LETS TALK BITCOIN

Episode 51 Moneys We Believe In

Participants: Adam B. Levine (ABL) !st Andreas ". Ant!n!p!#$!s (AA) C!%&!st 'r Step&anie "#rp&( (S") C!%&!st Peter S#rda (PS) Pane$ist (Bitc!in ec!n!mist) ABL: i and )e$c!me t! Epis!de *+ !, Lets Ta$- Bitc!in ,!r Oct!.er +/0 12+3. 4isit #s at ))).$etsta$-.itc!in.c!m ,!r !#r dai$( 5#est .$!50 a$$ !#r past epis!des and0 !, c!#rse0 tippin5 addresses. "( name is Adam B. Levine and t!da( )ere .ac- in t&e ,$!). Im 6!ined0 !nce a5ain0 .( Andreas ". Ant!n!p!#$!s and Step&anie "#rp&(. Andreas te$$s #s a.!#t &is recent disc!ver( t&at n!t a$$ d!$$ars are created e7#a$0 &!) &e ,!#nd a )a$$et ,#$$ !, paper0 and )&at )e can eac& d! t! a,,!rd a simi$ar ,ate. T&en0 )e &ead .ac- t! 8e!r5ia ,!r a $!n5 disc#ssi!n )it& Peter S#rda0 t&e 7#intessentia$ Bitc!in ec!n!mist. T&is )ide%ran5in5 intervie) c!vers a $!t !, 5r!#nd and !cc#pies m!st !, t&e s&!). T&en0 Step&anie &as .een )atc&in5 Litec!in ,!r a )&i$e and d!esnt $i-e )&at s&e sees. 9e ta$- #ti$it(0 t&e mar-et as a ,!r)ard $!!-in5 mec&anism and a $!t m!re. 4ide! c!n,erence passes are n!) avai$a.$e )it& t&e intr!d#cti!n and -e(n!te .( :e,,re( T#c-er and t&e ,irst &!#r $!n5 pane$ avai$a.$e ,!r ,ree. ;!r near$( si< &!#rs !, ,res& c!n,erence ta$-s0 $ect#res0 and pane$s0 s#pp!rt Lets Ta$- Bitc!in and visit )))..itc!invide!pass.c!m. En6!( t&e s&!)= >+:+?@ AA: O,ten0 )e Bitc!iners ma-e t&e mista-e !, tr(in5 t! create per,ect m!ne(0 and in man( disc#ssi!ns Ive &ad0 )&en )e ta$- a.!#t t&in5s $i-e paper )a$$ets !r transactin5 Bitc!in !,, .$!c-c&ain etc0 pe!p$e ass#me t&at t&at can !n$( )!r- )it& +22A sec#rit(. T&e tr#t& is t&at !ne !#t !, a t&!#sand !, ever( !ne !, t&e paper .i$$s t&ats in (!#r )a$$et is pr!.a.$( c!#nter,eit0 and recent$(0 I 5!t t&at e<perience ,irst&and )&en I )as passed B*22 in c!#nter,eit B12s. Id $i-e t! ta$- a .it a.!#t m( e<perience 5ettin5 d#ped m!re s! t&an #s#a$. >+:*+@ SM: S!rr( t! &ear a.!#t t&at Andreas0 t&at s#c-s % .#t )ait a min#te0 arent t&e( a$$ c!#nter,eitC I mean0 t&e ;edera$ Deserve 6#st prints t&e m!ne( -ind !, !#t !, t&in air0 t&ats )&at )e &ear a $!t !, pe!p$e sa(. >1:2+@ ABL: 9e$$0 I 5#ess n!t a$$ paper is created e7#a$. >1:23@ AA: I t&in- its t&e di,,erence .et)een (!#r )!rt&$ess ,iat .ein5 .ac-ed .( a pr!mise .( Ben Bernan-e !r .( e)$ett Pac-ard in-6et printers. >1:+1@ ABL: Its $ess imp!rtant a.!#t )&et&er !r n!t its paper and m!re imp!rtant a.!#t )&!s 5!in5 t! va$#e t&at paper0 and certain$( s!me pe!p$e c!#nter,eit paper % t&ats t&e pr!.$em. Andreas0 &!) e<act$( did t&is &appenC 9ere (!# n!t a.$e t! te$$ .et)een t&e c!#nter,eit .i$$s vers#s rea$ .i$$s0 I mean .eca#se (!#re a prett( savv( 5#( )&en it c!mes t! t&is s!rt !, t&in5. >1:1E@

AA: Fep0 I )as d#ped. I c!#$d n!t te$$ t&e di,,erence. I -ne) t&ere )as s!met&in5 a tin( .it !,, .eca#se t&e( ,e$t 7#ite t&ic-. T&e( ,e$t rea$$( $i-e .rand ne) .i$$s d! )&en t&e(ve 6#st c!me !#t &!t !,, t&e press. T&e( )ere sti$$ ver(0 ver( crisp and sti,,. T&at s&!#$d &ave .een a )arnin5 .#t0 at t&e time0 I )asnt s!p&isticated en!#5& in detectin5 c!#nter,eit .i$$s and s!0 t&ere,!re0 I made t&e mista-e !, ta-in5 t&em. Be$ieve me0 t&e( $!!- $i-e rea$ d!$$ar .i$$s. Since t&en0 Ive deve$!ped a $itt$e 5ame t&at )e p$a( at t&e meet#ps )&ere I present pe!p$e )it& $aminated card t&at &as ,!#r B12 .i$$s in and I as- t&em t! sp!t t&e ,a-e !ne. I pa( a re)ard in .itc!ins 6#st t! ma-e it interestin5 and s! ,ar0 !n$( a.!#t !ne in ,!#r pe!p$e act#a$$( ,i5#re !#t )&ic& B12 .i$$ is ,a-e0 even t&!#5& t&e( -n!) t&at ri5&t in ,r!nt !, t&em t&e( &ave a ,a-e !ne0 and t&e( sti$$ 5et it )r!n5. F!# -n!)0 I d!nt t&in- its t&at eas(. T&ats rea$$( t&e .!tt!m $ine. 9e $ive in a )!r$d )it&!#t per,ect c#rrenc( sec#rit( and m!st !, #s are !- )it& t&at .eca#se0 m!st time0 )e eit&er d!nt n!tice !r )e pass it !n )it&!#t n!ticin50 and s! .ad m!ne( circ#$atin5 )it& 5!!d d!esnt c!mp$ete$( destr!( t&e 5!!d m!ne( #n$ess its rea$$( at a &i5& percenta5e !, circ#$ati!n. I t&in- t&ats an imp!rtant $ess!n ,!r Bitc!in0 t!!. >3:?*@ ABL: Dea$$(0 its a.!#t t&e c!n,idence t&at t&e c#rrenc( t&at (!#re )!r-in5 )it& isnt c!#nter,eit m#c& m!re s! t&an .ein5 a.$e t! pr!va.$( sa( t&at its n!t c!#nter,eit .eca#se a5ain0 its $ess a.!#t )&at t&e m!ne( is and m!re a.!#t )&at it can d! ,!r (!#. I, its ,a-e and its eas( t! te$$ t&at its ,a-e0 t&en c&ances are prett( 5!!d its n!t 5!in5 t! .e as #se,#$ t! (!# as m!ne( t&ats n!t. A ,a-e t&ats 6#st0 (!# -n!)0 t&ats ver( c$!se t! a ,a-e seems $i-e t&at c!#$d trave$ t&r!#5& t&e s(stem ,!r 7#ite a $!n5 time .e,!re ,ina$$( .ein5 p#$$ed !#t. >?:++@ AA: Fea&. A$$ I care a.!#t0 rea$$(0 is n!t i, t&e m!ne( is rea$0 its i, t&e ne<t pers!n in t&e c&ain )i$$ t&in- t&e m!ne( is rea$. I, I -n!) its n!t !.vi!#s$( I cant pass it !n. :#st ,!r t&e rec!rd I &ave ta-en care !, t&!se n!tes s! ens#rin5 n!t t! p#t t&em .ac- int! circ#$ati!n. !)ever0 as I said0 it d!esnt need t! .e per,ect and as (!# 5! a$!n5 event#a$$( (!#re 5!in5 t! &it a p!int in t&e c&ain )&ere s!me!ne savv( is 5!in5 t! ta-e t&at m!ne( !#t !, circ#$ati!n. >?:3G@ SM: !) did (!# disc!ver t&at t&e( )ere c!#nter,eit0 AndreasC >?:3E@ AA: I &it t&at p!int in c&ain )&ere s!me!ne savv( ,i5#red !#t )&at t&e( )ere and t!!- t&em !#t !, circ#$ati!n. Hn,!rt#nate$(0 ,!r m( s!cia$ em.arrassment0 t&at )as at a .ar )&en I tried t! .#( a drin- )it& a B12 and t&en 5!t c&ased !#t !, t&e .ar .( t&e .artender !nce &e rea$iIed0 a ,e) min#tes $ater0 t&at it )as c!#nter,eit. In ,act0 &ad it n!t 5!tten )et0 t&e .i$$ &ad passed t&e ,irst inspecti!n .( t&e .artender s! it pr!.a.$( )!#$d &ave 5!ne a .it ,#rt&er in t&e c&ain. >*:2*@ SM: Li-e Adam said0 it rea$$( d!esnt matter )&et&er t&e m!ne( is rea$ !r )&et&er its m!n!p!$( m!ne(0 as $!n5 as pe!p$e .e$ieve in it0 ri5&tC ;iat m!ne( is paper m!ne(. Its m!ne( .eca#se its .een decreed t&at its m!ne(. It d!esnt &ave a s!%ca$$ed intrinsic va$#e $i-e pe!p$e c$aim )it& 5!$d and si$ver and0 per&aps0 Bitc!in. It 6#st matters t&at pe!p$e &ave ,ait& and its a mass de$#si!n0 in a )a(0 )&ere ever(.!d( .e$ieves t&at t&is m!ne( is va$#a.$e. >*:31@ AA: Fep. C!rrect. E<act$(0 .#t0 !, c!#rse0 t&at .ec!mes a .it pr!.$ematic )&en (!#re &!$din5 t)ent( ,ive ,a-e .i$$s and (!#re entire B*22 transacti!n &as .een d!ne )it& c!#nter,eit m!ne(. At t&at p!int0 I sa( t&e mar5ina$ tr#st &as c!$$apsed 7#ite dramatica$$(. >*:*2@

