Participants: Adam B. Levine (ABL) Host Andreas M. Antonopoulos (AA) Co-host Stephanie Murph (SM) Co-host Bradle !

e !ansen (B!) "ree#an$in%.or% editor "ar&od Hashemi ("H) Correspondent ABL: Hi' and (elcome to )Let*s +al$ Bitcoin', a sho( -or users ne( and old ocr ptocurrencies and the $in% o- them all: Bitcoin. Comin% up on toda *s sho(: ./S e0chan%e Bit-loor -orced shut )can e0chan%es even e0ist in the /S1, .2hat is "inC34' and (h it*s the #i%%est threat to Bitcoin (ith Bradle !ansen o"ree#an$in%.or%. .Listener 5uestion (h don*t people sell Bitcoins -or credit cards or Pa pal1 . 6t*s all a#out perspective (hen (e #rea$do(n s(itchin% -rom #itcoins to mili-#itcoins. .Butter-l La#s: a tale o- promises #ro$en and the lessons o- dealin% (ith volatile currencies. .6s minin% causin% %lo#al (armin%1 .Andreas ta$es on 7ru%man and #rin%s the heat. And -inall ' correspondent "ar&od Hashemi tells us a#out #ur in% treasure (ith our mind. 8isit us at Letstal$#itcoin.com to su#scri#e -or -ree to our t(ice (ee$l sho(. M name is Adam B. Levine' 6*m a (riter and spea$er (ho li$es to e0plain complicated topics and understanda#le terms. +hat*s reall the purpose o- (hat (e*re doin% here' ta$in% the complicated issue a#out cr pto%raphicall secured mone and helpin% people see (hat it could mean in their o(n lives. !oinin% me in our 5uest -or clarit are Andreas M. Antonopoulos and 9r. Stephanie Murph . SM: Hi. AA: Hello. ABL: +han$s -or #ein% here' ever #od . SM: 6*m reall e0cited to #e here. AA: :reat opportunit . +han$ ou' Adam. ABL: :lad to have some assistance in this sort o- impossi#le 5uest that (e*ve #een #ar$ed on. So' %ettin% ri%ht into the ne(s' (e*re recordin% this at ;;:;< AM paci-ic time on the =>rd o- April' =?;>. +he top stor o- (here 6 sit is the recent closure o- the /S e0chan%e Bit-loor. +he released this statement a -e( da s a%o' 5uote: )6*m sorr to announce that due to circumstances outside o- our control' Bit-loor must cease all tradin% operations inde-initel . /n-ortunatel ' our /S #an$ account is scheduled to #e closed and (e can no lon%er provide

the same level o- /S9 deposits and (ithdra(als as (e have in the past. As such' 6 have made the decision to halt operations and return all -unds. @ver the ne0t da s' (e*ll #e (or$in% (ith all clients to ensure that ever one receives their -unds. Please #e patient as (e processed our re5uest., and itAs si%ned Boman' (ho (as the President o- that compan . +his is a #i% deal' not necessaril #ecause o- their si&e #ut #ecause this is another /S e0chan%e that is #ein% closed -or $ind o- reasons that don*t seem to #e #usiness related. AA: -And don*t seem to #e Bitcoin related. @nce a%ain' it*s all a#out the -riction #et(een' ou $no(' (onder-ull -le0i#le Bitcoin and le%ac currencies that are reall di--icult to deal (ith. SM: 6 (as reall e0cited a#out Bit-loor and 6 had a #unch o- -riends (ho (ere startin% to use it' and people li$e it a lot #ecause the (ere doin%' (hat (as it1 ?.; percent' a commission on trades' (hich is insane' ou can*t -ind it an (here and it (as relativel eas to %et mone into it via this Capital @ne peer to peer trans-er. -But' 6 %uess it (as too %ood to #e true' at least accordin% to the /S %overnment (ho*s %ot this insane mone launderin% re%ulations that*ve Cust #een reall ratchetin% up over the last couple o- ears. ABL: -So' do (e thin$ that there is an space in the /nited States -or an e0chan%e that isn*t %onna run out these pro#lems1 @r do (e Cust thin$ that e0chan%es should Cust stop -unctionall operatin% in the /S1 AA: 6 a#solutel thin$ that e0chan%es can operate in the /S' and not onl are other e0chan%es operatin%' D#utE can #e accessed. A %ood e0ample: one could sa coin-#ased is another one' ne( ones are openin% at the same time (hen (e*re seein% a couple o- ne( ones #ein% -unded' includin% one that*s 8enture Capital pac$. 6 thin$ it*s de-initel a di--icult re%ulator environmental (or$in%' #ut i- ou do our re%ulator home(or$ and persisted it' there*s a reall e0cellent opportunit -or pro-it. ABL: -So' it*s that (hat (e thin$ then1 +hat Cust Bit-loor didn*t do the re%ulator home(or$ and #ro$e some rules that the didn*t $no( a#out and so that resulted in this1 -Because' $ind o- the (a that 6 (as readin% it' it seemed li$e Bit-loor (as actuall one o- a more a#ove #oard' ou $no(' the *re operatin% in 4e( For$ (hich has a lot ver strict anti-mone launderin% that are even #e ond the -ederal scope. 6 understand that more e0chan%es can start up' #ut (hat*s to sa that the thin% that stopped Bit-loor (on*t stop Gem all. AA: 4othin% much. 6 mean' the main pro#lem is that these re%ulations are not ver clear and their en-orcement is not ver consistent' so 6 mi%ht %oes -ar usin% the (ords ar#itrar and capricious. SM: 6 thin$ people are reall scared' especiall those (ho are sort o- more inside the le%ac #an$in% s stem' the *re reall scared o- runnin% a-oul o- these re%ulations and so the Cust %ot out o- the (a ' #end-over #ac$(ards to compl ' and $inda scre( their customers. -And 6 thin$ people (ho are interested in Bitcoins reall ' ma #e don*t have some o- that -ear or don*t have that impulse' and the *re in Bitcoin #ecause the (ant to o--er people #etter alternative to dealin% (ith the le%ac #an$in% s stem. -So' ma #e that*s Cust one o- the pro#lems that an Bitcoin e0chan%e (ould run up a%ainst. -And as Andreas said that re%ulations are so va%ue that the can essentiall #e #rou%ht on an one' so 6*m not -eelin% ver optimistic a#out /S #ased e0chan%es' e0cept ma #e ones that even more decentrali&ed in $ind o- peer to peer' li$e ou $no(' meetin% up (ith people via LocalBitcoins or -indin%

some $ind o- local merchants that people can #u -rom' so it spreads out the ris$ o- all a #unch o- people. AA: 2ell' ma #e there*s also t(o aspects o- this' one is doin% all our home(or$ in advance such DasE chec$in% all the #o0es' ma$in% sure ou -ul-ill all the re%ulations. +he other one is actuall #ein% prepared -or (hat happens (hen "inC34 or someone else decides to shine a spotli%ht on ou and that means havin% the la( ers to -i%ht this' and -i%ht this vi%orousl in court' so (hen the shutdo(n one o- our #an$ accounts ou -ile temporar inCunctions' ou appeal the closure' ou open another #an$ accounts' ou have our la( ers -i%htin% ever step o- the (a ' and this is not one o- those thin%s (here ou preparin% i- all %oes (ell' all %oes (ell' other(ise ou*ll Cust -old. A part o- this has to involve a -i%htin% spirit' and ou $no(' la(suits in the /S are part o- doin% #usiness' so ou should #e prepared -or them. SM: 6 don*t thin$ an one e0pects this Spanish in5uisition' #asicall (hat*s comin% do(n on them. 6 mean it*s millions o- dollars to compl (ith these anti-mone launderin% statutes and 6 $no(' #ut instead o- havin% a hell o- the time even thou%h the *re ma$in% a lot o- pro-it' some o- them Cust are reall hard to predict and people are startin% (ith ver little start-up capital even thou%h there*s a %reat pro-it opportunit in tradin% #itcoins and 6 thin$ it*s Cust reall di--icult to #e prepared -or it. ABL: 6 thin$ it*s hard -or an #od to sin$ a su#stantial amount o- mone into #itcoin ri%ht no( i- ou are a serious pla er. 6- ou don*t have an thin% to lose then it doesn*t reall matter' #ecause ou $no(' DtheE (orst case scenario is ou*re %onna %o #ac$ to (here ou*re started. -But i- ou*re an e0istin% institution and ou step into this am#i%uous arena' it reall seems li$e it*s Cust dan%erous territor . AA: 2ell' 6 thin$ Pa pal -aced a lot o- the same issues (hen it -irst started up' and had a lot scrutin -rom re%ulators and mana%ed to persevere and ma #e the da s o- doin% that are over and it*s a lot harder no(. -But' perhaps pro-essional investors and lar%er or%ani&ations comin% into the mar$et can (ithstand that $ind o- scrutin . Perhaps e0chan%es are not reall a %ame -or startups in this space and ou reall need to #e e0perienced. 6- ou onl have a small amount o- capital and a small startin% #ase' ma #e e0chan%es isn*t a %ood idea. SM: 6t is %ettin% harder #ecause these re%ulations are %ro(in% # the minute' 6 don*t $no( iou %u s have heard the suspicious activit reports #ut the *re #asicall li$e this mone launderin% $ind o- reports' (here i- some#od deposits a lar%e amount o- cash in a #an$ account -or instance' or i- the tr to trans-er more than H;?'??? either into or out o- the /S. 6t tri%%ers the suspicious activit report' so called' and the person ma not even $no( that the have one o- these attached to their name #ut the *re #ein% investi%ated # the 9epartment o- !ustice. -And there are millions o- these -iled ever sin%le ear and the $eep increasin% ever ear' most people don*t even $no( that*s happenin%' so the re%ulator climate de-initel is %ettin% #i%%er. -And 6 also Cust (ant to mention a#out Pa pal' 6 mean at (hat cost to them and to the service that the provide have the complied (ith these re%ulations1 -Because 6 $no( a lot o- people (ho had #een dissatis-ied (ith Pa pal the (a it is no( compared to ho( it used to #e. +he *ve #een -ree&in% people*s accounts' 6*ve had personal e0perience (ith that actuall (ith the #usiness that 6*m part o-. Fou $no(' the loc$ed do(n the -amous 2i$ilea$s* account and there have #een a lot $ind o- hi%h pro-ile cases o- this. -So' 6 thin$ Pa pal had #ecome a $ind o- slave to the e0istin% le%ac #an$in% s stem or not that much di--erent than traditional #an$s. -So' 6 thin$ that*s somethin% that Bitcoin users ma not #e (illin% to do to #ecome sort o- part o- the esta#lishment.

