Let's Talk Bitcoin

Episode 15 Trust But Verify Participants

Adam B. Levine (ABL) Host Stephanie Murphy (SM) Co-Host Andreas M. Antonopolous - Co-Host Gavin Andresen (GA) Lead Developer o Bit!oin-"# $eter Bushnell ($B) Lead Developer o %eather!oin Alan &einer (A&) Lead Developer o Armory 'allet ABL: Hi( and )el!ome to Let*s #al+ Bit!oin. #oday*s episode is all a,out developers. $eter Bushnell Lead Developer o %eather!oin tells us ho) %eather!oin puts the un ,a!+ in !rypto!urren!ies( their -ro)in- !ommunity and their ,i- plans or the uture. #hen Stephanie and Andreas .oin me or the !on!lusion o our !onversation on the potential or mi!rotransa!tion po)ered ,usiness models( ollo)ed up ,y a !hat )ith Alan &einer( Lead Developer o Armory )allet )ho helps me understand the potential o a ne) te!hni/ue !alled mi!ro-,illin-. But irst( Stephanie Murphy !au-ht up )ith Bit!oin Lead Gavin Andresen on the sho) loor at Bit!oin 0123 last month. #hey dis!uss ori-ins( e4pe!tations( pro.e!ts( and pit alls. 5n.oy the sho). SM: &i-ht( tal+in- )ith Gavin Andresen. He*s the Lead Developer or Bit!oin. Hi( Gavin. GA: Hi. SM: So you( 6 -uess on a personal note to start o )ith( you live in Massa!husetts is that ri-ht7 GA: 8eah( 6 do( 6 live in Amherst( Massa!husetts. SM: 9:. 6 )ent to !olle-e at ;Mass Amherst so 6*m very amiliar )ith that area. GA: 9h( did you ta+e any -eolo-y !ourses7 SM: <o( 6 didn*t 6 )as ,io-!hemistry ma.or.

GA: My )i e*s a -eolo-y pro essor there )hi!h is )hy... SM: 9h( -ot!ha. 8eah( 6 really li+e the area as someone )ho*s very anti-)ar personally mysel there )ere al)ays pea!e demonstrations even almost ten years a-o )hen (lau-hs) 6 )as an under-raduate( so do you li+e the livin- there7 GA: 8eah( Amherst is a -reat pla!e to live. 6 have 0 +ids. 6t*s a )onder ul pla!e to raise +ids. 6t*s a !olle-e to)n so there*s al)ays interestin- thin-s happenin- there. 6 hi-hly re!ommend it. SM: So( 6 irst ound out a,out you a !ouple o years a-o ,e!ause you( 6 remem,er( had lun!h )ith 6an and Mar+ my !ollea-ues at %ree #al+ Live( and you )ere tryin- to sell them on the idea o this Bit!oin thin- and they )ere li+e ='hat the hell is this Bit!oin thin-7 But this -uy )ants meet us or lun!h( so 9: )e*ll listen to him(> so do you remem,er that7 GA: 9h( yeah( 6 remem,er that lun!h. 6 drove up to :eene and met )ith 6an and Mar+ )ho )ere late( i 6 re!all. 'e had a very ni!e lun!h and 6 tal+ed a,out this !ra?y e4periment !alled Bit!oin that )as .ust startin- to ,e!ome interestin-( and i 6 re!all !orre!tly( Mar+ paid or my lun!h and 6 paid him in ,it!oin. SM: 9h( !ool( 6 ,et he*s happy )ith that no). GA: 8eah( 6 thin+ i he +ept them( and you !an as+ him i he +ept them( then it turned out to ,e a pretty -ood deal or him. SM: 8eah( a,solutely( so ho) did you irst -et involved )ith Bit!oin7 'hat )as your story rom the very ,e-innin-7 GA: Sure. 6 )as a!tually loo+in- around or an interestin- pro.e!t to -et involved in( and 6 tal+ed to a !ouple o riends in Amherst a,out potential start-up ,usinesses and nothin- really stu!+( ,ut )hile 6 )as in the pro!ess o doin- that( 6*ve done startup ,usinesses in the past( 6 stum,led a!ross this really interestin- open sour!e pro.e!t !alled Bit!oin - 6 .ust sa) a lin+ to a ,lo- @thatA )as tal+in- a,out it. 6t !au-ht my interest. 6*ve ,een interested in e!onomi!s( in !rypto-raphy( in peer-to-peer te!hnolo-ies and so 6 read everythin- 6 !ould a,out it. Ba!+ then you !ould a!tually read everythin-( pretty mu!h( that had ever ,een )ritten a,out Bit!oin ,e!ause it )as still pretty small. #his )as in May o 0121. SM: 9:( yeah. GA: #hen 6 did the simplest possi,le pro.e!t 6 !ould possi,ly thin+ o .ust to( you +no)( 6 am a pro-rammer( so 6 -otta try it to see i it )ill )or+ and -et my eat )et )ith it( )hi!h )as this

)e,site that ,e!ame amous !alled the Bit!oin %au!et. SM: 8es( 6 remem,er that and it )as -ivin- a)ay B ,it!oins or somethin-. GA: 'hen )e started( yeah( 6 spent B1 )hole dollars and ,ou-ht 21(111 ,it!oins. SM: 9h( my -oshC GA: Ba!+ then you !ould ,uy or DB1 and then 6 -ave them a)ay B at a time until 6... SM: Did that !han-e over time7 Did it -et less7 GA: 9h( yeah( as the ,it!oin pri!e )ent up 6 had to de!rease it repeatedly ,e!ause it turns out that i you -ive a)ay more than a !ertain amount it ,e!omes pro ita,le or people to try to really !heat it and -et more than their air share. SM: &i-ht (lau-hs). #hat*s really interestin- you started the Bit!oin %au!et and that )as your irst Bit!oin pro.e!t. 'hen did you start )or+in- on the !ode7 GA: 6t )as a!tually ri-ht around that same time 6 started to !ommuni!ate )ith Satoshi( the !reator o Bit!oin( and started to help out )ith maintenan!e o the !ode( su,mit improvements to the !ode and... that ,e!ame .ust my ull-time .o,. #hat )as all 6 )as doin-. Doin- it as a volunteer or the open sour!e pro.e!t. Got su!+ed in deeper and deeper. SM: So( you !au-ht the ,u- rom the very ,e-innin-. 8ou !au-ht the Bit!oin ,u-. 'hat did you see as a potential ,a!+ in 011E( )as it7 GA: 0121. SM: 01217 54!use me. Ba!+ in 0121 ()hat did you see as the potential or Bit!oin or did you not really +no) ,ut thou-ht it )as really e4!itin-( )hat )ere you thin+in- as ar as the uture7 GA: 'ell( 6 thou-ht that there )as a small possi,ility that it )ould ,e!ome really( really( really ,i-( and you +no)( )or+in- on thin-s that have a potential o ,e!omin- really( really ,i-( that*s the de inition o an entrepreneur )ho*s interested in ,i- ideas. SM: &i-ht.

GA: 6t*s a!tually ,e!ome mu!h ,i--er( mu!h /ui!+er than 6 e4pe!ted. 'e have over a thousand people here at this !on eren!e. 6 you*d as+ed me ,a!+ in 0121 i there*d ,e a Bit!oin !on eren!e attra!tin- over a thousand people( 6 )ould have lau-hed at you and said nah it*s -onna ta+e at least B or 21 years ,e ore )e -et to that level o interest. But( no( it*s really e4!eeded my e4pe!tations. SM: 8ou said you )ere interested in e!onomi!s ,e ore this. Can you tell me a little more a,out that7 GA: 8eah( 6 am mostly a li,ertarian. 6 say =mostly> ,e!ause 6 am not all the )ay a li,ertarian ,ut... SM: 'hat are your sti!+in- points7 Fust !urious. GA: 6 do thin+ there is a role or -overnment. 6 even thin+ that there mi-ht ,e a role o reali?in- that people !an ,e lu!+y and ma+e a lot o money. May,e there is a role or ta+insome o the money that people ma+e merely ,e!ause they are lu!+y and may,e heard a,out Bit!oin )hen it )as really early and -ivin- that to people )ho may,e )eren*t so lu!+y( so 6 do ,elieve in a minimum so!ial sa ety net to a point set ,y... SM: 8ou did that voluntarily. GA: 6 did( )ith the Bit!oin %au!et( ri-ht( and that )as the idea o spreadin- the )ealth. SM: 8ou didn*t need a -overnment to tell you you have to do it. GA: #hey didn*t and 6 thin+ you !ould have a !ompletely voluntary system( ,ut 6 thin+ there*d ,e a lon- )ay to -et there. SM: 8eah( so apprehensive. Did you +no) that 6*m -oin- to -ive a moderated panel tomorro) a,out non-pro its usin- Bit!oin and )e*re here )ith three non-pro it or-ani?ations today tal+in- a,out )hy Bit!oin is -reat or non-pro its and non-pro its are -reat or Bit!oin too ,e!ause it sho)s that this does have totally !harita,le( le-itimate uses... GA: A,solutely. SM: ...used to help people.

