p.

Should the United States be the Worlds Policeman?

[music]
AmbassadorVolker:Ladiesandgentlemen,goodevening.Welcome.Pleasekeep
fillinginandtakingseats.IwanttowelcomeyoutokickoffoftheMcCainInstitute's
DebateandDecisionsSeriesforthefallof2015.
We'vebeenatthisforaboutayearandahalftotwoyearsnow.Westrivetobring
challengingissuestothetable.Wepresentdifferentpointsofview.
Wetrytomakesureit'snotpartisan.Thewholepointistoteeuptheargumentsandthe
choicesthatourcountryhastofaceanddifferentissuesofpolicy.
TheMcCainInstitutewasfoundedtohonorSenatorandMrs.McCainintheirlegacyof
servicetothecountryandtheirfamily'slegacygoingbackgenerations.McCainInstitute
ispartofArizonaStateUniversity,butbasedhere,principallyinWashingtonDC.
Wehaveprogramstopromotecharacterdrivenleadershiptoworkintheareasof
humanitarianwork,humanrights,nationalsecurity,lawandgovernance,andwehave
beenparticularlyactivethroughtheeffortsofMrs.McCainincombatinghuman
trafficking,andthere'salottotalkaboutthere.
Youcanfindallofthisinformationonourwebsite,mccaininstitute.org,youcanalsofind
moreinformationonourprograms,youcanfindvideosofourpastdebates,wherewe've
debatedissuessuchaswhethertheUSshouldsaveSyria,whetherweshouldwithdraw
fromAfghanistan,ontheCubaUSrelationshipdidCubawin?Great,richarchiveof
informationthere.
Tonight,we'reveryfortunatetohavebackwithusaterrificmoderatorforthesedebates,
heistheradiocorrespondentforFoxNewsattheWhiteHouse,andrecently,electedto
theWhiteHouseCorrespondentsGoverningBoard,socongratulationstothat.He'sgoing
tointroducethedebaterstonightforthequestionshouldtheUnitedStatebetheworld's
policeman.
Letmeintroducetoyourourmoderatorforthisevening,JohnFox,forFixNewsRadio.
[laughs]Sorryaboutthat,IusedtoworkwithaguynamedJohnFox.JohnDecker,Fox
News,WhiteHousecorrespondent.Thankyou.
[applause]
JohnDecker:Thankyouverymuch,AmbassadorVolker,foraskingmetomoderate
tonight'sdebate.

p.2

ThankyoutoSenatorMcCainwhohopefullywillbearrivingveryshortly,andthankyou
toallofyouwhoareintheaudiencetonight.Wehopethattonight'sdebateinformsyou
asourpanelistsdebateanddiscusswhetherAmericashouldbetheworld'spoliceman.
Thetopicoftonight'sdebateisparticularlytimely,astheUSfacesintensepressureboth
hereathomeandabroad,tostepupitsroleinprovidingrefugetotensofthousandsof
refugeesfromwartornSyria,andalso,leadthefightagainstISIS.
IntheaftermathofthewarsinIraqandAfghanistan,therehasbeenadeep,andImight
addbipartisanreluctancetointerfereinforeignconflicts.
Thereasonsvary,butthereisgeneralconsensusthatUSinterventionswillexacttoohigh
apriceinbloodandtreasureforuncertainstrategicgains.ButwiththepostColdWar
globalorderupended,therearerenewedcallsbysomeinterventionistsfortheUSto
reassertitself,andlead.
ProponentsoftheideathatAmericashouldserveastheworld'spoliceman,asyouwill
heartonight,arguethatwiththeArabworldunraveling,ChinaandRussiadominatingits
neighbors,andISISmetastasizing,theUSmuststepup,andinthewordsof"TheWall
StreetJournal's"BretStephens,"Enforcesomebasicglobalnorms,deterourenemies,
andreassureourfriends."
ButopponentsofthisapproachsaythatAmericaneedstofixitsownproblems
domesticallybeforeitcanpolicetheworld.TheyalsoarguethatwhileAmericashould
playakeyroleinworkingtoresolveissuesaroundtheworld,itshoulddosointhe
contextofworkingwithitsinternationalpartners.
Thedebateteams...Wehaveanimpressivepanelofexpertsassembledtonighttodiscuss
theseissues,andletmeintroducethem.
Ourfirstteam,whichwillarguethatAmericashouldbetheworld'spolicemen,consists
ofTomDonnelly,whoisaresidentfellowandcodirectoroftheMarilynWareCenter
forSecurityStudiesatAEI,theAmericanEnterpriseinstitute,andJulianneSmith,whois
aseniorfellowanddirectoroftheStrategyandStatecraftProgramattheCenterfora
NewAmericanSecurity.
JuliepreviouslyservedasthedeputynationalsecurityadvisortoVicePresidentJoe
Biden.
AndarguingthattheUSshouldbetheworld'spolicemenwillbetheteamofRichard
BurtandElizabethCobbs.RichardisthechairmanoftheNationalInterestAdvisory
Board.HeservedasUSambassadortoGermanyduringtheReaganadministration,and
wasachiefnegotiatoroftheStrategicArmsReductionTreatywiththeSovietUnion.
JoiningRichardisElizabethCobbs,whoistheMilbernG.GlasscockChairinAmerican
HistoryatTexasA&MUniversity.SheisalsoaNationalFellowatStanfordUniversity's
HooverInstitution.

p.3

Ifyouhavenotbeenatoneofthesedebatesbefore,letmetellyoutheformat.Theformat
fortonight'sdebateisstraightforward.Eachteamwillopentheirargumentwithfour
minutes.
Followingthat,eachteamthengetstwominutestorespondtotheothersopening
argument.Iwillthenmovethingsalongalittlefurtherwithafewquestions,inwhichthe
teamswillgettwominutestorespond.
That'swhenyouintheaudiencegetthechancetoaskquestions.Again,eachsidehasup
totwominutestoreply.
Thenfinally,attheendofthedebate,Iwillgotoeachofourpanelists,andaskthem,in
oneminute,tosumupwhatroleheorshebelievestheUSshouldtakeinforeignaffairs
aroundtheworld.
TomDonnellyandJulianneSmith,whydon'tgetthingsstarted.
JulianneSmith:Thankyouverymuchforthatintroduction.ThankstotheMcCain
Instituteforinvitingusheretonight.Thankstoallofyouforspendingsometimeona
Thursdayeveningtolistentothisdebate.I'mlookingforwardtoit.
TomandIare,asyouheard,intheaffirmativecampwhenitcomestoansweringthe
questionwhetherornottheUnitedStatesshouldbetheworld'spoliceman.Iwantto
thinkaboutwhatbeingtheworld'spolicemanactuallyentailsandwhatitmeans.
Ithinkwhenmanyofusthinkaboutpolicingrightoutofthegates,youtendtothink
aboutsomebodyinSWATgear,wearingKevlar,holdingaweaponinacrisis.Images
thatweseeontelevision.
WhatIwanttotalkaboutheretonightisawidearray,thefullspectrumoftasksthat
policeofficerstakeon.Thingslikewalkingabeat.Thingslikemaintainingcivilorder.
Communitypolicingwhereyoutryandbuildrelationshipswithotherstakeholderssothat
youcanserveyourinterestsandtheirs.Yes,youwanttodeterwouldbecriminalsand
occasionallyyou'vegotto,inthewordsofmyfiveyearoldson,fightthebadguys.
It'smorethanjustbrandishingaweaponandwalkingaroundshooting.Itrequiresafull
spectrumoftoolsandabilitiesandskillsets.DoesthatmeanthattheUnitedStateshasto
beeverywhereallthetime?I'mnotheretotellyouthatitshouldbe.I'mnotheretotell
youthatweshouldbesendinghundredsofthousandsoftroopsallaroundtheworldto
solveeveryproblem.
IdothinkwehavetobecleareyedabouttheuniqueattributesthattheUnitedStateshas.
Yes,wehaveresourceconstraints.Wehaveapublicthat'sunsureaboutthefutureof
militaryinterventions.Wehavesomeuncertaintyaboutwhetherornotwecanaffordto
focusonforeignpolicy,asJohnmentioned,whenwe'vegotarichdomesticagendahere
athome.

p.4

IalsothinkthattheUnitedStateshasalottoofferintermsofitsabilitytosecurethe
globalenvironment.Ithinktheseuniqueattributestakemanyshapes.Wehaveastrong
economy.
We'vegotaworldclassmilitary.We'vegotalotofdiplomaticheft.We'vegotanarrayof
alliancesandpartnershipsallovertheworld.We'vegottheabilitytoprojectpower.
We'vegotauniqueabilitytobuildcoalitions.
Forthatreason,I'mheretosupportdeepengagementbytheUnitedStates.Ithinkit's
somethingthatwecanofferandothercountriescan't.
Therefore,IguessI'llconcludebysayingthosethataregoingtotrytonight,our
colleagueshere,toargueformoreofaretrenchmentpositionIthinksometimes
underestimatethebenefitsofdeepengagementandoverestimateitscosts.
I'llleaveitatthat.
TomDonnelly:Verygood.IguessI'vegot90secondsorsototrytoelaborate
your...guildyourlily.Iwon'ttakeitall.
Iwouldjustliketostress,inconcludingouropeningremarks,howsuccessfultheUnited
StateshasbeensincetheendofWorldWarII,really,inbeingtheworld'spolicemanif
wehavetobendourselvestotheframeworkofthisquestion.
Americanpolicingoftheworldhasbeen,byanyhistoricalmeasure,aremarkably
successfulendeavor.Aremarkablypeacefulendeavor.Therehasn'treallybeenagreat
powerwarsincetheendofWorldWarII,somethingworthpreserving.
It'salsobeenamoremarkedlyprosperouserainhumanaffairs.Notjustforourselves,
butwe'verebuiltthecontinentofEuropeintoastillremarkablypeacefulandprosperous
place.We'veseentheriseofEastAsiaasaengineoftheglobaleconomy.
Finally,andreallyimportantfromanAmericanpointofview,it'sbeenamoralsuccess.
Peoplearefree,morepeoplearefree,governedbyfreegovernments,bygovernments
thatthey'veelected,oratleast,arerepresentativegovernmentsthanatanytimeinhuman
history.
Onethingthatweneedtotakeintoaccountisnotsimply,intheabstract,whetherthe
UnitedStatesshouldbetheworld'spolicemanornot,butifnot,whataretherealistic
alternatives?
Ithinkoverthelastcoupleofyearswe'vehadatasteofwhatthatmightlooklike.It
doesn'tlookverypleasanttome.IamreluctanttogiveupwhatAmericanpolicinghas
donefortheworld.
John:RickandElizabeth.

