DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

RECORD OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN MAJOR GEORGE O'KANE

and
MR MIKE PEZZULLO
in the presence of
CDRE MIKE SMITH
LTCOL ABBOTT
MS MIGNON PATTERSON
Note: Where the tape of this interview was indistinct for transcription purposes,
the llotetaker and Major O'Kane have agreed additional words for this final
record of interview.
CONDUCTED AT
ON MONDAY, 7
TH
APRIL, 2004
0' Kane-07!06!2004 Tape 1 aLl
Pezzullo: Now, we - just for the purpose of describing the nan'ative, or the
discussion on this tape, present in the room at 1535 on Monday, in June, are Major
GMge'O'Kane,MtkePeziUl16,"'Head,IhITas!rucrure,"" Coirim6dor'e "Mike'" Sinith,
Lieutenant Colonel Roy Abbott and Ms Mignon Patterson. We've just gone through a
process of speaking to the interview guidance sclipt that is going to be made available as
part of the report, and we've been through a process which has been summarised
through hand-recorded notes of general discussion and general questions ii'om George
O'Kane, responded to - principally by Mike Pezzullo and we're just starting the drill
down questions and George was jllst indicating that, absent a detailed the diary, the rest
of our proceedings, and the fact that we've got the documentation that might refTesh
some of his memOlY - that the balance of the discussion will obviollsly be based on his
recall. Thanks, George,
MAJ O'Kane: We should probably go 'round now an identify each of our voices for
the purpose the recording.
M1' Pezzullo: Yep. Yes, indeed.
Ms Pattersoll: Mignon Patterson.
CDRE Smith: Mike Smith.
MAJ O'Kane: George O'Kane,
LTCOL Abbott: Roy Abbott.
M1' Pezzullo: And Mike Pezzullo, who was the previous speaker. Okay. Now,
George, you were just making the point - high tempo, no diary, you're now going off
memOiY- Do you want to just close off that point?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, so I just like - wanted to maJee that point and also, once again,
you know, my involvement in tbe detainee operations was not the only tbing I was doing
over there and that that may not be apparent ii'om the focus of things at the moment.
But I've also brought - I also brought a fair - some of the material I've prepared for tbe
estimates over the last week - - -
S. '22
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MAJ O'Kane: So, there was a little bit of that mnning around fi'om time to time. But
really, there was no intent to shield us, as such, though they'd just discreetly move
outside, for example, when they were talking about Saddam Hussein for example, which
was a NOFORN issue ....
Mr Pezzullo: Anything associated with the apprehension and detention Hussein?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. There were issues that I think - you're going to be talking you
know, US only fumy stuff, it was, you lmow - one or two of my US colleague did
outside the internal doorway, or outside the building, you know, to talk to Colonel
Warren about an issue that was US only, but I don't have any problem per se, but they
have got their issues that we deal with.
Mr Pezzullo: But I presume, George, that's just not simply shielding it from an
Australian Major and a British Lieutenant Colonel; I'm presuming that some matters are
so sensitive that just general "need to lmow" you know - - -
MAJ O'Kalle: Exactly. Exactly.
Mil:' Pezzullo: Is that a fair comment?
MAJ O'Kalle: That's a fair comment, yeah. But, you know, 90 per cent of the time it
would -you know, it was, you lmow, open and discuss issues and promote a good
working envirorunent.
Mr Pezzullo: I feel I need to invite myself to ask you this question at this point,
because it's critical. You lmow, like, we understand the terms of this meeting.
Discipline issues are flying around. It's a busy, interactive office. Yeah, taken there are
some issues about, "Whoops, you've got a Brit and an Australian here." You can refer
to ...
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. There's you know, 15 of us -15 to 20 of us in that office - --
MI' Pezzullo: Sure. Yeah. No, I understand. I understand.
MAJ O'Kane: about twice the size of this room.
O'Kane-07/06/2004 Tape 1 of3
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. No, I've got a sense of it. There are some sensitivities and
fiustrations, but not necessaIily because you're foreign nationals, 'cause there are other
matters that the Americans compartment, or at least keep close, even from other
Americans and possibly, you know, reference there to very sensitive issues about
Sadaam H1.isseifCCouTdTask yo\ithis question, ariefI'd ask you to just - and I know
you're going off memory and r respect the fact that we're sort of hitting you a bit cold -
issues of discipline are within the province or the jurisdiction of this staff JAG - staff
yeah, office, but you don't directly work on it because of you're a foreign national and,
you lmow, their climinal discipline - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Not my area, yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: - - - code and stuff - and your focus wasn't to do with any financial
claims, it was the other side - the Ops law type ShIff, or law of armed conflict and
whatnot - --
MAJ O'KalIe: Yes.
Mr Pezzullo: Could I ask you this question; prior to your departure on - 10
th
February
was our last working day, I think - in that discipline area, did any issue arise, to your
knowledge, to you certain lmowledge - there's been a lot of press speculation about
"Oh, Aussies were aware of rumours and innuendo" - I ask you this question - to your
certain knowledge did any issues arise regarding disciplinary action that the US was
going to be required to take, or, indeed, was - had underway in relation to staff at the
prison?
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Yes. This was - this relates directly to the discovery- and l'd
say it'd be crucial to the discovery of the photographic evidence referred to. Now, I tie
this down - this day down - I had a - like a three sentence conversation with the Army
Captain who was posted there .- on tours out there - you know, very early on in my
deploymeut - - -
Mr Pezzullo: So, was he - sorry, was he a JAG - in the staff JAG?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, he IUns the JAG cell at Abu Ghraib ..
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry. So, he's at the gaol, he's not in Headqualiers at 7?
MAJ O'Kane: No. I-1e's out in a separate JAG cell called a Magistrate's cell at Abu
Gbraib.
Mr Pezzullo: JAG cell, okay.
MAJ O'Kane: And it's staffed by a number of - yeah, number of JAG officers from 5
Corps who are out there - - . - -
0'j(ane-07/06/2004 14

Tape 1 of3
Mr Pezzullo: From 5 Corps, but are they under Warren - so, these are directly under -
MAJ O'i{ane: Yes, we are all under the SJA, Colouel Warren.
Mr Pezzullo: So, they're like out posted, are they?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, they're out posted to Abu Ghraib - - -
Mr Pezzullo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - their office.
Mr PezzlIlIo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kane: And they weren't always out there, but as we've got into more detainee
operations and we're required to have people out there so the process works and the -
you know, the forms that need to be served on the detainees - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Sure. Sure.
MAJ 0 'Kane: Try and get the file ready for their reviews as required by the Geneva
Convention when the files came in and they'd recommend then, you know, people for
release or for continued intemment
MI:' Pezzullo: So, what you're saying - I think what I'm hearing you say is that
because the tempo of that is sllch it's worthwhile having - so you're not driving around
all the time - - -
MAJ O'Kane: It's a dangerous place to be driving around - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Dangerous place to be - so you have an out posted cell, light.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, and work out there. There's, yeah, roughly - off the top of my
head - four officers, couple of interpreters and a couple of NCOs that work out there.
Mr Pezzullo: So, in a sense they're your colleagues, but they are outpost from your
cell .... - - -
MAJ O'Kane: That's right. They rotate people 'round you know, some - the Captain
will work in our office for about two months and then he'd go out to Abu Ghraib ...
Mr Pezzullo: I intenupted you SOITy. You had a three sentence conversation.
MAJ O'Kane: That's right - this is in mid January. He - in fact, I think he was -1
think he was actually on his way out as part of this turnover of personnel - he was back
O'Kane-07/06/2004
Tape I of3
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in the Headquarters before leaving thea(Te and I remember like, walking past him and
either in the office -- you lmow, said, "Hello. Haven't seen you for a couple of weeks.
Arc you well?" aod he said to me - he said words to the effect o ) ~ "Has Colonel WalTcn
spoken to you about, you know, these allegations involving internees at Abu Ghraib.
You !mow, apparently they found some photographs" to which I said, "Well, is it being
investigated?" He said, "Yeah, the ClD are investigating it" .... -
CDRE Smith: CID?
!VIAJ 0 'Kane; Criminal Investigation Division.
CDRE Smith: Are they pm1 of this JAG system?
MAJ O'Kane: 111ey're a part of 5 Corps. They like your Military Police h)vestigators.
cOlm Smith: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: "Yeah, they're onto it," aod I've said, "Oh, fine." Now, this is in the
context of things happening daily that require investigation.
CDRE Smith: Indeed. I'm sure that's the case. I'm sure that's the case. Cm) I just
tease that out a bit, though?
MAJO'Kane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: The Captain who -- if you eml recall his name it'd be helpful.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeal1, I prefer not to at this stage.
CDRE Smith: That's fine. Yeah, I was just inviting you, but that's not a problem.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, I know.
CDRE Smith: There was almost ao intonation, or 311 implication in the way that yon
descried that t11at you almost thought, "Maybe George is across it. Has Warred spoken
to you about this?" This was news to you. Like, you were just a blank - your mind was
blank on the issue, I presume.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. I hac! not heard about it previously - --
CDRE Smith: You thought, "What allegations?"
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, that's it.
CDRE Smith: Okay.
. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - . - - - - - -
a 'Kane .. 07/0612004 16 Tape 1 of3
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,
MAJ O'Kane: But I - you know, r was told it was in hand - - -
CDRE Smith: But you diligently - as a good honourable Australian officer - said, you
know, "Is it in hand? Is - - -
j\1AJ O'Kane: In hand yeah, It was the idea that you know, it's being investigated.
CDRE Smith: And you remember quite distinctly - - -
MAJ 0 'Kane: I remember distinctly - - -
CDRE Smith: - - - saying to him, you know, "Is it in hand?" and the response was?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, it was a - "Yeah. Yes, it is under investigation - you know, elD
are investigating it." Now, the only reason he mentioned it to me was because of my
involvement with the IeRe, which - - -
Mr Pezzullo: And we'll come to that in the narrative, I guess. But that extended some
months back because you're talking mid January.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, no, no, only a few weeks before. Only a few weeks before - - -
Mr Pezzullo: A few weeks before.
MAJ O'f(ane: - - - only two weeks beforehand.
Mr Pezmllo: All right. We might just leave - I'm sorry, I've taken you down a rabbit
warren there, simply we coming out of Min's narrative. But we were talking about
information ..... (tape ends) ....
End of side one, tape one
Side two, tape one
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. So, you said mid January you sort of bumped into each other in
the corridor. Is this your visit associated in early January with the JeRC delegation?
MAJ O'Kanc: Yes. Yeal1.
1111' Pezzullo: So, probably you're looking at the week of 4-8 January, I'd say,
wouldn't you?
MAJ O'Kane: SOlry, that's the JCRe visit to Abu Ghraib. Yeah, 4 to 8 January.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, no wonies. And you reckon it might've occurred at that point?
l\1AJ O'Kane: What?
0' Kane-07 106/2004 17

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Tape 1 of3
Mr Pezzullo: Bumping into the Captain.
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, I bumped into him at Camp Victory - --
Mr Pezzullo: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1\1AJ O'Kane: Yeah, Camp Victory
Mr Pezzul1o: Camp Victory - Camp Victory - - -
MAJ O'Kane: - - - at the main office.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm sorry.
1I1AJ O'Kal1e: Now, I've got down here the 15
th
January - on or about that date. It
might've be day before or it might be the 15
th
..... (indistinct) .....
1I1r Smith: And Camp Victory, just remind me, was - --
MAJ O'Kane: Sorry. That's where CJTF 7 was based.
1111' Smith: Oh, that's Headquarters.
MAJ 0 'Kane: The Headquarters.
1111" S,nith: Okay. Right. So, this out posted officer you bumped into. Great. Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: I ran into him as I was walking out of the office at Camp Victory - l-
am not positive, but I assume it was due to him being posted at that stage, was back 111
Camp VictOlY at1d out process of Theatre - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. 11Jree sentence conversation and the phrase used IS "abuse
allegations" and that's it.
MAJ O'Kalle: 1
0' Kane-07 106/2004 Tape I of3
1113 Pattcl'son: Yeah. No, I was just - that's part of - when I was, you know, just
talking about what jobs, you know, you were doing there and we have spoken - but if
you could just give us a brief description of the SOli of things that you focused on.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Sure. Okay. The main focus in the main jobs - I mean, we've got a
couple of us working in -the Operations law cell, the JAG office - 'cause I was, well,
the only - aside from my British 05 colleague, I was the only the Australian, or only
Coalition Major equivalent, they thought it would make good sense to put me into -
having been aware of Coalition type issues - remembering that's there's two Coalition
Brigades - divisions, I should say - in Iraq, one British led and one Polish led - so,
what my main - I was like the SJA rep on the Coalition issues but, on top of that -
because that was probably like a full time job - on top of that I helped out with any
other operational issues that happened to be on that day, depending on, for example -
just on who's around - when someone comes in and goes - when someone fyom
plmming branch comes in and says we need an SJA rep for a pllliilling group and you go,
"Well OK" - because em"ly in the morning I was the only one there. My colleagues
would all work 'til like 1, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning.
CDRE Smith: You'd go off to - - -
MAJ O'Kane: I'd go off probably about, you lmow, 10, 11 o'clock at night. But I'd
be in there at 8 o'clock in the morning. And we had a lot - we had representatives in the
Joint Operations Centre 24 hours a day doing shift work, but the main office - it did
work all day, basically going to late at night. And, yeah, the Coalition operations, I was
like the main point of contact. But out of that I also assisted with detainee operations. I
wasn't the main - I didn't have the lead on detainee operations that was another officer
Mr PezwUo: Who was - how - - -
MAJ O'Kane: That was another US Anny Major.
lVIIi' Pezzullo: So, who s that man? Who was - and a Major?
MAJ O'Kallc: Yeah. I - if I could just point out here, Mike, I'm not intending to give
up the nmues of these people because I don't lmow where the inforn1ation will end up
and I'm not prepared to put them into the public spotlight and although they may be
named by another source, which I know but I don't want to be the one to do that.
0' Kane-07 106/2004
1
i
Mr Pezw!Jo: I've got a feeling that the US Congress will attend to that.
MAJ O'Kane: Maybe, maybe not. I think - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Well, I suspect.
MAlO'Kane: I think if they did ..... (indistinct) ..... a fair bit up until now - - -
M'r Pezzullo: Right. Sure.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - so, yeah - so, there's another US Army Major - --
Mr Pez:w!!o: It's only a task, though, matc. It's not as though - you aren't the Ole
detention practices.
MAJ O'Kane: No, not the Ole of the detention operations area, but I help out. You
see, you know, it was a very busy job - the detainee operations. He was preparing files
for release or to try and get a hold of the whole detainee issue you know, several
thousand detainees.
Mr Pezzullo: Sure. But how can you - further to Min's sort of question about
describing your work - I mean, we generate a super human people in the ADF. How can
you sort ofnaturally just slide in - ifhe's not available to go a meeting, I mean, how can
you be situationally aware enough just to be able to kind of pick up a task like that?
MAJ O'Kane: Because you have to pick up and run with things at the drop of a hat, a
lot of crisis planning - - -
Mil" Pezzullo: That highly impresses me, I must say .
. - - - ~ - - - . - . - - ..- - - . - . - - . - ~ .. - - - - - - - . - - - . - - . - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - . - - - - - - - - , , - - . - - - - - " - - ... c'
L __ .. _ .. _. ___ . ___________ ... ___ .. ________ ._ .. __ . _______ _
-
o 'Kane-07i06f2004 20 Tape I of3
\ ~ - - - - - - - .
-- . ~ - - - -
lVIr Pezzullo; Well, call I ask you another question - and it gets back to the question
that I put to you before - other than you and the Captain having this sort of passing -
sounded almost like a hall conversation - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. It was. It was stand - I think I was on the way to a meeting or
something out of the office - --
Mr Pezzullo: And you reckon that's around 15
th
Janumy.
MAJ O'Kane: I thought it was later but, going back, having prepared the stuff -
infonnation for the Senate Estimates, probably 14th of 15
th
January.
Mr Pezzullo: Which ties in with when the US initiated the criminal investigation.
guess the question I've got that's in my mind - yep.
(Irrelevant conversation)
Mr Pezzullo: Hang on, I just want to put this question, please. I just want - given -
I've got a really vivid picture here of the sardine conditions and the fact that, you know,
you work and perform the hours. Subsequent, though, to 14th 15
th
January - and I really
want to rack - I really would like you to rack your brains to see if you can't jag this part
- you then march on or about the lOth Squadron Leader - - -
0' Kane-07 10612004 Tape 1 of3
--,
MAJ O'Kane:
Mr Pezzullo: - - - \ S.L;\Jis with - and Min, we'll Illn this down with the leggls asto
._ .when.he.goesin.countI')T'-- Ulall of that situation We reaily need to be clear il06iICtliisfor
the Minister - do you have any recall- now, I understand these are US meetings a lot of
the stuff's coming off US systems, you haven't bought - but I really need to be precise
about this, mate, if you can indulge me - between this three sentence conversation
you've desClibed and you marching out on or about lOth February, can you remember
any furiher discussion about discipline - not of photographs, not of do gs, rapes and the
rest of it, but of disciplinary action pertaining to either the guards or the Intelligence
personnel at that prison?
MAJ O'Kane: No, but there's one other - there was one other occasion which the
topics were raised. I'm just trying to remember as well - 'cause actually - a lot of the
discipline people while they were there for about the first four months, in about the last
six to eight weeks r was there a number of - to ease congestion, a lot of them moved out
to what they call the JAG house where the court-martial - - -
Mr Pezzullo: "01e what?
MAJ O'Kane: TIle JAG house,
Mr Pezzullo: The JAG house.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - where their comi martial were being -- that's where most of them
lived - where the court-martial were being conducted - - -
CDHE Smith: When was that? When was that, do you know?
MAJ O'Kane: Probably about thc last - probably December/Janua.ry period.
JVIr Pezzullo: They were moved away n-om ..... (indistinct) ...
MAJ O'Kane: They were moved to where they were doing their work, rather than
going backwards and forw3Jds all the time.
CDRE Smith: We also need .... (indistinct) ..
IVlAJ O'Kane: Yes, there about -- probably about 1000 metres away hom CJTF 7
I-I cad quarters.
M r Pezzullo: And it's a congestion issue.
MAJ O'Kane: It was a congestion issue 2J1d it was - I'll say that it was morc
convenient for them to be where the court-martials were being run. Now, not all of -
0' Kane-07/0612004 22 Tape I of3