AA: +here*s a shoc$in% iron here and somethin% that should concern us all' (hich is apparentl the re%ulations don*t appl to the lar%er -inancial institutions' the can do prett much (hatever the (ant. -And there*s no such suspicious activit report (hen ou steal #illions or crash the econom . +here seems to #e a cate%or o- too #i% to -ail on one end' on the other end there seems to #e a cate%or -or too small to succeed' and that*s reall shoc$in% ri%ht no( #ecause on the one hand the small companies are #ein% penali&ed -or activit that has nothin% to do (ith an o- these crimes that the *re loo$in% -or' (hile the #i% %u s are %ettin% a(a (ith the' (ith hal- all o- massive scale' it*s 5uite shoc$in%. ABL: 6t*s actuall a %reat lead in -or the intervie( 6 did this mornin% (ith Bradle !ansen' (here #asicall (e tal$ed a#out undissected the "inC34 re%ulations an one over a lot o- the histor and (e touch a lot o- these issues in more detail .#ac$%round music. B!: D6*mE Bradle !ansen' 6*m the director o- the senate -or "inancial Privac and Human Bi%hts' and in a previous li-e 6 (as Bon Paul*s le%islative sta--er -or #an$in% monetar issues' and 6 edited a ne(sletter -orecastin% -orei%n e0chan%e rates as m -irst Co# out o- colle%e. ABL: Ho( did that %o1 B!: 6t (ent (ell until the recession came and 6 need to' (ell' 6 %ot laid o--. ABL: @$a ' 6 thou%ht it ma$es sense. Fou*re also the editor -or... B!: "ree#an$in%.or%' es. Feah' it*s a %roup #lo% o- most o- the promenade -ree #an$ers' Larr 2hite' :eor%e Sel%in' Steve Hor(it&' and others. ABL: 2hat*s the elevator speech -or ho( someone (ould de-ine themselves as a -ree#an$in% advocate1 B!: +he *re not -ans o- central #an$in%. ABL: As the editor o- "ree#an$in%.or%' ou*re (ritten a -e( articles recentl on the "inC34 %uidelines. Can ou tell us (hat "inC34 is and (hat their -unction is1 B!: Feah' "inC34 is the -inancial crimes en-orcement net(or$. 6t*s a #ureau (ithin the treasur department. 6t*s sort o- a vault (ithin the treasur to help the net(or$ on -inancial crimes and then (as made administrative a%enc under the /SA Patriot Act. +he reason -or havin% "inC34 is to en-orce the anti-mone launderin% la(s -rom the Ban$ Secrec Act. +he Ban$ Secrec Act (as passed in ;IJ? as part o- the 4i0on*s (ar on dru%s. +he ar%ument #ein% is mone launders -rom the dru% trade (ere (al$in% in (ith' ou $no(' du--le #a%s -ull o- cash and dumpin% it on the counter and depositin% it at the #an$s. -So' the ar%ued i- (e passed the Ban$ Secrec Act' the mone (ould dr up -or the dru% (ar and then $ids (ouldn*t have opportunities to #u dru%s on the streets an more. "ort ears later' 6*m not sure that' that ar%ument reall carries the same (ei%ht than it did then' and ou need to %o #ac$ and re-e0amine this. +here (ere some other reasons (h the ar%ued the needed to pass the Ban$ Secrec Act' part o- that (as the access to records -or ta0 -raud and cheatin% on our ta0es' thou%h -ort ears later (e still have a lot o- pro#lems (ith -inancial -raud and (e still have pro#lem (ith people cheatin% on their ta0es. Another reason that*s not much

discussed' that (as ar%ued on the house -loor' is that in ;IJ? it (as ille%al -or Americans to o(n monetar %old. Fou can still use %old -or our dentistr and reli%ion and other purposes #ut not as a monetar instrument. Some Americans (ere %ettin% #an$ accounts in S(it&erland' (here the S(iss* -ranc (as tied to %old. +he /S +reasur ar%ued that #ecause oAmericans (ere ille%all o(nin% %old' (e needed to pass the Ban$ Secrec Act to stop them -rom doin% that. @- course' the ne0t ear 4i0on closed the %old (indo(' and a -e( ears a-ter that (e pro%ressivel re-le%ali&ed the o(nership o- monetar %old and then also the use o%old clause contracts. So' those Custi-ications -or the Ban$ Secrec Act are %one. ABL: -So' no( the name Cumps ri%ht out o- me (hen ou sa Ban$ Secrec Act' 6*m thin$in% that it means' ou $no(' that it*s ena#lin% #an$in% secrec #ut it sounds li$e it*s actuall the opposite o- that -rom (hat ou*re tellin% me... B!: 2ell' it*s actuall Anti-Secrec Act. 6n -act' there (ere couple o- supreme court decisions' #ecause the #an$ers and their customers and others challen%ed the Ban$ Secrec Act' the cases (ere consolidated under the Cali-ornian Ban$ers Association versus Shult&. +he Cali-ornian Ban$ers ar%ued that the had a common la( o#li%ation to protect the con-identialit o- their #an$in% customers in-ormation -rom third parties. +he ar%ued that the had a contractual o#li%ation #ased on the si%nin% up o- accounts and the re5uirements osharin% in-ormation that the had esta#lished (ith their customers. -And the ar%ued that there (ere e0plicit e0pectation o- privac under the Cali-ornia state constitution: that -or all o- those and other reasons' the Ban$ Secrec Act violated their o#li%ation to protect the privac o- their customers. Lon% stor short' #ecause o- that decision and /S versus Miller' the court #asicall -ound that it (as premature to ar%ue that (e had an e0pectation o- privac (ith in-ormation (e share (ith the third part ' and the punted it #ac$ to Con%ress in the J?*s. Con%ress has never properl pic$ed it up' (e*re Cust no( sort o- dealin% (ith the pandora*s #o0 that the opened up' (hich is (hat (e called the +hird Part 9octrineK ou have no e0pectation o- privac (ith in-ormation that can #e shared (ith the third part . -So' i- ou (rite a chec$ and our #an$ cast it and noti-ied (ith the other #an$ in order to clear the other accounts' ou can*t e0pect that in-ormation can #e held private. All o- this %oes #ac$ to the Ban$ Secrec Act and this is the mission o- "inC34. -So' a%ain' "inC34*s #een around in some -orm or another as it evolved in order to en-orce the Ban$ Secrec Act. 6n the ;II?*s' (e had a #i% development in cr pto%raph ' the sharin% o- in-ormation over the internet and a lot o- technolo%ical advances on privac in encr ption and other developments. @ut o- that primordial oo&e this developed cr pto-#an$in% movement and a lot o- other alternatives. Pa pal (as the most -amous e0ample o- the alternative currenc movement that #e%an then' #ut the -ederal re%ulators came do(n ver hard on Pa pal #ecause people had resources in their Pa pal accounts' and the -eds #asicall -orced them to stop #ein% Cust a pa ment s stem and to #ecome a depositor institution' "96C insured' (ith other rules and re%ulations that come (ith all o- the rest o- #an$s and -inancial institutions. 6n addition to that' there (as another pa ment s stem called e-%old' that (as one o- the most success-ul othe electronic commodit mone approaches. And that (as the "inC34 that shut do(n the e%old compan . +he ar%ued that it (as in violation o- the Ban$ Secrec Act' (as a haven -or mone launders and other people that (ere tr in% to s$irt the la(' and #ecause the (ere in violation o- the Ban$ Secrec Act' "inC34 had them shut do(n. 2hat (e have seen no( is a similar opportunit -or ne( electronic currencies o- (hich Bitcoin is the most success-ul. -And a%ain' (e*re seein% "inC34 (rapped up their resources and -ocused their attention on emer%in% pa ment s stems. +he most li$el result o- this is %oin% to #e a repeat (hat (e sa( under Pa pal and e-%old. 3ither the *re %oin% to -orce them to chan%e and #ecome depositor re%ulator institutions and stop #ein% a pa ment s stem' or "inC34*s %oin% to set their si%hts

