Melendres # 1021 - 2015-04-22 Transcript REDACTED Melendres, Et Al., v. Arpaio, Et Al., Evidentiary Hearing Day 2 - 01

286
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
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Manuel de Jesus Ortega

Melendres, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
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vs.
Joseph M. Arpaio, et al.,
Defendants.
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CV 07-2513-PHX-GMS
Phoenix, Arizona
April 22, 2015
8:36 a.m.
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REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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BEFORE THE HONORABLE G. MURRAY SNOW
OF
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(Evidentiary Hearing Day 2, pages 286-511)
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Court Reporter:
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Gary Moll
401 W. Washington Street, SPC #38
Phoenix, Arizona 85003
(602) 322-7263
Proceedings taken by stenographic court reporter

Transcript prepared by computer-aided transcription
CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 287
A P P E A R A N C E S
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For the Plaintiffs:
Cecillia D. Wang, Esq.

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
FOUNDATION
Immigrants' Rights Project
39 Drumm Street
San Francisco, California 94111
(415) 343-0775
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Stanley Young, Esq.

Hyun S. Byun, Esq.
COVINGTON & BURLING, L.L.P.
333 Twin Dolphin Drive, Suite 700
Redwood Shores, California 94065
(650) 632-4700
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Daniel J. Pochoda, Esq.

Joshua D. Bendor, Esq.
AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES
FOUNDATION OF ARIZONA
3707 N. 7th St., Suite 235
(602) 650-1854
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OF
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Michele M. Iafrate, Esq.

IAFRATE & ASSOCIATES
649 N. 2nd Avenue
(602) 234-9775
For the Defendant Maricopa County:
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For the Defendants:
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Andre I. Segura, Esq.

AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
FOUNDATION
Immigrants' Rights Project
125 Broad Street, 17th Floor
New York, New York 10004
(212) 549-2676
Richard K. Walker, Esq.

WALKER & PESKIND, P.L.L.C.
16100 N. 71st Street
Suite 140
Scottsdale, Arizona 85254
(480) 483-6336
A P P E A R A N C E S
For the Defendant Arpaio:
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For Chief Deputy Sheridan: Lee D. Stein, Esq.

MITCHELL STEIN CAREY
One Renaissance Square
2 North Central Avenue
Suite 1900
(602) 358-0290
For Executive Chief Sands:
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Greg S. Como, Esq.

LEWIS BRISBOIS BISGAARD
& SMITH, L.L.P.
Phoenix Plaza Tower II
2929 N. Central Avenue
Suite 1700
Phoenix, Arizona 85012-2761
(602) 385-1040
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A. Melvin McDonald, Esq.

JONES, SKELTON & HOCHULI, P.L.C.
2901 N. Central Avenue, Suite 800
(602) 263-1700
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For Lieutenant Sousa:
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OF
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For Deputy Chief MacIntyre: Gary L. Birnbaum, Esq.

DICKINSON WRIGHT, P.L.L.C.
Attorneys at Law
1850 N. Central Avenue, Suite 1400
(602) 285-5000
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ALSO PRESENT:
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David S. Eisenberg, Esq.

DAVID EISENBERG, P.L.C.
2702 N. 3rd Street
Suite 4003
(602) 237-5076
Chief Robert Warshaw
Chief John Girvin
Chief Raul Martinez
I N D E X
Witness:
BRIAN SANDS
Cross-Examination by Mr. Como

Cross-Examination by Ms. Iafrate
Redirect Examination by Mr. Young
Recross-Examination by Mr. Como
Cross-Examination by Mr. Walker
Recross-Examination by Ms. Iafrate
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Page
BRIAN JAMES JAKOWINICZ
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MICHAEL TROWBRIDGE
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Direct Examination by Mr. Segura

Redirect Examination by Mr. Segura
Recross-Examination by Ms. Iafrate
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EMILY DOAN
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Direct Examination by Mr. Byun

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Direct Examination by Mr. Young
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336
348
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449
459
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JOSEPH M. ARPAIO
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Direct Examination by Mr. Segura

Cross-Examination by Mr. Walker
Redirect Examination by Mr. Segura
Examination by the Court
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473
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No.
Description
Dkt 838-1 - Declaration of John ("Jack")

MacIntyre - Ex. A to Partial Joinder dated
1/8/2015
295
29
Dkt 806 - Defendant Joseph M. Arpaio and

Maricopa County Sheriff's Office's Motion for
Determination of Counsel dated 12/1/2014
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Melendres v. Arpaio Defendants' Privilege Log
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Defendants Joseph M. Arpaio and Maricopa County 295

Sheriff's Office's Response to Plaintiffs'
Amended First Set of Interrogatories to
Defendants Regarding Contempt dated 3/13/2015
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E-mail from Larry Farnsworth/Deputy Chief

Trombi to All Sworn commanders re "FW:
Video/Audio Recordings Responses
CV-07-2513-PHX-GMS" dated 5/17/2014
(MELC004554 - MELC004562)
295
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Sealed portion of status conference transcript

from proceedings pages 35-104 dated 5/14/2014
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MCSO Memorandum to Steve Bailey from Dave

Munley re Weekly Status Report dated 6/13/2014
(MELC004993 - MELC004998)
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MCSO Memorandum to Brian Jakowinicz from Glen

Powe re Traffic Stop Videos dated 6/6/2014
(MELC104078 - MELC104079)
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MCSO Memorandum to Steve Bailey from Brian

Jakowinicz re Video/Audio dated 5/29/2014
(MELC004762 - MELC004766)
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Spreadsheet showing MCSO personnel issued

recording devices (MELCOl1650)
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E-mail to Jerry Sheridan from Joe Sousa re

"your request" dated 9/4/2008
(Melendres MCSO 095936)
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45
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Admitted
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E X H I B I T S
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Description
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E-mail to Brian Sands and Frank Munnell from

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Jerry Sheridan re "FH Letter" dated 12/1/2009
(Melendres MCSO 069074 - Melendres MCSO 069075)
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MCSO News Release, First Time: ICE Refuses to

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Accept Illegal Aliens from Sheriffs Deputies
During Human Smuggling Operation dated 9/21/2012
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MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Deputies Execute

Search Warrant at Construction Company dated
9/27/2012
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Dkt 842 - Defendants Joseph M. Arpaio and

Maricopa County Sheriffs Office's Memorandum
Pursuant to Court's December 4, 2014 Order
dated 1/8/2015
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Illegal Immigration Operation Stat/Worksheet

DR 10-060510 (MEL064120-121)
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Incident Report, IR 12-171046 dated 9/21/2012
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MCSO News Release, First Time: ICE Refuses to

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Accept Illegal Aliens from Sheriffs Deputies
During Human Smuggling Operation dated 9/21/2012
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Dkt 948 - Expedited Motion to Vacate Hearing

and Request for Entry of Judgment dated
3/17/2015
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Dkt 880 - Order to Show Cause dated 2/12/2015
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OF
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MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Office Stops 28

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More Illegal Aliens Involved in Human Smuggling
dated 12/30/2011
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Admitted
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No.
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E X H I B I T S
MCSO News Release, Sheriff Arpaio Continues

Fight Against Illegal Immigration, Six More
Illegal Aliens Arrested by Human Smuggling
Detectives dated 2/9/2012
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Description
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MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Deputies Discover

Two Young Children Being Smuggled into the
Country by Human Smugglers, Children Knew
No One in the Vehicle
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MCSO News Release, 2nd Time ICE Refuses to

Accept Illegal Alien From Sheriffs Deputies
Since September dated 10/9/2012
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MCSO News Release, Seven Booked on Human

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Smuggling Charges by HSU Detectives in the
Maricopa County Sheriffs Office dated 4/17/2013
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MCSO Press Releases for 2013
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MCSO Press Releases for 2011 from Internet

Archive
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MCSO Press Releases for 2012 from Internet

Archive
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MCSO Press Releases 2013, from Internet Archive 360
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MCSO Press Releases year 2011 from Internet

Archive
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Archive
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Archive
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Dkt 881, Order dated 2/12/2015
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E-mail chain from Sousa re "FW: Updated stats"

and attaching "Criminal Employments stats
03-28-12.doc; 03-28-12.doc" dated 3/28/2012
(MELC114928 - MELC11493l)
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MCSO Memorandum from Trowbridge to Jakowinicz

re Armendariz dated 2/13/2013
(MELC003738 - MELC003739)
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100
115
133
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Admitted
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No.
E X H I B I T S
360
360
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Spreadsheet of video-recorded traffic stops

(excerpted to only Sousa)
360
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MCSO Memorandum from Sousa re "Missing

Scorpion Micro Video Body Camera" dated
5/21/2014 (MELC098123)
360
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MCSO Memorandum from Madrid to Sousa re "Audio/ 360

Video Recordings Response, SWAT Division"
dated 6/5/2014 (MELC098092 - MELC098093
Video Clip 2 of Univision Interview published
501
March 1, 2012
202B
202C
Video Clip 3 of Univision Interview published

March 1, 2012
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Spreadsheet re MCSO Master Incident Report Log

from 2011, Brian Jakowinicz Depo Exhibit 181
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208

386
209

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Spreadsheet re Video Log of Discs from MCSO
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Spreadsheet re Incident Reports
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MCSO Memorandum from Sousa re "Video/Audio"

dated 5/19/2014 MELC098120 - MELC098121)
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Admitted
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Description
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P R O C E E D I N G S
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THE COURT:
Have the parties stipulated to exhibits that we can
Please be seated.
admit to make matters run more smoothly?
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, we've been talking --
THE COURT:
And by "parties," I hope that we're
remembering Mr. Walker and Mr. Como.
MR. YOUNG:
Yes.
Yes.
And I can report on our
progress, and I'll report on the stages of our discussion.
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Ms. Iafrate and plaintiffs agreed on a set of exhibits.
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Mr. Walker and Mr. Como joined the discussion, and I think that
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we have a list which all of us have agreed on.
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THE COURT:
All right.
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MR. YOUNG:
I believe that various of us are still
considering others, so we may have more stipulations.
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understand it, subject to correction by folks on the other side
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here, I believe we've all stipulated to the introduction of the
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following:
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44, 45, 47, and 49.
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THE COURT:
08:36:57
But as I
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Exhibits 1, 29, 34, 35, 36, 37, maybe 38, 42, 43,
MR. COMO:
08:37:28
Okay.
Do we have a stipulation as to 38?
I have 38 as already being in evidence,
Your Honor.
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THE COURT:
It apparently is already in evidence.
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MR. YOUNG:
That solves that problem, then.
08:37:47
All right.
So does any party disagree
with the exhibits as they've been read by Mr. Young?
MR. COMO:
MR. WALKER:
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
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THE COURT:
I do not, Your Honor.
And neither do I, Your Honor.

No, Your Honor.
All right.
So Exhibits 1 -- Nick, I'll
read these so you can get them down, and tell me if I need to
slow down -- 1, 29, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 43, 44, 45, 47, and 49
are admitted.
(Exhibits 1, 29, 34-37, 42-45, 47, and 49 admitted.)
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THE COURT:
All right.
If you can arrive at other
stipulations, let me know, and we'll handle them in like
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manner, and that way we can expedite matters.

I've also received from the parties their joint list,
so today --
deposition of Lieutenant Sousa, Ms. Iafrate?

MS. IAFRATE:
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Well, were you able to read the

08:39:10
MS. IAFRATE:
Not all of it, Your Honor, but I'm
prepared.
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I did the best I could, Your Honor.
deposition?
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THE COURT:
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08:38:57
Were you able to read last night, as I had hoped, the
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08:38:02
THE COURT:
You are prepared.
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MS. IAFRATE:
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THE COURT:
I am.
All right.
So we will have -- I assume
08:39:14
we'll finish with Chief Sands this morning, and then we will go
Sousa -- and I assume that we're just going to proceed as
you've indicated.
they were going to be your witnesses anyway, Ms. Iafrate, we'll
just go as we've gone with kind of the double-back procedure.
We haven't seemed to have a lot of problem with that.
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If you call them in your case in chief and
Is that acceptable to you?
MS. IAFRATE:
That is, with the -- I would just like
to put on the record also, Your Honor, that
Lieutenant Jakowinicz was not a witness that I was prepared,
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and I explained that to plaintiffs yesterday.
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However, I am prepared to proceed today.
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to me for this evidentiary hearing, but I am ready to proceed.
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witness that I defended in depositions, and he was not assigned
THE COURT:
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So we will go -- how long do we anticipate with
MS. WANG:
of our witnesses I can give you now.
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our direct --
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THE COURT:
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08:40:10
Your Honor, we have time estimates for all
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Thank you.
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Mr. Sousa?
All right.
08:39:51
He was not a
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08:39:39
MS. WANG:
THE COURT:
MS. WANG:
For Lieutenant Sousa for

08:40:26
Yes.
-- I would estimate one and a half hours.
All right.
For Lieutenant Jakowinicz, I'd estimate one
hour; for Sergeant Trowbridge, 45 minutes.
08:40:33
Emily Doan, Your Honor, is a witness for plaintiffs

who will go through some pretrial discovery matters.
proposed a stipulation to the other parties that would obviate
the need for her to testify at all, and they're considering
that now.
THE COURT:
MS. WANG:
If we don't reach a stipulation, that will
only take 15 minutes, I think.
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All right.
For Sheriff Arpaio, we estimate three hours on direct,

and for Chief Sheridan, one and a half hours.
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THE COURT:
Okay.
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Steve Bailey, and Steve Fax?
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defendants were going to call MacIntyre, Jones, Tiffany Shaw,
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MS. IAFRATE:
I discussed with plaintiffs' counsel
that depending on what plaintiffs do in their case in chief,
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some of those will likely be either eliminated or deferred.
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THE COURT:
All right.
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Sousa's cross?
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THE COURT:
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An hour.
08:41:57
Jakowinicz, or Jakowinicz, sorry.
I am so
sorry to Lieutenant Jakowinicz.
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Any estimates on
guess -- well, let me ask you, Ms. Iafrate:
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08:41:34
So it looks to me, by best
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08:41:04
Then in addition I take it the
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We have
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right.
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Jakowinicz.
Jakowinicz, with a V?
I will get his name

08:42:15
Lieutenant Jakowinicz, how long --
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Trowbridge?
15 minutes.
Doan, if there's no stipulation?

I don't know.
You know what her testimony's about,
apparently?
MS. IAFRATE:
10
THE COURT:
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MS. IAFRATE:
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THE COURT:
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MS. IAFRATE:
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THE COURT:
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MS. IAFRATE:
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THE COURT:
I do.
So is it going to be long?
No.
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An hour and a half.
Deputy Chief Sheridan?

An hour and a half.
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You certainly have the right.
08:42:56
Mr. Walker, do you anticipate -- you
haven't questioned yet.
Do you anticipate doing questioning?
Thank you, Your Honor.
If I have
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MR. WALKER:
questions for any of the witnesses, they will probably be very
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few, and I would anticipate they would add no more to the
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08:43:07
cross-examination than 10 to 15 minutes.
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08:42:36
Sheriff Arpaio?
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08:42:25
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Half hour.
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THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
As the total, or in each case?

In each case.
But there's some of these
witnesses I'm fairly sure I'll have no questions for.
08:43:25
THE COURT:
Mr. Como?
MR. COMO:
All right.
Thank you.
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Your Honor, obviously Brian Sands will be
testifying today on direct, and I anticipate that going
approximately 45 minutes.
THE COURT:
MR. COMO:
All right.
Lieutenant Sousa, I anticipate a half an
hour; Lieutenant Jakowinicz, a half an hour; Trowbridge, I
would estimate probably 15 minutes, at most; and Sheriff Arpaio

and Chief Sheridan, I would say half an hour or less for each
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of those witnesses.
Presently, I would estimate about 15 minutes, but I

don't know, obviously, what their testimony's going to be,
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so...
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THE COURT:
All right.
Let me say that it seems to me
that the remain -- we can then finish going through Friday.
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The one single wrinkle on the complication, and I don't know if
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he -- I assume that he copied you on the e-mail to the Court,
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which was Mr. McDonald's request because he's been asked to
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speak at the funeral involving a tragic situation.
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like given your order, Sheriff Arpaio will be up to testify
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08:44:38
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Looks to me
tomorrow, so that should not interfere with Mr. McDonald's need

to attend the funeral.
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08:44:06
OF
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08:43:54
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08:43:34
Mr. McDonald, I think that what we can do is make sure
you're here for Sheriff Arpaio's testimony, which will be the
08:45:00
most important aspect of that.
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MR. McDONALD:
Right.
He and Chief Sheridan are the
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two that are critical for me to be present at.
THE COURT:
Well, I can't guaranty, of course, that
you'll be here for Chief Sheridan.
But fortunately you work at
a large law firm and maybe you can have somebody cover.
have you -- it looks to me, and we're all going to be sensitive
to the fact, you definitely need to be here when Sheriff
Arpaio's testifying, and we'll have you here.
We'll
You may have to
have somebody cover for a little bit of Chief Sheridan, but
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we'll try and accommodate that funeral request.

MR. McDONALD:
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THE COURT:
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MR. COMO:
Honor.
THE COURT:
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MR. COMO:
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THE COURT:
MR. COMO:
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This is an evidentiary motion; I'll style

I apologize that we didn't --
Can you get right to it, Mr. Como?

Sure.
08:46:04
The issue, Your Honor, concerns
evidence relating to the ongoing application of the LEAR policy

and the detention of individuals to be turned over to ICE and
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All right.
it as a verbal motion in limine.
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08:45:42
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I have one issue I'd like to raise, Your
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Are there any other matters that would
be -- that should be taken up before we begin at 9 o'clock?
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Thank you, Judge.
OF
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08:45:28
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08:45:13
Border Patrol after this Court's preliminary injunction ruling.

THE COURT:
Right.
08:46:25
MR. COMO:
It's our position that evidence of that
should be excluded from this hearing based on relevance and 403
grounds.
that that LEAR policy was a violation of the preliminary
injunction.
brought the contempt claim, if they had one, at that time
rather than waiting a year and a half to do so.
The Court made it very clear in its May 2013 ruling
It's our position that the plaintiffs should have
THE COURT:
MR. COMO:
Motion's overruled.
I would like the opportunity to make a full
record on this, Your Honor.
11
THE COURT:
12
MR. COMO:
Well, then I'll have to object every time
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record --
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one of those exhibits is offered.
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THE COURT:
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MR. COMO:
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THE COURT:
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MR. SCHWAB:
I'm trying to make a
I'll give you a continuing objection.
OF
Yes, sir.
Your Honor, briefly, Doug Schwab on
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Arpaio.
ND
behalf of the County Attorney's Office representing Sheriff
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THE COURT:
MR. SCHWAB:
08:47:35
All right.
Yesterday after the discussion of
conflicts I had concerns of my own.
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08:47:16
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08:47:03
You have.
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08:46:49
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I addressed those with the
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county attorney and I was referred to independent ethics
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counsel, briefly last night and at more length this morning,
08:47:41
and she is reaching and analyzing that issue right now.

THE COURT:
MR. SCHWAB:
THE COURT:
Well, all right.
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Just wanted to let the Court know.
Are you comfortable staying at counsel
table?
As I said, I think it's pretty clear that -- I've
reread it again.
about the appropriate party that -- in terms of name only, and
the difference, there is no difference in the representation.
Ms. Iafrate's doing a beautiful job.
I think the Ninth Circuit is only talking
That doesn't mean that I
am going to dictate to Mr. Casey or to you whatever your
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ethical obligations are.
bar so I don't --
But we're proceeding.
I would think it best if I sat behind the
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MR. SCHWAB:
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THE COURT:
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Mr. Como, I'm going to give you a chance, if you can
That's fine.
do it briefly, to state whatever you want to state to make your
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full record.
MR. COMO:
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I would ask you to do it expeditiously.
I think the only point that I didn't get
08:48:43
to, Your Honor, is the basis for the argument is a res judicata
argument.
It's a principle of merger, which is that they had a
final judgment that there had been a violation of the
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MR. COMO:
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THE COURT:
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08:48:30
OF
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08:48:14
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08:47:55
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preliminary injunction, their claims at that time merged.
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should have brought the contempt claim at that time.
They
Their
08:49:07
failure to do so, I believe, bars them from doing it a year and
a half to two years later.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'd be happy to submit a brief on this issue.
simply wanted to do it because there are a lot of evidence,
exhibits that go to this issue, and I don't want to waive the
issue by allowing in all this testimony in evidence.
THE COURT:
Yeah, you haven't waived it.
I'm going to
give you a continuing objection.
highly relevant, and certainly, while I was aware at trial and
It does seem to me to be
I became aware during some of the testimony and I noted it in
11
my May 13th order that there were violations of the preliminary
12
injunction, I'm not sure that even I was aware of the vast
13
scope of those violations.
14
order, so I'm not sure where your res judicata argument would
15
come in.
16
full, but I am denying your motion.
TH
E
OF
18
on it, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
ND
19
IE
MR. WALKER:
08:50:15
For the record, Your Honor, I'd like to
note that the County joins Mr. Como's motion.
I understand the
judge's ruling.
24
25
You bet.
Mr. Walker.
FR
23
08:50:03
Thank you for allowing me to make a record
MR. COMO:
22
And I noted the violations in the
But again, I want you to be able to preserve it in
17
21
08:49:42
FO
10
20
08:49:22
hear it.
THE COURT:
But he joined the County, if you didn't
I'm sorry, he joined Chief Sands in the motion.
08:50:36
MR. McDONALD:
Your Honor, could I just say one thing
about Mr. Liddy's withdrawal?
THE COURT:
MR. McDONALD:
Sure.
GB
OW
.C
OM
You'll notice in the paperwork that was
filed that Sheriff Arpaio did not sign on consenting the
withdrawal.
recognized it, Mr. Liddy is probably one of the most
knowledgeable people in the case.
respect for Michele Iafrate, I think to put the responsibility
It's my belief, and I think Your Honor one time
And even though I have great
of Mr. Liddy's witnesses on her shoulders with less than 24
11
hours' time to prepare is burdensome.
12
If there is a conflict, the sheriff would waive the

conflict, and we would ask the -- we think it could prejudice
14
Ms. Iafrate's ability to find out information and to bring out
15
information that Mr. Liddy may know that would help the Court
16
in its findings, and I would simply ask that the Court not
17
grant Mr. Liddy's request to withdraw.
OF
TH
E
13
22
Apparently
I haven't had a chance to read it.
ND
you did file it, Mr. Liddy.
Let me tell you where I'm coming from.
And this is
08:51:52
not really about your request, Mr. Liddy, but I will read it,
and I read it -- but coming to work this morning I was a
witness to an automobile accident that looked like it might
FR
23
I've just been handed that.
08:51:31
IE
21
THE COURT:
18
20
08:51:09
FO
10
19
08:50:51
24
have resulted in serious injuries.
I had to get here 'cause I
25
told you I'd be here by 8:30 and I had to review some matters.
08:52:11
I told the police I'd come back and fill out a witness
statement.
here.
make 9 o'clock.
It's very close to
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'm going to do that right now.
I hopefully will be back, but I'm not probably going to
I'll try to be back 9:05, 9:10.
On the way from talking to the police I'm going to

review your motion, Mr. Liddy, but let me just ask you:
there anything about your conflict that you perceive prevents
you in your desire to withdraw, that you perceive prevents you
from cooperating with Ms. Iafrate in terms of information that
10
she might seek that would assist her in this representation or
11
access to documents, or information that might be within your
12
knowledge and possession?
13
is a conflict, then we're going to address that right now.

MR. LIDDY:
Your Honor, the vast majority of the
information I have about this case I have no problem sharing
16
with Ms. Iafrate or Mr. Walker.
17
knowledge which I have received pursuant to my confidential
18
relationship with both the sheriff and the County that I can
19
share with neither.
22
08:53:19
ND
However, I do have some
All right.
Let me ask you, would you feel
08:53:39
comfortable disclosing that to me at sidebar?

MR. LIDDY:
No, Your Honor.
I'm bound by the ethical
canons not to disclose that information.
FR
23
THE COURT:
IE
21
OF
15
20
08:52:50
And if your position is that there
TH
E
14
Is
FO
08:52:30
24
THE COURT:
Well --
25
MR. LIDDY:
I could disclose the nature of it without
08:53:55
disclosing --
THE COURT:
Yeah, that's all I meant was the nature of
GB
OW
.C
OM
it.
And I think as I recall the canons I could require you to
disclose it.
want to do that.
comfortable disclosing the nature of the information in open
court?
8
9
You can disclose it upon court order.
I don't
I just want to -- let me ask you:
MR. LIDDY:
Are you
No, Your Honor, but I am comfortable
disclosing it at sidebar with the Court and with -THE COURT:
Other counsel.
11
MR. LIDDY:
-- defense counsel, not with plaintiffs'
THE COURT:
Well, when you say defense counsel, we
TH
E
counsel.
13
14
also have Maricopa County and we have Chief Sands.
15
comfortable disclosing it in front of Maricopa County and
16
Chief Sands?
17
plaintiffs' counsel in that instance.
21
22
OF
Caution would -- I'd feel comfortable
disclosing the nature of the information to the Court.

THE COURT:
All right.
Well, why don't you do that,
08:54:54
unless any party objects, and I'm going to try to evaluate

whether or not there's a reason then, in light of the
information, that I should -- and just to be frank, Mr. Liddy,
FR
23
And I'm not really sure why we would exclude
MR. LIDDY:
ND
20
08:54:31
IE
19
Are you
18
08:54:22
FO
10
12
08:54:08
24
so you know what I'm doing, I would be -- I need to evaluate
25
that information in terms of evaluating your request to
08:55:13
withdraw, and then I may need to evaluate it to see if I think
the parties need to know what it is in order to be heard on
your request to withdraw in a knowledgeable way.
GB
OW
.C
OM
MR. LIDDY:
Understood, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
sidebar and I'll hear it.
MR. WALKER:
So why don't you approach
I'd just like to note for the record the
County does not object to the disclosure so long as it is
confined to a description of the categorical nature of the

information with which Mr. Liddy is concerned.
11
THE COURT:
12
mean the disclosure publicly?
13
MR. WALKER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MS. IAFRATE:
16
THE COURT:
When you say object to disclosure, you
TH
E
No, the disclosure to the Court.
All right.
OF
All right.
18
MS. IAFRATE:
apprised of the nature of this?
22
FR
23
ND
21
24
25
No, Your Honor.
All right.
Well, then, I think we need to

08:56:27
MR. LIDDY:
I'm comfortable with that, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
(Bench conference on the record.)

(Page 307, line 24, through page 311, line 15, sealed
by court order.)
08:56:14
Are you both -- are you both
have defense come.
IE
20
THE COURT:
Ms. Iafrate?
I would agree, Your Honor.
17
19
08:56:05
FO
10
08:55:31
GB
OW
.C
OM
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
FO
10
11
12
TH
E
13
14
15
09:01:04
(Bench conference concluded.)
17
THE COURT:
OF
16
All right.
I've spoken with Mr. Liddy,
Ms. Iafrate and Mr. Walker.
19
Mr. Liddy has been actively involved in the preparation of this
20
case in terms of factual and legal preparation and legal
21
positions.
ND
I believe I am correctly stating his position to
say that he has no problem fully cooperating with Ms. Iafrate

and Mr. Walker and giving them access to everything he knows
FR
23
09:01:13
IE
22
In the course of his duties,
18
24
regarding the facts and the legal preparation and the legal
25
memorandum in this case.
09:01:33
He, however, has also, in his capacity within Maricopa

County, had occasion to consult with the board of supervisors
and received direction from them and County executive
management.
received in that capacity with the sheriff, but that in no way
restricts him in his ability as it pertains -- or his
willingness as it pertains to the facts, the law, or anything
else with respect to this case.
He is restricted from discussing the advice he
Is that a correct statement of your position,

Mr. Liddy?
11
MR. LIDDY:
13
County, as "direction."
TH
E
information I received in confidence from my client, the
THE COURT:
Thank you.
15
MR. LIDDY:
Nor did I receive advice from the board of
THE COURT:
All right.
18
At sidebar Ms. Iafrate said she needs a day to absorb
17
from Mr. Liddy information pertaining to Mr. Sousa and who
20
else?
THE COURT:
Lieutenant Jakowinicz.
Okay.
I'm not going to give her a day,
but I am going to give you two hours, and we will resume at
FR
23
09:02:51
MS. IAFRATE:
IE
22
ND
19
21
09:02:27
OF
14
supervisors.
09:02:16
Except that I would not categorize the
12
16
09:02:00
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
11 o'clock with the deposition -- or with the testimony of
25
Chief Sands.
Then we'll move into Sousa and Jakowinicz --
09:03:04
Jakowinicz, as we've indicated.
court at 11 o'clock.
All right?
So we will resume
GB
OW
.C
OM
THE CLERK:
(Recess taken.)
THE CLERK:
All rise, please.
THE COURT:
Please be seated.
Mr. Liddy, will you please come forward.
All rise, please.
session.
podium for a minute.
Take the
Mr. Liddy, I do want to state as you're coming forward

that you have been in this case a long time, and I do, as I've
12
indicated before, while I haven't always accepted your
13
positions, you've been an ardent advocate for the sheriff's
14
positions.
15
TH
E
11
I am not going to immediately grant your motion.
want to explain why.
17
obligation to act as you see fit ethically, and I want to
18
outline why I'm not going to immediately grant your motion to
19
withdraw.
22
And want to acknowledge your right and
ND
You have in your motion designated as the reason that
necessitates your withdrawal 1.7(a)(2).
11:01:58
And I was able to look
at that during the little break we've had, and it is you're

obligated to withdraw if there is a significant risk that the
FR
23
11:01:40
IE
21
11:01:19
OF
16
20
11:01:03
FO
10
Court is now in
24
representation of one or more clients will be materially
25
limited by the lawyer's responsibilities to another client, a
11:02:23
former client, or a third person, or by a personal interest of
the lawyer, and I understand why that may pose a problem for
you.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I have stated several times that I think that the
position that the County has taken in various ways is an odd
one, and that's partly because we have an odd system of
government in Arizona that allows the sheriff to be
independently elected but the County in many ways financially
responsible for the sheriff's choices.
I do believe that the County has taken the position
11
and received an order from the court of appeals that MCSO is
12
not a jural entity, and that according to the court of appeals'
13
opinions, the proper party, being the County, should be
14
substituted in when that determination is made, and that's how
15
I determine what the Ninth Circuit did as substitute in the
16
County.
TH
E
I understand by the presence of Mr. Walker here that

the County wants to take, perhaps, or preserve the right to
19
take, certain substantive or legal opinions that would be
20
separate, or that would argue that there is a separation that
21
would be inconsistent with the -- perhaps inconsistent in some
IE
ND
18
11:03:30
ways with the jural entity argument and all that stuff.
FR
23
11:03:14
OF
17
22
11:02:56
FO
10
11:02:38
However, just before we went to break Mr. Walker said
24
the County was willing to waive any conflict with respect to
25
your ongoing representation, and the sheriff indicated that he
11:03:49
was not going to sign off on your withdrawal.
me, as I look at it, as you have outlined the conflict and the
reasons for your concern, I understand what you're telling me,
that the -- certain of your interactions with respect to the
Melendres case with the board of supervisors and County
management are things that you cannot now disclose to the
sheriff in light of the possibly differing opinions.
8
9
And it seems to
GB
OW
.C
OM
But you've also said there is no reason why you can't

advocate all of the facts and all of the law that pertains to
this case in favor of the sheriff.
And so I'm not sure that
11
the sheriff doesn't have a valid basis, Ms. Iafrate, to argue
12
that 1.7(a)(2) just does not apply in this circumstance,
13
because there's not a significant risk that you're -- that
14
you're going to, in your representation, in any way impair the
15
sheriff's interests.
TH
E
11:05:07
And Mr. Walker apparently doesn't believe you're going
OF
16
to impair the County's interests.
And you seem to me to be
18
quite attuned to your ethical obligations insofar as it
19
pertains to not disclosing confidential communications you've
20
had with the board of supervisors.
21
you to go forward on that basis, I think I'm going to have to
IE
ND
17
And so if the sheriff wants
11:05:24
allow them to make that argument.
FR
23
11:04:37
FO
10
22
11:04:15
And as far as I'm concerned, if all the parties want
24
to stipulate, you can cross-examine and do the examination of
25
Lieutenant Sousa if you're comfortable with it; if you're not,
11:05:38
I understand.
If you're not, though, we've just given you the
two hours, and you'll also have the lunch break, which we're
going to take at 1 o'clock, to further deal -- or inform
Ms. Iafrate, consistent with your indication that you would
fully cooperate in that respect.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Do you understand what I'm saying?
MR. LIDDY:
I do, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. WALKER:
Your Honor, just to clarify, if I said
that I was --
11
12
Mr. Walker.
THE COURT:
what you said.
Well, and let me say I may have misstated
I'm just stating what I recall --
MR. WALKER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. WALKER:
Okay.
TH
E
13
-- and so please clarify.

