00:00:00.0,00:00:00.98 The contents of this video are copyrighted 00:00:1.00,00:00:02.

98 You have permission to copy and distribute the contents on condition that 00:00:3.00,00:00:05.00 they are not altered in any way, no parts are removed, and no parts are added 00:00:5.02,00:00:05.98 Please mirror this video! 00:00:6.00,00:00:11.98 With us in this episode is Professor Palmer 00:00:12.00,00:00:18.98 When we met with him and showed him aspects of the scientific miracles of the Qu ran and Sunnah 00:00:19.00,00:00:21.98 he was *astonished* 00:00:22.00,00:00:22.98 He said 00:00:23.00,00:00:31.48 :"This is an *amazing* book. It describes the past, present, and future!" 00:00:31.50,00:00:42.48 But he is like other scientists. They are hesitant at first, then they declare w hat they believe 00:00:42.5,00:00:49.98 He presented a paper in Cairo about the miraculousness (of the Quran) in the fie ld of Geology 00:00:50.0,00:00:55.98 Then concluded his paper, saying 00:00:56.0,00:01:06.00 :"I don't know the cultural level of the people at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) o r their scientific level, 00:01:06.02,00:01:16.98 "but if it is the same as we know of early people and their modest scientific le vel that didn't have such abilities 00:01:17.00,00:01:20.98 "then there is *no doubt* that this knowledge which we read now in the Quran 00:01:21.00,00:01:27.48 "is light from the divine knowledge that has been revealed to Muhammad (pbuh)" 00:01:27.5,00:01:32.98 Here he is ending his research with the following statement 00:01:33.0,00:01:35.98 :"We *need research* into the history of early middle eastern oral traditions, 00:01:36.0,00:01:41.98

"to know whether in fact such historical events have been recorded 00:01:42.0,00:01:47.98 "If there is no such record it *strengthens the belief* that god transmitted thr ough Muhammad bits of his knowledge 00:01:48.0,00:01:52.98 "that we have only discovered for ourselves in recent times 00:01:53.00,00:01:58.03 "We look forward to *continuing dialogue* on the topic of science in the Quran 00:01:58.05,00:01:59.98 "in the context of Geology 00:02:00.00,00:02:02.98 "Thank you very much!" 00:02:03.00,00:02:04.98 In the 1980's Allison (Pete) Palmer was invited to participate in what he was to ld was 00:02:05.00,00:02:06.98 an exercise to try to reconcile modern scientific discoveries against the Quran by re-interpreting the meaning of the Arabic words 00:02:07.00,00:02:08.98 After helping with this exercise his comments were taken out of context and pres ented to the world 00:02:09.00,00:02:11.03 as if Pete Palmer believed there was good scientific reason to believe the Quran was of divine origin 00:02:11.05,00:02:13.03 These clips were compiled into a video called "This is the truth" - various clip s are available on YouTube and pro-Islamic websites 00:02:13.05,00:02:16.03 This is the truth uncut - Allison (Pete) Palmer 00:02:16.04,00:02:21.52 Yeah, so, if we start I'll ask you to say your name 00:02:21.53,00:02:23.98 so that people will know who it is I am talking to 00:02:24.0,00:02:27.18 So could you tell me your name please? 00:02:27.2,00:02:29.79 My name is Pete Palmer 00:02:29.81,00:02:34.98 And is your alias Allison "open-bracket" Pete "close-bracket" Palmer? 00:02:35.00,00:02:38.28 The given name was Allison 00:02:38.29,00:02:41.06

My parents called me Pete from the start 00:02:41.07,00:02:45.19 Right okay, I wondered why you chose "Pete" 00:02:45.20,00:02:48.13 I wondered if that was a name you chose later, but no 00:02:48.15,00:02:51.98 They chose it because on their honeymoon they met an Italian fisherman 00:02:52.0,00:02:55.68 named Peter Pipperchelli, who they really thought was pretty neat 00:02:55.7,00:03:02.51 and after they gave me this family name, the "Allison" is my father's name and h is father's name 00:03:02.52,00:03:06.10 They said "That's not a name to call a little kid" 00:03:06.11,00:03:08.98 and uh... they didn't like anybody being called "Al" 00:03:09.0,00:03:12.98 and my middle name was already occupied by my mother's brother 00:03:13.0,00:03:15.98 and by one of my cousins who were in town 00:03:16.0,00:03:24.88 So there were too many Ralphies around so they just said they were going to call me "Pete" 00:03:24.90,00:03:31.19 You were featured in a video called "This is the truth" 00:03:31.20,00:03:38.84 which was a recording of various scientists at various different events 00:03:38.85,00:03:42.09 What I would like to ask you first... 00:03:42.10,00:03:46.98 What was your first point of contact in this whole affair? 00:03:47.0,00:03:50.98 Well the very first point of contact was the telephone call I received 00:03:51.0,00:03:56.48 in January of 1985 from Mustafa Ahmad 00:03:56.5,00:04:02.00 who is the north American representative of this group headed by Zindani 00:04:02.01,00:04:08.98 and he asked me if I would be willing to answer questions about statements in th e Quran 00:04:09.0,00:04:13.53

