THE HON BILL SHORTEN MP LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION MEMBER FOR MARIBYRNONG

E&OE TRANSCRIPT TELEVISION INTERVIEW ABC INSIDERS SUNDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2013 Subjects: The Coalitions Direct Action con, Coalitions failed turn back the boats policy, Australias damaged relationship with Indonesia, savage cuts to jobs and services, Coalition split over foreign investment, entitlements, parliament. Barrie Cassidy: Bill Shorten, welcome. Bill Shorten: Good morning, Barrie. Barrie Cassidy: Well Tony Abbott seems delighted to be able to line you up as a carbon copy of two previous sacked Labor leaders? Bill Shorten: Well, Tony Abbott's keen to talk about me but that's clear that he doesn't want to talk about his own lack of action on climate change and indeed that they're in fact a different government to the way they conducted themselves in Opposition more generally. Barrie Cassidy: Is he right when he says you were never keen on the policy anyway? Bill Shorten: I believe climate change is real. I and Labor fundamentally believe that carbon pollution contributes to climate change. We all know, Australians know that the extreme weather we're seeing more and more of, we all know that carbon pollution plays a role in it. What Labor said before the election, which is the policy which we're still applying now is that we would scrap the carbon tax so long as there was real and effective policies to tackle climate change. But if the Liberals have their way, and they've got this silly policy of Direct Action which is just paying big polluters to pollute, we're not going to have a bar of that.

Barrie Cassidy: But it does seems that at one point, and certainly now it does seem like there are pragmatists within the party who would prefer to get rid of the issue all together, and at one point it seems you were one of those? Bill Shorten: No, I've always believed and Labor always believes that the science is right. We are not a party who is going to tell future generations of our kids and our grandkids that just because of political calculation in November of 2013 that we would give up acting on the real issues for the future of this country. Thats not the way Labors cut. Barrie Cassidy: You want to move to an ETS but thats just carbon tax by another name isn't it? Bill Shorten: Not at all, what we want to do is make sure we have a price on carbon pollution. We want to see the big polluters in this country pay for some of the costs that they do to future generations and our kids and our grandkids future. Barrie Cassidy: But if they do, why is that not a tax? It's still a penalty imposed upon the polluters. Bill Shorten: We are not going for a carbon tax. My background is as a negotiator; we look for the middle way. What we have said to Tony Abbot and the Coalition is we will scrap the carbon tax on the basis that we move towards effective policies to deal with carbon pollution and thats what we are doing. That's what we will propose, that was our policy before the election and we are consistent now with what we said before the election. But by contrast the Abbott Government's offering up this, what they euphemistically call Direct Action, thats just what climate sceptics call their policies when in fact they dont want to be called climate sceptics. It wont work and its expensive. Barrie Cassidy: The Greens want an inquiry into Direct Action, are you going to support that? Bill Shorten: Well Labor doesnt believe that Direct Action will work. I mean think about it, what we have in Australia is Barrie Cassidy: So you will support the inquiry? Bill Shorten: Well let's just explain what we think about Direct Action which is the purpose about the debate about the inquiry. What is the sense in paying large companies money when they are polluting our environment now? That doesn't make sense. Instead what we want to do is effectively tackle climate change. We know that Direct Action is a lemon. We know that there is not a serious economist, not a serious scientist in the world who thinks Direct Action policies will work. So why on earth should the taxpayer foot the bill so that the Coalition can have a fig leaf to pretend they care about climate change when in fact they don't. Barrie Cassidy: So you will support the inquiry?

