Transcript for The Inner Landscape of Beauty

January26,2012

KRISTATIPPETT,HOST:JohnO'DonohuewasanIrishpoetandphilosopherbelovedforhisbooks,includingAnamara,
Gaelicfor"soulfriend,"andforhisinsistenceonbeautyasahumancallingandadefiningaspectofGod.Isatdown withJohnO'Donohueinourstudiosinthefallof2007.Thenjustafewmonthslater,beforeourinterviewcouldgoto air,hediedinhissleepattheageof52.Andsothishourofradiohasbecomearemembranceofhim.Atthesame time,JohnO'DonohuehadaveryCelticlifelongfascinationwithwhathecalled"theinvisibleworld."Andhewould surelyseethisasaserendipitouscontinuationofhislife'sworkofbringingancientmysticalwisdomtomodern confusionsandlongings.

JOHNO'DONOHUE:Beautyisn'tallaboutjustnice,lovelinesslike.Beautyisaboutmoreroundedsubstantial
becoming.SoIthinkbeautyinthatsenseisaboutanemergingfullness,agreatersenseofgraceand elegance,adeepersenseofdepth,andalsoakindofhomecomingfortheenrichedmemoryofyourunfolding life.

MS.TIPPETT:"TheInnerLandscapeofBeauty,"JohnO'Donohue'svision.I'mKristaTippett.ThisisOnBeingfrom
APM,AmericanPublicMedia. Anamarawaspublishedin1997,anditbecameaninternationalbestseller.JohnO'Donohue'sfinalwork,acollection ofblessings,waspublishedposthumously.Hewasbornin1956inCountyClareinwesternIreland. (SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

Historically,thispartoftheworldwasacrucibleofCelticChristianity,mergingastrongsenseofmysterywitha passionateembraceofnature,thebody,andthesenses.Thedivineisunderstoodasmanifesteverywherein everything.JohnO'DonohueenteredseminaryatayoungageandwasaCatholicpriestfor19years.Butinthe1980s, hewenttoGermanytostudythephilosophyofHegel.Heeventuallyleftthepriesthoodanddevotedhimselffulltimeto meditatingandwritingonbeauty,friendship,andhowthevisibleandtheinvisiblethematerialandthespiritual intertwineinhumanexperience. (SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:Tellmealittlebitmoreaboutwhereyoucomefromandwhatformedyou?Whatbeganto
formyoutocometothisspiritualperspectiveandphilosophicalandpoeticperspectivethatyouhavenow?

MR.O'DONOHUE:Well,IsupposeIwasblessedbybeingbornintoanamazinglandscapeinthewestof
Ireland.

MS.TIPPETT:Yes. MR.O'DONOHUE:Andit'stheBurrenregion,whichislimestone.Andit'sabarelimestonelandscape.AndI
oftenthinkthattheformsofthelimestonearesoabstractandaesthetic,anditisasiftheywerealllaiddown bysomewildsurrealistickindofdeity.Sosoonbeingachildandcomingoutintothat,itwaswaitinglikea hugewildinvitationtoextendyourimagination.Andthenit'srightontheedgeoftheoceanaswell,andsoa conversationanancientconversationbetweentheoceanandthestonegoingon.

MS.TIPPETT:Iknowthat"landscape"isareallypivotalwordforyouthatyouuse,notjustindescribingthe
naturalworldbutanimportantwordintalkingabouthowhumanbeingsknowthemselvesandmovethrough theworld.Ihaven'tbeentopreciselytheplaceyouarefrombutIthinkthewestcoastofScotland,thewest coastofIreland,itisthiscompletelyunusual,thiswildraw,bleakbeauty.Buttalktomeabouthowyouhave cometounderstandlandscapeassomethingthatformseachofus.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Well,Ithinkitmakesahugedifferencewhenyouwakeinthemorningandcomeoutof
yourhouse.Whetheryoubelieveyouarewalkingintodeadgeographicallocation,whichisusedtogettoa destination,orwhetheryouareemergingoutintoalandscapethatisjustasmuch,ifnotmore,aliveasyou butinatotallydifferentform.Andifyougotowardsitwithanopenheartandarealwatchfulreverence,that youwillbeabsolutelyamazedatwhatitwillrevealtoyou.AndIthinkthatwasoneoftherecognitionsofthe Celticimagination:thatlandscapewasn'tjustmatter,butthatitwasactuallyalive.Whatamazesmeabout landscape,landscaperecallsyouintoamindfulmodeofstillness,solitude,andsilencewhereyoucantruly receivetime.

MS.TIPPETT:Areyoujusttalkingthoughaboutlandscapeasthenaturalworldaroundus?I'lltellyou,I
rememberasummerIspentafewyearsafterIhadfirstgonetothisbeautiful,raw,wildedgeofScotland, andIwasworkingwithchildreninaveryimpoverishedinnercityneighborhood.AndIwouldoftenwishthatI couldjusttransportthem,youknow,foranhour,sothatwhattheysawwhentheyopenedtheireyesand lookedaroundthemwasthatkindofbeautythatopenssomuchpossibility.SoIwonderhowthisCeltic sensibilitywouldalsospeaktopeoplewhodon'thavethatkindofbeautyathand,thatkindofbeauty.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,anawfullotofurbanplanningparticularlyinpoorareashasdoublyimpoverishedthe
poorbytheuglinesswhichsurroundsthem.Andit'sunderstandablethatitissodifficulttoreachandsustain gentlenessthere.AndIdothink,like,afriendofmine,justinthelastweek,whowasabsolutelyexhaustedin London,justcameawaydowntosouthernEnglandandspenttheweekbytheslowoceanandshe'stotally recovered,youknow,comebacktoherself.

