Professional Documents
Culture Documents
an
interview
with
nathaniel
branden
/'
/
/'
/
With pleasure REASON publishes the first U.S., Canada, and abroad. He co-founded between Miss Rand and Mr. Branden were
candid, comprehensive interview with THE OBJECTIVIST NEWSLETTER with and remain a mystery.
,/ Nathaniel Branden. One of the original Miss Rand in 1962 and was co-editor of
intellects of the Objectivist movement, he this publication (which subsequently But, following the announcement of their
is the founder of a new approach to became THE OBJECTIVIST) until 1968. break, the small world of students of
psychology-which he calls "Biocentric Through his various lectures, public Objectivism suffered a traumatic shock.
Psychology"-and which was first appearances, and numerous articles, he Business associates and friends of many
introduced in his book THE has been second only t o Miss Rand herself years parted ways when they found that
PSYCHOLOGY OF SELF-ESTEEM. in the presentation, clarification, and they stood on opposite sides in this con-
advancement of the principles of the flict-some favoring Miss Rand, others
Nathaniel Branden was born in Brampton, Objectivist philosophy. favoring Mr. Branden. Those who took
Ontario, in 1930. He grew up in Toronto Miss Rand's "side" evidently accepted her
and studied psychology a t UCLA and His association with Ayn Rand terminated position without reservation or question,
NYU. He was initially attracted to the in the summer of 1968. I n the pages of committing themselves to the view that it
ideas of Ayn Rand through reading THE THE OBJECTIVIST Miss Rand was morally wrong t o grant any credibi-
FOUNTAINHEAD. His association with announced that Mr. Branden was no lity to Mr. Branden's answer t o Miss
Miss Rand, from their initial meeting in longer associated with her or with her Rand's charges. Those who acknowledged
1951, is well-known. He organized work. I n answer t o her various charges the possibility that there could be any
Nathaniel Branden Institute, a lecture against him, Mr. Branden responded with justice on Mr. Branden's side were held in
organization that offered courses on Miss a detailed paper, entitled "In Answer to contempt by Miss Rand's partisans and
Rand's philosophy of Objectivism as well Ayn Rand," one section of which was were repudiated as "betrayers of Objecti-
as on his own psychological theories in written by him, the other by Barbara vism."
more than eighty cities throughout the Branden. The actual details of the conflict
BRANDEN: No. I did not make that BRANDEN: I like his opposition to BRANDEN: Well, Skinner is, of course,
decision until my twenties. Earlier I psychoanalysis and behaviorism. But I America's leading neo-behaviorist. And
thought I would earn my living teaching don't think he was very profound as a I've already said what I think of beha-
psychology a t some university. I thought theoretician. I think his most valuable and viorism. Skinner has made it clear that he
of myself primarily as a theorist; I still do. important idea is that human needs exist believes in a political Blite of psycho-
But then, in my twenties, I began t o work in a hierarchy; that is, that needs of a logists-in effect, a dictatorship of psycho-
with a few people, doing therapy, and certain level must be satisfied before the logical "experts"-running the country
discovered that this was the way to learn next levels of higher needs assert them- and controlling people's lives for the
the things I wanted t o learn; this was my selves, and they must be satisfied before purpose of "preserving and perpetuating
best means of doing research. the next levels of higher needs assert the culture." I do not believe in "bene-
themselves, and so on. I don't necessarily volent" dictatorships. But, make no
REASON: What was your reaction t o agree with his view of what are man's mistake about it, many psychologists do,
academic psychology when you entered needs, in all cases, but that's another and Skinner represents a wish-fulfillment
college? question. Also, I admire Maslow for the for many of them.
fact that he chose to study healthy
BRANDEN: It was very disappointing, people, superior people, what he called REASON: Thomas Szasz?
very boring, very frustrating. I had a sense the "self-actualizing personality," in
that almost everything I was taught was contrast to the majority of psychologists BRANDEN: Szasz's chief contribution, in
irrelevant. I decided that the science of who seem to be interested only in my opinion, is t o have drawn attention t o
psychology did not yet exist, that it was a neurosis and deficiency. the appalling victimization of mental
science waiting to be born. patients in our psychiatric hospitals, t o
criticism of this policy, but it sounds a bit BRANDEN: I wish that the book had sometimes it seems to me that today three
strange coming from her. never been written. I f it were possible to quarters of the students of Objectivism
prevent its further distribution, I would are doing it.
