Deschamps: Its impossible to play against Bara in the short term.

Theyve played together for fi ve, six, seven years: their game is second nature for them. When you see the way they move and how theyve managed to pass on this message to players who come from all kinds of backgrounds, thats impressive. Elsewhere, a coach isnt given that time. The policy is diff erent. Its every managers dream, but youve got to be realistic: yes, its lovely to watch them play, to dream of emulating them but youve got to have the players to play that game. And everything stems from the academy. Coco, at Nantes, when we joined the pros, wed already spent four years together in the reserves. Suaudeau: Bara are the strongest because their midfi eld is the strongest. Deschamps: The midfi eld battle... Suaudeau: A game is won in midfi eld. Only the midfi elders are able to fi nd the right way to play. They are the animators. They are the inspiration. The more players of that kind youve got, the more you can hope to win in the long term. Deschamps: I dont agree. What matters are the two zones of truth. In todays football, if youve got a great keeper and a great striker, youre not that far from victory. Of course, you shouldnt have muppets in midfi eld! Suaudeau: I disagree. Deschamps: OK, Coco, I know what

youre thinking: its impossible to fi ght against the collective power of the Catalans, therefore... Suaudeau: Dead right. Bara are superstrong in one area: anticipation. Thats the most diffi cult thing to pass on to players when theyre very good. At Barcelona, even the smallest guy gets his hands dirty and is to be feared when they try to get the ball back. Thats where Bara made the diff erence when they beat Real Madrid 5-0. Dd, thats the ultimate truth that was my truth too. Id come to the point when I conceived my attacking game as based on getting the ball back... and when the attacker becomes a defender, eh? Deschamps: Theyre fabulous. Suaudeau: And they exploit it. Real Madrid havent got this approach, for example. Real defend, and thats that. Every coach knows what hes capable of asking from his team. And it is in the fi ght to get the ball back that a team really expresses its combativeness. Barcelona are the perfect expression of that. Deschamps: The most impressive, its when the attackers manage to do the same work as midfi elders, or even defenders. Its magnifi cent! But try to apply that in France, eh? ... and their three guys in midfi eld, the way they cut the trajectories of the ball... Suaudeau: They have brought a culture of sacrifi ce to a level of perfection. Because it is very, very tiring to close the

net properly. What is Baras weakness? How do you exploit it? Deschamps: The most diffi cult thing, when you play against Bara, is when you have the ball. Either youve got it close to your own goal, which means you need to have the guy whos able to make the fi rst pass which will eliminate the fi rst block. But, three times out of four, they dont allow you to do that. Or its a counter-attack and its the same thing in the end... the fi rst pass [against Bara] must be successful and take two or three players out of the equation. You need a guy whos got great feet and who sees things quickly, because there is no time. You must fi nd the vertical pass that disrupts the lines. Suaudeau: Otherwise, they close down on you like a vice. Deschamps: ...and if they feel theyve been taken out, they foul. They do that very well too. The midfi eld guys take care of that. Suaudeau: When I asked you my question, I didnt have an answer to the problem! Me, I play the game in my head, sitting on the sofa, before its been played... because weve got a right to have fun, no? Deschamps: And its always more fun with other peoples teams! Suaudeau: Yes, every weekend, Im a coach... four teams a year. Manchester United and Liverpool in England, Real

and Bara in Spain. I try to follow them from the fi rst day of the season to the last. I dont pick the players but I re-do the tactics. And the substitutions. Deschamps: Do you regret not coaching anymore? Suaudeau: Not at all! I stopped without regrets, 13 or 14 years ago. I didnt feel like fi lling in a blank page anymore. Youll see... I choose my teams for the way they play. Which teams would you choose? Deschamps: Bara, Arsenal, Manchester United or Liverpool... and Real Madrid, maybe. Suaudeau: For Real, I havent yet seen all that I was hoping for. Im probably not objective, because I dont buy into Mourinho. His behaviour, his quotes, pff f... Hes playing a character who is too unpleasant by far. I dont function like that. Hey we havent spoken about Pep Guardiola. Deschamps: Im asked, Are you Mourinho or Guardiola? Its impossible to compare them. The philosophy of one is expressed through a single club. As to the other, you can say what you want, but he wins [in Europe] with Porto and Inter, and he reaches the semis with Chelsea and Real. Fergie is the last guy who can do what he does at the same club for twenty-fi ve years. He changes teams he doesnt swap clubs. He does everything at Manchester United, from A to Z. Suaudeau: Youd better be on top form