MS.TIPPETT:Right.Yes. MR.O'DONOHUE:ButIdothinkthoughthatit'snotjustamatteroftheouterpresenceofthelandscape.I
mean,thedawngoesupandthetwilightcomeseveninthemostroughestinnercityplace.AndIthinkthat connectingtotheelementalcanbeawayofcomingintorhythmwiththeuniversethat'sthere.AndIdo thinkthatthereisawayinwhichtheouterpresenceeventhroughmemoryorimaginationcanbe broughtinwardasasustainingthing.Imean,Ithinkthatandit'sthequestionofbeauty,Imean,you're askingessentially.Imean,Ithinkthataswearespeaking,thatthereareindividualsholdingouton frontlines,holdingthehumanetissuealiveinareasofultimatebarbarity,wherethingsarevisiblethatthe humaneyeshouldneversee.

MS.TIPPETT:Right. MR.O'DONOHUE:Andtheyareabletosustainit,becausethereisinthemsomekindofsenseofbeauty
thatknowsthehorizonthatwearereallycalledtoinsomeway.IlovePascal'sphrase,youknow,thatyou shouldalways"keepsomethingbeautifulinyourmind."AndIhaveoftenlikeintimeswhenit'sbeenreally difficultforme,ifyoucankeepsomekindoflittlecontourthatyoucanglimpsesidewaysatnowandagain, youcanenduregreatbleakness.

MS.TIPPETT:Youknow,I'vebeenlookingbackatthethoughtofthetheologianReinholdNiebuhr,andhe
hasthisstatementatthebeginningofhisbookTheNatureandDestinyofMan,youknow,thefirstline,"Man ishisownmostvexingproblem."OrIthinkofagreatkindofpivotalworkinthiscultureofmodern psychology,M.ScottPeck'sbook,whichbegins,"Lifeisdifficult."AndthenIreadthisline,whichbeginsyour bookAnamara,whichisalsoadifferentwayofkindofanalyzingthehumancondition:"It'sstrangetobe here.Themysteryneverleavesyou."Talktomeaboutthatasawayofthinkingaboutwhatitmeanstobe humanandhowyoucometothatandwhatyoumeanwhenyouwritethosewords.

MR.O'DONOHUE:OK.Imean,whenyouthinkaboutlanguageandyouthinkaboutconsciousness,it'sjust
incredibletothinkthatwecanmakeanysoundsthatcanreachoveracrosstoeachotheratall.BecauseI mean,Ithinkwe'reIthinkthebeautyofbeinghumanisthatwe'reincredibly,intimatelyneareachother. Weknowabouteachother,butyetwedonotknowornevercanknowwhatit'slikeinsideanotherperson. Andit'samazing,youknow,hereamIsittinginfrontofyounow,lookingatyourface,you'relookingatmine andyetneitherofushaveeverseenourownfaces.Andthatinsomeway,thoughtisthefacethatweput onthemeaningthatwefeelandthatwestrugglewithandthattheworldisalwayslargerandmoreintense andstrangerthanourbestthoughtwilleverreach.Andthat'sthemysteryofpoetry,youknow,ispoetry triestodrawalongsidethemysteryasit'semergingandsomehowbringitintopresenceandintobirth. (SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:ThelateIrishpoetandphilosopherJohnO'Donohue.PoetryhasalwayshadavitalroleinCelticandIrish
culture,history,andspirituality.Here'sanancientarchetypalpoem,the"SongofAmergin."ThesearesomeofIreland's oldestknownversesillustratingtheCelticsenseofasymbioticandseamlessrelationshipbetweenthenaturalandthe divine.

READER:
Iamthewindonthesea Iamtheoceanwave Iamthesoundofthebillows Iamthesevenhornedstag Iamthehawkonthecliff Iamthedewdropinsunlight Iamthefairestofflowers Iamtheragingboar Iamthesalmoninthedeeppool Iamthelakeontheplain Iamthemeaningofthepoem Iamthepointofthespear Iamthegodthatmakesfireinthehead Wholevelsthemountain? Whospeakstheageofthemoon? Whohasbeenwherethesunsleeps? Who,ifnotI?

MS.TIPPETT:FindthispoemandviewimagesofConnemara,JohnO'Donohue'shome,andotherdramaticIrish
landscapesofhisyouthatonbeing.org.I'mKristaTippett,andthisisOnBeingconversationaboutmeaning,religion, ethics,andideas.Today:"TheInnerLandscapeofBeauty"JohnO'Donohue'sCelticimaginationabouthumanlifeand meaning.

MS.TIPPETT:Whatdoyoumeanwhenyouwritethateveryoneisanartist? MR.O'DONOHUE:Imeanthateveryoneisinvolvedwhethertheylikeitornotintheconstructionoftheir
world.So,it'sneverasgivenasitactuallylooksyouarealwaysshapingitandbuildingit.AndIfeelthatfrom thatperspective,thateachofusisanartist.Secondly,Ibelievethateveryonehasimagination.Thatno matterhowmatureandadultandsophisticatedapersonmightseem,thatpersonisstillessentiallyanex baby.Andaschildren,wealllivedinanimaginalworld.Youknow,whenyou'vebeentolddon'tcrossthat wall,becausethere'smonstersoverthere,mygod,theworldyouwouldcreateontheothersideofthewall.

MS.TIPPETT:Right. MR.O'DONOHUE:Youknow,andlikewhenyou'daskquestionslikewhyistheskyblueorwheredoesGod
liveoryouknowallthiskindofstuff.LikeoneofthefirsttimesIwascomingtoAmerica,Isaidtomylittle niece,whowasseven,Isaid,"WhatwillIbringyoufromAmerica?"Shesaid,"Uhhhhh."Andherfathersaid, "No,askhimoryouwon'tgetanything."AndKatyturnedtomeandsaid,"What'sinit?"(Laughter)WhichI thoughtwasagreatquestionaboutAmerica.Sothatchildlikething.Andsecondly,likethat,everynight

whenwesleepwedream,andadreamisasophisticated,imaginativetextfulloffiguresanddramathatwe sendtoourselves.SoIbelievethatdeepintheheartofeachofus,thereisthisimagining,imaginalcapacity thatwehave.Sothatwearealldoingit.