p.5

ElizabethCobbs:IthinkI'mtobegin.Thisisaplasticmomentinhistory.Toget
throughthisperiodofhistory,weneedtolookathistory.
AsTomhassaid,theUnitedStatesplayedavitalroleinthe70yearssinceWorldWarII
asakindofworldpoliceman,though,Ipreferthetermumpire,andhasdonesovery
successfullyandhasdonethisessentiallyfortworeasons.Thefirstreasonisthatthere
wasacryingneedatthetime.
Therewasanewworldsystem,democraticallyestablished,thatwasunderpressureand
thatwasuntested.Atthetime,therewerealltheothergreatpowers,China,Japan,
Germany,Britain,France,hadbeendevastatedbysixyearsofwar.
Therewasnoothercountrythatcouldstanduptoassistwiththissystemanditsdefense.
Americawasnotonlytheonlycountrythatcouldphysicallydoso,butwehadhad200
yearsofexperiencedoingjustthat.
TheUSfederalgovernmentwasdesignedbyJamesMadison,andAlexanderHamilton,
andGeorgeWashingtontoactastheysaid,asanumpirebetweensovereignstates,to
takedowntariffwalls,toenforcecommonrules,topreventwarsbetweensovereign
states.
Itdidsoverysuccessfully,whenthemomentcametheUnitedStatesreallydidjumpinto
therescue,moreorless,in1947,sothatthisnewstructureofworldorderwouldn'ttopple
beforeithadachancetosinkroots.
Nowhistorically,fortheUnitedStates,thiswasahugedeviationfromapatternof150
yearsofneutralityandnoninterventionthatdefinedourfirst150years,andthatallowed
UnitedStatestobecomethekindofprosperous,democraticcountrythatovertimeothers
wantedtoemulate,becausetheysawhowwellthissystemworked.Today,70yearslater,
thepictureisverydifferent.
CountriesofEurasia,EuropeandAsia,whicharetheareasmostpronetowar
historically,aremostlyprosperousandstrong,andthemajorityaredemocracy.
AstheUScontinuesinanemergencyrolethathascometoseemlikeourpermanentrole,
butdoesn'thavetobe.Aroleweundertookin1947.What'stheconsequence?Inaword,
dependency.Othersdonotundertakethehardworkthattheyneedtodo,thattheyknow
wewilldoortrytodoforthem.
Thetimehascometothinkbig.Tothinkhistorically,toplanboldlyforwherewewantto
bein70years.Anysystemthatrestsononepillar,largely,isn'tstable.Weneedtohand
backtoothercountriesandcultivateinthemtheselfreliancethatistheonlysureroadto
prosperity,success,andselfrespect.
John:Rick?Doyouwanttoaddanythingtothat?
Rick:Yeah,veryquickly.Letmesay,reallystipulateattheoutset,thatIdon't

p.6

necessarilyaccepttheideaofashiftingrolesthatLisahasoutlined.
Iwouldn'twanttoseeasradicaladeparturefromwherewearetodaythanmaybeshe
supports.ButIdothinkthattherearethreereasons,though,thattheUnitedStatesreally
can'tplaythiskindofpostWorldWarIItotheendoftheColdWarpolicemanposition
orroleinthe21stcentury.
First,ifyouthinkofyourselfasanexceptionalpower,anindispensablepower,then,it's
importantreallyeverythingthat'shappeningeverywhereisessentiallyimportant.It
meansthenthatyoucan'treallyprioritize,youcan'tdistinguishasGeorgeKennan
famouslysaidbetweencoreinterestsandperipheralinterests.
Ithinkwe'vefoundourselvesinsituations,andIwouldgiveoneexample,US
interventionwiththeEuropeansinLibyaasaperipheralinterest,whichendedupcreating
moreharmthangood.
WhereyoucanmaybeinpoliceworktakeaRudyGiulianiapproach,nobrokenwindows
approach,youcan'tdothatintermsofUSforeignpolicy.Youhavetosetpriorities,you
can'tsolveeveryproblem,andweneedtodistinguishbetweenwhatourvitalinterestsare
andourperipheralinterests.
Second,inlookingatagain,theideaoftheUSisapoliceman,ittendstobetiedwhen
peoplemakethisargument,itwasdonehereearlier,wherethekeygoalofUSforeign
policybecomesdemocracypromotion,ornationalbuilding,orspreadingourvalues
worldwide.That,inmyview,isaverydangerousenterprise.
Wearenotgoodatdemocracypromotion,wearenotgoodatnationbuilding,justlookat
therecordofthelast15yearsintheMiddleEast,andwearegettingtothepointwherein
ordertomakeacasefordoingthis,wewanttogoafterandsomebodysaidtheir
fiveyearoldisabadguy,Americanpubliclikestheideaofaforeignpolicythatgoes
afterbadguys.
ButwhenyoulookataproblemlikeISIS,theironyoffightingISISisthatthegood
guys,socalledgoodguysintheMiddleEast,arefriendsandallies.TheSaudis,the
Turks,they'renothelpingusoutonISIS.Thepeoplewhoarethelogicalpeopleto
supportinfightingISISarethebadguys.TheIranians,Hezbollah,andothers.
WhatweseenowemerginginanarealiketheMiddleEastisakindofsectarian30years
warinwhichtherearenogoodguys,andit'sveryhardthentopursueapolicybased
aroundextendingyourvalues,then,worryingaboutyourinterests.
Finally,IwouldarguethatthereisalwaysthetemptationtoequateAmericanforeign
policyandconstraintsonAmericanforeignpolicywithmilitaryintervention.
Wehavegottoform,Ithink,amoreholisticunderstandingofforeignpolicythatgoes
beyondjustmilitaryintervention.ThecurrentdebateovertheIrandealIthink
underscoresthatwhenmanyofthecriticsoftheIrandealbasicallyarguethatthis

p.7

shouldn'thavebeenakindofclassicalnegotiationwherebothsidesgetsomethingoutof
it.
ButitshouldhavebeenasurrenderceremonyontheBattleshipMissourithatthefactthat
itwasabalancedagreementmakesitsomehowdangerousandwrong.
It'slikewhenIwasanegotiatorwiththeSovietUnion,ifcomingbackwithanagreement
thatallowedtheRussianstohaveanynuclearweaponswouldhavebeenunderstandable
andcomprehensibletopeople.
Butforsomereasonnow,increasingly,diplomacyandstatecraftarenolongerseenas
vitalinUSforeignpolicy,it'smoreaquestionofhowtodeployanduseAmerican
militarypower.
Thebottomlineis,theUnitedStatesneedstobemoreselectiveinhowitthinksaboutits
prioritiesabroad,itneedstobeguidedbynationalinterestsnotvaluespromotion,andit
needstohaveadiplomaticorstatecraftleddoctrineratherthanjustsimplytheuseor
relianceonmilitaryforcealone.
John:LetmepickuponthatfirstpointthatRickmadeinhispresentation,andaskthis
questiontotheteamofTomandJulie.WhenyoutakethepositionthatAmericashould
betheworld'spoliceman,don'tyoufalldownaslipperyslope?Wheredoyoudrawthe
lineonwhichsituationscallforUSinvolvement?
Tom:Idon'tthinkthat'saverydifficultchallengewhatsoever.TheUnitedStatesdoes
thinkofitselfasanexceptionalnation.Itiswhatmakesusanation.
Ourpoliticalprinciplesarethegluethatbindsusdomestically,anditshouldnotbea
surprisethattherearethingsthatmattertouswhenventureabroad.Theargumentthat
AmericashouldnotbeAmericaisnotaveryconvincingone,plus,youjusthavetolook
attherecordofhistory.
Itdoesn'tabsolveusfromthepracticeofstatecraftandstrategy.Infact,we'vebeen
rathergoodatit.Weblundersometimes,wemakemistakes,buthistorically,speaking
ourrecordasanationthatemploysthetoolsofstatecraft,thetoolsofpower,bethey
diplomatic,military,economic,orinformational,orotherwise,isprettydarned
impressive.
Ithinktheburdenofproofactuallyfallsontheothersidetoshowinthegrander
historicalframeworkofthingswhatexactlyhavewebeendoingwrong.
Thatisalwaysthecomplaintofrealistsregardlessofwhichpartyisinpower,that
Americaisoverstretchedandtooideologicallymotivated.Howdotheyexplainour
success?
John:JuliecaretoaddanythingtowhatTomhassaid?

