Lets Talk Bitcoin- Episode49 DisruptivePeople

Participants: Adam B. Levine - Host (AD) Amir Taaki - guest (AT) Elizabeth Ploshay - Guest Bitcoin Foundation Board Member (EP) Nathanial Castro - Guest (NC)

AD: Hi, and welcome to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin for October 11 2013, visit us at letstalkbitcoin.com for our daily guest blog, all our past episodes and of course, tipping address. My name is Adam B. Levine and today, its all about people. Amir Taaki is a name that you should already know, but chances are good many of you dont. Bitcoin is different things to different people but to Amir its an actionable chance to change the world for betterment of mankind. Amir is a full time developer on Bitcoin projects, and recently completed an ambitious reimplementation of the Bitcoin protocol called libbitcoin, to be more lightweight, clean and modular. We end todays show with what he calls the libbitcoin manifesto, and if youre interested in powerful perspectives its not to be missed. The day before the crypto-currency conference I caught up with Elizabeth Ploshay, the recently elected member of the Bitcoin Foundation Board, We talked about the journey and her priorities, we talk about Bitcoin in the Middle East, and where the next generation of adopters will come from. But First Nathanial Castro has a dream, and hes not the only one. He dreams of a future where we farm our fuel, and have money backed and redeemable in it. Nathanial paints the vision and its an appealing one, if we can only get from here to there. Any body

wanna [want to] come along. Enjoy the show. AD: [0.1.35] So, were joined this morning by Nathanial Castro. Nathanial, you and I have been talking about Bitcoin for the last couple of months, but you actually have an interesting project that goes beyond Bitcoin. NC: [0.1.45] Yeah, so, I guess how I wound up finding Bitcoin initially is sort of a long story, it involves something thats not exactly Bitcoin related but actually has some parallels. Several years back I sort of went down the rabbit hole of, you know, how the world works, how things work, how money works, how economy works and came to some conclusions regarding fiat currencys and peak oil issues, and these kind of things, and that was that we were totally screwed. Going down the fuel avenue of oil and oil economy and these things, I realized that energy is wealth, and the ability to control energy is wealth, and in third world countries where they cant have lights, you know thats poverty. I got really depressed coming against the oil shortages, commodity shortages and a currency that literally cant hold water, so you know I just stared poking around and trying to figure things out, trying to decide what to do, I started researching local currencies a lot and local currency schemes for hours and this kind of stuff. I came across a guy, who wrote a book, called Alcohol Can Be A Gas his names David Blume and Id heard some interviews with him, basically when I had come across the biofuels avenue of you know, and when I talk about it IAD: [0.3.19] Lets back up a second here, Im not sure that everybody really appreciates, because you know peak oil is a term that gets thrown around but I think there are a few different definitions of it. Peak oil is not to say that no, correct me if Im wrong here; Peak oil is not to say that were out. NC: [0.3.34] Absolutely not. AD: [0.3.35] Its just that weve hit the peak of production and yet

based on global growth that doesnt work, the math doesnt work anymore in the same way that it used to. NC: [0.3.45] Right, it becomes harder to get and more expensive and more scarce. AD: [0.3.47] So you think, do you think were at that point or approaching that point or were past that point? NC: [0.3.52] I dont know. You know there are arguments both ways; to be honest I dont really care. And quite frankly I dont even care so much about the peak oil issue; I just dont like putting gas in my car. I dont like extracting something from the ground that spits carbon monoxide into the air. I would rather put something thats carbon neutral and semi-locally produced, you know at least domestically in my car. I dont like being forced to do anything, so you know I wanna [want to] use ethanol and I wanna [want to] use Bitcoin. AD: [0.4.21] So to a certain extent it sounds like you agree with the government who also likes ethanol and likes to incentivize ethanol. NC: [0.4.35] Yes and no. Our current ethanol infrastructure is larger scale industrial, its not necessarily what David Blume or this book or I would necessarily advocate which is more appropriate scale, more small farm. AD: [0.4.53] Can you tell me about what hes advocating? NC: [0.4.55] Hes advocating an appropriate scale, you know the history of ethanol and alcohol in this country is fascinating, and to anyone I would encourage them to get the book or at least dig up some David Blume lectures and understand a little bit about the history of alcohol in this country, you know the first car the model T was both ran on ethanol as well as gasoline, and you could fill it up with gas in the city and then go out to country and fill it up with ethanol which is alcohol which is basically moonshine and each farm in the country had a still. It wasnt until prohibition that that changed and it became illegal, but in my opinion it should be something that everyone understands; that you can produce fuel,

that you can run moonshine in your car right now. And that was something I didnt understand, and when I went down this road and I sort of came across ethanol I saw headlines that everyone sees, that its energy negative, that it takes more petrol to make ethanol than you get energy out of it. AD: [0.5.55] So was that not true broadly speaking? NC: [0.5.57] Thats not true, Its largely based off of one guys study. This guy David Pimentel, who was actually funded by I think Exxon. AD: [0.6.07] So a little bit of a conflict? NC: [0.6.09] Yeah, its a little bit of a conflict, and its also you know his numbers are based off of things like 1940s whisky distilleries, when it comes to the ethanol production efficiency is extremely important. So, when you take like Brazil who largely produces most of their fuel from sugarcane ethanol. So theres that whole side of it is a whole long conversation to me and I would really defer most of that to David Blume and his book because hes the professional and Im just the student, but its fascinating. Absolutely fascinating, and it falls in line I think with some of the ideologies of crypto-currencies and Bitcoin that is you guys had your chance, were gonna [going to] do it our way now, and were gonna [going to] do it a different way and we can do it ourselves. AD: [0.6.52] So one of the other differences and also similarities it seems like is that if you have unlimited resource that is only geographically in some parts of the world and is certainly more accessible in some parts of the world where it is there than others, thats contrary to say something that is produced from a crop; from a grown thing and moonshine is not even really fuel specific, you can make it out of sugarcane, you can also make it out of potatoes NC: [0.7.20] You can make it out of a ton of different food sources. AD: [0.7.23] OK, so to a certain extent an alcohol based fuel system is a more decentralized system.