Bill Shorten: We believe that there should be a study done of the Direct Action and an exposure of the flaws in the Liberal policy. For us, what guides Labor isn't what the opinion polls say next week. What guides us is will we be able to look at our kids and grandkids and say that when we're in Parliament we actually took decisions which helped the long-term future of this country. The Coalition, they dont even believe in climate change. Its been interesting, John Howard said in London, which seems to be the favourite sort of place for conservative politicians to talk about Australia, what he said is that their policy on climate change was just a political fig leaf back in 2007 because they know that Australians wanted action on climate change. And dial forward to 2013, the Coalition's just proposing anything to get them off the hook about acting on climate change. Barrie Cassidy: Will you facilitate a vote before Christmas? Bill Shorten: First of all we've got to see if the Coalition will go with our amendments which are in the process of drafting. We are most interested and we are most committed to having something real on climate change. We don't want to be known as the Parliament of Australia who turned its back on climate change and tackling pollution. Barrie Cassidy: Does that mean a vote before Christmas? Bill Shorten: Well well have to see how the Libs go; theres a lot of moving parts in this. Barrie Cassidy: Well they would be very anxious to have a vote before Christmas. Bill Shorten: Well what we are most anxious to do is to have a real policy on climate change. The timing of these matters is to do with the Coalition; they have the numbers in the House of Representatives. In terms of the Senate there's the Greens, theres Labor, theres the Liberals. Labor doesn't have the numbers in the Senate to force or not force some of these issues. But what I can promise Australians is that when you see Labor, you will see a party who will always try and find the negotiated outcome, the compromise, but we'll do it from our principles, which is were not going to mortgage the future of Australia just because the Coalition dont believe in the science of climate change. Barrie Cassidy: On asylum seekers, did the Government eventually do the right thing by taking the asylum seekers back to Christmas Island? Bill Shorten: Wow, arent the Coalition in trouble on their boats policy. They said before the election they would turn back the boats. Now we are seeing that not only are they not turning back the boats, but they are hiding behind Australias military when they do press conferences, theyre not answering questions about what is really happening. As one of your panellists said, we are finding out more about what the Australian Government's doing in the Jakarta Post than we're finding out from the Government ministers. So there's no doubt in my mind that the Coalition's boat person policy is absolutely not working and this pattern of secrecy where they won't even tell the Australian population what they're doing shows that in opposition they

were happy to be all things to all people but in government youve now got to send out a search party to find them. Barrie Cassidy: You say that their policy is in trouble, before this particular boat arrived at Christmas Island, it's on its way to Christmas Island, there have been no arrivals in two weeks, when's the last time that happened? Bill Shorten: First of all I think that we need to give some acknowledgement that Labors PNG solution, regional solution, was working. It was discouraging the people smugglers. I don't think anyone who has watched Australian politics over the last two or three weeks think that the Coalition Government's got its boat persons policy right. What we see them doing is we see them saying they'll turn back the boats. Somehow in the course of the last eight weeks the new Australian Coalition Government has managed to damage our relationship with Indonesia, thats got to be a land speed record for getting things wrong, they promised the Australian people before the election they'd turn back the boats, now they are taking them to Christmas Island, contrary to what they promised they'd do. What the Coalition needs to do is instead of playing politics, instead of relying on slogans, they should work with the Opposition, they should work with the Indonesian Government. Complex problems require complex thinking and answers, they dont require simple slogans. The Coalition is finding that being in Government is a little harder than being in Opposition. Barrie Cassidy: What Tony Abbott wants is when parliament resumes on Tuesday, is he wants a calmer, more civilised environment. Now surely that's precisely what the public want as well? Bill Shorten: There's no doubt that Australia wants to see a constructive Parliament. But what I also know is that the Australian people want to see the Government held to account. They want to see that what they said before they got elected is what they do when they get elected. I mean, I think the Coalition Government assume that Australians have got short-term memory. Before the election they said there was a debt crisis. Now they're seeking to almost double government debt. Before the election they said they'd turn back the boats, now they're taking the boats and theyre not turning them back. Before the election they said there was a budget emergency and now they're doing very little to try and deal with the budget. And before the election they said there wouldn't be ruthless cuts and now they're getting rid of a quarter of Australia's scientists at the CSIRO. Barrie Cassidy: So what are you saying, you want a calm Parliament but you won't get one? Bill Shorten: We want a constructive Parliament. The best way to have a calm Parliament is for Tony Abbott and his Government to run an open and transparent government. They won't answer the media's questions, at least in Parliament for Question Time they can't run away and they will have to answer questions from the Opposition.