GA: 6 love seein- people usin- Bit!oin to do -ood. 6t .ust... it*s -reat or Bit!oin( it*s... SM: 6t lo)ers... GA: 6t*s -reat or the )orld. SM: 6t really lo)ers the ,arrier or entry or !harities as )ell ,e!ause startin- up %r33 Aid( )hi!h is a volunteer irst aid or-ani?ation that 6 )or+ )ith( )e had to re-ister or all these ,an+ a!!ounts and $aypal lo!+ed do)n our a!!ount t)i!e or seemin-ly no reason( and )e really started to see the value o Bit!oin ri-ht a)ay ,e!ause that .ust !an*t happen )ith Bit!oin( and there*s transparen!y ,uilt in too ,e!ause you !an audit the ,lo!+ !hain any time you )ant you !an see )hat ,it!oins )e have and )here )e pay them out to. 6 -uess you*d have to +no) )ho*s addresses )e*re payin- them out to ,ut you !an see )hat )e have and our assets on hand and 6 thin+ that*s really valua,le or a !harity to have that availa,le and that transparen!y ,uilt in. #ell me more a,out your interest in e!onomi!s7 6 don*t thin+ 6 let you inish a,out that. GA: 8eah( 6 a!tually never too+ an e!onomi!s !lass in !olle-e and never really -ot interested in e!onomi!s until later in li e )hen 6 started to ,e!ome more o a li,ertarian( /uite ran+ly( and started to read Henry Ha?litt*s =5!onomi!s in 9ne Lesson>... SM: 9h( -reat ,oo+( yeahC GA: ...)hi!h is a -reat ,oo+ and .ust a ,un!h o other... #he ,oo+s that really tal+ a,out ho) our money system )or+s and ho) the e!onomy )or+s and it really made a lot o sense to me. 6 am a pro-rammer so 6 li+e to +no) ho) thin-s )or+. SM: 8eah( a,solutely. GA: #he more 6 learned a,out ho) thin-s )or+ed the more interested 6 -ot a,out learninmore a,out ho) the e!onomy )or+s. 6s :eynesian e!onomi!s !orre!t or not7 6 don*t thin+ it is. SM: 8eah. GA: 8ou +no) in .ust those +ind o ideas !ome to ruition in Bit!oin as this really interestine4periment and a very di erent e!onomi! model ,ased on this really hard money. 6t*s also -lo,al so that*s really interestin-. SM: And a de lationary !urren!y )hi!h... 6 )as .ust tal+in- to &o,ert 'en?el a,out this( he

does the 5!onomi! $oli!y Fournal( 6*ve never seen a de lationary !urren!y in my li e time. 6 have al)ays lived in the ;S( 6*m around thirty( and 6*ve al)ays -ro)n up )ith in!entives to spend the money 6 have ,e!ause it*s -oin- to ,e loosin- it*s value and also to ,orro)( /uite ran+ly( ,e!ause )hen you repay that de,t it*s -oin- to ,e !heaper. 6*ve never really had stron- in!entives to save( and )ith Bit!oin( there are stron- in!entives to save ,e!ause it !ould ,e )orth a lot more in the uture( ri-ht7 Some people mi-ht thin+ o that as hoardin- ,ut you !an also thin+ o it as savin-( ri-ht( as a!!umulatin- )ealth that you may,e )ant to do somethin- )ith later( ri-ht7 GA: A,solutely( yeah( and it is interestin-G 6*m paid in ,it!oin so my salary is no) paid ,y the Bit!oin %oundation... SM: CoolC GA: ...in ,it!oin and 6 don*t spend all those ,it!oin ri-ht a)ay and so 6*m re)arded or delayin- -rati i!ation( ri-ht7 Be!ause ,it!oin tends to ,e!ome more valua,le over time you thin+ t)i!e a,out do 6 really need that !andy ,ar or )hatever7 SM: 8eah. GA: So.. SM: Do 6 really need that 21(111 ,it!oin pi??a7 (lau-hs) GA: 8eah( e4a!tly. #he hoardin- thin- is interestin- ,e!ause there is another dynami! )hi!h is that i you*ve ,een holdin- or a )hile you -et ree money and so you*re li+e aah( 6 had 21 ,it!oin( 6 had a pi??a )orth o ,it!oins no) it*s )orth t)o pi??as 6 mi-ht as )ell ,uy a pi??a and... SM: &i-ht. GA: ...still have a pi??a )orth o ,it!oin. SM: 8eah( e4a!tly. GA: So( 6 thin+ the )hole system )ill )or+ itsel out. SM: #he other interestin- thin- a,out that pi??a thou-h. #here is a sort o parado4 there

,e!ause that -uy helped ma+e Bit!oin )hat it is today. He helped le-itimi?e it and ma+e it +no)n that it !an ,e used as a medium o e4!han-e. %rom )hat 6*ve heard( he*s not upset that he spent 21(111 on a pi??a( ri-ht. GA: 'ell( 6*m the -uy )ho -ave a)ay 21(111 ,it!oins... SM: 8eah( that*s ri-ht. GA: ...throu-h the %au!et. So you +no) 6*ve -iven a)ay 2.0 million dollars )orth o ,it!oins and... SM: #hat*s ama?in-. GA: 6 don*t re-ret it either ,e!ause i 6 hadn*t have done that( you +no)( it ,ootstraps the e!onomy and spendin- your !oins ma+es any !oins you still hold more valua,le. SM: 8eah( a,solutely. 6 thin+ those t)o in!entives to save and to spend are ,alan!ed ,y ,oth o those a!tors so( yeah( it*s interestin- to tal+ a,out that. So( are you )or+in- on any other Bit!oin pro.e!ts ,esides .ust the !ode( or is that ta+in- up your )hole time7 GA: &i-ht no) 6 am a 211H on !ore development on the !ode( on ,ein- the Chie S!ientist o the Bit!oin %oundation and thin+ a,out )hat pro,lems )e are -oin- to en!ounter ne4t as Bit!oin -ets even more )ildly popular. SM: 'hat are the ,i--est pro,lems on the plate7 'hat do you thin+ are -oin- to ,e the ne4t !hallen-es7 GA: S!ala,ility( so s!alin- up to handle more transa!tions re/uires some !han-es to the so t)are that )e*re runnin-. 'hi!h is( you +no) - s!ala,ility is a really -ood pro,lem to have. SM: 8eah( de initely. GA: So that*s a ,i- issue. 6*ve ,een )or+in- on )allet se!urity a lot. 6 thin+ )e need to ma+e it mu!h harder to either have your ,it!oin stolen or to lose your ,it!oins. So there is a!tually a lot o )or+ on top o the lo)-level Bit!oin to ma+e that happen. A lot o user inter a!e )or+ to .ust to ma+e Bit!oin easier to use( so there is plenty to ,e done. SM: 8eah. 6 am sure.

GA: 6 am not Satoshi. SM: <o (lau-hs). 9+ay( )e have you on the re!ord or that. 'here !an people ind you i they )ant to ollo) you on t)itter or .ust +eep in tou!h7 GA: 6 am pretty easy to ind. I-avinandresen is my t)itter handle( -avinandresenI-mail.!om is my email address. 6 you -oo-le =Gavin Andresen> you*ll ind out lots a,out me. So... SM: Does the Bit!oin %au!et still e4ist7 GA: 6 had to shut the Bit!oin %au!et do)n. SM: 9+ay. #urn it o . GA: 6 turned it o ,e!ause 6 didn*t have time to )or+ on the !ode to prevent the !heaters rom !heatin-( un ortunately. SM: 8eah( 6 -ot!ha. 9+ay Gavin than+ you so mu!h or tal+in- )ith me today. 6 appre!iate your time. GA: <o pro,lem( -reat to tal+ to you. (short pause )ith musi! playin-) ABL: Startin- a ne) !rypto!urren!y is easy. %indin- adoption that )ill ma+e it su!!ess ul( not so mu!h. $eter Bushnell is the Lead Developer o %eather!oin a ne) alt-!hain laun!hed early in 0123. 'ith ne) !oins !omin- up all the time( 6 sat do)n )ith $eter )hat ma+es it stand out. 'hat ma+es it demand time and attention rom those interested in !rypto!urren!ies over all the other options out there7 PB: %or mysel 6 +ept )aitin- or a S!rypt !oin to !ome out( so )e have Lite!oin and 6*ve al)ays ,een a hu-e an o Lite!oin. 6*ve had a lot o un minin- it in the past rom )hen it )as very ne) and you !ould mine several hundred !oins a day )ith very little e ort( and as it*s -one alon-( it*s matured. 8ou have Bit!oin )hi!h is hu-e( it*s -ot all the hash rate. 8ou*ve -ot Lite!oin )hi!h is pretty mu!h assured to as!end to Go4 and ,e!ome a -reat thin-. 6t*s already in pla!e and a lot o the !hallen-e is -one( and 6 +ept )aitin- or a ne) S!rypt !oin to !ome alon- and several did ,ut they )eren*t /uite ri-ht in )hat they did. #he ni!he !oin 6 )as