ABL: Andreas0 i, t&is &ad &appened and it )as !n a credit card0 t&en (!# )!#$d .e a.$e t! ca$$ #p (!#r .an- and sa(0 J e(0 t&is )as a ,ra#d#$ent transacti!n. T&e( 5ave me ,a-e m!ne(. T&eres a pr!.$em &ere.K 9it& c!#nter,eit .i$$s0 )it& c!#nter,eit cas&0 is t&ere an( s(stem $i-e t&at in p$ace t! incentiviIe pe!p$e t#rnin5 it in0 !r is it rea$$( 6#st .etter t! -eep passin5 it and &!pin5 t&at (!#re n!t t&e 5#( )&! 5ets st#c- )it& itC >G:++@ AA: 9e$$0 t&e Secret Service and Treas#r( )&ic& are resp!nsi.$e ,!r m!ne( c!#nter,eitin5 and c#rrenc( in t&e Hnited States &ave a c!#p$e !, ver( &e$p,#$ )e. pa5es )&ere t&e( te$$ (!# a$$ a.!#t (!#r civic d#t( and )&( it is imp!rtant t! &e$p $a) en,!rcement )it& t&is0 and a $itt$e n!te at t&e .!tt!m t&at sa(s (!# )!nt act#a$$( 5et an( !, (!#r m!ne( .ac-. !)ever0 t&e( d! ma-e it c$ear t&at in !rder t! e<ec#te t&is assistance t! 5!vernment0 (!# &ave t! pr!vide (!#r name and identi,icati!n mar-0 eac& n!te individ#a$$( )it& (!#r name0 date !, .irt& etc and s!0 !, c!#rse0 m( civic d#t( terminated ri5&t t&ere )it& an immediate ca$$ t! m( att!rne( )it& a ver( simp$e 7#esti!n. '! I &ave an( !.$i5ati!n0 )&ats!ever0 t! d! s!met&in5C T&e ans)er )as n! at )&ic& p!int I decided t&at )as t&e end !, m( inv!$vement )it& 5!vernment and $a) !n t&is partic#$ar t!pic. N!)0 i, (!#re )!nderin5 )&( Im n!t interested in ta-in5 !#t a c!#nter,eiter ,r!m circ#$ati!n0 even t&!#5& I pr!.a.$( c!#$d &ave assisted0 its ver( simp$e. I d!nt )ant m( name !n a $ist. I d!nt tr#st 5!vernment n!t t! 5! !n a p&is&in5 e<pediti!n. F!# .r!-e t&e r#$e !, $a)C You pa( ,!r it. >L:+1@ SM: Fea&0 t&an- (!# ,!r te$$in5 #s t&at t&is pers!n 5ave (!# c!#nter,eit m!ne(. N!)0 )ere 5!in5 t! 5! a,ter (!# #nti$ (!# .... s&i,t t&e .$ame !nt! t&em. >L:1+@ AA: Fea&0 prett( m#c&. An()a(0 s! I -ept t&e m!ne( and t#rned it int! a par$!r 5ame ,!r m( meet#ps and artic$es and I &!pe t! ma-e s$i5&t$( m!re t&an I )as .asica$$( scammed !#t !, t&r!#5& t&is pr!cess. It )as a ver( interestin5 $earnin5 e<perience. >L:33@ ABL: S!0 (!#r investment in c!#nter,eit ,#nds is rea$$( pa(in5 !,,C >L:3G@ AA: "( investment in .ein5 a d#pe is0 a.s!$#te$(0 pa(in5 !,,. >L:?1@ SM: Fea&0 inv!$#ntar( t(pe !, investment. >L:?*@ ABL: Andreas0 )&at are (!# d!in5 di,,erent$( n!) in (!#r $!ca$ .itc!ins transacti!ns t&at (!# )erent d!in5 .e,!re t&isC I mean0 &ave (!# ta-en an( acti!ns !r c&an5es t! prevent s!met&in5 $i-e t&is ,r!m &appenin5 in t&e ,#t#reC >L:**@ AA: A.s!$#te$(. Part !, t&at is -ind !, 5enera$ !perati!n !, sec#rit( and part !, t&at is speci,ic t! c!#nter,eitin5. ;irst !, a$$0 I s&!#$d sa( t&at )&en dea$in5 )it& cas& and d!in5 transacti!ns in $!ca$ .itc!ins0 especia$$( i, (!#re d!in5 m!re t&an a ,e) &#ndred d!$$ars0 (!# need t! ta-e steps ,!r !perati!na$ sec#rit(. I, (!#re .rin5in5 t&e cas&0 (!#re a tar5et. I, (!#re )a$-in5 a)a( ,r!m t&e transacti!n )it& cas& and t&e !t&er pers!n -n!)s it0 (!#re a tar5et. I, (!# act#a$$( )ant t! ma-e it t! (!#r car )it&!#t 5ettin5 m#55ed0 (!# need t! .e care,#$0 s! t&ere are s!me preca#ti!ns !ne needs t! ta-e. N!)0 I )as ta-in5 t&!se .#t n!t necessari$( t&e c!#nter,eitin5 !ne0s and I tried !#t a .#nc& !, pr!d#cts inc$#din5 pens ,!r mar-in5 t&e .i$$s0 H4 $i5&ts0 and vari!#s !t&er t&in5s. I a$s! ed#cated m(se$, !n a$$ !, t&e #ni7#e c&aracteristics !, a s!%ca$$ed rea$ d!$$ar .i$$ s! t&at I c!#$d .etter identi,( t&em in t&e ,#t#re. N!)0 !ne imp!rtant )arnin5 is t&at n!ne !, t&ese detecti!n mec&anisms are ,!!$pr!!, and t&e( a$$ $!!- ,!r di,,erent t(pes !, c!#nter,eitin5. ;!r e<amp$e0 t&e $itt$e ma5ic pens (!# see t&at pe!p$e )rite !n t&e .i$$s and t&e( c&an5e c!$!r )&at t&!se are d!in5 is t&e( &ave a

c&emica$ s#.stance t&at reacts )it& starc&. N!)0 .eca#se d!$$ar .i$$s are made !, c!tt!n and n!t paper0 essentia$$( t&e(re t&e same as .$#e 6eans. Dea$$(0 its t&e same -ind !, ,a.ric. T&e( d!nt &ave an( starc& in t&em s! t&e( d!nt 5et t&at reacti!n )&ereas0 i, m!ne( is printed !n paper0 it d!es. !)ever0 its ver( eas( t! ,i< t&at. B$eac& a !ne d!$$ar .i$$0 print a &#ndred d!$$ar .i$$ ,ace !n it and (!#ve 5!t paper t&at n! $!n5er reacts. N!t ,!!$pr!!,0 ri5&tC H40 !n t&e !t&er &and0 can revea$ c!$!r ,!r di,,erent t(pe !, a .i$$ and in a di,,erent $!cati!n. ;!r e<amp$e0 i, (!# .$eac& a B* and (!# ma-e it int! a B120 its 5!in5 t! $!!- )eird .eca#se t&e $ine )i$$ 5$!) t&e )r!n5 c!$!r and )i$$ .e in t&e )r!n5 p$ace. A$$ !, t&ese mec&anisms are #se,#$0 .#t at t&e same time0 (!# &ave t! -ind !, app$( a$$ !, t&em and .e smart. I did an!t&er transacti!n since and ver( care,#$$( )ent t&r!#5& ever( sin5$e .i$$0 sat d!)n at a ta.$e and did it ri5&t. >E:?E@ SM: 9ere (!# carr(in5 ar!#nd a H4 $i5&t in (!#r .ac- p!c-etC I mean0 &!) did (!# d! t&atC >E:*3@ AA: I 5!t a $itt$e c!m.inati!n pen and H4 $i5&t. It &as a H4 $i5&t in t&e cap !, t&e pen0 .#t I a$s! &ad a )&!$e $itt$e set#p ,!r d!in5 it in a m!re s!p&isticated manner. P$#s0 6#st ,!r entertainment0 )&at I d! is )&i$e Im c&ec-in5 a$$ t&e .i$$s0 I 5ive t&e !t&er pers!n t&e $itt$e par$!r 5ames and t&e( can ,i5#re !#t i, t&e( can sp!t ,a-es. It -eeps t&em !cc#pied. One !t&er imp!rtant t&in5 I d!: ,r!m t&at m!ment !n0 )&en I d! $!ca$ .itc!ins transacti!ns0 as (!# appr!ac& me0 (!#$$ t&in- Im $!!-in5 at m( p&!ne and readin5 s!met&in5. Im n!t. Im ,i$min5 (!#. >+2:11@ ABL: A&0 identit(. >+2:1?@ AA: A.s!$#te$(. I )i$$ &appi$( de$ete t&!se vide!s !nce a transacti!n &as 5!ne a$!n50 .#t ,!r m( !)n pr!tecti!n0 I )i$$ -eep t&em in case t&ere is an attempt t! d! c!#nter,eitin5. >+2:33@ ABL: 9e$$0 rea$$(0 I t&in- )&at it 5!es t! s&!)0 in (!#r e<perience0 certain$( &ere0 is t&at in t&ese $ar5er mar-etp$aces0 and San ;rancisc! is !ne !, t&e $ar5er !nes ,!r Bitc!in at t&is p!int0 in additi!n t! t&e pe!p$e )&! are tr#e .e$ievers &ere0 (!# a$s! &ave pe!p$e )&! are crimina$s0 rec!5niIe t&e !pp!rt#nit( &ere and in m#c& t&e same )a(0 (!# -n!)0 i, $i-e (!# &ave s!me s!rt !, a $e5a$ transacti!n t&ats ,!r cas&. In 5enera$0 )it& cas& transacti!ns its ver(0 ver( di,,ic#$t t! &ave s!met&in5 t! rep!rt. F!# -n!)0 in t&is case Andreas0 (!# )ere $e,t )it& a n! )in s!$#ti!n &ere. F!# c!#$d &ave passed !n t&e .i$$s and &!ped t! ac&ieve t&e va$#e ,r!m t&em !r (!# c!#$d &ave t#rned t&em in and 5!t n! va$#e ,r!m t&em .#t eit&er s!$#ti!n is a .ad s!$#ti!n ,r!m a $!t !, perspectives. >++:+2@ AA: 9e$$ $ets .e c$ear. T&e !ne s!$#ti!n t&at rea$$( isnt avai$a.$e ,!r (!# is t! pass t&em !n. T&at is a ,e$!n(. I, (!# -n!)in5$( pass !n a .i$$ t&at (!# -n!) is ,a-e0 t&ats rea$$( .ad ne)s. >++:+E@ ABL: Di5&t. >++:12@ AA: I d!nt see an( scenari! )&ere t&ats a s!$#ti!n .#t (!#re a.s!$#te$( ri5&t. F!# end #p )it& n! rec!#rse and a nice $ess!n0 I 5#ess. >++:1G@ ABL: 9e$$0 t&an-s ,!r s&arin5 t&at e<perience )it& #s0 Andreas. T&ats rea$$( interestin5 and a5ain0 (!# -n!)0 it 6#st s&!)s t&at t&is is 5r!)in5 #p and ever(.!d( needs t! -ind !, #p t&eir 5ame )&en it c!mes t! sec#rit( .eca#se apparent$(0 its 5!in5 t! .e an iss#e. >++:3G@

AA: F!#re ver( )e$c!me0 Adam. In rec!5niti!n !, t&is amaIin5 s&!)0 (!# )i$$ .e receivin5 a B*22 d!nati!n in cas& in an enve$!pe. >++:?3@ ABL: 9!!&!!. >++:??@ SM: :#st d!nt 5et it )et. >++:?G@ (La#5&ter) ABL: Fea&0 6#st d!nt 5et it )et. >++:?/@ SM: :#st d!nt 5et it )et. >++:?E@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ANNOUNCEMENT: F!#re $istenin5 t! Lets Ta$- Bitc!in0 t&e premier a#di!cast pr!vidin5 ne)s and insi5&ts t&at c!ver t&e rapid$( ev!$vin5 )!r$d !, di5ita$ m!ne(. O#r t)ice%)ee-$( s&!)s inc$#de ana$(sis !, $ate .rea-in5 ne)s0 #pdates !n -e( tec&nica$0 .#siness0 and re5#$at!r( iss#es0 and in%dept& intervie)s )it& t&e -e( pe!p$e drivin5 t&e ne) di5ita$ ec!n!m(. Lets Ta$- Bitc!in !,,ers sp!ns!rs an attractive )a( t! reac& a tar5eted and savv( a#dience. ;!r m!re in,!rmati!n0 emai$ sp!ns!rsN$etsta$-.itc!in.c!m. >+1:3?@ ADVERT: "!re t&an 3220222 #sers and c!#ntin5 tr#st B$!c-c&ain.in,!. Its a Bitc!in )a$$et service0 and a )ea$t& !, Bitc!in in,!rmati!n0 and is c!mp$ete$( ,ree t! #se. 9it& a B$!c-c&ain.in,! )a$$et0 (!#$$ 5et t&e c!nvenience !, a )e. )a$$et and t&e sec#rit( !, a des-t!p c$ient. B$!c-c&ain.in,! is a$s! a .$!c- e<p$!rer. F!# can #se it t! see Bitc!in transacti!ns in rea$% time0 c&ec- t&e .a$ance !, an( Bitc!in address and vie) man( &and( Bitc!in c&arts0 a$$ ,!r ,ree. See )&at t&e( &ave t! !,,er t!da( at B$!c-c&ain.in,!. >+3:2/@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ABL: In !#r c!ntin#in5 series !, c!n,erence intervie)s ,r!m t&e cr(pt!c#rrenc( c!n,erence in At$anta0 8e!r5ia0 t!da( )e are 6!ined .( Peter S#rda0 )&! is t&e primar( at t&e Ec!n!mics !, Bitc!in .$!5. I act#a$$( s&!#$d as- (!# t&is. 9&at ,!rma$ tit$e % !r &!) )!#$d (!# $i-e t! .e intr!d#cedC I -n!) s!me !, (!#r pr!6ects .#t Im s#re (!# &ave !t&er pr!6ects... >+3:1/@ S: 9e$$ I... t&is is a di,,ic#$t t!pic .eca#se I &avent rea$$(... Ive &ad man( 6!. tit$es. "!st !, m( $i,e0 Ive .een d!in5 pr!5ramin5 and s(stem admin )!r- .#t I &ave a ,!rma$ ed#cati!n in .#siness administrati!n. On t&e !t&er &and0 Ive a$s! s!me $a) and ec!n!mics in t&at and n!) pe!p$e t&in- t&at Im a Bitc!in ec!n!mist0 s! I decided t! p$a( a$!n5. 9&( n!tC >+3:*1@ ABL: ;air en!#5&. T&at is )&at !ne !, (!#r .#siness cards sa(s. It sa(s OBitc!in Ec!n!mist.O F!# )rite a $!t a.!#t t&e A#strian sc&!!$ and (!#ve .een )ritin5 a $!t a.!#t Bitc!in0 s! ,!r !#r $isteners0 )&( is Bitc!in s!met&in5 t&at is desira.$e ,r!m an A#strian p!int !, vie) at a ver( &i5& $eve$C >+?:2/@

