Professional Documents
Culture Documents
By Raj Ayyar
When I surfaced in India recently, I e-mailed
Saleem Kidwai, hoping for a timeless cosmic
duet, sipping a latte at a South Delhi cafe, or
enjoying a communion of souls at a Sufi tavern
in Nowhere, reclining on couches, waited on by
exquisite round-faced, dewy-eyed youths. Alas,
we had to settle for the unfleshy prosaic
medium of e-print for this interview.
Saleem is a former Associate Professor of
History at Delhi University. He is an Islamic
Studies scholar who undermines any straight
monolithic view of Islam as homophobic and
sex-phobic.
Ruth Vanita: In a sense, yes. You can see this trend as early as
Martin Luther's attempt to purge the church of Mary and all
female icons. I don't think that the female presence has
disappeared from Protestantism, however.
Raj Ayyar: What about the connection between Sappho and
the Virgin?
Ruth Vanita: Sappho has been regarded as the ultimate
female lyric writer, whose style was a model for many writers,
including the Romantic Movement. Her lesbianism was a
hovering presence surrounding this influence. I've reproduced
paintings in the book that show the Virgin surrounded by female
saints and feminized males, be they angels or saints. She is a
mentor, guardian and teacher to them. Sappho too was
surrounded by young female protégées; she played teacher and
mentor to them...two different ways of approaching the same
thing. Of course, Sappho represents the more sexualized form,
while the Virgin clearly does not. And yet, convents and
nunneries were refuges for same-sex communities. Hostile
Victorian puritans, wherein the connection between the two was
stated in a negative manner, saw them as “hotbeds of
Sapphism”.
Raj Ayyar: In Same-Sex Love, you argue against the view that
gender-segregated monastic communities were always
oppressive to women. You point out wryly that the privileging of
procreative sex is not necessarily of advantage to women.
Ruth Vanita: Uh-huh. I think it's healthy to have alternatives to
procreative sex and heterosexual marriage. I'm not denying that
some women were oppressed in these monastic communities,
but in many cases it was based on a free choice. You see that
clearly in the writings of some Buddhist nuns as also in the
writings of some women in the West like Hildegard of Bingen.
For these women, it is obvious that the monastic lifestyle was an
active, autonomous choice.
Raj Ayyar: Do you think that the Western 'coming out' model
applies to all cultures? Ever since Stonewall in the late 60s,
many Western gay activists have a fixed model of the coming-
out process in their heads, and speak and act as if it's the sole
paradigm for lesbians and gay men everywhere.
Ruth Vanita: Well, I don't think you can make a blanket
recommendation for India, given the great diversity of cultures
there. However, I do think that the gay person has to make some
kind of statement in saying 'no' to the standard arranged
heterosexual marriage, whether you frame that as 'coming out'
or not.
Raj Ayyar: What do you
think of Ashok Kavi? As
you know, there are
many gay movements
popping up all over the
Indian urban scene,
thanks to the pioneering
efforts of Ashok and a
few others.
Ruth Vanita: I respect
Ashok greatly. In fact,
when he came out in a
popular Indian magazine
many years ago, I
thought 'great!' I grew up
with many of the classic
gay feelings of
loneliness, feeling
different from others, cut-
offness and so on.
Ashok's openness has
encouraged many gay
Indians to come to terms
Ashok Kavi with their sexuality.
Raj Ayyar: Ruth, it's been a joy talking with you.
Ruth Vanita: Likewise, Raj. I've enjoyed our conversation.