NC: [0.7.29] Absolutely. One aspect of it that I think is interesting; from a theoretical perspective Im sure there are plenty of arguments that can be made for this and that and what not, but from theoretical perspective like I said energy is wealth. And what alcohol is; is liquid solar energy. It is basically that sunshine comes down combined with carbon dioxide in the photosynthesis process and creates carbohydrates, the yeast eat the carbohydrates, convert it to alcohol with the carbon dioxide, and what you have left is alcohol. So when you distil out the alcohol, what you have left in your mash is everything that was already there; the proteins, the fats, the nutrients, the minerals, the only thing youre extracting is the alcohol, which is liquid sunshine. So now if energy is wealth and alcohol is liquid sunshine, were being rained wealth on us every day, and its just a matter of harvesting it, and thats what farmers do and thats what youre doing when youre using the photosynthesis process to collect that energy. AD: [0.8.29] So, now I also heard this argument made about solar, but it seems like this is a little bit different than solar in a couple of ways. NC: [0.8.37] Yeah, youre probably talking about the photovoltaic sort of aspect of solar. AD: [0.8.40] Yeah, I am yes. I mean the electric generation. NC: [0.8.43] Yeah that has all sorts of problems. AD: [0.8.46] One of the main problems it has is that the places that you generate solar energy for photovoltaic, generally isnt where you need to use it and theres a loss over transmission and thats not really the case with the liquid fuel source. Fuel source is very transportable. NC: [0.9.01] Yeah its fungible, they used whiskey as currency back in the day, you know and theres a great book; its fiction its called The Whiskey Rebellion but its based off of historical fiction, and that is a big plot line is them paying their rent in whiskey and that kinda [kind of] stuff. So whiskey as a currency and alcohol as

a currency was kind of a running theme as I was doing all this research. So when I came across this I said I wanna [want to] do that. I dont have a farm, this is generally something that would appeal to someone who maybe has a farm, but I wanted to do it anyway. And I figured out, I dont wanna [want to] work out the bugs, I wanna [want to] work out the kinks and I just dove right in and I ran into two major obstacles. Capital and you know you can get a permit to distil five thousand gallons for fuel purposes for free, so free permits really easy to get and so I figured OK thats a good number, Ill shoot for that Im gonna [going to] try do a five thousand gallon aim, or sort of distillation set up but you know, thinking about it, if I wanted to scale you know theres a distribution issue as well. Basically in what David Blume proposes is community supported energy, like a community supported agriculture, you know you basically pay your subscription at the beginning of the year and youre allowed a certain amount of gallons throughout the year and so it would be done as a collective. But you know, to scale it up it gets bigger and so I started kinda [kind of] thinking about well what about several and how could you connect them and build a network and exchange in between them and you know, I started to think of having a currency that would be backed by this locally produced ethanol, and so in affect what you would do by subscribing to [at the beginning of the year] would be essentially purchasing these credits, that would then be exchanged as a local currency. AD: [0.10.59] OK, so lets say that we have one of these communities supporting fuel, is that what you call it? NC: [0.11.03] Community supported energy. AD: [0.11.06] Energy yes CSE. So you subscribe to that, I dont subscribe to that so youre saying that once you subscribe to that and you have your set amount of credits for the year, you could sell some of those to me, and I could then be able to redeem them or also use it as a currency myself in the same way that you do? NC: [0.11.23] Right, well and the part of it is as well is that as well producing fuel but like I said after you distil the alcohol you have this mash left and that is a huge nutrient source, there are many

things that can be done agriculturally from that you know, grow mushrooms, feed it to fish, grow vegetables and all these other things so it works in conjunction with the local farms; so youre producing fuel and youre producing food and so, say if youre building this distillation facility and you need some welding work done, you know well the welderIm not a welder but I can find someone who can weld and can be paid in these credits which can then in turn be redeemed to purchase fuel or vegetables or mushrooms or you know. Im a big fan of local economies and local currencies you know, and they add farmer value to a local economy then the national currency would. So this was the idea I was coming up with and this also in turn raises the capital to build the facility. AD: [0.12.22] Right, its essentially you know, its like a CSA, Preordering sort of. NC: [0.12.25] Yeah its essentially crowd funding, its a kick-starter on a local level for you know, a very specific reason. So yeah, that was my bright idea and Im like OK I wanna [want to] figure this out, I wanna [want to] design this currency, I wanna [want to] because this was a problem I ran into. I dont have the funds to do this, its kind of an obscure business model I dont know if I can borrow the money for it, but I wanna [want to] see it done and I wanna [want to] see it be done to be replicable and scalable and so I wantedIm big on design, another aspect of this whole ideology is the concept of permaculture. I dont know if youre familiar with permaculture? AD: [0.12.58] I am a small amount but why dont we recap just for the audience? NC: [0.13.01] Well permaculture is a method of designing agricultural landscapes to be permanent, like a forest or something the way nature designs things it doesnt design anything with waste. You know there are no carbon monoxide spitting in the air. AD: [0.13.18] Well I mean lets dig into that a little bit, you know I live in a forest right so there are lots of trees in the forest; the trees have leaves, the leaves fall to the ground. Some people would