S: T&is act#a$$( depends !n )&ic& !, t&e .ranc&es is c!ncerned0 .#t t&e main .ranc&0 I )i$$ act#a$$( &ave t&at in m( ta$-0 t&e main .ranc& .asica$$( ar5#es t&at t&e idea$ m!ne( is m!ne( t&at &as an ine$astic s#pp$( !, .ase m!ne( and t&at t&ere is ,#$$ reserve .an-in5. 9it& Bitc!in0 Bitc!in is a .ase0 )e$$ % )anna.e m!ne(0 )it& ine$astic s#pp$( and it tac-$es t&e ,racti!na$ reserve .an-in5 in an #ne<pected manner0 and t&at is0 t&at t&ere is ver( $itt$e demand ,!r dep!sit .an-in50 )&ats ca$$ed. !) t&e A#strians depict t&e ,racti!na$ reserve .an-in50 t&at its a c!m.inati!n !, mediatin5 $!ans and dep!sit .an-in5. 9&en t&e dep!sit .an-in5 5!es a)a(0 t&eres tec&nica$$( a ,#$$ reserve .an-in5 .eca#se t&eres n!.... t&e m!ne( s#pp$( is e7#a$ t! t&e m!netar( .ase. T&is is an #n#s#a$ t&in5 t&at never e<isted .e,!re .#t I t&inLa)rence 9&ite0 &es !ne !, t&e A#strians0 &e made an ar5#ment t&at e<p$ains t&at t&is is an empirica$ iss#e. e mi5&t &ave t&!#5&t t&at0 &(p!t&etica$$(0 s!met&in5 $i-e t&at is p!ssi.$e. >+*:1?@ ABL: T&eres de,inite$( a divide )it&in t&e $i.ertarian c!mm#nit( and s!rt !,0 as (!#ve started 5ettin5 int!0 in t&e mindset. F!# -n!) and &!) pe!p$e $!!- at $i.ertarianism vers#s ... and &!) t&at in,$#ences0 &!) t&e(re $!!-in5 at Bitc!in. T&e stance t&at I ta-e a $!t !, t&e time0 and I t&in- a $!t !, pe!p$e )&! I -n!) ta-e0 is t&at its ver( .ad ,!r t&e per,ect t! .e t&e enem( !, t&e 5!!d. I, (!# sit ar!#nd and )ait ,!r a s!$#ti!n t&at s!$ves ever( sin5$e pr!.$em0 (!#re 5!in5 t! .e )aitin5 a $!n5 time and t&at t&ere are partia$ s!$#ti!ns !#t t&ere. Is it ide!$!5ica$ p#rit( t&at &as t! d! )it& itC >+*:*+@ S: T&is is act#a$$( a ver( interestin5 p!int .eca#se Bitc!in .asica$$( tac-$es t&is pr!.$em ,r!m a s$i5&t$( di,,erent an5$e t&at &as e<isted s! ,ar0 at $east in t&e minds !, ec!n!mists. It mi5&t n!t .e per,ect0 $i-e )e -n!) t&at t&ere are a$$ -inds !, pr!.$ems )it& it0 .#t s!me !, t&e pr!.$ems t&at )ere t&!#5&t t! .e eit&er #ns!$va.$e !r di,,ic#$t t! s!$ve0 it s!$ves in a ver( eas( )a(. T&e 7#esti!n is act#a$$( )&at t&e c!rrect c!m.inati!n !, t&e ,eat#res !, idea$ m!ne( is0 .eca#se )e pr!.a.$( cant &ave a per,ect m!ne( t&at d!es ever(t&in5 in an idea$ )a(0 .#t t&ere are t)! 7#esti!ns. 9&ic& !, t&e ,eat#re sets is m!re desira.$e t&an t&e !t&ersC T&e sec!nd !ne is )&et&er t&at act#a$$( )i$$ )!r- in rea$it( and s#stain itse$,. >+G:?3@ ABL: '! (!# t&in- t&at t&e c!nversati!n is c&an5in5 as )e m!ve ,!r)ard in timeC I mean0 is t&e ,act t&at Bitc!in c!ntin#es t! e<ist s!rt !, dispr!vin5 a $!t !, t&e s-epticismC >+G:*+@ S: F!#re act#a$$( ta-in5 st#,, ri5&t !#t !, m( $ect#re. Basica$$(0 m( impressi!n is t&at its -ind !, $i-e )&at is ascri.ed t! 8and&i $i-e ,irst t&e( i5n!re (!#0 t&en t&e( $a#5& at (!#0 t&en t&e( ,i5&t (!# and t&en (!# )in. 9it& Bitc!in0 its -ind !, $i-e ,irst its .ein5 i5n!red and $a#5&ed at0 t&en ec!n!mists simp$( sa( 7#ic-$( t&at it cant )!r- !r it )!nt )!r- .#t its sti$$ t&ere. T&en0 t&e ne<t step is t&e( ma-e reas!ns t! e<p$ain )&( it cann!t )!r-0 .#t )&at &appens ne<t0 I d!nt -n!) .eca#se m!st !, t&e ec!n!mists )&!se !pini!n act#a$$( Im interested in0 t&e( &avent rea$$( made >a@ str!n5 e<p$anati!n !r str!n5 p!siti!n re5ardin5 t&is. >+L:3E@> ABL: Its .een ver( interestin5 )atc&in5 t&em0 I t&in-. F!# -n!)0 t&ere are de,inite$( s!me ver( pr!minent m!netar( sc&!$ars )&! (!# )!#$d t&in- )!#$d &ave made statements0 )!#$d &ave an !pini!n a.!#t Bitc!in !r cr(pt!c#rrencies0 .#t n!t s! m#c&0 s!metimes. >+L:*1@ S: Fea&0 act#a$$( .eca#se Bitc!in is di,,ic#$t t! #nderstand i, (!# d!nt &ave e<perience )it& IT. I can #nderstand &!) an ec!n!mist mi5&t .e c!n,#sed .#t I act#a$$( )!#$d appreciate m!re i, I va$#e t&e !pini!n m!re0 !r t&e p!siti!n0 i, s!me!ne sa(s JI d!nt #nderstand it s! I cant rea$$( e<p$ain an(t&in5 a.!#t it.K 9&ereas0 -nee%6er- reacti!ns

s!met&in5 $i-e0 JIt d!esnt ,it int! s!me ,rame)!r- s! t&ats .ad.K T&ats n!t rea$$( a sc&!$ar$( appr!ac&. On t&e !t&er &and0 i, s!me!ne .#5s (!# a$$ t&e time...KSa( s!met&in5 a.!#t it0 sa( s!met&in5 a.!#t it0K (!# mi5&t n!t .e a.$e t! &and$e it and sa( s!met&in5. >+/:3?@ ABL: Ive 5!t an ec!n!mist &ere and Im rea$$( c#ri!#s. F!# -n!)0 t&ere are a $!t !, &!t t!pics )it&in t&e Bitc!in space ri5&t n!) and !ne !, t&e de.ates t&ats 5!in5 !n is t&e 7#esti!n !, )&et&er !r n!t t&e .$!c- siIe0 t&e ma<im#m .$!c- siIe needs t! c&an5e !r )&et&er it s&!#$d sta( t&e same. T&is impacts t&e t!ta$ transacti!n v!$#me t&at )ere a.$e t!... (!# -n!)0 .eca#se i, a .$!c- is a certain siIe and eac& transacti!n ta-es a certain am!#nt !, space0 t&en (!# can !n$( sca$e #p s! m#c&0 #n$ess (!#re increasin5 t&e siIe !, t&e .$!c-. T&ere is s!me c!mp$e<it( t! t&is. 9&ats (!#r ta-e !n t&e iss#eC >+E:2G@ S: I #nderstand t&at t&is is a ... in a $!t !, t&ese di,,ic#$t t!pics0 )&en I ,irst see it0 I t&in- its c$ear0 its $i-e t&is .#t t&en I t&in- a.!#t it m!re and its n!t s! strai5&t ,!r)ard. I t&in- t&at t&e c!re dev team0 t&e( ta-e a rat&er c!nservative appr!ac& and I t&in-0 )it& respect t! Bitc!in0 t&is is pr!.a.$( t&e .etter !pti!n. I, (!# )ant t! e<periment )it& s!me c&an5es $i-e t&e .$!c- siIe0 ma(.e (!# can create a ,!r- t&at is $i-e % &as di,,erent ,eat#res and (!# tr( t! mer5e t&e transacti!ns int! t&at and see &!) it .e&aves. 9&at )as &is nameC Peter0 I t&in-0 t&e Be$5ian deve$!per. In t&e c!n,erence0 t)! (ears a5!0 &e said t&at t&e( d!nt )ant t! ma-e an( c&an5es .eca#se a $!t !, pe!p$e &ave a $!t !, m!ne( in it and i, s!met&in5 .rea-s0 t&en t&e(re t&e p!!r 5#(s )&! 5et t&e ,$a-. A$s!0 )&at )e need t! rea$ise is t&at a $!t !, t&ese t&in5s cant .e rea$$( ,i5#red !#t t&e!retica$$( in advance0 and t&e( need t! .e simp$( tested !#t. 9e need t! see &!) it .e&aves in rea$it(0 .eca#se its nice t! ma-e t&e!retica$ pr!6ecti!ns and m!de$s and s! !n0 .#t t&ere is a $imit t! t&at )e cant predict ever(t&in5. ;r!m t&is p!int !, vie)0 Im a s#pp!rter !, a$$ c&ance t! e<periment )it& ,eat#res t&at ma-e t&em di,,erent ,r!m Bitc!in and t! tr( t&in5s t&at )e are )!rried t! p#t int! Bitc!in at t&is m!ment. "a(.e )e can inte5rate it $ater. >12:?3@ ABL: Cr(pt!c#rrenc( vers#s Bitc!in. 9&at d! (!# t&in- is t&e inn!vati!n and )&at d! (!# t&in-0 (!# -n!)0 in t)ent( (ears ,r!m n!) )ere 5!in5 t! .e ta$-in5 a.!#tC Is it 5!in5 t! .e cr(pt!c#rrenc( !r is it 5!in5 t! .e Bitc!inC Or s!me !t&er )!rd t&at represents cr(pt!c#rrenc(C >12:*G@ S: 9e$$0 in t&e s&!rt term0 I t&in- Bitc!in )i$$ remain t&e d!minant !ne0 .#t as time pr!5resses it )i$$ .ec!me m!re and m!re apparent )&et&er Bitc!in !r s!met&in5 e$se. At t&e m!ment0 t&e di,,erences am!n5 t&e .itc!ins are n!t s! .... ,r!m tec&nica$ p!int !, vie)0 in m( !pini!n0 are n!t si5ni,icant and in t&at case0 $i7#idit( p$a(s t&e main r!$e and Bitc!in is t&e m!st $i7#id !ne. I t&in-0 ma(.e !n$( a &and,#$ !, a$tc!ins act#a$$( d!nt pi55(.ac- !n t&e $i7#idit( !, Bitc!in .eca#se t&e( d!nt rea$$( trade a5ainst t&e HS d!$$ar even. T&e( 6#st trade ... >1+:3*@ ABL: T&e( trade a5ainst Bitc!in. >1+:3G@ S: Fes. T&is is an interestin5 t&in5 .eca#se0 !n !ne &and0 it ma-es m!re testin5 and m!re c&an5es p!ssi.$e. On t&e !t&er &and0 it s&!)s t&at Bitc!in rea$$( is an impr!vement .eca#se i, it )asnt t&e( )!#$d .e pi55(.ac-in5 !n t&e d!$$ar and n!t !n Bitc!in. >1+:**@ ABL: Can t&e( pi55(.ac- !n t&e d!$$arC Its t&at0 I mean0 its t&at transiti!n p!int. Its a di,,ic#$t p!int. >1+:*E@

