Transcription of Episode 38 Building the Future w/ Josh Rossi

Participants: Ada B! "e#ine $A!"!!% &ost

Andreas '! Antonopolou

Transcription of Episode 38 Building the Future w/ Josh Rossi

Participants: Ada B! "e#ine $A!"!!% &ost

Andreas '! Antonopolous $A!"!A!"!% (o)host *tephan+ 'urph+ $*!'!'!% (o)host 'oe "e#in $'!"!% ) Bitcoin Europe, host of European Bitcoin (on#ention- appears in first seg ent starting at Josh Rossi $J!R!% ) founder of *atoshi *.uare- creator and lead de#eloper of Pro/ect Buttonwood, appears in final seg ent starting at

Ada B! "e#ine: &i- and welco e to "et0s Tal1 Bitcoin- a twice wee1l+ show a2out the ideas- people- and pro/ects 2uilding the new digital econo + and the future of one+! '+ na e is Ada B! "e#ine- and toda+ we0#e got a h+2rid episode! Josh Rossi is an interesting gu+- founder of the *atoshi *.uare o#e ent! 3 caught up with hi the da+ after the 3nside Bitcoins e#ent to tal1 a2out co unit+- currenc+ and software that will connect e#er+one to the power of glo2al local! But first we chec1 in with 'oe "e#in of the con#ention!eu- a ulti) da+ Bitcoin conference ta1ing place in A sterda ! Then 34 /oined 2+ *tephanie and Andreas to discuss differentiating 2etween good coins- 2ad coins and politicall+ undesira2le coins! 3s it nann+is 5 3s it good faith5 (ould what0s e#en 2een proposed e#en sol#e the pro2le 5 6e tal1 a2out it! 7isit us at at letstal12itcoin!co for our dail+ guest 2log- show archi#e and- of course- tipping options! En/o+ the show! 6ith ore and ore Bitcoin conferences popping up- toda+ we0re /oined 2+ 'oe "e#in! 'oe is putting on the European Bitcoin (on#ention in A sterda later in *epte 2er! 'oe "e#in: The conference is 2asicall+ one to increase awareness of digital currenc+ technolog+- so what0#e we0#e done is we4#e ta1en the things people lo#e a2out conferences and con#entions- and we4#e erged the into one

sea less con#ention! 6e ha#e well 1nown spea1ers that people want to hear2usiness en and entrepreneurs that people want to connect with- and 8we9 are organising a TE: e#ent around the Bitcoin co unit+! A!"!: *o how an+ da+s is +our e#ent5 the ;<th to the ;8th of *epte 2er!

'!"!: 3t4s a three da+ long e#ent fro

A!"!: And so- who is 1e+noting it5 6hat are so e of the things people would see if the+ attend5 '!"!: 6e0#e got => spea1ers- ore and ore co ing on e#er+ da+! *o e 1e+notes are going to 2e 2+ (harlie *hre fro the Bitcoin Foundation of Bitinstant! 6e ha#e so e econo ists! 6e0#e in#ited the :utch (entral Ban1! The European (entral Ban1 will 2e spea1ing! ?ou ight ha#e heard in the last couple wee1s 8that9 @er an+ has accepted Bitcoin as a legal currenc+ and 8it9 will 2e taAed! The people and the law+ers and the law fir s in#ol#ed in that are going to co e and tal1 on a panel a2out that! A!"!: *o it sounds li1e +ou ha#e a di#erse focus with this conference! 3s it going to 2e ultiple trac1s for the tal1s or is it all /ust one stage5 '!"!: 6e0re loo1ing at a 3 da+- di#erse spea1er set! *o the first da+ we are going to do new 2usiness- second da+ regulation and securit+- and the 3rd da+- startup co unities and entrepreneurs within the networ1! A!"!: :uring our pre)inter#iew- +ou entioned to e that +ou were tr+ing to ta1e all the 2enefits of a conference and all the 2enefits of a con#ention- cut out the 2oring stuff- and tr+ to ha#e this all)good)stuff e#ent! *o what is the 2oring stuff that +ou4re not doing at this e#ent5 '!"!: Right- Ada - 34 sure +ou4#e 2een to conferences- and 34 sure +ou4#e 2een 2ored! 6e0re not gi#ing spea1ers an hour to tal1 a2out the athe atics 2ehind Bitcoin! 6e0re gi#ing interesting spea1ers an+where fro > to B8 inutes to ha er ho e the ideas which are i portant and rele#ant to the audience and the Bitcoin co unit+ at large! Reall+ educating the people that are in the Bitcoin co unit+- such as the European (entral Ban1 and the polic+ ad#isorsas well as people who ha#e 2een in#ol#ed in Bitcoin since it was founded! A!"!: *ounds li1e a good ti e! *o what are the dates of the e#ent5 '!"!: The dates are ;<th of *epte 2er to the ;8th of *epte 2er! A!"!: And do +ou ha#e a we2site for +our e#ent5 '!"!: Theconference!eu A!"!: Theconference!eu '!"!: Alternati#el+- we are happ+ to announce we0re going to 2e li#estrea ing the whole thing online! *o 8if9 +ou can4t a1e it- or +ou want to hit up one da+- a

couple hours- BC that online!

inutes- whate#er +ou want to hear- +ou0ll 2e a2le to access

A!"!: That4s aweso eD 3s that going to 2e a free ser#ice5 '!"!: *ure! A!"!: @reat! '!"!: 6e0re not loo1ing to screw people for one+ on this e#ent! 6e0re loo1ing to a1e a great e#ent that0s successful to an+ people in different en#iron ents to /ust get ani ated with the Bitcoin co unit+! A!"!: *o- on that note- when it co es to these conferences- we reall+ see prices all o#er the place! 6here does the European Bitcoin con#ention fit into that scale5 '!"!: For an+ pa+ ent conferences and trul+ an+ conferences- li1e +ou said+ou4re going to see prices fro >C euro to B>CC euro! 6e are B>C euro- lean 2udget! 3 thin1 that4s fair- and for #endors- it4s going to 2e E>C euro! A!"!: &ow an+ people are +ou anticipating are going to attend +our e#ent5 ain hall- a2out ;CC out

'!"!: 34 anticipating a full house! 3t can hold 3>C in the the 2ar! *o- let0s sa+ >CC out the 2ar!

A!"!: (o pared to so e of the other e#ents we are tal1ing a2out- this is actuall+ a fairl+ inti ate setting- e#en though it4s a 3 da+ e#ent! '!"!: 6e want to get people to networ1 and create lasting connections at this conference! A!"!: 'oe "e#in fro the European Bitcoin (on#ention! Than1 +ou #er+ /oining us toda+ on "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin! '!"!: Fo pro2le ! Than1s for ha#ing e! uch for

Andreas '! Antonopolous: @a#in Andreson is the chief scientist of the Bitcoin Foundation- and also the lead de#eloper for Bitcoin! &e writes- in "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin4s tal1 foru on reddit- Gshould Bitcoin users 2e free to run coin trac1ing software that tells the whether or not the+ are recei#ing dirt+ 2itcoins5H Andreson argues that running such software puts us on a slipper+ slope that will ine#ita2l+ lead to andator+ filters created and aintained 2+ our go#ern ents! &e also said that the pattern in the past is that people are willing to gi#e up a little li2ert+ for con#enience or safet+- that ost people won4t consider the long ter ris1s! 3s that reasona2le5 Ir is it /ust another for of nann+is 5 3t sounds to e a lot li1e the Hwe 1now whats 2est for +ouH argue ent used to /ustif+ all sorts of awful policies! 34ll pla+ de#il0s ad#ocate a little 2it: a+2e the slipper+ slope argu ent is wrong! 'a+2e dirt+ coin trac1ing fro co peting non)go#ern ental organiJations would 2e a good thing for the world! 'a+2e supporting a free ar1et of organiJations perfor ing those ser#ices will a1e it less li1el+ that