at his age... Deschamps: He delegates a lot. He doesnt direct the training sessions... Some weeks, he only comes from Thursday onwards. Suaudeau: Oh la la... Deschamps: Hes got a coach who does the job. At weekends, Fergie picks the team and prepares for the game. Sometimes, things that have been practised during the week are changed on matchday. Suaudeau: Really? Deschamps: Yes. Suaudeau: Hes the boss... Deschamps: Pep is a coach, not a manager like Ferguson is. He doesnt look after the administration side of things, or the gardener! Hes a technician. Suaudeau: He was a very good player to start with, a very intelligent one. The guy who made the fi rst pass from midfi eld. What wed call a sentinel today. Then he became an educator. Hes got a plan in his head, and whats wonderful is that he passes it on to the players so well. If you ask Guardiola what his idea of football is, hell answer that it is passing. But hell add: what kind of passing? And how do you manage to play those passes? Thats what gives the idea its fl avour. Hes integrated what he learnt from the older guys: football is conceived as a game of passes. The crazy thing is that these

passes dont look extraordinary but they always reach their target. Thats important. You know why, DD? Because the Bara players have a mastery of the space around them, a science of anticipation and a perception of the game as a whole, with tremendous concentration on top. Deschamps: On top of their technical excellence? Suaudeau: Its because they practise their scales all day long. Ive seen it. Deschamps: Control, pass, control, pass, non-stop for half an hour, every day, and more if necessary. After that, its easy. No, Im wrong its simple, not easy! Choose the right moment to make the pass or not, go back: theyre in it, completely. And when one of them moves towards the outside, hes not alone in doing so: the whole block moves, the players modulate their movement according to the movement of the others. Its intelligent mechanics, because you dont see two players in the same zone, everything is compensated, balanced, which means that the ballcarrier always has a solution. Its almost exaggerated at times... Suaudeau: Agreed! Deschamps: At times, youll see four or fi ve one-touch exchanges four yards apart. Im not sure that this is very useful. Even if its a way to attract the opponent, to make him come out, and when he

does, because hes fed up, tchac! ... one guy sends the ball behind the back of the defender. Bara make sure that the ball is always in movement, because its bound to be a problem for the opponent. When the ball is static, its simpler: when it is moving, even within four or fi ve yards, the passing angles are not the same anymore. This doesnt mean they dont keep the ball in midfi eld, not everything is done with one or two touches. But every time they take the ball, they turn round and they break you down by taking you out of the game. Suaudeau: Whats more, most of the passes and most of the play are directed to wrong-foot you and, physically, that hurts. Deschamps: When the midfi eld has the ball, youve got the three guys in the middle, plus the full-backs, and Messi who drops back. To start with, he plays in the middle, but the fact that he drops back has a consequence: the opposing central defenders do not have a point of reference any longer. Suaudeau: The passes make the diff erence, but it is also the passes that can unbalance Bara. Deschamps: Yes, the vertical pass, like Shakhtar Donetsk did so well in the Champions League quarter-fi nals [in 2010-11]. Thats when you come back to technical quality, because youve got very little time to integrate the information and do the right thing. You need good feet and teammates who

make themselves available. Suaudeau: When you watch Bara closely, how do they pass the ball? Most of the time, with the inside of the foot. You cant send the ball thirty-fi ve yards away that way. They use the ground, the pitch... lobbing the ball is prohibited in training. It was quite funny when I did that at Nantes. It means that those who havent got the ball must show themselves, and that you play in the intervals between the lines. Deschamps: My way of describing this is: below the belt. Its not allowed to pass the ball higher than that. We often did that at Nantes on the days following a game, we called that the spiel. I loved it and I still do it. To work on the tip of the triangle, then learn how to move. Thats when you see the guys who can swim or who cant... Suaudeau: Except that at Bara, they know each other so well... Deschamps: They put it in place with toros: ten players in a circle with two guys inside who try to intercept the ball, or a circle of fi ve and a single guy. Its torture. Suaudeau: Thats right, thats the basis of their work: rehearsal. But these are exercises which are done with maximum concentration. Not to have a laugh, even if its fun. Deschamps: Once again, they base their work on a philosophy. And when they need to, they go and get [a player] from outside of the system. But they get it

