. That evening, I spoke to 'Father' [Mr.Chalam] who was sitting alone: "Father, I want to talk to you about something." Chalam looked at me with attention. A poem from Chalam's work Sudha crossed my mind: "My life came to the point of saying, 'Lady, let me go,'" I quoted without much elaboration. From the little I said that sage of love immediately

understood my condition much more clearly than I had myself. He looked at me intently for a moment and said in a quivering voice, "But you don't have a lady here...." "Yes, I do. That is why I have this torment," I said. There were a few moments of silence. Then Chalam said emphasizing each word: "Present all this precisely to Iswara. He will take care of it. You don't worry." Iswara (God) [is believed to] reside in Sowris, also called Shau. My unshakable faith in the idea that Iswara in person was conducting through Sowris all the affairs [of Ramanasthan] had already been shaken. Regardless of how much I wanted to keep my faith, there was only betrayal and rebellion in me. I had doubts about all my beliefs and all the truths which I had adopted as the foundation of my life. But why should such doubts and aberrations occur in me when I had dedicated myself to spiritual practice, when I had resolved to myself that I had no other goal in life than self-realization? Was this the result of the impressions of my past lives? Must I suppress them? Must I go on battling these phantoms? What was the advantage of that? "Watch Jagadish Bhai. See how carefree he is? He is carefree because he has submitted himself totally to Iswara," said Chalam. Jagadish renounced everything twenty five years ago when he was still only twenty, and like Bhagavan (Sri Ramana Maharshi), wore a loin-cloth and had firmly implanted himself in Arunachala. Only the day before he was complaining, "These kids are shouting saying, 'M.G.R., M.G.R.'I can't meditate in the middle of all this noise. I am even dreaming of the shouting about M.G.R." I was shocked at the manner in which Jagadish complained about his problems. Was that all? Must all that renunciation and spiritual practice come to naught in the face of some noise about M.G.R.? Soon after that I broke away from Ramanasthan and left Arunachala. After almost four months of absence, I returned to this world, to Bangalore, to my usual mechanical life, and to my job, which I managed to retain with friends' help. All those who knew me expressed concern over my welfare, but ridiculed me behind my back. They considered me as sort of crazy and gave me counsel to try and save me. That was a hellish torture. I spent hours alone, sitting on a pile of boulders behind the Ramakrishna Ashram, pondering over the state of my life. My mind was filled with disgust at the very thought of spirituality or spiritual practice. Around that time, when I became tired of Vedanta, the teachings of J. Krishnamurti attracted my attention. His "Commentaries on Living" became my routine reading material. ***

"You put me on a pedestal ...." One morning I was trying to call U.G. on the phone. I hadn't succeeded even after an hour. I was tired of trying, so I hung up the receiver and sat down. Just then the telephone rang. "Hello," said U.G. "Hello U.G., I have been trying your number for half an hour." "We too have been trying on this end. The important thing I wanted to tell you was that our Major got an electric shock while he was ironing clothes a while ago. He yelled so loud that we all thought that he might have died. He is still trembling from the shock. He was ironing my clothes. He squeezed them, dried them and started ironing them. He ignored my request not to do it. He thinks that he will get some spiritual vibrations if he washes my clothes. When I assure him that the only shock he will get is an electric shock and that there are no spiritual vibrations or other vibrations, he still doesn't listen to me." So U.G. goes on. You can't extract spiritual undertones from his words, no matter how much you try. "There are no moral values in what I say; nor is there any social utility. There is no spiritual or religious content either." No matter how vehemently he asserts this, it is hard for us to accept it. How strange! There is no wise man who can listen when U.G. keeps repeating, "I am not a jivanmukta; nor am I an evolved being." People such as Mr. Vedantam Satyanarayana, a friend of U.G., try to pull him into an argument saying, "You say you don't know what state you are in. What you say indicates the Advaita state described in Vedanta texts. If you could just come down to our level and ...." Then U.G. complains pointing out, "Where do you think I live? I live right next to you. You put me on a pedestal, on a height. What can I do?" They do not pay attention. I have been observing this sort of exchange for twenty years, ever since I had met U.G. for the first time. *** David Barry U. G. inevitably comes to mind whenever I see the Vedanta Book House, a book shop in Chamarajapeta in Bangalore. It was in this shop that I first heard of U.G. I know well the owner of the book store, Mr. Ashwattha Narayana. One morning when I went there to see if there were any new books in the store, as if he had been waiting for me, he said "Come in. You came just at the right moment. The gentleman here says he needs books explaining the philosophy of Sri Ramana Maharshi." He introduced me to an American gentleman named David Barry who lived in Ojai, California. We learned a lot

about each other in about ten minutes. The interest Barry showed not only in the Vedanta of Ramana Bhagawan, but also in other Vedanta texts impressed me. "How long have you been in India?" I asked him. "The last time, I came from Switzerland with a great man called U.G.Krishnamurti. But I stayed behind in this country," he replied. When I heard the name Krishnamurti, I mistook it for J. Krishnamurti. "No, no. Not J.K. This man's name is U.G. I do know J.K. pretty well. U.G. is a brand new jivanmukta. If you compare the two, U.G. far surpasses J.K.," said Barry. Then he talked about his acquaintance with J.K. and U.G., and the manner in which U.G. criticized J.K. After listening to all that he said about U.G., I thought he was some disciple of U.G. Some days later, when I had met U.G., our conversation turned to Barry. "He is the only man who is my first and last disciple." I couldn't stop laughing when U.G. spoke this way. My acquaintance with Barry, which started in the Vedanta Book House, did not stop there. I took Barry to the Sankara School of Culture which we ran at that time, and introduced him to all my friends there. All the things which Barry described about U.G. that day interested us very much: U.G.'s Calamity, the strange way in which his senses functioned independently of each other as a result of the chemical changes that took place in his body, the colors that emerged in the places of the Yogic chakras, the visitations of personages such as the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed and Siva, the manner in which he attained naturally the 'half-woman' state (attributed to Siva), nullifying the difference between the male and female sexes, (a state which occurred as a result of a hormonal imbalance in his body), -- when Barry was describing all these in a dramatic fashion, we listened to him with rapt attention. We couldn't believe all the wonderful things that had happened to U.G. Can such things happen to any one in this day and age? Even if they did happen, can such a strange person be a true jivanmukta, if he regarded such unique experiences as natural occurrences and did not give any importance to them? Was the Calamity a real event in U.G.'s life? When did it happen? "The Calamity occurred in the year 1967 on July 9, exactly on his 49th birthday. There is a beautiful place called Saanen in Switzerland. When U.G. sat under a chestnut tree on that day, it happened ," said Barry. "What happened?" "Enlightenment," said Barry. He talked casually as though he was describing a natural event such as a sunrise. How strange! Could enlightenment happen in someone's life as an event like a fruit falling from a tree? Then too, that it

happened on that day, his 49th birthday? Apparently the Kaumara Nadi had already predicted that U.G. would attain selfrealization on his 49th birthday. Barry was an eye witness to all that happened to U.G. after that. "Barry's staying with us in the days of my Calamity was in some ways of great use to us," I heard U.G. state on a later occasion. "I used to have strange visions. 'Vision' not in the sense of seeing something 'out there'. Rather, my whole consciousness, my existence suddenly assumed the form of the Buddha. I was not there. In my place it was either the Buddha or Siva -sometimes it was some women's forms -- with disheveled hair and naked breasts -- even my sex organs were changed. "Just for a moment. The moment I looked at that and asked what it was, the division disappeared. "What is all this? Why is it happening like this? Who are all these forms? There was no fear, only curiosity. Because Barry was there, and because he knew Hindu, Greek, and Chinese myths, he was able to interpret and comment on all these phenomena. He would look for parallels for the things that happened to me in those myths," says U.G. I can never forget the scene of three years later, one morning, when U.G. was prodding this best disciple of his with a stick with thorns on it, threatening him. Barry by nature is slow in doing things, and generally lazy. U.G. does not tolerate any dullness or laziness among the people around him. Indeed, efficiency and promptness are synonyms for U.G. "This machine does not know laziness," maintains U.G., referring to his body. "If your heart gets lazy and stops beating for a few minutes, what will happen to you?" he asks. That day as U.G. was goading Barry for his laziness, Barry's imposing figure was grumbling pitifully, pleading, "Is this how you show your compassion?" while he gave U.G. a frightened look. The scene made us all laugh along with U.G. *** Brahmachariji brings the Brahmajnani After Barry left, all the friends in the hostel talked for a long time about the things they had heard from him about U.G. That same night, about 9 p.m., suddenly Mr. Brahmachari, a spiritual teacher who later became a friend of U.G., appeared outside the hostel. "I don't have much time. I am just arriving from Mysore to tell you of an important event. Tomorrow morning a Brahmajnani is coming to our 'cave'. Take a leave of absence in your offices, come to the Cave and meet him," he summoned. Who is this Brahmajnani that was going to sanctify Mr. Brahmachari's Cave? Normally Brahmachariji did not invite anyone to the Cave.

"He is U.G.Krishnamurti. Everyone calls him U.G." These words of Mr. Brahmachari resounded in my ears. I couldn't believe myself hearing them. "Who? U.G.? The man who recently arrived from Switzerland?" I asked, containing my amazement and excitement with great difficulty. Mr. Brahmachari turned pale: "How do you know him? When did you meet him?" "I have heard about him. But I haven't met him yet. I am going to see him tomorrow morning," I briefly reported to him what had happened earlier with Barry." "So, the publicity has started even before he has arrived in Bangalore. I met him in Mysore. When he told me he was coming to Bangalore, I invited him to the Cave." "What sort of a man did he appear to be when you saw him?" I asked Mr. Brahmachari. "I have no doubt that he is a true Brahmajnani. Wisdom dawned on him in a peculiar way. If you look at his eyes, it is absolutely certain that he is a jivanmukta. No matter how long I observed him, I could not find him blinking. His skin is soft and smooth like silk. Why try to know the taste of the curry when you are going to eat it? You will see him tomorrow." So saying, he left hurriedly. That night I marveled: "What is this? Is this a dream or is it true? Or is this an illusion of Vishnu?" Such was the state of my mind. "I heard about him this morning. And tonight I have this news. Are these events coincidental? Or is this a grace from a mysterious force? Or is this merely my good fortune?" I pondered for a long time. "Tonight is a long night. When will it be dawn?" I laughed at my own craziness and dropped off into sleep... 5 "Where is the glow in my face?" It was October 19, 1992. The Major's Maruti car was racing from Yercaud toward Mysore. The Major and U.G. were in the front seats, and I and Suguna were in the back. U.G.'s innocent question, "Why are we going to Mysore?" caused the Major to laugh. Our friends in Mysore did not know that U.G. was coming there. U.G. had no need to see anyone there. Rather, just because we had wanted to see how this circuitous route to Bangalore actually went, we had started on it. It was 1:00 p.m. by the time we stopped at Chamarajanagar on the way to Mysore. We sat at a small table in a restaurant called Sringar. Although it was an inexpensive restaurant, it looked clean. One of the persons who was sitting at a table next to us was staring rather intently at U.G. The gentleman looked as if he was struggling with the dilemma of whether or not to talk to U.G. At last he got up, walked to U.G. and asked politely,

"Excuse me Sir, I don't know who you are. But I see a glow in your face. What are you?" Indeed, it is not easy to identify a Brahmajnani in crumpled clothes, untidy hair, and with the tired face of someone who has traveled for six hours. The gentleman didn't seem to be satisfied with the answer given to him by U.G. He said, "You are not an ordinary man. I see a great glow around your face. I am an employee in the L.I.C. (Life Insurance Corporation). I am also the President of the Brahma Kumari Sangha." He introduced himself thus and requested U.G.'s address which U.G. gave him. The man's name was Nagaraj. The last look of his while walking away from U.G. told me how deeply he was attracted to U.G. *** "U.G. took away my tiredness...." The car started moving again toward Mysore. On the way, the Major asked U.G. quietly, "Why did that man Nagaraj feel that way when he saw you? He said he saw some glow." "How should I know? I even went into the bathroom and looked at myself in the mirror to see if I would find anything. There was no glow or any such thing. I don't know why he felt that way," said U.G. smiling. We all broke into laughter. "Changing the subject, you made me eat seven dosais (pancakes with potato stuffing) today. I am used to having a nap after my lunch. If I happen to doze off while I am driving, that would be the end of all of us. Whatever suits you...," warned the Major smiling through his thick mustache. U.G. became drowsy after a little while. While the Major and I were talking, U.G. took a short nap and then sat up, awake. U.G. smiled and said, "Lulled by the car's bouncing I fell asleep. I slept on your behalf also." I observed the Major's face when he replied , "Very good, I am happy," and there was not a trace of tiredness in him. I thought that he would want to sleep for a few hours after arriving in Mysore. But, instead, he drove us directly back to Bangalore by 7 p.m. having driven non-stop for 12 hours through heavy traffic. I had never seen the Major drive so long without stopping and resting en route. I congratulated him saying, "How was that possible? You established a new record for yourself." "U.G. took away my tiredness and drowsiness. He said it himself that he slept my share of the sleep too. It's strange. From that moment my tiredness was gone. Otherwise, it would have been impossible to drive 450 kilometers non-stop," said the Major.

We thought of the scolding we would get if U.G. got wind of this conversation. So, instead I included a narrative of the incident in this book. *** Brahmachariji and U.G. The next morning Mr. Brahmachari appeared in Poornakutee, our house in Bangalore. "How come you went to Mysore while I came here from Mysore to see you?" he frowned upon U.G. People call him also Swami Sarma. Usually we all call him Brahmachariji. U.G. and Brahmachariji are both unique. You feel that perhaps Krishna and Arjuna were like this in ancient times. It's commonly believed that the more adoring a devotee becomes the more his thinking powers deteriorate. This doesn't mean that Swamiji is a great devotee of U.G. Nor is he afraid of him. It is typical of Swamiji to fearlessly express himself. It is common for U.G., on the other hand, to tease the Swamiji about the logic of what he says. When these two get together, it is great entertainment for those who gather around them. Nagaraj used to say, "You two are made for each other." I asked Swamiji that morning: "Swamiji, where did you see U.G. the first time? How did you bring him to Bangalore? You must tell me precisely. I must record everything you say permanently in my book. " Brahmachariji and I have known each other for about twenty five years, ever since he started residing in his Cave. Mr. Brahmachari's real name is Siva Rama Sarma. He was brought up in a wealthy family from Mysore. In midlife, he became increasingly detached, and dedicated himself to spiritual life for four decades. He founded the Jnanasram in Bannerughatta. There are facts about him which would amaze even those who knew him merely as the Bannerughatta Swamiji. Only people who know him intimately are aware that he graduated as an M.Sc. in Chemical Engineering and passed the I.A.S. (Indian Administrative Service) examination. As he disliked government jobs, he took a position in the Indian Institute of Technology (in those days Tata Institute) and worked as an assistant professor for some years. All his brothers are millionaires, and they have also been adept in political intrigue. They made their millions no matter what political party was in power, and they always capitalized whenever political power changed hands. U.G. teases Brahmachariji by saying, "Those same qualities your brothers have are active in your blood too." He also mocks at him at times saying, "You don't live like them. Instead, you adopted this sort of life and lost both the worldly and otherworldly

goods." It is surprising to notice Brahmachariji, who would usually react violently to anyone saying derogatory things about him, smilingly accepting U.G.'s heckling, mocking and teasing. "He is finished. After he came to me, he has changed a lot. He has become like a cobra whose fangs have been removed," says U.G. laughing. When he talks about U.G., Swamiji becomes animated, and his anger and emotion express themselves eloquently more in Kannada than in English. It is amusing to see that when U.G. tries to stop him by jokingly saying, "Kannada beda ('No Kannada')," Swamiji always asserted himself with his broken Tamil, "Sariyapocci, iduda venda ('All right, but we don't want this')." *** Brahmachariji invites U.G. "First, Dr. Ramakrishna Rao wrote a letter to me in 1969," recounted Swamiji, as though he was recalling that letter. "He not only narrated the unique happenings that had happened to U.G. He also wrote: 'You haven't met a person like him before in your life. Ordinary terms like Brahmajnani and jivanmukta have to be given new meanings in order to describe this man.' He also sent me a copy of U.G.'s horoscope." Dr. Ramakrishna Rao was a boyhood friend of Swamiji. He was a Professor of Philosophy in Mysore University. Swamiji has a great belief in astrology. He believes, on the basis of his own personal experience, that we can know a person's true character more clearly through an examination of his horoscope rather than from his friends' opinions and accounts of him. He showed the horoscope sent by Professor Ramakrishna Rao to a close friend and well-wisher, Mr. Devudu Narasimha Sastry. Few do not know the name of Mr. Narasimha Sastry in the Kannada region. He is a great scholar. He not only knew well both Kannada and Sanskrit, but was also an astrologer and a devout man. Mr. Sastry's residence was near the Sankara Math in Bangalore, and was also close to the Cave of Mr. Brahmachari. After examining the horoscope of U.G., Mr. Sastry said candidly, "No doubt there is something great about this gentleman. However, company with this man is not beneficial to you. That is all I want to say. The rest is up to you." Brahmachariji was confused. He knew it was useless to ask "Why, or how?" Brahmachariji wailed laughing, "In spite of Mr. Sastri cautioning me so clearly, if I still went to Mysore to see this great man, what could all this be except my fate?" Professor Ramakrishna Rao used to live in Saraswatipuram. Brahmachariji was visiting him there. There was a water tank near his house. Suddenly Brahmachariji saw in a small crowd a man in white pajamas and shirt and a full-statured