Yes.
What I meant to say is that I had
no objection to Mr. Liddy participating to the extent of
17
assisting both the County and Ms. Iafrate with his knowledge of
18
the history of the case, and the issues, and the facts in the
19
case.
20
a formal sense, and I would have to seek my client's permission
21
to do that.
IE
ND
I'm not authorized at this moment to waive a conflict in
THE COURT:
I understand.
11:06:37
And so I understand,
Mr. Liddy, while you may or may not -- I mean, it's up to you,
FR
23
11:06:12
OF
16
22
11:06:05
FO
10
11:05:56
24
first, whether or not you feel like you can cross-examine or do
25
the examination of Lieutenant Sousa.
But if you determine that
11:06:54
you can, and none of the parties object, then I'm going to
allow you to do it.
GB
OW
.C
OM
If you determine that wisdom suggests that you not do
that, I completely understand.
now to bring Ms. Iafrate up to speed; she's had the ability to
read the deposition.
We've given you the opportunity
I'm just telling you that.
But we're in the middle now of the testimony of
Chief Sands, so you'll have a little bit of time to think about
it.
Did you have anything you wanted to say?
11
MR. LIDDY:
FO
10
Yes, Your Honor.
one point that I never said that I would be -- that I was able
13
to advocate on behalf of the sheriff.
14
unencumbered in meeting my ethical obligation to assist --
TH
E
I said I would be
THE COURT:
Okay.
16
MR. LIDDY:
-- the sheriff in the transition, and I
can do that with factual knowledge that I have.

I also would like to place on the record that I am in
18
possession of confidential information which I may not share
20
with this Court that I received from --
IE
FR
23
ND
19
22
24
25
11:07:37
OF
15
21
11:07:20
I would like to clarify
12
17
11:07:08
THE COURT:
Yeah, that's fine.
MR. LIDDY:
-- client.
THE COURT:
That's fine.
MR. LIDDY:
I cannot get that information out of my
head, and I cannot advocate -- the substantial risk is a -- is
11:07:53
11:08:02
real.
have no discretion.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. LIDDY:
And I have legal advice from ethics
It is in fact there, and I'm obligated to withdraw.
counsel that so states.
THE COURT:
All right.
I respect that.
will -- I'm going to require you to fully cooperate with
Ms. Iafrate, as you've indicated you will.
Do you have any problem with that?

MR. LIDDY:
None whatsoever.
THE COURT:
All right.
my honor.
12
It's my obligation and
Then we will proceed on that
basis.
However, I'm still not going to grant your formal
14
motion to withdraw until the parties have had a chance to weigh
15
in on that.
TH
E
13
MR. LIDDY:
I appreciate that, Your Honor.
17
THE COURT:
Thank you very much, Mr. Liddy.
18
I believe, Ms. Iafrate, we're at the cross-examination

of Chief Sands.
20
ND
19
Your Honor, a brief housekeeping matter to
11:08:48
actually add an attorney to the -- and introduce an attorney to

Your Honor.
Hyun Byun, my colleague at Covington & Burling,
has joined us at counsel table.
FR
23
MR. YOUNG:
IE
22
11:08:36
OF
16
21
11:08:25
FO
10
11
11:08:16
Then we
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
THE COURT:
Welcome.
25
Ms. Iafrate.
11:09:00
MS. IAFRATE:
Your Honor, just a couple housekeeping
matters.
Before the break I was informed that the witnesses
are going to change order, so we're actually taking
Lieutenant Jakowinicz after Chief Sands.
is another one that I was not prepared for, so Mr. Liddy and I
used the time during the break to prepare for
Lieutenant Jakowinicz rather than Lieutenant Sousa.
THE COURT:
Is that correct?
GB
OW
.C
OM
Lieutenant Jakowinicz
Thank you for that clarification.
MS. WANG:
That is correct, Your Honor.
11
Just by way of brief explanation, our late start this

morning, combined with Mr. McDonald's announcement that he'll
13
be absent Friday, led us to be concerned that we want to finish
14
with Sheriff Arpaio's testimony by the end of the day tomorrow.
15
So we proposed that we will simply move Lieutenant Sousa till
16
after Sheriff Arpaio to make sure that happens.
OF
TH
E
12
THE COURT:
That's fine.
18
I do think it's very important that in light of
Let me just clarify.
Mr. McDonald's personal circumstances we accommodate him how we
20
can, but even he has not asked not to be here all day on
21
Friday.
22
IE
ND
19
11:10:01
He has acknowledged that there would be two -- an
hour, I think, before the lunch hour, an hour afterwards, maybe

two, that he would need to be gone.
FR
25
11:09:47
17
24
11:09:34
FO
10
23
11:09:16
I've indicated, I think, that for that brief time he
can have one of his associates doing the coverage.
But I do
11:10:16
Sands - Cross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
320
think it's important that while Sheriff Arpaio's on the stand,
Mr. McDonald be here.
All right.
MS. IAFRATE:
GB
OW
.C
OM
So just for that clarification.

We ready to proceed, then?
No, Your Honor.
information.
One more piece of
We would request that Mr. Como handle the
cross-examination first and then I follow, because this is
Mr. Como's client.

THE COURT:
I think that's fair.
10
MR. COMO:
11
THE COURT:
Sure.
12
That's fair.
Please, Mr. Como.
BRIAN SANDS,
recalled as a witness herein, having been previously duly
14
sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
TH
E
13
15
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COMO:
17
Q.
18
Sheriff's Office before you retired?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
11:10:54
OF
16
Chief Sands, you worked approximately 30 years at the
ND
Just short of 30 years, yes.

Was your retirement voluntary?
11:11:00
Yes.
IE
Q.
During your entire career at the Sheriff's Office were you
ever disciplined for any reason?
FR
23
11:10:43
FO
22
11:10:32
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
Since your retirement do you have -- did you go on to work
11:11:10
321
at another job?
A.
No, I did not.
Q.
Is your primary source of income your pension from the
County?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Who presently lives with you?
A.
My wife and my son.
Q.
Before your -- your work with the County Sheriff's Office,
what did you do?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
I served for eight years in the United States Army.
11
Q.
Were you honorably discharged?
12
A.
Yes, I was, yes.
13
Q.
I'd like to go back in time to when you were the chief of
14
enforcement in 2011.
15
time?
16
A.
17
primarily over patrol operations, the other one was primarily
18
over investigative operations, and the other one was in charge
19
of training per -- I'm sorry, not personnel, but records and ID
20
and civil and criminal warrants.
21
Q.
TH
E
One was
ND
OF
11:11:53
11:12:23
Who was the person in charge of the training bureau, the
bureau that included training?

A.
FR
23
What divisions reported to you at that
I had three bureau commanders that reported to me.
IE
22
11:11:35
FO
10
11:11:20
Well, it changed.
After we reorganized, the person
24
directly -- the director over training primarily during my time
25
was Director Rollie Seebert.
11:12:43
322
Q.
And who did Rollie Seebert report to?
A.
He reported at one time to Chief Trombi, and then later to
Chief Chagolla.
Q.
Detective Seibert, or what was his title?
A.
Director.
Q.
I'm sorry, Director Seibert.
Okay.
8
9
GB
OW
.C
OM
You remember in early 2012 who -- who -- did you say
Do you remember in early 2012 who Director Seebert was

reporting to?
A.
Would have been Chief Trombi.
11
Q.
How many sworn deputies worked under your ultimate command
12
back in 2011, 2012?
13
A.
At that time it would have been just under 800.
14
Q.
Is that all the sworn deputies at the Sheriff's Office?
15
A.
Primarily, yes.
16
Q.
Where was your office physically located?
17
A.
My office was at the 19th floor of the Wells Fargo
18
building.
19
Q.
20
actually work in your office?
21
A.
TH
E
OF
11:13:37
ND
Did the sworn deputies that you just mentioned, did they
11:13:55
IE
Other than the command staff, no, they worked out in
various off-site locations.

Q.
FR
23
11:13:14
FO
10
22
11:13:06
So, for example, the deputies in the Human Smuggling Unit,
24
they wouldn't be located in the same physical building as you?
25
A.
No, sir.
They were located primarily out on Durango.
11:14:11
Q.
Was your job primarily an office job?
A.
For the most part, yes.
Q.
How would you spend your -- most of your days?
A.
Mainly in meetings.
Q.
Okay.
and that type of thing?
A.
No.
Q.
I'd like to switch gears now and talk a little bit about
the training department.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Were you going out on patrol and doing interdiction
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
Is that the right word for it, "department," or is there
13
some other word I should use?
14
A.
Training division.
15
Q.
Division.
TH
E
Okay.
11:14:45
OF
And how many employees were in the training division

back in 2011-2012?
18
A.
As I remember, it varied between 10 and 15.
19
Q.
What was the function of the training division?
20
A.
21
for all members, including detention, and the academy training
ND
17
11:15:02
IE
They were responsible for training throughout the office
also.
Q.
FR
23
11:14:38
FO
was under you, correct?
22
11:14:25
That was one of the departments that
10
16
323
When you say responsible for training, what types of
24
training are we talking about?
25
A.
Can you give us an overview?
It would vary from basic training involving the academy
11:15:21
324
through any issues that might affect the day-to-day operations
of the Sheriff's Office, as in legislative enactments by the
state law, information that needed to go out about policy, that
type of thing.
Q.
thing?
A.
Yes, that was also included.
Q.
Was the training of the posse included in that as well?
A.
The approval and the management of the training was -- for
GB
OW
.C
OM
What about field training, firearms training, that type of
the posse did go through the training, but primarily the
11
enforcement support division did the actual training.
12
Q.
13
through the training division?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
How many different types of training programs would the
16
training division put on in a year, just an approximate number?
17
A.
18
over a hundred.
19
Q.
20
that were put together and final -- and made final by the
21
training division?
TH
E
OF
11:16:22
Oh, it was probably, including the basic programs, well
ND
Would you personally review all of those training materials
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Is there any way that you could have physically done that
FR
23
E learning programs, would those go
11:16:44
IE
22
How many -- oh.
11:16:07
FO
10
11:15:48
24
and met all of your other duties?
25
A.
No, there would be no way I could do that.
11:16:55
325
Q.
Describe for me -- we're going to talk about the specific
training materials that were being put together for the Court's
order in a moment, but I'd like you to describe the more
general process of how -- let's say there was a new law passed,
new criminal law passed.
how that information would be put out to the deputies and the
training materials put together for those deputies?
A.
worked in the administrative division.
GB
OW
.C
OM
What would be the typical process of
Typically, that would go through the policy people that
And if updated training
was needed, they oftentimes would contact the staff that worked
11
for, at that time, Seebert to develop new training.
12
Q.
13
statute, who would typically put together the initial training
14
materials, the substantive information?
15
A.
16
and the Best Management Practice to develop the training
17
itself, and then put out to the staff.
18
Q.
19
programs that are put together by the training staff?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
Who would -- let's say again, using this generic new
11:18:03
OF
Normally, the training staff would try to develop the needs
ND
Would you typically see the final product of these training
Not typically, no.

I assume that you had your own ongoing training
IE
Okay.
11:18:27
requirements?
A.
Yes, for my POST certification I did.
24
Q.
Is that typically one that you would see the final
25
product of the training materials?
FR
23
11:17:41
FO
10
22
11:17:16
11:18:39
326
A.
Typically, yes.
Q.
There was some E learning that was mandatory, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
program, if any, development of a typical training program?
A.
for instance, the training staff might develop some type of
need for firearms training that involves more tasking that can
be accomplished by the staff that's at the range, and so they
GB
OW
.C
OM
So what would be your role in a typical training
Normally, I didn't have much involvement in that.
However,
would reach out to other certified firearms instructors.
11
oftentimes, because it is a bureaucracy, people aren't willing
12
to give up their staff.
13
requirement outside of that training unit's possession, they
14
would come to me and I would try to get them -- get them the
15
resources they needed.
16
Q.
That sounds like a specific example that you're recalling.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
So is it fair to say that you would get involved in these
19
putting together training materials or training programs only
20
when a need arose for you to assist in getting the resources
21
put together or some similar problem solved?
11:19:26
11:19:50
OF
TH
E
And so when it became a needs
ND
IE
A.
Typically, yes.
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
And
FO
10
22
11:18:55
All right.
11:20:03
Let's turn now to the training program
24
that was -- was being put together in light of the Court's
25
preliminary injunction order, and I'd like --
11:20:23
MR. COMO:
Does the witness have Exhibit 189?
BY MR. COMO:
Q.
evidence.
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Let's go to the last page -- or, I'm sorry, the
next-to-the-last page of Exhibit 189, please.
GB
OW
.C
OM
If you could turn, please, to Exhibit 189, which is in
Do you recognize this e-mail chain?
Let's start with the e-mail at the bottom there from

Lieutenant Sousa to Brett Palmer dated January 11, 2012.
10
Are you with me?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
Do you have an independent memory of this e-mail?
2012?
15
A.
No, I don't.
16
Q.
There's a number of people that are copied on the e-mail,
17
including yourself, Mr. Casey, and then Rollie Seebert.
18
you indicated previously that he was the director of training
19
at that time?
20
A.
21
Q.
11:21:26
And
ND
OF
14
Correct.
11:21:40
IE
Do those people that are on the cc list, do those all make
sense in terms of who would be typically involved in putting

together training materials on something of this nature?
FR
23
11:21:16
I'm sorry, of receiving this e-mail back in January of
TH
E
13
22
11:20:50
FO
327
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And again, I'm not talking necessarily about any generic
11:21:58
328
training, but something like this where we're dealing with a
court order.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
directing Sergeant Palmer to put together some training
scenarios and that he should be discussing them with Tim Casey.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Mr. -- Lieutenant Sousa's e-mail talks about -- is
Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was that consistent with your understanding of how this
December order was going to be put out in terms of training?
11
In other words, that somebody in the HSU would work

with Mr. Casey to develop the materials?
13
A.
The process typifies a training development.
14
Q.
Lieutenant Sousa's e-mail, at the last line of it, talks
15
about E learning.
16
That's an office-wide program, right?
17
A.
It was at the time, yes.
18
Q.
All right.
19
that after your meeting with Sheriff Arpaio, he said that he
20
wanted to only have HSU deputies trained.
21
understanding after the meeting, right?
11:22:54
OF
And there's already been testimony about it.
That was your
11:23:11
IE
ND
Now, on examination yesterday you testified
A.
Correct.
Q.
This seems different, in that they're talking about
FR
23
TH
E
12
22
11:22:30
FO
10
11:22:14
24
E learning and office-wide program.
Do you have any idea of
25
why -- can you explain that, the difference?
11:23:28
329
A.
Well, it's obvious -- obvious to me that the communication
is going out to put this out to -- to all the deputies.
Q.
had spoken with Lieutenant Sousa about getting together with
Mr. Casey to put together the training, right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Is this consistent -- is this e-mail consistent with --
with your memory of how that was going to happen, essentially
consistent with it?
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Now, you testified yesterday that your -- that you
A.
Well, again, I don't have any independent recollection of
11
the -- the exact verbiage in here.
12
that conversation, yeah.
13
Q.
14
It would be consistent with
TH
E
Okay.
Now, when you gave that testimony originally, I think

you were actually interviewed by a monitor back in December
16
2014 about these events, and your -- the testimony that you
17
gave yesterday about the conversations you had with the sheriff
18
and Lieutenant Sousa is essentially the same testimony that you
19
gave back to the monitor in December 2014, right?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
Correct.
11:24:43
IE
Did you have the benefit of being able to refresh your
memory with these e-mails when you were interviewed by the

monitor?
FR
23
11:24:25
OF
15
22
11:24:08
FO
10
11:23:53
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
Let's go now to the next e-mail.
We have to flip all the
11:24:50
way to the first page.
scenarios, and he directs them to Lieutenant Sousa, and then
Mr. Casey and Michael Trowbridge are copied on that.
And this is Sergeant Palmer's
Do you see that?
GB
OW
.C
OM
330
Goes on to the second page to see
the copies.
A.
Oh, yes, I see.
Q.
You were not copied on that e-mail, correct?
A.
No.
Q.
Is that typical, that you would not receive the actual
training materials at this stage in the process?
11
sort of the draft training materials that are being put
12
together?
13
A.
14
form.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
Again, this -- Sergeant Palmer's e-mail, we're not going to
18
go through the scenarios, but he does say in the first
19
paragraph that he's had the many conversations that he's had,
20
as well as taking into account the information from -- provided
21
to both of us from Tim Casey.
TH
E
OF
11:25:51
ND
24
25
So this isn't unusual in that sense, correct?
I'm sorry.
11:26:09
Do you see that?
It's on the top paragraph of the second
page of the e-mail before we start the actual discussion.
FR
23
11:25:32
I rarely saw any training as it developed in its written
IE
22
The draft --
FO
10
11:25:22
A.
Do you see what I'm referring to?

I'm sorry.
The question --
11:26:38
331
Q.
Do you see the language about him having conversations with
Lieutenant Sousa, as well as both of them having conversations
with Tim Casey about the order?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Is that consistent with what you would expect
Sergeant Palmer to be doing at this stage in the process of
preparing these materials?
A.
I would believe that, yes.
Q.
Why would you expect him to be getting advice or review
GB
OW
.C
OM
from an attorney on something of this nature?
11
A.
12
need for a clear understanding for the staff about the order.
13
Q.
14
legal ruling?
15
A.
Oh, correctly, yes.
16
Q.
The next thing on this -- and we're now on the first page
17
of Exhibit 189.
18
Lieutenant Sousa to Mr. Casey dated January 24, 2012.
Largely because of the impact on the office and the -- the
OF
11:27:26
The next e-mail in this chain is one from
21
Q.
Yes.
11:27:45
And you are copied on that one, correct?
IE
A.
ND
Do you see that one?
20
A.
Yes.
Q.
And the other individuals that were copied on
FR
23
TH
E
Is it also because the order has legal issues and is a
19
22
11:27:06
FO
10
11:26:50
24
Lieutenant Sousa's initial e-mail to -- to Sergeant Palmer are
25
on there as well, correct?
11:27:57
A.
Correct.
Q.
In addition, Lieutenant Jakowinicz is on there.
GB
OW
.C
OM
332
Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do you know why Lieutenant Jakowinicz would have been on
there at that time?
A.
transferred.
Q.
And if you don't know, that's fine.
I can only speculate that was at the time that he was being
All right.
Well, he'll have an opportunity to tell us.
In this e-mail is it accurate to say that
Lieutenant Sousa's asking Mr. Casey to review the scenarios and
12
get back to him?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Is that what, again, what you would expect to have happen
15
with materials like this before they're put out to the
16
deputies?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Is this e-mail asking for any action on your part at this
19
time?
20
A.
21
Q.
11:28:35
ND
OF
TH
E
11
No.
11:28:44
IE
Do you recall ever receiving a response, being copied on
any response to Lieutenant Sousa's e-mail to Mr. Casey of

January 24, 2012?
FR
23
11:28:18
FO
10
22
11:28:04
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Let's turn now to Exhibit 156.
This has also been admitted
11:29:06
into evidence.
Do you have that in front of you, sir?
GB
OW
.C
OM
333
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Now, this is an e-mail from Lieutenant Sousa to
Sergeant Palmer on March 27, 2012.
You are not copied on this e-mail, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
According to this e-mail, Lieutenant Sousa was still
waiting to hear back from Mr. Casey on the training scenarios,

right?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And it was only after that that they anticipated having you
13
and sergeant -- sorry, Lieutenant Trombi review the training
14
scenarios after they received Mr. Casey's feedback, correct?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
Again, did you ever hear back from Mr. Casey or any other
17
attorney about these training scenarios at this time frame?
18
A.
I don't recall ever hearing back from him, no.
19
Q.
Was Lieutenant Sousa generally good about following up on
20
things?
21
A.
TH
E
ND
OF
11:30:22
11:30:39
He was excellent.
IE
Q.
How would you describe his overall work performance and
work ethic?
FR
23
11:30:04
FO
10
22
11:29:44
24
A.
He was very hard working, one of the best division
25
commanders that worked for -- for me and with me.
He was a
11:30:50
334
self-starter, and had experience in things like SWAT, so his
leadership skills were -- were very high.
Q.
had an assignment, that -- that he needed a lot of prompting to
do it?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you find that you could rely on him to follow through
and finish assignments that were given to him?
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Did you find that when you gave him an assignment, or he
Yes.
He was a self-starter and basically drove his own
vehicle when it came to leadership.
11
Q.
12
Exhibit 189, is it obvious to you that the task of preparing
13
the training materials and getting them ready was -- was
14
assigned to Lieutenant Sousa?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
And did you believe that Lieutenant Sousa would carry out
17
that task without any need for follow-up from you?
18
A.
I would believe that, yes, sir.
19
Q.
Did anyone ever come to you and say:
20
problem.
21
training scenarios?
TH
E
From the e-mails that we've been looking at, including
Hey, we're having a
ND
OF
11:31:46
11:32:03
IE
Mr. Casey's not getting back to us about these
A.
No, I recall nothing like that.
Q.
If anyone had come to you and presented that as a problem
FR
23
11:31:30
FO
10
22
11:31:16
24
or an issue, what would you have done, sir?
25
A.
I would have brought the parties together to get the job
11:32:15
335
done.
Q.
been brought to your attention in the past?
A.
Oh, yes.
Q.
Did you ever -- was it ever your intent to not comply with
the Court's preliminary injunction order?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you ever direct anyone not to put on those training
materials?
GB
OW
.C
OM
Had you done that with respect to other issues that had
Yes.
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
Do you believe that it's important to comply with a court
12
order such as that?
13
A.
Oh, very important.
14
Q.
Do you know why the E learning program that was being put
15
together was not finished?
16
A.
No, I do not.
17
Q.
Back in that time frame of 2012, did anyone bring to your
18
attention the fact that it was not finished?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
your assumption that the materials had been prepared?
TH
E
OF
ND
No.
After tasking Lieutenant Sousa with that assignment, was it
A.
I would believe that he would finish the task, yes.
Q.
Do you feel that you took reasonable steps to communicate
FR
23
11:32:59
11:33:11
IE
22
11:32:40
FO
10
11:32:26
24
the Court's order to the appropriate people within the
25
Sheriff's Office?
11:33:37
A.
I do.
2
3
MR. COMO:
Nothing further at this time.
Chief.
THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
Mr. Walker.
Thank you,
GB
OW
.C
OM
No questions, Your Honor.

Ms. Iafrate.
7
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
Chief Sands, you were deposed on April 1, 2015, in this
case, correct?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
And in fact, on direct examination plaintiffs' counsel
13
showed you some of your transcript, correct?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
I want to go back to that and ask you a couple questions
16
regarding the portion that they read to you.
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
First of all, let me show you the front page.
19
to be the page of your deposition, correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
25
That appears
TH
E
ND
OF
11:34:29
Okay?
Yes.
11:34:54
IE
And then plaintiffs read to you starting at page 76,
starting at line 4 and said:
"Okay.
Did you ever discuss that
backup plan with the sheriff?"
FR
24
11:34:20
FO
10
23
11:33:48
CROSS-EXAMINATION
22
336
And your answer was:
prior to the injunction."
"No.
I discussed that with him

11:35:15
337
Correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
So this wasn't a conversation about any sort of plan B
based on the injunction, correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Then it goes on to say:
that I had a problem with the -- with the premise of detaining
somebody that long to turn them over to the Border Patrol,
unless we were in close proximity of the Border Patrol.
GB
OW
.C
OM
"Okay."
Then you expressed:
"--
But to
drive somebody halfway across the state, I had a problem with
11
the detention part."
FO
10
12
So let me ask you this, Chief Sands:
14
A.
15
at the time, and that could mean going to a patrol unit itself.
16
At that time I -- I think that Casa Grande was the closest
17
location they normally were at, or down in the area south of
18
Gila Bend.
19
Q.
20
would be in minutes or hours from this location.
21
an understanding --
TH
E
Border Patrol from Phoenix?
Well, depending on -- excuse me -- where they were located
OF
11:36:08
Do you have
11:36:35
IE
ND
So your estimated time to get to Casa Grande or Gila Bend
A.
More like -- more like closer to hours than minutes.
Q.
So your problem was if it was a lengthy period of time to
FR
23
11:35:48
How far away was
13
22
11:35:24
24
transport someone, that was your problem, correct?
25
A.
Correct.
11:36:50
338
Q.
You now know that any detention longer than necessary
violates the preliminary injunction, whether it be short or
long, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
You didn't know that back when you received the preliminary
injunction, did you?
A.
again, please.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
No, you're con -- you're confusing me.
Okay.
Ask me the question
You received the preliminary injunction from Tim
Casey, correct?
11
A.
Correct.
12
Q.
And in fact, you had a conversation with him on the phone
13
shortly thereafter it was generated, correct?
14
A.
I had a conversation with him, yes.
15
Q.
Was it a telephone conversation?
16
A.
I can't remember exactly.
17
Q.
No one else was present for that --
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
-- conversation, correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
I think it was.
ND
OF
11:37:34
Correct.
11:37:43
IE
And so based on your conversation with Tim Casey, you
didn't understand that any detention, whether short or long,

longer than necessary, violated the preliminary injunction at
FR
23
11:37:25
FO
10
22
11:37:06
24
that time, did you?
25
A.
Right.
11:37:55
339
Q.
But now that you're here today, you understand that any
detention longer than necessary, or longer than the usual
traffic stop, violated the preliminary injunction, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Was your conversation with Tim Casey the same day that the
preliminary injunction was generated?
A.
I believe it was, but I'm not sure.
Q.
On that day did you brief anyone regarding your
conversation with Tim Casey?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
I can't recall doing that.
11
Q.
There was some discussion on direct examination regarding a
12
conversation that you had with Jack MacIntyre at the copier.

Do you recall that?
TH
E
13
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
So you had received the preliminary injunction from Tim
16
Casey, correct?
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
And tell me what was your interaction with Chief MacIntyre.
19
A.
My interaction was a discussion about me receiving the
20
preliminary injunction.
21
Q.
ND
11:39:20
IE
Did he talk to you about the substance?
A.
I don't recall that, no.
Q.
What was his role as far as the preliminary injunction is
FR
23
11:39:05
OF
14
22
11:38:35
FO
10
11:38:10
24
concerned?
25
A.
I'm really not quite sure.
11:39:30
340
Q.
did you receive it?
A.
it.
Q.
How about the content of the preliminary injunction?
A.
No, I don't believe we had a conversation about it.
Q.
Was that his job, to brief you on the substance of the
preliminary injunction?
A.
It might have been.
10
Q.
Why do you say "it might have been"?
11
A.
Outside of that, that particular item, I'm not sure if he
12
was told to come and brief me on it, or there were other issues
13
that he might come to me about and --
14
Q.
15
of the preliminary injunction, did he?
16
A.
No.
17
Q.
You don't know if Tim Casey briefed Chief Deputy Sheridan
18
on the preliminary injunction, do you?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
you go third, you kind of have to pick up the pieces as you go,
24
25
I remember him asking me if the deputies knew about
11:39:48
TH
E
FO
11:40:01
As you sit here today, he never briefed you on the content
OF
11:40:23
ND
I wasn't present, so I don't know that, no.

I want to back up and I'm kind of jumping all around.
When
11:40:56
so I apologize.
FR
23
Yes.
IE
22
Did you two discuss the preliminary injunction, other than
GB
OW
.C
OM
Let's go back to even before the preliminary
injunction when the Melendres case was filed.

Do you recall that?
11:41:11
A.
Yes.
Q.
What was your title at that time?
A.
I was -- I was a chief at that time, yes.
Q.
And was human smuggling one of your responsibilities --
A.
Yes.
Q.
-- Human Smuggling Unit?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Prior to the trial did you have conversations with Tim
Casey regarding the case?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Yes, I'm sure I did.
11
Q.
Were you deposed regarding the Melendres case?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Were you the MCSO representative for the Melendres case?
14
A.
I don't recall being titled that position, but I was
15
coordinating the deputies to be deposed in the deposition
16
phase.
17
Q.
18
nearby during the trial?
19
A.
20
witness.
21
Q.
11:41:41
TH
E
OF
11:42:08
How about during the trial, did you sit at counsel table or
ND
I don't believe I did.
I believe I just testified as a
So did Tim Casey
IE
Was your testimony prepared with counsel?
11:42:23
prep you in prior depositions and also at trial?

A.
Yes.
24
Q.
In the pretrial phase from you -- pretrial phase where you
25
said that you coordinated deputies, were you doing that to
FR
23
I can't remember distinctly, but --
11:41:28
FO
10
22
341
11:42:45
342
assist Tim Casey?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Prior to the trial were you ever requested to gather
documents as they relate to the Melendres matter?
A.
I don't believe so.
Q.
Were you ever requested to gather videos as it relates to
the trial?
A.
No, I don't believe so.
Q.
Are you aware that Chief Deputy Sheridan did not attend the
GB
OW
.C
OM
trial?
11
A.
I don't believe he did.
12
Q.
Are you aware that Chief Trombi did not attend the trial?
13
A.
I don't believe he did.
14
Q.
There was some discussion in your direct examination
15
regarding a drop-house scenario.
TH
E
Do you recall that?

