Transcription of Episode 125 51% Solutions and Zhou

Tonged!
Participants:
Adam B Levine (ABL) - Host
Andreas M. Antonopoulos (AA) - Co-Host
Thomas Hunt (TH) orldCr!pto"et#or$.com (intervie#s %hou Ton&ed)
%hou Ton&ed (%T) - Musician
Adam B Levine: Toda! is the '
th
(ul! )*+,- this is episode +).. This episode is
intended /or in/ormational and educational purposes onl!. Cr!ptocurrencies are a
ne# /orm o/ stud!. Consult !our local /uturist- la#!er- and investment advisor
0e/ore ma$in& an! decisions.
elcome to Let1s Tal$ Bitcoin- a t#ice #ee$l! sho# a0out ideas o/ people and
pro2ects 0uildin& the di&ital econom! and the /uture o/ mone!. M! name is Adam
B Levine and toda! #e1re 0ac$ in the 3o#- this episode mar$s the start o/ our
.+4 solution series- /or the ne5t several episodes !ou1ll 6nd at least hal/ the
sho# devoted to intervie#s and discussions a0out the pro0lems o/ miner
centrali7ation and some o/ the proposed solutions.
Toda! #e $ic$ thin&s o8 #ith a conversation 9 had #ith Andreas a /e# #ee$s a&o-
#e 0rie3! catch up on his pro2ects and then 2ump into the &hash.io controvers!
the true threat o/ the .+4 attac$ and #hat 9t all means in the 0i& picture. Part
t#o o/ toda!1s sho# comes to us 0! #a! o/ Thomas over at
#orldcr!ptonet#or$.com- at the recent Bitcoins in the Belt#a! event he cau&ht
up #ith the m!sterious Bitcoin musician %hou Ton&ed. The! tal$ ori&ins o/ music-
tradin& and in3uences. :n2o! the sho#.
ABL:Andreas- it1s 0een a #hile since #e1ve had !ou on the sho#. Ho#1re !ou
doin& man;
Andreas M. Antonopoulos: 91m doin& &reat- it1s 0een rather 0us! and 9 had one o/
those li/e events movin& out o/ a house #hich #as stress/ul and time
consumin& 0ut all is #ell and 91m reall! &lad to 0e 0ac$ on the sho#.
ABL:Andreas- !ou1re #or$in& on one o/ the comprehensive 0oo$s in the Bitcoin
space. <ou1ve 0een #or$in& on it no# /or comin& up a !ear in a couple o/
months- can !ou &ive us an update on that /or people #ho are #aitin& /or it to
come out;
ABL:The 0oo$ is Masterin& Bitcoin and it is 0ein& pu0lished 0! =1>iell! Media
#hich is one o/ the leadin& pu0lishers /or developers. The! have an e5cellent
series o/ 0oo$s #ith animals on the covers called the ?a/ari ?eries and Masterin&
Bitcoin is &oin& to come out as part o/ that. e have alread! &ot pre-sales up on
the =1>iell! #e0site and as 9 promised in the earl! da!s- the 0oo$ is availa0le
under an open-source license so it is currentl! availa0le as an earl! release dra/t
that people can 0u!. 9t1s also availa0le on @ithu0. People can &o and read it and
even do pull reAuests- su0mit issues Ba0out the 0oo$C and ma$e chan&es to it as
its 0ein& developed.
The! can see the development live- the 6rst /our chapter are alread! pu0lished
and #e1re #or$in& on chapter 6ve #hich is a0out transactions. hat 91m loo$in&
at- at the moment is to see i/ the communit! #ill contri0ute various code
snippets recipes- 0its o/ code that demonstrate various concepts that 9 can
include in the 0oo$. 9 have received tremendous support /rom the communit!- so
man! people have su0mitted 65es- corrections and have added 0its o/ content.
9t1s &oin& ver! #ell- #e e5pect it to 0e pu0lished #ithin the /all o/ )*+,. "o# is
the 6nal stretch /or the 0oo$- 9 e5pect to 6nish it #ithin the ne5t t#o months and
a/ter that it #ill 0e availa0le in print- an e-0oo$ as #ell as an online do#nload
under Creative Commons Attri0ution License so that an!one can read it- share it
and even mash it up.
ABL:?o one o/ the other reasons !ou haven1t 0een on some o/ the recent sho#s
is 0ecause !ou1re also teachin& a class at the "icosia Dniversit! it1s a M==C
(Massive =pen =nline Course). 9s this somethin& that1s availa0le /or people at
this point;
ABL:<eah a0solutel!- the Dniversit! o/ "icosia #hich is in C!prus has a ver!
0road :n&lish lan&ua&e pro&ram on a variet! o/ su02ects- the! have man!
di8erent departments includin& a Computer ?cience department. As a cross-
disciplinar! pro&ram the! o8er #hat 9 0elieve is the #orld1s 6rst master1s de&ree
on the topic o/ di&ital cr!ptocurrencies. The! call it the M?c in Ei&ital Currencies-
that pro&ram oFciall! started a month and a hal/ a&o- i/ !ou remem0er- the
Dniversit! o/ "icosia #as also the 6rst Dniversit! to accept Bitcoin pa!ments /or
its tuition. "o# the!1re also teachin& a master1s de&ree in cr!ptocurrencies and
as a pre-cursor to the master1s de&ree #e1re doin& a Massive =pen =nline
Course also $no#n as a M==C.
This is a course that1s o8ered as a series o/ presentations to&ether #ith
interactive GHA sessions #ith the instructors as #ell as &ivin& Aui77es. This is an
introductor! course /or di&ital cr!ptocurrencies and Bitcoin #hich teaches !ou
a0out Bitcoin- the purpose o/ the course is- i/ !ou ta$e the M==C and complete
the course !ou can then use that as credit to#ards the master1s de&ree or !ou
can 2ust ta$e the M==C as an introductor! course to Bitcoin. 9t1s completel! /ree
and an!one can si&n up- there is a #ealth o/ material- the course covers Auite a
0road set o/ topics. There is some technical in/ormation #hich is more Computer
?cience orientated- there is in/ormation to do #ith economics- 0usiness- 6nance
and la# so it1s a&ain a cross-discipline course.
91m &oin& to 0e doin& the ne5t sessions GHA on Monda! /or session si5. All o/
those are availa0le online- 0oth the materials as #ell as the recorded GHA videos
and interactive sessions.
ABL:91ll set up a /or#ard lin$ so !ou can &o to letstal$0itcoin.comIM==C to &et
directl! lin$ed to that.
ABL:9t1s ver! e5citin& 0ecause it1s one o/ the 6rst Dniversities to do this- the!1re
/or&in& ahead and creatin& a ne# academic discipline here. 9t has 0een o0vious
to me at least /rom the ver! 0e&innin& o/ m! involvement in Bitcoin that this is a
ver! important invention in Computer ?cience and its Computer ?cience
primitive a s!stem /or achievin& (0:06:060 !idn"t hear fe# #ords$ that has
man!- man! 0road applications. Ho#ever it also has man! important
implications in economics- 0usiness- 6nance and la# so 9 love the /act that this is
a cross-discipline course as #ell as that it1s 0ein& ta$en ver! seriousl! as an
academic su02ect /or computer science students.
ABL:ho is a course li$e this /or;
ABL:9t1s a ver! approacha0le and accessi0le course- it1s not 2ust /or Computer
?cience students 0ut o0viousl! there are &oin& to 0e parts o/ the master1s
de&ree that are &oin& to 0e heavil! /ocused on so/t#are development /or
cr!ptocurrencies- al&orithms and usin& the consensus al&orithm s!stem. But
those are elective- the M==C itsel/ is introductor!- it1s ver! open and accessi0le
to all and it allo#s people to &et a 0road understand over a period o/ +)#ee$s
and +) sessions o/ #hat cr!ptocurrencies are and ho# the! a8ect these various
areas and then introduces all these various areas. Jrom that point a student #ho
is interested in a computer science discipline can ta$e a course heavil! loaded on
so/t#are en&ineerin& elective #hereas a student #ho is more interested /or
e5ample in 0usiness and 6nance ma! ta$e the same master1s de&ree #hich is
heavil! loaded #ith electives in 0usiness and 6nance.
ABL:The course is /ree- ho# lon& does it last; <ou said there is another lecture on
Monda!- this pro0a0l! isn1t &oin& to air /or another t#o #ee$s or so.
ABL:The 6rst si5 #ee$s have alread! happened so #e1re hal/ #a! throu&h the
course ri&ht no#- 0ut all the materials are availa0le online and as soon as the
6rst iteration o/ the M==C is 6nished 9 e5pect #e1re &oin& to runnin& another
iteration #ith improvements and $eep runnin& that course. People can si&n up
no# and catch up on previous material via video and the! can then continue
/ollo#in& the course- si&n up /or the ne5t iteration or do a 0it o/ 0oth. 9t1s a ver!
3e5i0le course. Li$e man! other M==Cs it1s desi&ned /or pro/essionals #ho man!
not have the time to attend all o/ the sessions and ma! not have time to learn in
a classroom t!pe environment 0ut in this /ormat the! can or&anise this around
their schedule.