S: Its p!ssi.$e0 as &(p!t&etica$$( i, % $ets pic- Litec!in .eca#se t&ats t&e ne<t !ne. I, its $i7#idit( 5r!)s and mar-ets .#i$d )&ere (!# can trade Litec!in a5ainst t&e HS d!$$ar0 E#r! and s! !n0 pe!p$e start t! accept it as a ,ina$ means !, pa(ment in t&!se sit#ati!ns )&ere t&e( n!rma$$( accept Bitc!in0 t&en (ea&0 it can s&i,t ar!#nd. 9e d!nt -n!) t&at0 its 6#st as Bitc!in 5r!)s m!re0 t&en it .ec!mes $ess and $ess $i-e$(. O, c!#rse0 t&eres t&e e<cepti!n i, t&ere are s!me catastr!p&ic tec&nica$ pr!.$ems... >11:31@ ABL: T&e escape va$ve c$a#se. >11:3?@ S: Fea&. >11:3*@ ABL: Fea&. F!# -n!)0 )&at a.!#t impr!vementsC F!# -n!)0 (!# ta$-ed a.!#t &!) t&e c!ins t&at are !#t t&ere ri5&t n!) % a$$ .#t a &and,#$ are ver( m#c& derived ,r!m and dependent !n0 ver( &eavi$(0 Bitc!in. T&ere &ave .een s!rt !,0 (!# -n!) p!-es ar!#nd0 I mean Litec!in isnt a 5!!d e<amp$e .#t Primec!in mi5&t .e. It d!es s!met&in5 t&ats meanin5,#$$( di,,erent. One !, t&e t&in5s t&at Ive .een interested in0 )it& re5ards t! a$tc!ins0 is t&e idea t&at0 .eca#se t&e penetrati!n !, Bitc!in is s! sma$$ re$ative$( spea-in5 t! t&e )!r$d p!p#$ati!n0 t&eres $!ts !, r!!m ,!r a$tc!ins t&at d!nt even &ave inn!vati!ns in terms !, tec&nica$s0 6#st &ave inn!vati!ns in terms !,0 (!# -n!)0 ,indin5 ne) mar-ets t! intr!d#ce t&emse$ves t!. Instead !,0 (!# -n!)0 (!# see c!ins $i-e 8!$dc!in d!in5 t&is ever( !nce in a )&i$e0 )&ere t&e($$ tr( t! intr!d#ce t&emse$ves... t&e($$ tr( t! intr!d#ce cr(pt!c#rrenc( and J&e(0 &eres 8!$dc!in its t&e ,irst !ne (!#ve ever &eard a.!#t. 9&( d!nt (!# .#( itCK I mean0 t! a certain e<tent0 i, (!# &ave a .i5 en!#5& and ins#$ar en!#5& 5r!#p0 t&at c!#$d act#a$$( )!r-0 ri5&tC >13:1E@ S: Fea&0 I act#a$$( a5ree. I made t&e ar5#ment in t&is .... I &ave a.!#t !ne and a &a$, pa5es a.!#t t&is in m( t&esis. T&is )as $!n5 .e,!re t&is de.ate .ecame p!$ariIed0 and I ma-e t&e ar5#ment t&at i, s!met&in5 )as t! !verta-e Bitc!in0 it )!#$d eit&er .e .eca#se eit&er it !verc!mes it .ased !n t&e transacti!n c!sts )&ic& are t&ese tec&nica$ impr!vements !r t&r!#5& $i7#idit(. Li7#idit( can a$s! .e impr!ved i, t&eres $i-e a specia$ nic&e t&at ma-es it m!re... t&e a$tc!ins ma-e it ,irst t&ere0 ,!r e<amp$e !r t&ere c!#$d .e a c!mpan( .ac-in5 t&em0 ,!r e<amp$e. T&ere are a $!t !, p!ssi.i$ities a.!#t &!) t&at can &appen0 .#t (es0 it can &appen. :#st as Bitc!in 5r!)s m!re and m!re $i7#id0 even t&!#5& t&ats... I )!#$dnt act#a$$( sa( t&at t&ats t&e case necessari$(.... >1?:11@ ABL: 9&( )!#$d (!# sa(... )&(C >1?:1?@ S: T&e metric t&at I #se in m( masters t&esis t&at d!esnt indicate an( decip&era.$e directi!n )&ere t&e $i7#idit( is 5r!)in5 .#t I !n$( #se a ver( simp$e metric0 s! t&at mi5&t n!t .e representative. Ot&er metrics0 $i-e t&e n#m.er !, merc&ants acceptin5 it0 t&e n#m.er !, transacti!ns and s! !n % t&ese &ave impr!ved0 s! t&ats a$s! s!met&in5 t&at (!# can interpret as $i7#idit(. 9&at I d! in m( t&esis is t&at I ana$(Ie t&e s$!pe !, t&e .id and as- !rder .!!-s !n "t8!< and t&!se0 t&r!#5& t&e data t&at I ana$(Ied0 ends in N!vem.er0 $ast (ear. I didnt rea$$( $!!- at it a,ter)!rds0 .#t its 5!in5 #p and d!)n0 s! t&eres n! c$ear pat& !, it 5r!)in5. T&ere are a $!t !,0 I )!#$d sa(0 s!,t indicat!rs t&at its 5r!)in5 .#t t&e rea$ &ard !nes0 t&e m!re mat&ematica$ !nes t&ere ... ma(.e it c&an5ed in t&e $ast (ear. I )!#$d need t! $!!- at it a5ain and ma(.e I can d! t&at )&en I &ave a .it m!re time. >1*:1*@

ABL: Fea&0 !n$( )&en (!# &ave a $itt$e m!re time. F!# 6#st re$eased (!#r masters t&esis and t&at )as ,r!m t&e 4ienna Sc&!!$ !, Ec!n!mics0 ri5&tC >1*:3+@ S: 4ienna Sc&!!$ !, Ec!n!mics and B#siness is t&e !,,icia$ tit$e. I act#a$$( )r!te it a$read( in N!vem.er0 $ast (ear .#t I didnt rea$$( p#.$iciIe it0 I 6#st created a .$!5 a.!#t t&ree )ee-s $ater and p#t it t&ere. >1*:??@ ABL: 9as d!in5 t&e researc& ,!r (!#r masters t&esis )&at -inda -ic-ed (!# int! t&e Bitc!in spaceC >1*:*2@ S: T&at )as t!5et&er act#a$$(0 .eca#se I &ad t! d! a masters t&esis and I didnt rea$$( pic- a t!pic0 .#t t&is )as ar!#nd "a( 12++0 )&ic& I d!nt need t! e<p$ain t! pe!p$e )&! are ,ami$iar )it& Bitc!in )&at &appened t&en. T&en I decided0 &e(0 &!) a.!#t I d! masters t&esis !n t&is. T&ats &!) it a$$ 5re) t!5et&er. >1G:+?@ ABL: 9in0 $!se0 !r dra)0 even i, it ,ai$ed at t&at p!int0 (!# sti$$ )!#$d &ave &ad0 (!# -n!)0 a 5!!d p!st m!rtem. >1G:+/@ S: Fea&. >1G:+E@ ABL: Ive ta$-ed )it& :e,,re( T#c-er .e,!re a.!#t t&is and I am s#per c#ri!#s ,!r (!#r t&!#5&ts. I am enam!red )it& t&e idea t&at Bitc!in !r an!t&er cr(pt!c#rrenc( c!#$d eit&er .e direct$( #sed as a nati!na$ c#rrenc( !r c!#$d .e #sed as t&e transparent .ac-in5 !, a ,iat c#rrenc(0 t&at is essentia$$( .ac-ed .( it and t&at )!#$d0 (!# -n!)0 instead !, &avin5 a seria$ n#m.er !n it0 )!#$d &ave a Bitc!in address !n it and (!#d $!!- at t&e Bitc!in address and it )!#$d s&!)0 (!# -n!)0 t&e t!ta$ t&ats !n it a5ainst &!) man( its iss#ed ,!r. I mean0 pe!p$e t&in- t&at t&ats rea$$( ,ar%,etc&ed0 .#t in t&e )!r$d t&at )e $ive in t!da(0 I 6#st -ind !,0 Im )!nderin5 % d! (!# t&in- t&at t&ats s!met&in5 t&at c!#$d )!r-C F!# -n!)0 even )it& t&e s(stem )e &ave n!)C >1L:23@ S: I t&in- t&is is a &i5&$( &(p!t&etica$ iss#e. >1L:2*@ ABL: i5&$( &(p!t&etica$. >1L:2L@ S: I s#pp!se its p!ssi.$e .#t t&ere are a $!t !, iss#es &ere0 $i-e it )!#$d need t! .e c$ari,ied &!) !#r transacti!ns are pr!cessed0 it )!#$d need t! pr!vide s!me )a( !, m!vin5 Bitc!in #sers a)a( ,r!m Bitc!in0 n!t rep$acin5 ,iat #sers )it& a ne) ,iat Bitc!in .#t m!vin5 Bitc!in #sers0 .eca#se i, (!# 6#st rep$ace t&e reserves !, t&e centra$ .an- and (!# c!ntin#e t! &ave a m!netar( p!$ic( !n t!p !, t&at and t&e .an-in5 s(stem t&at )e &ave n!)0 t&at mi5&t ma-e it m!re $i-e$( t&at t&e ... ,isca$$(0 t&e state d!esnt 5! .an-r#pt0 .#t it d!esnt impr!ve t&e ,inancia$ s(stem t&at m#c&. >1L:?/@ ABL: Di5&t. >1L:?E@ S: Its certain$( p!ssi.$e and a$s! )&at c!#$d &appen is t&at Bitc!in 5ets inc$#ded int! t&e specia$ dra)in5 ri5&ts mi<. >1L:*E@ ABL: Iss#ed .( t&e I";. >1/:22@ S: T&at t&is )i$$ .e #sed as .ac-in5 ,!r ,iat c#rrencies. >1/:2*@

ABL: '! (!# t&in- t&at t&ats as 5!!d a s!$#ti!nC >1/:2L@ S: Im n!t sa(in5 t&at its a 5!!d s!$#ti!n0 .#t Im 6#st sa(in5 t&at t&is mi5&t .e s!met&in5 t&at t&e p!$iticians mi5&t c!nsider i, t&e( are ,aced )it& s!me .i55er pr!.$ems $i-e t&e c!$$apse !, t&e ,iat c#rrencies0 ,!r e<amp$e. >1/:13@ ABL: T&at imp$ies t&at Bitc!in c!#$d $ive a$!n5side !, c#rrencies in a )a( )&ere its .ein5 paid attenti!n t! .( t&e I"; and (et0 a$$ t&ese !t&er c#rrencies sti$$ e<ist. '! (!# t&in- t&at t&e( are c!mpati.$e !ver t&e medi#m t! $!n5 termC >1/:3E@ S: 9e$$0 c!mpati.$eC I )!#$d rat&er sa( t&at t&e state &as a $!t !, instr#ments a.!#t &!) t! ma-e it s#re t&at its c#rrenc( is sti$$ #sed !r t&at it can c!ntin#e e<ec#t>in5@ m!netar( p!$ic(. Im n!t even s#re even i, ever(.!d(s #sin5 Bitc!in i, t&at0 necessari$(0 means t&e deat& !, ,iat. T&e( c!#$d simp$( re7#ire t&at ta<es are .ein5 ca$c#$ated0 !r are .ein5 paid in ,iat and t&at (!# need t! d! (!#r acc!#ntin5 in t&e #nits !, t&e ,iat c#rrenc(. T&at c!#$d0 &(p!t&etica$$(0 sti$$ -eep ,iat m!ne( a$ive. 9e d!nt rea$$( -n!) e<act$( &!) t&is )!r-s .eca#se )e )ere never ,aced )it& s#c& a sit#ati!n. T&e m!st )eve .een ,aced is0 )&en t&e )&!$e s(stem c!$$apses and pe!p$e s)itc& t! 5!$d0 even t&!#5& t&at d!esnt &appen t&at !,ten0 t&at )as ... n!)ada(s0 t&at )as m!re in t&e past. N!)ada(s0 i, a ,iat s(stem c!$$apses0 pe!p$e s)itc& t! d!$$ars !r E#r!s. >1E:3E@ ABL: S)itc& t! ,iat. >1E:3E@ S: A $i7#id ,iat m!ne(. Pe!p$e d!nt s)itc& t! 5!$d0 pe!p$e0 s! ,ar0 &avent rea$$( s)itc&ed t! Bitc!in en masse. >1E:?/@ ABL: T&e pr!.$em )it& an( c!mm!dit( .ased m!ne(0 )&ere (!# act#a$$( &ave t&e m!ne( as a c!mm!dit(0 (!# -n!)0 I mean0 (!# s!$ve t&e s#pp$( pr!.$em0 .#t (!# intr!d#ce a$$ -inds !, c!sts. Bitc!in is interestin50 cr(pt!c#rrenc( is interestin5 in t&at0 it s!rt !, d!es .!t&. It ,i<es t&e s#pp$( pr!.$em )it&!#t inc#rrin5 t&e c!sts !, p&(sica$it( in e<istin5 in rea$ $i,e. I d!nt -n!)0 t&eres n!t a 7#esti!n t&ere. >32:+?@ S: ;r!m ec!n!mic p!int !, vie)0 )&at matters is &!) (!# ac&ieve e$asticit( !, t&e .ase m!ne(. Is t&at t&e pr!d#cti!n c!sts are r!#5&$( e7#a$ t! t&e mar-et price. T&at d!es n!t necessari$( re7#ire a partic#$ar )a( !, &!) t! ac&ievin5 t&e c!sts. 9it& Bitc!in0 its 6#st e$ectricit(0 (ea&C 9it& 5!$d0 its di,,erent: its t&e c!st !, p&(sica$$( minin5 and transp!rtin5 t&e 5!$d t! .an- !r t! a mint. T&ere are a$s! !t&er appr!ac&es0 ,!r e<amp$e !ne t&at I ,ind interestin5 is t&e Opr!!,%!,%.#rn.O T&is )as deve$!ped .( Ian Ste)art0 I t&in- is &is name. T&ats .asica$$( a )a( !, destr!(in5 !ne cr(pt!c#rrenc( and #sin5 t&at as a c!st ,!r creatin5 a ne) cr(pt!c#rrenc(. T&en0 (!# d!nt need t! respend t&e ener5(0 (!# can 6#st spend an e<istin5 cr(pt!c#rrenc( as an inp#t c!st. >3+:++@ ABL: Interestin5. 9e are in t&e midd$e !, a -ind !, e<p$!si!n in terms !, minin5P&as&in5 p!)er and .... >3+:+/@ S: O#t !, t&e &as&in5 pr!6ects t&at I eit&er tried m(se$, !r invested in0 I t&in- !#t !, ,!#r0 !n$( !ne is pr!,ita.$e and t&ree .... I eit&er $!st m!ne( !r )i$$ pr!.a.$( never rec!#p t&e c!sts. >3+:31@