that had some scientific implications 00:04:13.54,00:04:17.58 and I said "Yeah I'd like to do that" and they said "Could we come out to Boulde r?" 00:04:17.6,00:04:18.74 He was in Chicago 00:04:18.75,00:04:23.26 "Could we come out to Boulder and could we do a meet?" 00:04:23.27,00:04:30.30 So I said yes and he arrived a few days later, I don't know how much later, with a colleague 00:04:30.31,00:04:34.68 with intentions of having me answer about thirty questions, and I said 00:04:34.7,00:04:40.33 "Wait a minute, I can't give you honest answers to most of these because these a ren't my field" 00:04:40.34,00:04:45.07 But then we talked and I agreed to try to line up some folks who might help them , where I could 00:04:45.09,00:04:50.98 and that was where we left that first contact, as I recall 00:04:51.0,00:04:54.88 Was one of the people you recommended Bill Hay, is that right? 00:04:54.9,00:05:01.78 Yeah, I recommended... I didn't tell Mustafa that until I had checked 00:05:01.8,00:05:07.38 I had people I knew who I thought might possibly be open to having a conversion like this 00:05:07.4,00:05:11.28 Most of my colleagues wouldn't touch any kind of conversation regarding theology 00:05:11.3,00:05:13.46 with a ten foot pole! 00:05:13.47,00:05:18.58 So I knew Peter (Hildebrand) and I knew Bill (Hay) and so I checked with them an d asked if would they be interested 00:05:18.6,00:05:23.23 and they said that sounded kind of fascinating 00:05:23.25,00:05:27.86 During this phone call when they were explaining the purpose... 00:05:27.88,00:05:32.38 Now, you mentioned briefly what they said the purpose was 00:05:32.4,00:05:36.63

Can you elaborate on that at all? What they were saying was the purpose of this? 00:05:36.65,00:05:41.88 Well I don't remember exactly which one of several early contacts... 00:05:41.90,00:05:46.75 Probably know when he came out to my office I wanted to know the purpose, more a bout this thing 00:05:46.77,00:05:49.65 The purpose as I understood it 00:05:49.67,00:05:56.36 was any a periodic evaluation of statements in the Quran 00:05:56.38,00:06:00.18 to see how we understand those statements today 00:06:00.2,00:06:04.33 In that the Quran *had* to be the word of god and therefore 00:06:04.35,00:06:10.82 they wanted to know exactly what god had in mind [laughs] you know 00:06:10.84,00:06:15.34 That was what I understood we were doing was to try to clarify 00:06:15.36,00:06:20.78 how you understood these *vague* statements that were in the Quran in terms of m odern knowledge 00:06:20.80,00:06:22.55 Right, so by periodic then 00:06:22.57,00:06:27.88 does that suggest that he was implying that this is something that they do every now and again? 00:06:27.9,00:06:28.28 Yeah! 00:06:28.3,00:06:33.41 They look at the Quran, look at the words, look at what the science says, and sa y: 00:06:33.43,00:06:36.14 "This is what the Quran must mean in that case"? 00:06:36.16,00:06:38.07 Yeah, exactly! 00:06:38.09,00:06:43.58 So it was kind of a, well, effectively a retro-fitting exercise? 00:06:43.6,00:06:45.48 The thing is that's perfectly okay 00:06:45.5,00:06:49.06 you look in the old testament you get some of these vague statements

00:06:49.08,00:06:53.88 how would we understand how they came by these statements? 00:06:53.90,00:06:58.72 How did they get this information? How did they get these impressions? 00:06:58.74,00:07:02.47 And so we said "Yeah, I'm sure springs come out of the ground" 00:07:02.49,00:07:06.78 "and the rain, and the water cycle", we know a lot more about it now than they d id 00:07:06.8,00:07:11.48 but they had a vague perceptions of these things 00:07:11.5,00:07:18.98 During these early contacts I believe that they invited you to an interview in J edda 00:07:19.0,00:07:20.53 Yeah! 00:07:20.55,00:07:26.98 and they said that the purpose of this event in Jedda was the same thing I presu me? 00:07:27.0,00:07:32.88 Well I don't recall the reason they gave, what they specifically said was the pu rpose 00:07:32.9,00:07:36.31 unless I wrote it in that document I wrote after I got back 00:07:36.33,00:07:39.28 but I think they were basically vetting me 00:07:39.3,00:07:46.98 to see if I could be a part of this dog and pony show that we ultimately created that went around 00:07:47.0,00:07:52.18 I think that actually probably succeeded the Cairo meeting 00:07:52.2,00:07:55.98 The first meeting was in Cairo, a short time after I was in Jedda 00:07:56.0,00:07:58.91 a few months (later) I guess, I don't know what it was 00:07:58.93,00:08:04.48 It was fairly soon after I was in Jedda I was invited to come back to Cairo, bri ng my wife 00:08:04.50,00:08:07.91 and be a part of this conference 00:08:07.93,00:08:11.59 And I think...

