Tom Bishop "Today's debate about global warming is essentially a debate about freedom.

The environmentalists would like to mastermind each and every possible and impossible aspect of our lives." - Vaclav Klaus - blue planet in green shackles Richard Jarden The standard playbook of the hyper-partisan is to state, as a selfevident fact, that the most extreme position of an opposing party is actually its mainstream position. Apparently every conservative is Hitler and every liberal is Stalin. Two Days Later Tom Bishop And the standard playbook of a liberal is to obfuscate. Tom Bishop Well Richard, I well remember, in college, how you admired Canada's would be dictator, Trudeau - the only man to ever rob Canadians of their human rights. There is no excuse for the removal of a nations rights...That was fascism. Tom Bishop Wait a minute, I forgot what my post was...Goodness. Richard, you would dismiss a statement like that without even pondering it? So in a sense you are what you eat, for you dismiss a criticism of the new 'catholic' secular religion of Global Warming...mmm, I smell mincemeat on the menu Richard Jarden If you want me to say that having Big Brother control every aspect of our lives would be a bad thing, I will. That would be bad. Yet my post was about political discourse. The American conservative David Brooks made an interesting point. A century ago, the personal quality that was most admired was modesty. Political discourse reflected this as we sought common ground with those whose world view differed from our own. Brooks goes on to say that what our generation has been taught to value is self-esteem. As a result, we now see those who disagree with us as simply being in the way. So is the desire to recognize nuance the same as the need of obfuscate? Four Days Later Tom Bishop Again obfuscation, as this post was a quote quite opposed to the slavish mainstream - that global warming is not an actual scientific theory, but a social theory similar to Marxism ...Your counter is essentially ' How dare you question the mainstream religion of global warming' ...Richard, Brooks is concerned only with keeping his job at the NYT. Richard Jarden In your previous post, you took me to task for dismissing a statement without even pondering it. In response, I concurred that giving any one political philosophy absolute authority over our lives would be a bad thing. Perhaps I should have been more specific, and said that this includes Environmentalism and Socialism, as much as Libertarianism and Neo-Conservatism. However, when I quoted another writer, so as to underline my point, you addressed not the substance of the idea(Dismiss, rather than ponder?), but merely challenged his integrity(Presumably hyper-partisanship and integrity are now the same thing). Perhaps the reason you smell mincemeat on the menu is that its cooking on your keypad. Richard Jarden By the way, though I accept that evidence of climate change is overwhelming, I would never condemn anyone for challenging scientific orthodoxy. One Day Later Tom Bishop But Richard, surely you have some concern when the 'hockey stick' chart of Siberian tree growths has been shown to be falsified and the East Anglian

university leaking of scientific emails admitting that various scientists were in collusion, attempting to hide data that shows global warming is not happening? Richard, its time pay attention - Global warming is nothing more than a socialist pipe dream- Please send me your email and I will send the contrarian scientific evidence ..Wow, all the original evidence has been discredited. Boy, if this had been about oil companies, you liberals would be rioting in streets, complaining of collusion of corporations, market fixing and on and on...Funny how hypocritical you libs are. Tom Bishop Richard I'm going to start you out in baby steps cause it looks like you've been in the water too long, so start off by looking up Bjorn Lomborg and his book 'Cool It - the Skeptical Environmentalist' - Each week I will try to bring more light to your troglodyte surroundings - Don't worry, we will have you thinking critically - No more emperors clothing - Seriously though, don't tell anyone you support that Trudeau character - Fascism is not cool. Tom Bishop So if you don't make an effort to examine this issue critically, please don't post here - I don't care for liberal robots. Tom Bishop Not that I don't like you, it's just threads like these are for those who don't swallow the kool aid. Richard Jarden I'm curious to know where in any of my posts you have found me saying anything like "How dare you question global warming." In fact, I encourage out-of-the-box thinking. I also think that science too often has a knowledge filter. I'm not surprised that some scientists have acted unethically. Find me any occupation on the face of the earth where everyone always acts ethically. I do not assume that because some businessmen act corruptly, that all businessmen are corrupt, and therefore the entire free market system is corrupt. That would be silly and, more importantly, intellectually dishonest. Richard Jarden Now I ask you, if it is possible that left-wing environmentalists could attempt to filter observations to fit a pre-existing belief system, can you entertain the possibility that conservatives can do the same? Richard Jarden I have tried, in every post, to find some common ground in the substance of your statements, yet you have steadfastly refused to respond to the substance of mine. When you say, "Wow, ALL the original evidence has been discredited," I find myself wondering when you've found the time to read every major science paper written on the subject over the last few decades. Im all for people expressing their doubts. Maybe Elvis is alive, and Paul is dead. Maybe we didn't really land on the moon. State you case, and I will listen. Just let me suggest one thing. Perhaps there is not a world-wide conspiracy of PHD's dedicated to an evil plan of mind control. Tom Bishop Don't fret Richard, I have given the first book to read and in the coming weeks I will fill your inbox ... Interesting, that without even making the effort to learn of opposing views, you are automatically dismissing them...I thought you liberals were supposed to be the ones with the open minds? Lol Richard Jarden What did I dismiss? Not the substance of your scientific thesis. I stated I am skeptical of conspiracy thinking. Tom Bishop Wow, you really are invested in the religion of global warming...I have read both points of view, you admit you only know one point, but you take every opportunity to mock or dismiss opposing views...Richard, you are a living embodiment of your first post Tom Bishop You bring up conspiracy and Elvis