ABL: T&ese are !nes t&at are c#rrent$( $ive pr!6ectsC >3+:3?@ S: S!me !, t&em are. S!me !, t&em I $i7#idated. >3+:3L@ ABL: '! (!# t&in- t&at t&eres a space in minin5 ,!r an(!ne )&!s n!t a.$e t! invest ,ive ,i5#res0 (!# -n!)0 in a $i-e m!nt&$( .asisC >3+:?*@ S: I )!#$dnt sa( its rea$$( investment. Its m!re a.!#t timin5. I d!nt t&in- (!# rea$$( need t! invest m#c&. Even i, (!# invest m#c&0 i, (!#r timin5 is !,,0 (!#$$ $!se m!re m!ne(. I t&in- t&is is n!) a &i5&$( c!mpetitive and &i5&$( ris-( endeav!r. I cant rea$$( sa( )&! )i$$ .e pr!,ita.$e .#t I t&in- its pr!.a.$( mis$eadin5 t! c!ncentrate !n t&e am!#nt !, m!ne( invested. I, (!#re a pr!d#cer !, minin5 &ard)are0 (ea&0 t&at )a( (!# pr!.a.$( can earn m!ne( .eca#se ever(.!d( )ants t! .#( t&em. I, (!# are t&e miner0 t&en Im a $itt$e .it m!re s-eptica$. >31:+E@ ABL: Its )&! (!# -n!) rat&er t&an &!) m#c& (!# can spend0 ri5&tC I, its a.!#t timin50 t&at matters a $!t. A$s! pr!<imit( t&en0 a$s! matters a $!t t!! .eca#se i, (!#re in0 (!# -n!)0 "!n5!$ia .ein5 s&ipped ,r!m C&ina vers#s ..... T&is is a c!ntr!versia$ t!pic. "( c!ntin#a$ c!ncern &as .een t&at )e are 5!in5 t! see a ma6!r centra$iIati!n in minin5 .eca#se t&e man#,act#rin5 is centra$iIed and .eca#se0 as t&e &ard)are is inva$idated s! ,ast0 t&e !n$( pe!p$e )&! can a,,!rd t! -eep #p0 s! t! spea-0 are t&e pe!p$e )&! can a,,!rd t! ma-e c!ntin#!#s investment. T&at $eads t! ... ec!n!mies !, sca$e .asica$$( c!me int! p$a( &#5e$( )&en it c!mes t! minin5. It seems $i-e t&ats n!t rea$$( idea$ ,!r a distri.#ted net)!r-. >33:23@ S: I d!nt act#a$$( &ave a ,irm !pini!n a.!#t t&is. I #nderstand t&e pr!.$em t&at0 !n !ne &and0 )e need t! &ave e,,icienc(0 and !n t&e !t&er &and0 )e need t! &ave decentra$iIati!n and t&eres a certain $eve$ !, c!n,$ict !, t&ese t)! interests. I t&in-0 !ver time0 as )e appr!ac& % t&e man#,act#rers appr!ac& t&e c#rrent$( tec&nica$$( ,easi.$e $imits0 t&en t&e pr!d#ced minin5 &ard)are )i$$ .ec!me m!re and m!re c!mm!ditiIed and t&at )i$$ impr!ve decentra$iIati!n. N!)ada(s0 )&en its spi-in5 s! &i5& and t&e( are ma-in5 m!re and m!re e,,icient ASICs0 n!) its ver( t!#5& and t&ere c!#$d .e a temp!rar( m!re centra$iIed set#p. I d!nt t&in- t&at !ver $!n5 time t&is )i$$ $ast. "a(.e0 i, t&ere are s!me pr!.$ems )it& patents0 $i-e s!me!ne tries t! prevent c!mpetit!rs ,r!m iss#in5 c!mpetin5 ASICs ,!r patents0 ma(.e t&at mi5&t s$!) d!)n decentra$iIati!n .#t !ver $!n5 term0 Im n!t )!rried a.!#t t&at. "a(.e Im )r!n50 ma(.e Im )r!n5. >3?:++@ ABL: N!0 its ,ine. I mean its0 a5ain0 t&is is a c!ntr!versia$ t!pic. 9&en I ta$-ed t!0 (!# -n!)0 )&en )e ta$-ed t! t&e deve$!pers a.!#t t&is !n t&e c!re dev0 t&e -ind !, resp!nse )e 5et is t&at n!) d!esnt matter s! m#c& .eca#se )ere s!$vin5 t&e pr!.$em n!)0 ri5&tC 9ere 5ettin5 it d!)n t! t&e $!)est c!mm!n den!minat!r and t&en !nce )eve 5!t t&is0 (!# -n!)0 c!mm!dit(%$eve$ &ard)are t&ats s! c&eap t! ma-e ever(.!d( can &ave it0 t&en it$$ start 5!in5 int!0 (!# -n!)0 it$$ 5! int! (!#r car0 it$$ 5! int! (!#r )ater &eater0 a$$ t&is st#,,. Its a pr!.$em )&ere (!#ve 5!t t&e .e5innin50 (!#ve 5!t t&e end0 .#t in t&e midd$e t&eres t&is $i-e .i50 scar( .$an-. >3?:??@ S: I #nderstand t&is p!int .#t m( c!#nter%ar5#ment )!#$d .e0 .asica$$(0 t&at )e d!nt rea$$( -n!) )&at &appens in t&e midd$e0 (ea&C >3?:*?@ ABL: Di5&t. >3?:**@

S: 9e can .e )!rried a.!#t )&at &appens0 (ea&0 .#t )e d!nt rea$$( -n!) )&et&er it )i$$ .e 5!!d !r .ad. >3*:21@ ABL: 8iven &!) ,ast )eve m!ved0 d! (!# t&in- ri5&t n!) )ere at t&e .e5innin5 !r t&e midd$eC >3*:2G@ S: Based !n m( $#c- )it& t&e investment0 I )!#$d rat&er sa( t&at I d!nt -n!). >3*:+1@ ABL: 9e$$0 I t&in- )it& (!#r investment ma(.e t&at means t&e midd$e .eca#se t&e !pp!rt#nities )ere m#c& easier in t&e .e5innin5. F!# -n!)0 )&en t&ere )asnt s! m#c& c!mpetiti!n and n!)0 I mean $i-e0 (!# -n!)0 t&e e<p$!si!n !, t&e &as& rate &as .een 7#ite impressive. >3*:1G@ S: I d!nt -n!) i, (!# n!ticed0 .#t t&ere )as an er!tic n!ve$ !r n!ve$ p#.$is&ed a.!#t Bitc!in. I 6#st .!#5&t it !n m( ,$i5&t &ere. T&is is s!me ,#nn( st#,, $i-e0 its a.!#t a 5#( )&! !rdered minin5 e7#ipment )it& "!s7#it! La.s and it arrived $i-e0 ,ive (ears $ate !r s!met&in5. Pe!p$e are a$read( ma-in5 ,#n !, t&is0 .asica$$(. >3*:*1@ ABL: T&at is !ne t&in5 t&at )e rea$$( &avent seen t!! m#c&0 (et0 and I ,ee$ a $itt$e .it s#rprised0 I 5!t t! .e &!nest )it& (!#. F!# -n!)0 t&ere isnt a $!t !, ,icti!n .ein5 )ritten a.!#t an( !, t&ese tec&n!$!5ies. Li-e0 t&eres sti$$ ,icti!n0 t&eres sti$$ (!# -n!)0 c(.erp#n,icti!n .ein5 )ritten and a$$ t&ese t&in5s t&at are m!re in t&e ,#t#re .#t n!.!d( is rea$$( )ritin5 a.!#t ... (!# -n!)0 I mean I ta$- t! )riters s!me times and $i-e &e(... t&e(re $i-e JI )ant t! ta$- a.!#t Bitc!in .eca#se I need s!me!ne t! -i$$ s!me!ne and I )anted t! pa( ,!r it in t&at.K I )as $i-e0 JF!# can #se Bitc!in ,!r s! m#c& m!re t&an t&at=K I mean0 &!) $!n5 d! (!# t&in- it ta-es c#$t#re t! catc& #p t! a s&i,t $i-e t&isC >3G:13@ S: Im n!t rea$$( a specia$ist int! t&is .#t I t&in- t&at t&e n!ve$ t&at I menti!ned ear$ier0 t&ats a si5n !, a .e5innin5. Pe!p$e )i$$ start t! #se t&is and )e rea$$(0 event#a$$(0 )!nt n!tice t&at t&ere is an(t&in5 specia$ a.!#t it .eca#se Bitc!in )i$$ .e c!nsidered n!rma$. >3G:?1@ ABL: N!rma$. N!rma$ is a ver( interestin5 )!rd. 9e 6#st sa) t&e Si$- D!ad pr!.a.$( made its demise and t&is came -ind !, s&!rt$( a,ter !ne !, its m!re !#t in t&e !pen c!mpetit!rs. Pe!p$e are pa(in5 a $!t !, attenti!n t! t&is .#t I t&in- its a$m!st ,!r t&e )r!n5 t&in5. I t&int&at i, t&is &ad &appened0 sa( si< m!nt&s a5! !r a (ear a5!0 t&en )e )!#$d &ave seen a prett( ma6!r impact in t&e mar-ets .#t I mean0 !#tside !, t&e initia$ panic0 n!t t!! m#c& &appened. I mean0 d! (!# t&in- t&at t&is s&!)s t&at t&ere is s!me r!.#stness c!min5 int! t&e s(stemC I mean0 t&e same t&in5 c!#$d &ave .een said a.!#t "t8!<. I mean0 t)! (ears a5!0 )&en (!# )ere ,irst $!!-in5 at Bitc!in0 (!# -n!)0 "t8!< )ent t&r!#5& a ,reeIe t&at $asted a )ee- and it destr!(ed Bitc!in. I mean0 $i-e pe!p$e )ere para$(Ied and t&ere )asnt an(t&in5 an(.!d( c!#$d d!. F!# -n!)0 n!) )&en "t8!< &as pr!.$ems0 pe!p$e 6#st tic- t&e Oe<c$#de "t8!< ,r!m t&e priceO !n .itc!inavera5e.c!m. 9&at is t&is pr!5ressi!n &ere )ere $!!-in5 atC >3L:3/@ S: I t&in- it s&!)s t&at Bitc!in is .ec!min5 $ess centra$iIed0 t&at Bitstamp is a s!$id c!mpetit!r t! "t8!<0 t&at )&at is % B$ac-mar-et De$!aded is a s!$id c!mpetit!r t! Si$- D!ad. >3L:*?@