00:08:11.61,00:08:17.70 that by then I had the written text of what I was trying to say 00:08:17.72,00:08:20.22 What I have now, my penultimate version 00:08:20.24,00:08:22.98 I have a whole bunch of versions without dates on them 00:08:23.0,00:08:25.41 so I'm not quite sure when they all came 00:08:25.43,00:08:30.76 but the penultimate version which was shortly before our last contact 00:08:30.78,00:08:35.26 is not that much different from what we started with, just a few minor tweaks 00:08:35.28,00:08:43.44 Always I would approve the text as I read it 00:08:43.46,00:08:46.98 As I would read it I would clear with Mustafa 00:08:47.0,00:08:52.68 so that he knew what I was saying and it was okay with them 00:08:52.7,00:08:54.98 So I didn't feel uncomfortable in the text 00:08:55.0,00:08:56.98 because in the text I was basically saying 00:08:57.0,00:09:00.47 "But we have to establish," that was the point of my text 00:09:00.49,00:09:05.28 "We have to establish there was no way for this knowledge to have been extent" 00:09:05.3,00:09:09.28 Because almost all the things that I was given 00:09:09.3,00:09:13.58 you could understand as being perceptions 00:09:13.6,00:09:18.40 extent at the time of the writing (creation) of the Quran 00:09:18.42,00:09:22.51 After your initial contact, your initial contact was January 00:09:22.53,00:09:32.19 the Jedda event according to the document you sent me was in August of the same year 00:09:32.21,00:09:36.61 and they did an interview with you in front of cameras, do you remember that? 00:09:36.63,00:09:41.38 How long did that go on for, do you recall?

00:09:41.4,00:09:43.38 I think I may have written that (down)... 00:09:43.4,00:09:47.28 It went on for parts of more than one day, I think it was a couple of days 00:09:47.3,00:09:52.42 They had a video studio at the Abdulaziz University 00:09:52.44,00:09:59.38 and in the studio were three or four members of the geology faculty at the unive rsity 00:09:59.4,00:10:05.18 each of whom had been a student of somebody I knew back in the U.S. 00:10:05.2,00:10:11.28 and they were there listening to this conversation as I was being video taped 00:10:11.3,00:10:11.98 [Phone rings] 00:10:12.0,00:10:15.16 Oh nuts, here goes my phone again! 00:10:15.18,00:10:20.98 Carry on and I'll keep recording 00:10:21.0,00:10:22.98 Palmers 00:10:23.00,00:10:25.68 (Listens) 00:10:25.7,00:10:29.98 No, I'm in the middle of a long distance Skype conversation, I can't talk. Thank you 00:10:30.0,00:10:34.51 Bah, I hate this. Money calls! 00:10:34.53,00:10:40.98 Even on a Saturday they want you to give a contribution to this, contribute to t hat 00:10:41.0,00:10:43.39 Sorry about that! 00:10:43.41,00:10:49.92 From your notes, you said that when you arrived in August 00:10:49.94,00:10:54.28 Zindani reinterpreted the English translations of the Quran 00:10:54.3,00:10:57.58 in order to make them more geologically accurate 00:10:57.6,00:11:01.14 and then you would say in front of the camera

00:11:01.16,00:11:04.58 what you and Zindani had agreed that this idea might imply? 00:11:04.6,00:11:05.53 Yeah! 00:11:05.55,00:11:06.98 Does that sound fair? 00:11:07.0,00:11:12.09 I think that's right, I don't remember the details of that but yeah... 00:11:12.11,00:11:17.85 I was trying to make sure that what he was getting was acceptable 00:11:17.87,00:11:21.96 in terms of what we now knew, so yeah 00:11:21.98,00:11:30.11 According to your notes this meeting ended with you being asked an unexpected qu estion 00:11:30.13,00:11:32.37 That I don't remember, did I say that? 00:11:32.39,00:11:35.68 "How could Muhammad have known?" 00:11:35.70,00:11:37.98 Well that, they probably asked that and I said 00:11:38.0,00:11:43.51 "We have to establish that, we don't know that" 00:11:43.53,00:11:46.03 I think that in most cases he would have had to have known 00:11:46.05,00:11:50.98 but we have to establish there was *no* way for him to know 00:11:51.0,00:11:54.98 And then you also said that Zindani asked to help you 00:11:55.0,00:11:58.28 to create a draft of a paper summarising the visit 00:11:58.3,00:12:02.04 which was going to be presented in... 00:12:02.06,00:12:04.58 I think that was the one you were going to present in Cairo, 00:12:04.6,00:12:08.38 so Zindani helped you to go through the draft of that paper did he? 00:12:08.4,00:12:10.98 Yeah, we worked that draft back and forth 00:12:11.0,00:12:14.38