ABL:That sounds a#esome- it1s reall! cool that !ou1re teachin& that. The rumour
&oin& around is that Bitcoin is over and that it1s the /ault o/ minin&- that #e have
destro!ed ourselves- #e have destro!ed it all- #hat /ools #e #ere. There has
0een a lot o/ concern a0out .+4 attac$s as one o/ the lar&er pools &hash.io has
approached and surpassed the .+4 mar$. That is sort o/ a ma&ic num0er in the
#orld o/ Bitcoin- since it1s a consensus 0ased realit!- the perception is that i/ !ou
can control the ma2orit! o/ the participants then !ou can control the consensus
and 0asicall! do #hat !ou #ant.
9 thin$ it1s 0ein& a little 0it overpla!ed in the #a! 91m seein& people tal$ a0out it-
Andreas #e have had this conversation in the past. 9 #ant to chat to !ou a0out
.+4 attac$s.
ABL:Hold on one second- let me 2ust pull out the #heel0arro# o/ Bitcoin
o0ituaries /rom m! stora&e unit here and add one more to the pile. This is the
/amiliar c!cle o/ sensationalism and Bitcoin is dead and Bitcoin is not dead. B!
the #a! 9 thin$ Bitcoinisdead.com is still up- ma!0e 9 can re&ister the domain
0itcoinisunder.+4attac$.com and redirect it to is0icoindead.com and it #ill 2ust
sa! KnoL. 9s Bitcoin under a .+4 attac$- no- this is over0lo#n.
ABL:The possi0ilit! is there no#- that1s the thin& and it1s a possi0ilit!.
ABL:The possi0ilit! o/ 0ein& hit 0! an asteroid is there too 0ut there is a
di8erence 0et#een possi0ilit! and pro0a0ilit!. BBitcoin &oin& under aC .+4 attac$
is a possi0ilit! 0ut it1s a ver! lo# pro0a0ilit! that it #ill happen. 9t1s a hi&hl!
impro0a0le event &iven the incentives- the structure and possi0le 0ene6ts o/
doin& this and the ver! eas! to appl! counter measures a&ainst such an
eventualit!. 9 thin$ people &rasped the .*4 num0er and see it as an ominous
#arnin& as a si&n o/ the end o/ Bitcoin #hich is ridiculous 0ecause there is a ver!
0i& di8erence 0et#een- 6rst o/ all - achievin& .*4 o/ the hashin& po#er in one
pool versus controllin& .*4 o/ the hashin& po#er versus even more so- that .*4
o/ hashin& po#er 0ein& in the hands o/ dishonest miners #ho control it /ull! and
then launchin& a .+4 attac$ #hich is an ultimate e5treme.
hat #e1ve seen is the 6rst o/ those- #e have seen a pool 0rie3! reach .*4 o/
the hashin& po#er- 0ut it doesn1t mean the! control all o/ that hashin& po#er. 9t
also doesn1t mean that the!1re dishonest and it certainl! doesn1t mean that
the!1re launchin& a .+4 attac$. :ven i/ there had 0een a .+4 attac$ a&ainst
Bitcoin- 9 dispute the idea that it #ould have 0een the end o/ Bitcoin. 9 thin$ it
mi&ht have 0een a serious crisis in con6dence- it mi&ht have a8ected the price in
short-term. 9t ma! have led to chan&es in the code and counter measures- then
Bitcoin #ould 0e 0ac$ even i/ there #as a .+4 attac$.
hat #e have here is nothin& o/ the sort- #hat #e have here is a pool 0rie3!
reachin& .*4 o/ the hashin& po#er throu&h a collection o/ the minin& po#er o/
man! miners.
ABL:There are lots o/ di8erent #a!s !ou mentioned here that #e can 6nd
ourselves in a situation #here #e have this t!pe o/ crisis. 9t could 0e 0ecause it1s
a pool that has a lar&e amount o/ minin& po#er in it 0ecause it ma$es sense /or
minin& po#er to com0ine itsel/ into the lar&est pool as it means !ou 3atten out
the variance in terms o/ ho# man! Bitcoins !ou1re a0le to &enerate as !ou1re
hittin& more 0loc$s 0ut &ettin& less o/ each one.
That is in itsel/ a much less dan&erous thin&- than i/ there #as a sin&le 0ad actor
out there that had .*4 o/ the hashin& po#er in a #arehouse /ull o/ A?9Cs #ho
had the intention o/ doin& somethin& malicious. ith a pool as soon as someone
realises somethin& li$e this is &oin& on all the people #ho aren1t 0ad actors-
#ho are 2ust in the pool 0ecause it1s the most pro6ta0le place /or them to 0e-
the! #ill 2ump out and in practice 9 thin$ #e have seen this a couple o/ times. 9t1s
reall! interestin& ho# #e do hover around a hi&h ,*4 num0er.
ABL:As !ou said 0ecause there are economic incentives that encoura&e people to
participate in pools that are success/ul- that success leads to some de&ree o/
centrali7ation 0ut this is not centrali7ation o/ control- this is centrali7ation o/ the
pool. This doesn1t mean that the pool has control over the destin! o/ the miners
or ho# that hashin& po#er is used- the! onl! have that 0rie3! as lon& as the!
are supportin& the &oals o/ the miners that are economicall! via0le. 9/ the! at
an! time too$ advanta&e o/ that to do an!thin& ne/arious it #ould immediatel!
contravene the incentives o/ these miners and the! #ould a0andon the pool.
hat #e1ve seen is even the appearance o/ ris$ has led to miners leavin& the
pool and as a result- i/ 91m loo$in& at the stats correctl!- &hash.io is around M'4.
The point is that people are con/used #hat !ou can do i/ !ou launch an attac$
and this is nothin& to do #ith an attac$. <es the centrali7ation o/ A?9C minin& is a
pro0lem 0ut it1s not a lon&-term pro0lem. 9t1s normall! a short-term pro0lem that
occurs in c!cles and #e have seen this c!cle happen 0e/ore- and it1s usuall!
resolved /airl! Auic$l! 0! mar$et /orces. @hash #as one o/ the 6rst or&anisations
to centrali7e 0! creatin& ver! lar&e hashin& /arms o/ their o#n and o8erin& them
to shareholders and ma$in& it ver! eas! to 0u! a share in a minin& that #as ver!
lar&e- it #as one o/ the 6rst success/ul minin& /arms.
hen !ou are one o/ the 6rst success/ul pro/essional minin& /arms !ou &et some
advanta&es o/ 0ein& 6rst to the &ame 0ut it also attracts other entrance into the
mar$et. e1re seein& a lot o/ other 0i& pla!ers &earin& up to replicate that model
#hich means over time #e1re &oin& to see other minin& pools also o8er
pro/essional minin& /arms and eas!-to-use pools that can achieve Auite a 0it o/
hashin& po#er. This #ill lead to another massive increase in the total hashin&
po#er o/ the net#or$. The 0i&&er the hashin& po#er o/ the net#or$- the less
possi0le it is to shi/t it #ith an! sin&le pla!er and even thou&h &hash.io pool has
that $ind o/ percenta&e- that1s not all the /arm. The minin& /arm that &hash.io
actuall! controls creates an econom! o/ s$ill that attracts a lot o/ other miners
#ho are point their minin& ri&s to the pool- supportin& it and ta$in& it even
/urther.
9/ the! all the miners a0andoned &hash.io !ou #ould see that the! have a lot less
control o/ the po#er- there is a 0i& di8erence 0et#een havin& the hashin& po#er
and actuall! usin& it /or evil. 91m not sa!in& #e should trust &hash.io- 91m sa!in&
#e should #atch ver! care/ull! 0ut even i/ there #as a .+4 attac$ 9 don1t thin$
that #ould 0e the end o/ Bitcoin and #e1re no#here near that situation.
ABL:Let1s assume that #e are near the situation- even thou&h !ou1re sa!in& it1s
incredi0l! unli$el! the realit! is- is that it1s technicall! possi0le no# #hen
previousl! it #asn1t. 9t #as possi0le to tr! a ,*4 attac$ #hich is o/ course a lot
more diFcult 0ut still !ou can still plausi0l! do it usin& thin&s li$e sel6sh minin&
and other techniAues #e have tal$in& a0out in the past. hat could happen-
#hat is the #orst-case scenario here i/ &hash.io does have the a0ilit! and
&hash.io and their miners don1t care a0out the incentives; (The miners don1t
leave). Then 9 send !ou some Bitcoin Andreas- #hat happens to that- does
an!thin& happen;
ABL:9t1s important to realise e5actl! #hat it can do and #hat it can1t do 0ecause 9
thin$ the part o/ the reason there is all this panic people don1t understand the
repercussions o/ a .+4 attac$. Let1s loo$ at the technical repercussions- 6rst o/
all a .+4 attac$ doesn1t &ive !ou the a0ilit! to spend other peoples Bitcoin. A
.+4 attac$ doesn1t &ive !ou the a0ilit! to redirect Bitcoin to another recipient- it
doesn1t &ive !ou the a0ilit! to steal an!one1s Bitcoin. A .+4 attac$ allo#s the
pool operator to re-#rite recent histor! 0! essentiall! orphanin& a num0er o/
0loc$s that are on the 0loc$chain as recorded. This means that #ith enou&h
hashin& po#er a pool operator or a lar&e coalition o/ miners that have a .+4
attac$ can roll 0ac$ time t#o or three 0loc$s- ma!0e even /our or 6ve 0loc$s and
then race a&ainst the rest o/ the hashin& po#er to recalculate those /our or 6ve
0loc$s creatin& an alternate chain. =nce the! #in that race 0! minin& /our or 6ve
0loc$s in a ro# and creatin& a lon&er chain the! end up re-conver&in& the
net#or$ around their ne# chain and orphanin& the previous three or /our 0loc$s
that the net#or$ thou&ht #ere con6rmed. The! create a /or$.