wrong too, as they did with the Swede, Ibrahimovi. Maybe he brought them something different, but they didnt stick with him. Suaudeau: Why didnt it work for him? Too individualistic? Not at all! Too static! Hes a statue, absolutely. And given the mobility of the people around him, that looked bad. He didnt take part in the collective movement of the team. Deschamps: Coco, hes still a phenomenon! I had him for two weeks at Juve he had everything, the skill, movement, the height, the coordination. Then, yes, when he feels like it... Suaudeau: He moves for himself, not for the others. Deschamps: Thats true. His outlook is not collective. Suaudeau: Precisely. Im not telling you he isnt good, only that he wasnt in his place at Barcelona, thats not the same thing. In Italy... Deschamps: In Italy, hes not asked to be collective, hes not asked to be an attacker who presses the opponent. Suaudeau: Italy is what you were talking about earlier: a good keeper and a guy upfront who scores goals. Deschamps: As long as he scores, who cares if he only touches the ball twice? A guy like David Trezeguet was like a fish in water in Serie A. Like Ibrahimovi. They are both players who dont need the others. Whereas at Bara, everyone

needs the others. Except, maybe, the little guy [Messi]... even then. Look at him with the Argentinian team. Why is it that hes not the same player? Suaudeau: Because there are shortcircuits in the teams movement. And hes not used to that. With Argentina, when he goes right, the rest go left, its a mess... Deschamps: With Bara, when youre in the axis on the pitch, theres a guy [who is available] on the side; and when theres a guy near you, there will also be another one making a run from deep. Two solutions, always. Its up to you to decide when you play against them. The solution is to lock the inside, because youre fucked if you dont; but you havent won if you only do that theres the problem of the flanks to solve, and, there, theyre a handful. Suaudeau: The true bosses are Iniesta and Xavi. Deschamps: Plus Messi. Suaudeau: Theyre the guardians of Barcelonas game. Deschamps: Messi is the trigger, he hunts the ball, hes everywhere. Suaudeau: Hes a hell of a player in ball recuperation. Deschamps: Theres a point at which you can say, Block Messi, but the other two... how do you do it? Who to put on Messi? Because, to start with, in the deployment of the team, hes an axial attacking player; are you going to ask one or two of your

central defenders to take care of him, or a midfielder? If you do that, you unbalance your own midfield. Marking Messi individually is a way to limit [his influence]. But how do you do it? When Guardiola had Etoo, he was basing his organisational choices on how quick the opposing central defenders were. If they were quick, he put Messi in the middle and Etoo on a flank; if they werent, he reversed that. Suaudeau: I still maintain that Iniesta and Messi are the pivotal players. When the play demands it, they put the ball there. They do not play their own game, they play their teams game. They never veer from that basis. Deschamps: And since Messi is bound to be near them, there is a second line of running and the two carry on combining with each other. Suaudeau: Its like laying a false track. Its monstrous. Deschamps: The player who matters is not

the one who gives the ball, but one who receives it. Its very, very hard to do that.
Suaudeau: And who dictated the movement? The player who hasnt got the ball. If Im the defender against those guys, Im watching the ball and since it is the guy who hasnt got it who dictates the play, Im dead. They dont do it once, they do it ten thousand times and in the end, you dont even ask yourself, Whos the boss? since its so natural. The

defender goes crazy. Deschamps: And theyre intelligent enough even if they get caught out sometimes to tell themselves, The pass isnt going to come, or, My teammate is off side, and, in the same movement, without a hiatus, they change their mind and change the orientation of the play. You cannot anticipate with them. You can anticipate on the guy whos got the ball, but since hes not the most important at Barcelona... Suaudeau: Youre fucked. Deschamps: Or the lines are very compact and the pass is very difficult to execute. In that case, they switch, go right, go left, and then... Suaudeau: They play handball! Deschamps: And its fast. The ball always goes faster than the players. Its hard to make players understand that it is those who havent got the ball who matter. Since every player wants the ball... but not at Bara. Suaudeau: Are you talking to me? You, you understood that. You were always on the move. To receive the ball. The guy who gets the ball when hes static doesnt surprise anyone. Ive told you often enough: the disease is remaining static. Deschamps: Its a simple as 1-2-3. Before the second player receives the ball, the third is already in movement. Thats how you create space. Suaudeau: Rehearsing your scales allows