It was Zindani and myself, and I think Mustafa was involved 00:12:14.4,00:12:17.14 I think we were co-authors 00:12:17.16,00:12:20.11 We were listed as co-authors 00:12:20.13,00:12:26.28 and we worked that over so that I was comfortable with the text 00:12:26.3,00:12:28.28 and they were comfortable with the text 00:12:28.3,00:12:32.38 but it was a text that was essentially sceptical 00:12:32.4,00:12:37.38 So the purpose of this wasn't really to 00:12:37.4,00:12:44.38 portray the opinion that this is all miraculous information? 00:12:44.4,00:12:46.44 Oh no! 00:12:46.46,00:12:47.96 It was supposed to be... 00:12:47.98,00:12:52.61 this is how we can intepret the meanings of these vague words 00:12:52.63,00:13:00.13 but we have to be sceptical about how people would have known this kind of thing ? 00:13:00.15,00:13:03.64 I mean, there was nothing in the geological stuff 00:13:03.66,00:13:08.69 that could not have been extent in knowledge in the middle east 00:13:08.71,00:13:14.50 The only part in all the various things we were given 00:13:14.52,00:13:20.07 that was difficult to understand as being extent knowledge was 00:13:20.09,00:13:22.82 this embryological stuff 00:13:22.84,00:13:26.24 But the geological stuff all of that, seemed to me... 00:13:26.26,00:13:27.97 was uh... 00:13:27.99,00:13:32.12 you could kind of fudge it to say, uh...

00:13:32.14,00:13:33.12 (Changes thought) 00:13:33.14,00:13:37.98 Those experiences were the kind of experiences people would have in the middle e ast 00:13:38.0,00:13:43.50 They could be known. There was nothing that precluded that 00:13:43.52,00:13:48.06 And of course the embryology part wasn't your field of expertise 00:13:48.08,00:13:52.18 No, but it created an interesting question because 00:13:52.2,00:14:01.00 how could you know about microscopic things long before the invention of the mic roscope? 00:14:01.02,00:14:02.28 So that was was just one of those things. 00:14:02.3,00:14:05.74 I said "Well there's got to be an answer, but I don't know what it is" 00:14:05.76,00:14:09.20 Was this a low-key event? 00:14:09.22,00:14:14.23 The one in Jedda was low-key 00:14:14.25,00:14:19.74 The one in Cairo had a big audience, it was mostly medical people 00:14:19.76,00:14:24.48 and of course the big stuff that they were excited about 00:14:24.5,00:14:26.48 was the embryological stuff 00:14:26.5,00:14:29.95 I don't think my stuff made much difference or much impact 00:14:29.97,00:14:31.98 but we during the time we were there... 00:14:32.0,00:14:34.98 and I wish I had written my notes down clearly 00:14:35.0,00:14:42.04 I met with, I don't know whether it was the Islamic Brotherhood, some major orga nism / group 00:14:42.06,00:14:46.13 I met with the secretary general of this group and I had conversations with him 00:14:46.15,00:14:50.25 and I just don't find in my notes his name or anything, but

00:14:50.27,00:14:56.55 we went to his home and sat around with a dozen people and had a conversation 00:14:56.57,00:15:01.80 It was kind of interesting but I didn't write down many of the details of that f or some reason 00:15:01.82,00:15:05.37 It wasn't directly related to the conference 00:15:05.39,00:15:11.48 but it was while we were in Cairo I had this opportunity to have this meeting an d conversation 00:15:11.50,00:15:15.48 I don't know whether it was the Arab league, I don't remember exactly what it wa s called 00:15:15.5,00:15:19.32 and I can't find a note that tells me 00:15:19.34,00:15:27.19 Yes, this is the Cairo meeting isn't it that happened late September until early October? 00:15:27.21,00:15:33.40 Yeah that was Cairo! 00:15:33.42,00:15:40.47 At the end of the event you all had a nice time at king Faruk's weekend palace I believe? 00:15:40.49,00:15:46.40 I don't remember the palace. I remember that there was some kind of a good dinne r, a banquet 00:15:46.42,00:15:47.98 but I don't remember where it was 00:15:48.00,00:15:50.48 The only palace I remember was in Islamabad 00:15:50.5,00:15:55.22 when we were in Zia Al Haq's palace 00:15:55.24,00:15:57.48 and he gave a lecture to the whole group 00:15:57.5,00:16:03.51 and we stayed for dinner. It was a spectacular, really neat event! 00:16:03.53,00:16:09.23 But that was in Islamabad, that was the next conference 00:16:09.25,00:16:12.76 Actually I remember when I was talking to Bill (William Hay) 00:16:12.78,00:16:20.20 I think it was you he said he was with when you noticed that there were no women present at the meal?

00:16:20.22,00:16:26.37 Yeah, and what was interesting there was one woman that we talked to 00:16:26.39,00:16:29.98 who was the vice president for education in Pakistan or something 00:16:30.0,00:16:32.32 well up high in the government, but it was a woman 00:16:32.34,00:16:36.21 and she and Pat my wife got talking 00:16:36.23,00:16:41.69 and we found out that she was very uncomfortable about coming to this meeting 00:16:41.71,00:16:47.24 because it was all men, she felt uncomfortable about it 00:16:47.26,00:16:49.36 We found that kind of interesting 00:16:49.38,00:16:54.35 that even though she was very high up in the government she felt uncomfortable 00:16:54.37,00:17:00.05 being in the conference. I think the women were there 00:17:00.07,00:17:05.00 there were the wives of myself and Peter Hildebrand 00:17:05.02,00:17:06.78 and this lady 00:17:06.8,00:17:11.31 they had separate table in the dining area 00:17:11.33,00:17:14.19 in Zia Al Haq's palace 00:17:14.21,00:17:17.69 but the woman said she was pretty uncomfortable 00:17:17.71,00:17:30.38 being included, in a sense because it was somehow not Muslim 00:17:30.40,00:17:40.44 (Pete Palmer has a short conversation with his wife) 00:17:40.46,00:17:44.73 Do you need to end early and do this another time? 00:17:44.75,00:17:45.98 What's that? 00:17:46.0,00:17:48.49 Do you need to end early and do this another time? 00:17:48.51,00:17:50.97 I'm fine!