ABL: '!es it matter t&at t&e(re s!$id c!mpetit!rs !r d!es it 6#st matter t&at t&ere are a$ternativesC >3L:*L@ S: It needs t! .e eas( t! s)itc&. Li-e t&ere s&!#$dnt .e a vend!r $!c-%in. 9&en t&eres a vend!r $!c-%in0 its di,,ic#$t t! m!ve t! an!t&er c!mpetit!r. T&ats n!t rea$$( decentra$iIed. N!)0 (!# can0 even i, (!#r d!$$ars are st#c- at "t8!< and (!# rea$$( need .itc!ins0 (!# 6#st .#( .itc!ins and trans,er t&em !#t and its d!ne. >3/:11@ ABL: B#t its m!re e<pensive. >3/:13@ S: It is0 .#t (!# cant &ave ever(t&in5 per,ect. I, ever(t&in5 )as per,ect0 t&en ever(.!d( )!#$d .e #sin5 Bitc!in a$read( ,!r ever(t&in5. Its a si5n !, impr!vement. 9e cant 6#st t&int&at )e$$ )a-e !ne da( and ever( .itc!in )i$$ .e ever()&ere0 ever(t&in5 )i$$ .e ,ricti!n$ess0 t&ere )i$$ .e n! pr!.$ems )it& .an-s !r0 a$ternative$(0 n! .an-s. Pe!p$e are tr(in5 t! ,i5#re !#t &!) t! c!mpete0 t&e(re tr(in5 t! rep$icate t&e 5!!d t&in5s and n!t rep$icate t&e .ad t&in5s. T&eres a$s! capita$ p!#rin5 in s! t&is is .asica$$( c!mpetiti!n. Even t&!#5& it )!#$d .e nice0 !n s!me $eve$s0 t! &ave ,#$$ pr!per decentra$iIati!n .#i$t int! t&e s(stem0 &avin5 centra$iIed c!mpetit!rs c!mpetin5 a5ainst eac& !t&er is pr!.a.$( t&e ne<t .est t&in5 t&at )e can &ave. >3E:+?@ ABL: Are t&ere an( !t&er t!pics t&at (!#d $i-e t! c!ver !r an(t&in5 e$seC >3E:+L@ S: Fea&0 act#a$$(. I )anted t! menti!n m( .... t&eres an a$tc!in )&ic& I ,ind interestin5. Its ca$$ed e"#ni. I d!nt -n!) i, it sti$$ e<ists. I n!ticed t&at it )as $a#nc&ed and it #ses a di,,erent tec&ni7#e t&an a .$!c-c&ain. T&e( ca$$ it a .$!c-tree and it &as t&e interestin5 aspect t&at its c!mp$ete$( imm#ne t! *+A attac-s. T&eres n! s#c& t&in5 as a *+A attac- )it& it .#t it &as !t&er pr!.$ems. ;!r e<amp$e0 i, I #nderstand c!rrect$(0 t&ere cant .e an( minin5 in it and i, (!# &ave c!n,$ictin5 transacti!n0 t&en t&e address is .$!c-ed. T&is is .asica$$( a met&!d !, preventin5 d!#.$e%spendin5 .#t t&ere mi5&t .e reas!ns )&ere (!# )ant t! create a c!n,$ictin5 transacti!n and !verride t&e !$d !ne. Pe!p$e are tr(in5 a$$ -inds !, t&in5s. I t&in-0 ,!r e<amp$e0 &!) t&e *+A attac- is vie)ed !r treated is a .it mis#nderstandin5 .eca#se )e d!nt rea$$( need t! c!ntin#e )it& t&e r#$e t&at t&e $!n5est .$!c-c&ain is t&e a#t&!ritative. T&ere are met&!ds !, &!) % i, (!# av!id t&is r#$e t&at (!# can prevent !r0 at $east0 miti5ate t&e *+A attac-. Desearc& !, *+A attac-0 I c!nsider t&at an interestin5 t!pic. I d!nt -n!) &!) re$evant is t&at. I 6#st t&in-0 inte$$ect#a$$(0 t&ats an interestin5 t&in5. >?2:?1@ ABL: '! (!# t&in- t&at a$tc!ins t&at &ave #ses .e(!nd c#rrencies % I mean0 a simp$e e<amp$e !, t&is )!#$d .e Namec!in. A ne)er e<amp$e )!#$d .e .... >?2:*+@ S: Primec!inC >?2:*1@ ABL: Primec!in0 )e$$ (es0 (es0 Primec!in .#t Im act#a$$( t&in-in5 t&eres an!t&er !ne t&at &as0 .asica$$(0 a s!cia$ net)!r- .#i$t int! it0 ri5&tC 9&ere (!# can0 its $i-e a c!m.inati!n !, Bitmessa5e and a cr(pt!c#rrenc(. >?+:2?@ S: I see0 I d!nt -n!) t&at !ne. >?+:2*@ ABL: Its a ne) !ne0 its ca$$ed ;$!rin c!in0 t&ats )&at it is. Basica$$(0 its n!t t&at its in&erent$( s!cia$ net)!r-0 its t&at its inn!vati!n is t&at it &as messa5es .#i$t int! it. F!# can p#t0 I t&in- its +1/ c&aracter $!n5 messa5e0 and s! )it& a messa5e0 (!# can d! $!ts !, st#,,

t&at pe!p$e are a$read( d!in50 !r tr(in5 t! d! )it& Bitc!in. It 6#st0 t&en pe!p$e c!mp$ain t&at t&e(re p#ttin5 6#n- int! t&e .$!c-c&ain .eca#se its n!t rea$ transacti!ns. F!# -n!)0 (!# menti!ned t&at pe!p$e0 t&at t&e deve$!pers0 are reticent t! mess )it& Bitc!in .eca#se its 5!t pe!p$es rea$ m!ne( in it0 s! i, s!met&in5 $i-e t&is c!mes !#t and act#a$$( )!r-s0 d!es t&at mean t&at it ma-es sense ,!r Bitc!in t! imp$ement it0 !r it ma-es sense ,!r it t! .e $e,t t! d! its !)n t&in5 and Bitc!in is t&is t&in5 t&at pe!p$e #nderstand % t&at its a$read( sta.$eC >?+:?G@ S: 9e d!nt rea$$( -n!) t&at in advance. I0 as an ec!n!mist0 )!#$d sa( t&at its an empirica$ iss#e. It c!#$d .e t&at its m!re e,,icient and m!re #se,#$ i, its a separate c&ain ,!r a partic#$ar tas-0 !r it c!#$d .e t&at its .etter t! inte5rate it. I t&in- Namec!in0 ,!r e<amp$e0 s&!)s (Im n!t ,ami$iar )it& t&e !t&er !ne t&at (!# said) .#t Namec!in I t&in-0 is a 5!!d e<amp$e !, s!met&in5 t&at rea$$( &as a #ti$it( and t&at -ind !, ma-es sense t! p#t it int! a separate c&ain. >?1:+G@ ABL: As an ec!n!mist0 )&! spends a $!t !, time ,!c#sin5 !n Bitc!in0 )&( are Ke(nesians sti$$ )innin5 t&e ar5#mentsC I mean0 $i-e )&en t&ere arent !,ten ar5#ments0 #s#a$$( its 6#st i5n!rin50 .#t !#r )!r$d0 $ar5e$( spea-in50 is sti$$ .ein5 r#n !n Ke(nesian p&i$!s!p&ies and m!de$s0 even t&!#5& t&e(ve .een pr!ven n!t t! )!r- !ver and !ver a5ain. >?1:3L@ S: Ec!n!mics is a ver( interestin5 ,ie$d .eca#se its pr!.a.$( t&e !n$( ,ie$d )&ere (!# can &ave t&e same ,acts and t)! ec!n!mists a5ree !n t&e ,acts .#t dra) c!mp$ete$( !pp!site c!nc$#si!ns !#t !, t&at. I d!nt -n!) e<act$( )&( Ke(nesians are )innin5 .#t t&ere are s!me ar5#ments t&at it simp$( ,its .etter int! t&e r!$e !, a centra$ .an- t! &ave a t&e!r( t&at e<p$ains t&e centra$ .an-s are 5!!d0 and t&at t&e( can c!ntr!$ t&e ec!n!m(0 and ma-e it .etter. 9&ereas0 $ets c!mpare )it& t&e A#strians0 ,!r e<amp$e. T&e A#strians0 a$$ t&e .ranc&es t&at I -n!) !,0 .asica$$( t&e( sa( t&at t&is s&!#$dnt .e d!ne in a centra$iIed manner0 s! (!# pr!.a.$( )!#$dnt &ire an ec!n!mist t! r#n a centra$ .an- )&! t&in-s t&at centra$ .an-s are #se$ess. >?3:1E@ ABL: Its se$,%preservati!n and se$ecti!n .iasC >?3:3+@ S: Fea&0 (ea& e<act$(. >?3:31@ ABL: O-. I 5!tc&a. >?3:33@ S: T&ere are !t&er sc&!!$s )&ic& are ma(.e n!t t&at )idespread .#t t&at a$s! s#pp!rt centra$ .an-s $i-e ""T0 ,!r e<amp$e. >?3:?3@ ABL: T&ats "!dern "!netar( T&e!r(0 ri5&tC >?3:?*@ S: Fea&. Im n!t an e<pert in t&is .#t i, I #nderstand it c!rrect$(0 t&e( d! s#pp!rt a s(stem )&ere (!# &ave a centra$ .an-. "!netarists0 s!me !, t&em !r m!st !, t&em0 a$s! s#pp!rt a )a( !, e<ec#tin5 m!netar( p!$ic( )&ic& imp$ies a centra$ .an-0 .eca#se )it&!#t centra$ .an-0 (!# &ave .asica$$( c!mpetiti!n in pr!d#cti!n. T&e m!ne( s#pp$( .ec!mes ine$astic (!# cant e<ec#te m!netar( p!$ic(. >??:+3@ ABL: Di5&t. Is t&ere an(t&in5 e$se t&at (!#d $i-e t! c!ver at t&is p!intC >??:+G@ S: I t&in- t&at t&e!retica$ ec!n!mic researc& !, Bitc!in is $ac-in5 and ec!n!mists s&!#$d ta-e it m!re seri!#s$(. T&e( d!nt need t! accept it0 t&e( 6#st need t! treat it seri!#s$( .eca#se

a $!t !, t&em 6#st treat it as s!met&in5 t&at s&!#$d .e i5n!red and s&!#$dnt c&a$$en5e e<istin5 vie)s. 9&at &appens )it& Bitc!in in t&e ,#t#re0 t&at ,!r s!me!ne )&! is interested in researc&0 t&ats n!t t&at imp!rtant. T&e imp!rtant t&in5 is t&at it a$read( e<ists and t&at a$read( c&a$$en5es s!me !, !#r ass#mpti!ns and creates an interestin5 p#II$e t! s!$ve. >??:*2@ ABL: It d!es c!ntin#e t! .e a p#II$e. Peter S#rda0 t&an- (!# ver( m#c& ,!r 6!inin5 #s !n Lets Ta$- Bitc!in. >??:*/@ S: T&an- (!# ,!r &avin5 me. >?*:22@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ADVERT: Eas('NS is t&e S)iss Arm( -ni,e ,!r (!#r d!main names. e$pin5 meet t&eir c#st!mers individ#a$ needs since +EE/0 Eas('NS &as .een an !#tsp!-en critic !, SOPA and CISPA. Eas('NS )as an ear$( s#pp!rter !, Bitc!in and n!) t&e( are pr!#d t! sp!ns!r t&is s&!). '! .#siness )it& a c!mpan( t&at s&ares (!#r va$#es. 8et a +3A disc!#nt )&en (!# pa( )it& .itc!in. 8! t! .itc!in.eas('NS.c!m and .e s#re t! #se disc!#nt c!de LTB. >?*:*1@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ADVERT: i0 Step&anie &ere. 9!#$d (!# $i-e t! t#rn (!#r .!!- int! an ent&ra$$in5 a#di!.!!-C Need a pers#asive c!mmercia$ t! pr!m!te (!#r c!mpan(C !) a.!#t a narrat!r ,!r (!#r e<p$ainer vide!C eres )&ere I can &e$p. Im a ,ree$ance v!ice!ver artist and since 122E0 Ive $ent m( v!ice t! d!Iens !, a#di! pr!6ects. T! &ear s!me e<amp$es !, m( )!r-0 c&ec- !#t m( )e.site ))).smv!ice.in,!. I, (!# $i-e )&at (!# &ear0 Id $!ve t! .e t&e v!ice !, (!#r ne<t pr!6ect. 8et in t!#c& at ))).smv!ice.in,!. >?G:13@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM SM: Litec!in &as .een dr!ppin5 a $itt$e .it recent$(. I -eep an e(e !n t&e Litec!in price. I &ave a $itt$e )id5et !n m( p&!ne and Ive .een )atc&in5 it since t&is s#mmer. I remem.er in :#ne0 it )as a.!#t 32 !r 33 $itec!ins per .itc!in. T&at )as $i-e t&e rati! .et)een Litec!in and Bitc!in and n!) its m!re $i-e G2 $itec!ins per .itc!in0 !r m!re act#a$$(. Litec!ins &ave .een dr!ppin5 in va$#e re$ative t! Bitc!in0 and t&en a$s! in terms !, t&e HSB price0 Litec!ins )ere c$!ser t! B3 eac& in t&e $ast 7#arter0 I 5#ess. T&en recent$(0 !ver t&e past c!#p$e !, m!nt&s and especia$$( !ver t&e past c!#p$e !, )ee-s0 t&e(ve .een d!)n .e$!) B10 6#st #nder B1. I )!nder0 (!# -n!)0 d!es t&is &ave s!met&in5 t! d! )it& At$antis0 t&e dr#5 mar-etp$ace t&at -ind !, s&#t d!)n a c!#p$e !, )ee-s .e,!re t&e Si$- D!ad s&#t d!)n0 t&e Pirate Ba( accepted Litec!in d!nati!ns0 I t&in-0 .e,!re Bitc!in. >?L:+/@