could've been - like, there were one or tvlo left, but pretty sure - I stopped seeing some
of them and they were .. 'cause they were the moved down to JAG house. And just
assumed that they were [wlIling - you !Q10W, they had court-martials being run and they
were down there, working. Sometimes they'd been down an.d they'd come back.
'cl:HlE Smith: With the benefit of our hindsight now, do you think that that might've
been connected to a ramp up ..... (indistinct) ..... on disciplinary activity pertaining to
that prison?
MAJ O'Kane: I think, I don't think so no, no, 'cause they had a bunch of -. you had-
they had an number of hearings running like fairly regularly and it was a convenience
issue that - that's where they needed to be - that's where they were moving to.
Mr Pezwllo: Okay. All right. Well, so - if! can re-put the question and then we will
..... (indistinct)" ... - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Well, do I need to clarify that one point for you - about the second time
..... (indistinct) ..... - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. Okay. Hit us with the second and then I just want to ask you
again about - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. The second time was about - was - and this is all on the same
day, or the day after - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, the same day of what?
MAJ O'Kalle: That I had this conversation with the orc of Magistrate's Cell.
MI" Pezzullo: Is that the Captain?
MAJ O'Kane: The Captain.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. ]'m SOITy. Yeah. Yeah.
fvJ:AJ O'Kane: Let's call him Captain S, if that helps you.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Sony, I'm just a bit confused. I can't keep up with you, mate.
The Major - you worked with a US Major who's the lead policy guy on detention, is
that light?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, he was one of the - all the branches there had a lead Major or
Lieutenant Colonel, including admin ..... (indistinct) ..... - --
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. But the guy you bumped into standing in a conidor was a
Captain, is that right?
o '](ane-07/06/2004
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23 Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, he was a Captain, yeah. He was the orc of the Magistrate's
Cell and everybody - .
I'm sorry. OkaY, Yeah. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: That's Captain S ..... (indistinct) .....
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's call him Captain S, yeah. Okay. And so he
was with the second instance?
MAJ O'Kallc: The second instance was either in my memory it was all either on the
same day or very close to it.
CDJRE Smith: Very close, yeah.
MAJ O'Kallc: We had the ICRC out brief and that what - when - after the ICRC
inspection it briefs the staff at the detention facility about what they found and it's put
into writing in a working paper or a report and - you know, several weeks down the
track. Now, we had the high value detainee inspection around about that same time -
HVD was the - that - the acronym BIAP - Baghdad International Airport.
Mr Pezzullo: The BIAP, yeah. The BIAP is where they keep the IND.
MAJ O'Kane: That's correct, yeah. 111ey've got about 100 HVDs there and they did
their - they're second inspection after the Abu Ghraib inspections in early January - 14th
January- then they left Iraq and came back a week or two later - 10 days later - to do
the HVD inspection and it was at that out brief, on the night of - sorry, not 15
th
J anumy,
the 17
th
- correct that.
Mr PezzUlllo: So, the 17
th
is what? VVhat's the lih now?
MAJ O'Kane: Actually, no, it's the 19
th
I've got wrong.
Mr PezmHo: No, you're right.
MAJ O'Kane: 19
th
Janumy. I'm looking at the date schedule ....
Mr Pezzullo: The 19
th
January is what?
MAJ O'Kane: That's the day - on or about that date, the 18
th
or 19
'h
-- that I had that
conversation with Captain S. I just looked at my schedule and I can now confirm that
date.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. Okay. YOlt reckon it's 18,19? Yeah.
0' Kane-07 106/2004
!VIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, 18, 19 January.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, which is really on the eve of the CNN disclosure.
MAJ O'Kane: Jnever saw the CNN disclosure - --
Mr Pezzullo: No, that's fine. 111at's just my -thanks, very much, mate. Very kind of
you. Well, we are going to take ..... (indistinct) .....
MAlO' Kane: It puts it in my timeline with the schedule I prepared for the DO.
Mr Pezzullo: We'll turn that off, get our brews and then we'll come back.
Record of conversation suspended
LTCOL Abbott: Tape re-starting.
Mr PezZllllo: So, 1625.
MAlO'Kane: So, the second occasion that I had an inkling about this investigation
was with the HVD out bliefon 19
th
January. Now, the ICRC were put out about that,
because they pre felTed to have their out brief the following moming - I can't remember
why, but you know some time imperative came up and we had to do it that night and - -
Mr Pezzullo: But when you said - so you had an inJcling. But what gives you this
inkling?
MAJ O'Kane: WJ1at happened was we all turned up in force - you know,. Colonel
S i-t \ turned up at the out brief a.nd after the out brief he spoke with the -- once again,
the out brief takes about, you Imow, 40 minutes, where they go through and go, "Out
with this. Not happy with that." It was - I took responsibility - my entire time in Iraq I
probably made -- to me, I made one mistake in my own mind - and I'll flag now - and
this was in relation to this pmticular inspection - inteITogation at HVD facility is mn by
the Iraqi Survey Group - the ISO - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, the ISO, that's' right. Yeal1, yeah.
l\1AJ O'Kane: Now they'd come to the co-ordination meeting and I'd liaised with
Iheir LO at our headqualters - - -
'Ir Pezzullo: With their what, salTY?
\L\.J O'K2.ne: With their Liaison officer - --
.. -------T-a]-)c-,-]-0-,..f3
M, Pezm1!o: Sorry.
MAJ O']'(alle: - - - their Liaison officer, a Navy Commarlder atCJTF 7. r t()lci him
thafthe ollf brief was going to be on this date on this time. I made an assumption that
they would send a rep along, but I didn't close that loop and, therefore, when the ICRC
were running through their out brief - - -
MI" Pezzullo: On the HVD facility? Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - on the HVD facility, we didn't have someone iom the ISO there
to answer their specific questions- - -
MI" Pezzullo: Who were actually managing the facility.
MAJ O'Kallc: Well, no, they ran the intenogation. It was run by the Military Police.
Mr PezZll.!1o: Oleay. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kaue: But the interrogation - at Abu Ohraib was run by US Army Military
Intelligence Brigade and HVD was run by the ISG.
Mr Pezzullo: And the guards were from the 800?
M.AJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. In both places. That's right.
M1" Pezzullo: In both places, under Karpinski's brigade.
MAJ O'Kane: Under her brigade, that's right.
Mi Pezzullo: Right. Okay. Okay.
IV1AJ O'Kane: So, I apologised to the ICRC for not having organised - their people
would obviously didn't want to be there, that's why they didn't tum up. But I told there
Liaison Officer that it was on and they didn't tum up.
Mr PezzuLlo: The Liaison Officer from which Armed service?
MAJ O'Kane: He was US Navy but he works for the ISG in the Headquarters over
there.
(Irrelevant conversation)
Mr Pezzu!.lo: Okay. That's - sorry, just close it off, because we want to get back to
this "inkling" of the news. A US Navy Lieutenant Commander - - -
0' Kane-07 106/2004
---------.,-
Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kane: Commander.
lYtr Pezzullo: ...... Commander is meant to be at the LO with .. who are they liaising
with? With you?
MAJ O'Kane: No yeah, between CJTP 7 and the ISG
Mr Pezzullo: Right. I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kanc: ...... and with the Iraqi Survey Group.
Mr Pezzullo: I've got you. Yep, okay.
MAJ O'Kanc: A combination- 1 had dealings with him, set up the prcinspection
meeting .. -
Mr :rezzullo: And they just didn't show.
MAJ O'Kanc: Well, they showed for that one, but they didn't show to
MI" Pezzullo: To the out bIief.
MAJ O'Kane: .. - . to the out brief.
Mr Pezzullo: Sony, you said that you flagged- and I was, you know, intrigued .. you
said there was one mistake .. - -
MAJ O'Kal1e: And that was the mistake. 1 didu't
Mr Pezzullo: You didn't ... there was a .....
]VlAJ O'Kane: ... ensure ... I didn't ensure _. I probably should have got Colonel
Warren to ... because I didn't expect them not to (urn up, but I didn't lock the gate on that
Issue.
Mr Pezzullo: Understood.
MAJ O'KallC: We didn't make sure they would turn up, that was the point.
Mr Pczzullo: Understood.
MAT O'Kanc: W11ich left some unanswered questions for the lCRC with questions
about interrogation and - yeah, without going into any more detail which is probably not
relevant Like, you Imow, they said, you know, not getting their parcels and they've got
to be checked by the ISG first - excuse me for a moment.
(Mobile telephone ringing)
o 'Kane07 106/2004 27
SIOCREI
Tape 1 of3
(
(Tape turned off)
LTCOL Abbott: Recommenccmcnt oftape.
MAJ O'Kane: Sorry, sorry.
1\111' Pezzullo; No, you're right. You're right. So - I understand that and - but there's
an inkling of abuse.
IVIAJ O'Kgnc: Yeah. it all happened after the out brief, after the out brief had finished
you know we were all miIling around. I was talking to the I - Baghdad ICRC
representative and I think we talk - it was the last time 1 was going to ... you know, we'll
see each other and we'd worked together, you know, for some time .... ..
Ml' Pezzullo: That's right, 'cause you're going soon, aren't you.
MAJ O'Kane: I'm about to go. r go, yeah, in the next couple of weeks. And, you
know, I was making sure that, you know, there were arrangements in place for them to
assist with their inspections and all that sort of stuff and Colonel Warren comes up and
he starts apologising to this Reel Cross representative ......
Mr Smi.th: Apologising?
MAJ O'Kallc: Apologising in that we've .. you know, "J need to tell you that, you
know, there's you know, we're investigating allegations of abuse" and that point J felt
that I wasn't .... this was between hiul and the ICRC rep ... but he wasn't, you know,
looking at me .... ..
Mr Pezzullo: The Colonel wasn't?
MAJ 0 'Kane: He sort of came uJl to me and he was looking at her - not interrupting,
but ......
Mr Pezzullo: But he didn't ask you to excuse yourself?
MAJ O'Kane: He didn't ask me to excuse myself, but he wasn't .. it was a discussion
with the ICRC representative ......
IVir Pezzullo: It was a bilateral discussion.
MAJ O'Kaue: It was a bilateral discussion and I and I was -I thought, oh, Well, I'll
leave them to it ......
lV11' Pezzullo: You might as well have been a column.
O'Kane-07!06!2004 28
.S.I2CREI
Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kal1e: well, I thought - well, I wasn't part of it so ....
IIJ[r Pezzullo: So what happened?
1\1AJ O'Kauc: Well, I moved away so they could have a private discussion.
M, Pezzullo: You moved away ... Okay. And so - --
111AJ O'Kauc: Okay. I assumed - but - well, I'm certain that he was telling her about,
you know, the same thing that Captain S had mentioned to me earlier that day or the day
before - that there was an abuse allegation they were investigating and I think he was
apologising - he was apologising to her that they - you know, we hadn't given emphasis
to this earlier and
[Note: From Major O'Kane - I am speculating here]--
Ml' Pezzullo: To what earlier?
MAJ O'K:me: To the allegation of mistreatment.
MJ' Pezzullo: I'm just trying to understand what he's trying to apologise for.
MAJ O'Kaue: Yeah. Well, I think he was embarrassed at the fact that US Army
soldiers are now alleged to have mistreated Iraqi detainees.
Mr PezzHiJo: But can I ask you this very carefully, though, 'cause it's relevant to my
methodology - you lmow that now because you've gone through April, photographs,
videotapes, congressional heating.
MAJ O'Kaue: Yeah.
Mr PezZIlHo: I'm not asking you to reflect back in that sense through that prism; what
is your recall - and I lmow it's difficult in a psychological sense - what do you think
contemporaneously - what did you think contemporaneously that conversation was
about, without what you know now?
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Without lmowing what I do now, there was an allegation of
mistreatment of detainees and it was being investigated - - -
Mr Pezw[lo; At the prison?
MAJ O'Kane: _. - at the prison - -
M,' Pezzullo; So, that was in your mind, you think, at the time?
-
0' Kane-O 7/06/2004 Tape 1 of3
1I1AJ 0 'Kane: Well, yeah, that was the topic, yeah, there was no other reason for
him - _ ..
1111" Pezzullo: What about the HVD facility, or in the field or - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, HVD facility is a different environment.
Mr Pezzullo: Different environment?
MAJ O'Kanc: There are a hundred persons at the HVD facility It is under the highest
scrutiny of all the detention facilities in theatre - you know, they're very, very well
controlled with a high ratio of suppoli to Iraqi detainees with their situation so there's -
well, I'd fall over backwards ifthere was anything going on there, or that would crop up
as the serious abuse we saw in those photographs whereas at Abu Ghraib 5000 or 6000,
you know, detainees are interned there.
Mr Pezzullo: Could I - this is only a Devil's advocate, though - same military police
brigade - - -
MAJ O'Kaue: Different battalion, different companies. I don't recall which MP
company that, you know, probably] 00 soldiers are dedicated to that facility. In fact,
they've got more there now.
M, Pezzullo: And what, high quality personnel? More professional .. ".(indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: They don't have the same demands on thom. They're in a very, very
secure environment as well. Unlike the Army that is undergoing frequent attack like at
Abu Ghraib.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhich is being mortared and shot at.
MAJ O'Kane: MOliared and shot at. Yeah, maybe it would'vo been - well, one of our
interpreters was wounded in a mortar attack there the week after I left.
1111' Pezzullo: Because it's some distance away, or - --
MAJ O'Kane: It's in a comer of this Sunni triangle and, you Know, there's been
scores of people killed out there - scores of people out there - - -
111, Pezzullo: Scores, yeah.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Detainees as well as several US Army personnel.
CDRE Smith: And J just, hom open sowce reporting, get the sense that that was
contributing to some of the morale issues these guys getting shot at - - -
O'!(ane-07106/2004 Tape 1 of3
- j :<:
! (. ,
SECREt "'0,,',:""'::'
MAJ O'Kal1e: I'm sure it would've, I'm sure it would've, yeah, We had real
concerns 'cause we would get reports when it was under attack - we got - we got people
we know out there that were trying to ring them to, you know, make sure they were OK
)\1)( PezzuHo: You mean this is the Navy JAG people? Yeah,
J\1AJ O'Kane: JAG people from our office out there,
Mr Pezzullo: Who defends against those aiiacks - the Military Police?
MAJ O'Kanc: Originally it was the military police but, you know, that's like people
in guard towers - but after people kept on getting killed - - -
MJr Pezzullo: They get killed? Yeah,
MAJ O'Kanc: Detainees have been killed, as well as soldiers There's one of them was
aMI - Commander's Dliver - you lmow, I used to seem him daily, After one Saturday
night, gone, Tenible, Killed,
CDRE Smith: Yeal1, Yeah, But you're contrastiug that though with - --
MAJ O'Kane: The HVD environment.
CDlRE Smith: - - - the environment ofHVD,
MAJ O'Kane: That's right. HVD is in the middle of the most secure area in Baghdad,
CDlRE Smith: In this gTcen zone thing, is it?
MAJ O'Kane: It's not in the green zone, but it's - - -
CDRE Smith: It's at the airport?
MAJ O'Kane: It's at the airport.
CDRE SHutl!: Right.
[Note: Eight sentences deleted for security reasons, These sentences have no bearing
on the report. J
LTCOL Abbott: I have a question, and it's just following on - it's just one question,
When you said that you were talking - you were talking with the ICRC representative
after the out bIief - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah, Casual conversation,
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 31 Tape I of 3
(
LTCOL AbboLt: ...... fmd Colonel - and Colonel Warren came up and engaged in
what Y01! took to be sort of an apology or whatever.
MAJ 0 'Kane: Yes. He was informing her that there was a problem ...
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah. Okay. But that .. but the conversation was bilateral ......
(over talking)
MAJ O'I(anc: "Sorry to say [;aery to say that we're investing" ......
LTCOL Abbott; Alld then commenced on a bilateral conversation with her. Did you
move away basically out of deference to a senior officer .. that he was having a
conversation, you were ajunior officer lei: him have a bit of distance and privacy?
MAJ O'I(anc: That's right. He didn't come over and say to me, "George, leave." It
was really like a very .. highest respect for Colonel Warren- you know, one of those
professional officers you deal with .. very straight down the line, but just by his body
language you can tell that - he didn't have to ask me to move away .. -
CTeOL Abbott: He wanted to have a plivate conversation.
MAJ O'I(ane: He wanted a private cOllversation.
LTCOL Abbott: Fine. That's all I wanted to ask.
(over talking)
MAJ O'Kane: If I was feeling pushy I cOi.lld probably stayed there and he may not
have asked me to move away, but 1- he had something he wanted to say privately with
the lCRC representative.
LTCOL Abbott: And oul: of deference to him you ......
MAJ O'Kane:
conversation.
And in deference to him I'll move away to let him have his
Mr Pezzullo: And we've established very clearly that we're talking about the prison ....
111AJ 0 Well, I can't imagine what else it ..... (indistinct) .....
MI' Pezzullo: Okay. Let's go .
___ __ __ __ _____ __ __ ___
0'Kane-07/06/2004 32 Tape 1 of 3

Ms Patterson: Right. TIle next issue. George, just turning to, you lmow, the drafting
of what ends up General Karlinski's response to the lCRe - were you the only person
doing that? How did that sort of come about?
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I used to be out of the office a fair bit, but I
remember it was an afternoon and -- actually, I've got the week - okay, I've got the last
week of November. In the last week of November I was sitting there, working on
something else, working on that week and an officer - I remember an officer came in
with some documentation which he gave - he or she, I can't remember who it was -
there was people walking aronnd all the time - and I sort of remember that this was
given to the Deputy Staff Judge Advocate at his desk yon lmow, you're sort of interested
in what's being brought in - 811d the Deputy Staff Judge Advocate then immediately
asked me if I would prepare ICRC reports sUlllinaries and "Can you have a go at a draft
reply". - - -
Mr k'ezzullo : You were tasked by this - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: Tasked, yeah, yeah - --
Mr Pezzullo: To do the application.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - to work up a reply. He asked- first of all he asked me to work up
a reply; later that day, or might've been the next day, he also asked me to work up a
summary of them - he might've read them first, but there could been a time delay there,
or - he might've asked me and then read them and then gave them to me, you know, 20
minutes later. But in the aftemoon they came in I remember them arriving - 'cause I
didn't actually see them until- well, they were given to me some time that afternoon but
I was working on other matters at that time, and I know he asked me to work up a reply
- draft a reply - he also me asked me to work on a summary and prepare covering letters
that went up the chain of conunand enclosing the summary and enclosing the actual
repOli.s. They went to two star Generals and they also went to Brigadier General Fast
who's the C2 she's the Senior Intelligence Officer on the Headquarters.
Mr Pezmllo: Within Seven?
MAJ O'Kanc: Within CJTF 7 - all in CJTF 7.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kane: ..... (indistinct) ..... now but - - .
LTCOL Abbott: But were you replying from a US perspective - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: - - - or from a Coalition perspective?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape I of3
MAJ O'Kane: I was replying from an 800'11 MP Brigade perspective.
My Pezztdlo:Couldlask;nowwhy is that? Thisrep"ort was addressed to whom?
MAJ O'Kane: It was addressed to Brigadier General Karpinksi.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. Right.
MAJ O'Kalle: And this is where the confusion has crept in, as well. I've called it a
report, 'cause to me it was a report on the previous inspection but, in fact, it's titled
Working Paper. I thought that was just a JCRC descriptor.
Mr Pezzullo: So, it's labelled I mean, I've seen this material, but it's labelled as
Working Paper.
MAJ O'Kallc: Working Paper, but I've always refened to it as a report.
Mr Pezzullo: I see.
MAJ O'Kane: Because to me it's a report, you know - a report on the inspection but,
in fact knowing what I know now, in fact, it was Working Paper that contJibuted to a
larger report, you know, in Febuary.
Mr Pezwllo: Which is the - oleay, that's the February IC - -
MAJ 0 'Kane: I've not seen a copy of it.
!Vfs If'atterscm: and when you - so, what liaison - you know, the sort of talk you talk to
you, you know who did you speak with to finalise that draft response. What liaison did
you undertake, was it with just Staff or with detainees as well, what was the general
response when you went out there?
MAJ O'Kaue: Okay. I don't - I did a - once again, there's no urgency on this. They
said, "No, just do this when you get time" -
Mr Pezzullo: Lead time, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - you know ..... it has to be done but it's not urgent, it's not life and
death like other matters were. (tape runs out) ....
End of tape one
[Note: The Notetaker notes that between tapes there continued to be some discussion
about:
Major O'Kane was the main person dealing with the ICRC as an overflow of
tasking from Detainee Ops.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 34 Tape 2 of3
. SECRET
;r} (f: [ .. T:' ,'"
At the same time, he is handling queries from the multinational divisions,
CMA IT and the new Iraqi Army and the rCDC Selection Board.
Once he was tasked with the draft reply at the end of November 03, Major
O'Kane hecamethe'ICRC person' who would go to meetings witllthe ICRC
at CPA, and he first became involved with the ICRC on behalf of CJTF-7 at
this stage.
Either Major O'Kane or the Chief Detention Operations when available
would go to rCRC meetings.]
Tape two
LTCOL Abbott: Tape resuming.
CDRE Smith: Okay. We were talking about the drafting of the response to this report.
MAJ O'Jl(ane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: Timeline roughly?
MAJ O'Jl(aJ1e: And then in late November it came into our office. Now, I could be
wrong, but my memory is that I wasn't involved in any ICRC meetings until aaer that
report came in. But I could be wrong. It's just that - yeah, that's what I - to me, my
memory that - that is the issue that started me off with an ICRC connection - doing
those reports and doing a draft reply.
Mr Pezzullo: And you think from late November onwards?
MAJ O'Kane: Definitely Late November. Late November onwards.
Mr lPezmllo: And that tallies np with the visit out there about 4 December, or
thereabouts?
N1AJ O'Kane: That's right, yeah. So, you know, the following week I've probably sat
down, looked at how much I could do by myself and how much I needed assistance with
!VII' Pezzullo: Go out there and got to go talk to them.
MAJ O'Kane: I've got to - well, you know got to go talk to them - I had no
knowledge about answering any of the issues they raised without talking to the, you
know, people that were out there. Bear in mind that all that visit out there - I'm not
trying to be confusing but that was my third visit out there that I'd gone to but my first
on ICRC-related business ..... (indistinct) .....
Mr Smith: So what happens then, mate?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
Ms Patterson: Okay. So, who did you see out there. " .. (indistinct). " ..
MAJf O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. So, now once again, there's an allegation of
mistreatmentinthatreport I've hot read it sinceIWas[i1Iraq. Igavea copy brlTl
lh
May - but I didn't read it again - I just gave a copy to Strategic Ops because of
presentations. I've not read it for some time. But the thing that stuck in my mind was,
you know, panties on the head was a source of humiliation and verbal abuse, laying
naked in the cell with a MRE packet covering their genitalia. Yeah, it could've been - -
Mr Pezzullo: That's like a little meal pack.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. So - --
M. Pezzullo: So, without reading it and refi'eshing your memory about it, that's kind
of stuck in your mind fyom that period?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But on top of the - besides that, you know,
unsubstantiated, no detailed allegations, no name mentioned, you know, and so f011h.
There was, you know, four or five other pages, or other issues the ICRC were concerned
with but, once again, those are those general concerns about, you know, food, water,
hygiene, religion, shelter, protection from attack .- you know, all those other tangible
issues which could actually be addressed with resources to actually improve conditions
out there. So, I've gone - and this is like a - you lmow, I'd do it again, but it's
dangerous going out to Abu Ghraib, dangerous.
CDRE Smith: Sounds like it.
MAJ O'Kane: Dangerous place. There's lED - improvised explosive device attacks
on that road, ambushes they conduct on that road going out there, so it's not sort of
thing, you know, you'd quickly go and do.
1\1ll' Pezzullo: Yeah, just to hop in your car and zip out there.
MAJ O'Kane: It's about -- well, if you go the Australian way it's about a 40 minute
drive; if you go the American Army way it's probably about a 20 minute drive, so
there's two variations.
CORE Smith: Kind of if you want to get killed on the way out there - the more careful
Australian way.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, in fact, that US Army way point to the safer route you Imow,
Intelligence officer of the MI brigade, they thought they're way was safer, if you went
out the Australians way it was riskier out there and she was trying to convince them to
go a different way - - -
0' Kane-07 /0612004 36 Tape 2 of3
Mr Pezzullo: The Aussie way or - - -
MfAJ O'Karre: Yeah, don't go her way, she knows where all the attacks are and she
was sort of concerned that we were going another way and the driver would expose us to
danger, but the NCO had already done his reconnaissance on the way to go.
Jl1r Pezzullo: So, that's - you jumped in Australian protect ..... (indistinct) .....
Australian protection.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, it varied. Sometimes I went with the US Army, sometimes I went
with the Australians.
Nir Pezzullo: Yeah. So, whoever's got the rig.
MAJ O'Kane: And depending whether they, you know have plans to go out. So, I
went out there specifically to 11m through this [CRC - but once I got co-ordinated with
them, "I'm corning out, I want to, you know - like to spealc to these officers about this
topic" and put the request for transport in, try and sort out a time that suits everyone, so
it's a painstaking business and it's communications are not always clear on and off, and
. [ went out there on 4th December.
CDRE Smith: VVbo did you see?
MAJ O'K:me: Now, okay, I saw out there - they -[ saw the Commanding Officer of
the Military Police battalion.
CDRE Smith: Of the battalion.
MAJ O'KUl:lc: Yeah. I've got the number of that battalion somewhere, but don't
recall it off the top of my head. A number of his staff officers were there - you know,
his XO his operations officer, his 33 - some NCOs, from memory, were there.
CDRE Smith: NCOs, yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: There was about like 10, 15 people in this room, 'cause I remember [
pulled the table out -[ sat at the table with the [CRC report and read it out paragraph by
paragraph and they all- - -
Mr Pezzullo: Their report, yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. And so there was also some of my people and the Lieutenant
Colonel, he's in charge of the Joint Intelligence Interrogation Debriefing Centre - JIDC
they call it - - -
CDRESmith: TheJIDC,yeah.