characterize the leaves falling to the ground as waste because they are no longer being used by the tree, so how does that tie in with permaculture? NC: [0.13.35] Oh well the leaves break down into soil, which in turn feeds the plants. I mean everything in the amazon forestAD: [0.13.42] So were talking about the cycle of things? NC: [0.13.43] The cycle of things yeah, and the stacking of functions, probably couldnt give the best examples right now but there are the concept of things serving multiple purposes. AD: [0.13.52] So its almost like a systems based approach to the growth cycle, as opposed to the monoculture that a lot of times you see used. NC: [0.14.01] Exactly. AD: [0.14.02] Right, so instead of them being one type of thing like fields of wheat, instead you have various things that are all synergistically interact with each other? NC: [0.14.11] Right, polyculture, annuals per annuals all working together, I mean its an observational design system, yeah I recommend anyone also to look into permaculture as an alternative to our current monoculture nightmare. You know, like I said the fuel food and our currency issues were these glaring problems in society in my opinion, and you know monoculture and peak oil and fiat currency. AD: [0.14.39] So, just again real quick, I dont mean to keep you but were covering a lot of concept here and I wanna [want to] make sure that were keeping people with us. Why is a monoculture bad in agriculture? NC: [0.14.49] Several reasons, one of them as monoculture basically opens up to pest problems. You know if a potato bug sees a field of potatoes, its just open season. Polyculture you have several different types of crops, its not as easy pickings for

one insect to come in. AD: [0.15.13] So one type of insect can come in and infest the entire thing as opposed to only being able to affect a smaller portion of it? NC: [0.15.19] Right. And you see certain aberrations starting to arise with you know, youve got Monsanto and you know, the round up stuff and occasionally you see some I dont know if this entirely true actually, but you see resistances to certain pesticides. AD: [0.15.36] Well you do see evolutionary trades evolve over time. It makes sense you know. NC: [0.15.41] So that, as well as a lot of the ammonia based fertilisers which are petroleum based fertilisers, so if peak oil is an issue, thats an issue. So yeah the monocultural agriculture process versus a permaculture polycultural process are polar opposites.

AD: [0.15.59] Right. OK I got you there, great we can get back to the story. NC: [0.16.04] OK, so permaculture also incorporates theres a permaculture economic model which is looking at economics from a local scale, you know and I like to say stacking functions from a currency perspective so designing this local currency that would fund the building of the facility as well as add value to the community, you know serves multiple purposes in my opinion. So from a permaculture perspective thats kind of how I was looking at it. So I have a bit of a technical background and I know software and hardware but I didnt want to get into this and have to man these servers and deal with basically a centralized system that I would have to babysit and maintain and all these things. Im a musician and I remember coming across Napster for the first time and saying you know the music industry is really gonna [going to] get hit with this one, and seeing it all unfold and understanding really the power of decentralisation and that you cant shut it down. And so I was looking for a decentralized open source digital

currency you know, I figured someone had to be. There were several things that I had found already; other software projects, other digital currency concepts that people were playing around with, and I figured someone had to be working on some kind of open source decentralized version, and so thats what I googled and thats how I found Bitcoin. And it was early stages but because I had done so much research on local currencies and alternative currencies, it just blew me away. So I kinda [kind of] lost myself in the Bitcoin thing for a while because Bitcoin is so huge and prior to finding Bitcoin, trying to design a currency that would add and give value to us was prior to Bitcoin. So when I discovered Bitcoin then it was all post-Bitcoin, Bitcoin solved all these problems without having to back it with ethanol its inherently valuable as it is, so that was just fascinating. It was fascinating but it didnt solve the problem that I was trying to solve, which was issuing a currency that would be backed that would be centralized. So I kinda [kind of] set that project aside; the whole ethanol thing and I chipped away at it and whatnot, but it wasnt until the conference; the San Jose conference where I kinda [kind of] realized that with the colour coins and Ripple and Open Transactions I bumped into a fellow traveller there and the Colour Coins actually facilitates that was more to the extent I was looking for; it solves the problem that I was looking for, and prior to going to the conference I didnt really understand Ripple. I wasnt sure what they were trying to accomplish, what was going on but after I talked to the guys I realized thats exactly what theyre doing is making a way to issue a currency that would be backed by I think they call it Gateways but its essentially a trusted third party. So youve got Colour Coins which are a decentralized asset backed currency that kind of lives on the block chain, and youve got Ripple which is a more centralized version, and then youve got Open Transactions which is a federated version, but youve got these different attempts at solving this problem. So I decided to pick it back up and at least work on the designing of that aspect of it you know, its a large complicated project. AD: [0.19.43] OK. So does that bring us up to the present? NC: [0.19.45] That brings us up to the present.

