My Father's Depositions in Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (2007)

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 1 of 267
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION
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Edward Patrick, Plaintiff, VS.

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CASE NO. 05-CV-2797
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Cleveland Scene Publishing, ) LLC, et a l e , 1 1 Defendants. 1
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Videotaped deposition of Henry Heimlich, M.D.,

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a witness herein, called by the Defendant for cross-examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of
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Civil Procedure, taken before Rich Ramey, videographer, and Renee Rogers, Registered
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Professional Rsporter and notary public within and for the State of Ohio, at the offices of Finney, Stagnaro, Saba
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2623 Erie Avenue, Cincinnati, Ohio, on Friday, March 16, 2007, commencing at 9 : 3 0 a.m.
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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 2 of 267
Page 2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:

N. Jeffrey Blankenship, Esq. Monohan & Blankenship 7711 Ewing Boulevard, Suite 100 Florence, Kentucky 41042 (859) 283-1140
Randy J. Blankenship, Esq. Robbins, Kelly, Patterson & Tucker, LPA The Federated Building, Suite 1400 7 West Seventh Street Cincinnati, Ohio 45202 (513) 721-3330 behalf the Defendants:
Kenneth A. Zirm, Esq. Walter & Haverfield, LLP The Tower at Erieview 1301 East Ninth Street, Suite 3500 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 (216) 781-1212 14 15 On behalf of the Witness: Christopher P. Finney, Esq. Finney, Stagnaro, Saba & Patterson 2623 Erie Avenue Cincinnati, Ohio 45208 (513) 533-2980 19 Also Present: Edward Patrick Steven P. Suskin
Page 3
S T I P U L A T I O N S
It is stipulated by and among counsel for the
4 respective parties that the deposition of Henry

5 Heimlich, M.D. may be taken at this time by the 6 Defendant as upon cross-examination pursuant to the
7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and pursuant to 8 Notice and agreement of counsel as to the time and
9 place; that the deposition may be taken by videotape
10 and in stenotypy by the notary public-court reporter,
11 and transcribed by her out of the presence of the

12 witness, and that the transcribed deposition is to be
13 submitted to the witness for his examination and
14 signature.
I N D E X
2 Witness
Cross
3 HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D. By Mr. Zirm
E X H I B I T S
8 Defendants'
Marked
Page 5
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
My name is Rich The court
Ramey, today's video technician. reporter is Renee Rogers.
We're here today at 2623 Erie Avenue, Cincinnati, Ohio, to take the deposition of Dr. Henry Heimlich, pursuant to notice in United States District Court for the Northern District of Ohio, Eastern Division, case number 05-CV-2792, styled Edward Patrick versus Cleveland Scene Publishing, LLC, et al. The date is March 16, and
the time is 9:40 a.m.
Counsel will now introduce themselves

and whom they represent.
MR. ZIRM:
My name is Kenneth Zirm.
represent the defendant, Cleveland Scene Publishing and Thomas Francis. MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: Jeff Blankenship. Patrick. MR. RANDY BLANKENSHIP: My name is My name is
I represent Dr. Edward
Randy Blankenship, co-counsel for Dr.

Patrick.
MR. FINNEY:
I 'm Christopher Finney,
here on behalf of Dr. Heimlich today. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: swear in the doctor. Would you please
THE WITNESS:
Dr. Heimlich here.
(Whereupon, the witness was sworn in by the court reporter.) MR. ZIRM: Zirm. Dr. Heimlich, my name is Ken I
We just met this morning.
represent Cleveland Scene Publishing in a lawsuit that has been brought against that newspaper by Dr. Edward Patrick. I'm going to be asking you a few questions this morning related to some of the issues that have arisen in that lawsuit. First thing I want to ask is if you've had your deposition taken before. THE WITNESS: ever did. MR. ZIRM: Okay. Let me just -- a
No.
I don't believe I
couple of kind of guides or pointers.

Please let me know if you don't hear or
understand one of my questions, and I will rephrase it or restate it so that you
Page 7 do.
MR. FINNEY:
Heimlich? MR. ZIRM:
Can I help out Dr.
Sure. Doctor, you said -- you I ve
MR. FINNEY:
told me that you have acted as an expert witness in many cases before -THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. FINNEY:
-- and had your deposition
taken in that context.
THE WITNESS:
MR. ZIRM:
Yes. So in other lawsuits
Okay.
in other contexts you've had a similar proceeding where you've been asked questions by lawyers in front of a court reporter? THE WITNESS:
MR.
Yes. The other thing
ZIRM:
Okay.
1'11 ask is that make sure all your responses are verbal responses so the court reporter doesn't have to interpret a nod or a body gesture, she knows whether you
are saying yes or no or anything like that,
okay? THE WITNESS:

Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
k led 0210 /I2008
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Page 8 HENRY HEIMLICH, M. D,

2 of lawful age, as having been duly sworn, was
3 examined and testified as follows: 4
CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. ZIRM:
6 Q
Could I first ask you what, if
7 anything, you've done to prepare for today's
8 deposition?
MR. FINNEY:
You mean other than his
conversations with his attorney? MR. ZIRM:

12
Q
Yes.
Other than -- I don't want to know
13 anything that you've talked to your attorney about.

I've read some of the material that's 15 come across my desk. Okay. And can you describe for me any
17 of the material that you recall reviewing?
18
Oh, I read Kraft's testimony. Okay. I can't remember. Okay.

It will come to me.
Okay.
24 to that testimony --
But you did see
--
in addition
Yeah.
2 came.
Some other stuff I read that
Your counsel handed to me this morning

4 some letters of reference you have written over the
5 years on behalf of Dr. Patrick. 6 those?

I
Did you review
Yes. Okay. Prior to seeing Dr. Patrick this
9 morning, when is the last time you've spoken to Ed
10 Patrick?
11
12 some time ago.
I can't even remember.
It was some --
13
Have you had any conversations with him
14 about this lawsuit that he has brought?

No. We might have mentioned I think
16 the possibility at one time.

17
Okay.
So around -- you think you may
18 have spoken to him around the time the article was

19 published? 20
I really don't recall.
Okay.
And how about Dr. Patrick's
22 lawyers, either of the Mr. Blankenships; have you
23 spoken to them prior to today?
No, I haven't.
Case 1:05-cv-02(91 -LW
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bled UZIU /IZUU8
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I understand you went to Cornell

2 Medical School; is that correct?
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That's correct. And where did you serve your residency,

5 Dr. Heimlich?
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Well, after the war -- I had an That was before
7 internship at Boston City Hospital. 8 I went in to World War 11.
When I came out of the war I was in

10 Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York for a surgical
11 residency, Bellevue Hospital in New York for a
12 surgical residency, and then a hospital in -- it was
13 a city hospital, I can't even remember the name,

14 which was a chest hospital.
It was for tuberculosis
15 and chest diseases, and I had a residency in thoracic
16 surgery there. Now, the internship at Boston City

18 Hospital, how long did that last?
Nine months. And was that in a particular field? It was surgical.

And Mt. Sinai, how long did that
23 residency last?
It was a year and a half.
And that was also surgical?

That was surgical.
How about Bellevue Hospital? That was a year.

5 hospital was a year.
And the other
MR. FINNEY:. Can we just take a break for a minute.
I want to make sure they
don't buzz us in here. MR. ZIRM: Sure. The time is 9:46
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We now leave the video record. (A brief recess was taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 9 : 4 6

We now return to the video record. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number
47 was marked for identification.)
Q
18 document.
Dr. Heimlich, I'm going to hand you a It's a copy of a CV that your counsel has
19 recently provided to me.
I just want to ask you whether this -21 whether this is an accurate CV of yours?
It is, to the best of my knowledge.
You mentioned also the last

24 residency in thoracic surgery?
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I was trying to see whether that

That's
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4 okay.
I do not see that.

Do you recall how long that residency
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6 lasted?
That was a year. Okay.
And you came to Jewish Hospital,
9 according to your CV, in 1969 -10
Yes.
11
-- is that correct?
Correct.
12 13
And when you came, you came as director
14 of surgery?
15 16
Correct. Did you hold any other positions at
17 Jewish Hospital?
18 19 20
21
No. Okay. Yes.
I was on the staff.

And you left in 1977, correct?
And what were your reasons for leaving
22 Jewish Hospital?
23
Well, it was the -- I had had a
Case 1:0b-cv-02 (91 -LW
Document I 19
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1 and then that was renewed and -- it was ready for
2 renewal, and at that point I didn't care any more to
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4 in that position, and I was more interested in doing
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5 more research.
Were there discussions before you left
7 with Jewish Hospital about adapting the position to

8 what you were more interested in doing at that time 9 so you could stay at Jewish Hospital?
I did remain on the staff at Jewish

11 Hospital for several years.
Okay. (Whereupon, Defendants1 Exhibit Numbers 48 and 49 were marked for identification.)
I'm going to hand you two letters that
16 I received yesterday --
MR. ZIRM:
Chris.
And maybe you've seen these,
-- from Health Alliance, the current

20 owner of Jewish Hospital.
And they're a little
21 difficult to read. MR. FINNEY:
Well, is this where I can
be helpful, because she has brought that file now. Would you like to take a minute
and make good copies? assistance to you?
Would that be of
MR. ZIRM:
Yeah.
Maybe let's see
whether -- let's see if we can deal with these, and if we can't, then maybe we'll do that.
MR. FINNEY:
problem.
It's your deposition.
No
Can you read that okay, Dr. Heimlich,
or do you need a better copy?
MR. ZIRM:
That's 48. What number
MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP:
is the CV?
MR. ZIRM:
And the one-page letter
MR. FINNEY:
Can you read that okay, or
do you need a better copy?
THE WITNESS: MR. FINNEY:

better copy?
Q
Just about. Would you like me to get a
We can get you one.
There's only a couple of sentences I'm
(Peruses document.)
Okay.
MR. FINNEY:
Did you see this one as
well, Dr. Heimlich? THE WITNESS: Hold on. This is
terribly hard for me to see. MR. ZIRM: MR. FINNEY :

THE WITNESS:
I understand.
Well, would you -You don't have a
magnifying glass, do you?

MR. FINNEY:
Let me s e e if I can get
the file.
THE WITNESS:
Or it could be read to
me. MR. FINNEY: These are the same
documents provided by The Health Alliance?

MR. ZIRM:
Yes.
The only concern I
have, Chris, is that these two -- there were a couple sheets that had like four pages per sheet, and I'm not quite -- maybe they came off microfiche or not. So I'm not sure your
copy will be that much better, but I'm certainly willing to -THE WITNESS:
MR. FINNEY:
Okay.
I can enlarge it on the
copier. Would that -THE WITNESS:

I can s e e these.
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Page 16 Okay.
2 questions.
I'm going to have just a couple
If you have the one-page letter in front
3 of you that's marked Exhibit 49 at the bottom?
Yeah.
5
Do you recall receiving this letter at
6 that time?
No, I don't.
The letter is from Warren Falberg to

9 you.
Who is Mr. Falberg? Obviously it says president of Jewish
11 Hospital.
12
Okay.
Was he your superior at the time
13 when you were director of surgery?
No.
He was an administrator.
He's indicating in this May 27,
Okay.
1 6 1977 letter, Exhibit 49,
that this is to confirm our
17 conversation of Tuesday, May 24, in which I advised
18 you that we were -- we have selected to not renew

19 your position effective June 30, 1977 as director of
20 surgery.
Yeah.
Do you recall having a conversation
23 with him about that time about the renewal of your
24 contract?
I remember a conversation with him.

2 don't remember what the timing is.
3
Okay.
Do you have any reason to doubt
4 that these letters are not accurate, as far as dates

5 are concerned?
No reason. Okay. So do you recall that
8 approximately June 30/July 1, 1977 is when you

9 stepped down as director of surgery?
That's correct. 11
Q
Okay.
And the other letter which is
12 Exhibit 38, the two-page letter, do you recall this

13 letter?
14
Not really, but I'm sure --
Do you recall any of the subject matter
16 that is described in the letter which appears to talk
17 about what arrangements will be made for the next six 18 months?
19
Q
I recall some of it.
Okay.
And so for a period of time did
21 you maintain an office at Jewish Hospital?

I did.
23
Okay.
And then you maintained -- you
24 stayed on staff for a number of years; is that
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1 correct?
Yes. You can put those two aside, What were your responsibilities
5 regarding the surgical residents at Jewish Hospital 6 while you were director of surgery? 7
8 trained.
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It was to see that they were properly When I was invited to Jewish Hospital the
9 surgical residency was on probation from the
10 authorities.
I forget how long it took, not more

12 than two or three years, when I regained -- by
13 training the residents properly, regained the

14 approval from the authorities to -- for the residency
15 to persist. And so did you have direct contact with

17 each of the surgical residents while you were there?
Oh, yes.
And about how many surgical residents 20 were there each year?
I'm going to -- this would be a guess.

Well, I don't want you to guess, I think they were there for -MR. FINNEY:
If --
He said he doesn't want
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Page 19 \ j you to guess. If you don' t -t
If you can -We're talking how long?

4 I will guess. 30 years ago?
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A guess based on your best

6 recollection?
That's correct. Okay. We -- I'm thinking we went -- it was a

10 four-year program.
11 train a surgeon.
I believe it took four years to

And I'm going to guess that there
12 were between two and four in the first year.
The second year we might have or might

15 not have had a limited one or two.
Same way in the
16 third year.
In the last year we had only one senior
A senior surgeon in the residency
Correct.
Someone who is completing a
21 full four-year residency.
But, again, I -- the numbers are not

24 accurate.
But a fairly small number of new

2 surgical residents every year while you were there? 3 That's what your memory is? 4
I don't know whether it's a small
5 number for surgical residents.
But less than ten every year?
I wouldn't be sure, but very possibly.

Okay.
And were you involved in the
9 selection process of the residents who came to the

10 Jewish Hospital surgical residency program?
Yes. And how were you so involved?
I would interview them.

14 over their records.
I would go
And was there -And I would select them. And who else was involved in that
18 process?
19
Basically it was my responsibility. Okay.
21
I would say that Dr. Margolin, who was
22 the chief of -- director of medicine, who also had
23 his medical residents, we sometimes shared

24 information.
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So there was a surgical residency
2 program and a medicine -- internal medicine residency

3 program while you were at Jewish Hospital?
They were separate. Right. Were there any other residency
6 programs at Jewish while you were there?

7
There were some -- there were --
8 rotating residency was a possibility.

Q
Okay.
And what can you tell me about
10 that? 11
A
That would be a resident who wanted
12 education in medicine -- in general medicine and
13 surgery.
14
Okay.
And would you be involved in
15 interviewing and selecting those residents as well?

Yes. And would Dr. Margolin also be 18 involved? 19
20
If they rotated through surgery.
Okay.
Do you have a recollection that
21 there were residents -- rotating residents at Jewish 22 Hospital while you were there that did not rotate
23 through surgery?
I wouldn't be familiar with that.
It's
1 conceivable, Okay. But if any resident at any time
3 at Jewish Hospital while you were there rotated
4 through surgery, you would have been involved in 5 selecting him as a resident?
Yes. Or her. Was there a similar matching
8 program as there is today with the medical schools

9 for the selection of residents?
What do you mean by matching? Well, you're going to have to help me, 12 and maybe I'm incorrect, but my understanding is that
13 there is now a kind of a national matching program
14 where medical school graduates list their first few

15 choices of residency programs, and there's an 16 organization that matches them up.
17 with that?
Are you familiar
Not at all, Okay. That's not the way it worked
20 when you were at Jewish Hospital? 21
A Q
No. After Jewish Hospital you went to
23 Xavier University at some point, correct?

Yes.
Page 23 1
Q
Was that immediate?
Was there a time
2 period in between that transition?
It was pretty immediate. Okay. Not the next day, but it was quite
6 close to it.
7 8 Xavier?
9
Okay.
And why did you choose to go to
Well, I had been getting offers to
10 various places around the country, as I had always 11 been, and I was considering doing so.
12
And a man -- and I can't mention his
13 name because I don't have his authority to do so -14 met with me and said that he heard I was considering
15 leaving the city, and he has a committee that wants

16 me to stay here.
And he presented several
17 institutions that were interested in having me, and I 18 selected Xavier University.
19
20
Q
A
And what did you do at Xavier? I had the Heimlich -- well, it became It had a different name when
21 the Heimlich Institute.
22 it was founded some years before.
I had the Heimlich
23 Institute, the institute foundation, and I did

24 research and saw some patients.
Page 24
Now, you saw patients at other
2 hospitals during that time?
I mean I saw patients in the office.

I see. 5 practice?
You maintained a private
Yes.
I was limiting it by that stage.
(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number

(2.
I'm handing you a document that's been
10 labeled as Deposition Exhibit 50.
If you could just
11 take a moment and review that document, Dr.
12 Heimlich.
13 questions.
I just, again, have just a couple
14
There's no way I can read this.
If you
15 want to read it to me.

16
Okay.
Well, let me -- the first thing
17 I wanted to ask you about was in the upper right do

18 you see the date of 4-6-78?
MR. FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
Yes.
Is that accurate as to about when you
22 took the position at Xavier?
I hate to -- when you say accurate,

24 when I took it, are you talking by the date, by the
1 year, by the month?

2
Is that a -I have no idea.
Based on your present recollection, did

5 you join Xavier around April of 1978?
Again, it's 30 years ago.
I have no
7 idea.
8
Okay.
But it was shortly after you
9 left your position at Jewish Hospital?
Right. And do you think it was within a year 12 after leaving Jewish Hospital?
I would guess so.

Okay.
I wanted to ask you if you would

Actually,
15 turn to the third page of this document.
16 it starts at the bottom of the second page and

17 continues on to the third page.
There's a discussion
18 of a group called HARP.
Do you want me to --
Youlll have to read that.

20
At the bottom of the second page at the
21.last paragraph --
I 'm down there, yeah.
-- it says:
24 company.
Dr. Heimlich is in good
The three scientists working with him are
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1 also outstanding men, Neil Armstrong, the first man
2 on the moon and now professor of aerospace 3 engineering at the University of Cincinnati; George 4 -- is it Rieveschi?
What? George Rieveschi? Rieveschi.
-- Rieveschi, Ph.D., chemist, and

9 inventor of Benadryl, the first antihistamine, and
10 president of the University of Cincinnati 11 Foundationvs Board of Trustees; and Edward Patrick,
12 M.D.,
Ph.D., professor of electrical engineering at
13 Purdue University, and the foremost authority on
14 computerization in medicine.
15
Informally called HARP, for the first
16 initials of their surnames, the four scientists
17 constitute the Institute of Engineering and Medicine,

18 which utilizes the combined facilities of Xavier
19 University, University of Cincinnati, and Purdue

20 University.
Were you able to follow along with me

2 2 a t all?
Yes.
Okay.
Their research is directed to
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Page 27 1 the development of the aforementioned portable oxygen

2 supply and, eventually, a miniaturized artificial
3 heart-lung substitute that will be implanted in such

4 patients to oxygenate their blood.
Then it lists the
5 entities that have given grants for that research. 6
How long was -- approximately was HARP
7 kind of a working group?
I can tell you how it came about, but I
9 don't recall how long it was a working -- it was a
10 working group at least until I left Jewish Hospital. 11
Okay. It may have continued after that, but
13 I'm not 'sure. I don't recall. Yeah. 15 an Xavier -16
This would indicate -- this is
That's right.
17
-- press release, so it would indicate
18 that maybe it continued at Xavier? That's very possible.

20
And the Institute of Engineering and
21 Medicine, is that a -- is that an organization that

22 continued on for a while as well?
23
Can you read that part for me again. That first full paragraph on page three
1 says:
Informally called HARP, for the first initials
2 of their surnames --
Yeah.
-- the four scientists constitute the
5 Institute of Engineering and Medicine which utilizes
6 the combined facilities of Xavier -Yeah.

8 that?
I don't see that.
Where is
Oh, I see.
MR. FINNEY:
) (Indicating.
Okay.
Yes.
Go ahead.
My question just had to do with this 12 Institute of Engineering and Medicine and whether 13 that was an entity that continued on for a while as 14 well. 15 HARP, 16 Oh, HARP was a very clever name. Was that the same as HARP, different than
17 forget which one of us came through with it, but it
18 was Heimlich, Armstrong, Rieveschi, and Patrick, but 19 we called it actually -- it was really what we called
20 the Institute of Engineering and Medicine.
21
Okay.
And --
Go ahead. This paragraph describes two projects 24 that those groups were working on, portable oxygen
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Page 29 1 supply, and then it mentions a miniaturized

2 artificial heart-lung substitute?
Yes. Were there any other -- well, did those

5 projects come to fruition?
Did that group actually
6 develop a miniaturized artificial heart-lung
7 substitute?
Let me tell you about it. Please do.
10
Neil Armstrong obtained for us two
11 little pumps that were in the uniform of the

12 astronauts, and it maintained the temperature when
13 they left the -- what do you call -- when they went
14 in space. Okay. And they were remarkable in that they

17 took very little power to accomplish this.
And we
18 analyzed it because heart-lung machines that they
19 were developing were known to destroy the red blood

20 cells.
This was a most unusual pump.
It was
22 called a diaphragm pump.
There was a diaphragm in it
23 that just moved back and forth like that 24 (indicating), and in one side it forced the blood out
1 this way at the heart, and the other side, the same
2 thing, moving into the other compartment, forced the
3 blood out through the body.
The study that we did on this pump was

5 to study the destruction of red blood cells, which
6 was occurring in other pumps.
And the study showed
7 that there was very little or very much less
8 destruction of red blood cells than in other pumps.
In addition, there was a tremendous

10 saving of energy, because there was a spring to the
11 diaphragm.
So if you powered it here, the spring
12 would take it back and forth using much less energy 13 than if you had to force move the valve or open and
14 close the valve in the way it was being done.
15 that was the completion of that study.
And where was that study conducted?

17 you recall?
Do
18
At Jewish Hospital. At Jewish? Correct. And did Dr. Patrick participate in that
22 study? 23
Yes. Okay. So this was completed before you
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1 moved to Xavier?
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The other -- again, could you
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Yes.
3 read the other thing.
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The other was the portable oxygen

5 supply.
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This was something that I devised.
4
i
\
7 had noted that patients on oxygen getting it through
8 the nose were struggling to breathe, whenever you
tI
.3
9 would see them in a wheelchair, or you would see them

10 anywhere. 11 And it still is the case. And I realized that it was because they
I
1
! i
12 had to suck the oxygen from here down into their
13 lungs, from their nose down into the lungs with every
14 breath.
I conceived the idea of a very tiny

16 tube which would be put into the windpipe, the 17 trachea.
It had wings on it so that it wouldn't go It would -- just a tiny part would go And when we put it in people, it It
18 down inward.
19 into the trachea.
20 injected the air so they would breathe normally.
21 was quite remarkable.
In addition -Let me just ask a question about that.
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Page 32
1 Where was that developed, that -- I'm sorry.
First
2 question, is that what I've seen referred to as

3 MicroTrach?
MicroTrach. And where was that developed? Well, it was actually inserted in
7 patients at Deaconess Hospital. 8
Q
Okay.
And was Dr. Patrick at all
9 involved in the development of that device?
In some of the initial work, yeah. And how so?

12 involvement was?
Do you recall what his
13
Not really.
No.
The four of us
14 discussed these things.
The concept was mine.
In
15 addition, when the oxygen was given through the nose, 16 half of the oxygen is lost out of the mouth.
17
When it's given through the Heimlich So you save at
18 MicroTrach, it jets into the lung. 19 least half the oxygen.
And that's why this was an
20 oxygen saver. Okay.

22
And it was particularly desirable --
23 women liked it particularly, because you use a much 24 smaller oxygen tank, carried it in a woman's purse.
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Page 33
i
1 The tube ran up under the clothes to here
>
1
, i
I
2 (indicating), where it went into the trachea, and you 3 didn't know she was taking oxygen.
4
'L
i
1
Anything other -- any other projects
5 that HARP worked on developing?

6
7
I would really have to think back. Okay. That's very possible. I remember we
i
a
ii
I think
9 all went to present at a scientific meeting.

10 it was in Boston.
EQ
i
1 I
I'm not sure.
And I forget
1
1
11 whether we presented a great variety of things or one
3
I
12 of these things. Okay. Tell me what you can, what you
14 recall, about the circumstances under which you first

15 met Dr. Patrick.
Well, he must have phoned and made an 17 appointment to come to the office, because I first
18 saw him in the office.
Your office at Jewish Hospital? Yep. Yes.
There have been some media articles in

22 the last few years where you've been asked about your 23 first meeting with Dr. Patrick.
Do you recall that?
Not particularly.
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Page 34
1
I'm going to show you an article from

It's been
2 the Cincinnati Business Courier.
3 previously marked as Exhibit 44 in this case.
You're certainly welcome to read it
5 all, but there's no need to.
I'm going to just ask

If you would
6 you about a very distinct part of it.
7 turn to the fourth page of this article.
Is that the last?

It's the next-to-last page. Let me
10 first ask you, do you recall being interviewed by

11 either Dan Monk or Andrea Tortora of the Business
12 Courier?
I think it was Monk.
Okay.
You recall --
Again, I just -- I don't recall.

16
Do you see on this fourth page there's
17 an indented paragraph with a bullet point -Yes.

-- towards the bottom?
If you could
20 just read that paragraph to yourself and I'll ask you
21 a question.
22 A
(Peruses document.)
Yes.
23
24 says:
And the one sentence in there that
Henry Heimlich told the Courier he hadn't met
1 Patrick until after he published his first paper on
2 the topic in June 1974, referring to the Heimlich

3 maneuver.
Is that accurate what you told Mr. Monk?
Yes.
5 Okay.
And that's your memory today
6 that you met him --
Yes.
-- after you had published your first
9 paper on the Heimlich maneuver?
Yes. And then there's a quote right

12 underneath that, referring to the Heimlich maneuver,
13 that says, quote, The concept is entirely mine, close
14 quote,
Is that an accurate quote?

Yes.
Okay.
And you told Mr. Monk that, if
17 he so interviewed you? 18
Must have been. Okay. You can put that to the side for
20 now, Dr. Heimlich.

21

51 was marked for identification,)
I'm going to show you another document
24 that I've marked as Deposition Exhibit Number 51.
1 This was downloaded from Cornell Alumni Magazine 2 website.

3
It appears to be a letter that you
4 wrote to them, to the Cornell Alumni Magazine that 5 they then published in May or June of 2004, the
6 May/June issue of 2004.
Do you recall writing such a
7 letter?
Yes. Okay.
I haven't read this, so.
I understand.
12 reading -- writing -13 14
15 published --
But you do recall
Writing a letter. Okay. Did you see it after it was
Yes.
-- in the magazine?
Yes. 19
Okay.
Again, I just want to ask you
20 along the same lines, if you go to the third page of 21 this document, and you're essentially responding to 22 something that -- apparently another person had
23 written an article, Brad Herzog, about you.
Do you
24 recall that?
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Page 37 Yes.
Okay.
And you're -- this letter is to
3 respond to some of the things he said in that 4 article, correct?
Yes. And if you could read the third 7 paragraph on page three, the one that says Herzog
8 charges.
If you could read that to yourself, then
9 I'll ask you a question.