Barrie Cassidy: What style of Opposition Leader will you be in the Parliament? Are you going to be aggressive as Tony Abbott was? It was effective, it worked, hes now Prime Minister. Bill Shorten: Well no, I'm certainly not going to model myself on Tony Abbotts aggression and negativity. What I know Australians want, is they want to see a debate in the Parliament about the future of this country. They want to make sure also the government of the day keeps its word. What we have seen already, be it from debt which they want to double, be it from not turning back the boats which they promised to do, from them promising not to have swinging cuts into making decisions which see people lose their jobs, people want to see consistency from a government, they want the Government to keep the promises it made in Opposition and well hold them to account. Barrie Cassidy: And the GrainCorp decision on whether the Americans are allowed to buy in, that seems to be something thats dividing the Coalition, but it is in the end a matter for Joe Hockey on his own, but what's Labor's view? Bill Shorten: Well, my view is that foreign investment is an important part of this nation's infrastructure and investment. Foreign investment shouldn't be treated with suspicion. On the other hand we've got to make sure that the foreign investment meets Australia's national interest test. I'll be interested to see, and this will be a real test for the Coalition, will Joe Hockey be able to be consistent to his city-based, liberal, free market views or will he listen to his National and country Liberal colleagues. This is a test for the Government. I believe that the Coalition will probably just support the decision for GrainCorp to be sold off. I think they will try to put some conditions around it to make it look like they havent simply acquiesced to that free market philosophy. This is a challenge for the Government. Ill also be interested to see though if Joe Hockey can face down the National Party and show the National Party that in fact it's the city Liberals who run the Coalition. So there's a few tests for the Coalition in this. Barrie Cassidy: Do you think Barnaby Joyce would walk over something like this? Bill Shorten: I don't know. Barnaby Joyce had a lot to say in Opposition. Let's see in Government if he's true to the person he was in Opposition. Again though, this is the big trend. In opposition these people were all things to all people. In Government where youve got to make hard decisions and you may not please everyone, let's just see how they go and so far I think that most reasonable people, even as they look forward to the end of the year and perhaps less political rancour, I think there would be some questions over the way this Government's making decisions and the way they're not being transparent about their processes. Barrie Cassidy: On MPs' entitlements have they gone far enough? Bill Shorten: I don't know. The jury's out for me on this and indeed for Labor. Barrie Cassidy: Why don't you know?

Bill Shorten: Because we don't know if these new minimalist changes that the Government have made will in fact work. I think that there's a lot of reference to what's the pub test. Barrie Cassidy: But you talk about a lack of leadership in this country, this is an issue where I think the public is calling out for leadership. Bill Shorten: Yes I think you're right. Barrie Cassidy: It seems as if all MPs are united on this? Bill Shorten: No, it's up to the Government to decide if they have an issue. I think its true and fair minded people would say the Government has been dragged kicking and screaming, this entitlements issue has been swirling around for the last four to six weeks. I get the impression that the Government has not wanted to do anything. The fact that they can sort of Barrie Cassidy: Thats the impression I get from you as well. Bill Shorten: The difference though is we are the Opposition, Barrie. Maybe I wish it wasn't so but we are. It is up to the Government, and what we've said is we will work constructively with the Government, so well look at these proposals that Tony Abbott has announced yesterday. We will see if these changes will work and we have said all along we're up for sensible changes. The question though, I think, is which is emerging in the last 24 hours from a lot of people, is are these changes merely designed to placate community outrage or are they genuine long-term changes which will be in the best interests of building confidence, and at this stage we don't know if the Government's proposals will work. Barrie Cassidy: And just finally, Bronwyn Bishop's name will be put up for Speaker on Tuesday. Are you comfortable with that? Bill Shorten: Well, the Government's got the numbers to enforce whoever they want. The challenge, I think, will be for a new conservative Coalition speaker to not be partisan and I think that's the challenge because it's important that the Speaker upholds the dignity of the Parliament and is able to administer order in the House in a way which doesn't favour the Coalition Government, so that will be another test for the Government and the new Speaker. Barrie Cassidy: Thanks for your time this morning. Bill Shorten: Thanks very much, Barrie.

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