Richard Jarden Can you be invested in a religion you are willing to doubt? Tom Bishop Are you not aware of common news? Google the 'hockey stick' environmental or the east Anglian climate gate...Don't you think you should? At least take a bite of the apple? Tom Bishop Listen Richard, I've started you on your homework. If you are so committed to your religious beliefs, that's fine. Liberals are not used to opposing views. Tom Bishop Richard, I've started stating my case. Have you read the book and looked up climategate and the hockey stick tree rings? Then I will send you the next info, but please, I must have dinner with my girlfriend now. Tom Bishop Read it or don't read it, it's up to you. Liberals aren't that good with books I realize. Richard Jarden Can you respond now to the substance of my original post. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that the most extreme view of an opposing party must inevitably also be its mainstream view. I've said, time and again, I am willing to accept that mainstream thinking could be wrong. History shows as much. Can you entertain the possibility that, just as scientists can filter facts, conservatives can do the same. Again, I think back to Brooks' quote. I remember how men of my grandparent's era were in awe of educated men, too often unwisely. Today, I wonder if resentment of educated men is motivated primarily by their insistence on suggesting that the world is not is we would prefer it to be. Consequence free. Richard Jarden By the way, I'm always willing to read. Send what you want. Tom Bishop I have listed it in the thread, Richard. I'm getting the feeling you don't read. Tom Bishop And Bjorn Lomborg is not a conservative. Richard Jarden That's because I read more than one book. It helps one to keep an open mind. That's part of the point. Accepting that knowledge of everyone's point of view gives you a bigger picture of reality. And by the way, I don't assume that a science writers politics dictate his thesis. Do you? Tom Bishop I will send you endless articles until you will want to defriend me. Richard Jarden Is this a staring match? Richard Jarden The best way to get me to stop responding is to never answer the substance of anything I say. I don't see the point of one way conversations. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. Not mine, but not yours either. Anytime you want to meet me outside, I'll be there? Tom Bishop So if I stop answering your questions, you stop responding - Fair enough. Richard Jarden A conversation requires two people listening to what the other is saying. If you re-read my posts, you will find me continually seeking common ground. You cannot do so if you do not actually read what the other is saying. Here's what I read from reviewing our posts. Tom: Environmentalists are engaged in a global hoax with the ultimate objective of controlling every aspect of our lives.