A
(Peruses document.)
Yes.
Did you write those words? Yes. And you were responding to a charge 14 that Herzog had made that Dr. Patrick had not been 15 given credit -- enough credit for the development of
16 the Heimlich maneuver; is that correct?
Is that what
17 you're responding to?

I think you would have to give me the
19 exact words of what he said.

20
Okay.
Yeah.
All I have is -- you ' re
21 apparently quoting here Herzog in the first sentence.
Yeah. Herzog charges, quote, that the name
24 given to the doctor's famous maneuver ignores the
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Page 38
1 contribution of one of Heimlich's colleagues, close
2 quote.
And you're clarifying again that you

4 didn't meet Dr. Patrick until after you had developed
5 the Heimlich maneuver, correct?
Yes.
7 8 Heimlich.
You can put that to the side, Dr.

So you met Dr. Patrick when he interviewed
9 for his residency position?
10
Yes. And what was your -- what's your
12 recollection of the type of residency program he was

13 hoping to pursue?
Rotating residency. And do you recall whether that was his

16 idea, or your idea?
I don't recall.
And would you have had some materials,
19 his medical school record, things like that, at the
20 time of the interview?

I'm not sure.
22
Do you recall whether anyone else sat
23 in on the interview with you?
No.
Nobody did.
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Page 3 9
And do you recall about how long before

2 he actually started his residency this interview took
3 place?
No.
I'm not certain. And -I don't
Okay.
That is, in months or weeks. 7 know.

Okay.
You think it was less than six
9 months prior to the start of his residency?
Or whatever it was, the next year.

So it may have been as much as a year
12 before he started his residency?
13
No. Okay.
I don't think so.
I'm talking about the year by date. I see. And we'll look at some records
17 that seem to indicate that his residency started on
18 September 1, 1975.
19
Do you believe -- if that's the date
20 his residency began, do you believe that you met with 21 him for his interview some time in 1 9 7 5 ?
Before? Yes. It was either a very short time
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Page 40
1 before --
Before the residency began? Yeah,

4 recall exactly.
It was -- I would -- I can't
If it was in 1974, it would have
5 been in the fall or later in the month. Did you work with Dr. Patrick in any
7 way or form prior to his beginning of his residency? 8 9 Q
I don't recall that.
It's possible.
Do you recall at the time you
10 interviewed Dr. Patrick for his residency that he was
11 a professor at Purdue? Yes. What do you recall talking -- learning 14 about what he was interested in doing, why he wanted 15 to pursue a residency and become a -- well, why he
16 wanted to pursue a residency at that time?
17
Are you
asking what he learned at the interview?

MR. ZIRM:
Yes.
At the interview.
What was that? 21
I'm just clarifying -- he wanted me to
22 clarify that I'm talking about the time you talked to
I1
23 him at his interview, if you can recall what you

24 learned about why he was pursuing a residency at that
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1 time.
Well, it was most remarkable.

3 tenured professor of engineering at Purdue
He was a
4 University, and he had taken I think some Ph -- of
5 his Ph.D. candidates and they had gone through

6 medical college.
And it was most remarkable.
Today it's recognized that engineering

8 and medicine -- considering the various devices that
9 are existing today, that's not uncommon.
But this
10 was the first instance that I had become aware of 11 someone actually accomplishing this. And you're referring -- the people who
13 had accomplished this were some of his students?
Yes. And was Dr. Patrick telling you that he

16 wanted to do the same thing?
Okay.
What was Dr. Patrick's --
He had --
-- motivation or intent that he

21 expressed to you?
He had already taken his Ph.D. students

23 with him through medical college.
Oh, I see.
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Page 42 And that was a most remarkable

2 accomplishment.
3
Did you talk at all with him at that
4 time during his interview about whether or not he
5 would continue with his duties at Purdue while

6 serving as a resident?
I don't recall talking about that.

Okay.
In your view would it be
9 possible for a resident to continue with teaching 10 duties as a tenured professor?
It depended what the different duties

12 were.
It's certainly possible for any professor in
13 the university to go out and do other things anywhere

14 in the world and retain his position.
15
At the time that you were director of
16 surgery at Jewish Hospital, what was the time
17 commitment of a -- of a basic surgical resident? A surgical resident? Urn-hmm . You mean a resident who wanted to 21 become a surgeon? Correct.
It would be four years .
And how about during -- on a weekly
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Page 43
1 basis, the time commitment during the residency
2 program?
3
You want to know for a surgical -- for
4 a resident who wants to become a surgeon? 5
Yes. Oh, it's -- it was full time.

It was
7 very intensive.
Very intensive. And compared to, say,
9 the rest of the work world that would consider a
10 40-hour week full time, isn't it true that surgical 11 residents are often putting in more than 40 hours a
13
They are now, and I think they may have
14 then.
Okay.
Now, was there a distinction
17 you described before, as far as a time commitment?
Yes. And what was the difference? The difference is that the surgical
21 residents were a hundred percent in surgery,
22 operating with increasing frequency as they
There wasn't really much they could do
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Page 44
1 in the first year.
They were learning the They were
2 postoperative care of these patients.
3 learning how to handle them in an emergency with a
4 gradually increasing responsibility over the

5 four-year period.
6
Okay.
And how about the rotating
7 resident?
A rotating resident -- you want
9 rotating through?
10
Well, what were the types of rotating
11 residencies available at Jewish Hospital while you 12 were there?

13
I don't know those that didn't
14 involve me. Okay. The ones that involved you.
But basically they had the opportunity

17 to see surgical pa.tients who were admitted when they 18 were on the -- rotating through surgery.
They saw
19 them in the emergency room, and they were supervised
20 by attendings, they did examinations of patients when

21 they came in, gave them an idea of the symptoms and 22 so forth of surgical conditions.
They did some observations in the

24 operating room, observed surgery, may have held
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1 retractors in some instances, or basically observed.
Were -They -- when a patient came in, they

4 examined the patient and wrote it -- wrote their
5 examination on the chart.
And the attending and the
6 surgical residents could talk to them about it.
And you would only supervise them while
8 they were rotating through surgery, correct?,
What do you mean, supervise? Well, if a -- my understanding is a
Yes.
For the surgical residents. The resident studying surgery, correct? Correct.
To become surgeons?
Correct. Correct. Yes.
Okay.
Now, when a rotating resident or
2 intern was rotating through surgery, were you

3 responsible for supervising him during that period of
4 time?
I was, but it didn't mean that I
6 necessarily was there to see everything he was
7 doing.
There were attending surgeons for that and
8 residents for that. 9
Sure.
And that would have been true
10 for the residents studying to become surgeons as

11 well, correct?
Well, except that it was a more -1 3 they -- as I say, they were advancing through
14 actually doing surgery over a period of time.
15
Was there a lower expectation of --
16 strike that.
I'll rephrase the question.

Were rotating residents, while they
18 were rotating through surgery, expected or not
19 expected to work as many hours as the surgical
20 residents?
They had surgery --
Let me make
an objection as to whether or not he can answer that, whether there is proper
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Page 47 foundation. I thought he said that he didn't have that type of direct supervision, so I don't know that he would know what the outcome would have been, but if he knows he can answer the question.
Were you aware of the -THE WITNESS:

I -- by the way, I could
not hear that.
If -Could the
court reporter read back for Dr. Heimlich what I said, please. MR. ZIRM: just said.
THE WITNESS:
She's going to read what he
Okay.
(Whereupon, the objection was read back by the court reporter.) MR. ZIRM: question.
20
Let me try and clarify my
We're talking about two different types
21 of residents, surgical residents and rotating

22 residents.
Am I correct in understanding that with
23 regard to the surgical residents you were their
24 supervisor while you were director of surgery?
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Page 48 Again, what do you mean by

2 supervising? When they were in the operating room I
3 went in the operating room?

No.
I mean, that's
--
What then?
6
I mean that ultimately you were
7 responsible for their training; is that correct?
I was -- yes, that's correct. And there were others

--
attendings and
10 others who on a daily basis supervised their

11 training; is that correct?
12
Right. Is that also true for the rotating
13
14 residents while they were rotating through surgery?
Objection.
I'm not even sure what you're asking him.
Is what also true?

Did you understand my question? No.
20
Was there any difference in how
21 rotating residents were supervised while they were

22 rotating through surgery, a difference between them
23 and the surgical residents?
Well, yes.
Okay.
What was that difference?
Well, the surgical residents were

3 supervised when they were operating, for example.
Okay. And they were performing operations. And rotating residents wouldn't be -Would not perform operations.
Okay.
Let's take the example of a
9 first-year surgical resident and a first-year
(Nods head.)
Is there a difference between what they
And what was that difference?
The residents who were studying to be
H o w about
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1 difference?
2
I don't recall whether that could be

The fact is that in a case of Dr.
3 spelled out.
4 Patrick rotating, I never received any complaint that
5 he did not appear when he should.

And would you --
I don't know that he did not follow the

8 work that was done. Can you recall, as you sit here today, 10 any other rotating residents at Jewish Hospital that 11 rotated through surgery? No. Okay.
14 recall as of --
I think Dr. Patrick was unusual.

So he's the only one you can
Yeah.
-- this date?
That I recall.
However, there
18 were rotating residents in general throughout the 19 country -Okay.
-- who had the same experience.

There's a pile of documents here,
23 Dr. Heimlich.
These are exhibits from previous I'm going to refer you to
24 depositions in the case.
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lnumber 45.
Do you see, they're all tabbed.
And if
2 you could look at number 45.

3
Yeah.
This.is a resume dated March 2002 of This one,
5 Dr. Patrick's that has been provided.
6 actually, from a locum tenens organization during

7 discovery in this case.
And I'm just directing your attention 9 to the post-M.D. training category towards the top.
MR. FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
Yes. Do you see that? Yes. And I wanted to ask you about the 15 description of -- on this CV or resume of the years 16 1974 to 1975, if you could read that to yourself. (Peruses document.) And then you see right below that in 19 1975-1976, it says resident one, designed for
20 emergency medicine, Jewish Hospital, Cincinnati,
Yes. Okay. So on this resume Dr. Patrick is
24 stating that his one-year residency was 1975 to 1976,
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1 and that the year before that, 1974 to 1975, one of

2 the things he was doing was research in emergency
3 medicine with Dr. Henry J. Heimlich, providing the
4 model for a new method for treating choking and
5 drowning which has become known as the Heimlich

6 maneuver.
Is that accurate? Well, let's first take research in

9 emergency medicine with Dr. Henry Heimlich.
Was he doing that the year before his

11 residency began?
This was
13 residency in 1975.
--
well, he began his
Correct. So that -- (peruses document.)

16 don't remember at what time he did it, but he came up
17 with, at one point, with an interesting -- engineer's

18 -- engineering evaluation of the Heimlich maneuver.
19 I don't remember when that was.
But your testimony is you first met him

21 when he came for his interview for his residency
22 program, correct?
That -- well, yes, but --
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That's correct. And my question is -MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP :
I think he I think he
was trying to finish his answer.
was trying to finish his answer and you didn't let him finish. MR. ZIRM: correct.
Q
I thought he said that's
I'm just confirming that you met him
10 when he came for his residency interview, correct?
Correct. Was there a time period before he began

13 his residency that he was conducting research with
14 you in emergency medicine?
No. Okay. Was there a time period

--
Excuse me.
I don't recall between that
18 time when he came to see me and when he started his
19 residency whether we had contact or not.
I just have
20 no recollection of that.
21
Q
Okay.
And your best recollection of
22 that time period is a few months?
It could have been six or eight months. Okay. But you have no recollection of
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Page 54 :
J
1 him performing research with you in that

2 six-to-eight-month period before he started his
. I
1
i
i
3 residency? MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: Objection.
?
1
think that mischaracterizes his testimony. He said he doesn't recall whether or not there was any contact. MR. ZIRM: That's why I asked if he has
1
4
1
j
L
no recollection. 10 11 12 13 14 15
16
17
1 ;
Is that correct? THE WITNESS: MR. ZIRM: What is that?
i
3
I
{
I'll ask her to read back my
last question, if you would. THE COURT REPORTER: Question: But you
.it
! ?
E!
I
have no recollection of him performing research with you in that six-to-eight-month period before he started his residency? That's correct. And the second -- we were breaking down He states in this resume as part of
! t
i
I
1 6
t !
3 i
18 19
5
I
2 0 that sentence.
I
!
4
21 his description of what he was doing in 1974 to 1975 22 about providing the model for a new method for 23 treating choking and drowning, which has become known
24 as the Heimlich maneuver.
j
1
j
li
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Page 55 Is that accurate, to your recollection?
I don't recall that in that time

3 period. Okay. And you have been quoted in the
5 press as saying that the Heimlich maneuver was 6 entirely your concept, correct?
7
8
Yes.
What about the second sentence that
9 says he developed the framework for the first outcome

10 analysis, choking and drowning, eventually used by
11 Surgeon General Koop to declare the back slap lethal
12 and the Heimlich maneuver the treatment for choking. 13 Do you recall him doing that in this
14 period 1974 to 1975? 15
Dr. Patrick had I believe in one of
16 the -- had come up with an idea on his first outcome

17 analysis.
Okay.
I don't know what he did with that in

20 that period.
21
Okay.
Do you have any recollection as
22 you sit here today of working with Dr. Patrick in any 23 regard prior to him commencing his residency?
I can't recall any.
But that does not
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1 mean that we didn't talk something about that.
2 just have no recollection of that at all.
And I'm asking about -- not necessarily
4 whether you had discussions with him about it, but

5 whether you actually engaged or recall him engaging
6 in research with you in the year before he began his
7 residency, or at any time before he began his

8 residency.
Well, research includes discussing

10 things with people about a subject.
Okay.
12 discussions?
So you may or may not have had
You don't recall?
I don't recall.
MR. ZIRM: Why don't we take a short
break, Dr. Heimlich, if that's okay with you . Is that okay, Chris? MR. FINNEY: Sure. The time is 10:49
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We now leave the video record.

(A brief recess was taken.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
The time is 11:04
We now return to the video record.
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Dr. Heimlich, I'm going to put another
2 document in front of you which has been marked 3 Deposition Exhibit 52.
This is another resume of Dr.
4 Patrick's.
And, again, I want to at least at this
5 point direct you to that time period in 1974-1975.
Do you see where it says under
7 postgraduate medical education, research in emergency

8 medicine Purdue University and University of
9 Cincinnati with Dr. Henry J. Heimlich 1974-1975?
Yes. Are you familiar with what that refers
No.
I don't quite recall it.
Were you doing any research yourself at

15 the University of Cincinnati in that time period?
Well, I was -- in keeping with my
17 appointment at Jewish Hospital, I was associate

18 clinical professor of surgery at University of
19 Cincinnati, and my residents attended surgical

20 conferences there and I lectured occasionally.
Did you ever conduct any research in

22 emergency medicine at University of Cincinnati?
Again, it depends on what you want to

24 define as research.
I did speak on the Heimlich
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1 maneuver.
You spoke on the Heimlich maneuver at
3 the University of Cincinnati?
When -- at a conference when something

5 would come up to discuss and -- among other things.
Did you do any of your research which

7 led to your initial paper article about the Heimlich
8 maneuver at the University of Cincinnati?
No.
I can only say that I was
10 associate clinical professor there when I was doing
11 the research, so I may have talked it over with

12 people there.
Okay.
I'm not sure.
And my residents, some
15 of them attended the -- what were -- took part of 16 their training there.
Took part of their training at the

18 University of Cincinnati?
Yeah. And what part of that training would

21 they have received at the University of Cincinnati?
I think it was mostly in the emergency

23 room.
I don't recall definitely that that was it,
24 solely it.
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Would they actually work in the
2 emergency room at --
Yes.
4 5 Hospital?
-- the University of Cincinnati
Yes. And do you recall who would supervise

8 them while they were working in the emergency room at 9 the University of Cincinnati Hospital?
It would be residents and attendings. To your knowledge, in the time period

12 before Dr. Patrick started his residency, was he 13 doing any research at Purdue that you were utilizing
14 with regard to the Heimlich maneuver?
I don't recall any, but I don't know

16 that there wasn't any.
You can put that document to the side. (Whereupon, Defendants1 Exhibit Number
Let me hand you what I've marked as 21 Deposition Exhibit 53. Again, this is another resume
22 that Dr. Patrick has provided to us in discovery in
23 this case.
And, again, I want to just direct your Can
24 attention for now to that 1974-1975 time period.
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1 you read that -- do you see that?

2
3
Yes. Okay. Where it says: Research in
4 emergency medicine with Dr. Henry J. Heimlich,
5 leading to development of Heimlich maneuver and

6 MicroTrach.
Is that accurate, to your recollection? Well, I don't know what leading to
8 development means.
In your view was Dr. Patrick doing
10 research that led to the development of either the

11 Heimlich maneuver or the MicroTrach?
MR. FINNEY:
I'm sorry.
Are you asking
ever, or during this -MR. ZIRM:
No.
During this time Thank you.
period.
I'm sorry.
Again, I don' t know what leading to
17 development means.
In your understanding -In other words, the Heimlich maneuver 20 existed.

I know eventually he did some studies which
21 were published.
22 being spoken of.
I don't know whether that's what's
23
And the studies you have knowledge of
24 that Dr. Patrick did were after the Heimlich maneuver
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Page 61 1 was -- after it existed, as you just said? Oh, absolutely. Okay. How about the MicroTrach; did
4 Dr. Patrick, during this time period before his 5 residency, do research that led to the development of 6 the MicroTrach?
7 8 discovery.
Well, again, the MicroTrach was my
Okay. And we worked on it in the HARP group. 11 So, again, I don't know what leading to the 12 development means. Let's clarify that. Let's say -- let's
14 ask the question either before it existed or after it 15 existed, the MicroTrach.
16
Do you recall Dr. Patrick doing
17 research regarding the MicroTrach before it existed,

18 before it --
When you say before it existed, do you

20 mean before it was out and used?
Yes. Yes. That's what we were doing.
23 was my concept and we worked on it and discussed it
24 in the HARP group.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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t
Page 62 :
I?
1
2 to that?
3
And what was Dr. Patrick's contribution
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It's hard to say, because we all were
4 talking about it.
Do you recall whether Dr. Patrick --
2
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6 whether the HARP group had been formed before Dr.
7 Patrick began his residency?

8
Well, it wasn't HARP then, because
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9 Patrick was not there.
10 11
Okay.
t!
It was Heimlich, Armstrong, and Originally it was Armstrong and I, and
12 Rieveschi.
13 then I brought in Rieveschi, and then Patrick came
Do you recall whether there was work

16 done on MicroTrach before Dr. Patrick joined the
I don't recall.
I should say my work
19 was done on it before that, yes. Okay. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number
Handing you what's been marked as

24 Exhibit 54.
If you would take a minute and review
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 63 of 267
Page 63 1 that, and 1'11 ask you a few questions.
.
I
(Peruses document.) Dr. Heimlich, have you ever seen this

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4 press release before?
5 6
No. Has the -- there's a statement on the
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No.
Not to my recollection.
$
5
Okay.
The fourth paragraph on the
10 first page where it says:
I have always viewed that
11 Dr. Heimlich and I worked together to develop what
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13 the Wright brothers worked together to develop the
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18 19
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Okay.
Based on your understanding of
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I
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 adapted, if it means -- if that's what it means to
2 develop, the answer is no.
Okay. If it means that later on, several
5 years later, we did some work together regarding

6 choking and the maneuver, that is accurate.

Handing you what I've marked as
10 Deposition Exhibit 55.
MR. FINNEY: release?
What was the press
Was that 54? Yes.
MR. ZIRM:
The only thing you need to read on

15 this, Dr. Heimlich, is the right-hand column on the
16 first page, and it continues with one more paragraph 17 on the second page regarding Dr. Patrick.
(Peruses document.) It continues on the bottom left column

20 on the second page.
On the second page?
Yeah.
Just the --
I see that. You saw that? Okay. You've had a
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 65 of 267
Page 65
1 chance to finish that article about Dr. Patrick?
I'm sorry?
You've had a chance to read that 4 article about Dr. Patrick? 5
This article? Yes. I don't recall it. But just now you finished reading it? Oh, yeah. Okay. Do you recall this -- 1'11 call
11 it a newsletter.
Do you recall this publication
12 while you were at Jewish? No. Okay. This one is dated June 12, 1975,
15 and it seems to be announcing that Dr. Patrick is 16 joining Jewish Hospital on a part-time basis to
17 develop a research program in the area of biomedical

18 engineering.
Were you aware of Dr. Patrick's

20 position in that regard at Jewish Hospital?
21
I recall it.
As I said before, it was
22 most unusual to have a tenured professor of

23 engineering available to carry out engineering
24 efforts that would benefit the hospital.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 6 6
1
Do you recall when you interviewed

4
2 Dr. Patrick for his residency whether he had this

3 position with the hospital already?
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Yes. No, he did not. Okay. Do you recall whether he
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9 during his residency?
10
Again, I don't recall absolutely, but I
11 believe it was so. You believe that it was so? (Nods head. ) Okay. In your mind would it have been
15 unusual for a first-year resident to also have a
16 part-time position of another kind within the 17 hospital? Oh, absolutely. Particularly in this
19 instance he was doing some very interesting research
20 based on his computer knowledge and computer 21 applications in medicine, as it says here, which is 22 biomedical engineering.
Did you have any role in Dr. Patrick

24 obtaining this position with -- the computer
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 diagnostic position with the hospital?
I'm quite sure -- well, as much as I
3 was responsible partially for his presence, the
4 answer would be yes.
I was not personally involved or

6 interested in the care of the cardiac patients, for
7 example.
That was under Dr. Margolin's direction. Okay. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number

Handing you, Dr. Heimlich, what's been 12 marked as Deposition Exhibit 56.
13 take a moment to review this memo.
If you will just
14
(Peruses document.) You've had a chance to review this? Yes. The first question is, the memo is from
18 an N.S. Finer?
Yes. If you recall, who was that? He was something in the

22 administration.
He was not the president
23 administrator, but as I recall he was someone in the

24 administration.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 68 Somebody under Mr. Falberg?
1i
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I'm going to say yes, I think so.

3 Q
Okay.
Did you have any reporting
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5 responsibilities over you while you were at Jewish
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I can't say he had any position over
8 me.
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Okay.
And the memo is to a Mr. H.R.
Do you recall who that was?
I donft recall that.

And the subject of this memo is 13 remodeling of the surgical teaching unit to
14 accommodate Dr. Patrick for an office and his
15 secretary.
Do you recall that?
I do recall it somewhat now.

Okay. Yes. And do you recall at some point
20 Dr. Patrick having an office at Jewish Hospital with
21 a secretary?
Yes.
I think this documents the fact
23 that he was there before he attained his residency.
Right.
Now that you've seen -- now
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 69 1 that you've seen this document, that refreshes your

2 recollection about that?
Vaguely, yes. Okay.

5 this memo?
And you were apparently cc'd on
Yes . Do you remember receiving this memo?
I don't.
Do you remember having any discussions 10 with either Mr. Finer or Mr. Wass about the subject
11 of the memo?
I'm sure I did, but I don't recall any.

Do you recall whether Dr. Patrick 14 maintained this office while he was serving his
15 residency?
16
17
I don't recall.
Okay.
It is possible.
Do you recall participating in
18 any interviews of Dr. Patrick with regard to this 19 computer position at the hospital as opposed to your
20 interview with him for the residency position? No.
That would have been carried out
22 by those involved in that type of -- in that subject.
23
Do you recall Dr. Patrick having a
24 grant from the National Science Foundation to support
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 70
1 his activities?
Again, that does
3 not mean it didn't occur.
I understand.
As I have been learning
5 about your profession through this lawsuit, I've seen 6 that different terms are sometimes used for residency 7 programs.
Sometimes a term what I would consider a
8 residency is called an internship, or a part of a 9 residency is called an internship.
In your understanding or during your 11 time at Jewish Hospital, was there a differentiation
12 made between an internship and a residency?
13
When I got out of medical college I had
14 an internship.
Okay.
That was usual.
I didn't progress to
17 my residency until after I came back from the war.

18 don't know if the term "internship" was used at that
19 time -- at this time or not.
20
And when you came out of medical
21 college, what was the difference between the 22 internship and the residency? 23
A
Well, basically the internship was the
24 first year, and then you became a resident.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Okay. And you c o u l d t a k e a n i n t e r n s h i p i n a

3 specialty o r i n general.
And a t t h a t t i m e when you were g o i n g
5 t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s , were t h e r e some p h y s i c i a n s o f
6 which you were a w a r e t h a t would n o t go from a --
7 would j u s t f i n i s h a n i n t e r n s h i p a n d t h e n n o t g o o n t o
8 a residency?
I s u p p o s e some c o u l d ,
f o r one reason o r
10 another.
I -- i f t h a t ' s a l l t h e y n e e d e d .
11
I f you wanted t o p u r s u e s u r g e r y c o u l d
1 2 you d o t h a t ?
I f you -Wanted t o become a s u r g e o n c o u l d you

1 5 s t o p a f t e r t h e i n t e r n s h i p , o r d i d you n e e d t o
1 6 c o n t i n u e on t o a s u r g i c a l r e s i d e n c y ?
You s a y i f you -- s a y t h a t a g a i n .
18
I f y o u r g o a l was t o become a s u r g e o n ,
1 9 c o u l d you become a s u r g e o n w i t h j u s t t h e o n e y e a r o f 20 i n t e r n s h i p ?
21
A
No. You h a d t o t h e n go on a n d c o m p l e t e a
2 3 surgical r e s i d e n c y ?
24
A l t h o u g h , g o i n g b a c k y e a r s t h a t may
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 72 1i
1
1 have been possible.

Q
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7 Dr. Patrick's rotating residency, we have been

8 calling it a residency, not an internship.
9 that --
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Do you recall ever having any
15 discussions with Dr. Patrick about continuing in a

16 residency after that rotating one-year residency was
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It might have been.
We might have
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20
You don't have any specific
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22 23 not have.
24
No.
I didn't -- we may have, we may
I'm not sure.

And you testified earlier that when you
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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 73
1 got to Jewish Hospital the residency -- at least the

2 surgical residency program was on probation, I think 3 is the term you used?
That's correct. And probation from who?

6
By who?
It was a surgical organization.
7 forget what it was, who determines, who approves or

8 disapproves of surgical residencies.
Okay.
And is it your understanding
10 that that's true of any residency program, that it is
11 approved or disapproved by some organization? 12 That's how it was then.
I don't know
13 that it is now. 14
Okay.
And would that have been true of Would that have had to have It would
15 a rotating residency?
16 been approved or disapproved -- I'm sorry.
17 have had to have been approved by some organization? I don't know that that was done. Okay. Do you know whether it was
20 supposed to have been done?