on them as the have (ith Bitcoin' and (e*re %oin% to see prosecutions' and (e*re %oin% to see possi#l the death o- the emer%ent pa ment s stem. ABL: 9o ou thin$ that*s (hat*s in the cards -or Bitcoin1 @n the one hand it seems that "inC34 is reall -ocused on disclosure and Bitcoin $ind o- ma$es it hard to do that. -But' at the same time as ou said' the -orced Pa pal to #ecome somethin% the $inda (eren*t' do ou thin$ that (as a %ood thin% or #ad thin% -or Pa pal and -or its users1 B!: 6 thin$ the lesson -rom the I?*s (as that ou either #ecome (hat "inC34 (ants ou to #e or ou*re not %oin% to #e. ABL: 9oes that still appl in the case -or somethin% that is decentrali&ed li$e Bitcoin1 -GCause a%ain' (ith e-%old comparison' there (as a structure there' there (as a compan that -unctionall ran that and so that the (ere a#le to #e tar%eted. 6s that...it seems li$e it*s di--erent (ith Bitcoins. 9o ou thin$ it*s di--erent1 B!: 6t is clearl di--erent and "inC34 reco%ni&es it*s di--erent' (hich is (h the put up the recent %uidance. "inC34' the other re%ulators are all tr in% to %ra# all (ith the ne( technolo%ies' peer to peer net(or$s' and the decentrali&ed pa ment s stem developments. 6 don*t $no( ho( it*s %oin% to un-old' #ut 6 do $no( (hat the histor has #een' and 6 do $no( that "inC34 hasn*t chan%ed on ho( the approach these issues. ABL: So' ta$in% it in a -ace value #ased on (hat the *ve said so -ar' (hat is "inC34*s plan -or Bitcoin1 B!: 6 have heard throu%h the %rape vine that "inC34 has prosecutions in the (or$s -or Bitcoin' #roadl spea$in%' m %uess #ased on the timin% o- the %uidance and (hat 6 had heard previousl throu%h the rumor mill a#out the prosecutions is that "inC34 put up the %uidance sort o- e0 post -acto in order to Custi- the prosecutions that the *re a#out to launch. ABL: -So ou e0pect this to happen (ithin the ne0t couple o- months #ased on that timeline1 B!: A%ain' 6*ve heard di--erent rumors so it*s di--icult to predict' #ut eah' (e $ne( that DtheE prosecutions (ere in the (or$s and then later the %uidance came out' it*s seems sort o- a CFA approach o- ho( the *re doin% it. ABL: 2hat do ou thin$ that*s %onna do to Bitcoin and do ou thin$ that it*s %onna have a lastin% impact or somethin% that*s transitor 1 6 mean' (e haven*t reall seen an sort ore%ulator action in the space et' so it seems a little up in the air a#out the impact. B!: 4o' it*s a %reat 5uestion' that*s the 5uestion that all o- us are as$in%. 6 don*t $no( that an o- us have a -irm ans(er. +here a lot o- di--erent (a (here this could %o' 6 thin$ it #ehooves Bitcoin communit to stand up and reco%ni&e (hat the challen%e is -rom "inC34 and understand that histor . -And a%ain' re%ulator %uidance is meant to clari- issues' so that people $no( (hat is (ron% (hat is ri%ht that the can stand at the ri%ht side o- the la(. +he %uidance that the issued here seems' in some respects' to #e muddled mess and raised more 5uestions than it ans(ered. +here (ere also 5uestions that' in the %uidance' the e0ceeded their statutor authorit # ma$in% rules #e ond the scope o- the intent o- Con%ress. -And a%ain' 6 thin$ there needs to #e a dialo%ue #et(een representatives o- the alternative currenc

movement (ith the re%ulators Cust to (or$ out some o- these 5uestions' #ut as lon% as the *re not tal$in% (ith each other' (e $ind o- $no( (hat to e0pect #ased on "inC34*s histor . ABL: 2ith that same histor in mind' 6*m Cust tr in% to -i%ure out ho( the reasona#l impact Bitcoin i- there isn*t an centrali&ed point o- contact1 Li$e ou*re sa in%' ou*re sa in% that' ou $no(' the communit as a (hole needs to inter-ace (ith the -inancial re%ulator (hich -unctionall (hat "inC34 is. -And to' ou $no(' (or$ (ith that essentiall put to%ether somethin% that is #etter than (hat the (ould do i- the Cust do somethin%' unilaterall # themselves (ithout involvin% the communit ... B!: -@r at least have thin%s (here the understand (hat the de-initions mean and understand (hat the terms mean and understand (hat their responsi#ilities are' and "inC34 (ould have a #etter understandin% o- (hat their %uidance (ould mean in a practical (a in the real (orld. ABL: -So' ou thin$ that the -undamentall the don*t understand the impact o- (hat the *re %oin% to do' #ecause the don*t have enou%h education on the topic' the don*t have enou%h e0perts (ho have reall ... B!: "inC34 has a mission and the *re (or$in% to -ul-ill their mission' and their mission is not to understand Bitcoin' their mission is to stop -inancial crimes. ABL: Bi%ht. -So' -rom that perspective one o- the other thin%s that the reall -ocused on is AML or Anti-Mone Launderin% activities. Fou $no(' 6*ve #een loo$in% at Bitcoin' a%ain' -rom that perspective' -rom the perspective o- someone (ho e0ists in the current currenc paradi%m' and loo$s at this thin% that has no centrali&ed structure' 6 mean' doesn*t it all loo$ li$e mone -launderin%' ho( do ou tell (hat*s #ad and (hat*s %ood -rom re%ulator stand point1 B!: Bitcoin %ot a lot o- pu#licit -or appealin% to people that (e*re tr in% to %et around the la(. Sil$ road in #u in% dru%s or other ille%al paraphernalia that attracted the attention o- the re%ulators. "rom "inC34*s perspective' i- ou*re tr in% to stop -inancial crimes' and this is a tool -or -inancial crime' it is somethin% that (arrants their attention. ABL: -So' do ou thin$ that the *ll succeed1 6 mean' do ou thin$ it*s possi#le to succeed in this scenario -or them1 B!: A%ain' 6*ve %iven ou their histor . +he *ve #een the sin%le #i%%est -actor -or stompin% out currenc competition' -rom m perspective. ABL: 6 %uess the thin% that 6 %et #ac$ to' it seems li$e i- ou*re %oin% to loo$ at this -rom the re%ulator stand point' there has to #e some entit that can #e re%ulated' and 6...loo$in% at Bitcoin' 6 don*t reall see ho( that (or$s. -So' ou*re sa in% that the *ll stomp it out' that the can stop it out Cust # sa in%' ou $no(' that this doesn*t (or$' it*s ille%al' or... B!: "inC34 (as a#le to stop currenc competition (ith technical innovations in the I?*s even #e-ore their e0panded po(er under the /SA Patriot Act. -And (hat (e*ve %ot no( is "inC34 on steroids (ithout clear restriction -rom Con%ress' and it*s a -ailure o- Con%ress to do its Co#. 2e $ne( that these %uidelines and these prosecutions (ere in the (or$s even last

Con%ress. Bon Paul (as the chairman o- the house su#committee that had Curisdiction over "inC34' and he never had a sin%le hearin% on this. Con%ress has dropped the #all. ABL: 2h is that do ou thin$1 B!: "or a lot o- people these are relativel o#scure 5uestions. ABL: -So' ou Cust thin$ it*s a %eneral' so man thin%s to (orr a#out that this is lo( on the totem pole relativel spea$in%1 B!: 6 mean' Con%ress is a representative #od that (or$s to meet the demands o- their constituents. +heir constituents are demandin% a #alanced #ud%et or %un control or immi%ration re-orm or somethin% else' those are the issues that ou deal (ith. ABL: -So' it*s Cust too small o- an issue to have #een enou%h cause -or concern' and especiall in the Con%ress (e have -or the last' ou $no(' -ive or so ears doesn*t seem li$e too much has #een done in %eneral on an thin%' much less these smaller niche issues. B!: 2ell' o$a ' #ut ou also need to understand' 6 mean' loo$ at the %un control as an e0ample. +he proponents o- the :un Control Bill (ere ar%uin% that I? percent o- the people (ere -avored o- (hat the *re tr in% to do' #ut it (as a small' dedicated' vocal' ener%i&ed' and or%ani&ed communit that (as a#le to stop them. -And i- that does not descri#e (hat*s happenin% (ith Bitcoin' 6 don*t $no( (hat does. ABL: -So' ou thin$ that the maCorit in this case (ould #e in -avor o- this t pe o- -inancial competition or -reedom that (e*re tal$in% a#out here. -And that it*s Cust a small %roup o- ver entrenched interests that have a total' it cannot happen -rom their perspective. 6s that (hat ou*re sa in%1 B!: 4o' 6 thin$ ou %ot it #ac$(ards. 6 thin$ most people don*t understand (hat Bitcoin is' (hat it does' or (h do ou need an alternative to -ederal reserved notes' #ut it*s not a ver important issue to them. 6t*s not somethin% or%ani&ed' it*s not somethin% the *re %onna put hold' political donations a#out or %et active on. @n the -lip side' those people that are interested in' are usin% Bitcoin and other alternative currencies' do have a vested interest in #ein% a vocal dedicated or%ani&ed and ener%etic minorit o- the issue. /n-ortunatel ' the *ve not #een so et. ABL: -So' last 5uestion. @ne o- the common thin%s ou hear in the Bitcoin communit a#out these recent %uidelines issued # the %overnment is that #asicall is %ood ne(s' #ecause on the one hand the *re ac$no(led%in% it and sa in%' ou $no(' that this is somethin% that le%itimate enou%h to' ou $no(' -or us to tal$ a#out -rom re%ulator stand point. -And on the other hand' the impression is that the *re treatin% it li$e' 5uote )2orld o- 2arcra-t :old', (hich is to sa that in %ame currenc ' (hich is to sa not a real currenc ' (hich is to sa the *re not reall re%ulatin% it. 9oes that rin% true to ou1 B!: 6 thin$ it*s ver clearl a mi0ed verdict. @n the one hand' re%ulator clarit (ould #e a %ood thin%' and the reco%nition point is (ell ta$en. @n the other hand' (e did not %et the re%ulator clarit that 6 thin$ (e need -rom a %uidance -rom "inC34. -So' that am#i%uit ' the possi#le overreach -rom the Administrative Procedures Act and some other issues' ma$e the