A.
Yes.
18
Q.
And you said that you had a conversation with Sheriff
19
Arpaio regarding the drop-house scenario.
20
Do you recall that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was anyone else present for that conversation?
A.
No.
24
Q.
Do you know whether or not Sheriff Arpaio discussed that
25
scenario with counsel?
FR
23
11:44:10
IE
22
ND
17
21
11:43:59
OF
16
11:43:21
FO
10
11:42:58
11:44:20
A.
No.
Q.
I want to go back to the training scenarios.
going to go through them piece by piece, but can you put up
189?
And I'm not
GB
OW
.C
OM
343
Do you prefer a paper copy or on the screen?
A.
Either one.
Q.
Okay.
Let's just stop -- stop right there.
Chief Sands, as you sit here today, do you now recall
receiving these, or you don't have a recollection of receiving

them?
11
A.
No, I don't -- I really don't remember seeing them.
12
Q.
What happens sometimes when you look at the monitor is you
13
have to go back to the mic so that we can pick it up, okay?
14
A.
TH
E
Okay.
15
THE COURT:
If you need to, Chief, you can pull that
whole mic over by the monitor if it's easiest to look at the
17
monitor and speak at the same time.
OF
16
THE WITNESS:
11:45:35
18
BY MS. IAFRATE:
20
Q.
Sorry about that.
11:45:48
So even after reviewing them today, you don't recall
IE
21
ND
19
receiving these back in January 2012?

A.
No.
24
Q.
It wasn't a practice of yours to review training materials,
25
was it?
FR
23
11:45:20
FO
10
22
11:44:49
11:46:00
344
A.
No.
Q.
Did you ever at any time create training materials as a
result of the preliminary injunction?
A.
No.
Q.
There was some discussion both on direct and also with your
counsel regarding a conversation that you had with Tim Casey
regarding the preliminary injunction and how to disseminate
that information to the deputies.
Do you recall that?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
To your knowledge, did Mr. Casey ever disseminate that
12
information to the deputies?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
When you were a chief that was in the line of command
15
for what's the chain of command for HSU, when you first started
16
there, who was the first chief deputy in charge?
17
A.
Hendershott, Dave Hendershott.
18
Q.
And ultimately when he left, that's when Chief Sheridan
19
took over as interim?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
OF
ND
Yes.
11:47:27
And then he ultimately was selected to handle that
position, correct?
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Do you know what, if anything, happened as a result of
25
these training scenarios?
FR
23
11:47:08
IE
22
11:46:41
FO
10
11:46:17
11:47:49
A.
No.
Q.
Did anyone tell you not to implement training scenarios?
A.
No.
Q.
There's been some discussion by a few people that have
testified regarding the fact that you and Chief Trombi both
supervised HSU.
GB
OW
.C
OM
345
Do you disagree or agree with that statement?
A.
say yes.
I want to say both, but yeah, I would -- I'd be inclined to
Q.
11
Lieutenant Sousa, would talk directly to you, correct?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And there were times where you directly gave chief -- or,
14
excuse me, Lieutenant Sousa, I just promoted him -- gave
15
Lieutenant Sousa direct orders, correct?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
For example, there was a time where you asked
18
Lieutenant Sousa to do some research regarding whether there
19
could be traffic blocks regarding immigration, correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
11:48:34
TH
E
ND
OF
Yes.
11:48:51
I don't recall that.
11:49:13
IE
There was other times where you asked Lieutenant Sousa to
research areas and get back to you directly, correct?

A.
Correct.
24
Q.
Chief Sands, you wrote a book after you left MCSO, correct?
25
A.
Yes.
FR
23
There were times where people from HSU, for example,
FO
10
22
11:48:11
11:49:55
346
Q.
Did you believe everything in that book to be true?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did you say that Sheriff Arpaio wasn't intimately familiar
with the workings of the office, all aspects of the office?
A.
I did.
Q.
Did you also say that you believed that Sheriff Arpaio was
disconnected?
A.
I did, yes.
Q.
When you worked at the Sheriff's Office, did you directly
GB
OW
.C
OM
report to Sheriff Arpaio?
11
A.
Oftentimes I did, yes.
12
Q.
Did you see him almost daily?
13
A.
Almost daily, yeah, yes.
14
Q.
When you were at the Sheriff's Office working -- and let's
15
just stick around 2011-2012 -- was he at work every day?
16
A.
17
Q.
And were you at work every day?
18
A.
19
Q.
In 2011 and 2012, did you take a substantial amount of time
20
off?
21
A.
TH
E
OF
ND
11:51:11
Towards the end of 2012 I -- I had developed a heart
problem, and I wasn't as involved in some of the duties that I

was prior to that.
FR
23
11:50:52
IE
22
11:50:32
FO
10
11:50:17
24
Q.
When Chief Sheridan took over -- when Chief Sheridan took
25
over as chief deputy, he took over the responsibilities that
11:52:00
347
were left behind by Chief Deputy Hendershott, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Isn't it true that during that transition period there were
a lot of ongoing disagreements with the County?
A.
I believe that to be true, yes.
Q.
There were lawsuits that were filed by the County
individuals, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
There were investigations that were occurring that involved
GB
OW
.C
OM
County members, correct?
11
A.
I believe so, yes.
12
Q.
And Chief Sheridan was tasked with untangling that knot,
13
correct?
14
A.
Well, I believe you're correct, yes.
15
Q.
To your knowledge, did HSU individuals directly report to
16
Chief Deputy Sheridan?
17
A.
I don't know.
18
Q.
When you received the preliminary injunction and talked to
19
Tim Casey, did you yourself talk to any deputies that it would
20
impact?
21
A.
TH
E
OF
ND
Q.
11:53:41
I don't believe I did, no.

Did you develop a plan for those deputies to be instructed
on what the preliminary injunction entailed?
FR
23
11:52:55
IE
22
11:52:39
FO
10
11:52:20
24
A.
As far as developing a training plan or developing a
25
process?
11:54:03
Sands - Redirect, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
348
Q.
Developing a process.
A.
I don't recall that exactly, but I've seen in subsequent
e-mails and communications that was being done.
Q.
By Lieutenant Sousa, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And Sergeant Palmer, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
But you yourself weren't involved in that process, correct?
A.
Correct.
MS. IAFRATE:
11
THE COURT:
I have nothing further, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. YOUNG:
14
Q.
15
deposition, and I'd like to have that pulled up.
16
and 77 from your deposition on April 1, 2015.
TH
E
13
OF
Chief Sands, Ms. Iafrate showed you a page from your
Starting at line 4 you were asked:
18
discuss that backup plan with the sheriff?"
17
Your answer was:
It's page 76
"No, I had discussed that with him
20
prior to the injunction," and then you describe a scenario of
21
having to drive halfway across the state and you had a problem
IE
11:55:04
"Did you ever
ND
19
11:55:31
with that detention.
FR
23
11:54:39
Mr. Young.
12
22
11:54:20
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Okay.
Do you see that?
And then let's scroll down to line 8 on page 77, and
11:55:43
349
you said at line 18 of page 76 that your problem was detaining
somebody for that length of time without a response from the
agency that's going to take jurisdiction, and you talk about
the Border Patrol not being close by and driving them to
Nogales or to Casa Grande.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And you said that once the 287(g) authority was taken away
in 2009 you thought that that was a problem, to take that much
time to transport someone to the Border Patrol, right?
11
A.
I personally believed that.
12
Q.
Now, this discussion, just to be clear here, that you
13
describe that you had with the sheriff about this issue you had
14
relating to the time of transport, that was before the
15
preliminary injunction, correct?
16
A.
Correct.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
deposition, which is page 65, starting on line 14.
TH
E
OF
11:56:45
Now, I want to direct you to another page of your
You were asked on that page, quote:
"At any time did
ND
19
you ever discuss with anyone the issue of what should be done
21
with someone who's expected of being -- who's suspected of

being an illegal immigrant, but who is determined not to be
chargeable with a state crime in light of the injunction?"
FR
23
24
25
11:57:12
IE
20
22
11:56:28
FO
10
11:56:13
And at line 22 of page 65 you answered:
discussion with the sheriff on that."
"I had a
11:57:36
350
Do you see that?

A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Okay.
you discussed yesterday, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And that's a different discussion from the one that you
described at page 76 and 77 of your deposition, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, in that one you discussed with him the drop-house
GB
OW
.C
OM
That's one of the discussions with the sheriff that
scenario, is that right?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Now, I would ask that we see page 66 of your deposition so
13
you can see the rest of your testimony.
14
just read it, starting at page 25:
TH
E
15
"Question:
All right.
And actually, I'll
And what did you and the
sheriff discuss about that issue?"

Answer, starting at line 2 at page 66:
18
"That my belief was that if somebody was stopped and
17
detained for a state violation and there was -- there was
20
nothing else to hold them on or arrest them on, then they
21
should be released.
24
25
IE
"Question:
11:58:39
Even if they were illegally in the
country?
FR
23
ND
19
22
11:58:22
OF
16
11:58:01
FO
10
11:57:46
"Answer:
Specifically to the analogy that I used with
him was a drop-house scenario.
And if we had no human
11:58:56
smuggling charges to bring about them, we had to let them go.
2
3
"Question:
Regardless of whether they were in the
country legally?
"Answer:
Correct.
"Question:
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
And when you say let them go, did
you mean releasing them completely, or could that include
handing them over to ICE or the Border Patrol?"
8
9
351
Your answer was:
"I was -- I was specifically saying
that they had to be released.

"Question:
And not handed over to another agency?
11
"Answer:
12
Now, that was the discussion that you had with the
Correct."
sheriff after the injunction, is that right?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
dependence on the amount of time it would take to transport
17
someone to the Border Patrol?
18
A.
In the last scenario you just mentioned, or last, no.
19
Q.
During this discussion that you had with the sheriff after
20
the injunction, the one that we were just discussing, did the
21
sheriff seem to you to be understanding what you told him?
25
11:59:49
IE
ND
OF
Did your view at that time have any relation or
MS. IAFRATE:
12:00:11
Objection, Your Honor, foundation,
speculation.
FR
24
TH
E
13
23
11:59:35
FO
10
22
11:59:13
THE COURT:
I'll allow it for its limited value of
what the perception of Mr. Sands was.
12:00:26
Sands - Recross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
THE WITNESS:
352
I -- I don't think I can remember
exactly.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
believe that you can recall that he wasn't understanding what
you were telling him?
A.
Did the sheriff do or say anything that -- to lead you to
No.
8
9
GB
OW
.C
OM
MS. IAFRATE:
Objection, Your Honor, foundation,
speculation.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
11
MR. YOUNG:
Thank you very much, Chief Sands.
12
THE WITNESS:
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. COMO:
Thank you.
TH
E
Mr. Como.
I just have a few
OF
follow-up questions.
16
BY MR. COMO:
18
Q.
19
Ms. Iafrate's examination where she asked about whether you
20
were personally involved in the training materials that were
21
being put together.
IE
ND
Chief, I'd just like to focus you back to the very end of
12:01:13
Do you recall those questions?
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
What was your involvement in that?
25
A.
I had really no involvement in that other than -- than it's
FR
23
12:00:57
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
17
22
12:00:47
FO
10
15
12:00:40
12:01:21
353
apparent that I directed subordinate staff to develop that.
Q.
materials that you had any involvement at all?
you'd get staff rolling, get the ball rolling, and then let
them do their job?
A.
Correct.
Q.
So this was not unusual in that sense, correct?
A.
Correct.
MR. COMO:
No further questions, Your Honor.
you.
THE COURT:
12
Mr. Walker.
13
MR. WALKER:
14
THE COURT:
I have just a few, Your Honor.
Sure.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
17
Q.
18
mentioned that in the period when Chief Deputy Hendershott left
19
the office and Chief Deputy Sheridan was transitioning in,
20
there were a number of disputes between the Maricopa County
21
Sheriff's Office and the County.
12:02:04
OF
BY MR. WALKER:
IE
ND
Chief Sands, in response to questions from Ms. Iafrate you
12:02:20
Do you remember that?
A.
Yes, I do.
24
Q.
And approximately what time frame was that?
25
A.
Those disputes?
FR
23
12:01:54
Thank you.
16
22
12:01:47
Thank
TH
E
11
15
In other words,
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
And is that typical of what you would do for any training
12:02:32
Sands - Reross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
354
Q.
Yes.
A.
As my -- as I recollect it, I think somewhere around 2009,
I believe.
or I had none, actually, so I have a hard time recollecting
anything.
Q.
conducted some criminal investigations into the conduct of
certain members of the board of supervisors?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And do you recall whether any further those investigations
11
led to the filing of criminal charges against members of the
12
board of supervisors?
13
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I didn't have a lot of involvement in any of that,
Do you recall whether the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office
FO
TH
E
Excuse me, I do.
I remember something about an
indictment coming down about Stapley, and that's -- and there
16
was some issue with Supervisor Wilcox, but I'm not really sure.
17
My memory doesn't serve me well on it.
18
Q.
19
of those criminal investigations and charges?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
Do you know whether there were any lawsuits that came out
25
I believe there were, yes.
12:03:45
Do you know when those lawsuits were resolved?
IE
A.
FR
24
12:03:20
OF
15
23
12:03:06
I don't really remember, no.
14
22
12:02:50
No, I can't remember.

MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:

Thank you.
Ms. Iafrate.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12:04:01
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
deposition that talks about your belief following the
355
Do you recall that?
GB
OW
.C
OM
Chief, you just had read to you further portions of your
A.
Yes.
Q.
And did you tell any of the deputies regarding your belief
regarding the preliminary injunction?

MR. COMO:
Objection, form.
10
THE WITNESS:
11
THE COURT:
12
THE WITNESS:
13
THE COURT:
I rule on it.
Wait.
I'm sorry.
-- even when I'm slow you gotta wait till
Okay?
Thanks.
15
What's the nature of your objection specifically?
16
MR. COMO:
that's all.
THE COURT:
the question?
20
understood it.
12:04:52
MS. IAFRATE:
IE
21
THE COURT:
Okay.
I'll give you another pass at it.
BY MS. IAFRATE:
FR
23
You just want to tighten up
I'm not quite sure that the way you said it I
ND
19
22
All right.
18
12:04:41
The question just seemed too general to me,
OF
17
12:04:32
Chief, when there's an objection --
TH
E
14
I don't --
FO
12:04:15
24
Q.
Do you know that following the preliminary injunction, the
25
members of the HSU believed that they could hold suspects until
12:05:01
356
an investigation was complete?
A.
I'm not sure.
Q.
Do you know that following the preliminary injunction the
HSU detectives believed that if they didn't have a state
charge, they could transport the individuals to ICE or Border
Patrol?
A.
I believe they were doing that.
Q.
And HSU was under you, correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Did you ever tell anyone at HSU that that violated the
11
12
A.
I have nothing further.
14
THE COURT:
15
Next witness, as I indicated, I hope it's all right
TH
E
MS. IAFRATE:
Okay.
Chief, you want to step down.
with everybody, since we didn't begin till 11:00, we're going
17
to go till 1:00, take the lunch break between 1:00 and 2:00.
So ask for your next witness.
18
24
25
Your Honor, plaintiffs call Brian
Jakowinicz.
IE
THE COURT:
12:06:12
Yes.
MS. IAFRATE:
I need to go check to see if he's here.
I hope that because of the confusion of the changing of the
FR
23
MS. WANG:
ND
19
22
12:05:51
OF
16
21
12:05:36
I don't recall doing that, no.
13
20
12:05:24
FO
GB
OW
.C
OM
witnesses -- I don't know, so -THE COURT:
Please check.
12:06:22
MS. IAFRATE:
Thanks.
(Pause in proceedings.)
MS. IAFRATE:
GB
OW
.C
OM
My apologies.
He is not here.
I have
Sousa waiting in the wings, and it was just an oversight
because --
6
7
THE COURT:
It's not a problem.
We'll take lunch
break right now and we will resume at 1 o'clock.
And you can get him here by 1 o'clock, I take it?
MS. IAFRATE:
Yes.
THE COURT:
Thank you.
11
THE CLERK:
All rise, please.
12
THE COURT:
This is on the record, I just want to say
MR. COMO:
TH
E
that I apologize to you for being too brusque this morning.
14
15
I understand, and you've been on this case
a lot longer than I have.
No apology necessary.
(Lunch recess taken.)
17
THE CLERK:
session.
22
Court is now in
Please be seated.
Ms. Iafrate, over lunch the monitors came to me again
13:03:55
because there was a problem about information that they had

requested to do some sort of statistical analysis, since
they're here on their audit visit, they'd requested yesterday
FR
23
12:08:04
IE
21
THE COURT:
All rise, please.
ND
19
20
OF
16
18
12:07:21
FO
10
13
12:07:12
24
and was not provided.
The response was that you were handling
25
all Bates stamping and that they couldn't get access through
13:04:15
you.
But what I told them to do, and if you have any objection
let me know, it's apparently a tracks code manual that they
need from the department.
and quite common.
GB
OW
.C
OM
It's apparently government published
I indicated that they should note what it is, how many
pages it is, give them a copy, and then you can follow up with
a Bates stamped copy, because I realize you're very, very busy
this week.
Do you have any objection to me doing that?

MS. IAFRATE:
This is the first that I've heard of the
FO
10
request or the response, Your Honor, so I -- that's fine.
12
long as it's a publication that's public, I don't have a
13
problem.
14
THE COURT:
Right.
Well, as I indicated before, I
don't have any problem, of course, running these things through
16
you, and I realize you're busy this week, but we really need to
17
be very timely in responding to monitors' requests, and if it
18
gets to be an issue I'm going to raise it again.
S
IE
MS. IAFRATE:
24
25
We do.
13:05:17
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, more housekeeping, actually,
on exhibits.
FR
23
Do we have Lieutenant Jakowinicz here?
ND
19
22
13:05:01
OF
15
21
13:04:45
As
TH
E
11
20
13:04:33
We now have stipulations by all parties to
admission of the following exhibits:

THE COURT:
That it?
164 through 167.

13:05:32
MR. YOUNG:
And we have, subject to Mr. Como's
objection, which he will state or restate, stipulations by
everyone as to the following exhibits, again, subject to that
objection --
GB
OW
.C
OM
THE COURT:
The continuing objection I gave him this
MR. YOUNG:
Yes.
THE COURT:
I did want to mention, I said to him just
morning?
as we were going to off the record, and I don't think everybody

in the courtroom heard, I apologized to Mr. Como while we were
11
still on the record for being a little brusque with him this
12
morning.
13
make the record.
14
and you --
It wasn't merited.
And I did let him subsequently
TH
E
But I did want to apologize to you, Mr. Como,
15
MR. COMO:
16
THE COURT:
17
So subject to that continuing objection, what
22
24
25
13:06:12
OF
-- you do have the continuing objection.
S
ND
The following exhibits:
51, 52, 53, 54,
56, 59, 76, 77, 82, 90, 93 through 100, and 115.
THE COURT:
All right.
13:06:25
So any other documents,
Mr. Young?
FR
23
MR. YOUNG:
IE
21
No apology's necessary, Your Honor.
documents are there?
19
20
13:05:56
FO
10
18
13:05:49
MR. YOUNG:
I'm hoping there will be more as the week
goes on, but at this point no more.

THE COURT:
All right.
Thank you.
13:06:47
Jakowinicz - Direct, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
Exhibits 164, 165, 166, and 167 are admitted.
(Exhibits Nos. 164-167 are admitted into evidence.)
THE COURT:
GB
OW
.C
OM
I am also admitting the following
exhibits, but I am noting Mr. Como's continuing objection in
which I believe the County joined.
56, 59, 76, 77, 82, 90, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, and
115.
115 are admitted into evidence.)
We ready now for Lieutenant Jakowinicz?

I'm going to get it.
Are you calling -- who's calling him?
13
MR. SEGURA:
14
THE COURT:
17
THE CLERK:
22
B-r-i-a-n,
THE CLERK:
All right.
Raise your right hand.
13:08:08
(Brian James Jakowinicz was duly sworn as a witness.)
FR
23
Brian James Jakowinicz.
J-a-k-o-w-i-n-i-c-z.
ND
21
13:07:50
Would you state your full name for the
THE WITNESS:
IE
20
Lieutenant, please come
record and spell your first and last name.
18
19
All right.
OF
16
13:07:29
Plaintiffs call Lieutenant Jakowinicz.
TH
E
forward.
Jakowinicz.
Jakowinicz.
12
15
13:07:04
(Exhibits No. 51-54, 56, 59, 76-77, 82, 90, 93-100,
10
11
Exhibits 51, 52, 53, 54,
FO
360
THE COURT:
Please.
BRIAN JAMES JAKOWINICZ,
24
called as a witness herein, having been duly sworn, was
25
examined and testified as follows:
13:08:36
361
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Good afternoon, Lieutenant.
A.
Good afternoon, sir.
Q.
Since there's been some confusion about the pronunciation
of your last name, could you just clarify it for us all?
A.
Jakowinicz.
Q.
Thank you.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Lieutenant, when did you start at MCSO?

A.
1998.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
stints that you've done throughout the agency so we can save
17
some time.
And you've been continuously employed with MCSO?
13:09:01
OF
And I'm just going to sum up what I understand of
You've been on Patrol, correct?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
ND
SWATs, the personnel department, is that right?
13:09:11
Yes, sir.
IE
Q.
And you've been -- you now have the rank of lieutenant,
correct?
FR
23
TH
E
So about 17 years, right?
18
13:08:52
FO
10
22
13:08:43
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
And after you became lieutenant you did some time with the
13:09:21
362
training department, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And what was your position with the training department?
A.
Advanced officer training.
Q.
Okay.
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then after a few years of doing that you were actually
in property and evidence, right?
GB
OW
.C
OM
And then you went back to patrol as a lieutenant,
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
property and evidence?
13
A.
I was the division commander.
14
Q.
And what does that involve?
15
A.
The overall supervision of the division.
16
Q.
Does that involve the preservation of case evidence?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And you were there for -- and then you went back to the
19
training division, is that correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
ND
OF
13:09:55
Yes, sir.
Okay.
13:10:14
And then after a few months is when you joined the
Human Smuggling Division?

A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
April 2012.
FR
23
And what were your duties while you were with
IE
22
13:09:45
FO
10
13:09:35
And when did you start with HSU?

13:10:26
Q.
And what were your responsibilities when you started
with HSU?
A.
I was the lieutenant over the Human Smuggling Division.
Q.
Okay.
A.
There was the human smuggling units, there was two units,
and the criminal employment unit.
Q.
You oversaw three sergeants, right?
A.
Three supervisors.
acting as a supervisor, as a sergeant.
And who did you oversee?
Okay.
And you were with HSU until May of 2013, right?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
And why did you leave HSU?
13
A.
I didn't leave, necessarily.
14
course of direction changed and --
15
Q.
16
Investigations Division?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
HSU, right?
20
A.
21
Q.
13:11:04
TH
E
FO
Q.
That's -- that's when the
13:11:20
OF
Is that when HSU became -- was subsumed into the Special
ND
Chief Trombi called you to ask if you would join
Yes, sir.
13:11:34
IE
And you asked for some time to think about it?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Why did you do that?
24
A.
I didn't know much about human smuggling.
25
some of the stuff I saw on TV.
FR
23
13:10:45
There were two sergeants, one deputy
10
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
Okay.
363
All I know is
13:11:47
Q.
Okay.
You had concerns, right, about joining HSU?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Because of what you had seen on TV and in the media?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
smuggling operations, you perceived that they were seen as
controversial?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
364
And because you perceived that the MCSO's human
So you made some phone calls to call find more about
HSU, right?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
You called Lieutenant Sousa?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And you were effectively taking over his position, correct?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
have any concerns, right?
18
A.
More or less, yes.
19
Q.
He said that this court case was in the past?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
13:12:22
ND
OF
And Lieutenant Sousa told you that you shouldn't
Yes, more or less, something like that.
13:12:39
IE
And a few days later you called Chief Trombi back, right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And you talked to him about these concerns as well, right?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
13:12:14
FO
10
22
13:11:56
And he also reassured you that the lawsuits were in
13:12:51
the past, is that right?
MR. WALKER:
Objection, Your Honor.
It seems to me
GB
OW
.C
OM
365
when the witness is testifying to what other people told him,
what we need is the witness's recollection, not counsel's, and
I would suggest the leading questions --
All right.
Mr. Walker, I'm going to tell
you that I take one-word objections.
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
10
MR. WALKER:
11
THE COURT:
practice.
13
you one word.
What's your one-word objection?

Form.
Okay.
I like more specification than "form."
I'll give
You can specify what your objection is.
14
MR. WALKER:
Leading.
15
THE COURT:
All right.
As I've indicated, I am going
to give certain leeway to the plaintiffs in this case when they
17
call MCSO witnesses.
18
in the leading here a little bit.
OF
16
21
22
Okay?
Yes, Your Honor.

Ms. Iafrate.
MS. IAFRATE:
13:13:59
I was going to object to hearsay, Your
Honor.
FR
23
THE COURT:
IE
20
13:13:43
Still, I do believe that we need to rein
MR. SEGURA:
ND
19
13:13:26
When I -- you know, that's a state
TH
E
12
Okay.
FO
THE COURT:
13:13:14
THE COURT:
It doesn't seem to me like the questions
24
are being asked for the truth of the matter asserted, so --
25
because clearly, the litigation wasn't over.
13:14:13
MR. SEGURA:
THE COURT:
That's correct, Your Honor.

I'm going to overrule the objection.
GB
OW
.C
OM
366
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
And what did Chief Trombi tell you about your concerns?
A.
He mentioned that the legal aspects of it were behind me,
that that wasn't going to be a concern, that that had all been
worked out.
things had slowed down and it's a good time to learn what's
going on and start a new position.
That it's a good time to come in now because
Q.
11
join HSU, is that correct?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
to learn about this case because Chief Trombi told you that it
15
was in the past, right?
16
A.
Yeah, just -- yeah, yes, sir.
17
Q.
Had you heard about an investigation by the Department of
18
Justice involving HSU before -- before joining HSU?
19
A.
20
know specifics to anything.
21
me, legal issues going on.
13:14:50
TH
E
And then once you got to HSU, you didn't take steps
OF
13:15:05
I didn't
I knew there were legal -- excuse
13:15:32
I didn't know specifics at that
IE
ND
I knew that there were investigations going on.
time.
Q.
FR
23
And so obviously you then told Chief Trombi that you would
FO
10
22
13:14:29
So your understanding was those legal issues were in the
24
past, those were -- those had been taken care of.
25
A.
Yes, sir.
13:15:47
367
Q.
Lieutenant Sousa that there was an order, and that order was
for you to preserve certain e-mails, correct?
A.
"order" was used, but there was some sort of -- some of the, I
guess, fallout from the legal proceedings is that we had to
save e-mails, anything having to do with operations.
Q.
And you followed this order, right?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Earlier you were telling me that the Human Smuggling
11
Division -- or actually, you have -- you referenced this, but
12
the Human Smuggling Division is actually comprised of two
13
units, right?
14
for criminal enforcement operations, right?
15
employment operations, right?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
primarily for doing interdiction operations?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
He -- he said there was -- I don't know if
13:16:18
FO
13:16:33
Criminal
13:16:57
OF
TH
E
One for human smuggling operations and another
And the human smuggling squad is responsible
And what is an interdiction operation?
13:17:04
It was mostly roadside interdictions on the highways, on
known smuggling corridors.

Q.
FR
23
Right, yeah.
IE
22
When you started at HSU you -- you were told by
GB
OW
.C
OM
ND
And that's to identify what's called a potential load
24
vehicle?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
13:17:19
368
Q.
A vehicle that may be involved in human smuggling?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
suspected to be involved in human smuggling is stopped, the
driver and passengers would be questioned, correct, about
whether there is -- to determine whether there is in fact human
smuggling ongoing, correct?
And if a vehicle that's thought to be -- or
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Objection, Your Honor, leading.
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
I'm sorry.
Could you restate the
11
question?
12
BY MR. SEGURA:
13
Q.
14
stopped by an HSU member, the driver, and sometimes passengers,
15
would be questioned as to -- to determine whether there is in
16
fact human smuggling ongoing, is that correct?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And these questions would be asked to determine also if
19
there was a human smuggling conspiracy?
20
A.
21
Q.
13:18:07
ND
OF
TH
E
When a potential load vehicle is identified and
Yes, sir.
Okay.
13:18:25
And in doing so you would ask, HSU members would ask
passengers if they, for example, paid money to be smuggled into

the United States?
FR
23
13:17:53
IE
22
Sure.
13:17:39
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
And to be transported within the United States?
13:18:40
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Sometimes HSU members were only able to develop probable
cause of human smuggling as to some passengers, correct?
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Yes, sir.
MS. IAFRATE:
Could we have a time frame?
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Objection, Your Honor, foundation.
While you were at HSU.
THE COURT:
369
Okay.
I'll accept the clarification.
Do you understand the question, Lieutenant?
11
THE WITNESS:
12
THE COURT:
13
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
All right.
You may answer.
TH
E
I'm sorry, can you ask that again?
14
BY MR. SEGURA:
15
Q.
16
human smuggling ongoing, would only develop probable cause of
17
human smuggling as to some passengers, right?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
But not as to all passengers, that -- is that correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
13:19:13
ND
OF
Sometimes HSU members, in investigating whether there was
Yes, sir.
13:19:33
IE
So while you were at HSU, when there were no state charges
to hold someone and there was suspicion that they were present
unlawfully, the practice was to continue holding them and seek
FR
23
13:19:05
FO
10
22
13:18:57
24
to transfer them to ICE, correct?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
13:19:57
Q.
And that was pursuant to -- that was pursuant to what's
referred to as the LEAR policy?
A.
Snow's ruling in May of 2013, but yes.
Q.
the LEAR policy, right?
A.
though.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I had never heard of it called the LEAR policy until Judge
So knowing what you know now, that practice was pursuant to
Correct.
at HSU, right?
12
A.
Until May 2013, yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
December 2011 order?
15
A.
16
them.
17
essentially.
18
Q.
19
people in violation of that order, correct?
TH
E
What is your understanding now of the Court's
That if you don't have state charges, you need to release
13:20:41
OF
You can't hold them for ICE or Border Patrol,
But while you were at HSU, HSU members continued holding
ND
20
MR. COMO:
IE
my continuing objection.
THE COURT:
This is subject to
13:21:05
I won't keep standing up.
Thank you.
Overruled.
BY MR. SEGURA:
FR
23
13:20:22
FO
And that policy was in effect the entire time you were
11
22
13:20:11
I didn't hear it referred to as the LEAR policy,
Fair enough.
10
21
370
24
Q.
While you were at HSU, HSU members continued holding people
25
without state charges because they believed them to be
13:21:20
371
undocumented, correct?
A.
would say, please hold that person.
Q.
changes -- how interdictions were conducted continued without
any changes while you were at HSU?
A.
sir.
Q.
It was after speaking with ICE, yes, sir.
They
GB
OW
.C
OM
Yes, sir.
So interdictions you would say continued without any
Until 20- -- until Judge Snow's ruling in May of 2013, yes,
You were at a meeting -- you were at a meeting with the
sheriff in which he discussed what to do if ICE refused to take
11
someone who MCSO couldn't arrest on state charges but were
12
believed to be undocumented, is that right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
That's the Wells -- that was in the Wells Fargo building?
19
A.
To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
deposition and then ask you a question about it.
TH
E
And this was while you were at HSU?

