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‘NREGS has never been implemented in the right spirit as was

envisaged in the Act’
Ravish Tiwari Posted online: Sun Oct 31 2010, 03:48 hrs
Ravish Tiwari: Now that NREGS has been implemented country-wide, what are the challenges that you are up
against?

C P Joshi: After I became Rural Development Minister, I went through the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act
(NREGA) carefully. There are several significant aspects to it. In Sections 13 to 17, the role of the panchayat is
envisaged but the panchayat is not an effective instrument in implementation of the Mahatma Gandhi Rashtriya
Gramin Rozgar Yojana (MNREGS). The Act envisaged that the ward sabha will tak e decisions. Then the panchayat
samiti and zila parishad will be the main instruments in implementing the schemes. At the block level, we have
envisaged the role of the project officer, and at the district level, we have envisaged the role of the DPC (district
planning committee). So the functionaries have been identified for implementation and there is a provision of penalty
too. But the Act has never been implemented in the right spirit as was envisaged. Secondly, the Act was for the
enhancement of livelihood. The entitlement was with the household, not individuals. A household may consist of an
old man of 60 or 70 years. He is entitled to work . But he cannot give the output of a young 18-year-old. So the true
spirit of the Mahatma Gandhi Rashtriya Gramin Rozgar Yojana is not there. The feedback I get is not encouraging as
per the provision of the Act. We have ask ed the state governments to empower the local self governments but state
governments are not empowering them. They have had a shortage of funds and functionaries. But we have funds, we
have functionaries so I visualise that by implementing this Act we can strengthen grassroots democracy.

COOMI KAPOOR: What percentage of the NREGS funds reaches the people for whom it is intended? According to
media reports, NGOs and others, it’s not more than 50 per cent.

I don’t agree with this because the provision is that 60 per cent of the money is supposed to be invested in the labour
component, 40 per cent in the material component. The figure available with us is that more than 65 per cent of the
money is being spent on wages.

DHIRAJ NAYYAR:The implementation of NREGS and other government programmes differs substantially across
states. Rajasthan has always been better at implementing government programmes. What makes certain states
better than others?

In Rajasthan, we have a history of dealing with drought. So we have a well-placed system. Then we educate the
functionaries. Thus in Rajasthan, we are able to adhere to the provisions of the NREGS. The concern is about Bihar
and UP. In the Act, we have envisaged that each individual job-seek er will give an application to the panchayat. In the
country, out of 2.44 lak h panchayats, 70,000 panchayats do not have work ers. In UP, where the number of
panchayats is 50,000, there are only 6,000 functionaries. How effective can the implementation be?
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DHIRAJ NAYYAR: Is there any evidence of the NREGS raising minimum wage levels in certain states?

A lot of people are saying that. This indicates that the intervention has played a very important role.

D K SINGH: You lost the assembly elections in 2008 by one vote and that probably cost you the opportunity
to become the chief minister of Rajasthan. How did it happen?

I got more votes in 2008 than I got in 2003. I was the sitting MLA. What happened was that there were the
machine votes and the ballot votes. In the ballot votes, I lost, not in the machine votes. But I never thought of
myself as aspiring for chief ministership. The task given to me was to make sure that our party comes to
power. And as the president of the Pradesh Congress, I have done my duty. I think that’s why my leader asked
me to contest the parliamentary elections and they inducted me into the Cabinet.

D K SINGH:You have been concerned about the participation of Muslims in NREGS.

I can’t quite understand it. I thought that because you have a large number of minority persons in rural areas,
particularly in Bihar and UP, the response would be better. But their participation is low. One of the reasons is
that the Act envisages considerable manual work. It may be that they are not interested in manual work. I
have analysed the data: 5.6 crore people are working in NREGS, but only 65 lakh households have completed
100 days work. There are people who do not possess skills. Their livelihood depends on manual work. But
there are poor people who are not interested in manual work.

DHIRAJ NAYYAR: Is NREGS a safety net or a job creation programme?

We are enhancing livelihoods. The provision is for livelihood. The creation of a durable asset is a bi-product
of this. The state governments have their own planned budgets and they have a number of projects they have
to implement to obtain the physical assets. But NREGS is basically not meant for asset creation.

DHIRAJ NAYYAR: Do you think it dissuades people from looking for other jobs?

Not at all. Out of 365 days, we have given a guarantee of 100 days to every family, not to the individual. If a
family consists of four, then the entitlement is of 25 days.

MANEESH CHHIBBER: What do you think is the biggest roadblock in the implementation of the scheme?

The panchayati raj system is not working properly. We don’t have functionaries. We have empowered the
panchayats as per the Act. But the political parties are not playing their roles. Empowering the panchayats is
the role of every political party. It cannot be left to NGOs. The Act envisages that all the decisions will be
taken by panchayats because constitutionally, it is the panchayats which are responsible for this. I think a
lack of awareness is one of the major roadblocks.

Coomi Kapoor: In your role as president of the Rajasthan Cricket Association, how do you feel about the
fact that there will be no team from Rajasthan in the next IPL?

