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STATE OF TERESA A. TAYLOR EXAMINATION BY DETECTlVE JEFF BROWN: here, at the Ashtabula evening, the 17th, City

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Q.

We are present, It's Monday

Police Departrnent.

approxirnately 20 rninutes after 10:00 p.rn. Present are rnyself, Detective Detective perspective conducted Jeff Brown from the sheriff's department;

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Jim Oatrnan of the city police, witnesses in the shooting

and two . being

investigation

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this evening. is Teresa Taylor, and her rnother is

The first witness present,

Lillie Taylor-Lathan;

is that correct? Yes.

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN:

Q.

Teresa,

we would like to talk to you first,

and you understand, A. Q. Yeah.

you are on carnera, correct?

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And I want you to be relaxed,

we are going

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to ask you a few questions,

here, to get you started and and just tell

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then I want you to, again, totally relaxed the story as you rernember it.

Take your time, there's no don't worry about

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rush here, you know, if there's silence, the silence and rush into something. and you need to correct yourself,

If you rnake a rnistake

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feel free to do that.

Would you please state your full name?

A. Teresa Ann Taylor.

Q.

How old are you7 2

000138

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A.

Twelve. You live at what 923 West 43rd. How long have you Three years. This evening, or this afternoon, at to the fired In your your own lived there? address?

Q. A. Q.
A.

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Q.
approximately

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4:30, I believe,

as you told us prior shots being

taping, you had an occasion and a police own words, officer

to witness

being injured

near your horne. you did see with

would

you tell us what correct? DETECTIVE

eyes, from the beginning,

OATMAN:

Like you told and if you

us when you first observed can remember,

the people

involved

also, when you are describing what they are wearing,

them to us, if help a

you would describe little bit, too.

that would

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A.
door window, wearing Dallas jacket.

At first, I looked

out the window,

the front

and I saw three males. and tan jacket,

They -- one was

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a green Cowboy And,

the other was wearing one was wearing

jacket,

and the third

a green

it looked like they were talking

and they east

moved from in the front of my house part of it in the driveway. window to the side window

to the east side,

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So, I moved from the front

and it looked like they were-

arguing,

and the two -- and the one in the tan and green

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jacket and the one in the Dallas my yard and the third friend, cutting window through

Cowboy

jacket cut through They were on the at her

he just, he left.

my yard and my mom, she was banging the yard, and they looked

to not cut through

and they just ignored her and that's towards the back of the fence, and the police

when they walked they walked down

(inaudible)

the street

officer

came from behind They started

and he

asked -- said something through

to them.

to run back

my yard and cut through went around

it on the other side and they found the evidence,

the officer

and, where

the two people pulled

were back by the fence and the shooter told hirn to put it down, got right

out a gun and his friend

but he wouldn't

listen to hirn and the officer

there, he saw the gun and he told hirn to put it down and don't shoot, officer telling but he shot hirn and then it looked like the

fell and then he got right

back up and he was hirn

hirn not to shoot and his friend kept telling

not to shoot, officer fall.

and he shot hirn two more times and I saw the

Q.

SO, you are saying you saw and/or heard how

rnany shots fired? A. I heard exactly four. of the bang, or

Q.
banging

And you remernber what the sequence sound was? Was it close proxirnity, bang, it?

bang-bang-bang.

Can you describe

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A.

It was a elose,

I eould hear, really

elose,

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it was like, bang, bang-bang-bang.

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Q.
banging sounds?

Where were you at when you saw or heard this

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A.
and I heard--

I was in our bathroorn looking

out the window

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Q.
located? A.

Would

you explain where

the bathroorn is

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The bathroorn is located On whieh

on the seeond

floor.

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Q.
A.

side of the horne?

On the east part of the horne. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: South side?

Would

it be the south

side? DETECTIVE OATMAN: No, east side. Oh, it would

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Q.

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN:

When you saw these rnen on the sidewalk, they were arguing, No. Did you aetually wateh eould you hear?

you

thought

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thern at that point?