AD: [0.19.47] OK. So whats next? NC: [0.19.49] Well that I dont know. To be honest there are a few things that I was kinda [kind of] waiting for to come through, David Blume has his distillation company and so he has clients that are purchasing distillation facilities from him you know, possibly proposing some of these ideas to him and theres also this enzyme Im trying to get a hold of to make it easier and less expensive, it combines the fermentation with the sacrification process. Thats another thing; and also Im not a programmer so when it comes to actually making some of the Colour Coin stuff work; I kinda [kind of] just have to wait for it to evolve. AD: [0.20.29] So when youre talking about Colour Coins, could this be implemented through an alternative crypto-currency? NC: [0.20.36] Like an alternative block chain? AD: [0.20.38] Yeah like an alternative block chain. NC: [0.20.39] You know initially I thought about that when I first you know, thats why I was looking for an open source version was because I was possibly going to use it and design it. Im not the biggest fan of alternative block chains simply because of the hash rate issue. AD: [0.20.56] So the hash rate though is tied to issuings basically, Its tied to issuings, its tied to security there are a few other things that its tied to but it seems like what you are talking about is almost like, your proof of work can only be done by a certain type of person with a certain type of asset; you know property essentially who is able and has the equipment or at least part of that process to make it. So to a certain extent its almost like the issuings doesnt come from the block chain; it comes from real life and then needs to be translated into the block chain. NC: [0.21.26] Right yeah exactly. AD: [0.21.28] And then theres like a redemption mechanism that you have to develop where like they can trade on their own but at

some point, at any point somebody can take one or many of these and redeem them for the actual fuel. NC: [0.21.41] And thats where youre right in that sense that security is not as paramount because its hard to make it; youre dealing with a third party its kinda [kind of] hard to fraud the system. Essentially if youre using Colour Coins and its like if you have a coupon or a credit card anyone can see your credit card number if they want to steal from you they can, I mean you can leave the private key exposed; I dont know I havent quite figured out exactly how to do it or how to propose it. AD: [0.22.12] So youre still definitely thinking this one out? NC: [0.22.14] Yeah Im still thinking it out, which is why Ive stayed really quiet about this because I havent quite figured it out. AD: [0.22.21] I think its a really interesting idea, I think that it actually sounds pretty actionable too but you know what I mean, thats fairly plausible we hear about all coin concepts and different Colour Coin concepts occasionally. NC: [0.22.31] Yeah, well in this its definitely a bit of a departure from the Bitcoin world which is very block chain focused you know, or Bitcoin focused. AD: [0.22.40] Well weve been talking about this global local thing that crypto-currencies enable, Bitcoin is certainly is something but Bitcoin for the purposes youre talking about focuses more on local because its all about developing and enabling relationships between producers and consumers and the ability to trade is really almost secondary to that because the only relationship is between the producer and the consumer, it just depends on who the consumers winds up being; you trade who that is. NC: [0.23.05] Exactly. One of the issues I was trying to solve is possibly expanding this local network so you know, this is great if you want to drive around your local city but what if you wanna [want to] drive across country, ideally you could have a network and an IPhone app that would link you up to local ethanol

producers that would be willing to participate in this network, so Im still thinking it through. AD: [0.23.27] Well Nathaniel thats a really interesting idea we look forward to hearing how it develops, are you looking for help at this point? Is there a way people can contact you? NC: [0.23.34] Yeah, openalcohol.org is the website Ive been sitting on for a while, info@openalcohol.org would be a way to get hold of me. And yeah any ideas, thoughts, help; Im actually just kinda [kind of] happy to get this out of my head and out. AD: [0.23.53] So are you intending to do this as an open source project? NC: [0.23.55] Absolutely, open source and open model; ideally I wanted to kind of take the concept and do it and prove that it could work, you know at least even the production of the ethanol and run the numbers and do it as an open business model and I implore anyone to get the book and take a look at it, its fascinating. AD: [0.24.17] What was the name again? NC: [0.24.18] Alcohol Can Be A Gas by David Blume. Because he proposes an open business model thats solid, its a solid AD: [0.24.30] Well something is valuable that youre talking about, its a lot easier to say that than it is about it intangibly. NC: [0.24.35] Yeah, and it provides employment and values local economies and all these things that seem to be a problem. AD: [0.24.43] Sustainability, absolutely. OK great, well thank you for stopping by today Nathaniel, Im glad we had a chance to do this. NC: [0.24.50] Yeah, you too.

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AD: [0.25.55] Right now were joined by Elizabeth Ploshay who recently won the first elected board seat on the Bitcoin foundation on an individual board, so Elizabeth thank you very much for joining us today. EP: [0.26.06] Thanks Adam its a privilege to get to speak to you guys today, yeah so Im really excited first of all to serve on the Bitcoin foundation board I see that theres a lot of potential for just growth of the Bitcoin community and Ive been privileged to serve with Bitcoin magazine; its a joy to be involved in the Bitcoin community. AD: [0.26.22] We just ended what was a much more contentious election than I really thought it would be and the candidates that were running were absolutely incredible as far their credentials were concerned, what do you credit your victory to?

EP: [0.26.35] You know one of the main things about this election showed all the wonderful candidates who are involved and how many ideas there are, and I guess I was able to get some support by being available to a lot of the different members of the community and getting ideas for it and having some organisation to my platform and I really look forward to working with the other candidates who ran. It was a very close win but they had tons of wonderful ideas, ideas regarding regulations, specifically international outreach; I see that this is an opportunity for the Bitcoin community to come together so we can all work together and Im really looking forward to working with the other candidates. AD: [0.27.09] Where do you see the education movement going now, because it seems like the problem that we had six month ago education was much more of a problem, there are better examples now. What do you think is important to move to next? EP: [0.27.20] Well Im very privileged actually to now serve on the education committee on the Bitcoin foundation and I see that right now we just need better organisation of our resources and weve got various new sites, we have different forms and whatnot but its absolutely key that we get the word out more and also be more in tuned to the individuals who dont yet know about Bitcoin, but who are warmer audiences so you know, I dont think from a more limited government type of perspectives but also other groups of people around the world; women in particular who need to learn about how Bitcoin applies to their lives so I think its going to be moving Bitcoin away from just a currency; that say software developers use to something that even women who run household finances can use. AD: [0.28.02] So whats required to make that happen? EP: [0.28.05] We just need more resources out there, so specifically with the Bitcoin foundation I hope to help it become more of an information aggregate so have a better listing of resources and even simple how too guides, sometimes people just want this consolidated in to a few bullet points just how it applies to their life.