foreigner of medium height. "From the description Ramakrishna Rao gave in his letter, I identified the former person as U.G. On the bank of the tank I noticed that U.G.'s chest was more elevated on the left side," he recalled. U.G. took Brahmachariji to Professor Ramakrishna Rao's house, and they talked for quite a while. If the acquaintance which started thus had ended with that meeting, then there would be no need for this story. When U.G. told Brahmachariji that he was thinking of going to Bangalore, the latter invited him to his place. "Ever since I invited U.G. to my Cave, my life has become like that of the person who invited the passing goddess of pestilence to visit his house, " sighed Mr. Brahmachari. *** 6 U.G.'s first visit to Brahmachariji's 'Cave' In December 1969, that morning we all gathered in Brahmachariji's Cave, waiting for U.G.'s arrival. I was anxiously awaiting my first meeting with U.G. There was a big peepul tree in the yard of the Math, and there used to be a two-story house near the tree. All those surroundings have changed now beyond recognition. There is a legend that the head of the Sringeri Pitha, Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Swami used to meditate in an ancient cave under that house. When Sri Vidyatirtha Swami permitted Brahmachariji to live in that Cave, Brahmachariji got a two-story house built on the same rocks and made it habitable. Around 10:00 a.m. a car stopped in the vicinity of the Cave. As soon as I saw the figure clad in white alighting from the car, I had a strange feeling that I was looking at a very familiar person. "That's U.G.," said someone. "Hello," said U.G. touching both Brahmachariji's hands. I looked at him intently. Although he looked simple in his white dress, there was some powerful dignity emanating from U.G. His black hair covered his ears. He had a broad forehead indicating a richness of intellect. His large ears hidden behind his hands, which were trying to arrange his hair, reminded me of a sculpture of the Buddha. His fair complexion seemed fairer in the cool sunshine of December. He appeared almost indistinguishable from the Europeans who were with him. However simple and natural he seemed, there was something strange about him. In his

gestures and movements there was the innocence of a child. Most striking of all were his eyes! Although his lips were smiling, there was an uncanny depth to his eyes. I felt as though I was looking into an abyss, as though I was slipping into the depths of an ocean. I stared at him for a while, spell-bound. As soon as U.G. sat on a stone seat in the Cave, some of the friends in our company were ready to shower him with their questions. "I am tired from traveling. We will talk more when we meet again in the evening," said U.G., avoiding the questions, and making some small talk. Valentine, a Swiss lady who had been U.G.'s friend for many years, however, did not sit still for even a moment. She was walking around the Cave, examining its surroundings as though she were familiar with them. *** There is no moksha, no Jivanmukti, and no Atman Later, I heard U.G.'s voice ringing like a bell as I was climbing the stairs of the Cave. In the library room upstairs about twenty pairs of eyes were riveted on U.G. sitting in a corner. I found room for myself and sat at the threshold of the room on a reed mat. Outside was the cool sunshine of the winter afternoon, and the sound of the peepul tree leaves moving with the wind. "There is no moksha, no jivanmukti, and no Atman. And there is no such thing as self-realization. Those are all lies. There is only the 'natural state'. I don't like to use your terms such as enlightenment, jivanmukti, nirvana, or moksha to refer to this state. Those terms suggest some other meanings. They sound weird to me. When I talk about the 'natural state', it is not the state of someone who has attained self-realization or God-realization. It is not something created through self-effort. This natural state is always living and spontaneous. "This happens to one in a billion, accidentally. It does not result from your effort. It is acausal. And why this natural state happens to that one and not anyone else, I don't know." Q: When did this happen to you? U.G.: In my forty-ninth year. Q:Then are you saying that none of the spiritual practices you did for so many years, that none of the means you adopted, were useful in attaining that natural state?

U.G.: Without a doubt. Not only that. I would say that they were obstacles. I am saying that it is a wonder that the state occurred in spite of my doing all those things. First of all, what is all the search and seeking for? It is your search that takes you away from the natural state you always are in. All your seeking is in the wrong direction. Wouldn't you remain in your natural state forever if your search stopped? It is foolish to try to purify your consciousness through some practices in order to attain the natural state. That consciousness is so pure that all the experiences you consider as sacred and holy are a contamination of it. They are an unbearable filth, intolerable contamination. Once the barriers within your consciousness are broken -- not because of any act of will or volition on your part -- once the flood gates are open, everything will be washed away, all experiences -good and bad, sacred and profane, divine or demonic --, all divine visions, all ultimate states will be washed away from the consciousness. Krishna consciousness, Buddha consciousness, God consciousness, sages, saints and prophets, Jesus, Mohammed, Mahavira, enlightened men, yogis -- all of them must be washed away in that flood. It is only then that consciousness becomes clear. There is a song called "The Saints Go Marching In" in Christian devotional literature. I change it to "The Saints Go Marching Out." Their very existence is filth. When all that is flushed out, when consciousness remains pure and clean, no contamination, no filth will ever touch it again. After that your past will never stick to you, or bother you, and that will be the end of you. While I was listening to U.G.'s words, all the things which Barry told me about, such as the way in which Calamity happened to him, ran through my head. Suddenly, images of Shau (Sowris), and the manifestation of Iswara in her in August 1951, flashed through my mind. There was a commotion in the room -- the group of friends was smothering U.G. with questions. My own mind was filled with questions. What's going on here? What's the truth of the matter? Whom should I trust? Should I believe Shau who says, "There is God. Seek Iswara's refuge from moment to moment." Or, should I believe U.G. who was saying, "God consciousness, Buddha consciousness, extraordinary visions, are all equal to dirt. Until they are all flushed out, consciousness will not become clear." I continued to listen to U.G. while my mind struggled with these thoughts. *** The questioner is the question

U.G.: Why do you ask me such useless questions? "Is there a God? What is the meaning of life? Is there rebirth? What will happen to us when we die?" Why do you torment yourself with such endless questions? As for myself, I have no questions except questions about day-to-day affairs: "What is the way to the Cave of Mr. Brahmachari? When is such and such a plane flight?" Except for such questions, no other questions occur to me. Many great teachers have been answering your questions for centuries. Why are you not satisfied with them? You believe that I am a Brahmajnani and a jivanmukta and you want to know if what I have seen confirms your beliefs. As a matter of fact, all these questions are others' questions, not your own. If there is a question which you can call your own, it won't let you rest for one minute. There is no question apart from the questioner. The two are the same. If the question goes, the questioner goes with it. Because you don't want to come to an end, you hang on to your question forever. That's why you cannot stop the question even if you know there is no answer to it. *** U.G.: Is there such a thing as enlightenment? As far as I am concerned, what is there are only bodily processes. That is the natural state. Your existence is a physiological state, not a psychological transformation. It [enlightenment] is not a mental state of being unconscious one day and conscious the next day. If this natural state ever happens, it will explode every cell, every nerve and every gland. This is a chemical change, a strange alchemy within the body. Unless such an irreversible change occurs, there is no release for the body from the stranglehold of thought. You cannot imagine how deeply, into every cell, thought penetrates throughout the body. *** Q: Why am I not in this natural state you are describing now? U.G.: Because you are trying to understand what I am saying. Through thought and thinking you cannot understand anything. But that [thought] is the only instrument. When that [instrument] cannot be used, and there is no other instrument, what is there to understand? There is nothing to understand. That's what you need to know -- that there is nothing at all to know. Here [in me] that is clear. Nobody knows how that became clear [to me], viz., that there is nothing to know. That's why I am unable to explain it to you. If the understanding that there is nothing to understand, nothing to know, arises in you, then you wouldn't be here with me for one moment. Then you wouldn't go to someone else either.

Your search would stop, forever. *** I listened to U.G. talk about many things to the same group of people in the same room for the next six evenings.. When U.G.talked about the Calamity that happened to him, and told us about the irreversible chemical changes that occurred in his body during the following six days, describing the colors that surfaced on his skin in the places where there are ductless glands [inside the body], Vidwan Seshachala Sarma asked if the marks were still present. U.G. answered: "Many of them have subsided. Look and see if you can see some of them on my back." As he spoke, U.G. removed his shirt and showed his back. We could see some traces of colored bulges in blue and green colors. "That's it. There is no spiritual or metaphysical content in this. This is purely biological and physical." "If the endlessly continuing thought process is cut off even once, even for a thousandth of a second, then thoughts can never be linked again. That break will create tremors throughout the body like a terrible earthquake. Like an atomic explosion it will shake, move and burn every nerve and blood cell in the body. With that the thinker is gone. The senses start functioning independently of each other. From then on all bodily processes are carried on automatically, like a machine. Only the 'you' who you think runs the machine is not there." *** When I heard U.G.'s words, on the one hand I was amazed and astounded, and on the other hand, I had an unknown fear, an uneasiness, an anxious feeling as if the ground under my feet was slipping away. Was there nothing? Were all my hopes for a spiritual life in vain? Were all my endeavors a waste of time? How true is the poem in Chalam's Sudha! It is unwise to go roundin a circle leading nowherefor some unknown,chasing mirageswhich delude us into thinkingthere is something which,if we strive for it,will be revealed.It's a futile waste of an invaluable lifetime. One afternoon, I went to the Cave early before the crowd gathered there. I felt that I must talk to U.G. in person. I could not remain quiet with all the chaos created by the storm raging inside me. I saw U.G. standing on the upstairs balcony. It was 4 o'clock in the afternoon. I and Ranganatha Rao made our salutations as we climbed the stairs. A smile flashed on U.G.'s face. All three of us sat on the balcony overlooking the big and tall peepul tree. There was a

paved square bench around the tree. The peepul leaves were shining, reflecting the cool sunshine of the afternoon. U.G. was asking casually about the standard of living in Bangalore and the jobs in our factory. After a while, a question suddenly broke out of me: "U.G., you say there is no such thing as release or moksha. Then what is the meaning of selfrealization?" He answered, "To realize that there is no such thing as Atman, self or the ego is self-realization," and paused. "All right. Ramana Maharshi also answered this question in the same way," I thought to myself. "If there is nothing, then who is it that knows this? For whom is the self-realization?" I asked U.G.. "That is why I say that even that self-realization is a myth." U.G. smiled as he said this. I couldn't think of a response. How could I proceed further if my feet were tied down like this? U.G. was looking at me intently. Was self-realization all false? Or was this reply an evasion? How true were his words? Why should I believe them? My mind continued to question. Didn't all those wise men, prophets and avatars announce that we should know ourselves? All that they ceaselessly emphasized -- that to know ourselves is our sole aim in life, and that to attain unity was the goal of our life -- was all that false? Were all the assurances given by them merely writing on water? Were all the teachings which great sages ranging from the ancient Buddha to the more recent Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi taught in a unanimous voice -- were all of them lies? U.G. responded, "I don't know what they taught. If you ask me, all I can say is that all those people are misleading you. What they said and taught might be true for them. But you know yourself that those teachings don't operate in your daily life and in your own experience. They all deceived themselves thinking that they had achieved something, and they deceived others and are still continuing to do so. This was evident to me even when I was young. Since then I have lost all my beliefs. To question the beliefs and teachings which you have taken as true is to question those who taught them. You are not ready to throw out as bogus all those whom you have revered. You are afraid that that will put an end to your very existence. There was trembling inside of me when I heard U.G.'s words. What was the use of my living if those whom I trusted as my teachers and whom I adored -- Shau and Ramana Bhagawan -- were false? How would it [their teaching] benefit anyone? The birds were flying through the sky in flocks. From the peepul tree came noises of various kinds of birds. My mind was groaning with untold agony. Suddenly U.G. turned to me. He said, "Why are you so concerned about all these things? You are young and you must still marry. You must rise in your job. Why bother with all this nonsense?" For a moment I was stunned. My face blushed like the setting sun at his words. "I don't have much interest in those [worldly things]. I feel all those pleasures are momentary," I said in a low tone.

U.G. said, "If you think they are momentary, then you must think that the pleasure of self-realization is permanent. Right?" There was a mischievous smile on his lips. I turned pale at these words. "It's not permanent?" thought a big demon in myself. Looking at me compassionately, U.G. said, "You must believe my words. There is nothing permanent. Permanent happiness and infinite wisdom are illusory notions created by the nostril-closing [indicating meditation] phonies who endlessly discuss 'This is real and that is unreal', and who have nothing better to do. You trust those people and lose your interest in things which are real, and then search for non-existent things. If that is not slipping into a lowly state, what is?" All the ancient sages who had taken residence in my blood boiled in anger at U.G.'s words. All the scriptural testimonies they had quoted remained as mere prattling in my mind. There remained one last weapon in my endless arsenal: "You say that there is no God. You say that God is an illusion which man has created out of fear. Then you don't think there is a power beyond the reach of the mind that orders this universe?" U.G. answered: "I will say with certainty that there is no superior power outside of man and different from him. If there is any such power, that power is not different from you. The lowly mosquito that is sucking your blood is the expression of that divine power. That is why I say it is irrelevant to discuss the question of God. But I am not advocating, like Ramaswami Naicker [a South Indian leader who advocated political rights of non-Brahmins], the destruction of temples or burning of scriptures. Nothing is gained by doing such things." We could hear the sound of Vedic recitation (of Rudra Patha) from someone's house far away. Some ladies were under the peepul tree, perambulating around the tree with folded hands. I felt like parodying a Gurajada poem: If men keep saying "Oh God" How will the country prosper? It was getting dark. U.G. said in a low voice, "These questions are not new. Many have asked them before. In reality, they are not your questions. Besides these, do you have any question that is your own, that is not anyone else's?" I started to think. "Who am I?" Is that my own question? Isn't it Bhagawan's question? Yes. How can that question be mine? Just because I became identified with Shau's song which said `Who am I, Bhagawan, indeed, who am I, Bhagawan?', does the question then become mine? What is that question, the one question that will not let me rest, that will not let me get entangled, the question that will haunt me, torment me, that will burn me alive -- what is that question?" I leaned against the wall and remained staring into nothingness. The street lamp flashed on, dispelling the darkness. I woke up from my reverie and looked for U.G. by my side. U.G. had gone inside, and I heard him talking with the friends there. "If there is any help I can give you, it is this: to help you formulate your own question by yourselves. Beyond that, I cannot

help anyone. Beyond that, no one needs any help," U.G. was saying to someone. While I was listening to these words, I felt as if a thousand lights went on all at once. *** I report on U.G. to Chalam's family It was January 1, 1970. I was traveling by bus from Bangalore to Arunachala. The events of the past week were rolling around in my mind like a series of movie pictures. I felt a sense of longing when I recalled the last day on which I had said goodbye to U.G. U.G. was talking to some friends upstairs. "U.G., goodbye," I said, joining my hands together. Saying, "You are leaving?", U.G. came close to me in one big step. "I am leaving tomorrow morning for Arunachala," I said. He already knew that I was friends with Chalam. "Please say hello to Mr. Chalam and his family. When I was living in Gudivada, I knew Mr. Chalam. Mr. Chalam's wife, Mrs. Ranganayakamma used to write to me a lot of letters, some crazy letters," he said, quickly reaching for my hands, pressing them and letting them go. Then, again, he put both his hands on my shoulders, and squeezing, slid his hands down to my elbows and instantly let them go. He said, "O.K., you go now," and without another word moved toward other friends as though nothing had happened. I was speechless for some moments, as if I had a shock, and stood motionless. From my shoulders to the tips of my fingers I felt a strange numbness from U.G.'s touch. "What happened? Why am I feeling like that?" I was thinking to myself as I was going down the stairs to leave. In all the years since this occurrence, I noticed U.G. doing similar interesting things like this to a few others. "I don't know anything. Whatever you feel is your own illusion. There is no energy transmission, nothing," says U.G. if you ask him about it. It was evening by the time I arrived in Arunachala. When I arrived at Ramanasthan, Chalam, Shau and other friends were out on a walk. I went looking for them. I found them at the Drowpadi temple. I was eager to relate my U.G. story to 'Father' and Shau. Shau made me talk a lot. I showed her the photo of U.G. which Valentine gave me. She said, "We see his body, but for him his body was burnt long ago." These words impressed everyone. "What is his full name?" Shau asked. "Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti," I said. "What? Uppaluri? Father, he seems to be the grandson of Mr. Tenali Venkatappayya," she said, as she showed the photo to Mr. Chalam. In two minutes the question was settled. The unknown person, U.G., was found to be a close relative of Shau;

they are cousins. "We saw him long ago in my childhood. At that time he was of the age of Ravi [Chalam's eldest son]. Ever since we were children we used to do Yoga and meditation. We used to address each other by our relationship. My mother tried her best to marry us in those days," said Shau with great mirth. At that time 'Amma' (Mr. Chalam's wife, Mrs. Ranganayakamma) was in a life-and-death crisis in Arunachala. "Amma, apparently your Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti came to Bangalore. It seems he has become a great guru. Chandrasekhar brought us the news that he said hello to you," spoke Shau in Amma's ear. There was some change in her facial expression. She said, "Sadasiva," and closed her eyes. On January 17, 1970 Amma closed her eyes for good. *** 1. Mr. Gudipati Venkatachalam (`Chalam' was his pen name] was a well-known writer in Telugu. His many essays, novels, short-stories, plays and poetry reflected his revolt against oppression of women, against the caste system and against various social injustices; they also expressed his lifelong spritual quest. Later in his life, he moved, along with his daughter, Sowris, and the rest of his family, from Andhra Pradesh to Tiruvannamalai, the abode of Sri Ramana Maharshi, where he spent the rest of his life practicing the teachings of the Maharshi. 2. M.G.R. is a movie star in Tamil movies. Children in Ramanasthan spend time constantly talking about his movies. 3. In Sri Ramanasthan they used to celebrate every August 15 as the day of God's incarnation. Shau stopped these celebrations in 1971. What was the reason? Shau said that U.G. appeared to her and commanded that such celebrations in Ramanasthan should no longer take place.