And, you said one 1eft, it was right then when they turned into your yard? No, they went down the street officer and that's

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23 A.
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rode up and they saw hirn, and they

and he told thern to stop, and they ran .

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through my yard, then the shooter the Dallas were,

then he run around to where the shooter

he was and the ones in

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and his friend,

coat and the tan and green

coat, were, um, they

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like, about three

feet away from the back fence and from where the officer was, on

they were directly

across

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the other side of the woods. DETECTIVE that the officer went around, OATMAN: When you said

do you mean that he followed way? way. OATMAN: Did, like,

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the two, or did he go another A. He went anather

DETECTIVE beside street, happen A. house, towards another Coleman hause

or da you knaw, was it over by the Do you remernber, like, did you he went?

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Avenue?

to see where

between

From where the house where Coleman Avenue.

his car was in front of the was, behind it, he went

the shooting

DETECTIVE that house that he was parked that house? A. the road.

OATMAN:

Like around

in front of, to the east of

He went all the way around

in the street,

in

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DETECTlVE OATMAN:
around A. in the street? (Moved head up and down.)

So, he went

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Q.
the street

Now, you know he went to the street is over there. couldn't Would

because

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it be fair to say that This there? and he is a

you, you really deduction There's

see hirn at the street? on knowing what's astreet

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that you made based there's

a house there,

over there

went over that way or you couldn't there? A. Where

actually

see hirn over

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I saw hirn was when he got out of the around the corner.

car and, um, I seen hirn disappear

Q.
emergency

When the police lights going No.

car pulled up, was there Revolving? parked

on the car?

A.

He stopped

on the -- he almost

and then the two guys

in the coats, Dallas

co at and tan and

green coat, saw hirn and they took off running.

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Q.
police car?

You saw no ernergency lights running

on the

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A. Q.
A.

No. On the roof? Uh-uh. So, you were watching the whole time, as I or

Q.
understand

it, frorn the time that you saw them arguing

22 whatever was going on, going on further to the east to the

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25 next house, the police visual A. contact car pulls up, you had constant

all that time? (Moved head up and down.)

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Q.
took interest

Was there to watch

any particular

reason

that you

that long? certain people that hang they

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A.

Um, they -- there's

at our house a lot or they hang around usually cut through

on our streets,

our yard, so we always going through in drugs

keep a look out there, 'cause

or watch out for the people sometimes they'll traffick that's

in front of our house watch. that

or near our house,

why we ~eep a constant stage of everything

Q.
happened

At that early tonight, were?

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did you have any idea of who any of those

individuals

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A.

One in the Dallas

co at was Jirnmie Ruth,

and

I don't know the other Q. A.

one in the tan coat was. Ruth?

How do you know Jimmie I know hirn by my morn.

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: of her friends

The girl's

one

that she goes to school with, Sandra, I'm good friends

over

on Station Avenue. good friends

with her mom and she's we'll

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with her daughter,

so once in a while,

go by there and say hi. where's.

But, I know -- I can spot hirn any of hirn, I know who he iso see hirn hanging house, out on

lf l've seen a picture because

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He's also a dealer, Station Avenue

I always

when I go to rny sister's

I arn not

sure what coat he had on, but I know, I know hirn if I see hirn.

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Q.
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When you saw the man down by the fence, and for anyone listening to back up that we are to the

this may be hard to visualize tape or reviewing everything

this, but we are going

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you are telling

us with photographs

taking out there, perhaps, later, perhaps, if we need

we can 'also show those to you to.

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You are describing already been down there

down by the fence, which we've and we know where that's at. You

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saw two men and you heard gun shots. someone's A. hands?

Did you see a gun in

The one in the tan and green coat had the

gun in his hands.

Q.

When did you first, actually, there was a gun present? When he pulled it straight

detect,

by

seeing,
A.

it out of his pocket.

He

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just pulled

out of his pocket,

you could just

see it, it was visible.

Q.