you to acquire this ability. Nothing comes out of snapping your fingers. That is the great truth, before you even say, Ill play to win. Its to do with education, from the roots of your sporting education. Youve got to reach a certain level. Shit I dont how to say it... Deschamps: ...without hurting somebodys feelings... Suaudeau: Yes, exactly. You cant be a thicko. Were talking about an intelligent game. What Im saying could be misunderstood, but its simplicity itself. Even if were talking about a higher level of intelligence. Theres another thing Id like to talk to you about. Your famous culture of winning. Dont you think theres a bit of a problem in there? Deschamps: Its Serie As daily bread and youll agree, coach, that this is a form of football that has won a lot of trophies and which Ive drawn a lot of inspiration from. You know that. Suaudeau: Im diff erent from you in that respect. I am an educator. Deschamps: Not me! But I can suggest that I am more of a competitor than you are. Suaudeau: Theres this expression to win at all cost. It never came to my mind. Ever. Deschamps: For me, pleasure can only exist in success. Suaudeau: Tchah! ... This success you talk about, it doesnt last. Its powerful, but ephemeral. Deschamps: I have this pleasure. I

remember horrible games that I was happy to win, without having taken pleasure while playing them. Playing well with no victory in the end, I say, No, definitely. Suaudeau: And I say the opposite. Ill find plenty of elements [in the defeat] that will enable me to win tomorrow. You live for the moment. I live beyond it. Deschamps: I understand your point of view, as I know that progress also means going through failure but, today, highlevel football is about winning. When I stopped playing, I asked myself the question, Do I want to become a coach? And, above all, what kind of coach? Pass on [what I know] to the young ones? After all Id been through, I couldnt be satisfied with that. Impossible. I wouldnt have been faithful to myself. Suaudeau: I never thought you could become an educator, anyway. Deschamps: Id like to pass on what I was taught. I do like the idea of a coach who is open to the young player, if that player feels the need [to be taught]. But he has to come to me of his own will. I dont feel myself to be a coach who instigates [this exchange], all the time, with no reward. Suaudeau: Thats because youre not convincing enough. Youre a fantastic winner, but not a... persuader. Deschamps: Its mostly because I have other priorities!

Suaudeau: Ill give you that your job is harder than mine was when I was at Nantes, and was given guys whod been trained by Raynald [Denoueix]. Thats not the case with you. Hang on to your convictions. Thats crucial. Deschamps: If I have the misfortune to tell player X or Y to do this or that, Im told that the academy is where you learn football, not the first team. But if I ask them, it has to be because they dont know themselves, right? Weve spoken about game intelligence already. There are several types of intelligence. Today, for example, its quite fashionable to say that Marseille play badly. Really badly. But we score a few goals, dont we? OK, we do not control everything, and I know that we have a greater chance to win our games if we play well. I adapt. My Monaco played well, no? Suaudeau: A delight to watch. Deschamps: French football is [now] all about intensity. Suaudeau: Absolutely. We dont see any change of rhythm. There is a beat, which can be high tempo, but there is no breaking away from it. Great teams control the speed of their game. They speed up or slow down when they want to. [In France], we do everything fast but too fast, at the end of the day. Deschamps: Too many technical mistakes. Suaudeau: That also reflects training methods, you must concede that.

Deschamps: It also has to do with the type of player [French clubs look for]. Interviewer: Has football changed that much, then? Suaudeau: Its certainly quicker; duels are also more important this is where impact is made today. Training methods are different. The top guys still focus on anticipation, and that much hasnt changed. But the coaches of those top teams make it even more of a priority. What Id call game reflexes are sharper, quicker, and thats something you work on at training. If you really want to know what Im talking about, look at a toro its all about anticipation. The guys who are around the player or two players who are in the middle do not have both feet in the same clog! Deschamps: Meaning theyre always on tiptoe, not on their heels. Suaudeau: Yes you have to be like a boxer. It isnt much, but it all starts from there. Deschamps: A toro is play, as in fun but it has everything as an exercise. Small spaces, right use of the right part of the boot and, when there are two of them in the middle, the trick is to draw them to you so that the door opens and bang! Suaudeau: According to you, what has changed the most? Deschamps: The environment. Ive got something like a press-conference every day, dozens of phone calls,