21
No, I don't.
It would be unusual to
22 have an organization like that unless -- I just would

23 have to say I know of no restriction of that type.
24
Q
I'm going to ask you to take a look at
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 one of the previous exhibits.
It's Number 35.
Dr.
2 Heimlich, this is a document that was provided by 3 Health Alliance, or Jewish Hospital, in response to a
4 subpoena to them.
It appears to be a copy of Dr.
5 Patrick's application for appointment to house

6 staff.
Does this document look -- not this
8 particular document, but are you familiar with this
9 application form from the time you were at Jewish

10 Hospital?
I certainly wouldn't recall it.

Okay. Probably just the year. Okay. What's house staff?
House staff, residents, and if there 16 are interns, interns. Do you recall whether you gave any
18 assistance to Dr. Patrick in filling out this
19 application?
I don't recall doing so.
You certainly would have seen this

22 application before accepting Dr. Patrick in to the 23 residency program?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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You may not have?

I don't recall.
Would you expect that you -- I think

4 you testified that the decision of whether to accept 5 a residency -- a resident in to the surgical
6 residency program would have been your decision,
7 correct?
Yes. Would you expect if it was a surgical

10 residency application that you would see that before
11 a resident is admitted into the program at Jewish 12 Hospital?
Forgive me
for interrupting. You're asking -- when you say would you see that, you're again referring back to the application form?
MR. ZIRM:
The application form.
Correct.
I may have seen this or I might have

20 gotten other indications of these -- of the facts
21 that are in here.
Okay.
On the second page at the very
23 bottom there is some handwriting, and I'm going to
24 read it out loud, see if you agree with me.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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As I read it, it says:
Okay for
2 flexible program, parentheses, four months medicine,

3 four months surgery, plus anesthesia, ER, X-ray,
4 close parentheses, starting August 1975. Does that agree with your reading of
Yes. And there's some initials.

9 whose initials those are?
Do you know
It looks like Dr. Margolin. And his initials are E.G.M.; is that 12 correct?
I believe his first name is Gordon.
Okay. 15 initials?
But you believe those are his
Well, that looks to be. Okay.
I can't promise that.

I understand.
And this is -- the date
20 next to D r . Patrick's signature is August 22, 1975. 21 Do you see that? Yes. Didn't most residents start earlier in 24 the year?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 77 1
Residents start when they're accepted You don't -- if you wanted a resident
2 and come in.
3 and you were going to assign them, it doesn't matter
4 what -- when they came in during the year.
They could start at any time? Obviously. There wasn't a normal or traditional
8 starting and end date for a resident year?
9
Well, if you had, say, a surgical
10 resident, a real surgical resident, you would
11 obviously not take him in until the senior had left. 12 So they would use -- I would say come in at a
13 specific time of the year.
14
Q
A
Okay. However, it was possible that one could
15
16 come in in July, one could come in in January, or
17 whatever.
18
Do you have any recollection that --
19 we've seen a document that would indicate they were

20 preparing an office for him in June or July of '75.
21
Do you have any specific recollection
22 why he was applying for a residency or at least
I.
23 filling out the application in late August? MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: Objection.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
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Page 78 of 267
think you're asking him to speculate. But if you know the answer, Doctor, you may. You'll have to repeat it.
MR.
ZIRM:
I'll ask her to read it
back.
THE COURT REPORTER:
Question:
Do you
have any recollection that -- we've seen a document that would indicate they were preparing an office for him in June or July
Do you have any specific recollection why he was applying for a residency or at least filling out the application in late August ?
MR.
FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
Yeah.
Your counsel has correctly
18 pointed you to Exhibit 56, which is the memo July
July 7, ' 7 5 . Right. And we see that his application
22 for house staff is in August, end of August 1975. That's correct. Do you have any recollection of why he
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 was applying for the residency program a few months,
2 apparently, after he had joined the staff in his 3 computer position?
I would say because he wanted to, as he

5 eventually did, become qualified in emergency.
6 medicine, and therefore wanted clinical experience.
Do you -That's a -- that's a guess, but it's a
9 possibility.
8
Okay.
Do you recall having --
Pardon? I'm sorry.

13
Go ahead.
That may be the time he decided he
14 wanted to become a resident.

Okay .'
MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP :
Ken, I need
to ask you a question about this exhibit. didn't catch this the first time you used the exhibit, but I just have to notice they're Bates stamped Jewish Hospital page four and Jewish Hospital page 279. MR. ZIRM: Right. Any idea why
MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: there's --
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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!
Page 80 i +
5
MR. ZIRM:
Yes.
1
- - so many
MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: pages in between?

MR. ZIRM:
Yes.
When we initially got
i
k
the batch of documents from The Health Alliance, there was only the first page. And I subsequently contacted them and said it looks like there's a second page, is it in the file.
10
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i
1
And so after we had already Bates stamped the first batch, it came separately later.
So Jewish has
documented for you that these two pages go together? MR. ZIRM: Yes. And I can -- I'm
pretty sure there's correspondence between me and Gary Harris that I can provide for you that indicates that.
That's fine.
Dr. Heimlich, I guess I'll just follow

22 up by asking whether you recall -- you indicated that
23 that might have been a reason.
Do you recall having a conversation
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 with Dr. Patrick about why he was applying for the
2 residency at that time?

3
I think it's very likely that I did.
Okay.
But not sure today?
Well, it's 30 years ago. No specific recollection today? It's 30 years later. I understand. MR. ZIRM: at 36. (Peruses document. ) MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: I haven't You can turn one more.
I'm going to ask him to look
seen Dr. Heimlich move past that first page, so I don't know if he understands --
MR. ZIRM:
MR.
Oh.
JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP :
-- that you
want him to look at the whole thing. MR. ZIRM: I'm sorry.
If you could just take a review of -20 there's a number of pages to this exhibit.
If you
21 could -22
MR. FINNEY:
This will take a while to
read.
What is it specifically you're going
to ask him about?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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MR. ZIRM:
I would like him to
specifically read the third page that's entitled supplement to residency agreement. Thanks, Chris. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Zirm, may we go
briefly off the record to put in a fresh videotape?

MR. ZIRM:
Sure. The time is 11:44
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: a.m.
We now leave the video record. (A brief recess was taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:47
a.m.
We now return to the video record. Dr. Heimlich, have you had a chance to
15 review that page, the supplement to residency 16 agreement page? Yes. This appears to be a description of the
19 rotating residency that Dr. Patrick was going to 20 undertake that year; is that correct?
Do you recall discussing this with

23 Norman Finer and Gordon Margolin?
I 'm sure I did.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 83
1
Okay.
Is it fair to say that you had
2 to approve of this rotating residency?
That what?
4
That you had to -- your approval was
5 required?
It appears to be. And is that because part of the

8 rotation was going to be in surgery?
Yes. Directing your attention to the -- to
11 how the months are broken down, it says four months

12 in internal medicine, four months in surgery, and
13 then one month in anesthesiology, radiology, 14 emergency room, and an elective.
And my question is about those last

16 four one-month periods.
Do you recall who would have
17 been Dr. Patrick's supervisor during that period of

18 time?
19
Whoever was the head of those
20 departments.
21
Okay.
Would you have had any
22 supervisory responsibilities for him during those -23 that part of the rotation?
24
Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Let me just
call your attention to the fact that you mentioned this is a duplicate? MR. ZIRM: Yes. Actually, the
second duplicate has changes that are not noted on the first page. MR. ZIRM: Okay. And, in fact,
emergency room has changed to two months.
It appears on my copy, anyway.

MR. ZIRM: rough draft? MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP : to page 0011. MR. ZIRM: for the record. MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: MR. ZIRM: Thank you. Okay. Well, let's clarify I'm referring You're referring to the
Exhibit 36 is a six-page
document, a cover letter from Robert Carney to Edward Patrick which is Bates stamped Jewish Hospital 0007.
The second page is a residency
agreement, unsigned, but apparently for
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 85 Edward Patrick, which is Jewish Hospital
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The third page is supplement to residency agreement, unsigned, 00 -- Jewish Hospital 009. Another supplement to residency agreement, appears to be the same, but I
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won't vouch for that, Jewish Hospital 0010, and then another, which at the top is titled rough draft supplement to residency agreement, Jewish Hospital 0011. And finally with an apparently Jewish Hospital -- it says Jewish Hospital house staff 1975-1976 which is Jewish Hospital
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MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP :
Which page
are you referring to when you asked Dr. Heimlich the questions that you're talking about right now?
MR. ZIRM:
I'm referring to the Bates
stamp page Jewish Hospital 009.

Thank you.
Is that the one you have, Dr.

24 Heimlich?
Do you see the Bates stamp on it?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 86
4
MR. FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
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Dr. Patrick requests that his

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13 assignment be primarily in surgery and in surgical
14 subspecialties.
15 16
Do you see where I am?
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17 in the above rotations, only the four months of 18 medicine will be the direct responsibility of Dr. 19 Gordon Margolin. 20 21 says. 22 And what would -- when it refers to
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Anesthesiology, emergency room, and
2 possibly the elective.

Would you have considered this a
4 surgical residency year?
This is a rotating residency through

6 surgery.
And then the beginning of the Dr. Patrick understands
He might be able to take
Are residents assigned times when
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 88 They are. Yes.
And was it your understanding or

3 recollection that Dr. Patrick would have the same 4 number of assigned hours as all of his peers?
I don't know, but not necessarily.

And why would that be?
Because his peers might be carrying out
8 surgical activities that are not within his 9 responsibility.
Okay. But I think it's pretty evident that

12 there's another factor, which is that his position in 13 engineering gave him some tasks in the hospital that
14 were very beneficial to the hospital, as well as to

15 the patients.
And I wanted to ask you about that. 17 we go to the last paragraph, it says:
If
Dr. Patrick is
18 also anticipating continuing his eight-hour-per-week
19 job as physician in charge of clinical computing, and 20 eight hours with HARP program.
It is anticipated that he will have

22 adequate hours outside of the required hospital
23 duties and the flexible program so that he can easily 24 carry the second position to the satisfaction of
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 himself and to the hospital. So he was expected to carry on 16 hours
3 of work every week in these other two positions,

4 correct?
That's what it says. But it -- tell me if I'm wrong. It
7 does not look like he is being given less duties as a

8 resident to accommodate that.
Again, if you're comparing it to a

10 surgical resident who has to do surgery and provide
11 certain -- his experience to the care of patients,
12 that cannot be expected of someone who is rotating 13 through surgery.
Correct.
So there is a difference.
Was it your understanding that Dr.

17 Patrick was required to be at the hospital as a 18 resident for fewer hours than the other first-year
19 residents?
Whatever he was required to do

21 apparently was done.
Because I can remember no
22 challenge or complaint in regard to that factor

23 throughout his stay there.
And I believe --
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And apparently Dr. Margolin, who signed
2 his diploma, I believe a separate diploma as well, 3 had the same experience.
And I believe you testified earlier
5 that he's the only rotating resident you recall
6 during your tenure at Jewish Hospital?

7
That s correct. Do you recall any other resident having
9 a 16-hour part-time job during his residency while

10 you were at Jewish Hospital?
This was work within the hospital that

12 was important to the hospital and to the patients.
Okay. And, again, we're dealing with someone

15 who was very special, who was a tenured professor of
16 engineering at Purdue University and brought this 17 knowledge to the hospital that was beyond the
18 knowledge of anybody else in the hospital.
And with
19 that, he was also exposed to the clinical work which

20 gave him other experiences.
And do you recall any other resident
22 that had a similar situation, similar schedule where

23 he maintained part-time work of any kind while he was 24 a first-year resident?
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Page 91 j
I
He was the only resident who was a

2 tenured professor of surgery and can provide very
5
t
$
< .
?
3 valuable experience to the care of the patients and
I2
$
4 to the hospital.
9 t
So by that is your answer no, you don't
.I:
6 recall any other residents?
1
$!
The answer is that there was no one I
8 know who was a tenured professor of engineering at

9 Purdue University who was a resident.
10
And do you know of any other residents
11 while you were there that had a commitment to another

12 endeavor of 16 hours a week while they were a
13 firstLyear resident?
14
I didn't know the -- all the residents
15 who were there.

16
Given that you didn't -Right.
17
18
-- and I understand that.
Of the
19 residents you knew, were there any that had any kind
20 of similar outside or other commitments?

21
The residents I knew were surgical
22 residents who had full-time duties there.
There
23 could have been residents in other services that had 24 part-time duties elsewhere.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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-
Okay.
The cover letter in this
2 exhibit, the first page, is from Robert Carney,

3 executive director.
4
5 house staff?
What was his role with regard to the
He was the -- well, basically the

7 executive director.
And he was responsible for
--
8 would -- I would say for any arrangements that were

9 made that involved the hospital.
And when you say -- and I guess maybe

11 that's part of what I don't know. Executive director
12 of what?
Executive director of Jewish Hospital? Jewish Hospital. Was he particularly -- did he have
15 particular responsibilities for the graduate medical

16 education programs?
He had the responsibilities in regard

18 to the agreement that was signed.
The residency agreement? Correct.

The first paragraph of that letter
22 indicates that they're offering this position -23 appointing Dr. Patrick to this flexible resident one
24 position.
And it says:
As recommended by Dr. E.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 Gordon Margolin, chairman, committee on house staff

2 and education, after consultation with the executive 3 board of the medical staff.
Were you on the executive board of the

5 medical staff?
Yes.
Okay.
So it was approved -- it was
8 recommended by Dr. Margolin after consulting with you

9 and who else at that time, do you recall, was on the
10 executive board of the medical staff?
Who else was on it? If you recall. Well, there were some people who were
14 appointed or elected.
Were they all physicians at the
16 hospital, staff physicians at the hospital?
And do you recall how many of them

19 there were, the executive board of the medical staff?
I could guess ten or -Okay. But that's a guess number. Do you have any recollection of
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 94
1 rotating residency?
Obviously I did, because as it says
3 here, Dr. Margolin, since he was chairman of the
4 committee on house staff and education, and who

5 consulted with the executive board, which included
6 me, and the medical staff, which included me, we 7 surely had discussion.
Okay.
And knowing that it's 30 years
Very vaguely. And can you tell me what your vague 13 recollection is? Just that we -- obviously we discussed
15 Dr. Patrick as a resident and agreed it should be
Do you recall any members of the 18 executive board of the medical staff raising concerns
19 with this kind of arrangement?

21
Okay.
What was your role in
22 supervising Dr. Patrick during this rotating
23 residency? In regard to his residency?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Yes. Well, when he was on surgery I received

3 evaluations of his work.
Anything else?
I worked with him on the projects we

6 were involved in.
And just to clarify, the projects Is that what you're
8 outside of his residency duties?
Yes.
But within the hospital.
I don't recall.
He would not have been
Okay.
What would he have likely done
Um-hmm . He would have examined patients coming
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 program, remember.
As he rotated through different
2 services, he would learn what is done in those

3 specialties. 4
Would you have expected him to have
5 worked with the chief surgical resident during that

6 time period while he was rotating through surgery?
Depends what you mean by worked with
Would he -He would have contact with him. And how so? Would there be formal
12 contact between the chief surgical resident and the

13 residents that are in surgery at the time?
There would be more contact, I would

15 think, with the first-year residents who were doing
16 similar care for the patients.
You mentioned that you would have

18 received evaluations of his work, of Dr. Patrick's
Yes.
Would those have been written
22 evaluations?
Possibly.
2 4 remember
Either way.
I can only
-- I can
--
well, I can remember the fact
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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I
Page 97 2 1 there was never a question about the evaluation of

2 his work.
.I
:
1 ,
3
1
And I'm not really asking about that.

4 I'm asking about the procedure, whether written 5 evaluations were given -- let's take Dr. Patrick away
!
I
-4
6 from the equation and let's talk about the surgical

7 residents for whom you had responsibility.
8
i 4. 'i
J
; I
I;
Would there be written evaluations done
5
;i
9 on a periodic basis of your surgical residents? 10 11

12
I don't recall. MR. FINNEY: THE WITNESS: (Indicating. )
I
ti
By the way, I think I've
13 14
15
had enough.
It's time to take a break. Well, that's fine, Dr.
MR. ZIRM:
Heimlich.
I
*
I've spoken with your counsel and
! I
16 17
18
he indicates that he wanted to stop at noon, and I'm happy to accommodate you. As we've discussed, we will do our best to reschedule.
~1
J
[ !
. ;a
5
19 20
21
22
23 24
We are coming back to
;
1
i'
i
t
5
Cincinnati for other depositions in the case, and I will work through your counsel to schedule a continuation so we can finish Thank you for your time. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1 2 : 0 6
7 I
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i t
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p.m.
We now leave the video record.

(Deposition adjourned at 1 2 : 0 6 p.m.)
(Signature not waived.)
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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I have read the foregoing transcript from page

1 through 99 and note the following corrections:
PAGE
LINE
REQUESTED CHANGE
Henry Heimlich, M.D. Subscribed and sworn t o before me this day
Notary Public
M y commission expires:
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 1 0 1
1 r e s u l t of t h e a c t i o n .
2
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I h e r e u n t o s e t m y hand
3 and o f f i c i a l s e a l o f o f f i c e a t C i n c i n n a t i , Ohio, t h i s
4 3 0 t h d a y o f March, 2 0 0 7 .
8 M y Commission E x p i r e s :
9 A p r i l 1 3 , 2011
Renee Rogers
Notary P u b l i c - S t a t e
o f Ohio
10
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 102
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO EASTERN DIVISION
EDWARD PATRICK,
Plaintiff,
: CASE NO, 05-CV-2792
CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC, :
VOLUME I1
et al.,
Defendants.
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
HENRY HEIMLICH, M . D .
June 6 , 2007
REPORTED BY: R e n e e R o g e r s , RPR
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 102 of 267
Page 1 0 3 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
EASTERN DIVISION
6
5 EDWARD PATRICK,
6
7 vs.
Plaintiff,
*
I
i
: CASE NO. 05-CV-2792
.?
X
C
8 CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC,:

9 et al.,
10
VOLUME I1
z +
Defendants.
"!
3
11
Videotaped deposition of HENRY HEIMLICH,

13 M.D., a witness herein, taken by the Defendants as
14 upon cross-examination pursuant to the Federal Rules

15 of Civil Procedure and pursuant to notice and
16 stipulations hereinafter set forth, at the offices of
17 Finney, Stagnaro, Saba
&
Patterson Co., LPA, 2623
18 Erie Avenue, Cincinnati, Ohio, at 9 : 3 3 a.m. on
19 Friday, June 6, 2007, before Susan Sharp,

20 videographer, and Renee Rogers, Registered
21 Professional Reporter and notary public within and
22 for the State of Ohio.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 103 of 267
1 APPEARANCES :
On b e h a l f o f t h e P l a i n t i f f :
N . JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP, ESQUIRE Monohan & B l a n k e n s h i p 7 7 1 1 Ewing B o u l e v a r d , S u i t e 1 0 0 F l o r e n c e , K e n t u c k y 41022 ( 8 5 9 ) 283-1140
RANDY J . BLANKENSHIP, ESQUIRE R o b b i n s , K e l l y , P a t t e r s o n & T u c k e r , LPA The F e d e r a t e d B u i l d i n g , S u i t e 1 4 0 0 7 West S e v e n t h S t r e e t C i n c i n n a t i , O h i o 45202 ( 5 1 3 ) 721-3330 On b e h a l f o f t h e D e f e n d a n t s : KENNETH A . Z I R M , ESQUIRE W a l t e r & H a v e r f i e l d , LLP The Tower a t E r i e v i e w 1 3 0 1 E a s t N i n t h S t r e e t , S u i t e 3500 C l e v e l a n d , O h i o 44114 ( 2 1 6 ) 781-1212 behalf t h e Witness :
CHRISTOPHER P . FINNEY, ESQUIRE Finney, Stagnaro, Saba & P a t t e r s o n C o . , 2 6 2 3 E r i e Avenue C i n c i n n a t i , Ohio ( 5 1 3 ) 533-2980 Also Present: Edward P a t r i c k , M . D .
LPA
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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4 respective parties that the deposition of Henry 5 Heimlich, M.D. may be taken at this time by the
6 Defendant as upon cross-examination pursuant to the 7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and pursuant to 8 Notice and agreement of counsel as to the time and 9 place; that the deposition may be taken by videotape
10 and in stenotypy by the notary public-court reporter, 11 and transcribed by her out of the presence of the

14 signature.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 105 of 267
Page 106 I N D E X
3 Witness 4 HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D.
Continued Cross
By Mr. Zirm
E X H I B I T S Referred to
9 Defendants' Exhibit Number 124
10 Defendants1 Exhibit Number 125

1 1 Defendants' Exhibit Number 126

13 Defendants' Exhibit Number i28
1 4 Defendants' Exhibit Number 129

17 Defendants1 Exhibit Number 132

19 Defendants' Exhibit Number 134 20 Defendants' Exhibit Number 135
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 106 of 267
Page 107 (Defendants1 Exhibit Numbers 124 through 135 were pre-marked for identification.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: videotape record. We are on the
Today's date is June 6,
The time is 9 3 3 . Would the reporter please swear in the witness. (Whereupon, the witness was sworn in by the court reporter.) MR. ZIRM: Good morning, Dr. Heimlich.
My name is Ken Zirm.
We met before at the
previous -- the first day of your deposition.
I'm the lawyer that represents
Cleveland Scene magazine and Tom Francis, the reporter for Cleveland Scene who are being sued by Dr. Edward Patrick. I'm going to continue with some of my questioning related to that case. I'll just
remind you that if you don't hear me or understand one of my questions, please let me know and 1'11 rephrase it so that you're understanding what I'm asking you and we can be on the same page, okay?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 108 THE WITNESS: Yes.
HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D.,

3 of lawful age, as having been duly sworn, was 4 examined and testified as follows:
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. ZIRM:
I'm going to start by showing you a
8 document that's been previously marked in the case as 9 Exhibit 37.
If you could take a minute and take a
10 look at that document.
Yes.
This is a document that Dr. Patrick has

13 produced during discovery for us.
It appears to be a
14 resident -- a certificate issued by Jewish Hospital.
Is this a document you've seen before,

16 or a document like this?
Well, when you showed it to me I'm sure

18 I've seen this way back, but I can't remember it.
19
Okay.
Do you remember this form being
20 used by Jewish Hospital?

21
I don't.
You do not?
Does that appear to be
23 your signature on the bottom left?

24
Yes.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 108 of 267
Were you familiar with Jewish Hospital

2 issuing certificates of some sort to their residents?
3
I'm sure I was aware of that.
Okay.
This one for Dr. Patrick says he Do you
5 has satisfactorily served as resident one. 6 see that?
Yes. Is that a term you're familiar with,

9 resident one?
I think in this case it was -- the way
11 it was -- you gave me a contract that was signed. 12 think it may have said resident one. Okay. Did that have any particular
14 meaning to you?
Not really. It was one classification
16 of the regular residencies.
Okay.
Were you familiar with other
18 residents at the time who were considered to be 19 resident ones at Jewish Hospital?
Might have been.

Okay.
I don't know.
And this document indicates that
22 the period of Dr. Patrick's resident one service was

23 September 1, 1975 through August 31, 1976.
Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 110
I
What do you recall your contact being

\I
2 with Dr. Patrick in the months and years immediately

3 after he completed this one-year residency?
!
1
Well, he served as a rotating resident.

i t
Yes.
6
He had, as I recall, four months on
7 surgery, four months on medicine, I think a month on

8 emergency room, I think a month on anesthesiology. 9 And I'm not sure.
:. 4
f
That was -- should come to a
I
1
?
<
10 total, whatever it would bring it up to, 12 months. 11
i1
J
1
Okay.
And at the end of that 12-month
12 period, did you continue to have contact with Dr.

13 Patrick? Yes. And describe that for me. I'm thinking
16 i n -- let's say in the year right after that period 17 of time, do you recall what your contact with Dr.
18 Patrick was?
Well, we were doing certain studies 20 together.

And did Dr. Patrick continue to work at
22 Jewish Hospital?
I don't know if he was employed at

24 Jewish Hospital, but he did come to Jewish Hospital.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 110 of 267
What studies did you do together with

2 Dr. Patrick in that time period right after his
3 resident one?
Well, we did studies researching use of
5 the Heimlich maneuver for saving drowning victims,

6 use of the Heimlich maneuver for saving choking
7 victims.
I think those were our primary.

Describe for me what that research
9 consisted of,
10
Reviewing medical reports and
11 literature and books and medical journals, writing
12 studies.
Anything else? Very likely during that period we spoke
15 at certain medical meetings.
16
Were you aware of what else Dr. Patrick And, again, I'm
17 was doing during this time period?
18 directing you to the two- or three-year period right 19 after he finished his residency at Jewish.
I don't remember it.

21 me what he was'doing.
He may have told
It's not something I would
22 remember,
23
Q
Was there anything else that you were
24 involved in with him other than the research relating
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 111 of 267
Page 112
1 to the Heimlich maneuver?
I think that was primary.

3 have been other things we discussed.
There could
We had -- when
4 we were together at the -- during the residency year
5 we had certain studies going on a possible means of

6 improving heart-lung bypass machines or substitutes.
5
Again, I don't remember the exact
8 timing, but we did discuss and consider a means of

9 providing oxygen to a patient.
'2
There were probably
I.
1
10 other things, whatever interested us at the time.

11
I
I
, J
Okay.
And do you recall whether those
12 projects continued on past Dr. Patrick's residency
These discussions? (Nods head. )

Oh, yes.
I'm handing you a document I've marked

18 as Defendants' Exhibit 124.
If you could take a
19 moment and review that for me, Dr. Heimlich, I'll 20 then ask you some questions.
Is that 1 2 4 ?
MR. ZIRM:
Yes. Mine ' s

blanked out.
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MR. ZIRM:
Yes. Yes.
(Peruses document.)
Dr. Heimlich, this is a memorandum

4 dated August 20, 1976 from Robert Carney to you, and
5 it cc's Dr. Patrick and Mr. Finer.
Do you recall seeing this memorandum or
7 the contents, the subject that's discussed in this

8 memorandum?
I really don't.
30 years is a long
Do you recall discussions about a

12 possible clinical research position for Dr. Patrick
13 at Jewish Hospital at the conclusion of his
14 residency?
I don't.
Okay.
17 came to pass?
Do you know whether that ever
I really don't remember. Okay. Let me hand you what's been
20 marked as Defendants' Exhibit 125, and ask you to

21 take a moment to r e v i e w that a s well, D r . Heimlich.
(Peruses document.)
Okay.
Dr. Heimlich, this is a document that

24 we obtained from Jewish Hospital in this case.
It
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 appears to be dated 5-3-1977, and appears to be
2 minutes of an executive board meeting where Dr.

3 Patrick's staff membership at Jewish Hospital was
4 being discussed. 5
Does this memorandum stir your
6 recollection at all?
No.
But it brings to mind the
8 computerized study on the cardiac disease.
Okay. I'd like to speak about that. Tell me what it brings to mind about that for y o u . May I bring the -- this is a copy of the Scene Okay.
-- article.
( Peruses
document. )
17 says here:
In his aloof, distracted way, Patrick
18 tended to a computer in the cardiac unit.
19 professor of electrical engineering from Purdue, he

20 was merely conducting a study, one that had nothing
21 to do with -the hospital's patients or doctors.
I want to point out that his study on

23 the computer in the cardiac unit was a medical 24 study.
It was a means of diagnosing in the emergency
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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1 room, for example, when certain symptoms appeared,

2 what the diagnosis would be. And what was your involvement in that
4 study, Dr. Heimlich?
5
I was not involved.
This was a medical
6 study.
7
Okay.
And there was something in the
8 memorandum that I just showed you that spurred your
9 recollection of that? 10
No.
This spurred my recollection of Your article in
11 what you were talking about here.