p.8

Julie:No,IthinkTomdidafinejob.
Rick:Iwouldliketojumpinhere,becauseIdisagreewiththisideathatwe'vebeen
sincetheendofWorldWarIIoverwhelminglysuccessful.Ithinkyoucandrawaline,
thisisaroughline,butbetweentheendofWorldWarIIandtheendoftheColdWar,
andlet'sgoalittlefurther,say,theendof...
Tom:About85percentofthetime.
Rick:No,endoftheGulfWar,we'retalkingabout1945to1991.IthinkUSforeign
policywaslargelysuccessful.Itwasaprudentforeignpolicy,itwasbyandlarge,letme
finish,arealisticforeignpolicy.Inpart,theveryfactthattherewastheColdWar,andwe
facedanexistentialthreatposedbytheSovietUnionwasaconstrainingfactor.
Iwouldarguethatsincethemid1990s,andparticularly,inanerawhereconflictis
increasinglynotinterstate,butintrastate,andtheopportunitiesforinterventiontendtobe
incivilwarsorsectarianconflicts,USforeignpolicyhasbeenlargelyunsuccessful.
Idon'tthinkIraqwasasuccess,Idon'tAfghanistanwasasuccess,Idon'tthinkLibyaisa
success,Ithinkarguably,wehave15yearsormoreofbyandlarge,Iwouldsuggest,
failure.
Tom:[mumbles]Ideologicalconflict.
John:Elizabeth?
Elizabeth:Ifallalittlebitinbetween.Ithinkthatishasbeen,toanimportantextent,
extraordinarilysuccessful.
Warhasdeclinedineverydecadebetweenstates,betweenstates,since1947.Every
singledecadeoftheTrumanDoctrine.Essentially,weliveintheTrumanDoctrine,allof
us.BeforetheTrumanDoctrinewastheWashingtonDoctrine,Washington'sgreatrule.
Since1947,there'sbeenatremendoussuccess,butit'salsotrueandIagreewithmyteam
memberhereiswherewe'veslippedinthissensethatwethereforehavetobeinthisrole
forever.Therecomesamoment,there'satimeforthings,andatimetoswitchoutanddo
somethingdifferent.
Ithinkit'sclearfromthelast15yearsandthedifficultieswe'veseenthatnow'sthetime
toreallyrethinkthings.
Julie:IthinkwehavetohavethisdebateinsidetheUnitedStates,anddebateleft,right,
whateveritis,thinkabouttherightrolefortheUnitedStatesgoingforward.Iwilladmit
thatthisisaverydifferentera,adifferentsetofchallengesthanwefacedeveninthe
post9/11coupleofyears,decadeafterthat.
ButIthinkwealsohavetohaveaconversationwithourpartnersandalliesaroundthe

p.9

world,andwehavetoadmittoourselvesrightnow,andwehavetorespondtooneway
oranother,thedemandsignalthat'scomingfromEurope,fromAsia,fromtheMiddle
East,fromvirtuallyeverycorneroftheworldrightnow,lotsofustravelonaregular
basis.
Ithinkwe'reallhearingthesamestory,andthatis,"Yes,wecannitpickwithUSpolicy
anddisagreewithyouhereandthere,andmaybeweweren'tallinfavoroftheIraqwar,
butwewantUSengagement,wewantUSleadership,wewantyouinourneighborhood,
wewanttobuildmorepartnershipsandrelationshipwithyou."Itdoesn'thavetoallbea
miltomilrelationship.Folkswantdiplomaticengagement.
Thedemandsignalrightnow,whilewe'rehavingthisdebate,isoffthecharts.Weneed
moreoftheUnitedStates,anditdoesn'tmatterifyou'reinJordan,oryou'reinNorway,
orifyou'reinthePhilippines,you'regoingtogetmoreorlessthesamemessage.
Whetherwelikeitornot,andwecansithereandargueaboutwhetherornotweshould
beforwardleaning,andfordeepengagement,butthereissomeexpectationouttherethat
theUSwillandcanleadunlikeanyother.
John:Letmepickuponthatpointforournextquestiontotheotherteam.Often,
proponentsmightargueifnottheUSthenwho?Whoshouldlead?Theanswer
sometimesistheUnitedNations.
Myquestionis,doyoubelievethattheUnitedNationshasbeenaneffectivepoliceman
oftheworld?
Rick:Icertainlydon'tbelieveit.
[laughter]
Rick:Notforaminute.I'marealist.IthinktheUnitedNationsembodiesalltheworst
sortofcomponentsofnottheUnitedStatesasapoliceman,buttheUnitedStatesasa
socialworker.
TheUNisnottheappropriateplaceforleadership.ButwhatIthinkweareseeingisthe
emergence,andthat'sonethingifyou'regoingtousethispolicemananalogyyou'vegot
totakeintoaccount,indomesticpoliticsthepolicenormallyhaveamonopolyand
sanctioneduseofforce.
Butthat'snottrueinternationally.Weseeothercountriesactingasapolicemanwhen
theyfeeltheirinterestsareatstake.Often,theyfeeltheirinterestsincertainsituationsare
greaterthanours,andthebestexampleofthatisUkraine.
Thefactofthematteris,ifyouthinkaboutit,theRussiansbelievetheyhaveamuch
strongerinterestinUkrainethantheUnitedStatesortheEU.That'swhyVladimirPutin
ispreparedtotaketheriskshehasandactuallyputhispeopleintothefield.

p.10

AsmuchaswewanttopromoteindependenceandanopensysteminUkraine,wearenot
goingtoputforcesintothefieldinUkraine.Idon'tknowasingleRepublicancandidate
that'scallingforthedeploymentofgroundforcesinUkraine.
Wehaven'tevenbeenwillingtoarmtheUkrainians,anddespitethecallsofsome
membersofCongress,includingtheonewhothisinstituteisnamedafter.
Butthepointofthematteris,andthat'strueinChina,too,andwe'regoingtocomeup
againstthatproblem,andthatinmyviewisgoingtobeamuchmoreseriousproblem.
ButthereareareasnearChinawheretheChinesearegoingtoseetheirinterestsaslarger
thanours.We'regoingtobelivinginaworldwhetherwelikeitornot,withother
policemen.
Thatdoesn'tmeanwehavetobackoff,orthatweshouldpractice"appeasement,"butat
times,we'regoingtohavetorelymoreondiplomacyandlessonpowerprojection.
Elizabeth:Iwouldsay,theUnitedNationshasbeenanoverwhelmingsuccessatwhatit
is,whichistosayanorganizationkindofakintotheArticlesofConfederationofthe
UnitedStates.
Averyweakorganizationthatbringstogether,however,andcreatesaforumwhichhas
neverexistedpreviouslyinhumanhistoryandallowspeopleandallowsallcountriesto
comeandberepresented.It'sanincrediblyimportantorganization,itisalsoaveryyoung
organization.
Ifyoulookatnationstates,ifyoulookatinternationalorganizations,it'sakid,basically.
I'mnotsurprisedthatithasnotliveduptoallthemanyexpectationspeoplehadforit.
Weliveinaworldwheresovereignstatesarestillthebigplayers.International
organizationsareveryimportant.Ithinkweshouldtreasurethem,buildthem,support
them,andalso,understandthattheydon'tsimplyhaveastructurethatallowsthemtobe
thepoliceman.
WhichiswhytheUnitedStatesbecametheworld'spoliceman,lackingthisstructurein
internationallife.It'sarolethatwe'veassumed,butIthinkweneedtounderstandthatit
isarole,it'snotus,whoweare.Inthisrespect,Ithinkthatmycolleague,thatRickhere,
AmbassadorRickwe'retocallhim[laughs],AmbassadorRickisquiteright.
Thereareothersovereignnationstateswhoseinterestsaregreaterthanoursincertain
regions,andtheUnitedStateshasnonaturalgeopoliticalenemies,onlytheoneswe
make.Wehappentoliveinagreatneighborhood,andwehavetorecognizethatother
peopleliveinverydifferentkindsofneighborhoods.
John:Tom?
Tom:Julieyouwanttogofirst?

p.11

John:Gorightahead.
Julie:I'llgoafteryou.
Tom:Ilistentotheotherside,andIjustdon'tseetheAmericathatIsee.These
argumentsweremadeacenturyago,beforetheUnitedStatesgotinvolvedinEuropean
balanceofpowerpolitics,orEastAsianbalanceofpowerpolitics.
Theideathatourpastbehaviorisnotsomehowaconsistentemanationofwhoweare,
andwhoweaspiretobeasanation,strikesmeasveryodd.
Yes,it'sachoice,ofcourse,it'sachoice,butit'sachoicethatwemadetheconsequence
isyouhavemostlyagreedwiththepossibleexceptionofthelast15yearshavebeen
relativelysuccessful.
Youjustoffera,"Well,wehavetochange."It'snotclearthatwehavetochange.We
havethemeanstosustainthesystemthatexistsnow,everybodyadmitsthatalltheallies
worthhavingarealreadyonourside,allofthewealthyindustrialnations.
WehavepacifiedpeopleliketheJapaneseandtheGermans,wewouldn'twanttoturn
thatbackover.InaworldwheretheChinese,wherethelocalpolicemaninEastAsia,or
theRussianswerethelocalpolicemaninEastEuropewouldbeareallydifferentworld.
Ithinkthatthere'sapoliticalscienceargumentaboutwhetherasinglepowersystemis
morestableorabalanceofpowersystemismorestable.
Wheretherearemanypolicemenwhothenendupoftenincompetitionwithoneanother.
That'sthehistoryofmodernEuropeforthelast500years.Again,youhavetooffermea
reasonwhyIwanttogiveupasystemthatseemstobeonbalanceworkingratherwell.
Rick:Letmeaskyouaquestion.Youseemtobemakingthecasehere,youseemtobe
talkingaboutaworldthatnobody,orthatIdon'trecognize.Itseemstobelike1945in
yourview.
DoyouhonestlythinktheUnitedStatescanfunctiontoday,andI'mnottalkingjust
militarily,butpolitically,economically,whatever,culturally,asaglobalhegemon?Is
thatarealisticgoal?
Tom:Astheprincipalpowerintheinternationalsystem,absolutely.Ithinkwestill
functionthatwayevenifwearetryingtogetoutofit.
Rick:Youthinkwecandictatesolutionsto...
Tom:Wedon'tdictate.
Rick:...totheChinese?