AD: [0.28.25] So used cases? Right? Thats what were talking about? Were talking about the need to be used cases where I as a woman would then look at this and say; oh yes this applies to my life. So I mean is thatIm trying to figure out what this is, is that educational materials? Is that better wallet tools that are more usable? EP: [0.28.44] Educational materials and also organisation of those materials also, people having opportunity to share how they coin and how they pack their life so for example, there are a lot more women getting involved; theres a woman in Bitcoin group that started up on the west coast here in the United States theres also even for example someone in the Bitcoin wife and she has a daily blog where she puts out information about how she as a wife and a mother is using Bitcoin and so more people in the community are speaking out. And then also have tour guides that are more comprehensive as well in terms of wallet development, and also Bitcoin business and then taking it to the next level in terms of regulation and policy. AD: [0.29.26] So before you got into the Bitcoin space, you were involved in middle east policy? EP: [0.29.30] Yes. AD: [0.29.31] And thats an area thats important to you, thats a passionate area for you? EP: [0.29.33] Yes. AD: [0.29.34] So weve had a conversation before and youve told me Bitcoin has a real impact on that type of culture too, almost even more so than in other places. Why is that? EP: [0.29.45] Well Bitcoin opens up the door for freedom of speech and individual rights around the world and in a lot of these countries, unfortunately [the] government has a very constricting place in terms of finances; for example right now Bitcoin is growing in Iran and the Iranian Rial are sinking in value due to inflation and Bitcoin provides a way out. Bitcoin again is a catalyst towards that

more privacy, decentralized type of movement as well, in other place too Bitcoin is just growing tremendously is Israel, were seeing there are a lot of technological development in these areas and Bitcoin again is Id say a slap in the face to a lot of regimes that are repressive. And its also a gateway too for various countries that are unfortunately again having inflated currency and also subject to sanctions. AD: [0.30.33] One of the major platforms that you ran on was this idea of internationalising the Bitcoin foundation structure, right? And yet you are an American citizen which seems to be a bit of a contradiction for some voters out there. EP: [0.30.50] Right. AD: [0.30.51] So do you think that that matters at all? I mean clearly you dont think that that matters but tell me, how do we do this? How do we take this structure that started off as a very US centric organisation and that looks like its continuing along that way, at least as far as how its interfacing with regulators and role makers its not going over to Europe and doing that. So whats the path forward for internationalisation? EP: [0.31.13] Well I see that there are tons of phenomenal Bitcoin leaders around the world and several of the candidates who ran our really spear-headed movements within their country, and I really do feel like its important that we continue to develop Bitcoin foundation chapters in various countries, the process has already been started and I look forward to being more involved with that after our first board meeting in October. You know what, just having these leaders provide reports back to the foundation on how Bitcoin specifically grows in their country Im just amazed at all the different conferences that are taking place, weve got several coming up in Canada in October then weve got India in December and Argentina in December and just various conferences around the world and thats another important way to hook in members, you know and those societies and get them connected personally to Bitcoin. So I see that again the foundation yes it is geographically appoints based in the United States but at the same time the international membership is just growing and we

need to be able to have leaders in those countries strengthened with tools, and even another component is the educational component in getting resources translated into various languages whether its Chinese or Spanish or you name it; theres the strengthened leaders there providing tools and resources and educational material and also thinking about various conferences in those countries. AD: [0.32.35] Do these wind up being autonomous individual units or do they wind up being chapters? EP: [0.32.41] You know I dont know yet the full direction of the foundation and I look forward to learning more but I would say more so chapters, obviously there already are autonomous units and anything from Bitcoin meet up groups to larger you know; theres a Bitcoin embassy in Canada for example but its cool to have the model which I proposed in my platform of organising centralisation so each chapter being unique but also kind of connected to a core ideology involving Bitcoin. AD: [0.33.14] Right. But ideology doesnt necessarily implyI guess the question that Im asking is more along the lines of is the US foundation the most important, is it the centre? EP: [0.33.26] Well I AD: [0.33.28] What rules the centre? Are the ideals the centre? EP: [0.33.32] Well its hard to say because its a working progress and the US foundation was just founded a little over a year ago so I would say that this is an opportunity for us to try and see what model works best, so right now foundation chapters are developing around the world and it will be interesting to see how that all evolves and obviously the standards for one foundation chapter; say in India might be very different to one in Germany or the UK, I mean we just have to see what works best because at the end of the day we all have the same goal to strengthen Bitcoin and get the word out and so thats the most important things instead of getting caught up in the rules and regulations of all of it.

AD: [0.34.10] Stepping away from the foundation and your role there for a second weve just seen the demise of silk road it seems like, and this had a kind of pronounced impact on the Bitcoin market although it seems to have been very brief. Im wondering, I have a sense that if this had happened a year ago this would have been a much bigger deal as far as both the price but also in terms of the perception of Bitcoin, and Ive been a little surprised at how little of an impact it seems to have had even though this is arguably one of the original and largest markets that accepted Bitcoin; it did a lot of volume too. What do you think is happening here? EP: [0.34.52] Well I think that Bitcoin is more and more becoming a legitimate currency I mean its a force to be reckoned with if you think about it, you know there are so many businesses now accepting and using Bitcoin for legal activities and you know Bitcoin is still strong despite the close down of Silk Road, and again I mean it just shows also excess government regulation. Bitcoin has come out the top again and yeah a year ago not as many businesses werent using Bitcoin, Bitcoin wasnt in the news as much, the value of Bitcoin wasnt as high as it is today but you know you can tell if something is strong if it continues to take hits and I just see this as another opportunity for governments around the world to listen and wake up and see that people want to put their finances and invest their time and money into something that is stronger than most fiat currencies. AD: [0.35.43] I actually wanted to ask you about that, so you know we talk a lot about regulation and one of the questions we dont talk about a lot is what would good regulation look like? What would like a beneficial outcome but a realisticnot like they say that theyre going to completely ignore it and you dont have to pay tax on it; I dont really think that thats in the cards but I mean is there a good regulatory outcome? EP: [0.36.06] Well I would just say clarity is necessary at this point, sitting here in the United States we really dont have clarity much on tax law; we just need a better idea of what to expect; a lot of businesses especially are gonna [going to] be hit hard if they dont know specifically how to operate, also the government in particular