12 the --
Okay. Okay. Well -16 It says he was merely conducting a
17 study, one that had nothing to do with the hospital's 18 patients or doctors.
19
Okay. This is what we're talking about, this
2 1 study h e r e .
Okay.
23
And can you --
The fact is, he was not merely He was a resident.
24 conducting a study.
He was a
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 116
1 rotating resident.
And it had much to do with the It had to do with
2 hospital's patients and doctors.
3 the treatment of the patients and his relationship

4 with the doctors.
Okay. And that was during his -- during his
6
7 residency.
Okay.
Do you recall -- now, this
9 document I've just shown you, 125, the memorandum of
10 5-3-77, is discussing -- and this is some months

11 after his residency had concluded, and was discussing 12 the granting of privileges to Dr. Patrick.
Do you recall being involved in those
14 discussions at all?
I probably was. 16 I don't recall.
Do you recall anything about how that
17 was -- that issue was resolved?

18
I do not recall.
But apparently it was
19 resolved with following his residency, his completion

20 of his residency, when the doctors had come to know
21 him, that he should continue this work, apparently,
22 that they gave him consulting privileges.
My question is simply do you recall
24 today as you sit here whether he was granted
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 117
I consulting privileges at Jewish Hospital?

Say that again. Do you recall whether he, in fact, was
4 granted consulting privileges at Jewish Hospital?
I would say that that's what they said. And do you recall whether those 7 privileges were given to him in internal medicine, or
8 surgery?
I'm asking --
It says here that it was moved and
10 seconded and unanimously carried, that the executive

11 board recommend consultant privileges for Dr.
1.2 Patrick, allowing him to choose whether he desires to
13 be in the department of medicine or surgery.
Do you remember what he chose?
I do not remember.
Okay.
And this is very near the end of
17 your tenure at Jewish Hospital in May of 1977,

18 correct?
Urn-hmm . You left later that year, correct?

21 mean, you stopped -- you
-- your position as
--
you
22 stepped down from your position as director of

23 surgery --
Correct.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
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Page 118
-- later in 1977, correct?

Correct. Okay.
Are you aware of Dr. Patrick
4 doing a residency at Jewish Hospital other than the 5 one-year rotating residency?
No.
I'm only -- I'm definitely aware
7 he did the rotating residency. 8

Q
Right.
Are you aware of Dr. Patrick
9 doing any other residency at any facility or any
10 other type of residency program other than that 11 one-year rotating residency?
12
I'm not -- I'm not -- I don't remember
13 being told such. 14
Okay.
You weren't involved in any
15 other residency program or supervising him in any

16 other residency program? 17
No.
I would say that the one-year
18 residency was an excellent one.
19
Did you become aware that some point
20 after completing his rotating residency that Dr.

21 Patrick'began practicing emergency medicine?
At some point he did. And that he took positions in emergency

24 rooms at different hospitals?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 118 of 267
Yes.
Were you i n v o l v e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s a t
3 all?
No,
I might have w r i t t e n a l e t t e r t h a t
5 h e had worked w i t h m e o r s o f o r t h .
Like a reference l e t t e r ? Probably. Did you s u p e r v i s e him a t a l l a s h e
9 worked i n o t h e r emergency rooms?
No.
I ' m h a n d i n g you a document t h a t ' s b e e n

1 2 marked a s E x h i b i t 1 2 6 , D r .
Heimlich.
I f you would
1 3 t a k e a moment t o r e v i e w t h a t document,
( P e r u s e s document. ) This is a
16 pages.
Okay.
-- a n e x h i b i t t h a t h a s two
The s e c o n d p a g e -- t h e r e i s a s e c o n d p a g e t o
1 7 i t t h a t i s marked i n t h e l o w e r r i g h t [ s i c ] a s w o r k i n g
1 8 copy, a n d t h e n a p p e a r s t o b e -- t h e f i r s t p a g e
19 a p p e a r s t o b e a typed-up v e r s i o n o f t h e second page.

20
M y f i r s t q u e s t i o n i s , i s t h a t your Any o f t h a t
2 1 h a n d w r i t i n g o n the s e c o n d p a g e ?
22 h a n d w r i t i n g y o u r s ?
23
I couldnlt say.
Okay.
On t h e f i r s t p a g e , d o e s t h a t
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
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1 appear to be your signature?
Yes. This is a State of Ohio Medical Board

4 form.
Do you recall filling out this form on behalf
5 of Dr. Patrick?
I don't recall it.

Okay. Do you have any reason to
8 believe that you didn't sign this form and submit it

9 to the Ohio State Medical Board?
10
No.
11
Okay.
It's dated October 8, 1976.
Do
12 you see that at the top, top right-hand corner?
Yeah, And the first question that you're

15 responding to says:
16 doctor?
How long have you known the
And you say three years.

A
Q
17
18
Yes. Which, in my calculation, would mean
19 that you had known Dr. Patrick since October or so of
Do you know whether you, in fact, had known

21 D r . Patrick that long at the time'you filled this
22 form in?
23
No.
I met Dr. Patrick either in the

I guess it
24 fall or the winter of '74 the first time.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 120 of 267
1 depends on how you look at the years.
It's not full
2 years.
I knew him from that time in '74, '75, and
Okay.
Let me show you another document
5 that's been previously marked in the case as Exhibit
(Peruses document.)
8
Yeah.
Dr. Heimlich, this is a document that
9 was in Dr. Patrick's Ohio State Medical Board file
10 that we received in the case.
It's an affidavit of
I1 physicians form.
Are you familiar with this form?
Not really. Does that appear to be your
14 signature on the top?

Looks like it, Okay. And you're apparently vouching
17 that you had known, again, Dr. Patrick for three
18 years, and that he had been practicing medicine for
19 the last one and a half years at Jewish Hospital.

20 you see that?
Yes,
My first question is I guess this is -23 again, this is dated November of 1976, and he had
24 completed his rotating residency on September 1,
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 121 of 267
Page 122 1
$ i
1 1976.
Do you consider participating in a residency
2 program to be the practice of medicine?

3
It could be considered that. Okay. Yeah.
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5
Do you believe this is an accurate
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8
9
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MR. FINNEY:
You mean on that issue, or
on everything?
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Let's expand it.
On everything else
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11 that's in here.
Do you believe this is an accurate
E
i;
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Again, I -- since it's '76 and I knew

14 him '74 -- part of '74, ' 7 5 , and ' 7 6 --
Okay.
-- yes.
Okay. Handing you a document that's
18 been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 127, Dr.

19 Heimlich.
Please take a moment to review that one. (Peruses document.) And I'll just -- there's three pages to
Yes.
(Peruses document.) Yes.
The first page of Exhibit 127 is a copy
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 122 of 267
Page 123 1 of a letter to you from an A.F. Hughes, M.D., at

2 Saint Elizabeth Hospital Medical Center in Lafayette,
3 Indiana.
Do you know A.F. Hughes, M.D.? No.

,I
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And it says that Dr. Patrick has 6 applied to this hospital for staff membership 7 requesting privileges in surgery, and basically
8 asking you to evaluate him.
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And the second two pages appear to be a
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10 return letter as well as a form that you may have 11 provided to Dr. Hughes at that hospital.
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Do you recall providing this to Dr.

13 Hughes at Saint Elizabeth Hospital?
I don't.
Okay. And this is dated February of
16 1 9 7 7 , so this is approximately seven or eight months 17 after Dr. Patrick has completed his residency
Do you believe that at that point Dr. 20 Patrick would have been qualified to receive
21 privileges in surgery at a hospital?
No. Okay.
I did not say that.
I said:
In regard to Dr. Patrick's
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 123 of 267
Page 124 i
1 professional ability, moral and ethical standards,
2 character, integrity, and personality, I would
3 classify these as excellent.
I 5
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It is a pleasure to
:
9
4 work with him here at Jewish Hospital.
(1
Okay.
And then on the third page, it
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6 indicates -- and I'll note that it has your name on
i
3
7 this form, but I don't see your signature.
So I
8 don't know and have not seen a copy of this document
9 with your signature.
But you -- in the form,
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10 evaluation of internship, do you believe that that

11 description there is accurate?
!I
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Okay. That first part? Yes. Where it says: Dr. Patrick
16 performed in the patient care and ethical areas

17 completely satisfactorily?
Yes. Okay. You're comfortable with that,
20 you believe that's accurate?
Oh, yes. Okay. In your view is it appropriate
23 to refer to that rotating residency that Dr. Patrick

24 performed or completed as an internship?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 124 of 267
The word "internship" has come and

--
2 gone.
I had a
before I went in to the war I had
3 graduated from medical college, and I had a one-year

4 surgery internship at Boston City Hospital -- nine
5 months we were allowed, not one year.
And that was
6 the equivalent of what we would today call a surgical
7 residency.
8 Q
So your understanding is today they
9 don't really use the term "internship"?
I really don't know if they use it or

11 not, but that was the situation in those days.
Okay.
Can you recall in 1975, ' 7 6 when
13 Dr. Patrick was doing his rotating residency whether
14 you referred to it as an internship, or a residency,

15 or did it matter? 16
We referred to it as a residency.
Okay.
An internship was generally a first
19 year out of medical school.
Today they would refer
20 to it as a residency, I believe.
21
Q
Okay.
Handing you, Dr. Heimlich, what
22 I've marked as Defendants' Exhibit 128.
(Peruses document.)
Yes.
This appears to be a copy of a letter
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 125 of 267
Page 126 :. 1 that you wrote dated April 1, 1977 on behalf of Dr.
2 Patrick. I guess the first question would be do

>
4 you recall what this letter was -- the purpose this 5 letter was written for?
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I don't.
Do you have any recollection as to who
8 it may have been sent to?
F:
9
10
I don't.
Do you have any recollection whether
:
11 you wrote it, or whether it was written for you for
12 your signature?
13
This doesn't look -- I don't know.
But
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14 usually I sign my name Henry J. Heimlich.

15 16
Okay.
I may have done it.
I donv t know.
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17
So it doesn't appear that your middle

I
18 initial is in this signature? 19
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That's correct.
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20
21
Okay.
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As I say, I do not know.

Q
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Okay.
Does the letter appear to

J 3
23 accurately reflect your view of Dr. Patrick?
24
MR. FINNEY:
You're talking about the

h
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 126 of 267
third paragraph? MR. ZIRM: third paragraph. In particular, yes, the
(Peruses document.) Okay.
Yes.
And at that time, the first
6 paragraph you state that Dr. Patrick's abilities as a 7 physician are excellent.
And you believed that? As a physician? (Nods head. ) Yes.
And that was based essentially on his

13 performance in that rotating residency program?
14
Correct.
15
Because essentially that was -- was
16 that the only time you were really exposed to him as 17 an acting physician?
As an acting physician? (Nods head. ) Can you define that? Yeah. That's probably a poor term.
22 That's probably a lawyer trying to use a medical

23 term.
24
Was there any other time other than his
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 127 of 267
Page 128 1 rotating residency period when you observed Dr.

2 Patrick rendering patient care?
I would think not.

Okay. When you refer in a letter like
5 this, a letter of reference, to his abilities as a
6 physician are excellent, what are you referring to?

7 What abilities?
Taking care of patients. Okay.

I remember when he was on medicine as a
11 resident, rotating through medicine as a resident, my 12 father was admitted that evening, and Dr. Patrick was 13 on-call for the department of medicine. 14 admitted to medicine. He had done a thorough history of my 16 father's illness, physical exam, written them on the
17 chart, recommended treatments and laboratory
18 studies.
He was
19
And being a resident, he, of course,
20 works on each patient under the patient's private

21 doctor as well as other residents.
And I observed
22 similar care to other patients when he was rotating
23 through surgery.
24
So when you do say that his abilities
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 128 of 267
1 as a physician are excellent, or he's an excellent

2 physician, you are referring to his patient care?
I'm referring to his patient care, his

4 knowledge of medical situations, diseases,
5 conditions, his desire to learn more, keep

6 up-to-date, et cetera.
The next paragraph, the second
8 paragraph of this letter says that Dr. Patrick has
9 particular interest and capability in caring for

10 patients with emergency conditions such as major 11 trauma and acute coronary diseases. 12
Yes.
He showed t h a t .
And how did you know that? He showed that ability in patients he
15 worked with.
And certainly with acute coronary
16 diseases, his study was of particular interest and

17 capability.
18
Is it possible that Dr. Patrick
19 prepared this letter for you and asked you to sign it
20 for him?
I doubt it.
Okay.
Do you ever recall that
23 occurring with Dr. Patrick, where he would prepare a 24 reference letter for you and ask you to sign it?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 129 of 267

Other than the missing middle initial,
3 does this appear to be your signature at the bottom?
I really don't know.

Let me hand you what's been
6 marked as Exhibit 129.
(Peruses document. )
Yes.
And there's two pages to this document,

9 Dr. Heimlich.
I put those two together because it
10 appears to be a letter to you from a Donald
11 Muhlenthaler, dated January 25, 1979, and then your
12 response to him of March 1,

Did you know Donald Muhlenthaler at
14 Dearborn County Hospital?
No. Did you have any particular 17 relationship with Dearborn County Hospital? No. Directing your attention to his letter
20 to you, the first page of the document, it indicates

21 that Dr. Patrick has made application to Dearborn
22 County Hospital for emergency medical staff with

23 privileges in emergency medicine.
Then it says:
On his application, he
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 130 of 267
Page 131 :
1 stated that he served his internship under you in
2 1975 at Jewish Hospital, and his residency in surgery
3 from 1975 to 1977 at the University of Cincinnati 4 Medical Center.
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Did you have any knowledge of Dr.

6 Patrick serving a residency in surgery at the 7 University of Cincinnati Medical Center? 8
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No, I don't. But you do have knowledge of his 1975
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10 internship?
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Yes. And your letter, the second page,
13 appears to be a letter from you to Mr. Muhlenthaler.

14 I'll ask you if you know, does that appear to be your
15 signature on this letter?
Yes, it does.
Okay.
18 letter says:
And the first sentence of this
Dr. Patrick served his year of surgical
I9 residency at Jewish Hospital in Cincinnati when I was 20 director of surgery.
Is that accurate?
No, that is not. Because he didn't really serve a

23 year of surgical residency?
Correct.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 131 of 267
And I notice you don't say anything
2 about his -- the University of Cincinnati residency

3 from 1975 to 1977. 4 respond to that?
Do you know why you didn't
Say that again.
Your letter does not address the 1975
7 to 1977 residency in surgery that Mr. Muhlenthaler
8 referenced in his letter?
A
Q
That's correct. And I'm just wondering if you recall
11 why you didn't address that.

12
'
This is 1979.
I had no knowledge
13 whether he did, or whether it was served or not
14 served.
9
Okay.
Dr. Heimlich, I've got another
16 one for you.
This one's marked Exhibit 130.

Yes.
18
Can I just go back for one second.
Can
19 we put that one to the side for a second, Dr.
20 Heimlich.
21 signature.
I just have a question about your
On the last two exhibits, if you want

23 t.o -- you can go ahead and put that one down for a
24 second.
On 128, you said you couldn't be sure that
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 132 of 267
Page 133 : 1 was your signature on this 128; is that right? Right. But on 129 you did seem sure that it
4 was your signature?
J
Y 5
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Well, it has the J.

1
Okay.
So that's the difference? I

5
Well, there are other differences.

8 always made big lines -9
10
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Okay.
-- for the H's, but I wouldn't say it
?
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11 was. On this one, 129, you're not sure 13 either?
ri
I'm not sure.

Okay.
16 signature than 128?
But it looks more like your
Only because the J is left out. 18 couldn't tell you.
I won't make a point on that.

I understand. I was just wondering why
22 you answered the question differently when I showed
23 you the two signatures.
Yeah.
I could not -- I'm not a
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 133 of 267

>
Page 134
1 signature reader.
I couldn't tell you.
<
?
I understand. And now looking at 130,

%
3 which is a letter from you to a Dr. Jain, J-A-I-N, 4 dated January 28, 1988, does that look like your
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5 signature?
6
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Again, I will not say.

Okay.
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But this one appears to have
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8 your middle initial?
,
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It does. Okay. Do you know who Dr. Jain is?
1
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No, I don't. This letter says: Dr. Patrick was a
, ,
13 resident on my surgical service when I was director
14 of surgery at the Jewish Hospital of Cincinnati.
Is that an accurate statement?

It is by virtue of the second line. Okay . During his rotation he successfully
19 treated a broad category of emergency, medical, and 20 surgical cases.
Do you recall writing this

22 letter?
I don't.
Let me hand you Exhibit 131.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 134 of 267
Page 135
: '
(Peruses document.)
Yes.
P
This appears to be a letter from you to

3 a Dr. DeBeukelaer at the Medical College Hospitals in
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8
4 Toledo, dated May 1, 1990.

5 this letter?
Do you recall writing
5 $
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I don't.
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Do you believe that you wrote this

8 letter? 9
10
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Is it possible that it may have been
II
11 written for you and asked for your signature?
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Possibly. And does this appear to be your

14 signature?
Possibly. Did you know Dr. DeBeukelaer?

No.
Did you have any particular

19 relationship with the Medical College Hospitals in
20 Toledo?
No.
Directing you to the second indented

23 paragraph, it says:
Dr. Patrick completed a rotating
24 internship 1975-1976 as --
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 135 of 267
Page 136 Where are you?

MR. FINNEY:
Excuse me.
(Indicating.)
Oh, the second paragraph. Yes. You with me?
Go ahead.
6
Dr. Patrick completed a rotating
7 internship 1975-1976 as part of the requirements for

8 board certification in emergency medicine, electing
9 to become board certified in emergency medicine

10 through the practice route.
11
My question is, at the time that Dr.
12 Patrick was participating in his rotating residency,

13 did you know that he was intending to become board
1.4 certified in emergency medicine?
No, I did not. Okay. But I think this is -- well, do you

18 have other questions about this?
19
I was going to ask you about the next In this regard, I
20 sentence in that paragraph:
21 provided him with direction to achieve a well-rounded
22 program.
Yes.
Did you, in fact, provide Dr. Patrick
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 136 of 267
1 with direction with regard to his board certification

2 in emergency medicine?
You'll have to remember, there was no 4 emergency medicine residencies or internships at that
5 time.
Okay.
By having a rotating internship that

8 included surgery, medicine, anesthesiology -9 anesthesiology, for example, one would learn how to
10 put a tube into the trachea to give oxygen or to give
11 anesthesia, an important emergency medical factor. So that the residency gave

--
was an
13 excellent means of learning care of patients in
14 emergency medicine.
Okay.
Surgery patients, medical patients,
17 whatever.
When he -- the way it's worded, he
18 completed a rotating as part of the requirements.
It was -- in looking back, it was part

20 of the requirements at that time for board
21 certification in emergency medicine.
And when you say at that time, at -At the present time they have special
24 residencies in emergency medicine.
I don't know
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 137 of 267
Page 138
1 about now, but some time after they start.
:
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Okay.
And this letter is dated May --
I
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So that by 1990, having had the

4 residency, he -- when he was later reviewed, had some 5 training that would meet some requirements in 6 emergency medicine. 7
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Yes.
,
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I was going to ask, the sentence that
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In this regard, I provided him with direction

13 to achieve a well-rounded program, what are you
14 referring to?
Well, actually, when he -- again, we're 16 talking about 1990. I'm sure when we talked about
17 his desire to do emergency medicine, the best way to

18 do it at that time was through the practice route
19 after at least having had the one year of residency.
So I discussed with him, I'm sure -21 don't recall it -- what would be a well-rounded
22 program in the practice route that could lead to 23 emergency medicine certification, board
24 certification.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 138 of 267
P a g e 139
'
1
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Do you specifically recall having those
2 discussions with Dr. Patrick?

:
I don't recall, but it's very likely.

i
And what do you believe or recall you
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5 would have said to him about that?
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I beg your pardon?

What do you believe you would have said
8 to him or advised him about that, about getting a 9 well-rounded practice route?
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Well, if he was going to go in to
i 5
11 emergency medicine, he should be dealing with
1
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12 patients that would be involved in emergencies.

13 might be working in an emergency room.
But you don't recall whether you 15 actually, in fact, had those discussions with Dr.
16 Patrick?
I can't recall, of course, 30 years -18 not quite 30.
1990.
I'm handing you what's been marked as

20 Exhibit 132. 19 -- what did you say? 22 say about 32?
Oh.
What did you
Oh.
I'm saying the Exhibit Number 132.
(Peruses document. )
Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 139 of 267
Page 140 ;
Q
Have you seen this letter before, Dr.
2 Heimlich?
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I think I have.
4
Q
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Do you know for the purpose for which
5 it was written? No, I don't. It appears to be dated March 26,
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Correct. And it's on personal letterhead. Was
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Was this your residence address at the

14 time on the letterhead?
Yes.
Okay.
The first sentence says:
Dr.
17 Patrick served as a resident at the Jewish Hospital

18 from 1975 to 1979.
That's not accurate, is it?
And then it says:
During that period,
21 I was director of surgery at the hospital, and Dr.
22 Patrick was a resident in surgery and other
23 specialties.
I guess I'll take the first part of
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 140 of 267
1 it.
You weren't director of surgery at Jewish from
2 1975 to 1979, were you?
No.
4
Q
And Dr. Patrick was not a resident in
5 surgery and other specialties, was he?

No . Is this
--
Not in that time. Okay. But he was in '75 -And he rotated --- ' 7 6 . -- through surgery as part of his
Correct.
No.
Absolutely not.
It looks like someone signed your name
It's absolutely someone. Okay. And there's some initials --
That's what I mean. Yes. Can you make out those initials?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 141 of 267
I can't. Do you believe you had knowledge that

3 this letter was being sent or --
No.
-- was being prepared for you?

6 7 ago.
No.
This was given to me a short time
And do you know how you received -- who
9 gave it to you?
Mr. Finney.
Okay.
Do you have any knowledge of
12 ever seeing this letter before? No. Do you believe that you would have
15 signed this letter and sent it to someone?
No. And that is because it does not appear

18 to be an accurate letter?
19
20
That's correct. I'm going to hand you two documents The first one is Exhibit 133. The second
21 together.
22 one has been marked as Exhibit 134.
MR. FINNEY:
Ken, I think after this
we'll try to take a break and I'll see if
Case I :05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 142 of 267
I can do something about the air
conditioning. MR. ZIRM: Sounds good. Yes.
(Peruses document.)
5
Have you had a chance to look at both
6 of them, Dr. Heimlich?
Yes.
Do you have any recollection of signing
9 these two MedChek forms in 1 9 9 5 ?
No, I don't.
On the second page of both documents,
12 does it appear to be your signature?

13
I don't know.
MR. FINNEY: When you say both
documents -- oh, I see.
MR. ZIRM:
Q
Yeah.
Sorry.
If you could look at Exhibit 134 for a
18 second, on the front page you see it says years in
19 residency under number l(b)?
20
21
Yes. In someone's handwriting it says from
22 1976 to 1979, for Dr. Patrick's years in residency.

23 And that's not accurate, is it?
No.
Where does it say the residency
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 143 of 267
Page 144 1 is? It doesn't seem to indicate. Pardon?

4 5 form.
:
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So I can't comment. Okay.
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You had no personal knowledge of
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8 a residency from 1976 to 1979, did you?
!
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I did not. 10 Do you believe you would have signed a
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11 form that indicated that you had knowledge of Dr.

12 Patrick performing a residency from 1976 to ' 7 9 ?
! I i
Not if I had read it carefully. Not if you had read it carefully? Yeah. So if this is your signature on this 17 form, it may be because you didn't read it carefully 18 before signing it? No. Okay.
I don't know if it's my signature or
I'm not saying that either.
Okay.
You have no recollection today
24 o f being asked to f i l l out this form and sign it?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 144 of 267
i Page 145 ; i
I have no recollection.
No.
No.
That
2 does not mean I did not.
I just don't have any
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3 recollection of it.
5
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Okay.
5 MedChek?
And are you familiar with
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No. Okay. How about the Academy Services
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9 10
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The what?
No.
At the top of the document right under

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11 MedChek, it says Academy Services of Cincinnati,

12 Inc.
Are you familiar with that? No

;
MR. ZIRM:
Let's take a short break and
see if we can bring the temperature down. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: record. We are off the
The time is 10:31.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We are back on the
record.
Q
The time is 1 0 : 4 9 .
Dr. Heimlich, who's Robert Kraft?
Robert Kraft is a man who is in public

23 relations.
And have you employed Mr. Kraft?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 145 of 267
On and off.
2
And was part of what you employed
3 Mr. Kraft to do was to deal with reporters'
4 questions?
5
Yes. And I think the first day of your
7 deposition you indicated that you had read his

8 deposition transcript in this case.
Are you aware
9 that Mr. Kraft had his deposition taken?
Oh, correct.
Yes.
And did you have a chance to review his

1 2 transcript?
I just go through it very loosely.
Okay.
Let me hand you an exhibit that
15 was marked at his deposition which is Exhibit 41.
By the way, I was thinking during the

17 break about timing and so forth, how long did I know
18 Dr. Patrick --
Yes.
-- and did we work together and so
21 forth.
And, actually, it was quite a time when I
22 advised him as he went on in his career.
And I realized, for example, that in

24 1980 we published a scientific paper together.
It
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 146 of 267

1
Page 147
1 was on the Heimlich maneuver.
i
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And I did a certain part of it, and
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3 then he did a part that involved his medical 4 engineering knowledge as to why the Heimlich maneuver
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5 was successful in expelling out choking objects.
So
6 we obviously had to work together quite a bit on that
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And when you say that type of thing, I
9 think you testified earlier that you continued to
1
3
4 4
10 perform studies --
11
Studies and stuff.

-- on the Heimlich maneuver?
i' e
Exactly.
14 things, yeah.
Well, on that and other
And other areas?
But I remember the specific date of

17 that paper.
And -That was in a scientific journal. Do you recall what that paper, the
21 title of that paper was?
Not off the top of my head.
I'm sorry?
Not off the top of my head. But it was
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Page 148
1 a peer review journal.
2
And it had to do with the Heimlich
3 maneuver?
With the Heimlich maneuver. As applied to drowning, or choking?

A
Choking.
We might have had some
7 drowning in it.
I don't know.
I gave a scientific
8 basis -- a scientific background of the Heimlich 9 maneuver, and so forth, and Dr. Patrick did a
10 separate section on the mechanics of the Heimlich 11 maneuver.
12
For example, why -- when I originally
13 designed the Heimlich maneuver, the object -- the 14 object was to cause a flow of air that would carry an
15 object away, which experiments showed it would do.

