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ENGAGEMENT
STRATEGIES
MAGAZINE
MAXIMIZING PERFORMANCE AND PROFITS THROUGH PEOPLE

Face to Face
With Curt
Coffman
…Management Guru
and Co-Author of
First, Break All the Rules,
on the Art (and Science)
of Enterprise Engagement
 Culture, Leadership, Engagement:
Getting

Close
to the Action
A revealing Q&A with Curt Coffman, author of First, Break All
the Rules – What the World’s Greatest Managers Do Differently,
on the key role of engagement in corporate culture

T
he concept of enterprise engagement – improving
corporate performance by seeking ways to engage
customers, channel partners and employees through a
comprehensive, holistic approach – may seem new to some,
but it actually has a long and well documented history. World-
renowned research firm Gallup, for instance, has been analyzing
the connection between employee engagement, customer
engagement and corporate performance since the late 1990s.
And nearly a decade ago, the Harvard Business Review reported
that “research has clearly and consistently proved the direct
link between employee engagement, customer satisfaction
and revenue growth.”

To gain a greater appreciation of that unique and historic

research perspective and better understand why engagement
has become so pervasive and important to companies around
the world, Engagement Strategies Magazine (ESM) recently
sat down with Curt W. Coffman, Senior Founding Partner of the
Coffman Organization, to discuss the past, present and future
of enterprise engagement.

40 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009

%3-0ERHAPSWECANSTARTBYTALKINGABOUTYOUR
Culture, Leadership, Engagement
the customer. And probably the most significant thing
WORKWITH'ALLUPANDTHEIRRESEARCHINTHEAREAOF we learned doing that book is that customers aren’t
ENGAGEMENT loyal by nature. Customers are switchers by nature,
but they’re naturally predisposed to have emotional
#OFFMAN I was with the Gallup organization for 22 ties to the people they do business with. So once
years and specifically headed up both the employee again it’s not an attitudinal thing like customer
and customer engagement consulting practice. And satisfaction. It’s the degree to which customers are
through those 22 years – and both before and since – emotionally engaged with the people they’re buying
I have always been interested in what it is that creates from. And that research really changed how Gallup
exceptional performance for employees within their helped organizations approach both their employees
jobs and, for customers, what creates that emotional and their managers.
loyalty toward the brands they use. As early as
1999, our research began to tell us that it wasn’t %3-!NDWHEREHASYOURPOST 'ALLUP
simply about satisfaction with either employees or WORKTAKENYOU
customers.
#OFFMAN Frankly, the items that we use to measure
%3-7HATWASTHEKEYFACTORYOUR highly productive cultures today aren’t necessarily
RESEARCHUNCOVERED what they were 10 years ago, because employees
%3-/NETHINGTHATCOMPANIES have become more sophisticated. Employees have
#OFFMAN It was the degree to which employees were
SAYABOUTTHESUPPORTINGDATA
emotionally engaged with both their organization and
ONENGAGEMENTISTHATWEHAVE
the customer – or with the people they did business
RESEARCHTHATCORRELATESENGAGED We’re not going to be more
with. That drove us to compile the research and write
WORKFORCESENGAGEDCUSTOMERSAND
our first book, First, Break all the Rules: What the
HIGH PERFORMINGORGANIZATIONSnBUT productive by working harder,
World’s Greatest Managers Do Differently. In that
AGAINITSAQUESTIONOFWHICHCAME
book we tried to answer the question: What is it that
lRST$OESTHEENGAGEMENTCREATETHE we’re going to do it through
technology, having the right
makes up a great workplace? And specifically, what
HIGHPERFORMANCEORDOESTHEHIGH
we found is that an organization really doesn’t have
PERFORMANCECREATETHEENGAGEMENT
talents to fit the job and through
one culture that’s overriding. It has many of what I
#OFFMAN
call “little C” cultures, which exist at the local level