situation more cloud and that is %onna lead to a lot o- con-usion (hich 6 thin$ could #rin% a#out Bitcoins demise. ABL: Bitcoins demise1 -So' ou thin$ the could -ail1 2hen (e*re tal$in% a#out that' do ou mean that the particular currenc Bitcoin could -ail or (e*re tal$in% a#out cr ptocurrenc in #road sense1 B!: 2ell' 6 mean' ou used Bitcoin as the e0ample' so re-erencin% that. 6- the perception comes out throu%h la( en-orcement' that an one (ho uses Bitcoin and also uses the /S dollar' and potentiall trades Bitcoin -or a dollar' receives Bitcoin -or pa ment' and then pa some#od else in dollars' i- the *re not (or$in% e0clusivel (ithin a Bitcoin environment' then the *re %oin% to -all under certain re%ulator procedures and certain re%ulator de-initions that the *re %onna re5uire prior re%istration' re%ular -orms' and approvals' and ithe *re not doin% that' the *re %oin% to %o to Cail. -And i- the start arrestin% people (ho are usin% Bitcoin and usin% dollars' potentiall under con-used %uidance' es' (e can see the end o- Bitcoin. ABL: 6 $no( 6 said that (as the last 5uestion' #ut 6 %ot a -ollo(-up -or ou. -So' the pressure point' the place (here it loo$s li$e the have all o- the levera%e in this relationship -rom a re%ulator standpoint is (hen people (ho accept or create' ou $no(' or mine' Bitcoins' chan%ed them into local currenc ' in this case (e*re tal$in% a#out /S dollars. 9oes this appl i- ou don*t convert them into /S dollars1 2hat happen i- some#od Cust decides to completel e0ist' ou $no(' in receivin% Bitcoins' sendin% Bitcoin ecos stem' never touchin% another currenc 1 B!: @ne o- the -e( thin%s that is clear in the %uidelines is that i- ou stic$s e0clusivel in a Bitcoin (orld' ou don*t have to -ollo( the same re%istration re5uirements and reportin% re5uirements to "inC34. -But 6 assume these people also re5uired to pa ta0es. ABL: Feah' 6 mean' that assumption seems to #e there #ut doesn*t there need to #e reco%nition o- it as a...this is somethin% that 6*ve #een tr in% to do Gcause 6*m involved (ith a num#er o- Bitcoin #usinesses that are %ettin% started' and one o- the thin%s (e $eep runnin% up a%ainst is ho( do (e value Bitcoins (e receive1 9o (e use that as a cost #ases1 -And then i- (e sell them at a hi%her value at later point a-ter (e received them' is that a capital %ain transaction1 2e*ve #een tal$in% to la( ers and no#od reall have an thin% to sa a#out it. 9o ou thin$ that is %onna %et cleared up at an point in the near -uture1 B!: 6t should had #een cleared up in the %uidance #ut it (as not. @n the ta0 side' there are a lot o- multinational companies that deal (ith multiple currencies all the time: /S dollars' the 3uro' S(iss "ranc' !apanese Fen' the -ile their ta0es and other reportin% re5uirements' even in a multicurrenc plat-orm. +he "inC34 %uidance should have' -rom m perspective' clari-ied those 5uestions that Bitcoin valuations those $inds o- reportin% should -ollo( the same plat-orm that the do -or other reco%ni&ed currencies. +he did not. -So' this is one othose e0amples (here the %uidance should have clari-ied the 5uestion' (here the actuall made it (orse. ABL: Put oursel- in the shoes o- "inC34 -or a second. 3ver thin% that*s happened to this point' has happened to this point. 2hat do ou do ne0t a#out Bitcoin1 B!: 6 #elieve that the *re continuin% their (or$ on current prosecutions.

ABL: -So' (e*re Cust tal$in% court cases. Are (e %onna esta#lish precedents1 6 mean' is that the %oal here1 6*m Cust tr in% to -i%ure out (hat their motivation -or these actions. 6t seems li$e ou said that the made the situation less clear' not more clear (hen the intention is to ma$e the situation more clear. B!: 2ell' their intention is to stamp out -inancial crime' and i- criminals are usin% Bitcoins -or crimes then itAs somethin% that the should #e %oin% a-ter. 6 mean' 6 see a need -or the alternative currenc people to #e (or$in% to%ether' and then also liaisonin% (ith "inC34 to adCust some o- these 5uestions to #rin% more clarit on #oth sides. 6- other people see that need' the should send donations to' via the "ree#an$in%.or% site' actuall interested in this tr in% to help ou %u s and 6 don*t see an #od else reall steppin% up to the plate (here the #i%%est threat to Bitcoin comes. ABL: 2hen ou sa ) ou %u s', (hat (ere ou tal$in% a#out1 B!: People (ho are interested in alternative currencies. +here*s a lot o- people (or$in% on encr ption' and a lot o- other parts that are reported -or success-ul alternative currenc ' #ut the #i%%est threat is %oin% to come -rom "inC34' and 6 don*t see an #od else (or$in% on that. ABL: 2ell' than$s -or Coinin% us toda ' Bradle ' to help $ind o- clari- this o#viousl ver complicated and counter intuitive issue. 6- ou*d li$e to support Bradle *s (or$' ou can visit "ree#an$in%.or% and donate to them there. .advertisin%. If I showed you a website where you could easily purchase electronics from the worlds largest distributor with Bitcoins at zero percent markup, would you think it was too good to be true? Good news, its real and its at Bitcoinstore.com. Choose from half a million items, sa e money o er !mazon and "ewegg, and con ert your Bitcoins to real world items. #ou can e en buy with pri acy. !ll they need is a shipping address, but dont take my word for it, see for yourself at Bitcoinstore.com. ABL: 6 reall enCo ed m conversation (ith Bradle and 6 have to sa 6*ve alread invited him #ac$ as he has an thin% else he (ants to tal$ a#out. Fou $no(' tal$in% throu%h these comple0 issues ta$es a lot. Fou have to reall have a comprehensive understandin% o- the issue and then to a#le to put it into (ords that the avera%e person can understand. A #i% part o- (hat ma$es re%ulation and le%islation in %eneral so hard to understand is the (ords that the use are o-ten Cust (a too complicated -rom (hat the *re actuall tr in% to sa ' and so ou (ind up (ith $ind o- t(o sets o- lan%ua%e. @ne lan%ua%e is le%al lan%ua%e' and one lan%ua%e that*s' ou $no(' -or ever #od else that ou can actuall understand. +hat (as -un. "rom the listener mail#a%' (e have an interestin% 5uestion' 5uote )2h hasn*t an compan ta$en the ris$ o- allo(in% users to #u Bitcoin via de#it or credit cards1 6 understand the (hole char%e#ac$ thin%' #ut 6 (ould at least thin$ someone (ould*ve tried to #u no( or come up (ith a more -ull proo- (a o- doin% it. @#viousl ' (hoever -i%ures this one out is inline to ma$e some serious cash., 2hat do ou thin$' Andreas1 2h hasn*t this #een tried1 AA: 2ith %reat re(ard comes %reat ris$' and the listener*s ri%ht sa in% that there*s serious cash involved here #ut there*s also a ver serious ris$' and it*s not Cust a char%e#ac$ ris$. -So' i- ou loo$ at the inter-ace #et(een Bitcoin and national currenc ' that*s (here most o-

di--iculties arise. -And it reall shines a spotli%ht on the (ea$nesses o- the traditional currenc s stems and pa ment s stems. -So' char%e#ac$ ris$' (hat is that1 2ell' i- ou receive mone -rom Pa pal or credit card or an o- the other traditional pa ment s stems' ou don*t actuall %et the mone . 2hat ou %et is a tentative promise that ou (ill %et the mone over a period o- time' and durin% that time the sender can reverse that transaction. +hat applies to ACH transactions under the 4ACHA rules' it applies to credit card transactions under the 8isa Mastercard rules' and it also applies to (ire trans-er' surprisin%l . -So' there are lots o- (a s ho( a sender can reverse a transaction and #asicall leave ou holdin% the #a%. @n the other side' ou*re %ivin% out Bitcoin. Bitcoin is irreversi#le and %uaranteed. +he moment ou have si0 con-irmations' and honestl 5uiet a #it #e-ore that' Gcause it*s di--icult to do a dou#le spend even (ith &ero con-irmations' that mone *s %one. -So' i- ou*re a merchant ta$in% in uncertain mone on one end and %ivin% out certain mone on the other end' ou*re e0posin% oursel- to a lot o- ris$. +hen ou*ve %ot the possi#ilit oour account #ein% -ro&en or closed on the /S side or the national currenc side as happened to Bit-loor (e Cust discussed. -And o- course then' (hen ou open a (indo( #et(een the initial char%e that ou ta$e in and the actual pa ment o- Bitcoin' it*s a#out a J to ;? #usiness da (indo(' that means ou receive the mone and ou*re not %uaranteed to hold it -or at least J da s' so ou have to (ait. 9urin% that time' the price o- Bitcoin ma chan%e dramaticall . 6- ou assi%ned the price o- Bitcoin #ased on the -irst da ' ou s(allo( all the ris$ o- the Bitcoin ou*ve purchased. 6- ou don*t' ou have to purchase Bitcoin in advance' and li$e $eep stoc$in% Bitcoin' that causes all the pro#lems' and %enerall ' it e0poses ou to a lot o- -luctuation. +hen our 8isa' Pa pal' Mastercard' or other merchant account ma #e closed' and those rules are prett ar#itrar and capricious too. +he ma decide that (hat ou*re doin% is a%ainst the terms o- service' shut ou do(n' and reall ' ou have ver little recourse to %et our account #ac$. A lot o- this is reall driven #ac$ # the anti-mone launderin% re%ulations (e Cust tal$ed a#out' and o- course that e0poses ou to even more ris$' #ecause i- ou are under investi%ation o- an o- these mone launderin% re%ulations' almost immediatel one o- the -irst thin%s that happen is our account*s %ettin% -ro&en' (hich then leaves ou a holdin% enormous lia#ilities to our customers and a #unch o- mone ou can*t touch. -And i- that*s not enou%h' i- ou reall do #ecome success-ul at this endeavor' ou*re %onna have a lot o- mone %oin% in and a lot o- mone %oin% out' and an enormous volume o- cash-lo( to our or%ani&ation. +he tiniest hiccup on either the inputs or the outputs (ill leave ou (ith either a ver lar%e amount o- mone -lo(in% in' or (ill leave ou (ith a ver lar%e de-icit #ecause the mone isn*t -lo(in% an (here ou need it. -So' all o- these thin%s ma$e it ver comple0' ver ris$ -rom operational perspective' a le%al perspective' and the -inancial perspective. SM: Feah' 6 reall appreciate ou perspective on that' Andreas' #ecause 6 actuall have the same 5uestion (h no#od hasn*t started this et1 -But that ma$es a lot o- sense' a#out there Cust enormous amount o- ris$ involved. 6t does sound li$e Cust as (e*re tal$in% a#out a little #it earlier in the sho(' some#od (ould have to #e alread a prett lar%e entit (ith a lot ola( ers on their side to underta$e this' and so -ar (e haven*t seen an #od step up (ho*s %ot the po(er. AA: A %ood e0ample o- this is reall (hat (e*re seein% (ith some o- the e0istin% services that are transactin% cash or currenc -or Bitcoin - those services are tr in% to address each one o- these ris$ areas individuall . "or e0ample' Bitinstant (hich is one o- the or%ani&ations used 5uiet a lot' is usin% mone orders and cash transactions throu%h Mone %ram' that reduces their input ris$. -But the *re still havin% maCor pro#lems (ith cash-lo( in e0treme %ro(th and tr in% to Cust to handle one o- those -ive pro#lems that 6*ve mentioned is a -ull-