I 6 Which, of course, it's done thousands and thousands
17 of cases now.
18
Dr. Patrick showed in his section that
19 the thing that carried the object away was the
20 transference of energy.
The flow of air provided
21 energy to the object in the direction of going out of
22 the airway, out of the lung airway and out the mouth,
23 whereas, for example, as we showed with the back slap

24 as had been used for many years before the maneuver,
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Page 149
1 there was no transfer of energy of that type.
Okay.
Thank you.
If you could review
3 the exhibit I've placed before you, which is -- it's 4 an e-mail exchange.
And, Dr. Heimlich, as you know,
5 with e-mails when you print them out sometimes the 6 first e-mail appears last. 7
So it might be easier if you read the
8 second page, which is an e-mail from Tom Francis at 9 Cleveland Scene to Mr. Kraft, and then the first page
10 has his response.
Do I have to read the whole thing?
What I'm interested in is the -- you

13 see there's five numbered questions? Yeah. There's those five questions, and then
16 on the first page there's five responses, and that's 17 all I really wanted to ask you about.
Yes.
(Peruses document.)
What do you
19 want me to do as I'm reading it?
Well, let me ask you this:
With regard
21 to the article the lawsuit -- the article that this
22 lawsuit is about, which you pulled out and referred
23 to earlier, it was written by a man named Tom

24 Francis.
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Were you aware that Mr. Kraft was

2 exchanging e-mails with Mr. Francis prior to the
3 article being written?
I believe so.
Okay. Well, let1s look at the first
6 page, and then we can -- if we need to refer to the
7 question that's been asked, we can.

Mr. Kraft is sending an e-mail to
9 Mr. Francis on Tuesday, October 19, and he's talking
10 about -- in number one at the very top, he's talking
11 about when you met Dr. Patrick.
And I think that's
12 consistent with what you testified today, is it not? Correct. And then the last sentence in number
15 one:
Dr. Patrick had no role in the -Excuse -- oh, one. Yes.
No role in the origin or the

18 development of the maneuver, the Heimlich Maneuver?
19
Yes. And that's correct? Well, again, I think you asked me about
22 the word -- showed me something, and it depends again

23 on the word "development," as far as that goes.
He
24 had no - - he obviously met me after the maneuver had
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1 been originated --
Correct.
-- and published.
Correct. Do you --
It depends whether the development

6 would include this one I just told you about. 7 Q I understand.
Which was six years later or so. Okay. Do you recall talking with Mr.
10 Kraft about the date of your meeting with Dr. 11 Patrick? 12 About what? The date you first met Dr. Patrick. Probably.
15
Do you recall Mr. Kraft telling you
16 that reporters were interested in that, knowing when
17 you first met Dr. Patrick?

18 19
I don't recall.
If you look at the second page, let's
20 look at number three.
If you could just read that to
21 yourself, the third question.
What is a CV? Curriculum vitae.

Oh.
(Peruses document.)
Okay.
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Page 152
Q
And then if you see Mr. Kraft's
2 response to number three?
Yes. Is Mr. Kraft's response accurate?
I would say in a way it is.

6 it is.
In a way
I find that many of the substance of this
7 article and in this question as well as others, that

8 they're kind of roundabout.
Well, I'm just asking you about -- a

10 question about the residencies, where Mr. Kraft says 11 that the only one you were aware of Dr. Patrick's
12 residencies was the 1975 term when he rotated through

13 all the departments.
14
15 yes.
16
That was the residency he had with me,
Okay.
And if you could look at number
17 five, the first -- the question on the second page, 18 Pat -- do you see where it says:
Patrick is claiming
19 that he was instrumental in convincing C. Everett

20 Koop to recommend the Heimlich maneuver as first
21 response in choking rescue, that his papers were
22 crucial to achieving this endorsement. 23 accurate?
Is this
And Mr. Kraft responds that Dr. Heimlich
24 was not aware of those efforts.
Filed 02/07/2008
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Page 153
Was that accurate?
I was not aware of those efforts.

3 However, I believe that Dr. Patrick did have a
4 contact with Dr. Koop, and --
You were just not aware of it at the 6 time?
I was not aware of it at the time.

8 I do believe that he did have a contact with Dr.
9 Koop.
But
Now, whether Dr. Koop would have released the
10 same 'thing that he released, which was very strong,

11 or not, I don't know.
But he -- unquestionably I do
12 believe that he had some contact with him.
Dr. Heimlich, did Dr. Patrick ever hold

14 a position with The Heimlich Institute?
15
Well, he worked with me there.
I don't
16 know -- recall whether it was a specific position. Was he -He did voluntary work.
I was going to ask if it was a paid -No.

-- was he paid for working there?
No.
Voluntary. What did
What was that voluntary work?

24 that consist of?
Again, writing -- going over scientific

2 questions together.
3
Do you know what -- approximately what
4 time period this was?

5
Well, in '77 when I left, we had -- we It was
6 didn't have the Heimlich maneuver by name.
7 called the Dysphagia Foundation, difficulty

8 swallowing.
It had been based on an operation I had
9 developed. 10 And when I got to Xavier, we then
11 changed it because the work was then more diffuse 12 than just the swallowing problems. 13 changed to the Heimlich Institute. The name was It's obvious That
14 that, as you know, we were working together.

15 was in 1977. Right.
And we had published that paper, for

18 example, in 1980.
19
Okay. So it certainly went on through that
21 period, yes.
22
Okay.
Do you recall whether it went
23 beyond that period, whether Dr. Patrick was working

24 at the Heimlich Institute?
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Page 155 Oh, beyond 1 9 8 0 , y e s .

2
D i d he e v e r h o l d a t i t l e w i t h t h e
3 Heimlich I n s t i t u t e ?
I don't recall.
L e t me hand you w h a t ' s b e e n marked a s

6 E x h i b i t 135.
You d o n ' t n e c e s s a r i l y h a v e t o r e a d t h e Heimlich.

I j u s t wanted t o a s k you
7 whole t h i n g , D r .
8 whether you've seen t h i s a r t i c l e b e f o r e .

Yes.
Absolutely.
And t h i s i s a n a r t i c l e w r i t t e n by D r .
11 P a t r i c k f o r t h e j o u r n a l Emergency?
12
Yes.
D i d you see a d r a f t o f t h i s a r t i c l e
1 4 b e f o r e i t was s u b m i t t e d t o t h e j o u r n a l ?
I don't recall.
16
Were you a w a r e o f t h e c a s e t h a t ' s
17 r e p o r t e d i n t h e j o u r n a l b e f o r e t h e a r t i c l e came o u t ? The Lima -The Lima c a s e .

-- Ohio?
Urn- hmm
.
P a t r i c k about
Oh, y e s .
(ZT
And h a d you t a l k e d t o D r .
24 i t b e f o r e t h i s a r t i c l e came o u t ?
Yes.
I'm sure.
I donrt recall
2 absolutely, but I'd be quite sure I did.
And have you ever seen any of the
4 hospital reports or paperwork related to that Lima

5 case?
I don't think I did, but I do remember

7 he specifically -- I knew it very definitely was at
8 Lima and encountered this situation.

9
Have you utilized this article in any
10 way in support of your efforts to promote the
11 Heimlich maneuver for use in drowning cases?
12
When I've written in the past on
13 drowning, I have mentioned this with reference to Dr. 14 Patrick's report.
Has Dr. Patrick ever spoken together

16 with you, made any presentations with you relating to 17 the Heimlich maneuver and drowning?
Yes.
A number of times?
Yes. Very valuable.
I believe that's all the
MR. ZIRM:
questions I have for you, Dr. Heimlich.
THE WITNESS:
You're not going to leave
this without discussing the report in the
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 156 of 267
Scene?
MR. ZIRM:
Mr. Blankenship may ask you
about it, but I have no more questions for you.
THE WITNESS:
Well, I would like to
say, having read this now -MR. ZIRM: There's no question before
you, Dr. Heimlich.
THE WITNESS: what -MR. FINNEY:
And I cannot report on
We can deal with it in
rebuttal or otherwise. THE WITNESS: Okay. We are off the
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.
The time is 11:07.
(Deposition was continued in progress
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A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T
3 STATE O F O H I O
COUNTY HAMILTON
I, Henry Heimlich, M . D . ,
have read the
7 transcript of my testimony given under oath on June
Having had the opportunity to note any
10 necessary corrections of my testimony on the errata
11 page, I hereby certify that the above-mentioned 12 transcript is a true and complete record of my
13 testimony.
HENRY H E I M L I C H ,
M.D.
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C E R T I F I C A T E
2 STATE OF OHIO
4 COUNTY OF
HAMILTON :
I, Renee Rogers, the undersigned, a duly
6 qualified and commissioned notary public within and
7 for the State of Ohio, do hereby certify that before

8 the giving of his aforesaid deposition, the said 9 Henry Heimlich, M.D. was by me first duly sworn to
10 depose the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 11 the truth; that the foregoing is a deposition given
12 at said time and place by Henry Heimlich, M.D.; that 13 said deposition was taken in all respects pursuant to
14 Notice and agreement of counsel as to the time and 15 place; that said deposition was taken by videotape
16 and by me in stenotypy and transcribed by
17 computer-aided transcription under my supervision;

18 and that the transcribed deposition is to be

20 signature. I further certify that I am neither a
22 relative of nor attorney for any of the parties to

23 this cause, nor relative of nor employee of any of
24 their counsel, and have no interest whatsoever in the
Filed 02/07/2008
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1 r e s u l t of t h e a c t i o n .
2
I N WITNESS WHEREOF, I h e r e u n t o s e t my hand
3 a n d o f f i c i a l s e a l o f o f f i c e a t C i n c i n n a t i , Ohio, t h i s
4 1 5 t h day of June,
2007.
8 M y Commission E x p i r e s :
9 A p r i l 13, 2007
Renee Rogers N o t a r y P u b l i c - S t a t e o f Ohio
Filed 02/07/2008
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Page 1 6 1
EDWARD PATRICK,
Plaintiff,
VS.
: CASE NO. 05-CV-2792
CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC, :

et al.,
VOLUME I11
Defendants.
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D.
June 7, 2007
REPORTED BY:
Renee Rogers, RPR
\.
...
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5 EDWARD PATRICK,
6
Plaintiff,
: CASE
7 vs.
NO. 05-CV-2792
8 CLEVELAND SCENE PUBLISHING, LLC, :

9 et al.,
Defendants.
12
Videotaped deposition of HENRY HEIMLICH,
13 M.D., a witness herein, taken by the Defendants as

14 upon cross-examination pursuant to the Federal Rules
15 of Civil Procedure and pursuant to notice and

16 stipulations hereinafter set forth, at the offices of 17 Robbins, Kelly, Patterson
&
Tucker, LPA, 7 West
18 Seventh Street, Suite 1400, Cincinnati, Ohio, at 2:04 19 p.m. on Thursday, June 7, 2007, before Susan Sharp,
20 videographer, and Renee Rogers, Registered

21 Professional Reporter and notary public within and
22 for the State of Ohio.
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1
Page 1 6 3
'!
?
1 APPEARANCES :
On behalf of the Plaintiff:
i
f
'i
N . JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP, ESQUIRE Monohan & Blankenship 7711 Ewing Boulevard, Suite 100 Florence, Kentucky 41042 (859) 283-1140
RANDY J. BLANKENSHIP, ESQUIRE Robbins, Kelly, Patterson & Tucker, LPA The Federated Building, Suite 1400 7 West Seventh Street Cincinnati, Ohio 45202 (513) 721-3330
9
i
4
I
; ;
r
5 1
On behalf of the Defendants:

10
i!
11
KENNETH A. ZIRM, ESQUIRE Walter & Haverfield, LLP The Tower at Erieview 1301 East Ninth Street, Suite 3500 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 (216) 781-1212
On behalf of the witness:
1
1 *
+
CHRISTOPHER FINNEY, ESQUIRE Finney, Stagnaro, Saba & Patterson Co., LPA 2623 Erie Avenue Cincinnati, Ohio (513) 533-2980 Also Present: Edward Patrick, M.D.
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1
Page 164 1
1
*

1
J
4 respective parties that the deposition of Henry

1
5 Heimlich, M.D. may be taken at this time by the 6 Defendant as upon cross-examination pursuant to the
5
I t L
i
!
1
I
7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and pursuant to

8 Notice and agreement of counsel as to the time and 9 place; that the deposition may be taken by videotape
10 and in stenotypy by the notary public-court reporter, 11 and transcribed by her out of the presence of the
j
I
t
>i
3
I
4
J
1

14 signature.
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Page 165
I N D E X
2
3 Witness 4 HENRY J. HEIMLICH, M. D.

By Mr. Jeffrey Blankenship
Examination
E X H I B I T S Marked
9 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 38-A
Referred to
11 Plaintiff's Exhibit NNNN
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 0000

13 Plaintiff's Exhibit PPPP
1 4 Plaintiff's Exhibit QQQQ

15 Plaintiff's Exhibit RRRR
Filed 02/07/2008
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Page 166 (Plaintiff's Exhibits NNNN through RRRR were pre-marked for identification.) THE VI DEOGRAPHER : videotape record. We are on the
Today's date is June 7,
The time is 2:04. Would the reporter please swear in the witness. (Whereupon, the witness was sworn in by the court reporter.)
Dr. Heimlich, We've met
my name is Jeff Blankenship.

previously.
I haven't had a chance to
question you yet, so I'm going to ask you some questions today.
HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D.,
16 of lawful age, as having been duly sworn, was
17 examined and testified as follows:

18
EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: 20
First of all, just for the record,
21 would you please state your name.
Henry Heimlich. 23
And, Dr. Heimlich, what is your
24 professional address?
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M y professional address?
Your home address?
My home address?
Yes.
2347 Bedford Avenue, 45208.
6
Okay.
And a professional address as
7 well?
Deaconess Hospital. Deaconess Hospital. You are -- and
10 what is your profession, Dr. Heimlich?
My profession?
Yes, sir. I'm an M.D. I was a thoracic surgeon.
And you're now retired from thoracic is that correct? Indeed, yes. But you still do practice medicine; is
18 that right?
No. You don't practice -No.
I don't --
-- medicine at all? -- practice medicine.

Okay.
I do research.
Dr. Heimlich, w h a t i s your d a t e
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Page 168
1 of birth?
February 3, 1920. All right. Now, Dr. Heimlich, just for
4 the record, we were starting your deposition
5 yesterday at Mr. Finney's office; is that correct?
6 Go you remember that?

7
Yes.
No.
We -- well, we had it before
8 then as well.
Right.
Yesterday was the second time
10 we had been to Mr. Finney's --
Correct.
-1I
office?
After the deposition yesterday, if you

1 4 ~ i . L 3 . recall, I was netting with Dr. Patrick and I
1 5 believe you were meeting with your attorney; is that
I/
1 6 correct?
Yes.
18
And at some point during that meeting
19 it's my understanding you asked to meet with me and 20 my co-counsel; is that correct?
Correct.
Would you, just for the record, clarify

23 who was present in that meeting. Mr. Finney, you, and the gentleman next
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Page 169
1 to you --
Okay.
-- and me.
And you. And just for the record,
5 then, tell everybody what was discussed in that 6 meeting, and what was the purpose of that meeting?
Well, I'm very much involved in what's

8 going on in regard to the Cleveland Scene -- 1'11 9 call it the Scene case.
And I feel I found that
10 there are some errors, some erroneous words that are

11 very destructive, and some false words in the Scene.
And, in addition, I particularly -- as

13 one who has been much involved in saving lives, I
14 believe there's evidence that the story in the Scene 15 can cause the death -- needless death of children and
16 adults, and I felt it was very important, therefore,
17 to get this information to you.

18
And that's why you asked for us to meet
19 with you, so that you could relay to us what you
20 thought was erroneous in the Scene and how it might

21 affect the death of many children?
Exactly. Dr. Heimlich, where did you go to

24 college and medical school?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 169 of 267
Cornell College -- Cornell University

2 undergraduate for BA, and Cornell Medical College for
3 an M.D.
Dr. Heimlich, I'm going to ask -- or
5 show you, rather, what's previously been marked as
6 Defendants' Exhibit 47, and ask you to identify the

7 document, please.
This is my curriculum vitae, including

9 medals I won during the war and elsewhere, and honors
10 and awards, honorary degrees in various colleges and
11 universities.
And, Dr. Heimlich, you are a veteran of

13 World War 11; is that correct?
That's correct. Where did you serve in World War II? Well, it sounds funny. I was in the
17 U.S. Navy and I served in the Gobi Desert of Inner

18 Mongolia, China.
Someone wonders how a sailer would get

20 to the inner -- inner area like that.
Well, it was a very -- I'm proud to say

22 it was considered an extra hazardous -- all I was
23 told when I was called to the Office of Chief of 24 Naval Operations in Washington was that it was extra
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Page 171 1 hazardous duty in China, prolonged extra hazardous
2 duty in China, and I could take it or not.

3
And I must say I didn't take it purely
4 to take it as such, but I also realized that if I

5 didn't take it, I was assigned to a ship, a 6 landing-craft-type ship, and if I got -- got it on 7 the beach, I would rather see China if I'm going to 8 get it.
I understand. It turned out to be a very, very 11 significant and important -12
It was a rewarding experience?

Yes.
Basically we had up there just 12 I was a
14 men, American men, six Marines and six Navy.

15 doctor then, 23 years old.
And we had -- two of them
16 were weathermen, and they got the weather about two
17 weeks before it hit the Pacific and regulated it
18 every night so that the movements in the Pacific were
19 regulated, what they could do based on the weather 20 that was coming.
21
And we were protected by 250 Chinese
22 guerrilla soldiers which our Marines trained, and we

23 were behind Japanese lines.
So my job, I was ordered

And they wouldn't
24 to keep the people on our side.
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Page 172 : 1 come to me.
I was a foreign devil for medical
I
\1
2 treatment, until a peasant came in carrying his

3 18-year-old daughter on his back, unconscious, and
4 she had a big swollen abdomen.
And I had no idea

i
5 what she really had there, but I knew I had to

6 operate. 7
:
>
?
I
And here I was in a very primitive
8 situation.
I had only nine months of surgical
J
4
9 internship. And it was already evening, there are no

10 lights there.
,
!
J
So I said if she lived until morning,
1 I
I
11 I would operate on her.

4
4
12
I had developed some intravenous
13 solutions -- you couldn't give them in the vein.
14 They weren't pure enough for that.

15 the skin.
I gave it under
And she was somewhat improved in the 17 morning, and I operated on her and drained a huge
18 abscess.
In fact, when that happened, I was happy. It was big.
19 That was all I could have handled.
And she came around, and she went home

21 in a week.
And the people realized she was supposed
22 to die, and then I had a hundred to 200 patients

23 every day.
The other thing was there was a warlord
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1 who had an army of a hundred thousand soldiers across

2 the village.
And he was still on the Chinese The only other Army was what Shanghai
3 national side.
4 had.
And he had held off the Japanese. And I went to him and I built him a
6 medical -- I offered to build him a medical corps, 7 and he gave me nine of his best men.
And I took care It was the
8 of his patients, and I trained them.
9 first medical corps in the 5,000-year history of
10 China.
And also, I will say, this warlord 12 eventually, after the war, came to Beijing -- it was
13 then Peking -- and the cities were surrounded by 14 armed forces.
And his daughter begged him not to He opened the gates
15 destroy the city and have a war.
16 -- she went out and arranged a date, he opened the

17 gates, and mass forces came in.
That happened around
18 the country then, and the war was over. How long did you serve in the military,
20 Dr. Heimlich?
21
In the Navy? Yes, sir. About two years, I think. And totally -- after the Navy did you
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1 continue to serve your country in the military?

2
In the military, no. On your curriculum vitae, if you look
4 at the first page, it indicates that you were in the
5 military from 1943 to 1952.

6
Oh, yes.
I was in the reserves, but I
7 wasn't on any active duty.
I understand.
So you continued to be
9 in the reserves for a number of years after --
That's right.
-- your active duty? Dr. Heimlich, have you at any time been
13 board certified in a medical specialty?
14
Yes.
I'm board certified in general
15 surgery, and then I'm board certified in
16 thoracic/chest surgery.
I might say it was a young
17 field in my -- at that time, and I was number 139 to

18 get boards in thoracic surgery in the country.
19
Dr. Heimlich, are you familiar with
20 emergency medicine board certification?
Oh, yes. Do you know what it took in 1980 or

23 thereabouts to become board certified as an 24 emergency-medicine physician?
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1'11 have to think back to the day.
2 can't really say that in general I did know that. 3 don't know exactly when they had boards for emergency
4 medicine, and I'm not sure of the date.
I know when
5 they first had a true emergency medicine residency. 6
Are you familiar with the term
7 "practice route1' for emergency medicine?
Sorry? Are you familiar with the term

10 "practice route" for emergency medicine?
Yes.
Can you explain what that is?

13
Well, actually, the practice route is
14 not only for emergency medicine, it's in different

15 fields.
16
Okay. Now of course you take a residency.
18 There was no residency then, but you could practice
19 in a hospital where you would get the experience and

20 the education in emergency medicine.
And were you required to accumulate a

22 certain number of hours to become board eligible?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
Filed 02/07/2008
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Okay.
2 3 experiences. 4
That could have been hours or
Dr. Heimlich, after you completed your Did
5 military service, you went in to the reserves.
6 you also begin then practicing medicine back here in 7 the states?
Yes.
I -- well, when I came back after
9 the war, I had to take -- I had taken a surgical

10 internship which then counted as a first-year
11 surgical residency, although it was only nine months
12 we were allowed at that time before we went in the

13 war.
Then I took a second residency -- when

15 I got out, took a residency in surgery at Mt. Sinai 16 Hospital in New York City, which was a year and a
17 half, which was -- a half a year was affiliated with
18 Columbia University.
19
And then I went to Belleview Hospital,
20 took a year's further general surgery, and then I

21 went to another hospital in Queens in New York, that
22 was a city hospital, tuberculosis primarily, to study

23 a residency in chest surgery.
24
Okay.
And when were you first board
Filed 02/07/2008
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1 certified in general surgery, if you remember?
Well, I'm going to guess it was about And I forget how long
3 1950 when I took my exam.
4 after, maybe a year after, when I took the thoracic
5 surgical boards.
Okay.
Dr. Heimlich, are you married?
Very much.
8
How long have you and your wife been
9 married?
10
11 week.
Not very long.
56 years just last
Last week.
13 children?
Congratulations.
You have
Wonderful.
15
Yes.
And what are the names of your
16 children?
Well, there's Phillip, the oldest son;

18 Peter, we'll probably discuss him later, the second 19 son.
I think he's -- Phillip, I think, is 53.
20 about 51 or two.
I have twin daughters who are 43,
21 and my wife is a twin.
You mentioned your son, Peter, and I
23 don't mean to -- I won't belabor a difficult
24 subject.
Would you mind talking for a minute about
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Page 178 :
1 your relationship with Peter?

2
Well, I would like to say that that's a
9 I
:
I
3 family matter. 4
li
I
Okay.
I will just say that he has been
6 estranged from the family for some years. 7
; i a
1
f
I
Okay.
I won't probe that any more.
8
9
Pardon?
+ i.
I won't probe that any more.
When you
4 3
7
10 -- strike that.
* $
11
At some point in your career you joined
12 Jewish Hospital; is that correct?
Yes. And do you remember approximately when

15 that was?
Yes.
That was 1 9 6 9 .
All right. 18 at Jewish Hospital?
What were your job duties
I became -- I was invited -20 prior to that, in New York.
I was invited to Jewish
21 Hospital to become the first full-time director of
All right.
And as the full-time
24 director of surgery, did you have any supervisory job
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Page 179 1 duties over residents? Totally over the surgical residents. And did you also have supervisory
4 duties over residents when they rotated through 5 surgery as part of their --
Yes, I did.
-- as part of their residency?
Yes.
9
Do you recall what types of residencies
10 were offered at Jewish in the early 1 9 7 0 s ? 11

A
Well, the two I remember primarily were
12 surgery and medicine, and there was a rotating

13 residency when warranted.
Okay.
And you're aware that Dr.
15 Patrick has a certificate showing that he indicated
16 -- that he completed a rotating one-year residency; 17 is that correct?
That's correct. What was your understanding of the

20 purpose of his residency?
21
Well, a rotating residency was taken One would be a doctor who
22 primarily for two reasons:
23 was not sure what field he wanted to go in to; one

24 would be a doctor that wanted clinical experience in
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1 a variety of conditions, and it could be a doctor who

2 wanted to become an emergency physician and therefore
3 had to have education in different fields that he
4 might face in an emergency room.
I see.
6 did; is that correct?
And that's what Dr. Patrick
A
Q
Pardon?
Is it your understanding that's what
9 Dr. Patrick chose to do?
I'm not -- it's my understanding now, 11 and after he did it.
I was not necessarily aware
12 that that's what he wanted it for when he took it.

Okay. Dr. Heimlich, I'm going to show
14 you what's previously been marked as Defendants1
15 Exhibit 48.
Take a minute and take a look at Exhibit
Yes. And if you would, please, just tell us

19 what that document is.
Oh, that is my stepping down as

21 director of surgery.
Okay.
So some time around May 27,
23 1977, you stepped down as director of surgery at

24 Jewish Hospital?
Filed 02/07/2008
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Correct. But the hospital apparently continued

3 to work with you and provide you a location; is that 4 correct? 5 6
Did what?
The hospital -- it appears from this
7 letter that the hospital continued to work with you
8 to provide you with a location and other services?
Oh, I continued on staff.
I was a
Okay.
And also had the research facility.

So you voluntarily left that position,
Yes, I did.
Yes. And, again, this is dated May 27, 1977;
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1
2 this letter? 3
Do you remember this?
Do you remember
I remember I got a letter, and I don't
4 think I remember specifically this letter.
Okay.
How long did you remain on staff
6 at Jewish after you stepped down from the director of
7 surgery?
I'm afraid I can't remember that. That's okay.

10
11 say.
I stayed on for several years, I would
What did you do after you left Jewish?
I was invited in that same year -- the

14 word got out that I had left the director of surgery,
15 and I was invited in to Xavier University as
16 professor of advanced clinical sciences.

17
Q
And, in fact, let me show you what's
18 been marked as Defendants1 Exhibit 50 previously, and
19 ask you to review this document, if you would,

20 please.
(Peruses document.)
Yes.
This is a newsletter from Xavier

23 University about your appointment, isn't it?
Yes.
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Page 183 1
$
It talks about some of your
! !I
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I 1
2 accomplishments in the past, doesn't it?
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1
Yes, it does. This document also refers to the HARP,

5 H-A-R-P, group.
!
Would you tell us, what is the HARP
i
1
6 group and what was it formed to do?
I was at Jewish Hospital when I did

8 this.
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I had read or heard that Neil Armstrong had
9 joined the faculty at UC, University of Cincinnati,

10 and it was a very interesting and important thing.
-! . .
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And I called him up and went over and
1
l! i
;
' I
12 told him what my interests were -- just to make it a
13 little amusing here.
He's quite a guy.
And I said I had invented this

15 operation for replacing the esophagus, and it was
4
t
16 essentially the first time an organ of the body had

17 been totally replaced.
1
I
%
A
He said what about the
8
A
18 artificial leg. Anyway, we hit it off. And we started
a
v
s
i
i
20 meeting for lunch and having -- got very interested

21 in each other's work, very significant, and then
I
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22 another -- I brought in another man, George 23 Rieveschi.
. !
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He was a chemical engineer, I believe.
24 And he was very famous for having invented the first
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Page 184 ; 1 antihistaminic.