PART TWO 7 Dr. Desiraju The day was October 10, 1992. Suguna arrived in Yercaud with Mr. and Mrs. Satyanarayana and Sashidhar, all friends of

U.G. Suguna said, "Dr. Desiraju died from a heart attack. They announced it in the papers." I was shocked to hear the news. He was a renowned neurophysiologist with the National Institute of Mental Health. He was from Andhra. Although I didn't know him well, the reason for my shock was that, seventeen years ago, he was the one who was responsible for letting U.G.'s view of life be known to the public in U.G.'s own words. I can never forget that event in my life. It happened on December 23, 1976. That year U.G. had set up his camp on the street opposite the Mallikarjuna temple in an old building. The rooms upstairs were big. In the long hall-way the redcemented floor was polished well and covered with a rug. Dr. Varma, Dr. Desiraju, Dr. Kapoor (the former director) and six other doctors came from NIMHANS (National Institute of Mental Health and Neuroscience) to talk to U.G. My friends and I were waiting eagerly for a discussion to take place. U.G. spoke continuously for two and a half hours, answering the doctors' questions. After hearing U.G.'s description of his Natural State and how his senses functioned in that state, Dr. Desiraju asked, "I would like to know precisely how all these things happened to you. I will be happy if you could tell us about them in as much detail as you can remember. Just assume I am a Nachiketa." U.G. smiled in a mild manner and said, "That's a long story. It's not so easy." Dr. Desiraju: We would like to hear it. U.G.: I can't. I'll have to tell you the whole story. It takes a lot of time. My biography goes only so far; then it stops. After that, I have nothing to report. Any of my biographers' aim is only to establish that my childhood upbringing, my education, the spiritual practices I performed, all brought about this Natural State. If I try to tell them that all those things were only obstacles and that whatever happened to me happened in spite of them, they don't want to listen to me, because then they can't make their story juicy. They all want to know how this sort of thing happened, and in what way it happened. When I tell them that this is acausal, they become disappointed. My background is of no value to me. How can this be a model for you? Your background is different. Each background is unique. Dr. Desiraju: It is not that I want to make your biography into a model. It's just like looking at the sun and the moon or the pole star flickering in the distant skies. I am not necessarily requesting this in order to imitate you. That's why I said I am a Nachiketa. I shall not leave this place until I learn the truth from you. U.G.: I am not opposed to your request, but I am unable to tell you. I don't know where to start. It looks like I have to tell

you the whole story. Dr. Desiraju: We are ready to hear it all. That was how Dr. Desiraju, the veritable Nachiketa, provoked and persuaded U.G. to tell his whole life story. We recorded all of it on tape. Rodney Arms edited the material and published it as the first chapter in the book the Mystique of Enlightenment. *** 8 First Visit to Madras U.G. underwent much physical turmoil after the Calamity that befell him in 1967. Either because of the chemical changes that occurred in his body, or because of energy outbursts, his whole body used to undergo contortions as though a wet cloth was being wrung out. At the time, Mr. Desikachar, who was well known as a Yoga teacher in India, happened to be in Saanen, Switzerland, where U.G. was also. He became acquainted with U.G. and used to visit U.G. and spend time with him under the pretext of eating South Indian meals prepared by U.G. Observing U.G.'s bodily condition, he opined that if U.G. practiced Yoga his body would quiet down. He told U.G. that his father, Sri Krishnamacharya, was in fact more capable of teaching Yoga than himself. At Mr. Desikachar's insistence, U.G. came to Madras with Valentine at the end of that year. There he started practicing Yoga under the guidance of Sri Krishnamacharya. Sri Krishnamacharya was even more renowned than Mr. Desikachar as a Yoga teacher. He was also a scholar and a centenarian. U.G. was surprised to find that the Yoga postures Sri Krishnamacharya taught proved contrary to the natural energy movements in U.G.'s body. U.G. remarked about this to Sri Krishnamacharya. The latter quoted verses from the Bhagavad Gita substantiating his methods. With that, U.G. lost the little faith he had had before in the worth of Yoga practice. Because, by his nature, he wouldn't brush aside anything so quickly, U.G. wanted to give this Yoga practice a good chance, and continued to practice it for three years. So, he practiced all the postures prescribed by Sri Krishnamacharya faithfully. He examined minutely all the effects of this yoga on his body, and thus proved to himself beyond doubt that those practices were all of no avail to him. At that time, U.G. used to live in the house in Hanumanthanagar in Bangalore. I too stayed in that house for a few days. As

was my practice, I used to get up early in the morning, take a cold water bath and practice some Yoga postures in the manner taught to me by Sowris. During my practice, U.G. sometimes used to come in and correct me in some places. For instance, he admonished me not to open my eyes during my headstand. The truth which U.G. finally realized from his own experience was that Yoga does more harm than good to the body. U.G. says that the movements which the body goes through spontaneously as it is coming out of the state of 'death' are closer to the Tai Chi movements than to the postures of Yoga. Also, U.G. says that it's a mistake to perform the 'Corpse Posture' (Savasana) at the end of the Yoga practice. He insists that it should come at the beginning. *** Meeting with the Sankaracharya of Sringeri That year in Madras, U.G. ran into his boyhood friend, Mr. Tummalapalli Ramalingeswara Rao. Mr. Tummalapalli was a great scholar in the Sanskrit, Telugu and English languages. He was also an adept in Mantras. U.G. at that time was looking for a more suitable place in India, a place with a more temperate climate than Madras. When he heard of U.G.'s interests, Mr. Tummalapalli suggested Sringeri as the proper place. "I am well acquainted with the Jagadguru [lit. `World Teacher' -title of Sri Sankaracharya] of Sringeri Pitha, Sri Abhinava Vidya Tirtha Swami. Things will work out well for you there," he assured U.G. and Valentine and led them to Sringeri. U.G. liked the environs of Sringeri very much and also the peaceful climate of the banks of the River Tunga. He wanted to rent or buy a place and live there. Mr. Ramalingeswara Rao introduced U.G. to the Swami of Sringeri. When he heard of the Calamity that had happened to U.G., he said "I must talk to you in private," and led U.G. into his private chambers which were located in a garden called Narasimhavana on the far side of the river Tunga. It is noteworthy that he allowed Valentine also into that room. The Swami sat on the Teacher's Seat (Guru Pitha), and U.G. and Valentine sat in front of him. "When I heard of the extraordinary things that happened to you, I am reminded of my guru Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati," the Jagadguru started talking. "I don't know of these things in my own personal experience. But my teacher used to describe his experiences just the way they have occurred in your case. We were afraid that perhaps his mind was deranged. It is very rare that the body survives the shock of such a thoughtless state. According to the scriptures, within twenty one days after such an event the body dies. If the body could sustain its vital force and not die off, it must surely be for the sake of saving humanity. There is no doubt about it."

U.G., on the contrary, had no inclination to save the world or uplift humanity. He listened silently as the teacher spoke. Then he presented to the Jagadguru his proposal for establishing his residence near Sringeri in a solitary place away from people. In reply, the Jagadguru said, "I will be responsible for getting you any place around here, if you so wish. But your idea of living alone will never work. Whether you stay in a jungle or in a mountain cave, people won't stop coming to see you." The teacher's warning made U.G. abandon his resolve to stay away from people. At that time, Dr. K. B. Ramakrishna Rao used to be the principal of the JCBM College in Sringeri. The Jagadguru invited him to visit and introduced him to U.G. The following are the highlights of Professor Ramakrishna Rao's account of his early acquaintance with U.G.: "In those days I was deeply studying Kundalini Yoga. My chief daily activities then were reading books about that Yoga, discussing it with people who had some experience of it and practicing it as much as possible. After I met U.G., in the presence of the Jagadguru, I invited him to my home. I detected some uniqueness and divinity in him. When I saw him walking with shoes even inside the house, I thought it must a habit he had acquired in the West. I was surprised when he said that that was not the case, that if he put his bare feet on the ground, he would be bothered by the electromagnetic energy that would be transmitted from the ground. When I heard later all the things that had happened to U.G., I was amazed and wonderstruck. "To satisfy my curiosity U.G. showed me the colors that appeared on his skin at the base of his neck, on his chest and around his navel. The common opinion is that the energy centers called Nadi Chakras, which Kundalini Yoga talks about, are merely psychological. I used to wonder how, if that were the case, the ancients were able to ascribe forms, measurements and colors to them? When I heard the things U.G. had undergone, I felt that, for the first time, I had new answers to my doubts, answers which I had never heard before. U.G. explained that at precisely the same locations as the Nadi centers there are some ductless glands, and that when and if the mechanism of thought comes to a stop, all the energies that are dormant in those glands become active and bring about biological and chemical changes, and that the result was indeed the Natural State. As I continued to observe U.G.'s actions and movements, I gained the firm conviction that he was truly a living example of the Natural State which he had been describing. I felt that such new truths from such a unique vision must become accessible to as many people as possible." That evening, Dr. Ramakrishna Rao and a group of his friends led U.G. and Valentine to the top of Rishyasringa Hill adjacent to the Tunga river. They all sat under a tree. They were curious to hear the story of U.G.'s Calamity. U. G. didn't

like to disappoint them; so he narrated, for about an hour, all the things that had happened to him. It turned out to be a long lecture. It must be in Sringeri that U.G. probably first started lecturing again after he quit his lecturing in the U.S.A. many years before. From that day till now, in all of these twenty five years, how many thousands of people, from all corners of the earth, have come to hear U.G.'s talks! Between then and now U.G.'s manner of speaking has not changed. He never gets up on a platform. He never accepts invitations from institutions. If anyone comes to him and asks him questions, he answers in the manner he feels appropriate. *** Coffee estate guest house in Chikkamagaluru That year U.G. stayed for a month in the guest house of a coffee estate in a place called Tirthagundi. There is an interesting story behind his coming to this coffee estate: In the state of Karnataka, Chikkamagaluru district is famous for its coffee estates. It is five thousand feet high from the sea level. Many places in that district compete with each other for their natural beauty. That day, U.G., Valentine and David Barry were staying in a Travellers' Bungalow in a place called Jayapura. Suddenly, U.G. announced, "Valentine, we are not going to stay here any longer. Let's leave." Valentine was shocked. She knew that it would be useless to ask him, "Where are we going?" So she packed her luggage and got ready to go. Meanwhile, a stranger came into the Bungalow saying that he had heard that there was a 'Yogi' there. "How does that Yogi look?" asked U.G. "Just like you," he replied, saluting U.G. His name was Subbarao. He was the manager of a coffee estate in Tirthagundi near Jayapura. One night his servant had a dream in which a Yogi appeared in white pajamas and jubba and taught him many interesting philosophical truths in a language that he could understand. After relating his dream, he said to his master, "What that Swami taught was completely opposed to what you say. What you say is all false." As the servant spoke with such conviction, Subbarao did not question him. That morning the servant saw U.G. near the Travelers' Bungalow and identified him as the Yogi who had appeared in his dream. He ran to his master and reported that the Yogi who had appeared in his dream was staying in the Travelers' Bungalow on the outskirts of the town.

"If you have no objection, you can stay in our coffee estate guest house. You will be quite comfortable there. There is also a cook," he said. U.G. went in his car to look at the place out and then accepted his invitation. He moved there with Valentine, David Barry and the luggage. All this happened in a matter of minutes. Since then, until 1973, U.G. and Valentine used to go to Tirthagundi whenever they came to India. *** The Natural State is being able to act efficiently.... When U.G. left Bangalore for Bombay in December 1969, I never thought that I would meet him again. After six months, I unexpectedly got a picture-postcard from him. By that time Brahmachariji had vacated his Cave and no one knew where he was. U.G., in his note, enquired after everyone's welfare and asked me for Brahmachariji's address. I did not reply to that letter. I can't explain why I didn't. I didn't quite understand why U.G. wrote to me when he had so many other friends. "Maybe he wrote to many others as well. Maybe one of them will reply to him." I now feel guilty for not replying. Before a month had elapsed, I received another letter from U.G. This time he wrote care of Chalam in Ramanasthan. He must have thought that I had gone there. Sowris forwarded that letter to me. U.G. didn't mention anything special in it, but hinted that he was thinking of coming to Bangalore that year [1970], also. I received another letter from Mysore from Valentine. By this time it was December again. Valentine wrote that she and U.G. would be passing through Bangalore on their way to Madras and asked me to rent a cottage for them in the Woodlands Hotel. When I saw that letter, I reproached myself for not replying to U.G.'s previous letters. Just then, a friend of mine called Jagannath was getting his newly-built house ready for a house-warming function. I felt that a separate house for U.G. and Valentine would be better than a cottage in a hotel and wrote accordingly to Valentine. I received a telegram within four days asking me to rent that house and send U.G. confirmation of the rental. I spoke to my friend, rented the house for the first week of January 1971 and wrote accordingly to U.G. "We are arriving next Sunday by car," U.G. informed me by telegram a week before he came. We were at that time involved in arranging a program in Bangalore for the following Friday, to celebrate Sri Ramana's Birthday under the auspices of our Sankara School of Culture. For that day, we were planning different sorts of meetings, a big dinner for the invitees, and group devotional singing. As I was immersed in those arrangements, I didn't think of

making arrangements for U.G.'s minimal needs in the new house. Unexpectedly, on Friday afternoon, U.G. and Valentine got out of a taxi at our hostel. I was so surprised to see them, as I was expecting them on Sunday. The celebration was still going on in the hall. U.G. and Valentine waited patiently until the festivities came to an end. I still can't believe even now that along with all the others, U.G. received the "Grace" when incense was burned to signal the completion of the celebration, by showing his hands to the incense and pressing them against his eyes. U.G. even dined with all of us in the hostel that day. I must pay a tribute to U.G.'s patience: he never made himself conspicuous, he never caused any anxiety or worry to anyone as a result of his presence, and he bore patiently all the commotion of the celebration until I had time to attend to his needs. It was evening when at last I was able to take U.G. and Valentine to the house I had arranged for them. We had the house all right, but the rooms were barren, with not a single piece of furniture in them, not even a reed mat. An empty house welcomed us. I thought regretfully that if I had had another day at my disposal, I could have catered to all their basic necessities. "I like this house. If the house owner has no objection, we will rent it for three weeks," U.G. said. Then he turned to me and said, smiling, "You eat with us tonight." "Is he making fun of me?" I thought. There was nothing in the house. The kitchen was empty. There wasn't even a spoon. What would they cook and what would we eat? I was completely at a loss. But right in front of my eyes something spectacular happened that day. U.G. went out accompanied by me and arranged to buy all the necessary things, including chairs, tables, beds, and mattresses and got them all arranged. As I was watching, the kitchen looked full, with the necessary pots, pans and utensils. U.G. did not even forget a rag to clean the floors. I marveled at U.G.'s actions: "What sort of a jivanmukta is this? He surpasses even a staunch family man in his ability to furnish a house." The efficiency he had shown in shopping for the household things made the ego I had developed regarding my own efficiency feel very deflated. U.G. seemed to have taught me a lesson without saying anything: "The Natural State is not closing your nose, sitting in some cave and falling asleep. It is being able to act efficiently without a flaw even in the market place." All of my friends and I ate a full meal of Upma with U. G. in the new house. ***

9 The basis of all relationships is the same: "What will I get?".... It was January of 1972. The mere thought of that time sends chills through my heart even now. It was the time when India had scored a victory over Pakistan and was puffed up with the pride of that victory. There were celebrations everywhere. But there was only chaos in my heart. The torment, the torture U.G. deliberately subjected me to, the battles I waged within myself, my God -- I felt that I wouldn't want them to happen even to my enemies. U.G. and Valentine arrived in Bangalore in January. The enthusiasm of anticipating U.G.'s arrival did not last long. As soon as he came, he started making fun of me. I couldn't endure U.G. making it his business to laugh at my beliefs, convictions and the persons whom I revered as deities. But what could I do? I knew my weaknesses. Moreover, however much I tried to brush it aside, the truth in U.G.'s words would sink into my head. I knew clearly that he was only trying to enable me to throw away my crutches and stand on my own legs without faltering. Despite these insights, when in his presence, my feelings used to be hurt. The more hurt I felt, the angrier I became. One night I boiled over. I didn't want to stay with him, or his teasing, for one more minute. "No, I don't want the friendship of gentlemen like him anymore. I am fed up with what I have already had," I fumed as I headed home. My mind was seething with emotion and anger. As soon as I got home, I grabbed the framed picture of U.G. and Sowris -- the picture of the two persons I adored as deities -- and flung it hard on a stone and broke it. With continuing vengeance I took the photo out of the broken frame and tore it up. Surprisingly, I then saw that among all the torn up pieces U.G.'s face was still intact and untorn on one of the fragments. I was dumbfounded for a minute. Collecting myself, I threw away all the pieces. "Finished, I am done with both of these people. I will live my own life. I will never see their faces again," I was talking to myself in anger. For two days, I didn't go near the house where U.G. was living. I suppressed my longing for U.G. "No, don't fall into that fascination again. What do you lack if you don't see U.G.?" I consoled myself. On the evening of the third day, half an hour after I came home from work, I heard someone knocking at my door. I couldn't believe my eyes when I opened the door. There was U.G., with a smile on his face, and Valentine, standing in front of me. "Chandrasekhar, what happened? We haven't had the pleasure of your visit for three days. Who can take care of us if not you?" U.G. said walking in. I felt like embracing his legs and crying. At that very moment all my anger disappeared. I became normal. I wondered how I had been able to carry on without seeing U.G. for those three days.