time Co# -or that compan . B the time that compan is a#le to handle all o- these pro#lems simultaneousl ' the *ve pro#a#l %ro(n 5uiet a #i% si&e and that*s not an eas endeavor. ABL: 9o ou thin$ (e*ll reach a point (here (e can see real -inancial institutions actuall start to ena#le these transactions1 -GCause it seems li$ea compan li$e Bitinstant' or reall almost an o- the companies that are popped up over the last couple o- ears' the *re more li$e stop %aps' (here the *re sa in%' )@$a ' this is somethin% that the le%ac s stem #an$ doesn*t (ant to en%a%e (ith the ne( #an$in% s stem' so (e*ll #e the #rid%e essentiall #et(een them., -And then ever time the %et s5uished' ou $no(' ever time the %ot pushed out o- the #usiness' so ou $no(' pressure is applied it*s #ecause the #an$in% s stem has decided that the *re no lon%er (ant to deal (ith this middleman' and the *d Cust rather not have the #usiness at all. 6 mean' that*s ho( it all loo$s to me -rom the outside. 6s that an accurate re-lection1 AA: 6ndeed' the are #rid%es. -And eventuall 6 thin$ re%ular -inancial institutions (ill #e Coinin% the %ame. At the moment' (hat (e*re seein% is that all o- the on-ramps and o---ramps into and out o- the Bitcoin econom represent the steepest areas o- di--icult or the lar%est ine--iciencies. -But i- ou are an entrepreneur' ou loo$ at ine--icienc and ou see opportunit . -And 6 thin$ in the end' this is a continuous #alance i- ou li$e. People are loo$in% at this and sa in%' o$a ' does the re(ard e0ceed the ris$1 4ot 5uiet et' not -or me' #ut at some point' (hen the re(ard does e0ceed the ris$ on a certain t pe o- compan and the Cump in and (ill -ill this mar$et. +hese $inds o- ine--iciencies can*t %o on -orever (ithout someone ta$in% advanta%e o- them. ABL: 6*ve heard this descri#ed #e-ore in the conte0t o- the prisoner*s dilemma (here even ias a (hole #an$in% s stem doesn*t (ant to en%a%e (ith Bitcoin #ecause it $ind o- moves their monopol on currenc ' at the same time there*s an enormous incentive -or them to #u in earl ' so that as it continues to appreciate i- it succeeds' the *ll stand the %ain -rom that too and it*s a sort o- a thin% (here -irst one that #u s in has the' ou $no(' the lo(est price #ecause non o- the other #an$s are in' and then # addin% in the *re essentiall addin% the demand (ithout addin% the suppl . -So' 6 mean is this' are (e Cust at a point o- e5uili#rium ri%ht no( (here no#od (ants to ma$e the -irst move and then as soon as some maCor institution ma$es the -irst move is %onna start a cascade1 AA: 6 thin$ there*s a deeper pro#lem than that' Adam' 5uiet honestl ' and that is that ou*re assumin% that -inancial services institutions have incentives to innovate. -And the don*t' -inancial institutions don*t have incentives to innovate and in -act' a lar%e part o- our econom has no incentives to innovate #ecause ta$in% e0istin% mone -lo(s' tappin% into them and leechin% o-- the pro-it or securiti&in%' a%ain and a%ain and a%ain' the same stu--' and addin% more and more levera%e' is clearl much more pro-ita#le than ma$in% real thin%s innovatin% or investin% in real companies' and that*s the main pro#lem in our econom ri%ht no(. A part o- (hat (e*re seein% is the re-lection o- the #an$s or ma$in% -ar more mone essentiall as rent see$ers on mone streams' and that $ills innovation. SM: Feah' ri%ht on. AA: +a$e that #an$ers. .#ac$%round music.

ABL: 2ith onl =; million #itcoins in circulation at the point (here (e stop essentiall create #itcoins' there*s #een a lot o- tal$ a#out (hat*s %onna happen to transaction si&es as the value o- #itcoin %oes up. @ne o- the chec$s that*s #uilt into the Bitcoin s stem is the a#ilit -or people' on an individual #asis' to chan%e ho( the loo$ at the Bitcoins that the have and the receive. -So' ou can loo$ at #itcoins as #itcoins (hich is the ;.?. Fou can loo$ at the #itcoins as mili-#itcoins. Fou can loo$ at #itcoin as micro-#itcoins' (hich are seven decimals or -ive decimals' some#od correct me here... SM: 6 thin$ it*s si0' ri%ht1 -GCause mili-#itcoins (ould #e three decimal places and then micro-#itcoins (ould #e si0 places' #oth o- them are -actors o- a thousand. ABL: Let*s %o (ith that' math is not m stron% suit here. -So' no( that (e essentiall reached ;?? dollars in the #itcoin value' (e startin% to tal$' )2ell' o$a ...should (e s(itch the (a (e loo$ at them to mili-#itcoin1, +hat (ould then ta$e that ; #itcoin at' ou $no(' ;?? dollars or more' and essentiall ta$e it do(n to a#out ; penn per mili-#itcoin1 -So' DdoE ou %u s thin$ it*s time -or that1 6s this prett mature1 9oes it even matter i- (e decide as a comprehensive #asis1 SM: 6 thin$ the mar$et (ill -i%ure it out' honestl . 6 mean' ever thin% a#out Bitcoin is decentrali&ed' and so ho( to re-er to them' ho( to denominate them is another thin% that 6 thin$ is also %oin% to #e decentrali&ed. 6 mean' even (ith mili-#itcoins' people are pronouncin% it di--erentl ' the *re ta$in% di--erent names -or them. 6 remem#er readin% a pa%e on the Bitcoin 2i$i' li$e a couple o- ears a%o actuall ' a#out (hat the di--erent -ractions o- #itcoins should #e called' and even then there (ere several di--erent proposals. 6 do thin$ there is sort o- a ps cholo%ical o#stacle or ps cholo%ical thin% that comes into pla (hen people thin$' )2o(' ; #itcoin is (orth over ;?? /S dollars. 6- 6*m %oin% to donate to some#od ' do 6 reall (anna %ive them ; #itcoin that*s more than 6 (ant to %ive' #ut 6 don*t (ant to %ive ?.?; #itcoins' that seems a little #it stin% ' (hat do 6 do here1, 6 thin$ that havin% di--erent denominations (ould help people $ind o- overcome that ps cholo%ical #loc$ - even 6*ve had it #e-ore. 6 mean' (hen 6 (anted to ma$e a donation or pa -or somethin% and (anted to have li$e a nice round num#er that (as over ;' #ut ou $no(' 6 %uess that*s not the case. -And' ma #e 6*m used to Cust usin% /S dollars' ma #e that*s (h that comes in. +here*s the dollar store that ri%ht the popular thin% in the /S (here ever thin% costs ; dollar' or it*s in multiples o- ; dollar #ut not ver e0pensive' and' people are happ to do that. But could ou ima%ine a store (here ever thin% costs ?.?; #itcoins1 +hat*s a little #it di--erent' ri%ht1 ABL: -So then' m 5uestion is: is it #etter -rom our perspective to %ive a donation o- ?.?; #itcoins or ;?? mili-#itcoins' Gcause that*s the same num#er' ri%ht1 SM: Feah' e0actl ' 6 thin$ it (ould #e #etter' 6 (ould -eel #etter a#out it -or no rational reason at all' %ivin% a donation o- ;?? mili-#itcoins. AA: 6 thin$ this %oes to the -undamental idea that (e*re all rational decision ma$ers' (hich' o- course' (e*re not. +here*s a ver #i% ps cholo%ical -actor here' and people (ho*ve lived in countries (ith massivel de-latin% or in-latin% currencies used this concept ou $no(' once a co--ee cost a ;??'??? l ra' ou chop o-- three &eroes o-- the end and turn it into ;?? l ra' and vice versa' ou add &eroes i- ou have a de-lationar situation. 2hat*s important is the cali#rates the unit o- value to people*s perception o- a small purchase. 6 personall li$e the purchasin% po(er parit inde0 that the economist does on the Bi% Mac.- And (hat that allo(s ou to do is to cali#rate all o- the currencies around the (orld to a common cheap meal that

