OROP programme on NDTV on 12 Sep 2010

Dear Brig Kamboj,

Sorry for late reaction; had been pre-occupied on something urgent.
Have read with interest comments by various ESM on the NDTV programme. While there has
been positive appreciation by majority, a few have expressed dissatisfaction; wonder what were
the expectations of the latter.
It was nice of General Oberoi to have intimated in advance that the programme stands edited to a
great extent. Inspite of the editing, what came out was excellent. The aim of creating awareness
among public, specially the younger generation, regarding ill treatment being meted out to armed
forces was, by and large, achieved.
There is no guarantee, however, whether it would make any dent on the mind-set of bureaucrats,
few of whom seem to have sworn that they would not let OROP come thru.
Notwithstanding, we need to follow Gita to do our duty without caring for the outcome. I think,
IESM deserves appreciation for relentlessly following this path; God will help.
Looking at the event dispassionately, all the speakers were at their best in their assigned roles.
Gen Kadyan & Gen Oberoi stood out by showing grace in remaining calm, yet conveyed the
message very effectively and meaningfully.
Kudos to Shri Rajeev Chandrashekhar MP, who in my opinion, could be termed as "Star
Performer". Single handedly, he is proving a big force behind us; we owe our gratitude to him and
should wish him "All the best in life".
Kicks to Capt Davar, who seems to be the biggest stooge of AICC. Looks like, he is brainwashed;
wonder whether he served in Indian Army or some other one. Less said about him, the better.
Mrs Indu Liberhan and Prof Ajay Shah appeared to have been given a mandate or hired by the
bureaucracy to tow their line and, let us admit, they did their job as they were expected.
Incidently, Mrs Liberhan is not from IAS; she is most likely from IDAS cadre. In mid 90s(before my
retirement), we had stayed in the same block in Kaka Nagar and she appealed to us as a good
human being. Probably, she was now cast in a different role by the IAS, who like to fire from
others' shoulders.
Cmde Uday Bhaskar's interjection was really superb; Mr Manvender Singh, Capt Sidhu, Lt
Pandey etc and the younger generation added spice to the show.
Last but not the least, it could not have been possible without Ms Burkha Dutt; she is really too
good and adorable; God bless her!!!
Let us now think of what next?
Regards.
T Pannu
Air Cmde (Retd)

Dear Brigadier Kamboj,

Please refer to your remarks –
"(It is high time that IESM create a cell for ‘RTI’ and ‘Starred Questions’.
These two are very powerful tools of democracy.
Number of times this suggestion has come up, but IESM has not acted on it.
The forthcoming meeting of the IESM Core Group should discuss this issue and finalise the
arrangements.
It is not necessary that all tasks must be performed by the Executive Committee of the IESM.
Kindly consider co-opting other ESM and form this Cell. - Chander Kamboj)"
I have already asked following information through my application under RTI Act with reference to
Report of Committee of Secretaries on One Rank One Pension and Related issues –
1. Para 6.9 of the Report. Since financial effects must have been worked out based on number of
pensioners, number of Lt Generals and equivalent in the other two services, Additional
Secretaries, Chief Commissioners(Income Tax and Customs), Additional DGs of Police and
equivalent civilian officers affected by grant of higher pension may be informed for each category
separately.
2. Para 6.10. Financial implications on recurring expenditure for each category mentioned above
may be informed.
3. Para 9. Financial implications on account of arrears due to bringing Lt Generals and
equivalent to grade 67000-79000 may be provided separately for all categories mentioned above.
I have also asked how many Major Generals and there equivalents in the other two services,
Joint Secretaries and equivalent of categories mentioned above were drawing pension as on 31
Dec 1995.
I have also enquired as to the pension fixation formula for Defence officers and civil services
officers in 1960? How was it related to maximum pay of the rank? Was pension of civil services
officers also fixed based on maximum of pay or as a percentage of pay at the time of retirement.
My application was addressed to CPIO Cabinet Secretariat as the Committee was headed by
Cabinet Secretary. He forwarded the same to CPIO Deptt of ESW and Deptt of Expenditure.
Deptt of Expenditure referred it back to Deptt of ESW stating that they did not provided
Secretariat to the Committee. Deptt of ESW again referred it back to Deptt of Expenditure who
have again sent it back to Deptt of ESW.
Only Deptt of Pension and Pension Welfare, Ministry of Personnel Public Grievances and
Pensions, to whom query was referred to by Deptt of ESW, has provided information for civil
service officers. As per the information, with effect from 22 April 1960, those who had completed
10 years or more of service were entitled for pension. Pension was 10/60 of average emoluments
but not exceeding 2000 a year, after completion of 10 years of service, 24.5/60 of average
emoluments but not exceeding 4900 a year on completion of 24.5 years of service, going up to
30/60 of average emoluments but not exceeding 5000 a year for those retiring after 25 or more
years of service. Other Departments to whom Deptt of ESW had transferred the points raised by
me, have either referred it back to them or given insufficient information. For example, PCDA
Allahabad has said they do not have any information about number of Major Generals and
equivalent.
I have already preferred first appeal to the Appellate Authorities of CGDA and Deptt of ESW.
Regards
AVM RP Mishra

