sono (Christos military an inteigance corner: WWI Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war (oF 815) ais Proximo loge far um blog Losin Christos military and intelligence corner Miltary and intelligence history mostly dealing with World War I urea, Jy 19,2012 warts WWII Myths - T-34 Best Tank of the war Top ‘The Soviet 34 tanks wellknown by anyone who has an interest in WA history. National ‘Books. articles, documentaries present itn iumphant tems. twas superior to Security everything the Gormans had, it had revluonary sbped amer. unprecedented mebitly Resource ‘and was ane ofthe reasons the Soviet side wan in the Easter frat, ow elec ae hn stort? Wo feel ar ining wenn? How dt apart Geran ard West ark? How prom tng we? eyo tcswor tose insta by longa ata Sth ngs sat change nstnd Oa Sapa mecrclmanelw ea oy dso bal aba system tse Monte eeu soe! ren’ Catan an. Donate Lots stat with doburking some ofthe most common stataments ‘The revolutionary design of he 7:34 Seach ‘The 7-3 was supposed tbe the fat ak that employed sloped amor. This charactor moar that he armor prtoton was sical enhanced, compared ee Eira amor However French tanks of that pared ike the SOMUA S35 and the se Rena R25 als had sloped arr. index Meracnethece wore sever problems created bythe sloped amor in the ron, he ear and the back of the vile, Tis choice serous dimiahed the eal space o! the T ‘com repens 5H. Tanks re abays cron on he ae, Tho -94 homaver had a hag problem «+ TOM oer Googe Doss tent came ln etre Se. 2 rowers The ined apace rot nly afected crew perfomance but ued the 7-4 ino a deathiap, RUS sty rom the Korean War (sed orth T2485 ta Was roomler abate than he T1476 concise that the ted inomal space a pnataon ty XAT Ache (Bt) AEV (Bt) Agents toured veal led othe destruction ofthe ark andes of 75% ofthe crew. Inthe codes (23) Allied codes Shorman te fz was ont 1% (0 tases ony 18% (81) Axis codebreakers onan aks tke to Pz Land Pz WV had a conventional design buhay abo used (28) ers gy Bletchley slope inthe mie pro hk ofl armor. The raw Pantor ark was to fst ark ve Berlin (38) boon (Goran tank to have a fuly sloped hl ront and stoped sides howover the armor layout at it iteral space kein the T-34 review (19) Brish ones (23) phony (6) disnlomaton —(@) "Te tt so suis om uk of po na 8 ped at atte Eastem front (38) Engra. (16) Forschungeant movenen (14) France 1940 (13) German ‘Amarican experts whe examined a T-34 at the Aberdeen testing grounds in 1942 ned this codebreakers (12) German tosay communicators (6) GRU @) gets (7) (lin codes (5) ‘The main weaknees is that is very tight, The Americans could understand how eur Japan (12) KGB (11) Lofwate hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! usrsono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war tankers could ft inside ding a winter, when they wear sheepskin jackets (10) M-138 strip (29) 208 (16) sis (2) 126 14) mstey racine @) NA‘fica campaign Sam Seetmifine (18) Neutrals codes (13) ‘Apa {rom the limited intemal space there were two more serious design flaws. Normandy 1944 (22) NSA (31) OKHIGANA (43) (Ore was the ack of uret basket (a rotating floor that moves as the ture tums) forthe OK Chi Stele (17) loader. This meant thatthe parson lading the shale had to follow the movement ofthe OKWICHi (42) oss 410) {un an a he same time Keep an aye onthe floor so he does tip onthe sper Fans (9 partean coves (7) Pers sigs, Z (18) Polsh codes (11) Purple machine (6)RAF (11) Reforat 12 ‘The oer maar ssue was te two-man tet which forced the commander to also ae as (12) Role Kapole (6) Russian tho guano. This dasticaly mited combat perfomance a the commence could not FISH (21) SD (12) soe ¢ focus on leading the tank but instead had to engage targets Soviet Codes (36) Spies (88) 1-34 (15) rico A tvoe-man tut was ral inroduced wit the T2485 in March", (tor (10) USA codes ‘Asmor spalling (38) ws Poot 7 what € (10) ww2 stats (42) WWII ‘The armor of he 24 had a high Brine ating, mearing it was very har. This wa Myths (44) advantageous in defeating antitank rounds of caliber equal or lave tothe ames thickness but had the sadvarcage that it could lea to spalling. Combined with ‘manufacturing Haws in the consrvcton of the tank this meant thatthe T-34s crew was. reat ses ten in canger even wien hit by tank rounds that did rot penetrate the armor. US Amy Contr ofMitary History The study ‘Review of Soviet ordnance metalury’, 2-5 says: ‘The War Nore The Lua, 193-45 The Crusader Projet Tho armor components of the 34 tank, with the excopton of the bow casting which was unhoattreated, wore heat-treated to very high hardness (43050 Brine), probably in an attempt to socure maximum resistance to penetration by cortain classos of armor- bloring projectiles even a ho expense of sructual ntegity under baltic attack ‘The quality ofthe aor steels ranged fom poor to excellent. Wide variations in _produetion technique were incated; some rolled amor components were wel ross (peraton Barborossa rolled while others were vitualy straightaway rled.....The Bow casting ofthe T-4 Nunes Usan inevial {ank was vory unsound and would have boon rejected under American standart Studies Nick projet ‘Shatow penetration, poor usin, sovero undercutting, porosity, and cracking was ebsorved in most of the wolds and probably ested from improper manipulation of Cloctrodes which might et have had sutebe operating characteris... These obvious detects, together with low strength and pour metalgical structure of fete weld ‘depos, ciate tha he welded ints wauid have poor resatance to severe shock: Kakypabg Ineinews The rests obtained from the metallurgical examination ofthese ery word war Sovet + Frode Welends GypiaCetar tanks have bean dosenbed in some doll since they are exactly the same 2s have boon 4 European As Signa neler ‘btanad from al examinations porformed since then of Soviet tanks which wore In wert War recovered in Germany after th end of world wari ad an Soviet tanks which were + Elsbunycom captured n Korea cing 1950-82. The Ordnance Corps has examined several Savet JS- + Dis Weblog I ation were found in Germany and several Soviet T= tanks from both Germany and poe Kova, Coptcrack Cceyprocllar Talos asic Foun Anatoly Klopov's mu blog ‘Some of the ama steals have surprisingly high toughness considering the very high harness levels but many ofthe amor steals, even the softer anes, are vary itl, “Th very high hardness encourtered in most Soviet tank sem has caused much unnecessary concom regarding the relative baltic prfarmance ofthe hard Soviet armor {and the softer American amor. Many people associate high hardness wih igh Fotowere resistance fo penetration. Although thsi tu, within ls, inthe case of attack of ‘armor by undiermatching projectiles (i.e. caliber of shot is less than the thickness of the Join this site o arm) particulary at ow obligates of attack, defintely not tue when the amor is we Goon Friend Carwc tacked by larger caliber shot at higher obliques of mpact Members (25) i: Automotive performance (Chis suspension ‘The Civitio suspension used onthe -34 had the advantage that allowed for high speeds on rad. Its disadvantages were that it ook a lot of internal space and it had poor sabilty in rough tera ‘A Geran testo ark pling motion al the Kummarsdot esting facity (thm undated ‘Aroaay amenbe? S| rack) showed thatthe T-38 ha the wort stablty compared to the Pz IV, Tiger, ‘Sherman and Panther (2). Blog Archive > 207409) hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012/07twwi-myths-+-3-bestark-o- warm! 2187sono (Christos miliary an inteligonce corner: WWI Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war > 2015 (132) ¥ 2012143) > December (6) > November (12) > oxter@y > Septomser(14) August (13) sui 0) Japanese inarestin Russa Tadlosaltpe, ad. Japanosa codebrosker of ‘wt pate voy Best Tank Soviet navel codes and he According to the study Engineering analysis ofthe Russian T3486 tank’ the main veluesteee fer was the lack of shock absorbers (3) Prosem was the ack of shock ® Forschungsat succes wih “The Chvstie suspension was a technological deat-end and the Aberdeen evaluation Polish iplomatctink sayst"The Christ's euspension was tested long tine ago by the Amencans, and RAF Fight! Command Lunconaitonaly rejected. It was roplaced in postwar Soviet tanks with the torsion bar seanghh 1839-45 system, same as the T-34M and TAS prototypes intended to replace the T-34 ding the American explain of Soviet Us mttianyatacns codes of wo wi asa Pee re > une (22) > hay 19) ‘Aater mor problem was the ural gearbox. I had poor rl ably and needed > ponitiap excessive force to change gears, leaing to dive aigue. The study Enginering te analysis ofthe Russian T3485 tank’ says (4 ieee > February (12) “There rough stering ve fo the use of latch and brake stewing cot and culty > Jansoryite) In siting de to tho use ofa spur gor clash-shit transmission and mle dy-ltch, ‘making diving this tank afew and very fatiguing ob Initially the powsrfulV-2 engine (500%p) could not be used tothe flat us to the 4 speed gearbox (). Changing gears requied excessive force on behaf ofthe criver. The “me .3# could use the &th gar only on a paved road us the max speed over cross-country Christos was theoretically 25 kmh but in practice twas only kmh because changing from 2" |Asimple economist wih an 22" to 3 requires superhuman sirenath ‘anneal intretin mit ana Intigence nto. Cn later modcations there was a Speed gearbox which alowed fra cross county View my complot prose speed of 30 kmh Powerful aun? ‘Te T-34 hada large caer gun, Th inal version was the L-11 76mm of 30.5 calibers. This was quickly replaces with the F-34 7émm of 42 calhers and the T2485 had the ZIS 5.83 85mm of 54.6 ears. ‘The caliber numbers look impressive. Mtr all the main German tank of 1847-48 Pz I hha a 50 mm gun and that of 1943-45 Pe IV had 75mm, Hawover Soviet tank gun suffered rom low velo leading to poor penetration and accuracy at ong ranges. For example the intial ound velosty (ms forte Soviet guns (6) (using the standard ATT round) was: L-11 - 612, F-34~655 (a German ost with P2939 ammo showed 625), ZiS ‘53-792. The comparable German sta (7) were: KwK 28 L/42~ 685, Kwk 29 L180 835, Kwk 401/43 740, Kw 40 L148 790, Kuk 42 ~ 925, ‘The Kwk 40 75mm use by the Pz IV and tg fom mid 1842 hac fr beter penetration performance and accuracy than the F-34 and the Panthe’s KWK 42 was also super to the Zis S-59 85mm inthe same areas. Lok of rio Inaly only the unit commanders tank hada ras, In tho cours of th war aio was sed moro widely but even in 1944 many tanks lacked a radio sol. Th lack of radio meent that Soviet ark units operted with litle coordination. hitpichris-intel-coener blogspot com ri2012)07twwi-myths--3-est tanksono hitpichris-intel-coener blogspot com ri2012)07twwi-myths--3-est tank CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war Visibility problems CGaman combat reports show that T= tanks had serous eifficutie in navigating tain and identifying targets. The problem was thatthe vision devices made it hard for the ‘vor nd the gunna to 800 what was happening ‘This problem was patil adaressed during the wa. ‘The T-36 1961 version’ lacked the wsion cupola found on German tanks. Tis equipment gave the commander a 360° view of his surcundings. Also the optics were of poor ‘wal: ‘The T-8¢ 1948 vrsin’ had a larger tuet and a German style cupola ‘The T-34/8, introduced in March 44 had new lage turet and the Geman style cupola However the quay of Soviet optics combined withthe ited watt rom inside the tank afected combat performance. A German uni that used the T-347 model "43 in combat rote (8 ‘The gun sgh in Russian tanks ar ar bohind tho Garman designs. The Gorman gunners noed to be theroughly accustomed to the Russian telescopic gursights. Tho ‘bit fo spot 2 it trough the gunsiht fe very lied” “in@ Russian tonk i aifieult to command @ Panzer ora nit and atthe same tine 2010 88 the guner Therefor fre drcton forthe entre Kompans is hardy possible, {and the concentrated effect ofthe unit's frepowar is lost. The commands cupola on the T 43 makes easier to command and fre atthe same time: however, vision ivory lite to five very smal and rarow sits. "Safe diving and sure command ofboth the T 43 and SU 85 cant bo achieved with the hatches closed We base ths statement on our experience that onthe fist day In combat In tho Jassy bidgoboad, four Boute:Panzor got stuck i tho tench systor and could’ {ol foe wih thoi own power, resulting in the destntion of German defensive weapons Chrng the attempt to retreve ther. The same thing happened onthe socand dy. Rolabity probiems, ‘The T.8# was supposed tobe a simple and rugged vehicle that seldom broke down. ‘Authors like to compart tothe more complex German tanks that supposedly broke down often. The concept ofthe 34 asa rolable tank is ancther myth of WIL ‘The majonty of vehicles in 191 were lst due to equipment malfunction, The same raibilty prebioms continued during the period 1942-44. The evacuation and relocation of Industral fecities combined withthe loss of skill workers cou ony laa to te fal of rally In 194% T-34 tanks often had to cay a spre vansmission sapped en the back to counter equipment fale (8) In 1942 the stuation worsened since many vehicles could ‘only cover small stances bef breaking down, In the summer of 1942 the following Stalin order was issued to unts (10) ‘Our armored forces ad thor units frequen sufergroater losses though mechanical breakdowns than they don atl. For example, at Stalingrad Front in six days twolve of cur tank brigades ost 326 out oftheir 40 tanks. OF those about 260 owed to mechanical warnsono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war ‘problems. Many ofthe tanks were abandoned onthe bated. Simlr instances can be ‘absonied on other ots. Since such high incidance of mechanical defects is Implousiblo, the Supreme Headauatrs $008 iit coven sabotage and wrecking by Certain oloments in tho tank crows who ty fo expat small mechanical roublos fo avoid bate Henceforth, every tank leaving the Batol fr