Richard Jarden Rick: Presenting the most extreme version of an opposing position as its mainstream objective is intellectually dishonest. Richard Jarden Rick: Hyper-partisanship is a product of our current cultures inability to listen to the substance of conflicting opinions. One Day Later Tom Bishop Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Barry Goldwater Tom Bishop I think I'm most troubled, Rick, by your initial entry into this thread. You presented yourself as a very patronizing intellectual, yet you reveal that you accepted man made global warming without question, and that my questioning of it made me an extremist. You suggest I might also question the moon landing or Elviss death -all petty tactics on your part to discredit my thoughts, most likely because, like a religious person, you were uncomfortable when someone questioned your beliefs and something that you had been too lazy to even question. Now I see that Steve Milner has also posted an article discrediting global warming - I hope you don't also accuse him of not believing in the moon landing. Richard Jarden "I feel very definitely that the administration is absolutely correct in cracking down on companies and corporations and municipalities that continue to pollute the nation's air and water. While I am a great believer in the free competitive enterprise system and all that it entails, I am an even stronger believer in the right of our people to live in a clean and pollution-free environment. To this end, it is my belief that when pollution is found, it should be halted at the source, even if this requires stringent government action against important segments of the national economy." - Barry Goldwater, 1969 Richard Jarden First off, the "Elvis is alive and Paul is dead" line seems not to have been taken the way I would have wished. It was not meant as ridicule, but as a joke I thought you, of all people, would appreciate. The point of the comment was not that your point of view should be dismissed, but rather that I am open to ideas that others would instantly dismiss. Skepticism is not denial. Tom Bishop Are you obfuscating again? Richard Jarden Is skepticism denial? Tom Bishop You are hardly the skeptic when you wrote, and I quote, "I accept that evidence of climate change is overwhelming" Tom Bishop Did you examine the evidence or just climb on the hay wagon? Richard Jarden Innocent men have been convicted of crimes they did not commit on the basis of overwhelming evidence. Scientist have been wrong before, so I am open to the possibility they can be wrong again. Richard Jarden But that works both ways. Tom Bishop Well, now you seem to be softening, but initially you were ready to hang Copernicus - Good for you Rick, and we'll try explain to you why a man who robbed Canadians of their human rights is no hero. Tom Bishop Now get reading! Richard Jarden Hey, I just read my Goldwater quote. Inspiring.

Tom Bishop He also wanted to nuke Vietnam Richard Jarden You quoted him first. Just following your lead. Tom Bishop Course your quote has little to do with the topic of this thread, and can easily be seen as standard liberal playbook of change the topic when you're losing the argument. Richard Jarden Who brought up Trudeau about three times so far? Tom Bishop Yes, but I was answering your comments suggesting that my disagreement with official global warming socialism made me extreme. Richard Jarden Goldwater said that he was willing to limit liberty for the sake of the environment. I thought that was applicable to your previous quote. Tom Bishop Trudeau has context, because you believe in him, so you probably aren't the biggest fan of individual liberty, which is what the original quote discussed. Richard Jarden Actually, my initial post was in response to someone else's post you quoted, which I felt sought to cast all environmentalists as totalitarians. Tom Bishop On perhaps corporations ...Okay, I will accept your Goldwater - as not too many people would counter a Goldwaterism with another:) Tom Bishop And they are from a conservative point of view Tom Bishop But you've got some reading to do my young Robespierre Richard Jarden In fact, I don't believe that the world is divided strictly between heros and villians. Do I think Trudeau was wrong to suspend civil liberties in 1970? Yes. Do I believe that Trudeau's concentrating of power amongst a minority of parliamentarians has been destructive, followed and increased in turn by Mulroney, Chretien and Harper? Absolutely. As for Fascism, perhaps your definition is different from mine, but policies like bilingualism and multiculturalism would be unthinkable to an actually fascist. Bottom line. I don't need to see Trudeau or Goldwater as one sided. Thinking for yourself doesn't require joining a team. Richard Jarden We're not all white hats and black hats. Richard Jarden Skepticism is healthy. Certainty is dangerous. Tom Bishop That's not true. Bilingualism, and particularly multiculturalism, can be used by fascists to disrupt and divide a nation. Richard Jarden So was it Hitler, Mussolini or Franco that chose that tactic? As a student of history, I'm interested. I assume you're making reference to something that has actually occured amongst a movement that considered itself to be fascist, rather than one you consider to be fascist, according to some private definition. Richard Jarden That a nation should not be disrupted and divided amongst differing cultural and political groups is one of the core beliefs of fascism. Tom Bishop Certainly multiculturalism is a divisive apparatus used by Trudeau to weaken Canada's links to England ...Certainly the proposition that all cultures are equal is preposterous ...Do you believe in female circumcision? The custom of Settee