MS.TIPPETT:AndasIreadyou,Ithinkwhatyouarealsosayingisthatjusttheactofliving,ofcreatingour
lives,ofgrowing,movingforwardintimeisacreativeact.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Absolutely,itisacreativeact,because MS.TIPPETT:Thatitisaworkofart MR.O'DONOHUE:That'sright,because MS.TIPPETT:totoelevate,toennobletogiveennoblingwordstosomethingwearedoing. MR.O'DONOHUE:That'sright,becausetheamazingthingaboutus,Imean,thisiswearesostrangeand

welosesightactuallyofhowstrangeweare.Imean,I'malwaysamazedthatyounevermeetahuman youmeethumanslookingforallkindsofthings.Andyounevermeetahumanandyousaytothem,"What areyoulookingforonthisday?""I'mlookingforyesterday.Wheredidyesterdaygoto?"Wejusttakeitthat itgoesintonothingness.Andthat'sononeside.Theotherthingofcourseisthatwehavenoideawhatwill landontheshorelineofmorningtomorrow.Sothatwearealwaysactivelyinvolvedinreceivingandshaping, youknow?

MS.TIPPETT:Youwroteabouttime:"Possibilityisthesecretheartoftime.Onitsoutersurfacetimeis
vulnerabletotransience.Initsdeeperheart,timeistransfiguration."IwonderhowyouareabletohaveI don'tknow,Ithinkalargersenseoftime,becauseofasaninheritoroftheCeltictradition.Ihavethis

MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,Ithinkthat'sabitofit,youknow?ThatoldCelticthing,because,Imean,thereis
inIreland,like,stilleventhoughit'sgettingconsumerizedsofast.ThereisstillinthewestofIreland,whereI live,asenseoftime,youknow?Thatthere'stimeforthings.

MS.TIPPETT:Right. MR.O'DONOHUE:AndthatwhenGodmadetime,hemadeplentyofit,andalltherestofit.Andyousee,I
thinkthatoneofthehugedifficultiesinmodernlifeisthewaytimehasbecometheenemy.

MS.TIPPETT:Timeisabully.We'recaptivetoit. MR.O'DONOHUE:Totally,andI'dsaysevenoutofevery10peoplewhoturnupinadoctor'ssurgeryare
sufferingfromsomethingstressrelated.Now,therearebigpsychologicaltomeswrittenonstress.Butforme, philosophically,stressisapervertedrelationshiptotime.Sothatratherthanbeingasubjectofyourown time,youhavebecomeitstargetandvictim,andtimehasbecomeroutine.Soattheendoftheday,you probablyhaven'thadatruemomentforyourself.Andyouknow,torelaxinandtojustbe.Because,you know,thewayinthiscountrythere'sallthedifferentzones.Ithinktherearethesezoneswithinusas well.There'ssurfacetime,whichisreallyarapidfireFerraritime.

MS.TIPPETT:Yes,andoverstructured. MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,overstructured,like,andstolenfromyou,thievedallthetime.Andthenifyousit
down,like,DanSiegel,myfriend,doesthislovelymeditation,youknow:Youimaginethesurfaceofthe oceanisallrestlessandthenyouslipdowndeepbelowthesurfacewhereit'sstillandwherethingsmove slower.AndwhatIloveinthisregardismyoldfriendMeisterEckhart,14thcenturymystic.

MS.TIPPETT:Right.Germanmystic. MR.O'DONOHUE:Germanmystic.AndonedayIreadinhimandhesaid,"Thereisaplaceinthesoul
thereisaplaceinthesoulthatneithertime,norspace,nornocreatedthingcantouch."AndIreallythought thatwasamazing,andifyoucashitout,whatitmeansis,thatinthatyouridentityisnotequivalentto yourbiography.Andthatthereisaplaceinyouwhereyouhaveneverbeenwounded,wherethere'sstilla surenessinyou,wherethere'saseamlessnessinyou,andwherethereisaconfidenceandtranquilityinyou. AndIthinktheintentionofprayerandspiritualityandloveisnowandagaintovisitthatinnerkindof sanctuary.

(SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:JohnO'Donohue.Here'sareadingfromhisbookAnamara. READER:IntheCeltictradition,thereisabeautifulunderstandingofloveandfriendship.Oneofthe
fascinatingideashereistheideaofsoullovetheoldGaelictermforthisisanamara.AnamistheGaelic wordforsoulandaraisthewordforfriend.IntheearlyCelticchurch,apersonwhoactedasateacher, companion,orspiritualguidewascalledananamara.Itoriginallyreferredtosomeonetowhomyou confessedrevealingthehiddenintimaciesofyourlife.Withtheanamarayoucouldshareyourinnermost self,yourmind,andyourheart.Thisfriendshipwasanactofrecognitionandbelonging.Ineveryone'slife thereisgreatneedforananamara,asoulfriend,inthisloveyouareunderstoodasyouarewithoutmask orpretension.Whereyouareunderstood,youareathome. (SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:Youknow,IthinkalotabouthowinWesternculture,andtheUnitedStatesculture,really
importantwordsgetwatereddownandalmostruinedandyetwestillneedthem,and"love"isoneofthose words.And"friendship,"Ithink,mayalsobeawordinwhichwehaven'twestruggletotonotletour definitionofthatbecomeimpoverished.Andyouknowjusttobringthistoaverypracticallevel,someofthe thingswewringourhandsaboutinourpubliclife,likethedisintegrationofmarriages,youknow,thekindof crisisofrelationship.Andthenimplicationsofthat,likehowdoweraiseourchildrentoknowwhat commitmentis?AndIactuallythinkanimpoverishedsenseofloveandoffriendshipcomplicatesthat.You know,I'maskingyouthisasaphilosopherandIthinkasawiseperson.Imean,arewelesscapableoflove andcommitmentandrelationshipinamaturesense,youknow,inourtimethanpreviousgenerationswere? Oristhisjustahumandilemmathathasdifferentdetailsinourtime?