alleged mechanical reasons was to be gone over by tocricians, and f sabotage wes suspected, the crow’ Wore fo be pt into tank punishment companies oF “degrades fo the infarry” and put ito infantry punishment companies. The situation continve tobe problematic even in 1843-4, ‘Tore were constant problems withthe goarbox andthe engine iter. The Abordoen cevalusors notes ‘On the T-34 the transmission i sso very poor. When it was being operated, the cogs completly flo pieces (an al the cogw heels). A chemical anaiysis of the cogs on the Cognos showed tha tho thar tratment is vory oor and ds notin any way ‘moet American standaris fr such mechanisms ‘The deficiency of our diesels isthe criminally poor aircleaners onthe T4. The “Americans consider thst ely a saboteur could have consincted sucha device! ‘The same peoblems woe identi in a T-34/85 bull in 1945, The US study ‘Engneorng analysis ofthe Russian T3485 tank’ noted (11) Wholly inadequate engine Infake air cleaners could be expected to alow eety engine fale due fo dust intake and the resulting abrasive wear. Several hundred mls in very lusty operation would probably be accompanied ty severe engine power loss. ‘Tho same study says in page 451 about the transmission: ‘The transmission hed by American standards akeady fale, athough wih extreme cae It could nave been used further. Teeth ends on al gears wore battered a the resi of ‘lash shiting. Many pieces of gear teeth had beer broken ff and were inthe transmission oi. Tho Faure is duo to inadequate design, since excellent stool was used through th transmission, ‘The menial image of the T-34 traveling hunered of klmeters without stopping Is famasy. [A Gorman unit hat used the T-24/78 model"#3 in combat noted (12) ‘Rogardiess of our limited exponence, can be stated thatthe Russian tanks oro not ‘suabeforfong road marches and high speeds. It has tumod out that tho highest speed that can bo achieved is 10 0 12 kr Its aso necessary on marches to halt every hal hour frat east 15 0 20 minutes to let the machine cao down. Ditfcuties and brcaktiowns ofthe steanng clutches have occured with al the naw Boute-Panzer. In tic terain, on the march, and ring the attack, in which the Panzer must bs frequently steered and tured, within @ shor time the steering clutches overheat and are Coated wih oi. The osu i that the clutchas dont rp andthe Panzor is no longor ‘manoouvrable, After they have cooled, the clutches must be rinsed with aft of fel “The V2 engine had serious reliability problems (12). Depending on the source in “941 it supposedly lasted for 100 hours on average (14). This gu went down in 1942 since some 7-24 could nc ravel more then 30:5 km Te T-3 tested at the Aberdeen cant was bulla the best factory using materials of superior quaty butts engine stopped working after 72.5 hours. This was not due to [American infeterence as there was a Soviet mechanic (engineer Matveev) charged with ‘maiianing it. Stilt was much better than the standard tanks sines it covered a distance of 424m, [According tothe head of the Amored Directorate of the Red Amy N.Fedorenko, the average mileage ofthe T-34 to overnaul during the war, dd not exceed 200 kilometers. This was considered adequate since the T-3's service Ife a the front was considerably less. For example in 1942 oly Bik Inthat sense the T-24 was indeed Telable' because twas destroyed before ithad 2 chance to break down on ts own! ‘Sti there are examples of T-34s brvaking dwn during assaults even late inthe war (1) Forinstance the SY Guards Tank army in 1943 lost as much as 15% ofits tanks dung Its march to Prokhorovka, In August 3 the 1 Tank army lost 50% ofits tanks ds to rmaluretion, As ate asthe Second haf of 194 tak uns ted to replace engines with ‘ore than 30 hours of operation before a major stack hitpichris-intel-coenee blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestark-o- warm!sono (Christos military an inteligonce corner: WWI Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war AIL VWI tanks hal a hard tie wien traveling and they needed rpais and maintenance or they broke down, ‘There is also the question of standardization. The T-34 was produced at several factonls, Each factory produced a slighty ifort vada, Cou spare pats fom [Nizhny Tagi be used on a T-38 tram Garky? Doubt “The cheap 7:24 (One of the major charactarstes ofthe T-24 was ts low cost, This supposedly was the reason the Russians were able to bulé so many, while the Germans insisted on bldg expensive and thus mited rumbers of tanks. Le's tae a ook at these twa statoment Pace ‘The concept of ‘chaap or ‘exponsive’ has no mang in a command aeonomy. The reason being that the pricing mocharism is crteled by the goverment. f Moscow wanted a weapon to cost x amount of roubles it would cost x amourt. Command Gecisions were made a the top and didnot ake into consideration ree market concepts "ke return on investment, opportunity cost sc ete ‘The same issues affected, na lesser way, the German, US and Brtsh war economies, This makes it impossible to drecty compare weapon systems by locking at he offal prices. In general ying to compare the costs of weapon systems bul in cferent ‘countries under a command economy is very hard and prone to eos. Even using other Incicators such as man-hours and input of raw materials can be misleading. Just to give an examele tho ‘choap’T-24 had an aluminum engine. Tae Gormans with ‘more industial assets than the SU and significantly higher aluminum production reached ‘the conclusion that they could not provide her own tanks with an aluminum engine. 'was simply te0 cost for them. Tis shows the diferent eapabities and priorities that counts have A beter way isto compare prices of products inthe same economy. This the T-34 was mach cheaper than the KV-4 and 15-2 tanks. hows that {Aso protcton costs and man-hours went down during the war. In 1841 8.000 man hours were needed o produce one T-34, ths was reduced to 3.700 in 1943 (16). Price in rubles want from £20,000 in 1940 to 168,000 n 1948 (17). [Not thatthe manhours figure forthe T= probably refers only tothe constuction of the hl and ture, nota fnshed tank (18 Regarding the price, th study ‘Engineorng alysis ofthe Russian T3485 tank’, p5 says tal “itis boleve, thatthe cos atthe time of marufactue, converted to USA curency, would exeeod 50,000 dats hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war This was the sme pice as the M& Sherman, an overall beter vehicle, $0 i not clear ‘of how the T-34 was ‘cheaper than the conpaition (19) 2 Production The second major issue is whether the mass production ofthe Twas dve to its imaginary low cost. ‘The realty is thatthe T-34 was bull in huge numbers because the SU had bit vith ‘Amarican assstance prewar huge production felites. These gigantic facies in the Urals wer the reason for the mass production ‘The Gamans also tok advantage of sgantism when they bull the Niblungonwerk factory n Sankt Valentin, usta. Ths greatly expanded Pr IV production. They aso bi tho “expansive Panther in huge rumba (fr their standard) inthe poiod 1943-45 was not the cost of the Panther that allowed them too to but the inci assets assigned tot The Americans bul staggering numbers of M4 tanks in thelr ark arsenals, net because the B was intrinsically cheap but because gigantic faites wore provided forts conetrcton ‘Quantity ve quality ‘When ooking into whather a weapon system is cheap or expensive the price is only one facter. The other one and I think the mere important one isis performance, Is it beter fo bd 100 cheap tanks of SD expensive ones? The proe diference might be significant but that abut the other costs? 100 cheap tanks wil nee tice the crows and twice the fel as the 50 expensive ones ‘They will alo need twice the spare pas. I 5D tanks rere 25 supely tucks then the 100 will ned 50, You gat the idea Then thew the aspect of losses. A cheap but poo designed tank system wit sutfer ‘ore loses than an expensive bul wll amed and armored one, Mactynes can be mass produced but what about tained crows? A tank force thal has limited cow casualties will have many tank aces and even the ret wil beable to perform wellin combat. On the ther hard country that bis large numbers of iforior tanks wil lose them auickly, together with theiccrewa, Ths will erate a downward spiral as inexperienced crews ill make up the majority of crews and thus severely limit the capably ofthe armored fore. In the period 1941-44 the production difference in AFV's was 2-1 in favor ofthe Soviets (slightly higher it we add Lend Lease) but the exchango ratio was 3.54 in favor ofthe (Germans, This means that f the Germans could caneenzate al thal production nthe East the Soviets would rn at of tanks “Te endless stream of 7.24 tanks [Another myth is tha there were hones of T<4's attacking the German formations: A ‘simple tok at the Soule tank svength at various ports nthe war shows thatthe T-4 was nol Ue most Important tak. The Kgl larks T-60 and T-70 andthe lanksestroyer 'SU-T6 made up the majority of AFV's in 191-2 and ovon in 1943-45 te T-34 comprised roughly hal of tha Soviet fronting AFV fore, In summer 194 thee were ony 967 T's inthe total strength of 2.000 tarks. Forth rest ofthe war ‘Operational forcow ARV Tees | TwayaE [Noval | PIT | Tana | Tana] Tans 2a [ea ae Mesum 7 ian [aria [same aes [ares [0055 git Tass [ anes ae [aaa [nae [ar [oo Sum ia __[3976 [7.178 [3002 [4386 [5.300 [7.558 SE Fea oe or Maur Te [ wee ahr [se Sam T T 7 3ea__[o06 [aot [acer Toa Tsar sare [rare ores fase [rat [veo Tate [or [ose fase [os as [oa hitpiohris-intel-cocner blogspot com b2072)07Iwwi-myths-t--bes-ank-oF- war mrsono (Christos miltary and inteligance corner: WWI Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war Source: ‘Velkaya Otechestvennaya Voina 1841-45, Dejtvuyushchaya Armiya via Axis History Forum Production and losses during the war Ti predTon ond Tose Ti [ee [ee [oe a Premeetn | Z8OO | TESST | Tow | HSS] TATTO_| STAT Tosses [2300 [ 6,600 [14.700 | 15.600] 7500 [44,900 Source: ‘Soviet Casuates and Combat Losses inthe Twentieth Century’ Justa bit under 4,000 fost during the wa! War wining indood Total Sovlet AFV losses in 1941-45 wore 98.600, That's nota typo. Almost one hundred thousand voices For comparson’s sake a Garman rod found in Waffen und Goheimwaffen dos Geutschen Heares 1953 - 1945 (20) lists tank losses inthe East rom 1941-44 as 15.673 and total AFV losses (tanks, Stag, sl-propeled guns et) as 23.802 (Comparison with German and Western tanks ‘The Geman models Tiger and Parther wore greatly superior to the T-34 in amor and ‘repomer. [Ath other end ofthe spectrum the outdated models Pz, Pl, P25 and P23 that wore used in numbers in 1941-42 were completely oulclasced by ‘Te T-34 was superior in mobily a its 00hp engine gave it an excellent power weight rato. Also is wide tracks minimized ground pressure and alowed movement in sft (gourd, However is stbilty over rough tetin was not better than the Gaeman tanks. 1.36 ve Pal ‘The main Goran tank in the period 1983-43 was th Pall, Ht weighed roughly 22 tons ‘and was armed (in that peso) wth a 8mm gun ‘The Pll mado up 28% of Garman tank strongth at the start of operation Barbarossa Roughly 72% ofthese had the new SOmm gun, the rest the 37mm (21). These guns could ‘nly panetate the T-34 fom the sides at close ranges while the Soviet tank coud estoy the PzII rom long stances from all aspects hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war By summer’42 it made up 19% of German tank strength. A that ime it hed received 3 longer 50mm gun that could destoy the 4 from 800m trontally (with special ‘anmuston). I algo received more basic mor (50mm fram 30mm) pls Zor boted on pats. The exira amor negated the perfomance ofthe F-24 al Ing ranges. Despite its theoretical infaenty the Pall was abet ight agains the 34 What lacked in armor an firepower it made up by having @ better intemal layout, Deter relay and optics, a commanders cupola and radi in avery vice It isnot clear whether some Pz models had a tue basket atferent authors supper ater ews) Tass Pav ‘The Pz1V was the main German tank inthe ped 1848-4. I weighed 25 tons and was cecuippod with 2 75m caliber gun. During the wari was upgraded with moro amor and a beter gun. ‘The P2IV made up 13% af German tank strength atthe sta of operation Barbarossa (22) The model used was equipped with alow velocty 75mm gun effective against Infantry but not armorod targets. From mid 1842 the Pz1V was equipped wit the longer ‘mm gun KwK 40 that could destroy the T-34 from 1.000m. The basic armer was also inereased to SOmm (em 30mm) plus 30mm bolted on and in 1943 80mm standaré (or the ron hull, ‘The upgraded PeIV was superior to the 34 in intemal ayo, Siepower, tet bask optics, commander's cupola ado in every vehicle ad its rota ull rmer could witnstand the F-34rounds. A Soviet study in 1943 (23) admitted tha the Pz 1V was superar othe tank, assigning Wt a combat valve of 127 tothe T-24' 1.18 (th the Pz I being the nase 1.0, ‘The T-34/85 that appeared in mic 1944 was @ harder opponent cvs to ts naw gun Du the PIV sil had an edge inthe ‘sot actors mentloned above. Moreover the heavier 85mm rounds limited the number that could be cared to $8 compared to the Pz IV's standard toad ou of 87. The 85 mm rounds were not sored in a safe manner (24) since 16 ofthe 158 rounds wore in the tet This alowed the fader to use thom quickly but it had the downside that a penetration ofthe ture ed tothe explosion ofthe shols and loss ofthe tank ‘96 ve M4 Sherman ‘The main US tank in 1982-45 was the Sherman, It weighed 30 ons and was armed with 2 7émm gun, Tho late war version MA TB had a more powerful 7émm righ veloc gun ‘There are many similares betwesn the TA and the N-é Sherman. Both tanks were builtin huge numbers and they are comparable in weight and gun caliber, Even ther dated version T3885 and M4 Tem are very clo, [As a weapon system however the MM was superior. I had the same good soft qualtios 23s the Garman tanks (rsomal layout, opis, rei), tha signfcartly better stabilty over rough tarain plus it was very reliable mechanialy. In amor and frepowerit was the same as tha T=, Conclusion The T-3s the victim of Soviet and Gorman wartime pecpaganda. The Russians had ‘very reason to buildup as tho best tank of WI The Germans also overstated its performance in order to explain thir deat. It th T-34 was as good 9s propaganda made it xt tbe than it should have led to reat Sovet vetoes in 1841-42. Instead what we see In that period isthe poor performance of Soret armored formation. In 1943-45 th T-34 was bocoming autdated a¢ the Germans {sed updatod versions ofthe Pz IV and Slug Il equipped with the powerful Kwk 40 ‘75mm gun and of course thay introduced the Tiger and Panther The best tank of WWII suffered homie losses against those tanks and even the updated version T3485 coud not ridge the gap hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012/07twwi-myths-+-3-bestark-o- warm!