And this,

again,

is down at, towards

the r,
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fence area you are tal king about? A. (Moved head up and down.) DETECT1VE he pulled it from his pocket, time? it out when he was back by the OATMAN: 1s that where

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in the back area, or did he

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pull it out another A. fence.

He pulled

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Q.
he was pulling A.

Did you have site of the police the gun? Yes, I did. did you see the police officer

officer

as

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Q.
A.

And where The police

officer?

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was on the right side of

the garage by a boarded

window. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: You mean our

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garage, A.

or Lisa's

garage? garage. That's the way

It was our neighbor's

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MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: I seen -- that's the direction

that I seen the guy with the .

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Green Bay Packer's

hat on, green hat, and I told hirn to get So, after they had done my yard and

out of my yard, he ran that way.

what they had did, he tried to cut through

that's when I told them to get out of my yard and one of the guys, in the Dallas Cowboy hat, was going to follow hat. I said get out of my the

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guy in the Green Bay Packer's yard. The guy in the Dallas

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outfit went down West Avenue, hat,

up my street and the guy in the Green Bay Packer's continued Street. Q. Do you have any eye problems? No. to run through

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the fence over on West 41st

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A.
Q.

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Did you ever have your eyes examined? Yeah.

A.

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000146

Q.
any problems either

So, you have never been told that you have with depth of field, you know, seeing things

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elose up or at a distanee, but yet they are apart? like that? I just wear You deseribed this evening, reading

that look like they are You don't have any

together, problems A. Q.

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glasses.

to us, when you were at your

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horne earlier

that the two men were near the is ne ar the garage. area and around there?

fenee line in the back Isn't it true, there's, undergrowth, you know, Yes.

and the offieer like, a wooded twigs

and things,

A. Q.
all that? A.

Could you clearly

see the officer

through

Yes. And you are eertain near that he was on the west window?

Q.

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side of the garage, A. Q. eentered A. the window.

the boarded

(Moved head up and down.) Was he one side of the other or sort of with that window? Um, sort of centered, on the left side of

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DET OATMAN: looking boarded, at it to the left,

As you are if you were looking up at the the area over there?

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it would be towards

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A.
Q.

Yes. When you perceived chasing that the officer was

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probably

the man, you explained

that he went around

the east side of the house; there?

A. Q. A.

it is true, there is a driveway

Yeah,

he can run up the driveway

or around.

Onto the street? Yeah, but I think he went through because it would the

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driveway, around,
Q.

have taken a lot longer to go

and all he had to do was go up the driveway. So, you are still watching window or upstairs window? from this

downstairs

A.
Q. '

Upstairs. Atwhat point did you go upstairs? by the window, You said

~- you were downstairs

you saw them go to

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the house, you saw the police being chased by the police

car come, you saw the man at least, that's what

officer,

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you presurned to be going on. go upstairs A.

At what point,

then, did you

and why did you go upstairs? I went upstairs when the officer turned the

corner and I went up there, because them (inaudible) I went upstairs

when he was chasing I could see a did

because

better view of what was happening, happen

in case something sometimes

and could see if they dropped, running

they drop

stuff while they're

and they found drugs and stuff

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000148

out in the woods, the wooded part and that's why I was there. Q. When you first got .into the bathroom, what

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is the first thing you saw when you looked out that window? A. a gun. Q. A. Was he moving at the time or standing still? He was standing there and he pulled the gun I saw the one man, in the tan coat, pull out

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out of his pocket. Q. A. The other individual is there also? (Moved head up and down.) DETECTIVE OATMAN: individual wore what coat? A. Dallas Cowboy. DETECTIVE OATMAN: hirnto be who? A. Jimmie Ruth. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Was he the one And you know And that

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that -- was Jimmie Ruth the one that had the Dallas coat? DETECTIVE. OATMAN: with you, I'm not sure. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: am not sure. DET~CTIVE OATMAN: His name, I I have a -- I To be honest

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don't know who was wearing what coat for certain, that's 13

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why I arn asking talking about,

you, you know, if that's the person you are

that was with the person in the tan coat?