in India, where a wife is burned alive at her husbands funeral pyre? Or how about French law, where you are guilty until proven innocent? Tom Bishop Wow Richard, that is also the goal of normal democracies ....I think you've got fascism on the brain Richard Jarden My point was not whether multiculturalism is right or wrong. My point is that multiculturalism is not fascism. Tom Bishop I should remind you that fascism is a left wing device. Tom Bishop As is multiculturalism Richard Jarden Ah, so that's the private definition. Tom Bishop So Richard, do you embrace the rural Pakistan culture of throwing acid in a girls face if she is seen with a strange man? Richard Jarden Nope. Tom Bishop What about the Afghan tradition of using a stone wall and knocking it down on someone who is gay? Richard Jarden While we may not have much in common, I hope one thing that we do have in common is that we both do not equate tolerance with tolerating intolerance in others. Tom Bishop So then you aren't a multiculturalist? Or you just like the cute costumes they wear? Or are you unaware that other cultures also have things that are harmful to our Anglo cultural beliefs? Richard Jarden What are our SPECIFICALLY Anglo beliefs? Richard Jarden Multiculturalism, like criminal law, is intended to protect the weak. Like criminal law, it can be abused. Tom Bishop So you agree not all cultures are equal? Richard Jarden That's like saying all ideas are equal. Tom Bishop You would dare criticize other cultures? So you agree that our culture is superior ? Tom Bishop Rule of law, high trust, Tom Bishop Innocent until proven guilty, women's rights Richard Jarden Sure. Support those aspects of our culture, over aspects of other cultures that deny them. Tom Bishop So in some cultures child brides given by the parents is perfectly normal - Is this the multicultural experience you believe in? Tom Bishop So why have government run multiculturalism?

Richard Jarden It's not about running it. It's about tolerating it, within a set of laws that we mutually agree upon. Richard Jarden People from other cultures are free to their own opinions about my culture. I am free to my opinions about any aspect of their culture. Tom Bishop Why not eat dog, Richard - Obama eats dog, Koreans eat dog Shouldn't you support that ? Tom Bishop But you agree that Anglo culture is best for ruling Canada? Richard Jarden I'm a big fan of our western tradition of liberal democracy. Tom Bishop So if I was from Saudi Arabia, you would agree with me that women must be covered up in a bag here in Canada, and that gays should be killed? Tom Bishop So you would tolerate immigrants from countries where gays are persecuted to persecute gays here? Tom Bishop You can't have it both ways Richard Richard Jarden I believe that if women here choose to wear a burka, they may, but as a constitutional democracy, we must be on guard to protect women who refuse to do so. What's our alternative? Telling women they can't wear a burka? No. We just have to make sure they know they don't have to. Tom Bishop Why can't you tolerate the belief that women can be punished for walking along without a chaperone ??? That had been a centuries old cultural tradition ??? Richard Jarden Because we all have the right to dissent. Tom Bishop But Richard its not a choice I am talking about- You are too wishy washy - You naively want peace and love, and there are some cultures that just don't agree with us. Tom Bishop So you are opposed to multiculturalism? Richard Jarden We do not have the right to ignore laws passed to protect all of us. And I can tolerate people disagreeing with me. Tom Bishop Or you enjoy seeing women denied the right to vote or people torturing dogs or people persecuting gays? Richard Jarden Like yourself, I am opposed to the suggestion that I should ever feel I should hold my tongue for fear that it will offend someone else's belief system. Tom Bishop Richard, do you think our culture should adopt some of these things I have highlighted in other cultures? Tom Bishop Do you think we should torture gays or put to death those who would change their religions? Richard Jarden I was quite unaware that multiculturalism has led, legally in Canada, to denying a woman's right to vote, torturing dogs or killing gays.