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war ‘The T-3 looked good on paper bu in the battled its “sof Haws le to huge losses. Meanitile Wester tanks tke the M4 Sherman and Pe IV may have lacked sloped armor or wide tacks but they were beter combat systems overall Effect in the design of postwar Soviet tanks Postwar Sovlet tanks tik the T-55, 1-2, T-64,T-72 and T.80 al eltowed the sane ‘sign princpis asthe 7-38: +. Very tow profile which meant limited intemal space and poor gun depression, 2. Limited weight whic le to good speed perfomance but pt lmits onthe level af ‘mer protection, |. Simple and rigged construction whieh meant that they ware capable of being ‘mass produced by Sovlet factores but atthe expense of crew comtor. ‘Soviet models from the T- onwards ted! o deal with te ited intemal space ty automating the ammo lading operation. However hor autolcader was prcblematic an often led to accidens \Westem models ike the M-#8, M-60 and Centsion were taller and heavier but thay provided ther crews with a better enviranmant. Thay alo cared more ammuition (25%.-51% more). (On paper the Soviet ypes loked superior but onthe fll twas the US and Brtish types that won the Baltes. Dung the wars botween Isao an the Arabs small numbers of Wostom made tars wiped out umercallysupore Arab frces equiped with tho T-55 and T-62 tans. (One of the mast famous episodes is the Bate ofthe Golan heighls in 1973, The trae Centurion tanks ofthe 7 Brigade faced @ huge Syran force but managed to ifct, hone losses on them a they tried to overcome the tank bare. The Centurion was uch eavier (520 than the T-S6 and T-62 (96-40) and powerfuly armed and armored. ‘so cared 51% (5 vs 43) more ammo, ‘That battle was a ropeat of WWI when the T-34' chargod the fle nly tobe saughlered by Garman lanks from a distance, hitpichris-intel-coener blogspot com ri2012)07twwi-myths--3-est tanksono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war The performance of the T-72 which was supposed to be the tank that would win aot war for the Russians was sii. nthe Gul Wars Iraqi T-72'¢ were easly destroyed by ‘moder M1 Abrams tanks ftom great distances. As Tom Clancy put iI! was a death trap tke everything else the Russians bul ‘Tho T-3#logacy led the Russians to invest in quantity over quality. A mistake that their Ales paid dear. No (1), "7.56.85 vs M2 Pershing, p75 2) Panther & ts Variants 71 (9) ‘Engines analysis of the Russian T3485 tank’, (@) Enginesing analysis of the Russian T34/85 tank’, p (6) "Tankovy ur, Sovetekie tank! v bayakh, 1942-1949, p292 (©) Zaloga and ursk 1943, p212 (7) Pancertuppen ast pages (@) Panzer tacts no, 182: Beuteparzerkamptwager, p98 (0) "3476 Meu Tank 1961-45, 9 (10), "Moscow to Stalingrad: Decision nthe East’, p63 (11) Engineoing analysis of tho Russian T3485 tank, 8 (12) Panzer tracts no, 192: Beute-panzerkamphwagen’ 997 (19) “Tankovy udar, Soveskie tani v Boyakh. 1942-1969, pa71-2 (16, "7-34 Mythical Weapon, p123 (15) "7-34 Mythical Weapon, p61 (18) "Accounting for War: Soviet Production, Employment, and the Defense Burden, 1940-1948, p228 (17, "7-3: Mythical Weapon, p160 (18) ‘Combat vehicles ofthe Uralvagonzaved: TM" by Ustyantsev & Kalmakov via AHF ‘dscussin. According tothe authors the gue fra complete T.36 In January 1949 was 17.600 tor hous (19), Sherman's 1945 prices (20) "Wafer und Geheimwatfen des deutschen Heeres 1933 — 1948), 9278 (21), Panzotitruppen (22) Panzeteruppen (23), "34.85 vs Ma Parsing, p10 (24) 7-26-85 va MOE Pershing, p24 ‘Souens:'T-3 Mythical Weapon” by Michulee and Zientarzowsii, T-34/78 Medium Tank 1981-45, T-34185 Medium Tank 1944-85" and T-34-65 ve M28 Pershing by Stoven J Zaloga, Tankovy udar. Sovetskotankiv boyath, 1942-1943, Parzeriuppon velt and val by Jentz, Panther & ls Variants by Speloerger, Evaluation of tanks T-24 and KV by workers of the Aberdeen testing grounds ofthe U.S ,operationbarbarossa net "Accounting for War: Soviet Production, Employment, andthe Defense Burden, 1940- 1945, Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis’, Axis History Forum, Wikipedia, ‘Soviet CCasuaties and Combat Losses inthe Twentieth Century, "Enginecrng analysis of he Russian TSE tan, "Panzer tracts no, 19-2 Boule-panzorkamatwagen, ‘Moscow to Stalngrad: Decision n the East’, Waffon und Gensimwatfen dos deutschen Hoeros 1933, = 1945, Review of Soviet ordnance matalray” ics: Kummersdor test fram ‘Panter & Is Varians', cestayed T-3 pls om 4 Mythical Weapon Ponty chon a NEABEM Da hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! wersono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war '8+1 «6 Recommend ion Google Leet AF Ease nt T-34,a2 a, WHAs 130 comments: ‘is isan excellant analysis and corny busts 6 myth; couple of commons. Crow "San has ahways eon an sie wih Sova tanks, up tne tls versions of ho 772 Wwnan automatic loaders appeares, svi! lnk cows where nomally 3 people ‘verescing th tank cormancer wih tos. Taleo agree wit he cheapiconmand economy pont, however [ink we should probably look more at me advantage of simple, yel rudineniay, marulacing Inetheds While Germans would use ne weiing Ruslans woul ust asaemat al together with bole. The simply of manvfacsnng probably conioies to another facon the easier indueton of nosed rect ilo “waco” Une tanks. | suspect contols inside were very spartan and simple and opis wl probably be vary very basic..woulé not ru any calculation on ho partof he gunner Garman crows nag @ beter, snd longer, taining ne hoy used! more sophiseald rachanics ang plc, At the end ofthe day thy foura hemeelves ine war of triton, Iateve that the slope armocgun power of me T- was achat fue in se right anit wen they met sach ctor rng the German invasion of Russia, Atal pont bye ts German lane gun would te 50 mm gua and he shot baretiow speed 75 mm. ‘hare would sillbe a sgnfant amount af Zoeeh T-88 and Palas wel 2887 mm and '50 mm anttane guns wih fow long boro 75 mm around: under tse condone Eght ‘ants an ight pak would Mave most a heavy tak oral year slandard, havi he Paty a5 ne onl, maaiu tankin ti ea30, oppos Hoved the ast woul b8 very iors t S80 similar comparison fora soviet srr neers 1 US repr ofa Getmian BF-108evaleon and ida ot do vary wl as opposes my. Excotont realy enoyes it Reply Repies G6 Christos T,—7720"12.285 0M should write somthing about he 6109 a¢ ie beon misrepresented by ‘Anglos (who ts) and FW-190 fans (wh fel the Butchers was the best Are you referring the Carson ropor? That was so ulus thas a Anonymous 528/14, 928° You would be refering io me, a8 he people who favor me FW-180 8 lr ‘avo ans tghtor plane. But seroush is been repeatedly shown tat plot sls overwhelmingly fe doisive Stn in dogfights, bt pcxing ave fe Inetetly leat to (8 | specteally prefer te model O 190) he 262 was an opton idpckiios Repy ‘Anonymous 1/21/12, 4-20 AN all oat, When i was developed the T-34 was a grea ink, way ahead of any coher county’ lank. Then te Germans upgrades Det lanks, developed naw ones, and the T-24 waso so great Se the Soviets ceatod tho T-2485 and again had @ Aecent tank. lltanks involve compromises, and afte wo ore tanks fa woul be fon anyone ist or "besttane af WAP (wheter "bes? means oyu), the T-34 should alwaysone oftnem, any Reoly plies sl Anonymous $24,619 Ak so yu know, ta or hpi of 1841 a 1845 reproduced about 60000, "3 tans ofa moa featons (incising “great T-f85). Mast hem ae osoyec by nots deat Geman tanks (more san 50000 T.34 desroyed. some captured). By the way or WI war period the fla number of ‘German fanka produced is ets tan 30 000. Only 6000 “Panter, about 1400 “Tigers and las han 600 "King Tigrs. This the best axa fr "quaniy ve. gully. Maybe the Goran taneguye are "supermen™ Yarosiaw terehov 2117/4, 40 AKL hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! soursono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war 34 was designed in sary 39 and produced sinca 1940. ts aluminum angine = aroadylesad design of aera engine (Ike shermans, but of aterentype). Think somarng goman, USA and USSR production of hat ime wae tke ‘comparing bisa stl rll and ant ill Payment you wl no nih biatanktilomorow, one of you be sor? Siandadzatn of paris doubted by auher? Allan in USSR were following sila or producton ‘Standards nut fom tis pant will not t bok fom other - measure oversoer wil get shot next morning, No crmparion is possible win private designing (ot german eurporatons, or wh entusasl outst curency-based economy (of USA. Costin rubles was use to equalize sources. Man resource 0 ‘wore manpower and food, est was added fo ealeuaion So needed for ‘uminum elacicty In USSR was cneaper tan ol (and ls a chesper in Russia lactic n Moscow now cost about four tes ies han in Denver witn no progressive alo, or power fe - though fey want apply Some)progressve. Every house had aluminum ules in that be, and dug war, poople were encouraged spare some for sep. \Why eo eink contol? To rave on ining of ever very Sh young man in USSR at that ie knew how o dive tacorar scraper, or similar vehicles Simple answer: what you think was expensive a that sme, peopl of hat ‘me weteconaiered heap tm not saying hata ight. us. ere ae il people who belive in fat scale of cos, probably sas. butt whe Slowed sun fl blow along wih resource help lor wa tor ios a Danio 1s!i4 122.061 ‘nd alo by Suk, 885, are just beter tata ining al fe pal ofthe Germans, Thats whst makes it hard o compare loss aos, ‘he German smaltunt aces and batie plans gave hem a big advantage cover Ross anda smaladvariage over even he US and Bi, a Frans “512,740.00 (tas tm not the only one wna recognizes he 34 forthe death wap twas. Sovit armour sufere hon esses durng fre war ard "ho best 'ank of war Was Amar contbutor a tat 1'prblom you don't mention Is the fxge amount of ineraal space Its Chisty suspension cecuped, aatner crtibutor is ramped intr. Te Christy suspension mado the T-34 fas but not wihout mangtng its cow during ccost-county dashes, wanted anjrate on te -3ssccostow: ‘nether F-34rolated myn ise Panther baing @ copy of while he only Bing a in common wit aT-4 is tal alo a tank, Repies a Christos T,—11/12.2518.4M (Good point have a ook at ny sour Frans ©7992, 799.0 ‘Anote pint wor looking a mightbe combatlosses. br armovred warfare poseosion off batels ater the bate has a huge Impact on ates. ‘Sinaly saa: for the “ose” every destoyedléemagesinmobiised tank becomes @ loss while fe he winner only tanks that brewed up andlor exploded ae lost everng else geting repaired. ‘With be Soviets canting the mejoty of te batlfelés Yom midtate 1943, ‘onwards Ihave a feeling the number of -4 “mocked out n combat was ‘chaly mh higher than acl oases" imply, ‘is woula ben work inthe opposite det fr the Germans of couse with everyning repairable Becoming ass instead, ‘Se lhink heaton appaling combat ofeciveness oft T34 the “ossos™ imply reat only the bp of an eaberg of eombal uslassnes, Mongo 11/)0112,9:17 Ph Weltnow exaety aid he Soves win Ite T-34 was so hotrbe? And dont sayitwas numbers because tsar ear to destroy tank han bul it Obretoe T.t3yii2, 1247 aM hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war twas numer. Notust tanks but most important infant. Anonymous (215,449 Alt | woul alo ad he simple fact Germany took on fr too many enerios with far oo many useage Alles, Had Hier Bich slapped tie Duce no Compliance and smal gnored he US, and lt tang dean cuke out ne ‘would nave Sean abe fe sand far more visions fhe USSR to hol he Anonymous 5/11/93, 950 P14 woul encourage you 110k nt he factor tat heater comps af bot counties exh dung tne war, The Red Army wae osh aut of Stalin's urges and had ile ine orang to work oul Garman deduction at lrmor concsnraton was paramount in a tank vs tank engagement. The ‘ussans bocame notorious foto pecameal delivery oft ary inthe wor, and wile Garman reports ndcaln their improssed views ofthe fark sien ey recognize Be By of seodg Hem so at along be Anonymous 1123/12, 259 AM Ccount me n a anoter who hinks the 734i overated as theese tank of he war “ofthe war means unt! Aug. 1945, and withthe rapid changes In tachology war brings, thre 's ne way Pat a 1938-1940 dasign tank (or plane or even ship fo that rat desied in 1943 ora, Cleary the ate model Panthers and Tigers, desp relabilyissu9s - some of which wre caused by lak of qually materials as muchas desig, were beter tars than he 136 oF improved T4185. The Korean war showed the superony of lle wa tanks such ashe 4126 Pershing and Besh Comet (possibly the best all round produced tank of WW. You make some good paints. For example, The T-34 was not as relable a6 many bolievo. From Drabin, Artem & Oleg ShereratsT-34 in actor" (2006) "AV. Bocnar, \wro wae in conbatin 1941-22, called From he point of vow of pera ther, the [German armaured machines were mare perfect they broke Gown les ater. Fa he Germans, covering 200 kn was noting, but wih T-34s somening would have been lost someting woul have Broken dawn” Prdconqualiy forte T-34 was siroly rot ery good aye lat, Youte slo covet eeize the ho man ire yout, That along wth poor gun opti Iindeted rae of fre. The Germans ncied the 7-4 was vey slow fo find end engage targets woe the Panzer coua typical get of tee rounes or