an one can #u in most countries. 6 thin$ (e should have somethin% ver similar -or Bitcoin (hich is i- the unit (e*re currentl displa in%' it (as' it used to #e used # Bi% Mac' the price should #e #et(een ; and ;? #ecause that ma$es sense to human #ein%s. 6- ou*re tr in% to encoura%e smaller transactions (hich is a reall -antastic capa#ilit o- Bitcoin' it*s ver counter intuitive and counter productive to dominate in #itcoin #ecause essentiall transactions end up #ein% ?.??..somethin%' and that*s ver di--icult -or people to calculate. 6 o-ten to -ind m sel- pullin% out the calculator and that*s no (a to do transactions. 2hat ou reall need is an intuitive correspondence tool and ever da tan%i#le e0perience. 6 su%%est the Bi% Mac' (hat that (ould mean essentiall is reall movin% to mili-#its. -And this is somethin% that (ill impact transaction volume' it does impact people*s perception o- (hat a price is' and (hether e0pensive or not. -And -or all those reasons' this is not Cust a technical issue' it*s a#solutel a critical part o- economics. SM: +here is the pi&&a inde0' ri%ht1 -But that*s a#out a million dollar pi&&a or ever' ou $no(' over that much ri%ht no(. 6 thou%ht o- that (hen ou said a#out the Bi% Mac inde0' #ut 6 a#solutel thin$ ou*re ri%ht' and 6*m even (onderin% i- this idea o-' ou $no(' people li$e to have a small units that are $ind o- eas to calculate -or small transactions' 6*m $inda (onderin% i- that mi%ht #e part o- some o- the popularit o- litecoins #ecause ri%ht no( litecoins are (orth a#out = /S dollars and chan%e per litecoin. -And ma #e people are more com-orta#le doin% small transactions (ith them as opposed to #itcoin. ABL: 2hat is the tippin% point -or ou (here it ma$es sense that' o$a ' #itcoin is (orth L?? dollars' is that the point1 2hat is the ma%ic num#er (here these all ma$e sense to s(itch to mili-#itcoins1 7ind o- Cust on a %eneral level. AA: 2e passed it at a#out #itcoin o- ten' a-ter that most o- the price start to not ma$e sense -or da to da transactions that most people are com-orta#le (ith. -So' as soon as a cup oco--ee costs less than ; unit in our currenc ' ou*ve %ot a pro#lem and ou have to adCust the currenc to reali%n it. 2e*ve passed that point. SM: +here ma #e even another point. Andreas' ou said (e passed one at ten' #ut ou $no(' perhaps there is one at ;?? as (ell' li$e #et(een ;? and ;??. -And' over ;??' si%ni-icantl over ;?? it ma need to adCust a%ain. @ver ;???' (ho $no(s1 AA: 6*m a stron% proponent o- the idea that human perception o- currenc is tied (ith lo%arithmic scale' that*s (h the #i% ps cholo%ical #arriers to the price (ere ;? and ;??' and rarel the ne0t one*s %oin% to #e at ;???. -So es' 6 (ould totall a%ree (ith that. +here are several in-lection points (here ou have continue redividin%' and 6 (ould su%%est a%ain this simple rule o- thum#' a da to da transaction should #e some(here around ; and ;? o- units o- currenc . 6- it isn*t' ou*ve %ot a pro#lem. ABL: 6t*s ver interestin% ho( (e*ve placed ourselves in this distri#ution' #ecause m choice is a#out ;???. 6 thin$ that that*s the point' ou $no(' (here the #itcoin is (orth ;??? and a mili-#itcoin is (orth a dollar' 6 thin$ that*s $ind o- an interestin% parit point #ecause then ou can compare the smaller unit to the essentiall -standard unit o- another currenc . +he -act that (e all $ind o- have these varied opinions on these num#ers and et are still con-inin% ourselves to that' ou $no(' round di%it o- ;?' is tellin% as is to (h is this somethin% that should #e underta$en on a person-# -person #asis instead o-' ou $no(' ever #od all at once.

AA: +hereAs the other cultural e0perience (hich is reall that -or most Americans the *re used to -eelin% rich # #u in% other currencies at multiples -or a dollar' and Bitcoin ma$es them -eel poor. ABL: Bi%ht' 6 mean that*s de-initel true is that Bitcoin turns all o- that on and suddenl it*s the cleanest shirt. AA: Feah' and ou -eel li$e ou*re #u in% somethin% e0pensive and that*s not a %ood place (here Bitcoin to #e. 2hen people start to -eelin% Bitcoin is e0pensive' a%ain' (e*ve passed that point no(. ABL: Bi%ht. SM: Feah' a#solutel . 6 $no( a lot o- people (ho had #een sa in% to me recentl ' )@h %osh' 6 (ould*ve totall #een #u in% #itcoins at M dollars per #itcoin' that*s totall mana%a#le' #ut no( that the *re ;?? dollars plus per #itcoin' 6 Cust can*t a--ord them., -And it*s li$e (ell' ou don*t have to #u multiples o- ; #itcoin' it*s not li$e a stoc$ or (here ou should have at least one share' #ut there sort o- this resistance to understandin% that' so 6 thin$ that is de-initel accurate. AA: Feah' the -lip side o- that is i- ou tell them' (ell' ou can #u a ?.; #itcoin' no( the -eel that the haven*t #ou%ht enou%h. -So' the -lip side o- that' a%ain' it ma$es them -eel poor. 6t*s either e0pensive or the can*t a--ord enou%h. SM: 6 heard an interestin% intervie( (ith !e--re +uc$er (hen #itcoins (ere on this massive para#olic escalation up to the most recent hi%h at a#out =N? dollars. -And he (as sa in% that Americans are not used to havin% an thin% that resem#les a de-lationar currenc ' somethin% that %ets more valua#le the more ou han% on to it' and has more purchasin% po(er. And as result o- that' it reall a--ects the (a ou live our li-e' ri%ht1 -Because' i- the currenc ou primaril use' such as /S dollars' is $ind o- slo(l losin% its value overtime' there*s no incentive to save' there is no incentive to han% on to' ou (anna #u (hat ou can no( #e-ore it decreases in value. But i- somethin% does appreciate over time and %ets more purchasin% po(er' then ou reall start to evaluate our decisions a#out (hether ou (ant to spend it ri%ht no(' or perhaps %et some e0tra value in the -uture # han%in% on to it. So' 6 Cust thin$ it*s interestin% ps cholo%icall . AA: 6 love the idea that Bitcoin (ill actuall leads to the solution o- our consumerism and o#esit pro#lems. .advertisin%. $o%ycart.com is a better checkout e%perience. &mpowering de elopers to create fle%ible, powerful, custom e'commerce in less time while keeping merchants with the fastest checkout flow a ailable to their customers. $o%y Cart is built for web professionals. It can ser ice a foundation for ad anced custom e'commerce deployments or for (uick and easy single product online stores. )!nd of course, $o%y Cart supports Bitcoin. *isit $o%ycart.com to learn more. AA: B"L' the sho(ed up at CS" and char%e >?'??? dollars -or a #o0 o- -ans. +hat (as the t(eet that ou*ve seen the other da .

ABL: @h' 6 thin$ that*s %reat. Fou $no(' continuin% all (e*re Cust tal$in% a#out' in a de-licinar currenc environment' reall ' this Cust lead strai%ht into B"L. -Because Butter-l La#s is one o- the primar ' at least most out there in a pu#lic sense' AS6C manu-acturers' (hich is to sa the ne(est and supposedl pinnacle o- Bitcoin minin% technolo% . +hese are applications speci-ic computers that used a small amount o- ener% relative to the amount ominin% math that the can do in order to %enerate #itcoins and process transactions. Bac$ in Au%ust o- =?;=' 6*ve placed an order in #itcoin' a pre-order in #itcoin -or a !alapeOo' and # the time 6 -inall %ot m mone #ac$ -or it in !anuar ' the num#er that 6 (as a#le to %et #ac$ o- Bitcoins 6 dropped -rom =< Bitcoins to ;; Bitcoins. -And' i- 6 hadn*t %ot m mone #ac$ at that point' 6 (as %onna tr in% to %et a re-und at this point' 6 (ould #e %ettin% less than = Bitcoins #ac$. SM: @h' 6*m sorr to hear a#out that. ABL: Fou $no(' it*s -ine' 6 %ot m mone #ac$. -So' the mone 6 %ot #ac$ in !anuar is no( (orth' ou $no(' at current e0chan%e rates li$e ;N or ;'J?? dollars' (hat (as ori%inall ;<I dollar purchase. -But that*s the point # usin% a de-lationar currenc ' it ma$es a#solutel no sense to tr and spend mone in advance (hen ou actuall (ant to use or e0pect to receive a product. AA: -But i- ouAre a merchant' it ma$es a#solute sense' e0cept to pre-orders' ou can then cash the mone in and ma$e the (a out i- ou at least #elieve that it*s %oin% to continue de-latin%. ABL: +hat*s e0actl ri%ht. AA: +hat leads to some ver perverse incentives. ABL: Fou $no( 6 reall support the concept o- somethin% li$e Bitcoinstarter.com (hich is #asicall 7ic$starter #ut (ith Bitcoin. -But 6 loo$ at (hat the *re tr in% to do and 6 sa ' have ou set oursel- up in a (a that can possi#l succeed1 6 mean' Gcause people have to ma$e $ind o- the (ron% decision' the have to choose to spend in advance (hen the don*t $no( (hat the value (ould #e # the time it is delivered. -So' ou could (ind up spendin%' ou $no(' a%ain' in the case o- B"L i- 6 had set throu%h it' those == #itcoins - 6 (ould have #een %ettin%' ou $no(' let*s assume that the *ve delivered it toda ' (hich the still have it. 6*d #e %ettin% ;L? dollars (orth a value -or over >'??? dollars (orth o- initial investment. 6 mean' that*s Cust cra& . Ho( can ou as a consumer en%a%e in an $ind o- thin% that could end up li$e that1 AA: Feah' as an entrepreneur' ou have the opposite pro#lem. 6 tr to put up a #ount to %et a %raphic desi%n (or$ on Bitcointal$' ou $no(' 6 o--ered a ;? #itcoins a couple months a%o. 6 certainl didn*t intend to spend ;'??? dollars. ABL: Bi%ht. SM: 2o(' so do the #ids come in at the end o- the price started to %o up in Bitcoins1 AA: 2ell' haven*t et -inished the proCect' the *re still %oin%. -So' it*s #asicall %ettin% more and more e0pensive # the da (hich means 6 (ant to %et it over and done (ith 5uic$l ' and all o- the %raphic desi%ners (ould rather (ait a #it.