?o essentiall! three or /our 0loc$s that ever!0od! thou&ht #ere con6rmed
suddenl! &et orphaned and replaced 0! di8erent 0loc$s that e5tend the
Kancestor 0loc$L- the 0loc$ that1s /our 0loc$s 0ac$ and e5tend it #ith a ne#
chain #ith three or /our ne# 0loc$s on top. The Auestion is #hat transactions are
in these ne# 0loc$s- i/ it1s e5actl! the same transactions- nothin& chan&es. The
ris$ here is in orphanin& the old 0loc$s the! can introduce transactions that
contradict transactions in the previous three 0loc$s onl! i/ the! (o#n%
0:1&:'(() those.
ABL:9/ a .+4 attac$ happens- durin& those si5 0loc$s that are &oin& to 0e
replaced and orphaned as !ou1ve said. 9 don1t do an!thin& #ith m! Bitcoin- this
doesn1t a8ect me in an!#a! and it1s impossi0le /or it to a8ect me- ri&ht;
ABL:<es- that1s correct.
ABL:=N- i/ 9 ma$e a transaction- i/ 9 send Bitcoin /rom me to !ou the #orst thin&
that can happen is that the transaction &ets cancelled- ri&ht;
A.A <es.
ABL:9/ it1s cancelled- the! don1t have m! $e!s and can1t retar&et it. The
transaction doesn1t happen 0ecause it #as thro#n out #ith those 0loc$s.
ABL:hich means that- i/ in the meantime- 9 shipped !ou a product 0ecause o/
the Bitcoin !ou sent me and 9 assumed that a/ter three or /our 0loc$s that #ere
con6rmed 9 shipped the product to !ou. 91m &oin& to 0e out o/ a product that 9
sent !ou and 91m &oin& to 0e prett! pissed o8.
ABL:9/ #e1re onl! tal$in& a0out 6ve or si5 0loc$s assumin& #e &et the cra7!
,*minute Bitcoin 0loc$. 9t #ill ta$e a couple o/ hours so most ph!sical products
#on1t 0e shipped in that time.
ABL:Neep in mind that /or in order /or this to happen durin& this period o/ time-
B!ou #ould haveC a ver! o0vious lon& /or$. Three 0loc$ /or$s don1t happen- the!
simpl! don1t happen. 9/ suddenl! !ou sa# a pool startin& to recalculate three
0loc$s 0ac$- it #ould have alarms 0ells rin&in& ever!#here. 9/ that created a /or$
#ith a (resend% 0:20:21() 0et#een .*4 o/ the pool po#er- tr!in& to e5tend
that chain #hilst the other ,'4 - or #hatever is tr!in& to e5tend the old chain.
Eurin& that diver&ence o/ three 0loc$s- alarm 0ells are &oin& to 0e rin&in&
ever!#here.
The last time there #as a three or /our 0loc$ diver&ence #hich #as in April )*+M
due to a 0u& in the code o/ *.O version o/ Bitcoin- 9 thin$ it #as around the three
or /our 0loc$ level that the emer&enc! 0roadcast s!stem #as activated and
merchants #ere told to stop acceptin& transactions. There is in /act a parameter
in the Bitcoin core client that #ill noti/! !ou i/ it sees a chain diver&ence more
than a certain num0er o/ 0loc$s- !ou can- /or e5ample to set it to email !ou i/
there is more than a t#o or three 0loc$ diver&ence. B9t1sC more li$el! that a .+4
attac$ #ould tr! to orphan a sin&le 0loc$ and then do it more o/ten than normal
tr!in& to pla! shenani&ans in a sin&le 0loc$ rather than tr!in& to do a massive
three or /our 0loc$ chain. But ho# man! merchants #ould ship at one 0loc$
con6rmation and don1t notice that it has 0een orphaned- ho# man! merchants
actuall! ship #ithin +* minutes to an hour;
ABL:9t1s interestin& 0ecause even #ith di&ital items- 9 $no# more merchants that
distri0ute di&ital items 0ased on 7ero con6rmations- than 0ased on one. 9/ !ou1re
&oin& to #ait /or con6rmations most people tend to #ait /or a couple 0ut /or
di&ital items 0ecause there is no per item cost a lot o/ the times it1s easier to sa!
K=$- 9 see the mone! is comin& in B91ll &ive the productCL. 9t seems li$e the attac$
vectors /or this are prett! limited.
ABL:The main attac$ vector /or this is to do a #ithdra#al o/ Bitcoin /rom an
e5chan&e and then to invalidate the #ithdra#al.
ABL:=$- a&ain !ou1re not tal$in& a0out some random person- !ou1re tal$in&
a0out the pool o#ner the person #ho is tar&etin& #hat the pool is doin&.
The!1re the onl! person #ho could actuall! pull somethin& li$e that o8- even i/
!ou1re a miner #ho is )*4 o/ it- 0ecause !ou1re &ettin& #or$ /rom the pool. The
pool is #hat is actuall! controllin& it- ri&ht;
ABL:>i&ht- the #a! the pool #or$s is that the! #ill send a 0loc$ template (as it1s
called)- #hich B&ives the instructionsC to start 0uildin& on top o/ this 0loc$- here is
the coin 0ase !ou should use /or it and here is the pa!-out address /or the pool.
Then each miner #ould put their o#n transactions in 0ased on #hat the!1ve
seen. ?o the pool o#ner could roll0ac$ that and instead o/ 0uildin& o8 o/ the
latest 0loc$- the! could 0uild one 0loc$ 0ehind /orcin& one o/ the e5istin& 0loc$s
that has 0een acceptin& 0roadl! 0! consensus to 0e orphaned #hen it1s
unnecessar!.
9 0elieve that- certainl! in the case o/ di&ital items that ma! 0e a concern. ?o i/
&hash #ants to use dou0le-spend transactions to 0u! (ustin Bie0er sin&les- #hich
mi&ht 0e a stron& motivation /or a .+4 attac$.
ABL:Barrin& that- there isn1t too man! thin&s !ou can do #ith it
ABL:There are- there is one more scenario. The other scenario is to use this to
invo$e a denial o/ service attac$ #hich means !ou purposel! invalidate 0loc$s
that are mined 0! other pools- essentiall! shuttin& other pools out o/ the mar$et.
That hostile ta$eoverIa&&ressive action a&ainst the other pools means that the
other pools aren1t a0le to mine 0loc$s. ?o sa! that another pool operator sees
another pool success/ull! minin& a 0loc$ #ith a minorit! po#er- Ban attac$erC
could purposel! retar&et the minin& to a previous 0loc$ to orphan it. There/ore
essentiall! Bo0tainin&C +**4 o/ all 0loc$s mined 0! that one pool.
ABL:=$- so that attac$ vector is speci6call! a&ainst other minin& pools. 9t seems
that there are t#o primar! thin&s that can 0e done #ith a success/ul malicious
.+4 attac$- one is that !ou &o to an e5chan&e and tr! to dou0le-spend and
ABL:And the other-side #ould 0e a denial o/ service attac$ a&ainst a pool- or a
denial o/ service attac$ a&ainst a speci6c recipients transactions. Jor e5ample
!ou could sa! Kan!time 9 see a transaction &oin& to a speci6c part!- 91m &oin& to
orphan the 0loc$ that the transaction is in- in order to invalidate it hurtin& a
speci6c recipient 0! ma$in& it impossi0le /or them to receive an! Bitcoin
0ecause an!time the! tr! to receive Bitcoin the 0loc$ the transaction is in &ets
orphaned. But a&ain it is ver! diFcult to do this in a su0tle #a! /or t#o reasons-
the 6rst 0ein& 0ecause ever!0od! is #atchin& ver! care/ull! especiall! as pools
&et closer to .+4 their activit! is scrutini7ed ver! care/ull!. ?econdl! 0ecause i/
!ou1re tr!in& to do some cartel action li$e this there #ould 0e a&&rieved parties
#ho #ould 0e o0viousl! a8ected and #ould loudl! complain. This is not
somethin& !ou can do on a su0tle 0asis and as soon as that happened #e #ould
see counter-measures implemented in the net#or$.