the relationships by which we

and are probably made up of the five or seven or
nine people you work together with every day. In
fact, an organization probably has as many “little C”
cultures as it has managers and supervisors, because multiply our effectiveness.
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we found that the manager and the supervisor are a
critical catalyst for creating that engagement. become more focused on “Who’s my manager?”
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and “What are some of the other emotional
compensation issues that I’m going to get – not
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don’t leave organizations. They leave a relationship
just money?”
a
sense all of a sudden that culture really is determined So from that we focused the microscope a little
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discovery has been around the fact that that, while
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perspective, largely driven by leadership. And then it
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which those two [cultures] are in alignment.
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#OFFMAN The follow-up book to First, Break All the #OFFMAN This is going to be critical in the next
SJDHDPN
Rules was Follow This Path, which really focused on few months because we’re going to have a lot of
continued on page 42

SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85

 Culture, Leadership, Engagement
continued from page 41
organizations starting to emerge from this difficult
climb with a whole new set of strategies. And if you
think about it – if what keeps high-performing people
is that relationship with the manager and the alignment
of the big C and little C cultures – that’s something CEOs
have never had to think about before. Because now, their
new strategies are going to be dependent on the culture
to get them done – or, conversely, to help them fail.
%3-$OYOUHAVEANYSUGGESTIONSFORMANAGING
THOSETWOCULTURESANDKEEPINGTHEMINALIGNMENT
#OFFMAN Absolutely. Let me start with the big C. The
big C is now demanding a whole new leader. We’re
just coming out of a period where, for a number of
decades, we’ve had “in-or-out leadership.” Let me
explain that.
Draw a circle and put a dot in the middle. Let’s say
that dot is the CEO, or it’s the head of a department
The great leaders of tomorrow
are going to be those who involve
the people closest to the action.
– a leader at that big C level. Then you put dots
representing people inside the circle around that CEO,
and you also put some dots outside the circle. Now,
the greatest fear of the people within the circle would
be getting kicked outside the circle. And the greatest
fear of the people outside the circle would be never
getting in – or losing their jobs altogether.
So leaders have historically been managing
from that in-or-out leadership position, and it has
caused a fear of being kicked out, so no one will
step up and say, “Maybe it’s not a good idea to
take the corporate jet to Washington to ask for
$29 billion in aid.”
Now we’re beginning to understand that great
leadership is about collaboration – about having and
knowing when you have enough information to make
a good decision. And we know that diversity drives
great leadership. That’s the new big C.
%3-3OTHENEWhBIG#vCOLLECTSMOREINPUTFROM MANAGERINALLOFTHIS4HEMANAGERSINALLTHOSE
ALLOFTHEhLITTLE#SvnORALLOFTHEEMPLOYEESINAN hLITTLE#SvWILLHAVETOSHARETHEVISIONANDHAVEALL
ORGANIZATIONnMORESOTHANINTHEPAST THETOOLSANDSKILLSTHEYNEEDINORDERTOCREATEAN
#OFFMAN Yes. But the true test of a leader is when
they can still collect all that information without losing
42 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009
their mind. The leader of tomorrow is going to be the
leader who knows when they’ve collected enough and
they can crack off the decisions. My prediction is the
best decisions come as close to the action as possible,
and the great leaders of tomorrow are going to be
those who involve the people closest to the action to
be able to make those decisions and implement that
strategy.
%3-%MPOWERINGTHOSEONTHEFRONTLINESTOMAKE
LEADERSHIPDECISIONSONBEHALFOFCUSTOMERS
#OFFMAN Exactly. Just think of how many out-of-touch
decisions upper managers make, and the people close
to the customer can’t imagine how or why they were
made. We see that every day, and it’s demoralizing for
the customer and for the employee.
%3-7HATARESOMEOFTHETHINGSTHATMAKEUPTHE
hBIG#vANDTHEhLITTLE#vINORGANIZATIONS
#OFFMAN Our research tells us that three things make
up the big C and little C. One is growth. Either you’re
growing or you’re dying. And when we talk about
growth in the high-productive cultures we study, it
tends to be people who are striving to build growth,
not buy it.
Second is the quality of relationships within that
culture. It’s the degree to which we’re all working
together. The silos of yesterday are gone. The
protectionism of individualism is gone. We have to
have a broader purpose.
The third dimension is probably the most
controversial, but we find it in the most productive
organizations – and that is what I’d call, for lack of
a better term, a servant focus. That’s where “It’s
not about us – it’s about the people we’re bringing
products and services to and how we’re thinking
about them, and how we can better serve them.”
The customer. The marketplace. And that can apply
to internal as well as external customers. If you think
about it, that servant focus reengages the person
who has it or does it. When we’re bringing something
to somebody else, we are, in turn, receiving and
becoming more engaged.
%3-(OWIMPORTANTISTHEROLEOFTHEMIDDLE
ENGAGINGCULTUREATTHELOCALLEVEL4HATSOUNDSLIKEA
BIGJOB
continued on page 44
Culture, Leadership, Culture, Leadership, Engagement
Engagement
continued from page 42

