Episode 40 Back to New York! Participants: Adam B. Levine (AL) ost !tep"anie #$rp"y (!

(!#) %o&"ost Peter 'o"n #an()aviti (P'#) !pecia) *$est+ %,- o. /eat"ercoin #arc oc"stein (# ) !pecia) *$est+ e0ec$tive editor o. American Banker ABL: i+ and we)come to Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin+ a twice&week)3 s"ow a4o$t t"e ideas+ peop)e+ and pro5ects 4$i)din( t"e new di(ita) econom3 and t"e .$t$re o. mone3. #3 name is Adam B. Levine and toda3+ we6re 4ack in New York. #arc oc"stein is a 5o$rna)ist and t"e editor o. American Banker. 2"e da3 a.ter t"e ,nside Bitcoins con.erence+ "e and , sat down .or a wide ran(in( interview on t"emes in cr3ptoc$rrenc3+ Bitcoin+ a)tcoins+ "ow it6s a)) perceived wit"in t"e )e(ac3 4ankin( space+ and m$c" more. B$t .irst+ !tep"anie sat down wit" Peter 'o"n #an()aviti+ t"e %,- o. /eat"ercoin to disc$ss )essons )earned+ a))iances .ormed+ and .indin( 3o$r p)ace wit" an a)tcoin. 7isit $s at Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin.com .or o$r dai)3 ($est 4)o(+ s"ow arc"ive+ and o. co$rse+ tippin( options! En5o3 t"e s"ow! !#: -ka3+ "e))o+ and we)come to Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin. ,6m "ere ta)kin( wit" Peter 'o"n #an()aviti. And 3o$ are .rom /eat"ercoin+ ri("t8 Yo$6re t"e %,.rom /eat"ercoin8 P'#: Yea"+ , ass$me responsi4i)it3. , do more o. t"e strate(ic p)annin(. ,6m a deve)oper as we))+ 4$t not as (ood as t"e ot"er ($3+ so , "and)e t"e ot"er side o. t"in(s. ,6ve 4een recent)3 workin( wit" 4ot" /eat"er+ P"oeni0+ and 9or)d to kind o. coordinate a)) t"ree o. t"ose coins now. !#: -"+ 3es+ , "eard a4o$t t"is. , saw a press re)ease a4o$t t"is. !o+ oka3+ and $nti) , "ad seen t"at press re)ease+ , "ad never "eard o. P"oeni0 %oin or 9or)d %oin. '$st /eat"ercoin. B$t .irst+ )et6s start wit" t"at. !o+ .or o$r )isteners w"o "ave never "eard o. /eat"ercoin+ w"at is it8 P'#: !$re. /eat"ercoin is a de&centra)i:ed c$rrenc3. !o+ i. 3o$6re a Bitcoin .an 3o$6d pro4a4)3 a)so 4e a /eat"ercoin .an. !ome o. t"e di..erences t"at we "ave is in terms o. some o. t"e (eek3 t"in(s re&tar(etin(+ tr3in( to contro) "ow di..ic$)t it can 4e. B$t more important)3+ tr3in( to .oc$s on /eat"ercoin is (rassroots. , come .rom not on)3 an ,2 4ack(ro$nd 4$t a po)itica) 4ack(ro$nd. , was one o. t"e ($3s 4e"ind t"e meet$ps wit" t"e ;on Pa$) campai(ns. !o+ we "ad an idea t"at+ co$)d t"is trans)ate to di(ita) c$rrenc38 %an 3o$ take a 4$nc" o. vo)$nteers+ and we "ave <$ite a .ew now+

and 5$st (et t"em motivated to 5$st do somet"in(8 2o 5$st do (ood. And t"at6s "ow we deve)oped o$r comm$nit3. !#: -"+ interestin(. !o+ is t"ere act$a))3 a )i4ertarian ideo)o(3 4e"ind /eat"ercoin8 P'#: A4so)$te)3. !#: E0p)icit)38 -"+ wow. P'#: Yea"+ a4so)$te)3. !#: !ee+ , didn6t know a4o$t t"at. And , can consider m3se). a )i4ert3 )over. #a34e not so m$c" into t"e po)itica) s3stem more o$tside o. t"e s3stem 3o$ co$)d sa3+ 4$t , certain)3 "ave 4een .o))owin( ;on Pa$) since 4e.ore =00>. P'#: Yea"+ , was t"e ($3 wit" t"e /ree !tate pro5ect and a)) t"ose ($3s. , went to New amps"ire+ , was wavin( si(ns... !#: No wa3! 9e))+ act$a))3 , )ive in New amps"ire. !o... P'#: -"+ do 3a8 !#: Yea". , moved t"ere 4eca$se o. t"e /ree !tate pro5ect in =00?+ so... P'#: 9e))+ 3ea". B$t t"e idea was & so+ wit" ;on Pa$)+ ,6d spend m3 weekends makin( si(ns wit" a 4$nc" o. ($3s. And at .irst+ t"e idea o. vo)$nteerin(+ ,6m )ike+ "ow m$c" .$n co$)d t"is 4e8 , "ad a 4)ast. , "ad so m$c" .$n doin( work so w"en , met Peter B$sc"ne))+ t"e Lead @eve)oper /eat"ercoin+ , t"o$("t A"$"! %o$)d t"is work8 Yo$ know+ can 3o$ make it .$n8 %an 3o$ make it somet"in( w"ere peop)e want to contri4$te and t"en ever34od3 ce)e4rates in s$ccess8B And t"at6s rea))3 t"e direction o. /eat"ercoin. !#: 9ow+ t"at6s coo). !o+ "ow do 3o$ accomp)is" t"at wit" a cr3ptoc$rrenc38 P'#: Yea"+ $m+ t"at6s a (ood <$estion. , started o.. ver3 sma)). 9"en , (ot on 4oard t"ere was ma34e =0 or C0 o. $s. And we "ave over D0+000 mem4ers ri("t now. (!#: 9ow!) Yea"+ it was 5$st a matter o. & , asked peop)e w"at t"e3 )iked to do. , said "e3+ w"at do 3o$ en5o3 doin(8 ,6m an

artist+ "e3+ we "ave sc$)ptors+ we "ave m$sicians+ we "ave peop)e t"at aren6t necessari)3 3o$r t3pica) cr3pto&tec"ie ($3s. And , 5$st .i($red o$t+ , t"o$("t+ "mm! ,s t"ere a wa3 to make t"is work8 !o+ .or e0amp)e+ i. we "ave a pro5ect we "ave artists t"at wi)) do t"e (rap"ics .or $s. 9e "ave a sc$)ptor t"at does st$.. on t"e side .or $s. 9e "ave 4$siness peop)e t"at )ike doin( press re)eases )ike 3o$6ve seen. ,t6s t"e idea o. !tone !o$p. , was a 4i( .an o. t"at in e)ementar3 sc"oo) t"at 3o$ start wit" t"is idea o. t"is is t"e 4est so$p ever. ,. ever3one 5$st adds a )itt)e 4it to it+ it6)) 4e awesome. And peop)e "ave .$n+ 3o$ know+ it6s a p)ace & o$r comm$nit3 is ver3 m$c" a(ainst tro))in( as t"e kids sa3 and we don6t accept it. 9e 5$st sa3 t"at6s not $s. , want it to 4e a p)ace t"at m3 parents wo$)d en5o3 (oin( to. Beca$se i. 3o$ (o to some .or$ms it can (et nast3 at times. And peop)e... , don6t 4e)ieve t"at. , 4e)ieve t"at 3o$ s"o$)d sa3 w"at 3o$ want+ e0press 3o$r .ee)in(+ 4$t attack t"e points and not t"e peop)e. And we "ave a comm$nit3 t"at & , don6t "and)e t"at+ t"e3 step in and (o & appreciate w"at 3o$6re sa3in(+ 4$t at /eat"ercoin we do t"is. !o+ ,6m rea))3 pro$d o. w"at deve)oped. , don6t take credit .or t"at. 9e 5$st "ad some rea))3 4ri("t peop)e come a4oard and , "appened to 4e t"e mo$t"piece at t"e time. !#: !o $m+ 3ea"+ it so$nds prett3 decentra)i:ed 5$st )ike t"e nat$re o. a)) cr3ptoc$rrenc3. ,t6s s$pposed to 4e decentra)i:ed+ ri("t8 ,s t"ere a /eat"ercoin .or$m8 ,6m not .ami)iar... P'#: Yea"+ .or$m./eat"ercoin.com+ we "ave a prett3 )ar(e .or$m t"ere. !#: !o+ (o t"ere+ no tro))in(. P'#: Yea"+ no tro))in( a))owed. B$t 3o$ know+ we6re not (onna sit aro$nd and tr3 to )am4ast 3o$. Yo$ know+ 3o$6re a "orri4)e person. 9e6)) sa3 )ook & attack t"e iss$es. Beca$se 4e)ieve me+ we attack. '$st recent)3+ t"ere1s t"in(s ,6ve done t"at not ever3one a(rees wit". B$t 3o$ attack t"e iss$e and not t"e person+ and we can respect eac" ot"er t"at wa3. And t"at keeps deve)opin( movin( .orward. !#: 9e))+ ,6m kind o. c$rio$s a4o$t some o. t"e con.)icts t"at come $p and (et reso)ved. P'#: !o one o. t"e ma5or t"in(s is t"e partners"ip 4etween t"e t"ree coins 4eca$se $p $nti) recent)3 t"is "as not 4een done. And , work a)so in t"e proprietar3 ,2 sector in sc"oo)s. And ,6ve "e)ped mer(e sc"oo)s to(et"er in terms o. s"arin( reso$rces. !o+ ,6ve seen t"is work 4e.ore+ 4$t it "asn6t 4een