needs to understand the difference between an exchange in the Bitcoin related business; thats whats needed I dont think regulations are needed and I am a opponent of the most limited government type of standpoint but again clarity is essential so how can a business know what to expect if the guidelines and things are put out are very ambiguous. AD: [0.36.47] Right and the expectation is very important because expectation allows you to plan accurately. EP: [0.36.52] Exactly, yep. AD: [0.36.55] You know the Bitcoin community is growing in waves and I think that the early waves; a lot of them could be characterized as crypto-anarchists or idealists or you know people who embraced Bitcoin because it solved a problem that they had for a long time, and then weve had entrepreneurial people enter the space and start to build businesses that were a little bit different it wasnt so much about the ideology. Im curious where do you think the next generation of Bitcoin users is going to come from or what type, you know how do we go about reaching those people? EP: [0.37.23] Well I think its absolutely crucial to look at college campuses and universities; this is where most movements start and unfortunately a lot of college students here in the US specifically are being taught Keynesian economics and they need to recognize just the value of you know laws affair, free market economics, Austrian school of economics and how Bitcoin ties into all of that. So theres huge growth potential because a lot of these students in the United States and around the world are going to be graduating from school with hefty student loans looking for careers and Bitcoin is a promising solution, there is tons of growing opportunities in the Bitcoin space and in addition its an investment opportunity. I would say that working with just kind of reaching out to college students; getting them motivated about this because it encompasses a lot of things its encompasses individual responsibility, it encompasses libertarian ideals, it encompasses limited government principles, its encompasses financial future and growth. So thats a huge market I hope to kind of process

forward on the Bitcoin foundation board, just to be thinking about the future because people need to understand their children for example, have a financial future and the best financial future is invested in Bitcoin. AD: [0.38.34] Most of the time when we talk to people in the space their actually not the college age, if they are collage aged they tend to be in like masters programmes but theyre generally older than twenty five; its kinda [kind of] rare to find somebody under twenty five these days who is seriously out doing the Bitcoin space. So you think that the younger generation; like eighteen to like twenty three demographic, thats the thing. EP: [0.38.53] Well I definitely think so and theyve already been various meet ups on college campuses I mean the meet up system is really neat on getting people to come together with these similar ideas and there are various groups on campus that are already taking to this, for example students for Liberty Im excited to meet with some students for Liberty and representatives here at the crypto-currency conference and just kinda [kind of] talk with them, strategize and get a climate for what its like on college campuses but certainly there are a lot of different movements; anything from various political groups at the college level which translates into the national level its just an opportunity for people to kind of find their niche and then move forward and you know see how it can impact a future career as well as get them connected to movers and shakers in the community. AD: [0.39.35] So are we talking about specifically about people who are already predisposed to this sort of thinking? Because again you talk about students for Liberty, thats a group that understand the problem with money and therefore they can appreciate the better money but thats the thing that I always run into when I talk to people who are too young; they dont have the experience with the current system to understand why it sucks. EP: [0.39.57] Right, well there are a different political type of groups on campuses and I think its just that showing individuals how Bitcoin applies to their life so providing them with resources and honestly a lot of movements are started by finding people who are leaders in the community regardless of if theyre involved in

Bitcoin or not and getting them latched in and helping teach them how it applies to their life and helping them then evangelize to their peers about it. AD: [0.40.24] So they get viral? EP: [0.40.25] Yeah it does get viral really fast, especially when you start learning about Bitcoin and all the benefits. AD: [0.40.32] Well Elizabeth, thank you very much were gonna go enjoy this party at the BitPay office and its great to have you again on Lets Talk Bitcoin. EP: [0.40.38] OK thanks Adam.

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AT: [0.41.39] As humans we share little in common but that little we do share is a deep core of our being, we search for purpose we are curious and we thrive on new information. Our self-awareness, rationality and sapience are the high level features that make up a