Dear Veterans,
like most of you I also watched the NDTV prog on OROP.
I have only the follwing arguments to support our case –
1 OROP is a commitment of the successive govts and the civil servants should find the ways and
means to implement this rather than put legal and other obstacles to it.
2 when the lady gave the argument that OROP is tenable for the Secretaries to the govt of India
because they get fixed pay and not to others because they have a scale of pay and it would
tantamount to revising their salaries from retrospective effect (when they were not in service), our
argument should have been---- aren't the fixed pays of the old retired secretaries also being
revised retrospectively (when they were not in service) to enable them to get the same pension
as the recently retired ones? How is that legally tenable?
Jai Hind
K L Malhan
Rear Admiral (Retd)

Re: OROP PROGRAMME ON NDTV 24X7, FEED BACK

Dear Kamboj
Having watched the pgme dispassionately as possible have the following
comments/observations:
Was a predeominantly Army oriented panel. The only non Army person was Cmde Uday Bhaskar
who is a PRO originally and now an expert on all military matters except pensions. Would have
been more successful if Admiral Arun Prakash was in the panel.
The trend veered to SENTIMENT of the Armed Forces and the to be realistic and legally correct.
The need to give additional compensation to the Armed Forces was also heghlighted by the
bureaucracy .
The statement that JCOs and ORs are already on OROP and covers about 95% of the Armed
forces is partially true and went largely unchallenged.
The statement that legally pension being a portion of the emolument structure and could not be
given legally to past pensioners when the pay scales of which pension is a part was
unchallenged.Likewise the Nakra judgement. All that was said can be categorised as
SENTIMENTAL.
Barkha Dutt/We The People are smart. If the ESM fielded a retired Vice Chief it was equally
balanced by a retired Defence Secretary.
The pgmme concluded with Barkha stating that better compensation was reqd for the Forces.
The postive point was the airing of such a show on OROP and bringing the the issue on the front
burrner.
Regards
Vice Admiral Barin Ghose (Retired)
Head Pension Division
Indian Ex Servicemen Movement

Chander,
Our case on the Barkha Dutt program on NDTV was well presented.
One point though; however strongly we may feel on the 'honour' and sentimental reasons, we
need to be hard headed also. For example, issue of retirement age was taken up but not
forcefully enough.
It is not only OR but JCOs and specially officers also retire at early age not because they are not
good enough but because pyramid is very steep due to operational reasons, structure etc.
We could work out statistics to show how it affects their pension vis a vis the civilians. I hope we
will get what we deserve viz OROP.
Regards.
DN (Maj Gen DN Varma, Gurgaon)

OROP Program on NDTV

Dear Chander,
Watched NDTV program with interest. Overall it off well but I am sharing a few points that came
to my mind to make our case more effective for future. Here I would like to point out the
contrarian views expressed by Prof Shah et al.

Some of the points raised by them are as follows:

1. A younger person would always earn more than an older person
(We should not labour on this point any more. This is the only sensible sentence spoken by
Professor Shaw during the entire show. It was a very unwise question raised by some one –
without thinking of the reply he would get; lacked forethought – person deserved this reply.
2. Professor spoke like a robot programmed by IAS, with no heart and no brain of his own. The
programmer of the Robot does not know the difference between Fire Brigade and Army. What a
shame. – Chander Kamboj)
3. Armed forces personnel signed a contract before joining service on a voluntary basis. They are
governed by that contract and now cannot claim any special privilege due to risk factor.
4. There is nothing extraordinary about army risk since many other services like fire fighting
personnel also face risks
5. Government is fully honoring the 6 CPC formula for fixation of pensions. If retired secretaries
get 50 % of pay as pension, that is because they are on a fixed pay.
6. Though government is committed to a separate pay commission for the services, you have to
wait another nine years for it take effect (six years before it is convened and another three for its
implementation)
7. There is no legal obligation of government to grant OROP
8. OROP would be disastrous for government finances since others would also demand it
9. There is nothing unique about armed forces as they are just one category of government
servants
10. The present UPA government has done more for the services that any previous
administration
I feel we should put our heads together and find suitable answers to these and many other
questions that may be raised as also as to why OROP should only be for the services. I am afraid
emotional arguments would have limited utility and not carry much weight with so called neutral
audiences
Kind regards
Maj Gen Vinod K Khanna