00:17:50.99,00:17:55.56 This affair in Cairo I believe ended in a bit of a furor? 00:17:55.58,00:18:01.57 When you made a suggestion about the implications of Muhammad's illiteracy 00:18:01.59,00:18:05.36 No, that was in Islamabad 00:18:05.38,00:18:07.80 And that was after Cairo was it? 00:18:07.82,00:18:10.58 That was after Cairo! 00:18:10.60,00:18:13.08 Exactly when I do not remember what dates they were 00:18:13.10,00:18:19.44 we went to Islamabad and that was the conference where I responded to a couple o f Egyptians 00:18:19.46,00:18:25.79 who, when I suggested that we have to know there was no way for Muhammad to be i nvolved in this, 00:18:25.81,00:18:28.48 (the Egyptians) stood up and challenged me and said "But Muhammad was illiterate !" 00:18:28.5,00:18:32.28 and I said "There's a difference between being illiterate and being stupid... 00:18:32.3,00:18:35.48 "and I think he was probably a very brilliant man" 00:18:35.50,00:18:41.67 and that got me in trouble, rescued partly by a jet-black Somali supreme court j udge 00:18:41.69,00:18:45.65 who was trained in England and had perfect Oxford English 00:18:45.67,00:18:47.98 who stood up in the audience and said 00:18:48.0,00:18:55.91 "He's right. We have to know that there was no way for this knowledge to have be en extent in Muhammad's time" 00:18:55.93,00:19:00.99 That was a big audience, there were several hundred people there, a couple of hu ndred at least 00:19:01.01,00:19:04.98 and most of them were just hanging on these words about the embryology 00:19:05.0,00:19:14.56 and my stuff was pretty much peripheral because I didn't have anything that they

really could hang a case on 00:19:14.58,00:19:21.86 At the end of these events Zindani created this video collection called "This is the truth" 00:19:21.88,00:19:29.21 Which in summary is supposed to be a large collection of western scientists 00:19:29.23,00:19:34.49 that studied the Quran and all came to the conclusion 00:19:34.51,00:19:38.23 either that they thought it was from some divine origin 00:19:38.25,00:19:41.88 or that they were absolutely dumbfounded as to an explanation 00:19:41.9,00:19:44.74 but weren't quite prepared to make that leap 00:19:44.76,00:19:59.62 In your case what he says, I had someone translate it for me... 00:19:59.64,00:20:03.84 "I don't know the cultural level which the people at the time of Muhammad..." 00:20:03.86,00:20:09.32 I've got that quote here, yeah 00:20:09.34,00:20:16.47 Now that quote, yeah I've got that here. I'm not sure is that supposed to be a q uote from me? 00:20:16.49,00:20:21.84 Just before you reply to that can I just read it out for the sake of the recordi ng 00:20:21.86,00:20:24.75 So that people know what you are responding to 00:20:24.77,00:20:29.35 It says that you don't know what level the people were on at the time 00:20:29.37,00:20:35.50 (Loses place in the quote from Zindani's video) 00:20:35.52,00:20:40.90 Basically that these people couldn't have known these things, erm... 00:20:40.92,00:20:42.82 (Finds place in quote from Zindani's video) 00:20:42.84,00:20:47.38 "There is no doubt that this knowledge which we read now in the Quran... 00:20:47.4,00:20:52.87 "is light from the divine knowledge that has been revealed to Muhammad" 00:20:52.89,00:20:54.58

That's not me! 00:20:54.6,00:20:56.48 (Both laugh) 00:20:56.5,00:20:59.25 Not me! I never would have said that! 00:20:59.27,00:21:02.87 So at no point did you suggest that there would be no doubt 00:21:02.89,00:21:06.15 that this information in the Quran is from a divine origin? 00:21:06.17,00:21:12.12 Oh no! Because I was a total (sceptic) I totally didn't believe that that was (t he case) 00:21:12.14,00:21:14.70 There were rational explanations for everything! 00:21:14.72,00:21:19.41 Just because we couldn't understand how to explain a couple of them (the embryol ogy) that didn't mean 00:21:19.43,00:21:21.68 that that was therefore divine knowledge 00:21:21.7,00:21:25.56 I think we had to be sure there was not an explanation 00:21:25.58,00:21:36.13 and the one mystery was the embryonic stuff and I found an explanation that sati sfied me anyhow long after we had finished 00:21:36.15,00:21:41.51 I thought that this part of the video was a bit suspicious 00:21:41.53,00:21:46.72 because if you had said that there's no doubt that this is information from a di vine origin 00:21:46.74,00:21:50.04 that they would have said "Look what he said next" 00:21:50.06,00:21:54.58 and then put the video footage on of you saying those words 00:21:54.60,00:22:00.87 but effectively the most juicy part of what you were alleged to have said wasn't shown 00:22:00.89,00:22:03.12 And Zindani simply presented... 00:22:03.14,00:22:08.67 "Oh, by the way. After that he went on to tell me that he thought all of this wa s probably from god" 00:22:08.69,00:22:14.10