person, they are our capacity for good or evil; as people we need to ask ourselves whether we act with purpose, intent and ambition. Ask how we are defining ourselves and what other values that our lives are promoting. Are you taking concrete steps now to achieve your objective? Its important we ask ourselves these questions and decide which end of the spectrum between liberty and security we fixate on; a safe life of luxury in comfort closed in by four walls? Or a life of a freedom, freedom to make love, play loud music, create art, wrestle naked and raise confident kids that think. In criticising the world we are born into it is easy to point the finger at this or that politician or resign problems to circumstance, and with the perceived lack of power to conceit the situation is unfixable and utterly broken but if we want to know who to blame we need only to look into a mirror. We support the situation it is people not rulers who create the world of today, some of us conclude that the situation is just a normal state of affairs in simply human nature; as if there was one human nature and disregarding that we all evolve and grow as people in different directions during our lives. Think of the values we are taught as children, how we are taught to behave as civic citizens, the phrases we are taught by our parents, teachers and friends. The system is not just the state and corporations it is a machine encompassing all spheres of life, you might hear for example respect for authority figures is a sign of maturity, men with good jobs dress smart and respectably; work hard for a good job and a good life, retire young. Dont talk to strangers life is about money, money makes the world go round. I was told all of these sentences in my life that learning to accept authority is an inevitable part of growing up, that my character is defined by how I look not how I act, that my single purpose is to be a work slave, to avoid interactions with random unknowns outside my circle and the responsibly starts and stops with myself. All of them are bad values, we are not born with these values they are hardwired into us from a young age; luckily knowledge feeds the unlearning process and in the internet is an unlearning tool. Have you ever questioned the fifteen years of our precious childhood from kindergarten to high school? We attend the prison with fixed schedules and dinner at an allocated time, were forced to wear uniforms, if you want to speak you need to raise your hand, if you need the toilet you must ask permission and the lessons amount to

a little more than drilling information with the given promise of honours and qualifications. The reward for faithfully jumping through all these hoops for fifteen years is a worthless piece of paper that isnt even required for a job at McDonalds, and the workers still need training. Our children arent taught how to cook a healthy meal, grow a garden or even a rudimentary concept of how to organize or lead groups of people, without even a glimmer of understanding on how to resolve conflict without violence. All the principles of logic and how to question an ideology, kids are taught how to sit at a desk and listen obediently as the world is packaged into neat little boxes. School is little more than a training camp for salute drones designed to format young minds for a life of subservience; too stupid question the system itself or the authority of those running it. We are not born with bad values; they are wired into us from a young age. Lets talk about good values; responsibility is about filling your needs to have a dignified existence and then expanding that circle to the people around you, to help bring up and out the potential of other free people. Together we can thrive, community and collective action is absolutely essential if we want to rise up. The system thrives by separating people into isolated pockets who get their information from TV and their culture from corporations, united together we are stronger. Perez Inumaru. Independence and autonomy is the ability to act, if we always need third parties and central organisation to resolve disputes, solve our problems and co-ordinate us then we are doomed as a species. Central authorities are always a magnificent corruption and that will never change, learn to be self-reliant and make things happen. Understanding is not an easy skill to develop but it is very powerful, being able to get into peoples minds to listen and to be able to meet their needs is leadership, a leader serves and inspires people into action; where as a ruler uses coercion for all their grander and force, rulers cannot harness the real potential of people, nobody thinks under duress. We need assertive individuals who stand unyielding for what they believe in, if you know something is right then fight for your vision it will happen; the system feeds of passivity and giving consent to its exclusive hold of force feeds the machine, lastly lets approach the world as artists and bring creativity to our work. The world is diverse, colourful and

vibrant, humans are not meant to live in little boxes and great concrete jungles. Live art and be creative, your work is art; good art makes people think and feel. The role of good people is the Vanguard of tomorrow; Plato said the penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. Its an old story David versus Goliath, Starfleet rebels versus Galactic death star, anarchist revolutionaries versus the fascists; both sides have existed for centuries and the struggle continues. However in recent decades with the unique political situation, the internet and a dawning awareness amongst people the balance of power is shifting in our favour this time around. Humans can look to a future less dominated by the command hierarchies of the past and more by thriving market places of knowledge and merit, I remember an amateur blue webpage in the summer of twenty ten describing a peer to peer currency that cannot be controlled by governments or central banks. Extremely sceptical I dived into the cold and discovered an idea which burnt itself in my memory, my mind latched on to Bitcoin I realised this unknown project is the future of money. Bitcoin is a tool of resistance gifted to us by Satochi, that idea has escaped and that idea of crypto-currency will not be stopped, Bitcoin or some other crypto-currency will succeed. Bitcoin is about direct trade from peer to peer, the purest value transfer possible between two or more people; a direct and personal interaction over digital infrastructure. Welcome to the future of the black market; real values, real people and uncorrupted markets, the internet is a tool of freedom and selfdetermination, meddling in its mechanics is destructive. Whenever a website is blocked a protocol is corrupted at some low level or undesirable traffic shaping occurs, these seismic ripples of sensor ship and destruction lead to degradation of the network. The internet is fundamental to society and must be protected at all costs; Bitcoin is no different and must be kept pure. There are real risks to Bitcoin; the protocol is not fixed, is not an axiomatic system established by Satochi; its been constantly changing and rapidly evolving and the pace is accelerating. Risks are more subtle and probable than a government demanding changes to the fundamentals Bitcoins protocol. The chilling effect of selfcensorship, we dont even need to touch the protocol as Bitcoin grows the inevitable specialisation is kicking in as the block chain is moving towards specialized surfaces and the future of full