loo+in- or )as simply a !oin that !ontinued )hat Lite!oin started. A !oin )hi!h has J times more !oins than previous one. 6n my mind( it )as li+e the denomination o !oins. 8ou -ot Bit!oin 02 million !oins( you have Lite!oin - KJ million !oins( and let*s ta+e it urther - the !opper( )hi!h is J times as many !oins a-ain. 6 sort o sa) a spot or that. 6t*s -reat havin!oins )ith -reat e4pense ,ut some people li+e to deal in )hole !oins. 'ith %eather!oin( you -ot lots o )hole !oins to deal )ith. 6 started in this as a ho,,yist( as an enthusiast. #hat*s ho) 6 started minin-( and or me( it )as un. 6t )as un to -et in and ,e !hallen-ed ,y the o,sta!les that !oins )ere a!ed( and these o,sta!les and !hallen-es have -one to an e4tent( and 6 )anted to ,rin- it ,a!+ to the enthusiasm o a ne) !oin. #he !hallen-es that you a!e all over laun!hin- a ne) !oin )hi!h is pretty mu!h )hat 6*ve tried to do. 'hen 6 laun!hed this !oin( 6 a!tually.. one o the thin-s that )ent into that little ,lur, )hen 6 laun!hed( it )as =let*s have some un> as )ell as tryin- to laun!h a !oin that*s -oin- to -o out there and ,e a,le to !ompete let*s have a !oin that the enthusiast !an -et a hold o . A lot o people a!tually rea!ted ne-atively to that )hi!h 6 thou-ht )as a ,it sad. 6t*s -ot to do )ith money so there is nothinun in it( ,ut no( there is. 6 you*re a ho,,yist( i you*re .ust startin- out( you*re .ust tryin- to mine !oins or .oy( %eather!oin has a pla!e or you. 'e are very a!!eptin- o people. 'e have a really antasti! !ommunity that em,ra!es every,ody )ho !omes alon-( and as a lot o people are .ust startin- out )ith this )ho have really rallied ,ehind us. 'e have lon--standinmem,ers as )ell )hi!h is -reat to see ,e!ause these -uys sometimes it*s hard to -et them to a!!ept the ne). 'e have su!h a varied !ommunity. 6t is a lot o un ri-ht no). #his is )hat )e )anted to do( to re!reate the spirit that )e have )ith a ne) venture( a ne) !oin to -et every,ody rallyin- to-ether( -et every,ody )or+in- on pro.e!ts( and there is so mu!h -oinon. 6t*s su!h a e4!itin- thin- to ,e part o . 6 am really enthusiasti! a,out )hat )e are doinhere. ABL: So( you said a !ouple o thin-s there that 6 thin+ ma+e sense to me. 8ou said as adoption has hit these other primary !hains( you +no) li+e Bit!oin and Lite!oin( it -ets harder to mine( so )hat you*re sayin- is that %eather!oin )as !reated initially ,e!ause it ,rou-ht the un ,a!+ into it )hi!h means that it )as easy to mine at the ,e-innin- )hen it )asn*t )orth very mu!h ,e!ause not many people )ere on it ,e!ause it )as a ne) !oin. 6s that ri-ht7 PB: 6n part. 6t allo)s the miners to a!tually mine and -et some !oins... it seems a pe!uliar thin-. 'hen 6 started 6 started loo+in- at minin- Bit!oin all that time a-o - a year and a hal or so and 6 !ould mine 1.2 ,it!oin a day )hi!h seemed pretty unsatis a!tory to me. So( or mysel ( 6 a!tually started minin- Lite!oin ,e!ause 6 !ould mine 011 a day( and they )eren*t )orth anythin- ,ut or me it )as a .oy to mine these !oins they had some value and 6 )as -oin- to start a!!ruin- these. 6 -uess 6 )as a spe!ulative miner. 6t !ertainly paid o . #he a!t )as that the Bit!oin !ommunity there )asn*t as mu!h un there or me. 6t )as a lot harder to -et in as some,ody )ho had .ust !ome alon- in Lite!oin. Lite!oin )as ne). 5very,ody )as +een( )or+in- on it( tryin- to develop servi!es every)here( tryin- to -et mer!hant adoption( and it seemed li+e a mu!h more un !ro)d to ,e a part o . ;n ortunately all that seems to have -one( and to me it*s let*s -et that -oin- a-ain )hi!h is )hat 6*ve tried to do. See( you !an !ome to %eather!oin @andA you !an mine more !oins. #he di i!ulty shouldn*t ,e as hi-h it is and it*s !omin- do)n. Be!ause )e had su!h a rush at the ,e-innin-. So( many people mined it. 'e -ot pushed up to a very hi-h di i!ulty )hi!h ri-ht no) slo)ly !omin- ,a!+ rom. 6t*s ta+in- a )hile. %e) more di i!ulty !han-es under a,out and )e*ll ,e ti!+in- alon- ni!ely a-ain.

ABL: 6 do )anna -et into the spe!i i!s o the !han-es that you have made ,e!ause 6 thin+ those are important to hi-hli-ht( ,ut 6 )anna as+ - are there any reasons ,esides the a!t that*s it*s easy to mine7 Let*s say )e are si4 months do)n the road and it*s .ust as hard to mine %eather!oin as it is to mine Lite!oin. 6s %eather!oin still un to mine at that point or do you have to start another !hain in order to ,e a,le to have un7 PB: <o( not ne!essarily( ,ut it )ouldn*t stop any,ody rom laun!hin- additional !oins in line )ith the ones that e4ist. ABL: 6 don*t understand )hat the advanta-e is ,esides the minin- part7 PB: 'hen 6 laun!hed this !oin( 6 !ertainly didn*t )ant to ma+e an e4perimental !oin. 6 )anted to ma+e a !oin that !ould last. #here*s lots o eatures out there li+e demurra-e )here BH o !oins disappear every year. 6 didn*t )ant to in!lude these eatures no) ,e!ause 6 )anted it to ,e e4periment- ree so it !an last the test o time. 'hat 6 )ant to do is 6 )ant to a!tively in!orporate )hatever eatures are out there that do prove themselves. 6 there is a +iller app( there is a +iller eature )e )ant to in!lude that. 6 )ant to ma+e %eather!oin so mu!h more than it is ri-ht no). 6 thin+ a lot o people .ust loo+ at it and they see J times more !oins. 6t doesn*t o er mu!h. 6t*s not very e4!itin-( and that*s )hat )e are )or+in- to !han-e. 'hen )e !ame a!ross.. )hen )e -otta mine to a very hi-h di i!ulty the Lite!oin di i!ulty ad.usts( )hi!h suits Lite!oin -reat ,e!ause it has a !ertain amount o hash po)er that it !an ta+e or -ranted @,utA it doesn*t suit another smaller !oin )here the hash po)er )ould .ust disappear. So in that !ase )e hard or+ed. 'e !ame a!ross a pro,lem and )e hard or+ed( and our di i!ulty a!tually !han-es J times more re/uently than Lite!oin. But .ust to J2.JH at a time )hi!h ma+es it same overall !han-e per 012L ,lo!+s( )hile )e !han-e @perA B1J( ,ut .ust ma+es it more ine--rained so i )e !ome a!ross a pro,lem )e are not a raid to ma+e !han-es or it. #here*s various thin-s )e are loo+in- at in the !lient. 'e )ant to implement %eather!oin ;&Ls. #here*s a ;&L on the s!reen( you !li!+ it( it opens the !lient( populates the amount( the address. #hese thin-s that Bit!oin has loo+ed to implement in the past ,ut hasn*t ,een ully done. 'e*re !ertainly loo+in- to ma+e the !lient more !onsumer riendly. #he !lient you see( the "# !lient( hasn*t really -ot the attention you mi-ht*ve hoped. Bit!oin is so ,i- and 6 am not sure )hy the !lient is so sort o aah( you +no). 6n our !ommunity( there are so many ideas !omin- ,a!+ on )hat they )ant to see done )ith the !lient( and that*s )hat )e are )or+in- to implement. 'e are )or+in- to evolve this. 6 am not sure ho) mu!h Bit!oin !an do in some )ays. 6t*s a mature produ!t( there are so many people involved - i they ma+e !han-es( it !ould ,e other)ise di i!ult or them to implement and roll them out( -et them a!!epted. %eather!oin as it is ,ein- a ne)er !oin it is mu!h easier or us to evolve it and that*s !ertainly )hat )e are loo+in- to do( the amount o eed,a!+ that )e*ve -ot. 'e have a site setup as a user voi!e site eed,a!+. eather!oin.!om. 'e are -ettin- ideas !omin- in there and )e are loo+in- to implement eatures. 'e*re -oin- out( )e are en-a-in- )ith developers and )hat not to see )hat )e !an do. 'e )anna -ro) this( )e -ot su!h -reat enthusiasm )e are -oin- to do somethin- )ith it. ABL: So there*s a development team ,ehind %eather!oin( then7 'hat you are tellin- me is

that the %eather!oin( as it is ri-ht no)( is not the %eather!oin that )ill ,e in the uture so it ma+es sense to ,uy %eather!oin no) ,e!ause in the uture it )ill ,e ,etter and )ill have more advanta-es that )ill... you*re -onna pi!+ and !hoose rom thin-s that )or+ and add those on to the e4istin- really ,asi! stru!ture o %eather!oin. 6s that ri-ht7 PB: 8eah( )e are -oin- to !herry-pi!+. 6 you see a antasti! idea you*d ,e da t to i-nore it( really. 8ou see.. ABL: #hat is the plan. #hat*s the plan is to a!tually innovate and to ta+e all these eatures and put them into %eather!oin and throu-h doin- that ma+e %eather!oin stand on its o)n as opposed to ,ein-( li+e you said( the !opper to Lite!oin*s silver. PB: 'e )ant to ,e so mu!h more )ith this !lient. Certainly( )e are hopin- that some o the eatures )e implement( other people )ill use. #here*s ,een various attempts at some eatures over time )hi!h haven*t )or+ed out )e )ant to ta+e a loo+ at those a-ain - try them a-ain and then( o !ourse( it*s all open sour!e so every,ody else !an ta+e our -reat ideas as )ell( ,ut )e )anna ,e there( )e )anna ,e there irst. 6 thin+ )e !ertainly its - )e !omplement Bit!oin and Lite!oin. 6 thin+ Lite!oin has proved that there is room or more than one alt. A lot o people are .ust sayin- )e only need one !oin. #hat*s not the )ay it*s -oin- to ,e. #here*s al)ays -oin- to ,e... people )ant more than one option. 8ou don*t put all your e--s into one ,as+et. #he innovation !omes rom the other !oins. 6 thin+ you have to try harder and that*s !ertainly )hat )e*re doin-. ABL: 6s %eather!oin !urrently traded on any e4!han-es7 PB: 6t is. #he irst e4!han-e )e )ent on to )as Cryptonit*s )hi!h is a!tually -reat ne)s or us ,e!ause )e i-ured )e*d end up on the smaller e4!han-es irst the unheard-o ones. $eople @haveA heard o Cryptonit. #hen )e )ent on to Mirtual Curren!y 54!han-e( and no) )e are onto the Bit!oin 54!han-e )hi!h is the lar-est alternative !rypto!urren!y e4!han-e out there. #he only pla!e to -o rom there is really on to Mt. Go4 (lau-hs). #hat*s a lon- )ay o . $eople are still )aitin- to see Lite!oin -et on to Mt. Go4. @AdvertisementsA ABL: 5veryone +no)s that o line stora-e is the only sa e )ay to store your ,it!oins. <o) there is an easy( !onvenient and se!ure )ay to ma+e Bit!oin )allets or sa e o line stora-e. 'ith the sa e paper )allet +it you -et everythin- you need to print Bit!oin )allets usin- your o)n $C. Store them in a sa e deposit ,o4( your home sa e( or even your so!+ dra)er. Anythin- is more se!ure than +eepin- them online. Get your +it no) at sa epaper)allet.!om SM: 8ou*re listenin- to Let*s #al+ Bit!oin( the premier audio-!ast providin- ne)s and insi-hts that !over the rapidly evolvin- )orld o di-ital money. 9ur t)i!e-)ee+ly sho)s in!lude analysis( late ,rea+in- ne)s( updates on +ey te!hni!al( ,usiness and re-ulatory issues and in-depth intervie)s )ith the +ey people drivin- the ne) di-ital e!onomy. Let*s #al+ Bit!oin