go#ern ents decide the+ ust step in and andate a solution that the+ create! *o- coin trac1ing- is it nann+is to sa+ we shouldn0t do it5 3s it nann+is to do it5 6hat do +ou gu+s thin15 A!"!: 3 thin1 that the li.uidit+ a1es this the hardest .uestion to answer possi2le! 3 ean- seriousl+- this is the thing ) 2ecause originall+- when we tal1ed a2out this idea of tainted coins ) that4s what we0re tal1ing a2out here- a wa+ to differentiate 2etween coins that ha#e 2een 42ad4- howe#er +ou want to define K2ad4- as opposed to coins that are nor al ) that are not tainted! 3f +ou can tell a tainted coin fro a non)tainted coin then +ou can sa+ GIL- well- this one is not worth it to e- 2ecause it4s tainted- or 3 won4t accept it at allH! *o the pro2le with this- of course- that4s 2een pointed out to e 2+ a nu 2er of listeners- is that: how can +ou tell that when it gets reported- it is still owned 2+ the person who actuall+ did the stealing5 3f it4s alread+ 2een sold 2+ the person who did the stealing- then is it actuall+ a good thing to 2e a2le to trac1 it- or is it /ust confusing the issue5 Because if 3 steal so ething fro +ou- 2ut then 3 i ediatel+ sell it to *tephanieand *tephanie is holding it at the ti e that it gets ar1ed as tainted- she didn0t actuall+ do an+thing wrong! *he 2ought it fro e ) she thought it was a nor al Bitcoin and- at that point- +ou hadn0t reported it stolen +et! @i#en how pseudon+ ous Bitcoin is- can a s+ste li1e that e#en function5 A!A!: 3 thin1 it4s pro2a2l+ i portant to define what we ean 2+ 4tainted4- 2ecause that4s the 2ac1ground to this con#ersation! E#er+ coin that4s created in Bitcoin has an origin, it has a 2loc1 in which it was ined- the 2loc1 in which it was created- and fro there it gets gi#en or loc1ed with the 1e+ of the iner who created that 2loc1- and that iner usuall+ spends it fairl+ .uic1l+ ) and so it enters the circulation of the Bitcoin econo +! *o that iner sells it to so eone and then the+ sell it to so eone else- etc- etc! ?ou can ta1e an+ transaction and +ou can trace it 2ac1wards if +ou li1e- all the wa+ 2ac1 to the original 2loc1 fro which part of those Bitcoins were ined! *o e#er+thing is trac1a2le! The idea of tainted coins to 2uild a s+ste where2+ if coin is stolen- li1e in so e of the 2ig heists we0#e seen- then the specific transactions where that coin was stolen are ar1ed and then su2se.uent transactions fro there are filtered- not honouredar1ed as suspicious- whate#er! Presu a2l+- in the scenario +ou descri2edAda - *tephanie would ha#e so e 1ind of dut+- or 2urden- or responsi2ilit+- to chec1 the list the list of tainted coins 2efore 2u+ing an+ coins- or she would eApect her software client to do so! 3s that the idea5 A!"!!: 6e0re tal1ing a2out a nor al user here- so eone who starts up Bitcoin once e#er+ couple of da+s or the+ 1eep it on all of the ti e 2ut isn0t necessaril+ constantl+ staring at it! 3f 3 so ehow anaged to co pro ise that account and get the 2itcoins out of it- there is no dela+ 2etween when 3 can sell the on an eAchange- and there are lots of eAchanges where 3 can sell the on 2efore +ou ha#e reported the stolen! *o that4s the .uestion: if a coin has 2een stolen- is it fair to punish a person who recei#ed it further down the chain that didn0t actuall+ do the stealing the sel#es5 Because there is not reall+ a wa+ to pre#ent that ) and e#en if +ou did- e#en if +ou said- HIL- fi#e inutes after an+ coin ha#e 2een stolen- we so ehow agicall+ 1now a2out it and can rel+ on that BCCMH ) still-

what4s to stop- in that > inute window- e fro /ust selling all of the coins and o#ing on5 Because then- 3 no longer 2ear an+ of the ris1 as the person who actuall+ co itted the cri e- and +et 30#e alread+ collected + reward for it ) and so eone else will 2e punished- potentiall+- 2ut that doesn0t atter to e 2ecause 30 a cri inal! A!A!: And then ta1e that fi#e inutes- and reduce it to the ini u a ount of ti e for propagation across the Bitcoin networ1! Essentiall+- what +ou0re sa+ing is that if 3 sell the 2itcoin 2efore the Kthis 2itcoin is stolen0 essage propagates out ) that window is the perilous window ) +ou ight- in fact- ha#e to enforce a wait period- which would pro2a2l+ 2e ar1et)dri#en- where2+ ) 2ecause this s+ste is in place ) +ou would ha#e to hold on to an+ 2itcoin for a period of ti e to .uarantine it- to a1e sure that it isn0t stolen 2efore +ou sell it! 3 don0t 1now- 3 see a lot of practical pro2le s with i ple enting such a taint- 2ut + ain concern is this: if +ou i ple ent filters in the software that allow ar2itrar+ coins to 2e filtered and ar1ed as unsuita2le for spending- 3 thin1 what will end up happening is when +ou ha#e such a echanis - that echanis will 2e the 2asis for law that will force people to 2lac1list coins! *o- if +ou ha#e that capa2ilit+- then +ou0re going to get the e.ui#alent of what +ou see on the internet with :'(A ta1e down re.uests- where +ou will 2e o2liged ) if +ou recei#e notice fro the go#ern ent that coins are tainted ) to report- 2loc1- filterwhate#er! 30 not sa+ing e#er+one will do that, 30 /ust sa+ing that if +ou put the capa2ilit+ in the software- doesn0t that create the infrastructure for so eone to appl+ a law to a1e it andator+5 3 don0t 1now if it4s nann+is to worr+ a2out that ) 30 not sa+ing we should do this 2ecause it0s not good- or that 3 1now 2etter ) 30 /ust eApressing a concern- and 3 a+ 2e a2solutel+ wrong a2out thisa+2e filtering is perfectl+ fine! 30 /ust sa+ing that that 1ind of infrastructure can 2e eAploited 2+ go#ern ents! *tephanie 'urph+: There is alwa+s the potential for a technolog+ li1e this to 2e isused! 3nnocent people are going to get caught up in it if it0s eant to stop legiti ate fraud and theft! 3t is going to catch so e innocent people in the s+ste - and 3 don0t thin1 there is an+thing wrong with pointing that out! Andreas+ou didn0t sa+ that this should 2e a feature of Bitcoin and no2od+ should 2e a2le to opt out of it! ?ou /ust said Ghe+- these are so e concerns 3 ha#e- and 3 thin1 people should 2e aware of this 2efore the+ decide wholeheartedl+ to e 2race a technolog+ li1e thisH! 3 definitel+ don0t thin1 it could 2e considered nann+is unless +ou are sa+ing that this should 2e a feature and no2od+ should 2e allowed to opt out! A!A!: 30 sa+ing 2eware of i ple enting features that can 2e turned against the networ1 itself in the future! Beware of i ple enting features that create points of control! 30 not sa+ing Hdon0t i ple ent the H- and 30 not sa+ing that 3 ) or an+one else ) has a right or an+ 2asis to sa+ otherwise! This is a consensus networ1, if people reall+ want a filtering feature- this will happen! 6hat 30 sa+ing is this: 3 2elie#e strongl+ in Bitcoin neutralit+! 3 thin1 its one of the ost powerful ele ents of this networ1- or features of Bitcoin, the fact that no atter who the sender- recipient- or content of a transaction- the transaction is

honoured 2+ the networ1 as long as it0s #alid and contains a #alid proof of wor1! That4s a huge departure fro eAisting pa+ ent s+ste s! 3f +ou put in place capa2ilities to start filtering specific coins- specific t+pes of transactions- or specific senders and recipients- that threatens net neutralit+ in a wa+ that go#ern ents can 2uild regulations on top of that infrastructure that se#erl+ restricts 2oth sources and destinations of pa+ ents! 3 lo#e Bitcoin 2ecause it allows e to contri2ute to things that perhaps a+ not 2e popular- li1e- sa+6i1ilea1s! 3 thin1 that4s a #er+ i portant freedo of speech capa2ilit+! Fow- who sa+s that a go#ern ent doesn0t pass a law that if +ou send an+ one+ to 6i1i"ea1s- that coin4s tainted5 A!"!: 6ell- right now there4s not a possi2ilit+- 2ut that4s eAactl+ right, this is- of course- the concern that i ediatel+ co es up when +ou start tal1ing a2out this stuff ) once a capa2ilit+ is there- it can 2e used for an+thing- and that could 2e the intended purpose- 2ut if the infrastructure eAists- then it can also 2e used for unintended purposes- li1e what +ou4re tal1ing a2out there- which is 2loc1ing things for political reasons! A!A!: E#er+2od+ else in the world would 2e a2le to recei#e and spend 6i1i"ea1s coins- 2ut N* citiJens would 2e prohi2ited 2ecause it would 2e considered a aterial support of god)1nows)what! That4s reall+ what 34 worried that if +ou i ple ent censorship capa2ilities- or capa2ilities that can 2e used for censorship- li1e functions- the+ will 2e! *i ilar argu ents with ser#ice pro#iders, if +ou don4t want people to do sur#eillance- don4t store logs! 3f +ou don4t ha#e the logs- +ou can4t respond to a su2poena! 3 thin1 the sa e thing applies to Bitcoin, if +ou don4t want people appl+ing censorship- don4t 2uild censorship tools into the networ1! A!"!: For e this is a necessaril+ a2out censorship! 3 thin1 that it4s a2out effecti#e decision) a1ing- and a2out effecti#e s+ste s- and if we4re going to put so ething into a protocol that is alread+ .uite good at what it does- we should a1e sure that the things we4re adding to it can actuall+ deli#er the results that we want the to deli#er! For e- that4s what 3 1eep co ing 2ac1 to, that4s what ade e change + ind a2out a2out coin tainting! 83t9 wasn4t that 3 thin1 people who steal coins should 2e a2le to spend the at full #alue! The concern is that a1ing these changes won4t stop that fro happening- and it has all these other repercussions that are not necessaril+ great for Bitcoin o#erall! 3f we could figure out an effecti#e wa+ to do this without ha#ing to do so ething li1e resort to an hour)long .uarantine li1e +ou4re tal1ing a2out- Andreas in theor+- that sounds li1e it could wor1- 2ut in practice- what +ou4ll find is that the a/orit+ of people who are ha#ing their coin stolen- as we4#e tal1ed a2out 2efore- it4s 2ecause the+ ha#e wea1 passwords- if it4s on their co puter- or the+ ha#e a co pro ised co puter or so ething li1e that ) and so these are the people who will not notice- an hour later- that the+4#e had a 2unch of coin stolen fro the and 1now how to report it! These are the people who will chec1 2ac1 a few da+s later- and then 2e li1e Goh- the+4#e 2een stolenH- and then report the - and then whoe#er happens to 2e holding the coins at that ti e well- the+4re screwed! 3f we could figure out a wa+ to do this without actuall+ 2rea1ing the wa+ the s+ste