13:22:33
OF
And this was in the Sheriff's Office?
ND
Okay.
IE
FR
23
13:22:15
FO
10
22
13:21:46
I'd like to play you a video clip from your
13:22:42
If you could get the first clip, please.

"Question:
What are you going to do if you don't have
24
state charges for someone, but ICE refuses them.
25
respond?"
Did you
13:23:05
"THE WITNESS:
Well, I don't recall responding.
remember him posing the question.
he said, "You call Border Patrol.
sheriff.
I kind of looked at him, and
GB
OW
.C
OM
372
That's my order.
I'm the
I want you calling Border Patrol."

MR. SEGURA:
Thank you.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
exchange occurred with the sheriff?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
And after the sheriff gave you this direction, what did you
11
say?
12
A.
I just said okay.
13
Q.
Because he's your boss, right?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
And knowing what you know now, that direction was contrary
16
to the Court's December 2011 order?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
While you were at the training division --
Lieutenant, is that an accurate description of how this
FO
TH
E
OF
13:23:49
20
preceding your time with HSU, correct?
21
A.
13:24:10
Yes, sir.
IE
Q.
And while you were there, do you recall receiving an e-mail
including training scenarios that Sergeant Palmer had
FR
23
13:23:27
You were at the training division immediately
ND
19
22
13:23:20
24
developed?
25
A.
I believe it came up in my first deposition --
13:24:23
Q.
Okay.
A.
-- showed it to me.
Q.
So you're now aware that you received that, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
MR. SEGURA:
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
So could we show the witness
Exhibit 189, which has already been admitted.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
number 165691 at the bottom.
It's the first page of the
11
A.
I'm not sure, say again.
12
Q.
The first page of the e-mail within this exhibit.
13
A.
Page 1 of 5?
14
Q.
Yes.
15
A.
Okay.
16
Q.
And at the bottom do you see an e-mail from
17
Lieutenant Sousa in which you are cc'd?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
And why do you believe you received this e-mail?
20
A.
21
Q.
13:25:05
13:25:16
ND
OF
TH
E
FO
e-mail.
I took it as a heads-up of something that could be coming.
13:25:33
IE
And why do you think you were given a heads-up?
A.
I was in training at the time.
Q.
And do you remember any follow-up to this e-mail while you
FR
23
13:24:34
I would like you to turn to the page that has the
10
22
373
24
were at the training division?
25
A.
I don't.
13:25:53
Q.
training scenarios?
shortly after?
A.
what you're referring to.
Q.
And do you recall receiving another e-mail about these
GB
OW
.C
OM
Either right before you started at HSU or
I think that was in the first deposition as well, if that's
Well, let's -- let's take a look.
MR. SEGURA:
which has been admitted into evidence.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Pull up Exhibit --
Q.
And do you prefer a paper copy, or are you --
11
A.
I prefer a paper copy.
12
Q.
Thank you.
THE CLERK:
14
THE WITNESS:
It's easier for me.
(Handing exhibit to witness.)
TH
E
13
13:26:26
FO
10
BY MR. SEGURA:
16
Q.
17
the cover page.
18
March 27th, 2012, in which you are cc'd?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
ND
Thank you.
15
started at HSU?
13:26:47
OF
And if I could you turn, it's the first page after -- after
Do you see an e-mail from Lieutenant Sousa on
IE
And do you recall if you received this e-mail after having
A.
No, I didn't start until April.
Q.
All right.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
13:26:11
Could we show the witness Exhibit 156,
22
374
13:27:01
But it was shortly before?
And this also includes the training scenarios that
13:27:15
375
Sergeant Palmer -- well, I will tell you, because this version
is redacted, that this also includes the training scenarios
developed by Sergeant Palmer.
you recall the training that Sergeant Palmer developed
scenarios for ever having occurred while you were at HSU?
A.
Not to my knowledge, sir.
Q.
Did anyone -- knowing what you know now, would this
training have changed how HSU operated?
A.
If it was put out correctly, understanding the order, yes.
10
Q.
It would have prevented people from being detained without
11
state charges on the basis of their immigration status?
12
A.
13
believe.
14
Q.
15
conducted, is that right?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
And while you were at HSU you received a lot of
18
commendation, correct, for your work?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
And I just want to ask you if
FO
13:28:23
TH
E
Yeah, if it was put out correctly, yes, it would have, I
To your knowledge, that training was never -- was never
OF
13:28:39
ND
I was told "good job," yeah.

And who were you told "good job" by?
13:29:02
My bosses; everybody I would deal with.
Q.
Would Sheriff Arpaio ever say "good job"?
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
Would say "keep up the good work"?
25
A.
More or less, yes, sir.
FR
23
13:27:49
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
13:29:18
Q.
Okay.
And what did you take that to mean?
A.
That I was doing a good job, what was expected of me.
Q.
Okay.
"good job," that indicated, obviously, approval of what your
division, the Human Smuggling Division, was doing, right?
GB
OW
.C
OM
Did you believe that because you were being told
MS. IAFRATE:
Objection, Your Honor, speculation.
MR. SEGURA:
I'm asking for his understanding, Your
Honor.
THE COURT:
10
I'll allow it.
THE WITNESS:
Could you restate the question?
11
BY MR. SEGURA:
12
Q.
13
work," your understanding was that the sheriff approved of the
14
work that was being conducted by HSU.
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
And did Chief Trombi also commend your work while you were
17
at HSU?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
And you also took that as approval of the work that your
20
subordinates were doing within HSU?
21
A.
13:30:18
ND
OF
TH
E
By telling you "good job" or things like "keep up the good
Q.
13:30:38
Yes, sir.
In fact, when you were brought on, Chief Trombi told you
that he wasn't asking you to fix anything, right?
FR
23
13:30:01
IE
22
13:29:39
FO
376
24
A.
Yes, sir.
Correct, sir.
25
Q.
And I believe you told me during your deposition that
13:30:51
377
Chief Trombi told you that in fact, you should not change
anything, is that right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
That things were like that for a reason, like they were for
a reason?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And so you felt no need to change anything because of this
positive feedback, right?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Could you explain to me after an interdiction event what
11
documentation is produced by HSU -- by HSU members?
12
A.
Documentation such as what?
13
Q.
After an interdiction event certain records are produced,
14
correct?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
What types of records are produced after an interdiction
17
event?
18
A.
A departmental report would be completed.
19
Q.
And what does a departmental report include?
20
A.
21
people involved, a brief synopsis on the first page, but then
13:31:05
13:31:40
ND
OF
TH
E
FO
13:31:15
13:31:48
the entire story would be attached to the back, you know, in

the narrative.
FR
23
It would have a face sheet with a time, location, the
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
If there's anything else it would be included
24
in that departmental report.
25
Q.
Are shift summaries included in the departmental report?
13:32:11
378
A.
Not generally.
It's not part of the report.
Q.
Are shift summaries produced after an interdiction event?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
summaries indicate if anyone was arrested?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And the charges on which they're arrested?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And those shift summaries, while you were at HSU, would
GB
OW
.C
OM
And those shift summaries would -- would those shift
also indicate if anyone was transferred to ICE because there
11
were no state charges to hold them, right?
12
A.
13
yes.
14
Q.
15
there were people who were transferred to ICE who could not be
16
held because there were no state charges?
17
A.
18
summary every time, I can't say that.
19
Q.
20
the duties of HSU members to produce those shift summaries?
21
A.
TH
E
13:32:57
I can't tell you that was documented in the shift
Yeah.
But sometimes that was not documented, although
OF
Okay.
ND
And are those shift summaries produced as -- is it part of
Yes, sir.
13:33:17
It would be the supervisor, the sergeant, that
would do a case summary -Q.
Okay.
24
A.
-- or a shift summary, rather.
25
Q.
And would these -- would these shift summaries be sent by
FR
23
I can't say that happened every time, but it did happen,
IE
22
13:32:44
FO
10
13:32:30
13:33:29
379
e-mail to anyone?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And who would they be sent to?
A.
It was a long link of different people that got that.
don't know them all off the top of my head, but it was a lot of
people.
Q.
Chief Sands?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Chief Trombi?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Would they sometimes include the public information
12
officers at MCSO?
13
A.
BY MR. SEGURA:
16
Q.
17
information drawn from shift summaries and departmental
18
reports, is that correct?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
December 2011 order through 2013?
13:34:26
OF
MCSO has created spreadsheets that compile certain
And those have been compiled from the date of the Court's
IE
A.
13:34:35
Actually, I think it starts -- it's the entire month of
December, so nothing was missed.
FR
23
13:33:53
FO
15
22
13:33:48
ND
14
TH
E
Yes, sir.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Did the whole month of
24
December '11 all the way through 2012 and 2013.
25
believe it was all of 2013 as well.
We did I
13:35:01
Q.
I would like to show you what has been marked as
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 207, and it is not admitted into evidence
yet.
THE CLERK:
THE WITNESS:
MR. SEGURA:
GB
OW
.C
OM
Okay.
380

Thank you.
I actually have a -- if you don't mind, I
have a larger version, with the Court's permission.
spreadsheet that's a little difficult to read on an 8 by 11.
I'm happy to show -THE COURT:
11
MR. SEGURA:
It's a
To all counsel?
Well, I only have two copies, but counsel
have seen this.

THE COURT:
14
MS. IAFRATE:
15
THE COURT:
Please show it to her.
16
THE COURT:
Mr. Como, do you want to go take a look at
MR. COMO:
THE COURT:
word.
22
IE
FR
THE COURT:
13:36:03
Too small for me to read.
Any objection?
MS. IAFRATE:
21
I don't know until I see it, Your Honor.
Yeah.
ND
19
23
OF
it, please?
18
20
Any objection?
TH
E
13
17
13:35:50
FO
10
12
13:35:33
Yes, Your Honor.
I can't do it in one
13:36:39
I'll give you three.
MS. IAFRATE:
24
THE COURT:
25
MS. IAFRATE:
Three?
Objection --
You want to see me at sidebar?

Your Honor, this is generated from a
13:36:59
disk that can be shown.
complete as it relates to the actual exhibits that were
disclosed.
MR. SEGURA:
THE COURT:
This is, I believe, illegible and not
Your Honor --
I have an objection.
objection is foundation.
unless you lay more foundation.
MR. SEGURA:
THE COURT:
11
MR. SEGURA:
You may.
Thank you.
version?
13
14
May I show the witness the exhibit to lay
THE COURT:
version?
15
MS. IAFRATE:
16
THE COURT:
17
MR. SEGURA:
May I show him the large
No.
OF
All right.
13:37:42
Thank you.
BY MR. SEGURA:
19
Q.
20
spreadsheets you said were produced, compiled information from
21
shift summaries, I believe you said yes, correct?
18
ND
Before we get to that exhibit, the spreadsheet -- and
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And that includes number of people arrested, correct?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
And if noted, the number of people who have been turned
FR
23
13:38:01
IE
22
13:37:32
Any objection to him showing the larger
TH
E
12
13:37:20
I'm going to sustain the objection
the foundation?
10
I will take it the
FO
GB
OW
.C
OM
381
13:38:13
382
over to ICE because there were no state charges, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
spreadsheets?
A.
didn't put the spreadsheet together.
spreadsheet.
Q.
But you yourself had someone produce the spreadsheet?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And do you believe this is an accurate compilation, to your
11
knowledge, of the shift summaries for this period of time?
12
A.
13
I could be -- could be off on that, but I thought -- 'cause we
14
had talked about doing the entire year, just the month or what.
15
I thought they did the whole month, but it might have been just
16
from the date of the order forward.
17
Q.
18
try on this one before I get to the next two.
22
13:38:36
I didn't create the
FO
13:38:52
13:39:16
OF
TH
E
I thought they did the whole month of December.
And I would like to show you -- well, let me just
Okay.
Your Honor, plaintiffs request that
ND
MR. SEGURA:
Exhibit 207 be admitted into evidence.

MR. COMO:
13:39:36
This one's subject to my continuing
objection, Your Honor.
FR
23
One of my sergeants was tasked with this.
Yes, sir.
IE
21
And you were tasked with producing these
I didn't have the -- the firsthand -- I oversaw it.
19
20
GB
OW
.C
OM
MS. IAFRATE:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. WALKER:
Foundation, Your Honor.
Do you have any objection to make?

I join both of the objections of counsel.
13:39:50
THE COURT:
All objections are overruled.
is admitted.
The exhibit
GB
OW
.C
OM
383
(Exhibit No. 207 is admitted into evidence.)
THE COURT:
Is this a summary simply for the HSU?
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
I do have a question before we go on.
Yes, sir.
Do you have any reason to believe that
patrol divisions generally were given any different instruction
with respect to turning people over to Border Patrol or ICE?

THE WITNESS:
11
THE COURT:
No, sir.
But this only -- and if they did turn
somebody over to Border Patrol or ICE, would HSU be made aware
13
of that?
TH
E
12
14
THE WITNESS:
15
THE COURT:
Not necessarily.
All right.
So this is only a compilation
OF
THE WITNESS:
18
THE COURT:
Yes, Your Honor.
Thank you.
BY MR. SEGURA:
20
Q.
21
criminal employment squad, is that correct?
ND
19
IE
And Lieutenant, similar compilations were made for the
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
13:40:28
of what HSU is aware of from its operations?
17
22
13:40:17
FO
10
16
13:40:02
13:40:36
And so I'd like to focus your attention, and
24
hopefully we can zoom in on the column that I'm interested in.
25
There's a column towards the right that says Arrests,
13:40:53
it says total -- it says Turned Over to ICE.
Do you see that?
GB
OW
.C
OM
384
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And the bottom row are the -- the total numbers for
those -- for the rows above, is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And the total number turned over to ICE from -- it appears
here, at least -- 12-23-2011 to the end of the year 2011 is 14,
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
And that number represents the number of people who were
12
held without state charges to be turned over to ICE, is that
13
correct?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
TH
E
Thank you.
13:41:39
I'd like to also show the witness Exhibit 208.
OF
16
And I
also have a large -- well, if we can zoom it in on the -- on
18
the laptop, is that -- is that okay, Your Honor?
17
THE COURT:
22
Thank you.
I think that might be an even
13:41:59
better approach.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
FR
23
MR. SEGURA:
IE
21
That works fine for me.
ND
19
20
13:41:30
FO
10
13:41:13
So this --
24
MS. IAFRATE:
25
MR. SEGURA:
Your Honor, this is not in evidence.

This has not been admitted --
13:42:08
THE COURT:
I'm not publishing it.
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Thank you for the clarification, but I
didn't intend to authorize publication.
the witness and counsel --
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Understood.
Merely showing it to
This spreadsheet is the compilation of information drawn
11
smuggling squad for the year 2012, correct?
12
A.
I don't have anything to reference.

THE COURT:
14
BY MR. SEGURA:
15
Q.
You need to give him the next page.
TH
E
13
Will you turn to the page after the cover, please?

THE COURT:
13:42:49
And then you're going to have to enlarge
OF
16
it so he can see it.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
18
BY MR. SEGURA:
20
Q.
21
A.
ND
19
It's a large version, you can flip through it.
13:43:08
I can make this out, I think, I can probably --
IE
Q.
Okay.
Is it your understanding that this spreadsheet is a
compilation similar to the spreadsheet I just showed you for
FR
23
13:42:28
FO
from shift summaries and departmental records from the human
22
13:42:17
-- so that we could --
10
17
385
24
the year 2012?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
13:43:19
Q.
And that was compiled in the same manner as the spreadsheet
for the year -- for the -- for the time period of December
23rd, 2011, to the end of 2011?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
6
7
MR. SEGURA:
Exhibit -- Plaintiffs' Exhibit 208 be admitted into evidence.

THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Any objections?
Overruled.
really --
12
MR. COMO:
Exhibit 208 is admitted.
I was just making a continuing objection to
TH
E
15
BY MR. SEGURA:
16
Q.
17
If we could look at the same column, Turned Over To ICE.
13:44:03
OF
Sir, I'd like you to turn to the last page on this exhibit.
Can you make out that number in the total at the

bottom?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
19
18
Yes, sir.
Well, not really.
I can take a guess.
13:44:17
IE
What is your guess?
A.
Pretty blurry.
Q.
And that number, in your understanding that
FR
23
13:43:45
this spreadsheet as with the prior one.
14
22
FO
10
13
13:43:33
11
GB
OW
.C
OM
386
It's either a 90 -- 97 or a 90.
24
number represents the number of individuals held without state
25
charges to be turned over to ICE during the year 2012, correct?
13:44:37
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Thank you.
You can put that away.
GB
OW
.C
OM
387
And my last spreadsheet which I would like to show you
is exhibit -- Plaintiffs' Exhibit 209.
And if we could go to
the first page after the cover and zoom in on the year.
A.
Okay.
Q.
Can you make out those numbers?
of the events in the spreadsheet?
A.
Can you make out the dates
It looks like it starts in January 2013, but I can't see it
very, very clear.
11
Q.
12
compilation of shift summaries, departmental records, for the
13
year 2013, similar to the previous two spreadsheets I've shown
14
you?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
in which the previous two spreadsheets that I have shown you?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
22
TH
E
OF
ND
13:46:01
Exhibit 209 be admitted into evidence.
24
25
13:45:47
And was this spreadsheet compiled in the same manner
MR. SEGURA:
FR
23
Is it your understanding that this spreadsheet rep -- is a
IE
21
13:45:29
FO
10
20
13:45:01
admitted.
MS. IAFRATE:
MR. COMO:
THE COURT:
Same objection, Your Honor, foundation.
Same objection, Your Honor.

All right.
Overruled.
The exhibit is
13:46:12
388

BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
that I've referenced you before, Turned Over to ICE, and zoom
in.
Could we go to the last page of this exhibit to the column
Turned Over to ICE?
A.
I can't.
It's just a big smudge.
THE COURT:
I think there's been an attempt to enlarge
MR. SEGURA:
Your Honor, may I show the witness an
enlarged version in paper format?

THE COURT:
14
MS. IAFRATE:
15
MR. SEGURA:
16
And I apologize, Your Honor.
OF
13:47:09
I did not know the
No objection, Your Honor, just for
ND
demonstrative purposes.
THE COURT:
Well, I've already admitted the exhibit.
MS. IAFRATE:
IE
21
This exhibit is fine, Your Honor.
13:47:26
I'm
talking about the enlarged.
FR
23
(Handing exhibit to counsel).
MS. IAFRATE:
20
22
If I could see it, Your Honor.
resolution of the electronic copy.
18
19
Any objection?
TH
E
13
17
13:46:58
FO
it again.
11
12
13:46:24
Can you make out the total underneath the column of
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
THE COURT:
24
BY MR. SEGURA:
25
Q.
Thank you.
Can you make out the number at the bottom of the column,
13:47:32
Turned Over to ICE?
A.
Unfortunately, I can't.
Q.
Okay.
total of the number of individuals turned over to ICE?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And those individuals would have been held without state
charges, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
In violation of the Court's December 2011 order?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Thank you.
12
spreadsheets.
FO
That number at the bottom of that column would be a
You can put that away.
15
responsibilities over HSU was to keep the sheriff informed of
16
HSU operations?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And the sheriff would be briefed by you and Chief Sands
19
prior to any operation, is that correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
13:48:22
ND
OF
your understanding was that part of Chief Sands's
Define what kind of operation.
13:48:44
IE
When would the sheriff be briefed by you prior to an
operation of HSU?
A.
FR
23
13:48:03
Your understanding -- turning to a different topic,
14
22
13:47:53
And no more
TH
E
13
GB
OW
.C
OM
389
When a CEU investigation was concluding with search
24
warrants.
25
Q.
Okay.
And Chief Sands would be part of that briefing?
13:49:01
390
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
The sheriff would obviously have the ultimate say as to
whether an operation goes forward, is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
The sheriff could shut down an operation?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Did you believe the sheriff had a particular interest in
HSU operations?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Why do you believe that?
11
A.
Everything we did resulted in a media release.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
sheriff had a particular interest in HSU operations?
14
A.
Can you restate that?
15
Q.
Sure.
16
particular interest in HSU operations, you said because every
17
time there was a press release, correct?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
And why do you believe that indicates that the sheriff had
20
a particular interest in HSU?
21
A.
FO
13:49:27
TH
E
And why do you believe that because of that, the
I guess I'm not -13:49:52
OF
When I asked you why you thought the sheriff had a
ND
Q.
13:50:05
Okay.
You had some conversations with the sheriff about
these press releases, correct?
FR
23
13:49:11
It resulted in media attention.
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
I had spoke with him, yes.
25
Q.
The sheriff would call you about a press release?
13:50:32
391
A.
He has.
Q.
Okay.
A.
It was towards the end of my time in HSU.
make sure they weren't putting something out -- he would read
it to me and I would say:
location.
16 people were arrested and it was 15, I would clarify the
numbers, it was for clarification.
Q.
So it was to ensure that the press releases were accurate?
10
A.
That was my role was -- that's what I took it as.
11
Q.
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
No, no, no.
Please don't say our
That could be a safety type thing.
Thank you.
He would call to
Or if they said
14
prior to your first deposition, correct?
15
A.
No, sir.
16
Q.
Or searching for your -- any documents that you may have
17
related to these contempt proceedings prior to your first
18
deposition, is that correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
for these contempt proceedings?
13:51:31
OF
TH
E
search your e-mails relating to these contempt proceedings
ND
Correct, sir.
13:51:50
IE
Shortly before -- you were deposed three times, correct,
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And shortly before your second deposition, members of the
FR
23
13:51:10
Turning to a different subject, you weren't asked to
13
22
13:50:53
FO
12
And what was the purpose of that?
24
compliance division of MCSO and someone from Ms. Iafrate's
25
office searched your e-mails, correct?
13:52:08
392
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And they found documents responsive to plaintiffs' -- they
found documents relevant to these contempt proceedings, is that
correct?
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
what was relevant.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Objection, Your Honor, foundation.
Do you know?
You turned over documents to the compliance -- the
11
court compliance division and someone from Ms. Iafrate's
12
office, correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And during your third deposition you testified that there
15
were additional e-mails between you and MCSO's former counsel,
16
Tim Casey, that related to these contempt proceedings, correct?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And you -- after that third deposition, you took it upon
19
yourself to e-mail those to the compliance division and
20
Ms. Iafrate?
21
A.
13:52:33
13:53:06
ND
OF
TH
E
FO
Q.
13:53:31
To Ms. Iafrate's office.
IE
Q.
FR
23
13:52:25
I know I turned stuff over; I don't know
10
22
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Thank you.
When you joined HSU, Lieutenant Sousa asked you to --
24
indicated that there was a requirement that you were to save
25
e-mails relating to HSU operations?
13:53:47
393
A.
Operational e-mails is what I was told.
Q.
Okay.
e-mails about?
A.
That's what I remember them saying, operational e-mails.
Q.
So things like casual jokes that were circulated over
e-mail, would those be part of the category of e-mails you were
supposed to save?
A.
That wouldn't be an operational e-mail.
Q.
Switching to a different subject, when you -- when you
arrived at HSU, you were told that one of the deputies at HSU
11
had a number of complaints that had been made against him,
12
correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
That was Deputy Armendariz?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
And Lieutenant Sousa told you this?
17
A.
I believe so, yes, sir.
18
Q.
And that caused some concern for you, right?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
TH
E
OF
13:54:35
Who was his supervisor at the time?
13:54:44
Who?
Q.
Who was Deputy Armendariz's supervisor at the time?
A.
I don't recall -- I can't say exactly that day if it didn't
FR
23
13:54:23
IE
22
13:54:05
FO
10
ND
GB
OW
.C
OM
Is that the only category that you were told to save
24
change or not, but I believe it was Sergeant Trowbridge.
25
Q.
And did you instruct Sergeant Trowbridge to do anything in
13:55:10
regards to your concerns about Deputy Armendariz?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
What did you instruct him to do?
A.
I instructed him to document all of the complaints that
came in.
6
7
MR. SEGURA:
I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 133,
THE CLERK:
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Do you recognize this document?
11
A.
Yes, sir, I do.
12
Q.
What is it?
13
A.
This is a memo from Sergeant Trowbridge to myself dated
14
February 13th, 2013.
15
Q.
MR. SEGURA:
No objection.
MR. COMO:
MR. WALKER:
ND
19
20
No objection, Your Honor.
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
IE
21
No objection.
13:56:25
133 is admitted.
BY MR. SEGURA:
FR
23
Plaintiffs request that exhibit --
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 133 be admitted into evidence.
18
22
13:56:11
OF
16
TH
E
Thank you.
13:56:04
FO
10
17
13:55:23
which has not been introduced into evidence.
8
9
GB
OW
.C
OM
394
24
Q.
And is this one of the reports that Lieutenant Trowbridge
25
sent to you pursuant to your direction?
13:56:35
395
A.
I'm sorry, could you restate that?
Q.
Sure.
that you instructed Sergeant Trowbridge to produce about Deputy
Armendariz?
A.
departmental report, it's not a departmental report.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
This was a memorandum, it wasn't -- if you're saying
Fair enough.
8
9
Is this one of the reports that we just discussed
Is this a -- one of the memoranda that you instructed

Sergeant Trowbridge to produce about Deputy Armendariz?
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
And did you -- this memorandum includes a summary of the
12
complaints made against Deputy Armendariz, is that correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And you sent this to your boss, Chief Trombi, is that
15
correct?
16
A.
17
along with this, and it went to Chief Trombi.
18
Q.
ND
Could we show the witness Exhibit 118,
which has been admitted into evidence.

THE CLERK:
13:57:39
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Could we go to the first page after the cover page.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Is this the memo that you were just describing that you
FR
23
TH
E
MR. SEGURA:
IE
22
I did a memo myself, a cover memo that went
Okay.
13:57:20
OF
Yes, sir.
19
21
13:57:04
FO
10
20
13:56:48
13:58:05
396
also sent to -- that you also drafted and sent to Chief Trombi?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And this outlined your concerns about Deputy Armendariz?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And so you did this on your own initiative, is that
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
What did you want Chief Trombi to do about Deputy
Armendariz?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
I asked for a transfer out of the Human Smuggling Division.
11
Q.
And what was his response?
12
A.
He had called me on the phone and said that he was going to
13
transfer him, and asked for Deputy Armendariz to come up to his
14
office.
15
to his office.
16
Q.
And what happened after that?
17
A.
Deputy Armendariz went up there and had a discussion with
18
Chief Trombi.
19
somehow later on in the day and Chief Trombi said I -- said
20
something to the effect of:
21
Put Charley 10-8.
TH
E
OF
13:58:54
ND
And I got a call or a text or a phone call
I know what you're going to say.
Q.
And what does that mean?
A.
It's police for we're going to put him on the street, put
FR
23
Asked me to arrange for Deputy Armendariz to come up
13:59:11
IE
22
13:58:30
FO
10
13:58:16
24
him to work.
25
Q.
So he would continue with HSU, correct?
13:59:28
397
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And you didn't agree with this, right?
A.
Correct, sir.
Q.
Did you think Chief Trombi handled this properly?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Why's that?
A.
His sergeant and lieutenant lined out pretty clearly some
problems that we saw, probably more firsthand, of some of the
issues that we saw that needed to be addressed, and the remedy
GB
OW
.C
OM
that we -- that I suggested ultimately was not -- not followed.
11
Q.
You wanted him transferred out of HSU, right?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
And would you characterize HSU as a, would you say a
14
specialty unit?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
out on patrol?
18
A.
19
more freedom.
20
Q.
21
more closely supervised?
TH
E
OF
All specialty units are going to have generally
ND
A.
FR
23
14:00:30
And would you say that HSU members have more freedom
Yes, sir.
Okay.
IE
22
14:00:09
FO
10
13:59:44
So if a deputy were on regular patrol would they be
14:00:46
Yes, sir.
MR. SEGURA:
Thank you.
24
I have no further questions now, Your Honor.
25
THE COURT:
Do you want to go first, Ms. Iafrate?
14:00:55
Jakowinicz - Cross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
MS. IAFRATE:
Yes, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
GB
OW
.C
OM
398
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
A.
Good afternoon, ma'am.
Q.
You started out your direct examination talking about your
background.
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
While you were in -- one of the areas where you landed
Do you recall that?
during your career was training, correct?
11
A.
Yes, ma'am.
12
Q.
You talked about advanced officer training.
13
you were in charge of?
14
A.
Yes, ma'am.
15
Q.
What does that mean?
16
A.
It's continuing training for police officers.
17
training after the police academy.
18
required to complete a certain amount of training every year.
19
Q.
20
create curriculums?
21
A.
TH
E
14:01:55
It's
Police officers are
OF
That's what
ND
In your position as advanced officer training did you
Q.
14:02:15
I did not.
How were you assigned a task when you were assigned to
advanced officer training?
FR
23
14:01:46
IE
22
FO
10
14:01:36
24
A.
When I was there, it was Commander Seebert, and he would
25
tell me, Hey, we need to get going on this, or I'd like to see
14:02:35
399
you doing this.
Q.
own without first getting a directive?
A.
Not that I recall, no.
Q.
Do you know when you were made aware that you were moving
from training to HSU?
A.
It was just before my transfer date.
Q.
Within days?
A.
I don't recall; probably.
10
Q.
Is that typical that you'd get short notice and then you're
11
transferred to another unit?
12
A.
13
start.
14
Q.
Well, you knew that you were asked to go to HSU, correct?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And there was a time frame where you were allowed to make
17
calls to inquire whether that was something that you thought
18
suited you, correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
FO
14:03:17
14:03:31
OF
TH
E
Sometimes you can get a little bit more head
ND
Yes.
How long of a time frame did you get in order to do that?
14:03:42
I think it was about three days from when -- three, four,
five days from when Chief Trombi had called me to when I spoke
to him and said yes, I'd be interested in coming over.
FR
23
It can be.
14:02:50
IE
22
Would you ever -- would you ever create training on your
24
Q.
I want to show you what was shown to you in direct
25
examination.
It's Exhibit 189, which is in evidence.
14:04:06
MR. SEGURA:
199?
400
189.
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
Do you still have that in front of you?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
Okay.
see at the bottom of 5691 it shows an e-mail chain where you
are also cc'd on it, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And it's highlighted on the screen also, if that's easier.
So go down -- it's five pages.
I want you -- do you
Do you see your name there?
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Well, it's enlarged on the screen.
13
there?
14
A.
Yes, ma'am.
15
Q.
When you received -- first of all, do you recall receiving
16
this e-mail string?
17
A.
18
deposition, the first time I remember seeing it.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
It's not highlighted on here, but --
14:05:00
OF
TH
E
Do you see your name
ND
Have you had an opportunity to review this e-mail string?