proven "ere+ 3et. !o+ t"ere are some skeptics. And , don6t 4)ame t"em. , want t"em to 4e skeptica). 2"e w"o)e idea 4e"ind t"is movement is to do 3o$r own t"in(+ c"a))en(e eac" ot"er. ,. 3o$ want m3 ro)e+ , sa3+ 43 a)) means+ p)ease take it+ it6s vo)$nteer 4ased. B$t we "as" t"in(s o$t. ,t6s a respect.$) t3pe o. conversation. !#: Yea"+ t"at6s rea))3 interestin( to "ear a4o$t+ 4eca$se "onest)3+ , see some para))e)s to t"e /ree !tate Pro5ect+ tr3in( to or(ani:e or occ$p3 New amps"ire or w"atever+ t"ose kinds o. activism. P'#: Yea"+ s$re+ , (ot interested & w"en , .irst (ot invo)ved in cr3pto , went on & ,6m not (onna sa3 t"e we4site 4$t , went on one o. t"e .or$ms and , was )ike+ oka3. , "ave t"is (reat idea .or meet$ps+ ,6ve done t"is 4e.ore wit" ;on Pa$)+ and )ike twent3 comments DE o. t"em A3o$ s$ck! 2"at6)) never work.B And , went+ t"at6s not t"e comm$nit3 , want to 4e in. !o+ , can eit"er comp)ain a4o$t it or "e)p 4$i)d somet"in( t"at ,... want to 4e invo)ved in. !o , took t"e ot"er approac". , met a co$p)e ($3s .rom /eat"er. And t"e3 said+ A3o$ know w"at8 9e want to 4$i)d somet"in( coo). 9ant to come a4oard8B And we started o.. 5$st t"rowin( ideas o$t t"ere and 4$i)din( a ver3 .riend)3 environment. And we a)so "ave a )ot o. tec"nica) t"in(s we6re workin( on wit" /eat"er as we))+ 4$t ,6m most pro$d o. t"e )i4ertarian idea)s. ,n t"e end+ , t"ink t"at6s w"at6s (onna make $s s$ccess.$) more t"an t"e retar(etin( or "ow t"e di..ic$)ties ad5$sted. 2"at6s important and , 4e)ieve in t"e sec$rit3+ 4$t , t"ink $)timate)3 w"at matters is+ Ado peop)e want to (et invo)ved8 @oes m3 #om $nderstand /eat"ercoin8 %an 3o$ p$rc"ase prod$cts at a 4ar wit" /eat"ercoin8B Yes+ 3o$ can. !#: Now 3o$ can+ ri("t8 2"ere6s one 4ar. P'#: Yo$ can+ ri("t+ ri("t. Litt)e p)$( t"ere. !#: ;i("t+ ri("t. , saw t"at too. , am act$a))3 c$rio$s a4o$t some o. t"e (eek3 st$..+ )ike ,. ,t6s coo) to "ear a4o$t t"e comm$nit3 and ever3t"in(. B$t , a)so want to "ear a4o$t )ike+ so , know t"at /eat"ercoin is 4ased on t"e script a)(orit"m )ike Litecoin was t"e pioneer in t"at area+ ri("t8 9it" t"e !cr3pt a)(orit"m. Fm+ and so w"at e)se is di..erent a4o$t /eat"ercoin t"an ot"er cr3pto coins8 P'#: Yea"+ ri("t now t"e ma5or di..erence is wit" $s+ and t"is is a4o$t to c"an(e a(ain+ is G04 4)ocks. !o it6s a4o$t 40 <$icker w"at Litecoin is. And t"e reason w"3 is 4eca$se we were )e.t in w"at , ca)) di..ic$)t3 "e)). Be.ore+

we did o$r "ard .ork+ we "ad a 4$nc" o. miners rea))3 e0cited a4o$t /eat"ercoin+ and t"e3 5acked t"e di..ic$)t3 $p rea))3 "i(". And t"en w"en t"e3 )e.t $s+ we were .)oatin( in space .or C&4 weeks. !#: -"+ and 3o$ co$)dn6t .ind a 4)ock. -"+ so t"at6s somet"in( we ta)ked a4o$t on Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin 4e.ore+ w"ere t"e di..ic$)t3 o. t"e network (oes wa3 $p 4eca$se a )ot o. peop)e are minin(+ and t"en s$dden)3+ t"e3 drop o$t or it co$)d 4e one part3 t"at6s one ver3 power.$) miner. And t"en s$dden)3 t"e di..ic$)t3 is "i(" and t"e3 can6t .ind a 4)ock and t"e3 can6t ad5$st 4ack down. P'#: And wit" prod$cts )ike %oin %"oose and some o. t"ese a$to&switc"ers 4etween t"e most pro.ita4)e coin+ t"ese are pro4)ems t"at we didn6t see 4ack in =0DD wit" Litecoin+ .or e0amp)e. !o+ .or 4etter or worse+ /eat"er was c"a))en(ed wit" a co$p)e interestin( iss$es. 2"e second t"in( is is not on)3 t"e... !#: 9ait+ "o)d on+ "ow did 3o$ so)ve t"at8 9as t"at t"e GDH attack8 P'#: 2"at6s a di..erent one. !#: 2"at6s a di..erent one+ oka3. !o+ oka3+ wit" t"e di..ic$)t3 pro4)em w"en t"e di..ic$)t3 (ot rea))3 "i(" and t"en t"e miners dropped o$t+ "ow did t"at (et reso)ved8 P'#: !$re+ so we "ad to "ard .ork it at 4)ock CC+000 w"ic" was & it6s a ma5or dea). 2"at6s somet"in( 3o$ never take )i("t)3+ 4$t we did two t"in(s. -ne is we red$ced t"e retar(etin( to G04 4)ocks. !o+ we co$)dn6t 4e )e.t in )im4o t"at )on(. And t"e important t"in( was t"at now 3o$ co$)d on)3 ad5$st $p or down 43 4D.4H. !o+ in ot"er words+ i. di..ic$)t3 starts sk3rocketin( it won6t sk3rocket )ike it did. ,t can on)3 (o $p in increments. !ince t"e "ard .ork+ we6ve sta3ed wit"in pro4a4)3 a4o$t a di..ic$)t3 o. a4o$t wit"in G0. A4o$t a G0 di..ic$)t3. ,t6s p$t $s ri("t w"ere we need to 4e. And t"at was a)) B$s". e .i($red it o$t and it kept $s ri("t w"ere we need to 4e now. !#: !o it kind o. p$t t"e 4reaks on t"e di..ic$)t3 c"an(in(8 P'#: ,t did. ,t kept it consistent. Ne0t to Litecoin+ we are t"e )ar(est cas" network .or s!cr3pt. !#: -ka3. Are t"ere an3 ot"er script 4ased coins8 Besides Litecoin and /eat"ercoin8

P'#: -" 3ea"+ t"ere6s... it seems end)ess at times. ,6d sa3 t"ere6s at )east 40 , can name o.. t"e top o. m3 "ead. !#: 9ow+ o" m3. P'#: #a34e m3 new )isteners aren6t .ami)iar wit" some o. t"e sma))er ones 4$t t"ere are !cr3pt coins .or /ina) /antas3. 2"ere are script coins .or (as. , mean+ t"ere are ver3 speci.ic coins. 9"ere t"e36)) end $p , don6t know+ 4$t t"ere6s a )ot o. .orks o$t t"ere. A )ot o. peop)e e0perimentin(+ w"ic" is not a 4ad t"in(. , en5o3 t"at. , t"ink it6s important .or peop)e to tr3 new t"in(s. 2o make mistakes )ike we did in t"e past and t"en 4e wi))in( to admit. !a3+ A"e3+ t"is is an iss$e we didn6t .oresee+ "ow are we (onna .i0 it8B Beca$se in t"e end t"at6s w"at matters. ow do we move t"e c$rrenc3 .orward8 !#: !$re+ 3ea". -ka3+ so a "ard .ork. 2"at means t"at 3o$ make a di..erent 4)ockc"ain+ essentia))3. P'#: Yea"+ e0act)3. Ever3one "as to& 3o$ know+ it6s not an optiona) down)oad+ 3o$ "ave to (ra4 t"e new wa))ets. !o+ 3o$ "ad c"a))en(es invo)ved wit" t"at as we)). 9e worked wit" some o. t"e .or$ms and "e)ped coordinate t"at so t"e3 were rea))3 (ood a4o$t (ettin( t"e news o$t t"ere and a))owin( $s to kind o. ramp $p to it. !#: -ka3+ in t"at case co$)d 3o$ 5$st $p(rade to a di..erent c)ient+ or wo$)d 3o$ "ave to )ike send 3o$r coins .rom t"e o)d c)ient to a new c)ient+ or somet"in( )ike t"at8 P'#: Yo$ can $p(rade+ 3o$ can $se an e0istin( wa))et. B$t a(ain+ 3o$ "ave to (et t"e $p(rade .inis"ed. !o it6s not somet"in( 3o$ ever want to take )i("t)3. !#: @o 3o$ t"ink t"at s"ook t"e tr$st in /eat"ercoin in t"e comm$nit38 -r t"e Bitcoin comm$nit38 P'#: !$re+ it6s "ard to sa3. 2"ere6s a)wa3s (oin( to 4e t"ose t"at don6t )ike $s. And )ook+ ,6m oka3 wit" t"at. B$t o.ten times+ w"en , di( aro$nd t"e ones t"at don6t )ike $s t"e most t"e3 "ave coins somew"ere e)se. And , respect t"at. Yo$ know+ p$s" 3o$r coin t"at6s .ine. 9"at we did do t"o$(" .or t"e miners is we o..ered D0 4tc. 9"at we did is at eac" point+ we o..ered a 4on$s+ w"oever .o$nd t"at 4)ock went a"ead and (ot D 4tc. And ,

contri4$ted an additiona) G on top o. t"at .or t"e )ast one. !o t"e person t"at "it t"e )ast one (ot D0 4tc .or "ittin( t"e CC+000 4)ock. !#: , see. P'#: Yo$ know+ we6re not tr3in( to 4ri4e t"e comm$nit3. 9"at we want to do is sa3 A)ook+ we know t"is is an inconvenience. 9"at can we do to "e)p (et peop)e motivated8B 9e t$rn it into somet"in( more t"at6s a positive. 9e co$)d "ave )e.t it a)one and said+ 3o$ know w"at+ .or(et it. ,t6)) sort itse). o$t 4$t t"at doesn6t do an3t"in( .or t"e comm$nit3I. 2"at wo$)d )ose tr$st. , t"ink <$icker t"an to sa3 )ook+ it6s not workin( o$t+ we "ave a so)$tion in p)ace+ we ta)ked a4o$t it wit" t"e comm$nit3 & we e0ec$ted. !#: Yea"+ , mean t"at6s & , rea))3 )ike 3o$r attit$de a4o$t t"at 4eca$se t"is is 5$st & it6s an $nknown .rontier. 9e6re tr3in( new t"in(s+ st$..6s (onna "appen and... P'#: ...and it does! !#: And it does. Yea". ()a$("s) P'#: Yo$ see t"at over and over. !#: !o 3o$6re ro))in( wit" it+ so... coo). P'#: And 3o$ mention t"e GDH attacks. !#: Yea"+ , was (onna ask a4o$t t"at ne0t+ te)) me more a4o$t t"at. P'#: ,n tr$t"+ ,6m not (onna "ide t"at+ we6ve 4een attacked a co$p)e times now. 9e6ve 4een tapped wit" massive "as". 9e6re ta)kin6 J or > (i(. , mean+ w"ic" is $n"eard o. on a)) coins. !#: ow do 3o$ t"ink... @o 3o$ t"ink it6s one person or do 3o$ t"ink it6s )ike a 4otnet+ or...8 P'#: Fm+ ,6d rat"er not sa3. , "ave a prett3 (ood idea. 9"at ,6)) sa3 a4o$t it is t"is. 2"ere are some 4i((er coins t"at de.inite)3 need to protect+ t"at want to protect+ t"eir investments+ and i. 3o$ can make /eat"ercoin )ook $nsta4)e+ i. 3o$ can send massive amo$nts o. miners at $s+ it can make peop)e move awa3 .rom $s. B$t t"at6s not t"e case 4eca$se i. 3o$ )ook at o$r price over