o ers sponsors an attra!tive )ay to rea!h a tar-eted and savvy audien!e. %or more in ormation( email sponsorsIletstal+,it!oin.!om @NAdvertisementsA ABL: So( no)( outside o Lite!oin and Bit!oin is there any,ody else out there in this spa!e that you thin+ is really doin- an alt-!oin that is an impressive thin- and that is a,solutely doinit ri-ht7 PB: 6*ve al)ays ,een very impressed )ith Sunny :in-. 6 am not sure his real name or )here he is or any details a,out him( ,ut Sunny :in- he*s the !hap ,ehind $$ !oin. $$ !oin is the !oin that implemented proo -o -sta+e. #hat is su!h a -reat idea( it*s an idea that !ame up in the early days o Bit!oin( )here rather than re/uirin- miners to !reate ,lo!+s( !oins )ill !reate more ,lo!+s. 8our !oins )ill -enerate an additional 2H every year )hi!h )ill -enerate !oins )hi!h means you don*t need all the miners. 6 thou-ht that )as a really novel idea. 6t*s still... 6 thin+ it still has to prove itsel ho) pra!ti!al it is( ho) )orth)hile it is ,ut it*s a -reat idea and he*s done a -ood servi!e ,y ,rin-in- that out and allo) people to trial that. ABL: 8eah( it*s ni!e to see the innovation. 9ne o the thin-s it*s !riti!i?ed a lot a,out alt-!oin !hains( and 6*m not sure )hat the situation is )ith %eather!oin( is that they are o ten premined( and the ar-ument that )e usually here a,out )hy their pre-mined is ,e!ause it*s =the only )ay to in!entivi?e the development team to push or)ard ,e!ause other)ise miners )ould !ome in and o)n the )hole thin- and then the developer or development team has no sta+e in it and so they*re...> - so any)ays( that*s the lo-i! )e usually hear to .usti y pre-minin-. Does %eather!oin pre-mine and i so )hy and )hat*s the thou-ht pro!ess7 PB: <o )e do not pre-mine. 'e didn*t pre-mine. 6 thin+ pre-mine @is usedA /uite loosely no) to re er to all sorts o thin-s. #e!hni!ally( pre-mine is )here you mine a !oin ,e ore it*s released to the pu,li! so no,ody else !an mine it and .ust the developer is minin- it. #hat never happened. 8ou !an a!tually see )here 6 announ!ed %eather!oin 6 made the post here*s %eather!oin( every,ody start minin- it(> and i you ta+e a loo+ at the ,lo!+!hain e4plorer you !an see that the irst ,lo!+ )as mined a,out a minute and a hal ,e ore 6 made the post... a minute and a hal a ter 6 made the post (lau-hs)( sorry. <o( 6 announ!ed it and then minin- started a ter that point( so there )as no te!hni!al pre-mine. #he one !riti!ism that people level and say is still pre-minin- in their minds even thou-h it*s te!hni!ally not. 6t*s the a!t that the the di i!ult )as set very lo) )hi!h is somethin- 6 )anted to have - 6 )anted to -et a air num,er o !oins out there( ,ut also( yes( 6 )anted to ,e a,le to mine a !ertain amount or mysel relatively easily early on to use or ,ounties )hi!h is e4a!tly )hat 6 did. 6 mined )ith a OEO1 &adeon -raphi!s !ard )hi!h is a pretty de!ent sin-le !ard. 'ith that runnin-( 6 mana-ed to mine over the !ourse o the ne4t B days a 2B1(111 !oins )hi!h seemed li+e /uite a su,stantial amount to me( all o )hi!h )@ereA -iven out on ,ounties. 6 )as a Lite!oin miner rom ,a!+ in the day. 6 have !oins. 6 have money to ,a!+ me up i need ,e( and these %eather!oins to me it )as a ne) !oin. #hey didn*t have any value @andA 6 )anted to )or+ on -ettin- them value. 6 !ertainly didn*t e4pe!t them to -et the value they did so /ui!+ly. $erhaps 6 )ouldn*t have -iven all 2B1(111 a)ay (lau-hs) i 6 had reali?ed( ,ut yeah @6A put these !oins up or ,ounties ,e!ause )hen %eather!oin laun!hed there )as still so mu!h )or+

to ,e done. 'e did )e,site )or+( )e needed -raphi!s ,ein- doin-( )e needed to approa!h so many people li+e or stats pa-es( online !al!ulators( e4plorers( so idea )as let*s -et this ,ounty and start payin- people )hi!h is )hat 6 did and it )as.. it made it in!redi,ly popular ,e!ause so many people !ould ta+e part( ,e!ause 6 )as .ust -ivin- a)ay thousands o !oins at a time and that really -ot people enthusiasti!. Sin!e then( 6*ve !han-ed over Lite!oin to ,uy ,a!+ %eather!oin. <ot as many as 6*d have hoped. 6t )as a !ouple o days a ter.. a !ouple o days a ter it )as laun!hed 6 tried to ,uy a 211(111 %eather!oin )ith 21 ,it!oin )hi!h 6 thou-ht )as a phenomenal deal or a ne) !oin( and 6 thou-ht 6 )as ,ein- /uite -enerous @,utA people !ame ,a!+ to me )ith my o er o 21 ,it!oin and said no )e )ant B1 ,it!oin. ABL: (lau-hs) Hi-h e4pe!tations. PB: 8eah( ,ut that )as it. #he pri!e -ot pushed up and up and it too+ me a )hile ,e ore 6 !ould inally( really ,uy ,a!+ in. But 6 have some in my )allet no)( )hi!h 6 thin+ is ri-ht( ,ut it*s ta+en a )hile( and )e*re -oin- to ind a pri!e point ,e!ause the pri!e )as .ust pushed up so hi-h ,y these initial people. 'hi!h is )hy 6 )as so +een to see it -et on to an e4!han-e in the irst pla!e ,e!ause 6 i-ured )hen it -et*s into an e4!han-e )e*ll -et a air pri!e and that*s )hat*s happened it*s !ome do)n to a pri!e that people !an a ord and really -et in at )ithout )orryin- a,out ris+in- too mu!h. 6 thin+ the ,it!oin ri-ht no) ,uys D2(B11.. ,it!oin ,uys D2(B11( )hi!h is a ,ar-ain i you as+ me. ABL: (lau-hs) %air enou-h. #here are a lot o people out there )ho are interested in startintheir o)n alt-!oin !hains ri-ht no). Some o them have really innovative ideas( some o them are it sounds li+e they are loo+in- or somethin- that is more un a.+.a. easier to mine than the more mainstream !hains are at this point. #op pie!e o advi!e you !ould -ive them( )hat )ould it ,e7 PB: &eally( you have to loo+ or a ni!he( 6 thin+. 5ven i no,ody else sees it( that )as you +no)( 6 )ent or J times more !oin ,e!ause that*s )hat 6 )anted in my head. So( i you are enthusiasti!( you )ant to do this or some .oy it*s -otta ,e somethin- that you )ant( it*s -otta ,e a ni!he that you see that you !an really -et enthusiasti! a,out. 6 any,ody is -oin- to listen to this and start up a ne) !oin( my )ish list or another !oin is a!tually a ne) demurra-e !oin. Sorry to.. apolo-ies to %rei!oin there ,ut 6*d love to see a S!rypt ,ased demurra-e !oin. #hat*s the -ap 6 !an see. 6 am not -oin- to laun!h that !oin. 6 am never -oin- to laun!h another !oin a-ain. %eather!oin*s enou-h. 6 am ,ehind that( ,ut 6 )ould li+e to see a demurra-e !oin. May,e some,ody )ill hear that and ta+e me up on that. ABL: Some,ody )ants to -et involved in %eather!oin( )hat*s the ;&L and )hat*s the pro!edure7 PB: 6 you !ome to ))). eather!oin.!om on there you*ll see various tools. 6 you !ome to the orum( the orum*s a hot,ed o a!tivity. #his is )here )e or-ani?e our teams. 8ou !an see there*s teams or the pools( miners( tutorials( you -ot the artists are there as @areA people