wor1s now- and so that actuall+ sol#ed the pro2le we4re tr+ing to sol#e which is people spending coins after the+4#e 2een stolen- then it would 2e worth ha#ing the con#ersation- 2ut until we get to a point li1e that- where there are actuall+ ideas on the ta2le that could wor1 without reall+ causing pro2le s- 3 /ust don4t see it! A!A!: Thin1 a2out it in a slightl+ different wa+! Forget- for a o ent- the fact that this would potentiall+ 2e a eans for a future s+ste of censorship, it funda entall+ changes the non)re#ersi2le characteristic of Bitcoin 2+ shifting the 2urden of securit+- and confir ing that Bitcoin aren4t tainted- to the recipient instead of the sender! That is a reall+ 2ig change- 2ecause now- if +ou recei#e 2itcoin- +ou4re no longer sure that +ou own that 2itcoin- 2ecause it a+ ha#e 2een reported stolen- or a+2e reported stolen after +ou recei#e it! 'erchants are no longer guaranteed that transactions with Bitcoin are non)re#ersi2le2ecause if it4s reported stolen- now the+ are re#ersi2le- which now shifts the 2urden- which changes the entire trust odel of the networ1! 3t4s one of those things that a+ 2e har ful 8or9 a+ 2e har less- 2ut certainl+ should not 2e done without #er+ careful consideration- 2ecause it has i portant i plications! (Intermission ad break) Fe ale #oice: 'ore than three hundred thousand users and counting trust Bloc1chain!info! 3t4s a 2itcoin wallet ser#ice- and a wealth of Bitcoin infor ationand it4s co pletel+ free to use! 6ith a Bloc1chain!info wallet- +ou4ll get the con#enience of a we2 wallet and the securit+ of a des1top client! Bloc1chain!info is also a 2loc1 eAplorer, +ou can use it to see Bitcoin transactions in real)ti echec1 the 2alance of an+ Bitcoin address- and #iew an+ hand+ Bitcoin charts all for free! *ee what the+ ha#e to offer toda+ at Bloc1chain!info! (second advert) Jason Ling: &i- this is Jason Ling- founder at *ean4s Iutpost- and +ou are listening to "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin! *ean4s Iutpost is a ho eless outreach in Pensacola- Floridaand we are proudl+ powered 2+ Bitcoin! To date- o#er B3-CCC eals ha#e 2een fed to the ho eless in our area- all purchased with Bitcoin and through the generosit+ of the cr+ptocurrenc+ co unit+! Read ore a2out us at seansoutpost!co ! Food- shelter- 2itcoin- e#er+2od+! *eansoutpost!co ! A!"!: *o- wrapping up the conference inter#iews- Ada B! "e#ine here- and "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin! Right now 34 /oined 2+ Josh Rossi- of the *atoshi *.uare Pro/ect and the Buttonwood *oftware Pro/ect! 3s that the na e of it5 Josh Rossi: ?eah- Product Buttonwood is the software that facilitates- or hopefull+ will facilitate- open)air person)to)person eAchanges! A!"!: *o +ou4re the origination of that concept applied to Bitcoin *atoshi *.uare is +our inno#ation at this particular point- right5 J!R!: ?eah- +ou could call it that, 3 thin1 that4s #er+ generous- to gi#e co ing up with the idea ) e credit for

A!"!: 6ell- +ou

ade it happen!

J!R!: 6ell- a+2e- +es- 2ut 3 2asicall+ went to a eetup group- and said Gwhat if we all got together at the sa e ti e and the sa e place to trade 2itcoins5H! 34d used "ocalBitcoins once- and 3 had an eAchange- 3 used to trade on Bitfloor- and 34#e had so e oddities 8and9 other eAchanges- 2ut "ocal2itcoins is great- and it4s a #er+ popular ser#ice, 3 thin1 it4s aweso e- 2ut 3 thin1 that a+2e if +ou4#e alread+ 2een doing 2itcoins for a while- +ou ight feel ore co forta2le with so ething li1e that- 2ut it +ou ha#en4t- then 3 don4t thin1 it4s pro2a2l+ gonna 2e the 2est entr+ point for a person who4s ne#er 2een it it 2efore! ?ou tell the G eet up with a stranger to do financial transactions- one)on)oneH, the user 8is9 gonna feel li1e G3 don4t 1now if this is for eH, 3 2asicall+ /ust said if +ou ha#e a group en#iron ent- si ilar to dating- when girls are ner#ous +ou can sa+ Glet4s ha#e a group dateH ) in the sa e sense- +ou want to ha#e other people around! 3t4s 8a9 #er+ 2old person who4s gonna tr+ to sca so eone while thirt+ other people are watching hi ! A!"!: *o there are so ething li1e ten 8or9 ele#en *atoshi *.uare e#ents that go on around the world- at this point) J!R!: ?eah- it has 2een spreading li1e wildfire, 3 actuall+ was as1ed- at this conference- to head down to Atlanta- where a couple large Bitcoin co panies are located- and start a *atoshi *.uare there the+ were li1e Gif +ou4d co e down and get the 2all rolling- we4ll 1eep it going after +ou lea#e- 2ut whate#er +ou need- it would 2e nice to ha#e +ou 2e there for the first oneH! *o 3 said Gof course Atlanta4s close- and 34#e ne#er 2een to Atlanta- 34d li1e to chec1 it outH! 3 thin1 that e#er+one is latching onto this idea! Ine of the things that 2rings people to Bitcoin- or once the+ get into Bitcoin- one of the things that the+ reall+ appreciate a2out it is Goh- 34#e found a 2unch of cool people that ha#e the sa e frustrations as e regarding onetar+ polic+H- which- 3 1now- sounds li1e we4re alread+ /ust appealing to nerds right there- li1e Glet4s all get together and tal1 a2out onetar+ polic+H ) A!"!: 3sn4t it funn+ that onetar+ polic+ is a nerd+ thing- now5

J!R!: ?ou can also sa+- G34 /ust reall+ interested in cr+ptograph+H- 2ut 2esides that- it4s /ust fun! People ha#e a good ti e! 6e had a gu+ wearing a gauntlet with a 2atter+ strapped to his 2elt- ining at *atoshi *.uare the other da+ ) +ou usuall+ see so e fa iliar faces fro the Bitcoin scene- li1e (harlie *chre ight stop 2+- Fred 6ilson fro Nnion *.uare 7entures stopped 2+ ) A!"!: Fow- this is ore specificall+ the )

J!R!: The Few ?or1 one- +eah! At the Berlin one- the+ ha#e countr+ singers singing Bitcoin songs! 3t4s whate#er an+ group wants it to 2e- and it4s #er+ in 1eeping with a #oluntar+)is entalit+! 3 find that with a decentraliJed thing- (hina forc8ing9 order on it is i1e tr+ing to hurt cats! Also- it4s li1e- Gwhat +ou gain 2+ doing that5H ) +ou stifle whate#er inno#ations other people are gonna co e up with! *o 3 /ust sa+ Ge#er+one do what +ou want to do- if +ou wnt + ad#ise or + help- if +ou want to 2enefit fro an+ ista1es 34#e ade along the wa+ and get the 2enefit of