t"e )ast co$p)e o. weeks we went .rom a4o$t J.E cents to D= cents. !o+ it "asn6t s"aken t"e comm$nit3 4$t we take it serio$s. !omet"in( new needs to 4e so)ved. Litecoin doesn6t "ave t"is iss$e 4eca$se t"e3 "ave t"e network to s$pport t"em. B$t i. somet"in( "appened wit" t"em+ and ,6m not sa3in( , "ope t"at "appens+ 4$t )et6s sa3 .or e0amp)e t"e3 don6t end $p on *o0. And )et6s sa3+ .or e0amp)e+ t"at t"e3 )ose some o. t"eir miners. 2"eir !cr3pt 4ase+ t"e36d 4e in t"e same 4oat t"at we are. !o w"at we .ee) )ike it6s o$r responsi4i)it3 to so)ve t"is. And one t"in( we6re imp)ementin( is somet"in( ca))ed an advanced c"eck pointin( s3stem. ,6d rat"er "ave B$s" !tar ta)k a4o$t t"at. ,6m t"e P P ($3+ "e6s t"e main ($r$ coin ($3. B$t we6re workin( wit" !onn3 over at PP% coin t"at we "ope t"at pro)i.erates to a)) coins in t"e !cr3pt comm$nit3. !#: -"+ interestin(+ oka3. P'#: Yo$ know w"at+ we (ot 4eat $p a 4it+ 4$t , .ee) )ike it6s o$r responsi4i)it3 as one o. t"e )eaders in a)tcoins .or !cr3pt to come $p wit" so)$tions. 9e don6t "ide t"at .act. !#: 2"at is rea))3 interestin( t"at t"e GDH attacks didn6t seem to a..ect t"e price ne(ative)3. -r did it (o down a.ter8 P'#: 7er3 )itt)e. !#: ,t6s "ard to "ave & w"en 3o$ don6t "ave .ar to .a)) it6s "ard to "ave a price cras"+ ri("t8 P'#: ,t is+ 4$t even i. it (oes .rom KJ.E to KJ.J+ t"at6s prett3 si(ni.icant .or $s. !o 3o$ know .or $s we6re a)most do$4)e t"e )ast co$p)e o. weeks now. And , t"ink it6s 5$st 4eca$se we6re doin( t"e ri("t t"in(s in t"e comm$nit3. , .ee) )ike peop)e s$pport t"e idea o. /eat"ercoin. And t"e3 tr$st we6re (onna do t"e ri("t t"in(s and tr3 to .i0 t"is. 9e6re not "idin( an3t"in(+ we "ave a section on o$r .orm t"at sa3s Aattacks.B ere6s w"at6s "appenin(+ we want inp$t .rom t"e comm$nit3. 9e6re open on "ow we want to so)ve it+ and , t"ink $)timate)3 t"at6s w"at peop)e care a4o$t. And t"en o$r (reat P; peop)e are o$t t"ere (ettin( /eat"ercoin in 4ars. 9e "ave di..erent merc"ants comin( a4oard. 9e "ave a &ina$di4)e& s3stem 4ein( deve)oped+ speci.ica))3 .or merc"ants t"at we6re a4o$t to re)ease. Peop)e are e0cited+ and ,6m 5$st "app3 to 4e a part o. t"is. , .ee) )ike , was invited to t"e part3.

!#: Yea". !o+ oka3+ te)) me more a4o$t t"is partners"ip wit" P"oeni0 %oin and 9or)d %oin. /irst o. a))+ w"at are t"e38 , "ave not "eard o. t"em. P'#: A4so)$te)3. !o P"oeni0 %oin+ t"ese ($3s come .rom t"e casino wor)d and ad$)t wor)d+ act$a))3. 2"at was t"eir market. And t"e3 decided.. !#: !o it6s )ike porn coins. 2"at6s coo). ,6m into t"at. P'#: Yea"+ t"e36ve "ad <$ite a 4it o. s$ccess in t"at market and t"e3 wanted to kind o. ease into... t"e3 )iked t"e idea o. cr3ptoc$rrenc3. -. co$rse+ t"e c$stomers+ 4ein( casino and ad$)t+ anon3mo$s+ and somew"at anon3mo$s transactions+ so t"e3 came wit" a coin. 9"at we .e)t )ike we co$)d 4rin( to t"e part3 is a 4it o. ($idance in terms o. we "ave a 4i( comm$nit3 & a )ot o. deve)opers. !o we6ve kind o. transitioned .rom t"at wor)d into cr3ptoc$rrenc3. And t"en 9or)d %oin is ver3 .oc$sed on midd)e&si:ed 4$siness. 2"e3 "ave a )ot o. 4ack(ro$nd wit" 4anks and acco$ntants and areas t"at /eat"er "as no e0perience. !o+ w"at , ta)ked to Peter a4o$t is+ Peter B$sc"ne))+ o$r )ead deve)oper+ is we can6t 4e ever3t"in( to ever3one. 9e6re ver3 (ood at some t"in(s. 9e6re ver3 (ood on t"e deve)opment side+ comm$nit3 deve)opment+ e0perimentin(. B$t we certain)3 don6t "ave t"e e0perience wit" t"e 4$siness side. 9e de.inite)3 don6t "ave t"e ad$)t wor)d and t"e casino wor)d. !o+ , met wit" 'o"n %arr+ w"o is t"e )eader o. P"oeni0 %oin , 5$st said "ere6s w"at ,6m t"inkin(. ,t6d 4e nice i. we can+ instead o. compete a(ainst one anot"er & w"3 don6t we .i($re o$t a wa3 to poo) reso$rces8 , mapped o$t a strate(ic p)an 4eca$se ,6m a (eek t"at wa3+ t"at6s )ike m3 porn+ ri("t8 ere6s "ow we can make it work+ and "ere6s "ow we can )ike+ 3o$ know+ (o a"ead and move .orward as a (ro$p. And t"at6s "ow it came a4o$t. !#: %oo)+ so oka3. 9"at is invo)ved in t"e partners"ip+ w"at is it doin(8 P'#: !$re. !o .or e0amp)e ri("t now we6re a4o$t to re)ease t"e FN,L Brid(e. And t"at6s (onna a))ow $s to do instant transactions 4etween e0c"an(es+ merc"ants+ and c$stomers. !o+ t"ink a4o$t it a)most as a 4ank acco$nt. ,. 3o$ deposit at Bank o. America+ t"e3 "ave s3stems w"ere 3o$ can & ,6ve seen commercia)s .or t"is & i. 3o$ "ave 3o$r 4ank acco$nt wit" Bank o. America+ 3o$r 4a43sitter does as we))+ 3o$ can instant trans.er+ ri("t8 9e)) t"at6s t"e same idea "ere. 2"at6s w"at P"oeni0 %oin is (ood at+ t"e3 worked on 4ack&end s3stemsI credit card processin(+ 4ankin( t3pe s3stems. /eat"er did not. 9e "ad no e0perience. !o+ t"e36re 4rin(in( t"at to

t"e (ro$p and t"en a)) t"ree o. $s are a4)e to $se it. And we6)) 4e ta)kin( more a4o$t t"at rea) s"ort)3. %oindesk "as an e0c)$sive on it+ t"e3 a)read3 "ave t"e artic)e written. 9a)ked t"em t"ro$(" it+ , 5$st (otta wait ti)) we (et t"ro$(" penetration testin(. !#: -ka3+ coo)+ so it6s some kind o. s3stem w"ere 3o$ co$)d pa3 .or somet"in( wit" /eat"ercoin t"at 3o$ mi("t6ve on)3 previo$s)3 4een a4)e to pa3 wit" P"oeni0 %oin. P'#: !$re+ so .or e0amp)e )et6s sa3 3o$ want to se)) somet"in(. Let6s sa3+ do 3o$ se)) an3t"in(8 !#: ,6m a .ree)ance voice&over artist. !o , se)) m3 voice. P'#: -ka3. !o 3o$ se)) 3o$r voice. -k+ so )et6s sa3 3o$ "ave an mpC+ a samp)e+ and 3o$ want to se)) it .or )ike a co$p)e do))ars. And 3o$ and , want to e0c"an(e /eat"ercoin .or it. ow wo$)d we (o a4o$t t"at8 !#: , ($ess , wo$)d send 3o$ a /eat"ercoin address and 3o$6d pa3 me+ ri("t8 P'#: ;i("t+ so 3o$6d "ave a wa))et+ ri("t8 And t"en , wo$)d (o a"ead and send it to 3o$+ 3o$6d wait .or a co$p)e con.irms to veri.3 t"at it6s )e(it+ and 3o$ "ave t"ese coins now+ ri("t8 !#: Y$p. P'#: -ka3. Now w"at i. m3 coins were on an e0c"an(e. , want to (o a"ead and pa3 3o$. !o now , "ave to (o a"ead and (o to t"e e0c"an(e+ wit"draw+ wait .or con.irmation+ (o to 3o$r wa))et+ wait .or a con.irmation. 9"at t"is wi)) do is a))ow me+ i. t"e e0c"an(e+ 3o$+ m3se). are a)) in t"is same network+ wit"in a second or so+ we can move mone3 aro$nd & or coin aro$nd. !#: -"+ oka3. P'#: And t"e .act t"at it6s a)read3 4een on t"e network+ it6s a)read3 4een con.irmed. !o+ we can veri.3 i. t"e transaction6s 4een )e(it. And .or 3o$+ 3o$ don6t "ave to keep a wa))et. 9e "ave code a)read3 .or 3o$+ 3o$ can c)ick a 4$tton+ and pop on 3o$r we4site+ and 3o$ "ave an instant in on t"e 4rid(e. !o we tr3 to so)ve+ w"at we do is we tr3 to so)ve pro4)ems.

!#: ,s t"at simi)ar to ;ipp)e8 ave 3o$ taken an3 inspiration .rom ;ipp)e on t"at8 P'#: Yea". ,6m sti)) )ookin( to ;ipp)e. 2"ere6s... , don6t want to sa3 an3t"in( a4o$t ;ipp)e ri("t now. ,6m sti)) )ookin( into it. 2"ere6s some t"in(s , rea))3 )ike as .ar as t"e m$)tip)e c$rrencies. !ome o. t"e centra)i:ation and t"e wa3 to "and)e t"e coins , don6t necessari)3 a(ree wit". B$t t"e idea is "ow do we make it eas3 .or peop)e t"at aren6t cr3pto nerds. #3 dad "as a sma)) 4$siness+ "ow does m3 dad accept /eat"ercoin wit"o$t "avin( to dea) wit" wa))ets and res3ncs and a)) t"ose iss$es8 e c)icks a 4$tton+ "e pastes it on "is we4site+ or "as one o. "is ($3s paste it on t"e we4site+ and t"e3 wi)) 5$st instant)3 work. !#: Yea"+ 4$t isn6t t"at kind o. centra)i:ed8 P'#: ,t is. !o t"ere is some centra)i:ation wit" t"at+ o. co$rse. B$t it doesn6t stop ot"ers .rom openin( t"eir own 4rid(es. 2"e idea is t"at t"is is o$r 4rid(e to demonstrate t"e concept+ 4$t we enco$ra(e ot"er peop)e. ,. 3o$ )ike t"at+ (reat. , wo$)d )ove o$r coin to 4e on 3o$r 4rid(e in instant transactions. And t"at6s t"e c"a))en(e we .ace+ is some coins .oc$s on 5$st workin( on t"e coin itse). and t"en t"e3 sa3 t"e ($3s t"at deve)oped services .or it to (o in t"e wron( direction. 2"e ot"er ($3s wo$)d sa3+ Awe)) 3o$6re 5$st workin( t"e coin+ 3o$6re (oin( t"e wron( direction.B , t"ink it6s a compromise. , want to 4e a4)e to s"ow w"at co$)d 4e done wit" t"e coins+ and 43 a)) means+ i. 3o$ want "e)p deve)opin(+ imp)ementin(+ o$r teams wo$)d 4e "app3 to "e)p 3o$. B$t ri("t now+ o$r c$stomers want an eas3 wa3 to do it. -$r 4ars want an eas3 point o. service+ ri("t. Peop)e w"o are se))in( prod$cts want an eas3 wa3 to o..er t"ese coins. Beca$se , ta)k to t"em and , sa3+ A3o$ know+ we rea))3 want 3o$ to dea) wit" /eat"ercoin.B 2"e36re )ike+ Ao"+ we )ike t"e idea 4$t we6re not tec"s. 9e don6t $nderstand t"is w"o)e wa))et. , want to make it.B so+ A"e3 do 3o$ "ave an on)ine 4ankin(8B AYea" we do!B A*reat+ do t"e same t"in(.B !#: ,s t"at prett3 m$c" )ike t"e .$t$re w"ere 3o$ see /eat"ercoin (oin(8 @o 3o$ "ave ot"er ideas8 P'#: 9e do. *os"+ t"ere6s so man3 t"in(s we6re workin( on ri("t now. -ka3+ s$re. -ne o. t"e 4i((est c"a))en(es ri("t now... m3 #om. , was t"inkin( m3 parents. Beca$se t"e3 are not comp$ter tec" at a))+ )et a)one