ABL:e have actuall! had this conversation #ith @avin Andresen 0e/ore- 9 thin$
there #as a comment /rom ma!0e si5 months 0ac$ 9 can1t remem0er the
conte5t 0ut it #as somethin& li$e this: K9/ an! pool tries to pull o8 somethin&
li$e this- #e1re &oin& to 0asicall! chan&e the rules so that !ou can1t do it
an!moreL. At the time #e #ere li$e- that1s a #eird thin& to sa!. But it seems li$e
it1s al#a!s a possi0ilit! since this stu8 is so transparent. 9/ this reall! is serious
enou&h to ta$e do#n Bitcoin- then the incentive is not /or 2ust people #ho are
doin& the attac$- the incentive is hu&e /or people #ho aren1t doin& the attac$ to
6nd some #a! to stop it.
9t1s interestin& 0ecause ever! time #e &et close to one o/ these pressure points
o/ these ma&ic num0ers- the communit! /rea$s out and it1s &reat 0ecause this is
e5actl! #h! thin&s &et 65ed 0ecause people notice and are upset a0out it. This is
e5actl! #h! thin&s don1t &et 65ed in the real #orld.
ABL:Here1s the thin&- 91m not #orried a0out the possi0ilit! o/ a .+4 attac$
0ecause 9 thin$ it1s hi&hl! unli$el!- it &oes a&ainst the incentive o/ miners
especiall! the ones #ho are comin& close to havin& that $ind o/ hashin& po#er. 9t
ma$es no sense- it delivers ver! little advanta&e /or a ver! short period o/ time
/or a pla!er #ho is immediatel! noticed and #ill attract counter-measures as #ell
as the scorn o/ the communit!.
That doesn1t mean that 9 don1t thin$ that concentration o/ minin&- hashin& po#er
in a sin&le pla!er or under control o/ a sin&le pool is a &ood thin&. =r that miners
shouldn1t leave &hash and &o to p)pool- the peer to peer pool that doesn1t have
an operator- it1s purel! peer to peer. 9 thin$ that is a &ood ans#er- 9 thin$ that
miners should purpose/ull! dilute the hashin& po#er o/ the leadin& pool at all
times in order to $eep it in its place. To $eep it /rom amassin& too much hashin&
po#er. :ven i/ it1s not immediatel! used in an attac$- it creates a possi0ilit! /or
shenani&ans and creates a reputation ris$ as #ell as ma$in& people #orried. Jor
all o/ those reasons it1s Bin the minersC interest to move to a pool that has less
hashin& po#er to eAuali7e thin&s.
That1s a ver! di8erent statement /rom K91m #orried that the .+4 attac$ is
imminent- li$el! or pro0a0leL. 9 thin$ it1s hi&hl! impro0a0le and a complete #aste
o/ time 0ecause even i/ it #as done /or malicious purposes 0! a malicious actor
there are pro0a0l! easier #a!s to do that. A&ain it #ould /ail and lead to chan&es
in the protocol- Bitcoin #ould 0ecome more ro0ust and Bitcoin #ould 0ounce
0ac$ once this pro0lem is 65ed. e #ould then put one more o0ituar! on the pile
that #e can lau&h a0out later- 9 reall! don1t thin$ this is #hat is &oin& to dama&e
Bitcoin. 9 could 0e #ron&- 9 could 0e entirel! #ron& ma!0e 9 missed somethin&
reall! important 0ut this is 2ust m! personal opinion. 9 thin$ it1s a hi&hl!
theoretical attac$- 9 thin$ it1s reall! interestin& to loo$ at the &ame (*:)':.).,
didn1t hear #ord) implications and to tr! and ma$e the net#or$ more ro0ust. 9t1s
interestin& to loo$ at the mar$et d!namics 0ehind this- 9 thin$ the mar$et c!cle
#ill repeat and the leadin& pool #ill not 0e the leadin& pool /or ver! lon&- and
that1s 6ne.
ABL:e tried to &et Peter Todd on toda!1s sho# to have a conversation a0out
this- 0ecause amon& other thin&s- #hat 9 hope people ta$e a#a! /rom this is that
the #a! Bitcoin is set-up ri&ht no# #here #e pa! a sin&le 0loc$ re#ard to a
sin&le individual #hich has led to all o/ these pools. e don1t see in practice
people havin& &i&antic /arms #ith the intention o/ ta$in& over the Bitcoin
(e)pire% 0:2*:2*&) 0! themselves. But #e do see this possi0le 0! the #a!
that pools are set-up- p)pool is a solution 0ut it1s a less eFcient solution /or a
variet! o/ reasons. The least o/ #hich 0ein& !ou have to run !our o#n node
meanin& !ou have to have a /ull cop! o/ the Bitcoin 0loc$chain #hereas #ith a
pool !ou don1t- there is more to do B#hen usin& p)pool than there is usin&
normal poolsC.
hat 91d hope to see come /rom this- is more attention to 0e paid to tree chains
0ecause tree chains is the 6rst protocol su&&estion 9 have seen that reall! loo$s
as thou&h it can 0rin& solo minin& 0ac$ #ithout /undamentall! reinventin& the
#heel or as$in& people to 0u! ne# hard#are. That1s the thin& that 9 hope- that
#e can use this as an opportunit! to thin$ a0out #hat the incentives are pushin&
people to do and to hope/ull!- ma!0e- tr!in& to chan&e the protocols so the
incentives are a little 0it 0etter.
ABL:9 thin$ it1s important to realise that tree chains are not the onl! #a! to solve
that- there are man! other recommendations such as usin& &host protocol as
another approach. There are proposals that involve splittin& the re#ard so that
the #innin& 0loc$ &ets a hi&h percenta&e o/ the re#ard 0ut an! orphaned 0loc$s
that have achieved the proo/ o/ #or$ al&orithm 0ut /or #hatever reason didn1t
propa&ate as /ast to also &et a percenta&e o/ the re#ard this is the &host
protocol. BThe &host protocolC model simpl! reali&ns the incentives in such a #a!
that it1s #orth minin& more /rom 0loc$s 0ecause !ou &et some re#ard #hich
ends up smoothin& out the variance in re#ard and lessenin& the need /or pools.
There are reall! t#o /orces in action here- one is the centrali7ation caused 0! the
densit! A?9Cs and rapid development o/ A?9C technolo&! that leads to some
centrali7ation in minin&- #hich is not necessaril! a 0ad thin&. Because the
alternative li$e #e have said 0e/ore- is 0otnet minin& so !ou have stri$e a
0alance 0et#een those t#o e5tremes. (ust this #ee$ #e sa# an article on Ars
Technica that tal$s a0out a hac$er #ho used the 6rm#are inside net#or$
attached stora&e devices to run script miners and compromise thousands o/
stora&e devices in corporate oFces- used them to mine Eo&ecoin and made
a0out PQ**-*** #orth o/ Eo&ecoin in 2ust a /e# da!s o/ minin&. That1s the ris$ o/
&oin& to CPD /riendl! minin&- the amount o/ CPD l!in& around that1s eas! to
compromise in &randpa and &randmas des$top and attached and em0edded
devices li$e routers- stora&e s!stems etc is immense. "ot onl! can !ou have
0otnet minin&- 0ut !ou can also have rent a .+4 attac$ #here !ou could rent a
massive 0otnet and use it to &ain a si&ni6cant percenta&e o/ the pool minin&.
Those are the ris$s a&ainst A?9C centrali7ation- so !ou have to loo$ at this as a
compromise as A?9Cs do provide some 0ene6ts.
The second thin& !ou have is centrali7ation 0ecause o/ the pool d!namic or the
pool economic incentives #hich is that i/ !ou mine alone- !ou1re pla!in& a lotter!
#here !ou #in rarel! and !ou lose a lot so !ou have to 0e in it /or the lon& &ame.
That1s a ver! diFcult #a! to amorti7e the costs or the investment that !ou have
in A?9C hard#are- so !ou1re ta$in& a ver! hu&e ris$ i/ !ou1re pla!in& that $ind o/
lotter! &ame. hereas i/ !ou mine as part o/ a pool and the 0i&&er the pool the
0etter then !ou1re &oin& to receive a smaller re#ard ever! time 0ut it1s &oin& to
0e more o/ a consistent re#ard so !ou can pa! 0ac$ !our hard#are investment.
This leads to the centrali7ation o/ pools.
These t#o issues have t#o di8erent sets o/ solutions 0ut at the moment 9 don1t
see the hu&e panic to start ma$in& chan&es to the protocol. 9 thin$ it1s important
to realise that a lot o/ the alternative proo/ o/ #or$ schemes and alternative
protocols that are 0ein& proposed are /undamentall! untested- #hereas Bitcoins
proo/ o/ #or$ has persisted /or 6ve !ears- has 0een e5tremel! success/ul at
resistin& attac$s and #hile #e1re tal$in& a0out these theoreticals it continues to
remain the most ro0ust and hi&hl! s$illed consensus al&orithm 0! several orders
o/ ma&nitude and the 0est proo/ o/ concept that #e1ve seen in this environment.
All the other contenders are &reat in theor! 0ut none o/ them have 0een tested
at this scale so #e don1t $no# ho# the!1re &oin& to #or$.