When you saw the person coat you said-A.

that was in the tan and green

(Moved head up and down.) DETECTIVE OATMAN: --you said you

saw hirn pull the gun. right? A. You heard when Yes.

You heard the first shot, is that he fired the first time?

DETECTIVE said sornething was said? A. Yeah,

OATMAN:

And then you

his friend told hirn to put the gun-DETECTlVE OATMAN: His friend is?

Who is his friend? A. is Jimrnie Ruth. DETECTlVE hirn? OATMAN: And he told The guy in the Dallas Cowboy coat, I think

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A.
wouldn't

He told hirn to put the gun down and he listen'to hirn and, um, the officer, and the officer and that's

when he shot the officer

sort of fell and

then he got right back up and he told hirn to put the gun down and that's when he fired the last couple shots. DETECTIVE OATMAN: When you saw -

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- you saw hirn fire the gun or did you just see hirn and he ar

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the shots'?
A.

I saw it. DETECTIVE OATMAN: What would

you describe hands'? A. Q. you see with anything fired, A. He held

it like, if you could see the gun in his

Yes. When you heard the gun'? I mean, the shot, I mean, did you happen the gun while what did

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to notice it was being

that was happening

with

I mean, did you'? He had the gun, he held it a certa~n it like this (indicating) way.

instead of like this (indicating). as

(indicating). Q.

He held

it like this

Was. he holding

it with his right hand,

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you are sirnulating'? A. Q. or at shoulder the waist'? A. I don't know if he was aiming. I don't know Yes. Did he hold height it stretched out in front of hirn there'? At

or sornewhere in between

how -- when he shot it, it was like he was airning and he shot it. DETECTlVE at eye level, OATMAN: So, it was up

is that what you are saying'? Yes.

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A.

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000151

DETECTIVE OATMAN: the gun at all?

Did you notiee

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I mean, as far as smoke from the gun or

flames eoming out, eould you see any of that?

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A.

No, not really.

There eould have been

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smoke, but I didn't see it. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: They must of

shot hirnat elose range for rneto be in my room to hear the shots and for me to run downstairs. That's too elose. too. That's too elose.

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The younger ones, they heard it all, So, it

I rnean,their windows faeing that direetion.

had to have been elose range for everybody to hear it on the seeond floor. DETECTIVE OATMAN:
you

Close range,

mean, to your house? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Yeah. Yeah.

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The guy with the Green Bay Packer's hat, you know, after it all had happened, he had his nerve to go across the street and wateh the stuff. A. On 41st Street. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Over on 41st,

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in front of the red house and wateh what was happening. DETECTIVE OATMAN: with the Green Bay Paeker's? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: I don't know. Who is the one

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Green Bay Paeker's hat, green hat, I don't know his name. 16

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DETECTIVE OATMAN: wearing the green hat, do you know? A. Some people say his name was-DETECTIVE OATMAN:

Who was

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That was the

third person that left originally, is that the one you were talking about? A. was Odraye. DETECTIVE OATMAN: sure that's who you saw? MS. TAYLOR LATHAN: I saw a guy But, are you No, the one in the tan coat, they said it

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with a green cap run through my yard over there to West 41st Street and he had the nerve to stand over there and watch what was going on. I had ca11ed out to Terry Tu1ino,

because I know hirn, I know his family pretty weIl, to let hirnknow that one of the suspects is over across the street, over there, watehing this. It doesn't make sense.

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But, he never got around to me, because he was more concerned with helping this officer. DETECTIVE OATMAN: When you saw

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that man standing over there, did you see, I mean, mainly the hat or could you see the face also? MS. TAYLOR LATHAN: distance where I was at, I seen the hat. I -- from the He did have a

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dark green coat with tan on it and he -- I really couldn't 17

000153

see his face, but it was a black person. DETECTIVE clarified that. In the beginning, OATMAN: We had
you

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all the individuals

saw were black males. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: guess, somebody else must have pointed And so, I

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it out to an officer So, I

that one of the suspects guess, they did apprehend Street.

is over across the street.

hirn from over there on West 41st hirn or not, but I there, but did

I don't know if they apprehended

looked around and I didn't see hirn standing see some officers Q. over there.