I don't know that I have or if I haven't.
14:05:21
Why don't you take a moment and look at it and see if you
recall if you have read this e-mail string before.

A.
Yes.
24
Q.
And that was the first time you recall seeing it?
25
A.
That I remembered seeing it, yes.
FR
23
14:04:49
I think the first time I ever recall seeing this was in my
IE
22
14:04:26
I think I read this during one of the depositions.
14:05:41
401
Q.
In this e-mail string were you tasked to do anything with
these scenarios?
A.
No, ma'am.
Q.
Do you recall Director Seebert ever directing you to start
developing training with these scenarios in mind?
A.
No, ma'am.
Q.
When you transferred over to the human smuggling unit, how
did you learn what they were doing?
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I spoke with -- most of it I got from Lieutenant Sousa,
speaking with him.
11
Q.
Did he brief you on situations?
12
A.
He gave me an overview of what the unit did.
13
Q.
Did you ever go out to conduct interdictions?
14
A.
Did I ever go out --
15
Q.
Yes, sir.
16
A.
-- prior to HSU or after?
17
Q.
While you were in HSU did you go out to interdictions?
18
A.
I did go to the road at the beginning to see what they do.
19
Q.
Did you yourself make any traffic stops?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
ND
OF
14:07:13
No, ma'am.
14:07:25
IE
Were you close enough so that you could hear what
individuals were doing?

A.
The air I would hear them, is that what you mean?
24
Q.
No.
25
interdictions, were you close enough to the traffic stop that
FR
23
14:06:53
FO
10
22
14:06:10
When you're out on the road and you're witnessing the

14:07:41
402
you could hear the two -- hear the officer and the individuals
talking?
A.
enough that I could hear people talking.
could hear the words of what they were saying, but I could hear
people talking.
Q.
you weren't involved in them personally, correct?
A.
No, ma'am.
10
Q.
And you didn't hear personally what questions were commonly
11
being asked out on the street?
12
A.
No, I didn't hear them, no.
13
Q.
When did you first read the preliminary injunction in this
14
case?
15
A.
My best recollection of reading it was May of 2013.
16
Q.
Did someone give it to you?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Who?
19
A.
I don't recall who it came from.
20
Q.
21
A.
I remember being on scene of one of them and it was loud
I don't remember if I
So as far as the common practice of these interdictions,
14:08:40
OF
TH
E
FO
14:08:10
ND
Did you read it?
14:09:01
Yes.
Q.
Did you understand it?
A.
I thought I did.
24
Q.
So let's explore that a moment.
25
your understanding of the preliminary injunction different than
FR
23
14:07:58
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
As you sit here now, is

14:09:15
403
when you read it in May 2013?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
was your understanding of what the preliminary injunction
stated?
A.
the May 2013 injunction.
Q.
injunction?
GB
OW
.C
OM
So let's go back to when you first read it.
What
I think I might be confusing the preliminary injunction for
Okay.
So let's go back.
Did you ever read the preliminary
A.
I did.
11
Q.
When?
12
A.
I don't recall the date.
13
with it.
14
Q.
From whom?
15
A.
I don't recall who it is now.
16
Q.
17
A.
Like I said, I thought I did.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
to be back when you first read the preliminary injunction?
20
A.
21
charges and then turn them over to ICE or Border Patrol.
14:09:47
OF
TH
E
I know I did receive an e-mail
ND
So what's different now versus what you believed it
Now it's clear that you can't detain anybody without state
14:10:05
IE
Q.
When you had that conversation with Sheriff Arpaio that was
discussed during your -- during your direct examination, at
FR
23
14:09:40
FO
10
22
14:09:28
24
that time you believed that it was still appropriate that you
25
could detain someone and turn them over to ICE or Border
14:10:32
Patrol, correct?
MR. SEGURA:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Objection, Your Honor, leading.
Lieutenant --
wait until I answer.

THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
10
question.
11
rephrase?
Sorry, sir.
Can I ask a question while you're thinking of your
MS. IAFRATE:
13
THE COURT:
Sure.
TH
E
To the best of your recollection, when did
THE WITNESS:
It was towards -- I think it was the
14:10:58
OF
latter part of 2012.
17
THE COURT:
Thank you.
BY MS. IAFRATE:
19
Q.
20
what the discussion was about.
21
A.
18
ND
During that conversation there was discussion -- tell me
I'm sorry.
14:11:18
Can you restate that again?
IE
Q.
The conversation that the judge and I have been discussing
with you, with Sheriff Arpaio that you testified to on direct,
FR
23
14:10:47
that conversation with Sheriff Arpaio occur?
15
22
14:10:40
I am going to ask you to rephrase the
12
16
Oh, I'm sorry.
-- when there's an objection, you gotta
14
Yes, ma'am.
GB
OW
.C
OM
FO
404
24
do you recall that conversation?
25
A.
Yes.
14:11:29
Q.
Okay.
There was some conversation with the sheriff
regarding what?
A.
briefing him for something.
would be up there to talk to the sheriff was to brief him on
something.
the sheriff just came up with the question.
Q.
sheriff were when CEU investigations were almost complete,
GB
OW
.C
OM
405
I don't recall what the conversation was.
We were up there
That would be the only time I
So we were up there briefing him on something and
You said that the only briefings that you did for the
correct?
11
A.
Yes, ma'am.
12
Q.
CEU is different than interdictions, correct?
13
A.
Yes, ma'am.
14
Q.
So did this conversation regarding turning people over to
15
ICE, did it deal with CEU?
16
A.
It may have; I don't recall.
17
Q.
This conversation that you recall with the sheriff where he
18
posed the question to you and then said that you would turn
19
people over to Border Patrol, do you recall that?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
ND
OF
14:12:21
Yes, ma'am.
14:12:49
IE
At that time you believed that was valid, despite the
preliminary injunction, correct?

A.
FR
23
14:12:08
FO
10
22
14:11:43
I had no other -- I had no reason to believe that what we
24
were doing was wrong, no.
25
Q.
The spreadsheets, 2007, 2008, and 2009, that's not the
14:13:04
complete document that was generated by your unit, correct?
A.
We haven't done a 2007, '8, and '9.
Q.
No, excuse me.
A.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Q.
Exhibit No. 2007, 2008, 2009.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Those are the exhibit numbers.
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
because I confused you.
BY MS. IAFRATE:
That's why you're confused, Lieutenant,

Sorry.
Q.
So Exhibit 207, 208, and 209.
11
A.
Okay.
12
Q.
Now I've forced you to do it.
13
A.
Okay.
14
have --
15
Q.
Okay, Lieutenant.
16
A.
Okay.
17
Q.
We don't even need to go to the document.
It's 207, 208, and 209.
TH
E
I have a 2000- -- or 207.
I have a 207.
I don't
ND
Exhibit 2007, correct?

THE COURT:
2- --
14:14:29
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
207.
A.
Yes, ma'am.
24
Q.
That's not the complete database that was generated by your
25
unit, was it?
FR
23
14:14:15
OF
Just listen to my question.
IE
22
I have 2007, and I've got a big one of --
You were shown a sheet with information on it,
20
21
14:13:50
FO
10
19
14:13:39
I think you're talking 207, 208, 209.
18
406
14:14:35
407
A.
Correct, ma'am.
Q.
There are more documents that are associated with that face
sheet, correct?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
It's all the supporting documents, correct?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
You didn't create the database, did you?
A.
No, ma'am.
Q.
You don't know how it was compiled, do you?
10
A.
Only roughly.
11
Q.
Did you participate in its creation?
12
A.
No, ma'am.
14
creation?
THE WITNESS:
16
THE COURT:
17
THE WITNESS:
18
THE COURT:
OF
Did you oversee its creation?

Yes, sir.
You believe it's accurate to the extent
ND
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
14:15:27
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
What did you do to determine whether it was accurate or
not?
FR
23
14:15:18
IE
22
Yes, sir.
that we've seen summaries here today?
20
21
14:15:00
Let me ask, Lieutenant, did you direct its
15
19
14:14:44
FO
THE COURT:
TH
E
13
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
I spoke with the two sergeants.
There's one that's heading
25
up that project, and then the one that is supporting him, and I
14:15:39
408
talked to them and asked them what steps they'd gone through to
complete -- to compile the information.
I've asked --
basically that, and we talked about it.
We stayed in touch and
talked about what's in there, how do we know what's in there?
Where are we getting our information?
we doing?
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
10
Q.
He's a smart guy?
11
A.
I believe so.
12
Q.
What he does?
13
A.
Yes, ma'am.
14
Q.
And he created this as a result of the constant requests
15
for documents, correct?
16
A.
Yes, ma'am.
17
Q.
In the Melendres case, back in 2012 and before, was your
18
unit ever asked to gather videotapes?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
14:16:00
14:16:21
OF
TH
E
FO
14:16:10
ND
Before when, now?
Q.
2012.
14:16:39
Not that I am aware of.

Well, I'm asking you:
Were you ever asked to gather
videotapes prior to 2012 regarding the Melendres matter?
FR
23
What kind of checks are
The person that created this database is Sergeant Waylon,
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
No, ma'am.
25
Q.
Were you asked to gather documents prior to 2012 regarding
14:16:56
the Melendres matter?
A.
Not that I recall.
Q.
The search that was done recently of your computer, that
was done just a few weeks ago, correct?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
Was that the first time that anyone asked you to look at
your e-mails as it relates to Melendres?
A.
I believe so, yes, ma'am.
Q.
When the group from CCID and my office went out to your
GB
OW
.C
OM
409
office to do the search of your computer, were you reading the
11
e-mails as you were gathering them?
12
A.
Not specifically, no, ma'am.
13
Q.
You weren't reading them for substance?
14
A.
Some of them I would bring them up, glance at it and say,
15
yes, this is a shift summary, this will go.
16
cursory, very, very quick.
17
Q.
18
saying that, you were saying -- you were pulling it up and then
19
saying "this will go."
20
to manipulate your e-mails when you were going through them.
21
A.
TH
E
OF
14:17:57
ND
Explain with words what you were doing

14:18:14
One of the CID members that showed up, he had given a
memory jump drive, so that was plugged in.
And he had set up a
way to where you could drag and click the e-mails over.
FR
23
It was very, very
So you were doing something with your fingers as you were
IE
22
14:17:38
FO
10
14:17:21
24
Q.
And is that what you were doing?
25
A.
Yes, ma'am.
14:18:34
410
Q.
And then that jump drive was given to someone from CCID?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
You weren't given a copy of what was on that jump drive,
were you?
A.
No, ma'am.
Q.
Did you ever have a meeting with Chief Sands regarding
training?
A.
I don't recall a meeting.
Q.
Did you ever attend informal training done by Chief Palmer
GB
OW
.C
OM
for the squads?
11
A.
No, ma'am.
12
Q.
Do you know, did that actually occur?
13
A.
Pardon me?
14
Q.
Did that occur?
15
A.
Not that I know of.
16
Q.
You testified on direct that you had never -- while you
17
were in HSU, you never heard of the LEAR policy, correct?
18
A.
Yes, ma'am.
19
Q.
While you were at HSU, or any time before or after that,
20
were you ever instructed to delete videos from your group?
21
A.
TH
E
OF
ND
14:20:40
No, ma'am.
Q.
Were you ever told to delete e-mails from your group?
A.
No, ma'am.
24
Q.
Were you ever instructed to retain videos while in HSU?
25
A.
Yes, ma'am.
FR
23
14:19:54
IE
22
14:19:45
FO
10
14:18:44
14:20:54
Q.
Were you told to retain e-mails while you were in HSU?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
Did you ever directly supervise Deputy Armendariz?
A.
No, ma'am.
Q.
Did you ever watch him do any interdictions?
A.
Not that I recall.
Q.
Did you ever review any videos of his stops?
A.
Yes, ma'am.
MS. IAFRATE:
May I have just a moment?
11
BY MS. IAFRATE:
12
Q.
13
as Exhibit 118, and it was shown to you on direct examination.
TH
E
Do you recall generating that memorandum?

A.
Yes, ma'am.
16
Q.
Could you go up.
14:22:46
OF
15
17
This is a memo from you to Chief Trombi, correct?

A.
Yes, ma'am.
19
Q.
And in the first paragraph it talks about citizen
20
complaints, correct?
21
A.
ND
18
14:23:02
If you give me a second I'll review it.
IE
FR
23
14:21:53
Lieutenant Jakowinicz, I'm showing you what is in evidence
14
22
14:21:22
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
411
THE WITNESS:
24
BY MS. IAFRATE:
25
Q.
Yes, ma'am.
And this is a memorandum that you generated?
14:23:28
412
A.
Yes, ma'am.
Q.
You yourself couldn't unilaterally transfer Deputy
Armendariz, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
But in your memorandum to Chief Trombi, you indicate that
although there are -- many contacts are recorded and obviously
policy violations of excessive force, abusive language, or
theft are not observed.
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
What did you mean by that?
The videos that I had seen, it didn't -- we didn't see any
of those things.
11
saw.
12
Q.
13
make the determination to transfer Deputy Armendariz, correct?
14
A.
Yes, ma'am.
15
Q.
And in that you indicate that you did not observe the
16
policy violations that were complained of, correct?
17
A.
TH
E
OF
Correct.
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
Mr. Walker.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
14:24:50
IE
BY MR. WALKER:
Q.
A.
24
Q.
My name's Richard Walker.
25
Maricopa County government embodied by the board of
FR
23
14:24:16
ND
19
22
14:24:05
So you are generating an e-mail to the person that could
18
21
There weren't clear policy violations that we
FO
10
20
14:23:39
I represent that portion of the

14:25:00
413
supervisors, the county manager, and the appointed officers who
work under their supervision.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I want to ask you a little more about the
spreadsheets, Exhibits 207, 208, and 209.
you about the creation of the database.
specifically about the spreadsheets.
Ms. Iafrate asked
I want to ask you
Do you know who created those spreadsheets, the ones
that you were asked about and looked at during your testimony
on direct and Ms. Iafrate's examination?

A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And who was that?
12
A.
Sergeant Demetrius Waylon Gonzalez.
13
Q.
And you know that he produced those how?
14
A.
We would -- we would talk about it.
15
would show me the progress.
16
Q.
17
from which these spreadsheets were created, did you enter any
18
of that information yourself?
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
21
entered?
TH
E
14:25:56
OF
The information that was entered into the database
A.
Yes.
14:26:11
Not all of it, but yes, I was there when -- as people
worked on it.
FR
23
Go to the computer; he
Were you physically present when the information was
IE
22
Okay.
14:25:39
FO
10
ND
14:25:21
They worked long, long hours on it.
24
Q.
Well, I don't mean just present in the building, but were
25
you actually looking over their shoulders as they were entering
14:26:29
414
data?
A.
stuff in before.
Q.
In the -- in this database?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Would you take a look at Exhibit 207.
that up there?
A.
2011 year?
Q.
No, Exhibit 207.
10
A.
Right, I have that.
11
Q.
Yes.
12
A.
I've got two.
13
Q.
And you believe that to be a spreadsheet that was created
14
by Sergeant Waylon, right?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
And the judge asked you some questions about your
17
impressions of the accuracy in the information in Exhibits 207,
18
208, and 209.
FO
14:27:05
14:27:19
OF
TH
E
I've got a small and a large.
Do you remember that?
A.
21
Q.
Yes, sir.
14:27:35
As you sit here today, are you personally able, based on
IE
20
your personal knowledge, to vouch for the accuracy of the

numbers in those spreadsheets?
FR
23
I'm just confirming 2011 is the year.
Sorry.
14:26:41
Do you still have
ND
19
22
Yes.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I've been seated next to Sergeant Waylon when he's put
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
I want to ask you now, changing gears a little bit, about
14:27:45
415
the interdictions that you said you participated in.
And if I
understood you correctly, there were just a few of them, and it
was at the beginning of your tenure in HSU, is that right?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
When did you participate in interdictions?
A.
Oh, you're talking about myself?
Yes, you're correct.
there a few times with the -- with the squads to see how they
did things.
GB
OW
.C
OM
When was I out there?
It was at the beginning.
I went out
Q.
What exactly is "a few times"?
11
A.
Five, six times, probably.
12
Q.
Sorry?
13
A.
Five or six times, maybe.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
arrived at HSU?
16
A.
Around that time, yes, sir.
17
Q.
In any of those interdictions were you in a position to
18
witness personally whether people were identified as being
19
potentially in the country illegally, but as to whom there was
20
no probable cause for -- to believe that they'd been involved
21
in criminal activity?
24
25
TH
E
And that was in April-May 2012, shortly after you
OF
14:28:39
ND
IE
A.
I'm sorry, could you clarify?
Q.
Sorry.
FR
23
14:28:20
FO
10
22
14:28:05
14:29:01
It was a little convoluted.
The interdictions that you personally witnessed, were
you in a position in any of those interdictions to personally
14:29:16
416
see/hear that people in those interdictions -- there were
people in those interdictions who were identified as to whom
there was probable cause that they'd been involved in criminal
activity?
A.
asking.
Q.
to ICE or Border Patrol who were apprehended, but as to whom
there was not probable cause to believe they had been involved
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'm still not -- I'm still not understanding what you're
We've been -- we've been talking about people who were sent
in criminal activity or were involved in criminal activity, but
11
were then sent to ICE or Border Patrol because they were
12
suspected as being in the country illegally.

Do you understand?
TH
E
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
you personally see that happen?
17
A.
18
watch what was going on.
19
think of any where it wasn't Spanish being spoken, and I don't
20
speak Spanish, so the context of what was being spoken I
21
wouldn't understand.
OF
In the interdictions you personally witnessed, did
14:30:14
When I was there I was basically there as a supervisor to

I can't
ND
I wouldn't know the context.
14:30:39
IE
Q.
So do you have that personal knowledge whether any of the
individuals apprehended in the interdictions you witnessed were
FR
23
14:29:59
FO
10
22
14:29:40
24
sent on to ICE or CBP because they had not been identified as
25
people involved in criminal activity?
14:31:00
A.
If I'm understanding your question correctly, yeah, people
would end up going to ICE if we didn't have state charges.
Q.
you personally witnessed.
A.
Oh, I don't --
Q.
Did that happen in any of those instances?
A.
I don't recall specifically to those instances.
Okay.
But I'm asking specifically about the interdictions
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:

Thank you.
Mr. Como.
11
13
Q.
14
A.
15
Q.
Ms. Iafrate asked you whether you ever attended any
16
informal briefing put on by Sergeant Palmer about the Court's
17
order.
TH
E
BY MR. COMO:
OF
Do you recall that question?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
shortly after the Court issued its order in December 2011.
ND
25
IE
Sergeant Palmer testified that he provided that briefing
14:31:52
You weren't at HSU at that time, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Correct?
FR
24
14:31:42
18
23
14:31:26
CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
22
14:31:15
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
417
Correct, sir.
Okay.
I'd like to take you back to Exhibit 156, please.
14:32:13
believe you have that one.
This is the e-mail chain that ends with the e-mail
GB
OW
.C
OM
418
dated March 27, 2012, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Let's go back to the second page of that exhibit, please.
Middle of the page, there's the e-mail from Lieutenant Sousa to
Tim Casey on which you were copied dated January 24, 2012?
A.
January 24th, 2012, from Sousa -- or from Sousa to Casey?
Q.
Yes.
10
A.
Yes, sir, I see it.
11
Q.
All right.
12
were still in training, right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
this document we have, it appears to be part of an e-mail
16
string that is attached to this March 27 e-mail, would you
17
agree?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
first page now -- you were copied on that e-mail from
21
Lieutenant Sousa to -- to Sergeant Palmer, correct?
14:33:06
TH
E
And that's the one that you received while you
Now, that appears to be from this e-mail -- from
OF
14:33:16
It's all part of one e-mail string?
ND
So on March 27, 2012 -- and we can go back to the
A.
Yes.
Q.
And this -- when you received that e-mail would have been
FR
23
IE
22
14:32:41
FO
14:33:35
Yes.
24
shortly before you took over the HSU unit?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
14:33:54
419
Q.
that there was some unfinished business regarding the training
scenarios?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And if you had scrolled down to the prior e-mails, you
would see that that unfinished business had been pending for
approximately two months?
you were copied on, January 24.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Let me just -- on January 24, Lieutenant Sousa asked Tim
11
Casey to weigh in on the scenarios, right?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
And then on March 27, Lieutenant Sousa's reporting to
14
Sergeant Palmer, We still haven't heard from Tim Casey,
15
essentially, right?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
When you took over HSU, did you do anything to move along
18
this unfinished business that you had inherited?
19
A.
20
asking about it.
21
Q.
Just after the prior e-mail where
14:34:43
OF
TH
E
FO
14:34:22
ND
14:34:57
Do you remember what he said?
A.
It was pretty simple.
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
14:34:03
I remember speaking with Lieutenant Sousa about this,
IE
22
And if you read this at the time, you would have recognized
GB
OW
.C
OM
It was it's still with the lawyers.
Did you direct -- once you took over HSU, did you
24
direct Sergeant Palmer to follow up with Mr. Casey?
25
A.
Not that I recall.
14:35:14
Jakowinicz - Redirect, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
420
Q.
Did you personally follow up with Mr. Casey?
A.
I don't -- reference this scenario, I --
Q.
Yes, that's what I'm referring to, uh-huh.
A.
Not that I recall.
Q.
Now, on this March 27 e-mail, Chief Sands is not copied on
that, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
So unless somebody that was copied on it told him, he would
have no way of knowing about this e-mail or what the status
GB
OW
.C
OM
was, would you agree?
11
A.
Correct, sir.
12
Q.
All right.
13
we seem to have a log jam here with the lawyers.
14
us out?
15
A.
Thank you.
Chief,
Can you help
14:36:01
That's all the questions I have.
Thank you.
ND
Redirect?
20
MR. SEGURA:
A few questions, Your Honor.
14:36:09
IE
21
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
FR
23
Okay.
THE COURT:
19
22
TH
E
MR. COMO:
18
14:35:46
Can you get us past this?
OF
17
You did not go to Chief Sands and say:
I don't recall.
16
FO
10
14:35:30
After an interdiction event when a potential load vehicle
24
is stopped, do the deputies involved in that stop produce any
25
documentation of it?
14:36:28
A.
They would write a report.
Q.
Is that called an incident report?
A.
Or a departmental report, yeah.
Q.
Oh, a departmental report?
A.
Or an incident report, yeah, the name.
Q.
Those are interchangeable?
A.
I think we changed the name at one point.
departmental reports, then it became incident reports.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
421
Okay.
It was
And those departmental reports include the reason for the
stop?
11
A.
They should, yes.
12
Q.
And it includes what occurred after the vehicle was
13
stopped?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
And it includes whether there was probable cause -- whether
16
probable cause was obtained to arrest individuals, is that
17
correct?
18
A.
Correct, it would include everything, the entire --
19
Q.
And while you were at HSU you reviewed these reports,
20
correct?
21
A.
ND
TH
E
OF
14:37:06
That was the sergeant's job.
IE
Not generally.
14:37:34
Q.
But you have reviewed these reports, correct?
A.
I would look at them from time to time.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
Exhibits 207, 208, and 209, those were spreadsheets only for
FR
23
14:36:57
FO
10
22
14:36:38
The spreadsheets that I showed you earlier,

14:37:51
422
the human smuggling unit, not the criminal employment squad, is
that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
So those spreadsheets would not include individuals who
were turned over to ICE by the criminal employment squad,
correct?
A.
Correct, sir.
Q.
Okay.
retain e-mails, is that correct?
GB
OW
.C
OM
Ms. Iafrate asked you if you were instructed to
A.
Correct, sir.
11
Q.
But the only e-mails you were instructed to retain were
12
those relating to operational matters, is that correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And you also told Ms. Iafrate that you were instructed to
15
retain videos, is that correct?
16
A.
Clarify that?
17
Q.
I believe Ms. Iafrate asked you if you were instructed to
18
retain videos, and you said yes.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
TH
E
14:38:43
OF
I was told to -- to retain videos?
ND
Right, yeah, the division did, we -- the division did.

When were you given that instruction?
IE
At the beginning.
14:39:05
When I first started, I think
Lieutenant Sousa made me aware of that.

Q.
FR
23
14:38:27
FO
10
22
14:38:08
Okay.
And did you ever make -- did you ever make any
24
recordings while you were with HSU?
25
A.
No, sir.
14:39:34
Jakowinicz-Exam by Court, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
423
Q.
Mr. Walker asked you if you could -- this is back to the
spreadsheets, Exhibit 207 to 209 -- if you could personally
vouch for the information in the spreadsheet for the accuracy
of the numbers, and you said no, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
You supervised the compilation of that spreadsheet, is that
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of that
spreadsheet?
11
A.
No, sir.
MR. SEGURA:
13
THE COURT:
14
No further questions.
I have just a few follow-up I want to make
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
17
Q.
18
interdiction unit?
19
A.
20
time period.
21
Q.
14:40:19
OF
16
So Exhibits 207, 208, and 209 are only compilations of the
ND
Yes, sir, anybody assigned to human smuggling during that

14:40:39
IE
And so that you had human smuggling and you had a criminal
employment unit?
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
And you supervised both of those units.
25
A.
Yes, sir.
FR
23
14:40:10
sure I understand, Lieutenant.
15
22
Thank you.
TH
E
12
14:39:58
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
14:40:50
424
Q.
One of the categories on Exhibits 207, 208, and 209 said
something about ICE, delivery to ICE.
here that at a certain point, and I don't know if they did it
consistently, ICE refused to take these folks, and then the
Sheriff's Office delivered them to Customs and Border Patrol in
Casa Grande.
GB
OW
.C
OM
But we've had testimony
Would that be consistent with your experience?

A.
Yes, Your Honor.
Q.
Do you know where ICE offices are in Maricopa County?
10
A.
I couldn't tell you the street, but I know it's downtown.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
deliveries were made to -- or the Sheriff's Office took people
13
downtown to ICE and delivered them there?
14
A.
15
would come to our location; sometimes we would meet them at a
16
preassigned spot; sometimes we would take them all the way down
17
to ICE.
18
Q.
19
Border Patrol, you would tend to drive them to Customs and
20
Border Patrol.
21
A.
TH
E
So the deliveries -- when ICE took people, the
Sometimes they
14:41:50
OF
It could have been a couple different ways.
And when you delivered them to Customs and
ND
All right.
I think more or less
IE
Or meet at a prearranged place, yeah.
14:42:05
we would meet at a prearranged place because the -- the Border

Patrol station was -- was quite far.
FR
23
14:41:29
FO
22
14:41:12
24
Q.
Now, was there any -- when -- are you familiar with the
25
operations of the criminal employment unit?
14:42:20
425
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And would you similarly arrest people in the criminal
employment unit that you had no state charge for?
A.
We wouldn't arrest them.
Q.
But you would hold them.
A.
If after speaking with ICE or Border Patrol they said yes,
after they did an interview telephonically with that
individual, the -- they would give us the phone back, and then
the federal agent would tell us:
GB
OW
.C
OM
Please hold on to that
person.
We want to take custody of that person.
11
Q.
So you detained them.
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
And then you delivered custody either to CBP or to ICE?
14
A.
Yes, Your Honor.
15
Q.
And when you delivered custody to CBP, did you do that in a
16
motor vehicle?
17
A.
If we delivered them, yes.
18
Q.
Or if you met somebody halfway?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
TH
E
OF
14:42:58
ND
Or partway.
14:43:09
IE
Yes, Your Honor.
Q.
And when ICE came and got them, was it in a motor vehicle?
A.
To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
24
Q.
Were the persons detained while they were in that motor
25
vehicle?
FR
23
14:42:50
FO
10
22
14:42:34
They were not free to go?
14:43:23
A.
Correct, sir.
Q.
And would you use the public roadways of Maricopa County
when you were transporting such persons?
A.
Yes, Your Honor.
Q.
And did you say that you have done a -- in addition to
Exhibits 207, 208, and 209, you've done a compilation of the
number of people that you delivered to -- or that you delivered
or ICE or CBP picked up from you as a result of the criminal
employment unit's operations?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Yes, Your Honor.
11
Q.
And was that part of the same materials that constitute
12
part of 207, 208, and 209?
13
A.
No, sir, it's separate.
14
Q.
It's a separate compilation?
15
A.
Yes, Your Honor.
TH
E
THE COURT:
17
18
THE COURT:
S
mine?
14:44:29
MR. SEGURA:
FR
23
That's all I have.
Mr. Segura, do you have any more questions based on
IE
22
One moment, please.
ND
19
21
14:44:12
OF
16
20
14:44:00
FO
10
14:43:30
THE COURT:
I do not, Your Honor.

Ms. Iafrate?
MS. IAFRATE:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. COMO:
No, Your Honor.
Mr. Como?
Nothing, Your Honor.
14:44:34
THE COURT:
Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
Nothing further, Your Honor.

All right.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I intend to use all of our
time until 5 o'clock today.
for 15 minutes, or do you want to start with the next witness?
6
7
MR. SEGURA:
I don't need 15 minutes, but I would
THE COURT:
everybody a break.
All right.
Well, we're going to give
And somebody might want 15 minutes, so
we're going to give you 15 minutes.
11
3 o'clock.
We'll be back at
(Recess taken.)
13
THE CLERK:
All rise, please.
15
THE COURT:
Please be seated.
16
Before we get going again, and Ms. Iafrate, before I
TH
E
12
Court is now in
OF
session.
15:03:40
17
forget, I've reviewed -- initially we were going to have those
18
MCSO internal investigations done in early March.
19
indicated that you, in early March, that you needed an
20
extension until April 13.
21
don't have those investigations completed.
ND
You
April 13 has come and gone.
We
15:03:59
Obviously, in setting the supplemental hearing we will
want to have them completed well enough in time to do the
FR
23
IE
22
14:44:54
FO
10
14
14:44:42
appreciate a slight break, if that's --
8
9
Do you want to take a break now
24
evaluations I discussed.
I would request in the next day or
25
so, if you can, you provide me with an indication of when those
15:04:16
Trowbridge - Direct, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
428
investigations will be completed.
and 543, I mean the other investigations that arose from the
Armendariz and/or Cisco Perez and related allegations that are
related to the subject matter of this lawsuit.
Next witness, Mr. Segura.
MR. SEGURA:
THE CLERK:
10
Plaintiffs call Sergeant Mike Trowbridge.

Please state your full name for the
record, and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS:
Michael, last name's Trowbridge,
T-r-o-w, and then bridge, b-r-i-d-g-e.
11
(Michael Trowbridge was duly sworn as a witness.)
12
THE COURT:
13
MR. SEGURA:
Thank you.
MICHAEL TROWBRIDGE
16
17
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SEGURA:
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
18
ND
Good afternoon, Sergeant Trowbridge.