That year, U.G. stayed in Bangalore for five months. He never stayed in Bangalore that long ever again. There was an old abandoned bungalow in the Vani Vilas Street across from the Lal Bagh Gate. We arranged U.G.'s residence in the second floor of that building for that year. That floor of the house had been abandoned because three years previously someone had committed suicide there. After U.G. and company started living there, the house acquired an inhabited look. My friend, Hanumantha Reddy, was unemployed at that time. So, he used to live with U.G. and Valentine to help them out. "Psychological fears are of two kinds: the fear of not getting what we want, and the fear of losing what we have," says U.G. In those days these two fears used to ride over me like two demons, day in and day out. I would be in turmoil at not being able to find a solution to some personal problem that was tormenting me. I wouldn't listen to anyone's advice. I was choking in a mire that I had voluntarily thrown myself into, and I didn't have the guts to get myself out of it. I groped around hoping that I would get a helping hand from some trusted unknown force. Unable to express my suffering to anyone, I was instead consumed by it. One night, U.G. and I were sitting on the terrace of the abandoned bungalow in the open air at the dinner table. U.G. knew my problem. I knew the solution that U.G. would suggest to me. He knew that I was not prepared for the solution he was suggesting. For many days this peek-a-boo game had been going on. "The basis of all personal relations is the same: it is 'What will I get from this relationship?' All relationships are based on exchange. If the exchange does not work out, the relationship will collapse. It [a relationship] is not so easy, and it is not so easily broken. But your welfare lies in its being broken," said U.G. Meanwhile, the power in the electric lines went out. A small lamp which Hanumantha Reddy lighted was fighting the darkness as best as it could. My heart was moaning in silence: "Is this inevitable? Is there no way to avoid this goblet of poison? Can there be no grace from God?" Suddenly I heard U.G.'s voice, "If there is such a thing as grace anywhere, it will certainly separate you two [myself and my wife]." There was neither harshness nor softness in that voice. Words came out of him as though from a robot. That was it. After that, my heart became very lonely. My sorrow cried out silently. Then U.G.'s clouds of compassion burst down on me. That compassion instantly broke dams, made me breathless, and filled my barren existence with new life. *** That year [1972] U.G. had to carry dual burdens of the persons of Brahmachariji and myself. We both clung to U.G. like

mindless leeches: we had been playing with life foolishly, had been hurt terribly and had lost all interest in life. We felt only U.G. could hold us each by his hand on either side and save us from danger. Dr. Prabhu U.G. sometimes runs into a problem with his esophagus. His assessment of it is, "This is a plumbing problem." The problem sometimes causes anxiety to those around U.G. A famous cancer specialist in Germany once examined U.G. and said that it might be a cancer of the esophagus. Valentine started worrying. "I am ready to go at any time," was U.G.'s response. Dr. Prabhu was one of the doctors who took upon themselves the task of preserving U.G.'s health when he came to India that year. He hailed from Mangalore and he was a great Ayurvedic physician. He was acclaimed as unequaled in diagnosing a disease on the basis of examining a person's pulse. Whenever U.G. visited Mangalore, he used to stay in Dr. Prabhu's house as his guest. That year Dr. Prabhu set up camp in Bangalore for a month to attend to U.G. Sometime before that U.G. stayed in Manipal Medical College Hostel for a week as Dr. Prabhu's guest. Dr. Prabhu was treating U.G. at that time for his esophagus trouble. He had a special medicated oil prepared for him. He had his eighteen-year old daughter, Pratibha, massage the whole of U.G.'s body with that oil. The reason, he said, was that U.G.'s skin was more delicate than a newborn baby's. His nervous system, Dr. Prabhu said, had become so sensitive that it couldn't stand the touch of men. Dr. Prabhu claimed that the oil could only be applied delicately by a 16 to18 year-old girl. He gave holy water to the girl and supervised her massage standing by her side. The process went on for hours each day. U.G. would sit almost naked with a loin cloth and she would apply the oil on the whole of his body and massage it. Dr. Prabhu would sit by his side chatting and feeling his pulse. Until the day he told us in Bangalore later, we didn't know that he was subjecting U.G. to a terrible test. "I have the skill of detecting the thousand ways that a pulse can beat," Dr. Prabhu said, "If even for a moment sexual feelings arise in the body when a young woman touches it all over, it will be registered in the pulse instantly. But there was no reaction at all in U.G.'s body. It doesn't mean he is a eunuch. Even eunuchs have sexual feelings. It became extremely clear to me that U.G.'s nervous system is beyond emotions and passions." We listened to this in amazement. *** Sastri Sadan in Bangalore -- Viswanath

It was May of that year. The summer was unbearably hot in Bangalore. The rains were late in coming. U.G. and Valentine couldn't stand so much heat. U.G. said, "If it does not rain and the weather does not cool down in the next couple of days, we are going to say goodbye to Bangalore," The ultimatum worked. Before he left for Europe at the end of May, U.G. made me make two promises: one, that for the next six months, until he returned from his trip, I would go to work regularly without applying for leave; and two, that I would choose a course of study related to my work and apply myself to it. I had to undergo a lot of hardships during those six months to keep my promises to U.G. When I look back on those months, it looks like they were the ones during which I started to stand on my own legs. Six months later, when U.G. returned to Bangalore in December 1972, we reserved Sastri Sadanam opposite the Anjaneya Temple for his residence. U.G. wanted to rent that house not just on a short-term basis but for two years. He also wanted me to vacate my current house and move to Sastri Sadanam. He asked me to speak to the owner, Viswanath, regarding the rental arrangements. Later, when we were all chatting that same evening outside of the house on an open porch, Viswanath came by. U.G. told him of his plans and asked him to build a bathroom upstairs for his convenience. Viswanath agreed to everything, but they had a disagreement over money. Viswanath wanted a hundred rupees more toward rent. U.G. was adamant and refused to pay more. When U.G. shouted at him saying, "We don't want this house; please return our advance money," Viswanath shouted back louder saying, "Never, I won't give it until you vacate the house!" The next moment U.G. went into a rage: "We won't vacate the house; nor will we pay the rent! We will see what you will do!" I was dumbfounded when U.G. thus squared himself off for a fight. "If you don't vacate, I will take you to court," threatened Viswanath. U.G. pounced on him with a fiery face saying, "No one here is afraid of your stupid threats, get out!" "We shall see," said Viswanath and he left hurriedly. The whole fight took place in the presence of all those gentlemen and gentle ladies who came to U.G.'s place to have his satsang [lit. communion], believing him to be a Brahmajnani. My friends slipped away one by one. Not only U.G. and Valentine, but also their guests Volcker, Dr. Lynn, Julie [Wellings] from California and John Allen were also staying there at that time. U.G.'s anger did not subside even after he came back into the house. "He is threatening to drag me to the court. He thinks I don't know the law. The house is in our control. No court will get us out of here," said U.G., turning to me. "Chandrasekhar, you are the one who is going to stay in this house. We will be going away. Don't be frightened by the threats of Viswanath. If you want to stand up and fight bravely, you will have all my financial, moral and physical support. What do you say?" Everyone present was looking at me in pity, as though I were an innocent bystander caught up in trouble unawares. When

U.G. asked me thus, I had an unknown courage: "I am ready U.G.," I said. "Right. Tomorrow morning I will give you a plan about what you should do and how you should conduct the case. Good night!" U.G. said and retired into his room. All the foreign friends were commenting on what happened in whatever way they thought fit. Julie looked at me and said, "Chandrasekhar, think carefully. U.G. and his company will all leave. You will be the only one who will take care of the court affairs. Why do you want to get caught in these tangles?" She advised me to wash my hands of this affair. I came to a decision that night. Whatever might happen, even if the sky above collapses on me, I would stand by my words and listen to U.G. If he wanted me to jump into fire, I would. I was already in hell. What could be worse? When I came to this decision late in the night, I fell asleep soundly. The next day was Sunday. At eight o'clock in the morning U.G. called me and asked me to send word to Viswanath to come. He came immediately. As if nothing had happened the night before, U.G. said 'hello' to Viswanath and said, "We will pay you the rent you want. I will also pay you now for two years rent, so that you can make those changes and repairs. O.K.?" Viswanath was immensely pleased with this offer. "I myself wanted to reduce the rent," he said. U.G. said, "No, no. Don't. It's only five hundred rupees. In Switzerland we spend that much money in a week." That was it. In three minutes the transaction was closed. All the friends who had come with worried minds let out sighs of relief when they learned of the latest developments. When U.G. could settle matters so easily, why did he make so much fuss the evening before? Why did he enact that drama? Even now I can't fathom that. *** 10 If not moksha, at least a transistor -- Krishna Bhagavatar Thus began the time of my moving into the house on Anjaneya Temple Street. That winter was cold. A sonorous voice could be heard passing on the street every morning singing to the accompaniment of cymbals the chant "Hari Narayana, Hari Narayana." U.G. had noticed him, too, and remarked one day: "I see someone going on the street everyday singing Bhajans. His shoulders are covered with a shawl. I wonder who he is?" When he came into our house on the Siva Ratri day

in the same attire, then we knew that he was no less than Mr. Bangalore Krishna Bhagavatar, known not only in Bangalore, but throughout South India. Everyone called him 'Bhagavatar'. He was a guru to many. He wore a white Glasgow Mull dhoti, a white shirt, a Kashmir shawl on his shoulders, and a rosary around his neck. His body being fair shone through the clothes. He wore marks of vibhuti (ashes) on his forehead. In the middle of those marks, he wore a round red vermilion mark. The Bhagavatar was an attractive man. Although he was over seventy five, he looked healthy and strong. He had a college degree in agriculture and had worked for some years. His wife's and son's deaths when he was twenty five caused havoc in his life. He renounced everything and took to traveling. There was no holy place he did not visit. There was no ashram he did not go to. At last, he attained peace in the presence of a guru in Srirangam. When the guru provoked the artistic talent in him by showing him a way of attaining self-satisfaction through entertaining everyone by singing Harikathas (Stories of Gods; lit. stories of Vishnu), Bhagavatar's life gained a new purpose. Since then, for the next fifty years, he had a steady life. He not only studied Indian culture and tradition thoroughly, but also practiced them in his everyday life. As a last living witness to the Indian Tradition, he went around the city singing devotional songs. The Rama temples he had built by singing Hari Kathas and collecting contributions remain today as a tribute to his memory. He was a great scholar, and was fluent not only in the Kannada, Tamil and Telugu languages but also in English. He wrote Harikathas in all four languages. One day, when he was on his City Singing rounds, he visited my friend Sanjiva Rao's house. As Sanjiva Rao knew about the Bhagavatar's spiritual quest, he told him, "In this same street there is a jnani called U. G. Krishnamurti. He just arrived from Switzerland. Go and visit him." Bhagavatar received this information rather lightly. He replied, "You can't fool me. I have seen and heard many Krishnamurtis before." At the same time my friend's wife, who was standing next to them asked, "Swami, what's the significance of today?" "Today is Maha Siva Ratri, my lady. I must go to the Siva Temple from here." She said, "If you really want to visit Siva in person, there is a living Siva in Viswanath's house at the end of this street. Go and visit him." Bhagavatar was shocked at her words. He was more inclined to believe her than her husband. He straightaway arrived at the doorway of U.G., and since that day U.G.'s house became Bhagavatar's second home. He ran to it whenever he thought of U.G. Ever since he found U.G., there was never an end to his jubilation. He used to address U.G. as 'Appa' (Lit. 'Father'), although U.G. was twenty years younger than him. This reminded me of how Sri Ramana Maharshi addressed Mr. Ganapati Sastry, who was older than him, as 'Nayana' ('Father'). Bhagavatar also used to

call Valentine 'Mother'. He used to sit by U.G.'s side and relate many stories about devotees (of gods) in a tasteful manner, acting them out. Whenever Bhagavatar's eyes rolled in tears, U.G.'s eyes too became moist. Bhagavatar used to appreciate that in U.G., "Appa is really a lover of devotees. He is moved by their devotion." When he quoted a saying in Sanskrit "bhaktireva gariyasi..." ('with bhakti thou shall excel') and looked meaningfully at U.G., the latter merely smiled and collected himself. The smile could be read as, "as if you know what bhakti really means." But U.G. never condemned Bhagavatar's faith or beliefs. When at times U.G. started his tirade on human culture and civilization, immediately Bhagatar used to get up and run out saying, "'Father', it's time for me to go. Goodbye." He didn't have the courage to withstand the attacks. Even after U.G. had left for Switzerland, Bhagavatar used to come and chat with me every day. He was quite keen on composing a Hari Katha on U.G. in English. But he was terribly disappointed when he couldn't find even a sampling of any of the elements which would normally be found in the lives of spiritual people (or Devotees). Meanwhile, it was getting close to U.G.'s birthday. Bhagavatar was enthusiastic about celebrating it along with all of us. We all agreed. But how could we do it without informing U.G. about it? What would he say if he knew about it? I decided to write to him, no matter what the consequence might be. Just as we expected, U.G. replied scolding us: "Celebrating the birthday of anyone is an immature, childish, infantile activity. How can you do such a thing to me?" He concluded the letter with, "....That is your house. You may spend your time in fasts, feasts and festivals, but leave this individual who has neither birth nor death severely alone...." That was a lesson to us. When I showed the letter to Bhagavatar, he started laughing: "That's right, Appa, That's right. True, we are still children. We keep playing." Then he borrowed a photo of U.G. from me to get an enlargement and frame it. The U.G.'s Birthday tradition which began thus continued uninterrupted for ten years. We used to set up the picture of U.G., listen to some tapes of U.G.'s, and make someone speak about U.G. We would send greetings to U.G. and all of us used to sign it. "My birthday gathers bigger crowds than I do," U.G. joked. Apparently, once, when no one was around, Bhagavatar held U.G.'s feet saying, "Appa, no one else cares for me. Only you can show me the way to Release [moksha]." U.G. instantly picked him up trying to prevent him from holding his feet. He said, "You spent so many years with Ramana Maharshi. Why didn't you ask him?" "At that time, I didn't have either that interest or yearning. Now, I feel I don't want anything else," he answered. U.G. said, "That's the only thing I cannot give. It's not something that someone can give and someone else can receive. You ask for anything else. I will give that." As soon as he said that, the Bhagavatar asked U.G. to get him a small transistor

[from abroad], U.G. reported. U.G. jokes about him saying, "His interest slipped fast from moksha to a transistor." But I had no doubt about the earnestness of the Bhagavatar [in spiritual matters]. He used to treasure his acquaintance with U.G. Even when he was 92 and unable to move, he used to come and see U.G. every year. Bhagavatar moved his camp from this world the same year that we changed our residence to Poornakutee. *** "If I don't torture you, who will?" -- Kalyani One evening U.G. was speaking, sitting on a carpet spread on the floor. The room was filled with audience. Except for U.G.'s voice, there was total silence. A lady pushed the gate open, came inside and sat at the threshold. She must have been just under sixty. She wore a blue sari, the same colored blouse, wrists full of blue bangles, a thick layer of talc powder on the face, a blue beauty mark on the face, blue flowers in her hair, a necklace with blue beads on her neck -she was all blue. She carried an aluminum bowl. When U.G. was speaking she occasionally wrote something down in her book of scrap paper. She looked rather amusing. I was wondering where I had seen her before. I later remembered that I had seen her four or five times in the market place panhandling with the bowl for coins. "Why did she come here," I asked myself. She heard the discussion with U.G. for about an hour. Then she stood up and said in good English, "Sir, do you think anybody in this assembly understands what you are saying? Only these walls seem to have benefited by your talking." She then walked out in a hurry. We were all thunderstruck. Who was this? "She is Kalyani. She is crazy," said someone. After that Kalyani used to come every day. She had total liberty in U.G.'s presence. She laughed and made others laugh. She sang and danced around. If there was anyone in the audience whom she didn't like, she used to insult them with words. She used to ask U.G. for money. "Don't beg for money any more. I will give you whatever you want," U.G. would say to her and give her a lot of money. Even then, she would still beg for coins with her aluminum bowl in front of the Anjaneya temple. She was always glad to see Valentine. She used to call her, 'Madam.' When she became more sentimental, she used to hug her, calling her, "Dammu, Dammu [vernacular variation of 'madam']." Although Valentine did not care for Kalyani's behavior, she liked Kalyani's decoration of herself. Kalyani was born in a rich Ayyengar family. She graduated from college with a B.Sc. and used to work as a mathematics teacher in a girls high school. Her husband was a superior I.A.S. [Indian Administrative Service] officer. He was a joint secretary in the Central Government in Delhi. She was used to giving charities from early in her life. Her family used to

give freely to monks and heads of Maths. She performed many worships and rituals and as a result she lost her mind. Her family could no longer manage her behavior, so they admitted her in the mental hospital. Since then her manner changed completely. Even after she was discharged from the mental hospital, she could not go back to her normal life. Unable to help her, her husband left her to her own devices. Her daughter's husband was also an I.A.S. officer. They both lived in Hyderabad. The two hundred rupees her husband sent every month, and the fifty rupees that the management of the school she had worked in paid her, these were her only monthly income. Until she came to U.G. she had no one to care for her. U.G. arranged a room for her in the premises of Sastri Sadanam. Whenever she asked, U.G. would give her ten rupees. "U.G. sir made me a rich beggar," she used to say. Noticing her manner and ways, U.G.'s friends, Mahesh, Parveen Babi and many others became fond of her. Mahesh's wife Kiran liked Kalyani very much. Kalyani used to keep a tab on how much money people gave her. In some fashion or other, as she saw fit, she used to help them. Once she asked me for five rupees and got it. Later, on my birthday, I received from the Kanchi Kamakoti Math Office some sacraments and a receipt in my name for five rupees. I wondered who sent them that money. Another time she gave me a package and asked me to deliver it to the Swami (monk) residing in the Avani Sankara Math on the outskirts of Bangalore. I did not have the time to do that. Kalyani used to ask me everyday, "When are you going to go there?" One evening I went there straight from my office and delivered the package to the Swami telling him that Kalyani asked me to give it to him. In the package there was a brand new sacred golden necklace worn by a bride on her wedding day and kept for the rest of her married life. The Swami and I were both surprised. Apparently, just two days before, thieves broke into the temple and stole valuable jewelry. Just as he was regretting that the image of the goddess didn't even have the sacred necklace, I brought this package. "That lady is not really crazy, I know her," the Swami affirmed and pressed the necklace to his eyes. I related the incident to Kalyani upon returning home. "Did you know before that this was going to happen?" I asked Kalyani. Kalyani poured abuses on me as a response. To show her gratitude to U.G. for his help, Kalyani performed the services of cleaning the house and decorating it. U.G. used to say, "I can't afford a rich servant like you, Kalyani." She would never let anyone else do the household chores. When U.G. got angry at her, she used to hurry everyone with an authoritarian tone. One day after she finished her work she said to U.G., "Goodbye, Sir, I'll see you again." U.G. said, "Why see me again? Don't." "I shouldn't come? If I don't come to torture you, who will?" "Why do you want to torture me? What did I do to you?" "Because of the sins you committed in your past life. You must suffer the consequences of torturing your wife in this life. "