o 'Kane-07 106/2004
Tape2of3
37
:0:.'
MAJ O'l'(ane: The JIDC -- the JIDC chief - - -
CDRE Smith: There's a JIDC out there and there's other JIDCs - but there's a JIDC
out there at the prison.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That's the interrogation capability -
[vIr Smith: Yeah. No, I understand that.
MAJ O'Kanc: He was there with, I assume - they didn't identify themselves and he
came with his crew but the MPs were there in number
MAJ O'Kane: And he was a Battalion Commander, as well?
MAlO'Kane: No. Well, he was - no, 1- they've got a interrogation - my understand
is that they have an interrogation company there and he was the JIDC chief rather than
the company commander.
CDRE Sooth: Can I ask you this question, George? Okay. They - the JlDC chief-
no names, no pack drills at the moment - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: The other person who was accompanied by - I'm not talking about the
MPs here - you identified - what did you say, an XO, NCOs - - -
MAJ O'Kalle: XO, NCOs, 33 Operations officer.
MJ( Pezmllo: 33, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Probably their S1.
Mr lPezzullo: Their Sl. That's on the MP side?
MAJ O'.Kane: MP side.
Mr Pez:w!lo: Let's call that the 320
th
subject to checking.
MAJ O'K(ane: Yeah. Yeah. Part of 800
th
MP Brigade.- --
Mr Pezzullo: On the JIDC side - and it's not the MI battalion - - -
MfAJ O'Kane: Yeah, he's part of the Ml.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm SOlTy, he's part of it.
O'Kane-07!06!2004 Tape20f3
MIAJ O'Kane: Yeah,
111r Pezzullo: He identified himself as a fIDC chief. What ranl is the JIDC - - -
lViAJ O'Kane: Lieutenant Colonel.
Mr Pezzullo: US Lieutenant Colonel.
MAJ O'Kane: Lieutenant Colonel J -like, the JIDC chief.
My PezztJ!Ho: Other persons who - - -
MAJ O'Kame: I might've met him previously, I can't remember.
MI' Pezzu[lo: And you don't need to give me the name, I'm not demanding it, okay,
MAJ O'KaneOK, no, no, that's fine - - - ,
Mr Pez:w!!o: But you would - you could identify him by name if you needed to?
MAJ O'Kane: Yes, Yes.
MI' Pezzlill!!o: Could you identify any other persons in his party by name? Or were
they just nameless to you?
111AJ O'JI(ane: Nameless to me at the time
lVir Smith: In US Marine _. US Army unifOlllis?
lViAJ O'Kane: US -- US Army uniform. Everyone was US Army. I was the only non
US Army unifOllli in the whole place,
CDRE Smith: Righto, So you had every reason to believe that they were just straight
US Anny persolmel?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah,
CDRE Smith: Yeah,
MAJ O'Kane: and once again, I only - even though everyone was there - there was a
bunch of people there, like, we were talking to then and I went tl11'ougb that ICRC
report paragraph by paragraph - - -
CDRE SwJth: Paragrapb by paragraph, yeah.
.-
----
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape2of3
MAJ O'KaDe: - - - asking for -- you know asking for input from them to help me
prepare a reply.
I11r Pezz(!!lo:' Yeah' ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: Yep [needed their assistance.
Mr Pezzullo: ..... (indistinct) ..... you're fyorn? They all know where you're from?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, obviously they did 'cause they knew [was from Corps .... are not
there 'cause, I mean, their co-operation provide me with information to put a reply to the
ICRC Working Paper.
CDRE Smith: And then you discuss your issues.
MAJ O'Kallo: You lmow, "Ladies and gentlemen, that having raised the concerns and
obviously I've read fhem out, or summarised them in the following - yeah, that
particular feedback r needed from them -. - -
Mr Pezzullo: Is this oral feedback?
MAJ O'Kane: Oral feedback verbal feedback on, yeah, we're improving this, or, you
lenow, we haven't got enough manpower to do anything about that" et cetera, et cetera
through to the end offhe report.
CDRE Sl'1mth: But you're sitting there, taking notes.
MAJ O'Kane: I'm taking notes.
CDRE Smith: Yep.
MAJ O ' K ~ m e : When we get to the allegations of mistreatment, I read those out to
tbem and asked for their views. Just by background - this guy hom MI tbought the
ICRC were French Intelligence. I was asked the question of who screened the ICRC
inspectors hom French Intelligence. That's what we're - that's where I'm coming
fyom.
CDRlE Smith: And I presume -- were they the MPs, or the JIDCs, or both?
MAJ O'Kane: They're MIs.
CDRE Smith: '111e MIs, yeah. TIle more the men'ier, isn't it?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. But they were - --
CDRE Smith: Was that he CO just out of - perchance? Or just other - - -
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
MAJ O'f-(arre: I would prefer not to athibute that particular corrmlerrt to any particular
individuaL
CDRE Smith: An interesting comment though, George.
MAJ O'Kane: An interesting comment, okay.
CDRE Smith: Yeah. Okay. Sorry, go allead.
MAJ O'Klllle: But anyway but going back - you know, so they went through saying,
"Yep. Well, we think can improve this .. You know, now - that's now no longer
accurate, you know, they're now getting, you know, three showers a week instead of
one" and that sort of feedback. In regard to the allegations of mistreatment, they denied
- they denjed that happened.
Mr Pezwllo: Straight denial? Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Straight denial. Except the tal(e - in regard to the allegations the MPs
they said they take their - they taken their own clothes off in their cells - bearing in
mind it's summer 50 degrees - bloody hot-
Mr PezZltllo: Bloody hot, yeah.
MAJ O'Klllle: Then they take their own clothes off in their cells - you know, that's
rubbish - they're making that up.
CDRE Smith: Right. Yeah. And you're not asserting any disparity here - MPs, MIs
- basically they're all saying the same thing?
lVlAJ O'Kane: No. Yeah, nodding- all nodding to each other.
CDRE Smith: All nodding, yeah. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Going, "That's right." I don't doubt - I don't doubt that they weren't
sincere. I mean it's my first meeting with them but to me they were being upfront.
Now, bearing in mind this is not the first time they would been exposed to these
comments because they would've been exposed to that at the ICRC out brief after that
earlier inspection - . -
CDRE Smith: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
MAJ 0 'Kane: If I could perhaps, sir - just put a timeline up ...
CDRE Smith: Yeah, please. That'd be great.
O'Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape2of3
MAJ O'Kane: Now, I can't remember if Abu Ghraib - and I think: this October -- I
think this is 'round about October '03 there is the TIrst inspection out of that comes two
Working Papers, one related to each of the different organisations - sorry, facilities -
okay - two WorkingPaperscclate November we '- SJA receives -, what date did I say?
4th December __ _
CDRE Smith: 4th December is your - - -
MAJ O'Kane: 4th December is the Abu Glu-aib inspection and what have you. I
finalised that draft in - I think it's dated - I can't remember - I think it's dated 26
th
December, !i:om memory - - -
MI" Smith: Either that or 24th maybe.
MAJ O'Kalle: Yeah.
Mr Smith: Questioli mark that.
MAJ O'Kalle: Question mark. Now, this is one reply to cover both those working
papers.
CDRE Smith: So, they do ..... (indistinct) ..... do they - taking the other one - - -
MAJ O'Kane: The draft reply was prepared, one reply by Brigadier General
Karpinski ...
CDRE Smith: So, she responds to the ICRC.
MAJ a'Kane: Yeah, it's addressed to her in the first place, that's right, so I - --
CDRE S!nith: So, she does her thing.
MAJ a'Kane: You know, so I do it up on US Army 800 MP Brigade letterhead, you
know, so I've gone out there - that's my - that's the meeting - you know, that sort of
denial to the ICRC allegations was expressed.
MIs Patterson: And when you sort of go back ..... (indistinct) ..... so you don't sort of
see everybody else except these ..... (indistinct)" ... when you go back with the draft, do
you have any sort of knowledge of what happens to it after that? I mean, does your draft
sort of massaged a little?
MAJ a'Kane: It gets massaged by --by my Marine colleague and the Chief of
Detention Ops, but my Marine colleague, but he's the - in fact, he's the chief of the cell
- they like the term Chief of the Operations Law cell - Marine Major - --
-------,--'---_.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
lVir Pezzullo: He's your supervisor, as such? Or the same rank, but he heads up the
cell.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeith, same rank. Yea.h, he heads up the cell under the DSSA.
lVir Pezzullo: Right. Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: J mean, he's got access to SJPRNET, he's generally with the US only
and sensitive issues - - .'
Ml' Pezzullo: Sure. He's a Maline.
MAJ O'Kanc: He's a marine, yeah. And he celtainly had the first you know, he had
the part - you know, he had the chop and made some amendments, Colonel \ValTerr'
also made some amendments and all those were incorporated those into the final draft.
Ml' Pezzullo: So, you got document coniTol, have you? They're coming back to you?
MAJ O'1(:111e: Yeah. l'll give them a hard copy alld Colonel WalTen . - -
Mr l'czzuI!o: Yeah, right.
O'Kane: - - - makes his, yeah, changes on it or you know, major , .. rnakes his
changes on it Major K first and then - - ..
CDRE Smitll: Alphabetic K.
MAJ O'Kane: Alphabetic K.
CDRE Smith: Ye'th. Yeah. As opposed to, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: That's obviously a reverse of - - ..
CDRE Smith: No, that's what I'm saying, so .. - yeah.
lViAJ 0 'Kane: ..... (indistinct) .....
CDRE Smith: No, we understand ..... (indistinct) ..... yeah.
lViAJ O'Kane: And we have a ..... (indistinct) ..... towards - this is towards mid
December when this happened and then .- and then it goes 011 to Bdgadier General
Karpinski aIld she probably had a good week or two to sign off - - ..
Mr l'ezzllIlo: So, who releases it to her? Warren?
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, ] give -J think] email it to her ..... (indistinct) ........ .
m __ ____ __ __ _____
0'Kanc .. 07/0612004 43 Tape 2 of3
.:?B .. c;:Jl[lI
(
SECRET
IVfr Pezzullo: Right. Sorry, I'm SOITY, I'll rephrase my question. Colonel Warren
authorises release once he's happy with the draft? Because you don't have any
discretion, ' ,
1I1AJ O'Kanc:
incorporate them.
Well, it's not as formal as that. He makes his changes fmd I
1I1r Pezzullo: Understood. But you don't have any discretion in saying, "No, I think
the good Colonel is in error." You just make the changes,
1I1AJ 0 '[Cane: 1'10, I make the changes,
1I1r Pezzullo: Right. And then you then convey the document - okay, thank you,
1I1AJ O'1(ane: Yeah. And then I'd - I've actnal1y sent it to the 800 MP staff officer,
he .. - you know, we - you know, it's been cleared by Colonel Warren, cleared, , ,
Mr PezznUo: So, it's got that authority to it.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah. It's notjnst 0'[(311(; but it's been read and clern:ed by the
office ., ..
Mr Peziullo: So, in organisational tenns, that is staff, JAG drafl for her to consider.
lVIA.J O'.Kane: That's light. That's right, yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: Oleay,
MAJ O'Kane: And then, yeah, couple of days later it comes back to me in a envelope
addressed to the ICRe So, I have not seen whether or not .... and I've asked her staff
officer, "Oh, did she D1alW <my ch,mges?" She says, "I don't think so" .-. but I never saw
what -- they had the electronie copy so I don't know, you know, whether or not she
changed it or not.
1118 Patterson: And just going baek to the changes, was it substantially changed from
yom draft. .. 'cause it seems to be yom draft. !t's pnblic.
MAS O'Kane; Yeah. Probably Major K made quite a number of changes to it, but
they were more Australianisms tlimed into Americanisms ldnd of chrn1ges ......
CDRE Smith: Into MaTine sort of ......
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. He made quite a few suggestions, Colonel Warren also came in
,- you know, we debated the - I think I did include in there an issue about the allegations
about the mistreatment allegations .. .. you know, the word "ill treatment or
I
mistreatment" in tenns of what the ICRC used, as opposed to, you know conditioning
for interrogation. In one of the early drafts I think had something in it about, you know,
the allegations of illtreatrnent and it was denied and then the discussions were, "111is
.isn
2
tgoing tD beconducivcto our-relationship with the ICRGtogo in"- it made this
complaint a point of disagreement so it was sort of taken out of the draft as there was
not enough evidence to support it one way or another. So, it was left out but at the same
- we were trying to create a letter with a conciliatory tone rather than, you know an
adversarial stance deliberately - 'cause I remember deleted the allegations of
illtreatment because, no evidence. If I've mentioned, you know, if you've got 5000 or
6000, you know, "Saddam Fedayen, fonner regime elements, Islamic extremists, you
know, a couple of terrorists, you know, all thrown in there and then you don't need to
read that report to know that they're not going to be complimentary about the treatment,
'cause these people hate the Americans with a passion, just like the suicide bombers
there and, sure some will complain. So, in that context there is - to me it's obvious, but
maybe it's not so obvious to other people and of course they're going to complain about
their treatment to the ICRC report.
Ml' Pezzullo: But complaints, not, if you like - I see what you're saying. What you're
saying is that the detainees have got every reason to be complaining, whether iII-
founded or founded they are - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Well, that's a reasonable assumption in the context of the place
CDRE Smith: - - - to the ICRC interlocutors, okay.
MAJ O'Kane: 111at's right. But it's all - the one to - you know, it's - maybe not all
of them but, you know, some of them - some of them are obviously goiug to make that
point. And, of course, the ICRC don't give you names or anything like that, so there's an
allegation that's difficult to substantiate from their report, there's no detail, that's why,
to me, I've always discounted it 'cause there's no detail, but nevertheless raised it with
the Americans - you know, US officers in charge of the place - they denied it, you know,
the issue's dead, until the photographs come out - bearing in mind this is the second
time that, you know, they've been made aware of it, as well - plus, you know, the
allegations are brought up to a two star General .. one and two star Generals III
Headquarters, so, you know, it's exposure at Headquarters was made as well.
1\18 Patterson: The other sort of big issue that's sort of coming out is the presentation
before the visits.
MAJ O'Kane: Sure. Yeall. Yeah.
Ms Patterson: And that sort of goes a little bit from our ..... (indistinct) ..... talking
about the interpretations of the Geneva Convention, especially Article Five - what were
the reaction of the Americans to that presentation and how did those interpretations
come about?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 45 Tape 2 of3
Mid O'Kane: Okay. Yeall.
Ms Patterson: Was there any feedback for you about implementation of Aliicle V?
fViAJ O'Kane: Okay. Before I go on with that )'11 just finish" )'11 mention that there
was a specific allegation of mistreatment ii-om the HVD facility and - 'cause they
actually named one of the detainees that suffered burn injuries as a result of his capture
al1d the fact the US Army had to investigate that was confirmed in the draft letter md I
had to latcr speak to the MPs to rem.ind them to investigate it
CDRE Smith: (Garbled name) yeal1.
MAT O'Kane: Yeal1, (garbled name), 'cause that name was in the HVD inspection
report and wasn't linked to any allegation ofmislreatment. Now, when you have a name
along with that, bearing in mind their priorities were in other places, they were going to
have a lack of urgency, instead of devoting resources to HVD at BIAP. But we
acknowledged what was iu that letter and confinued that. Now we have to investigate
that 'cause that's the right thing to do with an allegation of that type.
CDRE Smith: 'Cause I - this is on - under her charge.
lV.iAJ O'Kalle: Yeal1, under her command.
CDRE Smith: They informed us that you sent a .. ... (indistinct) ..... reply" " "
IVIAJ O'Kane: That's right.
1111" Smith: """ but there was both reports.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That's right. But then, well, we found out at the ICRC out brief
later that, in the matter was not investigated and the Brigadier General had signed a
letter saying that they were going to investigate it, so we had to follow that up by raising
it with the 800"' MP Brigade LNO at the HQ. Going back the presentation now, okay.
Now"" -
Ms Patterson: And there's a - and what's really interesting to try and determine is
interpretations of the Geneva Convention between AS and US md Article Five and what
position that put you in, in that you were an Australian officer.
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Now, background to that is that as a result of working on [CRC
working papers, [ saw that the IeRC had all SOlis of problems in - October [ think it was
their October inspection - actual practical difficulties with it.
Mr Pezzullo:
inspection, yeah.
Yeah, that's right, yeah, as distinct from an earlier - any earlier
o 'Kane-O? 106/2004
(
MAJ O'Kal1e: Yeah, I didn't - I wasn't involved in the earlier inspection, so the first
thing I knew about it was late November when the working papers carne in. Right.
Now, clearly r can't influence the detention process or any living conditions, whereas,
tll(jQ111ytl1itlglcilIlassisLwith ism!!king.suretheir visit.was .. avasLimprovement over
the frustration they had in that October visit for the next visit in January. Now, I'm
dismayed to hear about some newspaper report that I've allegedly colluded with the US
Army to prevent their inspectious. Now, they turned up unannounced in the October.
My memory is this a place under - not hourly or daily, but under attack - - -
Unidentified male: It was a threat, yeah.
1\1AJ O'Kane: A dangerous place. There's hundreds of Iraqis lined up outside
because they've got a visitor's access programme going on. The [CRC turned up
unannounced is not going to work, you know, solely because their safety is at risk and
because of the practicalities of the location to, you know, the ICRC - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Talk to ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. That sort of thing, so - --
CDRE Smith: Well, what about Min's question about - --
MAJ O'Kane: I'm heading to that. ..
CDRE Sm.it!J: I'm sorry. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: This is further information. So, what it involved was that I - we
discussed it with ICRC as to how to resolve this problem - with the ICRC tlu'ough
December and we actlJally improved their visit, we agreed with them and like I sought
their agreement as well, we agreed that - bealing in mind there'd be no free .... you know,
liee access fl.-om unannounced visits, they could brive us dates so we would work
together to get the dates that they were coming and we could ensure that their visit was
up and would go through smoothly. You know, this is a huge place so - and the
buildings housed a small number of internees, but 99 per cent of the place, it's all
exposed, in the open, there's nothing to hide from an ICRC inspector with fal' more
detainees in the compounds. So, the [CRC agreed, "Yeah, we'll tell you when we are
coming because the threat remained that if they turned up unannounced, yeah, they risk
actually getting shot. There were car bombs, you know - you got your car bombs being
delivered to particular places - and they come in a car - by car, so, you know, protection
was their business. So they were- with tbeir agreement, they were happy to go "Well
advise when we are coming, things can be organised for us, you know, we're working in
tbat type of environment"
LTCOL Abbott: George, if I just take you back this time to get Article V.
IVIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, sure.
O'Kane-07/06/2004 47 Tape 2 of 3
(
LTCOL Abbott: W1lCn you were settling some drafts about the law, the subject law,
particularly what Article Five of GC 4 meant,.
MAJ O'Kane: Yes. Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: ,. ,. ,. c,m you step us tllJough the process in the staffing chain that
was involved there, and your role in that and the role of any other,. ,. ,.
IViAJ O'Kaue: Sure. We mentioned Article Five in the JCRC reply. I can't remember
at the moment how we addressed it
LTCOL Abbott: What I've got here'" and I should record this - is tbat ,. '" '"
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: .... ,. is your two drafts here, George, there's your ,. one is the onc
i.om 25
th
of November '" ,. ,.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
LTCOL Abbott: - .. '" which is yours, and then we also have an undass, unsigned - I
should point out for the record. we also have General Karpinski's unsigned letter as well,
which also makes to Baghdad central facility and also Article Five. What
we're interested in particularly is how the version of the law that came out there .... and
that you were using generally .... was reached in the staffing process.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. That would've been discussions between us with the JAG office
and, yon know, Colonel WWTcn with, you know the DSSA as well.
On further thonght while commenting on this draft record of interview by Major
O'Kane, the US interpretation of Articlc V originated from discussions when the
detention FRAGO was being put together in August 03.
LTCOl, Abbott: Were all of yon at the SJA office, you know ." .. (indistinct) .....
involved in settling that view of Article Five or the-.. how did it come about - the view
of what Article Five and its meaning actually ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'.Kane: I'm just trying to think back as to whether or not we had any - well, we
always discussed things -- we discuss things like - well, we must've had .- must've had
discnssion about it, you know how it related to the letter an.d amendments included by-
tlu'ough Major K in Operations, as well, that paIiicular draft, and Colonel \/hnen
contributed and cleared through CO Detcntion Ops .. - -
CDRE Smith: That's a pretty intuitive process, or ......
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 48