Respected Sir,
I suggest that since Brig KP Singh Deo has not watched the NDTV program,he could be
requested to watch it on the following link and see for himself how confidently that pseudo Capt
Davar has put across the Govt points of view.If these are his personal views, he has to be
corrected.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348

I wish a speaker from IESL was also there to confirm if JCOs and ORs were happy with removal
of 13 years old disparity (Termed as OROP by the Govt). May be it was pointed out and edited.
A rejoinder from IESL on the statement of Daver would be more appropriate.
The above mentioned link must be forwarded to max MPs and civilian friends.
LONG LIVE IESM
Regards.
Lt Col SS Bhatia, VETERAN

Respected Sir,
I suggest that since Brig KP Singh Deo has not watched the NDTV program,he could be
requested to watch it on the following link and see for himself how confidently that pseudo Capt
Davar has put across the Govt points of view.If these are his personal views, he has to be
corrected.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/we-the-people-war-veterans-still-fighting/163348

HONOUR= CONSTITUTION GUARANTEE EVERY INDIAN TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY

Lt Gen Raj Kadyan/ IESM
Dear Sir,
1. I would like to say that your assessment of NDTV discussions on OROP is conservatively near
realism. And that makes you more determined to pursue single mindedly the IESM aim.
2. However please permit to speak on one point about the paramouncy of honour in Armed
Forces which has cropped up in Emails. I have no legal background what so ever but in my two
hours of thumping through the pages of our Constitution, I was surprised to see that only few
linesare devoted to Armed Forces and that too partly to abridge our fundamental rights. But I do
not recall word honour embedded there. But what the Fundamental Rights included is for Indian
to live with-Dignity. Which if roughly translated would mean "IZZAT" and which we use very
frequently in our defence parlance.
But Armed Forces fight for honour of the Country but they are not expected to fight for their
honour.
3. If that be so then what ESM are asking is--IZZAN-MAAN-SMAAN- which
is our fundamental right and cannot be abridged.
You may like to look into. There are many legal luminaries in ESM ranks
who can throw better light.
4. Lastly please permit me again to suggest that Office Bearers of IESM
may like to acquire an official copy of Constitution and keep within reach. And no harm in leafing
through. No harm in having legal sense because IESM has to take care of that front too.
With best regards,
Cdr Prem P Batra Retired.

Dear General Kadyan,

The views expressed by Captain Davar were NOT his views. He was mischievous and self
indulging in denigerating the armed forces. I am not very sure if ever he was an army officer? Or
was he cashiered or dismissed? He was telling all lies with impunity. He is a blur on Indian Army.
We all may have dissentions but we would never denigerate our great armed force which we all
served once.
In fact having seen the other side I would like to once again be an army officer in my next life. I
was only sorry that you permitted Davar to carry on with his lies and bluff.
With kind regards,
MG Kapoor