MR.O'DONOHUE:Idon'tthinkwe'relesscapableatall.Ithinkwe'remoreunpracticedatitandtherefore
moredesperateforit.AndIthinkit'samatterofattentionreally,justattention.Thatifyourealizehowvital toyourwholespiritandbeingandcharacterandmindandhealthfriendshipactuallyis,youwilltake timeforit,youknow?Andthetroubleisthoughforsomanyofusisthatwehavetobeintroublebeforewe rememberwhat'sessential.Andsometimesit'soneofthelonelinessesofhumansisthatyouholdon desperatelytothingsthatmakeyoumiserableandthatsometimesyouonlyrealizewhatyouhavewhen you'realmostabouttoloseit. So,Ithinkthatitwouldbegreattostepbackalittlefromone'slifeandseearoundonewhoarethosethat holdmedear,thattrulyseeme,andthosethatIneed,andtobeabletogototheminadifferentway. Becausetheamazingthingabouthumansiswehaveimmensecapacitytoreawakenineachotherthe profoundabilitytobewitheachotherandtobeintimate.That'soneofthethingsI'vealwaysthoughthereis that,youknow,thereislonelinessherethatiscoveredoverbythisfakelanguageofintimacythatyoumeet everywhere.

MS.TIPPETT:Right MR.O'DONOHUE:Andthatdoesn'thaveyouknow,everybodywillsay,"Haveaniceday"toyouand,you
know,youcanimagineifyouwentturnedbacktothemandsaid,"God,IreallywonderifI'llhaveanice dayorwhatthedaywillbelike,"thingscouldgetcomplicatedverysuddenly,youknow?AndIthinkthisis oneofthekeythingsinparentingandthedifficultyofraisingchildreninavery,veryfastmovingculturethat againit'sthedifficultyofcreatingaspacewherechildrencanactuallyunfoldandwheretheycanbetruly accompaniedintheirjourney.BecauseIthinkyoungkidsnowinadolescencearegoingthroughhuge,huge questionzonesthatwhenwewereyoungwedidn'tgothrough.Andsometimesit'sverylonesometowatch howdistantparentsfeelfromthem,becauseoftheirincapacitytosomehowholdconversationswiththem thatreallyneedtohappen.

MS.TIPPETT:Ithinksomethingelsethat'sconnectedtoallofthisthatwe'renotveryselfawareaboutin
thiscultureistheconnectionbetweenourinteriorlivesandourexteriorappearance,notjustphysical appearance,buthowweconductourlivesinthelightofotherofexpectations,andIthinkthatis somethingthatyouwriteaboutagainthatwejustaren'tattentivetowards.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,IfeellikeinthebookIwroteonbeauty,Iwastryingtosaythatoneofthehuge
confusionsinourtimesistomistakeglamourforbeauty.

MS.TIPPETT:Yes.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Andwedoliveinaculturewhichisveryaddictedtotheimage,andIthinkthatthereis
alwaysanuncannysymmetrybetweenthewayyouareinwardwithyourselfandthewayyouareoutward. AndIfeelthatthereisanevacuationofinterioritygoingoninourtimes.Andthatweneedtodrawback insideourselvesandthatwe'llfindimmenseresourcesthere.

MS.TIPPETT:Whenyousaysymmetry,Idon'tthinkyoumeanthatthatthere'sanequality,butthatthey
areintimatelyconnected.

MR.O'DONOHUE:They'reintimatelyyeahthat'sprecisely,yep. MS.TIPPETT:We'reputtingourenergyoutwardit'stakingsomethingfrominsideus. MR.O'DONOHUE:Right.It'stakingsomethingexactlythat'sexactlywhatImean.Thatit'staking

somethingfrominsideandwe'resecretlydebilitatingourselves.And,youknow,it'sunderstandabletoo. Becauseifyoulookattheeducationalsystemandyoulookatmostofthepublicforainourculture,thereis verylittletimeorattentiongiventowhatyoucouldalmostcalllearningtheartofinwardnessorapedagogy ofinteriority.

MS.TIPPETT:Right. MR.O'DONOHUE:That'swhyIfindtheaestheticthingslikepoetry,fiction,goodfilm,theater,drama,dance,
andmusicactuallyawakenthatinsideyou,youknow?Andremindyouthatthereisahugeinterioritywithin you.Like,forinstancewhenIcameintoNewYorklastThursdayeveningandcheckedintothehotel,Ifound outthattherewasaTchaikovskyconcertoninLincolncenter.AndIwentoverthereandIgotaticket,like oneofthelasttickets,whichwastworowsinthefront,andI'dneverbeensonearanorchestra.AndIsaid, "Mygod,I'mtoonear."ThenIwatchedthem,andalltherestofit.ButIknew,whyIwasgiventheticket then,attheend,becauseitwasTchaikovsky'sViolinConcertoinD,andLorinMaazelcameouttoconductit. Andthenthisbeautifulviolinist,JanineJansen,aDutchviolinist,itwasherdebutinNewYork.Andshe playedthis,itwasjustunbelievable.Icried.Like,afterthefirstmovement,peoplespontaneouslystoodup andwenttogiveherastandingovation,andshejustheldit.Andweallwentbackagainintoourseats.And thenattheend,peoplewerejustblownaway,becauseanevent,anaestheticeventhadhappened. ThisisacomplicatedpieceofmusiceverywhereshewasplayingaStradivariusfrom1727.Everywhereshe wentonthisviolinshegotexactlywhatshewaslookingfor,shehelditandMaazelwassosovereignandso youknowlikeahugepatriarch.AndthreeorfourtimesIwasupcloseenoughtoseethemhelooked atherwithawistful,proudgentlenessofagrandfather.Andtherewasthiswoman,thisbeautifulslimbody, andyoucouldalmostseethemusichurtingherevenwhenshewasn'tplaying.Soitwasahuge,andlike everybodyandtherewerehardenedNewYorkcriticstherebuteverybodywassotouched.AndIthink that'sthemagnificenceofbeauty,isthateveninlandscapesofcontrol,corrugatedcategoriesthatyoucanbe sweptoffyourfeetbyjustbeauty. (Soundbiteof"SwanLake")