everyone red by he 1.3 (S.Zaloga P, Sarr, T-3176 Nadim Tari page 40), ‘ta probtem fr the Germans was that bere May 1942 wo he arvalafthe Panzer Vit, F2 and soon afer Aus, tesont matir hey goto or 30 rounds per one lor the T-3."Remarky enough, one determined 37 mm gun erow pore ing 25, ‘mos agains single T-34tnk, oly managing a jam he ans rel ang (8. Zaloga Sargon. “I-2476 Medium Tank page 12) [Ae wt of he Russian campaign, be T-4 wae sina He bes! lank inthe won “are was noting even close. The “best German tank was the Panzer IV Aust AD whieh fated low velooty short bareled TSmen, The Panzer I is he major of ‘Ser tanks a that ie, featured 274m eanan oo weak o penal the T3¢s armar fat combat range. The 1-4 was revoltonary In ifs use of slopes armor. fs A0hp fngine was mor power than mest etal chor contmporary tanks Tho Panzer, for example, had a SOOHP engine. The 7-3 engine also used desl rather tan more Aammable gasoine {Gv its compatton athe sal part of Russian Oensivo is sy fo seo why he “2 gained legendary repuiaton- was simply much beter ten the compet, But as | mentones, twas Inewiabi at t began fo be oVassod by late designs sich the Panther. The exact sare thing ean be soon wih he ANLS Zero fahir. UP Una! 1943, t uelessee anyhing In the Pace and wae the tror of Be shoe However, wth fn ntegucton ofthe F-5 Helet and FAU Coral, became somathing| fortrgot acts ‘Tope dsr, agree 100% hat whe the Panther & Tiger tanks were suptor. hey wore emply oventhelmed bythe massive numbers of Tt nicn was why Germany wWo8 Unable fo rognin any momentum onthe Eastern Front post 7943. should also be mentioned that peor Geman leadersh atthe top dant help much eile. Even the bosttank ear overcame poo aceal and sag planning Reply hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war Replies fe] Christos T. 11720012, 1150 Pm I ageae tal he T's paper eraracieaice ware exes! in 194%. The problem nas thatthe prfrmance nthe fel was poor becauee of te aot ‘aw (Wwo-nan ture lack of radi, poer vison poor relay et). Just ‘nk about be part you quoted: Remarkably enough. one delermined 37 rm gun efew epares fing 23 tes agains single T-4 an. For yout ‘means the T-34coulé withstand any German gun, Forme tis amazing th ‘he 7-4 crow could nat engage and dowry a target that Nad load it ‘em 23 tml Tak about ighing Bind {iso a coracton, The Pal fore in 1047 had primary the SOmsm gun. 1982 ecaves th logr 500mm LBD and the Pet and Stig tre Koc, ‘he P21v F2IG was superior he I-34 as also eaves exta am. $0 keep n moe tat even te ‘paper suparenty of he T-34 was dees by mae Reply Anonymous 1128/12 905 AN8 Sony. butforgots add wo ings: (1) The Abordoen avaluatons must bo takon wit quite abit of salt. Say. US mitary “planner and nigh ranking ofcal le bias and ago unduly infuence th judgement Anything made ang de.gned n America was aiomatealy superior toe compettcn, Gorman tasty proved that he F-34gun had superar penavaton compare to the Mt ‘Sherman's MS Tsmm. The 85mm T-4 gun was also superar ote Shemans 73mm IMI'gin unless HVAP rounds were uses. The 85mm could penetrate fe Parner the ined supply HVAP rounds, tne M's fanm Mi cous stl not pene¥ale he Panthers ont ali, but cule ponevate he gun mantle! 800m Even worse, assuming you quoted coecty, lure" b0 muzze vol of AP rund ‘(2200 fet vert 5700 feat par scone)” stgnitantyifenor othe Aroncan 3 dont tink ter's every been a radiional gun (le nota “a gun r sila in the history of he wots win » muzzle velosy of over S000 fs, A fow modem hung rounds (e.g. Weatheay Magrums, Raminglon Uta Mag, et) approach 4000 Rec. A pecal tound for me MI Abrame ‘20mm canon nas muzzle velocity of roughly 46008. Thats ho fasost ound (hough admit wasn an exhausts sarc). ‘he MS 75mm muzzle velcy wes 2300 wih AP rounds, and with HVAP rounds, ‘Tera M's was 24008 (2600 otherwise). ean think of any WH gun (smal or ge caller) wit a maze vlocy of 40008 oF ore (2) Mank you foranenightsning post | rly enjoyed reading Replies a CohnistosT. 1173012, 1229 4m 1 scons tat he whele sentence wrong. From Mybical wospen’ get Ina veloty (mis USSR:F-4 gun “580, D-s gun 02, USA MT 1,036, UK: 1T par. 1.208, Garmany: Ku 990, Kwed2- 1.125 ‘eras aso e question of accuracy at ng ranges. Geman end Westem guns had muicn niger rersical acoracy again target ofa given 30 Compared lo Sovie! ones, For example al 1.500m 85mm has 3% ‘eotaea while whe? 100% heretical and 72% acta rewrite natpar when Ihave Sno. sac USSR: Ls ~812,F-34— 680 (Geman ast says 625), 0.5 ~ 792, USAIM- 519 , Mi. 7927, UK: 17par~ 880, Gomany Kw 38 LZ ~ 685, Kw 39 (Uso - 835, Kws 80 LAS 740, Kk 40 89790, Kk 42-825 For special ammo: USSA:L-11 ~?,F-4 ~ 965 D5 1.200, USA: M9- 701 Wate 1036, UK: Tp = 1.206, Gomany: Kwik 38 Lt? = 1,050, Kel 39 Luo #180, Kee 40 Lt 920, Kk 40 Li48 000, Kn A2— 9,120 ‘There ao the queston ofhow available wets the spacial aso Yypesin, Sovet serve, hitpiohris-intel-coenee blogspot com ri2012/07twwi-myths-+-3-besttark-of- warm! sarsono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war epy rilotus 124012, 853 AM I dont know about the “best ank” as that is $0 subjctve based on tne, Jaton, atl conatons le, bulgven Ine Geman reacsons tls appearance, no malor what tats show, i shocked te hell ou of he Germans, One tng to consider i he umber of Ts dostoyed Is the superor Goran aniank guns. AS fr 36 the ‘Sherman, twas suc a arandol tal oven Paton leeds fp Congress about short ‘cominga, The only way Sherman ook on Panthers (and Tiga wastovough aide and Fear ambushes. One ting fr coran, any arco mat dams tho T-34 was crap ‘compared io hee oer anks based on oss at Aberdeen hae loa lst sense of he Teal of tei use the ral war, When Garman tanks ware tozen inthe wr, ey were running Repies a Christos T. 1290112, 1228 0M dnt know about the “beet tank” os hat isso subjective based on ne, loaaton, bales conditions, te Yet couross Wil books constany refer to the T-34 asthe bosttank othe ‘A for a8 the Sherman, was such a scandal hat even Paton ese to Congres ‘The Sherman was a beter tak han te T4 NE vs 4 and MA 78a 24188, ‘any ale hat claims e 34 wae cap compared to ese afer tanks “Tha probloms oad by he Aboroon evaluators have also boon mantoned in Sovet army reports and even a US stay am th Korean War oils out ‘me unbelevaely poor a ar on Be T-4B5. could sso we sbout German tsis showing the T-34 had the worst stably of any teeing production tank ele The 7-4 jus wasn't signed and bul wal ‘nen Garman tanks were fan inthe wine, hey were rining! Yes in 1941 that was tue, Then the Garmans learned 10 koep the equipment running in very low emperaties(usuely fom Soviet psones) Monge 1217/12.921 Your comment about he sloped armor onthe panther 's wrong. The sides of he Panthor ar sloped; you can ll salty looking at Your comparigons ofthe tank cannon also don ake ino account fe HE shel of ho tanks. sy by 0 US Amy conducted about the ging in Nor Aa showed hat bout 75% of all ie shalt Bee by US tanks wore HighrExalsive founds. nfo! he HE performance of tie gun on the MA Témmm was 20 poor General Paton ehises scinpt ie frat shipments ohm fr sev in he 0-Day invasions brs me 7-34 had an advaniage verte Panther andthe Tiger since ited shes veth more high-xplosives in thr. The same compares fo te 76mm cannon onthe ‘Sherman, he Tm cannon dig have fe same HE parormance buinario A. No-one has ever ai he 7-34 never broke down. Rilo it relative ler compared tw he Tigo and Panther the T-34 was for move vaable. broke dow lass ooh and Consumes men less Nel which wae an Important aaveniage, The losses f Ot ‘downs in 1941-42 werm due loa soriage of mechanics sine fo mainsin then Reply Replies a Christos T. 1277112, 147 PL "Your comment about te sloped armeron te panteris wrong! ‘Th Panter aso used slope one ses, however my point concamed he loss of inomal space due t ‘he slope. was fe font that ‘ut ino the Internal space. nth 7-4 ont and sides were so sloped that ay ted Imzerat space consceraly. 1 seams that | need to explain ts In mare es hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! 167sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war “Your comparisons ofthe lank cannons also don ake nto account the HE | compared tank wih ank 0 AT perfomance was what matred, HE sels front going t help you in tank combat. lad somthing when | update iapiece. Reliable sa relative term: compares tthe Tiger ana Panter he T-34 was Iinnewe't nave to agrees ssagreeon that Reply Alejandro 1211112,915 PM ‘Te aim of the ariel is good, but there ae vgs numberof inaccuracies. Miehule books eavemely Based and the way the aud utes relerances lo point oul daa Unacceptable. 1s much beter io use intomaton fom auhors ke Jeno” Swen. deanvap. AUS suay #om te Korean Wa’ (based an th T-8486 that was roomier than te -38/76) concludes that def he Ied intra space 9 panetaton by an Sherman he gure was oly "85, Yes, but in Korea Sherman recived fre fom 76I85mm rounds, and T4-95 fom Som mounted on Persings Gorman tanks Hee the Px and Pe IV nnd conventonal ull design but ey abo used pe inher pata ei Honthull amar ‘The slope was voy Inod, Fitwas ok Panther and Tiger would not have had slopes ‘The now Panther tank waste frst Garman tank have @ filly sloped hull Font and ‘And this osu in a tank which was evertight by 10!ons.Expeci wight fo taking inka accountha weight ofthe ane “Te Christin suspension vsed onthe 7-94 had te advange tal i allowed fo high poor stat in ough eran. Yes, bul Sovel indushy was well versed ino the buling techniques nd fey could use machinery fom tocomotve Inausty. Torsion bars suspensions needed more ‘complx machinery, and in sore casas had to be Inprid. By keeping me Christo tinge, Tere ware very fw machines tat could machine aturet wih aera ture ng (18 mors), Tis sone aspect of eneoase largely orgoton. Alone 12119112,9.16 PM ‘he catber numbers look impressive. Alera he maln German tank of 1963-43 2 had 8 50 mm qun and that of 1943-45 Pz IV had 75mm. However Soviet ark guns ler fomow velty Iago poor penotaton and acoracy along ranges. ‘Tha Témm gun was excatlen, bul te svenghs need to be found in more specie reports, Menuchiring was very simple, a t had few components, More nportanty twas the good pertomance of both HE and AP rounds, 27mm and SOnm gura were ay behind nf Lessee ne US report the T-4 sent Aberdeen: “Tha F24 gun isa very good. tis impo, ory reliable and 03370 sence. ts weakness is that the muzsleveloty of AP round is sanifleanty infor 6 the Amorcan 3” oun ($200 feet versua 8700 fut par second, (Germans ware sso veryimprested “characenates ofthe 134 The 7-24 is Setar, mare maneuverable, has baer erse-sounty madly then our Pxptll and W. i armors seonger. The penevatng ably of is 7.62 cm cannon i the armor plates igs in easing ta helt dof ye lank oer, where tls important to achieve @ ites perpendletar tothe sacs 38 tel-corner blogspot com bri2012/07twwi-myths-+--bestark-of warm! marsono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war possbo, Hison i uroting. sven wit high-oxplosivesholl or machine gun bullets "ical result n arming fe ret, hr sdeton,ammororcng shells feed at cbse range that tthe gun mane resutinpanerabons and breaking open the weld sears ‘ha T-44 can bo peneveted at ranges up t 1000 metas wih te 7.5 em PaK 40 as wollasthe 75 om ohlgransie (elow-chege shells” Reply a [island 1211182,917 PM “For tho fst time during the campaign In te East In thse battes ho absohto superoty ofthe Russian 26 lone and 62 lon tanks over ot Pe Xp land V 389 ‘The Russian tanks ususally formed in a half ce, open fee wih he 7.82 em gun on cr Panzere already ata range of 1000 melee snd delve enormous penevaton (ur om KK tank guns can only aciove penettions under vory special favourable ange of soveral hundred mets. Many Hes our Panzers Wate spit open or he Compote commanders cupta ofthe Pz tw. and IV fow of fom one ont Nt. Ts Is proofthat te armor is insert, te maurting forthe command cupola on out Pangers is dalton, and the aceutacy ana penavaton ably a te Russ.an 7.82 em tank uns ere ngh (Christe tank (34) s faster, mace maneuverable, and he tunel averse mechanism ‘kay super. His wee races allow waving offre that cant be crossed by ur larger woth ofthe Russian nk ne same bridges can be assed as by ou Panzers™ By the way 09 of te suggestions by the author of he raport he commander of Panzer Ovaln- mast Inia! 76mm 1-34 gun n Panzer-v guess Mihulecmisted penetation perfomance and accuracy han he F-S4 and the Panthers KwK 42 was eo superor othe ZS 53 85mm in ho same areas Paninar's Kn 42 was way suparor in amour pension, but waight was comparable to 12.28 5.53 was comparable © 75L48, would conier it suporer because of svalviy of ubeatber rounds Apparent ne afr problom was never fxe0, AUS study of captured 9485 fom ‘he Koroan War outin 1845) ws fred in at 1942, elon ters ware installed, | dont know what the US reports retersio Reply a Alolanaro 92113%2,317 PM The menial mage of me T-34 Yaveling hundreds of hlometrs witout stopping Is fantasy. The Sth Guards Tank ary in 1943 ost as much a6 18% offs anks dung rach lo Prokhoyova. ty August 3 the 18 Taney lst 80% of tetas due mmatunction 2:94 engines were mien beter bull and allowed vara! hundred noute of joperatons. In Kursk tho Sovo% eid rot have much experence on tis ps of 175 outof220 comb whic in he tt 150 kn (eu of 300-400hn), Lala in he war 1-34 could manage SODkmS in 3 day. In Jonuary-Febauary 1944 the % of TA produces at sucosstlly wont rough a 300kms cicrtwas aroun BO% There Is alsa the question of sendardzston. The T-34 was produced at several faci. Each faciory produced a sighydiferntvarant. Coult spare parts fom Clty of 7-24 varied during tne war bocause of ong and facies, bu rin he Justo gv an example te ‘cheap T-36 had an aluminum engine. The Germans wih ‘more industial aetets Wan the SU and signicanly higher ateninum producion Foached the condlusion hat ey could not provide thelr own anks with an alunsoum This is because Sovet aca incusty did ot need aluminum to mass produce the sir, Soviet Union took into account avaiaiy of resources when desing hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war