Tape 2 of3
MAJ O'Kane: It was how we got through the workload.
LTCOL Ahbo(i: But did a draft get passed out or .... (indistinct) .....
MfAJ O'Kane: Yes, the draft got passed around.
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, went up to CENTCOM or anything anywhere.
MAJ O'Kane: No, not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of, sir, it didn't go up. It
was inside - it was produced inside the OSJA office.
L TCOL AbboH: And do you know whether" " "
MAJ O'K,me: Whether or not Brigadier Karpinski sent it up, I don't know but I doubt
it.
LTCOL Abbott: Do you know what resources were relied upon - their legal
resources - to show what had actually should be ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kmnc: We had commentary - lCRC commentary on the Geneva Convention
and copies ofthe Geneva Conventions themselves.
LTCOL AbboH: And in the drafts here, which are the ones unsigned and done by you
in November" " "
111AJ O'Kane: Yeah, that went into the Commander 800"' MP Brigade -"-
L TCOL Abbott: Yeah, do you want to tell us- " "
MAS O'Kane: aild cleared by the UK DSJA""-
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, tell us how these were fonnniated, were they views coilegially
reached, or where they views that callie from anywhere in particular -- about Article
Five?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That would've been - that would be something we discussed
coming up with the draft - including summaries going up to higher officers in the
headquarters or tell whether it was discussed in draft by the SJA - and the DSJA
..... (tape IUns out) .....
End of side Olle, tape (vvo
Side two, tape two
L TCOL Abbott: Tape recommencing.
Tape 2 of3
SECRET
Mr .Pezwllo: George, I think we'll ask for 3110thor 10 minutes of your time.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, sure.
Mr PezwHo: What I'd like to do is close out this discussion then ask - and we'll go to
some questions about intenogation and policy.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Just on Article Five .. - -
Mr PezzulIo: Sure.
MAJ 0 'Kane: - r remember now that - in fact, I did have a discussion with
Colonel Wan'cn - yeal1, not only with the DSJA, Colonel Warred, about whether we
could rely 011 that - the exclusion of the lCRe and he was comfortable - - ..
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, for the exclusion .....
MAJ O'Kane: Of the JCRC visit - - ..
Mr l'ezzulIo: Okay.
MAJ O'I(ane: .... - to interview certain detainees for, you lmow, a limited time
'cause that's what Article Five says.
lYIr Pezzullo: Sure.
Mr Smith: How do you - sorry, how do you understand ATticlc Five with - ....
1\1AJ 0 'Kane: For reasons of imperative military security-- sorry, no, it's not Article
Five, it's another Article in the Geneva Convention .. Four - which covers it.
LTCOL Abbott: Article 143.
Mid O'Kane: 143, that's it ... 143 actualJy specially provides for the discretion of
IeRC access for reasons of imperative military secmity-
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, you had a conversation with Wan'en
MAJ O'Kane: Ahout Five mld about 143.
Mr Pezzullo: But in terms of 143, about excluding them in an active seIlse ..
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeall. Yes.
Mr PezzulIo: So, did Warren want to, or not want to achieve that cnd?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004
,--- --- _ .... __ ....... _ ...... _ .. _-
50 Tape 2 of 3
SEq<'ET
(
MAJ O'Kane: He was comfortable with that interpretation,
Ml' Pezzullo: That they could be excluded?
Mid O'Kanc: Ye,lh, they could be excluded,
Note: From major O'Kaue - that is individual access could be excluded for a limited
period of time]
LTCOL Abbott: And what Article Five, what did -- had your chat with Colonel
Wanenabout Article Five,
!VIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Okay, The- we involved the people that were involved in
detention, we read and we discussed the content of it - and a lot of the DSJA, as well --
about what that actually meant, meaning that they don't gain the rights, privileges, you
know that they would get if tllCY were not a threat to the security of the State, but that
has to be reinstated at the earliest date where it's consistent with the security of State or
Occupying Power.
iVir Pezzullo: Can we close out maybe, I don't !mow, 10 more minutes if you can
accommodate that?
MAJ O'Kallc: Fine, I'm here until you're ready to fini.sh - --
Mr Pezzullo: No, no, the" I wouldn't mind chopping it, only - " "
MAJ O'Kallc: But J haven't answered these questions '" - -
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, Indeed, yeah,
MAJ O'I(ane: 'Cause you asked the question about the presentation, This is"- the
background to it was that we needed to try and work with the ICRC to sort of facilitate a
better visit then, YOll ]mow, better than the previous one [md they were most happy with
the way that it went. What th8.t thell meant was that we had to then still meet and co"
ordinate with the detention filcility for the next ICRC inspection so that when they came
along this time we were going' to roll out the red carpet for them - " -
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, which hap]lened in January,
MAJ O'Kane: Which is what happened in JamlflTY,
CDRE Smith: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: Now, what we had is - now hearing in mind that it's a, you know,
busy, busy place, they're (Abu Ghraib) probably - you know, probahly undermanned"
O'Kane-07/06/2004 51
; ; 5 ~ K I ~ . I
Tape 2 of3
the ICRC visit they just see as a necessaIY evil, all embuggerance they've got to now try
and accommodate, so you needed someone (0 get them - drive them to the thing and to
make sure that the inspection works this time and it doesn't, you know - like, they don't
havethedifficultythattheYTlliTinto last time.
L TCOL Abbott: Or the dlli1ger ofbeing shot.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, yeah, their security and so forth. But basically the US An11y was
a sort of - so they were - they were co-operative with this sort of approach, but they
were keen to have a - they saw that, you lmow, there was someone who was obviously
there dw'ing the early visit and they were keen to - I mean, not to criticise, if I can use
that term, but the need to visit.
J ~ TCOL Abbott: So, in actually agreeing that approach with the ICRC lli1d they were
very happy with it, of course?
MAJ O'Kalle: Yes, of course.
LTCOL Abbott: .. (indistinct)" ...
MAJ O'Kane: They didn't - it wasn't a question that they didn't like the visit, but we
were trying to have a better visit. Once they got in the gate a11d on straight through our
co-ordination, they then had fulllli1d fi'ee access to where they wlli1ted to go - - -
CDRE Smith: And your recall is that they had satisfaction with the aITangement that
you came to?
MAJ O'Kane: They loved it.
CDRE Smith: They loved it? Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: They loved it. They said, you know, "That was great" and, "Can we
do the same things with the HVD visit?"
Mr Pezzullo: In terms of your own personal perf0I111anCe, it sounds like you were
pretty central to mediating what was potentially a difficult relationship.
MAJ O'Kalle: Ifwe had a problem - we had to work it out lli1d overcome the obstacle
with them - and the only thing I could personally contribute to was to make ita better
visit and I couldn't help them with, like, blankets and, you know, rations and all that.
Mr Pezzullo: Probably fair to say that a bit of good Aussie cham1 worked a treat.
1\1AJ O'Kane: You Imow, yeah, exactly. I think of - they (the US AD11Y) were keen
to have an Australilli1 uniform instead of a US Army uniformlli1d I think that, you know,
there was tension there and they were happy to have it. Now, it didn't all go sort of
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 52
,c'SitclzEtS'i) ::;8 Ir
Tape 2 of3
smoothly and I'll step you through that. So, as a means of facilitating the visit and he's
there when I - you know, when that happened and he said let's use their JAG officers to
set up a pre-inspection meeting - now, this is just a co-ordination meeting to ensure that
we knew they were comingin two days time, "Have we got everythinginplacc? Have
we got the front guard warned out, with an escort for them to bring them to their
accommodation, is their life SUppOlt (ie water) squared away." - -
Mr Pezzullo: That's probably in the second - yeah.
MAJ O'Kalle: Do we have water set up for them? You know, where are we going to
house them? Who's going to escort them down to where they want to go, you know, all
these things put in place but they just don't happen when they tum up; they've got to be
arranged in advance. So, our - now, at the same time it was actually at the suggestion of
the 800 MP Liaison Officer at the Headquarters at CJTF 7 - said, "Why don't you give
the -like, when we go out for the pre visit why don't you give us the provisions on what
the Geneva Connection say, that's what it was.
Mr Pezmllo: And that's the PowerPoint?
MAJ O'Kane: That's the PowerPoint presentation.
Mr Pezwllo: Right.
M,. Smith: ..... (indistinct) .....
lI1AJ O'Kane: It was done through that. But that's a basic PowerPoint presentation
up - not as the press alleges to teach them how to avoid their obligations, but just to
remind them about what the Geneva Convention says about PW and detainee treatment
and to distinguish the difference between the two.
1\11( Pezzullo: George, you can rest assured our team has no - takes no guidance out of
the media.
MAJ 0 'Kane: Yeah.
Mr Pezm!lo: What I might do, I've got both - for personal reason but, more
importantly, I've got discussions I've got to have with the CDF.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Sure. Okay.
Mr Pezzullo: Mike ..... (indistinct) ..... if George is willing to be available, there's a bit
on intelTogation that I tl1ink we oUght to go through.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
0' Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape 2 of3
CDRE Smith: I'm just inclined to give it another five minutes and do five minutes on
George coming back home now.
MAJ O'Kane: If Ijus(hit the high points andthelowpoints.ofthat inspecti.on;- as
well.
Mr Pezzullo: Well, hang on. What I wouldn't mind --I've got a slightly different view
and I'll by to test this out with George. I thinlc that there's - in tem1S of performance in
the mind of the Minister in terms of advice, I thinl( that there's probably separate
discussion that I'd like to think about now having, which is about not what George
O'Kane did, because I've got to say, ! mean, this is sounding pretty much like a
straightforward account - - -
MAJ O'Kane: A straightforward, that's it, account - - -
Ml' Pezzullo: Very straightforward account and, indeed - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: . ""(indistinct),, ".
1111' PezZllIllo: - - - indeed a helpful- a selies of - well, a series of helpful interventions
by you to assist a potentially difficult situations.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, and can be corroborated by, you know, the 800
th
MP LNO and
the Baghdad ICRC representative - - -
Ml' Pezzu[lio: I've got no reason to doubt you, George, so - - -
MAJ O'Kane: - - - that I'm aware of.
Mr Pezzuilo: - - - please understand that. You know this is a neutral, factual account
that you're giving us. There was a set of questions that Mike and I kicked around in
terms of - I'm just intrigued by this - particularly 'cause Senator Brown is arching up
about so-called interrogation rules of engagement and there's a question about policy it
sits behind -I n1ight leave you in Commodore Smith's very capable hands on that.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
Mr Pez:wUo: What I would actually like to do - and it's going to be a time
embuggerance - not tomorrow necessarily but in the next 48 hours - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Sure. Wl1enever.
Mr PezzuHo: - - - after I've reviewed this stack I've had here .- the mix ups OJ -- I
actually wouldn't mind" - -
MAJ O'Kane: There's a lot ofinfonnation the further you get into this.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape20f3
My Pezzullo: There certainly is - and it's all tallying up nicely.
There's one mistake [made inoneoftheearlier Min Reps;tthought r
went there four times - - -
Mr Pezzullo: And indeed it was.
[vIAJ O'K{al1e: I went on five. I've flagged that - flagged that - - -
Mr Pezzullo: I've seen that ..... (indistinct) ..... seen that issue.
MAJ O'Kalle: It's only because I got mixed up -like, I can't think back - you know, I
went out - that IeRe meetings - I got mixed up between my visit for this - the pre-
section bliefwith - when I went out there for input on the ICRC proposal - - -
IVIr Pezzullo: And if that's still in error on the ministerial record, we'll just clean that
up as part of our report.
MAJ O'Kalle: Yeah. Yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhat I'd like to do is actually close out on interrogation and we'll get a
back blief from Mike about that issue. I would like to re-meet for this reason - and this
is - relates to where were started the whole discussion.
MAJ O'JI(alle: Yeah.
M!r Pezzullo: What you've really given us is a very patient account of what George
O'Kane did as part of his conventional business activity over there - you lmow, he's got
a whole bunch of stuff and this is just one stream of work.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
Mr PezzuIlo: What I really want to then sit down and talk with you about in a separate
meeting is information flows.
MAJ O'JI(al1e: Okay.
I\1r Pezzullo: Not only in terms of what happens with your post deployment report, you
lodge it, it goes into TeDs - goes into 633 - but also as this stuffs happening I'm aware
of - and think we've got - or most of these weekly ballpoint things that you do- I really
just want to tease out how those information flows were set up, light.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Sure.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
Mr Pezzuilo; So, what we've dealt with in this interview - discussion - and you -- and
I really do appreciate how patient you've been stepping us through it - - -
MAJO'Kane:-Noproblem.
1111' Pezzullo: - - - is a very nice detailed account, which has given me a lot of context
about working conditions and how you went about your daily work. I'd like to set up
another meeting with a slight tweak on the questions that I want to play around with but
just to warn you out, they'll be more about your interaction with the Australian system.
MAJ O'Kame: Sure. Okay.
Mr Pezzullo: What you've really dealt with here is your interaction with the ICRC/US
interface, right. Now, I want a separate meeting which I do not want to msh, I want to
release you for home reasons - so if you're willing to be available for that - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Just give me some advance notice, I'll be available when you want.
Mr Pezzullo: Probably Wednesday shall I say.
111AJ O'Kane: There's just a couple of points I just want to raise which we have not
covered -
Mr Pezzullo: At least close them out, yeah. Yeah, close them out.
MAJ 0' Kane: When I said they loved it, they loved the processes, they loved, you
IGlow, what we put on for them - 'cause we used to have a -like a morning and evening
brief with them - - -
Mr lPezwHo: Sure.
IViAJ O'Kane: - - - a co-ordination meeting to ensure that (a) everything was in line to
- 'cause they'd nominate where they want to go the next day, so we'd warn out
compound cOlmnanders and they'd go, "Oh, look, can we push that back half an hour,
we're still in the middle of breakfast at that stage" but, you know, co-ordinate those SOli
of issues and make sure their guides were ready, In fact, the guys went down there for
the first day or two, then they gave up and they were just on call, "Let me in the
compound" - like the QRF would be warned out where they were, so they could
respond if necessary - - -
M[r Pezzullo: Q - oh the Quick Reaction - yeah ...... (indistinct), ....
MAJ O'Kane: Quick Reaction Force - 'cause there's a real threat in those compounds
and so forth, for example the MPs did a search of part of the compound during the ICRC
inspection and seized a bunch of shanks, whole box of them, but they'd collected them
on one search OIl one afternoon.
O'Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape2of3
iVir PezzuLlo: Yeah. So, you don't want an accidental you Imow - --
MAJ .. H'.Kane: Well the lCRewill say you Imow,we're responsible for our own
security, but you can imagine the disaster if they killed an ICRC delegate dUling the
inspection of a US detention facility.
Mlr Pezzullo: I can imagine, yeah. I can imagine.
MrAJ O'Kane: But fortunately they said, you know, we - we'll get coordinated with
you and we take all those steps to ensure that it goes as safely as it can go - - -
Mr Pez,m!lo: Yeah. But you're saying that they love all these arrangements.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. The one area they didn't - that we had words about - not an
argument, we had words about -- that was the exclusion of nine of the detainees
undergoing interTogation in cell block lAo
Mr Pezzullo: Cell block IA. SOlTY, just say that again - exclusion of what?
IIIlAJ O'Kane: Exclusion of tile reRC interviewing nine persons - - -
Mr PezzuHo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kame: There's roughly, I think, about 40 detainees in cell blocks IA and lB.
1 A and I B just refer to the top and bottom level of this cell block - - -
IIi!:i' Pezzullo: W11ich has now becoming notOliollS.
MAJ O'Kane: Notorious, yeah, yeah.
Mi' Pezzullo: Yeah. Yeah. But what was the argument about at the time?
MAJ O'Kane: The argument was -- was that we - that the US Army was not going to
give them access originally to 12, but then they cut it down to nine - --
[Note: From Major O'Kane that at the coord briefing the ICRe were not going to get
access to the whole cell block, but this was negotiated down to 12 individuals and then 9
persons. ]
Mr l'ezztEllo: Persons.
MAJ O'Kane: - - .. persons that were undergoing active intelTogation - - -
1l1r PezzuHo: You mean at the time?
_ .. _----_.
O'Kane-07/06/2004
MAJ O'f:(ane: At the time of the [CRC visit.
111r I?euutlo: L, January.
MAJ O'K:me: In January. And the Commanding Officer of the MI Brigade basically
asked me to brief it and he stepped in during the course of - in fact, he was the one that
asked me - - -
fiEr Pezzullo: Sorry, the Commander of the Brigade, did you say?
MAJ O'Kmae: Yeah, the Military Intelligence Brigade.
MlrPezzullo: Who's a Brigadier General?
MAJ O'Kanc: That- he's actually a full Colonel.
Mr Pezzullo; Colonel.
!VJAJ O'Kane: Shonld be a Brigadier General, but a full Colonel.
Mr Pez:wHo: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: And - 'cause Oliginally I wasn't going to stay at Abu Ghraib but he
asked - he sort of asked me to stay out there to facilitate then inspection.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhile this is going on.
MAJ O'Kalle: \Vhile this is going on. Like, he asked me I trunk, you lmow, a few
days beforehand, you lmow, "Can you" - 'cause I wasn't very interested in staying out
there.
M[r Pezzullo; You had other s(uffto do though, didn't you?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. It's a - you know, it's a revolting place and, you lmow, it's
under regular attack - not that Victory is not, but when you're out there - - -
I'Ilr Pezzullo: Understood. Understood.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. So, the IC -- the point is the JCRC weren't really happy about
that, but what they ai;'Tced - - -
Mr Pezzullo: About the exclusion?
MAJ O'Kane: About that exclusion. See, this is - they'll come in going we require
access to everywhere. They den't refer to that there is an exemption in Geneva IV - - -
- - - - . ~ ~ ~ : - - - - - - -
0' Kan e-07 /06/2004 Tape 2 of3
i
Mr Pezzullo: Understood.
MAJ O'Kane: They've got their own agenda.
" MrPez:nIIlo: So, they won't go everywhere. This Colonel says, "No, you cau't" - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, he said "We're relying on this Article to - you're not seeing this
group of people. We will give you the names of who you cau'! - who we're preventing
you from seeing on this inspection so that you cau follow them up on your next visit,
and if we still won't give you access, we'll give you a letter from the GC". - --
Mr Pezzullo: We're relying on 143?
MAJ O'Kane: On 143 -- give you the names of the persons that you won't be
permitted to see - explained why - that they're undergoing active interrogation and if
you break someone down, or persuade them to give up information you don't need
them drawing stTength ti-om au ICRC visit.
CDRE Smith: So, what phraseology did he use?
MAJ O'Kmue: Okay. They'll be prevented from interviewing nine persons in cell
block I Aaud I B in the hard cells but they've got access to everyone else at the other
locations - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Understood. SOI1)', yeah, I Lmderstaud that, George. But you say that he
explains the rationale, what, to you or to the - - -
MAJ O'E(alllie: No, to the ICRC and - - -
Mr Pez;mllo: And he uses - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Like to - yeah, does in discussions with me, but also in discussion with
the ICRC.
Mr Pezzullo: And what was his rationale - "You can't go and talk to them?" Why?
J\1AJ O'Kane: 'Cause they're undergoing active interrogation
Mr Pezmllo: Okay. And I'm an ICRC person, I say, "Yeah, so what? I want to see
them." What does he say then?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, you know we won't be giving you access because of imperative
military necessity in the Geneva Convention IV Artcile 143 - - -
J\1r Pezzullo: Which is in 143 tJigger (7)
0'Kaue-07/06/2004 59 Tape 2 of3
SECRET
;LJ ~ ' ~ ~ ~ Q(; ' . ~ " " " _ , , , _ ' .. , _ ~
(
MAJ O'Kane: Which is the 143 trigger "We're not going to give you access on this
occasion, but we'll give you the names of those people who you are prevented ii-om
interviewing - .. ,.
My Pezzullo: Do you lmow the names?
MAJ O'Kane: - '" '" so you can follow them up later on - - '"
Ml' Pezzullo: Follow them up,
1\1AJ' O'Kane: ,. - '" and you'll have the names and you can follow them np on your
next interview." So, they're not trying to, you know prevent complete access" .. -
)V[r Pezzullo: Sorry, diel I hear words to the effect of "When you're trying to break
someone down, I don't want that to be viewed" or - ,,, -
[\i[AJ' Yes, that is what I said but there are other ways of describing it.
Mr Pezzullo: - - - is that what I heard?
MAJ O'Knl1c: No, Yeah, that's - that was the rationale behind it. I don't think he used
those words ......
Mr Pezzullo: To these people I wouldn't have thought., "
MAJ O'Kane: No he did not use those words, but he was not going to have
interrogations intenupted by the rCRC he obviously understands that, they were
entitled to interview them in due course, Onc of the French guys, I mean, he was not
pm"ticularly thrilled by this approach ......
J\11' Pezzullo: 'They're suspicious - French. No, I'm joking,
MAJ ..... (indistinct) ... "
Mr Pezzullo: So, you're actually in a bit of a tussle here, are you?
lVIAJ O'Kane: I'm bit a little bit of a tussle.
[Note: [rom M,Uor 0'Kan0 - I mn fairly sure Colonel Waneninte['venec1 at this point
mId a compromise was reached.]
Ml' Pezzullo: Yeah,
MAJ O'Kane: But in the end they were happy with the fact that they"" yeah, we were
- they weren't being prevented from "'" you IUlow, from interviewing their choice of
5000 other people" - '"
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 60 Tape 2 of3
..
Yir Pezzullo: Understood, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - .... people that they weren't getting access to on
........... :, .c
occasion.
Mr Pezzullo: On?
MAJ O'Kane: On that occasion.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Okay. But there was a .. an opportunity afforded them ......
MAJ O'Kalle: Opportunity, yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: - - - "Here's a name - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, "Here's a name. You take his name away" - - -
Mr Pezzullo: "You can talk to him later."
MAJ O'Kane: "Next time they'll be out of interrogation and you can speak to them
then.
CDRE Smith: Is this the first time that you've gone through that part of the tale or
..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: I believe so.
CDRE Smith: Several times.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: Yeah, light. Okay. I must fe-read my submissions.
MAJ O'Kane: This is the first time I've gone through this step by step - ....
Mr Pezzullo: It's been fantastic. I really appreciate it.
--------.. _J
O'Kane-07/06/2004 61 Tape 2 of 3
SEi1lRBl' r'''',
1 :".;.0' ,i.'>7> '\0-: .... u.<,<o,.
LTCOL Abbott: Tape resumed at 5.42.
Ms Patterson: The interesting thing is also because our obligations in Australian are
different to the US -- what sort of effect that would have on the work you were doing in
the Coalition - - -

0' Kane-07 106/2004
Tape 2 of 3
(
MAJ O'Kalle: Okay. TIle difference is that the US isn't a signatory to additional
protocol one and two, but we should really have a very similar understanding of the
Articles of the Geneva Convention one to four ..... (indistinct)" ... embellish- well,
" ,
Ms Patterson: " ... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'l{ane: Probably the most starkest difference I saw - but then again maybe it
wasn't different - was in targeting, for example. They were targeting empty buildings
that were usually used for attacks. That's the Australian - that's not probably the
Australian way of - and my understanding is that it's not necessarily the Australian way
of war fighting, but they (the US) were keen to get out there and do that sort of thing.
Ms Pattersoll: Yeah. But the, you know" sort ofbacle on the sort of detainee things,
you know, sort of, gave you this sort of reminder" " -
MAJ O'Kane: When J was told" " "
Ms Patterson: Yeah, when you sort of gave this reminder of the Geneva Convention,
'cause I've seen the slides" - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. They're very basic - - -
Ms Patterson: And you're stepping through - that's right -""
MAJ O'Kame: They're very basic slides to revise the Geneva Convention obligations -
Ms Patterson: - - - stepping through what were" " "
MAJ O'Kane: Revising what the obligations are. So, there was nothing - it was -
that's all it was. It was just a re-faJ11iliarisation that, you know, "You guys are treating
the detainees this way because of this Geneva convention obligation which your
Govenunent has signed up to.
M8 Patterson: Yeah. And what was their response to that? Was it sort of just
received and that's it, or was there any discussion or ............. ?
MAJ O'Kane: To that Geneva Convention obligation? No, I don't recall any
discussion - they were just on receive - it wasn't meant to be a discussion, it was just
meant to be - 'cause once again this was for a revision of what the Geneva Convention
said - there was only like a 10 minute spiel" covers some of the areas I've covered in
that previous JCRC report. It was just a reminder of what their obligations are, 'cause a
lot of them are very general provisions not necessarily precise or, you know, descriptive;
they're just general comments, you k.now.
o 'Kane-07 10612004 Tape 2 of3
SECRET
in the Headquarters before leaving thea(Te and I remember like, walking past him and
either in the office -- you lmow, said, "Hello. Haven't seen you for a couple of weeks.
Arc you well?" aod he said to me - he said words to the effect o ) ~ "Has Colonel WalTcn
spoken to you about, you know, these allegations involving internees at Abu Ghraib.
You !mow, apparently they found some photographs" to which I said, "Well, is it being
investigated?" He said, "Yeah, the ClD are investigating it" .... -
CDRE Smith: CID?
!VIAJ 0 'Kane; Criminal Investigation Division.
CDRE Smith: Are they pm1 of this JAG system?
MAJ O'Kane: 111ey're a part of 5 Corps. They like your Military Police h)vestigators.
cOlm Smith: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: "Yeah, they're onto it," aod I've said, "Oh, fine." Now, this is in the
context of things happening daily that require investigation.
CDRE Smith: Indeed. I'm sure that's the case. I'm sure that's the case. Cm) I just
tease that out a bit, though?
MAJO'Kane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: The Captain who -- if you eml recall his name it'd be helpful.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeal1, I prefer not to at this stage.
CDRE Smith: That's fine. Yeah, I was just inviting you, but that's not a problem.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, I know.
CDRE Smith: There was almost ao intonation, or 311 implication in the way that yon
descried that t11at you almost thought, "Maybe George is across it. Has Warred spoken
to you about this?" This was news to you. Like, you were just a blank - your mind was
blank on the issue, I presume.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. I hac! not heard about it previously - --
CDRE Smith: You thought, "What allegations?"
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, that's it.
CDRE Smith: Okay.
. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - . - - - - - -
a 'Kane .. 07/0612004 16 Tape 1 of3
;;ECRET

,
MAJ O'Kane: But I - you know, r was told it was in hand - - -
CDRE Smith: But you diligently - as a good honourable Australian officer - said, you
know, "Is it in hand? Is - - -
j\1AJ O'Kane: In hand yeah, It was the idea that you know, it's being investigated.
CDRE Smith: And you remember quite distinctly - - -
MAJ 0 'Kane: I remember distinctly - - -
CDRE Smith: - - - saying to him, you know, "Is it in hand?" and the response was?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, it was a - "Yeah. Yes, it is under investigation - you know, elD
are investigating it." Now, the only reason he mentioned it to me was because of my
involvement with the IeRe, which - - -
Mr Pezzullo: And we'll come to that in the narrative, I guess. But that extended some
months back because you're talking mid January.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, no, no, only a few weeks before. Only a few weeks before - - -
Mr Pezzullo: A few weeks before.
MAJ O'f(ane: - - - only two weeks beforehand.
Mr Pezmllo: All right. We might just leave - I'm sorry, I've taken you down a rabbit
warren there, simply we coming out of Min's narrative. But we were talking about
information ..... (tape ends) ....
End of side one, tape one
Side two, tape one
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. So, you said mid January you sort of bumped into each other in
the corridor. Is this your visit associated in early January with the JeRC delegation?
MAJ O'Kanc: Yes. Yeal1.
1111' Pezzullo: So, probably you're looking at the week of 4-8 January, I'd say,
wouldn't you?
MAJ O'Kane: SOlry, that's the JCRe visit to Abu Ghraib. Yeah, 4 to 8 January.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, no wonies. And you reckon it might've occurred at that point?
l\1AJ O'Kane: What?
0' Kane-07 106/2004 17