As to the other side of what she calls do so.
"psychologizing," that is, using alleged All of her friends, all of the circle of
"psychological" explanations to justify or I speak for Barbara Branden as well as for which I was a member, were in terror of
excuse some form of irrational behavior, myself in saying that we repudiate that her-and no one would admit it, because
Miss Rand does not do that-not about book. I am glad to have the opportunity to admit it would be to open the door to
herself-since it is not her policy to to do so publicly and in print. the wider implications of her behavior.
acknowledge that she ever acts irration-
ally. Our repudiation applies, primarily, to REASON: You paint a' rather dark
Barbara Branden's biographical essay on picture.
So far as the article in general goes, there Miss Rand. The portrait of Miss Rand's
is a good deal in it that's sound; but in character it presents is false, not through BRANDEN: What makes the story so
certain respects it is naive psychologically. any dishonest intention on Barbara tragic is that there is a whole other side of
Judging from her remarks, Miss Rand Branden's part-the essay was certainly Ayn Rand which is benevolent, generous,
evidently believes that conscious mental written in good faith a t the time-but innocent, magnanimous. That is the side
processes can be kept entirely separate because of what the essay omits, because which Barbara Branden stressed in her
from and independent of subconscious of what it neglects to tell about Miss essay. And that is the picture her friends
mental processes-which is not true. Rand's behavior and personality. Too present to the world. It's true enough; but
much was left out of that essay, although it's not the whole story.
I did not realize this, or did not realize it Barbara did not realize this a t the time
fully, during the years of our association, and neither did I. I am aware that many of her admirers will
but Miss Rand is very ignorant of human hate me for saying these things. Not
psychology. On certain occasions, she I do not enjoy making this statement. It because they necessarily believe them t o
admitted that to me. It was not unusual saddens me. But the truth is the truth. be false, but because it upsets them to be
for her to declare, "Nathan, I don't really told that the Ayn Rand mystique is just
understand anything about human REASON: What sort of things are left out that-a mystique, I f they need an idol and
psychology." But I never appreciated the of Barbara Branden's portrait of Miss have chosen Ayn Rand for that role, they
full implications of what she was acknow- Rand? won't appreciate what I am saying.
ledging.
BRANDEN: Miss Rand's penchant for I want to acknowledge that for many
In WHO I S A Y N RAND?, I compliment extravagant self-compliments. Her fits of years I would not permit myself to face
her psychological acumen. I was wrong to temper over trivia. Her obsession with these facts. I played a major role in per-
do so. That was my own naivete or blind- absolute personal loyalty on the part of petuating the Ayn Rand mystique.
ness. I think Miss Rand's lack of psycho- her friends.
logical understanding is a great liability to REASON: Would you say you evaded on
her, not only as a person but also as a Her deadly, eternal moralizing. this issue?
philosopher. The point a t which her
ignorance becomes most apparent is when Her anger and defensiveness, when BRANDEN: Yes. Many other factors were
she attempts to moralize about psycho- challenged about her ideas. Her bitterness also involved, however, including con-
logical processes, as she does constantly. and suspiciousness and resentment. fusion, emotional repression, and hero
BRANDEN: She made the changes. She BRANDEN: That's hard to answer
knew what was in the orisinal edition and because it was a gradual thing. In one
she knew what was in the-new edition. sense I can say that I was never really
Judge for yourself. happy there. Nor was anyone else, in my
judgment, although I doubt that they
REASON: Did she really regard those would admit it.
changes as unimportant and insubstantial?
There is no way to communicate the
BRANDEN: Now you are asking me t o go tension in that circle surrounding Miss
inside her head. I prefer not to do that. Rand. There is a constant concern with
doing nothing t o upset her. A constant
REASON: It is rather well-known that concern to avoid her anger or disapproval.