(Start of advertisements)
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Coin6re.c/ is a ne#er cr!ptocoin ne#s and commentar! site- Auotin& /rom their
pa&e: KCoin6re #as started 0ecause 9 &ot sic$ and tired /rom readin& revie#s on
sites that #ere /ull o/ advertisements- dishonest statements and ne#s that #ere
2ust posted to create lin$-0aitL. This is a ver! /amiliar ur&e /or me /ol$s and 9 #ish
Mi$e all the 0est over there- ta$in& a loo$ at the /ront pa&e 9 #as actuall!
surprised to see an article a0out a ),-hour Bitcoin radio station that #ill 0e
launchin& soon- o/ #hich 9 #as completel! una#are o/. "o# all 9 need to do is to
&et coin6re to move their site onto the LTB plat/orm- 2ust $iddin&R or am 9; "o
91m not.
=ur second sponsor /or episode +). is actuall! a donation sponsor- Brian Cohen
o/ 0ito/this.com has as$ed us to hi&hli&ht the Bitcoin /oundation. ?o let1s ta$e a
little time to chat- the mission o/ the Bitcoin /oundation is three /oldS standardi7e
Bitcoin- protect Bitcoin and promote Bitcoin. This means that in practice the! put
on occasional con/erences normall! inter/aced #ith &overnment 0odies #ho
misunderstand #hat !ou can or can1t do #ith Bitcoin and 0asicall! act li$e the
pu0lic /acin& voice /or those loo$in& /or ans#ers /rom an institution the! #ould
reco&ni7e as 0ein& le&itimate. ?a! /or e5ample i/ !ou trust a /oundation than !ou
trust the 9nternet- that1s not to sa! the /oundation per/orms a /unction that
couldn1t or isn1t 0ein& per/ormed else#here 0ut the! are doin& meanin&/ul #or$.
>ecentl! the! announced their si5th international chapter- put on the recent
Amsterdam con/erence #here Let1s Tal$ Bitcoin #as pleased to #in the most
in/ormative podcast a#ard 91m not actuall! sure i/ #e mentioned that on the
sho#. There is a lot more to it that 9 don1t have enou&h time to &et into here- i/
!ou #ould li$e to support their #or$ the cost o/ 0ecomin& a mem0er is P).
pa!a0le in o/ course Bitcoin. 9/ !ou #ould li$e to learn more visit them at
0itcoin/oundation.or&.
9/ !ou #ould li$e to use !our LTB coin to sponsor the Let1s Tal$ Bitcoin sho# and
have me spend a little time e5plainin& !our pro2ect on an upcomin& episode-
head over to letstal$0itcoin.com and select KsponsorL /rom the LTB coin re#ards
pro&ram menu. =nce a pro2ect #ins this it &ives me an e5cuse to learn a0out the
pro2ect and share m! thou&hts on it #ith !ou. =n the other hand !ou have no
editorial control #hat-so-ever 0ut then a&ain it1s not reall! an advertisement
0ecause o/ that so it1s almost certainl! more use/ul /or our listeners and i/ !ou1re
pro2ect is actuall! neat- 91m &oin& to sa! nice thin&s a0out it. :ither #a!- there is
no #or$ /or !ou to doin& it unli$e a standard advertisement spot #here !ou have
to &ive me a script.
An!thin& 9 don1t #ant to tal$ a0out #ill 0e re/unded- 0asicall! &am0lin&- adult
content and an!thin& that smells li$e a scam to me don1t as$ me to tal$ a0out
penn! auctions. Than$s /or pa!in& attention durin& the part o/ the sho# that
pa!s the 0ills.
(End of advertisements)
ABL:"o# the mad Bitcoins intervie# #ith %hou Ton&ed.
%hou Ton&ed: @ooooooooooood mornin& Bitcoins- this is mad Bitcoins live #ith
%H=DDD T="@:EEE. Ho#1re !ou &u!s doin&;T
Thomas Hunt: e1re doin& &ood man- 9 en2o!ed !our concert !esterda!.
%T: Than$ !ou- 91m &lad.
TH: <ou led in /or <TCrac$er. 9 don1t $no# i/ he #as read! /or it man- he &ot out
there and #as li$e K=AH- 91m /ollo#in& %hou Ton&ed- #hat is happenin&L.
%T: He did mention ho# much he en2o!ed it- 9 #as e5pectin& a 0i& sho# 9 &uess.
TH: 9 thin$ a lot o/ it #as !ou &u!s used !our videos as part o/ !our act that
0rou&ht it to a #hole other level the s!nchroni7ation.
%T: <ah- #e li$e to do that- !ou1ve noticed or i/ !ou1re a 0i& %hou Ton&ed /an #e
al#a!s put our #ords in our videos so !ou can understand e5actl! #hat #e1re
sa!in& 0ecause #e1re consciousl! tr!in& to spea$ a messa&e on ever! son&. 9/
!ou timeline our son&s- #hen #e #rote them- #hen #e pu0lished the son& on
<outu0e it1s relevant to some $ind o/ issue that #as &oin& on at that time. hen
Bitcoin shot up to )QQ last !ear- shot up to ), and hit the )*1s. e #ere in it
/rom t#o or three dollars so #hen it hit the t#enties #e #ere Kli$e oh m!
&oodness- this is itTL
?o Bitcoins 0ac$ came /rom that one- #hich is the :minem parod! that #e did.
This past !ear around Je0ruar! #hen the mt&o5 controvers! happened #e made
Bthe son&C K<ou 2ust &ot Mt.@o5edL the ?noop Eo&& parod! a0out mt&o5.
TH: <eah- Chris and 9 #ere 2ust tal$in& a0out the mt&o5 video and #hat #e said
#as that it1s &otten a lot more poi&nant since mt&o5 #ent do#n. At 6rst K<ou &ot
&o5edL #as used #hen there #as some E=? trou0les or the price drops 0ut no#
K&o5edL has a #hole ne# meanin& since the collapse happened.
%T: <eah- as terri0le as it sounds it1s somethin& #ith mt&o5 and all the cra7iness
i/ !ou1re an old time Bitcoiner and had issues #ith mt&o5. 9t #as somethin& that
honestl! needed to happen an!#a!- the /act that #e1ve survivin& throu&h them
crashin& and all the cra7iness that happened #ith it. 9- %hou Ton&ed- lost mone!
#ith that situation don1t thin$ that #e1re immune to an! o/ the e8ects o/ thin&s
that happen in the mar$et. e #ere %hou Ton&ed ori&inall!- that1s ho# #e &ot
the name. e #ere #ith Bitcoin /rom the 0e&innin&- #ith one o/ the earl! mar&in
tradin& sites. That1s ho# it all came to 0e- #e /eel the e8ects too don1t thin$
#e1re sittin& on our hi&h horse at all.
TH: That tra&ed! #as a slo#-motion one- 9 $no# a lot o/ people #ho #ere tr!in&
to #ithdra# Q months 0e/ore- U months 0e/ore. The! could not &et their mone!
out- even thou&h the! $ne# it #as &oin& do#n in slo# motion.
%T: <eah- and li$e 9 said- 9 thin$ in m! personal opinion Bno# that mt&o5 is &oneC
the mar$et has 0een a lot smoother. 9 $no# it1s not #here #e #ant it to 0e 0ut
the volatilit! has calmed do#n a 0it and i/ Bitcoin #as to crash- or &o do#n- that
#ould have 0een the time that it #ould have happened and the /act that #e1ve
overcome the Bcrash o/ mt&o5C and #e1re here no# #ith more 0i& companies
2oinin&. 9t helps me $no# that 91m in the ri&ht place that our communit! #ill
strive throu&h this.
TH: >emem0er #hat it used to sa! on their #e0site- Q*4 or ma!0e even O*4 o/
all Bitcoin traFc #ent throu&h mt&o5. "o# it1s &one and Bitcoin is still hereT
%T: >i&ht and #e1re still at PQ** a coin ri&ht no#. <ou have to remem0er that
(anuar! last !ear #e #ere at PM* a coin- so the /act that #e1re still at PQ** a coin
#e1re still in our stride even thou&h !ou have the speculators that sa# it &o to
P+)** and it1s no# at PQ**. The! don1t $no# and it1s =$- #e #ant them to
#atch- #e #ant them to speculate on it and 91ll ma$e the mone! /rom it- so
HD:HD:HD:HD:.
TH: The #hole mt&o5 thin& never made an! sense to me- #hen 9 6rst /ound out it
stood /or KMa&ic the @atherin& online e5chan&eL 9 prett! made /un o/ that-
mercilessl! in m! sho#- as much as 9 could. 9 2ust had a 0ad /eelin& a0out it the
#hole time- 9 remem0er the 6rst time 9 lo&&ed in- it #as this reall! #ea$ PHP
application- it 2ust /elt cheap and 9 #as li$e KThis is the 0est tradin& #e0site
#e1ve &otT;L
%T: <eah- the! didn1t reall! have the plat/orm /or that and that $ind o/ volume
#hen #e started to &ain some traction and &ain some traFc. 9t #as 0ound to
happen and as an old timer 9 apolo&i7e i/ #e didn1t school !ou earlier to the later
commerce comin& into the &ame. 9t1s somethin& that !ou1ve &ot to learn- as old
timers #e $ne# it needed to happen and it #as 0etter that it happened and 91m
&lad that it1s &one. The /act that Bitcoin has an! value period- sho#s that #e1re
still standin& and still stron&.