@)hoA )or+ on e4!han-es( mer!hant servi!es is a very ,i- thin- ri-ht no)( there*s $&( -ames( and musi!ians. 'e*re really tryin- to pull in so many di erent people to loo+ at so many di erent aspe!ts. 'e need more people all the time. #he orum itsel has .ust -ot over a thousand mem,ers. 'e*re not that old. 'e*re in in an!y still ,ut )e*ve -ro)n so mu!h. 'e*re a,out to really ma+e a ,i- push. #his theme is )e are out to start !hasin- a lot o mer!hants @andA servi!es seein- )hat )e !an provide @andA )hat people need( ,e!ause a lot o the time you -o to these mer!hants and they say )e*d love to support you ,ut )e don*t have !ertain tools. #he -uys on the orum they*re -oin- out there( they*re spea+in- to the mer!hants( they*re indin- out )hat the mer!hants )ant( they*re relayin- that and that*s the sort o thin)e !an )or+ on providin-. 'e are a,out to -o )ith a press release( )e are hittin- K(111 radio stations( K(111 ne)spapers( 2(111 online ne)spapers .ust to try and -et the )ord out there. 'ith mer!hant adoption( eed,a!+ is !omin- ,a!+ or the need or %eather!oin !arts( or an A$6 or mer!hants( they )ant the art)or+( and our team is ,usy !reatin- all o this( and there*s room or more people. 8ou @!anA !ome alon- and spea+ to mysel or .ust spare the time - )e*ll ind )or+ or you i you really )ant to .ump in( ,ut .ust !ome alon-( !he!+ it out( see )hat )e*re up to( you !an see )e*re ,usy( you !an see )e*re very a!tive. 9ne !riti!ism 6 heard the other day is that )e*re tryin- too hard. 6 didn*t +no) you !ould try too hard( ,ut any)ay( )e*re really )or+in- hard to ma+e this )or+ or every,ody. ABL: 6 thin+ there*s a lot o suspi!ion a,out mar+etin- ri-ht no). 6t seems li+e a lot o !oins out there are... a-ain...your !oin no) doesn*t seem to have a tremendous num,er o advanta-es( ,ut it does have a!tive development( it does have a!tive !ommunity and you do have plans to develop it( so it*s almost... it*s )eird ,e!ause a lot o times )hen you thin+ a,out li+e Bit!oin( or e4ample( you*re thin+in- o+ay this is Bit!oin it*s -onna +eep -oin- up in pri!e ,e!ause o the de lationary aspe!ts that )ill play out over time( ,ut you*re not really loo+in- at it( you*re loo+in- or servi!es on top o it( not or the !urren!y to !han-e. 6t sounds li+e )hat you*ve told me here is that that is an in!orre!t assumption a,out %eather!oin. %eather!oin )ill ,e !han-in-( )ill ,e implementin- ne) eatures as time passes. PB: #hat*s ri-ht. 'e )anted to evolve. Certainly( 6 thin+ )e need to -et more a!!eptan!e out there. 'e -oin- to need to -et more adoption ri-ht no) ,e ore )e do anythin- else. 'e .ust )ent throu-h one hard or+. 'e don*t )ant to hard or+ a-ain. But there*s !ertain thin-s )e !an do and that*s implement ne) eatures into the !lient the "# !lient. #he "# !lient is very ,asi! that*s the -raphi!al user inter a!e o the )allet -- and there*s so mu!h )or+ that !an ,e done there that people are as+in- or .ust to ma+e it more o a !onsumer produ!t. 6t*s not parti!ularly riendly ri-ht no). 6t doesn*t ne!essarily -ive you a lot o in ormation either. "uite o ten( 6 have... 6 have all the in ormation in the )orld in my Bit!oin( Lite!oin( %eather!oin !lient( ,ut 6 still have to -o to e4ternal sites to ind out the in ormation rom that !lient li+e the ,lo!+!hain e4plorer. #here is so mu!h that !an ,e ,rou-ht do)n to stop people havin- to -o else)here or in ormation and .ust to ma+e it more aestheti!ally pleasin- even. $eople li+e that. ABL: 8eah. 'ell( $eter rom %eather!oin( than+ you very mu!h or your time. PB: #han+ you( Adam.

(short pause )ith musi! playin-) ABL: 6n the last episode o Let*s #al+ Bit!oin( )e tal+ed a,out the idea o runnin- #or nodes and ,ein- !ompensated )ith Bit!oin( so that made me thin+ o another pro.e!t )e*re -oin- to ,e tal+in- )ith the prin!ipals o a little ,it later in the month - 9pen Garden( ri-ht7 #his is a mesh net)or+( so ri-ht no) they don*t have any moneti?ation methods ,uilt in( and i you remem,er )ay ,a!+( and 6 thin+ it )as episode 3 or episode J o Let*s #al+ Bit!oin( 6 tal+ed )ith Foe Cas!io )ho in our !onversation mentioned that you !ould use automated Bit!oin payments mi!ro-transa!tions o Bit!oin payments to pay or your 6nternet servi!e ,ased on use rather than ,ased on a lat ee( and so the )ay that he envisioned this )as you*d have a mesh net)or+ setup )here there are people )ho run nodes - run routers that provide 6nternet !onne!tivity to any,ody )ithin the transmission ran-e o the thin-. &ather than havinto -et a lo-in and have an a!!ount( instead it )ould .ust ,e this proto!ol that says o+ay( )ell( you )ant to use the 6nternet so here*s your 6nternet a!!ess in e4!han-e or this either on a per minute or per hour or per ,its o data> - )hatever rate that it )as set up or on that lo!al server( and it )ould ,e as simple as a-reein- to that !ontra!t and then as lon- as you )ere usin- that net)or+ ,ased on )hatever those metri!s are it )ould pay in. <o) one o the thin-s that*s ,een ,rou-ht a,out this... this is also another thin- that has ,een tal+ed a,out or #or nodes( ,e!ause #or nodes are another one o those thin-s )here people provide it as a servi!e ,ut ,e!ause o the anonymity and ,e!ause o that )hole type o relationship there is no )ay to moneti?e it( so the people )ho run nodes or #or( )hi!h is a )ay that you !an anonymously a!!ess parts o the 6nternet and also anonymously a!!ess spe!i i! parts o the 6nternet that are only availa,le on that net)or+ - sometimes it is !alled the dar+ net - it*s hard to moneti?e that. #his is not a solution to that pro,lem( ,ut it*s a solution to a small part o it. #he pro,lem is that ,e!ause Bit!oin has transa!tion times( there*s no instant transa!tion( so i 6 )ant to use the 6nternet and 6*m tryin- to use one o these mesh net)or+ thin-s in the s!enario 6*ve des!ri,ed 6 have to )ait li+e B minutes or 21 minutes or a !on irmation or somethin- li+e that( ,ut )hat 6 )as thin+in- is( )hat i you too+ it the other )ay )hat i you e4tend the trust irst and then you say =o+ay ma+e this transa!tion no) ,ut as soon as the transa!tion has ,een made )hether or not it*s !on irmed(> you .ust -ive a!!ess and then B minutes later( 21 minutes laterP )hen the transa!tion !on irms( then you say 9: you !an +eep havin- a!!ess ,ased on this relationship )e*ve no) developed( ,ut even i the transa!tion !omes ,a!+ and it*s de!lined and no( that didn*t a!tually happen or it )as a+e or )hatever you .ust !ut o a!!ess at that point and there is no real loss to you( ,ut you*ve solved this usa,ility pro,lem that e4ists ri-ht no) )here you !an*t do these thin-s in other senses. <o) this )ouldn*t )or+ )ith a !up o !o ee ,ut or somethin- li+e runnin- a #or node or runnin- a 'i%i node )here !urrently there is no )ay to moneti?e it( this a!tually seems li+e it !ould ,e a )ay to trust ,ut veri y in the )ords o &ea-an. Am 6 missin- somethin- o,vious here7 AMA: 6 .ust love that you .ust /uoted &ea-an( that )as @unintelli-i,leA. (lau-hs all around)

SM: 6 )as thin+in- a,out that( too. AMA: 6 thin+ you are a,solutely ri-ht - the opportunities or moneti?ation are rather interestin-( and it*s very di erent i you*re loo+in- at a predominantly anonymous and desi-ned or anonymity and denia,ility and priva!y net)or+ li+e #or versus an open mesh net)or+ )hi!h is -eo-raphi!ally o!used( li+e i 6*m sharin- my 'i%i( there is no /uestion o )ho 6 am or )here 6 am ,e!ause you have to ,e )ithin 311 eet o my lo!ation to use it. %rom that perspe!tive there is opportunities to do other interestin- thin-s )hen you don*t !are a,out anonymity and that is you !an ,uild reputation systems( so you !an e4tend me a me-a,yte o data trans er and then have me pay it later( and i 6 am ,ein- an ass and 6 don*t pay or it( you*ll +no). So )ill the rest o the net)or+( or rather i 6*m -ood and pay or it( you )ill +no) and so )ill the rest o the net)or+( and so as a result( 6 !an -radually ,uild trust and reputation .ust ,y payin- my ,and)idth ,ills that are e4tended to me and as lon- as 6 +eep payin- those 6 ,uild more and more trust )hi!h !an e4tend me more and more ,and)idth. #here*s some really ni!e me!hanisms there that !an also use reputation and previous payment history to ,uild a lot o momentum ,ehind this. ABL: 6t*s not really a,out anonymity sin!e you*re name !ould ,e a Bit!oin address. 6t doesn*t really matter )hat you*re atta!hin- the reputation to( it only matters that )hatever it is has reputation. AMA: 'ell( yes( ,ut )hat you*re doin- there is asso!iatin- previous sessions to uture sessions ,e!ause you need to repeat that or you*re trust a!!ount or your ne4t session and )hat that does is that it taints ea!h o your ,and)idth sessions )ith the identity o the previous one. 5ven i that is a pseudonymous identity( you !ouldn*t do that on #or it )ould ,rea+ the entire model. 6t )ould mean that everythin- !ould ,e tra!ed ,a!+ to the irst time you paid ,e!ause your reputation )ould ,e li+e a !oo+ie that taints every transa!tion and tra!+s you or)ard. ABL: 'ell( it .ust sounds li+e in some situations you don*t )ant reputation. 6t sounds li+e in some situations li+e the #or one )here anonymity is( in a!t( the -oal( there( reputation is anathema to that. AMA: %or those you )ould really do somethin- li+e )hat you dis!ussed. More !har-in- on the honor ,asis )ith the understandin- that i you e4tend ,and)idth that*s not paid or it*s not a hu-e loss as lon- as you don*t do it too o ten. SM: 6 am tryin- to thin+ o )ays that some,ody !ould -ame that system potentially( and one o the )ays that 6 thou-ht o )as .umpin- on until they -et +i!+ed o and then si-nin- on as a di erent identity )hile their )aitin- to -et veri ied and so orth and... 6 don*t +no) ho) that !ould ,e prevented. 6 also don*t +no) i there*s anythin- mali!ious they !ould potentially do in that time that they are on( or perhaps they only need 21 minutes to do )hatever they*re -ointo do or )hatever ne arious thin-s they are -onna do (lau-hs). #hey only need 21 minutes o