cr3pto. ow does m3 #om 4$3 /eat"ercoin8 , mean+ t"ink a4o$t t"at process+ "ow do 3o$ 4$3 Litecoin8 !#: -"+ 3o$ (otta (o on B2%&E. P'#: Yo$ (o t"ro$(" t"at process and 3o$ "ave to do it wit" an e0c"an(e and+ o" m3 (oodness. 2o (et 3o$r $ser to 4$3 an3t"in( 4esides 4itcoins is a c"a))en(e+ isn6t it8 2"ere6s a )ot o. t"in(s invo)ved. !#: Even to 4$3 4itcoin is a c"a))en(e. P'#: 2"at6s even a c"a))en(e. *ood point. , mean+ and t"en sma))er ones+ (ood )$ck on t"at. 9it" t"is 4rid(e+ we6re workin( on t"e 4ondin( and we6re workin( on t"e re($)ations w"ere 3o$6)) 4e a4)e to 4$3 t"ro$(" .iat. /iat c$rrenc3 3o$6)) 4e a4)e to 4$3 o$r coins direct)3 wit" cas". !#: 2"at6s rea))3 $se.$). %oo). P'#: 2"e c"a))en(e+ o. co$rse+ is re($)ation. 2"ere6s a )ot o. t"in(s we "ave to (et in p)ace+ 4$t .or t"e /eat"er side+ t"is is a)) new to $s. 9e "aven6t "ad to work wit" acco$ntants and )aw3ers and t"ose t"in(s. P"oeni0 "as t"at e0perience+ so t"e36re p$))in( t"ose reso$rces and we6re ($idin( t"at t"in(. !o+ event$a))3+ 3o$6)) 4e a4)e to se)) it .or cas"+ deposit wit" cas" 4asica))3+ an3one w"o wants to (et a "o)d o. a coin wi)) "ave eas3 access to it. ,t6s not aro$nd ne0t week+ ne0t mont"+ 4$t it6s c)ose. , re.$se to (ive a date a(ain 4eca$se we missed o$r 4i( re)ease .or t"e 4rid(e. ,6m s$re 3o$6ve pro4a4)3 "eard a4o$t t"at8 !#: , didn6t "eard a4o$t t"at. P'#: *ood+ ,6ve "eard a4o$t t"at. !o+ , )earned somet"in( w"en it comes to cr3pto deve)opment & w"en it6s done. ,6m (onna sa3 w"en it6s done. !#: -k+ .air eno$(". Peter+ t"ank 3o$ so m$c" .or ta)kin( to me toda3. P'#: ;ea))3 appreciate sittin( down wit" 3o$+ kind o. ,ndian st3)e. !#: Yea"! 9e "ad a pow wow+ t"is was .$n. And w"ere can peop)e .ind&8 ,s it /eat"ercoin.or(8

P'#: Yea"+ 3o$ can .ind $s at /eat"ercoin.com+ 3ea"+ or t"e partners"ip at $nocs.com. !#: %oo)+ t"ank 3o$ so m$c"+ t"is was .$n. P'#: , appreciate t"at+ t"ank 3o$. Advertisement i+ !tep"anie "ere. 9o$)d 3o$ )ike to t$rn 3o$r 4ook into an ent"ra))in( a$dio 4ook8 Need a pers$asive commercia) to promote 3o$r compan38 ow a4o$t a narrator .or 3o$r e0p)ainer video8 ere6s w"ere , co$)d "e)p. ,6m a .ree)ance voiceover artist+ and since =00E+ ,6ve )ent m3 voice to do:ens o. a$dio pro5ects. 2o "ear some e0amp)es o. m3 work+ c"eck o$t m3 we4site+ !#7oice.in.o. ,. 3o$ )ike w"at 3o$ "ear+ ,6d )ove to 4e t"e voice o. 3o$r ne0t pro5ect. *et in to$c" at !#7oice.in.o. Eas3@N! is t"e !wiss&Arm3 Mni.e .or 3o$r domain names. e)pin( meet t"eir c$stomers6 individ$a) needs since DEE>. Eas3@N! "as 4een an o$tspoken critic o. !-PA and %,!PA. Eas3@N! was an ear)3 s$pporter o. 4itcoin and now t"e3 are pro$d to sponsor t"is s"ow. @o 4$siness wit" a compan3 t"at s"ares 3o$r va)$es. *et a DCH disco$nt w"en 3o$ pa3 wit" 4itcoin. *o to 4itcoin.eas3dns.com and 4e s$re to $se disco$nt code L2B. (#$sic) ABL: ,6m 5oined t"is mornin( 43 #arc oc"stein+ editor o. t"e American Banker #a(a:ine. 2"at was an interestin( con.erence t"at we 5$st attended. ,t was a )itt)e 4it o. a di..erent crowd t"an , t"ink , was e0pectin(. 2"ere was a )ot o. miners t"ere. 2"ere was a )ot o. vent$re capita) t"ere t"at we saw. 2"ere was a )ot o. re($)ator3 instit$tions t"ere. Yo$ know+ it seems )ike t"ere are some c"an(es t"at are kind o. comin( to Bitcoin 5$st 4eca$se t"ese peop)e are takin( an interest and t"ese partic$)ar t3pes o. (ro$ps are (ettin( invo)ved. ,6m kind o. c$rio$s .or 3o$r take+ w"at did 3o$ t"ink o. t"e con.erence8 # : , (ot a )ot o$t o. it. , was sort o. impressed at t"e ec)ectic mi0 o. t"e crowd. Yo$ "ad 3o$r e0c"an(e operators+ 3o$ "ad 3o$r entreprene$rs+ 3o$ "ad 3o$r 7%6s+ 4$t 3o$ "ad a .ew peop)e t"at , know (oin( 4ack .rom American Banker. Yo$ know+ 4ankin( )aw3ers+ comp)iance peop)e+ 3o$ know+ peop)e w"o "ave 4een in t"e pa3ment ind$str3 & in t"e mainstream

pa3ment ind$str3 .or a w"i)e. And considerin( t"e price o. t"e con.erence+ , don6t t"ink t"at it was p$re)3 c$riosit3 t"at t"e3 were t"ere. , t"ink t"at peop)e w"o "ave e0pertise in comp)iance and w"o "ave 4een doin( comp)iance .or mone3 services 4$sinesses and mone3 transmitters pro4a4)3 see an opport$nit3 to se)) t"eir e0pertise and t"eir advice. Partic$)ar)3 (iven t"at t"ere6s a )ot o. concern now amon( Bitcoin&re)ated companies a4o$t comp)iance and a )ot o. $ncertaint3 a4o$t w"at e0act)3 t"e r$)es are dependin( on w"at 3o$r 4$siness mode) is. And o. co$rse+ t"e most interestin( t"in( , noticed as , was )eavin( t"e cocktai) "o$r & t"ere was someone .rom t"e /B, t"ere and "e "ad a 4i( name ta(+ , didn6t catc" "is name+ 4$t it said /B, specia) a(ent. , ($ess "e wasn6t a secret a(ent+ ot"erwise "e wo$)dn6t "ave 4een advertisin( on "is name ta(. -"+ and Boo:e A))en ami)ton "ad a co$p)e peop)e t"ere. ABL: , didn6t see t"at. # : Yea"+ and ,6ve ta)ked to t"ose ($3s. Act$a))3+ .$nn3 eno$("+ it was )ike a co$p)e weeks 4e.ore t"e !nowden t"in( 4roke. , "ad ta)ked to t"em. 2"e3 are pa3in( attention to t"e virt$a) c$rrenc3 space+ 3o$ know+ (overnment contractor o4vio$s)3+ 4$t , t"ink t"e3 do some cons$)tin( .or 4anks and t"e36ve "ired peop)e w"o "ave worked at 2reas$r3+ worked at -/A%+ worked in A#L comp)iance. Yo$ "ad t"at e)ement+ and 3o$ "ad t"e serio$s 4$siness e)ement+ 4$t 3o$ know+ 3o$ sti)) "ad sort o. t"e idea)& t"ere6s a )itt)e 4it o. t"e idea)istic Bitcoiner crowd in t"ere too w"ic" is nice 4eca$se t"at6s a ver3 endearin( (ro$p o. peop)e. ABL: !o+ 3o$6ve 4een watc"in( t"is space now kind o. .rom an , don6t want to sa3 o$tsider perspective+ 4eca$se 3o$ do sort o. inte(rate into t"e comm$nit3 to a certain e0tent & do 3o$ "ave )ike a time)ine or an3 sort o. ($ess w"ere we6)) .ind o$rse)ves si0 mont"s .rom now8 Beca$se a(ain+ it seems )ike t"is comp)iance st$..+ we6re startin( to come to a "ead on it+ and ri("t now+ we "ave some ($idance 4$t t"ere aren6t rea))3 an3 r$)es and t"e ($idance co$)d c"an(e. ,s t"ere+ was t"ere a vi4e 3o$ t"o$("t8 2"at t"is is (oin( one wa3 or t"e ot"er8 # : 2"ere was some nervo$sness , sensed. 2on3 *a))ippi .rom BitPa3 said t"at ever3 Bitcoin 4$siness "as 4een dropped 43 at )east one 4ank. And "e mentioned t"at t"ere was an act$a) merc"ant. Not an #!B+ or mone3 transmitter+ or a 4itcoin e0c"an(er+ 4$t 5$st a merc"ant t"at accepted 4itcoin and (ot dropped .rom t"eir 4ank 5$st 4eca$se t"e3 accepted 4itcoin as a .orm