2 out there.
I forget the name of it.
It's still
r'
Commercial name.
In fact, there's a
3 building named for him I think on the campus now. 4 And so he began joining us --
Would that be Benadryl?

3
Huh? Would that be Benadryl? Yes. So he began meeting with us for
+
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9 lunch, and talking and so forth, and we began meeting
'L
10 also in my laboratory, having our lunch there and

I if
11 having our meetings.

:I
Then Dr. Patrick came along. 13 he was the tenured professor of electrical
14 engineering at Purdue University.
And here
Brilliant.
We could use the word of a -- of an 16 engineer. And I introduced him to the group, and he
17 joined us and participated in these weekly meetings. And, of course, Dr. Heimlich, you are a 19 medical doctor? Correct.
Q
Neil Armstrong, the astronaut, is the A
isn't he? He's what? He's the A in HARP?
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Page 185 He's the A in HARP.

2
But he's not a medical doctor, he's an
3 engineer?
No.
He's an astronaut. And R is Rieveschi?
Astronaut. Rieveschi.
He's also a medical doctor as well -he's not.

-- isn't he?
Oh, he's not?
He's a chemical engineer.
And Dr. Patrick is both a medical
12 doctor and an engineer? Medical doctor and an engineer, which
14 is -- at that time, I might say, a very interesting

15 thing for us. Engineering was just sort of becoming And here was this unusual
16 a part of medicine.
17 situation to have somebody who knew medicine and 18 engineering. And a lot that Dr. Patrick introduced
20 was in computers.
Medicine had practically nothing

So each of us had
21 in computers in those days.
22 something to contribute.
Yes.
I might say Neil obtained two -- the
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1 last two -- they were valves affiliated with pumping
2 fluid through the astronaut's suit to maintain the

3 temperature when they were out.
And it had an interesting thing.
5 had what was called a diaphragm pump, and in the

6 middle of the two sides there was this elastic 7 diaphragm that could move either way with the least
8 force.
So it took very little energy to move the
9 fluids through the machinery.
And at that time, coming in to being

11 for the first time, were pumps that would pump blood
12 through the body while they were clamping off the

13 heart blood vessels for that type of surgery.
This
14 was all very new.

One of the problems with them is that
16 they destroyed the red blood cells --
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: to go off the record. record.
I'm sorry.
We need
We are off the
The time is 2:30.
(A brief recess was taken. )

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We are back on the
record.
The time is 2:31.
Dr. Heimlich, let me ask you a

24 specific --
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Page 1 8 7 ;
Let me just -Okay.
(
1
-- finish this.
Okay.
'
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6
We did a test running the blood through

6 this type of a pump, and it did not destroy the blood
1!
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7 cells nearly as fast as the pumps that were being

8 used.
So that was a major contribution.
'I
In fact, there were other devices that
i!
4
i
10 the HARP group was able to invent or develop, weren't

11 there, such as the MicroTrach?
t
I
Oh, the MicroTrach.

13 a concept I had.
The MicroTrach was
I noticed that seeing people with
14 oxygen flowing in their nose, not only were they 15 bothered by this apparatus, but they were -- with
16 every breath they were going like that, straining to

17 get the oxygen down.
And I thought, well, and that just

19 really destroyed their lives, plus the fact that this
20 would come off at night and they weren't getting
21 oxygen at night would shorten their life.
And I had this concept if I could put a

23 tiny tube in here into the trachea, into the
24 windpipe, and deliver the oxygen that way, it would
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Page 188
1 spread through the lungs and relieve that.
And I
2 ended up developing that, and it was extremely 3 successful.
We had many patients who -- and they And the people liked it,
5 breathed normally.
6 particularly the women, because you couldn't see they
7 were taking oxygen.

8 (indicating). 9
The tube ran down here,
In addition, you use 50 percent of the
10 oxygen that you would use -- that you were losing out
11 of the nose and mouth.
So they had their oxygen in a
12 little aluminum tank that a woman could carry in her

13 purse, and you wouldn't know she was taking oxygen.
Let me ask you a specific question

15 about the article, Dr. Heimlich.
If you would look,
16 please, at page three of that article. 17
MR. ZIRM:
You're referring to Exhibit

referring to Exhibit 50.
Yes.
Yes.
In the top paragraph, it's talking -23 the article is talking about the HARP group, and
24 references Dr. Edward Patrick, M.D., Ph.D., professor
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Page 189
1 o f e l e c t r i c a l e n g i n e e r i n g a t Purdue U n i v e r s i t y .
Excuse m e .
I don't see that.
It's the
3 l a s t page?
NO,
sir.
It's t h e next-to-last
page.
I'm s o r r y .
C o u l d you s t a r t a g a i n .
Sure.
A t t h e t o p of page t h r e e i n t h a t
7 f i r s t paragraph
--
Yes.
9
-- t h e l a n g u a g e t a l k s a b o u t t h e g r o u p
1 0 HARP, a n d t h e n i t r e f e r e n c e s w h o ' s a member o f HARP, 11 a n d t h e l a s t p a r t o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h m e n t i o n s D r .
1 2 Edward P a t r i c k .
Do you see t h a t ?
Yes.
Then i t r e f e r s t o h i m a t t h e e n d of
1 5 t h a t s e n t e n c e a s t h e f o r e m o s t a u t h o r i t y on
1 6 computerization i n medicine.
17 A
Yes.
Do you know who came up w i t h t h a t
19 terminology t o d e s c r i b e D r . P a t r i c k ?
I d o n ' t know, b u t i t was o b v i o u s .
Okay.
S o you a g r e e w i t h t h a t ?
T h e r e was nobody t h a t I know o f who h a d

23 the
-- was a t e n u r e d p r o f e s s o r o f e n g i n e e r i n g and a n
24 M . D .
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Page 190 Okay.

2 characterization?
3
So you agree with that
Yes, I do. Dr. Heimlich, you have been -- become
5 known as the developer/originator of what has become
6 known as the Heimlich maneuver named after you. Yes. Would you please explain to the jury
9 what the Heimlich maneuver is?
What the Heimlich maneuver is? Yes, sir. Well, I had -- by virtue of a device,
13 this esophagus operation -- and by the way, there was

14 someone who had actually done it before me, but I did
15 not know about it.
And he was in Romania, and we had
16 the cold war going on, so we had no exchange, but 17 eventually I did get invited to Romania to visit with 18 him.
I was interested in swallowing

20 problems.
And I read that choking to death was the

I thought,
21 sixth leading cause of accidental death.
22 gee, this is something I should be interested in. 23 I looked up the medical literature.
What you do is
24 look at what's being done and why is it failing.
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Page 1 9 1 And what w a s b e i n g t a u g h t was h i t

2 people on t h e back.
P e o p l e t h o u g h t t h a t was t h e
I t was b e i n g t a u g h t b y t h e
3 n a t u r a l t h i n g t o do.
4 f i r s t a i d organizations.
And t h e n I r e a d a l l t h e m e d i c a l
6 a r t i c l e s o n c h o k i n g , g o i n g b a c k more t h a n a h u n d r e d 7 y e a r s , a n d t h i s was i n 1 9 -- e a r l y 1974, a n d e v e r y

8 o n e o f them said n e v e r h i t someone i n t h e b a c k when
11
And i t became o b v i o u s t o me.
You g o t a
12 p i e c e o f meat h e r e , a n d t h i s i s t h e l a r y n x t h r o u g h 1 3 which you b r e a t h e t h r o u g h , a n d many t i m e s you c a n

1 4 s t i l l b r e a t h e when you g o t t h i s t h i n g i n y o u r
15 t h r o a t .
You h i t them o n t h e b a c k , i t moves f o r w a r d , You'll cut off the a i r .
1 6 a n d y o u ' l l k i l l them.
17
So I f i g u r e d t h e answer i s how you
18 a l w a y s g e t t h e c h o k i n g o b j e c t t o g o away f r o m t h e
1 9 a i r w a y , away from t h e l u n g a n d o u t t h e mouth.
And I c o n c e i v e d t h e f a c t t h a t i f you
2 1 c o u l d compress t h e l u n g s ,
you c o u l d g e t a f l o w o f a i r And t h i s I knew a s a
2 2 t h a t would c a r r y i t o u t .
23 t h o r a c i c s u r g e o n .
I knew t h a t t h e r e was a l w a y s --
24 e v e n when you b r e a t h e o u t , t h e r e ' s enough a i r i n the
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Page 192
I
1 lung to perhaps accomplish this.

2
3 of dogs.
And I did a study on some -- a couple I did not hurt them, I want you to know. And I took an endothelial
I
i
4 They were. fine after it.
>
3
t.
5 tube, which is a tube you give anesthesia through or

6 you give oxygen through.
'I
t
You put the tube into the airway, and

8 you blow up a balloon, and then you connect this, and 9 then you can blow up the lungs back and forth when
10 you're giving anesthesia or when you're helping
I 'r
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il
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8 ,
11 someone recover from a condition and they need
F
i
4' 1
But, anyway, I put a plug on the end

14 and put the balloon into the larynx.
And I thought
15 I'm going to compress the chest by pressing on the

16 chest and compress the lungs.
Did it, did it,
17 nothing happened.
18 happened.
Many times I did it, nothing
It became apparent that if you're pressing
19 on a rigid chest, you're not going to compress the
So I conceived of pushing the diaphragm
22 up into the chest, which diminishes the volume of the
23 chest nice and evenly and can compress the lungs, put
24 the tube down, pushed up on the diaphragm, thing flew
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1 out repeatedly.
I sent someone down to the kitchen,
2 get some poor hospital meat, put a piece of meat in 3 there, pressed on the chest, nothing.
Pressed under
4 here, and it flew out.
We did further studies.
I took ten
6 of -- myself and nine other doctors and we measured
7 -- we had an apparatus that measured the pressure and

8 flow of air if you pushed up on the diaphragm. 9
We had an average flow of air of 205 It was actually -- I think it was
10 liters per minute.
11 390 cc in four seconds or whatever, but it -- the
12 actual flow was then 205 liters per minute.

13 knew that would be enough.
14 low.
And I
And pressure was very That's where a lot
It's not a pressure thing.
15 of people got confused.
They're still screaming It's the flow
16 press on the chest or hit the back.

17 that carries it away.
And then I published that in a medical

19 journal.
It was picked up by a press writer from a
20 paper in Chicago that was -- he's written -- his

21 column went in a couple of. hundred papers.
I don't
22 know how many.
And it got all over the country
23 saying what I said, I don't know if this will work,

24 but these are the facts, and you have an alternative,
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1 is to slit the throat, let air in. recommended.
That's what was
And within a week we had the first life

4 saved, and then it kept piling up from all these 5 articles being reported about this.
6 spread. 7
So that's how it
By -- that was in -- published in June
8 1 in the medical journal of 1974, in the press just
9 about immediately after that.
And it was a week
10 after that publication in the press that it was used 11 to save the first life. And then -- in fact, it saved enough
13 lives so that in August, I think it was August 15, in
14 the journal of the American Medical Association, the 15 editors had an article, and it told about this saving
16 so many lives in such a short time, and they said it
17 was called the Heimlich maneuver.

18 came about.
That's how that
Okay.
At some point after you
20 originated the Heimlich maneuver, Dr. Patrick began

21 to do some work with you on that maneuver, didn't he?
What was his role? Well, he did sort of mechanical studies
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Page 195
1 on how the maneuver worked.
And he pointed out
2 mechanically that this flow of air transmits energy

3 to the object which causes it to flow out.
That's why pressure is insignificant,
5 unless it's prolonged pressure, like a flow of air. 6 And he published -- we wrote a joint article in 1980
7 that was - -
THE WITNESS:
Are we all right? Are we all

right? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. Go ahead.
It's okay, but --
And it was that pressure, transmission

14 of that energy that was why the maneuver had been so
15 successful. Okay. Just so we're clear, after you
17 published -- you jointly published the article with

18 Dr. Patrick about why the maneuver was successful in 19 1980, was there -- were there presentations made with
20 regard to the maneuver, professional presentations?

Oh, many medical society meetings.
Who took -- did you take the lead on

23 those presentations, or did Dr. Patrick?
No.
I did.
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Page 196 i
7
Okay.
What --
i.
Dr. Patrick was in many of them. And you testified I think yesterday 4 that he was instrumental in helping you in those 5 presentations; is that correct? 6 A Well, he helped in regard to giving his
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7 experience about the maneuver, yeah.

$
Okay.
So it was his research, though,
9 that you were -- his research that helped you make 10 the presentation?
11
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No.
That -- it would have gone without
. c ,
1
12 h i s research.
,
I
But it was an interesting piece of

15 engineering research in regard to a medical
16 situation.
There was one episode -- the maneuver

19 was in 1974 I came out with it and had done the
20 research.
And in 1985 the U.S. Public Health Service
21 put out a release in which the surgeon general,
22 Everett Koop, warned that you must not hit the back, 23 just do -- the Heimlich maneuver is the only thing to
24 do for a choking object.
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Page 197
And a t t h a t p o i n t t h e R e d C r o s s was
2 s t i l l t h e o n l y o n e s h i t t i n g t h e back,
I think.
They
3 d i d s o many -- oh, t h e r e was a n o t h e r r e a s o n .

4
The Red C r o s s had maybe g i v e n up t h e
5 back slaps b e f o r e t h a t , because j u s t b e f o r e t h a t ,
6 s e v e r a l y e a r s , a few y e a r s b e f o r e t h a t , t h e r e was a
7 h a l f - p a g e a r t i c l e , b i g a r t i c l e i n t h e Washington P o s t
8 c o n c e r n i n g -- and i t was e n t i t l e d s o m e t h i n g l i k e i f 9 y o u ' r e c h o k i n g t o d e a t h d o n ' t l e t them s l a p your 1 0 back.
And t h i s a r t i c l e , an e x c e l l e n t a r t i c l e
1 2 b y J e a n C a r p e r , who's a famous m e d i c a l w r i t e r , and

1 3 t h e t h i n g she p o i n t e d o u t was how s h e had b e e n h i t on
1 4 t h e b a c k and a l m o s t d i e d .
15
And t h e n she p r e s e n t e d a c a s e where I

boy o r younger had been
1 6 t h i n k i t was a ' n i n e - y e a r - o l d 1 7 i n s c h o o l , he was c h o k i n g .
And t h e t e a c h e r f o l l o w e d
2 8 t h e Red C r o s s and h i t him on t h e back f o u r t i m e s , b u t
1 9 h e had been a b l e t o b r e a t h e , 20 a f t e r t h a t .
21
a n d he c o u l d n ' t b r e a t h e
And t h e nurse then arrived,
did the
2 2 H e i m l i c h maneuver, t h e p i e c e o f sandwich f l e w o u t ,
2 3 and h e began b r e a t h i n g b u t h e was a l r e a d y b r a i n
2 4 damaged.
I
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Page 198
And he eventually lived
--
I guess he
2 was six years old, I guess, and he eventually lived 3 nine years, and I think this was six years after that
4 had happened.
And the family had won the largest
5 lawsuit, it told about that, the largest lawsuit in

6 the history of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
7 testified in that case.
And I had
But they won it against --
8 they did not sue the Red Cross, they sued the City of
9 Harrisburg.
I see.
11
And so that really was a turning factor However, And I
12 in the Red Cross dropping the back slaps.
13 the Koop thing was a very substantial thing.
14 didn't know until some time later that Dr. Patrick

15 had been in touch with Dr. Koop about that. 16
Q
Okay.
And we'll come back to that here
17 in just a little bit.
That was in 1985. Do you remember when you and Dr.

20 Patrick first started -- first met?
Yes.
8
Okay.
Do you remember the
23 circumstances under which that occurred?
24
Yes.
He came to see me at my office.
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1 I d i d n ' t know him.
T h i s was i n t h e f a l l o r w i n t e r o f
2 '74 o r e a r l y i n ' 7 5 .
I ' m not sure.
And w e d i s c u s s e d
3 -- a n d h e was r e a l l y -- it was a n i n t e r v i e w , r e a l l y ,
4 for a p o s i t i o n a t J e w i s h H o s p i t a l .
Okay. And I ' d l i k e t o make t h a t v e r y

7 i m p o r t a n t i n r e g a r d t o what h a s b e e n s a i d i n t h i s
8 Scene a r t i c l e .
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
M y s o n -11
Let me ask t h e question.
Is t h e r e a n
1 2 e r r o r i n t h e S c e n e a r t i c l e t h a t you t h i n k you n e e d t o
13 c o r r e c t w i t h r e g a r d t o your m e e t i n g D r .
14
A
Patrick?
Yes.
MR.
ZIRM:
Objection.
What i s
Okay.
17 i t ?
Go a h e a d a n d a n s w e r .
18
M y s o n i s q u o t e d s a y i n g I remember D r . And
19 P a t r i c k v i s i t i n g o u r house i n t h e e a r l y 1970s.
2 0 he obviously was confused, but it wasn't true.
2 1 was a s I j u s t t o l d you.
You a n d D r . P a t r i c k d i d -- some t i m e
2 3 a f t e r ' 7 4 a n d d u r i n g h i s r e s i d e n c y , you d i d d e v e l o p a
24 f r i e n d s h i p , t h o u g h ;
i s that c o r r e c t ?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 199 of 267
He did what?
You and Dr. Patrick did later develop a

3 friendship; is that right?
4
A
Q
Oh, y e s . Do you recall any of the presentations
6 that you participated in regarding the Heimlich
7 maneuver in which Dr. Patrick may have been there to

8 assist you?
Oh, yes.
Just describe where those would have
11 taken place.
We don't need a lot of detail about
12 them, just about when they would have been and when
13 they would have taken place, if you can remember.
I remember one in Washington.
I think
15 it was the National Institute of Health, or one of

16 those organizations had it on the maneuver.
Okay.
And it was a result of that meeting -19 let me see.
Did they develop -- I'm trying to
20 remember -That's okay.

-- when that organization accepted the
23 maneuver, developed it and went on with it.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 200 of 267
But there were several meetings of that

2 type involving the heart association, I think, and
3 the Red Cross and that type of thing.
4 5 it clear.
Okay.
Just for the record, let's make
The person making the presentation to the
6 audience was you, or Dr. Patrick?
Both of us.
It was a committee
It was a committee meeting? Actually, in that one -- yeah.

11 started off I think in a large hall, and I think we
12 then had a committee meeting, and then it went back
13 to the hall.
These are professional meetings, are

15 they not?
Oh, yeah. Okay. Do you recall if Dr. Patrick was
18 already a medical doctor out of medical school at the
19 time of those presentations?

Oh, yes, he was.
And also o u t of his residency at 22 Jewish?
He was either out of it or -- I think

24 he was out of i t . He may have been full in it.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 201 of 267
Page 202
1 not sure.
One of the issues that has come up in 3 this case is whether Dr. Patrick served a legitimate
4 one-year residency at Jewish Hospital in Cincinnati.
5
I
9
7 '
Did Dr. Patrick serve a legitimate

6 residency at Jewish Hospital?
l i
a
>
f
He very definitely did.
And that is
8 not only a fact, we have had presented at this

d
9 meeting a certificate signed by me as director of
5
C
10 surgery that he completed this residency.

11 chief of medicine --
Dr. -- the
;
$ .i
i 1 4
Dr. Margolin? Pardon? Margo1 in?

Margolin.
16 signed a similar thing.
Yes.
Chief of medicine,
We didn't bring this in.
17 believe that was brought in as an exhibit.
And also a contract between the 20 hospital and Dr. Patrick affirming that the residency
I think a month in the emergency room, et

23 cetera.
Okay.
Do you remember -- strike that.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 202 of 267
Page 203
1
Let me show you what's been marked as

I
2 Defendants' Exhibit 55 previously.

1
Yes. This appears to be a newsletter from

5 Jewish Hospital dated June 12, 1975; is that correct?
r:I
Correct. And it indicates that Dr. Patrick was
1 Y
8 joining Jewish Hospital to develop a research program

9 in the area of biomedical engineering.
Do you see
I
1
, I
10 that?
11
Yes. Do you remember when -- do you remember

?
12
,
1
13 that occurring?
Do I remember it occurring? Yes, sir.
I did -- do.
I'm not sure of dates and
Sure.
June 12, 1975 would have been
19 shortly before he started his one-year residency at 20 Jewish Hospital?
Yes, that 's correct.
In fact, let me show you what's also

23 been previously marked in this case as Defendants'
24 Exhibit 56.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 203 of 267
Page 204 i
I
Yes. This is a memo which seems to be

3 discussing the same issue as the newsletter we just
j
i
:
f
V
4 looked at, doesn't it?
Yes.
J
It's dated July 7, 1975. And you were

7 copied on this memo, were you not?
What? It appears that you received a copy -10

11
4 'i j
Y
L
Yes.
I
3
-- of this memo.
Vaguely. Vaguely?
Do you remember that?
It just discusses the
14 physical layout of Dr. Patrick's office, doesn't it?
That's correct. Okay. In the surgical teaching unit. In the surgical teaching unit. When
19 you first met with Dr. Patrick, do you remember if he
20 discussed with you why he wanted to do a residency at

21 Jewish Hospital?
I don't remember the words, no.

Okay.
I'm sure we discussed it.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 204 of 267
Page 205
Z
Sure.
Were you instrumental in the
2 decision to accept Dr. Patrick as a resident at

3 Jewish Hospital?
+
I
I certainly recommended him, yes.

Let me show you what's previously
Z
B
;
6 been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 36 in this case.

7 Take a minute and take a look at this document.
8 think this may have been something you referred to
E
b
9 earlier.
10
(Peruses document.) All right.
Yes.
\
I
11
If you look, Dr. Heimlich,
12 over at page
-May I -- may I point out here -Sure.
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
-- that Dr. Gordon Margolin was
17 chairman of the committee on house staff and

18 education.
He was in charge of house staff and So it was his recommendation that went
19 education.
20 through and got approval.

So it was his recommendation to appoint
22 Dr. Patrick as a resident?
Is that what you're
That's correct.
He was official.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 205 of 267
Page 206
1
All right.
Let me call your attention
2 to the next page which begins a residency agreement.
3 Do you see that?

4
I think you're on it right now.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Attached to that residency
6 agreement is a supplement to residency agreement.

Yes.
(1
All right.
The last paragraph of that
9 supplement to residency agreement refers to the fact
10 that Dr. Patrick would continue a job he had

11 apparently already begun as a physician in charge of
12 clinical computing and eight hours with HARP

13 program.
14
Do you see that?

A
Yes.
Do you remember those discussions about
15
16 him completing -- or continuing in his job as 17 physician in charge of clinical computing as well as
18 with HARP?
19
Well, I'm just reading.
20 anticipated he will have adequate hours outside of

21 the required hospital duties in the flexible program
22 so that he can easily carry this second position to

23 the satisfaction of himself and the hospital.
It is felt that by designing a program
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 206 of 267
1 as described, that both the hospital and Dr. Patrick

2 will benefit, and that the ability to extend computer
3 use to clinical problems will be enhanced and 4 accelerated.
That was the significance. There was

6 no -- in medicine, there was no one that I certainly
7 know of who had computer ability to do the things

8 that are mentioned here.
So there was a great
9 service doing this to the patients, and to the
10 hospital and to Dr. Patrick's education.
During Dr. Patrick's residency, he

12 continued to act as physician in charge of clinical
13 computing?
14
15
I'm sorry? He continued to act as physician in
16 charge of clinical computing during his one-year
17 residency?
Clinical? Yes, sir. What?

I 'm sorry. 22 article --
According to this
Yeah. Excuse me.
-- contract, Dr. Patrick
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 207 of 267
Page 2 0 8
1 continued to act as physician in charge of clinical
:
J '
Y
2 computing --
,
!
Computing.
1
I
-- during his one year of residency?

Correct.
6
II
5
i'
Now, did his computer work during that
2
J
7 one-year residency deal with patients of physicians,

8 or was it completely separate?
i
G ,
No.
It had to do -- it was entirely
10 dealing with patients and physicians, because it was
>i
I
I i
11 taking patients and their symptoms and signs and

12 examination and so forth, and findings, and computing 13 out so that you could use that to determine the
't, ,
14 diagnosis and what to do very quickly.
It was a very
15 original, important piece of work. There have been a number of terms

17 thrown around for a description of Dr. Patrick's
18 residency at Jewish Hospital.
Some have called it a
19 rotating residency, some have called it a flexible 20 internship or residency, others have called it an
21 FYI, or first year one.
Are those terms inconsistent
22 with each other?
No.
24 the same thing.
It's basically different terms for
Filed 02/07/2008
*
Page 208 of 267
Page 2 0 9 Okay.
So flexible and rotating and
.
I
2 first year all mean the same thing?

All obvious.
t
::
:
,?
Have you ever seen the designation PG

4
5 dash one? 6
i
ii
e
1'
I can't remember it.

Okay. That's fine.
Do you know if Dr.
.i
8 Patrick performed his one-year residency as it was

9 intended to be performed?
!
1
10
Absolutely.
Yes.
c
11
Would he have gotten his certificate of
f
I ,
12 completion had he not done so?
Absolutely no. Did you ever receive any complaints

15 that Dr. Patrick was not meeting his residency
16 requirements during the time that he was there?
I never received such a complaint
I might add -MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
-- in regard to that, when Dr. Patrick 21 was on medicine, on the medical service, and he was
22 on duty as a regular resident would be, it was I

23 think in the evening, my dad, my father, who was
24 quite an elderly man then, was admitted to the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 209 of 267
Page 210
1 hospital on the medical service.

2
As a resident, Dr. Patrick had done the
3 history and physical and determined what tests should
4 be done, and drugs, and obviously had consulted with

5 the attending, the doctor, who was a private doctor
6 who was taking care of my father, and very likely

7 with other residents.
So in that case it was right
8 visual in front of my eyes.
Were you satisfied with his

10 performance?
Excellent.
I think the first time we began your

13 deposition over at Mr. Finney's office you referenced
14 Dr. Patrick's residency, and you described him as
15 being unique, someone who was different than other
16 residents.
In what way was Dr. Patrick different
17 from other residents, in your observation?

18
Very simply, he was a tenured professor
19 of electrical engineering. And he had more knowledge 20 probably than anyone in the world, having gotten his
21 M.D.; concerning the computerization of medicine.
Do you recall if Dr. Patrick continued
24 his residency at Jewish Hospital?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 210 of 267
Page 211
I have no knowledge of that.

Did a rotating resident such as Dr.
3 Patrick actually perform any surgery? 4
No. Did they assist in surgery? They -- it is possible that they
7 assisted.
I know they were -- they went to the
8 operating room, and it would be conceivable on a 9 small case they could second assist.
But the resident -- that was the

11 resident's job, was to assist, for the safety of the
12 patient as well as for the training of the residents
13 i n surgery.
14
And a resident in surgery had generally
15 about -- I think it was four years with the program

16 i n those days, and they gradually worked their way up 17 over the four years.
They even did little or no
18 surgery for a year, and possibly some time in to the

19 second year.
20
But they learned by watching surgery.
In the case of Dr. Patrick, it wasn't
21 important for'him to learn the details of the
22 physical performing of the surgery, but to learn what

23 the patient went through and what the condition
24 consisted of.
And that was all there to be learned.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 21 1 of 267
I
Page 2 1 2 i
I understand.
Thank you.
Dr.
2 Heimlich, I'm going to show you what's been
3 previously marked as Defendants' Exhibit 35. 4 recognize this document?