Good afternoon.
15:05:42
IE
Sergeant, when did you join MCSO?
A.
In August of 2003 -- or 2004.
Q.
And at some point you were promoted to sergeant, is that
FR
23
15:05:38
OF
15
22
15:05:05
You may proceed, Mr. Segura.
TH
E
14
15:04:37
FO
And I don't just mean 542
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
correct?
25
A.
Correct, in February of 2008.
15:05:54
429
Q.
And what was your position when you became sergeant?
A.
I was a patrol sergeant in District 2, which is the
southwest valley, for three years.
Q.
And you did that until you joined HSU?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And when did you join HSU?
A.
March of 2011.
Q.
And Lieutenant Sousa called you and asked you to join HSU,
is that correct?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
And what was your -- what was your position within HSU?
12
A.
I was one of the interdiction sergeants.
13
Q.
So you supervised deputies involved in interdiction?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
And that means you, your squad, would be responsible for
16
identifying load vehicles, or vehicles involved in human
17
smuggling?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And you were with HSU until March of 2013, is that right?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
OF
ND
Correct.
15:07:01
During interdiction enforcement while you were at HSU, as I
said, the target was to identify load vehicles, right?

A.
Yes.
24
Q.
And if you believed there was a potential load vehicle, the
25
practice was to tail the vehicle until you could develop
FR
23
15:06:44
IE
22
15:06:25
FO
10
15:06:11
15:07:14
430
probable cause of a traffic violation, or something like that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Some justification to pull the car over?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And once the vehicle was stopped, HSU members would try to
determine if the driver or passengers in the vehicle were
involved in human smuggling, is that right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And if there were -- and the driver's questioned first, is
GB
OW
.C
OM
that right?
11
A.
Most of the time, yes.
12
Q.
And what questions are those -- what questions would the
13
driver be asked to determine if there may be human smuggling?
14
A.
15
luggage in the vehicle, why wasn't there luggage, and then if
16
they knew the names of their passengers.
17
Q.
18
smuggling, would you then question the passengers?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
TH
E
OF
15:07:59
ND
Yes.
And if after questioning the driver you suspected human
And what questions would you ask the passengers?
15:08:11
If they knew who was driving the vehicle and where they
were trying to go throughout the United States.

Q.
FR
23
They'd usually be asked where they were going, if there was
IE
22
15:07:37
FO
10
15:07:23
And would you ask the passengers if they paid money to be
24
transported or to get into the United States?
25
A.
Yes.
15:08:33
Q.
to whether they paid money or knew the driver, but not all the
passengers, right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And so for the passengers who you or other HSU members in
that situation have not questioned about their involvement in
human smuggling, those would typically be brought back to
Enforcement Support to be questioned there, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
the scene, but transported to Enforcement Support, at that
12
point, when they're being transported, you would not have
13
specific information as to whether those specific passengers
14
were involved in human smuggling, right?
15
A.
No, not yet.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
to those passengers, that would be done once they were at
18
Enforcement Support, correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
questioned on the scene back to Enforcement Support, that
15:08:50
15:09:04
TH
E
FO
And for those passengers who were not questioned on
15:09:28
OF
And that -- and if probable cause were developed as
ND
Yes.
15:09:42
IE
And this practice of bringing passengers who were not
continued while you were at HSU, correct?

A.
Yes.
24
Q.
If passengers were taken back to Enforcement Support to be
25
questioned there, how long would it take before they're
FR
23
Sometimes you would only question some passengers as
GB
OW
.C
OM
22
Okay.
431
15:10:04
432
questioned at Enforcement Support?
A.
but usually within the hour.
Q.
12 passengers, how long would that take?
A.
there, make sure they didn't have any medical conditions, call
Lower Buckeye jail, get them food, and then eventually the
detectives would start going in one by one and getting them for
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
It could vary, depending on how many passengers there are,
And if there's a -- a large load vehicle with 10 or
Could take a little bit longer.
We'd usually get back
the interviews.
11
Q.
That could take several hours?
12
A.
It could.
13
Q.
Are you familiar what's -- with what's referred to as the
14
LEAR policy?
15
A.
A little bit, yes.
16
Q.
And what do you understand that policy to be?
17
A.
That if deputies out in patrol came in contact with
18
somebody they suspected that was illegal in the country, to
19
detain them and either call an HSU supervisor or somebody at
20
the time who was 287(g) certified.
21
Q.
TH
E
ND
OF
15:10:44
15:11:00
And was that policy in effect while you were at HSU?
IE
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
And so if there were no probable cause or state charges on
FR
23
15:10:36
FO
10
22
15:10:21
24
which to hold an individual contacted in a car, in a vehicle,
25
but those individuals were -- that individual was believed to
15:11:22
433
be undocumented, that individual would be held and ICE would be
called, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
No.
Q.
Okay.
concern about holding people without probable cause of state
charges before they were turned over to ICE?
A.
Only the one time with Sergeant Palmer.
10
Q.
And what was that time?
11
A.
He had spoke to the sheriff on speakerphone about holding a
12
group of individuals.
13
Q.
14
a second.
15
And that policy never changed while you were at HSU?
Thank you.
We'll get to that in
Are you familiar with this Court's December 2011
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
And when did you first learn about that order?
19
A.
I believe it was either -- probably a week or two after it
20
came out.
21
Q.
15:12:07
ND
OF
order?
Okay.
15:12:22
And what was your understanding of the order?
IE
A.
That MCSO could no longer detain people based solely on
race, and the fact that they were presumed to be illegally in
FR
23
15:11:52
FO
We'll get to that.
16
22
15:11:36
While you were at HSU did you ever hear of any
TH
E
Okay.
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
the country.
25
Q.
Okay.
And that's if there were no state charges on which
15:12:37
434
they could be held?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Do you believe that others at HSU knew about this order?
A.
Within the unit?
Q.
By "HSU," I mean the Human Smuggling Division.
A.
Yes, they probably did.
Q.
And why do you believe that?
A.
I don't remember specific conversations, but it was talked
about.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Q.
11
right?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
There was concern that something may happen to the Human
14
Smuggling Division because of that order?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
You weren't sure whether human -- the Human Smuggling Unit
17
would still exist after that order, correct?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
But in fact there weren't changes -- there weren't any
20
changes with respect to how -- with respect to turning over
21
people to ICE while you were at HSU, correct?
15:13:07
TH
E
OF
15:13:22
ND
A.
No, other than ICE sometimes wouldn't accept the people.
Q.
Okay.
FR
23
IE
22
There was concern within HSU about the Court's order,
FO
10
15:12:51
And when ICE wouldn't accept the people, Border
24
Patrol would be called, correct?
25
A.
Yes.
15:13:42
15:14:04
435
Q.
So you -- you knew that the December 2011 order prohibited
holding people who couldn't be charged with a state crime on
the basis that they may be undocumented, is that correct?
A.
At the time, I'm not sure if I fully realized that, no.
Q.
I'd like to show you -- you were deposed in this case,
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And you swore to tell the truth during that deposition, is
that correct?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
page 88, lines 5 through 11.
14
So here's -- here's the relevant portion that I'd like

to ask you about.
15
So I asked you during your deposition that at the

time -- I said:
17
2011 order, you understood it to prohibit holding people who
18
couldn't be charged with a state crime?"
"So at the time you learned of the December
"Yeah, pretty much.
I mean,
ND
19
that they were illegal in the country without more didn't
21
constitute them being held."
IE
20
15:15:40
Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
But HSU continued holding people only on suspicion of their
25
immigration status, is that correct?
FR
23
15:15:24
OF
16
22
15:14:55
I'd like to show you Volume 1 of your deposition,
TH
E
13
15:14:28
FO
GB
OW
.C
OM
15:15:59
436
A.
Sometimes, yes.
Q.
And that was in violation of the Court's December 2011
order?
A.
Yes, it was.
Q.
You didn't raise this because you assumed that you would be
told by your command staff, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Your view was that it was the responsibility of command
staff to tell you about any changes in terms of policies or
GB
OW
.C
OM
practices, correct?
11
A.
Something major like that, yes.
12
Q.
You were at -- were you at two meetings about the Court's
13
December 2011 order?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And these were meetings at the sheriff's office, correct?
16
A.
Correct.
17
Q.
That was in the Wells Fargo building?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Were those held shortly after the order came out?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
OF
ND
I'm not sure when the -- exactly the date they were held.
15:17:05
But they were held while you were at HSU?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And during these meetings the Court's December 2011 order
FR
23
15:16:48
IE
22
15:16:26
FO
10
15:16:08
24
was discussed?
25
A.
I believe it was, yes.
15:17:17
437
Q.
Okay.
And the sheriff was present?
A.
Yes, he was.
Q.
Chief Deputy Sheridan and Chief Sands were there, too?
A.
Chief Sands was, and I don't know if the chief deputy was.
He might have been at one of them.
Q.
we were just viewing, lines 14 to 18.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'd like to show you page 85 of the deposition transcript
Actually, could we go to line 12 to 18.
So I asked and you said the sheriff was there, and

your answer was:
"He was."
11
And I asked:
12
And your response was:
"Who else from MCSO was there."

"And one of them, Sheridan --
and one of them, Sheridan was there.
14
Sands was there.
15
Lisa Allen, so any of the PIOs would be there."
TH
E
13
Lisa Allen.
I think in all of them,
And then anybody that worked for
You see that?

A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Was that testimony to the best of your recollection when
19
you gave it?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
Yes.
15:18:52
IE
Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Chief
Deputy Sheridan was there?

A.
I stated earlier that he was at one of them.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Yes.
FR
23
17
22
15:18:35
OF
16
15:18:18
FO
10
15:17:33
Counsel for MCSO was also present -15:19:08
438
Q.
-- during these meetings?
A.
Yes.
Q.
How long did each of these meetings last?
A.
Approximately probably an hour.
Q.
You would assume that people present in those meetings
would have known about the Court's December 2011 order,
correct?
A.
I'm not sure.
Q.
You said earlier that the December 2011 order was discussed
during these meetings?
11
A.
Yes, it was.
12
Q.
Do you recall -- and I think you may have referred to this
13
earlier -- an incident in much Sergeant Palmer and the sheriff
14
had a disagreement about holding people without state charges?
15
A.
16
conversation.
17
Q.
18
is that correct?
19
A.
Correct.
20
Q.
21
speakerphone?
TH
E
15:19:53
OF
I remember the situation, but I don't remember the exact
Sergeant Palmer and the sheriff were speaking on the phone,
And you were listening to that conversation on
A.
Correct.
Q.
The sheriff wanted individuals on which MCSO did not have
FR
23
15:19:39
15:20:05
IE
22
15:19:18
FO
10
ND
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
state charges to be held, is that correct?
25
A.
To the best of my knowledge, yes.
15:20:21
Q.
But Sergeant Palmer told the sheriff that -- that
MCSO could not continue holding them on that basis, is that
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And from what you heard, the sheriff wanted them held until
the media arrived, correct?
A.
effect.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Okay.
439
Again, I don't remember exactly.
It was something to that
And your understanding was so that the media could film
them coming out of the building?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Do you think the sheriff wanted to prove a point by that?
13
A.
I have no idea.
TH
E
14
MR. SEGURA:
Please show the witness page 106 of his
15
deposition, the entire page.
16
BY MR. SEGURA:
17
Q.
18
and on line 2 -- says zero two -- I asked:
19
sheriff wanted to -- to show you that ICE was refusing to take
20
people who were undocumented?"
24
25
OF
"Do you think the
ND
And your response:
been.
FR
23
15:21:57
During your deposition we were discussing this incident,
IE
22
15:20:49
FO
10
21
15:20:32
I don't know.
"I don't know.
It could have
Maybe."
Then I asked you:
"Why do you think maybe?"
point, I guess."
15:22:33
"Just to kind of prove a

15:22:45
440
Do you see that?

A.
Yes.
Q.
And I asked you:
A.
Yes.
Q.
Could you read me your answer on line 15?
A.
"That ICE is refusing to take the people.
kind of conveying they're not doing their job type thing."
Q.
Was your testimony accurate?
A.
Yes, it was.
10
Q.
HSU -- and I believe you referred to this, but HSU
11
operations were often the subject of media attention, correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
HSU operations and members of HSU would often end up being
14
shown in the media?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And the sheriff would also often be in the media after HSU
17
operations?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
Would you say he was in the spotlight because of it?
20
A.
21
Q.
See that?
15:22:50
That basically
15:23:45
ND
OF
TH
E
FO
15:23:26
I guess, yes.
15:23:57
There was a lot of media attention on those matters,
correct?
A.
Yes, there was.
24
Q.
And because of this, you believe the sheriff had a
25
particular interest in HSU operations, correct?
FR
23
"What point would that be?"
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
15:24:09
A.
Yes.
Q.
Because it would put him in front of camera, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
When you arrived at HSU, you were put in charge of
supervising Deputy Charley Armendariz, is that correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And you had some concerns about him, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
What were those concerns?
10
A.
The number of citizen complaints that he would generate
11
when we were doing interdiction.
12
Q.
And who told you about those complaints?
13
A.
When I first came to the unit I was briefed by Sergeant
14
Manny Madrid.
15
Q.
Was he Deputy Armendariz's prior supervisor?
16
A.
Yes, he was.
17
Q.
And while you were Deputy Armendariz's supervisor, he
18
continued to generate complaints, is that correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
22
15:24:53
OF
TH
E
FO
15:24:40
ND
Yes, he did.
And you raised those up, those -- strike that.
15:25:05
You kept track of those complaints, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And you raised your concerns with those above you, is that
FR
23
15:24:28
IE
21
GB
OW
.C
OM
441
24
right?
25
A.
Yes.
15:25:19
442
Q.
supervisor, is that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And then you later raised it again with Lieutenant
Jakowinicz when he became your supervisor, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
At some point Deputy Armendariz checked into a behavioral
health facility, is that correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And why was that?
11
A.
He attempted to kill himself.
12
Q.
Do you recall when that was?
13
A.
I don't.
14
Q.
But that was while you were at HSU?
15
A.
Yes, it was.
16
Q.
Do you recall how long he was in that facility?
17
A.
I believe three or four days.
18
Q.
And while you were there, the doctor called -- his doctor
19
called you to see if you could assure that he wouldn't have
20
access to any weapons or firearms, is that correct?
21
A.
FO
15:25:42
15:25:56
OF
TH
E
I'd have to look at my memos.
ND
Q.
15:26:13
Yes.
And you yourself had concerns with him returning to duty,
is that correct?
FR
23
15:25:31
IE
22
You first raised it when Lieutenant Sousa was your
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Because of the complaints he'd generated?
15:26:20
A.
been in that type of place.
Q.
But MCSO gave him a fit for duty package after that?
A.
I picked one up from personnel and delivered it to -- I
believe to him, that he had to have signed off by the doctor.
Q.
And what does a fit for duty packet mean?
A.
I'm not sure what it consists of.
Q.
Does that mean you're fit to return to duty as an officer?
A.
I would assume so, yes.
10
Q.
And he returned to normal duty, is that correct?
11
A.
Yes, he did.
12
Q.
Do you recall how long after he left the facility that he
13
returned?
14
A.
15
the packet and then deliver it back to personnel.
16
Q.
17
return, is that correct?
18
A.
19
confiscated his firearms at his personal residence, and at some
20
point he got them back, yes.
21
Q.
15:26:42
TH
E
FO
15:26:58
It was probably a few days, because I met him to pick up

15:27:11
OF
And you -- and he was -- he was given a firearm upon his
ND
I think when everything happened we actually had
15:27:27
IE
You wrote up a few memos about Deputy Armendariz, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
One was a memo to Lieutenant Jakowinicz summarizing your
FR
23
That and his mental stability, being that he'd just
GB
OW
.C
OM
22
Yes.
443
24
complaints --
25
A.
Yes.
15:27:46
Q.
444
-- is that correct?
Can we show the -- I'd like to show the witness
Exhibit 133, which has been introduced -- which has been
admitted into evidence.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Could we go to the first page after the cover?
And why don't we zoom in on that first part.
Is this the memorandum that we were just discussing in

which you summarized the complaints about --
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
-- Deputy Armendariz to Lieutenant Jakowinicz?
11
A.
Yes, it is.
12
Q.
And did Lieutenant Jakowinicz ask you to write this?
13
A.
I believe he did, yes.
14
Q.
What did you -- what was the purpose of your writing this
15
memorandum?
16
A.
17
since I was his supervisor.
18
Q.
19
you want to see happen to Deputy Armendariz?
20
A.
21
Q.
TH
E
OF
Just to summarize the number of citizen complaints he had
ND
And what did -- as Deputy Armendariz's supervisor, what did
Ultimately, he needed to probably leave the unit.
15:28:50
You also thought he should probably leave MCSO, is that
correct?
A.
Possibly.
24
Q.
Lieutenant Jakowinicz, you're aware that Lieutenant
25
Jakowinicz requested his transfer?
FR
23
15:28:33
IE
22
15:28:16
FO
15:28:01
15:29:09
445
A.
Yes.
Q.
And he made that request to Chief Trombi?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And what was the result of that request?
A.
It got denied.
up to his office, and then shortly after, Jakowinicz received a
text message saying to give him back his vehicle and put him
back in the unit.
Q.
Are you aware of the reasons why he was not transferred?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Anyone explain those reasons to you?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
Are you aware that HSU members displayed license plates on
14
the wall?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Did you have license plates --
17
A.
Yes, I did.
18
Q.
-- on the wall?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
15:29:16
15:29:47
OF
TH
E
FO
15:29:37
ND
Q.
Did all HSU detectives have license plates on the wall?
15:29:57
I believe so.
And these were plates typically taken from vehicles
involved in human smuggling?
FR
23
Chief Trombi had asked for Charley to come
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
These plates were kept as trophies, is that correct?
15:30:09
A.
Yes, I guess you could call them that.
Q.
Were these plates obvious to anyone who would visit the
office?
Let me rephrase that.
GB
OW
.C
OM
446
If anyone visited the office, would they see the

plates on the wall?
A.
Yes.
Q.
They were openly visible?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Chief Trombi visited the HSU office, is that correct?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
So Trombi would have seen them, correct?
12
A.
Most likely, yes.
13
Q.
And the same for Lieutenant Sousa?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
You were not instructed to search your own files prior to
16
your first deposition in this case, is that correct?
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
And included in that, you weren't instructed to search
19
through your e-mails before your first deposition, is that
20
correct?
21
A.
24
25
TH
E
OF
15:30:54
ND
Q.
15:31:20
No.
After your first deposition, Captain Skinner and
Ms. Iafrate searched your e-mails, is that correct?
FR
23
15:30:47
IE
22
15:30:35
FO
A.
Yes.
MR. SEGURA:
Could we show the -- I'd like to show the
15:31:56
witness Exhibit 189, which has been admitted into evidence.
Go to the next page, please.
GB
OW
.C
OM
447
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
Do you recognize this e-mail?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And this is an e-mail from you -- this is an e-mail to you.
You were cc'd on this e-mail from Sergeant Palmer, is that
correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And this is regarding Sergeant Palmer's training scenarios,
11
is that correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
You did not see this e-mail when you went through your
14
e-mail, is that correct?
15
A.
No, I did not.
16
Q.
And you do not know if it was deleted from your e-mails?
17
A.
No, I do not.
18
Q.
Were you under instructions to save e-mails regarding
19
operations?
20
A.
21
Q.
15:32:35
TH
E
ND
OF
15:32:48
15:33:01
Do you understand e-mails such as this to be related to
operations?
A.
FR
23
Yes.
IE
22
15:32:14
FO
It's more training.
24
more about training.
25
Q.
I wouldn't say it's operational, it's
So this e-mail shouldn't have been saved pursuant to your
15:33:16
instructions?
A.
448
MR. SEGURA:
GB
OW
.C
OM
It may have been, or may -- maybe not.
Can we show the witness deposition
Volume 2, page 202, lines 21 through 25.
BY MR. SEGURA:
Q.
under instructions to save e-mails related to operations, is
that correct?"
During your deposition I asked you:

And I asked you:
"I believe you were
"Correct."
"Would e-mails like Exhibit 178
11
constitute e-mails related to operations, in your
12
understanding?"
14
Could we put the lines -- the next -- page 203, lines
TH
E
13
1 and 2, up as well.
15
I will tell you that Exhibit 189, which we just
15:35:18
discussed, was previously Plaintiffs' Exhibit -- Plaintiffs'
17
Deposition Exhibit 178, so by Exhibit 178 we are referring to
18
Exhibit 189.
OF
16
I asked you:
"Would e-mails like Exhibit 178
ND
19
constitute e-mails related to operations, in your
21
understanding?"
24
25
"Yeah, it probably would.
15:35:37
saved almost anything connected with HSU."
FR
23
IE
20
22
15:34:46
FO
10
15:34:35
A.
Do you see that?

Yes.
15:35:48
Q.
Is your testimony accurate?
A.
Yes.
MR. SEGURA:
Thank you.
THE COURT:
Ms. Iafrate.
I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
Good afternoon.
A.
Good afternoon.
Q.
There was some discussion earlier by Sergeant Palmer
regarding informal training that he conducted, took upon
11
himself to brief the units at HSU.
12
15:36:41
Were you familiar with that?

A.
No.
14
Q.
Did you attend that?
15
A.
No, I don't believe so.
16
Q.
Do you know if it happened or not?
17
A.
I do not.
18
Q.
There was also some discussion just recently regarding
19
training scenarios.
20
you if you were familiar with that e-mail with the training
21
scenarios and you said yes, correct?
TH
E
13
It's Exhibit 156.
And plaintiffs asked

15:37:20
IE
ND
OF
15:36:57
A.
I'm familiar with the e-mail itself, yes.
Q.
When were you first made aware of those e-mail scenarios in
FR
23
15:36:37
FO
10
22
449
GB
OW
.C
OM
Trowbridge - Cross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
24
that e-mail?
25
A.
At my deposition.
15:37:34
450
Q.
You don't recall receiving that e-mail prior to your
deposition in this case?
A.
No.
Q.
And when you're talking about the deposition, you're
talking about the depositions for the contempt hearing,
correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Were you deposed regarding the original trial?
A.
No.
10
Q.
Did you attend the trial?
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
I want to talk to you briefly about HSU's knowledge of the
13
TH
E
14
16
A.
I believe a week or two after it came out.
17
Q.
Did you read it?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
15:38:20
ND
OF
injunction in this case?
Probably not fully, no.
15:38:25
IE
You know more now than you did then, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
While you were at HSU following the preliminary injunction
FR
23
15:37:55
When were you first made aware of the preliminary
15
22
15:37:47
FO
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
order, did HSU believe that it was following the Court's
25
orders?
15:38:40
A.
We believed we were doing our job,
and if we were doing something that was to violate the order
that we would be told by our command staff to knock it off and
not do that.
Q.
regarding an incident that -- the typical situation in HSU
where there would be some investigation on the roadside.
GB
OW
.C
OM
We believed we were.
451
So when there was discussion in your direct examination
Do you recall that?

A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And then if probable cause was not reached, then the group
11
would go back to the Enforcement Support building.
12
Do you recall that?

A.
Yes.
14
Q.
At the time the preliminary injunction was ordered, did you
15
realize that that, in and of itself, would be a violation of
16
the preliminary injunction?
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
Do you know that to be the case now?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
discussed with you, and that was a conversation that you
OF
ND
Let me switch to a more specific scenario that was
IE
15:39:37
15:39:50
overheard with Sergeant Palmer and Sheriff Arpaio.
FR
23
TH
E
13
22
15:39:21
FO
15:39:01
Do you recall that?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Do you recall the substance of the conversation?
15:40:02
452
A.
No.
Q.
Do you recall -- I believe that one of the things that you
said was that Sheriff Arpaio wanted people held at that
location, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And Palmer wanted what?
A.
To either -- he wanted just to get the people out of the
building, by contacting either Border Patrol or letting them
go.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Q.
11
correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And Sergeant Palmer violated the preliminary injunction by
14
doing that, correct?
15
A.
He would have, yes.
16
Q.
You know that now?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
That situation where Sergeant Palmer wanted to contact
19
Border Patrol and sent these individuals to Border Patrol and
20
the sheriff did not want him to do that, what ultimately
21
happened?
24
25
TH
E
OF
15:40:36
ND
A.
The people ultimately went to Border Patrol.
Q.
Speaking of these scenarios, we're calling these roadside
FR
23
15:40:28
15:40:59
IE
22
And ultimately they were transported to Border Patrol,
FO
10
15:40:18
investigations "interdictions."
Are you familiar with that term?
15:41:20
453
A.
Yes.
Q.
Who chose the locations of where the interdiction patrols
would occur?
A.
The interdiction sergeants, myself or Sergeant Palmer.
Q.
Did you have to get a blessing from the sheriff?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you brief the sheriff before you went out on these
interdictions of where they were going to be located?
A.
No.
10
Q.
Did you brief Chief Sheridan regarding where the
11
interdictions would occur?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
Did you brief Chief Sands where the interdictions occurred?
14
A.
No.
15
Q.
Did you brief Lieutenant Sousa where the interdictions
16
would occur?
17
A.
18
times, though.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
15:41:44
FO
TH
E
OF
15:41:31
15:41:51
He kind of knew where it would be most
ND
He was more hands on?

Yes.
15:42:10
I want to show you -- can I have the -- thank you.

You were deposed on March 30th, 2015, correct?
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Plaintiffs' counsel showed you a portion of your
25
deposition.
FR
23
I don't believe so.
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
I just want to go a little bit further.
15:42:40
454
This is the portion that plaintiffs' counsel read to

you:
"So at the time you learned of the December 2011 order,
you understood it to prohibit holding people who couldn't be
charged with a state crime?"
You answered:
GB
OW
.C
OM
"Yeah, pretty much.
I mean, that they
were illegal in the country without more didn't constitute them
being held."
10
"Did HSU continue holding people without PC of a state

crime on the basis that they are here illegally after the
December 2011 order?"
11
"Yes."
12
So far have I read that accurately?

A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Let's go on to the portion that wasn't read to you.

"And that was in violation of the December 2011
order?"
OF
16
TH
E
13
15
You answered:
18
"And having understood the order to prohibit that, why
22
You answered:
24
25
"At the time I guess it was because we
15:43:38
were trying to establish the probable cause for the state

crime, and then that was just general custom, that we would
contact ICE and then turn them over to ICE if -- if we didn't
FR
23
did you continue doing interdiction that way?"
ND
21
"It would have been, yes."
IE
20
15:43:22
17
19
15:43:13
FO
15:42:59
meet the state requirements."

"But did you understand that action to violate the
15:43:54
455
Court's order?"
Your answer was:
"I did not.
Did I read that accurately?
Not at the time, no."
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Yes.
Q.
At the time that you continued to do this activity were
you -- did you have an understanding that it violated the
A.
No.
Q.
So the portion that was read to you by plaintiffs' counsel
is based on your understanding of the preliminary injunction
11
now, correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
You didn't purposefully violate any court order, did you,
14
Sergeant?
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
Did anyone task you with training your unit regarding the
17
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
There was some discussion with plaintiffs' counsel
20
regarding Deputy Armendariz.
21
Do you recall that?
TH
E
OF
ND
A.
Yes.
Q.
You knew Deputy Armendariz, correct?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Was he a friend of yours?
FR
23
15:44:55
15:45:28
IE
22
15:44:15
FO
10
15:44:04
15:45:34
456
A.
He was one of my subordinates.
Q.
Did you ever go to his house?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did you ever go in his garage?
A.
I believe so, yes.
Q.
Did you ever go in his actual physical house?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was that before or after his death?
A.
It was before.
10
Q.
That was the first time that you entered any area of his
11
home?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
So prior to that time where there was going to be at least
14
to check welfare to see if he was okay, that was the first time
15
you entered his home?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Did you have the authority to deem Deputy Armendariz fit
18
for duty?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
It was when he attempted to kill himself.
15:46:14
ND
OF
TH
E
FO
15:45:58
Who would be responsible for that decision?
15:46:26
Probably the physician, and then once he signed off on it,
probably the command staff.

Q.
FR
23
15:45:45
IE
22
No.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Did a doctor sign off on Deputy Armendariz being fit for
24
duty?
25
A.
Yes.
15:46:40
457
Q.
When Deputy Armendariz returned to duty, did you take any
actions, any actions different as to your supervision of Deputy
Armendariz?
A.
than I would normally.
Q.
Why?
A.
Just because of what he had just gone through, to make sure
he was okay psychologically, I guess.
Q.
Not exactly.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I just kept a -- even a better eye on him
Did you see any concerning behavior when you kept a closer
eye on him?
11
A.
Nothing out of the ordinary, I guess.
12
Q.
There has been some discussion, Sergeant, regarding video
13
cameras in HSU.
14
HSU?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Did you save your videos?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Where did you save them?
19
A.
They were either saved on a disk and then given to
20
Officer Plata, or they were still on the glasses themselves.
21
Q.
15:47:52
ND
OF
TH
E
Did you use a video camera when you were in
15:48:00
IE
Was there ever a time that someone requested of you to
gather those videos?

A.
Yes.
24
Q.
When was that?
25
A.
I'm not sure the date.
FR
23
15:47:28
FO
10
22
15:47:18
There was a memo that came out from
15:48:16
458
Executive Chief Dave Trombi said to get all the stuff together,
basically.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Other than that e-mail -- well, let's do it this way.
In 2009, did anyone ask for you to gather videos

regarding HSU?
A.
No.
Q.
How about 2010?
A.
No.
Q.
2011?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
2012?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
2013?
14
A.
No.
15
Q.
How about gathering of shift summaries and DRs as they
16
relate to HSU?
17
A.
No, not until recently.
18
Q.
"Recently" meaning when?
19
A.
When you and Captain Skinner came to my office and went
20
through them.
21
Q.
24
25
TH
E
15:48:39
ND
OF
Were you ever asked to gather those?
15:49:05
Prior to the trial were you asked to gather those?
A.
No.
Q.
There was some discussion in your direct examination
FR
23
15:48:36
IE
22
15:48:32
FO
regarding license plates.

Do you recall that?
15:49:25
459
A.
Yes.
Q.
You had license plates, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
How were these license plates obtained?
A.
When a deputy was a case agent, or the primary unit to make
a traffic stop on a -- what turned out to be a load vehicle,
either himself or one of the deputies on the squad would remove
the plate and then eventually give it to the deputy.
first stop that I had made, they took the plate off and gave it
GB
OW
.C
OM
So the
to me in my office.
11
Q.
Whose plate was that?
12
A.
It was a plate off of a human smuggling load vehicle.
13
Q.
Whose property was that?
14
A.
The state of Arizona.
TH
E
MS. IAFRATE:
16
THE COURT:
17
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
ND
19
20
MR. COMO:
22
24
25
Mr. Walker.
No questions for this witness, Your
Mr. Como.
15:50:12
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COMO:
Q.
FR
23
15:50:06
IE
21
OF
Honor.
18
15:49:51
FO
10
15
15:49:35
Sergeant, I just have a couple of questions for you.