a!!ess to )hatever net)or+ it is to do it. May,e those !ould ,e some !on!erns. AMA: Compare it to the !urrent state o a net)or+ li+e #or )here that*s all that*s happenin-. 8ou never +no). #here is no !uto . 5veryone*s anonymous. 5veryone*s usin- the ,and)idth or ree. 'hat is today the norm ,e!omes an ed-e !ase i you have a level o moneti?ation( and 6 )ouldn*t )orry a,out it. 6 you !an ta+e the norm o the and the most a,usive ,ehavior and turn it into an ed-e !ase you*re -ood( ,e!ause the rest o the moneti?ation opportunity you*ve opened up !reates all +inds o in!entives or !reatin- more #or nodes )hi!h solves the pro,lem. SM: 8eah( it*s a -reat point. ABL: %urther to that point( 6 )ould a!tually say that you !ould turn it around and say( )ell( a!tually i someone .ust has to do 21 minutes )orth o stu on( )hether it ,e a 'i%i net)or+ or not( it seems li+e so lon- as Andreas - as you said( that ,e!omes an ed-e !ase and most users are parti!ipatin- ,e!ause there is no real disadvanta-e to not parti!ipatin- i you are tal+in- a,out a !ouple o !ents per minute or ho)ever you )anted to do it. By ma+in- it really -ranular you !an ma+e it very ine4pensive and /uite reasona,le a!tually( and( a-ain( ,e!ause you are ta+in- models that have no moneti?ation in them at all and addin- or a )ay it to ,e easy and opt into that moneti?ation and providin- some sort o sti!+( ,e!ause ultimately ri-ht no) )ith that ree a!!ess you don*t -et +i!+ed o ,ut )ith this you -et +i!+ed o a ter the B minutes or 21 minutes or )hatever o the -ra!e period )here the transa!tion is e4pe!ted to -o throu-h then i it doesn*t -o throu-h then you .ust +i!+ them o at the end o that. 6t seems li+e... yeah... so... 6 am repeatin- )hat you said( Andreas. 6 thin+ 6 a-ree. SM: $erhaps there is some advertisin- ,uilt in their too durin- that -ra!e period or )hatever so at least i the person doesn*t pay then they*ve ,een e4posed to )hatever ad has ,een sho)n to them or )hatever. ABL: 6 thin+( yeah( a !ustom landin- pa-e !ould )or+. 6 thin+ you !ould -o too ar in that dire!tion. 'hen )e are at Bit!oin 0123( 6 )as on Marriott*s 'i%i( Hilton*s 'i%i( and those are airly honorary systems or the =!omplimentary> a!!ess and even then they didn*t... SM: 'ell( it )as provided ,y Mt. Go4. ABL: (lau-hs) 'ell( there you -o( 6 didn*t +no) that. SM: (lau-hs) 6 am sorry. #hat )as a mean .o+e. 6 .ust should !lari y that. So( 6 stayed at the Marriott durin- Bit!oin 0123 and there )as a paper at the ront des+ that said !omplimentary 6nternet provided ,y Mt. Go4( and my partner and 6 loo+ed at ea!h other and said =o+ay( it*s -oin- to ,e do)n a lot over the )ee+end( 6 -uess.> (lau-hs) But( no( they did provide !omplimentary 6nternet and that )as very ni!e. 6 appre!iate that.

ABL: 8es. AMA: 6 li+e your idea a,out advertisin- and you !ould ma+e some -reat in!entives li+e that so i you use it or 21 minutes and you don*t pay you -et Fustin Bie,er ads in.e!ted into your stream... ABL: (lau-hs) AMA: ...at )hi!h point you -o 6*ll pay( 6*ll pay( ma+e it stopC SM: 9h God( stopC (lau-hs) (short pause) ABL: So there is a ne) player in to)n that*s tal+in- a,out minin- e/uipment that per orms at a very hi-h level. #his is... a-ain !ontinuin- this thread a,out minin- innovation that )e*ve seen over the last L months( really( start to +i!+ in and lots o ne) AS6C manu a!turers !omin- out. So there*s a ne) one !alled Cryoni+s spelled C-&-8-9-<-6-:-S that has a line !omin- out !alled the Bit line( 6 ,elieve( and their irst one is the %rost,it. 'e*re not a!tually re!ommendin- that you ,uy these or loo+ at them seriously. #here*s a!tually... SM: But )e do have a ,rid-e to sell you i you are thin+in- a,out pur!hasin- one o those. (lau-hs all around) ABL: 8eah( yeah( this is... )e tal+ a,out shinin- e4amples and horri,le )arnin-s periodi!ally on this sho) and this is one that is still up in the air ,ut it really has all the ma+in-s to ,e a horri,le )arnin-. #hey*ve -ot hard)are that seems to de y physi!s. SM: (lau-hs) ABL: #hat doesn*t a!tually e4ist yet ,ut they have ni!e mo!+ups on it -reat loo+in- ,o4es )ith ans in it. 6t*s airly e4pensive. #hey*re o erin- ree shippin-. 9 !ourse( the produ!t doesn*t e4ist yet and( so( that*s one o those hallmar+s. More than anythin- else( it loo+s li+e the !ompany that*s ,ehind it a!tually t)o years a-o laun!hed a :i!+starter. <ot a similar produ!tG it )as also a hard)are produ!t. 6t )as a ;SB devi!e that )as se!ured in a me!hani!al lo!+. 6t*s this !ool-loo+in- thin-( loo+s li+e a Da Min!i !ode type thin-( and )al+ed a)ay )ith D011(111. #here*s a real temptation in this !ommunity ri-ht no) to loo+ at these

thin-s( to loo+ at ne) produ!ts !omin- out and say )o) that*s really -reat 6*d li+e to invest in that( ,ut there needs to ,e some s+epti!ism applied( so )e*re all puttin- on our s+epti!al hats here and )e*re -oin- to ta+e a little ,it o a loo+ at it. Stephanie you )ant to tal+ a,out this7 SM: 8eah( 6 try to +eep my s+epti!al hat irmly atta!hed to my head at all times and this one is no di erent. #here*s a!tually an e4pose on &eddit ,y a person named Ha!+Kor (lau-hs). Here she -oes throu-h and de,un+s point ,y point some o the thin-s that )ere in the :i!+starter or this %rost,it thin-. 9ne o them is that it !laims to use li/uid nitro-en to !ool the !hips that they use( ,ut to +eep nitro-en li/uid( and that*s at -K1 de-rees Celsius appro4imately( that re/uires a really an!y !ompressor and a lot o po)er )hi!h this does not appear to have in this ,o4 )ith ans in it. #hat )as a pretty eye,ro)-raisin- point 6 )ould say. #here*s also a !ouple o other thin-s that are pretty shady a,out this. #hey say on the %A" or this :i!+starter that they*ll ,e sellin- up-rades that )ill ena,le you to use it to mine Lite!oin( pro!ess video( and do other thin-s )ith it( ,ut AS6C !ir!uits are Appli!ation Spe!i i! 6nte-rated Cir!uits( ri-ht7 #hey are desi-ned or somethin- in!redi,ly spe!i i! and the S!rypt al-orithm( )hi!h is )hat Lite!oin is mined on( is very di erent then the SHA0BL al-orithm )hi!h is )hat Bit!oin is mined on( so really( it seems li+e you )ould need !ompletely di erent !hips to do those di erent appli!ations. AS6Cs are not really desi-ned to ,e un-i,le li+e that( so this loo+s very s+et!hy. 6t seems li+e they*re .ust tellin- people )hat they )ould li+e to hear and i it sounds too -ood to ,e true then it pro,a,ly is. AMA: Bit!oin is the ultimate non-reversi,le transa!tion and so !aveat emptor -- ,uyer ,e)are -- is a prime prin!iple )hen transa!tin- in ,it!oins. 6*ve ,een inspired ,y this to release my ne) produ!t !alled the $erpetuaMiner( and )hat it does is it ta+es the heat output o your minin- ri- and( usin- a Stirlin- en-ine( it uses it to po)er the ri- itsel ( and as a result !uts your ele!tri!ity !ost ,y a 211H( and you only need po)er to start it( and then you !an unpluit and it )ill then run on its o)n heat. SM: (lau-hs) AMA: #his is $erpetuaMiner !omin- soon( and 6*ll ,e sellin- those( o !ourse( on pre-order or ,it!oin )ithout re unds. SM: Ho) mu!h are you !har-in- or this( Andreas7 AMA: 6 don*t +no). 6t depends ho) -reedy 6 am eelin- that day may,e !ouple o hundred ,it!oin to start )ith yeah( 6 am -oin- to -et a really -ood desi-ner to ma+e a very an!y ,o4 )ith ,lue li-hts ,e!ause ,lue is in( and... ABL: Blue is ast( ,lue means ast. Let*s +eep that in mind. AMA: And !old. ABL: 8es.

AMA: 8eah( a,solutely so yeah( it*s -oin- to !ome in a antasti! ,o4 that*s ,een desi-ned ,y one o the desi-ners o the Maserati( and it*s streamline so it !an mine ast( it*s very aerodynami!( and on!e you -et it and reali?e it doesn*t )or+( )hen you thro) it out your )indo)( it )ill -o very ar. (lau-hs all around) ABL: 'e should mention this is a developin- story( and it loo+s li+e B#CBi,le.!om has a story up a,out it no)( and they*re in !ommuni!ation )ith the prin!ipals at the !ompany tryinto i-ure out i this is real or not( so there )ill ,e an update in a uture episode tal+in- a,out this( ,ut it*s .ust... it*s important to re!o-ni?e it that even i this is real( there are so many !laims ,ein- made( and so many o these thin-s( even in the !ase o Butter lyLa,s( even i you*re assumin- that they*re not a ,ad a!tor( and that they really did have -ood intentions )ith all the )ays they*ve -one a,out doin- thin-s releasin- various AS6C models. 8ou !an still .ust see that assumptions that are made at the ,e-innin- o the manu a!turin- pro!ess a lot o times ,y the time you -et to the end are .ust )ron-( and )hen you*ve sold units and made promises ,ased on those initial assumptions( it*s .ust a ,ad situation in -eneral )here( even i you do deliver the produ!t( you still have ailed as ar as your !ustomers are !on!erned( ,e!ause they didn*t -et )hat they e4pe!ted ,e!ause it !han-ed. SM: B#CBi,le has ,een in tou!h )ith the C59 o Cryoni+s and has re/uested a tester unit. #hey say they are -oin- to donate any pro!eeds rom the testin- to Sean*s 9utpost )hi!h is a Bit!oin-,ased homeless advo!a!y !harity )hi!h 6 thin+ is -reat. 6 li+e to see minin- test pro!eeds -oin- to Bit!oin !harities( so 6 am !urious to see i they ever re!eive it and ho) it turns out. AMA: As Saint Satoshi said( Qtrust( ,ut veri y.Q [Advertisements] SM: 'anna setup an online store that a!!epts ,it!oins7 Go to open,it!oinstore.!om and you !an have a store up and runnin- ,e ore the end o this messa-e. Fust enter your email address and the store name and in less than 31 se!onds you*ll have a se!ure 'ord$ress e!ommer!e site up and runnin- that a!!epts ,it!oins and pays you in !ash )ithin 0J hours( and ,est o all( it*s !ompletely ree. Go to open,it!oinstore.!om today and open or ,usiness no). (short pause) ABL: Let*s #al+ Bit!oin is heard ea!h )ee+ ,y thousands o people )ho are parti!ipatin- in the ne) di-ital e!onomy. 9ur listener ,ase o ,it!oin o)ners( miners( investors( te!hnolo-ists and mer!hants is -ro)in- ast. 'e o er a limited num,er o short advertisin- slots in ea!h sho) to +eep our listeners en-a-ed and to provide ma4imum impa!t or our sponsors. 6 you*d li+e to tal+ to us a,out Let*s #al+ Bit!oin( send us an email at sponsorsIletstal+,it!oin.!om. [/Advertisements]