i.,t::.> \L:;!3 ..
Tape 1 of3
Mr Pezzullo: Bumping into the Captain.
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, I bumped into him at Camp Victory - --
Mr Pezzullo: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
1\1AJ O'Kane: Yeah, Camp Victory
Mr Pezzul1o: Camp Victory - Camp Victory - - -
MAJ O'Kane: - - - at the main office.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm sorry.
1I1AJ O'Kal1e: Now, I've got down here the 15
th
January - on or about that date. It
might've be day before or it might be the 15
th
..... (indistinct) .....
1I1r Smith: And Camp Victory, just remind me, was - --
MAJ O'Kane: Sorry. That's where CJTF 7 was based.
1111' Smith: Oh, that's Headquarters.
MAJ 0 'Kane: The Headquarters.
1111" S,nith: Okay. Right. So, this out posted officer you bumped into. Great. Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: I ran into him as I was walking out of the office at Camp Victory - l-
am not positive, but I assume it was due to him being posted at that stage, was back 111
Camp VictOlY at1d out process of Theatre - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. 11Jree sentence conversation and the phrase used IS "abuse
allegations" and that's it.
MAJ O'Kalle: 1
0' Kane-07 106/2004 Tape I of3
1113 Pattcl'son: Yeah. No, I was just - that's part of - when I was, you know, just
talking about what jobs, you know, you were doing there and we have spoken - but if
you could just give us a brief description of the SOli of things that you focused on.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Sure. Okay. The main focus in the main jobs - I mean, we've got a
couple of us working in -the Operations law cell, the JAG office - 'cause I was, well,
the only - aside from my British 05 colleague, I was the only the Australian, or only
Coalition Major equivalent, they thought it would make good sense to put me into -
having been aware of Coalition type issues - remembering that's there's two Coalition
Brigades - divisions, I should say - in Iraq, one British led and one Polish led - so,
what my main - I was like the SJA rep on the Coalition issues but, on top of that -
because that was probably like a full time job - on top of that I helped out with any
other operational issues that happened to be on that day, depending on, for example -
just on who's around - when someone comes in and goes - when someone fyom
plmming branch comes in and says we need an SJA rep for a pllliilling group and you go,
"Well OK" - because em"ly in the morning I was the only one there. My colleagues
would all work 'til like 1, 2, 3 o'clock in the morning.
CDRE Smith: You'd go off to - - -
MAJ O'Kane: I'd go off probably about, you lmow, 10, 11 o'clock at night. But I'd
be in there at 8 o'clock in the morning. And we had a lot - we had representatives in the
Joint Operations Centre 24 hours a day doing shift work, but the main office - it did
work all day, basically going to late at night. And, yeah, the Coalition operations, I was
like the main point of contact. But out of that I also assisted with detainee operations. I
wasn't the main - I didn't have the lead on detainee operations that was another officer
Mr PezwUo: Who was - how - - -
MAJ O'Kane: That was another US Anny Major.
lVIIi' Pezzullo: So, who s that man? Who was - and a Major?
MAJ O'Kallc: Yeah. I - if I could just point out here, Mike, I'm not intending to give
up the nmues of these people because I don't lmow where the inforn1ation will end up
and I'm not prepared to put them into the public spotlight and although they may be
named by another source, which I know but I don't want to be the one to do that.
0' Kane-07 106/2004
1
i
Mr Pezw!Jo: I've got a feeling that the US Congress will attend to that.
MAJ O'Kane: Maybe, maybe not. I think - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Well, I suspect.
MAlO'Kane: I think if they did ..... (indistinct) ..... a fair bit up until now - - -
M'r Pezzullo: Right. Sure.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - so, yeah - so, there's another US Army Major - --
Mr Pez:w!!o: It's only a task, though, matc. It's not as though - you aren't the Ole
detention practices.
MAJ O'Kane: No, not the Ole of the detention operations area, but I help out. You
see, you know, it was a very busy job - the detainee operations. He was preparing files
for release or to try and get a hold of the whole detainee issue you know, several
thousand detainees.
Mr Pezzullo: Sure. But how can you - further to Min's sort of question about
describing your work - I mean, we generate a super human people in the ADF. How can
you sort ofnaturally just slide in - ifhe's not available to go a meeting, I mean, how can
you be situationally aware enough just to be able to kind of pick up a task like that?
MAJ O'Kane: Because you have to pick up and run with things at the drop of a hat, a
lot of crisis planning - - -
Mil" Pezzullo: That highly impresses me, I must say .
. - - - ~ - - - . - . - - ..- - - . - . - - . - ~ .. - - - - - - - . - - - . - - . - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - . - - - - - - - - , , - - . - - - - - " - - ... c'
L __ .. _ .. _. ___ . ___________ ... ___ .. ________ ._ .. __ . _______ _
-
o 'Kane-07i06f2004 20 Tape I of3
\ ~ - - - - - - - .
-- . ~ - - - -
lVIr Pezzullo; Well, call I ask you another question - and it gets back to the question
that I put to you before - other than you and the Captain having this sort of passing -
sounded almost like a hall conversation - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. It was. It was stand - I think I was on the way to a meeting or
something out of the office - --
Mr Pezzullo: And you reckon that's around 15
th
Janumy.
MAJ O'Kane: I thought it was later but, going back, having prepared the stuff -
infonnation for the Senate Estimates, probably 14th of 15
th
January.
Mr Pezzullo: Which ties in with when the US initiated the criminal investigation.
guess the question I've got that's in my mind - yep.
(Irrelevant conversation)
Mr Pezzullo: Hang on, I just want to put this question, please. I just want - given -
I've got a really vivid picture here of the sardine conditions and the fact that, you know,
you work and perform the hours. Subsequent, though, to 14th 15
th
January - and I really
want to rack - I really would like you to rack your brains to see if you can't jag this part
- you then march on or about the lOth Squadron Leader - - -
0' Kane-07 10612004 Tape 1 of3
--,
MAJ O'Kane:
Mr Pezzullo: - - - \ S.L;\Jis with - and Min, we'll Illn this down with the leggls asto
._ .when.he.goesin.countI')T'-- Ulall of that situation We reaily need to be clear il06iICtliisfor
the Minister - do you have any recall- now, I understand these are US meetings a lot of
the stuff's coming off US systems, you haven't bought - but I really need to be precise
about this, mate, if you can indulge me - between this three sentence conversation
you've desClibed and you marching out on or about lOth February, can you remember
any furiher discussion about discipline - not of photographs, not of do gs, rapes and the
rest of it, but of disciplinary action pertaining to either the guards or the Intelligence
personnel at that prison?
MAJ O'Kane: No, but there's one other - there was one other occasion which the
topics were raised. I'm just trying to remember as well - 'cause actually - a lot of the
discipline people while they were there for about the first four months, in about the last
six to eight weeks r was there a number of - to ease congestion, a lot of them moved out
to what they call the JAG house where the court-martial - - -
Mr Pezzullo: "01e what?
MAJ O'Kane: TIle JAG house,
Mr Pezzullo: The JAG house.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - where their comi martial were being -- that's where most of them
lived - where the court-martial were being conducted - - -
CDHE Smith: When was that? When was that, do you know?
MAJ O'Kane: Probably about thc last - probably December/Janua.ry period.
JVIr Pezzullo: They were moved away n-om ..... (indistinct) ...
MAJ O'Kane: They were moved to where they were doing their work, rather than
going backwards and forw3Jds all the time.
CDRE Smith: We also need .... (indistinct) ..
IVlAJ O'Kane: Yes, there about -- probably about 1000 metres away hom CJTF 7
I-I cad quarters.
M r Pezzullo: And it's a congestion issue.
MAJ O'Kane: It was a congestion issue 2J1d it was - I'll say that it was morc
convenient for them to be where the court-martials were being run. Now, not all of -
0' Kane-07/0612004 22 Tape I of3

could've been - like, there were one or tvlo left, but pretty sure - I stopped seeing some
of them and they were .. 'cause they were the moved down to JAG house. And just
assumed that they were [wlIling - you !Q10W, they had court-martials being run and they
were down there, working. Sometimes they'd been down an.d they'd come back.
'cl:HlE Smith: With the benefit of our hindsight now, do you think that that might've
been connected to a ramp up ..... (indistinct) ..... on disciplinary activity pertaining to
that prison?
MAJ O'Kane: I think, I don't think so no, no, 'cause they had a bunch of -. you had-
they had an number of hearings running like fairly regularly and it was a convenience
issue that - that's where they needed to be - that's where they were moving to.
Mr Pezwllo: Okay. All right. Well, so - if! can re-put the question and then we will
..... (indistinct)" ... - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Well, do I need to clarify that one point for you - about the second time
..... (indistinct) ..... - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Okay. Okay. Hit us with the second and then I just want to ask you
again about - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. The second time was about - was - and this is all on the same
day, or the day after - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, the same day of what?
MAJ O'Kalle: That I had this conversation with the orc of Magistrate's Cell.
MI" Pezzullo: Is that the Captain?
MAJ O'Kane: The Captain.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. ]'m SOITy. Yeah. Yeah.
fvJ:AJ O'Kane: Let's call him Captain S, if that helps you.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Sony, I'm just a bit confused. I can't keep up with you, mate.
The Major - you worked with a US Major who's the lead policy guy on detention, is
that light?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, he was one of the - all the branches there had a lead Major or
Lieutenant Colonel, including admin ..... (indistinct) ..... - --
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. But the guy you bumped into standing in a conidor was a
Captain, is that right?
o '](ane-07/06/2004
- - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - ~
23 Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, he was a Captain, yeah. He was the orc of the Magistrate's
Cell and everybody - .
I'm sorry. OkaY, Yeah. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: That's Captain S ..... (indistinct) .....
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's call him Captain S, yeah. Okay. And so he
was with the second instance?
MAJ O'Kallc: The second instance was either in my memory it was all either on the
same day or very close to it.
CDJRE Smith: Very close, yeah.
MAJ O'Kallc: We had the ICRC out brief and that what - when - after the ICRC
inspection it briefs the staff at the detention facility about what they found and it's put
into writing in a working paper or a report and - you know, several weeks down the
track. Now, we had the high value detainee inspection around about that same time -
HVD was the - that - the acronym BIAP - Baghdad International Airport.
Mr Pezzullo: The BIAP, yeah. The BIAP is where they keep the IND.
MAJ O'Kane: That's correct, yeah. 111ey've got about 100 HVDs there and they did
their - they're second inspection after the Abu Ghraib inspections in early January - 14th
January- then they left Iraq and came back a week or two later - 10 days later - to do
the HVD inspection and it was at that out brief, on the night of - sorry, not 15
th
J anumy,
the 17
th
- correct that.
Mr PezzUlllo: So, the 17
th
is what? VVhat's the lih now?
MAJ O'Kane: Actually, no, it's the 19
th
I've got wrong.
Mr PezmHo: No, you're right.
MAJ O'Kane: 19
th
Janumy. I'm looking at the date schedule ....
Mr Pezzullo: The 19
th
January is what?
MAJ O'Kane: That's the day - on or about that date, the 18
th
or 19
'h
-- that I had that
conversation with Captain S. I just looked at my schedule and I can now confirm that
date.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. Okay. YOlt reckon it's 18,19? Yeah.
0' Kane-07 106/2004
!VIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, 18, 19 January.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, which is really on the eve of the CNN disclosure.
MAJ O'Kane: Jnever saw the CNN disclosure - --
Mr Pezzullo: No, that's fine. 111at's just my -thanks, very much, mate. Very kind of
you. Well, we are going to take ..... (indistinct) .....
MAlO' Kane: It puts it in my timeline with the schedule I prepared for the DO.
Mr Pezzullo: We'll turn that off, get our brews and then we'll come back.
Record of conversation suspended
LTCOL Abbott: Tape re-starting.
Mr PezZllllo: So, 1625.
MAlO'Kane: So, the second occasion that I had an inkling about this investigation
was with the HVD out bliefon 19
th
January. Now, the ICRC were put out about that,
because they pre felTed to have their out brief the following moming - I can't remember
why, but you know some time imperative came up and we had to do it that night and - -
Mr Pezzullo: But when you said - so you had an inJcling. But what gives you this
inkling?
MAJ O'Kane: WJ1at happened was we all turned up in force - you know,. Colonel
S i-t \ turned up at the out brief a.nd after the out brief he spoke with the -- once again,
the out brief takes about, you Imow, 40 minutes, where they go through and go, "Out
with this. Not happy with that." It was - I took responsibility - my entire time in Iraq I
probably made -- to me, I made one mistake in my own mind - and I'll flag now - and
this was in relation to this pmticular inspection - inteITogation at HVD facility is mn by
the Iraqi Survey Group - the ISO - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah, the ISO, that's' right. Yeal1, yeah.
l\1AJ O'Kane: Now they'd come to the co-ordination meeting and I'd liaised with
Iheir LO at our headqualters - - -
'Ir Pezzullo: With their what, salTY?
\L\.J O'K2.ne: With their Liaison officer - --
.. -------T-a]-)c-,-]-0-,..f3
M, Pezm1!o: Sorry.
MAJ O']'(alle: - - - their Liaison officer, a Navy Commarlder atCJTF 7. r t()lci him
thafthe ollf brief was going to be on this date on this time. I made an assumption that
they would send a rep along, but I didn't close that loop and, therefore, when the ICRC
were running through their out brief - - -
MI" Pezzullo: On the HVD facility? Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - on the HVD facility, we didn't have someone iom the ISO there
to answer their specific questions- - -
MI" Pezzullo: Who were actually managing the facility.
MAJ O'Kallc: Well, no, they ran the intenogation. It was run by the Military Police.
Mr PezZll.!1o: Oleay. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kaue: But the interrogation - at Abu Ohraib was run by US Army Military
Intelligence Brigade and HVD was run by the ISG.
Mr Pezzullo: And the guards were from the 800?
M.AJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. In both places. That's right.
M1" Pezzullo: In both places, under Karpinski's brigade.
MAJ O'Kane: Under her brigade, that's right.
Mi Pezzullo: Right. Okay. Okay.
IV1AJ O'Kane: So, I apologised to the ICRC for not having organised - their people
would obviously didn't want to be there, that's why they didn't tum up. But I told there
Liaison Officer that it was on and they didn't tum up.
Mr PezzuLlo: The Liaison Officer from which Armed service?
MAJ O'Kane: He was US Navy but he works for the ISG in the Headquarters over
there.
(Irrelevant conversation)
Mr Pezzu!.lo: Okay. That's - sorry, just close it off, because we want to get back to
this "inkling" of the news. A US Navy Lieutenant Commander - - -
0' Kane-07 106/2004
---------.,-
Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kane: Commander.
lYtr Pezzullo: ...... Commander is meant to be at the LO with .. who are they liaising
with? With you?
MAJ O'Kane: No yeah, between CJTP 7 and the ISG
Mr Pezzullo: Right. I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kanc: ...... and with the Iraqi Survey Group.
Mr Pezzullo: I've got you. Yep, okay.
MAJ O'Kanc: A combination- 1 had dealings with him, set up the prcinspection
meeting .. -
Mr :rezzullo: And they just didn't show.
MAJ O'Kanc: Well, they showed for that one, but they didn't show to
MI" Pezzullo: To the out bIief.
MAJ O'Kane: .. - . to the out brief.
Mr Pezzullo: Sony, you said that you flagged- and I was, you know, intrigued .. you
said there was one mistake .. - -
MAJ O'Kal1e: And that was the mistake. 1 didu't
Mr Pezzullo: You didn't ... there was a .....
]VlAJ O'Kane: ... ensure ... I didn't ensure _. I probably should have got Colonel
Warren to ... because I didn't expect them not to (urn up, but I didn't lock the gate on that
Issue.
Mr Pezzullo: Understood.
MAJ O'KallC: We didn't make sure they would turn up, that was the point.
Mr Pczzullo: Understood.
MAT O'Kanc: W11ich left some unanswered questions for the lCRC with questions
about interrogation and - yeah, without going into any more detail which is probably not
relevant Like, you Imow, they said, you know, not getting their parcels and they've got
to be checked by the ISG first - excuse me for a moment.
(Mobile telephone ringing)
o 'Kane07 106/2004 27
SIOCREI
Tape 1 of3
(
(Tape turned off)
LTCOL Abbott: Recommenccmcnt oftape.
MAJ O'Kane: Sorry, sorry.
1\111' Pezzullo; No, you're right. You're right. So - I understand that and - but there's
an inkling of abuse.
IVIAJ O'Kgnc: Yeah. it all happened after the out brief, after the out brief had finished
you know we were all miIling around. I was talking to the I - Baghdad ICRC
representative and I think we talk - it was the last time 1 was going to ... you know, we'll
see each other and we'd worked together, you know, for some time .... ..
Ml' Pezzullo: That's right, 'cause you're going soon, aren't you.
MAJ O'Kane: I'm about to go. r go, yeah, in the next couple of weeks. And, you
know, I was making sure that, you know, there were arrangements in place for them to
assist with their inspections and all that sort of stuff and Colonel Warren comes up and
he starts apologising to this Reel Cross representative ......
Mr Smi.th: Apologising?
MAJ O'Kallc: Apologising in that we've .. you know, "J need to tell you that, you
know, there's you know, we're investigating allegations of abuse" and that point J felt
that I wasn't .... this was between hiul and the ICRC rep ... but he wasn't, you know,
looking at me .... ..
Mr Pezzullo: The Colonel wasn't?
MAJ 0 'Kane: He sort of came uJl to me and he was looking at her - not interrupting,
but ......
Mr Pezzullo: But he didn't ask you to excuse yourself?
MAJ O'Kane: He didn't ask me to excuse myself, but he wasn't .. it was a discussion
with the ICRC representative ......
IVir Pezzullo: It was a bilateral discussion.
MAJ O'Kaue: It was a bilateral discussion and I and I was -I thought, oh, Well, I'll
leave them to it ......
lV11' Pezzullo: You might as well have been a column.
O'Kane-07!06!2004 28
.S.I2CREI
Tape 1 of3
MAJ O'Kal1e: well, I thought - well, I wasn't part of it so ....
IIJ[r Pezzullo: So what happened?
1\1AJ O'Kauc: Well, I moved away so they could have a private discussion.
M, Pezzullo: You moved away ... Okay. And so - --
111AJ O'Kauc: Okay. I assumed - but - well, I'm certain that he was telling her about,
you know, the same thing that Captain S had mentioned to me earlier that day or the day
before - that there was an abuse allegation they were investigating and I think he was
apologising - he was apologising to her that they - you know, we hadn't given emphasis
to this earlier and
[Note: From Major O'Kane - I am speculating here]--
Ml' Pezzullo: To what earlier?
MAJ O'K:me: To the allegation of mistreatment.
MJ' Pezzullo: I'm just trying to understand what he's trying to apologise for.
MAJ O'Kaue: Yeah. Well, I think he was embarrassed at the fact that US Army
soldiers are now alleged to have mistreated Iraqi detainees.
Mr PezzHiJo: But can I ask you this very carefully, though, 'cause it's relevant to my
methodology - you lmow that now because you've gone through April, photographs,
videotapes, congressional heating.
MAJ O'Kaue: Yeah.
Mr PezZIlHo: I'm not asking you to reflect back in that sense through that prism; what
is your recall - and I lmow it's difficult in a psychological sense - what do you think
contemporaneously - what did you think contemporaneously that conversation was
about, without what you know now?
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Without lmowing what I do now, there was an allegation of
mistreatment of detainees and it was being investigated - - -
Mr Pezw[lo; At the prison?
MAJ O'Kane: _. - at the prison - -
M,' Pezzullo; So, that was in your mind, you think, at the time?
-
0' Kane-O 7/06/2004 Tape 1 of3
1I1AJ 0 'Kane: Well, yeah, that was the topic, yeah, there was no other reason for
him - _ ..
1111" Pezzullo: What about the HVD facility, or in the field or - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, HVD facility is a different environment.
Mr Pezzullo: Different environment?
MAJ O'Kanc: There are a hundred persons at the HVD facility It is under the highest
scrutiny of all the detention facilities in theatre - you know, they're very, very well
controlled with a high ratio of suppoli to Iraqi detainees with their situation so there's -
well, I'd fall over backwards ifthere was anything going on there, or that would crop up
as the serious abuse we saw in those photographs whereas at Abu Ghraib 5000 or 6000,
you know, detainees are interned there.
Mr Pezzullo: Could I - this is only a Devil's advocate, though - same military police
brigade - - -
MAJ O'Kaue: Different battalion, different companies. I don't recall which MP
company that, you know, probably] 00 soldiers are dedicated to that facility. In fact,
they've got more there now.
M, Pezzullo: And what, high quality personnel? More professional .. ".(indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: They don't have the same demands on thom. They're in a very, very
secure environment as well. Unlike the Army that is undergoing frequent attack like at
Abu Ghraib.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhich is being mortared and shot at.
MAJ O'Kane: MOliared and shot at. Yeah, maybe it would'vo been - well, one of our
interpreters was wounded in a mortar attack there the week after I left.
1111' Pezzullo: Because it's some distance away, or - --
MAJ O'Kane: It's in a comer of this Sunni triangle and, you Know, there's been
scores of people killed out there - scores of people out there - - -
111, Pezzullo: Scores, yeah.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Detainees as well as several US Army personnel.
CDRE Smith: And J just, hom open sowce reporting, get the sense that that was
contributing to some of the morale issues these guys getting shot at - - -
O'!(ane-07106/2004 Tape 1 of3
- j :<:
! (. ,
SECREt "'0,,',:""'::'
MAJ O'Kal1e: I'm sure it would've, I'm sure it would've, yeah, We had real
concerns 'cause we would get reports when it was under attack - we got - we got people
we know out there that were trying to ring them to, you know, make sure they were OK
)\1)( PezzuHo: You mean this is the Navy JAG people? Yeah,
J\1AJ O'Kane: JAG people from our office out there,
Mr Pezzullo: Who defends against those aiiacks - the Military Police?
MAJ O'Kanc: Originally it was the military police but, you know, that's like people
in guard towers - but after people kept on getting killed - - -
MJr Pezzullo: They get killed? Yeah,
MAJ O'Kanc: Detainees have been killed, as well as soldiers There's one of them was
aMI - Commander's Dliver - you lmow, I used to seem him daily, After one Saturday
night, gone, Tenible, Killed,
CDRE Smith: Yeal1, Yeah, But you're contrastiug that though with - --
MAJ O'Kane: The HVD environment.
CDlRE Smith: - - - the environment ofHVD,
MAJ O'Kane: That's right. HVD is in the middle of the most secure area in Baghdad,
CDlRE Smith: In this gTcen zone thing, is it?
MAJ O'Kane: It's not in the green zone, but it's - - -
CDRE Smith: It's at the airport?
MAJ O'Kane: It's at the airport.
CDRE SHutl!: Right.
[Note: Eight sentences deleted for security reasons, These sentences have no bearing
on the report. J
LTCOL Abbott: I have a question, and it's just following on - it's just one question,
When you said that you were talking - you were talking with the ICRC representative
after the out bIief - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah, Casual conversation,
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 31 Tape I of 3
(
LTCOL AbboLt: ...... fmd Colonel - and Colonel Warren came up and engaged in
what Y01! took to be sort of an apology or whatever.
MAJ 0 'Kane: Yes. He was informing her that there was a problem ...
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah. Okay. But that .. but the conversation was bilateral ......
(over talking)
MAJ O'I(anc: "Sorry to say [;aery to say that we're investing" ......
LTCOL Abbott; Alld then commenced on a bilateral conversation with her. Did you
move away basically out of deference to a senior officer .. that he was having a
conversation, you were ajunior officer lei: him have a bit of distance and privacy?
MAJ O'I(anc: That's right. He didn't come over and say to me, "George, leave." It
was really like a very .. highest respect for Colonel Warren- you know, one of those
professional officers you deal with .. very straight down the line, but just by his body
language you can tell that - he didn't have to ask me to move away .. -
CTeOL Abbott: He wanted to have a plivate conversation.
MAJ O'I(ane: He wanted a private cOllversation.
LTCOL Abbott: Fine. That's all I wanted to ask.
(over talking)
MAJ O'Kane: If I was feeling pushy I cOi.lld probably stayed there and he may not
have asked me to move away, but 1- he had something he wanted to say privately with
the lCRC representative.
LTCOL Abbott: And oul: of deference to him you ......
MAJ O'Kane:
conversation.
And in deference to him I'll move away to let him have his
Mr Pezzullo: And we've established very clearly that we're talking about the prison ....
111AJ 0 Well, I can't imagine what else it ..... (indistinct) .....
MI' Pezzullo: Okay. Let's go .
___ __ __ __ _____ __ __ ___
0'Kane-07/06/2004 32 Tape 1 of 3