TH: The more important thin& the! #ere technicall! doin& to the communit! #as
con/usin& the transaction mallea0ilit! issue- #e still don1t reall! $no# #hat #ent
on. Mar$ Narpeles- the missin& Bitcoins- the e5perts on the outside have said it1s
not transaction mallea0ilit! !ou did somethin& else #ron&. e don1t $no# !et-
#e1re &oin& to 6nd out- it1s a 0lac$ 0o5.
%T: "o industr! is immune to controvers! and to people 0ein& shad!- the /act
that #e cau&ht it earl! on- a&ain &oin& 0ac$ to Bitcoinica (one o/ the mar&in
tradin& sites)- #e too$ a 0i& hit- and %hou Ton&ed too$ a hu&e hit on that one.
But #e survived- #e1re still here. There has 0een a lot o/ di8erent controvers!
#ith Bitcoins- di8erent &overnments 0annin& it and ta$in& it 0ac$- ta$in& 0ac$
#hat the! said are no# implementin& and #antin& a piece the ins and outs and
all o/ that. The /act #e1re still here sho#s that the technolo&! spea$s /or itsel/
and it #ill never &o an!#here. BhetherC Bitcoin is PM or PM*** people #ill still
0e usin& it- it1s 2ust &oin& to ta$e time /or an!one to reall! learn it.
Ma!0e alon& the line pro&rammers can 6&ure out #a!s to tr! and ma$e it a little
more user /riendl! 0ut at the same time- people should 0e learnin&- !ou should
#ant to learn. :ver!thin& is computers no#- ne# technolo&! 0ein& 0uilt- i/ !ou1re
not Beducatin&C !oursel/ on ne# technolo&ies (then 9 don1t $no#)
TH: Teach !our /amil! and /riends too- 9 $no# 91m tired o/ removin& sp!#are- 91m
tired o/ settin& up people1s computers 0ut Bitcoin is a #hole ne# thin&. 91m
e5cited to setup people1s #allets- to &ive them a dollar- to sho# them ho#
Coin0ase #or$s or #hichever site !ou #ant to use.
9t1s e5citin&- it1s the /uture and it is individual adoption. e need to &et our
mothers- 0rothers and sisters into Bitcoin- #e need to 0e a0le to &et our
shoppin& online #ith this. (ust tr!in& Bitcoin out and havin& /un #ith it- it doesn1t
have to 0e a lar&e investment- 2ust tr! it out.
%T: A0solutel!- 9 did that. 9 have 0een a Bitcoin a0andoner- so to spea$- the last
couple o/ !ears. This last !ear 9 have li&htened up a little 0it- 9 thin$ 9 &ot a little
0urnt out. 9 thin$ 9 told ever!0od! #ho 9 needed to tell a0out it- the 6rst person
that schooled me on it- told me KThis is li$e &oo&le +* !ears 0e/ore it came out
and it1s 2ust &oin& to ta$e time to implementL. The person that told me this
technolo&! is ama7in& and #ill do ama7in& thin&s is- pro0a0l! on m! net#or$-
one o/ the smartest people 9 $no#. He1s a computer scientistIen&ineer #ho
dissected the protocol- loo$ed at the led&er and sa# that this is reall! &oin& to 0e
somethin&. 9t1s li$e a #ise man tellin& !ou to tr! it out.
e1ve 0een B#ith BitcoinC since it s#itched /rom minin& #ith !our CPD to minin&
#ith &raphics cards. 9 remem0er m! 0udd! callin& me and tellin& me KBro- 9 need
&raphics cards- please send me someL- he #as 0uildin& his o#n units himsel/
tr!in& to mine /or coins. A&ain this is #hen #e #ere at a /e# dollars a coin-
ever!0od! #as tr!in& to Bscream and tell ever!0od!C and the! do listen. But until
the! see it /or themselves- people #ould rather Bsee it 0ein& success/ul rather
than 0elievin& #ithout seein&C and then the! sa# it. hen #e pea$ed at P)QQ all
o/ a sudden people #ho didn1t #ant to listen to us- start callin&.
TH: 91ll tell !a- 91m one o/ those people. 9 $ne# a0out Bitcoin /rom the 0e&innin&-
thou&ht a0out 0u!in& 0ut never did 0ecause 9 didn1t read enou&h a0out it. Then
#hen it 6nall! 0ro$e throu&h- 9 had reall! missed the 0oat and 9 2ust tried to &et
into it as hard-core as 9 could 0! doin& the sho#- tal$in& a0out it as much as 9
could- tellin& ever!0od! 9 $no#.
<ou &u!s started out #ith minin& and investin&- ho# did !ou &et into Bitcoin and
music;
e started out #ith minin& and a lot o/ people seemed to 0u! minin& cards
instead o/ 2ust 0u!in& the Bitcoin and a lot o/ people seem to re&ret this. e
have 0ou&ht a /e# miners in the last !ear or so and #e should have 0ou&ht the
BitcoinsT
%T: <eah- i/ !ou #ere 0u!in& miners last !ear- it #as $ind o/ too late to 0u!
miners honestl!. e #ere luc$! to ta$e advanta&e o/ the 6rst couple o/ 0atches
o/ A?9C miners that came out 0ut those miners toda! are prett! much 2ust pa!in&
/or the electricit! ri&ht no#. But to &et 0ac$ to #hat !ou #ere as$in&- #e started
minin& and alon& #ith minin& #e traded- %hou Ton&ed is t#o people. 91m the
artist- the #riter and the musician- m! 0udd! does the videos and is the 0rains
0ehind Bitcoin- he1s the &u! #ho schooled me. He1s m! splinter to !ou Teena&e
Mutant "in2a Turtles lovers- he is m! Mr Mi!a&i to !ou $arate $id lovers and li$e 9
said he1s the smartest &u! 9 $no#.
9 started learnin& the s$ill o/ tradin& itsel/ #ith him- 0ac$ #hen #e #ere usin&
Bitcoinica and mt&o5. 9/ an!0od! $no#s a0out tradin&- !ou1re #atchin& the
mar$ets ),IO and 0ac$ then the volatilit! #as cra7! even in these small num0ers
so !ou1re constantl! #atchin& the mar$et all da! and all ni&ht. 9 have t#o
monitors up and loo$in& at the &raphs- trends etc. To loosen up the time B#e
pla!ed musicC- #e1re all musicians 91m a music composition ma2or. 9t started
#ith 2ust the t#o o/ us han&in& around- listenin& to music- around the time #hen
0ein& %hou Ton&ed &ot coined as 0ein& an actual term #e started usin& it a lot.
9 don1t $no# i/ #e coined the term or #ho actuall! coin the term 0ut 9 $no# that
#e too$ it on earl! #hen #e #ere part o/ the poolInet#or$ o/ people that #as
usin& the term. e /elt li$e #e had ri&hts to ta$e on the term and do somethin&
#ith it. Ho# it started #as #e didn1t ta$e on the name o/ %hou Ton&ed #e 2ust
put out t#o son&s. The 6rst son& #as a0out 0ein& %hou Ton&ed and a0out not
havin& enou&h mone! to 0ac$ up on !our price that !ou 0ou&ht in at- &ettin&
liAuidated and ho# that happens- i/ !ou 2ust &ot %hou Ton&ed.
TH: ?o sin&in& a0out e5actl! #hat #as happenin& to !ou &u!s.
%T: <eah #e #ere sin&in& a0out e5actl! #hat happened to us- 0ecause a&ain
#e1re 2ust &oo/0all computerImusician &ee$s. ith that 9 started pla!in& around- 9
too$ a re&&ae son& /rom ?ister "anc! called BAM BAM- 9 too$ it and turned it into
K<ou &ot %hou Ton&edL. 9 too$ a son& 0! Laur!n Hill called Lost =nes and turned
it into Lost /unds- #here !ou lost !our /unds 0! &ettin& %hou Ton&ed and the
communit! loved itT 9 had no idea it #as &oin& to turn into all o/ this- #e 2ust put
some son&s out and the communit! loved it and #anted us to do more- so ever!
couple o/ months #e #ould put another one out #ith an!thin& relevant in it.
?ome people #ill tell !ou online- i/ !ou #ant to $no# a0out Bitcoin 2ust listen to
%hou Ton&ed son&s /rom the 0e&innin& to the end and it #ill $ind o/ school !ou in
a /un #a! a0out Bitcoin.
TH: 9 thin$ 91ve done that- 9 #ent 0ac$ and #atched the son&s in order and
de6nitel! #hen !ou &et to KHoldin&L (a parod! o/ Bill! (oel The lon&est time)
!our ideas have chan&ed. 9nstead o/ tal$in& a0out tradin& !ou1re then tal$in&
a0out hope.