weapons, 1:6 was conceived fer mass poaucton and low coat The stool used was ot just 3 siferent gauger to simply prodicton, Refnemant was only applies whore ded. Semisulomatic welaing = 57-348 ana you al have to eal wi ihe ase of which one you'd ater have an Russian cate, fs le ll more relevant because Tiger producton might become most mpossile in wartme, while you can silstamp out cude out ofeceve TAs alte German Any isin France. That te only way th SU could wit This isnot sorlous statement. Rod Army seized inate far bore Normandy and hha no prablars owing aut Germans out of Ulan late 43 larly 4 and by hat time was brecking twough German detsaes at wil really. Of couse, wiout [Normandy fring of Gamans wouldve taken sgnfeanty more ime a ood, but by early 4 twas clear altho Fe Ary was going to parade tough Bern. wore (gona tak about Aes conten, far mote significant Were te Fesoufes and Ue trough Land Leesa, han anysing ta Alles ed on he ground Rephes Ei orcreneswer est tasg est en ome Rep "1.28, BT, 134, KV all had problems in 1947 even though they were produced st peacetime consis’ 1049, 1-26 and B73 ware old lak about tobe decommissioned wih spare pat honagee: T-b4e and Kis wave brang new designs that went through fer own twoting problems. Not sure what point youre tying Ye make hee. 7-4 rally on he whole Incteesed during the war ever as tbecame cheaper t proace Wi Worse tool lber, "The PakeDKwid0 was produced in ange number Wasnt enough, Or he whole Germansiiler ware obsessee with expensive ‘weaponry and were unable to foes thir arts on te mos! ofeceve weapons that he amy really id need. Russans actualy dd far beta Jobat cus Der indus ‘foi, and tbascally weno wa for hom, despite re army loadeshipivaring never ‘te catching upto the Gomans unt perhaps te vry fal sages ofthe war. ‘wen dia hathappen? Every yoartney lose huge numer Again, shat no relevance to anyhing, USSR losthuge numbers of ald of et rats equipment Svoughout the war. USSR also lost huge numbers of superior ‘quipment wien firing the Finn for sxample. So ent krow what ttl you ho ancusion if obvious. Once agai, you give Rusian eauipment othe Germans, and ‘hay would ve done just as wal (or vary ely bee) 28 ay di. “The Garman coecty assessed the station and bullthe vehicles they needed” Fertinands and Tigers, ie V-2 rockets, vember 2628 and many other ems were an fapensive distacson and a Yomendous waste of Garman war resourees, Is nat hitpiohris-intel-coenee blogspot com bri2012/07Hwwi-myths-+-3-besark-o- warm! omarsono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war atways about producton numbers, ater ~ those same designers eauldve been working on pertectng the ache ofoctve weaponry ‘adequate srmor and frapomer Noten te Shanmans went ine producton, -34-65¢ wore baicaly us as good law war wih aactonal qualies of Being much more a alo early in Be wat, and aso a proven vackracrd ot high vlume production interno conaitans Replies a Christos T. 2727112, 150 PM am notre wha you mean by “his not foun {means that comments sould be short and to the point. Then again contua te respond na orum sya format. ‘Completely disagree. One surace yes You cant estoy aank your weapons dont penevao. But agree atthe oy the Saves uses thor ans ane’ men was responsible forte lopsided "Yes, but it waned to produce 7-346, fon sil or evry Tiger Ht might ve produced 357-348 "understand your poit in genera but thats a stange argument Did the Tiger have 25 engines? Did Ihave 3-5 trate? 3-8 gure? 35 radios? “This isnota serous statment (Oh msi, Even in 1942 hlthe Lufwaf isin hela othr than East and tings got worse each yeah 1945 the Gemanshad e use manpower {or talan font endfor garison dues once aly surendered, Lutwate wos sod almost exclusively against Anglo-American. fr May 1944 thre ‘by sary 4 twas dear Hat me Red Amy was going to parade through Betin: ‘Sure, Ares of he Aagla-Amerteans crawing German forces fom the East {and ofLond -Lease. The SU alone could not dal wih Germany. “34 rea on ne whole ncreaseaauring he war Depends on what you calrebity ‘Wasnt anougt {Eh ft was more than enough for uss against he SU(erece Soviet ve German AEV prosucton and loses). Against al he Alles vos ‘you gve Russan equipments te Gamans, and tey would ve done just aswell Fini id you check be report ofa Garman uni hal used T4 made! «3 and U5? They woud lsegree wih you Fetsinands and Tiger, tke V2 rockets, bomber 2628 and many ober ams were an expensive dstacton and @ wernerdous wast of German 50 Fersinance wor» vemendous was? A sid boforeTgors wore but nd used in sll numbers as specs veil Pr IL Wand V and Stig were bulRin etge numbers, yok he Americans cal is Hgr-Low mix V.zetcisa separate ciscusson, “34-5 wore baseallyustos good ite war ‘The T-34 was not upto Wos'em standards of fnctonaliy and clay in any vorsion,Zsloga has pushed some comments tom the US evaton of captued T-3488 for Korean war. They wetebulin 1948-8 somo mare excuses asout wari. you check yout see thairepron. Rep Anonymous 227113,24 PI ing this post yet but just want o point out hat sloped amar does notin factoferweighereducing benef, (he wikipedia ariel you ced saas isin a more axset mathematical way hat wont bomercopypasing) oly Replies hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! aursono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war a 9204 pont. 180d tha. fe} Christos T, 2708/19, 1229 001 [Nough to be far oe T-34 crowd ik depends on how you sete ‘avngs. Etectve proteclon of 45 slope at 60 degrees fom verte Is quater © much higher fat armor so In that senso you have saved woh PD s72913,420°m 60 degree tom vertical mathomatcaly double he nickness The angle ‘sovgh increases the length of the sheet necessary Io cover the same vores! space, Mave la oa cleo see how this goes for weight savings, ‘ough even tnks wit) verleal armour had twee pieces (Comet hore, Obvious w anyone tough ie tet Smply an angled surece gves more Tetnood ofa base delecton ave tremember atthe cosine tects negaad when he damete are ‘rel is douole the real bicknass of he anor, Thue fe 60 & 75 german uns would have been afocnd, whist the 85mm was not considored ‘Arguments in cher posts above about tet an hull amour hicknosso= consideres thatthe hl was larger thus hit more ofr Afar 3 ve ever hearaitwes found that ttatealy there wee far mote Met his Sha Ml hits, You can soe thie realty in acton in that ae tank wartare dota ware ‘experienced basialy every tank was given increased tet protection. Any Sonal arkar would krow to present he smal! lrgel, a just unoven {orain would make he tet ne taget mera oon. Bul being small” you ‘could ads nrmourithoutadsing as ich weight wel ire cartne tn tsetse ne ee rm ‘Soviet natysisinicated that 81 percent ofhis on T-4s were on te hull ‘and only 19 percenton the tre Pb sits, 10:13AM ‘The one exception was thinking of making was if you wore in Sascatonewan, OK Uaine works a8 wal ‘ut twoukkn® want one balelarestoport be the sole guide to tank design for he word Fr an india county you work wit what youve got My {anecdote was roma ong ime ego when 1200 many books on milly and ‘anks an payed all nas of games Maybe nota dealod ey, but twas considered a basic lonetby myelfand ends Reply eerie voter tein {contibuton no longer ha any efcton heal outcome, only the speadicstotthat ‘As for 28 T-24, 8 ganar clam centre usualy ener on seconcary eects (6 \eamped ture or supertial evidence (eq. equipment loses in the hands of inept Soviet commanders esp-ear war Tose wore te main pins Isisputed. As far as funcsonalty and obi, those arguments are quis seruovs, 25 well INO, because reliably oes snot rapored asa serous isu on fhe Russan side, and ‘8 ar textng of oeign equipment wel, hare are mary inslancesof Russians esting German equioment fr example, and als coming away ntimeressed, Wino proper spare pars ané naive iocrcal rouleago, youre not gonna get reign equipmento peroon as ntendoa hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war (On re whol, 7.34 was a tank that allowed astounding war tme producton in very diteuh condon, was a mono eaty war in good hands, an lle war ha the ght tombinaton of frepowar, mobil and relay fo allow USSR to punch hoes German defense at wil ana to acvance at rats hat ran he Wester Alles coud not aroam ol Ana hate wry thas a very song argument or being the Beet ane in he Roly Replies Christos T. ans, 1227 AM “The overarching Issue of whethor USSR wouldve dofeatod Gormany witout lies is unsnowable realy ‘Wall don't nave a tie machie but by looking at ho losses of each sido IRs prety clear natsomeing has pq. The SU coul not conte to lose 9 many man and equipment against a Germany tat did not have of fonteo worty about WMD 99 AnglorAmeian inarlerence [dont see Row se SU could sunive, ‘As lat 98 T-34, the gana exiam centre usualy ether on secondary fs (69. ramos trator supercialevcenea (63. equpmant oss In th hands ofnopt Soviet commanders, sp. cay wa? ny aia the Ruteans plan an stopping production a the T-4 and moving to the THM? What characerates eid he T=14M have tat ware rent ‘fom tho T-47 Just ey looking ne tel you can see why fie T-34 hag 60 mary problems raat of. 345s notroporsd a @sarousissue on he Russian se, They wore destoyed quieHy #0 hore was na sign of problema rlbiy, 1 sald in "Tankowy udar Soveekie tank v boyy 1942969" tha rolsity was low but since twas higher tan fe ate ont he Russians wore hap. ‘and mats why th wor very arog argument or sing th best tank in te "Wel think we have fo agree to akagree on tha one. Hee Russians wore rot unlucky and fey ad inodueed the T-24M would ages tat would be one othe stank ofthe war a Anonymous 42°9, 642 AM Well 6 main advantage ofthe 7-34 is he simple dasgn and hat made i posible produce ina raator numbers than any Garman PZ tar 1, of Panthers, iets, et “The Germans had superior tanks, bute Russans had fr mor tanks, tus ho T= St ula ber Tanedostoyers and ater anes. Byte way, lam no expert jut someone intrested tanks. a Anonymous 4)2°2,722 Ph Tenoved easing your ana, much of which complaments Paul Kennedy's anais of Russan Army tact in his evant book ENGINEERS OF VICTORY (2013), Kenedy summarizes te US. Anny’ Abordeon erie of ha T34/76 as well. He contd hat Unit 1944, te Red amy had le coice bul lo “eoninue wit the exseng Nawed Irachina” Technical upgrades slong wih Improved batlflé lacs in 7946 Healy timed the T’34¢ nio a tly formdabia war macnne. Even ten, Kennedy ws, “it rushsimproved tank was only one af a mx af Soviet weapons sya” ht detested the German amy. To be fi fo te Russians, however, ENGINEERS" point that ALL the Ales had serous technical robles that weren't sohed unl 1842-944 (Kennedy makes Imsrestng comparsons between the Russian land war, me Bate of the Alto, and the Anglo-American bombing campaign) would encourage you read Omit Lae's fascinating acount, COMMANDING THE FRED ARMY'S SHERMAN TANKS (1996) (you can quest an intro loan copy through yout lea tba), Lara and ni colleagues Iked the Shermans once Bey Tnames how to tke aavantage ofthe M's unigue characarstos (compared t the T34)-Loza eludes a nearouching anecdote ofhis Na bigads ring io a gests Russian vilage ane hookingup plovghe othe Shermans fs oir fas, ve yet 0 taad of eny amy tying THAT wit ber tank, (za wrote a erlar Book on the rmuch-malgned ?39 fighter plane, ATTACK OF THE AIRACOBRAS), Anonymous 4/29), 94 Alt hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war ¥ anybing 2s whole blogpost ound based, where is my evidence you ask? Walt s80ms you gtyour evidence rom American report. nao, donitbulbhtm, America is roan lel anthing foor not made n US ofA ‘Second evidence is you brought up the T-5, 7-82 ane the T-72.Acwaly hoy whore rronkey models ata export madels ana had inert everything compared tthe roa “Te 1-72 you speak of hatost to Abrams was mostly monkey modal and ki oc produce opis o he monkey model with Reakng ian she [Ns 211 Abrams whore dostroyd by so sity Faql local producsd T72M copes Hiaous Replies a Christos T, angi, 87 4M doit ke to bloek comments 2 decide fo post yours avon tough Idoubt IReontbuteeanyeng. ‘Wali seems you got your evidence rom American reper! ‘he repor onthe T-3t salty fs German. Combat oss Aussan dai, Hyou ke fhe T24 go mien check he rpor ‘at used i combat hiplehienil-comer blogspotg20"310Igerman- levaluston-feapuredsovetnin| “Second evidence is you brought up the T55,T-62 and the T-72, Acly sey where monkey model le atnhat hey fl yu in Russa? The fret two were anninate bye Me 48, M50 ana Cention, Al free wore compare fo thom in every ‘alogory and sil combal loses were very lopsided, Must be my Ds {As forthe 1-72 90d Zalogs's MI Abrams Vs 1-72 Ura: Operaton Desert ‘Stor 1997: Also google ‘Sate af al Burgh krws you might eam someting. Reply Anonymous 5/53, 1248 Plt 1 good read and it debunks te myths propagated on the History and Discovery Reoty Anonymous Si"3, 605 Ah | very inarsting atl, bul one hal sidestops an important issue when evaluating overall perfomance ‘Simply put The Red Army won the war not only won i But anise their fopponant by most accounts 75.60% of Garman loses wore a9 the Easter For) = fand they di mainiy wih We T-24, Progucton numbers for ober pes pale by comparison, (one can argue the loss about the rolatve mais of quay versus quanty, but he ‘smpio facts hat est Baos in slay have been won byte largor army and, fom Kursk nar, there was narly a major bate in wich the Soves cule flat least ice as many men, tanks, eller and ara (het asta fat ofan forgoten ‘alr opporens and in many cases the raos were much ‘decuesons ike freee) higner ‘ha Red Army, arte cessor of 1941142, f 2 mastercase in erms of rcrulment {29 _millon. olsers sung the period 1941-45), reequipment and ro-odueaton of bot ofcor an ested men to he pot hat despite losing anywnore Bolwo fd ten mlon men, I had mere conbathardened solr, offers snd general atfan all otrerarmis inthe world combined on VE day. Furtermore, wnstiver you may tink of regard fore ives ot own solders, had a huge cadre of offcers educated in ho at of ld, mobila warfare on a massve ‘ale (Operaton Bagraon cared a area tice te size of Franen in oss than So Irons) Hasn'the 4 eared sone Kudos in at oepect? Howser ancl may som, twas widely xpectes near te ‘SU was able vanster sx sms 7000 mi hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! ofthe war, an for rrany years afterwards, thal the Ree Army woul syply sweep across Bie whole of Weeiem Europe; and one wonders shor of nuclear etalaton, tere was actualy anyhing te sop ts inorosing roto that within 3 months of e Bate of Ben. he asta and rele Mancha 317sono ays CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war nat Japaneee amy of vera millon men; aking more Japanese POW that Engle operason than the US and all their alles had In four yoars of Pact ‘So: maybe not tho tchnoteical or costoficient mans is bt claimed to bs but Next Di he Spire win he Bate of tain? >) Reoly Letme bri access some ofyour pine Throughout he period 1941-64 hey sufered a rao of 41 oflostos against Se Gomans in manpower (sist aos for armored vahiles ana vera). These kind of loses would not be austinaole tha Germans coud concentrate al heir frees in the East. So next tme you present tis Srgument take minuto ink ofthe NA, Bly Balle of he Abani Bomber Ofensive, Nomandy invasion ang NW Europe campaigas, could’ eld atleast wc as many man tanks aly and aera Yes but tha is @ direct result of the growing Involvement of 6 Anglo- ‘matcans and the ealapse of Kay ‘had a huge cade officers educated inthe artof hid, mobile wafer on a massive seal Toul disagree here | coud lak about Bis mare bu pin you to the ancl ‘Anatyang Woré War Ease fort bates inne Joumal of Slavic itary Stes Hasone T-34 eamed some kudos in hat espect” Ini caso te anewers no. Howover fhe Svits thought fern sinco ‘hey contnund lobule thi vehicle oven ine postwar years, Kup lo you eplecsices 1 was widely expected near the end of the war, and for many years stervarts, Bathe Red Amy would simply sweep across the whole ot Westem Europe: and one wonders if shor of nuclear retaaton, re was acualyanying sop veal worse my apinin onthe Sow millay becomes! hin Ive covered tia: htpivieinebeomer blogspot grZ012n2mate Fprian-1940-svengt-eports. nm ‘Anonymous 13,435 Pk “Throughout poriod 1841-4 hoy suo a ato of 4 flossas against ‘2 Germans in manpower (iar alos for armored vehicles ana vera). These kind of loses would not be austnaole the Carmane cou concent all heir forces in the Ens. So next te you present tis Bomoer Ofensve, Nomandy nvasion ana NW Europe campaign, Fiat take ise with your fgues cesinly posible hat uring the et (and wors) 12 months, when the Eastern font was pty much te only fon sere was, and the Red Amy ebsorced a sores of disasters, Isso wore as you dose ‘though ter char (tte rkipada orgie Work Warlknltay-deabsin-Europe-by Beteyserong woud Spestoberise he feral cas. Me of ‘Second: Noch Atica was a sidashow for the Gamans, who adit ven pu ‘as many solders nto te campaign as they had in Finland unl aor Eh ‘lamin and Operation Torah The ‘act at te Alles look a many Prisoners at Tune as the Russans did at Silingrad says more abou! ‘Worrmactt nubris than anying ela, and bares no alton the number fof mon ivlies or the bratty of the Sehng. And Kaly was 8 lmitod tampaign that ran up egaial bad lek and bad tran: and commander (Kersckng) who proved a fr beter detrave general than ofersve Ar ars ‘Thi: D-Day dart start ui hatay through tho last yar ofthe patiod you nl, curing which time fhe Red Sem Mad metehed fom Moscow and Leng a Warsaw and tom Stalingrad saat he gates of Budapest hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! sou?sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war and Woerataé an ara tee tas the lz of Wester Europe. lang baties, end the efleacy of te lass, pariclarly in the peed you ‘scribe, ie sla mater of debate, {2 Targe part of whese miltay wansport system (40,000 vehicles; not ‘monton "7,000 tanks and almost 2 millon fons of 08) was provide wa [As the rost- Im not guts sure what youre saying: Are you aeputing he "he second fone’? Or ma bythe en ofthe wa, ey sdthave etleasta dozen Feld gonorals wih exporenco of opraions not only bigger. but 8 ‘eres bigger han any ever undertaken bye Westem general facising Deyand Oxnawa}? een you tan Russa, 1964 i known a “th yoar of 10 vires = ‘and hoy, tm hale Polish and so no fond of he Soviets: but cea whore Winston ase keep in mind tat he fn t a forum, | tink some of your questions ‘can bo answored by looking at oor essay Ive wit hrs Frat ak eave win your gure, Ir sory bt thse are the fs. Koop in ming hat | orto combat losses forte Sovet ede and se ofeal German repre available rom several, Nope oso campaigns swallowed a larg pat of Aus resources. Just ho ‘omer afersive fons te Germans fo bul ak reunion wie ook pa large percentage of ha overall weapons budge, ‘Aso rox -mnot gute sre what your saying rie an e56ay 1 answer your questons. Check ihe aici Imantoned and earch st fordatn Anonymous 5/135, 805 Plt led astag, of cepured. The Germans and Weir allos meanwhile ost 10, ‘lon id, missing, or pamanenty disabled. Etecovely, ne rao 154 not, which samc move reals igure. However, most silat" comparisons vary dshonesty count only he gure of Germans led in acton = 4 millon - hus ang at he fabled 47 or Moreover. is wonh nai thatthe mia population of he Sovit Union fbove 4 eal or te resutot bad secountng encther common dnonest ‘ccovtng tee feo acd _cvlana_t the Soviet daa fo, wis countng| German malta loses ony, eve Gerrans wly were icing 41 feaos conscripted during the war! counlapars, and some studies estmata hat ane German solder was the ‘squ'valent of £5 Alig slcior ving wih the hones kl ratios), However. beyond histone! reais; especialy given how poory people understand what mage tne Geman amy ao efacve foi was nether nea tanks "superar equipment 0° aloy-tog SS uns. I oles down fo 8 superar (General Stata outstanding juno fier abe), hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! a7sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war "Thats because Sov sees wer overeat. The 4:1 manpower loss ato Isbases on bas accountng bn my piece thought was clas in that ese s= tiled, wounded, missing in ‘action. fs not jst ile. And yes he rao was signi over 41 for pood {94%-id, This doce include roughly Tmin Soviet losses of 198% that votheev admits he dan teaver (roto meson other problems wih some oth gure), a sans taa oareen te basy es emo paras 2 Se cet Motta specter eat pe ek SSateraay Chien ie se ah Shea a dro Uae renee sot SStuteavnpe cnt sen ae ote Tinian Stan emaryar ny nace as son caeatnactet cr tated a Christos T. an 0r19,951 AM Wall nave a few sats on hand 1). Regarding tanks: According to ‘Pancertuppen’ thy had 814 wih Pe Regt and in early '¢t ant in May 42 tore are 363 in Pz Regt’ ana, 2), Regarding steal the Germans had an entre Air Fleet in the Mod (Piegerorpa Xen Lutote 2) wih 35 planes in tune '€1 and 925 uly 2, (Source: "Lutwafe data book] 3}. Regarding nuke in “Supplying War, p185 says about way '42.ne demended snoter 8.000 nuek far his Supply columns. This was out of he {qusston since t fe Sime al fur Geman armored groups operating In Russia could mostr only 14.00 lores bolwoun tm Reply Reply Replies a Christos T, 59119, 1127 Pu tm notealy hat inertia on the KIS tanks to wie separate asay on sham, Ink mat he KY wae considered tobe more or las are while ‘91S has ahuge gun butonly caiod 28 rounds. Rwas sot againa fod positon but na eal in ak wa ep Anonymous 5/185, 755 Pit \While ho aricle makos sors good points - most pariculary th of orgoten fact hat the T-34 was not actualy the most humerous fark nthe Soil tank park unl 1948 (Geto ten twas the Nght tanks that dominatad) Rt makes the classic mistake of ‘inking that WW2 tanks engaged primary in ankv tank combat. “is is spy not te ease, The vast majonty of Ts ost enemy re was due to towed antsank gine, nat he Wermachts Pancere. Te simple fac fhe mater is hat Wo tanks were primar eit infant support weapons or expltaton forces. Ava tank vs tank belles were exceedingly rave, but hat hasbeen largely frgatan because rocentwars 69. The Gut War, Arab-ra0 Wr fated most tank lank ates. Hones, any analysis of WW? tanks must actly revolve stan oremostatound a) “Thai ably support any tacks and ») Tha abil o sustain fonare advances by nat eroakng down. Pading eforencesbelweon cow comfrs of PanzorIV and 4 (wien realy, atalyof6 mere inches in siteroncas ems of row space sete) or te penetaton values of he 75mm LAB ve the Te 762nm gun are honesty not great measures of judging a tank, because these factors actualy do not rater for 90% of he bates fough by tose tanks, hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war bho regard, ne T-34 i tank har was simply adequate forthe as athand, and is ‘qualte he Sherman ore Panza V. tis arly beter ante o-raisoa Panthor rigor, hich wae aculyUtedy bad at infonty suppor or exleatonstacs Being {ood at antank ware al the expense of verig eee when tomprses ess han 10% of your wekoad is te vary caiton of ols ever-speciazaton Zinegata Reoty Replies “Thisenita frum so dontspam he comments ‘Aculankv ankles were exceedingly rare Read ‘Furor Touloricus: German offensves and counleratacss on the Eastom Fort, August 1983 io March 1965 in the Jour of Slaw Ray sues “Tir ably o support intake nm so what happens when the enemy secises play by eifeent rls and uses his arated foe again! yous? Oh fght yout amor wil be ‘laughed, Kind of whathappened in WH, orice mt vanessan man nun eo ment searcaainanits ea pean ocr aon ‘upland be Sec nets eps os Tete San, Moe ce ig Sn Sida Dee wees onan rab noes Littell aati atime taynieee nape anya Midmancnae teen wine bine oo ces sretagcvel ova ete comma Ce eres tt cure re a KR 572913, 3:14 PRE ound tr tetintoratng in some pons, nevertheless, stk the anger tne" used fon tand inal fires siscusson. would ke o propose siinr analy atthe sme perspactve of aber lanks whi are rol clases asthe “Best of WMT sue a8 the ‘Amencan MA Snemmen. would bo parculryinsresang i see whch would Bethe ‘rplanaton found fits aor nicknames as! Ronson byte Bris based on popular fof igaata ghar in UK at a Sie = "Ranson (4) - igh up fel rw, every time, or he Purple Hear by the Americans themsehes, he Burning Grave by he Pole, and others many oer, indeed, tinny names. Adisonally, some explanation about the Sguree on Harmon book rlted fo th level of repticement inthe Se Jmoured under Paton which was around $80%, or why only one orginal tank commander has suvivad fom Normandy tothe ond ofthe war on a regiment of he ‘ey Armoured. Of cours, on tis anaes shoul be inlies te opinions and Sure notonty tom he American Amybutalso he Bith, France ané oar ames Roly Replies hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war Christos 7. szaria,1429 Pm ‘The problem is that tok an unboievnble ant of work to got al tis Infomation forthe 74,20 1 dont ant od the same ting or ancther [As for ho Mé Shorman according to Zaloga’s “-2485 vsNZ8, p28: The ‘Amercan tanks, however, benefted fom US armored combet experienc In 1942-43, which showed the wrerabity othe Sherman to calasrophic ‘damage due lo ammunition sowed nthe hull sponsor This uation los 2163 program tht removed te majly of te anmuniton fom the Sponsors and places it im ight amore stowage bins Inthe oor. This Teenton reduced the fkalhoos of te ammunizon being hit during a penatatin, and 20 aso reduced Me possblly of devastating lank tes Wwhien were usualy causod by Ignted arsmuniton. The ighay armored famine bins were not well enough protcid fo prevent panetalion by 2 iret hit, but they were adequate to reduce te yuneraily of the ‘anmunisontolgnon by spallor step fora penevaton” Regarding casuals the problem for fe M4 was that ite armor could be neta tom long dtsnces not only by the Panter and Tiger But aso {rom tne Pz ana Sig Ih rer KwK 40 gu, Same thing was ue forthe 7-34 yotpeopl only ak about the Ma losses (Deathrepe book el) a PD 6727113, 1047 AN ‘Comparing te 724 tothe ME is @ maura Not jut because of he sniaily In mass proauctan but also ofthe relive equity n gun, moby, armour ‘and ofcourae the natura aly Betweon tne US and USSR post Wl ‘Despts any changes t shell storage In 1943 twas In Normandy Bathe ak 40 gunners haa els ay blowing up Shermans. The tnkors werent overly npressed with how mary af tet Bude go! oasid and wondered why thay were stuclc wh a tank that was 20 easy to il whe Tigers and Panmers ware much ugher and had such Petar guns But Hey Thee ‘ere was always a replacement anki rs was damaged. To go hand in hand with ene of th myo" ef the 24's speed, sme ole tank devere sais te ht cou oly tits supposed tp speed twas going down a 17940. my ops in everywhere ereonaly youl tink at ne Ale could have lndad in Normandy with @ beter tank than the Mit (as wall as Cnurenils ana Cromwell) hen hat ‘Siey must Nave kxown whal was going on out east ss well as Rei own fexpatences in tay A oast Mey could have maunled a Songer gun the ‘6 Bris manages fo do wih he Frey, but didnt win Hor thers aoe. quess they may have boon acted resootng nm Fgh o us fired ter feces, the at power and numbers would overcome any leheal Getctoncis, Sort of ks ne Russians pomaps. Like the 1-4 anohordecer ‘ark, not the one you probably want ' be in fr any one bat, but probably one you's bul i you ware eying io win @ war, bl din have Sonttyourset, az spring, 1151 AM Wall never said et he Ma was 9 effect tank. 1946 Us amrae we obsolete agains praccally al te German weapens (same a6 fa T-34). owover always fr isarge tat people absoss overt ans and how ltwasa Tory cooker but th T-4 gets ee pass! ink ha ea ari was defnialy beter than the TSA (nt exacly @ tumph of engineering hon oe thinks ofthe many faults ofthe 7-34.) Repy PD s27113, 193 PR ‘hares reason people the slag the MM. twas Ametcan and he americans theo 9 on about how thoy won both work wars. So anyone wit any antarsacan saniments woul never consider © admtanying as qunlassontal tthe USA a ho 1a could po953 be any good. The aematve's someting opposie io Be USA. And bofcouresnotbeing me periacttans he Ml was ria forensiem, Boh te T34 and me Mi ds te ob. Nelner was perfect Tey nad come fetes beter than the ater: Gyo ine Maa goad tor. Diesen the T3t prevented too many fros. The veryimporantcommané cool was bet with a§ man ew ae radios and opteatison. T34 a smal age! and faster o explo! breaktoughs, But ae you pont but nara to fre accurately on the move while te MA gyro would ava baen © bg Aadvanlags. Bom said If as prety compotive tank. Te T34 had beter armour, Frepower, mobility over Garman tanks al he sar of Barbara, but there wate ow af them, and Ks, But he Germans mounted he LEO and th LA and tat got ham i proty much a araw win f6 T34, but they had botor conenand contol, tactics and Frining, Soviets iso made improvements os hey discovered (he need, Radios, hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com ri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-besark-o- warm!