o. pa3ment as opposed to w"atever ot"er .orms o. pa3ment t"e3 take. !o+ , mean+ , t"ink t"at t"ere6s )ike an... and even 4itcoin&.riend)3 4anks are at t"e ver3 )east .$)) $p on t"e amo$nt o. 4$siness t"e36d 4e wi))in( to take on. ,6d 4e )3in( i. , said , "ad a cr3sta) 4a)) and , knew "ow it was (onna pa3 o$t. B$t , do t"ink t"at t"ere "as to 4e some kind o. a con.rontation. , $se t"at word a )itt)e 4it )oose)3+ 4$t t"ere co$)d 4e con(ressiona) "earin(s. , wo$)dn6t 4e s$rprised to see t"at 4e.ore t"e end o. t"e 3ear. 2"e 4est o$tcome wo$)d 4e i. it prompted a candid disc$ssion a4o$t a)) t"ese r$)es+ t"ese )e(ac3 r$)es+ in t"ese )e(ac3 s3stems and t"ese )e(ac3 re($)ations t"at are kind o. 4ein( s"oe"orned to app)3 to t"ese new 4$siness mode)s. , t"ink t"at t"ere s"o$)d 4e+ and , sort o. "ave (otten at t"is at some o. t"e t"in(s t"at ,6ve written+ and 'o"n #atonis wo$)d p$t it in even stron(er words in t"e co)$mns t"at "e6s written+ t"at peop)e need to take a "ard )ook at t"e w"o)e A#L re(ime in po)ic3 circ)es. Yo$ know+ "ow m$c" are we (ettin( o$t o. it8 ow is it rea))3 4ene.itin( $s8 And w"at6s t"e co))atera) dama(e8 ,. we are (oin( to a cas")ess societ3+ w"ic" , 4e)ieve we are doin( s)ow)3+ and t"at6s most)3 a (ood t"in( i. 3o$ consider cas" ine..icient+ 4$t i. we are (onna (o in t"at direction w"ere it6s (onna 4e a wor)d o. most)3 e)ectronic pa3ments+ s"o$)dn6t we "ave to carve o$t a space .or pa3ments t"at are anon3mo$s8 ,6m even .ramin( it too narrow)3 a)read3+ 4eca$se i. we can (et rid o. p"3sica) cas" t"at6s a)) we)) and (ood+ 4$t t"ere s"o$)d 4e some .orm o. di(ita) cas". And 4itcoin "appens to 4e t"e most s$ccess.$) di(ita) cas" t"at t"ere "as 4een. 2"ere "ave 4een ot"er attempts at it t"at "ave 5$st sort o. .)opped. Bitcoin "as (ained t"e most traction. ,6ve ta)ked a4o$t anon3mit3 4e.ore and , stand 43 t"e position t"at we "ave to )ive wit" t"at and t"at t"ere "as to 4e a space .or t"at. 2"at t"ere are per.ect)3 )e(itimate reasons .or peop)e to want to make pa3ments anon3mo$s)3+ w"et"er it6s in person or w"et"er it6s on t"e ,nternet. Anot"er aspect o. cas" & and t"is came $p at t"e con.erence+ and t"is was (reat+ 4eca$se 3o$ "ad 2on3+ and 3o$ "ad some ot"er merc"ant processin( t3pes presentin(+ is t"at .or certain t3pes o. merc"ants+ one o. t"e virt$es o. cas" is t"e irrevoca4i)it3 o. transactions.. , .ear t"at t"e ne0t wave o. tras" ta)kin( a4o$t Bitcoin is (oin( to 4e .oc$sin( on t"at. ,s (oin( to 4e .oc$sin( on+ o"+ it6s a)) a rip o... And 3o$ know+ t"e virt$e is t"at s$pposed)3 t"ere6s no c"ar(e 4acks and t"e cons$mers are (onna pa3 .or st$.. on)ine+ t"e36re (onna (et ripped o... Even as we (et rid o. cas"+ some merc"ants s"o$)d 4e a4)e to "ave wa3s to (et paid t"at are irreversi4)e+ or at )east irreversi4)e & or not $ni)atera))3 reversi4)e. -ne o. t"e (reat t"in(s a4o$t credit cards+ and t"is is a va)$a4)e t"in( t"at a credit card compan3 provides+ is t"at t"ere is cons$mer protection+ t"ere is .ra$d

protection. 2"at is va)$a4)e+ no <$estion+ 4$t it s"o$)dn6t 4e mandator3. 2"ere "as to 4e )ots o. di..erent .)avors in t"e wor)d t"at we (o to. ABL: B$t is t"at t"e wa3 t"at societ3 is movin(8 Beca$se it seems )ike we6re movin( towards a p)ace w"ere risk is 4ein( socia)i:ed to a certain e0tent and we6re )ookin( towards America+ speci.ica))3+ 3o$ )ook at somet"in( )ike "ea)t"care+ and it seems )ike we6re movin( awa3 .rom an opt in s3stem to one w"ere 3o$ a)most opt o$t at a cost. Let me 4ack $p a second. 9e6re ta)kin( a4o$t anon3mit3 and mone3+ and , t"ink it6s important to de.ine rea))3 w"at t"at means. Anon3mit3 and mone3+ as , $nderstand it+ 4asica))3 means separatin( t"e concept o. va)$e .rom t"e concept o. identit3+ 4eca$se in a wor)d o. credit cards+ it6s not t"at 3o$ necessari)3 possess t"e mone3 as a person+ it6s t"at 3o$r .inancia) identit3 "as t"e ri("ts to spend t"e mone3. 9"ereas wit" somet"in( )ike cas"+ or )ike (o)d+ or )ike 4itcoin+ possession is t"e entiret3 o. owners"ip. # : ;i("t+ and t"at6s w"at makes it cas"&)ike. And once 3o$ spend it+ it6s (one. 2"at "as its 4ene.its and its draw 4acks .or 4ot" parties. ABL: !o+ it6s not one&si:e&.its&a)) 4asica))3 w"en it comes to mone3 t"en. # : Yea"+ e0act)3. And , co$)d see a wor)d w"ere a merc"ant wi)) accept pa3ment .rom credit cards+ or de4it cards+ or Pa3pa)+ or ma34e we won6t ca)) t"em credit cards in t"e .$t$re we6)) ca)) t"em credit acco$nts 4eca$se t"e3 won6t act$a))3 4e p"3sica) & 3o$ know+ t"e36)) a)) 4e on a p"one or w"atever. And t"en t"e36)) accept di(ita) cas" w"ic" co$)d 4e 4itcoin+ or it co$)d 4e one o. t"e a)t coins+ or it co$)d 4e Bitcoin G.0 or w"atever. 2"at t"e market wo$)d .ind kind o. a 4a)ance w"ere i. 3o$ don6t tr$st t"e merc"ant or it6s a 4i( ticket item 3o$ mi("t c"oose to sa3 ,6m (oin( to p$t t"at on m3 credit card. , mean 3o$ know+ i. , was (onna 4$3 an e)ectric ($itar or a comp$ter ,6d pro4a4)3 want to p$t it on m3 credit card toda3+ $n)ess , rea))3 rea))3 tr$sted t"e merc"ant and t"o$("t t"e3 "ad a (ood rep$tation. And t"e merc"ant can sa3+ Aoka3+ 3o$ can pa3 $s t"at wa3 4$t t"ere6s a disco$nt i. 3o$ pa3 $s wit" cas"+ 4itcoin+ or some .$t$re a)tcoin.B Yo$ know+ one o. t"e nice t"in(s now is t"at a.ter a)) t"e )e(a) sett)ements and anti&tr$st sett)ements wit" t"e credit card companies is t"at merc"ants now can do a )itt)e 4it more steerin( towards pre.erred pa3ment t3pes w"ic" t"at previo$s)3 t"e 7isa #aster%ard r$)es 4arred t"em .rom doin(. ABL: ,t6s more o. a monopo)3 s3stem.

# : ,t was. Now+ it wo$)d 4e nice i. instead o. "avin( to work t"at o$t in t"e co$rts and "avin( to pa3 )aw3ers and "ave con(ressiona) "earin(s and a)) t"is st$..+ it wo$)d 4e nice i. t"e market co$)d .orce t"at to "appen as opposed to 4)$d(eonin( it. B$t t"at6s "appened so merc"ants+ 3o$ know & merc"ants now+ w"at t"e36re a))owed to do now is s$rc"ar(e .or credit cards w"ic" is a)most t"e same t"in( as sa3in( a disco$nt .or cas". ,t6s a)most semantic. 9"3 co$)dn6t 3o$ "ave a wor)d w"ere a merc"ant "as a s$rc"ar(e .or t"e protected pa3ment or t"e identit3 4ased pa3ment & 4etter wa3 o. t"inkin( a4o$t it & and t"en a disco$nt .or t"e possession 4ased pa3ment+ t"e cas" )ike pa3ment8 @i..erent strokes .or di..erent .o)ks. ABL: Yo$ moderated t"e pane) on essentia))3 cr3ptoc$rrencies and .ree speec". ,t was Bitcoin and .ree speec". ;ea))3 4road)3+ it was ta)kin( a4o$t t"e too)s .or .ree speec". 2"at was one o. t"e most interestin( pane)s , t"ink. A )ot o. rea))3 interestin( t"in(s said t"ere. , was wonderin(+ movin( .orward+ w"at ro)e do 3o$ rea))3 .ee) )ike cr3ptoc$rrencies or identit3 )ist mone3 .orms can p)a3 in o$r societ38 , mean+ )ike in a practica) sense. # : Yo$ know+ one o. m3 .avorite stories t"at we6ve )ooked at )ate)3 on Bank 2"ink+ w"ic" is American Bankers6 4)o(+ is t"e iss$e wit" t"e !oma)i comm$nities. 2"is "as come $p in #innesota+ it6s comin( $p in t"e FM+ w"ere t"is !oma)i immi(rants send mone3 "ome+ and in !oma)ia t"at6s a 4i( part o. *@P. ,t6s a comp)ete)3 rava(ed co$ntr3. ,t6s (ettin( "arder and "arder+ t"ere6s .ewer and .ewer c"oices. ere in #innesota+ t"e3 wo$)d $se t"e awa)a 4rokers. Yo$ know+ awa)a is an ancient s3stem+ it (oes 4ack t"o$sands o. 3ears+ and it6s tota))3 tr$st 4ased. Yo$ know+ , want to send mone3 to m3 A$nt 4ack "ome so , "and t"e F! cas" to t"e awa)a 4roker and "e ca))s $p t"e KD00 or w"atever+ and t"at ($3 ca))s $p "is .riend+ t"e awa)a 4roker in !oma)ia+ and sa3s (ive t"e e<$iva)ent o. KD00 to t"is ($36s A$ntie. And at t"e end o. t"e mont" t"e3 sett)e $p and 3o$ know+ t"e3 take a .ee o$t o. t"at or w"atever. 2"ere6s no records. ABL: !o+ it6s )ike a re)ations"ip&4ased mone3 trans.er s3stem. # : 9estern Fnion does not serve !oma)ia. Pa3pa) does not serve !oma)ia. !o+ t"at6s t"e wa3 3o$ (et it over t"ere. Last 3ear in #innesota t"e )ast comm$nit3 4ank t"at was 4ankin( t"e )oca) awa)a 4roker "ad to c$t o.. t"at re)ations"ip 4eca$se o. ANL mone3 )a$nderin( re($)ation concerns. And t"ere was a 4i( $proar and t"en t"ere was )ike+ peop)e were press$rin( F! Bank %orp.+ 9e))s /ar(o+ w"ic" are t"e two 4i((est 4anks in t"at market+