%T: >i&ht- that #as the other thin&. 9t chan&ed /rom havin& tradin& in the
0e&innin& 0ut then #e lost coins #e &ot %hou Ton&ed Auite a /e# times. The
ne5t time 9 have a chance to invest 9 #ant to 2ust hope- 9 2ust #anted to hold on
and 9 $ne# a&ain that 9 didn1t #ant to lose the coin. 9 $ne# the technolo&! #as
&oin& to 0e there so 9 didn1t &ive up #hen 9 &ot %hou Ton&ed. Eon1t &ive up on
this technolo&! 0ecause this technolo&! is &oin& to 0e unstoppa0le #ithin the
ne5t 6ve !ears- !ou 2ust have to 0e patient. 91m learnin& patience m!sel/ 0ut 9
$ne# 9 didn1t #ant to lose on the technolo&! and 9 didn1t #ant to miss out i/
Bitcoin did s$!-roc$et so the minute 9 had a chance to 2ump into Bitcoin- 9 2umped
in a&ain. But !es m! vie#s are a little di8erent and /rom #hen put out those
tradin& son&s #e &ained a /an 0ase so #e #anted to spea$- #e #anted to
e5pand o8 o/ that- to have /un #ith it.
TH: ell !ou1re helpin& &ro# the Bitcoin throu&h the music- a lot o/ people that
aren1t into it mi&ht hear the Bson&s and then chec$ Bitcoin out- so it1s a ne# #a!
to spread the #ord.C
%T: A0solutel! 9 thin$ that music is the 0est #a! o/ passin& them messa&e on- 9
en2o! doin& it and the communit! has accepted us and loved us- it 2ust ma$es
me #ant to do more- to put more music out. 91ve spo$en to a couple o/ people in
the communit! and #e1re #antin& to put to&ether a Bitcoin music /estival-
possi0l! even annuall!. 9/ #e can do t#o a !ear it #ould 0e cool- 0ut even i/ #e
had it once a !ear and tried #ithin the ne5t si5 months to &et the 6rst annual
/estival out /or the !ear- 9 thin$ it #ould 0e reall! cool. 9t #ould 0e the same $ind
o/ thin& as the conventions #here !ou &et some vendors- !ou &et some people
sellin& Bitcoins and !ou1d have the music that $eeps that $eeps the ener&! up
and &oin&. e1ve &ot a /e# musicians up alread! in the industr!: Tatiana- m!sel/-
<TCrac$er #ho per/ormed #ith me last ni&ht. ?hout out to <TCrac$er he1s
ama7in&- his sho# is &reat- 91m reall! &lad 9 &ot the chance to hear him live. 9 #as
a /an 0e/ore 0ut never reall! listened- and 0ein& here and &ettin& to listen to
him- he1s a reall! smart dude.
TH: <ou &u!s also in3uenced him 0ecause he put his #ords up on the a/ter !ou
&u!s did the Bunintelli&i0le %T lau&hs over TH Kson& on the street;LC. Jrom the
son&s #here he didn1t have the #ords- 9 #as #a! more into the #ord son&s. 9 #as
readin& them and seein& the Arrested Eevelopment re/erences o/ the sho#- the
?no#Cra/t re/erences - all o/ his re/erences #ere so &ood and so transparent.
He1s so /ast #ith his #ords. 9t1s hard to trac$ the #ords i/ !ou don1t have them in
/ront o/ !ou i/ !ou1re not /amiliar #ith the son&. Li$e MC Chris ri&ht; That #as
0eauti/ul.
%T: Ee6nitel!- that #as one o/ the thin&s that #e #anted to do. 9 &re# up in the
U*1s so 91m a 0i& hip-hop head
TH: 9 #as &oin& to as$ !ou a0out in3uences li$e eird Al; =ther parodies;
%T: =h 9 &re# up on eird AlT
TH: <eahT
%T: 9 mean- 9 didn1t thin$ 9 #as &oin& to 0e a parod! #riter. But #hen 9 #as a $id-
eird Al #as m! ?mells Li$e Teen ?pirit #as one o/ m! /avourite al0ums o/ his
al0ums 0ut in3uences...9 #as 0orn in the '*1s 0ut 9 &re# up in the U*1s so some
o/ m! older hip-hop in3uences are Bunintelli&i0le >oc$ Hip;C >un EMC- Heav!
and the Bo!s- Beastie Bo!s. Then in the U*1s !ou had !our u Tan& Clan-
"otorious Bi&- Mos Ee/ !ou had a lot o/ conscious rappers. And so 0ecause
#e1re more hip-hop- i/ !ou1re not hip-hop it1s cool i/ !ou1re not hip-hop 0ut i/
!ou1re not a hip-hop head !ou don1t have the ear to 0e a0le to catch the lines so
much. 9t #as a real point that 9 #anted to ma$e 0ein& a0le to allo# people to
reall! see #hat #e1re sa!in&. e didn1t even $no# that #e #ere &oin& to 0e
per/ormin& these son&s. e 2ust started videos- #e1re 2ust doin& /un videos- and
that #as the one thin& that 9 #anted to ma$e sure that 9 did #as put the #ords
up. 9 thin$ that #as reall! cool. 9 thin$ that #as #hat made me a 0i& /an o/ <T last
ni&ht 0ecause 9 &ot to see #hat he #as sa!in& as #ell. Bein& a hip-hop head 9
could hear #hat he #as sa!in& 0ecause 91d listened to it 0e/ore.
TH: Bunintelli&i0le sound Aualit! poorC V<ou 2ust &ot Mt. @o5ed1 is a &reat one.
%T: 9 #rote that #hilst the @o5 thin& #as happenin&. 9 2ust happened to 0e
hearin& son& #ith ?noop the re&ular and it 2ust came to me. 9 #rote the son& in a
/e# hours and 9 #as alread! recordin& it 0! that ni&ht. 9 called m! 0udd! and 9
#as li$e Vuh 9 thin$ this is the ne5t video to put out1 and #e put it out. e put it
out around Je0ruar! and it #as a little cra7!. A&ain- to the ne#comers- 9 $no# it1s
a stru&&le #ith the #hole thin& #ith @o5. A lot o/ people lost a lot o/ mone! and 9
/elt as an old-timer- 0ein& in the &ame /or so lon&- 9 /elt 0ad. Ma!0e it #as m! 2o0
in a sense to school people.
TH: 91m not even that old into it and 9 even /eel a little 0ad. 9 made /un o/ it as
much as 9 could have 0ut 9 never said +**4 that !ou shouldn1t 0e in this thin&.
But !ou $no# !ou can1t tell the /uture and that1s #hat a lot o/ this is a0out the
losses and thin&s. A lot o/ people here have had losses- Bitcoin losses /rom
investin& in companies 0! sellin& !our Bitcoin too earl!. :ver!0od!1s &one up and
do#n and it1s a0out learnin& and a0out &ettin& older. Bitcoin ma$es !ou learn so
/ast.
%T: <eah- de6nitel!.
TH: 91ve alread! lost a couple o/ minor /ortunes and it1s 0een a !ear.
%T: People have lost. M! thin& #ould 0e BthatC #hen it comes to investin& and
#antin& to invest it all in one thin& 0elieve in the technolo&! and 0elieve in the
coin. 9/ !ou 0elieve in the compan! and !ou #ant to invest that1s 6ne 0ut at the
end o/ the da! 0elieve in the coin. M! advice no# is simple: #hat 9 tell an!0od!
no# is 2ust 6nd one. @et !oursel/ one Bitcoin- and /or&et a0out it. Eon1t even
thin$ a0out it. 9 can almost BpromiseC !ou that in 6ve !ears !ou #ill than$ %hou
Ton& /or tellin& !ou to 0u! that one Bitcoin i/ !ou saved it. Ee6nitel! &et involved
don1t invest all o/ !our mone! in an!thin&- and #hen !ou1re investin& and
tradin&- !ou1re &am0lin& in a sense. hen !ou1re tradin&- !ou1re &am0lin&. 9t1s
stoc$ 0ro$er &am0lin&. <ou1re &oin& to have some &ains and !ou1re &oin& to have
some losses. But e5pect losses- and hope /or &ains. Believe me- #e lost 9 can1t
tell !ou 91m a po$er pla!er too and 91m tellin& !ou- #e1ve lost. But 9 0elieve in
the coin and the technolo&!. 91m not &oin& to let it &et to me. Althou&h 91m sure
it1s &otten to some people #ho1ve put a lot o/ mone! into it. The! put their
mone! into @o5. 9t1s somethin& that made me /eel 0ad not 0ein& the one to
spread the messa&e on cold stora&e- puttin& it in !our o#n #allet.
"o0od!1s ever even rapped a0out mone!- period. e1re rappin& a0out a
particular mone!- and a&ain- 91d li$e to sa! a technolo&!. 9 don1t li$e to sa! that
it1s 2ust mone! 0ecause it1s not 2ust mone!. 9t1s the technolo&! that 9 thin$ is
&oin& to do ama7in& thin&s.