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war erent tuethatches, tet shapes all the while fighting a bet war ‘The MA went golo North Afics suddenly gave the Alls tank ht was sound al sraund ang could compete or beter the Wand V. They also upgunned, just not quick ‘snough for ma. Too Bae they cnt just moun th 17 Iba on al tanks prior D-Day. “Tatas probably logis issue, Reply Happy Md 5:11/3,5.32 AM ‘Tha touble is by msar onwards, almost lank ara vuhersble to 76mm Pak and Baran guns, even te Panther and Tigo! Tink he Brisshconended this, ana by 44 were looking for "Sensible" level of ema, rane han an iwunerasie one. Froty was a good answor'o German cals, especialy because Radéed almost no oxta sain 6 logs - Ma and 17pat. wore aleady common Alled inventory. ASO CChalenger mayos to, bu dont anow because Bit tanks ere scandelousy unde researched USS. enould nave Heansed 17pde. + protsad HE shell, Al none nas problems {ovelopng APY most iiosyncrate Some give Germans foo much ofa ee pass ~ Panther had huge problems in Normandy. Some give too much cede Russians. Not surprise by eiams of T= n a alee - commanders even patarred Valentines, aczocing to ropors Replies a Christos T. ei 1/19,498.801 “Tink he Bish conceded this, and by "4 were looking 6 a “wena ‘you sre about hat? The new Centurion tank was quite heavy ana well protectediarmed. you look atts sass ts sna tothe Panter Anonymous 7117/9,11.26 PM (Good read, he artes as wellas the sousion! Reply Low ifs months 01, but enjoyed the arco and ensuing dlscussion vory much Thanks! suspect pa of he praise is due to expectations - anyone staring fo read about the Fes Army leams about ts low qualiy, righ quansty reputation. so equipment thats 20d (not tet a pleaant epi. Nat lo menton tings wouldve Boe fr Worse forte USSR win ‘But eticzing the Tee relay has include discussion of he raiabilly of other tanks Did he Panne resk own al the be a0? Final dive ok, Reply Replies a Christos T.—asiia,1125 Pm ‘Didnt the Panter break sou alte ie 20? For s94 hipiehisiteLeomerblagspotg?201SI03Hes-samed-les-ana-aastes- cate-othint For 1946 Jentz in "gar andi combat tastes! glues th operational aos fr PW. Panter and Tigo for May 4, SoptJan 45 and March 46. #you calcula be average without March 4 (aue lo ellipse o! Germany) you'd Easter Font Pz W-7t ,Panmer 8, igor Westem Font Pz WT? Panter-68. Tiger Diterntvenetes, same sas. Forlgn Mitty Sides P-040 Tank Repalr Serve in he German Army’ ~ 1951, says tal he Panther was sont he ‘ron wihou adequate spare pats hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! marsono (Christos miliary an inteligance corner: WWI Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war Reply a Anonymous 9/°0/9,9-99 Pt otorum workdotanks comvindexphp?Mople2616&E-Nstica-scta-araip$34/ you might want oad Wis, cuz unfortunatly. daspie EE's occasionally vse humor, he is ono ofthe beter Sot lank rosonrehers one, ara have ty, he points out many ofthe aus with your area ere Pereonaty a say ho const is astvaen Mt, T34 and SUG tlfor 26st AFV ofthe war, bt tats juste Reply Replies Christos T, 916119, 109 PM ‘Tanks for wastng my Um "EE oceasiontly crude hum, he is one of the Bator Soviet lnk guess that could be Yu but Lean’ say Ise any poo of tat in what he ‘urvabily. He justrpaate all fhe usual fylalns 34 basttank hoor, Soma oft things he wrote te simply dumb. For example: ‘Wi already covers now he Soviets cesifes anything sick inthe mis as “ost ‘i already covered now he Soviets clesifes anything stick inthe mis as “ost ‘hats prety good tue! ‘ots Germans and Soviets couniad detoyedtnkshe same way. Outing Datla tore ae tanks tet ar knocked out and can be repre Out yealy Slices nce vehicles that are compte dastoye. cant go syough every pnt but you gtihe lea, Mostathis comment are ihr dumb or beso fo port. c3s0s whore sassics como up he doesn’ understand! what hey mean, whi Is something ve also seen in ‘er ineret tou, Russia stooo00000n9 party you can do beter han his! a Anonymous 0117/99, 1220 0M [An yo, he clatsic "MeCarmy” debating lacs. My opponeat it a sity commeturean. IWIN, Sorry. no. Losses were in Inc ecatded diferent in Be Garman and Sov German only cour toa, novocable losses whieh cannot be recovered ‘This why Nedas Zeterng'sunpaaleed work on German ank losses ‘Normandy showed the vast mejoiy of German losses being reported in Seplomber, insiene of August when the fighting happened = pecause ‘Septamber was when they declared al thse lank as avacabl losses, Soviets onda to count any tank sont back oth factory asa fs. Meaning ‘The US ha a diferont accountng matrod, counting unrecoverable losses, lostas whies had lo be sono he factory, and losses whieh cous be repavresin ets, a Christos T. 97119, 1248 aM ‘My dear fond , you can WIN (hoorah 36 muchas you Ike butte loss ‘lise for various Soviet equipment are avaliable fom Soviet Casualties fand Combat assesin the Twente Century For the Gorman side thre are various sources a8 Ihave pointed out The ‘nly ne that gies AFV losses by type and by year in he East spacial is ‘2 repotin Wen ong Geheimwaten des dutsonen Heeras 1939 ~ 1048 278, The yoy sans, hitpiohris-intel-coenee blogspot com bri2012/07twwi-myths-+-3-bestark-o- warm!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war | pointed cut before that dueng an operaton some vehicles wil be non operational. These were not eounlod oe dosbayed unless af course hey had to be bandanas. Tiss someting that can aft he comparison ot ‘casuatiosin an operaton note nal number. My sdvie it oud the books in the sources secon. That way you lly ear something and youl be abe ta WN even mere Anonymous 1010/13, 1008 am amazed by how easly you maton tat th 7-34 only raquies 8000 mar-nours (in 1841, oss ltr on. Tiger tank equtes same 109000 man-hours, eventhough Industral abourprosuety inte USER was only aughy hal hat of Garmany (hats not oven hourly producti: te Soviets worked longer Nous). OF eauree te 7-3 i ot indedually, the oughest opponent you might face. uit was vary neat Be Best tank mat cul bo produces by a secondvatandustial power at mars than 1000 units permonth Reply Replies a Christos T. 10/1019, 1100 Fm ‘ner dd you get ne 190.000 man-nou's gure? What does tinctude? she ca80 ofthe 24 I dont know Hit eer to assembly oly oral tho Indiv components, "twas very neany the best tank nat oould be produced by a Seconda industrial power at more a 1000 units per month, Nope withthe facies, workers and raw mates they had they cous produce much ster vehicles Reply Anonymous 1025/19,537 AM ‘Tha T34 in he hands of he Finnish amy had a much higher hilratewnen fing TSA rmanes by rans, was a bad tank ang since he rssin cowed no ening rade ta complate ath ap Reply Anonymous 1225/13, 308 PM Tiger was re bos ank oft war. Reply Witla Mann 1127/16, 6:00 AM “Tank youtor posting he wut! erly Anonymous 2/48, 505 PM ‘para T4 defects, such huge losses are au to he way te savas use hem. ‘AS usul thay simply do ot cae about sses..agenetlpreferes ose al his men ‘and tanks witha series of sled atacxs man fae NKVD. Soviets wan the war simply because they could aft auc ostes mich blr than he gemans nan sftlton war numbers ae ete tan lly ‘Germans developped hor oltzrog as ey know tater only hope sa fastwar...n fa Fong war the winna ste one who has more resource. 89 the Soviet wit hie Jae and mions ofnfanies Roly Ccheckov 524/14,420PM CGuseran inspector of armored toops wanted fo conceals almost entraly on 3 models Panthr Tie’ and en astaul gun wih 2" high veloc“ wespon.tcanrecal the exact date but want 2a) 1943, (rom panzer leade Reply hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! se?sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war Repiies a Christos T. 52414, 1005 Pm Wall ae he war gone wel for the Gormans hey would nave epiaced he P2IN win the Panther 89 n 1943-45 tey would have Tiger, Panther and probably Sig VP2V 70 large numbers. Repy a Anonymous 5/28/14, 5:50 PM Creal arile Chvisiow! Cveryne is aktays mouh.breabing he whole “T-34 ws the hora of MBS" but prefer fo see be Panza’ il as He MUe ancestor Because of layout ough tne 2man tet on the Mark may nave dawn Inenoe om he Viewre Mesum Make hore a nk tpn wikipedia orgwkiVikere Macium_Mark_| sony for Wikipedia but 1 doubt people woul le about hats sed see fhe Bish da not soem understana that vari Suge Bunny 654,19 98 84 ‘Yet sil 124 Sghtng in 2 canary nome not spat" aroun te globe and rest ot the "compation" oes. Inks THE botom lin of is discussion. Reply pies B= aise, 1155 9M letnatby choles orby nacessty? eres sons tiotpuetetoe rsh an aa Repy Jig Carlo Fernandes 6/9/16 9:17 AM TCI testing mynbuse aril. would say he TS¢ ha its advantages, he smal 822 (raking ites easy 0 spot) an speed, but what wood for he Russans were the rumbors rather tna te mechanical Sets ofthe tank. Same pile asthe Sherman, Wien was mote ratabl On 2 ranking Is, | WOU sl Wola the Sherman above because ere abi, a Darren Howls 7/14, 620 M1 Ineeaiog ead but miss based and assumotions galore. You assume the Russians pace he same emphasis on comfort and sunivabity ashe USA. Won, ‘No 60 oxponsive versus 100 cheap? {eee of he German W72 model was mare lk 6-100 bat 0-00, And hat son rumbors alone notaolr per dolar east. Using your carolelay negate account fe 36 at avery um ean you explain ust how te Russians fought the Garmane to a sandal usng THe a8 fe primary weapon sven siough sey whore tacealy deeiont at every vel? “The Russian los housands of them but sl wih Bravery and its aavantagoe in numbers combined wh is KY pares fought ne bast amy in Be world ana wer. By tho time the Sherman aries in Europe in Jun 44 "me war hae aeady been decided, Tigers and Panthers greattanks butte expensive and oe Forall e negatives th T-4 cared he wart tha Camans and deletes them maybe rot on a one or one but hat was never the Russians mathod of warfare 0 why Compare oem mal wey? Roly Replies Christos T. 7H hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012/07twwi-myths-+-3-bestark-of warm! s1a7eMsono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war a Nests at read be text and en we comment twe have ‘so 50 expensive versus 100 cheap? {Base of fe German VW? mode! was mre Ike 6-100 bot $0-100. And ‘alison numbers alone not olla por doar cost Whatever you say boss: hipitisitoheomerblogspotg20180 Rank-srengh-andlossor. ‘Next sme Koop your comments short and tote pont. Alo it would be a 008 idea to spend ‘ow mule wying thd dats lo eippot your fraumentRtokme afew seconds to tokio the progucton and oer, Anonymous 1 ‘ranks, by fr tho most ingen response Ihave read. Ths was a great acl though and enjoyed roading everyone's opinions Reply liye Mereiyakow 71014, 1246 PM Wal avering, exeptineastpassage is ight. 1-628 sutras heey detest fom se fo © te supe arab command. ransraq war +825 and 72 slaughtered chietans Reply Hemvy Soviel tank asses in Ara-rael wares sid Arn command ‘Hoary Sovit tankless in GulfwarF sup Saddam commans tet etc but yeah its me command, note tanks. PS: You forgot ne monkey-model excuse! Reply ‘As rofreshing 2s ts to see an opinion pace supporto by cos and rterncos, the acl ll comes off asa bi of srawman basting, The ano slates up Fon thal 9 “ryt regeding Be Tt capabilites exis bul provides no evidence of Bis mh | dont mink any sevious student of these maters hes ever misiaten teeilon Productions made for mass consumption va tw History Channel to be a sereus [aniomplion of tie 7-4 place inhsary. that fe oly evidence of he “mth” bere was never myth beg wih “Te conclusion thal ho“ lagacy ld he Russians invest in quanti over quay, ‘A mistke tal Bi Alles pald deaty” seems to ignore the reals of te Second Word War, 2 escusse vary wal by ohn Els in his book BRUTE FORGE. Tne war vwsen fought wi ater Balls in the Mica East in mind was a desporaa siege fought in'@ state of near ealanic shock afer the Garang reeled of astonishing vetoes in 183041 against unprepared Allad nations, Deeps he fl he Germans Were using fait conventional reds (ityou wana wrio about mys Blitz a foozy), hes technolgial advantages scares the Ales white, ana itseoma the only way ey could manage ah advantage io fight back was 0 use er incUsal power “nis ty in spades, Tan vs. fanksomparsons are rather pois - re stfothe schoolyar, Ailey accounted fo ve vast rayoiy of ling onthe Second Word War atl, and Ells points out the Importance of amaur inthe study of Second Wora Wieroperatone is exangeratea Reply Replies Boiron nsec en na cua tr Sey ePattea he anos hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! austsono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war ofeated the allsittey had produced les tanks in favour of mre arian. [Even an single eneeched MG can cause more infty casualties than 3 ‘ark ut T0WMGe seo leser acta vale han an a ‘posnae yw 10516, 11:96 AM ‘Germany woul nt win anyeay. Bu nthe ease of alan guns have alot ofparamstrs omer than numbars Foroxamle, ne ring range, hn area of damage, the kajectory oe bite Ruswan arly in comparison wit he German ll hese parameters Under milar aber al above. ws take ta ld artey Foroxample, 10.5 om oF 18 had Sing ange of 10.5 kn (7076 unis inthe Wwebnmacl) and 122mm AB - 188 klometers (2450 un in Be Red ‘my ‘and