ABL: -But does it matter1 SM: Feah' %reat 5uestion' Adam' (hether or not it matters. 6*ve actuall come up (ith the similar pro#lem m sel- #ecause 6 do -reelance voice-over (or$ and narrations and stu--' and 6*ve' 6 (ould pre-er to %et paid -or m services in coins. -But' sometimes 6 have trou#le calculatin% (hat 6 should char%e' #ecause the price -luctuations in #itcoin are so %reat and sometimes -rom the #e%innin% to the end o- a proCect. 6t ma ta$e 5uiet a (hile' and the value o- #itcoins in terms o- /S dollars could #e 5uite di--erent -rom the #e%innin% to the end. -So' usuall (hat 6 end up doin% is li$e $inda loosel t in% it to /S dollar rate' and sa in%' )Loo$' (e could rene%otiate this later i- the prices chan%es drasticall ', #ut it*s #een $ind o- a challen%e. 6*d li$e to %et to a point (here it doesn*t matter (hat the /S dollar price is' #ut 6*m Cust not sure e0actl ' ou $no(' (hat the value o- ; #itcoin is' and 6*m not sure that 6*m the ri%ht person to determine that' even. 6t has to #e determined # the cro(d essentiall . ABL: 2ell' -ortunatel ' (e*re seein% a period o- lo( volatilit ri%ht no( (hich $ept the price o- #itcoin relativel sta#le (ith plus or minus > percent ran%e -or the last couple o- (ee$s. 4o(' reall that*s the level o- volatilit that*s' at most that*s accepta#le (ith another currenc that ou*re %oin% to use -or da -to-da transactions' or ou*re %oin% to ma$e promissor notes' or ma$e contractual a%reements to deliver mone later' ou need a volatilit not e0ceedin% that' so let*s hope that this is the ne( normal. SM: +here*s is also the aspect o- Bitcoin that it*s a pa ment net(or$ and so' 6 $no( there*s #een a lot o- criticism a#out Bitcoin recentl #ecause o- the price volatilit in terms o- /S dollars. -But' even i- the price continues to #e reall volatile' eah sure' people (ill lose mone -rom that and people (ill pro-it -rom that. At the end o- the da ' Bitcoin is also a pa ment s stem' a pa ment net(or$ and that has value on its o(n. 3ven i- the price is super volatile' people -eel uncom-orta#le (ith that' it*s still super valua#le (a to send and receive pa ments. AA: @ne thin% to thin$ a#out is that (e*re e0periencin% this volatilit #ecause the vast maCorit o- us move in and out o- #itcoin and #ac$ to our national currencies -or da -to-da spendin%. 6- ou loo$ #ac$ at the late M?*s and earl I?*s' the dollar (as e0periencin% -luctuations o- plus and minus >? percent' sometimes plus and minus <? percent in a couple o- (ee$s' no one notice. -And the reason the didn*t notice #ecause the last time the %o on a vacation and then had to e0chan%e it -or peso or euros or at that time' ou $no(' l ra' the (ouldn*t reall have noticed that #ecause the remained (ithin the econom . 6- (e*re remainin% (ithin the Bitcoin econom ' this (ould not #e an issue at all. 6t*s reall ' a%ain' once a%ain' the -riction (ith national currencies on the on-ramps and o---ramps. ABL: @n the su#Cect o- contracts and ma$in% commitments then that ou have to -ollo( up later' one thin% that Butter-l La#s did a-ter the #le( throu%h their -irst couple o- miles stones' Gcause a%ain the initial release o- this product (as supposed to #e in @cto#er o- =?;=. A-ter the had %one passed that initial deadline' (hat the did is the put up a thin% that said' i- the do not ma$e the po(er %oals that the *re %oin% -or' (hich (as a certain (atta%e -or %i%ahash' then the *re %oin% to donate ;'??? #itcoins to charit . -And' so (e*re no( N months later' the value o- #itcoin is drasticall di--erent and (hat (as' ou $no(' at that time o- <'??? or L'??? dollar commitment is no( over ;??'??? dollars. 2hat happens no(1 6 mean' # their o(n standard' the o(e this mone to charit #ecause the did not hit their po(er re5uirements that the (ere hopin% to hit' so (hat happen1 6 mean' can (e even reasona#l hold them to this1

SM: Bi%ht' and (e $no( that #ecause there (as a video that recentl came out -rom 9avid' -rom codin%inm sleep' ri%ht1 ABL: Feah' 9avid Perr ' he*s actuall %onna #e doin% an intervie( -or the sho( tomorro(. Supposed to #e -or this sho(' #ut it %ot #umped. SM: Feah' so 9avid Perr had a video that he put out (here he received advanced order oone o- the Butter-l La#s products' (hich 6 thin$ (as a !alapeOo Mini Bi%. -And it (as supposed to have a certain (atta%e per %i%ahash and it did e0ceed that 5uite o#viousl ' #ecause he put a po(er meter actuall to sho( ho( much po(er it (as usin%. Fou $no(' 6 thin$ that Butter-l La#s made this promise pu#licl and it*s -ine to hold them accounta#le to it - the did put this out there -or a reason. 6t*s not a loss -or an #od ' reall ' i- the %ive #itcoins to charit . -But' ou $no(' the *ve also made some other promises pu#licl li$e the (ould ship # a certain date and that $ept %ettin% pushed #ac$' so 6*m not sure i- the have a lot o- credi#ilit . 6 $no( that there are lots o- people (ho prett pissed' -ran$l ' at Butter-l La#s ri%ht no(. AA: So' the 5uestion is are the %oin% to increase their credi#ilit # -ul-illin% this promise or the *re %oin% to allo( us to repeat the narro( advice 5uotation' )"ool me t(ice' ou*re never -oolin% me a%ainP, SM: Bi%ht. ABL: 6*d li$e to tal$ a#out the AS6C thin% more in detail on pro#a#l the ne0t sho( Gcause (e*re runnin% out o- time on this one. -But it*s a reall complicated topic' and 6 thin$ it could #e a reall ' reall mess sort o- roll out over the ne0t couple o- months i- suddenl all othese AS6Cs hit all at once' and all the (hole net(or$ %ets up%raded all at once. 6*m ver curious a#out (hat*s %onna happen (ith that. SM: Feah' me too. 6 mean' up until prett recentl ' there (as no even evidence that Butter-l La#s had (or$in% protot pes. -So' it (as %reat to see that little video that 9avid did (here the thin% (as minin%. -But eah' 6 %et it (asn*t e0actl (hat (as promised' it (as lar%er' and it (as also usin% more po(er. Ma #e it also spea$s to the challen%es o- actuall en%ineerin% these Asic miners and puttin% products out there. -And' o- course the sa in% is real artists ship' ri%ht1 6 %et it that the *ve pro#a#l encountered a lot o- un-oreseen issues and pro#lems' and the had to $ind o- t(ea$ their desi%n to %et it (or$in%. But' ma #e that*s the lesson to other people (ho are thin$in% a#out Cumpin% in to the AS6C mar$et' ma$in% their o(n AS6Cs' that is %onna re5uire a lot o- plannin% and a lot o- testin%. ABL: 2ell' li$e m mother al(a s sa s' i- 6 can*t #e a shinin% e0ample at least #e a horri#le (arnin%. 6 thin$ that Butter-l La#s so -ar has de-initel -ul-illed the horri#le (arnin% moni$er. SM: Bi%ht. AA: So' one o- the thin%s that (e*ve #een hearin% a lot latel is re%ardin% the ener% input othese devices. @#viousl ' this particular device that (as tested (as consumin% more ener% than promised' and that matters #ecause' i- ou are a miner' ou*re loo$in% at the Bo6 oener% in -irst versus Bitcoin out. -And' this e5uation has come under 5uiet a lot o- criticism includin% # 4o#el pri&e (inner economist Paul 7ru%man and others' re%ardin% the ener%