p.12

Tom:No,but...
Rick:TotheRussians,totheEU?
Julie:No.
Tom:Helpme,Julie.
[laughter]
Julie:No,obviously,wecan'tdictatepoliticaloutcomesinlotsofplacesaroundthe
world.Look,Iagreetherearelotsofcountriesouttherethatwanttobetheworld's
policeman.ChinaandRussiaaretwogoodexamples,butIthinkit'sourinterestsand
manyothers'interestsnottohavethembethechiefintheprecinct.
WewanttohavetheUnitedStatesinaleadershiprole,wewanttobeabletobedrivinga
lotoftheseinternationalinstitutions,andprovidingthatleadershiproleandensuringthat
theliberalorderthatwespent60,70yearscreatingismaintained,andthatwedon'tgo
forplanB.
There'salotofthingshappeninginthisworldforwhichwearecompletelyunprepared.
ProliferationofUAVs,cyber,energysecurity,allsortsofareaswherewe'regoingto
encounternewchallenges.
Wealreadyare.Iwouldarguethatit'sinourinteresttohavetheUnitedStatessitinthat
leadershiproleasweagainthinkthroughtheglobalnorms,thelaws,therulesofthe
road,internationallaw,wecanworkwithourpartnersandallies.
Butweprovideaveryuniqueroleintheseinstitutions,andifwedon'tweseethingslike
thedevelopmentofAIIB,weseenewinstitutionsbeingdeveloped,andIdon'twantto
saynewinstitutionsareforbidden,butcertainly,it'sinourintereststorelyonthesystem
we'vealreadyinvestedin,andensurethatthatsystemcanrespondtotoday'schallenges
insteadoflettingsomebodyelseliketheChineseortheRussiansdeveloptheirown
system.
John:LetmemoveontoournextquestionifIcould.Letmestickwiththisteamright
here.Ifyoupoliceothercountries,doesn'tthatforceAmerica'sideologyuponthem,and
isthatagoodthing?
IrecallseveralBushadministrationofficials,includingVicePresidentDickCheney,
sayingin2003thattheUSwouldbegreetedasliberatorswhentheIraqinvasionbegan.
Tom:AngloAmericanshavebeensayingthateversincetheyleftEngland400years
ago.We'vebelievedthatwewouldliberatetherunawayslavesandtheindigenoustribes
ofLatinAmericafromtheirSpanishoppressors.
Butthat'sreally,weareseekingtocreatenotjustabalanceofpowerthatfavorsAmerica,

p.13

butwethinkofourselvesasmoralagentsintheworld.Again,thatiswhatourfounding
documentsaid,thatiswhattheTrumanDoctrineenunciated.
Deep,theNSC68isadeeplymoralargumentanditbeginsthere.It'snotsimplyan
argumentaboutpowerperse,butit'saboutjustice.It'sverydifficulttosetthataside.
ThecharacterofinternationallifewouldchangewiththeebbingofAmericanpower,it
wouldbedifferentqualitatively,aswellasquantitatively.Yes,butagain,werethe
Germansnaturallydemocraticpeoplepriorto1945,ortheJapanese?No,theywerenot.
IfyoureadthepropagandaaboutpriortoWorldWarIorWorldWarII,itwaspretty
vicious.However,Ithinkthey'vegotit.Theyseem,theGermansseemquitedifferentto
me,theyseemgenuinelycommittedtotheirdemocraticformsofgovernmentand
likewisetheJapanese.
Howdoweaccountforthespreadofdemocraticgovernmentsacrosstheplanet?That
correlatesverystronglytotheexerciseofAmericanpower.
John:Rick,Elizabeth?
Rick:Ijustabriefwordhere,andthenElizabeth.IhadanIndianscholarmakethecase
tome,andhe'sarealistbytheway,"YouknowtheonlydifferencebetweentheBritish
andtheAmericans,andtherestoftheworld,everycountrygoesandservesitsown
interests.TheonlydifferencewithyouandtheBritishisyouhavetoconvinceyourself
you'redoingitforamoralcause."
[laughter]
Rick:"Buttheresultisthesame."Theproblemwiththatis,andIagreewiththat
argument,bytheway,itendsupinmanycasesmakinguslookingliketerrible
hypocrites.
Theremarkwasmadejustamomentagoaboutallofustravelabroad,etcetera,andthat
isprobablytheprincipalargumentyouhereaboutAmericanforeignpolicy.Youtalkthe
talkbutyoudon'twalkthewalk.
Youtalkabouthowthere'sadesperationforUSleadership,butwehaveaserious
problem,andit'saserious,deepproblemwithwhatisbecomingthemajorpowerin
Europeinsomanydifferentdimensions,whetherit'sonmigration,whetherit'sinthe
economy,younameit,andthat'sGermany,andweareindangerofhavinglostour
credibilityinGermany,especiallywiththeyounggeneration,becausethey'veseenthe
gapbetweenwhatweadvocateasourgreatmoralgoalsandouractualbehavior.
Elizabeth:GeorgeWashington'sperhapsmostshiningmomentwasthetimewhenhe
resignedhismilitarycommissionattheendoftheAmericanRevolutionaryWar,anddid
notestablishessentiallyamilitaryascendancy.

p.14

Peoplearoundtheworldwereshockedthatthismilitarymanshouldsay,"Nowthe
civilianstakeover."OK,hegotelectedpresident,buttheydidn'tknowthat.Ithinkthat
wetendtothinkit'sus,orit'stheChineseandtheRussians.
That'sreallynot,that'snotreallywhat'sonthetable.Yes,thosearebigcountries,those
areimportantcountries,althoughRussia'seconomyissmallerthanItaly's,justtoputthat
outthere.
TheUnitedStatestodayspendsmoreondefense,worlddefense,thanallothercountries
combinedand85percentofwhatwespendonthedefenseofshoresotherthanourown,
andIagreethatthathashadveryprofoundlygoodeffects.Butthatdoesn'tmeanthat
mustgoon.
Asyousaid,byJove,theGermanshavegotitnow.Whathasreallyhappenedoverthe
last400yearshasbeenagradualmovementacrosstheglobetowardsmoreopen
economicsystems,moreopenpoliticalsystems,freedomofinformation,transparency,
notbecausetheUnitedStateshasstoodtherewithaguntoeverybody'shead,makingthis
happenorsustainingit.Becauseitactuallyturnsouttohavebeenabetterwayforpeople
tosurviveandprosper.
JapanandGermanydon'tactasdemocraciestodayonlybecausetheUSwillcomeback
in,notatall.IftheUS,I'mfromCalifornia,wereallycouldfallofftheedgeofthe
country.TheUnitedStatescouldbecomelikeAtlantisandsink,thisdoesnotmeanthat
capitalistsystems,anddemocraticsystemswouldsuddenlydisappear.
Goodleadersdevelopnewleaders,andtheyacknowledgeotherpeople'sroles,andthey
alsocultivatetheirfriends,andinsistthatno,wearenotgoingtobeprovidingfouranda
halfpercentofourgrossdomesticproducttowardsdefense,whenallourpartnersin
NATOdotwopercentorless,oronepercent.
That'snotthedeal,andweallowpeopletocontinueyearafteryear,decadeafterdecade,
toallowyoutodomore,whiletheydoless,that'scallcodependency,andthat'snota
goodprospectforthissystemthatwealllove.
Julie:Butwe'retried,justtaketheexampleofEuropeanddefensespending.We'vetried
fordecadestogettheseguystospendmore.
WehavereducedourforcepostureinEurope,mostnotably,ormostrecentlyin2012,we
tookthetwoBCTsoutofEurope,andtherewassomehopethatthatwouldsendshivers
downthespinesofmilitaryleadersacrossEurope,particularly,inGermanyandItaly,
wherethoseforceswerebased,andtheywouldmakemoreinvestments,better
investments,anyinvestmentsatall,andwe'refindingthatnothing'sworking.Ifrequently
tellthe...
Rick:I'lltellyouwhat'sworking,Putinisworking.Putinisworking.Theymaynot
listentousbadgerthemaboutspendingmorefordefense,butwhentheylookaroundat

p.15

what'shappeningintheirneighborhood,they'redoingtherationalthing.
Julie:Someofthemaremakingpledgesthatwillintheoryresultinahigherdefense
spendingthree,four,fiveyearsfromnow.Let'swaitandsee.Someofthemarenot,we
justhadahugedebatewithourfriends,holdon,inLondon...
Rick:Butweknowwhattheirinterestsarebetterthantheydo?
Julie:WehadahugedebatewithourfriendsinLondonaboutaftertheoilsummit,
whetherornottheywouldinvesttwopercentoftheirGDPindefense.Webarelydodged
abulletonthatone.
Ithinkthere'sthismythologythattheUSpullseverybodybackandthatA,that'sinour
interestswhichIdon'tthinkitis,andB,itautomaticallythenspursotherstospendand
takecareoftheirownsecurity.
Rick:Idon'tsupportthatatall.
Julie:Whichisnotthecase.
Rick:Idon'tsupportthatatall.IfullysupportourpresenceinEurope,I'dliketo
increaseit.ButIdon'tthatwecandefinehowtheydefinetheirownsecurityneeds.We
cantellthemwhatwethinktheyshoulddo,butthey'regoingtoendupdoingwhatthey
wanttodo.
Tom:Butit'sinourinterests.There'sbeennothingmoreessentialtothecreationofthe
UnitedStatesofAmericathanthebalanceofpowerinEurope.
Rick:Iagreewiththat.
Tom:You'reputtingbackanother10,000or20,000soldiersinanattempttorestorethe
peaceofEurope,whicheverybodythoughtwaseternaluntilfiveminutesago,isnotabig
ask.
It'sinourinterest,secondly,they'reprovidingthebattlefield.That'saburdenthatgoes
waybeyonddollarsandcents.IhatetosaynicethingsabouttheweaselyEuropeans,but
thefactthatthe...
Rick:Youthinkthethreat...
Tom:...thecontestexistsoverthereisabigcontributionto...
Rick:ButyouthinkthethreatinEuropeareRussiantanksinthecentralplainsof
Germanyagain?We'vegottoputanarmoreddivisioninthere?
Tom:No,it'slittlegreenmeninCrimea,Iunderstandthatthenatureoftheconflictis
different.