The IPL in Rajasthan is different from the state cricket association. A few entrepreneurs get together and bid
for a team. They say they are from Rajasthan but they do not belong to Rajasthan. So this is not a team
deployed by Rajasthan. To that extent, the sense of belonging is not there.

RAVISH TIWARI: In your assessment, what went wrong with the IPL teams?

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Any organisation functions effectively if you delegate powers and trust people. If you have centralised
decision making, then you will fall into a trap. The IPL was a byproduct of the BCCI, yet IPL became the
master of the BCCI. An independent IPL became everything. It took BCCI for a ride. Whenever you have an
imbalance in the delegation of power, you have some problem in the organisation.

Dhiraj Nayyar: One of the strengths of NREGS is that it is universal. Should the Food Security Act go the
same way?

I am of the opinion that whether it is employment or food, it should be universalised. But a country like ours
cannot afford to go all the way. If you have resources and plenty of food available, you could have done that.
Otherwise, you have to proceed in a phased manner.

D K SINGH: Why did you resign as Rajasthan PCC chief?

It was for my leader, my high command, to decide that. The day I lost the assembly elections, I did not have
the moral right to continue in the post. But my leader said I must continue. When I contested the
parliamentary election and then became a minister, then too, they said I should continue. So I have to
continue. But my opinion is that we require a full time president. It cannot be part-time. We have our own
government in Rajasthan, its programmes, policies must be propagated to the people.

D K SINGH: So a central minister can’t do full justice to a party post?

You cannot work more than 24 hours. If I am a minister, I have to divide my time between the ministry and my
organisation. So ultimately, one will be less than the other.

DHIRAJ NAYYAR: One of the challenges we face is in identifying the poor. We have multiple estimates
ranging from 25 per cent up to 75 per cent. Do you think there is a problem in measuring it and in the
methodology?

The estimate of how many numbers are below the poverty line (BPL) is done by the Planning Commission.
My ministry is concerned with the methodology of identifying the poor, the number is not our issue. We are
addressing the issue of methodology. In rural areas, who is poor? We have a criteria of inclusion and
exclusion. If you have land, then the record is available with the revenue department. If you have a vehicle,
the record is available with the transport department. If you have electricity, the record is available with the
electricity department. By this method, I hope we will be able to identify those who are genuinely poor.

D K SINGH: Tell us about your initiative to bring in MBAs and engineers as panchayat functionaries?

I have already said that 70,000 panchayats do not have a dedicated staff. I have identified that every year, Rs
40 lakh is given to different functionaries at the panchayat level and nobody is monitoring them. We want a
person who functions like a chief secretary of the states, a nodal person who can identify whether the
functionaries are working or not. In each panchayat, there should be three or four functionaries. A panchayat
development officer with an MBA degree, a technical person with an engineering degree or diploma, an
accountant-cum-computer operator and the fourth can be someone who is well-versed with the extension
services so that he can empower the people.

DK SINGH: Are you facing any opposition from elected representatives?

Unfortunately, what is happening at the grassroots level is that there is no democracy, and the elected
sarpanch becomes a contractor. We have to differentiate between these roles. The sarpanch cannot be an
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executive agency. The minister is not executing anything, the MLA is not executing anything, the MP is not
executing anything. They are only recommending things. But in a panchayat, the elected sarpanch is eligible
to execute the work and that’s where problems occur.

RAVISH TIWARI: Are you going ahead with the Land Acquisition Bill this Parliament session?

We have a coalition government. And you have to address the apprehension of allies. We hope that in the
coming session, we will able to resolve everything.

SHEKHAR GUPTA: Have you taken an inventory of the new policies that many state governments have now
instituted for land acquisition which may go beyond what the new Act may even contain? Are you listing the
best practices?

We are aware of them. For instance, in Haryana, they have a concept of annuity, we know about Gujarat,
Punjab. But it cannot be uniform in the entire country because the economy of states differs.

Sandeep Das: NREGS is also known for one of the biggest banking inclusion programmes in terms of the
number of bank accounts which have been opened till date. What are the latest figures?

We have made it compulsory that every payment will be either through the post office or bank. The
information we have is that Tamil Nadu is not following this practice. Otherwise, more than 8 crore people
have accounts.

DHIRAJ NAYYAR: The Cabinet Secretary had circulated a note saying care should be taken before naming
government programmes after former Congress prime ministers. Your ministry presides over the maximum
number of such programmes named after former Congress prime ministers. Do you think programmes should
be named after political leaders?

We should be very careful about naming schemes after our great leaders. Ultimately, if you have a
programme which is not up to the expectations of the leader, then it will give a negative connotation.

COOMI Kapoor: But in your ministry, almost all the schemes have the name Gandhi attached to them.

Because the Gandhis have ruled the country. These programmes are meant for rural people where the
identification of these leaders with the programmes was important.

Ravish Tiwari: You are part of the screening committee of candidates for Bihar and you have visited Bihar.
What is your assessment of the Congress’s chances?

I went before the elections started. My own assessment is that people want change. But I don’t know the
ground reality because I have not been there after the elections were declared. As for the Congress, we may
not win enough seats to form a government but our presence will be in the entire state.

Transcribed by Shalini Narayan, For the longer version, visit www.indianexpress.com

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