we the people-ndtv, 12 sept 10

dear ms barkha,
let me first thank u for airing a programme on ur channel so important to all pre 2006
exservicemen against the injustice and inequity in grant of one rank one pension (OROP).i must
say without any equivocation that that u have always been the champion in the past to bring out
the aberrations/shortcomings in our political /social system and proper governance of the country
in the various facets of life and held in high esteem for ur fearless and dispassionate approach to
conduct the debate proceedings and to draw correct conclusions.
i am sending u my sincere comments on public debate on 'ONE RANK ONE PENSION'on 12
sept10.
(a) senior lady representing MOD said that there are legal hassels to implement OROP.i may
mention that she has been less than honest to rebutt our claim for OROP. if that was true then
how it is that MOD is losing court cases one after another.they have lost in high court/supreme
court/aft chandigarh/ aft delhi. all their arguments were rejected and it is in deed sad that they are
not even implemented the judgememt dated 04 march in case of maj gens which we had won 5
months back. that is the respect they show to court decisions.what else a soldier can do except
return his medals and sign his represntation in blood and burn his artificial limbs.in fact it is to his
credit that despite utter disregard and balatantinsensitivies shown to him he still remains loyal and
law abiding unlike his civilian counterpart who burn govt properties and national assets
(b) she gave no answer to points raised by capt sidhu who was made to suffer for years and
remarks made by hon'able SUPREME COURT- 'DO NOT TREAT DEF OFFICERS AS
BEGGARS' DID NOT TOUCH her COMPUCTION.
(c) remark was made that that honour and pay/ pension are not linked. i was surprised to hear
such a comment from pinky Anand a very distiguished person and other learned professor of
social sciences.if that is fact then why the FUNTAMENTAL RULES have made by the govt
wherein it is provided that in case senior will get less junior.these rules have been obviously
framed to ensure administrative fairplay and just properiety.
(d)the argument given for justifying parity in pension between pre 2006 and post 2006 cabinet
secy and secy level is devoid of justifiable reasons.what sort of natural justice exists in our
country when priciple of parity is applied to the highest in echelon like cabinetsecy. secy their
equivalents, MLAS, MPS AND JUDGES OF HIGH COURTS AND SUPREME COURTS AND
DENIED TO THE LOWER MOST . let the highest in the ladder set an example of integrity
,rectitude and probity and not abuse their position to gain unfair advantage.
2. i wish to state that whole debate became unfocussed. emotions got the better of real
substance of the issues .govt officials did not come with proper facts of the case.neither did their
arguments to explain the case carried any legal weight.other participants merely expressed their
views without actually covering/analysing the legal/admin aspects of the case. final outcome was
inconclusive. i personally feel those who fought the case in the courts and won the same should
have been also involved in the debate for fruitful discussion and proper appreciation of the issues
involved.
3. notwithstanding the entire ESM fraternity is grateful to u for giving OROP -a national
perspective and bringing to the attention of those instrumentality of the state who deal with it.
with regards,
Air Vice Mshl J K Pathania (retd), UYSM AVSM VSM M&D
Member Supreme Court Bar Association
Former Senior Officer Administation, Hq Wester Air Comd
Former Director Pay Pension And Regulation -Air Hq
Crusader Against Injustice And Inequity- Maj/Gen Case
( WON ON 04 MAR 10 AT AFT CHANDIGARh)

NDTV PGMME ON OROP

Dear Barkha,
The views of RDOA follow:
The NDTV telecast on OROP was a big ‘Façade’ missing the main objective of ‘One Rank One
Pension’. The debate spiraled to a tangent to issues like honour, izzat, compensation package,
disability pension, to downgrading of armed forces to the level of fire fighters and men working in
mines. Are the armed forces headed that way ?

Disability pension and compensation package are by themselves major separate issues which
need independent debates. Within disability pension there are number of issues/concessions
which have been given to central govt civilians employees but not extended to the armed forces.
The armed forces personnel are defenitely at greater risk of disability than their civilian counter
parts.

As of now the compensation package does not cater for early retirement and alternative
employment till the age of 60 yrs nor adequate pension to compensate for loss of earning due to
early superannuation.

The concept of one rank one pension which in simple terms means “ that two persons retiring in
the same rank with same length of service should get the same pension irrespective of the date
of retirement”. Nobody raised questions as to why OROP is not administrativelyfeasible as said
by the committee of secretaries or why OROP cannot be given?.

In a system which is rank based how can a Brig who retired after 2006 draw more pension than a
Maj Gen who retired prior to 1/1/2006. It amounts to undermining the rank of Maj Gen. Will the
babus accept a Jt Secy/Dir drawing more pension than a Addl Secy? The answer is a big NO
then how come for the armed forces the pensions are forced down. The pensions are not being
implemented inspite of the Supreme Court orders. The Ex Defence Secretary should have
answered that.

Capt Dawar should have been asked as to why OROP has not been implemented inspite of it
being recommended by the Standing Committeee on Defence since 1983 and forming part of the
political manifesto of all political parties with assurances both outside and inside the parliament
that OROP would be given. There should have been Power point slides to educate the people of
the nation as to what really OROP means, what are the pension differences in ranks pre and post
2006 and not comparing a soldier to a fireman entering a building on fire. For those who have
doubts, 26/11 is a stark naked reality. One can see who enters in line of ‘fire’

A valuable 30 min were wasted on irrelevant issues not pertaining to OROP. The show was
totally unlike Barkha.
Thanking you
With regards
Secy RDOA
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