p.16

Rick:Anotherdivisionisn'tgoingtohelpthatproblem.
Elizabeth:Butthenatureoftheconflictisreallycritical,forthereasonthatweoverlook
theselonghistoricalprocesses.
WhenafterSpain,etcetera,withdrewfromthenewworld,therewassomethinglikeI
think23battlesandwarsbetweentheAmericanstates.Whennationstatesarefirst
formed,thereisalotofelbowingandjostlingaboutwhereexactlythatborderisgoingto
lay.
Forustoworryeachtimethatwe'vegottomakesurethatourdefinitionisgoingto
pertainIthinkisproblematic,andthat'swhyIdothinkthatyouhavetoallowsome
degreeofregionalresponsibility.Nottosaywe'renotinvolved,ofcourse,we'redeeply
engagedintheworld.ButIfeelyourpain[laughs],thiswomanhasbeenwithNATO,I
feelherpain.
Butontheotherhand,Ihonestlythinkthatthereisnoothersolutionotherthansaying,"I
guessyou'regoingtolivewiththeconsequencesofthat.Iguessyou'regoingtolivewith
thefactthatyouwantonlytospendonepercent."
Julie:CanIjustsayonelastthingonthis?
John:Sure,onelastthing.
Julie:Itisinourinteresttoseethembuildcapacity.Ifthere'sadoctrineforthis
administration,thatcouldbeoneofthem.HeavyfocusonBPCs.
We'rebuildingallthispartnershipcapacity,oftentimes,thebestwaytobuildpartnership
capacityisbybeingpresent,andhavingtheforcesthere,developingthejointtraining,
exercisingtogether,thosethingsmatterandcanspurcapabilitiesattheendoftheday.I
thinkpullingupstakesandsaying,"Goodlucktoallofyou."
Firstofall,isnotinourinterests.Buttotheextentthatyouwanttoseethemactually
developsomething,you'vegottobethere,oftenbeingpresent.Whenweinvestedthe$1
billionafterUkraineinEuropeansecurity,wewerethenabletogoaroundandshakethe
treesandgettheEuropeanstocontributeandfollowsuite,toreassureouralliesinCentral
andEasternEurope.
Ithinkwehavetobeawareofthevaluethatwebringbybeingthereonthegroundwith
them,anditservesourinterestsbecauselaterifacrisisdoeshit,we'vegotallthat
experienceontheinteroperabilityside.
John:ElizabethandRick,howdoyourespondtoproponentswhoarguethatwherethere
ishunger,wemustprovidefood.Wherethereispoverty,wemustprovidefinancial
assistance,andwheretherearepoliticalstruggles,wemustchoosethewinners.Webeing
theUnitedStates.

p.17

Rick:HowdoIrespondtothat?Whatwasyourfirstone,wherethere'shunger,wemust
provide?Look,weallshouldbegoodhumanitarians,Idon'twanttotakefoodoutofthe
mouthsofstarvingchildren.Letmestipulatethatpoint.
[laughter]
Rick:Idothinkthatweprobably,generallyspeaking,weprobablydospendIwould
guess,inmyview,becauseIsupportafuller,morerobust,morediversetoolboxfor
Americanforeignpolicy,Iwouldliketoseemoreaid,notjustmilitaryaid,butaidtoless
developedcountries.
I'mallfullysupportthat.Butyourmainpointis,isthatwehaveto...mymainpointis,
yourquestion,wehavetobeprettythoughtfulaboutintervention.IncontrasttoLisa,I
don'twanttochangethebalanceofpower.
Ifanything,Iwanttostrengthenitinareasovertimethatwe'regoingtoneedtodothat,
andbytheway,Idon'tthinkit'sEurope,Ithinkit'sAsia,thisisapreeminentchallenge
ofthe21stcenturyiswhentheonlyothersuperpowerthat'semergingisChina,we're
goingtohavetoaddressthat.It'snotgoingtobeapurelymilitarysolution,butmilitary
powerisgoingtobeapart.
Idon'tthinkwe'regoingtobeabletomeetthatchallengeifwefindourselvesbogged
downinabunchofstupidinterventionsinunwinnableconflictsinplaceswedon't
understand,there'sstill,Iwouldbet,amajorityofmembersofCongressthatstillcan't
tellyouthedifferencebetweenasShiiteandaSunni,andcan'ttellyouthattheHouthis
areShiites,andthatthey'refightingessentiallyinYemennow,AlQaedawhoareSunni.
Mostpeoplewon'tactuallyremovetheNATOblinderstorecognizethatit'samuchmore
importantpriorityforourNATOallyTurkeytofighttheKurds,becausethey'reworried
aboutthedismembermentoftheirowncountrythantogoafterISIS,inpart,because
ErdoganseeshimselfassomekindofleaderoftheSunniworld.
I'msayingthatstupidinterventionsandtryingtotellpeople,particularly,sectarian
conflictslikeintheMiddleEastwherewehavenothingtoaddoroffer,aregoingto
makeitimpossibleforustodealwiththemoreimportantstrategicchallengesofthe21st
century.IthinktheprincipaloneinmydefinitionismanagingtheriseofaChinesesuper
power.
John:Tom,youwanttojumpinhere?
Tom:Ifhecanbeagainsttakingawaylollipopsfromkids,canIbeagainststupid
interventionsanddumbwars?
Ithinkweshouldhaveamoratoriumonstrawmen,maybe.Look,andIwouldn't
necessarilydisagreethatcertainlyinthegreatpowersense,theriseofChinaisthe
greatestchallengefortheforeseeablefuture.

p.18

Thatdoesnotmeanthatwecan'twalkandchewgumatthesametime.Idon'thavea
particularsolutioninthebackofmypocketforthebalanceofpowerintheMiddleEast.
IfIdid,I'dbesomeplaceelse.
[laughter]
Tom:ButIdoknowthatthebalanceofpowerintheMiddleEastisfundamentally
importanttotheinternationalsystem,andtotheUnitedStates,andtotheinternational
economy,andtoanyhopesforhavingadecentinternationalsystem.
Rick:Youbelieveweshouldbedirectparticipantsinthatbalance?
Tom:Absolutely.Weshouldindirectparticipants,weshouldbeoffshorebalancers.
Rick:Wait.Offshorebalancer,that'sdifferent,andIcansupportanoffshorebalancing
strategy.
[laughter]
Tom:Yeah,butthatdoesn'tanswerthemail.Theproblemisthatoffshorebalancing
shortofiswhatgotusinthismessinthefirstplace,lookingforlongtermlocalpartners
intheMiddleEasthasbeenunrewarding.TheShahfell,Saddamwasaprettybigbum,
NourialMalikiwasabiggerbum.
Rick:I'mgoingtouseyourargument,thatthatpolicywasprettysuccessfulforapretty
longtime.
Tom:Whichpolicy?
Rick:Beinganoffshorebalancer.WorkingwiththeIranians,workingwiththeSaudis.
Tom:TheIraniansgotridoftheShah,wecouldn'toffshorebalanceourwayinto
keepingtheShahinpower.Hewasabadguy,too,that'sthekindofleaderthatrealists
tendtogofor,anditalwaysendsupintears.
Rick:You'vegotachoiceusuallyintheMiddleEastbetweenanunattractiveleaderlike
theShah,andtotalanarchyandchaos.
Tom:Weseemtohavethelatternow.
Rick:Ihaven'tseenthissortofflowerofdemocracygrowinanyofthesecountries.
John:Let'stakeitbeyondthisideaofoffshore...
Julie:CanIadd?
John:...injustamoment,takingitoffshorethatwe'vebeentalkingaboutforthelastfive