So I always thought that bit was a little bit suspicious to say the least 00:22:14.12,00:22:22.38 I never to my knowledge believed that this had a divine origin 00:22:22.4,00:22:26.98 It had a rational human origin 00:22:27.00,00:22:29.98 Another thing that I remember reading from that script 00:22:30.0,00:22:35.83 is that you were apparently astonished by the accuracy of the information in the Quran 00:22:35.85,00:22:39.98 and you said "What is this wonderful book?" 00:22:40.0,00:22:43.88 (Laughing) That doesn't sound like me at all! 00:22:43.90,00:22:50.07 I believe that the information he asked you to look at was something about the l owest point? 00:22:50.09,00:22:53.34 Yeah, that was in the first interview in Jedda 00:22:53.36,00:22:55.48 where they had this uh... 00:22:55.5,00:22:57.69 I brought my globe with me 00:22:57.71,00:23:00.23 I remember this globe, it's a really neat globe 00:23:00.25,00:23:05.70 it was put out by the national geographic probably forty years or more ago 00:23:05.72,00:23:09.46 They had this statement, and it was right there printed on the globe was 00:23:09.48,00:23:11.77 "Lowest point on Earth" 00:23:11.79,00:23:17.45 and so I said that's kinda neat that the Quran mentions that 00:23:17.47,00:23:22.94 but that doesn't prove anything particularly because they just happen to be in t he right area 00:23:22.96,00:23:32.14 How would you explain that information being within the possibility of human kno wledge of the time? 00:23:32.16,00:23:38.00 Is that something that you would be able to see, you would be able to look aroun d and say

00:23:38.02,00:23:41.29 "This looks like it is the lowest place in the region"? 00:23:41.31,00:23:46.58 I mean, the people of that time I think, yeah that was problably known 00:23:46.6,00:23:52.38 that that was the lowest point in their area / their world 00:23:52.4,00:23:58.78 It just happened that the Quran had it right, but it wasn't because it was a bit of divine knowledge 00:23:58.8,00:24:05.00 that was merely the middle eastern state of the union 00:24:05.02,00:24:09.78 So it was possible that it was known locally as "The lowest place"? 00:24:09.80,00:24:12.78 Yeah, sure! 00:24:12.8,00:24:16.98 We discussed this before and you said something about, it's possible to see 00:24:17.0,00:24:19.99 that this is the lowest place because it would be the only place 00:24:20.01,00:24:23.41 where you can see that you are lower than sea level? 00:24:23.43,00:24:25.22 Does that sound familiar? 00:24:25.24,00:24:26.10 uh... 00:24:26.12,00:24:30.97 I don't recall saying it quite like that because I wouldn't know... 00:24:30.99,00:24:36.36 I probably didn't think about it, how would they measure? 00:24:36.38,00:24:39.78 They would have to have some way of getting some crude measurement 00:24:39.8,00:24:45.68 that said this was lower than the Red sea and maybe that's all 00:24:45.7,00:24:48.85 they just figured that out, they had some sense of elevations by then, 00:24:48.87,00:24:53.90 and maybe the Romans had done that 00:24:53.92,00:24:59.98 They had that knowledge but I just thought it was kinda neat 00:25:00.0,00:25:03.74

that they had it as the lowest point and that's what the globe showed it as 00:25:03.76,00:25:08.17 but that didn't mean anything else! 00:25:08.19,00:25:13.34 Really this is basically the end of my prepared questions 00:25:13.36,00:25:19.15 There are a few question I will ask which are a bit silly 00:25:19.17,00:25:25.84 but I have to ask these because of the kind of responses I've had to my other in terviews 00:25:25.86,00:25:31.13 So the first one... 00:25:31.15,00:25:32.98 Did you become a Muslim? 00:25:33.0,00:25:35.43 No! 00:25:35.45,00:25:42.47 Have you been paid by me or anybody else in order to participate in the intervie w we are having now? 00:25:42.49,00:25:43.84 No, not a bit! 00:25:43.86,00:25:52.04 Have you been intimidated by anyone to retract your original statements? 00:25:52.06,00:25:58.78 No, my original statements as you've got them may not be quite accurate 00:25:58.80,00:26:02.37 but I haven't been intimidated by anybody 00:26:02.39,00:26:04.68 Are you (laughs) 00:26:04.70,00:26:08.25 Are you in fact an imposter? 00:26:08.27,00:26:10.32 What do you mean by that? 00:26:10.34,00:26:16.98 I don't know, could you possibly be an actor with a latex mask on? (Laughs) 00:26:17.0,00:26:23.52 No, I don't do all that stuff 00:26:23.54,00:26:26.60 I had to ask you that one because I have actually been asked 00:26:26.62,00:26:30.58 "How do I know this isn't an actor with a latex mask on?" (Laughs)