In the beginning,

you saw three men?

One

man left and two continued A. Yes.

to the house on the east.

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Q.
rnen?
A.

When the shots were being fired, you saw two

Yes. Did you ever see a third man? No. Again-The other one, he just -- he left. I don't

Q. A. Q.
A.

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know where, but he, he left towards West Avenue. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: before the shooting A. or after? Did he leave

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After--

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000154

'

1 2
3 4 5
Q.

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: A. Before the shooting. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Could you see clearly that you would

I think,

too--

Before.

out there with all the there wasn't

trees, person A.

know for certain

a third

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on the other side of the clearing? Yeah. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Unless

I seen

he was the

hiding Dallas
Q.

out

--

I didn't

see the third person, guy.

guy and Green Bay Packer

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When you went out the window upstairs,

you

looked out, first thing you said, as you explained was the man pulling correctly,

to me,

the gun out and, make sure I understand is already standing there in front

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the officer when'you

of the garage

see thern on that west side?

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A. Q.
Standing A. there?

(Moved head up and down.) Did you see the officer doing anything?

Does he have his gun out? No, he doesn't have his gun out. At first, in

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he put his hand behind

hirn and then he put it rightback

front of him and this is when

Q. A. Q.

the first of the shots came.

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Did you see his gun in his hand? The officer? Yes. No.

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A.

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000155

1 2
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Q.

Do you feel confident,

comfortable,

to say

that he never had his gun drawn?

A.

I don't

know. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: You never saw

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the officer's A. (inaudible)

weapon? I don't know if he pulled a gun out time. I

when the shooter

shot hirn the second

don't know if he pulled after the first shot.

it out then or if he pulled

it out

DETECTIVE hirn with a gun out though it, I want to make sure. his gun? A. hand back,

OATMAN:

Did you see

or, I mean,

just so I can clarify with .

Did you ever see the officer his gun?

I rnean, do think he had pulled

It's -- the way it looked when he put his it looked like he was reaching for his gun and
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that' s when the first shot came, t.he shooter, in the tan and green coat, probably just thought he was going to pull So, he

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his gun out and just shoot hirn right there. probably thought he was going to pull

it out and he just

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shot hirn. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: remember

Q.

Do you

seeing the officer After

with his gun in his hand?

the shots were fired, what did you see

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then?

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A.

I saw the one, the kid that had the Dallas

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000156

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4 5

Cowboy

jacket,

he ran from where he was standing

to, he ran

out of my yard and he ran towards West Avenue that back. He ran from my yard to Coleman for someone, West Avenue. DETECTIVE street, A.
Q.

-- no, I take and he so

Avenue

must of been looking he ran down towards

but nobody

was there,

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OATMAN:

On your

on West 43rd Street? Uh-huh. You said he ran to Coleman, how did he go to

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Coleman? A. through
Q.

He came from where he was standing, the yard and stopped Which at the bushes.

he ran

is 43rd Street?

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A. towards Coleman

43rd and he ran, he ran west -- no, east, and then he looked down the street, and he didn't see anyone he kept

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looking back and forth, was looking Avenue.

Q.

that he West

for or whatever,

then he ran west towards

Did you have clear site of hirn the whole

time? A.
Q.

Yeah. You could see hirn run to the east and look

and come back? A.

Q.

(Moved head up and down.) I have to presume he is out in the road

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000157

then, doing that?

A.

2 3

Yes. Did he run down the road when he went back

Q.

west towards West Avenue? A. Yeah, 'cause after that, the person in the he ran

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tan coat, after he shot the police, the officer, towards the fence and couldn't towards

get over it, so he ran south

the bushes on 43rd and was looking for the kid in So, he ran back and rnust have detoured The other kid, in the find hirn, so he ran

the Dallas coat.

through the opening that there was. Dallas coat, carne back, he couldn't

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through our yard. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: cut -- couldn't and Jeff'si A. That's when he

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get over rny fence, so he cut through Lisa's

I did see hirn run that way. Then, he cut through the house, the house

.
I
~

that was behind, north of us, he went behind their back yard and through sorne garages there, I think, and the other kid in the tan coat, he just ran straight. DETECTIVE which direction?
A.