It sounded, based on your answers to Ms. Iafrate's
questions, is it fair to say that there was some uncertainty in
15:50:36
Trowbridge - Redirect, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
460
your mind for a period of time after this preliminary
injunction order about whether MCSO could lawfully hold people
and turn them over to ICE when there was no state charges
against them?
A.
Yes, a little bit.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
after the order had come out.
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
And that uncertainty persisted for months?
We weren't sure if the unit was still going to exist
Okay.
The meetings that you referred to at the Wells Fargo
building, did those occur shortly after the preliminary
11
injunction order?
12
A.
I don't remember.
13
Q.
Who usually spoke at those meetings?
14
A.
The sheriff's office counsel, Tim Casey.
15
Q.
Despite having heard Mr. Casey at those meetings, you still
16
weren't really certain on what to do in that situation where
17
you were instructed by ICE to turn people over, is that
18
correct?
19
A.
TH
E
OF
ND
FR
23
THE COURT:
IE
22
15:51:20
Correct.
MR. COMO:
21
15:51:08
FO
10
20
15:50:54
MR. SEGURA:
24
BY MR. SEGURA:
25
Q.
15:51:38
Mr. Segura.
Yes, Your Honor.
I'd just like to clarify some -- a few things I'd asked you
15:51:47
461
before.
first deposition in this case?
A.
No.
Q.
I believe you said earlier, and I may have missed this,
that the LEAR policy involved calling a 287(g) certified
officer?
A.
I believe it did, or an HSU supervisor.
Q.
Or an HSU supervisor?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Are you aware that 287(g) had ended prior to you coming to
11
HSU?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
So if a -- and I believe you said that the LEAR policy was
14
followed while you were at HSU, correct?
15
A.
I'm not sure when it started, though.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
the LEAR policy were followed, a 287(g) certified officer would
18
not be called, is that correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
Sergeant Palmer -- Deputy Palmer -- and the sheriff had about
TH
E
FO
15:52:12
15:52:28
ND
OF
But while you were at HSU, during instances in which
During the discussion over the phone that Deputy Palmer --
15:52:44
holding certain individuals, did the December 2011 order come

up during that call?
FR
23
15:52:03
IE
22
No.
Were you asked to search your e-mail prior to your
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
A.
I don't remember.
25
conversation.
I don't remember the specifics of the

15:53:12
Q.
I'd like to show you page 102 of your first deposition,
lines 3 through 12.
So I asked you:
"What was the outcome of that call?"

"That the people were removed
out of our building and taken to ICE."
Then I asked you:
wanted to keep them there?"
Your response was:
I then asked you:
"Why did that happen if the sheriff
"I'm not sure."
"Did Sergeant Palmer refuse to keep
them there?"
11
13
was in violation of the order."
14
TH
E
sheriff that it was -- it wasn't in our best interests, that it
Is that deposition testimony truthful and accurate?

A.
Yes, it is.
16
Q.
Will you turn to the next page of your deposition, lines 11
17
through 16.
This is also in reference to that call.
I asked you:
"So the sheriff is giving an order that
ND
he wants the individuals held for the media, right?"
20
Your answer is:
"Yes."
15:54:52
I asked you, "And Sergeant Palmer's saying that they
IE
21
can't do that because of the Court's order, right?"
FR
23
15:54:20
18
OF
15
22
15:54:05
"I think he informed the
12
19
15:53:54
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
462
And your answer is:
"Correct."
Right?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And your deposition testimony was truthful and accurate?
15:55:01
Trowbridge - Recross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
A.
Yes, it is.
THE COURT:
Ms. Iafrate.
MS. IAFRATE:
GB
OW
.C
OM
463
Briefly, Your Honor.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. IAFRATE:
Q.
from your deposition.
ask you some questions?
A.
No.
10
Q.
You answered that Palmer had said that it was a violation
11
of the order to do what the sheriff was requesting, which was
12
hold them at that building, correct?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
You know that it's a violation of the order what
15
Sergeant Palmer did, correct?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And he thought -- well, I don't want to go there.
Sergeant Palmer, you were just read questions and answers

Do you need me to put them back up to
FO
TH
E
15:55:43
OF
Now I know that, yes.
So there continued to be confusion even at this time

when there was a discussion regarding what did and did not
20
violate the order?
21
A.
ND
19
15:56:02
IE
Yes.
Q.
Even as to what Sergeant Palmer said, correct?
A.
Correct.
FR
23
15:55:29
18
22
15:55:19
24
MS. IAFRATE:
25
THE COURT:
Nothing further.
Mr. Walker?
15:56:11
Doan - Direct, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
464
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
MR. COMO:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Next witness.
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, plaintiffs are going to call
Mr. Como?
GB
OW
.C
OM

You may step down.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Emily Doan.
some efforts on our part to achieve a stipulation.
I should note that this has been the subject of
We have not
achieved agreement, so therefore we're going to need to call
11
the witness.
THE COURT:
All right.
13
THE CLERK:
State your full name for the record and
TH
E
12
14
spell your last name.
15
THE WITNESS:
16
THE CLERK:
Raise your right hand.
17
THE COURT:
Please proceed.
OF
Emily Doan.
Doan is spelled D-o-a-n.
20
ND
IE
21
15:57:33
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BYUN:
Q.
FR
23
15:56:58
EMILY DOAN,
19
22
15:56:31
FO
10
18
15:56:19
Good afternoon.
24
Court.
25
A.
Good afternoon.
Would you please introduce yourself to the
My name is Emily Doan.
15:57:38
465
Q.
Ms. Doan, where do you work?
A.
I work at Covington & Burling in the Redwood Shores office.
I am a paralegal there.
Q.
the DVDs containing traffic stop videos?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Please describe the defendants' production of the DVDs that
you examined.
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Ms. Doan, have you examined the defendants' production of
I reviewed eight binders of DVDs that we received from the
defendants labeled either HSU binder videos or traffic stops
11
from different deputies.

MR. BYUN:
13
and 215.
14
215, please.
15
I'd like to show the witness Exhibits 214
Could you please hand the witness Exhibits 214 and
TH
E
12
THE CLERK:
(Handing exhibits to witness).
BY MR. BYUN:
17
Q.
Ms. Doan, do you recognize Exhibit 214?
18
A.
Yes, I do.
19
Q.
What does Exhibit 214 show?
20
A.
21
number, description, and deputy name of all the DVDs received
15:58:21
ND
OF
16
15:58:49
IE
This is a video log of -- that indicates the date, disk
from defendants.
Q.
Who prepared this log?
24
A.
I did, with the help of some of the staff in my office.
25
Q.
Is Exhibit 214 a fair and accurate summary of the
FR
23
15:58:04
FO
10
22
15:57:52
15:59:13
defendants' production of the DVDs?
A.
Yes.
Q.
How many of these DVDs are dated before July 2012?
A.
There are 456, according to this log.
Q.
Were any traffic stop videos produced before trial?
A.
No.
MR. BYUN:
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
GB
OW
.C
OM
Any objection?
No, Your Honor.

No objection.
11
MR. COMO:
12
THE COURT:
13
None.
15:59:44
FO
MR. WALKER:
TH
E
14
BY MR. BYUN:
15
Q.
16
the defendants' document production?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Please describe the documents that you examined.
19
A.
I examined incident reports that the defendants produced
20
post-trial as they were producing concurrent with my review.
21
Q.
15:59:53
ND
OF
Moving to the incident reports, Ms. Doan, have you examined
IE
I'm sorry, Ms. Doan.
question.
FR
23
15:59:29
I offer Exhibit 214 into evidence.
10
22
466
16:00:06
Could you re -- let me re-ask the
I missed what you said.

Please describe the document that you examined.
24
A.
I examined incident reports in the defendants' post-trial
25
production as they were producing documents concurrent with my
16:00:29
467
review.
Q.
Ms. Doan, do you recognize Exhibit 215?
A.
Yes, I do.
Q.
Who prepared that summary?
A.
I did.
Q.
What does Exhibit 215 show?
A.
Exhibit 215 is a log that includes Bates numbers and dates
of incident reports that were dated before July 2012, but only
produced after July 2012.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Q.
Do you mean produced by the defendants?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Is Exhibit 215 a fair and accurate summary of the incident
13
reports that are dated before July 2012 that the defendants
14
produced only after July 2012?
15
A.
16
incident reports that fall under that category.
17
Q.
18
Exhibit 215?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
were not produced before the trial?
TH
E
OF
16:01:27
Ms. Doan, how many incident reports are shown on
ND
There are 124 incident reports.
A.
How do you know that 124 incident reports on Exhibit 215
16:01:42
I ran key word searches in the pretrial production
environment, and these key words included unique phrases such
FR
23
Yeah, it's a fair and accurate summary of examples of
IE
22
16:01:11
FO
10
16:00:50
24
as people's names and street names, and I didn't find matching
25
incident reports in the pretrial environment.
16:02:07
Doan - Cross, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
MR. BYUN:
MS. IAFRATE:
I offer Exhibit 215 into evidence.
Your Honor.
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
I have an objection regarding the title,
The title?
The title.
GB
OW
.C
OM
468
Well, since I'm going to be the one that's
considering it, how about if I ignore the title?
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
If you can.
I'm going to -- with the stipulation that
I'm going to ignore the title of the document, unless there's
11
any other objections, I'm going to admit it.
12
MR. COMO:
13
MR. WALKER:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. BYUN:
16
17
THE COURT:
None from me, Your Honor.
TH
E
All right.
16:02:42
OF
Cross-examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
18
BY MS. IAFRATE:
20
Q.
21
A.
ND
19
Good afternoon.
16:02:56
IE
Good afternoon.
Q.
You looked at a lot of DVDs?
A.
I did.
24
Q.
You looked at a lot of documents, correct?
25
A.
Correct.
FR
23
16:02:32
FO
10
22
16:02:19
16:03:02
Q.
Did you look at the entire pretrial disclosure and compare
that to the disclosure that you've listed in 2014 and 2015?
A.
Can you repeat the question?
Q.
Let me -- let me break it down.
GB
OW
.C
OM
469
The pretrial disclosures, so before the hearing, did
you look at all the disclosure that was disclosed to plaintiffs
prior to trial?
A.
word searches that would have brought up the, you know --
I didn't look at every single document, but I did run key
Q.
I understand what you did do; I'm trying to figure out what
11
you didn't do.
12
So did you look at all the pretrial disclosure in this

case?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
You looked at every piece of paper?
16
A.
Not every piece of paper.
17
Q.
You looked at every audio and video that was produced?
18
A.
Not every single audio and video that was produced, only
19
what came up in the searches.
20
Q.
21
interested in the documents that were produced by Tim Casey.
16:03:52
ND
OF
TH
E
13
I understand that you did key word searches, but I'm more
IE
A.
FR
23
16:03:43
FO
10
22
16:03:22
16:04:08
Did you look at all of those?
I ran my searches in the database that has all of those
24
documents, yes.
25
Q.
Okay.
So my question is different than the results of
16:04:26
searches.
Did you look at all of the
disclosure that Tim Casey produced to your firm?
A.
Not every single document.
Q.
So you didn't do a one-to-one comparison regarding what was
disclosed afterward, correct?
A.
much time to look at every single document.
Q.
need you to focus on the question.
GB
OW
.C
OM
My question is:
470
The productions were voluminous.
I understand.
It would have taken too
But I'm just asking a question and I just
You didn't do a one-to-one comparison, correct?

A.
I did not do a one-to-one comparison, no.
12
Q.
Because that would be practically impossible because it's
13
so voluminous, correct?
14
A.
15
we did not have the time.
16
Q.
I'm agreeing with you here.
17
A.
Yeah.
18
Q.
It's voluminous, right?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
regarding how you did this comparison?
TH
E
11
I mean, we -- if we had the time we could do it, but yes,
OF
ND
And so did you share those key searches with me or my firm
A.
No, I did not.
Q.
Did anyone check your comparison?
24
A.
Yes, I -- yes, people did check my comparison.
25
Q.
Who checked after your comparison?
FR
23
16:05:17
16:05:22
IE
22
16:05:01
FO
10
16:04:48
16:05:40
471
A.
My counterparts, other paralegals at the firm.
Q.
So when you did this comparison were you given instruction
on how to do it?
A.
Yes, I was.
Q.
Who told you how to do it?
A.
I spoke to my attorneys.
Q.
Who?
A.
Who precisely?
Q.
Anyone else?
10
A.
We did run through some of the instructions with Stan.
11
Q.
Anyone else?
12
A.
I got some instruction from Julie Romanow, who is my
13
counterpart paralegal in my office, yes.
14
Q.
What were the search terms that were used?
15
A.
As I said before, they were specific unique names of people
16
and/or roads and/or deputies that would have been in incident
17
reports.
18
Q.
Do you have a list of those somewhere?
19
A.
I do not have a list of them somewhere.
20
Q.
21
A.
I spoke to Hyun.
16:06:27
OF
TH
E
FO
16:06:10
ND
How did you determine which search terms to use?
16:06:48
They were on the incident reports themselves.
Q.
And you didn't keep track of which search terms you used?
A.
Well, they were unique to each incident report.
24
Q.
So did you keep track of the search --
25
A.
I didn't make a list, no.
FR
23
16:05:52
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
16:07:05
472
Q.
There's no list anywhere that shows the search terms that
you used in order to compare this to the pretrial disclosures?
A.
No, there's no list.
GB
OW
.C
OM
MS. IAFRATE:
THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
MR. COMO:
MR. BYUN:
No questions.
Mr. Walker?
Mr. Como?
11
Next witness.
12
MR. YOUNG:
You can step down.
THE COURT:
Just so you know, I know you've indicated
you've got about three hours' worth of direct.
16
shut off about 5 o'clock, so if you get a convenient place
17
that's five or ten minutes one side or the other, I'll allow
18
you to stop there if it makes more sense.
OF
15
21
22
24
25
We'll look to
16:08:16
Okay?
Yes, Your Honor.

Please state your full name for the record
16:08:32
and spell your first and last name.
FR
23
THE CLERK:
IE
20
MR. YOUNG:
ND
19
16:07:49
Your Honor, plaintiffs call Sheriff Joseph
TH
E
14
Thank you.
FO
THE COURT:
Arpaio.
16:07:18
10
13
THE WITNESS:
THE CLERK:
Joseph M. Arpaio, A-r-p-a-i-o.
Please raise your right hand.

JOSEPH M. ARPAIO,
16:08:38
Arpaio - Direct, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15
DIRECT EXAMINATION
GB
OW
.C
OM
473
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Good afternoon, Sheriff.
A.
Good afternoon.
Q.
You ask your officers to go out every day and risk their
lives in order to protect the public and to uphold the law.
A.
Yes.
Q.
It's important, therefore, that you yourself uphold and
obey the law, correct?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
The oath that you took to enforce the law includes orders
13
of the court that apply to you, correct?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
I'm going to ask that you look at Exhibits 71 and 72, and
16
actually 67.
TH
E
OF
Sheriff, do you have Exhibit 71, which is an expedited
18
motion to vacate hearing and request for entry of judgment that
19
your lawyers filed on your behalf?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
Yes.
16:10:16
IE
And you approved the filing of that document, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
In that document you acknowledged that you have violated
FR
23
16:09:37
17
22
16:09:24
FO
10
16:09:09
24
the Court's orders and that there are consequences for those
25
violations?
16:10:32
MS. IAFRATE:
Your Honor, objection.
not in evidence.
THE COURT:
This exhibit is
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'm going to sustain the objection to the
extent you're asking him to describe what's in an exhibit
that's not admitted into evidence.
I think it's hearsay.
MR. YOUNG:
I move for the admission of Exhibit 71.
THE COURT:
MS. IAFRATE:
Any objection?
Objection, Your Honor, hearsay.

Same objection.
11
MR. COMO:
12
THE COURT:
I'm going to sustain the objection.
13
MR. YOUNG:
Well, Your Honor, may I be heard?
14
THE COURT:
You may.
15
MR. YOUNG:
It's a party admission.
16
THE COURT:
Hmm.
OF
TH
E
I'll join, Your Honor.
Do you have any response to that?
MS. IAFRATE:
Your Honor, I wouldn't object to the
questions, except for the reading of them and his response.
20
he asks the question --
16:11:24
Well, but I posed you a specific question.
It seems to me like it's a party admission, so it doesn't

constitute hearsay.
FR
23
THE COURT:
If
IE
22
ND
19
21
16:11:10
Well, it does strike me that it's a
18
16:10:59
FO
MR. WALKER:
party admission.
16:10:44
10
17
474
24
Do you have a response to that?
25
MS. IAFRATE:
I do not.
16:11:37
THE COURT:
All right.
The exhibit is admitted.
The objection's overruled.
GB
OW
.C
OM
475
MR. YOUNG:
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
violated the Court's orders and that there are consequences for
those violations, correct?
A.
I'm trying to read the --
10
Q.
Well, actually, you don't need to read the document for
11
this next question, for this question I'm asking you.
Sheriff, you acknowledge and appreciate that you have
You acknowledge and appreciate that you have violated

the Court's orders and that there are consequences for those
14
violations, is that right?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
And you also consent to a finding of civil contempt against
17
you and the imposition of remedies to address that conduct, is
18
that correct?
19
A.
20
Q.
21
of 21 facts.
16:12:10
ND
Yes.
OF
TH
E
13
IE
Exhibit 71 contains an Exhibit A, which contains a listing
16:12:26
The first page of Exhibit A is displayed on the
screen, but you can look at it in the document as well.
FR
23
16:11:59
FO
12
22
16:11:46
Do you agree that all of those 21 facts are true?
24
A.
With the caveat that I am the leader of this office and I
25
take the responsibility.
16:13:07
Q.
Well, with that caveat, you agree that those facts are
true, is that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, could you look at Exhibit 72, which is the Court's
order to show cause dated February 12, 2015.
A.
Yes.
Q.
You've seen that before, Sheriff, correct?
A.
Yes.
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, I'd move the admission of
Exhibit 72.
11
MS. IAFRATE:
12
MR. WALKER:
13
MR. COMO:

I thought it already was admitted, but I
have no objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
16
17
BY MR. YOUNG:
18
Q.
19
the judge's order to show cause are true.
20
stipulation, correct?
21
A.
You agree with that
ND
Your attorneys have stipulated that the facts contained in
16:14:09
You mean did I sign off on it or do I agree with it?
IE
Q.
My question is:
Do you agree with your attorneys'
stipulation that the facts contained in the order to show cause
FR
23
16:13:59
OF
15
22
16:13:50
No objection.
TH
E
14
16:13:29
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
476
24
are true?
25
A.
Yes.
16:14:32
Q.
preliminary injunction order.
5 on page 40 be displayed.
order that is relevant to this proceeding.
477
Exhibit 67, which has been admitted, is the Court's
GB
OW
.C
OM
I'm going to ask that paragraph
It contains the Court's injunction
You became aware of that injunction when it came out,
correct?
A.
Not necessarily.
Q.
Very shortly after it came out you became aware of it, is
that right?
A.
11
but it was not the -- when it immediately came out I wasn't on
12
a list notifying that it came out on December 23.
13
26 I left town, I was out of state, and didn't come back to the
14
office till January 3rd.
15
Q.
16
correct, on April 29, 2014?
17
A.
I may have been.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
line 9, be displayed.
20
that -- that paragraph 5 of the order begins to be read, if we
21
could show page 67 as well.
24
25
TH
E
OF
16:16:29
And at the bottom of page 66 you'll see
ND
I'm going to ask that page 66, line 23, to page 67,
16:17:05
Page 67 of the deposition
transcript.
FR
23
16:15:52
On December
Well, you were deposed in the Department of Justice's case,
IE
22
When you say "shortly," I don't know what the time period,
FO
10
16:15:34
And at line 7 of page 67 you were asked:
"Do you
recall being aware of this Order when it came out?"

And you answered:
"Yes."
16:17:44
478
Was that testimony true when you gave it in the

Department of Justice case?
A.
that it came out, but that was my only knowledge of that order.
Q.
Arizona Republic, correct?
A.
It's possible.
Q.
You do not recall believing that the injunction was vague
or unclear in any way, correct?
GB
OW
.C
OM
I was -- I believe before I left town that someone told me
You may have read about the preliminary injunction in The
A.
Can you repeat that question?
11
Q.
You do not recall believing that the injunction was vague
12
or unclear in any way, is that right?
13
A.
I didn't have knowledge of all the facts of that order.
14
Q.
Well, I didn't ask you about that.
15
whether you thought the injunction was vague or unclear in any
16
way, and you don't recall thinking that at that time, is that
17
right?
18
A.
That's right.
19
Q.
And you don't recall feeling that you needed to have the
20
Court explain or clarify what paragraph 5 of the injunction
21
meant, is that true?
TH
E
OF
16:18:48
ND
A.
What time frame?
Q.
At the time that you first learned of it, you do not recall
FR
23
I was asking you about
16:19:00
IE
22
16:18:29
FO
10
16:18:07
24
believing or feeling that you needed to have the Court explain
25
or clarify what paragraph 5 meant?
16:19:18
A.
Let me say this.
I del -- delegated this court order to my
subordinates, and also to the counsel that represented me.
Q.
deposition, at page 42.
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Well, I'm going to ask you to look at your March 25, 2015,
I have it here.
THE COURT:
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Would you like a paper copy of your deposition, Sheriff?
A.
No, I can read it here.
10
Q.
Okay.
And at line 4 you were asked:
11
"Did you ever feel that you needed to have the Court
explain or clarify what it meant by paragraph 5 of the
13
injunction."
14
TH
E
12
Your response was:
"I don't recall.
That would be
something that the attorneys would look at."

Was that testimony correct?
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
Now, you don't remember one way or the other whether you
19
ever obtained any opinions from your attorneys about the
20
meaning of paragraph 5 of the Court's December 23, 2011, order,
21
is that right?
IE
ND
17
A.
Not that I can recall.
Q.
Okay.
24
A.
My attorneys did, yes.
25
Q.
You were the ultimate decision maker on the decision
FR
23
16:20:34
OF
16
22
16:20:15
FO
Page 42.
16:20:05
It will be coming up, I think.
15
479
16:20:52
You appealed that order, correct?
16:21:11
480
whether to appeal that order, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And you knew that the Ninth Circuit affirmed the injunction
order on September 25, 2011 -- 2012, rather, correct?
A.
What month?
Q.
September 25, 2012, you knew that the Ninth Circuit
affirmed the injunction on that date, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Sheriff, you never forgot about the preliminary injunction,
GB
OW
.C
OM
correct?
11
A.
12
the -- that order, and also my counsel was heavily involved.
13
Q.
14
deposition of March 25th, 2015, starting at line 5.
15
you were asked:
16
district court had issued its injunction?"
Once again, I wasn't involved.
I said I delegated the --
TH
E
Sheriff, please look at on the screen page 33 of your
OF
18
The question I asked is I said "yes."
You answered:
A.
FR
23
I knew it
16:22:52
Was your testimony in that regard correct?
IE
22
"No, I don't forget.
was out there."
21
16:22:33
"Forget?
ND
19
And there
"At any time did you ever forget that the
17
20
16:21:52
FO
10
16:21:30
Yes, I mentioned that I heard about it.

THE COURT:
I'm going to interrupt, Mr. Young, just to
24
say that we have again received word that my order is being
25
violated about no tweeting, no phone use, no recording.
I'm
16:23:05
481
going to instruct the marshals right -- and I do apologize.
want every member of the public to have access to this
proceeding.
I'm going to instruct the marshals now, without further
direction from me, to remove anyone from the courtroom who is
seen violating my orders.
GB
OW
.C
OM
But if you don't follow the rules of this Court,
All right?
You may proceed, Mr. Young.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
Thank you.
Sheriff, at all times from December 23, 2011, to the
present day, you have known that the Court's injunction was out
11
there, is that right?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
I want you now to look at page 39 of the injunction, again
14
PX 67, starting at line 21 and going to line 27.
15
A.
Line 21, page --
16
Q.
Yes -- yes.
17
on the screen.
TH
E
OF
It's page 39, starting at line 21.
16:24:07
It's also
I want you to focus on the second sentence of that
18
paragraph of the Court's injunction order, which says, quote:
20
"Local law enforcement agencies, such as the MCSO, may not
21
enforce civil federal immigration law."
IE
ND
19
A.
FR
23
24
25
16:23:39
FO
10
22
16:23:23
16:24:25
You see that sentence?
Yes.
THE COURT:
You know, Sheriff, if you want to pull
that microphone over --
16:24:39
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
482
Thank you.
GB
OW
.C
OM
-- you can pull it over so you can look at
the screen.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
removed, you have understood that that sentence is correct, is
that right?
A.
What year was this, can I ask?
Q.
Well, this is --
10
A.
2011?
11
Q.
This is page 39 of the Court's December 23, 2011, order.
12
My question to you was:
13
removed, you have always known that it is true that, quote,
14
"local law enforcement agencies, such as the MCSO, may not
15
enforce civil federal immigration law."
16
A.
17
that year on whether it was a federal or civil offense, but
18
that would be accurate if it was a civil immigration law that
19
you're talking about.
20
Q.
21
enforce civil federal immigration law, is that right?
FO
16:25:22
TH
E
Is that right?
16:25:46
ND
OF
I'm only pausing because I believe there was controversy
A.
Okay.
So you knew that you did not have the authority to
Once again, I didn't have all the facts of that order.
16:26:12
delegated that to my counsel and relied on them to abide by
FR
23
16:24:50
Ever since your 287(g) authority was
IE
22
At all times since your agency's 287(g) authority was
24
this order.
So I'm not sure at that time whether I was
25
informed about the civil part of it.
16:26:43
483
Q.
Well, you knew, just based on the fact that you no longer
had 287(g) authority for traffic stops, outside of your jails,
that you did not have the authority that you used to have under
287(g) to enforce federal civil immigration law, is that right?
A.
Civil and criminal on the 287(g) --
Q.
Right.
A.
-- but that would be correct then.
Q.
And then the next sentence of that same paragraph states,
quote:
GB
OW
.C
OM
"Defendants are therefore enjoined from detaining
individuals in order to investigate civil violations of federal
11
immigration law."
12
Do you see that?

A.
Yes.
14
Q.
You knew that when you learned of the injunction, right?
15
A.
Well, I don't know which time of that year, but it's
16
possible that that came to my attention.
17
Q.
18
Department of Justice case was taken, you could not recall
19
directing that anything be done to make sure that your office
20
was going to comply with the injunction, is that right?
21
A.
16:27:33
OF
TH
E
13
ND
As of April 2014, which is when your deposition in the
16:28:09
Can you repeat that question?
IE
Q.
At the time of your Department of Justice deposition in
April 2014, you could not recall directing that anything be
FR
23
16:27:24
FO
10
22
16:27:07
24
done to make sure that your office was going to comply with the
25
injunction, is that correct?
16:28:29
A.
I mentioned previously that this was
delegated to my staff and to the -- and the counsel was looking
into it.
Q.
2014, deposition, starting at line 21.
"As to paragraph 5 on page 40" -- referring to the injunction
order -- "did you direct that anything be done to make sure
your office was going to comply with that part?"
GB
OW
.C
OM
No, it's not correct.
484
I'm going to ask that you look at page 67 of that April 29,
"I don't recall."
11
A.
12
counsel and it was delegated to my staff to carry it out.
13
Q.
14
deposition transcript?
15
A.
Which one are you talking about?
16
Q.
The one that we're looking at right now from April 29,
17
2014.
18
A.
I'm not sure whether I reviewed it.
19
Q.
Did you make any changes to it?
20
A.
21
Q.
16:29:38
ND
OF
TH
E
Did you have a chance to review your Department of Justice
Did I make changes?
In what form?
Q.
Any form.
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
You never asked either Chief Deputy Sheridan or Chief Sands
FR
16:29:53
Yes.
A.
23
16:29:16
Once again, I mentioned that this order was reviewed by the
IE
22
16:28:51
FO
10
And you were asked:
Do you recall making any changes to it at all?
16:30:05
485
what they were doing to make sure that your office complied
with the injunction, correct?
A.
handled by Chief Sands.
Q.
never asked either of them what they were doing to make sure
that your office complied with the injunction, is that right?
A.
I don't recall whether I did or did not.
Q.
Okay.
Well, Chief Sheridan wasn't really in control.
It was
Well, in either case, I'm asking about both of them.
You
I'm going to ask you to look at your March 25, 2015,
deposition starting at page 51, line 13.
11
You were asked:
13
the office complied with the injunction?"
TH
E
them, Sheridan or Sands, what they were doing to make sure that
14
Your answer was:
15
Was that testimony true and correct when you gave it
"No."
several weeks ago?
17
A.
18
not involved and I delegated to Sands.
19
Q.
20
make sure that your office complied with the injunction,
21
correct?
16:31:12
OF
16
I think I just answered that, that I -- that Sheridan was
IE
ND
And you didn't ask either of them what they were doing to
A.
I think I answered that, too, that I don't recall.
16:31:38
I may
have.
FR
23
16:30:52
"Did you ever ask them, either of
12
22
16:30:30
FO
10
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
Q.
Okay.
Well, at the time you just answered no, was that
25
answer not correct during your deposition?
16:31:47
A.
I said they may have.
2
3
THE COURT:
I may have.
You know, Sheriff, you need to listen
GB
OW
.C
OM
486
carefully --
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
Yeah.
-- to the questions that Mr. Young asks
you, and you need to answer his questions.
you want to say, that you want to get out about what he's
asking you, but Ms. Iafrate will have a full opportunity to ask
you questions where you can explain your side of the case.
You may have things
11
questions and you need to answer only Mr. Young's questions.

THE WITNESS:
13
THE COURT:
14
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
TH
E
Okay?
Yeah.
15
BY MR. YOUNG:
16
Q.
17
you never asked either Sheridan or Sands what they were doing
18
to make sure that the office complied with the injunction.
OF
S
ND
Are you saying that your deposition testimony on that
20
point was incorrect?
21
A.
16:32:49
I'm saying I may have.
IE
Q.
So you're saying something different now than you did
during your deposition.
FR
23
16:32:35
So Sheriff, in your deposition on March 25, you stated that
19
22
16:32:26
FO
until that time you need to listen carefully to Mr. Young's
And
10
12
16:32:08
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
You've never disciplined Chief Deputy Sheridan or
16:33:05
487
Chief Sands because your office failed to obey the injunction,
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, I want to talk with you a bit about Chief Sands.
GB
OW
.C
OM
You know Chief Sands generally to be a truthful
person, correct?
A.
To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q.
You cannot recall any instance where Chief Sands ever lied
about anything, is that right?

A.
I don't recall.
11
Q.
You don't recall any instance where he lied, is that right?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
Now, Chief Sands says that he wanted, and told you that he
14
wanted, that all deputies in the entire MCSO learn about the
15
injunction, but that you told him that it should go out only to
16
the Human Smuggling Unit.
TH
E
You don't deny that, correct?