Ms Patterson: Right. TIle next issue. George, just turning to, you lmow, the drafting
of what ends up General Karlinski's response to the lCRe - were you the only person
doing that? How did that sort of come about?
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I used to be out of the office a fair bit, but I
remember it was an afternoon and -- actually, I've got the week - okay, I've got the last
week of November. In the last week of November I was sitting there, working on
something else, working on that week and an officer - I remember an officer came in
with some documentation which he gave - he or she, I can't remember who it was -
there was people walking aronnd all the time - and I sort of remember that this was
given to the Deputy Staff Judge Advocate at his desk yon lmow, you're sort of interested
in what's being brought in - 811d the Deputy Staff Judge Advocate then immediately
asked me if I would prepare ICRC reports sUlllinaries and "Can you have a go at a draft
reply". - - -
Mr k'ezzullo : You were tasked by this - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: Tasked, yeah, yeah - --
Mr Pezzullo: To do the application.
MAJ O'Kane: - - - to work up a reply. He asked- first of all he asked me to work up
a reply; later that day, or might've been the next day, he also asked me to work up a
summary of them - he might've read them first, but there could been a time delay there,
or - he might've asked me and then read them and then gave them to me, you know, 20
minutes later. But in the aftemoon they came in I remember them arriving - 'cause I
didn't actually see them until- well, they were given to me some time that afternoon but
I was working on other matters at that time, and I know he asked me to work up a reply
- draft a reply - he also me asked me to work on a summary and prepare covering letters
that went up the chain of conunand enclosing the summary and enclosing the actual
repOli.s. They went to two star Generals and they also went to Brigadier General Fast
who's the C2 she's the Senior Intelligence Officer on the Headquarters.
Mr Pezmllo: Within Seven?
MAJ O'Kanc: Within CJTF 7 - all in CJTF 7.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kane: ..... (indistinct) ..... now but - - .
LTCOL Abbott: But were you replying from a US perspective - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: - - - or from a Coalition perspective?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape I of3
MAJ O'Kane: I was replying from an 800'11 MP Brigade perspective.
My Pezztdlo:Couldlask;nowwhy is that? Thisrep"ort was addressed to whom?
MAJ O'Kane: It was addressed to Brigadier General Karpinksi.
Mr Pezzullo: Right. Right.
MAJ O'Kalle: And this is where the confusion has crept in, as well. I've called it a
report, 'cause to me it was a report on the previous inspection but, in fact, it's titled
Working Paper. I thought that was just a JCRC descriptor.
Mr Pezzullo: So, it's labelled I mean, I've seen this material, but it's labelled as
Working Paper.
MAJ O'Kallc: Working Paper, but I've always refened to it as a report.
Mr Pezzullo: I see.
MAJ O'Kane: Because to me it's a report, you know - a report on the inspection but,
in fact knowing what I know now, in fact, it was Working Paper that contJibuted to a
larger report, you know, in Febuary.
Mr Pezwllo: Which is the - oleay, that's the February IC - -
MAJ 0 'Kane: I've not seen a copy of it.
!Vfs If'atterscm: and when you - so, what liaison - you know, the sort of talk you talk to
you, you know who did you speak with to finalise that draft response. What liaison did
you undertake, was it with just Staff or with detainees as well, what was the general
response when you went out there?
MAJ O'Kaue: Okay. I don't - I did a - once again, there's no urgency on this. They
said, "No, just do this when you get time" -
Mr Pezzullo: Lead time, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - you know ..... it has to be done but it's not urgent, it's not life and
death like other matters were. (tape runs out) ....
End of tape one
[Note: The Notetaker notes that between tapes there continued to be some discussion
about:
Major O'Kane was the main person dealing with the ICRC as an overflow of
tasking from Detainee Ops.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 34 Tape 2 of3
. SECRET
;r} (f: [ .. T:' ,'"
At the same time, he is handling queries from the multinational divisions,
CMA IT and the new Iraqi Army and the rCDC Selection Board.
Once he was tasked with the draft reply at the end of November 03, Major
O'Kane hecamethe'ICRC person' who would go to meetings witllthe ICRC
at CPA, and he first became involved with the ICRC on behalf of CJTF-7 at
this stage.
Either Major O'Kane or the Chief Detention Operations when available
would go to rCRC meetings.]
Tape two
LTCOL Abbott: Tape resuming.
CDRE Smith: Okay. We were talking about the drafting of the response to this report.
MAJ O'Jl(ane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: Timeline roughly?
MAJ O'Jl(aJ1e: And then in late November it came into our office. Now, I could be
wrong, but my memory is that I wasn't involved in any ICRC meetings until aaer that
report came in. But I could be wrong. It's just that - yeah, that's what I - to me, my
memory that - that is the issue that started me off with an ICRC connection - doing
those reports and doing a draft reply.
Mr Pezzullo: And you think from late November onwards?
MAJ O'Kane: Definitely Late November. Late November onwards.
Mr lPezmllo: And that tallies np with the visit out there about 4 December, or
thereabouts?
N1AJ O'Kane: That's right, yeah. So, you know, the following week I've probably sat
down, looked at how much I could do by myself and how much I needed assistance with
!VII' Pezzullo: Go out there and got to go talk to them.
MAJ O'Kane: I've got to - well, you know got to go talk to them - I had no
knowledge about answering any of the issues they raised without talking to the, you
know, people that were out there. Bear in mind that all that visit out there - I'm not
trying to be confusing but that was my third visit out there that I'd gone to but my first
on ICRC-related business ..... (indistinct) .....
Mr Smith: So what happens then, mate?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
Ms Patterson: Okay. So, who did you see out there. " .. (indistinct). " ..
MAJf O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. So, now once again, there's an allegation of
mistreatmentinthatreport I've hot read it sinceIWas[i1Iraq. Igavea copy brlTl
lh
May - but I didn't read it again - I just gave a copy to Strategic Ops because of
presentations. I've not read it for some time. But the thing that stuck in my mind was,
you know, panties on the head was a source of humiliation and verbal abuse, laying
naked in the cell with a MRE packet covering their genitalia. Yeah, it could've been - -
Mr Pezzullo: That's like a little meal pack.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. So - --
M. Pezzullo: So, without reading it and refi'eshing your memory about it, that's kind
of stuck in your mind fyom that period?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But on top of the - besides that, you know,
unsubstantiated, no detailed allegations, no name mentioned, you know, and so f011h.
There was, you know, four or five other pages, or other issues the ICRC were concerned
with but, once again, those are those general concerns about, you know, food, water,
hygiene, religion, shelter, protection from attack .- you know, all those other tangible
issues which could actually be addressed with resources to actually improve conditions
out there. So, I've gone - and this is like a - you lmow, I'd do it again, but it's
dangerous going out to Abu Ghraib, dangerous.
CDRE Smith: Sounds like it.
MAJ O'Kane: Dangerous place. There's lED - improvised explosive device attacks
on that road, ambushes they conduct on that road going out there, so it's not sort of
thing, you know, you'd quickly go and do.
1\1ll' Pezzullo: Yeah, just to hop in your car and zip out there.
MAJ O'Kane: It's about -- well, if you go the Australian way it's about a 40 minute
drive; if you go the American Army way it's probably about a 20 minute drive, so
there's two variations.
CORE Smith: Kind of if you want to get killed on the way out there - the more careful
Australian way.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, in fact, that US Army way point to the safer route you Imow,
Intelligence officer of the MI brigade, they thought they're way was safer, if you went
out the Australians way it was riskier out there and she was trying to convince them to
go a different way - - -
0' Kane-07 /0612004 36 Tape 2 of3
Mr Pezzullo: The Aussie way or - - -
MfAJ O'Karre: Yeah, don't go her way, she knows where all the attacks are and she
was sort of concerned that we were going another way and the driver would expose us to
danger, but the NCO had already done his reconnaissance on the way to go.
Jl1r Pezzullo: So, that's - you jumped in Australian protect ..... (indistinct) .....
Australian protection.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, it varied. Sometimes I went with the US Army, sometimes I went
with the Australians.
Nir Pezzullo: Yeah. So, whoever's got the rig.
MAJ O'Kane: And depending whether they, you know have plans to go out. So, I
went out there specifically to 11m through this [CRC - but once I got co-ordinated with
them, "I'm corning out, I want to, you know - like to spealc to these officers about this
topic" and put the request for transport in, try and sort out a time that suits everyone, so
it's a painstaking business and it's communications are not always clear on and off, and
. [ went out there on 4th December.
CDRE Smith: VVbo did you see?
MAJ O'K:me: Now, okay, I saw out there - they -[ saw the Commanding Officer of
the Military Police battalion.
CDRE Smith: Of the battalion.
MAJ O'KUl:lc: Yeah. I've got the number of that battalion somewhere, but don't
recall it off the top of my head. A number of his staff officers were there - you know,
his XO his operations officer, his 33 - some NCOs, from memory, were there.
CDRE Smith: NCOs, yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: There was about like 10, 15 people in this room, 'cause I remember [
pulled the table out -[ sat at the table with the [CRC report and read it out paragraph by
paragraph and they all- - -
Mr Pezzullo: Their report, yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. And so there was also some of my people and the Lieutenant
Colonel, he's in charge of the Joint Intelligence Interrogation Debriefing Centre - JIDC
they call it - - -
CDRESmith: TheJIDC,yeah.

o 'Kane-07 106/2004
Tape2of3
37
:0:.'
MAJ O'l'(ane: The JIDC -- the JIDC chief - - -
CDRE Smith: There's a JIDC out there and there's other JIDCs - but there's a JIDC
out there at the prison.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That's the interrogation capability -
[vIr Smith: Yeah. No, I understand that.
MAJ O'Kanc: He was there with, I assume - they didn't identify themselves and he
came with his crew but the MPs were there in number
MAJ O'Kane: And he was a Battalion Commander, as well?
MAlO'Kane: No. Well, he was - no, 1- they've got a interrogation - my understand
is that they have an interrogation company there and he was the JIDC chief rather than
the company commander.
CDRE Sooth: Can I ask you this question, George? Okay. They - the JlDC chief-
no names, no pack drills at the moment - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: The other person who was accompanied by - I'm not talking about the
MPs here - you identified - what did you say, an XO, NCOs - - -
MAJ O'Kalle: XO, NCOs, 33 Operations officer.
MJ( Pezmllo: 33, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Probably their S1.
Mr lPezzullo: Their Sl. That's on the MP side?
MAJ O'.Kane: MP side.
Mr Pez:w!lo: Let's call that the 320
th
subject to checking.
MAJ O'K(ane: Yeah. Yeah. Part of 800
th
MP Brigade.- --
Mr Pezzullo: On the JIDC side - and it's not the MI battalion - - -
MfAJ O'Kane: Yeah, he's part of the Ml.
Mr Pezzullo: I'm SOlTy, he's part of it.
O'Kane-07!06!2004 Tape20f3
MIAJ O'Kane: Yeah,
111r Pezzullo: He identified himself as a fIDC chief. What ranl is the JIDC - - -
lViAJ O'Kane: Lieutenant Colonel.
Mr Pezzullo: US Lieutenant Colonel.
MAJ O'Kane: Lieutenant Colonel J -like, the JIDC chief.
My PezztJ!Ho: Other persons who - - -
MAJ O'Kame: I might've met him previously, I can't remember.
MI' Pezzu[lo: And you don't need to give me the name, I'm not demanding it, okay,
MAJ O'KaneOK, no, no, that's fine - - - ,
Mr Pez:w!!o: But you would - you could identify him by name if you needed to?
MAJ O'Kane: Yes, Yes.
MI' Pezzlill!!o: Could you identify any other persons in his party by name? Or were
they just nameless to you?
111AJ O'JI(ane: Nameless to me at the time
lVir Smith: In US Marine _. US Army unifOlllis?
lViAJ O'Kane: US -- US Army uniform. Everyone was US Army. I was the only non
US Army unifOllli in the whole place,
CDRE Smith: Righto, So you had every reason to believe that they were just straight
US Anny persolmel?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah,
CDRE Smith: Yeah,
MAJ O'Kane: and once again, I only - even though everyone was there - there was a
bunch of people there, like, we were talking to then and I went tl11'ougb that ICRC
report paragraph by paragraph - - -
CDRE SwJth: Paragrapb by paragraph, yeah.
.-
----
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape2of3
MAJ O'KaDe: - - - asking for -- you know asking for input from them to help me
prepare a reply.
I11r Pezz(!!lo:' Yeah' ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: Yep [needed their assistance.
Mr Pezzullo: ..... (indistinct) ..... you're fyorn? They all know where you're from?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, obviously they did 'cause they knew [was from Corps .... are not
there 'cause, I mean, their co-operation provide me with information to put a reply to the
ICRC Working Paper.
CDRE Smith: And then you discuss your issues.
MAJ O'Kallo: You lmow, "Ladies and gentlemen, that having raised the concerns and
obviously I've read fhem out, or summarised them in the following - yeah, that
particular feedback r needed from them -. - -
Mr Pezzullo: Is this oral feedback?
MAJ O'Kane: Oral feedback verbal feedback on, yeah, we're improving this, or, you
lenow, we haven't got enough manpower to do anything about that" et cetera, et cetera
through to the end offhe report.
CDRE Sl'1mth: But you're sitting there, taking notes.
MAJ O'Kane: I'm taking notes.
CDRE Smith: Yep.
MAJ O ' K ~ m e : When we get to the allegations of mistreatment, I read those out to
tbem and asked for their views. Just by background - this guy hom MI tbought the
ICRC were French Intelligence. I was asked the question of who screened the ICRC
inspectors hom French Intelligence. That's what we're - that's where I'm coming
fyom.
CDRlE Smith: And I presume -- were they the MPs, or the JIDCs, or both?
MAJ O'Kane: They're MIs.
CDRE Smith: '111e MIs, yeah. TIle more the men'ier, isn't it?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. But they were - --
CDRE Smith: Was that he CO just out of - perchance? Or just other - - -
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
MAJ O'f-(arre: I would prefer not to athibute that particular corrmlerrt to any particular
individuaL
CDRE Smith: An interesting comment though, George.
MAJ O'Kane: An interesting comment, okay.
CDRE Smith: Yeah. Okay. Sorry, go allead.
MAJ O'Klllle: But anyway but going back - you know, so they went through saying,
"Yep. Well, we think can improve this .. You know, now - that's now no longer
accurate, you know, they're now getting, you know, three showers a week instead of
one" and that sort of feedback. In regard to the allegations of mistreatment, they denied
- they denjed that happened.
Mr Pezwllo: Straight denial? Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Straight denial. Except the tal(e - in regard to the allegations the MPs
they said they take their - they taken their own clothes off in their cells - bearing in
mind it's summer 50 degrees - bloody hot-
Mr PezZltllo: Bloody hot, yeah.
MAJ O'Klllle: Then they take their own clothes off in their cells - you know, that's
rubbish - they're making that up.
CDRE Smith: Right. Yeah. And you're not asserting any disparity here - MPs, MIs
- basically they're all saying the same thing?
lVlAJ O'Kane: No. Yeah, nodding- all nodding to each other.
CDRE Smith: All nodding, yeah. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: Going, "That's right." I don't doubt - I don't doubt that they weren't
sincere. I mean it's my first meeting with them but to me they were being upfront.
Now, bearing in mind this is not the first time they would been exposed to these
comments because they would've been exposed to that at the ICRC out brief after that
earlier inspection - . -
CDRE Smith: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
MAJ 0 'Kane: If I could perhaps, sir - just put a timeline up ...
CDRE Smith: Yeah, please. That'd be great.
O'Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape2of3
MAJ O'Kane: Now, I can't remember if Abu Ghraib - and I think: this October -- I
think this is 'round about October '03 there is the TIrst inspection out of that comes two
Working Papers, one related to each of the different organisations - sorry, facilities -
okay - two WorkingPaperscclate November we '- SJA receives -, what date did I say?
4th December __ _
CDRE Smith: 4th December is your - - -
MAJ O'Kane: 4th December is the Abu Glu-aib inspection and what have you. I
finalised that draft in - I think it's dated - I can't remember - I think it's dated 26
th
December, !i:om memory - - -
MI" Smith: Either that or 24th maybe.
MAJ O'Kalle: Yeah.
Mr Smith: Questioli mark that.
MAJ O'Kalle: Question mark. Now, this is one reply to cover both those working
papers.
CDRE Smith: So, they do ..... (indistinct) ..... do they - taking the other one - - -
MAJ O'Kane: The draft reply was prepared, one reply by Brigadier General
Karpinski ...
CDRE Smith: So, she responds to the ICRC.
MAJ a'Kane: Yeah, it's addressed to her in the first place, that's right, so I - --
CDRE S!nith: So, she does her thing.
MAJ a'Kane: You know, so I do it up on US Army 800 MP Brigade letterhead, you
know, so I've gone out there - that's my - that's the meeting - you know, that sort of
denial to the ICRC allegations was expressed.
MIs Patterson: And when you sort of go back ..... (indistinct) ..... so you don't sort of
see everybody else except these ..... (indistinct)" ... when you go back with the draft, do
you have any sort of knowledge of what happens to it after that? I mean, does your draft
sort of massaged a little?
MAJ a'Kane: It gets massaged by --by my Marine colleague and the Chief of
Detention Ops, but my Marine colleague, but he's the - in fact, he's the chief of the cell
- they like the term Chief of the Operations Law cell - Marine Major - --
-------,--'---_.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
lVir Pezzullo: He's your supervisor, as such? Or the same rank, but he heads up the
cell.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeith, same rank. Yea.h, he heads up the cell under the DSSA.
lVir Pezzullo: Right. Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: J mean, he's got access to SJPRNET, he's generally with the US only
and sensitive issues - - .'
Ml' Pezzullo: Sure. He's a Maline.
MAJ O'Kanc: He's a marine, yeah. And he celtainly had the first you know, he had
the part - you know, he had the chop and made some amendments, Colonel \ValTerr'
also made some amendments and all those were incorporated those into the final draft.
Ml' Pezzullo: So, you got document coniTol, have you? They're coming back to you?
MAJ O'1(:111e: Yeah. l'll give them a hard copy alld Colonel WalTen . - -
Mr l'czzuI!o: Yeah, right.
O'Kane: - - - makes his, yeah, changes on it or you know, major , .. rnakes his
changes on it Major K first and then - - ..
CDRE Smitll: Alphabetic K.
MAJ O'Kane: Alphabetic K.
CDRE Smith: Ye'th. Yeah. As opposed to, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: That's obviously a reverse of - - ..
CDRE Smith: No, that's what I'm saying, so .. - yeah.
lViAJ 0 'Kane: ..... (indistinct) .....
CDRE Smith: No, we understand ..... (indistinct) ..... yeah.
lViAJ O'Kane: And we have a ..... (indistinct) ..... towards - this is towards mid
December when this happened and then .- and then it goes 011 to Bdgadier General
Karpinski aIld she probably had a good week or two to sign off - - ..
Mr l'ezzllIlo: So, who releases it to her? Warren?
MAJ O'Kane: No, no, ] give -J think] email it to her ..... (indistinct) ........ .
m __ ____ __ __ _____
0'Kanc .. 07/0612004 43 Tape 2 of3
.:?B .. c;:Jl[lI
(
SECRET
IVfr Pezzullo: Right. Sorry, I'm SOITY, I'll rephrase my question. Colonel Warren
authorises release once he's happy with the draft? Because you don't have any
discretion, ' ,
1I1AJ O'Kanc:
incorporate them.
Well, it's not as formal as that. He makes his changes fmd I
1I1r Pezzullo: Understood. But you don't have any discretion in saying, "No, I think
the good Colonel is in error." You just make the changes,
1I1AJ 0 '[Cane: 1'10, I make the changes,
1I1r Pezzullo: Right. And then you then convey the document - okay, thank you,
1I1AJ O'1(ane: Yeah. And then I'd - I've actnal1y sent it to the 800 MP staff officer,
he .. - you know, we - you know, it's been cleared by Colonel Warren, cleared, , ,
Mr PezznUo: So, it's got that authority to it.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Yeah. It's notjnst 0'[(311(; but it's been read and clern:ed by the
office ., ..
Mr Peziullo: So, in organisational tenns, that is staff, JAG drafl for her to consider.
lVIA.J O'.Kane: That's light. That's right, yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: Oleay,
MAJ O'Kane: And then, yeah, couple of days later it comes back to me in a envelope
addressed to the ICRe So, I have not seen whether or not .... and I've asked her staff
officer, "Oh, did she D1alW <my ch,mges?" She says, "I don't think so" .-. but I never saw
what -- they had the electronie copy so I don't know, you know, whether or not she
changed it or not.
1118 Patterson: And just going baek to the changes, was it substantially changed from
yom draft. .. 'cause it seems to be yom draft. !t's pnblic.
MAS O'Kane; Yeah. Probably Major K made quite a number of changes to it, but
they were more Australianisms tlimed into Americanisms ldnd of chrn1ges ......
CDRE Smith: Into MaTine sort of ......
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. He made quite a few suggestions, Colonel Warren also came in
,- you know, we debated the - I think I did include in there an issue about the allegations
about the mistreatment allegations .. .. you know, the word "ill treatment or
I
mistreatment" in tenns of what the ICRC used, as opposed to, you know conditioning
for interrogation. In one of the early drafts I think had something in it about, you know,
the allegations of illtreatrnent and it was denied and then the discussions were, "111is
.isn
2
tgoing tD beconducivcto our-relationship with the ICRGtogo in"- it made this
complaint a point of disagreement so it was sort of taken out of the draft as there was
not enough evidence to support it one way or another. So, it was left out but at the same
- we were trying to create a letter with a conciliatory tone rather than, you know an
adversarial stance deliberately - 'cause I remember deleted the allegations of
illtreatment because, no evidence. If I've mentioned, you know, if you've got 5000 or
6000, you know, "Saddam Fedayen, fonner regime elements, Islamic extremists, you
know, a couple of terrorists, you know, all thrown in there and then you don't need to
read that report to know that they're not going to be complimentary about the treatment,
'cause these people hate the Americans with a passion, just like the suicide bombers
there and, sure some will complain. So, in that context there is - to me it's obvious, but
maybe it's not so obvious to other people and of course they're going to complain about
their treatment to the ICRC report.
Ml' Pezzullo: But complaints, not, if you like - I see what you're saying. What you're
saying is that the detainees have got every reason to be complaining, whether iII-
founded or founded they are - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Well, that's a reasonable assumption in the context of the place
CDRE Smith: - - - to the ICRC interlocutors, okay.
MAJ O'Kane: 111at's right. But it's all - the one to - you know, it's - maybe not all
of them but, you know, some of them - some of them are obviously goiug to make that
point. And, of course, the ICRC don't give you names or anything like that, so there's an
allegation that's difficult to substantiate from their report, there's no detail, that's why,
to me, I've always discounted it 'cause there's no detail, but nevertheless raised it with
the Americans - you know, US officers in charge of the place - they denied it, you know,
the issue's dead, until the photographs come out - bearing in mind this is the second
time that, you know, they've been made aware of it, as well - plus, you know, the
allegations are brought up to a two star General .. one and two star Generals III
Headquarters, so, you know, it's exposure at Headquarters was made as well.
1\18 Patterson: The other sort of big issue that's sort of coming out is the presentation
before the visits.
MAJ O'Kane: Sure. Yeall. Yeah.
Ms Patterson: And that sort of goes a little bit from our ..... (indistinct) ..... talking
about the interpretations of the Geneva Convention, especially Article Five - what were
the reaction of the Americans to that presentation and how did those interpretations
come about?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 45 Tape 2 of3
Mid O'Kane: Okay. Yeall.
Ms Patterson: Was there any feedback for you about implementation of Aliicle V?
fViAJ O'Kane: Okay. Before I go on with that )'11 just finish" )'11 mention that there
was a specific allegation of mistreatment ii-om the HVD facility and - 'cause they
actually named one of the detainees that suffered burn injuries as a result of his capture
al1d the fact the US Army had to investigate that was confirmed in the draft letter md I
had to latcr speak to the MPs to rem.ind them to investigate it
CDRE Smith: (Garbled name) yeal1.
MAT O'Kane: Yeal1, (garbled name), 'cause that name was in the HVD inspection
report and wasn't linked to any allegation ofmislreatment. Now, when you have a name
along with that, bearing in mind their priorities were in other places, they were going to
have a lack of urgency, instead of devoting resources to HVD at BIAP. But we
acknowledged what was iu that letter and confinued that. Now we have to investigate
that 'cause that's the right thing to do with an allegation of that type.
CDRE Smith: 'Cause I - this is on - under her charge.
lV.iAJ O'Kalle: Yeal1, under her command.
CDRE Smith: They informed us that you sent a .. ... (indistinct) ..... reply" " "
IVIAJ O'Kane: That's right.
1111" Smith: """ but there was both reports.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That's right. But then, well, we found out at the ICRC out brief
later that, in the matter was not investigated and the Brigadier General had signed a
letter saying that they were going to investigate it, so we had to follow that up by raising
it with the 800"' MP Brigade LNO at the HQ. Going back the presentation now, okay.
Now"" -
Ms Patterson: And there's a - and what's really interesting to try and determine is
interpretations of the Geneva Convention between AS and US md Article Five and what
position that put you in, in that you were an Australian officer.
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Now, background to that is that as a result of working on [CRC
working papers, [ saw that the IeRC had all SOlis of problems in - October [ think it was
their October inspection - actual practical difficulties with it.
Mr Pezzullo:
inspection, yeah.
Yeah, that's right, yeah, as distinct from an earlier - any earlier
o 'Kane-O? 106/2004
(
MAJ O'Kal1e: Yeah, I didn't - I wasn't involved in the earlier inspection, so the first
thing I knew about it was late November when the working papers carne in. Right.
Now, clearly r can't influence the detention process or any living conditions, whereas,
tll(jQ111ytl1itlglcilIlassisLwith ism!!king.suretheir visit.was .. avasLimprovement over
the frustration they had in that October visit for the next visit in January. Now, I'm
dismayed to hear about some newspaper report that I've allegedly colluded with the US
Army to prevent their inspectious. Now, they turned up unannounced in the October.
My memory is this a place under - not hourly or daily, but under attack - - -
Unidentified male: It was a threat, yeah.
1\1AJ O'Kane: A dangerous place. There's hundreds of Iraqis lined up outside
because they've got a visitor's access programme going on. The [CRC turned up
unannounced is not going to work, you know, solely because their safety is at risk and
because of the practicalities of the location to, you know, the ICRC - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Talk to ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. Yeah. That sort of thing, so - --
CDRE Smith: Well, what about Min's question about - --
MAJ O'Kane: I'm heading to that. ..
CDRE Sm.it!J: I'm sorry. Yeah.
MAJ O'Kanc: This is further information. So, what it involved was that I - we
discussed it with ICRC as to how to resolve this problem - with the ICRC tlu'ough
December and we actlJally improved their visit, we agreed with them and like I sought
their agreement as well, we agreed that - bealing in mind there'd be no free .... you know,
liee access fl.-om unannounced visits, they could brive us dates so we would work
together to get the dates that they were coming and we could ensure that their visit was
up and would go through smoothly. You know, this is a huge place so - and the
buildings housed a small number of internees, but 99 per cent of the place, it's all
exposed, in the open, there's nothing to hide from an ICRC inspector with fal' more
detainees in the compounds. So, the [CRC agreed, "Yeah, we'll tell you when we are
coming because the threat remained that if they turned up unannounced, yeah, they risk
actually getting shot. There were car bombs, you know - you got your car bombs being
delivered to particular places - and they come in a car - by car, so, you know, protection
was their business. So they were- with tbeir agreement, they were happy to go "Well
advise when we are coming, things can be organised for us, you know, we're working in
tbat type of environment"
LTCOL Abbott: George, if I just take you back this time to get Article V.
IVIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, sure.
O'Kane-07/06/2004 47 Tape 2 of 3
(
LTCOL Abbott: W1lCn you were settling some drafts about the law, the subject law,
particularly what Article Five of GC 4 meant,.
MAJ O'Kane: Yes. Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: ,. ,. ,. c,m you step us tllJough the process in the staffing chain that
was involved there, and your role in that and the role of any other,. ,. ,.
IViAJ O'Kaue: Sure. We mentioned Article Five in the JCRC reply. I can't remember
at the moment how we addressed it
LTCOL Abbott: What I've got here'" and I should record this - is tbat ,. '" '"
MAJ O'Kane: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: .... ,. is your two drafts here, George, there's your ,. one is the onc
i.om 25
th
of November '" ,. ,.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
LTCOL Abbott: - .. '" which is yours, and then we also have an undass, unsigned - I
should point out for the record. we also have General Karpinski's unsigned letter as well,
which also makes to Baghdad central facility and also Article Five. What
we're interested in particularly is how the version of the law that came out there .... and
that you were using generally .... was reached in the staffing process.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. That would've been discussions between us with the JAG office
and, yon know, Colonel WWTcn with, you know the DSSA as well.
On further thonght while commenting on this draft record of interview by Major
O'Kane, the US interpretation of Articlc V originated from discussions when the
detention FRAGO was being put together in August 03.
LTCOl, Abbott: Were all of yon at the SJA office, you know ." .. (indistinct) .....
involved in settling that view of Article Five or the-.. how did it come about - the view
of what Article Five and its meaning actually ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'.Kane: I'm just trying to think back as to whether or not we had any - well, we
always discussed things -- we discuss things like - well, we must've had .- must've had
discnssion about it, you know how it related to the letter an.d amendments included by-
tlu'ough Major K in Operations, as well, that paIiicular draft, and Colonel \/hnen
contributed and cleared through CO Detcntion Ops .. - -
CDRE Smith: That's a pretty intuitive process, or ......
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 48