I
I

I
Straight,

20
21 22 23

OATMAN:

i
North, towards 41st. that ran

North.

Q.

This now, the second individual

24 25

back through your yard, you saw hirn sornehow get across the fenced area and you turned back to the west? 22

000158

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

A.

(Moved head up and down.) MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: That's when I

told both of the guys to get out of rny yard. COlernan, like she stated, couldn't

One ran up to

and the guy with the green hat so he cut through rny neighbor's

get over rny fence,

yard in the opening over there.

and that's

the route he took to get

Q.

You saw that happen? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Yeah, I seen -

9
10 11 12
13

- I told hirn to get out of rny yard.

Q.

This was after the shots were fired? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: This is after I

everything,

yeah.

I seen hirn running no sidewalk

back and forth. get out of my

14 15 16
17

told hirn there's yard.

back there,

One guy with the Dallas

went towards

Colernan and his

buddy went up towards

the fence. DETECTIVE OATMAN: Behind your

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

house? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: when -- after the cops had gotten standing there, there, Right, that's

I had seen hirn everything. ones they

over on 41st Street,

watehing

So, I don't know which don't have.

ones they got and which

DETECTIVE he went over on, like, towards

OATMAN:

When you say

41st--

.I
000159

! i

23

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: DETECTIVE OATMAN:

Uh-huh. --was there a see hirn leave

time you lost site of hirn or did you actually your yard and go to that position

on 41st Street? Yes, I did. You watched

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: DETECTIVE hirn? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: from my window, OATMAN:

I watched

hirn,

leave my yard, go up, cut through

the fence

and go down 41st.

He went down a little bit and, I guess, that were observing, standing

he caught up with sorne people there, watching

hirn walk back and forth. DETECTlVE OATMAN: Wasn't it a

14
15

few rninutes though, trying

and correct rne if I am wrong, wasn't

I am

to piece this together, got there,

it a few rninutes there a little

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

be fore the police bit of time?

I rnean, wasn't

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN:

Right,

that's

when he ran, there was time be fore the cops got there. That's when he ran back, after they did what they did and I seen thern coming up through through the yard, that's when he ran back

the fenced yard.

His buddy went the other way

and he went up that way and I see hirn going down 41st Street, before all the cops and stuff had gotten When the officer there.

Q.

fell, could you see hirn?

24

000160

A. he turned

Yeah, he went south a little ways around and went back north

and then

2 3 4 5
6

and where you found

the evidence,
Q.

that's where he fell. When you referred to evidence, what do you

rnean by that?
A. Q.

Where his body was found. And where his body was found, could you see

7 8

that frorn where you were in at in your house?

9
10
11

A.
there.

Yeah, he just fell and then, he just

laid

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: any part of hirn as he was falling? A. Just like this (indicating

Was he holding

12 13 14

- put left hand

on left side of head),

his head. to that

15
16

Q.
wood?

Where was this at in relationship

17
18 19

A.
garage,

This was east of rny house and west by the neighbors. Where he fell? He fell when he in the clearing,

of the

Q.
A.
like a clearing

20
21

it's

'"
I

where he ran when he was chasing that way, through

the two and he

22 23 24 25

boys, he ran around went behind through,

Q.

the driveway

the houses

and the clearing he fell.

that he walked

that's where There's

sornething key right there,

that you

25

000161

are trying real clear. go behind behind

to tell us and I don't think we communicated You said he ran around the house, You are talking and did he did he go and

3
4 5 6 7

it, the garage?

about,

the garage,

down Colernan towards 41st Street side of the garage,

then corne back up on the west corne between the garage?