p.19

minutes,andtalkaboutviolentinterference,orviolentintervention.
Opponentsoftenargue,TomandJulie,thatonlygiveswaytomoreviolence,theypoint
totheaftermath,forinstance,ofthewarinIraq,inwhichglobalterrorismshotuphigher
thaneverbefore.What'syourresponsetothat?
Julie:WecouldtakeLibyaandtalkabouttheactualmilitaryoperationitself,whichI
thinkifyoujusttakeinavacuum,youcansaywasasuccess.
DoIthinkthatwaswise,knowingwehadnoafteractionplan,nopostconflict
reconstruction,nobodytocomeinafterNATOdecidedtocallitaday?No,thatwas
absolutelyunwise,andahugemistake,andwe'resufferingtheconsequencesrightnow,
becauseofthat.
Toagreewithourothercolleaguesoverhere,youabsolutelydoneedthefullspectrumof
instrumentsandtools.I'mnotheretotellyouthatweshouldbeinterveningaroundthe
worldandputtingourideologyatthetipofaspear,andgoingin,no.It'stotheextentthat
we'regoingtogetengagedmilitarily,wedohavetomaketheinvestmentsinotherparts
ofourtoolkit.
Whatwe'reparticularlybadatrightnow,isfiguringoutwhatyoudowhenthesmoke
clears.We'relivingthat,literallyrightnow,inLibya,caseinpoint.
John:Rick?
Elizabeth:CanIaskifI...Ithinkit'smyturnhere,Rick.
Rick:It'sherturn.
[laughter]
Rick:No,Iwasn'taskingforthefloor,I'mgivingittoyou.
Elizabeth:Thankyou,perfectgentleman.Iwasgoingtosay,youcan'treallyhaveafor
andcondebatehere,becauseit'ssocomplex.Youcancareabouttherestoftheworld
andcarevery,verydeeply.
Thequestion,aswealldo,everyoneinthisroom.Thequestionbecomeshowdoyoudo
iteffectively.Inthecaseofhumanitarianaid,caringaboutpeoplearehungry,itturnsout
thatifyoujustgrowfoodinIowaandgiveittothem,theirownfarmerscan'tcompete
withthat,andtheystopgrowingfood.
Youdon'twanttodothat,youwanttocare,butyouwanttohaveaPeaceCorps,or
somethingwhichisnottryingtosupplantindividualandlocalinitiatives.Youcancare,
butyouhavetocareintherightway.
Militaryinterventionisanespeciallydiceywayofcaring.Asitturnsout,Ilovethis

p.20

historicalanalogyofthecivilwar,theAmericanCivilWar,andtheSyrianCivilWar,
whichhappenedthesameyear,in1860,1861,wheretherewasacivilwarinbothplaces.
TheEuropeanpowersdecided,"Horrors!WemustinterveneinSyria."10,000people
havedied,andtheystoppedthewar.
Theydecided,inthecaseoftheAmericanCivilWar,thatitwasjustwaytoodangerous.
Theydidnotintervene,and700,000peopledied.Butwehaven'thadacivilwarsince,
andSyriaremainsincivilwar.
Ithinkthere'sthisgreatproblemthatRickhassuggested,whichisthatwhenwarsare
intrastate,notinterstate,it'sadifferentballgame.Idon'tthinkwe'vefoughtcarefully
enough.
Rick:Especiallyreligious.
Elizabeth:Especiallyreligious.There'sthewarsofthereformationwerehorrible.For
150years,therewerethewarsoftheReformation.
TheMiddleEasthasneverhadthatprocessofcreatingaPeaceofWestphaliathatwas
theparalleltoendingthewarsoftheReformation.Historytakesalongtime,anditis
dirty,anditisbloody.
Youjustcan'tcontrolallofthis.Youhavetobeverycarefulaboutthekindof
intervention,thekindofleadershipyouassertandthatyoucultivateinothers,sotheycan
takesomeoftheheatthatwillcome.
John:Realquickly...
Tom:YouhavetoaskyourselfwhywastheAmericanCivilWaranydifferentoutcome
thantheSyrianCivilWarofthe1860s.Itwasinpart,becausewhatemergedfromthat,
andittookanother100plusyearsforReconstructionoftheSouthtofullytakeroot.
ItwasbecauseofthenatureofthegovernmentthatsucceededtheConfederacywas
qualitativelydifferent.Itprovidedaframeworkforpeopletolearnhowtoresolvetheir
differenceswithoutgoingtowar,anditgavemorepeopleachancetoparticipatein
governingthemselves.
Sure,ittakesalongtime.It'sbloody.It'salso,ifyou'regoingtosaymankindisafallen
creature,youhavetoacceptthatthere'sareasonthatmilitarypoweristheultimatetool
ofkingsandstatecraft,becauseitissomethingtobehandledwithextremecareand
prudence,unquestionably.Butitisthetoolthatmakesthegreatestdifference.
John:Iwanttogiveanopportunityforouraudiencetoaskquestionsofourpanelists.If
youhaveaquestion,pleaseraiseyourhand.Ibelievetherearemicrophonesonboth
sidesofthisauditorium.

p.21

Whenyouarecalledupon,pleaseidentifyyourself,andaddressyourquestiontooneof
theteamsthatisupheredebatingthesepoints.
Thisgentlemanrighthere,intheback.
AlexTiersky:Thankyou.MynameisAlexTierskyandIthinkratherthanchallenging
thepanelistsonsomethingspecific,I'dliketoofferthemsomeredmeattotossarounda
littlemore.
[laughter]
Alex:Ithinkfolksherewouldagreewithmethatenergyisaninterestthathasledto
someofwhathasbeencalledpolicinginUSforeignpolicy,traditionally.Ofcourse,in
recentyears,we'veseentheshaleenergyrevolutionthathasdramaticallychangedthe
scalesofthatparticularequation.
Iimaginethatonesideofthisdebatemightsay,"Thisisanewtoolinouttoolkitto
influenceandprotectourinterestsabroad,perhapstowardsthepolicingargument."
Theothersidemightsay,"Infact,thisdiminishestheinterestthatwehaveonenergy
questionsinpartsoftheworldandwecanmoresafelydisengage."AmIrightin
potentiallycharacterizingthetwosidesofthatquestion?Thanks.
John:Rick,Elizabeth.Whydon'tyoutakethatfirst?
Rick:I'mgoingtomakethemaybecontroversialargumentas,formeatleast,itdoesn't
makeabigdifference.Iknowthearguments,"Gee,youknow,we'renowtheworld's
largestoilproducer,we'llsoonbethebiggestgasproducer."We'restilldependenton
foreignenergyandhydrocarbons.
Itdoesn'ttomesuggestthat,"Gee,thisisapowerfulreasonforustoreconfigureour
militarypostureabroadandnecessarilywithdrawthoseforces."
Theglobalenergymarketisglobalandifweneedthoseresourcesless,othercountries
willneedthem.Manyofthoseothercountriesareimportantalliesandoilisfungible,it
willenduplosinganimportantsourceofenergy.
SaudiArabia,forinstance,woulddriveupenergypricesandthatwouldhavea
deleteriousimpactonoureconomyprobably,Idon'tthinkitresultsinthemajornew
policyopportunitiesthatsomepeoplesuggest.Icouldbewrong,I'mnotanenergy
specialist,butIdon'tseeitasagamechanger.
Elizabeth:Iwouldhavetosay,Iagreewiththat.TheUnitedStatesintheearly20th
centurywasamajoroilexporter.Idon'tthinkthatreallychangedourforeignpolicyor
changedourpositionintheworld.It'simportant,obviously,it'sagoodthing.
Ontheotherhand,it'saterriblethingbecauseofourdependenceonhydrocarbonsand

p.22

globalwarming.That'sprobablyamoreimportantinternationalissue,howdoweasa
planetmorecarefullyuseourresources?That'sthebigissue,Ithink.
John:Julie.
Julie:Yeah,Ithinkit'sgoodnews/badnews.Obviously,it'sgoingtogiveusleveragein
anumberofrelationshipswehavewithsuppliers.Butit'sbadnewsinthesensethatthe
wholegeopoliticsofenergy,it'screatingawholearrayofnewrelationshipsthatcould
posetobechallengingforusdowntheroad.It'sinteresting.
Idon'tthinkthere'smuchrightnowtotheRussia/ChinarelationshipthatPutinistryingto
drive,butwhatwillthatlooklikein15or20years?Wedon'tknow.
Ithinktrackingthatwillbeoneofthekeychallengesfornotonlythenext
administration,butprobablythenextthreeorfourafterit.Thenintermsofglobal
posture,Iknowtherearesomesaying,"Well,wedon'thavetoworryaboutthePersian
Gulfanymoreandbringthetroopshome."
Again,Iguesstheonewordwehaven'treallyinjectedintothissofaristheword
"deterrence."Ithink,yes,America'srelationshipswithmanyofthesecountriesinthe
PersianGulfarechangingbecauseofourindependence.Butatthesametime,wehaveto
thinkaboutthewidervalueofhavingtroopsinthesemultipleplacesaroundtheworld.
Ithinknotgettingtothepointwherewe'reforcedtointervene,butusingsomeofthis
postureasdeterrenceisabsolutelycriticalinsendingtherightsignalstoourwouldbe
adversaries.
Tom:Realquickly,I'dsay,thebiggesteffectislikelytobetheonethatJuliejust
described.ItwillreinforcethefrustrationthattheAmericanpoliticalclassandour
politiciansfeelabouttheMiddleEastandfiguringoutwhichonesaretheKurds,which
oneistheQudsforce,andthingslikethat.
Butit'salsothecasesecuringtheinternationalenergylifeline,touseabadphrase,isan
importantelementinAmericanglobalpower.ItbuysuscredibilitywiththeJapaneseand
theKoreans.It'ssomethingtheChinesefear.Theybehavedifferentlybecausetheyare
worriedthattheirenergysuppliesmightbeheldatriskbyus.
John:Anotherquestionfromouraudience.That'sthiswomanrightinthemiddle
wearingagreentypeofsweater.
[laughter]
EleanorRobertsLewis:IhaveaprettyloudvoicesomaybeI'lljustspeak.
John:Themicrophone'scomingyourway.
[backgroundconversation]