Bitcoin nodes on the server, not personal computers. We have to wake up, adapt and work with the reality rather than persisting in self-denial. If development is too centralized with a small core infrastructure then businesses will put real pressure to have features that destroy the integrity of the Bitcoin network, the excuse will be to protect themselves from liability, self-censorship and what they demand does not have to be protocol changes they will demand features in the software they use, software which remains compatible with the network but works against the interests of individuals small businesses and the black market. The possible malicious scenarios are endless, stuff like peer to peer black lists to create a legitimate walled garden or tracking technologies like large databases of IP addresses to triangulate where transactions came from. At the other end of the spectrum is putting development effort into diversifying the ecosystem to protect against censorship, and proxy relay nodes anonymising mix makes a small privacy tweaks and other technologies. Thats where developers who believe in Bitcoin should devote time to, corporations are powerful enough, to developers serve your community. A diversified Bitcoin of many wallets and implementations is a strong and pure Bitcoin, to protect the integrity of the network we need to eliminate single points of failure, an inbred Bitcoin with the same software code everywhere shares the same weaknesses and its acceptable to the same attacks. A single pathogen can wipe out a genetically homogenous population and centralize software is vulnerable to the dictates of whoever controls development of that software code on any dictates pressured on to them. The implications of a diversified Bitcoin is a Bitcoin difficult to control, it also sets the protocol in stone as nobody has sole power over the standard. Consensus from many parties is the way forward; the proper way to develop a standard is by having many different competing parties that require mutual interest and agreement to pass through changes. History is rife with abuse like when internet explorer dominated the browser market and constantly broke the web standard by introducing proprietary extensions, their motive was to swallow the market and lock users into internet explorer; the result was a broken web. A monopoly likes to dominate the market, shut out competitors and erect high barriers for entry. A diversified ecosystem protects

against feature creep or bloat of the standard, extra features go beyond the basic function of Bitcoin and so can result in over complication rather than simple design. Viewed over a longer time period extra or unnecessary features seem to creep into the system beyond the initial goals and a small code of fifteen thousand lines set by Satochi, the result will be a Bitcoin that becomes increasingly difficult to understand or implement, with that huge initial investment of resources, time and people. No single person will fully understand Bitcoin anymore and development monopolies will be further enforced, Linux is the most secure operating system because of its diversity; there is no single one exploit that is universal across all versions of Linux. Bitcoin must evolve in the same way to become a resilient and tough system able to serve global audience, a massive standard is difficult to re-implement, Satochi Nakamoto gifted us a small focused and pure Bitcoin. There is no need for compromize, lets push for our complete vision; Bitcoin is here we have the initiative and we make our stand now, we have the power and now is the time; not later, now. Within a century of the printing press being invented, wars, social strife and revolutions erupted across Europe. Old kings revered religious leaders and tyrannical rulers were removed from power, people could now read what was written in their bibles; mass printing of the bible was subversive and what was written in their bibles is not what they were being fed. In the face of hard evidence people were dispelled old notions of what their religion was saying, our economy will change, Bitcoin will rise as a fundamental technology seeking approval from the halls of Washington and consent from the status quo is mere pandering as lapdogs at the feet of the system. Why would you willingly give your power away? Are you stupid? Some people make the argument that throwing Bitcoin under the bus and corrupting the core of this technology is needed to help businesses, which specialize in the exchange of failing government fiat paper money, with Bitcoins. Are we willing to sacrifice the purity of this tool for a few short-term gains that primarily benefit US corporations? Do they serve the need of Bitcoin? Others even go further, arguing that we need the masses, that been a majority protects people from assaults, typical herd mentality, and that regulation, and the measures to implement

them are a typical process of acceptance. I have news for you, majorities have been slaughtered like pigs all throughout history, been pragmatic is code speak for obedience and cowardice. Bitcoin is the future, act like you believe it, act to prevent corruption of the system, act to prevent Bitcoin been courted in anyway, we must preserve the principles of Satoshi Nakamoto. We have the power and the initiative, you know the truth of the world, stop supporting your own enemies, we dont them, they need us! You are the one empowering them, withdraw your consent, withdraw your support dont accept there terms or try to win a game where they set the rules. Dont try to win your rulers favour. Dont bother to beg for welfare or good treatment, worst of all; dont help them hunt down your neighbour. [Its] Time we stick our flag in the ground and make our stand. Wired reported in September that the Bitcoin foundation is joining a taskforce to combat child pornography. Our taskforce will offer balanced effective solutions for policy makers, law enforcements, regulators and the public. The task force which launched in August is not solely focused child exploitation, the report detailed how criminal and terrorist organisations have turned to digital currency to reap profits from drug trafficking, prostitution and a dissemination of child abuse images, close quote. One day master told slave, do this small thing and everything is fine, keep up the good work. The slave was happy because not much was asked so he started to create something really cool. The master walked in a week later and said, do this as well. The slave was shocked, but master, we had an agreement, you said I only had to do this. Master responded; I changed my mind; you need to do this as well. The slave reluctantly agreed, at least it wasnt that bad. Over time the master more and more increased his demands on the slave, by now the slave had created something totally wonderful and was dependant on it, but the master controlled his work and owned him. The task of an activist is not to negotiate systems of power with as much personal integrity as possible; its to dismantle those systems, close quote. The road is long and real work is needed, less talk and more

action. There are too few people in this world working on worthwhile things for the people, but even though the work load is immense and daunting, there are concrete steps to achieve the global objective, truth happens, we will succeed, dont wait around for others to take action, we must dive head first without regard for consequences and beak the inertia of passivity. When enough people do this, real change will occur. Fight for what you believe in, if you believe and uphold a truth, then all your energy should be devoted to your objectives, any time you are accepting compromize you are acting against your objective. None of us are pure, we are all flawed and imperfect, but as good people we must strive for uncomplicated directness in our actions, our actions must be transparent in motive and pure in reasoning. The power is within us, it always has been.

AD: : Thanks for listening to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin, content for todays show was provided by Nathaniel Castro, Elizabeth Ploshay and Amir Taaki. Additional editing was provided by Mathew Zipkin, on location engineering, by Krystal Levine. And music was provided by Jared Rubens. If you cant get enough original thought and discussion read our daily blog at letstalbitcoin.com, set up for our weekly newsletter at theweeklybitcoin.com. To get in touch send an email directly at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com or visit letstalkbitcoin.com/talk to be directed to our listeners sub Reddit. See you next time. --- Music fades out ---