+ eAperience- please contact- 34 ore than happ+ to help! 3t4s a touch unrelated- 2ut 3 thin1 that it4s all a2out 2uilding this localiJed networ1 that has a glo2al reach- right5 A!"!: Right- the glo2al local thing5 J!R!: ?es- eAactl+! 3t4s 2een et with a lot of enthusias - and that4s one of the things that- as uch fun as the conference was- 3 don4t see people cheering and getting all eAcited a2out Ghow do we co pl+ with Fin(EF regulations5H ) those things are i portant- 2ut the people 2ehind the scenes! The+4re not i portant for people who are tr+ing to prosel+tiJe! People who are tr+ing to prosel+tiJe- 34 not sa+ing that +ou downpla+ this ) A!"!: That4s an interesitng word that +ou4re using there- prosel+tiJe! GAd#ocac+H- 3 understand that- 2ut ) J!R!: 3t4s not + fault! 3t4s the words that people 2een using latel+! There was a Financial Ti es article that was specificall+ called Gthe Bitcoin 2elie#ersH- and the+ called the GBitcoin e#angelistsH, 3 thin1 Gprosel+tiJingH is slightl+ toned down fro there in generalD 3 thin1 that it is al ost li1e a 2elief s+ste 3 guess +ou could sa+ an+ one+ is a shared 2elief s+ste ! 6e all ha#e trust in this one+ and we all 2elie#e it to 2e #alua2le- and we eApect that in the futurepeople will ta1e it fro us and with Bitcoin- that ight ta1e a little ore trust than 8with9 so ething that people ha#e grown up using- 2ut the end result is the sa e! 3 thin1 of it li1e that Berlin encla#e ) a new countr+ has 2een for ed- and now there4s s all little neigh2orhoods and poc1ets of people who are li1e i igrants fro a different land ) Gwe4re fro Bitcoin land- and we stic1 together- and we ha#e our ownH ) 34#e ne#er seen so an+ people use the word GfiatH 2eforeD A!"!: Ine of the things that was a real the e at the conference +esterda+ was this idea that in order to 2e a serious pla+er in space- +ou ha#e to co pl+- and in order to co pl+- +ou ha#e a lot of one+ to throw at the pro2le ! That4s true on the co pan+ side especiall+ for eAchanges- that was reall+ specificall+ what 34 tal1ing a2out here ) 2ut for people use eAchanges- too, if +ou go out and tr+ to 2u+ three dollars4 worth of Bitcoin fro @oA- the+4re not gonna sell +ou three dollars4 worth of 2itcoin! There4s a a/or 2arrier to entr+ there! J!R!: ?es- true! That4s eAactl+ where we slot into this space! First of all- for all the serious pla+ers- the+ need to do this- 2ut we4re fun! 6e4re not that serious- to 2e honest with +ou! 3t was originall+ an ho age to the 2eginnings of 6all *treet- and who 1nows where it go fro where it started in its hu 2le 2eginnings- 2ut- at the sa e ti e- 3 totall+ agree with +ou, the eAchange odel is not 2uilt for casual people who wanna chec1 out the space- who are /ust curious, if +ou tell e it4s three wee1s- and it4s a twent+)fi#e dollar wire charge +ou4#e alread+ said that if 34 not gonna 2u+ a+2e ;>C dollars4 worth- that4s a ten percent fee /ust to get the 2itcoins! There are other solutions too ) 3 ean- 't! @oA will sell +ou three dollars- it4s /ust do +ou wanna spend ;> dollars and three wee1s /ust to get three dollars4 worth of 2itcoins5 (oin2ase is pro2a2l+ a little easier- 2ut e#en then a

gu+ who wrote that @igaI' article was li1e Gwell- 3 thought 3 was gonna 2e a2le to get those coins- 2ut it turns out 3 loc1ed in the price right now 2ut 3 won4t 2e a2le to get the coins for four da+sH ) and luc1il+ the+ did /ust recentl+ release- if +ou ha#e a tier ; account- which in#ol#es a prett+ in#asi#e 2ac1ground chec1) A!"!: 6ell- it4s in#asi#e co pared to Bitcoin- 2ut co pared to the standard financial s+ste - it4s the sa e thing! 3t4s li1e +ou4re appl+ing the sa e standards to things that don4t wor1 with those standards! 3t4s an interesting odel that we are following! Ine of the the criticis s that we hear people le#el against the *atoshi *.uare or in)person eetup sort of thing is that is incredi2l+ inefficient fro a 2road use perspecti#e! 3 was wondering what would +ou thin1 a2out that5 J!R!: 3 totall+ agree with the D :o 3 thin1 that BitPa+ should start using *atoshi *.uared and 2asicall+ li.uidate all the erchant transactions5 Pro2a2l+ not! The+ pro2a2l+ want to do it ore than once a wee1) in Berlin4s case- once a onth- or "A 3 thin1 3 thin1 Berlin eets- a+2e- a little ore often ) this is- in large parta pu2lic ser#ice 2+ people who lo#e Bitcoins li1e Iwen @unden- li1e Jonathan 'ohan! 6e ha#e people who actuall+ 2itcoins, this isn4t their 2usiness! This is their ho22+- their passion! The+4re showing up! The+ en/o+ a icrocos of the large)scale financial ar1ets that we get to see on a s all scale 2ut at the sa e ti e it4s li1e- Ghow also people gonna get in the space5H! 3f +ou tell the that the+ ha#e to go through 't! @oA- +ou4re shutting the door on pro2a2l+ OCM of the people who4#e heard of it- 2ecause the+4re /ust not willing to go /u p through those /ust to get their first 2itcoin- which the+4re not e#en sure that the+ want +et! The+4#e ne#er seen a Bitcoin transaction, the+ don4t 1now how it wor1s! Nsuall+- the 2est wa+ to learn a2out so ething is pla+ with it! A lot of people are #isual learners- so one of the 2ig functions of *atoshi *.uare is G 3 heard a2out 2itcoins- and 3 heard a2out this eetup group- 3 figured 34d to stop 2+ and see what happensH! 3t4s a consistent point of contact! E#er+ 'onda+- +ou can go to *atoshi *.uare- and +ou can find so eone who will teach a2out 2itcoins! ?ou can find so eone who +ou can 2u+ a 2itcoin fro - if +ou 8ha#e9 2een into 2itcoins a while- or +ou4re a iner and +ou ha#e a phone 2ill- +ou can pro2a2l+ sell +our 2itcoins for cash! The 2usinesses ha#e the responsi2ilit+ to act professionall+ as a 2usiness! Those responsi2ilities and o2ligations don4t appl+ to indi#iduals- unlessas an indi#idual- this is +our 2usiness in which case- again- +ou4re now a 2usiness so- if +ou4re an indi#idual- which 2ranch of the go#ern ent is in charge of selling sofas on (raigslist5 6ho regulates this ar1et5 3t used to 2e- at least in this countr+- that pri#ate contracts 2etween two people was the highest for of law! 3 can 2asicall+ enter into an agree ent with an+one else- and as long as it4s not doing an+thing against the cri inal code- as long as the+ are of sound indthen we can a1e whate#er deal we want! 3 can sell +ou + car for a dollar, it4s + right to sell +ou + car for a dollar- and if 3 agree to it- then it is no one else4s 2usiness what these two people decide upon- right5 For ost of histor+- it4s 2een the fact that two people who enter into an agree ent can 2ind the sel#es to whate#er agree ent the+ want! 8with9 Businesses- it4s no longer a s+ etrical relationship 2etween a 2usiness and a consu er- so that4s wh+ regulation steps in to sa+ G+ou ha#e 2ig ad#antage- +ou ha#e uch larger econo ies of scale the+ can pla+ with- and +ou can use infor ation ar2itrageH- and +ou4re a2le to

eAploit ore efficiencies than an a#erage consu er can! *o one needs to loo1 out for the little gu+- 2ut when 2oth of the people are little gu+s- the+ can 2oth loo1 out for the sel#esH! That4s the 1e+ to it- that4s what *atoshi *.uare does- is it sa+s Gwell- not e#er+one in Bitcoin is a 2usiness- there are people in#ol#edH! 3n large part- it was a narrati#e that was fra ed to capture the i agination of people who are interested in finance, people who are interested in Few ?or1 (it+ old)school stoc1 ar1et stuff! (Intermission ad break) Fe ale #oice: Eas+:F* is the *wiss ar + 1nife for +our do ain na es- helping eet their custo ers4 indi#idual needs since BOO8! Eas+:F* has 2een an outspo1en critic of *IPA and (3*PA! Eas+:F* was an earl+ supporter Bitcoin- and now the+ are proud to sponsor this show! :o 2usiness with a co pan+ that shares +our #alues! @et a B3M discount when +ou pa+ with Bitcoin! @o to 2itcoin!eas+dns!co and 2e sure to use discount code "TB! (Second ad) Fe ale #oice: "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin is heard each wee1 2+ thousands of people who are participating in the new digital econo +! Iur listener 2ase of 2itcoin ownersiners- in#estors- technologists- and erchants is growing fast! 6e offer a li ited nu 2er of short ad#ertising slots in each show to 1eep our listeners engaged and to pro#ide aAi u i pact for our sponsors! 3f +ou4d li1e to tal1 to us a2out "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin- send us an e ail to sponsorsPletstal12itcoin!co ! A!"!: *atoshi *.uare- at its core- is a2out accessi2ilit+- a2out education- and a2out pu2lic eAistence and proof that we are not so e sort of odd su2set- 2ut- in fact- are nor al people who /ust happened to 2e earl+ to this part+ that we call Bitcoin! J!R!: EAactl+! People ha#e alwa+s said G2ut it4s a #irtual currenc+D That4s so anachronisticD This is the currenc+ of the future- and +ou gu+s are eeting up the wa+ the+ did 2ac1 in the B8CCsH ) and 34 li1e- G+41now- certain things don4t scaleH ) people alwa+s said Gprett+ soon- no one4s e#er gonna ha#e to go to the office an+ ore- we can all /ust re ote inH- 2ut once the+4#e tried that- the+4#e realiJed that +ou4re not 2uilding tea s the sa e wa+ used to- and it4s not the sa e effect when +ou write an e ail as it is when +ou sit with so eone and tal1 to the o#er lunch, these are the 1ind of things that don4t translate into digital ediu s as easil+- and as readil+- and that4s 1ind of what *atoshi *.uare sa+sis: Gon one hand- first of all- there4s two sides to e#er+ transaction and to 2e honest- it hasn4t 2een onl+ 2itcoins and dollars, there4s 2een 2itcoins and t)shirtsthere 2een 2itcoins and sil#er coins and that4s not an alt coin- that4s actuall+ a precious etal- sil#er ) one gu+ showed up 2ecause he wanted to sell 2loc1 erupters- that was the gu+ who was ining in person- so there4s alwa+s two sides to e#er+ transaction! 3f one side is 2itcoin- that4s great- 2ut there4s no wa+ to o#e dollars- and o2#iousl+- Bitcoin is the solution to our pro2le s with o#ing one+ digitall+- so 3 can4t reall+ rel+ on the digital pro2le s that 34 tr+ing to sol#e in order use 2itcoin- right5 *o +ou run the situation of Gwell- 2itcoins are