A.

or did he

the house

and that garage to the west side of

8
9
10 11 12 13

Where his car was parked, of where his car was parked,

he went

through

the driveway he went west rny yard. ground, shooting standing,

and then he made, there in on the

and then he saw the two boys standing

Then, he went through and he walked started,and through after

this little walkway,

,
i

there, and that's

when the he was

that, he fell, where

If
I
f

14 15 16 17 18
19 ,20 21

at the entrance. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Entrance, you

rnean that little pathway? Q. But, his body was found on the north side of

.1

that, into the clearing that point,

and it was not near the garage at about see

that's what we are trying to be specific

and that's why I asked whether where he's fallen'? A. seen hirn where the entrance Yeah, I could

or not you can actually

22 23 24 25

see hirn. I seen hirn, like, I by

he fell by the garage and by the clearing

way. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: There's a

26

000162

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

garage and then there's a spot and there's debris. it be by the garage or in the spot near the debris? A.

Would

The garage is here and there's an entrance

right here, that's where he fell, 'cause over here is all the debris, right here is the spot, and that's where the entrance was. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: You said

there's a little opened pathway through there? DETECTIVE OATMAN: move once he fell? move? A. I seen hirntrying to crawl and after that, I . Did he ever

Did you ever see hirnget up and try to

ran downstairs, I told my mom what happened and someone notified the police and that's when we all ran outside towards the woods where the police were (inaudible). Q. at the window? A. My mornwas outside. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: I was outside When you went down the steps, was your mom

over by the fence, where the officer was laying, on the opposite side of the fence. Q. SO, after you watched the gun fire, or heard Was it immediately

the gun fire, you saw the officer fall. thereafter that you went down the steps? A.

No, I watched a couple a more minutes. 27

000163

Q.
A. trying Q.

What did you see then? He was moving a little bit, towards --

2 3 4
5

to rnove out of the clearing. The other two rnen, the shooter and this

other man, were gone? A. Q. returned Yes. They were and disappeared already gone to 43rd Street and as you've already

6
7 8

to the north

9
10

explained? A. Yeah. And after you saw the officer try to move

11 12
13

Q.

and then didn't move, downstairs? A. Q. there? A. Yes.

was that the point you went

14
15 16

Was there

anyone downstairs?

Your mom still

17 18 19
20

My dad -- rny step-dad

was downstairs

and my

mom, she was outside. MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: (inaudible). I wish I could have done I don't know for hirn,

something

21 22 23 24

you know, we've That's Q.

already

called the cops and everything.

just too close to horne. Is there anything else you can think of Jim

I don't know. DETECTIVE OATMAN: Is there

25

28

000164

anything

else that you can think sornetimes we do.

of that, rnay be, we We've been, like, trying together. that

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11

rnissed, because

to hash this over all night trying Maybe there is, like, an obvious

to put pieces

question

or something

you think we should be asking asked you yet, like that? that you saw.

or something

that we haven't

Can you think of anything or

1s there any, like, piece of information

sornething that you can remernber that we haven't yet? A. police After the police officer

asked you

fell and before

the

came, the shooter,

he came back to the scene where hirn, and then he ran and

12 13 14
15 16 17

the officer left.

was and he kicked

DETECT1VE hirn and kicked hirn? A. saying

OATMAN:

He ran over to

Yeah, he ran over and kicked hirn, and he was something, then he took off back north where DETECT1VE OATMAN: he was.

18
19

Did you hear,

like, another shooting A.

gun shot or anything

like that, or was the

I
i
i i

20 21 22 23 24

all done? The shooting was all done. OATMAN: So, he didn't

DETECTIVE go back and fire another A. shot?

i
I

! I

(Moved head frorn side to side.) MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: He went down

25

29

000165

41st Street.
Q.

2 3
4

When he went saw hirn strike Yes.

to kick the officer,

you

actually
A.

out with his foot?