TH: 9t1s the #hole 0loc$. The Bloc$chain. 9t1s hu&e.
%T: <eah it is. e have an al0um #e1ll 0e releasin& Au&ust '
th
. e1re loo$in& at
Au&ust '
th
as 0ein& the al0um release at :W>- Charlie ?hrem1s 0ar in "e# <or$.
9t1s loo$in& at 0ein& around that date and 91m happ! a0out that. e1re loo$in& to
sell a collector1s edition $it alon& #ith that. e1re sellin& CEs- #e1ll have a
collector1s edition $it as #ell #here in this entire $it !ou1ll &et a t-shirt- a mas$- a
medallion- a si&ned CE- a D?B drive #ith all o/ our media -#e1ve 0een #ritten
a0out in <ahoo Jinance- Guart7- >euter1s has #ritten a0out us. e1re in the
dictionar!- all !ou have to do is loo$ up %hou Ton& and !ou have one o/ our 6rst
son&s. The!1re tal$in& a0out us. e1re in the Dr0an Eictionar!. e1ll &et all o/ our
videos on it- $eep an ear out /or that.
TH: That de6nitel! is the #ave o/ the /uture: a collector1s edition-t!pe pac$a&e-
somethin& /or the /ans. The music1s availa0le 0ut that pac$a&e !ou1re &oin& to
#ant to pa! /or- !ou1re &oin& to #ant to $eep. Alon& #ith !our one Bitcoin- !ou1re
&oin& to #ant to $eep !our %hou Ton& collector1s edition pac$a&e. Ma!0e a nice
shel/ /or it.
%T: Ma!0e 0u! t#o. Bu! t#o- open one up- have some /un- and !ou $eep one
sealed.
That1s #hat #e have in store- in all t!pes o/ music. There1s a ilson Phillips son&
that !ou1re &oin& to hear on the CE
TH: 9 li$e ilson Phillips. 9 haven1t &ot his al0um 0ut he has a lot o/ catch! tunes.
%T: <ou1re &oin& to hear some ilson Phillips- !ou1re &oin& to hear some 2oints.
TH: 9 never e5pected !ou to mention ilson.
Blau&hterC
%T: 9 am a ilson Phillips /an so #e1re to&ether on that. The!1re &oin& to tal$
a0out !ou- the!1re &oin& to tal$ a0out me too and then Bitcoins. All t!pes o/
music- an!thin& that comes to mind.
TH: 9 2ust realised #hat son& !ou1re &oin& to do. 9s it VHold on1;
%T: Blau&hterC
TH: Eo !ou &u!s have a #e0site;
%T: The #e0site currentl! ri&ht no# is ###.7houton&.me. e1re not sellin&
merchandise as o/ !et. hen Au&ust hits- the #e0site #ill 0e up and runnin& #ith
all the merchandise availa0le to 0u!. e #ould li$e to push acceptin& Bitcoin /or
the /un o/ it- to encoura&e people or /orce people to use Bitcoin- to purchase our
items and &et them more involved.
TH: 9t ma$es it more e5clusive - !ou could onl! &et it in Bitcoin.
%T: 9 #ould li$e to do that. e1d li$e to do that tr! and do some more
promotin&. e #ant to per/orm in the ne5t si5 months. 9 #ant to 0oo$ some more
sho#s so i/ !ou1re listenin& and an!0od! #ants to
TH: Bitcoin Chica&oT @et on itT These conventions need the spice- the! need
music somethin& interestin& and e5citin&- /or the $ids.
%T: Actuall! Charlie ?hrem as$ed me a0out Chica&o. 9 told him 9 #ould 0e #illin&
to do it so an!0od! on that committee #or$in& at the convention- #e1d love to
do a set over there. e could de6nitel! do that. Jor the last couple o/ !ears-
#e1ve 0een a little more m!sterious and have not reall! sho#n /ace so much.
That1s somethin& that #e #ant to chan&e a little 0it this !ear- ta$in& %hou Ton&
to the ne5t level. e #ant to 0e #ith the /ans. 9 #ant to 0e #ith 0itcoiners. 9 #ant
to 0e involved- 9 #ant !ou &u!s to see me at more o/ these events. 9 #ant to do
some more sho#s an!thin& that 9 can do to help promote 0ecause li$e #e said
0e/ore- music is an eas! #a! to send the messa&e out /or an! event- even i/ it1s
a small event- 91m #illin& and open to do an!thin& in the Bitcoin communit! that
the! #ould li$e me to do to help out. 91m all /or it.
TH: Have !ou ever thou&ht a0out pla!in& Bitcoin meetups; ?omethin& li$e that;
9t1s Auite small time.
%T: <eah- a0solutel!. 91m #or$in& on somethin& no#- 0oo$in& a sho# at the "e#
<or$ Cit! Bitcoin Center #here the! trade. 91m supposed to 0e spea$in&- then
#e1ll have the al0um release part! at :W>- then the ne5t couple o/ month1s #e1ll
plu& in some more sho#s. 9/ #e can &et this /estival &oin& 0e/ore the #eather
&ets 0ac$- that #ould 0e ama7in&. @ettin& an!0od! interestin& in puttin&
somethin& li$e that to&ether #e1re &oin& to 0e doin& that as #ell. %houton&.me
is the #e0site. Jollo# us on T#itter X%uTon&- de6nitel! shout us out. 9 love this
communit!- 9 love Bitcoin- 9 love ever!thin& a0out it. 9 thin$ this is our chance-
and our &eneration. 9 li$e to /eel that most 0itcoiners are the !oun&er
pro/essionals- late )*sIearl! M*sIlate M*sS our &eneration. This is our chance to
ma$e a di8erence in our #orld in &eneral.
TH: 9/ !ou1re loo$in& /or a cause- this is !our cause. And it1s a positive cause. A
lot previous causes #e #ere in #ere ne&ative causes this is positive- there1s
tonnes o/ space /or ever!0od!. <ou can 0ranch out- do #hat !ou #ant to do
music- pro&rammin&- 9 ma$e #e0 sho#s #hatever !ou #ant to do- #ritin&- &et
involved #ith Bitcoin.
%T: A0solutel!- &et involved. 9t1s not &oin& an!#here- so $no# that and i/ !ou
hear it /rom an!0od!- hear it /rom me: don1t 0e scared a0out these prices- even
i/ !ou1re seein& honestl!- #here #e are no# and #here it1s &oin&- an!thin&
under P+*** is a &ood price /or Bitcoin. e1re at some cheap prices ri&ht no#.
Ta$e advanta&e. @et !oursel/ one and stud!- loo$ it up- learn ho# to trans/er and
send it /rom one #allet to another- learn the technolo&!. Computers 6rst came
out in the U*s and the internet- and no0od! reall! $ne# too much a0out it. =nl!
the ones that did too$ advanta&e. Loo$ #here the! are no# doin& #ell- sittin&
prett!. 91m prett! sure an!0od! is #ith earl! investin&. Bitcoin is as #ell. That1s it
9 love music- 9 love Bitcoin- 9 love that 9 #as a0le to put the t#o to&ether. e1re
havin& some /un #ith it. 9t $eeps it /un- it $eeps the communit! li&hter. A li&hter
/eel.
TH: There1s so much science and math
%T: <eah- 0ecause it is ver! technical. 9 2ust /eel that it1s a #a! /or us to outlet-
and help !ou &u!s release a little stress. e #ent throu&h it too. And no# #e
have son&s a0out it. <ou lost mone! in Mt. @o5; Pla! this son& manT 9t mi&ht help
!ou put a little smile on !our /ace 0ecause #e all #ent throu&h it. e lost our
mone! to Bitcoinica Bitcoinica1s ma2or #allet #as sittin& on Mt. @o5 #hile
Bitcoinica #as in liAuidation and no# Mt. @o5 is &one. 9 don1t thin$ 91ll ever &et
that mone! a&ain #hich #as Auite a 0it- 0ut 91ve not &iven up- 91m not &oin& to
&ive up on the technolo&! or 0itcoin. 9t1s a loss- 0ut a hu&e learnin& lesson- a
hu&e learnin& lesson.
TH: ell it1s 0een a &reat intervie#- 91d li$e to than$ !ou ver! much /or comin&
on and 9 ver! much en2o!ed !our sho#. 9t1s 0een a &reat con/erence- Bitcoin in
the Belt#a!- and until ne5t time- 0!e 0!eT
%T: B!e &u!s.
+:*,:MU Credits
ABL:Than$s /or listenin& to :pisode +). o/ Let1s Tal$ Bitcoin. Content /or this
sho# is provided 0! Adam B. Levine- Andreas M. Antonopoulos- and Thomas
Hunt. This episode #as edited 0! Adam B. Levine. Music /or toda!1s sho# #as
provided 0! (ared >u0ens (http:IIsoundcloud.comI2aredru0ens) and C!rusJY
(http:IIsoundcloud.comIc!rus/5). An! Auestions or comments; @et involved over
at the /orums at Letstal$0itcoin.com and start earnin& some o/ that s#eet- s#eet
LTB coin /or !oursel/. 91ll see !ou there.