AA: T&e( t!!- $itec!in .e,!re .itc!inC >?L:12@ SM: Fea&0 !r t&e( )ere ,av!rin5 Litec!in !r s!met&in5 $i-e t&at. Fea&0 t&ere are $i-e de,inite$( pe!p$e )&! are Litec!in ,an .!(s and ,an 5ir$s !#t t&ere ,!r s#re. Im n!t s#re e<act$( )&( t&at is and Im n!t s#re )&at t&e price dr!p is. O, c!#rse0 (!# -n!)0 a$$ )e can d! is spec#$ate. 9e rea$$( d!nt -n!)0 .#t d! (!# 5#(s &ave an( t&e!riesC >?L:3G@ ABL: F!# -n!)0 i, )ere 5!in5 t! .e )i$d$( spec#$atin50 t&ere are a ,e) t&in5s. ;irst !,,0 )eve .een )aitin5 ,!r "t8!< t! ta-e !n Litec!in and t&e( &ave .een ta$-in5 since a.!#t :#ne n!). N!t rea$$( recent$(0 .#t at t&at p!int .e,!re t&e( &ad a .#nc& !, pr!.$ems0 t&e( )ere ta$-in5 a.!#t .rin5in5 !n Litec!in as t&e ne<t trada.$e c#rrenc( !n t&e "t8!< p$at,!rm. O.vi!#s$(0 t&is )as at a p!int )&ere "t8!< )as0 a5ain0 t&e tradin5 p$at,!rm s! it )as m#c& .i55er ne)s and I t&in- it )!#$d .e i, it &appened ri5&t n!). T&e 7#esti!n I a$)a(s c!me .ac- t! is d!es t&e price matterC I t&in-0 )it& Bitc!in0 (!# can ma-e an ar5#ment t&at t&e price d!esnt rea$$( matter .#t I t&in- t&at )it& s!met&in5 $i-e Litec!in0 t&e price -ind !, d!es matter0 .eca#se t&e price n!) is an indicat!r !, )&ere t&e price )i$$ .e in t&e ,#t#re since (!# d!nt &ave t&at ,#ndamenta$ #ti$it( t! ,a$$ .ac- !n in t&e same )a( t&at Bitc!in d!es. >?/:11@ SM: I, (!# trans$ate t&e Litec!in price0 $i-e Litec!in &as .een .et)een B1 and B3 d!$$ars in t&e $ast0 ma(.e0 si< m!nt&s. I, it dr!ps ,r!m B3 t! B10 s#dden$( its $!st 33A !, its va$#e. T&at )!#$d .e $i-e Bitc!in 5!in5 ,r!m B+22 d!)n t! BGG. T&ats a &#5e dr!p. Fes0 I $i-e t&at t&e!r( a.!#t 6#st t&e -ind !, sta$$in5 !, &avin5 Litec!in !n di,,erent e<c&an5es. F!# -n!)0 "t8!< ann!#nced0 I t&in- t&e( t)eeted in :#$(0 JO& (ea&0 its 5!in5 t! .e read( in :#$(.K Its a$read( .#i$t int! t&eir API ,!r Litec!in tradin5 !n "t8!<. T&en t&e( said0JO& (ea&0 its 5!in5 t! .e read( in Septem.erK never came in Septem.er0 eit&er. N!)0 t&e(ve 5!t s! man( pr!.$ems t&at it ma( never &appen0 s! ma(.e pe!p$e &ave 6#st 5iven #p. T&e(re $ess ent&#siastic t&at Litec!in is ever 5!in5 t! .e !n an( !, t&e ma6!r e<c&an5es. Even i, it 5ets !n "t8!<0 it ma( n!t .e a ma6!r e<c&an5e .( t&e time it d!es. T&ere )as an!t&er e<c&an5e ca$$ed Litetree t&at )as !penin5. T&e( act#a$$( sent me a press re$ease t! m( Lets Ta$Bitc!in address0 and s! I c&ec-ed t&em !#t0 and it )as s#pp!sed t! .e e<c$#sive$( ,!r Litec!in tradin5. I sent !ne $itec!in int! t&e e<c&an5e and I tried t! se$$ it. I )as 5ettin5 err!r messa5es ever( time I tried t! ma-e a trade !rder. It 6#st didnt )!r-. It rea$$( 6#st )asnt read( ,!r primetime. At ,irst0 t&e( &ad partnered )it& ')!$$a and t&en t&e( ann!#nced t&at ')!$$a &ad c#t t&em !,,. T&is )as .ac- a c!#p$e !, m!nt&s a5!0 at t&e end !, A#5#st !r s!met&in5. T&ere isnt rea$$( a .i5 e<c&an5e t! trade $itec!in !n. T&eres n!t even a L!ca$Litec!ins. F!# -n!)0 (!# c!#$d trade $itec!ins !n L!ca$Bitc!ins .#t t&e( d!nt &ave t&e escr!) s#pp!rt ,!r Litec!in in t&ere0 (et. I t&in-0 ma(.e0 (!#re ri5&t Adam. It is $i-e an in,rastr#ct#re pr!.$em. T&ere are 6#st n!t as man( res!#rces t! #se t! trade $itec!ins as t&ere are )it& .itc!ins and ma(.e pe!p$e are $!sin5 steam0 as ,ar as 5ettin5 e<cited ,!r Litec!in t! c!me int! m!re e<c&an5es and st#,, $i-e t&at. >*2:+?@ ABL: 9e$$0 (!# -n!)0 t&e t&in5 t&at (!# c!#$d t&in- a.!#t is t&at0 i, t&e mar-et is a ,!r)ard $!!-in5 pricin5 mec&anism0 ri5&tC T&en0 i, pe!p$e t&!#5&t t&at it )as 5!in5 t! 5! #p in va$#e .eca#se !, s!met&in5 $i-e it c!min5 !n t&e "t8!< t! trade0 t&en t&at means t&e price )!#$d &ave 5!ne #p )e$$ in advance !, t&at &appenin5. T&at means t&at t&e price0 act#a$$(0 t&is mi5&t .e a rea$ price )ere $!!-in5 at n!). 9&ereas0 ,!r t&e $ast si< m!nt&s0 )eve .een $!!-in5 at an in,$ated price .eca#se it )as )it& t&e e<pectati!n t&at t&!se $itec!ins )!#$d t&en 5! #p in va$#e )&en t&e( )ere traded in a m!re $i7#id mar-et0 $i-e "t8!<. I mean0 I

t&in- t&ats t&e .i55er 7#esti!n is QIs t&is a rea$ price !r is t&is a de,$ated price ,r!m )&at a rea$ price ...C I mean t&eres n! )a( t! ,i5#re t&is !#t .#t .... >*2:*1@ SM: I t&in- t&e(re a$$ a rea$ price. A$s! (!# c!#$d sa( t&at a.!#t Bitc!in t!!0 ri5&tC Is a B+*2s )&atever a rea$ price ,!r Bitc!in ri5&t n!)0 !r is it in,$ated0 de,$ated0 is t&ere manip#$ati!nC Pe!p$e are a$)a(s c$aimin5 manip#$ati!n in t&e 5!$d and si$ver mar-et and Bitc!in is -ind !, n! di,,erent0 and Litec!in0 t!!. I a$)a(s s!rt !, tr#st t&at )&atever t&e price is0 (es0 t&ats t&e rea$ price. T&ats t&e avera5e !, a .#nc& !, in,!rmati!n t&at !ne pers!n rea$$( cant -n!). Its a mar-etp$ace c!min5 t!5et&er and sett$in5 !n a price p!int. >*+:1+@ AA: T&e .!tt!m $ine is &ere is t&at "t8!< &as rea$$( $!st its a.i$it( t! &e$p an( aspect !, an( virt#a$ c#rrenc(0 .#t it d!es !ccasi!na$$( ta-e a d#mp in t&e p#nc& p!!$ and .$!) #p a c#rrenc( !r destr!( t&e va$#e !, an entire 5r!#p !, invest!rs. F!# -n!)0 "t8!< is rea$$( 6#st ,$ai$in5 ar!#nd .rea-in5 st#,, ri5&t n!). I t&in- t&e(ve $!st t&e a.i$it( t! &e$p virt#a$ c#rrencies. >*+:?/@ ABL: I )!#$d tend t! a5ree )it& t&at. T&e )rec-in5 .a$$ ana$!5( rea$$( is tr#e. It ma( &ave0 at !ne p!int0 .een a ,#ncti!na$ t&in50 .#t at t&is p!int0 its 6#st0 (!# -n!)0 m!vin5 ar!#nd )i$d$( d!in5 dama5e t! ever(t&in5 it t!#c&es. I mean0 its ,#nn(0 )e ta$- a.!#t .itc!inavera5e.c!m0 (!# can0 !n .itc!inavera5e.c!m0 c$ic- a .#tt!n and c!mp$ete$( rem!ve "t8!< ,r!m t&e pricin5 str#ct#re and its t&e !n$( e<c&an5e !#t t&ere (!# can d! t&at )it&. I t&in- t&at sa(s s!met&in5. >*1:+3@ AA: T&eres a ver( t&in $ine .et)een .ein5 t&e $i,e !, t&e part( and t&r!)in5 #p !n 5randmas s&!es. >*1:+/@ ABL: Lets p$a( !#t t&e $!5ic ,!r a sec!nd. 9&at needs t! &appen ,!r Litec!in t! .e a.$e t! 5et !#t ,r!m #nder t&e s&ad!) t&at it seems t! .e #nder ri5&t n!)C F!# -n!)0 )&et&er it .e pe!p$es e<pectati!ns0 !r a $ac- !, #ti$it(0 !r )&atever. 9&at act#a$$( )!#$d ma-e t&is )!r-C >*1:3?@ AA: S#rviva$. Fea&0 .!t& Bitc!in and Litec!in and prett( m#c& an( !t&er virt#a$ c#rrenc( t&ats in t&is sit#ati!n0 a$$ it needs t! d! t! s#cceed is s#rvive. Ever( crisis t&at d!esnt -i$$ a c#rrenc( and $eaves it even )it& a resid#a$ va$#e t&ats )!rt& tradin5 !n a virt#a$ c#rrenc( e<c&an5e0 ,!r e<amp$e0 )it& an!t&er ,#n5i.$e c!mm!dit( !r c#rrenc( % i, it d!esnt -i$$ it0 it !n$( ma-es it str!n5er. I t&in- t&e same can .e said ,!r Litec!in. At t&e end !, t&e da(0 t&e reas!n Im interested in Litec!in is a c!m.inati!n !, interestin5 ,eat#res and a ,!#nder )&! &as d!ne a$$ t&e ri5&t m!ves and c!ntin#es t! ma-e a$$ t&e ri5&t m!ves. T&!se are t&e reas!ns I invest in it. I t&in- a $!t !, pe!p$e are )i$$in5 t! )ait ar!#nd and see &!) man( m!re &its Litec!in can ta-e )it&!#t c!$$apsin50 and t&ats va$#e ri5&t t&ere. >*3:11@ SM: I a5ree )it& (!#0 Andreas. Im n!t se$$in5 m( $itec!ins 6#st (et. I t&in- it mi5&t .e an interestin5 .#(in5 !pp!rt#nit(. F!# -n!)0 )e c!#$d see a .#..$e0 per&aps0 in Litec!in price i, it act#a$$( d!es end #p !n !ne !, t&ese e<c&an5es0 !r i, s!met&in5 $i-e L!ca$Bitc!ins pic-s #p Litec!in s#pp!rt0 ma-es it easier ,!r pe!p$e t! trade it0 .#t )e &ave n! )a( !, -n!)in5 )&en !r i, t&at is 5!in5 t! &appen. A$$ I 5#ess )e can -ind !, d! is -eep #sin5 it i, )e .e$ieve in it0 ri5&tC >*3:?*@ AA: As a c#rrenc(0 it rea$$( pr!ves t&e p!int t&at its primar( va$#e c!mes ,r!m 5!!d ste)ards&ip and 5!vernance .( t&e ,!#nder. I t&in- t&ats an imp!rtant p!int. >*3:*?@