Richard Jarden Which party in parliament has that on their fall agenda? Tom Bishop But Richard, we have human rights commissions in this country that persecute people who speak their mind, and Trudeau set them up. Tom Bishop Ezra Levant was taken to court for publishing the Danish Mohammed cartoons - Did you know that? Did you care that we have so little free speech in this country? Richard Jarden I am also skeptical of human rights commissions tendency to act as a parallel justice system. I just don't know when they have gone after people for defending women, dogs or gays. Richard Jarden And what was the verdict? Tom Bishop Richard, when you promote multiculturalism, you tell immigrants it's all right to advocate for their way of life - Don't you recall a few years ago they almost had sharia law in a non-binding family court in Ontario? Richard Jarden By almost, do you mean that any government introduced such a bill in parliament. Tom Bishop If you actually cared about our liberties you would know - but I get the feeling you just follow liberal party talking points. Tom Bishop Yes, McGuinty finally killed it after a Huge outcry - I feel so sad for you that you have so much to say, yet seem to care so little for what goes on. Richard Jarden Just trying to pin you down, man. And I do know. Even an attempt to do so in a NON-BINDING court got shot down. Richard Jarden Part of the outcry was from liberal Islamic organizations. Richard Jarden I should warn you, I'm on holiday, it's raining outside, and there's nothing on TV. I'm not actually out to get you. Richard Jarden Strangely enough(or perhaps not so strangely), the direction that this conversation has gone in is entirely applicable to my initial post. Tom: If you support multiculturalism, then you also support suppression of women's rights, dog eating and killing gays. Richard Jarden Now, do you remember what my original post was? One Day Later Tom Bishop I don't support multiculturalism Richard ...I believe Anglo common law to be superior to all others - It has led the way in women's right , minority rights , suppression of slavery and liberty in general. Tom Bishop On multiculturalism by Harry Gelber, QuadrAnt magazine "in the absence of a strong and shared sense of cohesion, based on the reality of a nation with its own faith, unspoken assumptions and language, and rooted in some particular place, what happens to the state? What seems to happen, among other things, is that what was an organic, even instinctive, relationship tends to become supplemented, if not replaced, by a relationship altogether less profound and emotional. Laws are no longer obeyed because they are the legitimately devised laws of our community."

Tom Bishop Harry Gelber is emeritus professor of political science and honorary research associate in the school of government university of Tasmania he had been visiting professor at Harvard, Yale, Boston University and the London School of Economics. Richard Jarden It is a mistake to assume that for a population to have shared values, it must have a shared culture. A century ago, the divisions in this province between Catholics and Protestants was antagonistic in ways that seem inconceivable today. Yet English and French, Catholic and Protestant, banded together to forge the democratic institutions that are the proud centerpiece of our joint cultural values. Over the next century, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and others would, by virtue of our common values, become a people that, in most cases, are indistinguishable from one another. British, French, German and Russian, you would not know one from the other at any get-together. Richard Jarden When Diefenbaker(not Trudeau) came to power, a man who had encountered prejudice during WWI, based solely on the origin of his surname, and moved to allow people of all races, not just Anglo-Saxons, to enter Canada, the roof did not fall in. Toronto, where I have lived most of my adult life, has a population that is more than 50% first, second or third generation immigrant, and if it is a cultural cesspool, that is news to me. Yes, the first may arrive with some of the social conservative claptrap that has poisoned their home countries, but few of their grandchildren share those values. The benefit of multiculturalism alongside liberal democracy is that, while the first generation may tend to ghettoize itself, each following one, told that their differences are part of a larger mosaic, come to see their cultural background as immaterial to their destinies as Canadians. That's why third generation Canadians have more in common with tenth generations Canadians than they do with their own grandparents. If you want to see what immigration looks like without multiculturalism, take a look at Europe. Richard Jarden I might remind you, someone who seems to see a fascist around every corner, that the demand for social cohesion through cultural purity is one of the most tragic aspects of fascism. Tom Bishop But Richard, youre using antidotal evidence. The man I quote uses scientific evidence. Why are you so afraid of scientific analysis? Richard Jarden If a hundred years ago, the Anglican great-grandparents on my father's side, knew that a grandson of theirs, my father, would marry a Catholic, my mother, with the full consent and good will of all my grandparents, they would be horrified. Those values of my great-grandparents are also Anglo values. We have moved past them and are better for it. Richard Jarden True scientific evidence is based not on theory, but on observation. Tom Bishop Richard, ever stop to ponder why it was that way? Have you no depth? In the 1890s the pope posted a papal bull, which all Catholics must follow, that denounced democracy as the work of the devil. This bull was not repealed until the 1960s. Also, your ancestors lived through times in which all of Catholic Europe was at war with England - Do you know the origins of the Orangeman???!!! Richard, seriously, war and strife was caused in the past by Catholic zealots. England was attacked by Spain over its choice of religion. Richard Jarden Let me also make it clear that I fully agree that western liberal democracys achievements in women's rights, minority rights and the abolishment of slavery is a legacy of which we should be enormously proud. Yet dont forget that it is a legacy that non-Anglo-Saxons, like Diefenbaker, can take pride in too.