great- 2ut how do 3 get into this s+ste 5H Ince 34 in it- 3 can 2u+- 3 can sell- 3 can do whate#er 3 want with the - 2ut getting in#ol#ed in the first place is still- 3 thin1- a prett+ steep 2arrier to entr+- not onl+ educationall+- 2ut the actual technological process- or regulator+ process- that +ou go through! 3 /ust wanna a1e it as eas+ as possi2le for people to get 1nowledge a2out 2itoins and actuall+ o2tain 2itcoins! A!"!: *o- Josh- in addition to originating this idea and getting the first one going+ou also are wor1ing on software solutions to power and ena2le not onl+ +our own e#ent 2ut e#ents fro around the world! (an +ou tell us a little 2it a2out what t+pe of featureset +ou thin1 is re.uired in order to a1e this happen5 J!R!: 3t4s called Pro/ect Buttonwood! 34ll su up the three things that we4re tr+ing to address- which is nu 2er B% distri2uting and disse inating infor ation in order to ha#e a good #aluation- using /ust 't! @oA4s price leads to insta2ilit+ in the prices- 2ecause Goh no- their lag is up to BC inutes nowDH- all of a sudden people are /ust du ping coins on @oA- and then what does that lead to5 Fot eAactl+ as accurate of a picture! Just 2ecause so e people are selling coins on @oA- and the prices drop there- there are four other eAchanges- and there4s hundreds of thousands 3 2elie#e ) of other people who are not willing to sell at that price- 2ut in so e wa+s- their #oices heard in the 2asic de ocrac+ of Gwhat is a 2itcoin worth right now5H ) 2asicall+ there4s one #oice- at least for a long ti e it was one #oice- who was sa+ing what a 2itcoin 8is9 worth! A!"!: *o what4s the solution for this5 6here +ou draw the infor ation fro 5 J!R!: Fro 2oots the ground! 3f 3 could as1 BCC-CCC people Gwhat is a 2itcoin worth to +ou5 6hat would +ou 2u+ one for5 6hat would +ou sell one for5H ) and it4s a networ1 effect- 2ecause as ore and ore people are pro#iding this infor ationost people ight start 2+ sa+ing G34ll sell it to +ou at ;M a2o#e Bitsta p- and 34ll 2u+ fro +ou at ;M 2elow Bitsta p- 2ecause 3 ha#e an account at Bitsta p! But as ore and ore people that +ou 1now personall+ and ore and ore people that +ou see across the world- that +ou ha#e access to trade with the - are all sa+ing Gfor e 34 not reall+ interested in selling- unless it4s li1e QB;CH- that4s /ust e- though- and other people are gonna 2e e 2oldened to sa+ G+eah 34 not reall+ interested in selling- 34 in this for the long)ter - 3 thin1 that this is wa+ ore #alua2le than what it4s trading right nowH ) the wisdo of the asses, the ost accurate picture of a price would co e- people #oting with their dollars and #oting with their 2itcoins ) if +ou get a hundred thousand data points #ersus four data points- 3 thin1 it4s uch ore holistic #iew of what 2itcoins are actuall+ worth right now- and what the actual senti ent is a ong the people using 2itcoins! That4s one of the things that 34 tr+ing to address) tr+ing to get ore of a senti ent indeA of what do people thin1- right5 3t4s al ost li1e a real)ti e sur#e+ that4s 2ac1ed 2+ people4s actual choices that the+4#e ade! That4s one of the things that want to do: 2ringing +ou more infor ation- not to sa+ that the infor ation that we ha#e is not good- we /ust need to add ore to it- we need as

uch inspiration as possi2le! The ar1et!

ore infor ation- the

ore efficient the

The second thing we want to do we had so e people a1e so e rather large purchases- and the+ were a2le to draw on the networ1 of *atoshi *.uarespecificall+ in Few ?or1- 2ut the+ were a2le to show up and sa+ Ghe+ 3 ha#e this 1ind of reall+ no#el idea that 34 tr+ing to do right now- 2ut 3 need a 2unch of 2itcoins to a1e it happen- so 3 need to 2u+ a 2unch of 2itcoins- can +ou gu+s help e5H Fo one 1new that this gu+ was co ing, no one 1new that he was gonna 2u+ the a ount that he did- 2ut he did- and ost people ne#er i agined that it would e#er 2e possi2le to handle that 1ind of trade- in person- in a par1! A!"!: (an +ou gi#e us an idea of what t+pe of nu 2ers +ou4re tal1ing a2out5 J!R!: Ten grand for one gu+! That was the da+ when we pro2a2l+ did fifteen grand! 3n an+ ar1et- +ou ha#e li.uidit+ pools- so that gu+ pro2a2l+ inflated the price 2+ 2u+ing a lot of 2itcoins- alright- 2ecause he has a #er+ narrow scope of people that he4s dealing with! The larger the scale of people +ou4re dealing with- the less +ou4re gonna o#e the price! That4s what the second thing that Pro/ect Buttonwood is tr+ing to do- is sa+ Gloo1- the easiest wa+ for +ou to 2u+ 2itcoins as an indi#idual- pro#iding accessH ) 34#e alwa+s en#isioned that there would 2e two different t+pes of people here! ?ou ha#e +our core 2elie#ers- people who are in 2itcoins- lo#e 2itcoins- ha#e access to 2itcoins! The+ ha#e their eAchange accounts- the+4#e alread+ gone through all the hassles for +ou! The+4re willing to gi#e +ou access- now- through their wor1- and the+4re the ones who show up e#er+ single wee1- and then +ou ha#e other peoples ) A!"!: *o these are +our ar1et a1ers- +ou4re tal1ing a2out5

J!R!: ?eah- eAactl+- these are the ar1et a1ers- these are the core of the group! Then +ou also ha#e the other people- who are people who /ust showed up 2ecause the+4re curious- the+ show up 2ecause the+ /ust need to 2u+ one coin the+4#e ne#er 2ought a coin 2efore! 6e had people- /ust to segue for a o ent we had a couple show up with their infants and sa+ Gwe /ust wanted to 2u+ two 2itcoins- we /ust heard a2out 4e and we figured Gwh+ not go to the par15 6e were alread+ gonna go to the par1 an+wa+- with our 1ids- and figured we4d stop 2+H! That4s the second 1ind of person who would show up at *atoshi *.uare! 6hat 34 thin1ing is that the ar1et a1ers we ha#e relationships with peoplewith eAchanges- we ha#e relationships with people in other cities- we ha#e relationships with 3R( channels! 6e can for a networ1 of trust a ongst oursel#es- that 2asicall+ ) and 3 do this alread+ right now- to 2e honest with +ouit4s not as efficient as it could 2e- and that4s what the software ai s to do- 2ut for eAa ple if there4s a ton of 2u+ interest- and 3 don4t ha#e that an+ coins to sell now- or not that an+ coins that 34 willing to sell right now 3 tr+ to a1e a phone call to people 3 1now- who are li1e- Ghe+- +ou ha#e access a ton of coins+ou can easil+ 2u+ the 2ac1 to orrow if +ou want can +ou help us out with so e li.uidit+ here5H- and then 34 li1e- Gsure- here- 34ll send +ou a hundred coins if people need 4e - +ou 1now- it4s fine! This is what 34 sa+ing: through trust relationships- +ou can 2asicall+ tap into a super wide pool that4s super resilent-

that will ne#er ha#e accounts froJen- that will ne#er shut down trading- that will 2e a#aila2le 2asicall+ all the ti e! Re e 2er that this was 2efore *atoshi *.uare- 2ut Iwen has alwa+s 2een a reall+ core 2elie#er and 2een a huge help in the *atoshi *.uare pro/ect- and 3 1now that in ti es of great #olatilit+- he4s still a#aila2le +ou wanna get out- he4ll 2e there for +ou, +ou wanna get in- he4ll 2e there for +ou! &e4s alwa+s willing to help out the co unit+ 2+ pro#iding that ser#ice! A!"!: *o he helps out 2+ fidding with the price and still J!R!: ?eah- he4ll still 2e a1ing it ) a1ing it a#aila2le!