MS.TIPPETT:ThelateIrishpoetandphilosopherJohnO'Donohue.ThisistheDutchviolinisthejustmentioned,Janine
Jansen,playinganotherpiecebyTchaikovsky,"SwanLake." (Soundbiteof"SwanLake")

MS.TIPPETT:Hearthispieceagainatonbeing.org.Whileresearchingthemusicforthisshow,weserendipitouslyfound
avideoofGaelicsinginginthe"oldstyle"amusicalformcalledseannos.YoucanhearthearrestingvoiceofIarla Lionird,frontmanforthebandAfroCeltSoundSystem,singinginapub. (SoundbiteofIarlaLionirdsinging) Findlinksatonbeing.org. (Soundbiteofmusic) Comingup,wheresoulandbeautymightfitintomodernworkandtheunusualemotionalpowerofCelticmusic. "Music,"JohnO'Donohuesaid,"iswhatlanguagewouldlovetobeifitcould."I'mKristaTippett.Thisprogramcomesto youfromAPM,AmericanPublicMedia.

(Soundbiteofmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:I'mKristaTippett,andthisisOnBeing.Today:"TheInnerLandscapeofBeauty"withthelateIrish
poetandphilosopherJohnO'Donohue.Iinterviewedhimjustbeforehisdeathin2008. (Soundbiteofmusic) We'vebeentalkingaboutbeauty,atopicwhichranthroughmuchofhiswriting.Thehumansouldoesnotmerely hungerforbeauty,JohnO'Donohuebelievedwefeelmostaliveinthepresenceofwhatisbeautiful.Itreturnsusoften infleetingbutsustainingmoments,hesaid,toourhighestselves.Andaneglectofbeauty,hebelieved,isattheheart ofourdeepestmoderncrises.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Ithinkthatbeautyisnotaluxury,butIthinkthatitennoblestheheartandremindsus
oftheinfinitythatiswithinus.IalwayslovedwhatMandelasaidwhenhecameout,andIwasactuallyinhis cellinRobbenIsland,onetimeIwasinSouthAfrica.Evenafter27yearsinconfinementforsomethinghe neverforwrongyounevercommitted,heturnedhimselfintoahugepriestandcomeoutwiththis sentencewherehesaid,"Youknowthatwhatweareafraidofisnotsomuchourlimitationsbuttheinfinite withinus."AndIthinkthatthatisineverybody.AndIsupposethequestionthat'sattheheartofallwe've beendiscussingreally,whichisabeautifulquestion,isthequestionofGod,youknow? AndIthinkthatoneofthereasonsthatsomanypeopleturnawayfromreligioninourtimesisthattheGod questionhasdiedforthem,becausethequestionhasbeenframedinsuchrepetitivedeadlanguage.AndI thinkit'stheexcitingquestion,onceyouawakentothepresenceofGod.

MS.TIPPETT:Well,youhavesaid,youwrite,"GodisBeauty." MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,II,yeah,Ihave,yeah. MS.TIPPETT:Didyoualwaysfeelthis?Isthatsomethingisthatasensethathasgrowninyouor

somethingthatyounamenow?

MR.O'DONOHUE:It'sasensethathasgrowninme,Isuppose,thatI'vealwayskindofhadtheintuition
aboutit,becauseIfeelthattherearetwowaysthatyoumustalwayskeeptogetherinapproachingtheGod thing.Oneis,andthisiswhatIlikeabouttheChristiantraditionandthisiswhereIdivergealittlefrom theBuddhisttraditioneventhoughIloveBuddhismasamethodologytocleanupthemindandgetyouinto purityofpresence.WhatIloveisthatattheheartofChristianity,youhavethisideaofintimacy,whichis truebelonging,beingseen,theultimatehomeofindividuation,theultimatesourceofitandthe homecoming. That'swhatIcallspirituality,theartofhomecoming.Soit'sSt.Augustine'sphrase,like,"Deusintimior intimomeo""GodismoreintimatetomethanIamtomyself."ThenyougotoMeisterEckhart,andyou gettheothersideofit,whichyoumustalwayskeeptogetherwithit,whereinMiddleHighGerman,hesays, "GottwirtundGottentwirt"thatmeans,"GodbecomesandGodunbecomes,"ortranslateditmeansthat Godisonlyournameforit,andthecloserwegettoitthemoreitceasestobeGod.Sothenyouareonareal safariwiththewildnessanddangerandothernessofGod.

MS.TIPPETT:Right. MR.O'DONOHUE:AndIthinkwhenyoubegintogetasenseofthedepththatistherethenyourwhole
heartwakensup.Youknow,Imean,IloveIrenaeus'thingfromthesecondcentury,whichsaid,theGloryof thehumanbeing"ThegloryofGodisthehumanbeingfullyalive."AndIthinkinourculturethatoneof thethingsthatwearemissingisthatthesethresholdswherewecanencounterthis,andwherewemove intonewchangeinourlives,therearenoritualstohelpustorecognizethemortocrossthemworthily.