She said this and left. We all laughed loudly. I felt that Kalyani must have had some extrasensory powers. U.G. says that they are commonly found in crazy people. But Kalyani's case is different. She is a veritable deity for Dr. Siromani of Hyderabad. Some friends of U.G. used to make fun of Dr. Siromani by calling her Devotee Siromani. She used to send clothes and lots of mangoes to Kalyani and to U.G. Once U.G.'s daughter, Bharati, came to Bangalore. That morning her husband, Mr. Rayudu, was asking about the Skanda Nadi in Bangalore. He was wondering if the nadi could find any solution to some of the problems that bothered him. Kalyani said, "Sir. You are the son-in-law of such a great man as U.G., yet how come you are seeking the help of the Nadi man? Show me your hand, and I will tell you what you need to know." He was surprised at this and showed his hand to her. She looked at his hand from some distance and said, "You will get a promotion in your job. Your boss who has been pestering you will get transferred and you will get his job." After a few days, it exactly happened just as she had predicted. Kalyani used to collect a lot of flowers from somewhere and shower them on U.G. She used to ask, "Sir, when will my ex[husband] take me back? When will you send me to my daughter?" When U.G. would reply to her, "Forget all that Kalyani. None of that will happen," she would look disappointed and leave. Finally, I did run into her husband once in Bangalore. He told me he didn't have any objection to her coming back. "But she must quit her roaming around and begging and remain at home," he said. Kalyani smiled apathetically, on hearing this. "I can't see any difference between the street and my home, what can I do?" she explained. Her husband returned to Delhi. Her daughter, Sobhana Rangachari, was a great singer. She died in Hyderabad in a fire accident. I offered to take Kalyani to Hyderabad. She said, "Never." She said with conviction, "My daughter is still alive. I don't believe all those rumors." Kalyani had a good singing voice. She was born in a family of great singers. I used to go into ecstasies hearing her singing the compositions of Tyagaraja, sitting in front of the picture of her favorite deity in her room. When I offered to record her singing she turned my offer down. When once I started recording secretly without her knowledge, she stopped her singing, became abusive and cried. But U.G. always used to ask her to sing whenever he gave her money. Sometimes he would stop his conversation and ask her to narrate incidents of her life in the mental hospital. Kalyani continued her visits even after we moved to Poornakutee from the Anjaneya Temple Street. Meanwhile, she had an attack of breast cancer. No matter how much we tried to persuade her to undergo treatment, she refused. Finally, her chest became like a big open wound. Before she died in 1990, U.G. went to visit her once. She came running to the gate,

crying. I was so sorry to see her in that state. U.G. tried to give her some money. She did not take it. "Please grant me death, U.G. Sir! That's what I need," she begged, crying. U.G. remained silent. He stood quietly holding her hand. She died soon after. The day before she died, Suguna and I went to see her. She invited us in. She gestured for us to come in from her bed where she was lying. She showed us all her belongings in the room and said, "All these and whatever else I have belong to U.G. sir." Within a year after Kalyani died Valentine passed away. The seven thousand rupees that remained of the money which the Australian friends of U.G. gave Kalyani for medical treatment became the starter money for the school founded in Valentine's name. *** Meeting new friends -- Indian Institute of World Culture Everyone knows in Bangalore the name of the Indian Institute of World Culture. The late B.P.Wadia and Sophia Wadia founded the Institute in the Basavanagudi area in 1945. It served as a platform for many great native and foreign personages and intellectuals. Many intellectuals consider it a great honor to have the opportunity to speak in it. In 1972, the then Secretary of the Institute, Mr. Venkataramayya, invited U.G. to give a talk there. U.G. was already renowned as an international lecturer. He lost the urge to speak in public even before the Calamity. "We talk a lot when we don't know much. If we know a little, there is nothing to say," says U.G. After the Calamity, U.G. found no need for meetings and platforms. No matter how much U.G. tried to explain to him his situation, Venkataramayya would not take a "No" for an answer. Finally, either because of Venkataramayya's insistence or because of our persuasion, U.G. gave a talk on the stage of the Institute in the month of May, 1972. After the Calamity that was his first and last public lecture. That day the lecture hall was filled with people. Mr. Dilip Kothari, former Chairman of the Film Censor Board and U.G.'s friend from Bombay, introduced U.G. Notwithstanding the interruptions by Dr. Kothar's comments, the audience listened to U.G.'s talk spellbound. Many persons like Nagaraj, Radhakishan Bajaj, Rochaldas Shroff and Narayanachari, who were sold on J.Krishnamurti before, became even more attracted to U.G. as a result of that talk. *** Kumar, U.G.'s son In 1957, when U.G. was living in Chicago with his family, Kumar was born . U.G. raised his son for the first two years.

Kusuma, U.G.'s wife, was working in the World Book Encyclopedia. The turbulence in U.G.'s life, which started then, caused a break-up of U.G.'s family. He sent his wife and children back to India. Kumar stayed with his mother till her death in 1963. Since then he lived with his relatives, struggled to finish his matriculation in 1973 and ended up in Bangalore. He used to live with me and my younger brother in the house in Anjaneya Temple Street. 'Bujji' was his pet name. He was a bright and active kid. He didn't have a clear memory of having known his father. A belief that his father was responsible for the sad plight of his family was firmly implanted in him. No matter how much I tried to persuade him, I couldn't succeed in making him quit his hatred and anger toward his father. U.G. came to India in September that year. That was the first time Kumar met his father after many years. Kumar was then 17 years old. When his father said hello to him, he did not respond; instead, he turned his head reticently. He would avoid his father as much as he could. He didn't seem to notice what U.G. said or did. One afternoon, when we were all sitting on the front porch, Kumar was killing the red ants marching in a row on the floor. "Why, mister? Why are you killing them?" asked U.G., unable to bear that violence in front of him. "How shall I vent my anger, then?" replied Kumar, continuing to squash the ants on the floor with his foot. "Take it out on those you are angry with. What did the poor ants do to you?" as U.G. said this, Kumar looked at once at his father with rage and left the scene. That same son came to adore U.G. within a month. Even I, who was observing these incidents at close quarters, was astonished at the transformation in Kumar. U.G. used to give him money and ask him to do small errands for him. He bought him a bicycle to ride to his college. One evening, as Kumar was about to leave on his bicycle, U.G. enquired, "Hey, mister, where are you going?" "I am going to a movie." "You are going at this late hour? Will you be able to get a ticket?" As soon as U.G. said this, Kumar brought his bicycle back inside the gate. "Why, you are not going?" asked U.G., surprised. "When you mentioned it, I knew I wouldn't be able to get a ticket. Why should I go that far? It's a waste," said Kumar as he was going into the house. I was astonished at the faith Kumar had acquired in even casual remarks of U.G. When Kumar was completing his 18th year in 1974, U.G. said to him, "You are an American citizen by virtue of your birth in the U.S. You must make up your mind, before you are 18, as to whether you will find a place for yourself in the U.S., or you are going to waste your talents staying here in India." By that time, Kumar already was in the habit of treating his

father's words as Gospel. U.G. rendered him the minimal help he needed to get to the U.S. "This is all I can do for you. Whether you will sink or sail will all depend on your own abilities," exhorted U.G. saying goodbye to him. Kumar arrived in a country where he had no one to support him. He faced many odds there. Yet, in a period of about ten years he started an independent business and got married. When I met him in a hotel in New York in 1986, now a bona fide American entrepreneur, my joy and amazement knew no bounds. *** A Sardarji's palm reading My marriage with Suguna was settled in 1974. After U.G. and Valentine returned to India, they kept asking me when my marriage would take place and on what day. Valentine was curious to see my prospective bride. I wrote to Suguna's brother asking him to bring her to Bangalore. Valentine was very pleased to meet Suguna. "She looks like a baby squirrel," remarked Valentine to me. Valentine was very fond of squirrels. "From now on Chandrasekhar's life will be smooth sailing," said U.G. contentedly. "What day is the wedding? We are leaving the country on December 25. We want to see Chandrasekhar as a married man before then," said U.G. to Suguna's brother, persuading him to arrange a date for the wedding before then. But even in November we didn't get word from Suguna's family as to on what day the wedding was going to be performed, and U.G. meanwhile kept asking: "The wedding must take place before we leave. Why haven't they contacted you yet?" One afternoon, we were all sitting in the porch when an old Sardarji walked in and asked if anyone of us wanted our fortune told. U. G. asked him when Kumar would be going to the U.S. The Sardarji looked at his palm and said, "He is going to go in six months." Then U.G. pointed me to him and asked him when I would be marrying. I never was interested in showing my palm to anyone, but I showed it on U.G.'s insistence. "The marriage will occur in a month," the Sardarji said. "That's enough. We need not know what will happen later," U.G. said, pulling my hand away from the Sardarji. That day Volcker, John Allen and Dr. Lynn all had their palms read by the Sardarji. Everyone was astonished at how accurately he told about everyone's past and future. We all gave him some money. "All this is because of your grace; I don't have much to do with it," as he said this, the Sardarji bent forward to touch U.G. U.G. moved away from him, and no matter how many times the Sardarji asked to touch U.G., U.G. did not let him touch even his hand.

We received the wedding invitations a week later. The wedding was to take place on December 20. Valentine was very eager to witness the wedding. But U.G. prevented her. He told her: "It's hard to arrange for your stay in a remote village. The couple will come to Bangalore on the third day after the wedding. You can see them then." When Suguna and I arrived in Bangalore on December 24, Kumar met us at the doorway. "U.G. is at Brahmachariji's ashram. He told me to tell you to come there tonight even if you are late," Kumar said. We instantly hired a taxi and drove to the ashram, which was about 20 kilometers away from Bangalore. "I told you that they would come no matter how late it is in the night," U.G. said to those around him, seeing us approaching from a distance. The next day was Christmas. Our wedding feast and our bidding farewell to U.G. -- both happened rather unostentatiously. *** "Consider me as part of the furniture" -- Nagaraj Nagaraj was the private secretary to the Postmaster General of Karnataka and also the secretary for the Shorthand Association. He never married. "The cigarette is my Beloved," he used to say. After hearing of U.G. and meeting him, he became disillusioned with J.K. [J. Krishnamurti]. After that, whenever U.G. came to Bangalore, Nagaraj would apply for two or three months' leave from his office and spend that time with U.G. Just as he would usually go to his office carrying his lunch in a tiffin carrier, he would also bring his lunch to the house in the Anjaneya Temple Street. "U.G., consider me as part of the furniture here. I have nothing to ask of you. Please let me just hang around here. That's all I want," he used to say. He wrote down in shorthand in his notebooks the questions U.G.'s visitors would ask and also reported on the events that occurred around U.G. Those records became our major preoccupation after U.G. left India: Nagaraj would type up his notes, make copies and distribute them to all our friends. We would read and enjoy them. Mind is a Myth is a book that came out of those notes prepared by Nagaraj. Nagaraj retired after we moved to Purnakutee. He asked U.G. to help him quit his habit of cigarette smoking as he was wasting a lot of money on it. U.G. answered, "Double your quota. Don't stop smoking." Nagaraj didn't heed this advice. In spite of U.G.'s advice, Nagaraj quit smoking and sank into a heavy depression. About a year later, one morning, he got up from sleep, drank his coffee, went to bed again and went to sleep forever. It took me a long time to collect myself after his death. Whenever there was a mention of Nagaraj during conversations,

U.G. used to say to divert us, "Where did Nagaraj go? He is here with us." Maybe he is with us while I am writing this. Nagaraj, are you listening to your story? Among all the friends that gathered around U.G., Nagaraj was my most intimate. I can't speak enough about him. The Sundays we spent transcribing his notes on U.G. in his office working for hours together, the phone conversations we would have with U.G. from that office, the funny jokes Nagaraj would tell -- the more I think of those memories, the more forlorn I feel. *** "You are the only one who gives what I need free of charge" -- Rochaldas Schroff Rochaldas Shroff was a billionaire. His ancestors migrated from the Sindh area of Pakistan. He was a member of the 'Radhasomi Path' started by Sawan Singh Maharaj. For forty years he practiced the 'Surat Sabd Yoga' taught by his teacher. He was over sixty years when he met U.G. At first, in his broken English, he used to pester U.G. for liberation. "I have nothing to give. Go and ask your guru," U.G. used to tell him. "Your teaching that 'There is nothing' is our everything. You please give me that," he used to say cleverly. U.G. would get angry at him and start scolding him. If U.G. said, "You have so many gurus. Why do you come here instead of going to them?" Rochaldas would reply: "U.G., all they want is my money. You are the only one who is giving me what I need free of charge. When you ask me to get out, I feel as if you are saying, 'Get out of these worldly involvements;' and if you tell me not to come back, I feel as if you are saying, 'Don't come back into the cycle of death and rebirth;' and, if you tell me, 'You will not get anything here,' I feel as if in this moment, right here I am filled with the Infinite. How can I not come to you again and again?" When U.G. would hold his head unable to answer Rochaldas, Nagaraj would then jump with joy saying, "Great, you have met your equal in Rochaldas, U.G. I will salute you if you can silence him." One day, Rochaldas was reluctant to leave even after spending a long time with U.G., and stayed downstairs even after Valentine and U.G. retired upstairs after their lunch. He had a habit of muttering some holy names or prayers within himself when he wasn't talking to anyone, and he was doing so at this time. In a little while U.G. came downstairs and sat in a chair in front of Rochaldas. He said seriously, "Look Rochaldas, it's useless to think of jnana and moksha after amassing millions and billions. You must let all that wealth go. Not just give it to your children. That won't mean anything. There is a line in a poem which says, 'On whomsoever my grace falls, him I will rob of everything.' You must first let everything go

and become a pauper. Then God will think of bestowing grace on you." Rochaldas was truly terrified by these words. Ever since then, he stopped pestering U.G. about liberation. But he still would go look for and bring people who would provoke U.G. with their questions, and thus make him talk. He would go on missions to visit great scientists, doctors and philosophers, and he would tell them about U.G. and bring them to him. It was owing to his initiative that the NIMHANS doctors came to U.G. for discussions. He used to call the visitors of U.G. 'bakras'. 'Bakra' means sheep in the Sindhi language. His implication was that all those visitors were sheep that were victims of U.G.'s eloquence. If a new bakra arrived who could stand up to U.G. in conversation, Rochaldas would be mightily pleased. He would say, "U.G., when you talk I hear the divine flute of Krishna. All I want is to keep listening to it." He would even listen to U.G.'s tapes during the nights. Rochaldas had three heart attacks before he was seventy five, but he didn't worry about them. He visited U.G. everyday whenever U.G. came to Bangalore. Although he had three or four cars, Rochaldas would travel in an auto rickshaw to save money. A day would not go by without U.G. making fun of Rochaldas's miserliness: "Would you have come here if I charged you one rupee per visit? Tell me the truth, Rochaldas!" Rochaldas would smile and nod in agreement and say, "It's true, I would not have come." Once Rochaldas invited U.G. to his house for lunch. Julie Thayer accompanied U.G., and Rochaldas introduced his whole family to U.G. Did you complete all the arrangements for the distribution of your property [to your successors after you]? Did you prepare your will yet?" U.G. asked Rochaldas. Rochaldas replied, "No, not yet." He was not willing to distribute his property even to his own immediate relatives. Finally, U.G. made Rochaldas agree to soon make those arrangements. The faces of the family members expressed gladness at this. In this context, U.G. asked Rochaldas, "If you had a way of saving all your property for your next life, would you have distributed your property to your children?" "Not on my dead body," replied Rochaldas with conviction. U.G. laughed. One day, Rochaldas was not feeling well. Doctors asked him not to get out of bed. Soon after they left, he called U.G. and told him that he felt like visiting him, and asked him if he could come. "I won't let you, if you come in an auto rickshaw. You must come in a car," said U.G. He came and sat for a long time that day in Poornakutee. He left for home around two o'clock in the afternoon. Two hours later we received the news that Rochaldas had died. "What an easy death!" I thought. I remember his saying goodbye to everyone before he left.