#OFFMAN Well, first of all, let’s get definitional. We’ve the manager as the first chair of woodwinds, and
been treating managers as a rung on a ladder. And their focus is that group, that woodwinds group
we’ve also been treating them as leaders in waiting. performing at exceptional levels and contributing to
But the role of the leader and the role of the manager, something broader.
we find, are very different.
So we may actually have too many leaders and not
I think about it in terms of an orchestra director enough straight managers. And what we need to
– as having the focus of all the different pieces realize is that leaders are about creating a better
coming together. That’s a leader. But I think about tomorrow, while managers are about creating a
better today. Leaders need to prepare
managers to be able to make the
TO BUILD A WORLD CLASS broad message more individual,
more specific and more focused.
SALES ORGANIZATION, %3-,ETSGOBACKFORAMOMENTTO
%3-/NETHINGTHATCOMPANIES
YOU NEED THE
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HIGHPERFORMANCEORDOESTHEHIGH
PERFORMANCECREATETHEENGAGEMENT TALENTS TO GET THEM
#OFFMAN
ENGAGEANEMPLOYEE
BOOST YOUR SALES FAST BY
MAXIMIZING YOUR TEAM’S
PERFORMANCE AND
SELLING MORE TODAY.
TURN UNDERPERFORMERS
INTO SUPER-ACHIEVERS
IN LESS THAN 30 DAYS.
TOENGAGEACUSTOMERTHANITISTO

#OFFMAN Yes it is. And that’s where
we’ve really missed the boat these
last 20 years. Our research says the
concept that the customer is always
right – that customers know exactly
what they want and the form in which
they want it, for the price they want
it – is just simply not true.

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ATTRACT AND RETAIN
This really challenges conventional
wisdom, and it’s a pretty big
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TOP SALES TALENT.
“ah-ha!” You and I as human beings
BUILD AND MANAGE have needs that we can’t meet
*%&"5*0/
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HIGH-PERFORMING somebody outside ourselves to meet
SALES TEAM. them. Think about how you feel when
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feel frustrated and vulnerable. And
NAMED 2008 SALES LEADERSHIP BOOK OF THE YEAR would a customer be a customer if
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So they’re coming in frustrated and
vulnerable, and they don’t necessarily
Keith Rosen: 2009 Sales Education Leader of the Year. like being in that position. But we’ve
Visit the globally recognized authority on sales and sales leadership at been treating them like they’re always
www.ProfitBuilders.com for free sales training videos, coaching tools for right – like they know exactly what
managers and podcasts. Email info@profitbuilders.com or call 516-771-1444 they want. And what we’ve done is
for more information on this book or to contact Keith Rosen regarding his we’ve ignored the vulnerability.
SJDHDPN
sales coaching, executive coaching and management coach training programs.

Now, think about that. When

continued on page 84
SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85
 Culture, Leadership, Engagement
continued from page 44

someone ignores your vulnerability, that destroys INTERMSOFNEEDSANDVULNERABILITIESnHOWDOES

loyalty. But when somebody connects to your
vulnerability, sees you as vulnerable, sees you as a
person who is coming in with needs that they can’t
meet themselves, and they connect with that, that’s
where trust and loyalty are built. It comes down to
simply trying to understand where the person is
and where they want to be.
THATDIFFER
#OFFMAN The employee’s vulnerability isn’t the
same as the customer, but there are some basic
needs that are tickets to admission. Job security is a
ticket to admission. So is being challenged by one’s
work. Feeling as though I’m fairly treated with pay
and benefits is a ticket to admission.