A!"!: That4s not so ething that e#er+2od+ does- necessaril+ ) J!R!: Fo- no- a lot of people are /ust there 2ecause the+ want to 2u+- and so e people said G34 gonna show up e#er+ wee1 and /ust 2u+ a couple coins- 2ecause 3 want to 2u+ a couple coins e#er+ wee1- and 34d rather 2u+ the hereH! A lot of people at the conference 8were sa+ing9 G3 2ought this shirt with coins- 3 2ought it at *atoshi *.uareH! That4s a cool thing to see ) Gdid +ou 2u+ +our coins at so e eAchange- or did +ou 2u+ the in person at *atoshi *.uare5H 3t4s al ost li1e street cred- 3 guess- 2ecause we are on the street! 3 /ust thin1 it4s interesting! *o that4s the second function of *atoshi *.uare! A!"!: *o what4s the third5 J!R!: The third function is related to the second one- in that in order to ha#e these networ1s- it co es down to identit+! 6e need to in the sa e wa+ that Bitcoin has forced us to sa+ Gwhat is one+5 6hat does one+ ean- what is sound one+5 (an this 2e one+5 3s this a #alid concept that we can appl+ to one+5 "et4s eAperi ent with what4s possi2le- let4s see what happens! 'ost people on the higher le#el of the de#elop ent will alwa+s sa+ Gthis is 2eta- it4s still eAperi entalH- and it is- and that4s the 2eaut+ of it that it4s eAperi ental! 6e can tr+- we can fail Bitcoin has failed in a illion different wa+s 2ut it4s still ore popular than e#er- still successful! *o the point is- eAperi entation and the a2ilit+ of ha#ing a place to do trial)and)error t+pe stuff is i portant! *o in the sa e wa+ that 2itcoins forced us to re)e#aluate Gwhat is one+5H- 3 thin1 that it4s also a1ing us thin1 of Gwhat is identit+5H! 3n a glo2al econo +wh+ does + social securit+ card atter to so eone in @er an+5 3t reall+ doesn4t- to the ! 6hat ight atter ore to the is + Face2oo1 account! 6hat ight atter ore to the is + 3R( handle! Thin1 a2out it this wa+: 3 was a huge fan of the /ail2rea1 scene for iPhones! The iPhone de# tea all ha#e Twitter handles- li1e co eA- sauri1- pod;g now- if geohot his real na e is @eorge &otJ said so ething and signed it G@eorge &otJH- this is 2efore he got ore fa ous- 2ut would an+one care5 6ould an+one 2e li1e Goh + gosh- did +ou hear what this gu+ said5H ) no! &is identit+- in a ore eaningful wa+- was geohotand it was co eA- and it was sauri1! That was their identit+ to the world- so when people wanted to inter#iew the - the+ would refer to the that wa+- and the+ would 1now the 2+ this online handle- and 3 thin1 the sa e thing is happening in Bitcoin right now- which is that 3 don4t reall+ care a2out what Trans Nnion-

E.uifaA or EAperion ha#e to sa+ a2out +ou- so uch it reall+ ight- in so e wa+- correlated to 2itcoin- 2ut for the ost part it4s a 1ind of anti.uated s+ste that doesn4t a1e a lot of sense to people and Bitcoin also has the chance to 2asicall+ sa+ Gwe4re redesigning a financial s+ste - let4s redesign how we loo1 at credit- let4s redesign how we loo1 at trustH ) 2ecause the 2itcoin4s supposed to 2e trust is not re.uired to use Bitcoin- 2ut at the sa e ti e- no one was e#er gonna sa+ that the+4#e ne#er ta1en a loan- or that the+4#e ne#er wanted a loan how do +ou deal with that in deflationar+ currenc+- etc! *o 3 thin1 that trust is #er+ i portant- and identit+ is #er+ i portant- and 3 thin1 'ircea Popescu- who runs 'PER- su ed it up ideall+, he said Gidentit+ is a2out consistenc+! 3f 3 a the gu+ who started 'PER- and 3 sign a contract using a @P@)1e+- then 3 also so e lad+ co es up and sa+s Ghe+- 34 authorised to spea1 on 2ehalf of 'PERand +ou4#e signed a state ent to that effectH ) and it4s the sa e 1e+ that signed 2oth state ents does it atter that his na e is 'ircea Popescu5 Fo- it atters that he started this eAchange- and he said that this lad+ can spea1 for this eAchange! *o it4s a2out consistenc+ oreso than a go#ern ent na e that was gi#en to it at 2irth that +ou can change! A lot of those things are #er+ easil+ ga e! There4s identit+ theft running ra pantright- and 3 thin1 that what 3 thin1 that this is tr+ing to sol#e- it4s sa+ing Gwhat if 3 could ha#e a eta)identit+ in the 2itcoin space- that 3 would 2e 1nown to 2e a #alua2le e 2er- so eone who people can trustH! 3 ean- 34#e had people at *atoshi *.uare- + phone was dead- and 3 was li1e G34d sell +ou two coins- 2ut + phone4s dead- 3 can4t- sorr+H- ) 3 tried to find so eone else- 3 guess- and the+ were li1e Gno- there4s no one else selling right nowH! 34 li1e G3 wish 3 could help +ou! 'a+2e +ou can co e with e to + office and we4ll tr+ to charge + phoneHand he4s li1e- G34ll /ust gi#e +ou the cash- here! Just send it to e to orrow- or whate#er- when +ou get ho e! (harge +our phone!H And 34 li1e- G+ou /ust et e toda+H- and he4s li1e G3 1now- 2ut 3 thin1 that +ou4re trustworth+H! And 3 was li1e- GIL- well- 3 a trustworth+- 2ut 3 do .uestion +our /udge ent a little 2itH ) 2ut at the sa e ti e- 3 sent hi the two coins- he was happ+- 3 was happ+- and 3 thin1 thatwhen +ou see people actuall+ trust each other- and 2e rewarded for ha#ing trusted so eone- it4s actuall+ a little 2it it war s +our heart! A!"!: 3t4s a good thing! J!R!: 3 want to 2asicall+ gi#e people credit where credit is due- and sa+ G+ou4#e 2asicall+ 2een there for e#er+one- to e- +our word is as good as goldH- and 34#e had a lot of people sa+ G34d pro2a2l+ trust +ou a lot ore than 3 trust that we2siteH! 3 thin1 that in so e wa+s- identit+ is o#ing fro a corporate odel to an indi#idual odel- and 3 thin1 that that4s what *atoshi *.uare can do- is sa+ Gfro what we4#e seen- according to how +ou acted at these eAchanges- is +ou4#e 2asicall+ done what +ou said +ou were gonna doH! A!"!: 3 definitel+ see what +ou4re sa+ing with that! 3 thin1 it4s ore #alua2lethough- as al ost a 2ootstrapping echanis - /ust 2ecause it doesn4t scalethough! 6hat do +ou thin1 8is9 largest plausi2le siJe a *atoshi *.uare could get while still functioning at a high le#el5 Are we tal1ing +ou e#ents are up to =C- >C people )

J!R!: ?eah- we4#e got

ore than that so eti es!

A!"!: 6hat happens when +ou get >CC5 :oes it still wor15 J!R!: This is the thing too 3 thin1 it4s al ost natural! 34#e seen the 2itcoin eetup group scene in Few ?or1! The+ would start with one eetup group- that started getting a hundred people- and a hundred and fift+ people- and e#er+one4s crowded and e#er+one4s 2asicall+ sitting around while e#er+one is introducing the sel#es ) A!"!: 3 see- so the+ splinter5 J!R!: The+ start splintering off- and then all of a sudden we ha#e a Tuesda+ eetup group for entrepeneurs- we ha#e a 6ednesda+ eetup for tech gu+s- we ha#e a Thursda+ eetup for Bitcoin BCB- we ha#e a Frida+ drin1up for people who wanna relaA- we ha#e a 'onda+ *atoshi *.uare eetup for people who want to trade- and all of a sudden- +ou start getting finer and finer grained niches- where people can fit into the niche that the+4re interested in- and in the sa e wa+ Few ?or1 is a 2ig cit+- there could 2e how an+ par1s are there in Few ?or15 ) that an+ *atoshi *.uares- 3 guess- and that4s not to sa+ that *atoshi *.uare is li ited to par1s in Berlin- the+ do it in a 2ar- and we /ust go to E7R if e#er the weather4s loo1ing a little incle ent! '+ point is that there4s no need to sa+ Glet4s get BC-CCC people together- 34ll tradeH ) 2ut- at the sa e ti e- 3 would sa+ the software- which is 2asicall+- if +ou wanna tal1 a little ore a2out the specifics of the software ) A!"!: ?eah- well 3 was gonna as1- so those are pro2le s 3 definitel+ agree that are faced 2+ #arious parts of the Bitcoin co unit+- specificall+ the ones that +ou4re engaging with! *o how far along are +ou in de#elop ent of the solution5 &ow does it wor15 3t it so ething that is accessi2le to the a#erage user5 J!R!: 3t is- right now! 3t4s reall+ 2eta! 3 2asicall+ coded it up +self and 34 not the 2est coder in the world! 3 do what 3 can 3 lo#e coding- 2ut that doesn4t a1e e a great coder! A!"!: Right! ?ou4re doing it 2ecause it has to 2e done! J!R!: That4s the thing too- there4s a lot of other things that need to 2e done- so 3 ha#e to do those too- so + ti e is constantl+ di#ided a ong fi#e or siA different things! The coding part is usuall+ the part that suffers- 2ecause 34 t+picall+ li1e GIL- there4s a co puter screen here- it4s gonna 2e here when 3 get 2ac1! There4s a person who needs e to write the 2ac1 an e ailH ) li1e- that4s a person- so the+ should 2e prioritiJed! A!"!: 3 can relate to this! J!R!: An+2od+ who e ails e- 34 li1e Gwell- the+4re waiting on a response- the co puter doesn4t ind waiting- so 3 thin1 it4s ore polite to respond to the e ail than to ignore the H ) e#en though toda+ 3 did that for a little while- and it felt so good- /ust to sit at the co puter and ignore the world it4s #er+ rough right now-