ABL: #rue Bit!oin mi!ro-transa!tions have ,een on my mind or the last e) )ee+s( and )hile Bit!oin !ertainly sho)s promise or ena,lin- !ommer!e in )ays never ,e ore possi,le( at this early point development( there are still some ma.or pro,lems. %ees are ,ased on pertransa!tion ,asis and so very small transa!tions !an have outsi?ed ees )hi!h ,rin-s us ,a!+ to the $aypal pro,lem - ees too hi-h to .usti y the transa!tion in the irst pla!e. Listener Fusti!e )rote in a ter our last episode to tell me a,out mi!ro-,illin- - a proposed te!hni/ue to !reate a transa!tion ee redu!ed( pay as you -o ,illin- solution or( )ell( lots o thin-s. #o help me ill in the ,lan+s( Alan &einer .oins me this mornin-. Alan( ho) are you doin-7 AR: Hey( doin- -reat. ABL: 8ou +no)( 6*ve ,een readin- throu-h this thread on Bit!ointal+ rom a,out a month a-o. 6tRs !alled rapidly ad.usted mi!ro-payments and multi-si-N$0SH. 'hat does $0SH mean7 #hat*s the one thin- 6 don*t +no). AR: 8eah( $0SH is a me!hanism that )as introdu!ed to the net)or+ a,out a year a-o. 6t*s really not all that... it*s a deeper te!hni!al meanin-( ,ut the idea is that it ma+es it a lot easier or parties to e4e!ute multi-si-nature transa!tions and a!tually more !ompli!ated thin-s that you !ould do on the net)or+( ,ut other)ise mi-ht ,e ,ul+y or in!onvenient. $0SH is -enerally spea+in-( you !an .ust asso!iate that )ith multi-si-nature transa!tions. ABL: &apidly ad.ustin- mi!ro-payments and multi-si-nature transa!tions( so li+e 6 said the pro,lem is that as you -et do)n to these really( really( really small transa!tion levels - li+e one o the e4amples )e*ve ,een tal+in- a,out on the sho) is i you had li+e a mesh net)or+ router nodes that )ere providin- these lo!ali?ed 6nternet !onne!tions - a,le to ,e !ompensated on li+e a per +ilo,yte or per minute or per se!ond( even( rate - that doesn*t really ma+e sense to have a transa!tion -oin- every time that pin-s ,e!ause the transa!tion ees are too hi-h( so it seems li+e that*s the sort o situation that this te!hni/ue aims to solve. Can you e4plain ho) that )or+s7 AR: #here*s a!tually another reason )hy that*s in easi,le )hi!h is the )ay the net)or+ )or+s. All transa!tions ta+e 21 to L1 minutes or you to -et some !on iden!e that the transa!tion a!tually happened( and it doesn*t matter )hether that transa!tion is or a tenth o a ,it!oin or or a million ,it!oins( it*s still -oin- to ta+e the same amount o time or the net)or+ to rea!h !onsensus that a!tually happened( and )hile this )or+s very )ell in -eneral itRs o+ay or online orderin-( or ma.or settlement transa!tions ,et)een !ompanies and so orth( and there*s a lot o pla!es )here it does )or+( it really does inhi,it this mi!ro-transa!tion !on!ept ,e!ause you are not only payin- a ee( )hi!h normally is small ,ut is ,i-( relative to these mi!ro transa!tions( ,ut you also !an*t rely on sendin- lots o these mi!ro transa!tions every minute ,e!ause you need time or those to !onver-e in an hour. #he net)or+ isn*t )ell-suited in its simplest orm or these mi!ro-transa!tions( ,ut usin- the stu that you re eren!ed - the rapidly ad.usted mi!ro-payments - you are usin- a e4tension o Bit!oin that allo)s you to use some o the deeper eatures o the net)or+ - )e mentioned $0SH and multi-si-nature transa!tions - to !reate one transa!tion usin- the net)or+ as es!ro) and then revisin- that transa!tion over and over a-ain ,e ore it a!tually hits the net)or+. #he ni!e thin- a,out it is that ,oth parties !an see that this transa!tion that you are doin- is validG they have !on iden!e that this transa!tion )ould -o throu-h i it )as ,road!ast( and all you*re doin- is you*re revisin- that ,e ore it -ets ,road!ast - meanin- ,e ore it*s inali?ed - and that*s very !heap

you*re .ust sendin- them 011 ,ytes o data )hi!h is very small in the -rand s!heme o thin-s and ea!h one is very !heap or them to veri y - to see that it*s valid - so you !an +eep revisinthis( say( every se!ond( every minute( every +ilo,yte( )hatever you )ant( and they !an have !on iden!e that the last revision is valid. ABL: Both parties ,oth the one that is ,uyin- and the one that*s sellin- you !ould !all it li+e ele!tri!ity or somethin- li+e that i you are tal+in- a,out payin- or ele!tri!ity on li+e a +ilo)atthour level instead o payin- or it at the end o the month. At the ,e-innin- o the relationship you setup a !ontra!tual relationship throu-h this system that says that... oh( shoot( 6 am doina ,ad .o, o tryin- to simpli y this. AR: 8eah( 6*ll -ive you a -ood analo-y or it. ABL: $lease do. AR: Lets say 6 -o to the ,an+ and 6 try to e4e!ute a )ire trans er( and this is a )eird )ire ,e!ause it*s a!tually -oin- to t)o people( ,ut 6 -o to the ,an+ and say 6*d li+e to trans er D01 and 6*d li+e D21 o that to ,e )ired to you and D21 o that to ,e )ired to my other a!!ount... ABL: 9+ay. AR: ...and that 6 )ant that )ire to -o throu-h in the ne4t ive days. ABL: 8es. AR: #hey*re -oin- to !har-e me a ee or that )ire( and it*s not ri!tionless it ta+es time( ,ut in the ne4t ive days 6 !an !all the ,an+ and say QHeyC 8ou +no) )hat a!tually )hy don*t you send Adam D22 and send me DE instead - .ust !han-e the num,ers on that )ire(Q they !an do that - the )ire hasn*t a!tually -one throu-h yet 6 haven*t ,een !har-ed a ee all 6 have done is 6*ve revised that - so i 6 )ant to -ive you another dollar 6 .ust send another messa-e to the ,an+ that says =HeyC A!tually( !an you revise that ,e ore it -oes throu-h and send him D20 and me DK>. 9ther)ise ea!h one o those transa!tions or a dollar )ould ,e -ettin- sent over the )ire and assessed a ee and ta+e time( ,ut ,y doin- it this )ay you !an instantaneously .ust !han-e the num,ers )ith your authori?ation and the rest o the net)or+ doesn*t have to see that. ABL: #he ,an+ that )e are tal+in- a,out that )ould a!tually ,e !ondu!tin- this is the ,lo!+!hain7 AR: #he ,an+ is the net)or+. ABL: #he ,an+ is the net)or+. AR: Holdin- your 01 ,u!+s and sayin- that it is -oin- to send it on in the ne4t ive days... ABL: 9+ay. AR: ...,ut it*s not inali?ed yet and you have a !han!e to revise it ,e ore it a!tually -oes out and in this !ase the ,an+ is allo)in- you to revise it )ithout a!tually !har-in- you or it.

ABL: 9: and so in the system )e are tal+in- a,out you*ve -ot the person )ho is doin- the pur!hasin-( you*ve -ot the person or the or-ani?ation or )hatever that*s doin- the sellin- and then they*re .ust ne-otiatin- )ith ea!h other. #hey*ve already -ot this a-reement and it*s .ust the di eren!es the /uantity that ea!h one )ill ,e sendin- versus re!eivin- and then at the point that it*s inali?ed it*s ,road!ast to the ,roader Bit!oin net)or+ as one transa!tion ,ased on )hatever the inal settlement )as( is that ri-ht7 AR: #hat*s !orre!t( and .ust or re eren!e( it !an -o ,oth )ays. 6 no) you o)e me DB 6 !an !all the ,an+ and say QHeyC lets revise it a-ain and send Adam DK and me D20.Q ABL: 'hat i 6 disa-ree )ith that7 Ho) does that )or+7 6s this entirely ,ased on rules )here it*s also an advan!e7 AR: 6n that !ase( the analo-y is allin- apart ,e!ause you )ould need your authori?ation on that too. #he analo-y isn*t per e!t in that !ase( ,ut on the Bit!oin net)or+( the release o that money it does re/uire ,oth my authori?ation and your authori?ation( and )hen 6 de!ide 6 )ant to -ive you money( 6 si-n a ne) version o the transa!tion that*s avora,le to you( and )hen you )ant to -ive me money( you si-n a ne) version o the transa!tion that*s avora,le to me )hoever has -ot that last version !an si-n it and ,road!ast it. ABL: 'hen you*re sayin- the last version( you mean the last version that pre era,le to ,oth parties7 AR: 5a!h time you issue one o these revisions( that supersedes all the previous ones and the net)or+ is !apa,le o re!o-ni?in- that one transa!tion !ame a ter the other and it*s -ot rules in pla!e to say... to ,e a,le to re!o-ni?e )hi!h one is the last one. 6 you try to ,road!ast the last one that*s avora,le to you ,ut not the a!tual last one( then 6 !an ,road!ast the last one )hi!h 6*ll pro,a,ly ,e doin- any )ay. #he net)or+ )ould say that one is the !orre!t one. ABL: 9ne o the interestin- parts a,out this( that 6 ori-inally( )hen 6 )as readin-( 6 thou-ht )as onerous ,ut no) it*s startin- to ma+e a little sense to me( is that this relationship re/uires !ollateral ,ein- put at ris+ ,y ,oth parties( so even i you are in this relationship )here you*re ,uyin- po)er rom the po)er !ompany in order to ma+e this )or+ in a )ay )here every,ody is in!entivi?ed to play ,y the rules ,oth sides )ind up puttin- up !ollateral. Can you e4plain the thou-ht pro!ess ,ehind that7 AR: #here is multiple )ays to do it and i you are -onna have a t)o )ay relationship )here 6 mi-ht ,e -ivin- you money and you mi-ht ,e -ivin- me money then( yes( ,oth sides have to put money in. 9ne o the ni!e thin-s a,out this te!hni/ue - the rapidly ad.usted mi!ropayments - is that( rom the moment that the !ontra!t is started - that relationship is initiated even i ,oth parties died or lost their +eys( or )hatever( the transa!tion )ill !omplete. #he last revision )ill ,e a!!epted ,y the net)or+ and every thin- )ill ,e returned( so 6 put in 01D into this transa!tion( 6 should ,e usin- ,it!oins( 6 put 01 ,it!oins into this a-reement and the )ay that )e do this dan!e )ith si-nin- transa!tions and a-reein- on ho) they loo+ and ho) it )or+s i )e do nothin- else( that 01 ,u!+s is .ust -onna !ome ,a!+ to me. 6tRs only i )e de!ide to move more money( to e4!han-e money( that )e )ould revise that( ,ut lu!+ily the )ay it*s setup there*s not a!tually a ris+ o someone losin- money there as lon- as the dan!e is done properly( there is a ,it o !ommuni!ation that the !lients have to do to set this up( and