*** "That Krishna and this Krishna say the same thing" -- the Swami of Udipi In 1972 U.G. went to Udipi along with Valentine. If one goes from the Tirthagundi Coffee Estate to Mangalore, Udipi is on the way. There are eight Maths [monasteries] there, all belonging to the Madhva tradition. The arrangement whereby a different head of Math ascends to the Principal Pitha once every two years is called 'paryaya' [turn]. That year it was the paryaya of the Acharya [teacher] of the Adamara Math. The Adamara Math Senior Swami had heard about how a younger swami, belonging to one of the eight maths, had relinquished the headship of the Pitha after meeting U.G., and had then taken to family life and also supported himself by working at a job like everyone else. The Adamara Swami too felt like seeing U.G. and invited U.G. to accept his hospitality. "If I come to your Math, would I have to wear clothing appropriate to your ritual rules? I wouldn't be allowed with my pajama and lalchi. Besides, Valentine also will have to come with me. She is a foreigner," said U.G. trying to discourage the Swami from inviting him. The Swami reassured U.G. that he could come dressed just the way he was and bring Valentine as well. "But, please don't force me to sit with you to eat. That's all I ask," he said, repeating his invitation. He arranged to serve U.G. and Valentine a tasty meal with twenty five items. He sat in front of them while they ate their lunch, and they talked about many things. After listening to U.G. for a while, the Swami said to his disciples, "That Krishna and this Krishna say the same thing." Then U.G. remarked, "Among the three Acharyas I like Madhvacharya the most." The Adamara Math Swami was flattered with this remark, believing that U.G. was admiring his tradition. "Why, U.G., why?" he asked with excitement. "It is because of Madhvacharya that Udipi restaurants sprung up all over the world. Whether we go to New York or London or some other place, thanks to those restaurants, I can find the idlis I need." When U.G. finished saying this, the Swami looked hurt. Being bluntly honest and outspoken is unique to U.G. He doesn't wait to consider how the other person will take what he says. I think that he alienated even people close to him by this quality of his speaking. But as for U.G., he would say, "I can't lose a friend I don't have."

The following happened about twenty years ago, when we were in the Anjaneya Street House. One day, Professor N.A. Nikam came with Dr. Ramakrishna Rao. Prof. Nikam had retired from being the vice-chancellor of the Mysore University. Dr. Ramakrishna Rao did his doctorate under his supervision. Rumor had it that, years ago, the then Maharajah of Mysore, Jayachamaraja Wadayar, recognized the high level of scholarship that Nikam had in Advaita Vedanta, and got him to write his speeches. Prof. Nikam handed a copy of the brand new book he wrote called Bhagavan Ramana to U.G. and said, "I want your candid opinion on this." U.G. replied without taking the book, "I am sorry. I don't read biographies, much less autobiographies." Nikam's face turned pale upon this. U.G. must have been the only person who had ever turned down a book offered by him. *** B. L. Narayan Before he ever met U.G. for the first time in Bombay in 1972, B.L. Narayan, having been influenced by the teachings of J. Krishnamurti, had started the Oasis School in Hyderabad. He came to Bombay to hear J.K.'s talks and thus heard of U.G. He had invested all his personal property in the school and thus became bankrupt. He was keen on making the school into a model school. He wasn't concerned about its revenues. After he met U.G., his outlook underwent a change. "There is a great demand for schools today. It's best to set aside all your ideals and run a school merely as a business," U.G. advised Narayan. Narayan invited U.G. and Valentine to visit his school in Hyderabad. The Oasis school is situated in a big building on a large site of four or five acres. Apparently, it is still one of the best residential schools in Andhra Pradesh. After Narayan's death the school changed hands many times. From 1972 to 1980 -- for seven years -- U.G. and Valentine used to spend two to three weeks each year at the Oasis School. It was there that U.G.'s boyhood classmate, Mr. Prasada Rao, came to see U.G. He, Mr. Sripada Gopalakrishnamurti, Narayan and some other friends, all used to have discussions with U.G. Narayan, upon U.G.'s suggestion, gave Hanumantha Reddy a teacher's job in his school. Thus, a fairly large group of people gathered there, including Gopal, Shanta, Satyavati Reddi, Siromani, and Rajasekhar Reddi, whenever U.G. visited Hyderabad. In April 1980, U. G. came to India unexpectedly and stayed for a month. In May, he went to Hyderabad and stayed with Narayan for a week in the Oasis School. That was the last time he saw Narayan, for just a few days later he heard the

news that Narayan died of a heart attack. *** Sitaramayya -- U.G.'s father In 1977, when U.G. was in Hyderabad, news arrived that U.G.'s father, Mr. Uppaluri Sitaramayya, was on his death bed. Relatives sent word to U.G. conveying his wish to see U.G. U.G. said, "If he sees me, he will die. If he wants to stay alive, he shouldn't see me." But he couldn't very well turn down the request of Valentine and Narayan; so he went to see his father in his step-brother's house. Apparently, his father cried holding U.G.'s hands. "I probably met my father about seven or eight times in my life. I haven't had any more contact with him than that," says U.G. *** Shanta of the Oasis School A young lady called Shanta used to work in the Oasis School office. She was twenty five years old at that time. Narayan gave her the job of taking care of U.G. and Valentine when they were guests of the school. Shanta felt that she could ask for nothing better. She used to spend all her time accompanying U.G., or running his errands, and taking Valentine for walks. I think it was in the year 1978. When U.G. came to Bangalore that year, he thought it would be nice if Shanta came to Bangalore for Christmas. He asked Nagaraj to write a letter to her on behalf of all our friends. "U.G. says that he won't stay in Bangalore if you don't come. You must come at least for our sake. If Mr. Narayan doesn't grant you leave, you should resign the job, if necessary," Nagaraj wrote in the letter. Shanta rushed to Bangalore as soon as she got the letter. Since then, her enthusiasm knew no bounds. Her feet wouldn't stay on the ground, as she felt that U.G. invited her specially to take care of him. She was overwhelmed with the regard he showed for her. In just a few days, she became so dependent on U.G. that she felt she couldn't live without him. She made serving U.G. the purpose of her life. At times when U.G. was annoyed with her, she used to cry. Meanwhile, the time came for her to return to Hyderabad. Just then U.G. fell ill. He was lying in bed one day with a fever. She sat outside his room, without eating or drinking, with a crestfallen face. She would pester U.G. hour after hour asking him each time,

"Would you like me to mix some gruel? Would you like some fruit juice now?" She would listen repeatedly to Balamurali's song, "I can't live without you..." on the tape recorder. She would think of U.G. while listening to it and start crying. It was sad to watch her in that state. That evening some people came to see U.G. "U.G. is resting; you can't see him yet. Please sit down and wait for a while," Shanta told them. Usually, if anyone came to see him, U.G. never liked to tell them to wait, or to make them wait. U.G. did not tolerate it even if Valentine did something of that sort. After about half an hour, U.G. came out of his room on some errand, saw those people waiting for him, felt sorry, and asked Shanta, "Why didn't you tell me that someone was here to see me?" Shanta answered, "You weren't feeling well. I thought you were asleep. So I didn't wake you up." Then, while U.G. was talking to his visitors, Shanta went to the post office, phoned Hyderabad, talked to Narayan and told him that U.G. asked her to stay because he was ill, and requested him to extend her leave by four days. After his visitors left, U.G. scolded her: "I was lying in my room reading the Time Magazine. Don't you know that if anyone came to see me, you should tell me at once?" Then he asked her, "What did you tell Narayan on the phone?" She replied timidly, "I told him I will come after four more days, when you get better." He asked, "Did you tell him that I asked you to stay? Or, did you tell him that you wanted to stay?" Then she told him the whole truth: she was afraid that if she told him that she would like to stay, Narayan wouldn't grant her the leave. Therefore she told him that U.G. wanted her to stay. When he heard this, U.G. got furious. "You can't stay here for one minute longer. You leave right now. You had the audacity to tell Narayan that I wanted you to stay! Pack up! You must not stay here even for one minute." Thus he made her get ready to go right then. Shanta broke down into tears. Her apology was of no use: "It was a mistake, U.G. Please forgive me just this once." Nagaraj and I also pleaded with U.G. to let Shanta stay at least for that night: "Why should she go alone on the evening bus? It will be safer for her to go tomorrow in the train," we tried to explain to him. "Nothing of the sort. Crying and tears don't touch me. She must pay for her mistakes. Let her go," he said and did not even let us escort her to the bus stand. Shanta left that evening, crying loudly. Later U.G. said, "The girl developed an attachment for me. That's not healthy. It's not good for her. It has to be nipped in the bud." Shanta never came to U.G. again. Later, after she married another teacher called Gopal, they both left the Oasis School.

*** Swami Poornananda Tirtha It was in March 1986. That being a Sunday I didn't have to go to work. I went up to U.G.'s flat early in the morning. Around 10 o'clock, Swami Poornananda Tirtha showed up at the gate parking his car on the side of the narrow road. We all addressed him as 'Swamiji' even after he renounced his sannyasa and became a householder. During the early sixties, when he was delivering lectures on Vedanta in the city, people thronged in thousands to hear him speak. He was well known for his revolutionary ideas in the spiritual field. He always stressed on the practical aspects of Vedanta and ridiculed the traditional ritualistic approach in attaining self-realization. He had a huge ashram in the Kerala State from where he hailed. Every year he would visit Bangalore where his followers would arrange his lecture series. He encouraged some of our friends like Dr. H. R. Nagendra, Professor Satyanarayana Sastri, Srikantaiah, Anantaram and others to form a spiritual group called 'Jnana Sadhana Sangha'. Those were the hey days for Swamiji -- until he got involved with one of his lady disciples running a women's hostel in Basavanagudi. Eventually when he announced to the wide world his decision to give up Sannyasa, his own admirers became his sworn enemies. It was at that time that we were attracted to Brahmachariji living in a cave near the Shamkara Math and leading a secluded life. Though all my friends deserted Swamiji after his marriage, for my part, I always continued my contact with him. By then, Swamiji had come under the influence of J. Krishnamurti's teachings. He was meeting J.K. regularly and was intimate with him. Swamiji told me once that he considered self- realized masters like J.K. and U.G. as his own fathers and revered them. He said that he had taught J.K., who was all eager to learn any technique to keep his body in a fit condition, a special kind of breathing technique called 'Antariksha Pranayama'. That day, when Swamiji visited U.G., the conversation naturally turned around J. Krishanamurti's death which happened a few days before. "How can such a man die of cancer?" wondered Swamiji. U.G. smiled and said, "Why not? Why do you think that such people will not die of cancer?" He added: "Do you know that in his interview with David Bohm, J. Krishnamurti even made statements to the effect that such people [as himself] would live eternally? What sort of a fellow do you think he is?" Swamiji looked a bit puzzled. "Why can't you brush him aside sir!" U.G. asked him. Swamiji smiled and said, "He was a nice man. A lovable man." " I agree with you. But that doesn't mean you should swallow whatever he said. I

always said, ' I like Mahesh but not his films.' So, that fellow [J.K.] may be a phony. Why can't you brush him aside?" asked U.G.. Swamiji was silent. After some time, he narrated an incident concerning J.K. At that time Swamiji was suffering from acute pain due to the formation of stones in his kidneys. One day, during his informal chats, Swamiji told J.K. about his problem. "What is the best treatment for that, Sir?" enquired J.K. Swamiji replied that he was advised to undergo ultrasonic treatment. In that treatment the stones in the bladder are pulverized, without a need of surgery. Swamiji added, "But, if a person like you has intense feeling towards me, I am sure of being cured without having to go through any treatment." J.K. looked into his face and said, "Do you know that Sir? Then you can forget about the treatment." However, after six months, Swamiji had to submit himself to the same medical treatment in London and free himself from the pain. "So, it was medical technology that came to your rescue ultimately" quipped U.G. Swamiji nodded his head. *** I remember vividly the first meeting of Swamiji with U.G. That was in the year 1976 when U.G. and Valentine were staying in Sannidhi street. Rochaldas accompanied Swamiji. I felt very happy that at last Swamiji could come to meet U.G. As he heard of U.G.'s anti-J.K. approach Swamiji was reluctant to see him earlier. U.G. sat with all of us on the carpet. Swamiji looked very relaxed in U.G.'s company. He then fired the first salvo at U.G. "Sir, I want to know the difference between the two happenings -- enlightenment and Kundalini awakening: which one happens first to a person?" U.G. instantly replied: "They both occur simultaneously. There is no time gap at all." Swamiji was visibly shaken at the tone of authority in U.G.'s voice. After that U.G. harangued non-stop, for more than an hour, touching various aspects such as enlightenment, spiritual sadhana, the Natural State. Luckily we had recorded the talk on that day. Nagaraj later transcribed the tape and most of its contents found their place in U.G.'s first book The Mystique of Enlightenment. That day, just before taking leave from U.G., Swamiji hesitantly asked, "U.G., I quite agree that nothing needs to be done to come into our own Natural State. But, should we not, at least, try to keep the doors and windows open and wait for the Otherness to enter?" U.G., with all his seriousness, slowly said, "Sir, if that were to happen, it hits like a hurricane uprooting the whole edifice. It doesn't really matter whether you close or open the windows or doors." Swamiji stood speechless for a while. U.G. smiled and gently touching his shoulder showed him the door. From that day Swamiji always came to see U.G. whenever U.G. happened to be in Bangalore. Having observed both U.G. and Valentine supporting themselves on their own meager resources, Swamiji many times offered to pay for their

expenses. He asked me whether he could bear a part of the burden of their maintenance. When I declined, trying to explain the fiercely independent nature of U.G., he started pleading: "Shall I at least send my cow's milk for their use? Shall I offer rides in my car whenever he feels like going out?" Tears swell in my eyes when I recall Swamiji's genuine concern for U.G. and Valentine. Swamiji would never miss a chance to talk about U.G.'s high spiritual stature in his public discourses and talks. "If you are really interested in meeting a true jivanmukta, there is one here right now in the city, camped in Basavanagudi. Go and meet him," he would exhort his audience. Shanta Kelker, the lady who later authored the exquisite book, The sage and the Housewife, on U.G., was one of those who were inspired by Swamiji's remarks. The last time U.G. saw Swamiji was when he received the news that he was dying of brain cancer. Swamiji wanted to see U.G. It was such a pathetic scene. His wife, otherwise a bold lady, was all shattered. She wept bitterly praying U.G. to save her husband. U.G. stood silently at his bed side. He took Swamiji's hand into his for a while. There were tears in Swamiji's eyes when he bade good- bye to U.G. with folded hands. 1. The young boy in the Katha Upanishad who wanted to know the secrets of life and death from the God of Death, Yama. 2. Mention of this event is also made in the book Sringeri Revisited which Mr. Tummalapalli published in 1969. 3. The Swami's private chambers were located in a garden called Narasimhavana on the far side of the river Tunga. 4. When he started his practice in Mangalore, he used to collect a fee of four annas per family per month. No matter how many people fell ill in the same family there was no extra charge. Dr. Prabhu thus earned reputation as a 'four anna doctor' in Mangalore. Soon his practice prospered and he earned millions of rupees. 5. "Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva were the three Acharyas [teachers] who founded three separate religious traditions, one after another. Each of them wrote commentaries on the three Books of Vedanta [Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, and Brahma Sutras] in support of their own traditions. They condemned one another's tradition. "My hats off to them for performing such an unparalleled feat," says U.G. 6. All the Brahmins who run the Udipi Restaurants are from the Madhva tradition.