interview requests. But I manage, with the media. By contrast, its harder with the entourage of the players. You didnt have to confront the things and people that go with football today; the agent, the brother, the cousin, the uncle... the executive who says that his coach is talking bullshit and undermines his job and his authority. Human management is more complex than it was in the past. My job is 60% on the fi eld, 40% off it. Suaudeau: Must be tiring! Deschamps: Everything depends on the gap between the generations of players. Some of them have seen me play, but it wont be long before there arent any of those left. Your credibility, your charisma allow you to do a few things, especially abroad, because, in France... pff ... Ive heard some people say that I wasnt talking to players, but these players should go abroad. Theyd understand what a coach who doesnt talk is. Ive spoken more to my players over the last couple of seasons than all my previous coaches spoke to me! Suaudeau: Good carry on. Deschamps: I need this relational side of things; but it varies according to the league youre working in. In Italy, at Juve, they called me Mister. When I was talking to an Italian international, Camoranesi for example, and you asked if he wanted to have a breather after an international game, he replied that it the decision was

up to me, that hed get along with it. It doesnt happen that way in France. Here, go tell a player that hes better than the guy who will start, but that the balance of the team, and the complementarity of his association with others are better when that guy is playing. Its very French: they all accept competition as long as theyre not subjected to it. Making twenty-five guys subscribe to a collective project remains simpler out of France than within our borders. The notions of pleasure and passion arent the same anymore. Its obvious that some of them do not have a passion for football. What I went through when I was a young player was sometimes tough, but I was rewarded. How I was rewarded! At Nantes, I had one right, and only one: keeping silent. The older guys were the bosses, the young ones had to listen. When the first team played the reserves on Wednesday, I wanted to nick their place and I went in full tilt... Suaudeau: And I didnt hesitate to pour some oil on the fire... I loved it. Deschamps: Yes. Today, there are still a few of the older guys who are the guardians of these [values]; and if theyre not in the majority, theyd rather shut up. At Marseille, Lucho and Heinze [since departed to AS Roma] are at the training ground an hour and a half before training, and still there an hour and a half after its finished. There are others who are already

at the wheel of their cars when Im still on the field. The same guys, they go abroad, they change their attitude... otherwise they get booted out. Suaudeau: Id like to conclude by using a sentence that DD knows well, as I kept repeating it to him twenty years ago: le plaisir du jeu gnre de lnergie pour lenjeu (An untranslatable pun which means : the pleasure of playing produced energy for what is at stake ie, winning.). It hasnt aged, dont tell me it has! Will I finally convince you? Deschamps: No, thats not it... Suaudeau: I can feel where youve gone... too much into reality. With this sentence in mind, you have fun every day, and on match days, I dont need to tell you! And youve known that at Monaco. Are you telling me its changed since then? Deschamps: Without a doubt. Suaudeau: It goes too quickly for me, then. Deschamps: We leave it at that? Suaudeau: No. I wanted to tell you one more thing. Before I stopped [in July 1997], I wanted to do something different: educate my educators, and create a team with a denser midfield, players with a different profile... A little like the AC Milan of the mid-2000s, which had six or seven midfielders and no real attacker. When Kak was still there. And this midfield would explode like fireworks. Bara do it too, with less of an explosion. All this to tell you: midfield has to change. Midfield is where the future of football

lies, not elsewhere. This is the zone in which modern football has changed the most; the runs are deeper, the capacity to eliminate has improved, with, always, the sentinel, the rampart, why not the lock? Like you. Like Pirlo. Deschamps: I had a ball in that position. And Pirlo had two runners by his side, Gattuso and Ambrosini, who compensated for his defensive deficiencies. Suaudeau: It came from Italy. Deschamps: Everything tactical comes from Italy, Coco. Suaudeau: The future of football is also speed. It must go even faster. Deschamps: Thats already the case. Fast attacks are timed at five seconds. Suaudeau: Midfi eld runs, hyper-fast... these guys are the princes of technique. Give me six or seven of them in the middle, just like that, youll be a terror. Ive said it. Back to Nantes, now.