t"e individ$a)s were sa3in( we as cons$mers are (onna p$)) o$r deposit acco$nts $n)ess 3o$ start servicin( mone3 trans.ers to !oma)ia. And t"at p$t t"em in a 4ind. Beca$se .rom t"e 4ank6s perspective+ it6s a 4i( risk .or t"em to 4e+ in an3 wa3+ invo)ved wit" .aci)itatin( mone3 trans.ers to a co$ntr3 )ike t"at. Beca$se i. it t$rns o$t t"at somew"ere a)on( t"e .ood c"ain someone sent mone3 and it ended $p in some terrorist or s$spected terrorist6s acco$nt+ t"e36re (onna (et a 4i( .ine. And t"e3 don6t want to to$c" it+ and t"e amo$nt o. mone3 invo)ved is pro4a4)3 not wort" t"e risk to t"em. ,6m not (onna (et a)) mora) and "i(" and mi("t3 towards t"e 4anks 4eca$se t"e36re in a to$(" spot. !o+ 3o$ know+ it was a 4i( P; "eadac"e .or t"em. F! Bank %orp.+ to t"eir credit+ did event$a))3 anno$nce a pi)ot pro(ram wit" 2a"a4 !"a"i) w"ic" was t"e 4i((est mone3 transmitter servin( !oma)ia. And , don6t know w"at t"e stat$s o. t"at is+ t"at was a4o$t si0 mont"s a(o. ,n .act+ , ca))ed a co$p)e weeks a(o and , "aven6t "eard 4ack so ,6m (oin( to sta3 on t"eir case to .ind o$t "ow t"at6s (oin(. -ver in t"e FM+ recent)3 Barc)a36s "ad a ver3 simi)ar sit$ation. Barc)a36s started droppin( re)ations"ips wit" mone3 transmitters. A4o$t >0 o. t"em and a4o$t a do:en o. t"ose were servin( !oma)ia. And t"e3 (ot raked over t"e coa)s in t"e press in t"e FM+ )ike+ 3o$6re (onna ca$se a "$manitarian crisis Barc)a36s. And it mi("t ca$se a "$manitarian crisis i. 3o$ rea))3 c$t o.. remittances. B$t a(ain+ 3o$ know+ Barc)a36s )ooked at w"at "appened to !B% 3o$ know+ , mean+ !B% ($3s didn6t (o to 5ai) 4$t+ t"e3 did "ave to pa3 a 4i( .ine and t"e3 (ot a )ot o. 4ad press and t"e3 "ad to (o to con(ressiona) "earin(s and "ave t"ese pompo$s... ABL: ,t was ver3 inconvenient. # : ,t was inconvenient. /or t"em )i.e is too s"ort. Yo$ know+ so t"e3 made a 4$siness decision to drop t"ose. Now+ 4itcoin & , don6t know w"at ,nternet connectivit3 is )ike in !oma)ia+ 4$t i. 3o$ "ave an ,nternet connection+ t"at6s prett3 m$c" a)) 3o$ need to (et a 4itcoin .rom point A to point B. !o+ t"e on)3 ot"er t"in( t"at 3o$ wo$)d need is someone to pa3 .or 4itcoin in w"atever t"e )oca) c$rrenc3 is. !o+ it 5$st c$ts o$t a)) t"is nonsense. , 5$st spent E D0 min$tes e0p)ainin( t"is ;$de *o)d4er( c"ain o. events t"at+ in t"e end+ "$rts poor peop)e a)) in t"e name o. stoppin( terrorism. Bitcoin is ne$tra). Bitcoin doesn6t care w"o 3o$ are. ,t doesn6t care i. 3o$ are a "ard workin( immi(rant sendin( mone3 "ome to #om or i. 3o$6re an evi) terrorist. ,t 5$st does w"at 3o$ te)) it to do. And it does it ver3 we)) and ver3 .ast. , t"ink t"at i. we tr3 to make mone3 not ne$tra)+ t"ere6s a )ot o. co))atera) dama(e. ,s t"at t"e on)3 wa3 to address t"e iss$e o. terrorism8

ABL: , t"ink ,6d )ike to di( a )itt)e 4it into t"is one&si:e&.its&a)) kind o. wor)d t"at we6re startin( to )ive in. ,t6s sort o. stran(e+ 4eca$se 3o$ know on t"e one "and 3o$ "ave a)) sorts o. tec"no)o(ies t"at ena4)e peop)e to (et e0act)3 w"at t"e3 want+ t"e e0act speci.ications. Yo$6ve (ot t"in(s )ike C@ printin( t"at are contin$in( to e0pand t"at .$rt"er p)a3 on t"at mean. And 3et+ 3o$ )ook at t"e wa3 t"e r$)es are made and t"e wa3 t"at peop)e6s )ives essentia))3 are (overned+ and 3o$ see t"at increasin()3 we6re movin( towards one&si:e& .its&a)) so)$tions t"at wind $p not rea))3 .ittin( man3 peop)e at a)). !o+ , mean in a ()o4a) wor)d t"is is a pro4)em t"at 4itcoin r$ns into 4eca$se a micro&transaction in t"e 9estern 9or)d is a )ar(e transaction in man3 parts o. t"e $nderdeve)oped wor)d & in t"e t"ird wor)d. , don6t know a nicer wa3 to sa3 t"at is... # : 2"e emer(in( #arkets. ABL: Emer(in( #arkets+ t"ere 3o$ (o. # : !ome o. t"em aren6t <$ite emer(in(. ABL: B$t t"e3 wi)) event$a))3. !o man3 t"in(s are c"an(in( to make it so t"at it doesn6t need to 4e t"at wa3 4$t , don6t $nderstand w"3 it seems )ike more and more wit" re($)ation we6re .indin( o$rse)ves in t"at sit$ation. # : , t"ink a )ot o. it is 5$st t"at t"e re($)ations are o$tdated and t"e36re tr3in( to 4e app)ied to new t"in(s t"at don6t <$ite map to t"e o)d cate(ories. And 3o$ see t"is o$tside o. 4itcoin+ too. , mean+ mone3 transmitter )icenses... it6s not 5$st Bitcoin t"at t"is is a pro4)em .or. , mentioned )ast time t"e sad stor3 o. Eric *reenspan and /ace %as". , read a )aw pro.essor artic)e t"at came $p ver3 recent)3 ta)kin( a4o$t t"ese mone3 transmitter & state mone3 transmitter )aws. And some o. t"em de.ined mone3 transmission so 4road)3 t"at t"e3 co$)d app)3 to 4ike messen(ers or app stores. And t"ese were )aws t"at were meant to re($)ate 9estern & and ,6m not ta)kin( a4o$t A#L "ere+ ,6m ta)kin( a4o$t state transmitter )aws t"at are ori(ina))3 desi(ned to re($)ate 4$sinesses )ike 9estern Fnion .rom a cons$mer protection standpoint. !o+ 3o$ can (ive t"e mone3 transmitter 3o$r mone3+ makin( s$re t"at it act$a))3 (ets to t"e p)ace it6s s$pposed to (et to & t"at 3o$ don6t (et ripped o... B$t t"e3 are 4ein( app)ied to 4$sinesses w"ere t"ere rea))3 isn6t t"at m$c" risk to t"e cons$mer. Like 4$sinesses t"at 4asica))3 act )ike an a(ent .or t"e pa3ee are "app3 to (et t"is )icensin( and t"is ($3 ar($es <$ite pers$asive)3+ , t"ink+ t"at 3o$ (otta take a "ard )ook at t"ose )aws and

)ook at is t"ere rea))3 risk o. "arm to t"e cons$mer8 Beca$se i. t"ere isn6t+ i. t"e 4$sinesses acceptin( pa3ment on 4e"a). o. a merc"ant+ and even i. t"at intermediar3 doesn6t pa3 t"e merc"ant+ t"ere6s no risk to t"e cons$mer. 9"3 do 3o$ "ave to pa3 t"ese .ees and add a)) t"ese comp)iance costs 4eca$se it6s disco$ra(in( start$ps+ it6s dist$r4in( innovation & it6s creatin( "i("er 4arriers to entr3. Protects inc$m4ents w"ic" is nice i. 3o$6re an inc$m4ent 4$t... ABL: ,t6s (ood work i. 3o$ can (et it. # : B$t it6s not necessari)3 (ood .or innovation and competition and a)) t"ese t"in(s t"at we s$pposed)3 4e)ieve in as a .ree market+ )i4era) societ3. Bitcoin mi("t "e)p .orce t"e iss$e. ,n some wa3s a ca$se .or optimism wo$)d 4e t"at now t"at t"ere6s a 4i( de4ate a4o$t s$rvei))ance 4road)3 and a)) t"ese 4i( reve)ations keep comin( a4o$t w"at t"e N!A is $p to. Peop)e are <$estionin( t"e t"ird&part3 doctrine+ i. 3o$ "ave records stored wit" t"e t"ird&part3+ 3o$ "ave no e0pectation o. privac3. 9"ic" "as 4een aro$nd .orever in 4ankin( & , mean+ t"e Bank !ecrec3 Act w"ic" is w"at+ , t"ink DE>0 or ear)ier. 2"e !$preme %o$rt r$)ed )on( a(o in a 4ankin( case t"at i. 3o$ "ave no e0pectation o. privac3 .or records stored wit" t"e t"ird&part3 wit" a 4ank. !o+ t"at6s w"ere it a)) (ot started. ,t seems )ike a )on( s"ot to sa3 t"at we6)) re&eva)$ate t"is in )i("t o. t"e !nowden reve)ations or w"atever. B$t 3o$ know , mean t"e Nas" amendment was on)3 narrow)3 de.eated+ w"ic" , t"ink s$rprised ever3one+ s$rprised t"e peop)e w"o are .or it+ s$rprised t"e peop)e w"o are a(ainst it. 2"e administration "as to scram4)e t"e 5ets to de.eat t"at. ,t )ooks )ike t"ere6s ver3 stron( entrenc"ed interest t"at wo$)d want to strai("t&5acket t"e new tec"no)o(ies+ 4$t optimism wo$)d pro4a4)3 4e t"e on)3 wa3 to )ook at t"in(s 4eca$se i. 3o$6re pessimistic it6s a)most c)ose to (ivin( $p. , mean+ 3o$ can 4e rea)istic+ and 3o$ can 4e care.$)+ and 3o$ can & , wo$)dn6t advise someone to 4)atant)3 4reak )aws 4eca$se t"at6s ver3 risk3. , t"ink i. peop)e speak $p+ and t"e3 are "onest and candid a4o$t t"ese iss$es+ t"en , t"ink it mi("t make a di..erence. (m$sic) Advertisement #ore t"an C00+000 $sers and co$ntin( tr$st 4)ockc"ain.in.o. ,t6s a 4itcoin wa))et service and a wea)t" o. Bitcoin in.ormation and is comp)ete)3 .ree to $se. 9it" t"e B)ockc"ain.in.o wa))et+ 3o$6)) (et t"e convenience o. a we4 wa))et+ and t"e sec$rit3 o. a desktop c)ient. B)ockc"ain.in.o is a)so a 4)ock