MS.TIPPETT:Andyouknowthresholdisawordyouuseagreatdealinyourbookonbeautyaswell. MR.O'DONOHUE:Itis,yeah. MS.TIPPETT:Andwhatisthatrelationshipbetweenbeautyandthresholds?

MR.O'DONOHUE:Well,Ithinkthatthethreshold,ifyougobacktotheetymologyoftheword"threshold,"it
comesfrom"threshing,"whichistoseparatethegrainfromthehusk.Sothethreshold,inaway,isaplace whereyoumoveintomorecriticalandchallengingandworthyfullness.AndIthinktherearehugethresholds ineverylife.Imean,Ithink,youknowthat,forinstance,I'dliketogiveaverysimpleexampleofitis,thatif youareinthemiddleofyourlifeinabusyevening,50thingstodoandyougetaphonecallthatsomebody youloveissuddenlydying.Takes10secondstocommunicatethatinformation,butwhenyouputthephone down,youarealreadystandinginadifferentworld.Becausesuddenlyeverythingthatseemssoimportant beforeisallgoneandnowyouarethinkingofthis.Sothegivenworldthatwethinkisthereandthesolid groundweareonissotentative.AndIthinkathresholdisalinewhichseparatestwoterritoriesofspirit,and Ithinkthatveryoftenhowwecrossisthekeything.

MS.TIPPETT:Andwhereiswhereisbeautyinthat? MR.O'DONOHUE:WherebeautyisIthinkisbeautybeautyisn'tallaboutjustnice,lovelinesslike.
Beautyisaboutmoreroundedsubstantialbecoming.AndIthinkwhenwecrossanewthresholdthatifwe crossworthily,whatwedoiswehealthepatternsofrepetitionthatwereinusthathaduscaught somewhere.Andinourcrossingthenwecrossontonewgroundwherewejustdon'trepeatwhatwe'vebeen throughinthelastplacewewere.SoIthinkbeautyinthatsenseisaboutanemergingfullness,agreater senseofgraceandelegance,adeepersenseofdepth,andalsoakindofhomecomingfortheenriched memoryofyourunfoldinglife.

MS.TIPPETT:Iwanttoaskyou,Ithinkwe'rerightwhenwebegantotalkaboutbeauty,yourightlysaid
thatinthisculturewetendtoassociatebeautywithglamour.AndIthinkifyoujustmentiontheword,ifyou justthrewitintoacommonplaceconversation,someonemightjustthinkofabeautifulface,ofafamous beautifulface,right?Iwanttoaskyou,andwantyouwhenyouthinkoftheword"beauty,"whatpictures comeintoyourmind?

MR.O'DONOHUE:WhenIthinkoftheword"beauty,"someofthefacesofthosethatIlovecomeintomy
mind.WhenIthinkofbeautyIalsothinkofbeautifullandscapesthatIknow.ThenIthinkofactsofsuch lovelykindnessthathavebeendonetome,bypeoplethatcaredforme,inbleakunshelteredtimesorwhenI neededtobelovedandminded.Ialsothinkofthoseunknownpeoplewhoaretherealheroesforme,who youneverhearabout,whoholdoutonlinesonfrontiersofawfulwantandawfulsituationsandmanage somehowtogobeyondthegivenimpoverishmentsandoffergiftsofpossibilityandimaginationandseeing.I alsothinkalwayswhenIthinkofbeautybecauseit'ssobeautifulformeisIthinkofmusic.Ilove music.Ithinkmusicisjustit.Imean,Ithinkthat'sIlovepoetryaswell,ofcourse,andIthinkofbeauty inpoetry.ButIalwaysthinkthatmusiciswhatlanguagewouldlovetobeifitcould,youknow?And

MS.TIPPETT:Right.IhavetosaythatIdiscoveredCelticmusic,youknow,aftergoingtothatpartofthe
world,Scotlandespecially.AndCelticmusicformehasthiscompletely,youcansaythisaboutBeethovenas well,butinaveryparticularway,itseemstoexpressthegreatestjoyandalsothedeepestsorrow,almost indistinguishablefromeachotherandyetbothwithakindofhealingforce.Ican'tevenputwordsaround what

MR.O'DONOHUE:That'sbeautifulwhatyou'vesaidthough,becauseIthinkthereisthat.Oneofthethings
I'malwaysamazedaboutIrishmusic,forinstance,ishowinsomewaythelinesofthelandscapefindtheir wayintothemusic,thememoryofthelandscapealmost,thememoryofthepeopletoo.Andthatinsome sensedespitethesorrowthatwe'veendured,andImeanIrelandit'snotfashionabletosayitnow,Ireland hashundredsofyearsofanawfulhistoryofsuffering.

MS.TIPPETT:AndIfeelthatyouhearthatinthemusicofIreland. MR.O'DONOHUE:Youhearitinthemusic,youdo. MS.TIPPETT:Evenin MR.O'DONOHUE:Eveninthefastmusicandthelight,gaymusic. MS.TIPPETT:thecelebratoryYes.Yes. MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,youdo.Yeah,youdo.Youhearitthereyouheartheundertonesandthequiet

spaceswheretheechoofthishauntednesscomesthrough.

(SoundbiteofIrishmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:Andyetitisabsolutelylinkedwithseejoydoesn'tevendoiteitherwiththis. MR.O'DONOHUE:Itdoesn't. MS.TIPPETT:Exuberance. MR.O'DONOHUE:Yeah,there'sanexuberanceoravitality. MS.TIPPETT:Yes. MR.O'DONOHUE:There'ssomekindofvitality.AndIknowfriendsofmine,whoplayyouknow,andwhen

theyplaythey'reunreachable,youcan'tfindthem,youknow?They'retotallythey'reservingthemusic. They'rejustinanotherplace. (SoundbiteofGaelicsinging)

MS.TIPPETT:I'mKristaTippettwithOnBeingconversationaboutmeaning,religion,ethics,andideas.Today:"The
InnerLandscapeofBeauty."Inthelastyearsofhislife,JohnO'Donohuebecameawellknownspeakeronleadership andcreativityinthecorporatesector.Heconsultedwithexecutivesonintegratingasenseofthesoulandofbeautyinto theirleadershipandtheirimaginationaboutthepeoplewithwhomtheywork. (SoundbiteofGaelicsinging)

MS.TIPPETT:Iwouldliketohearabouttheworkyoudoincorporationsandworkplaces.Itseemstomeina
strangewaysomeofthemostthegreatestintimacyandcommunitywehaveorfailtohaveiswithour colleaguesatwork.Andbecausewespendsomuchtimeatworkanditsodefinesus,youknow,oursouls thelightanddarknessofoursoulsisondisplayatwork.Andyetthere'sarealquestionabouthowdowe honorthatsortofinourselvesandinothersandremainprofessional.Idon'tknowifthat'swhatyougetatin yourworkwithcorporations,butthat'skindofonmymind.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Ithinkyouareright.Imean,wespendoveronethirdofourlivesactuallyinthe
workplace,andoneoftheloneliestthingsyoucanfindissomebodywhoisinthewrongkindofwork,who shouldn'tbedoingwhattheyaredoingbutshouldbedoingsomethingelseandhaven'tthecouragetogetup andleaveitandmakeanewpossibilityforthemselves.Butit'slovelywhenyoufindsomeoneatworkwho's doingexactlywhattheydreamedtheyshouldbedoingandwhoseworkisanexpressionoftheirinnergift. Andinwitnessingtothatgiftandinbringingitouttheyactuallyprovideanincredibleservicetousall.AndI thinkyouseethatthegiftsthataregiventousasindividualsarenotforusalone,orforourownself improvement,buttheyareactuallyforthecommunityandtobeoffered.AndIthinkthisiswhereleadership comesinatwork.Andthat'swhyIthinkgood,wiseleadershipwillbeattunedtothevitalityofatrueethos andhelpingtoestablishit.

MS.TIPPETT:Andareyoufindingthatthereisgreatinterestandcuriosityandwillingnesstohavethisnew
kindofimaginationinworkplaces.

MR.O'DONOHUE:Ireallythinkyeah,Ireallythinkthereis,becauseIthinkinmostworkplacesthereis
hugeimaginationanywaybutit'susuallypracticalimagination.There'sdedicationtoproductivityandlooking atthebottomline.AndIthinkthenwhentheystandbackalittleandseethatthespiritandsouldimensions arenotkindofluxuryitemsbutareactuallytheveryoriginsandsourceswhichwillenableeverythingtoflow andunfoldinanewway,thatthentheyrealizethattheinvisibleworldisasecrethiddenresourcethatcan bereleasedandexcavatedforthehugeresourcesofspirit,guidance,forareasofourselvesthatwe've forgotten.

MS.TIPPETT:ItwasactuallyinyourbookthatIfirstrealized,andIhadneverthoughtaboutthis,thatthe
roottheGreekrootfortheword"beauty"isrelatedtothewordforcalling.

MR.O'DONOHUE:That'sright. MS.TIPPETT:Kalon,kalein.

MR.O'DONOHUE:That'sitexactly. MS.TIPPETT:That'sfascinating. MR.O'DONOHUE:Itisactually.Anditmeansthatactuallyinthepresenceofbeauty.It'snotaneutral

thing,butit'sactuallycallingyou,youknow?AndIfeelthatonecouldwriteawonderfulpsychologyjust basedonthenotionofbeingcalled,youknow,beingcalledtobeyourselfandcalledtotransfigurewhathas hardenedorgotwoundedwithinyou.Andit'salso,ofcourse,theheartofcreativitythiscallingforthallthe time,becauselikeintheworkthatIdotryingtowriteafewpoems,youneverwritethesamepoemtwice. Youknow,youarealwaysatanewplace.Andthenyou'reyou'resuddenlysurprisedbywhereyouget takento,youknow?

MS.TIPPETT:Butifwethink,asyou'vesuggested,asbeautyasrelevanttosomeofthemosttroubling
problemsinourworldandinourselves,youknow,howdowepursuethatcalling,giventhelimitations,given thatalotofwhatisaroundusisnotvisibly,objectivelybeautifulandmaynotbe?