PART THREE 11

Jnanasram and Jnanachakravarti It was October 1995. Swamiji [Brahmachariji] many times described dramatically the events that occurred around U.G. in Mysore at that time. Mahesh Bhatt reported in his own book [his biography of U.G. called U.G.Krishnamurti, A Life] the affairs that happened in Kodaikanal. It started on September 30, 1979. At 3:00 p.m. U.G. got off the plane with Valentine in the Bangalore airport, having arrived from Hyderabad. That was the ninth day of the Dasara festival. Ranganatha Rao and I were taking them to Jnanasram in a taxi. "When will Viswanath's house be ready?" U.G. asked. I told him it would be two or three days. Because he had no other place to stay, we had arranged for him to stay temporarily in Jnanasram. U.G. normally doesn't like to inconvenience anyone. But he does take liberties with Brahmachariji. On the way, he announced his immediate plans: as his friends Parveen Babi and Mahesh Bhatt were visiting him, he was planning to stay for a month in Kodaikanal in the South of India. Jnanasram is about twenty kilometers South of Bangalore, close to Bannerughatta. After Brahmachariji avoided with great difficulty the possible [mis]fortune of ascending the Seat of the Kudli Math, U.G. created for him the opportunity to build this ashram.With his ingenuity and incessant hard work Brahmachariji transformed the seven-acre barren land donated to him by the Government into a luscious garden. As well, he also built the Sakti Ganapati Temple in the Ashram. In course of time, he also built a school, a guest house, and quarters for those who would look after him. Brahmachariji said he owed it all to U.G.: when U.G. had first seen the barren land, he had put in Brahmachariji's hand the two rupees that remained after he had paid for a taxi that day, and he told Brahmachariji that this was his donation for the building of an ashram. Ever since then, whatever Brahmachariji touched turned to gold. Our taxi arrived in Jnanasram. Looking at the sign of the Ashram outside the gate saying, "Jnanasram," U.G. remarked that the major defect that the sign had was not to have an 'a' before the word "Jnanasram" [instead of 'Abode Wisdom', the sign 'Ajnanasram' then would read 'Abode of Non-wisdom']. We all laughed at the joke. Brahmachariji, whom we expected to see waiting for us at the gate, was nowhere to be seen. We surmised that he must have waited for us, and thinking that the plane arrived late, he must have gone to town to do some urgent chores. So we ourselves had to take care of the guests that accompanied us. Early the next morning at five o'clock, U.G. came and sat in the living room. "Last night that cobra came to visit me," he said. Our curiosity was aroused. Whenever he visited the Ashram, a big cobra used to visit him at least once. It was an

almost twenty-foot long venomous serpent. It would make big sounds with its large hood and wake up U.G. U.G. would open the back door of his room and go out and walk with the cobra for a little while. "Maybe because of the big rain last night, the snake was not as fast as before. It crawled and moved slowly. It has become very old. Still, how beautiful it looks when it crawls in its zig-zag fashion!" U.G. told us. "In this desolate place, the cobra has been protecting me for all these years. Some great person is visiting in this form, " said Brahmachari. His cook sometimes fed milk to it. Other people normally couldn't find it, but when U.G. would arrive at the Ashram, the cobra seemed to know, and would come to U.G. at night, and then disappear. The next afternoon at exactly 3:00 p.m., Jnanachakravarti, an astrologer, entered, opening the gate with a friend of his called Anand. Jnanachakravarti was well dressed in the Indian fashion with a red shawl around his shoulders and a glow on his face. As they approached us, we all promptly made room for the two guests on the green lawn. After being introduced to U.G., Jnanachakravarti sat with everyone on the lawn. U.G. was mocking the Hindu traditions and religious ways in his usual manner. In about half an hour Jnanachakravarti abruptly interrupted U.G. and raised an objection: "Mr. Krishnamurti, many of the criticisms you have made have been made before by others. You must have the spirit of tolerance to not only reject the useless elements in our tradition, but to select the best. The scriptures don't approve of someone being a teacher merely because they are engaged [lit. rooted] in Brahman. He must also be tradition-bound. Only such persons are fit to be world teachers." U.G. did not reply. "Please furnish me the horoscope of U.G. Right now I will examine it minutely and analyze the status of his spirituality on the basis of scriptural authority. If I am offending his admirers, please forgive me. But I can't tolerate blasphemy," he said emotionally. U.G. quietly went in, brought a copy of his horoscope and handed it to Jnanachakravarti. Just as Jnanachakravarti started studying the horoscope, his facial expressions changed. He admitted that, without a doubt, it was the horoscope of a jivanmukta. He quoted many verses from astrological texts to support his statements. We were all stunned. *** No difference between an ashram and a brothel.... The next day, October 3, 1979, Mahesh Bhatt and Parveen Babi arrived from Bombay. That same evening they all went with U.G. and Valentine to Mysore in a car. My friends and I also went and everyone stayed in the University Guest House arranged by Professor Ramakrishna Rao of Mysore University. We all ate at Prof. Rao's house. As Brahmachariji hails from

Mysore, he stayed in his own large house built by his father, the ownership of which was a source of dispute between himself and his brothers. Something interesting happened on October 4. Prof. Ramakrishna Rao went to the university on some business. U.G., Mahesh, Brahmachariji and some other friends of Brahmachariji were sitting in the hall [of the Guest House]. One of them was Mr. Gundappa, a retired commissioner of police. Brahmachariji and his friends were all ardent followers of Sankara. U.G. seems to take pleasure in making fun of Brahmachariji when he gets a chance. Sometimes this can go on beyond tolerable limits and Brahmachariji would go into a rage. Then they would both calm down and laugh very loudly. That day, however, Brahmachariji was in a terrible mood. As if he didn't notice any of that, U.G. kept on making fun of him: "Why start an ashram? What's the difference between an ashram and a brothel? Prostitutes are better: they merely sell their body for a livelihood. In your ashrams you sell gurus. After so much education and becoming an I.A.S. officer, why did you have to stoop down to selling Sankaracharya?" Brahmachariji became furious that he was made fun of in front of everyone. "Mahesh, I am not going to remain with this man for one more minute. When Ramakrishna Rao returns, tell him that I went back to Bangalore," he said angrily, and without heeding Mahesh's requests, rushed out of the house. "U.G., Brahmachariji is really leaving in anger," Mahesh was shouting loudly. But U.G., on his part, said quietly, "He is not going anywhere. He will come back. Wait and see." Meanwhile, just as he left the house and went some distance, Brahmachariji ran into Prof. Ramakrishna Rao. All his anger returned when he saw the latter, "What kind of a demon are you having as your guest? Is he a Brahmajnani or a big demon?" he shouted in anger. Ramakrishna Rao held him by his shoulder and tried to comfort and pacify him. Meanwhile, a Brahmin passing by saw them and begged pitifully, "Sirs, I am hungry. Please give me a rupee. I will read your palms and tell your fortune." Ramakrishna Rao found a golden opportunity in this. "Brahmachariji, I agree with what you say. Let's take this palmist with us and expose U.G.'s true colors. If it turns out that he is a trickster and a phony, we will drive him out of the house. Come, let's go home," he said. Brahmachariji was pacified. "Hey, you Brahmin, you must look at the palm of someone and tell us the exact truth. If you read his hand carefully and tell us what kind of a man he is, I will give you ten rupees. If you talk gibberish, I will make your head sing songs! Be ready!" he said threatening the Brahmin. In a couple of minutes they came into the house. As Brahmachariji looked at U.G., he curtly asked that U.G. show his hand to the palmist. U.G. extended his arms to show both his palms like a good boy. None of the people who had assembled in the hall understood what was going on; they were watching the spectacle. The lean Brahmin looked at U.G.'s right hand

for a couple of minutes and started blinking with wide eyes, howling, "O ho ho!" Brahmachariji held him by the arm and shouted at him, "Speak clearly in words." The Brahmin didn't hear him, and kept on studying the palm. After a little while, he said again, "Abbabbabba, ahahaha....!" and was gloating in his own ecstasy. Brahmachariji could not contain his anger and got ready to hit him, "Are you going to say something in words, or should I break your head?" "Sir, what can I say? I have never seen a palm like this before in my entire life. It surpasses that of the Rama Incarnation and the Krishna Incarnation. This palm is that of Srimannarayana [Vishnu]," the Brahmin said. Brahmachariji couldn't utter a word in response. He collapsed in the sofa dumbfounded. U.G. assessed the situation. He looked at the palmist and made an offer: "If you can look at his palm and tell how many children he has, I will give you twenty rupees," and showed him Brahmachariji's palm. The Brahmin scrutinized it for a minute and laughed, "He is a staunch bachelor. He was never married. How can he have children?" Brahmachariji then also joined the roomful of people there who laughed at this accurate deduction. Thus U.G. and Brahmachariji tested each other and found out that the stuff the other person was made of was genuine and not bogus. *** Chamundeswari Temple That evening Dr. Ramakrishna Rao offered to take Mahesh and Parveen for a darshan in the Chamundeswari Temple. U.G., Valentine and Brahmachari also accompanied them. No one knows how he got wind of it, but by the time they arrived there, the priest in the neighboring Lakshmi Narayana Temple, Anandji, came running to U.G. to receive him. Anandji was a devout man who remained a bachelor all his life, performed daily worship in the Temple, and, like Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, spent his life meditating upon God. Many years ago, a friend had taken him to U.G. As soon as Anandji had seated himself in front of U.G., intense movement of the Kundalini energy had started within him. Ever since then, he placed a picture of U.G. at the altar and worshipped it every day. The priests of the Chamundeswari Temple, showing great respect, led Valentine, Parveen and Mahesh, along with U.G., directly into the inner sanctum. Brahmachariji later said that the honor that was done to them that day was not normally accorded even to the Maharajah. It was inconceivable that people like Valentine, Parveen and Mahesh, considered untouchable [Mlecchas] by orthodox Hindus, would be allowed into the inner sanctum where even orthodox Brahmins

would not normally be allowed. A special Puja was performed for them. It was another wonder that the sacred conch shell, [called Panchajanya] belonging to the Goddess, and the Sri Chakra that was installed there were also brought to them, and U.G. was allowed to touch them. That honor too is not normally accorded even to the Maharajah. From the moment he stepped into the inner sanctum, U.G. was feeling the effect of the energy that was there and appeared to be in a semi-conscious state. The Srichakra and Panchajanya stirred the energies in him.When he was about to stumble, Brahmachariji held U.G. Mahesh later said that he had seen on U.G.'s forehead a swelling of the skin in the form of the vertical marks worn by Vaishnavaites(namas). The swelling had remained for a length of time. For the duration of his stay in the Temple, there was also another mark evident around U.G.'s neck in the form of a serpent. When asked about the nature of these swellings, U.G.'s explanations were always of a scientific nature. He says that the worship that was done with great devotion and devoutness, and the Yantras [mystical diagrams on metal plates] that were installed there -- all fill the area with powerful vibrations. These swellings are an end-result of U.G.'s body mechanisms reacting to these energy vibrations. They show up for a little while and then subside. U.G. says there is no need to attribute any more spiritual significance to such manifestations. Brahmachariji's body mechanism, however, cooled itself down by drinking milk from four coconuts as soon as the group came out of the Temple. Valentine was the only person who remained unaffected by any of this. Everyone else was affected in some fashion or other by the energy present there. *** Dr. Kameswari Anyone who knew Kameswari would feel as if they had known her for many years. No one knows how she acquired that special trait. "She is a child of the Devi [the Mother Goddess, called Ammavaru in Telugu]," says General Ramanayya, a friend of Kameswari. While she was still in her mother's womb, her father, Pillalamarri Sundararamayya, adopted monkhood and acquired the monk's name of Ramananda Swami. He gave her the mantra of the Sixteen Syllables and taught her to worship the Goddess Lalita Parameswari. Since then, she filled her life with the Goddess. She later got married, bore children and became an Army doctor, but she never left the presence of the Supreme Goddess Lalita. Her world was immersed with the Goddess. Even when she worked in the Army, she would take leave for the ten days of the Dasara festival and dedicate herself to the Goddess. The Goddess is not just a conventional goddess to her nor is she an

abstract idea in her mind. To Kameswari the Goddess is a unique expression of [energy] which embraces the whole universe, comforts it with love, and showers mercy upon it. It was Kameswari's being stationed as an Army doctor in Wellington, a town in the Nilgiri hills, that prompted U.G. to go to Ooty that year. Ever since she became acquainted with U.G., Kameswari had been inviting him to visit Ooty. For some reason, the climate of Ooty did not appeal to U.G. Although he liked cool mountainous places, he did not like Ooty. Nevertheless, because Kameswari lived there, he wanted to go to Kodaikanal via Ooty. Kameswari's joy knew no bounds when she learned that U.G. was coming with Parveen and Mahesh. "I ran immediately to the Post Office and sent a telegram saying, 'Welcome.' I also wrote a letter sitting right there. I asked him not to disappoint me, as I was so happy about his coming. Just before I got U.G.'s letter that day I was thinking during my Puja, 'It would be nice if U.G. would come here. I can't even take off from work this year on leave.' I had that intense desire to see U.G. I went to the hospital, and in the morning mail I received the letter from U.G. saying they were coming. I can't express adequately my joy," she wrote to me in a letter. On October 5, 1979, two days after Mahesh and Parveen arrived from Bombay, U.G. started with them on a trip by car to Ooty. Kameswari's anticipation was like that of Sabari in Ramayana. After U.G. and company set foot in her house, she had one of her two feet in the kitchen and the other in the living room. Unable to bear that, U.G. settled himself down in the kitchen. He would taste the curries she made, add salt to her cooking and converse with her. Kameswari enjoyed this very much. He even kept her company when she sat for her Puja, so that she wouldn't miss him even there. He and Parveen would seat themselves on either side of her. He asked her to utter the mantra aloud when she was meditating. When she finished, he said, "Good, perfect." One day, when she was doing her Puja, he said, "Parts of the mantras are very powerful. They feel as if a great energy is flowing. But at some places the flow is interrupted. I will correct them if you recite them aloud." When she corrected them and recited them again the next day, he said, "Now they sound right." U.G. once commented on Kameswari's Puja: "When she recited those mantras, those sounds caused strange movements and experiences in me. It must be such experiences some people aspire for when they do japa [uttering holy names] and tapas [austerities]. The question, 'No matter how mechanically they are recited, is it right to brush them aside as foolish?' arose in me. 'No, you mustn't,' came the reply." It doesn't mean that from that moment U.G. encouraged Puja and Japa. It's not U.G.'s manner to condemn anything as a foolish practice if it is done in good faith, sincerely and with a pure mind. Kameswari's Puja altar includes U.G.'s photo along with the pictures of all the gods and goddesses. When she was offering food ritually to the gods, U.G. said in a chiding fashion, "I am here in person. Why do you offer the food to my photo? Give

it to me. I am hungry." "There are other 'dignitaries' there besides you. So you must wait till the Puja is over," she said, calming him down. Kameswari, thus, had the good fortune of, after identifying U.G. as the fulfillment of her thousand wishes, having him come in her own home, of serving him, of worshipping him, of making offerings to him, and of enjoying such worship. On the full moon day in October, during her Puja, Kameswari was overwhelmed by her devotion and emotions, lost her senses, fell into U.G.'s lap and started crying loudly. Parveen, too, put her head in U.G.'s lap and cried like a baby. Perhaps, the full moon filled U.G. with the splendor of motherly love: quietly he consoled them both. U.G. told me later that it was on that day he had a vision of the Sage Agasthya. He is not wont to talking about such visions in a respectful manner. His manner is to treat with equal lightness visions of both Donald Duck and Sada Siva. So, it is not easy to extract the details of such visions from him. When I asked him, "How did Agasthya look?" his answer was, "He looked short, fat and dark." Everyone knows that Ooty is called the Place of Agasthya. Yercaud also is said to be a residence of Agasthya. U.G. and company stayed in Ooty for four days and then left for Kodaikanal. "As soon as they left for Kodai, I felt that my body became lifeless, as though all the energy in it was pumped out of it like air," Kameswari said. *** "This is not the time and this is not the place to die" -- Kodai U.G. wanted to stay in Kodaikanal for a month. Parveen and Mahesh accompanied him there. Also, Mr. Narayana from Hyderabad and an English friend called Bernard Selby wanted to come there to spend a few days with U.G. Meanwhile, in Bangalore, we received an unexpected telegram from U.G. saying, "We are cancelling our stay in Kodai and starting back on the 18th. Please arrange for our stay in the Ashram, if the house is not ready." We were at a loss as to what to do. We had to hurry to Jnanasram to prepare for their arrival. U.G. went directly to the Ashram on the evening of his arrival on Thursday, October 18, 1979. The next day Mahesh brought us to the Ashram in his car. "What happened, Mahesh? Why did you come back from Kodai so soon without spending at least ten days there?" I asked. "Ayyo, Kadavalai, Andavane! ['God' in Tamil -- one of U.G.'s pet phrases]," he screamed, but didn't answer my question. I felt that he hadn't recovered yet from some shock: something extraordinary must have happened. In the course of time I

was able to extract the story, some from Mahesh, some from Valentine and some from U.G. The article that Mahesh wrote later called, "To Hell and Back," was published in the Times of India. It mirrors the incidents which occurred in Kodai. In that article, he says, "....Kodai took the ugly shape of a page from Dante's Inferno." They had found an old bungalow called the Bhut Bungalow in Kodai to stay. Mahesh did not like the place, and was panicstricken as if it was a Ghost Bungalow ['bhut' means Ghost in Hindi]. As soon as they got there, it rained torrentially. The nights were pitch black. Parveen was mentally ill, and her illness became worse from the bad weather. She would sneak into her room and lock herself in it. U.G. was unwell because the air was so humid and his aesophagus problem recurred again. U.G. looked like Yama in person. If anyone tried to talk to him about anything, he flew into a rage. There was a fireplace in the hall with a fire going on, which seemed to serve as a constant reminder of U.G.'s fiery visage. If anyone by mistake mentioned J.Krishnamurti, U.G. would rise into a fury like a cobra whose tail had been stepped on. "You and I are going to witness in person the demolition of J.K.'s teachings. I am not exaggerating," U.G. roared fiercely. "J.K. is merely a medium. He is used to speaking as if some spook possessed him. Otherwise, there is nothing to him," he would say, brushing J.K. aside. One day, his aesophagus closed completely. U.G. couldn't even swallow water. If he forced himself to eat anything, he would throw it up. He was thus unable to eat or drink anything for thirty six hours. To add to that illness, as if in sympathy, Parveen stopped eating and drinking as well. Thus, there was more than one crisis on hand. U.G. felt as if his body was all stirred up and wrung out. He used to writhe in pain on the bed. No one knew what would happen. One night, his pain became unbearable. He felt as if his end was nearing. Mahesh was at a loss as to what to do. U.G. said to Valentine, "It looks as if my time to die is nearing." Valentine replied quietly in a jocular fashion: "This is not the time and this is not the place to die. It's not practical." U.G. could not help himself from laughing at these words. "That was the only laughter that echoed between the walls of the Bhut Bungalow in a week," said Mahesh. Perhaps because of the irrepressible laughter which burst out of U.G. in response to Valentine's remark, his aesophagus loosened up. He was able to sip and take in water. A little later, he was able to eat food. When U.G. said, "That's enough of the Kodai experiment. Let's go to Bangalore," everyone breathed a sigh of relief. The chauffeur of the car was also gladly relieved. Immediately, everyone said good bye to Kodai and left. "In the Natural State there are no higher or lower levels. Even before [I went to Kodai] there were no boundaries in my consciousness. It seemed like consciousness flowed with the body as its periphery. This is not an experience. In order to communicate with you I have to use a metaphor. After I returned from Kodai, even that 'bank' [boundary] has disappeared.