A.
Pursuant to the advice of my attorney.
19
Q.
All right.
20
you don't have any reason to doubt Chief Sands' testimony on
21
that point, is that right?
Well, with that caveat, you don't contradict or

16:34:17
IE
ND
18
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Now, Chief Sands also testified about a discussion he had
FR
23
16:33:55
OF
17
22
16:33:34
FO
10
16:33:19
24
with you after the injunction was granted when he told you that
25
where there were no state charges, he thought that your office
16:34:36
488
needed to release illegal immigrants rather than take them to
ICE or the Border Patrol, and that he specifically mentioned
the Court preliminary injunction during that conversation with
you.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Do you recall that testimony that he gave here while
you were here?
A.
It may have happened, yes.
Q.
That conversation that he described with you may have
happened, correct?
That's what he said.
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
So you don't deny Chief Sands' testimony on that point, is
12
that right?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
You mean no, you don't deny it, is that right?
15
A.
Could you repeat the question?
16
Q.
Do you deny Chief Sands' testimony?
17
A.
Can you repeat the question on the testimony?
18
Q.
Yeah.
19
issued he told you that in a case which he called a drop-house
20
scenario, where there were no state charges to be brought, he
21
thought that you would need to release an illegal immigrant
TH
E
OF
16:35:18
IE
ND
Chief Sands testified that after the injunction was
16:35:35
rather than take him or her to ICE or the Border Patrol.
FR
23
16:35:06
FO
10
22
16:34:54
Do you recall his testimony on that point?
24
A.
So you were referring to the drop house?
25
Q.
To that scenario that he called a drop-house scenario that
16:35:52
489
he discussed with you this issue.
A.
the drop-house investigation.
unfortunately, many of the people coming into our country are
held hostage in these drop houses.
it be possible to call the Phoenix Police, or even use some of
the occupants as material witnesses to the human smuggling
investigation.
told him that.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Well, we had -- I had a little problem with that regarding

When you have a drop house,
So my only point was would
That was what I was thinking of and may have
Q.
11
heard Chief Sands' testimony here yesterday, do you deny
12
Chief Sands' testimony here under oath today?
13
A.
14
why.
15
Q.
16
shortly after the injunction, correct?
17
A.
18
observation talking to me, two minutes, he said.
19
Q.
20
situation where you were not going to bring state charges
21
against someone who was an illegal immigrant, is that right?
My question was, and you
16:36:40
TH
E
He may have said that, and I gave you my response as to
16:37:00
OF
So you're saying he may have said that to you sometime
I think he said it only took him two minutes to make that
16:37:31
IE
ND
You do not recall ever asking an attorney what to do in the
A.
I may have talked to counsel.
Q.
Well, you don't actually recall an instance we were you did
FR
23
Sheriff, that wasn't my question.
FO
10
22
16:36:17
24
talk to counsel about what your office should do in that
25
situation, is that right?
16:37:51
A.
I have a lot of meetings, so I don't
recall every meeting that I have.
Q.
deposition, and 304, your deposition from April 14, 2015.
GB
OW
.C
OM
I don't recall.
490
Well, I'm going to ask you to look at page 303 of your
And you were asked:
"Did you ever ask an attorney
what you should do" -- this is at line 21 -- "what you should
do in a situation where you're not going to bring state
charges, but where the person's an illegal immigrant?"

You answered:
10
"The possibility exists."
And you were asked:
"Do you recall ever asking an
11
attorney what to do in that situation, in view of the
12
preliminary injunction?"
You answered "No" and said "I -- once again, I figured
TH
E
13
14
that Sands and others would be dealing with attorneys.
15
seldom met with the attorneys."
I very
16:38:57
Was that answer correct at the time you gave it?
OF
16
A.
Yes, and I think I said that a few minutes ago.
18
Q.
Well, you never told anyone else that they should get legal
19
advice on that situation, correct?
20
A.
21
Q.
ND
I had counsel.
16:39:10
IE
But you never told anyone that they should get legal advice
in that situation, is that right?

A.
Not that I can recall.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
to 10, you were asked this question:
FR
23
17
22
16:38:41
FO
16:38:26
Well, on page 304 of your deposition, from lines 5

"Did you ever tell
16:39:29
491
anybody else that -- in your agency that they should get advice
from an attorney in the situation where you have an illegal
immigrant but no state charges?
they should get advice on what to do?"

No."
GB
OW
.C
OM
Did you ever tell someone that
Your answer was:
A.
Yes.
Q.
Now, you were here yesterday when Sergeant Palmer
testified, right?
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
had with you about whether the preliminary injunction allowed
13
your office to keep certain people at the MCSO who were not
14
charged with crimes but who were believed to be illegal
15
immigrants?
16
A.
17
presume it did occur.
18
Q.
19
and refused to obey your illegal order, or what he considered
20
to be illegal order.
21
that conversation that he described?
TH
E
You heard him talk about an argument that he says he
You recall his testimony on that point?
OF
ND
That's the testimony where he says that he stood his ground
You think that that may have occurred,
A.
That's his version.
Q.
Okay.
24
A.
Yes, I -- I don't give orders to sergeants.
25
Q.
Sheriff, I'm going to play a section of your deposition
FR
23
16:40:20
I didn't recall that conversation until just recently, so I
IE
22
16:40:01
FO
10
16:39:48
16:40:41
Well, you don't deny what he says, correct?
16:41:01
from March 25.
It's video number 7 of line -- page 184, line
14, to page 185, line 15.
GB
OW
.C
OM
492
(Videotaped deposition clip played as follows:)
"Question:
Well, what Sergeant Palmer seems to be
saying is that you told him, and you told Lieutenant Sousa to
tell him, that he should keep those people there, even though
they weren't going to to be charged with a crime, to give you
time to get to Enforcement Support Division so that you could
be there and release them and tell the media that you were
releasing them because ICE was refusing to take them.
11
"Is Sergeant Palmer correct in that statement?
12
"Answer:
Once again, I -- I don't have a recollection
of, if I talked to him, everything that he said.
TH
E
13
14
"You don't deny what he's saying; correct?
15
"Answer:
I'm -- once again, I still don't recall what
he's saying.
17
what context it was in, and what the reasoning was.
22
"Answer:
I'm not saying I'm denying it.
I don't,
16:42:32
first of all, I don't personally recall specifically the

incident; number two, what the context of the conversation was.
It could be accurate, but I'm not sure."
FR
23
of Sergeant Palmer's interview as set forth in Exhibit 101?
ND
21
"Do you deny anything that's in the transcript pages
IE
20
I don't know if he said it, he didn't say it,
18
16:42:11
OF
16
19
16:41:45
FO
10
16:41:22
24
(Videotaped deposition clip concluded.)
25
So if I can summarize, Sheriff, you think that it's
16:42:50
493
possible that you did have that conversation with
Sergeant Palmer, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Over the course of 2012 and 2013, you issued various press
releases relating to immigration issues, correct?
A.
Along with many others, yes.
Q.
Your public information office helps you with those press
releases, correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And they get information for those press releases from
11
talking to the people who are responsible for the particular
12
arrests or operations, right?
13
A.
Normally, yes.
14
Q.
Your press releases reflect your views, correct?
15
A.
It reflects the -- the facts of the investigations, if
16
that's what you're talking about, plus also some comments I had
17
made on general terms that has nothing to do with the
18
investigation.
19
Q.
20
you see a problem or something being wrong, you tell your
21
public information office to change it, is that right?
16:43:41
OF
TH
E
FO
16:43:28
ND
Before they go out, you look at your press releases, and if
A.
16:44:06
Normally I do look at them, but I rely on the facts and
also the person preparing the press release.
FR
23
16:43:13
IE
22
GB
OW
.C
OM
24
Q.
You normally look at the quotations that are attributed to
25
you in your press releases to make sure that they accurately
16:44:31
494
reflect your thoughts, is that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
You cannot think of any press release that your office has
issued that you would not stand behind today, is that right?
A.
possible.
Q.
release that you would not stand behind, is that right?
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
There may be a few occasions I don't remember, but it's
Well, as you sit here today, you cannot recall any press
I'm saying again there could be some facts that may be
wrong or that could have occurred and we find out later, but in
11
general terms, I should and will stand by those press releases.
12
Q.
13
releases that is wrong?
14
A.
There's so many of them, I can't keep track.
15
Q.
So you don't recall any right now that are wrong, is that
16
right?
17
A.
18
information.
19
Q.
20
information office that they quoted you on something that they
21
should not have quoted you on, is that right?
16:45:33
OF
TH
E
Do you recall as you sit here today any of your press
I know in history that some may have been wrong on
16:45:47
IE
ND
You cannot think of ever telling anyone in the public
A.
It's possible, but I don't remember any specific instance.
Q.
Your press releases let your constituents know what your
FR
23
16:45:09
FO
10
22
16:44:43
24
office is doing on any matter, is that right?
25
A.
Well, it also lets the news media know what we're doing,
16:46:09
495
not just the people of Maricopa County.
Q.
what your office is doing.
do?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Now, in your statements in televised interviews you also
endeavor to tell the news media and people, generally, what
your office is doing, is that right?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
For all of 2012, you cannot name a single instance where
11
the MCSO, your office, acted differently from what you were
12
advocating in your public statements, is that right?
13
A.
I can't recall.
14
Q.
You can't recall any particular time when the MCSO did
15
something different from what you were advocating publicly in
16
your statements, is that right?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
People in that time period were coming to you and wanting
19
to know your position and what you were doing about the illegal
20
immigration problem, is that correct?
21
A.
GB
OW
.C
OM
16:46:29
16:47:16
OF
TH
E
FO
16:46:50
ND
Q.
Counsel, who?
16:47:33
I didn't get your first part of it.
Well, during 2012, say, there were many people who were
coming to you and asking you what your position was on illegal
FR
23
Is that what your press releases
IE
22
So it lets both the news media and your constituents know
24
immigration issues and wanting to know what you and your office
25
were doing about the illegal immigration problem, is that
16:47:55
496
right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And you thought the public actually across the whole
country, including in Arizona, were very interested in that
problem, is that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
You wanted the public to know that you were enforcing the
illegal immigration laws, correct?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 75, and I'm going to --
Yes, actually, if we could give that to him, and if we
12
could show it to the witness on the screen, that would be great
13
as well.
14
TH
E
11
16
A.
Yes.
17
MR. YOUNG:
MR. WALKER:
FR
23
24
25
Any objection?
MS. IAFRATE:
IE
22
THE COURT:
ND
19
21
Your Honor, I move the admission of
Exhibit 75.
16:48:43
OF
December 30, 2011, correct?
20
16:48:17
Exhibit 75 is one of your press releases dated
15
18
16:48:07
FO
GB
OW
.C
OM
MR. COMO:
THE COURT:
No objection.
16:48:50
No objection.
None, Your Honor.
BY MR. YOUNG:
16:48:58
497
Q.
So this is a press release you issued seven days after the
preliminary injunction was issued by this Court, correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And in that, in the second paragraph from the bottom, you
stated:
GB
OW
.C
OM
"I will continue to enforce illegal immigration laws."

Do you see that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
That was your view at the time?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Exhibit 76, which has been admitted, I'm going to ask you
11
to look at that one next.
12
release a few weeks later.
13
that you would continue to crack down on immigration and will
14
not be deterred by activist groups and politicians for
15
enforcing all immigration laws.
That's a February 9, 2012, news
TH
E
And in that one your office stated
16:49:58
Was that your position at the time?
OF
16
A.
18
immigration laws which I can enforce."
19
Q.
20
A.
21
releases are not accurate.
It should be "illegal
ND
But it doesn't say that in the press release?

Well, I'm saying I mentioned before sometimes the press
16:50:24
IE
And that's not a quote from me,
that's a statement.
Q.
FR
23
Well, that's somewhat in error.
17
22
16:49:25
FO
16:49:16
Sheriff, sometime in the early part of 2012 you did an
24
interview with Jorge Ramos on Univision in which you told him
25
that on March 1, 2012, you would be publishing or saying
16:50:46
something about President Obama's birth certificate.
Do you recall that interview?
GB
OW
.C
OM
A.
Yes.
Q.
I'm going to play you a section.
Exhibit 202B.
I'm going to -- it's
JORGE RAMOS:
What do you make of the --
MS. IAFRATE:
Your Honor, can we just confirm that
498
this is in evidence?
THE COURT:
Is this in evidence?
10
MR. YOUNG:
It isn't, but I'm -- based on his
11
testimony, I'm going to move that 202B and 202C, which are
12
excerpts from that interview, be put into evidence.

MS. IAFRATE:
TH
E
13
Now I'm hearing
that they're just excerpts.
I would ask for the rule of
15
completion if he wants to play this, and also it's hearsay and
16
lacks foundation.
17
THE COURT:
Well, why don't you lay a little bit more
foundation, Mr. Young, so that I understand with respect to
19
both 202A and 202B if you're going to move those.
24
25
ND
Yes.
All right?
Well, the best foundation would be
16:52:08
for Sheriff Arpaio to look at it and say that that's him and
that's the interview he gave.
He's already said he recalls
giving the interview with Jorge Ramos.
FR
23
MR. YOUNG:
IE
22
18
21
16:51:49
OF
14
20
16:51:32
FO
16:51:08
These videos are with
Jorge Ramos.
THE COURT:
I'll let you play them and then he can
16:52:24
499
identify whether or not they are that -- whether he gave that
interview.
MR. YOUNG:
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
GB
OW
.C
OM
So Sheriff, could you take a look at --
THE COURT:
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q.
If in fact you've established a basis.
Sheriff, could you take a look at video Exhibit 202B.

(Exhibit 202B is played as follows:)
10
JORGE RAMOS:
What do you make of -- of Romley's
11
self-deportation policy?
Do you think that could work?
12
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
Well, I don't know about that
situation.
Why wait for them to self- -- leave the country?
14
Why not enforce the laws here in the United States if they're
15
here illegally and send them back to their country?
16
this self-deportation have to do with it?
OF
TH
E
13
17
JORGE RAMOS:
19
that's completely --
ND
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
IE
JORGE RAMOS:
That's --
Well --
16:53:17
-- unreasonable.
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
Well, we've done all right here.
They say over a hundred thousand --
FR
23
16:53:05
11 million undocumented immigrants, Sheriff Arpaio?
22
What does
But how are you gonna to send back
18
21
16:52:45
FO
20
16:52:32
24
JORGE RAMOS:
On buses or airplanes?
25
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
What's the plan?
If -- if every state did what I'm
16:53:26
doing, I think we wouldn't have a problem.
2
3
JORGE RAMOS:
Are you still arresting, detaining
GB
OW
.C
OM
500
undocumented immigrants in Arizona?
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
Yes, we are.
We just arrested 31
more recently coming into our country illegally.
them, the majority we book into our jail, we don't turn it over
to ICE.
illegals.
stop -- stopping doing my job.
And we're gonna continue to raid businesses that hire

The majority have false identification.
So I'm not
(Playing of Exhibit 202B is concluded.)
11
BY MR. YOUNG:
12
Q.
13
Jorge Ramos, correct?
14
A.
I have many with him.
15
Q.
I'll tell you, it was published on March 1, 2012.
16
available on YouTube.
22
TH
E
ND
MR. YOUNG:
THE COURT:
16:54:10
Your Honor, I move the admission of 202B.

Objections?
MS. IAFRATE:
the rule of completion.
FR
23
It's
OF
Yes.
A.
IE
21
What -- which one is this?
Was that you in that interview with Jorge Ramos?
19
20
16:54:02
Sheriff, that's your interview, part of your interview with
17
18
16:53:40
FO
10
Arresting
THE COURT:
Yes, Your Honor.
16:54:23
I would object as to
It's just a portion.
Well, I'm going to overrule that
24
objection, but if you wish to play the rest of the portion and
25
establish for me that the rule of completeness would require
16:54:35
its admission, I'll let you do that as well.
MR. WALKER:
Your Honor, I'll join Ms. Iafrate's
GB
OW
.C
OM
501
objection, but I would also object on the grounds that we were
not provided this exhibit.
any of the trial exhibits until Tuesday evening.
As Your Honor knows, we didn't see
THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
Well, the objection is that we were not provided the

exhibit in advance.
10
THE COURT:
11
Well, you've seen it now.

Yes.
Well, I didn't make anybody provide
exhibits in advance in this case.
12
MR. YOUNG:
Yeah, Your Honor, actually we did -- the
parties did exchange exhibits late last week, and I think
14
Mr. Walker's not having seen -- I think we've also given the
15
video to Mr. Walker's office now, but his late -- recent
16
appearance in the case probably means that he hasn't seen all
17
of them.
THE COURT:
ND
MR. YOUNG:
Yes.
THE COURT:
202B is admitted.
That was 202B?

16:55:42
(Exhibit No. 202B is admitted into evidence.)
BY MR. YOUNG:
FR
23
IE
21
16:55:27
In any case, I'm overruling
his objection and admitting the exhibit.
20
22
All right.
18
OF
TH
E
13
19
16:55:11
FO
16:54:57
24
Q.
Now, you told Mr. Ramos, Sheriff, that a majority were
25
being booked into jail and not being turned over to ICE.
That
16:55:49
502
means that a minority were not being booked into jail and were
being turned over to ICE, is that right?
A.
the human smuggling law and the employer sanction laws,
especially on the ID theft.
into the jail.
Q.
to Mr. Ramos that a majority were booked into jail and not
turned over to ICE.
I was mentioning we still had the authority to enforce
So they were arrested and booked
Well, actually, listen to my question, Sheriff.
You said
That means that there were some who were
not booked into jail and were turned over to ICE, correct?
11
MS. IAFRATE:
12
THE COURT:
13
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
TH
E
So the question is were they turned over
to ICE or not turned over to ICE?
15
BY MR. YOUNG:
16
Q.
17
book them into jail because you didn't have state charges to
18
bring against them, is that right?
19
A.
20
elaborated.
21
talking about during the whole program.
24
25
16:56:44
OF
Some of them were turned over to ICE because you did not
I don't believe I
I don't really remember the context that we were
16:56:55
IE
ND
Well, I didn't say that to him.
Q.
I'm going to ask you to look 202C, which is part of the
same interview.
FR
23
16:56:31
14
22
16:56:09
FO
10
No.
GB
OW
.C
OM
MS. IAFRATE:
similar objection?
Your Honor, could I just have the
Now it looks like we've cut and pasted
16:57:18
certain portions of the same video.
THE COURT:
That's correct.
And if you want, again,
GB
OW
.C
OM
503
Ms. Iafrate, if you want, based on the rule of completeness, to
play part of the video to convince me it's appropriate, part or
all of it, I'll allow you to do that in cross-examination.
MR. YOUNG:
And I'll note, Your Honor, just for the
record, that we did exchange with defendants not just the
portions of interviews, videos that we're playing here, but
also the entirety of the video as it may exist on YouTube or

otherwise.
11
THE COURT:
All right.
And so you're going to have to
convince me that the rule of completeness requires it, but if
13
you can, I will allow you to play it.
TH
E
12
MR. YOUNG:
So could we have video 202C, Exhibit 202C.
15
(Exhibit 202C is played as follows:)
16
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
OF
14
America, Texas, and Arizona, I've never had any problems with a
18
Latino.
22
So just because -They don't.
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
FR
23
ND
21
JORGE RAMOS:
IE
20
They love me.
-- I'm enforcing --
16:58:14
They don't.
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
16:57:58
Having lived in Mexico City, South
17
19
16:57:50
FO
10
16:57:34
-- the state --
They don't, Sheriff Arpaio.
24
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
25
JORGE RAMOS:
-- laws they don't like --
They don't -- you're making fun of
16:58:15
these, but -SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
No, they did.
GB
OW
.C
OM
-- they don't -- but they don't love
you.
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
No, I'm not making fun.
Well, how do you know they don't?
You are making fun of the fact --
10
JORGE RAMOS:
11
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
No.
-- that you --
How do you know?
How do you know they don't like me?
13
may be --
JORGE RAMOS:
15
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
16
JORGE RAMOS:
17
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
18
JORGE RAMOS:
How do you know?
There
I've seen --- a small group --
16:58:32
I've seen -- I've seen --- of activists.
-- many polls, I've spoken to many
OF
14
undocumented immigrants, and they are simply telling me is
20
this: that for them, you are --
IE
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
JORGE RAMOS:
-- the voice of America.
24
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
25
JORGE RAMOS:
16:58:37
Well, what poll?
hatred --
FR
23
ND
19
22
16:58:23
How do you know?
TH
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12
21
16:58:20
Yes, because you are making fun --
FO
504
I got my own poll.
-- and discrimination.
The face of
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
Okay.
All right.
That's what they
want to say, then I'll tell you what.
I'm gonna tell I'm going
to continue to enforce the laws.
doing, get the laws changed in Washington or in the state of
Arizona --
GB
OW
.C
OM
If they don't like what I'm
JORGE RAMOS:
SHERIFF ARPAIO:
(Playing of Exhibit 202C is concluded.)
-- then I won't be enforcing the law.
BY MR. YOUNG:
Sheriff Arpaio, that's you in that video, correct?
11
A.
Sure is.
MR. YOUNG:
13
MS. IAFRATE:
14
THE COURT:
15
MR. COMO:
16
MR. WALKER:
Anyone else?
16:59:19
OF
I would object on the additional grounds
Overruled.
I will admit 202C.
THE COURT:
(Exhibit No. 202C is admitted into evidence.)
ND
19
20
BY MR. YOUNG:
21
Q.
16:59:34
IE
Sheriff, in your discussion with Mr. Ramos you mention that
you'll continue to enforce the laws, and that if people don't

like what you're doing, then they should change the laws in
FR
25
Same objection, Your Honor.
relevance, Your Honor.
18
24
Your Honor, I move the admission of 202C.
TH
E
12
23
16:59:05
FO
Q.
22
16:58:55
Let me give you an example.
10
17
505
Washington, D.C., or in Arizona.

Now, you know that the laws that are enacted in
16:59:48
506
Washington, D.C., are federal laws, right?
A.
happens to be a state law, so there -- there is an exercise up
to the Supreme Court and Congress to change the laws that may
affect state and local authorities.
Q.
Arizona state laws.
A.
GB
OW
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OM
Well, I -- I think they have looked into the 1070, which
Well, Congress makes federal laws, right?
They don't make
You agree with that, right?
Yes.
THE COURT:
Mr. Young, I note we're at 5 o'clock.
many more questions do you have to bring you to a reasonable
11
termination point?
will take just a few -- couple minutes, Your Honor.
14
THE COURT:
All right.
15
MR. YOUNG:
Could we look at an admitted exhibit,
which is Exhibit 77.
17
BY MR. YOUNG:
18
Q.
19
office issued, and in the last paragraph on page 2 your office
20
says that you remain, quote, adamant about the fact that your
21
office will continue to enforce both state and federal illegal
IE
ND
Now, Exhibit 77 is a March 28, 2012, news release that your
17:01:08
immigration laws as long as the laws are on the books.
FR
23
17:00:43
OF
16
22
17:00:33
If we could do one more exhibit, which
TH
E
13
MR. YOUNG:
How
FO
10
12
17:00:19
Do you see that?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
That was your view as of March 28, 2012, correct?
17:01:24
A.
That was -- that's another statement in the press release.
It's not my quote.
GB
OW
.C
OM
MR. YOUNG:
Your Honor, this would be a fine time for
THE COURT:
All right.
Let me ask, Mr. McDonald, I just -- I guess I want to
a break.
Thank you.
consult with the parties, your estimate's still about three
hours, so you would think maybe two more on direct, or two,
maybe a little bit more on direct, Mr. Young?

MR. YOUNG:
I hope so, Your Honor.
11
THE COURT:
All right.
12
And then how long for you, Ms. Iafrate?
13
MS. IAFRATE:
morning, Your Honor.
15
THE COURT:
Maybe an hour and a half.
this morning.
All right.
Mr. Walker?
18
MR. WALKER:
17
22
Probably about 15 minutes, Your Honor.
At this point I would think no more than 15
minutes.
THE COURT:
17:02:21
All right.
And then the second round
would be -- it sounds to me, Mr. McDonald, like we will be done

tomorrow.
FR
23
17:02:09
IE
21
MR. COMO:
ND
19
20
I think that is what you said
OF
16
I can't remember what I said this
TH
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14
17:01:58
FO
10
17:01:38
24
MR. McDONALD:
25
THE COURT:
I think you're right.
If in fact we need to have you come back
17:02:28
Friday morning, we will -- well, I'll go long enough tomorrow
to make sure you can make your funeral Friday morning.
3
4
MR. McDONALD:
Thank you.
question?
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. McDONALD:
GB
OW
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OM
Judge, can I ask one
17:02:42
And again, it would be a very limited
area.
I would like the opportunity, and again, I know this is
a civil hearing, but if there's facts or information that I
felt the Court should have at some point to make a decision on

the federal -- or the criminal contempt issue, would I be
11
permitted to ask some limited questions to develop that?
12
you say no, I will respect that.
FO
10
THE COURT:
If
Here's what I think I'm inclined to do.
TH
E
13
17:02:58
don't want to gum up this hearing.
As I've said before, you're
15
entitled, to the extent you believe matters may relate to
16
criminal contempt, to be heard in this hearing that come up by
17
the other parties.
But I think what I'm going to be inclined to do,
18
especially in light of the fact that we're likely looking at
20
some June continuances to have some matters done, is if there's
21
time at the end after we've heard all the facts and all the
IE
17:03:31
testimony the parties want to offer, and even if there's not

time at the end of that, I think I'm inclined to give the
FR
23
ND
19
22
17:03:16
OF
14
24
opportunity for all -- all those potential contemnors who have
25
retained counsel to address the question of whether or not I
17:03:56
should, in addition to finding civil contempt, find criminal
contempt.
GB
OW
.C
OM
So I'd -- and if you believe that you need to put on
evidence at that time, even though I won't at that time have
appointed the United States Attorney to prosecute the case, I
may consider taking evidence at that time.
MR. McDONALD:
THE COURT:
10
That makes it clear.
I said I may consider it.
I didn't say
I'd grant it, necessarily, but I do think I will allow you to

make a proffer if I don't do evidence.
11
12
Thank you.
And yes, Mr. Eisenberg, you can be heard at that time,

too.
MR. EISENBERG:
TH
E
13
I just want to
14
inquire whether you think that would be Friday or whether the
15
opportunity, if the Court allows it, will be in June.

THE COURT:
17
MR. EISENBERG:
18
THE COURT:
All right.
ND
19
Do we want to be on the safe side and
start at 8:30 tomorrow?
21
anybody?
IE
Thank you.
Anything else?
20
Is that going to inconvenience
MR. YOUNG:
I think it's fine with plaintiffs, Your
24
THE COURT:
All right.
25
MR. COMO:
17:04:48
Honor.
FR
23
17:04:37
It will be in June.
OF
16
22
17:04:24
FO
Okay.
17:04:11
Let's -- Mr. Como?
No problem, Your Honor.
17:04:57
THE COURT:
MR. WALKER:
THE COURT:
Mr. Walker?
8:30 would be fine, Your Honor.
GB
OW
.C
OM
Let's start at 8:30, just to make sure
we're -- we're going to be able to do that.
MR. YOUNG:
THE COURT:
All right.
THE CLERK:
All rise, please.
(Proceedings recessed at 5:05 p.m.)
FO
10
11
12
TH
E
13
14
15
OF
16
17
18
22
FR
23
IE
21
ND
19
20
24
25
We'll see you at 8:30.
17:05:07
1
C E R T I F I C A T E
GB
OW
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OM
2
3
4
5
6
7
I, GARY MOLL, do hereby certify that I am duly
appointed and qualified to act as Official Court Reporter for
the United States District Court for the District of Arizona.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing pages constitute
FO
10
a full, true, and accurate transcript of all of that portion of
12
the proceedings contained herein, had in the above-entitled
13
cause on the date specified therein, and that said transcript
14
was prepared under my direction and control.
TH
E
11
16
17
DATED at Phoenix, Arizona, this 23rd day of April,

2015.
18
22
FR
23
IE
21
ND
19
20
24
25
OF
15
s/Gary Moll

Melendres # 1021 - 2015-04-22 Transcript REDACTED Melendres, Et Al., v. Arpaio, Et Al., Evidentiary Hearing Day 2 - 01

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Melendres # 1021 - 2015-04-22 Transcript REDACTED Melendres, Et Al., v. Arpaio, Et Al., Evidentiary Hearing Day 2 - 01

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286

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

Manuel de Jesus Ortega

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE G. MURRAY SNOW

(Evidentiary Hearing Day 2, pages 286-511)

Proceedings taken by stenographic court reporter

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 287

Cecillia D. Wang, Esq.

Stanley Young, Esq.

Daniel J. Pochoda, Esq.

Michele M. Iafrate, Esq.

For the Defendant Maricopa County:

For the Defendants:

Andre I. Segura, Esq.

Richard K. Walker, Esq.

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 288

For the Defendant Arpaio:

For Chief Deputy Sheridan: Lee D. Stein, Esq.

Greg S. Como, Esq.

A. Melvin McDonald, Esq.

For Lieutenant Sousa:

For Deputy Chief MacIntyre: Gary L. Birnbaum, Esq.

David S. Eisenberg, Esq.

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 289

Cross-Examination by Mr. Como

BRIAN JAMES JAKOWINICZ

Direct Examination by Mr. Segura

Direct Examination by Mr. Byun

Direct Examination by Mr. Young

Direct Examination by Mr. Segura

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 290

Dkt 838-1 - Declaration of John ("Jack")

Dkt 806 - Defendant Joseph M. Arpaio and

Melendres v. Arpaio Defendants' Privilege Log

Defendants Joseph M. Arpaio and Maricopa County 295

E-mail from Larry Farnsworth/Deputy Chief

Sealed portion of status conference transcript

MCSO Memorandum to Steve Bailey from Dave

MCSO Memorandum to Brian Jakowinicz from Glen

MCSO Memorandum to Steve Bailey from Brian

Spreadsheet showing MCSO personnel issued

E-mail to Jerry Sheridan from Joe Sousa re

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 291

E-mail to Brian Sands and Frank Munnell from

MCSO News Release, First Time: ICE Refuses to

MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Deputies Execute

Dkt 842 - Defendants Joseph M. Arpaio and

Illegal Immigration Operation Stat/Worksheet

Incident Report, IR 12-171046 dated 9/21/2012

MCSO News Release, First Time: ICE Refuses to

Dkt 948 - Expedited Motion to Vacate Hearing

Dkt 880 - Order to Show Cause dated 2/12/2015

MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Office Stops 28

MCSO News Release, Sheriff Arpaio Continues

CV07-2513, Melendres v. Arpaio, 4/22/15 Evidentiary Hrg 292

MCSO News Release, Sheriffs Deputies Discover

MCSO News Release, 2nd Time ICE Refuses to

MCSO News Release, Seven Booked on Human

MCSO Press Releases for 2013

MCSO Press Releases for 2011 from Internet

MCSO Press Releases for 2012 from Internet