sie rats have be aroun forall sma guns Anonymous 6/108, 7-50 PI ‘Year art Vietnam war Robert MeNemars recount a8 stayin “Te Fog of Wa recounted a sory, Viemamess Ganeral was told by an Amenesn Genral atthe US ever los aie "sandup" bate during the course ofthe war. The Vietnamese (General agreed nat was tue butte sstod hl was als irlavant (OK so the T-34 sured nuge losses as did the Soles as @ whol, some ectnaes atripte 18 ofa deaths during te war to psosle inthe Sowet Union. The facthat Mey {ould and di ake suc loses regardless of why they si helped speed he German doteat Sometning tat could have been a very etd Fgh weit tem. shudder thnk now 0-Day cous have gone hose Amy Groups fom ho Eas Font wor in France. Germany could not abso those iypes of ses at even a Faction ofthe rae Russgn id. But ine al analysis, on te Eastern fam Russian came out oh top ‘hat cansiny had amfeatons fore ool war, ut for WHI ay thay T-4 was a eat apis angel relevant. get he concept of song the record sight an ake ho Issue wh tat pat Buti ho ond (a bast inte east) one dog won the fight regardless of how ay dt “ne fact Is you can trow cata a me problem and amar gonoral all day ong but data wil al show inangbles and inangbles win ware. On paper who would belive brat a 8" 110s. man would be 2 badass. And yet Audie Murphy was the most ‘ecoraed US solder othe war, Nt saying the thing was not desth ap, tm sure here are the ghosts of many Sowets who would agree. But by m6 sams toke hen ghoss of a Iot of Naas wearing thie Asscheecks forearms woul agree, ali ilovant Reply Le aerrme ened nase dontet ‘Ate tactic pons: ‘One of he rast imporantleranis of he T-24 (and subesquent Soe ane Russian tanks fr tat mato) was the fow height f ho vehi. This Is why was sgn fearty beter than fe WM Sherman, which rose s whol oot higher, making Wa mich easier tagatiore enemy, ‘Simla the Sharman hae atop speed of 4048 KM por hour, compares to the 34s 53 KM per now. ‘fon broader pons You have completly ignored the noton of taining and iaderehip. Yes, Sot tank ‘nen were generally woree Wained and led tan thelr German counterparts, Mats key in explaining te heavy Soviet tank besos. "You have ignored he rol of aca arly, infant, and soon. Garman srengths in ‘many of hese afeas als Malpo exolain he hgh Sowa ank oss. Your scononse anaiyss Is fealy week Command economies cannot sinoly rmanufachire as they wih, thy sill must use resputes, which cost money, fe, Replies a Christos T.—azaive, 1038 aM You sla ‘one ofthe mastimportat element ofthe 134 (and subsequent Sowel and ‘ussan tanks for natmater was a ow heightofte vic. Wl natis mostly tu for postwar aks. “This why Iwas elgnfeanty Weber then the Ma Shetman, wich rosea whol foethighe, hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war ‘id the Sherman suer 45,000 losses? So it would stem that he height Gforence dnt mater tat much... in general such erences ae ‘esringloss over medumJong dances. ‘Simtany, he Snerman hada op spe “Tose numbers ae mesingles since they reer to speed that could only be reached ata paved road. nat mates for tanks Is sab over rough fern and hore he 74 was dead lst, As forts pod aavaringe wih ho standard 4-speed gearbox t would be 1Skain Superior Sov engineering Fw “You ave completly ignore he noon oftaning and lnaderahip (on the onary, | wrote an enire paragraph explaining how a “cheap! eathap wil esutin novendous crew losses an low lve oporrmance forte hasty vanes replacements “You have ignored the rae of area ail, infant, an 30 0. ‘Thatis vue but Im not wting a Book on he East font only an essay on ner, "Your economic anayss is eal weak hen okay com ‘Command economies cannot simply manviacie 8s they wish hey sil aslse sours, whieh costmaney, me, sources, and more. Exactly, which s why I points out ata 30 ton vance wit an aluminum engine ould only have been cll ‘cheap’ and easy to produce By the Sovels, Erenone eee undertoodthattwasnota cheap vehicle By tho way if you respond add your name as | don ks to reply t ‘oneraut Reply Anonymous 9/508, 743 Pt xcatont ste wi great nfo! Thanks! Reply a Adam Caer, 103114, 1237 AM Seying that Soviet Union would have won enywey snot an argument says meet Rosen patot repeating nat inorder fo mate fhe group ey secocat hemeehie= wih appear superior. Itiove Germans wouldhave won fe Alias hadntleeactad them on omer heats | araidesng that they bul over 1000 submarines instead of 30,000 - 40.000 Panther tana, over 3000 V wort) fhe ame ax 8000 17 000 Agher aia, a ha of the Lutwate and many dvsions being inthe wes. 75% of he Lutwafe casuals wore infieies by ho wosiom alos, mans nover had ary problems countaring he Soviet Aifores, they simply got ttl auinumbored asa rsul of tending thei aoee a coher fons Aled bombings alo playes a huge patin damaging German producion rosuting nse arramont boing sent fe fort. Even the lant Wal erawn much Dfessental menpower and ressources. Moreover, wostm Alles superied UdSSR wih aviaton telnet helping them in achiving ai suparioty, They alo sent them rafond oquipment and whesled Vonies mateng their armies mabie, Mabity was probably te most mporantctcal facior In Wwi2 bats. Than they provided parts and gear Soviet Union count produce by hese. Many T34 motors wore mado of Anricanalluiniym of which Soviet Union dnt produce much, that why thay Bought so much fom Germany betoe operation darbaroosa, ADout 4055 8 of ordnance used by te Sovele we contributes by Lona-Lease. Thy oven sont hom boot, mes and fod which wat of ‘sreatimporance ator Garmans captured ukraine. Te lis goes on [Al of is mage i possible to concentrate on pracueson af mote tonne armament ‘Sree Soviets didnt need fo care anymore about many goods wnle Germans had provide everyting by hemaslvos ané oven support ho aes ory untkaly UdSSR woul have won by hers hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono Reply CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war ‘pocnae Mysoons 104,452 AM you by being rasonable, main support of Alios was poial. Economic atsslanoe was of courte important. bul id not playa dacisve fle. The Iain ing tates Deen achieved le make ul re promis 1941 fo open 3 testa font, Nazir fet f90 eomorable in Europe ing he whole fconomy, hd opportunites. tanks tpsited in Rena, the Loops rested in Scancinava, France, Ea. andthe movement of Yoops tok few days ‘rough he troy (Give an example ofthe Warsaw Upsing, when the plan of National Amy” general Komorowste concise tut-cala hoses wit te Soviet Union t> ‘vido alles ator te overhrow of he nazi was o bog. Unos States ana Briain would Be force to break he allance wih he Soviet Union. Al he ‘same ine, logeter Komorowal and Goebel began a campalgn of Kal propaganda in westem meda, alnaugh Is sll ot explained fom whore ome bullets fom MG machine gun in the bodes of Poles. The rest would bea Staton io which Germany would Become analy of Bain and 1s Unig Stas in he war aganstine Soviet Union. As Church planned. 1845 his plan "Unthinkable tre alloges atlaceon the Soviet rion in ‘Se pring oft Broa and German PO. 0 think te main ting that itwas posible «st keep allance uns! the ‘ond ofthe war despot fast poy of Chur tseors me hat he ‘death af Raosover, who was abwaye a fiendehip wih the Soviet Union just bette te operation “Unthinkable was not accidental. Ana Be appearance of to profesist Truman too. Recsovelt led fe Unie Sais out of ho ‘real Deprosson, the economy was improve oof peopl was ingrove. ‘Truman jst bombed Hiroshima Nagasak and bepah he Cold Var Plies was moreimportatin my epnion No ofnse but dowsnt this dscusson belong In a forum? As Ive sad before pase keep commants short ana toe port. ‘Adam Case, 104114, 1018.46 Sorry, Chvislos T. 1 Bought | may mention Hat because | saw you eommenting en tissue Redeploying toons nol a problem, securing ber areas, Besides tie nota easy a sounds. Kena ke an aia could spl sles between ‘Medtarranaan Sea and Russa, And Garmars had fed te indutres in conquered areas thats why occupied France improved Gorman war rodueton only sight Allegis was cil we take ine account How ‘much boosie Soviet Industy, made Meir amies mabile end helped in aching ale supororty. Regarding Lendsase avery intresting aries: ‘The role oflntlease in Sonata efor, 1941-1045, hp:ww anconin.comi¥o\abs!0.1080/1351049408430160%. VOOM “syed Anonymous {08/14 1252M biorsing websie. Hoe is my take an the Rustians never winning without alle Nap. thad dane with Gunde Rall (long wit ober aces othe war) who was ihe ta leasing ar ca n history ata epoca dinner nel in San Diogo ack in 1990 along wih other garman ealsirs who also pad $100.00 for the dinner to heer these evan sr sows speak, presented {general Ral win mo hypotetcaly queston that if Germany ane Russia went att wil no help Fem any omer county who wovlé wir. General Rall "ashes he seme queston totter German soldiers whe ‘ought on he ‘round tat wore presont ats dinner ane they eenced the same thing {General Ral These men fought on the Russian fort and knaw beet ‘an anyone on what happend there Als, the T-34 may or may nat be the best tank o Wl ail say thi natin ime of war your ta pu out the best ‘equipment posse in numbers ke the Russians di fan spending loo ‘much ime on leanology and end up producing lower numbers dealing wih 1 ood tank Hore the Russians cid beter job. Ago ona roason hat of futin hese debates is hat Sain mass mutdored moat of hie oflcer core turing the purge of te 1890s, With no ladareip Inthe army, a fore oF avy wl at pero very well whea hoses began bul need be fon ‘ob taning” which s why ve Russians sufored such huge lossosin he hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! astsono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war begionng of Operation Barearosa. But a6 Ral saié the Russlan people wre a harasred pocplo made so by fir hard ass lador Joe Sain, to (rates poll sora lor inhuman history. Reply Jacek Tete 115/16 1705.00 Now hang on ane cana. You can compare the T-34 and Ma Sherman In pies. But dot go ou and ll me hat te Sherman wasn supror lank, kwas.an nbeake seal bap, tn can. Te T-3 al least had the aa: prolecion again lowe caliber guns That sag, even the German long 75mm has problems ceasing it wih eft shot ator Bat admitedly the aor would actually rack. Howover tho 4 Shorran was an found disaster of tank wit gun at could able a Tiger prety much AT ALL en anne tal i optics, trea man siret vst s0 we're clear Im comparing the stands 75mm Shemran wih ve T3878 and te Tom Sherman wth he T3875, However te m Sherman was an aliound csaste of tank, with gun ‘at eoulén sable a Tiger peti much ATLL! The 34 could ‘The Tiger tank was wal prolaced, especialy against 75mm gun of the ‘Sherman and th 76mm gun offre 7-34. Both guns had similar persrmance S51 aon' gl your argument. fone could’ panetla chances te se ther woul to. fat F wa take ina account he poor quay of Soviet AT ‘ammunisonits the US fore hat woulshave ha the advantage G6 iposnae Myson 115/14, 620 AM You ar completely wong (Omar Bradley, Sin, US 1 75mm! Sharman) 88 mm 76-70 nm Ko#0149 (36, JPN) 94 mm USI 76mm ltr Shean) "33 Kos01L48 (Panter 98 mm T3465 108 rm Ki 35158 (Tigo) 110 mm [US Mo Gorm #20 mm 38-2 22mm 167 mm Side Lett gun: 62mm at 09m - 6mm at .000m wih 0 slope 5.34 gun: 88mm at S00 - Simm at 1.000m with 0 slope. At 30 dogroe ope iahould be 80 a S00 and 53 1.000. For the Sharman's M3 7m gun also wih siandaré ammo I's 7Omm at 500m 69mm at 1.000m wih 30 degre slope or 8mm at 50m - 6Omen at 1.0000 again wih 30 gree slope, Sols. snl ight superor pertormanco andthe Shera has beter ‘optics end twee ran ete is coal oper. For the Tamm Sherman and he 1-285 again smi sabstos: “2485 gun snould be 11 mm at 500m - 192mm a .000m wit slope ‘and Grim at 500m mm at 000 wih 20 degre lope ‘Sharma's Ms TEomm gun shouldbe: 116mm at 500m - 105mm a +.000m wn 9 slope and Samm a 00m = 80mm at .000m wh 30 degree slope, hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari! asis7sono (Christos military an inteligance corner: WW Myths -T-24 Best Tark of tha war ‘Stasies can change with specal ammo, when te Sov didnot have in large quant (fatal). A forte T4185 ve Shean Tommy fought aganaeachaterin Korea wih te Sharma waning se engagements: a Don M 11/1414, 9:38 AR ‘so, Shean ha is un siabized in vere, sit could shot and it on ‘8 move win 500 meters. hough T-34 could vaverse stghy mare ‘quiely than Sharman, ith a very sow fne adjustment so be t alight horzantlly fora sot was higher fr 734 fe} Christos T. 11/4114, 1050.80 ‘Tum be tol hat eapabily was mostly Heotatea, Te sbabilzer was practcaly never utes in he Se for frng on he move. WM anks had hattand shoot fey planned» htanyanng, a Spoenae yun 1814, 1047 AM ow porte wall how Sleve Zalygasltar and rwrting hisory by Weng about penetration ¢gures, the old warkma dais and postwar nisatans books Mt ponetation for 00 ators - 03.95 mm. But Zaloga makes ore than 110 mm. An T= 54 bocame underaies trouphost in any measur, insta in Korean war invohed fonty 280290 34/85 against more Han 1800 Shetmans, Chae, T25 and M26 Perehing. Hos wellknown lar. Reply Repies fe} Christos T. 118114, 1149.00 |on'think is comment ads anying to the convention. Ale sources Ive soon lve similar pevommance for te Shonman’s 76mm Mt gun compared i the T-2I85 ZieS-59 and higher fer he 75mm MO vs tho Sovel 73mm F-38 | don't tink he statements about Zaloga are juste. Al historans have ‘ei biasos btn this ease soem to me you just do tike Ns conclusions so youte stacking he person insted ofthe resestch bh the Korean War he Témm Shermans demolished the Sovet bul T3405 ‘inks. Zaloga explains the man reatons in 7-24-95 ve M26 Pershing Korea 1950 Maybe you shoul reed mat nstoad af nsultng peopl. Entor your comment Comment as: Google Accour ¥ NeworPost Home ser Post, ‘subse to: Post Comment (Alm) Copyright® ChrisosTrantalopoulos 2011. Simple emplae, Powered by Blooae hitpiohris-intel-coener blogspot com bri2012)07twwi-myths-+-3-bestank-o- wari!sono CCtvistos miliary and inteligence corner: WWI Myths -T-34 Best Tank of the war hitpichris-intel-coener blogspot com ri2012)07twwi-myths--3-est tank ans