ABL: One !, t&e t&in5s Im rea$$( interested in0 and a,ter &avin5 t&is recent e<perience se$$in5 t&ese Bitc!in vide! passes and #sin5 t&e .itcredit s(stem0 I rea$$(0 rea$$( t&in- t&at )ere 5!in5 t! )ind #p )it& pa(ment in,rastr#ct#res t&at are cr(pt!c#rrenc(%a5n!stic0 ri5&tC % )&ere it d!esnt necessari$( matter i, (!#re ,#ndin5 )it& Bitc!in0 !r Litec!in0 !r )&atever. I mean0 pic- (!#r c!in. H$timate$(0 t&e( #se t&e same t(pes !, in,rastr#ct#res. T&e )a(s t&at (!# need t! m!di,( t&ese s(stems in !rder t! .e a.$e t! accept m#$tip$e di,,erent t(pes !, t&in5s. Act#a$$(0 t&e in,rastr#ct#re0 m!st$(0 is t&e same. Its 6#st t&e speci,ics t&at need t! .e m!di,ied and added t!. I rea$$( t&in- t&at Litec!in is in a sit#ati!n t&at a $!t !, c!ins are in ri5&t n!)0 )&ic& is t&at0 (es0 its pr!misin5 ,!r )&atever t&e reas!n is. In t&e case !, Litec!in0 I t&in- t&e ar5#ment can de,inite$( .e made its a.!#t t&e deve$!pment team0 and t&e c!mm#nit(0 and t&e $!n5evit( .eca#se a5ain0 its &ad t&at sec!ndar( stat#s n!) ,!r a $!n5 time. Even0 (!# -n!)0 ri5&t !r )r!n50 t&at .ec!mes p!)er,#$. Its a.!#t .ein5 a.$e t! ,ind )a(s )&ere (!# d!nt0 as a ne) a$tc!in0 &ave t! 5! in and c!nvince ever( vend!r a5ain J e(0 I -n!) (!# a$read( accept seven cr(pt!c#rrencies. eres an!t&er !ne t&at (!# s&!#$d accept. ere are t&e reas!ns )&(.K It needs t! a$$ .e !ne pac-a5ed s!$#ti!n t&at vend!rs0 !r pe!p$e0 can 6#st inte5rate and accept ever(t&in5. T&at )i$$0 I t&in-0 tr#$( $et t&e mar-et e<ist !n its merits rat&er t&an e<istin5 !r dependin5 !n Bitc!in0 !r an( !, t&ese !t&er scenari!s t&at )e see pe!p$e #sin5 !#t t&ere ri5&t n!). It &as t! .e a.!#t #sin5 t&e c#rrenc( as t&e c#rrenc(. >**:+/@ SM: Its -ind !, $i-e )&at )e ta$-ed a.!#t .e,!re )it& t&e c!#nter,eit B12s vers#s t&e !nes t&at came ,r!m t&e ;edera$ Deserve. I, pe!p$e .e$ieve in it0 t&en its 5!t s!me va$#e. 4er( simi$ar t! t&at0 t! Bitc!in0 and Litec!in0 and !t&er cr(pt!c#rrencies0 as )e$$. Its an interestin5 !pp!rt#nit( ri5&t n!) .eca#se t&e ;eds0 apparent$(0 &ave seiIed0 (!# -n!)0 !n t&e !rder !, pr!.a.$( L0222 .itc!ins ,r!m t&e Si$- D!ad. T&en t&eres an!t&er .... &!) man( .itc!ins is itC Severa$ mi$$i!n0 its s!met&in5 $i-e B/2 mi$$i!n !, .itc!ins t&at are $!c-ed #p in t&is )a$$et t&at !n$( D!ss H$.ric&t &as t&e -e(0 a$$e5ed$(0 t!. P!tentia$$(0 t&at is a &#5e percent. T&ats $i-e *A !, a$$ t&e .itc!ins t&at are !#t t&ere ri5&t n!) t&at c!#$d .e 6#st 5!ne. Li-e0 ta-en !,, t&e ta.$e0 !,, t&e mar-et. F!# -n!)0 ma(.e t&!se )i$$ .e $!c-ed #p ,!rever. >*G:2*@ AA: T&ats 5reat= >*G:2G@ SM: Fea&. I t&in- t&ats 5reat0 t!!0 .eca#se t&en it )i$$ increase t&e va$#e !, t&e remainin5 .itc!ins. 9i$$ s!me pe!p$e t#rn t! st#,, $i-e Litec!ins and !t&er a$tc!ins .eca#se its 6#st t&at .itc!ins are in s#c& s&!rt s#pp$( and t&e(re 5!in5 #p s! m#c& t&at ma(.e )e$$ )ant t! $!!int! s!me a$ternatives. I d!nt -n!)0 .#t I t&in- it )i$$ .e interestin5 t! see. >*G:1?@ ABL: I t&in- t&e divisi.i$it( !, cr(pt!c#rrencies ma-e t&is a s!rt !, m!!t p!int. >*G:1E@ SM: T&eres a$)a(s t&at ps(c&!$!5ica$ aspect t&!#5&. Pe!p$e )ant !ne .itc!in !r t)! .itc!in. 2.221 is 6#st n!t t&e same as0 (!# -n!)0 a 7#arter !r a nic-e$ !r )&atever0 ri5&tC >*G:?2@ ABL: F!#re ri5&t. Its t!ta$$( a percepti!n t&in5 .#t at t&e same time i, I can .#( s!met&in5 )!rt& B*2 ,!r0 (!# -n!)0 2.? .itc!in t&en. Im 6#st sa(in5 t&at mat& c#ts .!t& )a(s and t&e percepti!n is de,inite$( t&ere s! t&at )&en (!#re .#(in5 t&em (!# ,ee$ $i-e (!#re n!t 5ettin5 a $!t ,!r (!#r m!ne(0 .#t t&en (!#re spendin5 t&em and (!# ,ee$ $i-e (!#re 5ettin5 a $!t ,!r (!#r m!ne(. >*L:22@

AA: Im ,racti!na$$( ric&= >*L:21@ ABL: E<act$(. T&at d!es .rin5 #p an interestin5 7#esti!n. '! (!# t&in- t&at t&ere is a ,#t#re !#t t&ere0 eit&er !, (!#0 )&ere pe!p$e are #sin5 ,racti!ns !, .itc!ins and .ein5 &app( a.!#t itC Li-e t&ats 6#st t&e n!rma$ part !, $i,e0 )&ere instead !, &avin5 it .e B120 its 2.21 !r 2.221C >*L:13@ SM: "a(.e )e can &ar-en .ac- t! Lets Ta$- Bitc!in Epis!de + and ta$- a.!#t t&e s)itc& t! mi$$i.its. T&at c!#$d &appen s!!ner rat&er t&an $ater. I a$s! 5et it t&at its 6#st an!t&er t&in5 t! e<p$ain. Li-e0 i, s!me!ne d!esnt -n!) )&at Bitc!in is and t&e(re 6#st intr!d#ced t! t&e c!ncept and t&en (!#re $i-e0 JO&0 .( t&e )a(0 )&en (!# 5! t! .#( a c#p !, c!,,ee0 its n!t rea$$( a .itc!in. Its $i-e (!#re sendin5 1 mi$$i.its !r s!met&in5 $i-e t&at.K T&ats an e<tra $a(er !, c!n,#si!n ,!r t&em and t&e(re m!re $i-e$( t! t&r!) #p t&eir &ands and sa( JA&0 t&is d!esnt ma-e sense0K (!# -n!). >*L:*3@ AA: 9&at is t&is0 drac&masC >*L:*?@ ABL: "a(.e its n!t t&e n!menc$at#re t&ats t&e pr!.$em0 s! m#c& as it is t&e pace t&at )ere !n ri5&t n!). F!# $!!- at t&e )a( t&at Sat!s&i $aid !#t minin5 and distri.#ti!n !, t&e c#rrenc(0 and I t&in- t&at .( t&e time )e 5!t n!) ,ive (ears int! t&e $i,e !, Bitc!in0 I d!nt t&in- it )as e<pected t! .e 7#ite as p!p#$ar as it is. I d!nt t&in- t&e price )as e<pected t! &ave appreciated 7#ite as m#c& as it did. I mean0 it seems $i-e )e &ave a series !, tippin5 p!ints in !#r ,#t#re0 )&ere )e$$ pass a certain t&res&!$d t&at )e cant even .e5in t! descri.e !r identi,( ri5&t n!) and a )&!$e !t&er set !, 5r!#ps are 5!in5 t! r#s& int! it0 and t&e price )i$$ 5! #p a $!t m!re .eca#se !, t&atR .eca#se !, t&at en&anced #ti$iIati!n and #ti$it(. I, t&at same pr!5ressi!n t!!- t)ent( (ears0 )!#$d it .e a .i5 dea$ t! .e ta$-in5 a.!#t t&ese decima$s0 !r )!#$d it ,ee$ $i-e m!re !, a nat#ra$ de,$ati!nar( pr!cess since its &appenin5 !ver a $!n5 peri!d !, timeC >*/:?1@ AA: T&eres n!t&in5 nat#ra$ a.!#t t&is pr!cess ri5&t n!) )&ere )ere e<periencin5 &!c-e( st!c- 5r!)t& !n prett( m#c& ever( parameter in Bitc!in. At t&e m!ment0 )ere in t&e e<p$!sive p&ase and Bitc!in is e<pandin5 ,aster t&an s!me !, its ,eed.ac- $!!ps and t&at $eads t! v!$ati$it(. T&ats ,ine. I )as )atc&in50 6#st (esterda(0 a s&!) ,r!m :an#ar( 12+1 a T4 s&!) ca$$ed OT&e 8!!d 9i,e0O )&ic& is a $e5a$ drama0 and t&e( &ad an epis!de a.!#t Bitc!in. J9&! is Sat!s&iCK It )as interestin5 6#st .eca#se0 &avin5 ta-en p$ace in :an#ar( 12+10 t&e entire epis!de )as .ased ar!#nd a B3 per .itc!in price p!int. T&e c!nversati!n )as s! di,,erent t&an )&at (!#d envisi!n it t! .e t!da(0 s! its nice t! trave$ .ac- in time and see &!) m#c& t&in5s &ave c&an5ed in 6#st a (ear and a &a$,. >*E:32@ MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ABL: T&an-s ,!r $istenin5 t! Epis!de *+ !, Lets Ta$- Bitc!in. C!ntent ,!r t!da(s s&!) )as pr!vided .( Step&anie "#rp&(0 Andreas ". Ant!n!p!#$!s and Peter S#rda. Additi!na$ editin5 )as pr!vided .( "att&e) Sip-in0 !n%$!cati!n en5ineerin5 .( Cr(sta$ Levine and m#sic )as pr!vided .( 8erard D#.ens. 4ide! c!n,erence passes are n!) avai$a.$e )it& t&e intr!d#cti!n and -e(n!te .( :e,,re( T#c-er and t&e ,irst &!#r $!n5 pane$ avai$a.$e ,!r ,ree. ;!r near$( si< &!#rs !, c!n,erence ta$-s0 $ect#res and spea-ers visit .itc!invide!pass.c!m. >+:22:23@