p.23

Eleanor:MynameisEleanorRobertsLewis.I'maretiredinternationallawyer.Itmay
bebecauseofthegenerationofwhichI'mapart,butI'vebeensurprisedthatnoneofyou
mentionedtheVietnamWar.Infact,forallfourofyou,thatwarseemstofallintoatime
periodyouregardashighlysuccessful...
[laughter]
Eleanor:...forUSpolicy.I'dliketoaskeachteamtoaddress,firstofall,doyouthink
theVietnamWarwasamatterofsuccessforus?Ifso,why?Ifyouthink,perhaps,it
wasn't,aretherelessonswecouldlearnfromitsfailuretobeasuccess?
John:Whydon'twestartwithTomandJuliefirst?
Tom:ItwasabigdealformewhenIwas18yearsold,that'sforsure.ButIthink,inthe
benefitofhindsight,itturnsouttobestrategicallymuchlessimportantinitsgreater
lastingeffect.
ItwasacatastropheforthepeopleofSoutheastAsia.There'snoquestionaboutthat.It
hadadurableeffectonourdomesticpolitics,thewaywethoughtaboutgoingtowar,and
behavingintheworld.There'snodoubtaboutthat.
Butitdidn'thavethedominoeffectoranythinglikethat.Itdidn'treallyalterthearcof
theColdWar,ifyouwill,inwaysthatsomepeoplemighthave,advocatesofthewar,
thoughtthatitwouldorpeoplewhoopposedthewarmayhavethought.
Withthebenefitofacoupleofgenerationsofdistanceandasamatterofinternational
powerandstrategy,Ithinkitislessimportantthancertainlyothercontemporaneous
events.
John:Rick,doyouwanttojumpinhere?
Rick:Yeah,Ihaveacoupleofrandomobservations.Firstofall,ofcourse,hedidn'tsay
this,butitwasaclearmilitarydefeatfortheUnitedStates.Welostthatwar.Itwasan
exampleofthisnothavingaclearminded,selectiveapproachwhereweunderstoodthe
consequencesofwherethiswasgoingandwhatweweretryingtodothere.
IwasinterestedduringthewholeIraqwar,Afghanscenariowherewereinvented
counterinsurgency.Wereallydidreinventit,becauseitwasfirstdevelopedforVietnam.
ItfailedthereandthenfailedagainintheMiddleEast.Icouldtalkforsometimeabout
whyitfailed.
It'sfunny.Wedidn'tlearn,atleast,theUSmilitarydidn'tlearnthelessonsfromVietnam.
Themoreinterestingthing,anditshowsyoualittlebitabouttheunintended
consequences.You'regoingtothinkthisisastrangeargumentcomingfrommegiventhe
sideI'mdebatingtonight.
Vietnamdidhaveone,Ithink,arguablypositiveimpact.Thatwasduringthecourseof

p.24

thewar,IthinkweforgetthattherewasagreatconcerninallofSoutheastAsiaabout
communistsubversion.Itwasn'tjustNorthVietnam.Therewereconcernsinthe
Philippines,inThailand,inMalaysia.
TheimpactofVietnamwastoprovideakindofAmericansecurityumbrellaoverthat
region.Whatwasinteresting,whenyoutalkaboutnoimpactforthelongterm...it's
interesting.
ThegreatsurgeinSoutheastAsianeconomies,andentrepreneurialism,andthecreation
ofASEAN,andthesuccessofallofthatmay,insomepart,beduetothefactthatthere
wasthisAmericanpresenceintheregion.
Itgavesomepeoplesomebreathingspaceandsomeopportunitiestobuildthose.Clearly,
WaltRossdownthereneverputthatinamemotoPresidentJohnson.
It,again,showsyouhowtherearealwaystheseunintendedconsequencesandthey'renot
alwaysnecessarilybad.Iwouldarguethey'relargelybad,butitcomestousing...
WhileIdon'tdisagreewithyouonthepointaboutuseofmilitarypower,theinstrument
ofitscentrality,wehavetounderstandthatit'salsoprobablythemostuncertaintool.It's
goingtohaveconsequencesthatarehighlyunpredictableindifferentways.
Idon'tthinkwe,inthelast15yearsorso...IthinkweunderstoodthatafterVietnamand
wewere...eveninmyyearsintheReaganadministrationandintotheBush
administration,therewascertainlyagreaterprudenceinAmericanpolicymakingand
decisionsaboutusingmilitarypowerthantherehavebeeninthelast15years.
Ithink,whetherpeopleadmititornot,itwasbecauseoftheVietnamshadow.
John:Let'sgobackouttoout...
Elizabeth:CanIjustsay,Ithink,onVietnam,it'simportanttosaythatwhenyouhave
policingyouhavepolicebrutality,becauseit'saverydifficultjob,beingthepolice
officer.Weallknowinthisaudiencethatpolicebrutalityisapartofpolicing.
It'sapartwetryveryhardtorootout.Wetrytoownuptobutthefactisinthecaseof
VietnamtheUnitedStatesmadeabigmistake.
John:Let'sgobackouttoouraudience.Thisgentlemanrighthereintheredshirtinthe
middle.
[pause]
IsaacMakos:MynameisIsaacMakos.Ihaveaquestionfortheaffirmativeteam.
Withtheincreasingcostofmodernwarfare,theamountofmoneythatevenonemissile
coststobefired,cantheUSaffordtomaintainthesortofmilitaryinvolvementand

p.25

additionallythecostof,intermsoftreasureandintermsofpublicsupport...?
CantheUScontinuetopaythebillsthatworldpolicingracksup?Thankyou.
Julie:Iguessitdependsonwhattypeofdefinitionyouwanttorelyonforpolicing.If
youaregoingtobeproposingthattheUS,forexamplerightnow,shouldbesending
200,000troopsintoIraqandSyriatofightISIS,asLindseyGrahamwouldargue,there
arerealcostimplicationsofthat.
Obviously,wehavetobecleareyedandrealisticabout,firstandforemost,theresource
constraintsthatyouhighlighted,butalso,thelimitsofUSpower.Wehavelearnedalot
oflessons.
Thatsaid,Ithinkwedohavetheluxuryofhavingalargedefensebudget.Ithinkitis
supportable.It'snotnecessarilyneedstobeonascaleofwhatwe'vewitnessedoverthe
betterpartofthelasttwoorthreedecades,orjustthelastcoupleofyears,forthatmatter,
intheshadowofthewaronterror.
Ithinkwedohavetheabilitytosustainamilitarythatcancontinuetoprojectpower.
Again,withaheavieremphasisonusingthemilitaryandtheposturewehaveasa
deterrentandtheabilitytouseittobuildrelationshipsandbuildthatpartnershipcapacity.
Ithinktherearewisewaysandsmartwaystoinvest.Therearewaystoabusethemilitary
andthespendingthatweinvest.
Icertainlythinkthatthestateoftheeconomyrightnow,givenourplaceintheworld...I
thinkwe'renotinapositionwherewehavetomatchourEuropeanalliesandbringit
downtoonepercentofGDP.Wedohavethatluxury.
Tom:Asamatterofeconomicreality,wecouldspendtwiceorthreetimesandhave,for
alongtime...thathistoricalaveragethroughtheColdWarisaboutsixorsevenpercentof
GDPspentondefense.We'renowdowntofourandfalling.We'renotquiteatEuropean
levelsofdefensespending.
Butasaburdenonoureconomy,asanopportunitycosttoAmericansociety,onepercent
ofAmericanswhohaveeverservedarenowservinginuniformorfoughtinpost9/11
wars.Asasociety,asaneconomy,wecansustainthislevelofmilitaryeffort
indefinitely.
Thecostofeachroundmayhaveincreasedbuttheeffectivenessalsodid.InWorldWar
II,ittookhundredsofsortiesandthousandsofbombstotrytodestroyabridge.Now,we
canshootoneTomahawkorsatelliteguidedbombatanytargetthatweselect.
It'samoreeffectiveuseofresources.Wegetmorebangforthebuck,ifyouwill.Wecan
continuetodothisaslongaswefeltlike.
John:Wouldtheotherteamcaretoweighinonthatparticularquestion?

p.26

Rick:Ihavetojustsay,"Bangforthebuck?"Ican'tthinkofanylargescale
organizationintheUnitedStatesthatspendsmoneylesseffectivelythantheDepartment
ofDefense.Itisthemostwastefulbureaucratic,inefficientorganizationthatGodhas
everconceived.IknowI'mbeginningtosoundlikeDonaldTrump,butit's...
[laughter]
Rick:...it'strue.We'vebecome,theDepartmentofDefense,asmanypeoplehavenoted
isbecomingahealthcareprogramwithguns.Theamountofmoneythatistakenupwith
allthese...
Tom:TheUnitedStatesisbecomingahospital,andtheamountofhealthcare.
Rick:Yes,andthemostinefficienthospital...
Tom:Andtheamountofhealthcare.Butcomeon,Rick.
Rick:...istheDepartmentofDefense.NowhatI'msayingisthat...
Tom:TheDepartmentofEducation,iftheDepartmentofEducationthattaughtmy
kids...
Rick:IftheDepartmentofEducationthesizeofthePentagon.
Tom:...aswellasthemilitary.It'stwice...
Rick:Thepeoplewouldberiotinginthestreets.
Tom:HowmuchdoestheUnitedStatesspendoneducation,asasliceofitsGDP?
Rick:Butthatmoneyisn'tspentbytheDepartmentofEducation.
Tom:Publicschoolsandprivate...
Rick:Butthat'slocal,I'mtalkingabout...
Tom:Weallocateamuchlargersliceofourdollarstoeducatingourchildrenthanwedo
to...
Rick:You'vegotonebureaucracy,it'stheDepartmentofDefense,andI'mjust
suggestingifwe'regoingtospendfourpercentofourGDPonit,weshouldspendit
morewisely.
Itcouldbettermanaged,andDwightEisenhower,whenhewaspresident,hiredTom
Gates,theCEOofGeneralMotorstocomeinbecausehewascostconscious.Ithink
maybeDwightEisenhowerwasthelastpresidentoftheUnitedStateswhocaredabouta
Pentagonthatwasrunefficiently.