consumption o- the Bitcoin net(or$. 6*m callin% BS on that and 5uiet honestl ' 6 thin$ it*s a ver shallo( ar%ument. Let*s loo$ at that in a #it more detail. A lot o- the descriptions ou hear out there compare the ener% consumed in minin% (ith issuin% a national currenc ' #ut that*s not a -air comparison #ecause minin% does a lot more than Cust mint the coin. 6t actuall ensures the inte%rit o- all the transactions as (ell as the inte%rit o- the net(or$ a%ainst attac$' #oth in the -orm o- inCectin% transactions that are #o%us and in the -orm o- tr in% to ta$e over the minin% pool. -So' minin% is doin% a lot more to Bitcoin econom than Cust mintin%. -And' a more -air comparison (ould #e to compare the ener% that %oes into Bitcoin minin% (ith the ener% that %oes into the mint' the paper' the metals -or coins' #ut also the ener% that %oes into the pa ment net(or$' such as 8isa Mastercard' 9iscover' Ame0' and do&en o- others that e0ist' the ener% that %oes into their data centers to do -raud prevention' the ener% that %oes into the securit that point o- sale merchant s stems' and all o- the ener% that %oes into the re%ulator -rame(or$s that are #uilt around trust that cannot #e %uaranteed throu%h computation. --So' it*s reall an un-air comparison' #ecause i- ou loo$ at it -rom that perspective' reall the ener% per volume o- transaction in Bitcoin is cheap. ABL: 2h do ou thin$ that this is a common ar%ument that (e come up a%ainst1 AA: 6 thin$ it*s reall -ear' uncertaint ' and dou#t spread # people (ho don*t understand the topic. -And' Cust li$e an technolo% that introduces rapid chan%e' there (ould #e people (ho are shoc$ed # that chan%e or (orried # that chan%e and a-raid # that chan%e and %rasp stra(s to de#un$ it. SM: People ma #elieve it #ecause the *re not necessaril educated a#out ho( the Bitcoin net(or$ (or$s or the *re not. 6t*s $ind o- an unseen thin% ho( much cost actuall %oes into creatin% the le%ac currenc s stem and ho( much pollution it mi%ht actuall create. -So' ma #e education is an issue too' #ut eah' 6 a%ree (ith ou Andreas' -ear' uncertaint ' and dou#t. AA: 6*d li$e to' ma #e' ma$e -e(er e0cuses -or the Cournalist discussions' #ecause i%norance ma #e DanE e0cuse i- ou*re a late person and ou*re actuall Cust discussin% this in our livin% room. -But' i- ou*re (ritin% a stor that is puttin% to 5uestion the environmental credi#ilit o- a currenc that*s runnin% transactions' 6 thin$ a modicum research and perhaps reachin% out some people (ho $no( (hat the *re tal$in% a#out (ould #e in order. And' that*s a pro#lem. SM: 6 don*t $no( i- ou %entlemen (ere a(are o- this' #ut there*s #een a stor recentl that 6 -ound on the Bitcointal$ -orum' that there are certain people (ho have #een people spo$espeople -or Bitcoin -or 5uiet a (hile up to this point. -And' no( that there are some people sa in% the *re too radical and the *re shouldn*t #e allo(ed to #e listed on this spea$er pa%es -or press. -So' 6 thin$ there is even an active $ind o- e--ort to suppress certain vie(points (ithin the Bitcoin communit ' that mi%ht #e considered too -ree or too radical. ABL: 6- (e*re presentin% Bitcoin to the mainstream media' then 6 thin$ that there*s a lot o-ear that people (ill essentiall Cust #e lau%hed o-- the sta%e i- the have an thin% that can #e tied to them in a ne%ative (a . +he -lip side' thou%h' is that 6 don*t reall thin$ that*s (ho spo$espeople -or Bitcoin are tal$in% to. 6 thin$ people (ho (anna portra themselves as spo$espeople should #e tal$in% to people (ho don*t $no( an thin% a#out Bitcoin -rom the perspective o- them not $no(in% an thin% a#out Bitcoin and tr to help them see ho( it can' ou $no(' have an impact in their o(n lives. -GCause' ou $no(' mone in %eneral is a reall

a#stract concept - once ou start tal$in% a#out di%ital cr ptocurrencies then suddenl the a#stractness %oes to the roo-. 6t seems li$e it*s a mismatch to me o- (ho (e*re tal$in% to and ho( a small %roup o- people are assumin% that that tar%eted audience (ill react. SM: Bi%ht. ABL: At the same time' #ecause Bitcoin is such a decentrali&ed s stem' there*s nothin% reall stoppin% an one (ho (ants to #e a spo$esperson #ut doesn*t (ant to en%a%e throu%h this Bitcoin apparatus (here there*s a list that are a couple o- approved sources. -So' 6 mean is there an thin% stoppin% an one -rom Cust sa in%' )He ' 6 (ould #e %ood at this Co#. Press' contact me., 2hat happens then1 AA: +here*s nothin% stoppin% an one and in -act' even -or the people (ho are on the o--icial list. +he #i%%er issue is hat nothin% stoppin% an one -rom ta$in% Bitcoin and proCectin% all otheir o(n political opinions' desires and e0pectations onto a currenc thatAs relativel neutral. +a$in% that and then to sho( ho( Bitcoin is %oin% to #rin% on this ne( (orld o- QFR or (hatever their e0pectation is. 6 thin$ that*s the other' the -lip side o- that ar%ument and the dan%er (hich is reall people see Bitcoin the (a the (ant to see Bitcoin. ABL: So' i- ou thin$ that ou (ould #e a %ood spo$esperson -or Bitcoin' ou should de-initel e-mail us. Bi%ht no( the e-mail is still adamSminetomatter.or%. -So' that*s a#out all the time (e have -or this episode o- )Let*s +al$ A#out Bitcoin., 6*d li$e to than$ m cohosts' #oth 9r.Stephanie Murph and Mr. Andreas M. Antonopoulos -or Coinin% me -or toda *s episode. AA: +han$ ou. SM: Feah' than$ ou so much' Adam' this is reall -un. ABL: 2as indeed a lot o- -un. 2e*re %onna leave ou toda (ith an intervie( (ith a correspondent name "ar&od. 2e (ere ori%inall %onna tal$ a#out mone trans-ers' #ut it $inda (ound up #ein% #rain (allets and #uried treasures. 2e*ll see ou on the ne0t episode o- Let*s +al$ Bitcoin., Fou can visit us and su#scri#e at Letstal$#itcoin.com. 3nCo . .#ac$%round music. "H: M name is "ar&od Hashemi and 6*m a cr ptocurrencies desi%n and inte%ration strate%ies consultant. 2hat 6 li$e is - people themselves need to step up to the #ac$' ta$e this as an e0ample' 6 see that the *re alread have pro#lems in their lives that the *re %oin% to solve' the Cust don*t $no( ho( the solution applies. ABL: So' (hat pro#lem o- ours do the -i0 and ho( do ou appl them into our li-e1 "H: +o #e honest (ith ou' none. 6 didn*t have much pro#lem. 2ell' %i-ts its a ver nice and se0 (a to %ive %i-ts. 6 Cust %ive a postcard to somoene and the messa%e itsel- is a Brain(allet. 6 reall li$e doin% that. 6t has tremendous reception. People love it. 6 Cust %ive them a postcard -or #irthda or particular occasion or (eddin% %i-t. -And then later on tell them # the da li$e the da a-ter. +he messa%e in that ou can enter it in Bloc$chain in-o and %et a #unch o- #itcoin. -And the Cust love it' the %o ecstatic' it*s li$e nothin% else' it*s Cust a messa%e' it*s a piece o- te0t -or the -irst time in histor ' ou can put literal value in

in-ormation' Cust that piece o- in-ormation. Brain(allets -ascinate me. 6 thin$ there is tremendous application -or them. ABL: -So' our tal$in% a#out sendin% ph sical mail that has a Brain(allet essentiall phrase (ritten on it' and then an #od even i- the are not connected to the same internet DthatE ou are. +he can still retrieve that. "H: A#osulute li5uidit ' Cust (ords' ou can (hisper to someone even #e-ore choosin% to put the mone ' #e-ore havin% the mone in the Brain(allet' tell them ); PM ; #itcoin in this phrase, and it*s done' ou can put the Bitcoin there later ou have had our transaction' ou see (hat Cust happened. 6 mean' a- there is a minimal trust #et(een t(o people that this person is %oin% to pa m on that date ou see ho( that (ent1 ABL: Are ou -amiliar to the proCect called open transactions1 "H: 8a%uel ' eah. ABL: "rom (hat ou are tellin% me' it sounds li$e ou are usin% Brain(allets the same (a that open transactions' #asicall hidin% somethin% plain site. 2here it*s not li$e there an %reat loc$in% mechanism on it so much as it is that ou' and (hoever ou share the in-ormation (ith are the onl people (ho have that in-ormation. -So (hat open transaction -unctionall does' is it sa s' )@$a ' (e can*t hide an thin% #ecause (e (ant complete transparenc ', thin$ o- a %iant %rid (ith a million s5uares in an direction and in order to loo$ in a particular %rid ou have to $no( the coordinates o- that %rid. And so' all ou do then is Cust ta$e (hatever it is ou (ant to leave ou $no( - i- it*s a couple o- Bitcoins or (hatever - and ou place it on one speci-ic point on that %rid and onl someone (ho speci-icall loo$s there can access it' and the %rid is so lar%e it*s impossi#le -or an person to do that in a reasona#le amount o- time. 6t*s li$e ou*re #ur in% treasure' almost' (ith ou mind. "H: 30actl ' e0actl . 4o(' ima%ine i- that treasure itsel- is somethin% that re5uires thin$in%' it*s the ans(er to a riddle. 4o(' 6 Cust $eep tr in% to come up (ith (a s o- doin% that there are limitations' #ecause o- the past needs to #e e0act' ou need to have some %round rules. ABL: +han$s -or tunin% in to the pilot episode o- )Let*s +al$ Bitcoin., 2hether ou li$ed or hated the sho(' (e (ant to $no( (hat ou thin$. Please send all comments' listener 5uestions' and critic to adamSmindtomatter.or% . Sta tune -or or ne0t episode' comin% Saturda the =Jth o- April' -eaturin% an intervie( (ith 9avid Perr ' the onl man in the universe to ever received an AS6C product -rom Butter-l La#s' or ma #e not. But he*s #een minin% -or a (ee$ no( and 6 %ot some 5uestions -or him' so sta tunedP