5
Do you
I
i
4
Yeah.
Well, I don't recognize it as
"i
?
f
6 remembering seeing it, but it's an obvious document.
:
I
Okay.
If you look at page two, it
,i:
8 appears to be Dr. Patrick's application for

9 appointment to house staff --
j.
10
11
Yes.
4 $ j
I
i r'
2
-- as a flexible first-year resident? Yes.
, '
Would you have seen this application at

14 the time he a p p l i e d for appointment as a resident?
MR. ZIRM: A
Objection.
By the way, it says okay for flexible
four months medicine, four months surgery

18 and anesthesia, emergency room, and X-ray, starting
19 August 1975, and that looks like it's signed by GM,

20 Gordon Margolin, the chief of medicine.
There may be other initials below that.

22 Can you tell?
May be.
But obviously --
So does that -- what does that indicate
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 212 of 267
1 to you?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection. The head of interns
That he was okay.
4 and the residents, as well as chief of medicine, felt
5 that Dr. Patrick was okay to carry out the flexible

6 program as stated.
Since he was applying as a flexible
8 first-year resident, and you were the chief of 9 surgery over surgical residents, would this have been
10 an application you would have seen at the time of the 11 application?

12
Well, I may have not seen this and may
13 have been asked do I approve of doing this, but I
14 can't say I would have seen this thing that Gordon

15 Margolin okayTd.
Okay. 17 correct?
18
19 it's GM.
EGM, that's Dr. Gordon Margolin,
I don't know.
Could be either. Okay.
It's a big G.
It looks -- no. I think it's GM.
I : think
Okay.
I can only speculate.
That's quite all right.
Do you
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 213 of 267
1 remember Dr. Patrick ever being in an operating room
2 with you or under your supervision?
Oh, very definitely. During his first-year residence?

Oh, yes.
6
Could you describe any of those
7 instances when that occurred?

8
The reason I remember it is this.
9 mean, I did know -- if I hadn't seen him in operating
10 rooms I would have jumped on his back.
But I remember this one particularly,
12 because I had opened the chest of a patient and I

13 wanted to show him something.
I showed that if I
14 pushed up here with the chest open, the diaphragm
15 would move up.

And he was there? And he was there to see that.
18 was obviously a mutual interest.
And that
Do you remember if whether at the time

20 Dr. Patrick was doing his one-year internship or
21 residency at Jewish Hospital, was there a
22 relationship between the residents at Jewish Hospital

23 and those at University Hospital?
There was.
I can only speak for the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 214 of 267
Page 215
1 surgical program.
That's fine. Before I took the position as director
4 of surgery and I was brought out a couple of times

5 to see if I wanted to do those, I met with the chief
6 of -- with the professor of surgery, the one who was 7 the chief of surgery at the university.
And I said to him that if I came out, I

9 wanted, if it was okay with him, my residents to
10 attend the surgical conferences at UC.

11 to it.
And he agreed
12
So every week I would take my staff,

Also, I worked
13 resident staff, over to UC for that.
14 out for the surgical residents that they could work 15 in the emergency room there for a period.
Do you know if Dr. Patrick ever 17 worked -- was assigned to work in the emergency room
18 at University Hospital? 19
A
(Z
I don't know.
Okay.
Do you know if any of the Jewish
21 Hospital residents attended other classes or lectures

22 at University Hospital?
23
I don't know about that, but I should
24 say another duty of the residents, we had a w e e k l y
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 215 of 267
1 surgical meeting, and I believe at the same -- on
2 medicine, and a l l residents attended those meetings. 3 That was part of the educational process.
And those meetings were held at the
University
Cincinnati? No. Those were the ones at Jewish
7 Hospital. 8
Those were the ones at Jewish. The ones at the University of
Okay.
10 Cincinnati were separate ones that we did attend.
I see.
Let me show you what's
12 previously been marked in this case as Exhibit 37.
13 It's not the greatest copy, Dr. Heimlich, so I
14 apologize.
This has been circulated quite a bit.

Can you tell what this
15 Many copies have been made. 16 document is?
Yes, indeed.
And does it have your signature on it?
Yes, it does. This is Dr. Patrick's certificate for

21 comple,tionof .his resident one?
Correct.
I think I have a better copy.

24 going to show you Exhibit 65.
Defendants' Exhibit 65
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 216 of 267
Page 217 :
I
1 appears to be a better copy of the same thing.

2 you recognize the other signatures on this document? 3
1
Robert Carney was the executive He served as president
3
t
4 director of the hospital.
5 of -- of running the administration of the hospital. 6 David Joseph was president of the board of trustees.
7
>
3
And who was president of the medical

1
8 staff at that time, I'm not sure, but it's obviously
t,
i
9 whoever was president of the medical staff.
J
. tI
10 11
All right.
.
I
d 1
I
x
3
I can't read that.

All right.
I understand.
What is the
13 significance for purposes of this case of that 14 certificate?

MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
That certificate shows that Dr. Patrick

17 completed a residency at Jewish Hospital for a year.
Do you remember why you would have

19 signed that certificate?
Because I would have seen him doing

21 that, and because I was signing for the surgical
22 department, because part of the residency was through
23 the surgical department.
Would it be accurate to characterize
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 217 of 267
1 Dr. Patrick's residency at Jewish Hospital as a,
2 quote, phantom residency, unquote?

3
MR. ZIRM:
Objection. It would
That would be totally false. 5 be a lie.
Dr. Heimlich, did you -- we've talked a

7 little bit about the fact that you did continue to 8 have contact with Dr. Patrick after he completed his 9 one-year residency.
Let me show you what's been
10 marked as Defendants' Exhibit 59 in this case.
Yes. This appears to be Dr. Patrick's State

13 Medical Board of Ohio file, and on page four of that
14 document is a form Roman numeral five, affidavit of

15 physician.
Yes. Do you recognize your signature on that 18 affidavit? Yes, I do. Dr. Heimlich, do you remember signing
21 that affidavit?
No, I don't. Fair enough. It says that you had
24 known Dr. Patrick for three years.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 218 of 267
Page 219
Yes. And I think you talked yesterday about

3 where that three-year period came from, didn't you?
Yes. YOU know, we talked a little bit about

6 your signature on various documents yesterday.
7 you remember that discussion -Yes. -- with Mr. Zirm?
During your
10 professional career, did you ever have an assistant

11 such as a secretary or medical assistant sign your
12 name to any documents?
Generally not.
14 time, but it wasn't usual.
I may have done it some
Okay.
So you signed all -- all
16 documents yourself pretty much?
17 18
The ones I've seen here.
Okay.
Other documents such as letters,
19 for example, some of the letters of recommendation we
20 saw yesterday for Dr. Patrick?

21
Well, we saw one that I had definitely
22 not signed for sure.

23
Q
Right.
Is that something that could
24 have been signed by a secretary or assistant on your
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 219 of 267
Page 2 2 0 1 behalf?
I believe it was a secretary.

Okay. Is that something that
a
f
!
4 frequently occurred during your business for the -5
I would say it would happen sometimes.
t
Y
6 1 don't remember how often or when or for what.
I*
1
Okay.
Let me show you what has been This is a new
1.
. r
8 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit PPPP. 9 exhibit.

10
THE WITNESS:
Excuse me.
May I ask to
1
11
cut off for a minute?

You need to
take a break?
Sure.
Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.
We are off the
The time is 3 ~ 1 5 .
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.
We are back on the
The time is 3:20.
Dr. Heimlich, I've handed you a

20 document that's been marked as Exhibit PPPP,
21 Plaintiff's Exhibit PPPP, and I'm going to ask you to
22 turn to the fifth page of that document, please.

23 you can tell this is Dr. Patrick's file with the 24 American Board of Emergency Medicine.
As
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 220 of 267
It's not numbered, is it? I t l s the

--
Only applicants applying?

Q
Is that --
It's the document that's got question That's the page. Yes. At the bottom is question Position demonstrating a
5 number nine at the top.
That's it. All right.

8 number 11, which says:
9 minimum of 2,800 hours of practice in emergency
10 medicine.
Do you see that? Yes. And there are four hospitals listed
13 there:
Dearborn County, Galion Community -- I don't
14 know how to pronounce that one.
Do you know how to
15 pronounce that one?

16
MR. RANDY BLANKENSHIP : DR. PATRICK: Bucyrus .
Bucyrus .
Bucyrus Community and Lima Memorial

19 Hospital.
Do you see that, Doctor? Yes, I do.

I asked you before 'if you kpew what the
22 practice route was.
Do you recall any discussion
23 with Dr. Patrick between the years '76 and '78 about 24 his using the practice route in emergency medicine?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 221 of 267
Again, we're talking so many years
2 ago.
I couldn't say about those years, but I know
3 that we did talk about the practice route. Okay.

In fact, there wasn't much other way to
6 go.
Well, one of the reasons I asked you to
8 look at this particular application is because I

9 wondered if the names of the hospitals listed there
10 might jog your memory about discussions with Dr. 11 Patrick concerning the practice route. Do they?
Again, this could indicate a practice

13 route. 14
I don't recall the names of the hospitals.

Q
Okay.
Do you --
15
But it certainly would indicate the
16 possibility.
Do you recall having discussions while
18 Dr. Patrick was on staff at any of these hospitals

19 about specific cases or consulting with him even to
20 get into those hospitals?

21
A.
Oh, definitely the Lima was very
22 important, extremely important.

Q
Okay.
There was -- we had just -- let's see.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 222 of 267
Page 2 2 3 ;
1 That was about -- yeah.
F
Shortly after the Heimlich

IJ
i
2 maneuver came out, 1974, I believe it was 1975 that a

i
3 Dr. Victor Esch, who was the chief fire surgeon of
~?
$
Y
4 Washington, D.C., and obviously very knowledgeable

5 about acute emergencies, and I didn't know him at 6 all.
C
f
3
I
&
It says in the Scene -- in the Scene it says a
7 friend -- that I was a friend of Dr. Esch.
j
4
I
.;
Now, you're referring to the prior

9 Scene article, not the one that's at issue in this 10 case, correct?
11
;i
1
f
.j i
1
Heimlich's Maneuver?
e
1 :
Yeah.
* +
R
On page five -MR. ZIRM:

Objection. The pair --
On page five it says:
15 that's Dr. Patrick and I, I imagine -- cited 16 Patrick's Lima case, as well as a case involving Dr. 17 Victor Esch, another friend of Heimlich's who claimed
18 that he, too, had saved a drowning victim by using
19 the Heimlich maneuver in 1974.
I believe it was 1975 that he r e p o r t e d
22 this.
I never knew, let alone being a friend.
It's
23 sort of said in the sense that he reported this

24 because I was a friend of his. I never knew him.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 223 of 267
Page 224 Dr. Victor Esch, there was an article

2 sent to me, not by him, in a newspaper reporting that 3 he was on the beach in Delaware, and the lifeguard 4 was dragging in an unconscious drowning victim, and 5 he helped them drag them in.
The lifeguard then performed CPR on

7 this drowning victim, and after a while turned to Dr.
8 Esch -- this is the story that was published -- that

9 Dr. Esch said, may I try something?
He said, you're
He went over and did the Heimlich maneuver
11 in the lying down position, and water gushed out and
12 the man f u l l y recovered.
1
1
1
He was admitted to the hospital and it

14 showed he had some pneumonic process indicating he
15 had water in his lungs.
This later says but since
16 Esch's case was never reported in a medical journal,

17 it had even less credibility than Patrick's case, I
18 presume. And that's the case from Lima Memorial
1 20 that we started talking about?

Yes.
MR. ZIRM:
Let me move to strike the
previous response. A And the fact is that article, I put
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 224 of 267
Page 225 1 that in an article in the -- the actual report from

2 the newspaper in the Journal of the American Medical
3 Association in 1975 when I was listing some cases of
4 drowning saves.
I met Dr. Esch only once at a medical

6 meeting for about 15 minutes. 7 or after. 8
I never saw him before
I may have talked to him once or twice.

Okay. To make this a friendly -- an act of a
Q
A
10 friend is very, very suspicious.
Then that ties in to -- I think that
12 ties in to what you were talking about with the Lima

13 Memorial residency that Dr. -- excuse me, not 14 residency, but staff position -15
Correct.
-- that Dr. -You asked about a case there. That was the case of Erin Snow, wasn't
19 it, at Lima Memorial?
20
Yes, it was.
That is -- I remember the
21 name because it's mentioned in this article.

22
Q
Right.
That's the case where Dr.
23 Patrick saved -- or resuscitated a drowning -- a

I
24 drowned little girl, is that correct, using the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 225 of 267 Page 2 2 6 1
1 Heimlich maneuver?
*
That is and isn't the right expression. Please correct me. Okay. As he reported it to me, and as
T
5 it was reported I believe in a journal thereafter,

6 and as I understand it was reported in the notes in
I
7 the hospital chart, he told me that this child had
i
?
8 drowned in a lake.
3
3
The ambulance -- they had worked on the 10 child with mouth to mouth, blowing air in the child's 11 mouth doing CPR. The child was -- by the time it got Her heart had
!
I
i
! '
+ I
12 to the hospital, was not breathing. 13 stopped.
Obviously had a lack of oxygen to the body,
14 including the brain, was unconscious.
Dr. Patrick described how he did

16 exactly what would be done in an emergency room. 17 put a tube, an endotracheal tube, as I described 18 before, into the child's trachea.
He
He suctioned out And it's well
19 whatever water he could suction out.
20 known you can suction out water where the tube is,
22 child still did not breathe and did not recover in
He then did the Heimlich maneuver, and
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 226 of 267
Page 227 :
1 water came out of the tube, and then the child
2 started breathing.
And he further described the

3
3 child continued breathing, was obviously totally
4 brain damaged from the time that had passed without 5 oxygen, remained unconscious, and died four days
6 later.
That's the report I got.
You can call
8 that resuscitating in a way, but it was a very
-!
4
I
9 significant thing, because there had been Dr. Esch's

10 case, and by the time of this, there may -- there
a
J
11 were other cases reported, because in '75 I reported

1
1
12 several cases reported to me of drowning saves. But it was very significant. And
14 nothing happened until the maneuver got the water -15 the maneuver gets the water out from the depths of 16 the lung.
And, by the way, I had no knowledge, no

18 concept that the Heimlich maneuver would be
19 successful in drowning.
Subsequently -- and I'd like
20 to tell you about it when we have further discussion,

21 of tests carried out by a life-saving agency.
Okay.
Let me ask you this:
You said
23 what was reported to you was that Erin Snow, that

24 drowning little girl, survived for four days after
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 227 of 267
Page 228
1 she was resuscitated.
Could that have been four
2 months, not four days?

3
MR. ZIRM:
Obj ection.
Or do you remember?
I could be wrong, but I think -- I

6 thought it was -- it could be four months. Let me ask you if any of these --
I might say unconscious with brain

9 damage for as long as it lasted.
10
I understand that, yes.
But breathing.
Yes, sir.
Thank you.
Dr. Heimlich,
13 let me ask you about certain topics to see if you
14 recall discussing these with Dr. Patrick during the 15 time he was at any of these hospitals listed on his
,
I
16 ABEM application. 17 Do you recall any discussion with him
1
I
18 involving one of your resident's research about 19 central lines? Central lines?
Yes, sir.
I don't recall it.

Okay. About chest tubes, interior
I1
24 versus posterior chest tubes, do you recall a
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 228 of 267
Page 229 1 discussion with Dr. Patrick about that?

About tracheostomies? Conceivable, but, again, I -You don't -It was 30 years ago. You don't specifically recall it? It was 3 0 years ago.
9
Do you recall any discussions on -- if
10 I mispronounce this, you can correct me on that, too

11 -- cricothyroidectomy?
12
You said it very well.

Thank you. Again, I don't recall. Do you remember at any point during
16 this time when he was at one of these hospitals him
17 asking you about suturing, and you telling him just

18 to do his best?
Do you remember any discussion about
19 that?
I could have done that.

21 have been a casual exchange.
That would
Okay.
I
But you don't specifically
23 recall that? No.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 229 of 267
Page 230 Thank you, Dr. Heimlich.

2 finished with that exhibit.
3
I think I'm
If a doctor or physician is board
4 certified in emergency medicine, do you know what

5 kind of testing it takes to be board certified in 6 emergency medicine, Dr. Heimlich?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
I don't.
You don't?
I don't.
Okay.
I imagine -- oh, certified by the
board? Yes. If a doctor has been
--
I thought you meant -If a doctor was board certified in
1
I
17 emergency medicine, let's say in 1986, as was Dr.

18 Patrick, do you know what it would have taken at that
I 1
;
19 time for him to become board certified? What kind of

20 testing would have been required to be board
i 21 certified?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
I would not know, but I would assume it
[
I
f
24 was a test showing that he had experience and

m W & iW .r
IY
L . ,
. . , L ' . . ii.
.<
*I,*
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 230 of 267
Page 2 3 1
1 knowledge about the things that can occur in.the
2 emergency room.
So would you know whether it would be
4 accurate to say that a doctor who's board certified
5 in emergency medicine has no training as an emergency

6 doctor?
MR. ZIRM:
~bjection.
Has no training?
Yes, sir.
10 statement?
Would that be an accurate
In his training -- in his -Would it be an accurate statement if a
13 doctor is board certified in emergency medicine to 14 say that such a doctor has no training as an
15 emergency doctor?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
Depends what you mean by training.

18 Depends what you mean by training.
Okay.
I f training is someone standing over
i
/
21 his head or whatever, that's one thing..
Let me show you what was previously

23 marked as Exhibit 38.
Yes.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 231 of 267
Page 232
If you'll look at the photograph of Dr.
2 Patrick in the lower right-hand corner of the first

3 page --
Yes.
-- there's a quote underneath of that
6 photograph that says, quote, There is no evidence
7 that Patrick has an emergency doctor's training, so

8 his presence in the ER is worrisome.
Understanding that Dr. Patrick was, at
10 the time of the writing of this article, a

1 1 board-certified physician by the emergency
-- by the
12 American Board of Emergency Medicine, would that have

13 been an accurate statement?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
(Peruses document.) Dr. Heimlich, do you understand my
17 question?
11
t
Yes.
18
Of course Dr. Patrick did have
19 emergency doctor's training in a practice method,
/ 20 which is the common method at the time, plus his I 21 residency he was in the emergency room.
I1
I
22
So that's not a -It wouldn't worry me. So that would not be an accurate
i 23
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 232 of 267
1 statement that there's no evidence that he has any

2 emergency doctor's training? 3 4
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
No.
That's absolutely inaccurate,
5 false.
As long as you've got Exhibit 38 in
7 front of you, I'm going to call your attention to

8 certain statements in the article.
Sure.
Is that all right -Whatever's easiest.

-- at my age to read that?
Absolutely. It's exactly the same article.
As long as it's the same article, Dr.
Yes.
Okay.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 233 of 267
I t ' s from t h e same p l a c e .

MR.
ZIRM:
J e f f , I j u s t might a s k t h a t
we have i t marked and copied j u s t --

do t h a t .
MR.
FINNEY:
Sure.
W e can
They want your copy You want t o do t h a t now? W e can do
copied, Doctor.
MR.
JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP:
that .
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
W e are off the
record.
The t i m e i s 2 3 5 .
( A b r i e f r e c e s s was t a k e n . )
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.
W e a r e back on t h e
The t i m e i s 3:41.
(Whereupon, P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t Number

3 8 - A was marked f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )
Dr.
Heimlich, you have i n f r o n t of you
-- was a r t i c l e 38.
Yeah.
Okay.
Your copy w e marked a s 38-A.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 234 of 267
r
r
1
I
Page 235
Oh, okay. And I like the larger print, too.
I
I
I I
3 want to ask you about some statements in the article
4 and ask you to -- ask you about those particular

5 statements.
6
The first one is Patrick tended to --
7 the first paragraph.
I
I
i
Say that again. It's in the first paragraph. It's one
10 around which you have brackets. Patrick tended to a I I 11 computer in the cardiac unit. A professor of
1 12 electrical engineering from Purdue, he was merely !

1
i 1
I
13 conducting a study, one that had nothing to do with
14 the hospital's patients or doctors.
Is that true?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection. He was doing a research
Totally false.
! 17 under -- by the way, it is, it still and was always i i 1 18 common to want your residents to do research, and not
i
1 19 all of them could do it, but it was a plus as part of
I1
1
20 a residency.
21
And he
--
this is so false, just
i i 1 22 conducting a study.
He was taking care of patients.
if
t
23 He was dealing with doctors and learning from them.
24 Totally false.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 235 of 267
Page 236
Thank you.
Please look at the next Still, one couldn't
2 paragraph that is bracketed.
3 help but notice that Patrick was a friend, a shadow 4 almost, of Dr. Henry Heimlich, then head of the
5 Jewish Hospital surgery department. Word got around

6 that Patrick helped develop the Heimlich maneuver, a 7 new invention at the time.
MR. ZIRM:
No.
i
I
Is that true?
Objection.
I never knew of any word ever
! 10 getting around then. It was well known throughout
I1
11 the hospital, totally well known that I had developed
I i I j
1
i
12 and proven the maneuver in 1974, and it had been in

13 print in the medical journals.
14 anyone could make that claim.
Q
So I don't see how
Okay.
Look at the next paragraph.
l 5 Most didn't know that Patrick had recently finished 16
17 medical school and that he wanted to abandon
j 18
engineering for the emergency room. Do you know if that statement is true
1t
/
1
19
20 or false?
21
I can't tell what most people knew or
!
I1
I
22 didn't know.
23
I know what I knew or didn't know, and
it would be the same. I certainly knew he i1 24 basically had finished medical school, or he wouldn't
be
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 236 of 267
Page 2 3 7 :
1 there.
And I think every other doctor there would

I
2 know he had finished medical school.

Okay.
I don't think I knew at that time that
5 he wanted to abandon engineering for the emergency

6 room, and certainly the others wouldn't have known.
In fact, throughout his work with you,
8 he has never abandoned engineering, but worked on the
two together, has he not?

MR. ZIRM:
I
Objection. That's correct.
1
I
;
Please look at the next paragraph that

13 begins:
Most didnl t know -- excuse me.
Continuing
14 that paragraph, rather.
I'm sorry?
Continuing that same paragraph. Yes.
i
18
Dr. Felix Canestri, the chief resident, they performed surgeries.
I 19. supervised residents when

i'
I
Continue reading that paragraph through

21 t h e end of the next paragraph with the quote from Dr.
j 22 Ed Matern.
I
I
1
Do you see what I'm talking about?

Yes.
Can you tell us whether t h e r e is
1 23
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 237 of 267
j
I
Page 238
1 anything in that particular section which is true or
2 false? MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
(Peruses document.)
I can't tell you.
5 I cannot tell you whether either doctor said or did
6 not say those words.
I might say that Canestri
7 continues:
So Canestri is baffled to hear that
8 Patrick lists a Jewish hospital residency on his

9 resume.
There are some strange things happening
I 10 here. 1
1
And then when he's told about Dr.
I1 12 Patrick's 28 years in emergency rooms, he -- it says

Ii
!
13 that it came as a shock.
Practicing surgery,
1
I
1.4 Canestri asked incredulously.
All based on what

Yes. All based
1
i
15 appeared to be a phantom residency.
I
iI
16 on what appears to be a phantom residency at Jewish 17 Hospital. 18 19 guy.

2 0 well.
11
t
Canestri -- Canestri is a wonderful He's honest. He completed his residency very
1
j
i
I actually -- when I was a guest professor in
21 surgery in Argentina he assisted me, and therefore I
I
I
1
/
I
t
22 gave him a residency.
And if he said this, it would
23 indicate that somebody has asked him the wrong

24 question.
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 238 of 267
Page 239 MR. ZIRM:

2
Objection.
He is responding to what Patrick would I don't know why. Maybe And
3 do as a surgical resident.
4 somebody asked him.
But as a surgical resident.
5 he's replying honestly this is what would be if

6 Patrick were a surgical resident, not. a resident
7 rotating through surgery.
Thank you.
MR. ZIRM:
Objection and move to strike
the prior response. And, by the way, I already answered

12 this, what appears here, it's all based on what
13 appears to be a phantom residency at Jewish

1 4 Hospital.
1
I
It was a very real, confirmed-in-writing
17 another statement a little further down over on the 18 next page of 38-A.
The paragraph that begins:
There
19 may be some incentive to circumvent this process. 20 But faking medical credentials is foolhardy, nothing
j 21 happens in American medicine without a paper trail.
1
i
22 Few paper trails twist like Ed Patrick's. 23 that?

Yes.
Do you see
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 239 of 267
Page 2 4 0
Now, you've put brackets around your
2 copy of 38-A -- that section of your copy of 38-A,
Yes.
5
Why did you put brackets around your
6 section of that?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
This intimates or really states that

9 Patrick -- we're talking about Patrick faking medical
/
I
i
10 credentials.
I don't see anything that shows Patrick
11 here faking medical credentials, particularly his
12 residency with,us.
Few paper trails twist like Ed

I don't know what that means, but that
1 14 Patrick's.
15 seems to want to confirm the above.
You have put brackets around your copy
17 of the statement a little further down the document

18 which quotes -- states, and I quote, Executives also
I/
i
I
19 indicated he had no record at Jewish Hospital,

2 0 unquote.
21
1
1
Well, I can't say whether executives
22 did or didn't say that, but I see no name of an

23 executive or what the executive was or when such an
Ii
1
,
!i 24 executive said it.

i
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 240 of 267
Page 241 But you know Dr. Patrick was there

2 during his residency?
3
Is that what you're -Objection.
MR. ZIRM:
He had a very firm record at Jewish

5 Hospital.
Okay.
You have put brackets around the
7 paragraph which begins at the bottom of the page:

I
8 The rest of the decade sees Patrick crisscrossing
1i
9 Ohio, with emergency-room stops in Toledo, Columbus,
1 10 and Cincinnati, as well as in podunks like
i
/ I1
I
11 Georgetown, Circleville, and Hillsborough.

By t h e mid-1990s, he becomes even more
i
I
lZ 13 nomadic, getting medical licenses in Kentucky, West
14 Virginia, Georgia, Alabama, and North Carolina.

15 that isn't strange enough, Patrick lists a birth date
\ 16 of 1947 on four of the licenses, though his actual
1
i
I
i
17 birth date is 1937. 18 You have marked that particular
1 19 paragraph as well? Yes.

Why?
MR. ZIRM:
I
Objection.
I want to point out the fact by the
1 24 mid-1990s he becomes even more nomadic, getting
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 241 of 267
Page 242
1 medical licenses in Kentucky, West Virginia, Georgia,
2 Alabama, North Carolina, and that means -- and Ohio 3 and I think in Indiana, I'm not sure.
So that's six
4 or seven medical licenses, nobody challenging his

5 record or his qualifications to get a medical
6 license.
The fact is that six or seven states
7 granted him a medical license based on his record.