Tape 2 of3
MAJ O'Kane: It was how we got through the workload.
LTCOL Ahbo(i: But did a draft get passed out or .... (indistinct) .....
MfAJ O'Kane: Yes, the draft got passed around.
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, went up to CENTCOM or anything anywhere.
MAJ O'Kane: No, not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of, sir, it didn't go up. It
was inside - it was produced inside the OSJA office.
L TCOL AbboH: And do you know whether" " "
MAJ O'K,me: Whether or not Brigadier Karpinski sent it up, I don't know but I doubt
it.
LTCOL Abbott: Do you know what resources were relied upon - their legal
resources - to show what had actually should be ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kmnc: We had commentary - lCRC commentary on the Geneva Convention
and copies ofthe Geneva Conventions themselves.
LTCOL AbboH: And in the drafts here, which are the ones unsigned and done by you
in November" " "
111AJ O'Kane: Yeah, that went into the Commander 800"' MP Brigade -"-
L TCOL Abbott: Yeah, do you want to tell us- " "
MAS O'Kane: aild cleared by the UK DSJA""-
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, tell us how these were fonnniated, were they views coilegially
reached, or where they views that callie from anywhere in particular -- about Article
Five?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. That would've been - that would be something we discussed
coming up with the draft - including summaries going up to higher officers in the
headquarters or tell whether it was discussed in draft by the SJA - and the DSJA
..... (tape IUns out) .....
End of side Olle, tape (vvo
Side two, tape two
L TCOL Abbott: Tape recommencing.
Tape 2 of3
SECRET
Mr .Pezwllo: George, I think we'll ask for 3110thor 10 minutes of your time.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, sure.
Mr PezwHo: What I'd like to do is close out this discussion then ask - and we'll go to
some questions about intenogation and policy.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Just on Article Five .. - -
Mr PezzulIo: Sure.
MAJ 0 'Kane: - r remember now that - in fact, I did have a discussion with
Colonel Wan'cn - yeal1, not only with the DSJA, Colonel Warred, about whether we
could rely 011 that - the exclusion of the lCRe and he was comfortable - - ..
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, for the exclusion .....
MAJ O'Kane: Of the JCRC visit - - ..
Mr l'ezzulIo: Okay.
MAJ O'I(ane: .... - to interview certain detainees for, you lmow, a limited time
'cause that's what Article Five says.
lYIr Pezzullo: Sure.
Mr Smith: How do you - sorry, how do you understand ATticlc Five with - ....
1\1AJ 0 'Kane: For reasons of imperative military security-- sorry, no, it's not Article
Five, it's another Article in the Geneva Convention .. Four - which covers it.
LTCOL Abbott: Article 143.
Mid O'Kane: 143, that's it ... 143 actualJy specially provides for the discretion of
IeRC access for reasons of imperative military secmity-
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, you had a conversation with Wan'en
MAJ O'Kane: Ahout Five mld about 143.
Mr Pezzullo: But in terms of 143, about excluding them in an active seIlse ..
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeall. Yes.
Mr PezzulIo: So, did Warren want to, or not want to achieve that cnd?
o 'Kane-07 106/2004
,--- --- _ .... __ ....... _ ...... _ .. _-
50 Tape 2 of 3
SEq<'ET
(
MAJ O'Kane: He was comfortable with that interpretation,
Ml' Pezzullo: That they could be excluded?
Mid O'Kanc: Ye,lh, they could be excluded,
Note: From major O'Kaue - that is individual access could be excluded for a limited
period of time]
LTCOL Abbott: And what Article Five, what did -- had your chat with Colonel
Wanenabout Article Five,
!VIAJ O'Kane: Yeah, Okay, The- we involved the people that were involved in
detention, we read and we discussed the content of it - and a lot of the DSJA, as well --
about what that actually meant, meaning that they don't gain the rights, privileges, you
know that they would get if tllCY were not a threat to the security of the State, but that
has to be reinstated at the earliest date where it's consistent with the security of State or
Occupying Power.
iVir Pezzullo: Can we close out maybe, I don't !mow, 10 more minutes if you can
accommodate that?
MAJ O'Kallc: Fine, I'm here until you're ready to fini.sh - --
Mr Pezzullo: No, no, the" I wouldn't mind chopping it, only - " "
MAJ O'Kallc: But J haven't answered these questions '" - -
Mr Pezzullo: Sorry, Indeed, yeah,
MAJ O'I(ane: 'Cause you asked the question about the presentation, This is"- the
background to it was that we needed to try and work with the ICRC to sort of facilitate a
better visit then, YOll ]mow, better than the previous one [md they were most happy with
the way that it went. What th8.t thell meant was that we had to then still meet and co"
ordinate with the detention filcility for the next ICRC inspection so that when they came
along this time we were going' to roll out the red carpet for them - " -
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, which hap]lened in January,
MAJ O'Kane: Which is what happened in JamlflTY,
CDRE Smith: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: Now, what we had is - now hearing in mind that it's a, you know,
busy, busy place, they're (Abu Ghraib) probably - you know, probahly undermanned"
O'Kane-07/06/2004 51
; ; 5 ~ K I ~ . I
Tape 2 of3
the ICRC visit they just see as a necessaIY evil, all embuggerance they've got to now try
and accommodate, so you needed someone (0 get them - drive them to the thing and to
make sure that the inspection works this time and it doesn't, you know - like, they don't
havethedifficultythattheYTlliTinto last time.
L TCOL Abbott: Or the dlli1ger ofbeing shot.
MAJ O'Kane: Well, yeah, their security and so forth. But basically the US An11y was
a sort of - so they were - they were co-operative with this sort of approach, but they
were keen to have a - they saw that, you lmow, there was someone who was obviously
there dw'ing the early visit and they were keen to - I mean, not to criticise, if I can use
that term, but the need to visit.
J ~ TCOL Abbott: So, in actually agreeing that approach with the ICRC lli1d they were
very happy with it, of course?
MAJ O'Kalle: Yes, of course.
LTCOL Abbott: .. (indistinct)" ...
MAJ O'Kane: They didn't - it wasn't a question that they didn't like the visit, but we
were trying to have a better visit. Once they got in the gate a11d on straight through our
co-ordination, they then had fulllli1d fi'ee access to where they wlli1ted to go - - -
CDRE Smith: And your recall is that they had satisfaction with the aITangement that
you came to?
MAJ O'Kane: They loved it.
CDRE Smith: They loved it? Okay.
MAJ O'Kane: They loved it. They said, you know, "That was great" and, "Can we
do the same things with the HVD visit?"
Mr Pezzullo: In terms of your own personal perf0I111anCe, it sounds like you were
pretty central to mediating what was potentially a difficult relationship.
MAJ O'Kalle: Ifwe had a problem - we had to work it out lli1d overcome the obstacle
with them - and the only thing I could personally contribute to was to make ita better
visit and I couldn't help them with, like, blankets and, you know, rations and all that.
Mr Pezzullo: Probably fair to say that a bit of good Aussie cham1 worked a treat.
1\1AJ O'Kane: You Imow, yeah, exactly. I think of - they (the US AD11Y) were keen
to have an Australilli1 uniform instead of a US Army uniformlli1d I think that, you know,
there was tension there and they were happy to have it. Now, it didn't all go sort of
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 52
,c'SitclzEtS'i) ::;8 Ir
Tape 2 of3
smoothly and I'll step you through that. So, as a means of facilitating the visit and he's
there when I - you know, when that happened and he said let's use their JAG officers to
set up a pre-inspection meeting - now, this is just a co-ordination meeting to ensure that
we knew they were comingin two days time, "Have we got everythinginplacc? Have
we got the front guard warned out, with an escort for them to bring them to their
accommodation, is their life SUppOlt (ie water) squared away." - -
Mr Pezzullo: That's probably in the second - yeah.
MAJ O'Kalle: Do we have water set up for them? You know, where are we going to
house them? Who's going to escort them down to where they want to go, you know, all
these things put in place but they just don't happen when they tum up; they've got to be
arranged in advance. So, our - now, at the same time it was actually at the suggestion of
the 800 MP Liaison Officer at the Headquarters at CJTF 7 - said, "Why don't you give
the -like, when we go out for the pre visit why don't you give us the provisions on what
the Geneva Connection say, that's what it was.
Mr Pezmllo: And that's the PowerPoint?
MAJ O'Kane: That's the PowerPoint presentation.
Mr Pezwllo: Right.
M,. Smith: ..... (indistinct) .....
lI1AJ O'Kane: It was done through that. But that's a basic PowerPoint presentation
up - not as the press alleges to teach them how to avoid their obligations, but just to
remind them about what the Geneva Convention says about PW and detainee treatment
and to distinguish the difference between the two.
1\11( Pezzullo: George, you can rest assured our team has no - takes no guidance out of
the media.
MAJ 0 'Kane: Yeah.
Mr Pezm!lo: What I might do, I've got both - for personal reason but, more
importantly, I've got discussions I've got to have with the CDF.
1I1AJ O'Kane: Sure. Okay.
Mr Pezzullo: Mike ..... (indistinct) ..... if George is willing to be available, there's a bit
on intelTogation that I tl1ink we oUght to go through.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
0' Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape 2 of3
CDRE Smith: I'm just inclined to give it another five minutes and do five minutes on
George coming back home now.
MAJ O'Kane: If Ijus(hit the high points andthelowpoints.ofthat inspecti.on;- as
well.
Mr Pezzullo: Well, hang on. What I wouldn't mind --I've got a slightly different view
and I'll by to test this out with George. I thinlc that there's - in tem1S of performance in
the mind of the Minister in terms of advice, I thinl( that there's probably separate
discussion that I'd like to think about now having, which is about not what George
O'Kane did, because I've got to say, ! mean, this is sounding pretty much like a
straightforward account - - -
MAJ O'Kane: A straightforward, that's it, account - - -
Ml' Pezzullo: Very straightforward account and, indeed - - -
MAJ O'Kanc: . ""(indistinct),, ".
1111' PezZllIllo: - - - indeed a helpful- a selies of - well, a series of helpful interventions
by you to assist a potentially difficult situations.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, and can be corroborated by, you know, the 800
th
MP LNO and
the Baghdad ICRC representative - - -
Ml' Pezzu[lio: I've got no reason to doubt you, George, so - - -
MAJ O'Kane: - - - that I'm aware of.
Mr Pezzuilo: - - - please understand that. You know this is a neutral, factual account
that you're giving us. There was a set of questions that Mike and I kicked around in
terms of - I'm just intrigued by this - particularly 'cause Senator Brown is arching up
about so-called interrogation rules of engagement and there's a question about policy it
sits behind -I n1ight leave you in Commodore Smith's very capable hands on that.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
Mr Pez:wUo: What I would actually like to do - and it's going to be a time
embuggerance - not tomorrow necessarily but in the next 48 hours - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Sure. Wl1enever.
Mr PezzuHo: - - - after I've reviewed this stack I've had here .- the mix ups OJ -- I
actually wouldn't mind" - -
MAJ O'Kane: There's a lot ofinfonnation the further you get into this.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape20f3
My Pezzullo: There certainly is - and it's all tallying up nicely.
There's one mistake [made inoneoftheearlier Min Reps;tthought r
went there four times - - -
Mr Pezzullo: And indeed it was.
[vIAJ O'K{al1e: I went on five. I've flagged that - flagged that - - -
Mr Pezzullo: I've seen that ..... (indistinct) ..... seen that issue.
MAJ O'Kalle: It's only because I got mixed up -like, I can't think back - you know, I
went out - that IeRe meetings - I got mixed up between my visit for this - the pre-
section bliefwith - when I went out there for input on the ICRC proposal - - -
IVIr Pezzullo: And if that's still in error on the ministerial record, we'll just clean that
up as part of our report.
MAJ O'Kalle: Yeah. Yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhat I'd like to do is actually close out on interrogation and we'll get a
back blief from Mike about that issue. I would like to re-meet for this reason - and this
is - relates to where were started the whole discussion.
MAJ O'JI(alle: Yeah.
M!r Pezzullo: What you've really given us is a very patient account of what George
O'Kane did as part of his conventional business activity over there - you lmow, he's got
a whole bunch of stuff and this is just one stream of work.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
Mr PezzuIlo: What I really want to then sit down and talk with you about in a separate
meeting is information flows.
MAJ O'JI(al1e: Okay.
I\1r Pezzullo: Not only in terms of what happens with your post deployment report, you
lodge it, it goes into TeDs - goes into 633 - but also as this stuffs happening I'm aware
of - and think we've got - or most of these weekly ballpoint things that you do- I really
just want to tease out how those information flows were set up, light.
MAJ O'Kanc: Yeah. Sure.
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of3
Mr Pezzuilo; So, what we've dealt with in this interview - discussion - and you -- and
I really do appreciate how patient you've been stepping us through it - - -
MAJO'Kane:-Noproblem.
1111' Pezzullo: - - - is a very nice detailed account, which has given me a lot of context
about working conditions and how you went about your daily work. I'd like to set up
another meeting with a slight tweak on the questions that I want to play around with but
just to warn you out, they'll be more about your interaction with the Australian system.
MAJ O'Kame: Sure. Okay.
Mr Pezzullo: What you've really dealt with here is your interaction with the ICRC/US
interface, right. Now, I want a separate meeting which I do not want to msh, I want to
release you for home reasons - so if you're willing to be available for that - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Just give me some advance notice, I'll be available when you want.
Mr Pezzullo: Probably Wednesday shall I say.
111AJ O'Kane: There's just a couple of points I just want to raise which we have not
covered -
Mr Pezzullo: At least close them out, yeah. Yeah, close them out.
MAJ 0' Kane: When I said they loved it, they loved the processes, they loved, you
IGlow, what we put on for them - 'cause we used to have a -like a morning and evening
brief with them - - -
Mr lPezwHo: Sure.
IViAJ O'Kane: - - - a co-ordination meeting to ensure that (a) everything was in line to
- 'cause they'd nominate where they want to go the next day, so we'd warn out
compound cOlmnanders and they'd go, "Oh, look, can we push that back half an hour,
we're still in the middle of breakfast at that stage" but, you know, co-ordinate those SOli
of issues and make sure their guides were ready, In fact, the guys went down there for
the first day or two, then they gave up and they were just on call, "Let me in the
compound" - like the QRF would be warned out where they were, so they could
respond if necessary - - -
M[r Pezzullo: Q - oh the Quick Reaction - yeah ...... (indistinct), ....
MAJ O'Kane: Quick Reaction Force - 'cause there's a real threat in those compounds
and so forth, for example the MPs did a search of part of the compound during the ICRC
inspection and seized a bunch of shanks, whole box of them, but they'd collected them
on one search OIl one afternoon.
O'Kanc-07/06/2004 Tape2of3
iVir PezzuLlo: Yeah. So, you don't want an accidental you Imow - --
MAJ .. H'.Kane: Well the lCRewill say you Imow,we're responsible for our own
security, but you can imagine the disaster if they killed an ICRC delegate dUling the
inspection of a US detention facility.
Mlr Pezzullo: I can imagine, yeah. I can imagine.
MrAJ O'Kane: But fortunately they said, you know, we - we'll get coordinated with
you and we take all those steps to ensure that it goes as safely as it can go - - -
Mr Pez,m!lo: Yeah. But you're saying that they love all these arrangements.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. The one area they didn't - that we had words about - not an
argument, we had words about -- that was the exclusion of nine of the detainees
undergoing interTogation in cell block lAo
Mr Pezzullo: Cell block IA. SOlTY, just say that again - exclusion of what?
IIIlAJ O'Kane: Exclusion of tile reRC interviewing nine persons - - -
Mr PezzuHo: I'm with you.
MAJ O'Kame: There's roughly, I think, about 40 detainees in cell blocks IA and lB.
1 A and I B just refer to the top and bottom level of this cell block - - -
IIi!:i' Pezzullo: W11ich has now becoming notOliollS.
MAJ O'Kane: Notorious, yeah, yeah.
Mi' Pezzullo: Yeah. Yeah. But what was the argument about at the time?
MAJ O'Kane: The argument was -- was that we - that the US Army was not going to
give them access originally to 12, but then they cut it down to nine - --
[Note: From Major O'Kane that at the coord briefing the ICRe were not going to get
access to the whole cell block, but this was negotiated down to 12 individuals and then 9
persons. ]
Mr l'ezztEllo: Persons.
MAJ O'Kane: - - .. persons that were undergoing active intelTogation - - -
1l1r PezzuHo: You mean at the time?
_ .. _----_.
O'Kane-07/06/2004
MAJ O'f:(ane: At the time of the [CRC visit.
111r I?euutlo: L, January.
MAJ O'K:me: In January. And the Commanding Officer of the MI Brigade basically
asked me to brief it and he stepped in during the course of - in fact, he was the one that
asked me - - -
fiEr Pezzullo: Sorry, the Commander of the Brigade, did you say?
MAJ O'Kmae: Yeah, the Military Intelligence Brigade.
MlrPezzullo: Who's a Brigadier General?
MAJ O'Kanc: That- he's actually a full Colonel.
Mr Pezzullo; Colonel.
!VJAJ O'Kane: Shonld be a Brigadier General, but a full Colonel.
Mr Pez:wHo: Right.
MAJ O'Kane: And - 'cause Oliginally I wasn't going to stay at Abu Ghraib but he
asked - he sort of asked me to stay out there to facilitate then inspection.
Mr Pezzullo: \Vhile this is going on.
MAJ O'Kalle: \Vhile this is going on. Like, he asked me I trunk, you lmow, a few
days beforehand, you lmow, "Can you" - 'cause I wasn't very interested in staying out
there.
M[r Pezzullo; You had other s(uffto do though, didn't you?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. It's a - you know, it's a revolting place and, you lmow, it's
under regular attack - not that Victory is not, but when you're out there - - -
I'Ilr Pezzullo: Understood. Understood.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. So, the IC -- the point is the JCRC weren't really happy about
that, but what they ai;'Tced - - -
Mr Pezzullo: About the exclusion?
MAJ O'Kane: About that exclusion. See, this is - they'll come in going we require
access to everywhere. They den't refer to that there is an exemption in Geneva IV - - -
- - - - . ~ ~ ~ : - - - - - - -
0' Kan e-07 /06/2004 Tape 2 of3
i
Mr Pezzullo: Understood.
MAJ O'Kane: They've got their own agenda.
" MrPez:nIIlo: So, they won't go everywhere. This Colonel says, "No, you cau't" - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, he said "We're relying on this Article to - you're not seeing this
group of people. We will give you the names of who you cau'! - who we're preventing
you from seeing on this inspection so that you cau follow them up on your next visit,
and if we still won't give you access, we'll give you a letter from the GC". - --
Mr Pezzullo: We're relying on 143?
MAJ O'Kane: On 143 -- give you the names of the persons that you won't be
permitted to see - explained why - that they're undergoing active interrogation and if
you break someone down, or persuade them to give up information you don't need
them drawing stTength ti-om au ICRC visit.
CDRE Smith: So, what phraseology did he use?
MAJ O'Kmue: Okay. They'll be prevented from interviewing nine persons in cell
block I Aaud I B in the hard cells but they've got access to everyone else at the other
locations - - -
Mr Pezzullo: Understood. SOI1)', yeah, I Lmderstaud that, George. But you say that he
explains the rationale, what, to you or to the - - -
MAJ O'E(alllie: No, to the ICRC and - - -
Mr Pez;mllo: And he uses - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Like to - yeah, does in discussions with me, but also in discussion with
the ICRC.
Mr Pezzullo: And what was his rationale - "You can't go and talk to them?" Why?
J\1AJ O'Kane: 'Cause they're undergoing active interrogation
Mr Pezmllo: Okay. And I'm an ICRC person, I say, "Yeah, so what? I want to see
them." What does he say then?
MAJ O'Kane: Well, you know we won't be giving you access because of imperative
military necessity in the Geneva Convention IV Artcile 143 - - -
J\1r Pezzullo: Which is in 143 tJigger (7)
0'Kaue-07/06/2004 59 Tape 2 of3
SECRET
;LJ ~ ' ~ ~ ~ Q(; ' . ~ " " " _ , , , _ ' .. , _ ~
(
MAJ O'Kane: Which is the 143 trigger "We're not going to give you access on this
occasion, but we'll give you the names of those people who you are prevented ii-om
interviewing - .. ,.
My Pezzullo: Do you lmow the names?
MAJ O'Kane: - '" '" so you can follow them up later on - - '"
Ml' Pezzullo: Follow them up,
1\1AJ' O'Kane: ,. - '" and you'll have the names and you can follow them np on your
next interview." So, they're not trying to, you know prevent complete access" .. -
)V[r Pezzullo: Sorry, diel I hear words to the effect of "When you're trying to break
someone down, I don't want that to be viewed" or - ,,, -
[\i[AJ' Yes, that is what I said but there are other ways of describing it.
Mr Pezzullo: - - - is that what I heard?
MAJ O'Knl1c: No, Yeah, that's - that was the rationale behind it. I don't think he used
those words ......
Mr Pezzullo: To these people I wouldn't have thought., "
MAJ O'Kane: No he did not use those words, but he was not going to have
interrogations intenupted by the rCRC he obviously understands that, they were
entitled to interview them in due course, Onc of the French guys, I mean, he was not
pm"ticularly thrilled by this approach ......
J\11' Pezzullo: 'They're suspicious - French. No, I'm joking,
MAJ ..... (indistinct) ... "
Mr Pezzullo: So, you're actually in a bit of a tussle here, are you?
lVIAJ O'Kane: I'm bit a little bit of a tussle.
[Note: [rom M,Uor 0'Kan0 - I mn fairly sure Colonel Waneninte['venec1 at this point
mId a compromise was reached.]
Ml' Pezzullo: Yeah,
MAJ O'Kane: But in the end they were happy with the fact that they"" yeah, we were
- they weren't being prevented from "'" you IUlow, from interviewing their choice of
5000 other people" - '"
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 60 Tape 2 of3
..
Yir Pezzullo: Understood, yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: - .... people that they weren't getting access to on
........... :, .c
occasion.
Mr Pezzullo: On?
MAJ O'Kane: On that occasion.
Mr Pezzullo: Yeah. Okay. But there was a .. an opportunity afforded them ......
MAJ O'Kalle: Opportunity, yeah.
Mr Pezzullo: - - - "Here's a name - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah, "Here's a name. You take his name away" - - -
Mr Pezzullo: "You can talk to him later."
MAJ O'Kane: "Next time they'll be out of interrogation and you can speak to them
then.
CDRE Smith: Is this the first time that you've gone through that part of the tale or
..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kane: I believe so.
CDRE Smith: Several times.
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
CDRE Smith: Yeah, light. Okay. I must fe-read my submissions.
MAJ O'Kane: This is the first time I've gone through this step by step - ....
Mr Pezzullo: It's been fantastic. I really appreciate it.
--------.. _J
O'Kane-07/06/2004 61 Tape 2 of 3
SEi1lRBl' r'''',
1 :".;.0' ,i.'>7> '\0-: .... u.<,<o,.
LTCOL Abbott: Tape resumed at 5.42.
Ms Patterson: The interesting thing is also because our obligations in Australian are
different to the US -- what sort of effect that would have on the work you were doing in
the Coalition - - -