I was downstairs

At this point,

in the

5 6
7

kitchen

and I was getting

sornething to drink

and I seen hirn

rush back and he kicked

Q.

hirn. out the window, was he there

I

When you looked and yousaw

8
9

by the officer

hirn? through the back--

. I i

A.

No, he was just running

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 towards? A.
Q.

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN:

You rnean

He was coming Because

towards

hirn. and you said that

you were upstairs see hirn again.

you left and you didn't A. No.

Q.
already

When you came downstairs, outside? (Moved head up and down.) You went to the kitchen? (Moved head up and down. ) You looked out the window

your rnother was

A.
Q.
A.

Q.

there?

A.
Q.
returning, A.

(Moved head up and down. ) And that's what you saw, you saw the man the officer's body?

corning back towards Yes.

30

OU0166

1 2 3
4

DETECTIVE from the kitchen downstairs?

A.

OATMAN:

You saw that

window?

This

is after you come

Yeah,

it only took me about five seconds

to

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15

get downstairs .
Q.

Is there any reason

that you didn't

tell

this to us before?
A. Q.

(Moved head from side to side.) I arn not being things critical of you.

Uh-uh. Sometimes,

you know, we block important,

A.

out or we don't think they-are

that's why we ask. I didn't think-MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: Make sure,

everything's
A.

important. I didn't think that was important, that's

16 17 18
19.

why I didn't

say anything. DETECTlVE OATMAN: But, it was

that same guy with the tan and green? A. Yeah. DETECTIVE you saw did the shooting? A. Yes. MR. TAYLOR-LATHAN: same one with the Green Bay Packer's hat? He was the OATMAN: The same guy

20 21 22 23 24

25 A.

(Moved head up and down.)

31

DETECTIVE you watch sports

A.

OATMAN:

How would you

2
3 4

and stuff once

in a while?

Yes. DETECTIVE OATMAN: How would you

5 6 7 8
9

describe

the kick?

I mean, was it a kick like wounding like that, or was

sornething?

I am sure you have seen stuff hurt-type kick?

it, looked like an actual A.

It was a hurt-type

kick. Can you

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: demonstrate or show them? DETECTIVE he, like, rear back when he kicked hard kick? OATMAN:

10
11 12

I mean,

did like a

or was it, looked

13 14
15 16

A.

Yeah,

he was rushing

towards

hirn, as soon as

he got to him, he just kicked

Q.

him really

harde hirn at?

Do you know where He kicked

he kicked

17
18 19 20
21

A.

him about where his a-- -- weIl, hirn.

where his arm was put right by his neck, he kicked

Q.
distance happen

Did you happen to really

-- I know this is a great

to see sornething like this, hut did you

to see what kind of shoe or color? No. Is there anything No. After he threw this kick, was there more else?

22
23

A.
Q.

24
25

A.

Q.

32

000168

1 2 3

than one kick?

A.
Q.

No, just one kick. After he threw that kick, where did you see

4
5 6 7 8

hirn go? A. He just looked at hirn and then he went north

and that's when the police arrived and, I guess, that's where he, like my rnom said, watched the scene. Standing right

MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: there on West 41st Street.

Q.

9
10 11

So, this is the shooter

that's

looking back,

not one of other the guys? A.

Q.

12
13
14 15

Yeah. And you see hirn over there, you didn't see by an officer or anything? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: No, I just

hirn confronted

16 17

seen hirn across the street looking on like a spectator, like nothing happened. Q. Did you see hirn leave? MS. TAYLOR-LATHAN: walking back and forth down the street, I seen hirn I

18
19

20 21 22 23 24 25

and I hollered,

was on the sidewalk, suspects

at Terry to let hirn know one of the that, you know, so he never got

is across the street watehing,

Terry, you know, trying to help his friend,

around to it -- that's the guy in the tan coat and Green Bay hat. I don't know which one are, were apprehended 33 or,

OUU169

because
1

they all parade

up and down

our streets

continuously. 2

Q.
3 we talk to you.
4 5

I arn going to re-angle

the camera here,

so

6 7

8
9 10
11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

23

24
25 34

000170 ..