8
Q
Okay.
MR. ZIRM:
Move to strike.
You have put brackets around the

11 paragraph beginning: Like all -- like any fortress,
12 the medical p r o f e s s i o n protects itself from invaders

guiding all comers through 14 checkpoints.
15
series
If Patrick fabricated his residency,
16 the natural question is how he made it through each
17 checkpoint, enabling him to practice medicine for 28 18 years. Do you see that? Yes.
Do you have some -- strike that.
21
Do you know whether anything in that
22 paragraph is true or false?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
It says if Patrick fabricated his
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 242 of 267
Page 243
1 residency.
If he fabricated his residency.
The fact
2 is he didn't.
3
Why should that be mentioned here? Okay. If you look at the next part you Dr. Gordon Margolin was
4 have bracketed, it begins:
5 the head of Jewish Hospital's internal medicine 6 department when Patrick was there.
First, he claims Three
7 that Patrick was at Jewish for only one year.
8 minutes later, he's sure Patrick stayed for three
9 years.
Do you know if there's anything in that

11 paragraph which is true or false?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
One has to wonder why that was Thirty years later I wouldn't necessarily
15 on the top of my head know whether someone had been

16 one year or three years, particularly since over that
17 period of time he was still around the hospital on
Okay.
MR. ZIRM:
Move to strike.
Come down to the next-to-the-last 22 paragraph of the page, Dr. Heimlich, that begins:
23 While it was no secret among hospital staff that
24 Margolin had a low opinion of Heimlich and even less
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 243 of 267
1 regard for Patrick, his signature was an enormous
2 favor to both.
It allowed Heimlich's protege to get
3 his Ohio medical license.

4 paragraph?
Do you see that
Yes.
6
Do you know whether there are any false
7 statements in that paragraph?
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
Well, I don't remember Margolin having

10 a low opinion of me.
Maybe he did.
But his
11 signature was, indeed, a favor, but it was not -- it
12 makes it look as if it were done as a favor rather

13 than as his qualifications proved.
So it's very
14 distorted.
MR. ZIRM:
Move to strike.
So would it be your testimony that

17 Dr. Margolin did, or did not sign Dr. Patrick's
18 application for his Ohio license as a favor to you?

19
Oh, we all know that it was signed. But did he do it as a favor to you?
Oh, as a favor to me?
Absolutely not.
22 He was not only on his service, but he was in charge

23 of the residents in general.
24
Okay.
Look at the bottom of the next
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 244 of 267
1 page, Dr. Heimlich, if you would, please.

2
Yes. You have brackets around the phrase:
4 Both doctors have histories of making questionable

5 claims --
Wait a minute.
Wait:
Where are we?
Bottom of page five. Oh, five. Wait. Yes. Okay.
Both doctors have histories of making

10 questionable claims.
Do you see that quote?
Yes.
Do you know whether that's true or

13 false?
14
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
Totally ridiculous, absolutely

16 ridiculous.
At the top of the next page, the first

18 full paragraph refers to the Lima, Ohio case that you 19 and I have already discussed.
Let me ask you this about the Lima

21 c a s e :
Have you ever seen the medical record from the
22 Lima case, the Erin Snow case?

I believe I did some time ago.
Do you know --
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 245 of 267
Page 246
I was very interested in it.

2
Sure.
So you actually saw the
3 emergency-room record on --
I believe I did.
-- on the Erin Snow?
I can't say absolutely, but I remember

7 it so well that I must have.
~ e me t ask you this, Dr. Heimlich:
9 What does it take for a physician in an emergency
10 room, along with nurses in an emergency room, to 11 fabricate a case that occurs in the emergency room? 12 Can that be done? 13 14
MR. ZIRM:
f
Objection.
I suppose it can be done, but what a

I mean, there would be
15 terrible thing it would be.
16 so many people involved, I don't think it would be

17 possible.
Now, towards the bottom of page six,

19 there's a reference to your son, Peter.
And I think
20 you've indicated already that this statement is not

21 accurate; is that correct?
That's correct. Dr. Patrick was not a regular visitor

24 to your family home in the early 1970s; is that
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 246 of 267
1 correct?
2
I never heard of or knew Dr. Patrick
3 until either the fall or winter of '74 or 1975.
Look over at page eight of nine, if you There is a paragraph that
5 would, with me, please.

6 begins:
Recent years have also been hard on the He's been widely denounced -- and I
7 Heimlich legacy.
8 assume this is referring back to you, Dr. Heimlich.
9 He's been widely denounced for his campaign to make

10 the Heimlich maneuver the first response to
11 drowning.
Most believe it's counterproductive and
12 possibly fatal.
Do you know if that's a true statement?
MR. ZIRM:
No.
Objection.
As a matter of fact, I would like
16 to present something in regard to that.

17
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
18
If it's in answer to this question, Dr. Go ahead.
19 Heimlich, please feel free.
I will have to go to the first article

21 that was done by Scene, Heimlich's Maneuver, page two
22 in this version.
Page two:
If he's been routed at
23 scientific conferences, Heimlich still gets a warm
24 reception among the unscientific, including the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 247 of 267
Page 248
1 nation's biggest private lifeguard-training company,
2 which defied prevailing wisdom by instituting

3 Heimlich's maneuver at pools coast to coast.
And his
4 celebrated name allowed him to take his advocacy to

5 the national media, circumventing the medical 6 establishment.
The article you just read --
MR. ZIRM:
strike.
Sorry, Jeff.
Move to
The article you just read from is the

11 article entitled Heimlich's Maneuver, again by the
12 same --
Done by Scene. 14
-- by the Cleveland Scene, published --
15 or excuse me -- written -August 11,

-- August 11, 2004, by the writer
18 Thomas Francis; is that correct?
Correct. Same writer that wrote the article

21 Playing Doctor?
22
Correct. Okay. Go ahead.
It mentions Heimlich still gets a warm
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 248 of 267

i
Page 249
1 reception from the unscientific and speaks at the
2 nation's private lifeguard-training company which 3 defied prevailing wisdom by instituting Heimlich's
1i
4 maneuver at pools coast to coast.
First of all, it should be known that

6 after extensive studies the Red Cross and the Heart
7 Association used the Heimlich maneuver for drowning
8 after CPR failed for 15 years.
And then they did They
9 suddenly change after 15 years of doing that.

10 changed against scientific advice.
The world's biggest -- the nation's
12 biggest lifeguard-training company is Ellis

13 Associates, Jeff Ellis 14 study for six years.
&
&
Associates.
And they did a
For five of those years they
15 used the Heimlich -- they have 35,000 lifeguards,
For five of those years they used the

18 Heimlich maneuver first, and then did CPR when
19 necessary.
And they reported that at the end of the
20 five years, 1995 to 19 -- 1995 to 2001, that's the

21 sixth year.
At the end of the five years they had 23 150 lives saved from drowning using the Heimlich
24 maneuver first, and only -- and 90 -- that was a 97
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 249 of 267
1 percent survival rate.

2
It was well established in the medical
3 literature that CPR for drowning, the death rate is
4 about 50 percent.
Half of the cases die.
But they
5 -- for example, they reported in 1997 the first
6 studies.
In 1995 Jeff Ellis
&
Associates,
7 Incorporated began the use of the Heimlich maneuver

8 as the first action in the rescue of drowning 9 victims.
This is in the first year.
Since then, 90,
10 nine-oh, people have been rescued at our client 11 facilities, and all have survived and lived to enjoy 12 the water another day. Over the five years they had 152 cases
14 with a 97 percent survival.
This is a 14-page report
15 that they put on their website.

And that was --
Year by year. And that was printed in 2 0 0 1 ? MR. ZIRM: Objection, and move to
strike the previous response.

21
A
1995 t o 2001.
And the last year, in
22 the last year they wanted to see if maybe the Red

23 Cross and Heart Association were right.
They did CPR
24 first, and then when -- oh, I might say when the
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 250 of 267

I
Page 251
1 Heimlich maneuver was done first in the first 80
2 cases, they only had to use CPR once.
,
i
i
II
Treatment
When they used CPR first, they reported
4 -- this is on the next-to-last page.
5 outcome.
The Heimlich maneuver was used to clear the
6 airway in 48 percent of the submersion incidents.
7 That's half.
48 percent.
Half would have died if
8 they hadn't used the Heimlich maneuver.
Now, you have a choice.
Heimlich
10 maneuver first, when it fails, use CPR; CPR first,
11 when it fails, use the Heimlich maneuver; or CPR

12 first, and when it fails let the drowning victims
13 die.
All documented.
14
And I might say in this same article,
15 the same article in Scene, they go in to several
16 things.
One -MR. ZIRM: Doctor, let me -- so I
don't have to interrupt you while you're answering -THE WITNESS:

MR. ZIRM:
What?
I don't want to have to keep
having to interrupt you while you're answering.
I want to let you answer.
I just want to make an objection on the
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 251 of 267
Page 252 i
4
record for all references Dr. Heimlich is making to the previous Scene article that's not at issue in this lawsuit. Go ahead, Doctor,
I might say, I believe this is an issue

6 because Dr. Patrick was involved in what the
7 decisions were. 8
MR. ZIRM:
Move to strike.
And it would be a reflection on him if
10 these things were cited as true.
Thank you, Doctor.
MR. ZIRM:
strike.
Objection and move to
14
It says here countering -- the Martin
15 Holly -- countering Heimlich's claims is someone

16 known as Holly Martins, a pseudonym alluding to a
17 character in the 1949 thriller, The Third Man, about

18 a man who learns that his friend is a crook, then
19 helps police catch him.

The modern Holly Martin shadows
21 Heimlich via a website www.heimlichinstitute.com - -
22 that by the way, was taken away from my son who was
23 using that website.
Peter?
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 252 of 267
Page 253 1i
-- holding a giant store of documents,

2 the upshot of which has perpetrated a 30-year medical
3 fraud.
Martins1 crusade culminated last fall in a
4 letter circulated at the highest levels of American
5 medicine, as well as at Deaconess Hospital of

6 Cincinnati, the current home of the Heimlich
7 Institute.
Drowning experts who have seen the site

9 credit Martins for a thorough research and say that,
10 as best as they can tell, Martins1 evidence is 11 legitimate. Lending more credence to Martins' claims
12 is the fact that his challenging of Heimlich's record 13 has been met with silence from the Heimlich camp. 14
After an investigation, it was found
15 that Holly Martins was a pseudonym used by Peter

16 Heimlich, one of a half a dozen pseudonyms. 17
MR. JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP: the record.
Let's go off
THE VI DEOGRAPHER :
record.
We are off the
The time is 4:07.
THE VI DEOGRAPHER :
record.
We are back on the
This is tape two of today's
deposition.
The time is 4 : 1 5 .
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 253 of 267
Page 254 Dr. Heimlich, let me ask you a

2 question:
1'
In your various positions that you have
3 held over the years, have you ever been in a position
4 to hire doctors? Residents. Rzsidents. And that was when you were
7 director of surgery at Jewish?
A Q
Yeah. Have you ever been in any other
10 positions where you hired physicians or doctors? No, I haven't. 12
Okay.
Based upon your experience at
13 Jewish, if you did not have any information about Dr.
14 Edward Patrick other than what you have in Exhibit 38

15 or 38-A, the article by the Cleveland Scene, would
16 you hire him? 17
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
May I refer to this Playing Doctor? Yes, you may.
It says Playing Doctor, the headline in

21 the article in Scene.
Lying on a resume isn't a Luckily, for
22 crime, except when a doctor does it.
23 Edward Patrick, t h e Ohio Medical Board is forgiving.
That says to me that, knowing the rest
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 254 of 267
Page 255
1 of this, that Dr. Patrick is accused by Scene of
2 having lied in regard to his having this residency at 3 Jewish Hospital, and it says he -- the Ohio Medical
4 Board is forgiving.
5
We have here that my son, Peter
6 Heimlich, went to the medical board, and it is 7 stressed here in the previous page, page five -- no. 8 No.
No.
I'm sorry.
On page six at the bottom of
9 the page, speaking of the medical board, Ohio Medical
The board is heralded as one of the

12 nation's most stringent medical regulators, filing
13 more actions against doctors than any board other
14 than -- or populous state.

15
It then tells how Peter Heimlich -- I'm
16 sorry I have to say this -- called the medical board

1 17 on several occasions, all the leaders on the medical
I1
18 board individually, in addition to the surgeon
19 general and assistant surgeon general, and he put in 20 the complaint about Edward Patrick lying.
As I read this, the .,medical board got
I
1
22 the facts, and none of them acted against Dr.
23 Patrick.
They got the facts from a layperson
24 challenging Edward Patrick's having -- claiming that

ia
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Filed 02/07/2008
Page 255 of 267

!
Page 256
1 he didn't complete his residency.
2 formal action.
They took no
There was none.
They spoke to him,
3 all these authorities, medical authorities, and they 4 didn't come up with any action against Dr. Patrick.
And as I thought it over and looked it
6 over, for 30 years -- for 30 years I have found
7 nothing that signifies that anybody of responsibility 8 challenged Dr. Patrick or that the board acted
9 against him.
I n addition, as I said before, he got
10 licenses from six or seven other boards.
MR. ZIRM:
Move to strike.
May I finish?
(Nods head. )
M R . ZIRM:
Objection.
You asked me whether -- would I hire

16 Dr. Patrick on reading this.
Yes, sir. Beyond that, on page four of this Scene

19 paper, it says:
Before hiring a physician, a That's in
20 hospital checks the doctor's work record.

21 this Scene, okay?
T h c n it goes through the many requests
23 that Mr. Bowen had to vouch for his records, and they 24 were all vouched for positively because the papers
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 256 of 267
1 were t h e r e , o k a y ?
(~odh s ead . The v s r y f a c t t h a t t h e r e were s o many

4 r e q u e s t s , when D r .
P a t r i c k i s someone who e n j o y s t h i s
5 t y p e o f emergency m e d i c i n e where h e r e p l a c e s some f o r 6 a p e r i o d -- for a c e r t a i n p e r i o d and t r a v e l s t o t h e s e

7 different states.
MR.
ZIRM:
Move t o s t r i k e . L e t ' s go
All t h e e v i d e n c e i s t h e r e .
10 b a c k t o P l a y i n g D o c t o r .
MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
L y i n g on a resume i s n ' t a crime, e x c e p t

1 3 when a d o c t o r d o e s .it.
Then i t s a y s :
Luckily, f o r
1 4 Edward P a t r i c k -- i n d i c a t i n g h e i s a d o c t o r who h a s
15 l i e d on h i s r e s u m e .
Luckily,
f o r Edward P a t r i c k t h e
16 O h i o b o a r d i s f o r g i v i n g .
17 I d o n ' t see them f o r g i v i n g .
T h e r e was
18 n o crime t o f o r g i v e .
They came o u t when t h e y were
19 c h a l l e n g e d on t h i s i n s t a n c e o n c e by someone c a l l i n g 20 i n . They d i d n ' t f o r g i v e . T h e r e was n o t h i n g t o
21 forgive. 22 Now,
i f I t h o u g h t anybody r e a d i n g t h i s ,
2 3 t h e y m i g h t r e a d f u r t h e r a n d g e t e v e n worse news, b u t
24 t h e y would come b a c k a n d s a y I ' m n o t even g o i n g t o
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 257 of 267
Page 258
1 l o o k f o r t h i s guy's r e c o r d . 2 t o look f o r h i s r s c o r d .
I would.
1
i
I ' m n o t going
H e l i e s and h e n e e d e d a
I t h i n k t h a t would i n t e r f e r e
3 board t o f o r g i v e him.
4 g r e a t l y w i t h Dr. P a t r i c k ' s work i n emergency m e d i c i n e
5 and p r a c t i c e .
So a s a s u p e r
--
MR.
ZIRM:
Move t o s t r i k e .
So a s a s u p e r v i s o r who h i r e s r e s i d e n t s
9 o r physicians,
what i s t h e answer t o t h e q u e s t i o n
1 0 would you h i r e him?

11
MR.
ZIRM:
Objection.
I wouldn't even look t o
On s e e i n g t h i s ,
13 see what h i s record was,
l e t a l o n e n o t h i r e him.
Thanlc you.
1 5 Dr. H e i m l i c h ,
Just a few more q u e s t i o n s , L e t m e show you
and I ' l l b e d o n e .
1 6 w h a t ' s b e e n marked a s D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t

17 me
-- e x c u s e
-- P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t
NNNN.
Have you ever s e e n
1 8 t h a t document b e f o r e ?
T a k e your t i m e and r e v i e w i t .
I believe I did.
19
( P e r u s e s document.)
20 I ' m n o t c e r t a i n , b u t I b e l i e v ' e I d i d .
Do you remember this, when this

22 occurred?
23
Pardon?
Do you remember when t h i s occurred,

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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 258 of 267
I
Page 259
1 what is referenced in the letter?
'
Wel?, it's dated September 19, 1986.

Right. And this is a letter from Dr.
I
4Koop-5
Yes.
--
to Dr. Patrick?
To Dr. Patrick.
And apparently he called -- Dr. Koop
9 called your office as well about this same decision

10 that he had made?
That's correct.
Oh, called me?
No.
The letter appears to indicate that he

13 did call your o f ~ C1 ' ce.
14
Ivlii.
FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
I mean, when you
He left a message.
16 say --
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
He left a message.
Thank you. 22 the court reporter.
You can just give that to
Let me show you what's been

If you see --
23 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 0000.
24 do you see what this is?
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 259 of 267

I
Page 2 6 0
Ii
Yeah.
Appointment to -- application
2 for appointment to medical staff.

Q
If you look at the paragraph right
4 below Dr. Patrick's name, it's for Dearborn County

5 Hospital.
I beg your pardon?
If you look right below Dr. Patrick's

8 name, you'll see that it's for Dearborn County 9 Hospital.
MR. FINNEY:
(Indicating.)
Yes.
Oh, up here.
Yesterday you were presented with a

13 letter that you had received for credentialing
14 purposes from a representative of Dearborn County
15 Hospital.
Do you remember that?
And that letter seemed to indicate to

18 you that Dr. Patrick had applied for a position as a
19 surgeon -Yes.
- - to which you responded.
In fact,
22 however, if you look at page two -- e x c u s e me -- page

2 3 three of the exhibit, page two of Dr. Patrick's
24 actual application -- it would be one -- two -- t h r e e
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 260 of 267
1 -- page four of the exhibit.
Excuse me,
Dr.
2 Heimlich.
Page f o u r of the exhibit.
Yes.
The one that has computer medicine at
5 the top of the page.
Do you see that?
Yes.
L o o k a b o u t t w o - t h i r d s of t h e way down
8 where it says:
9 appointment.
I hereby apply to the hospital for

Do you see that?
On t h e right side of
I h e r e b y a p p l y to
1 0 t h e page i n bold print it says:
11 the hospital for appointment.
We're on this page?

Yes, s i r .
MR.
FINNEY:
Show us about w h e r e , J e f f .
It's right here, Doctor.
MR. FINNEY:
31'1, I s e e it.
(Indicating.)
Do you see w h a t position Dr. Patrick

19 applied for?
Emergency medicine.
Okay.
So if the letter to you s a i d he
22 a p p l i e d for a surgical position, that does not appear

23 to be accurate, does it?
1 would say ~ o t .
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
1
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 261 of 267
Page 2 6 2 i i
(3)
L e t m e show you what h a s b e e n marked a s
2 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t QQQQ.
3 document b e f o r e ?
I don't
Have you e v e r seen t h i s
recall.
It a p p e a r s t o be a l e t t e r from D r .
6 P a t r i c k t o MedChek dated November 1 2 , 1 9 9 5 ,
7 see that?
Do you
Yeah.
The last paragraph of t h a t l e t t e r
10 appears t o be a t t e m p t i n g t o c l e a r up s o m e t h i n g a b o u t
11 b o a r d c e r t i f i c a t i o n i n emergency m e d i c i n e u t i l i z i n g
1 2 t h e r o u t e of combined i n t e r n s h i p , which i s t h i s o n e
13 year a t J e w i s h --
14
Yes.
-- r e s i d e n c y
i n the practice route.
Right.
And w e had talked a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t
t h e p r a c t i c e route b e f o r e .
A
Do
remember t h a t ?
Yes, CJIcay.
Of course.
Is that it? Thst's all.

Now, i f you would, p l e a s e ,
2 3 I'm g o i n g t o h a n d you w h a t ' s been marked a s
24 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t R R R R .
.....,>.
T h i s i s a l e t t e r from t h e
..,
d~...i
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~*..U~+.-3CIC.U,
U.Ilr.,:.......
..,
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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 262 of 267 Page 2 6 3 i
I
1 same lady to whom Dr. Patrick's last letter was
2 directed at MedChek.
Yes.
4
Only this time the letter is directed
5 to you.
And you were questioned about your

8 response to this letter yesterday.
Do you remember
9 that?
10
Yes.
I n fact, your response is attached here
12 to my exhibit.
Yes.
I don't believe, however, the cover
16 admitted as an exhibit yesterday, so I'm going to ask
17 you to look at -- I don't believe the cover letter to 18 which you're responding was attached to the exhibit 19 yesterday, so I have attached that cover letter from
20 MedChek to you.
Yes.
21 22
1i
Here it indicates September 5, 1995,
23 residency program director, Henry Heimlich, M. D., at
24 the Heimlich Institute.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 263 of 267

I
Page 2 6 4
I'm sorry.
Where are you?
I'm lcoking at page one of the letter.

MR. FINNEY:
Yes.
(Indicating.)
This letter is directed to you --
Yes.
-- at the Heimlich Institute.
01-1, 1 : see.
Okay.
Tt then it says name, Edward A.

Do you see that?
Yes.
10 Patrick, 14.D.
Program, residency training.
Yes.
Length of program, three years.
Yeah.
Then graduated, 1976 to 1979.

Yes.
Now, it appears, if you look at page
19 two, your answer, which you said yesterday was
20 inaccurate, appears to have just copied what she put
21 on the cover l e t c e r to yon, doesn't it?

22 MR. ZIRM:
Objection.
Yes.
T k a n k you, Dr. Heimlich.
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 264 of 267
MR, JEFFREY BLANKENSHIP:
Dr. Heimlich,
Thank
I have no f u r t h e r questions f o r you. you for y o u r time today, sir.
THE WITNESS:
T h a n k you.
MR. ZIRM:
I've got nothing. W e are o f f the
TI-fE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.
T h e time is 4 : 3 0 .
(Deposition concluded at 4 : 3 0 p . m . )
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 265 of 267
Page 2 6 6
A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T
,
I
I
I
1
!
!
3 STATE OF OHIO
4 COUNTY OF HAMILTON :
I
I
I
I, H e n r y H e i m l i c h , M.D., have r e a d t h e
7 t r a n s c r i p t of my t e s t i m o n y given u n d e r oath on J u n e
1
I
i
,
I
Having had t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o note a n y
1 0 n e c e s s a r y c o r r e c t i o n s of my t e s t i m o n y on t h e e r r a t a
11 page, I hereby certify that the above-mentioned
I
i:
12 transcript is a t r u e and complete record of m y
1
'
13 testimony.
1
1
14
15
!
I
1 16
1
I
/I
1
!
17
18
HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D.
20
I i
21
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23
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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 266 of 267
Page 2 6 7
1
2 STATE OF OHIO
C E R T I F I C A T E
4 COUNTY OF HAMILJTOM :
I, Renee Rogers, the undersigned, a duly

6 qualified and coxrl~issionednatary public within and 7 for the S t a t e of Ohio, do hereby certify that before
8 the giving of his a:oresaiddeposition, the said
9 Henry Heimlich, M.D. was by me first duly sworn to
10 depose the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 11 the truth; that the foregoing is a deposition given
12 at said time and place by Henry Heimlich, M.D.; that 13 said deposition was taken in all respects pursuant to
14 Notice and agreement of counsel as to the time and

15 place; that said deposition was taken by videotape
16 and by me in s t e n v t y p y and transcribed by 17 computer-aided transcription under my supervision;
1
18 and that the transcribed depcsition is to be

19 submitted t o the witness for his examination and
Ij
20 signature.
I further certify that I am neither
/ 22 relative of nor attorney fur any of the parties to I 23 this cause, nor r e l a t i v e of nor employee of any of i( 24 their counsel, a n d have no i n t e r e s t whatsoever in the
'
Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
Document 119
Filed 02/07/2008
Page 267 of 267

I
Page 268 1
1 r e s u l t of the aeiion.
2
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I hereunto set my hand
3 and o f f i c i a l seal of office at C i n c i n n a t i , Ohio, this
4 18th day of J u n e ,
5
8 M y Commission Expires:
Renee Rogers
Notary Public-State of Ohio
9 April 13, 2011

10

My Father's Depositions in Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (2007)

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My Father's Depositions in Edward A. Patrick MD PHD v. Cleveland Scene Et Al (2007)

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Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Edward Patrick, Plaintiff, VS.

CASE NO. 05-CV-2797

Videotaped deposition of Henry Heimlich, M.D.,

Patterson Co., LPA,

k,>,'+h & *d--

2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:

It is stipulated by and among counsel for the

4 respective parties that the deposition of Henry

11 and transcribed by her out of the presence of the

13 submitted to the witness for his examination and

3 HENRY HEIMLICH, M.D. By Mr. Zirm

My name is Rich The court

Ramey, today's video technician. reporter is Renee Rogers.

the time is 9:40 a.m.

Counsel will now introduce themselves

My name is Kenneth Zirm.

I represent Dr. Edward

Randy Blankenship, co-counsel for Dr.

I 'm Christopher Finney,

Dr. Heimlich here.

We just met this morning.

couple of kind of guides or pointers.

understand one of my questions, and I will rephrase it or restate it so that you

Can I help out Dr.

Sure. Doctor, you said -- you I ve

-- and had your deposition

taken in that context.

Yes. So in other lawsuits

Yes. The other thing

okay? THE WITNESS:

k led 0210 /I2008

Page 8 HENRY HEIMLICH, M. D,

Could I first ask you what, if

7 anything, you've done to prepare for today's

You mean other than his

conversations with his attorney? MR. ZIRM:

Other than -- I don't want to know

13 anything that you've talked to your attorney about.

17 of the material that you recall reviewing?

Oh, I read Kraft's testimony. Okay. I can't remember. Okay.

But you did see

Some other stuff I read that

Your counsel handed to me this morning

5 years on behalf of Dr. Patrick. 6 those?

Did you review

Yes. Okay. Prior to seeing Dr. Patrick this

9 morning, when is the last time you've spoken to Ed

I can't even remember.

Have you had any conversations with him

14 about this lawsuit that he has brought?

16 the possibility at one time.

So around -- you think you may

18 have spoken to him around the time the article was

I really don't recall.

And how about Dr. Patrick's

22 lawyers, either of the Mr. Blankenships; have you

23 spoken to them prior to today?

Case 1:05-cv-02(91 -LW

bled UZIU /IZUU8

I understand you went to Cornell

That's correct. And where did you serve your residency,

Well, after the war -- I had an That was before