0' Kane-07 106/2004
Tape 2 of 3
(
MAJ O'Kalle: Okay. TIle difference is that the US isn't a signatory to additional
protocol one and two, but we should really have a very similar understanding of the
Articles of the Geneva Convention one to four ..... (indistinct)" ... embellish- well,
" ,
Ms Patterson: " ... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'l{ane: Probably the most starkest difference I saw - but then again maybe it
wasn't different - was in targeting, for example. They were targeting empty buildings
that were usually used for attacks. That's the Australian - that's not probably the
Australian way of - and my understanding is that it's not necessarily the Australian way
of war fighting, but they (the US) were keen to get out there and do that sort of thing.
Ms Pattersoll: Yeah. But the, you know" sort ofbacle on the sort of detainee things,
you know, sort of, gave you this sort of reminder" " -
MAJ O'Kane: When J was told" " "
Ms Patterson: Yeah, when you sort of gave this reminder of the Geneva Convention,
'cause I've seen the slides" - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah. They're very basic - - -
Ms Patterson: And you're stepping through - that's right -""
MAJ O'Kame: They're very basic slides to revise the Geneva Convention obligations -
Ms Patterson: - - - stepping through what were" " "
MAJ O'Kane: Revising what the obligations are. So, there was nothing - it was -
that's all it was. It was just a re-faJ11iliarisation that, you know, "You guys are treating
the detainees this way because of this Geneva convention obligation which your
Govenunent has signed up to.
M8 Patterson: Yeah. And what was their response to that? Was it sort of just
received and that's it, or was there any discussion or ............. ?
MAJ O'Kane: To that Geneva Convention obligation? No, I don't recall any
discussion - they were just on receive - it wasn't meant to be a discussion, it was just
meant to be - 'cause once again this was for a revision of what the Geneva Convention
said - there was only like a 10 minute spiel" covers some of the areas I've covered in
that previous JCRC report. It was just a reminder of what their obligations are, 'cause a
lot of them are very general provisions not necessarily precise or, you know, descriptive;
they're just general comments, you k.now.
o 'Kane-07 10612004 Tape 2 of3
Ms PattersOll: Yeah. The other issue, you lmow, as l\1ike said before he left isjust the
interrogation policy.
MIAJ0'Kal1e: Yeah,-'
Mrs Patterson: If you could just give us a bit of an idea of what your involvement was
- your lmowledge of that, and also, you lmow, if you've got any lmowledge of how to
implement it, you Imow.
MAJ O'Kalle: Yeah. Okay. Right. I was only involved - well, this - there's two
angles to this. The first was involving a celiain meeting - there was a written advice
that was subsequently produced in regard - relation to interrogation techniques. That
was my visit on 27'11 August - and I'll cover the next - just the other angle is that we - I
was also involved with, we went to a number of like interrogation or Intelligence
evidence working groups. This was a - that didn't have anything to do with
interrogation techniques - that later one. These working groups were more involved
with - they were really the drive behind both - the British DSJA.
What we had were, you lmow, hundreds of people in detention every week, they were
being processed through Military Intelligence with no regard being had to the evidence
that was - or, you know, except for Intelligence purposes for the evidence comiilg from
intelTogation sessions. His view was that, "Well, if these people, you know, that are
blowing up Iraqi civilians and Coalition soldiers and US soldiers on a daily - if they're
held to be accountable, well, then we need to get the evidence that's coming out as a
result of the Intelligence or interrogation process and capture that in a legal sense for
nllther prosecution down the track. So, that - what that was - and this had not been
done up until this point in time - -
Ms Patterson: Yeah.
MAJ O'Kalle: What we were trying to synchronise was both the
!ntelligence/intelTOgation process, so that evidence would be - this evidence could
actually be captured for prosecution of them further down the tracle So, it didn't
actually talk about - nothing to do with techniques, it was more a process of trying to
make sure we don't lose the evidence, otherwise, you know, people are responsible for
bombings - you know, killing scores of people, but eventually - we could see further
down the track eventually, you lmow, rather than their being held accountable for these
killings they are going to be held over and you can't hold people indefinitely - - -
Ms Patterson: No.
MAJ O'Kane: But what you can do you, you can go for, you know, 20 years under
Iraqi law - whatever, you know, the crimes that have been conunitted there, you know,
daily. So that was a - that's what my reference to those two working groups were about
- nothing to do With, you know interrogation techniques, rather the mechanics of, you
know evidence collection, how to get Shlff organised, you know, capturing evidence for
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 Tape 2 of 3
prosecution in Iraqi COUTts, you know, further down the track. But at the same time, the
Iraqi courts aTe only just getting up again, don't do. well and have a way to. go.. But
gaing back to. the first ane - my invalvement was actually interrogation techniques. A
dncwnentcameinta theafficcinthat that Iastweek afAugustandwhat it didwasit was
seeking JAG cleaT3.nce for certain interrogation techniques to be used against a
particulaT HVT that they had in detention - yau know they were seeking comment.
Nail', I can't - I knaw this was a dacument and I can't remember what it actually said,
but there was nathing cantraversial in it. It was a standard sort af interrogatian repart
for an individual. But as a result oftha!, we organised- so., there's myself and the DSJA
- organised to go and have I had to clear that through Air Commodore Bentley --
first af all through then through Air Cammadare Bentley to. go. and - to.
go. and do this caurse of ac/',,"J!f15ecause Australians, you knaw, 'cause yau're invalved
interrogation yau need to get clearance fram higher authority to. do that. So, Air
Commodore Bentley granted me that, providing I was anly advising in relatian to.
individuals and not interrogation for the whole theatre.
Now, when _. so, we went out with the DSJA, met the Interragatian Company
Cammander and W=ant Officer. Now, what it actually turned aut to be, they weren't
really after - they weren't after the clearance, at all; what they were after - they were
under investigation for an incident in Afghanistan and they were seeking top caver -
like above legal tap caver - it cauld be - that cauld be general afficer tap caver to.
commence interrogation of this pmicular individual, thaugh I dan't think I was even
tald that. Whether ar nat they changed that, bnt that's in the company af my British
Lieutenant Calonel. I don't know, but we had a - yau knaw, a half haur - or 20 minute
to half hour chat and - very pleasant chat - but it was really they wanted something in
writing to give them cover to. go. ahead with tlleir interrogation techniques an this fellow.
]Vb Smith: It was specifically about that one ..... (indistinct) .....
MA.! O'Kane: That's right, that one individual, that's right.
1\11" Smith: AJ1d you were nat involved in giving any general advice on intenagation
techniques?
MAJ O'Kane: Yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: Ijllst have to. check what's in that letter.
MAJ O'Kane: Have yau got the letter i'am the DJSA as the signatary referTing to. the
meeting, as well. That was that letter of 27th or 28
th
August and I've given that up, but
it'll be in the papers somewhere. What it said was that -. there you go. - interrogation
techniques propased generally or substantially comply with the Geneva Convention.
That is because when I campared what they were daing against the US Anny
interrogation manual wben I loaked at it back at the Headquarters, just like the
Australian manual, it didn't have, like, time peri ads, just had general techniques that
O'Kane-07106/2004 Tape 2 of3
they can use- sleep deprivation, that's an example - just b>ives yO\l a description of a
technique.
(irrelevant cenversation)-
MAJ O'Kane: The reason why I used that word, you lmow, "substantially" -
substantially complied was because the intelTogation manual wasn't specific enough to
have the - from my reading at the time, wasn't specific enough to actually have
adequate safeguards in place that could be open to abuse. Now, I've given a guarded -
roughly guarded reply because the document that they're relying on didn't have enough
detail in it in respect of time limits. Sleep deprivation probably isn't a good example of
- they did allow four hours for every twenty four There were other - there
might've been, youKnow,a;etarYl11a.nipulation somcthing like that - it wasn't specific
enough and like I made the comment to, like I made to the CDP - anything can become
-- maybe torture eventually and if you haven't got those sOli of safeguards in place, well,
they're going to say it's open to interpretation generally. So it's not wateliight, doesn't
comply it was like, "I can't. I've got no guarantee that that can't be exploited."
M, Smith: So, what was your wording that you used?
MAJ O'Kane: Substantially completed but that's - it wasn't because of human
pyramids down there, because they didn't have, like, time limits on certain procedures
which eventually - whether it be sitting in a chair or standing on one foot, eventually
these could become inhumane and ..... (tape lUIlS out) .....
End of tape tvI'D
Tape three
LTCOL Abbott: Tape three, starting recording. George, I just ask you the question,
were you clear in your own mind as to what was the relevant standard of your
treatment?
MAJ O'Kane: Yes, yes, sir, I was. I was very clear as to what constitutes assault and,
therefore, straight over the line of what is essentially a psychological discomfort line to
what actually becomes what I would call abuse and I can take that fuliher. But what I
want to say in the context - what I say, in the context of that particular letter, it was
si gned by the DSJA, a British Lieutenant Colonel. TIle day after that visit I left to go
down to Babylon for the handover fi'om 1
st
Mruine Expeditionary Force to the Polish
Divisional Headquarters and each staff branch had to send an officer down to the
transfer of authority to ensure that you, you know, when the transfer took place, it went
as smoothly as it could go, 'cause I was the Coalition officer in the branch, that was my
- that was my job to go to.
0' Kan e-07 /06/2004 Tape 2 of3
But what that meant was that is that I couldn't follow - I couldn't confirm that that they
went ahead with that letter or that it went out to anyone, because I drafted it, left it with
the DSJ A, I then went down to Babylon for a week. When I came back I was conscious
that we were providing interim-advice to the Interrogati bf! Cofifpanyllefbfetlieygoftbis
.- any further advice - higher and higher up the chain to gain top cover and I remember
asking the DSJA whether or not that letter was sent and I think he said I think it did, but
he wasn't sure. And because you lmow, we'd passed and, you lmow, 100 other things
had happened, you know, that was his response and I just left it at that. So, I never got
confirmation as to whether or not that letter went or not, other than he thinks he did, but
that also .. yes, it did .. that was I think it did get sent but I'm not sure.
And in any event, what happened is I think two weeks after that Major General Miller
came out Ii-Oln Guantanamo Bay - that would've been either - that was in September
and that's when interrogation became a NOFORN issue. Major Genera] Miller came out
from Guantanamo Bay to review all the interrogation practices and my understanding is
that they weren't getting the product that they were seeking and, therefore, he came out
to give specific guidance to his staff as to how they would conduct those interTOgations
and it became - it's interrogation Rules of Engagement and all that sort of business all
became a no foreign issue and therefore that was the end of my involvement or
attending any meeting. It was general advice to ensure that they could proceed pending
top cover anyway, while seeking the highest cover. That was then surpassed very
quickly by Major General Miller's arrival and role there,
LTCOL Abbott: Just one question when you're talking about when you had to look at
the interTogation matter, or some aspect of it, it was looking at the US manual- --
MAJ O'Karue: That's right, yeah.
LTCOL Abbott: .... - and the US system, but not giving - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Not giving Australian advice.
LTCOL Abbott: .... - but not giving a Coalition interpretation but a US interpretation
given to an Australian officer who had the ability to do that.
MAJ O'Kane: That is correct, sir. That is concct. But see, I never had a hard copy, I
had to get on to the SIPRNET to get it up for me and I would view, you know, over
somcone's shoulder - I would view the screen at the relevant paragraphs you know,
seven pages of the interrogation manual. That's straight into, like their technique
paragraphs 'cause there was no time - there may've been some time limits on some of
them but because there wasn't enough detail on all of them to put in control measures to
ensure that it didn't creep into abuse, you know, I was prepared to draft a reply to
support total compliance but once I viewed the manual, potentially the ability to exploit
those techniques, I 41en gave guarded advice.
----"--. -.-:::-:-c;::-:-----
o 'Kane-07 106/2004 67
,SECRET ..
I.ts: ..
Tape 3 of3
;
J:,", "
LTCOL Abbott: Now, with respect to Aush'alia's own approach, were you aware of
resources that you could draw on to determine what Australia's approach is to
interrogation standards and doctrine? - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, sir. I was relying on a malier that I'd been involved in researching,
pretty sure actually earlier that year, and I was relying on my knowledge and experience
fyom Australian interrogation processes fwm that other matter that I was involved in.
L TCOL Abbott: But you had a knowledge of the Australian standard iiorn yOUT
professional practice?
MAJ O'Kane: That is correct.
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah, that's fine. Okay. Now, we're ..... (indistinct) ..... at that
stage so that closed out your knowledge of that one.
MAJ O'Kane: Yes. Yes.
L'fCOL AlDbott: Just back in - --
!\1AJ O'Kane: I should mention that I did have - I did put in my report that I'd had
inter-office discussion about interrogation matters and part of my US colleague's review
of, you lmow, interrogation procedures - and once again, you know, we did discuss the
issue of, you lmow, obviously, you know, treatment and so forth - what was tortllie -
just the general sort of office discussion that was reflected in that letter.
LTCOL Abbott: Where do you see inhumane treatment being ..... (indistinct) .....
MAJ O'Kaue: Sir, I rely on ceItain cases that I viewed both in Emopean courts of
Human Rights, where they were primarily civil primacy environment cases which I'd
researched under the topic of humane - inhumane treatment from the ICTY judgements
and performance. Now, when you look at those cases - and primarily I've - plimarily,
you lmow distinguished crime scene cases such as the - you lmow different to the armed
conflict sort. of environment, you lmow, it - interpretation of those courts and, you
lmow, treatment really does cover things like starvation of people, concentration camp
type incidents, no wan11 clothing through winter, summary execution, rape, you lmow,
honible - it's called assaults, torture - those sorts of issues.
LTCOL Abbott: Fine. Now, when you - they went off out through the command to -
MAJ O'Kane: Well, I don't Imow.
LTCOL Abbott: Absolutely. Did the guy that has been featured in the US Armed
Services Committee evidence - did that ever come to the office for checking? Or was it
done locally, down in the pIison?
O'Kane-07/06/2004 Tape 3 of3
(Mobile 'phone ringing)
..... (Tape tWlled off) .....
li1AJ 0 ' K ~ m e : ..... Australian feelings at the time, no.
Mr Swith: Tape resuming. Now, okay
LTCOL Abbott: Now, okay. So, there was, yeah, that document that's been featured
in the US Senate. Did that come up to the office, at all?
MAJ O'Kalle: Sir, I don't know. Never saw it. Still not - I've still not seen it. I
know that - I think it was put up before by Senator Brown in Senate Estimates, but, no,
I've never seen that document.
LTC OIL Abbott: It was entitled "Interrogation."
Mr Smith: Rules of engagement.
LTCOL Abbott: Thanlc you.
MAJ O'Kanc: No, I've never seen that - --
LTCOIL Abbott: 111ank you, very much. Now, working back in the office, we were
talking before about Article Five. I think you've used your resources in the office to
develop the interpretation that was done collegially, you're not aware of necessarily
what happened to the drafts that went up, there were some amendments done, but
essentially it was a common view, was it, just to have it interpreted between everyone in
the office?
MAJ O'Kane: It was - yeah, definite - no one had any violeut disagreement about the
interpretation, everyone was, you know, probably happy with the emphasis that was
placed on an ambiguous sort of paragraph and that's fine, that's okay, but we did not
spend much time on it due to the other workload and it was decided on fairly quickly.
LTCOl" Abbott: And who keyed the cut of it in as to what - - -
MAJ O'Kane: The ICRC report?
LTCOL Abbott: No. Yeah, to what Aliicle Five should be.
MAJ O'Kalile: In these documents here?
0' Kane-07/06/2004 Tape 3 of 3
LTCOL Abbott: Yeah.
MAJ O'Kane: That would be myself. I would've worked every draft to accommodate
revisions made by my.colle',gues and a cQvenl1g.MimlteJor the DSJA to send up the
chain of C0T111nancl.
LTCOL Abbott: Righteo. Now, inevitably you got to come back home - - -
MAJ O'Kane: Yes, sir.
LTCOL Abbott: - - - and we won't go too much into this further now, because [ think
Mike Pezzullo would like to talk a little bit more on what we're trying to understand is
the Australian conllectivity and systems and how the public administration aspects of
this have been handled leading to where we got to in this last week.
5.207
I
O'](ane-07!06!2004 70 Tape 3 of3
, , - ~ , , - - - - . ~ - ' ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ' - -
CDRE Snn.ith: Did you have cause to look at the box of documents before this matter
was - - -
MAJ O'Kane: No, I didn't, sir. I mean, I still haven't read that ICRC report that I
worked on last year and provided to Strategic Ops. What happened on 10!h May I was
o 'Kane-07 106/2004
71
Tape 3 of 3
I
I
I
doing -- on the 10
th
of May I was doing a PowerPoint course for work and received a
'phone call from Air Commodore Paule asking when did I - when I went to Iraq, for
what purposes and warned me out that the next morning I'd be required to go Strategic
. 0!2sil,lJd_gi v eillem. gQD"LQl}\\i!1atI\v ascloing there .. $0, Ivhatldid,I we!1ttc)tI2coffige
on that Tuesday morning, 'cause I was making 'phone calls to find out where and when
to go over. I pulled out-- printed out the most relevant documents and photocopied the
ICRC report. I'm sure [ photocopied it - 'cause that was the reason that I was unsure
about dates and had to work out the dates, but that ended up in some problems they
had with the original report.
And once again, in my mind the allegation of ill treatment was a non-issue. Now, I've
got - you Imow, I've been told that they're making it up, so, you lmow, there's no
mileage in investigating it. So I bundled up - printed off presentations, printed off my
post-tour repOli and later on you've got the IeRe report, put them in a plastic folder to
take over to Strategic Ops and I just gave them to him - gave him the bundle of
documents, so he said, "This is the IeRC repoli. This is the presentation you gave at
Abu Ghraib and, you Imow this is the post-tour repOli back then, as well". But at that
stage we were focusing on what dates you've got and what was the reason for going.
That was on the week of 11 th May and it wasn't until Thursday a week ago that all of a
sudden the IeRe report was raised, became the angle, you Imow, for the media to
come up with this speculation.
CDRE Smith: That's good, George. Now - - ..
MAJ O'Kane: I meant to say earlier, as to there's no - to me, there's no connection
between the allegations of the treatment that were raised in that original October report
and the views that, you lmow, you've used, you know display graphically displayed
those photographs further on down the tracIe But to me there's not a connection there
of unsubstantiated allegations, trying to link them to abuse photos.
CDRE Smith: Fine. Now, unless Mignon or Colonel Abbott have any further
questions J think we've really have taken so much of your time and - .. -
1I1AJ O'Kane: That's not a problem.
Mr Smith: Do you have any more?
IVls Patterson: No.
1111' Smith: Just for the day, nothing that you're going to talk with Mike again on
Wednesday, what he'll be interested in - - -
LTCOL Abbott: Interview completed 1815 .
. .... (tape turned off) .....
o 'K,me-07 106/2004 Tape 3 of3
LTCOL Abbott: Tape recommencing,
CDRE Smitb: Now, thanks very much, George, for giving us over three hours of your
tim e"and""""" '" "'"
MAJ O'Kane: That's no problem, sir.
CDRE Srllitb: Now is there anything you'd like to say so far, noting that you'll see Mr
Pezzullo again in a day or so's time, that you want to further add to the conversation?
MAJ O'Kane: Sir, probably the two points that I'd probably want to re-emphasise
more than anything else" first of all, there is a continuing war in Iraq going on with
these people" not always covered in the media, J think has been mentioned that there
are 30 or 40 attacks per day that are reported resulting in injury or probably resulting in
killing someone and that's the tempo of the operations that are going on at the time. The
focus is very much on containing and eliminating the attacks on the Iraqi civilian
population and the Coalition and the US forces there. At the time, that's the main focus
on everyone's effort which is why the ICRC report, you know a significant issue sort of
emphasised by anyone who was aware of it. So, that's the context of it. And secondly,
sir, I don't, you know" I'd emphasise that inteITogation is not for kicks; inteITogation is
for information to save people's lives tomorrow or the next day. But that's the
underlying rationale for it is for saving lives that are going to be lost if you do not get
that info!T1lation.
Ms Patterson: Thank you, George, When Allard phoned you, did he SOli of say, you
know how he got your name?
MAJ O'Kane: I asked him how he got my name and he said he got it " he's not
diVUlging his source, but he got it from a US source, It was clear to me during my
conversation that he had the US Forces Army" US Al1Ded Forces Senate Committee
transcript in front of him and they were trying to clarify the content of it. But to me it
was that his story was kind of written before I even spoke to him. I clarified with him
some areas, but he did not even put in what I told him.
Ms Patterson: ..... (indistinct) .....
CD RE Smith; Have you had a chance to look at that transcIipt?
MAJ O'Kane: No, sir, because, look, I was there, I know what I Imow I've done, I
don't need to revisit the experience of what went on- I've not had to look at the
transcript yet, but I'll try to research it. You Imow, I know my experience and can
check it against that.
LTCOL Abbott: Interview concluded 1822.
Record of interview conduded

O'Kane-07/06/2004 73 Tape 3 of 3
o 'Kane-07/06/2004 74 Tape 3 of3