Miss Rand can be unusually harsh on It tends to make all spontaneity im-
people who ask unfortunate questions a t possible.
her lectures, questions that antagonize
her. But she has such a great mind, she has so
much t o offer, and intellectual conversa-
BRANDEN: Yes, she gets very unpleasant tions with her can be so intellectually
sometimes. She yells; she abuses; she exciting and stimulating that it seemed to
attacks the questioners; she launches into make everything else worthwhile. A t least,
discussions of their motives; she "psycho- that's how it was for me, for many years.
logizes."
It was hard for me to face the fact that, as
REASON: What was your attitude toward a person, I did not really like her in im-
this when you were present? portant respects. It is not pleasant for me
t o say it, even now.
BRANDEN: In my early years, while I
never shouted or carried on as Miss Rand Another reason why I was not happy
did, I sometimes treated questioners too during my New York years was because-
harshly when I felt their questions were although I did not acknowledge it-I did
foolish. Gradually my attitude changed, as not really care much for the other
I came t o see how wrong this was. members of the circle. I wanted t o like
them, but I didn't, not really. I couldn't
Miss Rand and I had many discussions on admire them. Whatever her faults, Ayn
the subject. I tried to explain to her why Rand had and has genius. But the
it was wrong t o make people feel others.. .
frightened to ask questions, why it was
disastrous for their intellectual growth REASON: What about them?
and totally against the spirit of our philo-
sophy. BRANDEN: The ones who are still there
just aren't anything in particular-not by
Sometimes, walking home from a lecture, my standards. I don't mean that some of
she would joke about it. She would say, them don't have intelligence. But they are
"Aren't you proud of me? I didn't get not in any way unusual as people. With-
angry once tonight." out Ayn Rand, what would they be? Any
moral significance they imagine their lives
But it wasn't really funny. So in the last may have results from their association
few years I moved toward phasing her out with her. She is their one claim to fame, i f
of participating in the question-and- you know what I mean. It's not a healthv
answer period following my lectures. I situation.
knew she did not enjoy participating in
the question periods and was there only However, perhaps some of them will
t o oblige me, because it would be a value accomplish something worthwhile in the
t o my students to see her and question future. It's possible. Who can say? It's
her, but I told her this was no longer even possible that some of them may
necessary. Her absence thereafter was break free, may strike out on their own.
good for her and good for me. Toward the
end, she came only to the opening lecture REASON: Can you say anything about
of the basic course on Objectivism-and the purges or excommunications in the
gave one guest lecture on literature. New York circle that one hears about?
going to do. Libertarians. The fact remains that we If it were not such a bromide, I would say
should have never have involved ourselves they are suffering from a lack of know-
REASON: Would you have any advice to in Viet Nam, the draft is evil, and racism ledge of how to communicate.
give them? is contemptible. Libertarians-the true
defenders of individual rights-should I am hoping that your magazine will be a
BRANDEN: Yes, I think so. I n fact, I have been the first to speak up on these step in a better direction.
would enjoy speaking t o Libertarian subjects, loudly and clearly and publicly.
groups. I think it’s unfortunate that REASON: What do you want out of life?
Libertarians so often leave the initiative t o I don‘t mean that these are the only issues What are your goals?
the Leftists. For example, it was the to which Libertarians should address
Leftists who were the first-publicly and themselves. Far from it. But it would have BRANDEN: To live. To know that I am
in a big way-to oppose our involvement been immensely important had totally using myself, using my powers,
in Viet Nam. It was the Leftists who were Libertarians been the first t o speak up on living t o the limit of what I can do. To
the first-publicly and in a big way-to these problems. discover as much about human psycho-
oppose the draft. It was the Leftists who logy as I can. To write some good novels.
were the first-publicly and in a big way- Libertarians don’t seem to know what the And always t o feel about life as I do right
t o denounce racism in this country. vital issues are, where the battle lines most now.
need to be drawn, and which issues should
Never mind that the Leftists had their be attacked first. They don’t seem t o have REASON: You have been very candid
own motives for doing so and that those a good sense of practical reality in these during this interview, which we
motives would not be the motives of matters. appreciate. Thank you. 0