Mar 28
Google Employee 11:
Hi folks,In today's ML Fairness all-hands, the top-rated Dory question was about the appointent of the !resident of the Herita"e Foundation to #oo"le's $d%an&ed e&hnolo"y ()ternal $d%isory*oun&il+Here was en #ennai's full response http.."o./en-"ennai-l-fairness-allhands-201q13I trans&ribed it fro the %ideo a%ailable at "o.l-fairness-allhands, whi&h sees %iewable by e%eryone4he response is probleati& on any fronts, for any of the reasons outlined in the other &entithread on the topi&+ he "eneral "ist of the essa"e is 5sorry that you were hurt but it is what it is5 3not a dire&t quote4+ here is soethin" %ery &a%alier about it, a le%el of tone-deafness and disissi%eness of the "ra%ity of the situation 35L#67I %iews5, only 59( out of ei"ht5 su&k, the whole 5di%ersity of opinions5 trope, the &oun&il not bein" a 5&lub5 but ore likea 5parliaent5, the redu&tion of the proble to the 5one issue5 of transphobia4, a hope that they &an say soe words, "o throu"h the otions, and hope that this stor will pass like others ha%e+ It's been a lon" week already and I don't ha%e the ener"y to rebut the response point-by-pointbut I thou"ht I should share what she said with a wider audien&e+Mar 2
Google Employee V:
:ell, tie to dust off the old a%en-ees "roup+Mar 2
Google Employee N:
I find the /ustifi&ation %ery troublin" so I sent the followin" question dire&tly to en
Would we even consider having a virulent anti-semite on the advisory board? How about an avowed racist or white supremacist? Would we use diversity of input as justification for including someone with those extreme views? I don't think we would !his seems like a double standard where anti-"#!$% positions are tolerated more than other extreme discriminatory views
Mar 2
Google Employee M:
:hile I do not ad%o&ate for any of the dis&riinatory "roups you entioned, I would not oppose a lar"er board that brou"ht all of those people to the table+ he %alue is understandin" these people's fears, and shinin" a li"ht into how their population and ideas &an be isolated or disproportionately tar"eted+ ;nowin" what all the %arious biases are, findin" the true &oon "round and then desi"nin" ML that is transparently fair in a way that is &learin" deonstrated to those ebers+ Lea%in" people out of the ML board will /ust ean that the e)ternal world will refuse to belie%e the board's de&isions are fair at all+
Is it dis"ustin"< =es, but that is the world we li%e in, and I' reinded of this quite often when I step outside of this I%ory tower and listen to the people who are far less fortunate than I a+Mar 2
Google Employee 11:
you don't need to ra&ists, white suprea&ists, e)terinationists on the board to know their stan&es+ you &an /ust talk to their tar"ets they know the, they know their ipa&t, they ha%e tan"ible proof of how they play out+ it's not like those positions are se&ret, and as entioned ultiple ties in the other thread, the huanity of a person is not up for debate, let alone on an >ethi&s> &oun&il+Mar 2
Google Employee 22:
#oo"le (ployee M, I don't understand what the &onne&tion is between 5people who are far less fortunate than I5 and hoophobes.transphobes+ I don't think anyone on this list would disa"ree that it's %itally for us to listen to the %iews of people who don't ha%e fan&y te&h /obs, but there are plenty of people who don't ha%e fan&y te&h /obs who aren't also tryin" to le"islate trans people out of e)isten&e+ Let's put soe of the on our ad%isory &oun&il?Mar 2
Google Employee H:
@nderstandin" their fears in "eneral is a "ood thin", I think+6ut this is an $I (thi&s $d%isory board+ Fro their own blurb 3http..shortn.A;i8D@%)D*4
!he &dvanced !echnology xternal &dvisory (ouncil )&!&(* will consider complex social and technical challenges and provide a diverse set of perspectives to inform our &I work and advise on our &I +rinciples' governance efforts
I' all for listenin" to a di%erse set of opinions and en"a"in" in eanin"ful dis&ussion, pro%ided y opposite is as well+ 6ut I a stri&tly opposed to those opinions dire&tly ad%isin" where.when.how we do sensiti%e $I work+ :e should afford opinions that "o dire&tly a"ainst our &ore %alues an equal seat at the table+I tolerate quite a few rather e)oti& opinions in y &ir&le of friends and faily, but I would ne%er let the a&ti%ely &ontrol y de&isions+ hose de&isions are ine, and I ake the based on y %alues+ My friends and faily &an influen&e y %alues, but that's the only interfa&e I "i%e the+ It's like that ra&ist relati%e that you talk to politely at holiday dinners, but who you would ne%er let &hoose what your kids read+:e as a &opany should ha%e a siilar approa&h, i+e+ ha%e a foru to listen to a di%erse set of opinions, but ake de&isions oursel%es based on what we &hoose to synthesiBe out of the+Mar 2
Google Employee W:
#oogle mployee ,
.While I do not advocate for any of the discriminatory groups you mentioned/ I would not oppose a larger board that brought all of those people to the table !he value is understanding these people's fears/ and shining a light into how their population and ideas can be isolated or disproportionately targeted0
here is %alue in understandin" positions that are unethi&al and irredeeable+ here is no %alue in "i%in" the people who hold the a %ote.say in de&isions, e%en if those de&isions are 5/ust ad%isory5+ $s oClle says, if you ha%e any doubts or &uriosity about e)treists' positions, you should talk to their %i&tis, or indeed /ust "o and ask the dire&tly it's not as if they're se&reti%e or subtle+ If you want to ask 5what ade you like this5, "o ahead, but a"ain, that's a different thin" to "i%in" the a %oi&e and seat on any board or &oun&il+here's a differen&e between 5&an %iolen&e e%er be /ust, and where should we draw lines5, about whi&h there &an be had reasonable debate, and 5are soe people intrinsi&ally inferior to others5, about whi&h there &annot+Mar 2
Google Employee T wrote:
#oogle mployee 1 wroteWould we even consider having a virulent anti-semite on the advisory board? How about an avowed racist or white supremacist? Would we use diversity of input as justification for including someone with those extreme views? I don't think we would !his seems like a double standard where anti-"#!$% positions are tolerated more than other extreme discriminatory views
I think this is a "reat question and E1 to oelle's take on it+ I also want to point out that it's not about a person's beliefs, but about soeone who is the head of an or"aniBation who has been e)pendin" si"nifi&ant resour&es to e)e&ute these anti-L#6 positions+ If there was a qualified indi%idual who pri%ately held %arious beliefs and ne%er a&ted on the or e)pressed the in a anner that ne"ati%ely ipa&ted others, I think there would be a %ery different rea&tion+o the real question to e is whether or not we think there's %alue in ha%in" the #rand :iBard of the ;;; on this board+Mar 2
Google Employee 10:
My 5fa%orite5 part of en's response is the bit about how one of the G($L reasons 3definitely not /ust to s&ore politi&al points on the ri"ht4 ;ay *oles aes is in&luded on the board is she's an ad%o&ate for "ender equality? =ou know, the woan responsible for a (GF panel, lobbyin" a"ainst the (quality $&t be&ause it in&ludes trans people, and who doesn't a&knowled"e nonbinary people as people+ :hat an a&ti%ist for "ender equality?Mar 2
Google Employee I:
E1000 to the 5you don't need to in&lude hateful people to know their stan&e5 ar"uent+his aside, one ar"uent keeps &oin" up 5we need these people on the board so it "i%es us &redibility with the publi& . with politi&ians5+