it may involve ,oth sides puttin- money in( ,ut the out!ome is the same( )hi!h is that money is al)ays -onna -o ,a!+ to the 0 parties you*ve insured that ,y the )ay that you*ve set-up the transa!tions . ABL: 'hen )e tal+ed last time( )e tal+ed a,out multi-si-nature transa!tions and )e tal+ed a,out ho) that )as somethin- that*s -oin- to ,e ma+in- its )ay into Armory over the ne4t months and year( 6 suppose( in a variety o orms( is this the sort o thin- that )ill )ind up in a !lient li+e Armory or is this somethin- that*s entirely separate7 AR: #his is somethin- 6*d really li+e to support( ,ut the !omple4ities o it are -onna re/uire some !are to implement - te!hni!ally implement it !orre!tly - and also you +no) ma+e an inter a!e that*s reasona,le( ,ut it is somethin- that 6*d really li+e to see. %or instan!e( one o the appli!ations o it( )hi!h is one o my avorite appli!ations( is i you*ve ever spent a lot o time loo+in- at say #he <e) 8or+ times you*ll ind that you*ll hit your 21 pa-e limit( 6 thin+ itRs <e) 8or+ times( you hit a 21 pa-e limit and then it says you !an*t ,ro)se any more unless you pay or a su,s!ription. 8ou ,ro)se ne)s everyday and you don*t mind settin- up an a!!ount )ith #he <e) 8or+ #imes and they !an literally !har-e you per pa-e that you vie) or per arti!le( and they don*t have to !har-e you a lot it !ould ,e 2 !ent per pa-e( and the ni!e thin- is that these revised versions o this transa!tion !an ,e sent alon- )ith the pa-e re/uest so )hen you say 6 )ant to vie) this arti!le - )hen you send that re/uest or that arti!le( you also send them the revision the transa!tion that sends them 2 more penny. 6tRs as se!ure as it !an -et. ABL: 'hat*s the do)nside7 AR: 'ell the do)nside is that this doesn*t... 6 -uess it*s not a do)nside it*s more o a limitation - the situations in )hi!h this is appli!a,le re/uires t)o parties that have a persistent relationship )ith ea!h other. 6n this !ase( you are initiatin- a relationship )ith #he <e) 8or+ #imes and that*s a persistent relationship. 6t*s not li+e -oin- on eBay( indin- someone and you do a one time transa!tion. #his )ouldn*t ,e a very use ul me!hanism or one-use transa!tions ,et)een t)o untrusted parties. #he idea is that i you*re -oin- to ,e doin- lots o transa!tions( espe!ially lots o very small inter!han-es )ith someone( then this )or+s and it )or+s very( very )ell( ,ut it*s not the thin- )here you !an send a 211 di erent people a penny on!e - there is no ,ene it there. 6n that !ase( you have to send out a 211 transa!tions and pay the ees on those. ABL: 6t seems to me li+e it turns the transa!tions rom ,ein- a,out the transa!tions instead o ,ein- a,out the num,er o re!ipients( ,e!ause i you !an ta+e any ar,itrary num,er o transa!tions and re!+on them into a sin-le transa!tion then the only limitation is ho) many people you are sendin- to. AR: #hat*s( that*s a!tually very a!!urate and or re eren!es it*s a!tually t)o transa!tions. #here is the initial transa!tion )hi!h puts the money into the es!ro) into the net)or+ and then the last transa!tion is the last revision( so the relationship ta+es one transa!tion to setup and one to settle. ABL: 6n this s!enario )ith #he <e) 8or+ #imes( do 6 have to trust the #he <e) 8or+ #imes( or is the relationship pretty mu!h .ust on autopilot ,ased on our initial a-reement7

AR: <o( you don*t have to trust #he <e) 8or+ #imes. #here*s ,een a little ,it o de,ate a,out ho) thin-s !ould possi,ly -o )ron- i there*s - 6 shouldn*t even mention it ,e!ause it*s pretty remote - ,ut there is a little ,it dispute o )hether it*s truly 211H trust-less or .ust very( very !lose to trust-less. 6t does share that property that you don*t have to trust the other person no matter )hat they do( you !an al)ays ,road!ast the last version o the transa!tion and that*s -onna settle the ,alan!e( and there is nothin- the other party !an do to !ompromise that. ABL: Alan 6 don*t a!tually +no)... 6 didn*t a!tually see any posts rom you in this thread ho) up on this are you7 6s this somethin- you*ve ,een )or+in- on7 AR: 6 am intelle!tually in tou!h )ith it - itRs somethin- that - 6 really li+e the !on!ept and 6 loo+ or)ard to doin- it one day in Armory - ,ut it*s not my hi-hest priority. Fust -ettin- re-ular multi-si- inte-rated is one o my hi-h priorities and then this !an ollo) a ter that. #he issue is that multi-si-nature transa!tions ,y themselves are -oin- to have /uite a ,it o implementation !omple4ity and ma+in- it usa,le to re-ular people. 6mplementin- this )ould ,e even more so( so it*s not the irst step - it*s a !ouple o steps do)n the line and there is lot to do ,e ore that - ,ut it*s somethin- a,solutely that 6 )ant to ena,le and ind a )ay to ma+e it a!!essi,le ,e!ause it is a!tually very po)er ul tool in the Bit!oin tool set. ABL: 8ou tal+ed a,out the di i!ulties and .ust the !omple4ity( is there any thin- in parti!ular that is .ust a pro,lem that needs to ,e solved that is holdin- up this type o development or is it more .ust that there are so many thin-s and .ust some,ody needs to thro) a lot o time at it7 AR: 6t*s more the latter o )hat you said. 6tRs a matter o resour!es and people )ho have the ,a!+-round and the +no)led-e to understand ho) it )or+s te!hni!ally under the hood and a!tually implement it into an environment that it ma+es sense. 6 thin+ there is a lot o people @)hoA understand this and !ould theoreti!ally )rite some s!ripts - ind )ays to use it on their o)n - ,ut a!tually produ!in- a solution in a pie!e o )allet so t)are li+e Armory or Bit!oin "# )ith an inter a!e that doesn*t re/uire understandin- the -uts o the proto!ol - that*s -oin- to ,e di i!ult - and in order to implement that you .ust need the resour!es o people )ho are intune )ith the te!hni!al side o Bit!oin and )ith so t)are )or+ @thatA !ould -o into @developinthisA. #here*s a lot o neat and u-ly aspe!ts o it under the hood( ,ut at a hi-h level vie)( the )ay that( 6 -uess( =re-ular users> )ould ,e a!!essin- this( that*s )hat they need to +no). 6t does allo) you to setup this relationship and you !an do so trustlessly. 6t is one o these( 6 don*t )ant to !all this a solution( ,ut it*s somethin- that really ,ene its the net)or+. $eople !omplain a,out the hi-h transa!tion volume and is it -onna s!ale( )ell( this is somethin- that really ,rin-s do)n that transa!tion volume and it doesn*t have to ,e hard to use( ,ut it*s -ointo ta+e some time ,e ore it -ets there. ABL: Alan &einer( than+ you very mu!h or your time. AR: 8up( than+s or havin- me Adam. ABL: #han+s or tunin- in to episode 2B o Let*s #al+ Bit!oin. 'hether you li+ed( loved( or hated the sho)( )e )anna +no) )hat you thin+. $lease send all !omments( /uestions or o ers to help to mailIletstal+,it!oin.!om. 6 you li+ed )hat )e are doin- and )ant to support us )ith Bit!oin or Lite!oin donations( please visit letstal+,it!oins.!om or episode-spe!i i! addresses. 6 you*ve -ot a /uestion you*d li+e ans)ered on air !all us at 2-KBB-'5-#AL:-

B6#C96<. #han+s to Andreas M. Antonopolous( Dr. Stephanie Murphy( #homas 9*Brien( Mi!hael Me-an( $eter Bushnell( Gavin Andresen( and Alan &einer or providin- !ontent or this episode. Musi! or this episode )as provided ,y Fared &u,ens. %or more in ormation a,out the musi! )e use in and the open sour!e artists )ho !reate it( please visit ))).letstal+,it!oin.!omNmusi!. Stay tuned or episode 2L !omin- up %riday the 2Jth o Fune eaturin- more dis!ussion and intervie)s. #han+s or listenin-.

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