%3-!NDTHEDYNAMICONTHEPARTOFTHEEMPLOYEE Engagement is related to some broader issues –

like being challenged by one’s work,
feeling as if my manager really

POWER OF NICE
knows me, walking away every day
THE knowing the value that I bring to
the organization. With employees
EMPLOYEE RECOGNITION PROGRAM there’s a new need for relationship
and collaboration and diversity
because that’s the only way they’re
going to be productive. We’re not
Based on going to be more productive by
the principles working harder, we’re going to do it
developed in the through technology, having the right
talents to fit the job and through the
best-selling book,
relationships by which we multiply
this powerful our effectiveness.
recognition
program can help %3-7HICHCOMESlRSTINYOUR
ESTIMATIONnENGAGINGEMPLOYEESOR
IMPROVE... ENGAGINGCUSTOMERS
t
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#OFFMAN That is the age-old question
and Engagement
that has no right answer, except to
say that you have to do both. If you
t
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and Teamwork put me up against a wall, I would say
let’s start with engaged employees
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NUMBEROFYEARSNOW7HYHASIT
TAKENSOLONGFOR53COMPANIESTO
Learn how Linda Kaplan Thaler, CEO and Robin Koval, President built The Kaplan Thaler UNDERSTANDANDACCEPTTHENEEDFOR
Group into one of the country’s fastest growing advertising agencies by practicing The ENGAGEMENT7HATARESOMEOFTHE
Power of Nice. From start-up ten years ago to over a billion dollars in billings today OBSTACLESTOTHATUNDERSTANDING
(including the creation of the famous “Work Hard. Fly Right” campaign for Continental
Airlines and the Aflac Duck), Kaplan Thaler and Koval’s philosophy prove you absolutely #OFFMAN Well, a lot of companies
can conquer the business world with kindness. [like Gallup] – their product is a
survey. They’re out to sell a survey.
For information about how you can use And the problem is you don’t fatten
The Power of Nice Employee Recognition Program in your company,
visit: www.thepowerofnice.com or call Ira Ozer at (914) 238-2220.
the cow by just weighing it every
day. There has been a lot of focus
on the survey, the data collection,

84 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES SUMMER 2009

 Culture, Leadership, Engagement
the reporting of the data and almost nothing on
manager development.
It’s my mission going forward to use the survey
dimension only to create a student of the manager
and the employee. You get employees engaged
in their own learning, their own growth and the
building of a great culture. And with managers,
you have to bring the learning to where they’re at
to give it relevancy. So you talk to managers about
not just doing a job performance evaluation once
a year; you talk about daily feedback.
Those are the things that will create
real transformation in an organization.
clearly defining the difference between leadership
development and manager development – all of the
things we’ve been talking about.
So let’s get past the survey stuff and manipulating
the results and get to really engaging the culture in
your organization. It’s pretty simple, isn’t it? And it
makes a lot of sense. That’s one good thing about
research – when you do good research it brings you
back to common sense. ESM

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PERFORMANCECREATETHEENGAGEMENT

#OFFMAN Well, it’s both. We know

that strong culture is definitely tied
to high performance. And engaged
employees and engaged customers
are part of that culture. But working
for a company like Google has an #3&"5)&
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that each one drives. And the point of
highly productive cultures is getting
and keeping the circle moving in the
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performance which drives engagement /PUIJOH
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dimension that’s part of something
bigger called a highly productive
culture, which is really the goal. Now,
within that is a new customer strategy.
And in that is a new employee
engagement strategy. And in that, communications
most importantly, is the new manager SJDHDPN group ®

Creating More Relevant Interactions ®

development strategy. And that means

SUMMER 2009 ENGAGEMENT STRATEGIES 85