00:26:30.60,00:26:35.28 Sure I mean that's fair enough, but I don't know how you could prove it's not 00:26:35.3,00:26:38.76 Pull at your face or something? (Laughs) 00:26:38.78,00:26:42.78 No, I don't think we'll go down that route! 00:26:42.80,00:26:48.02 What struck me with this whole series of events 00:26:48.04,00:26:54.28 was that different scientists went to different venues at different times 00:26:54.3,00:26:58.87 and they all seem to have had different experiences 00:26:58.89,00:27:04.92 In Bill Hay's case he was told that he was trying to 00:27:04.94,00:27:08.98 he was trying to help the Mullahs feel more comfortable about science 00:27:09.00,00:27:15.96 and to convince them that their religion said that they should really be embraci ng science 00:27:15.98,00:27:22.48 Alfred Kroner said the meeting he went to had nothing to do with religion what s o ever 00:27:22.5,00:27:25.18 it was just a geology meeting 00:27:25.20,00:27:30.49 and then they sprung some cameras on them and asked them lots of leading questio ns 00:27:30.51,00:27:39.30 Your case seems to be probably the very initial point of contact 00:27:39.32,00:27:43.10 where they were saying that they were reviewing the meanings of the Quran 00:27:43.12,00:27:45.76 to make sure that they've got them correct 00:27:45.78,00:27:49.81 uh... that they are matching them up to what science says now 00:27:49.83,00:27:56.49 Because you did a kind of pre-written talk 00:27:56.51,00:28:00.69 it's obviously not been so easy to quote mine you 00:28:00.71,00:28:04.42 and you actually haven't had any people write to you

00:28:04.44,00:28:07.36 and ask "Do you believe that the Quran is from god?" 00:28:07.38,00:28:08.08 Is that right? 00:28:08.1,00:28:11.18 Oh no, no, never! 00:28:11.20,00:28:15.77 Your experience is really in contrast to other people because 00:28:15.79,00:28:20.52 Alfred (Kroner) for example said that he's had hundreds of people write to him 00:28:20.54,00:28:25.74 and he had a pre-written copy/paste response 00:28:25.76,00:28:28.20 It would say "Dear XXX" 00:28:28.22,00:28:30.76 and then the explanation 00:28:30.78,00:28:33.97 Bill (Hay) said that he'd had quite a number of people because 00:28:33.99,00:28:39.02 Bill was obviously quote mined saying "I think it must be from the divine being" 00:28:39.04,00:28:42.48 So obviously these other people have been quote mined 00:28:42.5,00:28:46.14 So my purpose really in talking to you was 00:28:46.16,00:28:49.84 because you seem to have been the initial person that they contacted 00:28:49.86,00:28:56.00 I was really kind of interested in the origins of this affair 00:28:56.02,00:28:58.39 What they originally said it was for... 00:28:58.41,00:29:01.98 How other people got involved, and so on 00:29:02.0,00:29:06.55 It's been really interesting having you explain that to me 00:29:06.57,00:29:11.62 It's been really interesting hearing about your experience of when you flew out 00:29:11.64,00:29:15.63 It seems that you've been flown out to various places 00:29:15.65,00:29:17.18 and on quite a number of occasions as well

00:29:17.2,00:29:25.28 Oh it was beautiful, it's the way to go! First class return flight from Denver t o Islamabad 00:29:25.3,00:29:28.96 I don't mind that a bit, it's a long flight! 00:29:28.98,00:29:33.58 I think the only meeting that Bill Hay was at was the Islamabad meeting 00:29:33.6,00:29:35.18 I don't think he was at any others? 00:29:35.2,00:29:39.05 I think he said he...I don't really recall 00:29:39.07,00:29:44.03 There was one I missed that was in Moscow or somewhere in Russia that I was not able to get to 00:29:44.05,00:29:47.68 Oh? I've never heard of a Moscow one! 00:29:47.7,00:29:52.35 There was one after and I had a conflict and just couldn't go to it 00:29:52.37,00:29:55.58 but I'm pretty sure was somewhere in... maybe just in the Soviet Union 00:29:55.6,00:29:57.75 it may have been in an Islamic part 00:29:57.77,00:30:01.68 It don't remember where it was, it could have been in Kazakhstan 00:30:01.7,00:30:05.61 or Tashkent or something like that, but I didn't go to that 00:30:05.63,00:30:11.25 and I don't seem to have the correspondence about that in my folder 00:30:11.27,00:30:13.28 and Bill (Hay) might have been there 00:30:13.30,00:30:16.74 He didn't mention Moscow, I haven't heard of that 00:30:16.76,00:30:18.78 he definitely mentioned Islamabad 00:30:18.8,00:30:21.53 and mentioned long boat trips and things 00:30:21.55,00:30:23.27 uh... I don't really recall 00:30:23.29,00:30:28.48 I thought he went to Jedda as well but I'm probably mistaken