Everything is a vast unitary stream. There are no obstacles to this flow. It's hard to express it in words. It's even more difficult to understand what I say," said U.G. the day after he returned from Kodai. *** "Get lost" -- vision of J.K. It was November 4, 1979, the full moon day of Kartika. When he saw me early in the morning, U.G. said to me, "You know what happened today? Earlier this morning J.K. appeared." I was shocked. How could J.K. appear? Was that in a dream or was it real? U.G. smiled. "This was not a vision; nor was it a dream. I never have dreams. J.K. appeared in person," he said. What did he say after he appeared? "He looked at me and said, 'Old chap! Your teaching is too radical and too revolutionary. Water it down.' I told him, 'Get lost!' and he disappeared," said U.G. *** 12 Kusuma -- U.G.'s Wife "I used to hear that there were great loyal ladies who lived in such unity with their husbands' lives that they didn't even preserve their own lives. I didn't realize until after she had died that none of them would even stand comparison with my mother," said Bulbul [Usha, U.G.'s daughter] speaking the other night about her mother, Kusuma. "You became a great king because our Janaki kept your company, or else was it your own achievement?" so said Tyagayya defiantly. True. What did Sita gain by marrying an ideal person like Rama? How happy was Kusuma made by loving him with all her heart an idiosyncratic individual like U.G., let alone being married to him? Kusuma was a faithful wife who suffered for her husband's pleasure, and with a view of not standing in the way of his attaining his goals. She was caught in the dilemma of, on the one hand, wishing to provide for her children's future, and, on the other hand, wanting to be in her husband's presence, a presence which was so vital for her own well-being. Finally, she punished herself cruelly and separated herself from him. She became an object of scorn in her relatives' eyes, but she wouldn't care about whatever they said about her. If anyone even hinted at blaming U.G., no matter how close a relative that person was, she would

lash out at him like a veritable Kali. For the sake of her children, she sacrificed her life of 35 years living in the remote village of Pulla. Apparently she said to her sister Minakshamma before she died, "Sister, thus I not only became unwanted by my husband but also am becoming useless for my children. What good is it for me to live?" When Bulbul was narrating to us these events on the terrace that night, we could clearly imagine Kusuma's suffering. We could understand why she had moved away from U.G. We also knew how inevitable the occurrence of such an event was in U.G.'s life, this separation from his wife. When Bulbul was crying loudly because she couldn't contain the pain of her memories, we too cried with her silently. If a person who first didn't want to marry at all, melted like snow as soon as he saw Kusuma and decided that if he ever married it would be only to her, we need not be surprised. Her personality, beauty and nature were of that sort. Why did such a person move away from U.G. in her final days? U.G. had told her that she could leave the U.S. and return to India. All her efforts to persuade him to return with her to India, to live together as one family with him and the children as before, failed. U.G. was not interested in the family life. When she thought of the future of her daughters, her heart sank. She insisted on keeping them in India because she worried: "In this God-forsaken country my children will get used to this culture and will marry Christian men." She wanted to send them to school in India. She wanted to raise them according to the Indian cultural tradition, and not to play with their lives. At least that was her intention. U.G. was adamant: "If you want, you can go. You can stay in India with them. I will live alone in this country or another country, but I won't return to India." By then he knew that separation with his wife was inevitable. He knew that his life was like a rudderless boat tossed away by Fate and drifting in the ocean of existence. Having no alternative, Kusuma returned to India alone. She left her life behind with her husband and landed in India looking like a lifeless corpse. It's a wonder why the earth didn't take her into its womb immediately. Circumstances in India were topsy-turvy. Nevertheless, Kusuma was brave and would not admit defeat. She believed that U.G. would someday return to India for her sake and for their children's sake. She kept her hope alive as long as she believed that even though U.G. had no use for her, her children needed her. She bore and defied all hardships as well as her ill-health. One day in Pulla, Bharati [U.G.'s eldest daughter] and Bulbul came from Visakhapatnam for vacations. When she assigned small tasks for them, they wouldn't do them. She was hurt by their complaints. No matter how low a state she was in, she was so proud that she wouldn't let others know of it. When she was trying to feed him, and he wouldn't eat, she learned that the four-year old Bujji [Kumar, U.G.'s second son] had gone to someone's house and ate a full meal that afternoon. She put the little kid down and made marks on his stomach with a hot pancake

turner. Then she started crying. How many could understand the agony and tears of that mother! She didn't like to inform her husband of her hardships. "Wouldn't he suffer from pain knowing that I and the children are going through such hardships? How sorry will he be!" she thought. Her brother-in-law, Mr. Mrutyunjaya Rao, trying to set right the affairs of this family, and with the intention of calling U.G. to India, wrote a pleading letter to U.G. When she learned of it, Kusuma became a veritable Durga [a fierce form of the Mother Goddess], picked the gentleman up by grasping him from the sliding chair he was sitting on and threw him on the floor. She was so proud. "Sister, he will come. U.G. will certainly come. Didn't he treat me like a princess? My prince will come on the seven horses." Kusuma used to daydream in this fashion. She had great imagination and an artistic bent of mind. There was not a moment when she didn't think of U.G. She used to reminisce about the days of her married life with U.G. and talk about them to her sister. She recalled that one day she and U.G. went to some town. The hosts had given them a room to sleep in. There was only a camp cot, which would sleep one person, in the room. Kusuma became angry when U.G. told her, "Kusuma, you sleep on the cot. I will spread my bed on the floor and sleep on it." "He used to bring me anything I wanted. He used to send me a sari wherever I was. When he asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I told him I wanted a sari. I was so foolish. Why did I ask for a sari?" she said, sobbing. Perhaps Kusuma was regretting that she should instead have asked him to stay with her. "Sister, my husband used to look like Nagayya [a famous South Indian movie star]. He was fair, with long hair, white shirt and a panche [loin cloth] -- he looked like a prince. Her tapas was only to constantly think of U.G.'s appearance." Kusuma's daily routine was to recall the memories of the days she had spent with U.G. in the U.S. and talk about them. *** 13 Valentine de Kerven It was January 20, 1991. That night Valentine died suddenly. She simply dropped off while she was sitting in a chair eating her dinner. The houselights were shining brightly. The light of Valentine, however, which had been shining brightly in our Poornakutee in Bangalore, went out permanently. Just the day before, my wife Suguna had gone to Bapatla after she had

heard of the news of her brother's death. She had been quite distressed at the prospect of leaving the company of Valentine. She had grown fond of Valentine during the past five years, during which time Valentine became like a small baby in the cradle. The lives of our children, Aruna and Archana, were intertwined with Valentine's, as they had known her ever since they were little. They had played games and sang songs to her while she sat in her chair. They teased her and argued with her. As soon as they came home from school they would hug her and shower her with kisses. How could the children bear this sudden death while they couldn't even imagine living in her absence? Unfortunately, I wasn't present when Valentine died that night. Just about an hour and half before her death, I had to go out on an errand. When I left I told her in English that I would be returning soon. She tried to smile and held her right hand out as if to shake hands with me. That once-strong hand which had previously given comfort and solace had now shriveled. I pressed her hand gently and said, "Au revoir, Valentine." She replied, "Au revoir," in a weak voice. That was her last good-bye, her last handshake. All was over by the time I returned home. Those hands had become cold and lifeless. My children and her servants were the only ones present when she closed her eyes forever. It was pitch dark that night. Valentine's dead body was in the front room . And I was there, like a zombie, keeping a watch over the corpse on the sofa. The city had quietened down. Everything was still except for the occasional roar of a vehicle rolling down the street. I heard a mild moaning from the next room, which died down after a while. How could I carry on the next day without Valentine? My brain was getting numb as soon I began to think about it. I felt my stomach turning. I was suffering from some inexpressible anxiety. What, indeed, was my connection to her? Who was she? What brought her that great distance, from the place she was born, the Jura mountain region of Switzerland, to Poornakutee in Bangalore, the place where she died? Who was she? Who were we? Who was U.G.? It was thirty years ago when an anonymous person who lost all his roots and bearings, and who was roaming in foreign countries like a vagabond, was blown into the Indian Consulate office in Geneva. Valentine sponsored him with her generosity and handed over to him all she had without a second thought. It was a new turn in U.G.'s life. Who of us had ever dreamt that such a person as Valentine would live her last days and die from Alzheimer's disease right in front of our eyes in Bangalore? In her years of stay here, our neighbors had also become involved with Valentine. How could I console them? What should I say to comfort them? I was reminded of the mocking voice of Chalam in a letter he wrote to me many years ago, "Am I still in that lowly state of pining after those who are dead?" I laughed apathetically within myself. This had to be my plight. My mind was to be ripped apart over and over again. Valentine lay still over there, as if she was sleeping.

"The body is a fortuitous concourse of atoms. There is no death for the body, only an exchange of atoms. Their changing places and taking different forms is what we call 'death'. It's a process which restores the energy level in nature that has gone down. In reality, nothing is born and nothing is dead," I was recalling U.G.'s words with Valentine's dead body in front of me. The mind was in no state to contemplate philosophy or science. As ocean waves break upon rocks, all my thoughts were being shattered within myself -- I was frozen with the weight of my sorrow. Suddenly the telephone rang, breaking the silence in the hall. U.G.'s voice on the other end. He was calling from California. There was no emotion in his voice even when he learned of Valentine's death. He reminded me of the important things I had to do: "Valentine is a foreigner. That's why you should inform the police of her death. They may give you trouble, if you don't. You must also inform the Swiss Embassy. When will Suguna return?" I said, "She must be returning by tomorrow afternoon. I will wait till she comes back." "All right. Cremate the body in the corporation crematorium. Valentine never believed in the rituals performed after death. She was born a Christian, but she never attended the Church even once," U.G. said. There was a moment of silence. U.G. again asked, "What will you do with the ashes after the cremation? "I will immerse them in the Western section of the river Kaveri near Srirangapatnam," came the spontaneous reply out of myself. U.G. was laughing mildly. There was a pity in that laughter for the sentiments I couldn't free myself from. *** Some days later, in the morning, Archana was peering from behind me at the papers I was writing on and asked, "Are you writing the biography of Valentine, daddy?" I nodded 'Yes' and looked into her face. The shadows of memories of Valentine flashed in her facial expressions. Who cares about Valentine now? She never even cared about herself. Even when others reminded her of her adventures and sacrifices, she used to smile as though they were quite ordinary. Valentine had no more interest in her own extraordinary personality than the interest a flower has in its own fragrance. Even those who knew U.G. intimately knew her only as a companion to him in his world travels, and as an extraordinarily generous person who made it possible for U.G. to stay in Switzerland, but who knew of the heights of her magnanimity? Ever since the time of the Calamity, U.G. and Valentine used to come to India every winter. U.G. used to say, "We are

migratory birds: we come to this country to escape the winter in Switzerland. Here, unlike in that country, we can find all our conveniences. There is no other higher purpose in coming here." Valentine always liked to travel to India, and particularly to visit Bangalore. She enjoyed spending her time in Bangalore standing in the upstairs balcony of the house and watching the huge peepul tree in front of the Anjaneya temple. She would watch the large bats that hung on its branches upside down and made screeching noises, as well as the ladies who circumambulated around the statues of snakes installed at the bottom of the tree. Also, there were the lazy buffaloes which were chewing their cud and swatting themselves with their tails, and the vendors who were selling a variety of wares from their push carts on the street. Everyday she would go enthusiastically half a dozen times to the nearby Gandhi Bazaar to buy something there. Until she was past eighty, she used to go around alone in the vicinity of Basavangudi in Bangalore. Valentine had the habit of walking fast. At times, I myself found it difficult to catch up with her. When one of us tried to hold her hand to be sure that she would cross the street safely at the cross roads, she used to shake our hand off and walk away swiftly. Everyday in the evenings many friends used to gather to talk to U.G. Usually the conversation turned around trivialities. If there were any serious discussions with U.G., Valentine never moved out of the room. She used to sit there for hours and listen to the conversations with keen attention. I asked her once, "For how many years you have been listening to U.G.? Don't you get tired of it?" She would reply, "No matter how many times I've heard him, each time it seems new." Valentine used to cook for U.G. while they were in Switzerland. Even there she enjoyed walking several times from their home on top of a hill, about a hundred feet high from the street level, to the market place, going with ease down and back up the narrow pathways, on the pretext of needing to buy things. In Bangalore, in the house where we used to live, children used to gather around Valentine. She would be nice to them and pass out food to them. Children played with her and sang songs to her. She used to clap with them in joy, even though she did not understand their songs. Aruna and Archana felt great pleasure in spending time with her. They used to bring their friends and introduce them to her proudly and showed her off to them. It was Valentine's habit to say "Voila" for "all right". When she rolled her eyes and nodded her head while looking at the children, saying, "Voila", they would join her by singing, "Voila, voila, voila, voila Valentine." She too would burst out laughing along with them. The children liked to make her say their names. They would have great fun when she had trouble pronouncing their names. Valentine had other close friends in Bangalore: the squirrels which jumped off from the coconut tree to the balcony and came close to her, the stray street dogs that approached her when she walked on the street fast, the baby monkeys saying

hello from the peepul tree across the street from the temple, the lambs nibbling grass in the park -- Valentine was great friends with all of them. She took photographs of each of them and preserved them carefully. When she made a photograph, even the ugly face of a baby donkey would look like the face of a royal horse. Once she took me upstairs, offering to show me something interesting. She took me to her table and silently signed to me to be quiet. After a little while, she very gently pulled the drawer open and asked me to peep in. There didn't seem to be anything in there except rubbish. When I looked in more closely, there were four dark mice moving around. Their mother, sitting in their midst, lifted her head and looked at me fearlessly. In her look I could see the confidence she had that as long as she had the protection of Valentine no one could harm her family. Valentine closed the drawer quietly and said looking at me, "Aren't they cute?" I can still remember clearly the glee of joy I saw in her eyes. She was quite preoccupied with that family of mice, as though feeding them bread crumbs and cookies and protecting them from the cat that came to say hello to her were her life aims. Valentine by nature was not very talkative. She could communicate much better with her eyes and facial expressions than with words. She knew several languages. Her mother tongue was French. She also knew English, German, Spanish and Italian well. After coming to India she learned a few Hindi words. When I sang poems that I wrote about U.G. in Telugu, I could see her feeling sorry that she wasn't able to grasp the poems directly in Telugu, rather than in my English translation. I felt that I didn't need any more recognition for my poems than that. Later, she bought the book called Telugu in Thirty Days and tried seriously to learn the language. But she got confused with the Kannada vocabulary that was used around her, and soon quit her effort. Soon after that, Valentine reached a state beyond our words and language, a thought-free state where there was no need for words. When Valentine was eighty-two years old, that summer she fell ill for a week in Bombay with sun stroke. From that time, although her physical health recovered, her memory deteriorated day by day. The doctors who examined her in the United States determined that she was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Medical experts are now of the opinion that the disease is spreading worldwide without regard to young or old. Scientists are still unable to fathom this disease which afflicts the memory-storing neurons in the brain. It's appropriate here to remind ourselves of U.G.'s warning: "Man's brain is intended to run efficiently this machine called the body. If the brain is used for any other purpose, mankind cannot but be subject to the horrible disease called Alzheimer's. It's not cancer or AIDS that will wipe out mankind which has appeared on the earth as a scourge among living species; the Alzheimer's disease is soon going to spread like an epidemic," says U.G. With her memory loss Valentine also became less active. That's when U.G.'s troubles started. It was not easy for him to

take her along on his travels. Sometimes an American friend called Kim Lawrence used to take care of Valentine's needs and go around the world with both of them. For some days, the famous movie star, Parveen Babi, also served Valentine while she was traveling with U.G. But as Valentine grew older, and as her Alzheimer's disease was advancing, it became clear to U.G. that she could no longer travel. He felt that she needed to stay in one place for the rest of her life. It was our sheer good fortune that U.G. decided that Bangalore should be the last stage of Valentine's life journey and that she should be in our care. It was indeed our good fortune to have been of service to that extraordinary person in her last days. Before he moved Valentine to Bangalore permanently in September 1986, U.G. arranged a get-together of Valentine with her younger sister Rose and her elder sister Adrian. "Valentine has gone past the stage of being able to travel, and I cannot stop traveling for her sake. So, I am going to make arrangements for her to spend her last days comfortably in India. If you can arrange better facilities for her, I have no objection. I can hand her and her money over to you this instant and go my way," U.G. said to them. The two sisters declined: "Look at our own state. We ourselves are dependent on others in old-age homes. What good is our money to us? Valentine is many times more fortunate than us. Who else besides you can look after her better? You do whatever you feel is appropriate, U.G.," they said and bid Valentine a final good-bye. Later, a year before Valentine died, her younger sister, and then, a year after she died, her elder sister, died in Switzerland. *** Alzheimer's disease, which wipes out the 'self' and erodes the ability to recognize things, may be a frightening disease; in Valentine's case, however, it created situations which were amusing to everyone. The first incident of Valentine's forgetfulness which perturbed U.G. occurred in Switzerland: that year, as always, Valentine and her sister Adrian were reminiscing about their childhood events. After two or three hours Valentine suddenly turned toward Adrian and asked her seriously, "By the way, how did you happen to know about my childhood events?" Her sister was shocked: "What do you mean `how'? I am your sister!" "How could you be my sister? My sister is with me here. Look!" and she pointed to U.G. No one could say a word. Ever since then such forgetfulness became quite common. On some occasions when she was forgetful, we could not contain our laughter at the timely jokes Valentine used to make. When an acquaintance once asked her in the way of greeting, "Who am I Valentine?" Vale