e0p)orer. Yo$ can $se it to see 4itcoin transactions in rea) time+ c"eck t"e 4a)ance o. an3 Bitcoin address+ and do man3 "and3 Bitcoin c"arts+ a)) .or .ree. !ee w"at t"e3 "ave to o..er toda3 at B)ockc"ain.in.o. ABL: Yo$6re )istenin( to Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin. 2"e premiere a$diocast providin( news and insi("ts t"at cover t"e rapid)3 evo)vin( wor)d o. di(ita) mone3. -$r twice&week)3 s"ow inc)$de ana)3sis o. )ate 4reakin( news+ $pdates on ke3 tec"nica)+ 4$siness+ and re($)ator3 iss$es+ and in dept" interviews wit" t"e ke3 peop)e drivin( t"e new di(ita) econom3. Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin o..ers sponsors an attractive wa3 to reac" a tar(eted and savv3 a$dience. /or more in.ormation+ emai) sponsors at Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin.com. (m$sic) ABL: !o+ )et6s ta)k a4o$t a)ternative cr3ptoc$rrencies .or a second. #arc+ "ave 3o$ )ooked at an3 cr3ptoc$rrencies 4esides Bitcoin8 # : No+ not rea))3. ,6ve )istened to 3o$ ($3s ta)kin( a4o$t Litecoin and w"atnot. , "ad an interestin( conversation wit" one o. t"e speakers at t"e con.erence w"o was workin( on an a)tcoin. , t"ink it was )ike a )oca) a)tcoin. 2"is was at %"ar)ie !"rem6s 4ar+ and t"is was a.ter a co$p)e drinks+ so , don6t remem4er t"e detai)s. , t"ink it6s (reat t"at t"ere was a)) t"ese di..erent m$tations comin( o$t. Yo$ know+ t"e more t"e merrier. /irst o. a))+ 4eca$se even t"o$(" Bitcoin is ver3 "ard to s"$t down 4eca$se it6s ver3 decentra)i:ed+ 3o$ know t"ere is t"at w"o)e... , was act$a))3 prett3 s"ocked w"en , "eard on 3o$r pro(ram w"en t"is came o$t at t"e !an 'ose con.erence t"at somet"in( )ike 4>H o. dividin( power is in one poo). (ABL: -"+ 3es. Yes.) And , t"ink t"at t"e36re ver3 conscio$s)3 tr3in( to keep it 4e)ow t"at t"res"o)d 4eca$se t"e3 $nderstand t"at t"e va)$e (oes awa3 once 3o$ (et to G0&GDH. ,t is conceiva4)e t"at someone co$)d do t"e GDH attack t"in(. And o. co$rse+ i. 3o$ destro3ed Bitcoin+ someone co$)d a)wa3s start it over a(ain. , t"ink t"e more t"e merrier. As 3o$ said one si:e .its a)) doesn6t work and a )ot o. t"em mi("t 5$st .ai) or (o now"ere 4$t 3o$ can6t knock an3one .or tr3in(. 2"at6s t"e nice t"in( a4o$t Bitcoin and t"at w"o)e comm$nit3 is t"at t"e36re e0perimentin( and t"e36re doin( t"in(s and t"e36re 4$i)din( t"in(s. Ever3one6s ta)kin( a4o$t pro5ects. A,6m ta)kin( a4o$t startin( a compan3+B A,6m startin( a start$p+B A,6m startin( an a)tc"ain.B Yo$ know+ t"e36re creators. 2"e36re not 5$st 4$))s"it artists )ike me or+ 3o$ know & a )ot o. peop)e in t"e media kind o. )ike sneer at 4itcoin and eit"er sa3+ Ao"+ it6s a waste o. timeB or A3o$6re o.. in 3o$r own )itt)e wor)d.B ,t6s a retreat & it6s not

a retreat. ,t6s ver3 socia). Bot" in terms o. t"e aspect t"at it6s peer&to&peer and t"at 5$st in terms o. )ike t"e meet$ps and events )ike !atos"i!<$are. ,t6s ver3 socia) and interactive. 2"e36re 4$i)din( somet"in(. And w"o knows "ow )on( it wi)) )ast+ 4$t w"en peop)e sco.. at t"at+ Nwe))+ w"at "ave 3o$ done8N Yo$ know+ t"e36re tr3in(. /r3coin is interestin(+ , act$a))3 want to tr3 it. Yo$ know it6s a ver3 di..erent p"i)osop"3 4e"ind it t"an t"e A$strian Economic perspective. B$t 3o$ know+ it6s kind o. interestin(. ABL: !o /reicoin is an a)tcoin t"at introd$ces a dem$rra(e .eat$re+ w"ic" 4asica))3 means t"at t"e c$rrenc3+ over time+ disappears. ,t6s not t"at it deva)$es it6s t"at )itera))3 some amo$nts o. it (o awa3 & is m3 $nderstandin(. , a)so "ave not $sed it+ 4$t t"at6s m3 $nderstandin( o. it. # : ,t addresses t"e "oardin( iss$e & i. 3o$ 4e)ieve t"at6s an iss$e. As an aside+ "oardin( is a 5$d(menta) s3non3m .or w"at o$r (randparents ca))ed savin(. B$t admitted)3+ 3es+ , mean in a weak econom3 )ike t"is w"ere in.)ation "as not 4een t"at (reat even t"o$(" despite monetar3 po)ic3. , co$)d see w"3 peop)e sa3 we)) w"3 do 3o$ care a4o$t in.)ation. %r3ptoc$rrencies don6t "ave to 4e A$strian. Yo$ co$)d "ave a Me3nesian cr3ptoc$rrenc3+ , s$ppose+ 3o$ co$)d "ave a modern monetar3 t"eor3 cr3ptoc$rrenc3. Yo$ know+ one idea t"at keeps comin( $p is t"e (overnment (oin( to co&opt a cr3ptoc$rrenc3. And , wo$)dn6t mind t"at as )on( as it rea))3 was )ike p"3sica) cas" in t"e sense t"at it "ad t"e irreversi4i)it3 and t"e s$donimit3. , don6t t"ink t"at6s (onna "appen+ 4$t it6s nice to ima(ine. B$t 3o$ know+ , t"ink t"e more t"e merrier. !o t"is ($3 , was ta)kin( to+ w"o was ta)kin( a4o$t one o. "is a)tcoins. e "ad a (reat ana)o(3. e said )ike in a .orest 3o$ need )ots o. di..erent t3pes o. .o)ia(e. ABL: #onoc$)t$re doesn6t <$ite work as we)). # : ;i("t. E0act)3. !o ma34e it s"o$)d 4e t"at wa3 wit" mone3. Even @ave Birc" w"o is not ver3 pop$)ar in t"e Bitcoin comm$nit3 4eca$se "e6s a)wa3s t"e person <$oted in Bitcoin artic)es+ sort o. damnin( it wit" "is .ake praise. B$t even "e+ "e takes t"at position t"at 3o$ s"o$)d "ave )ots o. di..erent stores o. va)$e. !o+ in t"e .$t$re t"ere wi)) 4e (overnment c$rrencies and private c$rrencies and peop)e wi)) keep some o. t"eir va)$e in 4itcoin or cr3ptoc$rrenc3+ some o. it in do))ars and some o. it in ki)owatt "o$rs. 2"e e0perimentation+ , see ver3 )itt)e downside .rom it. B$t we were sa3in( ear)ier wit" t"e merc"ants t"e more a)ternatives t"e merrier. -ne o. t"e t"in(s , wanted to mention a4o$t ne$tra)it3 t"at , didn6t (et a c"ance to sa3

on t"e pane) 4$t it6s 5$st a (reat e0amp)e. ,. 3o$ (o to a site ca))ed coin@L.com+ t"e3 se)) content+ t"e3 se)) eBooks+ t"e3 se)) m$sic. 2"ere6s a m$sician in ,ran named #$"ammed ;a.i<. ,6m not s$re i. ,6m prono$ncin( "is )ast name ri("t. e6s in ,ran. "e se))s mpC6s o. "is m$sic t"ro$(" t"is site. ,t is not i))e(a) $nder t"e sanctions to 4$3 m$sic .rom someone in ,ran. , "ave con.irmed t"at. , ca))ed t"e F! 2reas$r3 and , speci.ica))3 asked t"em t"at. 2"e3 said t"ere is an e0ception .or in.ormation. As a practica) matter+ t"o$("+ it wo$)d 4e ver3 di..ic$)t were it not .or 4itcoin .or t"is ($3 to se)) "is m$sic an3w"ere o$tside t"e co$ntr3 "e6s in. B$t ,+ in t"e Fnited !tates+ can (o on)ine and .or a minisc$)e price , can down)oad "is mpC6s. And 43 t"e wa3 peop)e do sti)) pa3 .or m$sic and m$sicians are tr3in( to make some 4read in a co$ntr3 $nder cripp)in( sanctions as o$r president p$t it. Yo$ know+ i. it "e)ps t"em a )itt)e 4it+ t"at6s (ood .or "$manit3. 2"e a)4$m is... it6s sort o.... ABL: ,s it to 3o$r taste8 ,t was more a4o$t t"e s$pport. # : E""""". ABL: ,t was more a4o$t t"e s$pport. # : ,t was more a4o$t t"e s$pport... , mean+ it6s oka3. ,t6s t"e t3pe o. m$sic 3o$ "ear in t"e spa w"en 3o$6re (ettin( a microderma4rasian .acia) or somet"in(+ 4$t it6s (ood to )isten to w"en 3o$6re in a room 4$rnin( aroma t"erap3 cand)es. ,t6s not an a)4$m , wo$)d want to (o to 5ai) .or. ABL: ,t6s (ood t"at 3o$ c"ecked t"at. Yo$ occasiona))3 write a4o$t Bitcoin+ 4$t American Banker it seems )ike "as 4een r$nnin( <$ite a .ew stories a4o$t 4itcoin 4etween 3o$ and 'o"n #atonis. Yo$ speak to .inancia) pro.essiona)s and peop)e w"o are speci.ica))3 in t"e ind$str3+ w"at t3pe o. reception "ave 3o$ (otten .rom 3o$r a$dience8 Are 3o$ (ettin( peop)e sa3in(+ Aw"3 are 3o$ coverin( t"is8B or is it more c$riosit38 -r w"at6s t"e8 # : 2"ere6s a )ot o. c$riosit3. it6s a)) over t"e map. /or most 4ankers ri("t now+ , wo$)dn6t sa3 Bitcoin is top o. t"e )ine .or t"em. 2"e36ve (ot a )ot o. iss$es. 2"e36ve (ot t"e @odd /rank )e(is)ation w"ic" is t"o$sands o. pa(es )on(. And a )ot o. it "asn6t rea))3 4een p$t into practice 3et 4eca$se t"e )e(is)ators "aven6t p$t in a)) t"e r$)es. 2"e36ve (ot t"e Base) t"ree capita) re($)ations w"ic" are sti)) 4ein( ironed o$t+ interest rates+ )ow interest rates+ "ave made it ver3 "ard to make mone3 in t"eir traditiona) 4$siness o. takin( deposits and makin( )oans. Lon(&term rates are startin( to tick $p 4$t t"at6s