00:30:28.5,00:30:30.38 He might have gone after me 00:30:30.4,00:30:38.11 because at the time I went to Jedda they (Zindani) didn't have those contacts (B ill Hay etc.) 00:30:38.13,00:30:46.15 Maybe I had made them but we didn't go at the same time if he went 00:30:46.17,00:30:49.38 In a summary do you think that it would be fair to say that 00:30:49.40,00:30:54.33 your opinion on this entire matter seems to have been misrepresented? 00:30:54.35,00:30:57.67 Well, as you have presented to me 00:30:57.69,00:31:01.56 it seems like in some cases I've been misrepresented 00:31:01.58,00:31:06.20 Fortunately I have the text of what I read all those meetings 00:31:06.22,00:31:10.04 and I didn't deviate from that text in my presentation 00:31:10.06,00:31:15.18 and in the questions and answers I always said 00:31:15.20,00:31:22.32 "We have to establish that there was no way for this knowledge to have been exte nt at that time" 00:31:22.34,00:31:28.98 And do you in any way endorse the proposition that the Quran could only have 00:31:29.0,00:31:33.00 come about through some supernatural origin? 00:31:33.02,00:31:35.07 No, of course not! 00:31:35.09,00:31:41.33 And finally just to cover myself legally 00:31:41.35,00:31:46.52 Do you give me permission to make the contents of this video recording public? 00:31:46.54,00:31:50.48 Yeah, I kind of would like to see it before you do it 00:31:50.50,00:31:52.63 What I'll do is... 00:31:52.65,00:31:55.83 It's going to be uploaded in its entirety unedited 00:31:55.85,00:32:01.70

So it's going to include people phoning you up to ask you about financial matter s and things 00:32:01.72,00:32:06.71 it will all be there because I literally want it to remain 100% uncut 00:32:06.73,00:32:12.28 because the name of the channel on YouTube is "ThisIsTheTruthUncut" 00:32:12.30,00:32:16.29 So I can't really edit out the phone call because then it will be cut 00:32:16.31,00:32:21.39 So what I'll do is, I'll upload it and let you have a look at it first 00:32:21.41,00:32:24.28 If you're not happy with it and you want me to get rid of it, that's fine 00:32:24.3,00:32:28.59 and if you're happy with it then I'll make it public 00:32:28.61,00:32:32.70 I mean, I enjoyed my contacts with everybody involved 00:32:32.72,00:32:40.96 so I wasn't vehemently trying to contradict them 00:32:40.98,00:32:47.73 but I was just saying that from my point of view we have to have conclusive evid ence 00:32:47.75,00:32:50.68 that there's no way for this to have been extent extent knowledge 00:32:50.7,00:32:57.93 and we didn't change that, we had a lot of private conversations along these lin es, we just kind of agreed to disagree 00:32:57.95,00:33:04.19 I think in the New York Times piece which Dan Golden wrote 00:33:04.21,00:33:13.32 Zindani is quoted as saying I was the one who wouldn't commit 00:33:13.34,00:33:15.20 So that was accurate then! 00:33:15.22,00:33:16.05 That was accurate! 00:33:16.07,00:33:21.50 Yes definitely, I think the thing is though it wasn't entirely accurate because 00:33:21.52,00:33:24.96 I haven't actually yet spoken to a scientist that did commit 00:33:24.98,00:33:26.96 I've spoken to about five or six on the phone 00:33:26.98,00:33:30.98

you're only about the third video interview I've done so far 00:33:31.0,00:33:36.99 and so far every single one of them said "That just wasn't my opinion at all" 00:33:37.01,00:33:40.98 So it would seem that you weren't the only one that wouldn't commit 00:33:41.0,00:33:44.78 Maybe what he meant was... 00:33:44.8,00:33:49.98 "The others were much easier to make it look like they had committed" 00:33:50.0,00:33:51.98 It may be they were more tactful? I don't know 00:33:52.0,00:33:56.90 Yeah, they were a bit more polite I think, maybe (laughs) 00:33:56.92,00:34:00.67 We had very frank conversations 00:34:00.69,00:34:05.38 because I don't mind discussing theology with theologians 00:34:05.40,00:34:06.97 I enjoy that! 00:34:06.99,00:34:11.90 and so we had discussions about where I came from, and why I thought the way I t hought 00:34:11.91,00:34:14.59 and uh... 00:34:14.60,00:34:17.79 that was okay 00:34:17.81,00:34:20.04 I never felt I was being 00:34:20.06,00:34:24.15 sort of argued with, or had my arm twisted or anything like that 00:34:24.17,00:34:26.01 It doesn't sound like you were 00:34:26.03,00:34:34.26 But as long as people realise that if someone uses you as an authority 00:34:34.28,00:34:39.28 on the information in the Quran regarding geology 00:34:39.3,00:34:42.63 and that you as this authority say 00:34:42.65,00:34:44.98 "You've really really got to be impressed by this

00:34:45.0,00:34:51.98 you should be quite convinced that this is beyond the ability of a 7th century h uman" 00:34:52.0,00:34:55.85 they know that this isn't something that they should be listening to? 00:34:55.87,00:34:59.42 I never implied that at any point 00:34:59.44,00:35:02.93 That's brilliant, thank you very much! 00:35:02.95,00:35:04.22 You're welcome! 00:35:04.24,00:35:09.14 Pete - who hasn't got the name "Pete" in his real name anywhere - Palmer 00:35:09.16,00:35:10.98 Pete Palmer, thank you very much for your time, thank you very much 00:35:11.0,00:35:14.68 Oh you are welcome!

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