and 34 tr+ing to fiA that! 3t4s an open source pro/ect on @it&u2 right now! 3 eanliterall+- 3 was showing people at the conference- who are designing 6all *treet le#el trading s+ste s +41now- Gwe use this craJ+ technolog+- and that craJ+ technolog+H ) and 3 showed the + little hu 2le we2 app 3 can ha#e + cellphone out and 2asicall+ place an order- and then it pops up on another co puter within less than a tenth of a second- 3 would sa+ and then 3 can update that order in real ti e- and it4s 2asicall+ a reall+ good wa+ to disse inate infor ation- to 2roadcast it to a group- to ha#e an+ one person 2e a2le to 2roadcast to an+ other person- which is eAactl+ what 34 loo1ing for for distri2uted eAchange! *o 'eteor is an a aJing idea! 3 thin1 it4s a new paradig for the we2- to 2e honest! That4s wh+ 3 chose it 2ecause it also opens up the doors and pro#ides access to wor1 on this pro/ect to 2asicall+ an+one who4s e#er done an+thing online! 3f +ou4#e done an+ we2 progra ing- +ou 1now Ja#ascript! ?ou can wor1 on this pro/ect in whate#er sense +ou want to! ?ou can 2e part of the design- +ou can 2e part of the 2ac1end s+ste s- +ou can 2e part of the data2ase tea 3 ean- when 3 sa+ that- there4s not a data2ase tea yet- 2ut 3 would li1e there to 2e a data2ase tea - and 3 would li1e there to 2e a design tea ! A!"!: *o- let4s tal1 a2out this for a second! &ow 2ig is the tea a tea 5 3s this /ust +ou- Josh5 right now5 3s there

J!R!: 3t4s li1e one! 3t4s a wolf)pac1 of one right now! Actuall+- Iwen @unden has helped e a ton! 6e actuall+ were coding it up at the *an Jose conference2ecause 3 actuall+ spo1e a little 2it at that in#estors4 panel- and 3 /ust wanted to use it as a platfor to show off the idea of decrentraliJed- in)person eAchangesand also to show off the software! 3 thin1 it got a lot of people #er+ interested in 'eteor- as well as the specific pro/ect of 'eteor! *ince then we ha#e 2een 2us+ with a lot of other things- and it4s 2asicall+ 2asicall+- it has not progressed as uch as 3 wouldn4t ha#e li1ed it to in this ti e! 3 ha#e that core functionalit+ that wor1s right now- and people use it we can still 1ind of 2ug +ou- we ha#e a geolocation that4s 2uilt in- so 3 can loo1 at a ap and see all the different orders that people are placing! 34 tr+ing to filter it ore 2+ logical groups- li1e Few ?or1- 'ia i- 7ancou#er- *an Francisco! A!"!: *o this is not a *an Francisco has its own instance- Few ?or1 has its own instance this is a collecti#e s+ste ! J!R!: 3 want it to 2e a collecti#e s+ste - 2ecause 3 thin1 that4s where the #alue co es in! 6e eet up in person- and we4#e actuall+ alread+ done cross) continental trades- 3 guess, we4re had people in Few ?or1 trading with people in "A using- 3 thin1- (hase Suic1Pa+- or so ething li1e that, which- again- if 34 using (hase Suic1Pa+- it ta1es a lot ore trust than if 3 was gonna /ust accept cash fro +ou- which is wh+ it4s i portant) A!"!: 3s that 2ecause it4s re#ersi2le5 J!R!: ?eah! Just li1e if 3 was gonna use Pa+pal- or 7en o 3 thin1 7en o4s re#ersi2le- 3 reall+ don4t 1now )

A!"!: &a#e +ou had J!R!: Tero so far! A!"!: Zero fraud5

uch pro2le

with fraud5

J!R!: Reall+- there4s 2een Jero fraudto this point right now! The ost negati#e eAperience that an+one4s had at a *atoshi *.uare e#ent was so eone didn4t include a transaction fee- which eant that it too1 a little while for that transaction to clear! A!"!: *o /ust anno+ing! J!R!: ?eah- it was anno+ing! 3t4s an honest ista1e- and what can +ou do a2out itright5 3 actuall+ ha#e 2een telling people that another thing 3 thin1 is the future is off)2loc1chain transactions- 2ecause not every single transaction has to go through the 2loc1chain! A gu+ na ed TradeFortress ) and the fact that 3 /ust called hi TradeFortress is 2ecause 3 don4t 1now his real na e 2ut 3 1now what he4s done- and he4s 2uilt so ething called inputs!io it4s an off)2loc1chain 2itcoin wallet! ?ou can- o2#iousl+- transfer 2itcoins through the 2loc1chain- into the wallet- and out again- 2ut when +ou ha#e the sa e wallet so eone at (oin2ase- 3 thin1- has a si ilar s+ste which eans that if 34 sending fro a (oin2ase wallet to another (oin2ase wallet- we don4t 2other going through the 2loc1chain and pa+ing fees! 3t4s instant- and it4s i ediate- and it4s done irre#ersi2l+ 2ecause +ou trust co pan+ not to re#erse it- 2asicall+! A!"!: *o that4s 2asicall+ what 3 sa+ is the 2est wa+ for people at *atoshi *.uare to trade there- if +ou4re gonna do a decent a ount of trading- then +ou should pro2a2l+ use inputs!io 2ecause +our trades are instant and +ou don4t ha#e to pa+ an+ fees or worr+ a2out calculating fees! That4s another thing that an app will e#entuall+ hopefull+ do: lin1 into all these AP3s- li1e- we can hopefull+ lin1 into +our inputs!io wallet or +our 2loc1chain wallet, G'+ 6alletH is what it4s calledright5 &opefull+- we can e#en lin1 in with 7en o or Pa+pal 3 ean- that4s al ost li1e a dirt+ word in the Bitcoin space- 2ut 3 /ust want to pro#ide access for as an+ people to ha#e as an+ options as possi2le to trade with other people! *o as that technolog+ grows- and as it 2eco es ore popular what 3 2asicall+ tried to do was tell people what the+ needed- and then 2uild a product well- this is 2asicall+ a GfreeH product- 2ut e#entuall+ 3 also see people pro#iding ser#ices li1e escrow- li1e insurance- li1e FR hedging- right5 G3 need to 2u+ a 2unch of 2itcoins2ut 34 not gonna spending the right awa+- and until 3 spend the - 3 don4t want the #alue to go down! 3 need to 2u+ siA thousand dollars4 worth of so ething in 2itcoin! 3 don4t want the price to go down on e- 2ecause 3 need to 2u+ siA thousand dollars4 worth! There are ore co pleA financial tools to do this- 2ut the+ can 2e ade to appear sea less and s ooth to the end)user- and 3 thin1 that it4s /ust a atter of Gwho wants to get creati#e- who wants to do so ething interestingH ) and 3 thin1 that the #ision has 2een pro#en out as people li1e doing things this wa+- the+ see the #alue- so now it4s a atter of a1ing it easier for the and tr+ing to offer the ore #alue- tell the Gwhat do +ou find #alua2le5 6hat would +ou li1e to see5 6e can 2uild thatH- and that4s what 3 want to see