4een a mi0ed 4)essin( .or t"em 4eca$se t"e mort(a(e re.i 4oom t"at t"e36ve 4een en5o3in(+ t"e36ve 4een (ettin( a )ot o. earnin(s o$t o. .or a w"i)e+ 5$st came to an a4r$pt "a)t and now t"e36ve (ot to )a3 o.. a)) t"eir mort(a(e peop)e t"at t"e31ve 4een "irin(. !o+ 4ankers are ver3 conservative 43 nat$re. 2"e36re risk averse at )east w"en it comes to certain kinds o. risks. 2"e36ve (ot a )ot o. t"in(s on t"eir p)ate ri("t now. 2"ere6s some skepticism. -4vio$s)3+ 3o$ can te)) .rom 4e"avior t"at t"e36re war3 o. dea)in( wit" 4itcoin&re)ated 4$sinesses pro4a4)3 5$st o$t o. a comp)iance risk concern. B$t t"ere6s a)so c$riosit3 a4o$t it and , t"ink t"ere is some reco(nition t"at t"ere needs to 4e innovation. 9e did a series on 4ank t"ink ca))ed t"e .$t$re mode) o. 4ankin( w"ic" 'o"n contri4$ted to and 'o"n t"inks t"at t"ere6s an opport$nit3 .or t"e 4anks to serve t"ese 4$sinesses to "e)p t"em on t"e comp)iance .ront 4eca$se t"e 4anks+ i. not"in( e)se+ know comp)iance ver3 we)). e said it6s kind o. )ike t"eir )ast m$))i(an pa3ments 4e.ore t"e3 (et tr$)3 disr$pted. ,6m ver3 ()ad t"at 'o"n writes a co)$mn .or $s. , rea))3 )ike "avin( a voice )ike t"at in t"e mi0. , mean+ it6s not core <$ite 3et+ 4itcoin+ 4$t it6s part o. a core t"eme .or .inancia) services now and .or t"e 3ears to come is disr$ption and 4itcoin is one o. t"e most disr$ptive tec"no)o(ies t"ere is. ,t6s .$nn3 4eca$se in 4ankin(+ we Aoo"B and Aaa"B over t"in(s )ike mo4i)e remote cas"er o. c"ecks. 2"at6s rea))3 5$st sort o. ABL: ,t6s an $pdate to an anti<$ated tec"no)o(3. # : ,t6s a patc". And at some point t"at !"ak did on t"at pane) we did. ABL: 2"at6s !"aki) M"an. # : ;i("t+ t"at6s !"aki) M"an. '$st t"e a4s$rdit3 t"at in =0DC , can send 3o$ an emai) and 3o$6)) (et it in seconds. Yo$ know+ 3o$ can down)oad an mpC in seconds or , can send 3o$ an3 kind o. data .i)e in seconds. B$t to trans.er mone3 to someone+ even )ike KD0+ t"ro$(" t"e 4ankin( s3stem is s$c" a "ass)e. ,t can take da3s. And it can cost more t"an t"e amo$nt o. mone3 t"at 3o$6re sendin(. ABL: 2"at one&si:e&.its&a))&t"in( a(ain. # : E0act)3+ e0act)3. And , t"ink t"at an important e0amp)e is in t"e A$tomated %)earin( o$se+ t"ere6s a pa3ment s3stem t"at is co))ective)3 owned 43 t"e 4anks. !ometimes+ i. 3o$ )ook on 3o$r 4ankin( statement 3o$ see t"e A% + t"at6s w"at t"at means t"at means t"at t"is mone3 was sent t"ro$(" t"e A$tomated %)earin( o$se. ,t is one o. t"e )ower cost pa3ment

s3stems in t"e traditiona) 4ankin( wor)d. A4o$t a 3ear a(o+ t"ere was a vote amon( t"e 4ankin( mem4ers over w"et"er to 4asica))3 make it mandator3 t"at ever34od3 4e read3 to do same&da3 sett)ement o. .$nds on A% . A ma5orit3 o. mem4ers voted .or it 4$t t"e3 did not (et t"e JGH t"at t"e3 needed to pass it. !o+ instead+ w"at NA% A+ t"at6s t"e association t"at oversees A% + is doin( is a vo)$ntar3 same&da3 sett)ement. 9"at t"at means is t"at i. 4ot" t"e sender6s 4ank and t"e receiver6s 4ank are participatin(. ABL: , mean+ it seems )ike it6s inconvenient .or c$stomers+ and i. it6s inconvenient .or c$stomers+ t"en it s"o$)d 4e a pro4)em as .ar as t"e 4ank is concerned. !o+ w"at is t"e incentive .or t"e 4anks not to do t"is8 # : 2"ere were o45ections over t"e cost o. $pdatin( s3stems. 2"ere were concerns a4o$t .ra$d. ABL: /ra$d... 4$t isn6t t"is a 4ank&to&4ank s3stem8 # : ,t6s a 4ank to 4ank s3stem 4$t+ 3o$ know+ t"at someone "as sto)en acco$nt in.ormation or somet"in(. ABL: 2"e3 want time to 4e a4)e to .ind t"at o$t and reverse it. # : Yea"+ e0act)3+ e0act)3. And o. co$rse no one wi)) admit t"is+ 4$t o. co$rse some o. t"e s$spicion was t"e 4i( 4anks didn6t want to canni4a)i:e wire trans.er reven$es. 2"is "as 4een reported t"at it was t"e 4i( 4anks t"at ki))ed it. !ome o. t"e )itt)e 4anks o45ected+ 4$t t"e )itt)e 4anks were eit"er .or it or indi..erent. ,t was t"e 4i( 4anks t"at torpedoed it in t"e end. Beca$se , t"ink t"e3 (et a disproportionate s"are o. t"e votes. Beca$se t"e3 (et more vo)$me on t"e s3stem. Yo$ know+ Bitcoin "as s"own+ not t"at Bitcoin is necessari)3 t"e on)3 wa3+ 4$t it is s"owin( t"at it is possi4)e to trans.er a di(ita) monetar3 asset a)most instant)3 and "ave it 4e done. ;i("t8 ABL: ,s t"ere a space .or a)ternatives8 , mean+ t"is is a <$estion t"at ,6ve rea))3 4een t"inkin( a4o$t a )ot. 9it" s3stems )ike t"is+ wit" t"e A% + t"e reason w"3 t"e3 can (et awa3 wit" t"at and not "ave to & not "ave to $pdate to more modern standards rea))3. Beca$se t"at6s w"at we were ta)kin( a4o$t & )ike !"ak was sa3in(+ 3o$ can6t send sma)) amo$nts o. mone3 or even )ar(e amo$nts o. mone3 .ast+ 4$t 3o$ can wit" t"ese a)ternatives. Yo$ know+ to a certain e0tent+ 3o$ can app)3 t"at same sort o. standard to t"e c$rrent monetar3 re(imes t"at we )ive in+ w"ere we "ave mone3 and ever3one is in.)atin( t"eir c$rrenc3 aro$nd t"e wor)d+ and so )on( as ever3one in.)ates at

t"e same time 4asica))3+ and w"en , sa3 in.)ate , sa3 add to t"e monetar3 s$pp)3+ so )on( as ever34od3 p)a3s a)on( wit" t"at (ame and keeps in tandem wit" eac" ot"er t"en not"in( rea))3 c"an(es. B$t w"en 3o$ introd$ce a)ternatives to t"e sit$ation+ t"at seems )ike it6s dan(ero$s to t"e e<$i)i4ri$m o. t"e s3stem. ,6ve 4een wonderin( i. t"ere is a p)ace in a s3stem )ike we "ave now .or an3 kind o. a)ternative t"at .i0es t"ese pro4)ems to t"e detriment o. t"e e0istin( s3stem. # : , "ope so. , mean+ , rea))3 "ope so. 2"e reaction to 4itcoin so .ar. Yo$ can read it eit"er wa3. , mean t"e /in%EN director did sa3 we we)come t"e innovation o. virt$a) c$rrencies and we 5$st want t"em to .o))ow t"e )aw and .o))ow t"e r$)es. 9e6)) see i. t"at6s )ip service or "ow sincere t"at is. , t"ink+ in t"e )on( term+ it6s & and we ta)ked )ast time a4o$t t"e anti&.ra(i)e 4ook. ,n t"e )on( term+ it6s 4etter .or sta4i)it3 to "ave )ots o. centers t"an "ave one center i. 3o$ 4$3 Nassim 2a)i46s ar($ment+ one center+ one point o. .ai)$re+ it6s more dan(ero$s. And i. 3o$ "ave )ots and )ots o. di..erent "eads and )ots o. di..erent nodes... , t"ink it6s in ever3one6s interest to 4e a )itt)e more .)e0i4)e and sa3 )et a t"o$sand .)owers 4)oom. 2o $se a p"rase 43 a coin 43 a ($3 w"o didn6t mean it+ 4$t it6s a (reat p"rase and t"at6s t"e wa3 , t"ink a4o$t t"is. Even i. it t"reatens 3o$r && 4eca$se , don6t t"ink 4itcoin tomorrow is (onna take awa3 a w"o)e )ot o. reven$e .rom 9estern Fnion or Pa3pa). Yo$ know+ it mi("t over t"e )on( term+ 4$t s$pposed)3+ we )ive in a societ3 t"at competition is "ea)t"3 and t"at competition wi))... Bitcoin co$)d 4e (ood .or 4anks in t"e )on( term sense in t"at i. it .orces t"em to 4ecome more responsi4)e c$stomers+ and it .orces t"em to stream)in+e and to not "ave t"is con.$sin( )ike: 3o$r avai)a4)e 4a)ance is+ 3o$r present 4a)ance... , can6t 4e)ieve t"e3 sti)) do t"at in =0DC. And 3o$ know as a cons$mer , never (ot t"at. And , know it6s 4eca$se t"e36ve (ot t"ese o)d s3stems and it6s comp)icated. #a34e it6s comparin( app)es to oran(es to compare t"e two. ,t6s 5$st .$nn3+ 4itcoiners (et .r$strated w"en t"e3 "ave to wait =0 min$tes .or t"e con.irmation. B$t t"at6s (onna 4e w"at t"e standard is and t"at6s (onna 4e w"at peop)e demand. , t"ink it6s in ever3one6s interest to )et t"e a)ternatives 4)oom. ABL: #arc oc"stein+ American Banker. 2"ank 3o$ ver3 m$c" .or 3o$r time. # : #3 p)eas$re+ a)wa3s.

ABL: 2"anks .or )istenin( to episode 40 o. Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin. %ontent .or toda36s s"ow is provided 43 !tep"anie #$rp"3+ Peter 'o"n #ac)aviti+ and #arc oc"stein. #$sic was provided 43 'ared ;$4ins. ,. 3o$ can6t (et eno$(" ori(ina) t"o$("t and disc$ssion+ read o$r dai)3 4)o( at Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin.com+ si(n $p .or t"e week)3 news)etter at t"eweek)34itcoin.com+ and participate in o$r )istener interactionar3 at Let1s 2a)k Bitcoin.comOta)k. !ee 3a ne0t time!