MR.O'DONOHUE:Absolutely,andthat'saveryfairquestion.Andyouknowit'slikeinoldnotionsofgrowth
anddevelopment,therewasalwaysthisidea,asNoelHanlon,apoetfriendofminesays,youknow,ina poemaboutherdaughter,"Likemeyouneededsomethingtopushagainst"thatsomehowweneeded somethingtopushagainstinordertogrow.Nowthereisalmostafeelinglikeasthatgrowthshouldbe deliveredtous.AndIthinkthatfromthewayyoustateitisthatit'sarecognition.Thatthereisthisdialectic there,thataroundustheforcesarenotkindintermsofeitherrecognizing,awakening,orencouraging beauty,butthatactually,theyshouldbetheimpetusandspurtodoit.Nowhowdowedoit? Oneway,andIthinkthisisareallylovelyway,andIthinkit'saninterestingquestiontoaskoneselftoo,you know?Andthequestioniswhenisthelasttimethatyouhadagreatconversation,aconversationwhich wasn'tjusttwointersectingmonologues,whichiswhatpassesforconversationalotinthisculture.Butwhen hadyoulastagreatconversation,inwhichyouoverheardyourselfsayingthingsthatyouneverknewyou knew.Thatyouheardyourselfreceivingfromsomebodywordsthatabsolutelyfoundplaceswithinyouthat youthoughtyouhadlostandasenseofaneventofaconversationthatbroughtthetwoofyouontoa differentplane.Andthenfourthly,aconversationthatcontinuedtosinginyourmindforweeksafterwards, youknow?AndI'veI'vehadsomeofthemrecently,andit'sjustabsolutelyamazing,like,aswewouldsay athome,theyarefoodanddrinkforthesoul,youknow? Secondthing,Ithinkaquestiontoalways,askoneself,whoareyoureading?Whoareyoureading?And whereareyoustretchingyourownboundaries?Areyourepetitiveinthat?Andyouknow,oneofthefirst booksIreadasachildwehadnobooksathome,butaneighborofourshadallthesebooksandhe broughtloadsofbooks,that'showIruinedmyeyesandIhavetowearglasses.ButoneofthefirstbooksI readwasabookbyWillieSutton,thebankrobber,whowasdoing30yearsforrobbingbanks.Andinthebook somebodyaskedWillie,andtheysaid,"Williewhydoyourobbanks?"AndWilliesaid,"'Causethat'swhere themoneyis."Andyouknow,whydowereadbooks,'causethat'swherethewisdomis. Solike,myprofessorsincollegesusedtoalwayssay,youknow,ifyouweredoinganessayordoingathesis, youknow,thefirstthingyouhavetodoisreadtheprimarysourcesandtrustyourownencounterwiththem beforeyougotothesecondaryliterature.AndI'dsaytoanybodywhoislisteningtous,whoisinterestedin spiritualityandwhoismaybebeingcoaxedalittleawayfrombelievingit'sallanaive,doomed,illusionridden thing,pickupsomethinglikeMeisterEckhartorsomeoneofthemysticsandjusthavealookatit,andyou canbesurprisedwhatanexcitingadventureandhomecomingitcouldbecome. (Soundbiteofmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:JohnO'DonohuediedinhissleeponJanuary3rd,2008,attheageof52.Thiswasoneofthelast
interviewshegave.HisbooksincludeAnamaraandBeauty.Hisfinalwork,whichwaspublishedposthumously,is calledToBlesstheSpaceBetweenUs:ABookofBlessings. Andhereinclosing,isoneofhiswellknownpoemsofblessing,whichhewroteforhismotheratthetimeofhisfather's death.Hereaditaloudtomewhenwesattogether.

MR.O'DONOHUE:ThisisapoemIwroteseveralyearsago,andit'scalled,Beannacht,whichistheGaelic
wordforblessing.

Onthedaywhen Theweightdeadens Onyourshoulders Andyoustumble, Maytheclaydance Tobalanceyou. Andwhenyoureyes Freezebehind Thegreywindow Andtheghostofloss Getsintoyou, Mayaflockofcolours, Indigo,red,green, Andazureblue Cometoawakeninyou Ameadowofdelight. Whenthecanvasfrays Inthecurrachofthought Andastainofocean Blackensbeneathyou, Maytherecomeacrossthewaters Apathofyellowmoonlight Tobringyousafelyhome. Maythenourishmentoftheearthbeyours, Maytheclarityoflightbeyours, Maythefluencyoftheoceanbeyours, Maytheprotectionoftheancestorsbeyours. Andsomayaslow Windworkthesewords Oflovearoundyou,

Aninvisiblecloak Tomindyourlife. (Soundbiteofmusic)

MS.TIPPETT:We'vewovenJohnO'Donohue'sreadingofBeannachttogetherwithhisfriend'sphotographsofthe
Connemaralandscapesheloved.Takethatinatonbeing.org.Thereyoucanalsofindlinkstoourblog,whereIwrote aboutavisitImadetoIreland.IwasrecalledthentoJohnO'Donohue'sobservationthatadefiningqualityofbeautyis howwefeelmorealiveinitspresence.Myoriginalconversationwithhimunfoldedovertwohours.Hespokeatlength aboutthehiddenpossibilitieswithinwordsandhisCelticsenseoftheinvisibleworld.Healsorecitedsevenotherpoems thatweweren'tabletoincludeinthisfinalbroadcast.Theyinclude,"ABlessingforaFriendontheArrivalofIllness"and "ABlessingforOneWhoHoldsPower."YoucanautomaticallygetthesepoemsasfreeMP3sbysubscribingtoour podcast.Lookforthe"PODCAST"buttonatthetopofourhomepageatonbeing.org.Andasalways,besureto"like"us onourFacebookpageatfacebook.com/onbeing.AndfollowusonTwitterourhandle:@Beingtweets. (Soundbiteofmusic) ThisprogramisproducedbyChrisHeagle,NancyRosenbaum,andSusanLeem.AnneBreckbillisourWebdeveloper. KateMoosisaconsultingeditor. SpecialthanksthisweektoLindaAlvarez. TrentGillissisoursenioreditor.AndI'mKristaTippett. (SoundbiteofGaelicsinging) [Announcements] (SoundbiteofGaelicsinging)

MS.TIPPETT:Nexttime:aninnovatorintheemergingfieldof"publichistory."Historyhasbecomeanewlyfavored
backdropforblockbusternovelsandmoviesandinterpretationsofhistorycomplicateourpresentpoliticaldivisions.Tiya Miles'workisaboutmakingforgottenhistoryusefultoourcommonlifestretchingthecanvasofthepastwide enoughthatitdeepensbothhardtruthsandhealing.

TIYAMILES:IfIdidn'tseelightinthestory,Icouldnottellitbecausethat'swhyI'mdoingthiswork.I'm
doingthisworktotrytocontributesomethingthatcanmoveustowardhealing,youknow,acrossand amongcommunitiesthathaveexperiencedsuchdivisiveness.Andhowcanweleanonwhatweknowabout thepasttoreachtowardamorepositivefuture?

MS.TIPPETT:Pleasejoinusnexttime.ThisisAPM,AmericanPublicMedia.

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