p.27

Julie:No,that'snot.
[crosstalk]
Tom:LBJhiredRobertMcNamara...
John:Listen,whydon'tyouwrapupthisparticularquestionwiththepointthatyou'd
liketomake,andthen,wecangotoonelastquestion.
Elizabeth:WhentheTrumanDoctrinestarted,theUSwasthehighestpercapitaincome
intheworld.Today,weare17th.Yes,wecancontinuetodothisaslongasyoulike.
Wearesobig,wecanjustdothisforever.Butit'saquestionofopportunitycost.Ifyou
spendafifthofthefederalbudgetonthemilitary,thatmeansyouhaveafifthofthe
moneymorethatyoucouldbedoingsomethingelsewith.
Youcouldgiveitbacktotaxpayers,youcanspenditoneducation.Iimaginethere'sa
numberofstudentsinthisroom,andifyouwereEuropean,youwouldnotbewalking
outofcollegewithadebt.Thoseareimportantquestion,andit'sabalancingact.Wecan
affordit,isthathowwewanttospendourmoney?
John:Wehavetimeforonemorequestion.Thiswomanonthenearendofthis
particularrow,inthetantop?
JenniferBrown:HimynameisJenniferBrown,I'mateacheratRooseveltStateHigh
School,herewithsomeofmystudentsandcolleague.Myquestionisspecificallyfor
ElizabethCobbs,yousaidthatactingasthecurrentworld'spolicemanisarolethat
Americaiscurrentlyfulfilling,notonethatismandated.
Doyouthinkthatthisisarolethatwillalwaysexist,andifso,whodoyouthinkshould
replacetheUSintheroleshouldwereverttoisolationism?
Elizabeth:Idon'tthinkweshouldreverttoisolationism,andIdon'tthinkthat'sreally
thequestion.ButIthinkwhatwehavetodoiswehavetoestablishsomegoalsandsome
targets,andsay,"Otherallies?Youneedtostandup.Youneedtostartdoingthese
things."
Idon'tknow,theUNdoesnotyethaveastructurewherethereisonecountrydoingit.
Whenaroleisnotcarefullydeveloped,somethingwillfillthevacuum.
Obviously,wedon'thaveaworldumpire,wedon'thaveaworldpolice,andtheUnited
Statescanandhasfulfilledthisfunction.Butyouhavetoestablishagoal,howexactly
wewillgetthere,Idon'tknow.
I'mlikeTomhere,IwishIcouldinventthesolution.Butunlessyouknowthat'swhere
youwanttogo,youwilljuststayininertia,intherutyou'vebeeninforareallylong
time.Weknowthere'ssomepowerfuldownsidestothisparticularrut.

p.28

John:Rick,wouldyoucaretoweighinonthatparticularquestionthatwasposed
essentiallytoyourteam?
Rick:Ijustverybriefly,I'mcertainlynotanisolationist,andIthinkit'snotjusta
questionofsteppingbackfromarole,andasIpointedoutearlier,IthinkIdifferwith
Lisaonthisquestion.Idon'twanttoreshapeourcommitmentsornecessarilyevenour
presenceworldwide.
ButIthinkweshouldbecomemuchmoreselectiveandthoughtfulabouthowwe
intervene,andwhenweintervene,andbetteratunderstandingthatbeyondmilitary
interventiontherearediplomaticandotherinstrumentsavailabletoaddresstheproblems
thatwefaceinEurope,intheMiddleEast,andinEastAsia.
John:Atthispoint,I'dliketogobacktoourpanelists,andifyoumayrecalltheteamof
JulieandTomstartedoffthisdebate,andIwanttogobacktoElizabethandRickBurke
toconcludethedebate.
Iwouldlikeyouinoneminute,andtheclock'srightthereupontheleft,tosumupwhat
roleeachofyoubelievestheUSshouldtakeinforeignaffairsaroundtheworld.
Elizabeth,whydon'tyoustartusoff?
Elizabeth:IthinkthattheUnitedStates,needsto,asIjustsaid,setagoal,working
towardsaworldsysteminwhichitisnottheprimaryguarantorofworldsecurity.That
makesustheessentiallysolepillarofthesystem.Anysystemthatrestsononepillaris
notverystrong.
I'mnotexactlysurehowwe'regoingtogetthere,butIthinkweneedtostopsayingthat
toourselves,thatwearethesoleguarantor,we'retheprimaryguarantorofworld
security.Theworldhastoguaranteeitssecurity,andweneedtohelptheworldfigure
thatout.
John:Rick?
Rick:Idon'twanttojustbeguiltyofrepeatingmyself,butIdon'tthinkwe'regoingtoin
thistransitionfromtheUnitedStatesassomesaysit'sacentralpillaroftheexisting
systemtotheworld,somehow,doingthisisgoingtotakealongtime,beverybumpy,
andIhopesomedaywegetthere,butIdoubtit'sgoingtohappeninanybody'slifetimeor
beyond.
Idothinkwehavetobepreparedtoworkwithothercountries,butit'snottheUNinmy
judgment,IthinktheP5plusonemodelisinteresting.ThesuccesswithIran,itcouldbe
potentiallyappliedtosomeotherissues.WorkingwithjustthecorethreeEuropeansand
theUnitedStates.
I'malsopreparedincertainoccasionstostepbackandletothersdoit.TheNormandy
process,whichisnowunderwaywithUkraineandtheRussiansissomethingthatisan

p.29

interestingmodel.
Idobelievethatintheendit'sprobablygoingtotakePutinandaUSpresidenttoresolve
thatissue,andIthinkitisresolvable.ButIthinktheUnitedStatesdoesn'talwayshaveto
haveaseatatthetable.Mymainpointis,wewillneedtousemilitarypowerinthe
future,wewillhavetointerveneincertainsituations,
I'mjustarguingtonightthatweneedtomakesurethattheyareinsupportofourmost
importantnationalinterests,thattheyaretakenintermsofournationalinterests,andnot
insomekindofromanticdesiretospreadourvaluestopromotedemocracy,ortobuild
nationsabroad,that'saverytoughjobandwe'renotverygoodatdoingit.
Finally,ithastobemilitaryforce,ithastobeseen,thepoliceman'srolehastobeseenin
conjunctionwiththebusinessman'sroleinthatintermsoftheUnitedStatesasan
economicpower,asaninvestmentpower,asanenergypower,aswellasthesocial
worker'sroleintermsofbeingabletoworkwithcountriesonotherkindsofproblems,
andfinally,touseawordyouusedinsomeofyourwriting,asanumpire.
Assomebodywhoinsomecasescanactasonhonestbroker.Buttobelievethatthe
UnitedStates,thatweareindispensable,thatwehavetobepartofeverysolution,means
thatwe'realsogoingtobepartofeveryproblem.
John:TomDonnelly?
Tom:I'dliketostartbyapologizingtoJulieforlosingmycoolthere,inextenuation,I'll
sayIonlydiditonce,whenIcouldhavedoneitmuchmore.ButIthinkit'simportantto
focusnotsomuchontheprocess,butontheresultthatwewant.
IwanttheworldthatAmericahasmade,onethat'sagain,remarkablypeacefulinhistoric
terms.Incrediblyprosperous,again,comparedagainsttheexperienceofhumanityup
untilthispoint,andremarkablyfree.
Idon'twanttogiveupanyoneofthosethings,andbeforeIbuyanewworldorder,anda
newsetofpolicingfunctionsthatincludepeoplethatIdon'timmediatelytrust,Iwant
somebodytoexplaintomewhyweshouldeasily...it'saheadscratcher,that'swhyIget
frustrated.Thisisworkingagain,byanyreasonablehistoricalstandard,verywell.I'm
reluctanttogiveitup.
John:Julie?
Julie:Wecan'tdoitall,andwedohavetoprioritizeandbesmartabouthowwe
interveneintheworld,butwehavetoalsorecognizethatweplayauniqueleadership
role,andwhetherit'scombatingEbolainLiberia,orformingacoalitiontogoafterISIS,
orrespondingtothetsunamiinthePhilippines,theUnitedStatesbringsalot.
Webringinnovation,webringcapacity,webringdrive,we'rerisktaking,wecanbuild
coalitions,wehaveanunbelievablearrayofpartnershipsandalliancesunlikeanyother,

p.30

andthatputsusinauniqueposition.
Whetherwelikeitornot,wecantryandbrushitaway,andwegothroughthesecyclical
periodsafterVietnam,aftertheIraqWarwherewetrytopushawaysomeofthese
responsibilitiesanddenythatwe'vegotthisuniqueroletoplay.
Butweoftencomebacktothepositionthatwedohavetohavedeepengagementinthe
world,andthatwhenweshowup,othersfollow.
I'mnotheretosaywehavetointerveneeverywhere,thatmilitaryforceistheanswerto
everyproblem.ButIdobelievethattheUnitedStateshasacertainsetofcharacteristics
andattributesthatsereusandservetheworldmorebroadly.
John:Thankyou.Rick,Elizabeth,Julie,Tom,thankyousomuch.It'sbeenagreat
debate.
[applause]
John:Thankyou,toeachofyouwhoshoweduptonight.Letmeturnthelecternoverto
AmbassadorKurtVolker,thankyousomuch.
AmbassadorVolker:Thankyouverymuchforcoming.Letmeaskallofyoutogivea
roundofapplausetoourterrificmoderator,JohnDecker,thankyou.Verywellprepared.
[applause]
AmbassadorVolker:Thankyouvery,verymuch,andwe'regoingtobeconveningour
nextdebateatHarvardUniversityOctober28th,we'llhaveoneinPhoenixinNovember,
andthen,we'llbebackhereinDecember.
I'mlookingforwardtoseeingyou.Thankyou.
[music]

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