Tom Bishop Richard, you are intelligent, but like a lot of liberals, you don't have much depth - If you don't understand why your ancestors were concerned about the Catholic religion, you really need to do some thoughtful research. Tom Bishop Ugh, are there no liberal intellectuals whatsoever? Richard Jarden Do you believe that Canadian Catholics present a danger to Canadian culture? Speaking as an agnostic, I don't, regardless of the history of the church as an institution. Richard Jarden I guess you're not a Rick Santorum man. Richard Jarden Or a Paul Ryan man. Richard Jarden I wonder what Irish Catholics like Paul Ryan's ancestors thought about Anglo values in the mid-19th century? Tom Bishop Richard, do you understand? Tom Bishop Richard, have you no comprehension skills? Tom Bishop Do you understand that Anglos had real fears of Catholics for hundreds of years ??? Do you understand that the popes were against democracy until the 20th century??!!! That Catholics plotted to overturn the Protestant religion all over Europe??? Richard, you have to be a little deeper intellectually than the pages of the liberal party red book. Tom Bishop Paul Ryan obviously likes Anglo culture and law - He isn't whiny about his ancestors like a liberal. Tom Bishop Besides, if you actually knew something more than Trudeaus middle name, you would know that the first and greatest conservative, Edmund Burke - was an Irishman, and he was one of the greatest Anglo parliamentarians of all. lol Tom Bishop And you demand proof that global warming is a scam, and I give you a taste, and you don't even bother to look at it - Typical liberal - tolerant only of his own views. Richard Jarden So I take it that paranoia that Paul Ryan is anti-democratic, just because he is a Catholic, is a ridiculously obtuse belief. I wish you could have told that to my great-grandparents a century ago. It turns out, like I've tried to say over and over, that we are all a little more nuanced that the easy labels some put on us. And was Edmund Burke an Irish Catholic? Tom Bishop Richard, do you read easily? RichardJardenI will get around to reading what you have sent me, because I am intererested in different points of view, but I notice that you still haven't responded to the substance of my original post. Again. Presenting the most extreme position of an opposing party as actually being its mainstream position is intellectually dishonest. RichardJarden Burke was the son of an Anglican father and a Catholic mother. He himself was a practicing Anglican throughout his life. However, he was frequently accused of being a secret Catholic. Openly being one would have disqualified him from office under the Irish penal system, regardless of what his actual views were.

RichardJarden It seems that, under the Anglo political culture of the time, it was normal to assume that the most extreme political positions of the Catholic Church were inevitably the positions of all Catholics. In response to a different post: Tom Bishop Sixteen Global Scientist: No Need to Panic about Global Warning online.wjs.com RichardJarden Global warming is real it is man-made and it is an important problem. But it is not the end of the world. Bjorn Lomborg, New Statesman, 2010

RichardJarden I took your advice and did a little reading. It seems that Lomborgs examination of the evidence has caused his opinion to evolve a little bit since The Skeptical Environmentalist was published ELEVEN YEARS AGO.