happen ore! That4s wh+ 34 ore focused on the software side of things- now2ecause 3 thin1 that not that + /o24s done- in an+ sense- 2ut 3 thin1 that it4s spreading without e now- and 3 don4t need to the idea is catching on! 3t4s catching on- 3 thin1- 3 don4t thin1 3 need to handhold so uch an+ ore- and 3 ean- > il fro Few ?or1 34 BCCM sure that *atoshi *.uare will continue on! A!"!: That4s aweso e- Josh! ?ou said that the pro/ect4s up on @it&u2 ) J!R!: 3t is it4s githu2!co //oshuarossi/ButtonwoodU eteor A!"!: "et4stal12itcoin!co /2uttonwood! J!R!: ?eah- eAactl+- easier) uch easier to re e 2er! But there4s actuall+ two pro/ects, 34 2asicall+ ta1ing the original code- which is the heard and soul of the whole Pro/ect Buttonwood thing- which is 2asicall+ /ust an order2oo1 a distri2uted order2oo1 that an+one can put orders into- that 1eeps trac1 of what the 2est price is! 34 tr+ing to 2asicall+ refactor that code- a1e it roc1 solid2ulletproof- and then o#e it into a uch prettier we2site that 3 designed- with uch ore features! That4s what the other one- which is called Buttonwood Ad#anced- that4s another pro/ect on + sa e githu2 e#entuall+ we4e gonna start plugging in those features into that fra ewor1 that 34#e set up! As each piece 2eco es BCCM relia2le- it4ll a1e it into the neAt)gen platfor for Pro/ect Buttonwood! A!"!: Are there an+ upco ing *atoshi *.uares in places that we ha#en4t heard a2out doing the +et- that +ou 1now are pro2a2l+ gonna 2e ha#ing a thing in the neAt couple of wee1s5 J!R!: 3 heard a lot of ru ours a2out Austin doing one ) 3 thin1 that a+ ha#e 2een underwa+- 3 thin1 the plans ha#e 2een set- 3 thin1 it4s an+da+ now a+2e neAt wee1- 3 don4t 1now 2ut there4s a huge presence of 2itcoin stuff in Austin- and 3 thin1 it /ust a1es sense that the+4re gonna do one there! 7ancou#er did it +esterda+- so 3 thin1 34 not sure if e#er+one heard a2out that- 2ut 7ancou#er /ust started 'ia i did it a little 2it ago! A!"!: *o ore e#er+ wee15

J!R!: 'ore and ore e#er+ wee1- 34#e /ust 2een sa+ing! 3 go on reddit once a wee1t+picall+- to write and sa+ Ghe+- it4s *atoshi *.uare is in Nnion *.uare >)E- +ou wanna 2u+ or sell 2itcoins or /ust co e 2+ and chat- please stop 2+H! And then 3 /ust put the word out there- e#er+ single 'onda+- and people still told e G3 don4t 1now where +ou were this wee1H and 34 li1e- G3 put this infor ation in the sa e eAact places there4s three Twitter feeds, there4s the Face2oo1 group- *atoshi *.uare Face2oo1 group- and there is the reddit! And the BitcoinTal1 foru s so eti es! *o 34 sa+ing those are the ediu s through which we disse inate the infor ation of Goh- it loo1s li1e it4s a =CM chance of rainH- and we4#e 2een caught in the rain- so we are not eager to replicate that- so we usuall+ go to E7R on da+s when it loo1s li1e it ight rain!

A!"!: And E7R is- of course- the 2ar that accepts 2itcoins in Few ?or1 (it+D (harlie *hre 4s 2ar- it4s great! J!R!: 6e were /ust there last night for the afterpart+ at the conference! A!"!: ?eah- it was fun! J!R!: 6e had a great ti e- although + head was not so happ+ with e toda+ when 3 wo1e up! 3 had to ta1e a couple t+lenols a little while ago for that eAact reason! A!"!: EAactl+- 2ut it4s all for the cause- right5 *o- +ou4re loo1ing for what5 J!R!: N3 ) A!"!: ) and +ou want everybody ) J!R!: ?eah- e#er+2od+- as an+ people as possi2le who want to get in on this! The other thing that we4re gonna start wor1ing on soon- 3 hope so eone approached e and said the+ want to wor1 on a Fash#ille nati#e app for Androidwhich 3 thin1 is a crucial thing that we need to get going- and 34 not entirel+ sure of the integration path of the we2 app- 2ut 34 sure it4s possi2le and 34 sure it4s gonna get done and we4re gonna do it 2ut that4s another thing- 3 wanted to /ust wor1 on +our phone- 2ecause ost people are using their phones an+wa+ and the easier +ou can a1e it- where 3 can /ust clic1 an order and 3 can 2asicall+ send hi coins prett+ uch sea lessl+- and he4ll /ust 2e li1e Ghe+ ho- +ou4re the gu+ right here- +ou 1nowH ) and 2+ the fact that 3 was in a trade- 2oth of our user ratings get a 2u p up! That4s what 3 was going to sa+ earlier, specificall+- 3 would sa+ ost people can put a #er+ high- defina2le onetar+ dollar #alue on their seller ratings on eBa+! 3 can literall+ charge >M ore than so eone without + rating- 2ecause of + user rating ) A!"!: And so +ou thin1 that that4ll ) J!R!: *a e thing- 3 thin1- where +our na e has to 2e in good standing in order to ha#e people trust +ou- to send +ou digital gold across the countr+ without 1nowing +our real na e +ou4#e gotta ha#e so ething! 6e4re definitel+ loo1ing for an+ de#elopers- an+2od+ who4s eAperienced in Ja#ascript 'ongo:B- FoJ*specificall+ if +ou 1now 'eteor- +ou are eAactl+ who we4re loo1ing for! 3 reall+ lo#e the 'eteor group that people in Few ?or1 are great- Alissa *cha#ins1+- a couple other people as well) the+ ha#e a great 3R( channel! 3f +ou 1now 'eteor- then +ou are the eAact person 34 loo1ing for- 2ut if +ou 1now 'ongo:B or if +ou /ust 1now Ja#ascript then +ou4re still #er+ welco e and #er+ uch needed! 3f +ou 2elie#e in this idea- if +ou thin1 it4s useful- we would lo#e to ha#e +ou co e help us! A!"!: Are +ou loo1ing for an+ t+pe of colla2orators who are outside of the coding spectru 5 J!R!: :efinitel+- ostl+ people who want to organise- and are who was it in 'alcol @ladwell4s 2oo1- those connector people Aaron- Lonig and Berlin and

it4s /ust li1e- GJosh- 3 wanna do one in BerlinH- and 34 li1e- Glet4s do itH! And so e people are li1e Ghow do we go a2out doing this5H and 34 li1e G+ou gu+s are a1ing this wa+ too difficult!H A!"!: ?eah right +ou /ust show upD J!R!: ?ou /ust tell people Ghe+- we4re gonna do one of these hereH- and get a 2unch of +our friends to hang out with +ou! The 1e+ is consistenc+ in those 1ind of scenarios! 3 used to wor1 in a 2ar- and our owners would ne#er let us close 2efore four- 2ecause it could 2e #er+ slow that *unda+- 2ut neAt *unda+- if so eone4s sitting at ho e and sa+ing G3 was thin1ing of stopping 2+ the 2ar are the+ gonna 2e open or not5 3 don4t 1now- 34 not gonna 2other ris1ing it! 34 /ust gonna sta+ ho e! 6h+ 2other showing up /ust to find that it4s closed5H! And that4s the 1e+- +ou4#e gotta 2e consistent- +ou gotta show up and +ou gotta 2e there- and if +ou 2elie#e in the concept of in)person eAchanges- or if +ou and 3 personall+ 2elie#e that if +ou 2elie#e in 2itcoin and want it to succeed- then +ou should 2e tr+ing to pro#ide access to people who don4t ha#e access right now- or who are interested 2ut don4t 1now how to get into the space and 3 don4t 1now of an easier wa+! Prett+ uch e#er+one that 34#e tal1ed to has agreed with e- that the+ don4t 1now of an easier wa+- for people to get their first 2itcoin or to learn ore a2out Bitcoin! *o if +ou 2elie#e in Bitcoin- 3 thin1 it4s i portant to tr+ to pro#ide access for people! A!"!: Joshua- o2#iousl+ +ou ha#e a great #ision- and o2#iousl+ a lot of passion for this topic- and +ou4re a1ing it happen- and 3 reall+ thin1 +ou4re doing great wor1- so 1eep up the good wor1- and if +ou ha#e the a2ilit+ to help this gu+ outdo e a fa#our- personall+- and a1e it happen! J!R!: Than1 +ou so uch- 3 reall+ appreciate the #ote of confidence!

A!"!: "i1e 3 sa+- 1eep up the good wor1! This is fantastic! J!R!: This has 2een a whirlwind for e- and 3 1inda lo#e the fact that 3 feel li1e 34 doing so ething- hopefull+- that is a1ing so e people happ+- or people are getting so e sort of #alue out of it! To whate#er eAtent 3 can- 3 hope that 3 further these goals and don4t hinder the ! A!"!: 6ell- we loo1 forward to chec1ing in with +ou again- as the software progresses and as we see ore *atoshi *.uares roll out around the world! J!R!: EAactl+- 3 thin1 *+dne+- Australia4s gonna 2e co ing soon the 1e+ is- the one thing- is that if +ou want to start a *atoshi *.uare in an+ eAotic location- and +ou want e to co e there +ou feel li1e fl+ing e out 3 a totall+ a#aila2le! Just tell e when and where- and 3 will co e out to an+ eAotic- interesting location! *o! An+one who wants to do a *atoshi *.uare in &onolulu- please get in touch with e! A!"!: Than1s for listening to episode 3E of "et4s Tal1 Bitcoin! (ontent for toda+4s show was pro#ided 2+ *tephanie 'urph+- Andreas '! Antonopolous- 'oe "e#in and Josh Rossi! 'usic was pro#ided 2+ Jared Ru2ens! 3f +ou can4t get enough

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