IV_ InterviewsAround oyy yo aouenug ap sso1se svap 8 shu au, uoneouenard nD aumppnuys o1ueBIO axp Jo Axa} Aur ssone ‘aureo | yey ul saouauiadxa -punos se pooysiapun aq 0} snip ‘speqaiesp pe sit Suravy Sunyjowos - ara JES’ om uMo AUK snyp aloe “BUNNLA 2 jpp aiseq ysour 2 uondanxa ayy oneredas [2 ‘sj jo aouanbosu wean ale paoueape Ape Jofew ayy, ‘sue weYSNEA Pr ppods ({je5ar | se) sooard ysoq ayy -£ejd pueg sseiq Jo pom ayy ut pautes uaeq pey (Suonpuod pue “Bursoduio ‘Bunuuopsad) saouatiadyo ji “408 Je8eaur Sou a4) LOAD JO Mata ffesaA0 paouyeg v. JoNptaD FTE Ie WA OU PeY ‘5{10M OM] 40 UO Jo LOREUTUTEXA Spajaouy Aur yeup Os ‘our an ys ypryat son go suunyan ayy 01 104 smo uo samuanyur yueyTUsis ySoHPLD ayy ADM OYA SLNAINA'T MANCNY (261) SLNAWATS MAMGNV H.LIM MAIAMaLLNI» with Andrew Clements 205 instrumental colors made a d ile ambiguity. leep impression of vital three dimensionality, of mn the other hand, sive terms with earliest. Looking back o: of hindsigl mal shaping which aj phonies. the composer whom I came to exten- ‘was his almost unfailing sense of for- led to me - particularly in the later works, the sym- perfectly well where (for exampl te anonymity ‘par transparency of his harm« process which immediately generat the tempo of a sort of “un-timing’, a marks... So much of Again, the apportioning of weight, his sense of bal- infallible timing. Over and above the d The last composer curiously enough, Thomas Ta ‘Webern, whose early works in particular exercised a wide influence upon my view of the essence of mu: ‘pression and its potential, { don’t feel that these composers have had any ‘influence’ upon my ai meaning usually attributed to the term. One or two early attempts might be said to have absorbed some elements of Varese, but the long, process of gaining a ity which, grasped, whi|, ‘Sou “papus-tt el Sunyo.uos Suto $e OR IM “09) a4p Laanajog SuASIX Ploy aya sdieysod st yory AynBiqure poyoor u109 aay | siea4 atp jo Suussed aup ypEMA SPAN -sanpnuysexjut yy ued Aut uo poau ousuy seas ‘ase Aue “95 05 autL> auO asnedaq “UeAayAr Aeneas SEM YRS Se oISMUE YsH|SU "ugsmeyppows JO APFUN-esUOY PUL - [95 19907) Fduuay_ Sv Ys ‘payadsar | oIag {os 9uo Jo SuLOU [eOISMU pantaoau Jo ej aur 10} Syuom asaup Jo aoueyoduur ayp Aqqeqaid AuoydwAG soquiey;y 2 pure ‘/opaou05 uNoIA ayy “ODI “GjaSKuE aU ay) Ye SjuoUNA}SUE PULA UA pprdnaoo wpruu seat) wIUIND pury4 axp ALPE ‘pouad sup SuuNp aT, ppreay Sraquaoyps Jo Sfiom ayy Aq passauduuy Az0a aq 0} aLUED | “raaaosqeyas amnpnys jsuo9 ou Suraey jo asuas ayy Ur oHeqeydteuE om Aynb Auajuyds xp spayar ANUKARES yy aoueuLLOpIOd yeu out ayy ut pasodizo> | Y>iyon SWuOWAACUE aaxty UE 0m v BALK, 1 295 0} SAK | alO aq, UIE] BWHOS aq, 0} savag Auwut 10} uo apeut j ade (paxeaap Aiqeqoud) aay, jo apueunopiad ys pey 1p 3814 249 Kiquqaud seas xoaseD SuInterview with Andrew Clements 207 consciousness. “Shoring up one’s ruins” can be a much more posi would have given it credit for: the sickness of western legitimately be resolved by the flesh of those social and int spectives of composed. On the other hand, I find my: its attempt to square the circle, to generate ina process of virgin supposedly giv- ld probably be more realistic to of these composers took precedence at the time, simply because had all too little experience of either during the years in’ looking at music through the wrong end of a telescope. AC: You've said that the Sonatas for String Quartet grew out Fantasias. They ‘Webern's pre-1914 music t ims evolve simultaneously, the Webernian method superimposed on ian model, or were they sequential? manifested in these pieces, to above all, a coincidence of form quite respectable parallels to my grounds for w expressive promise which I adi concerning early Webern, and the lered the ultimate fai several loosely interrelated movements - rejected, tremendously Webern's ability to let lightning strike right the perceptive faculties at particular moments -a form of lucency’. The together higher level tha selves might tend to suggest. The exister found ther which con ined and massively lengthy worl the micro-plane can only be bought \creasing preciousness. It was not the ‘manner’ of Webern (in the of techniques or formal habits) which led me to the Sonatas, but rather at whic alla-ssepp afte atp uo sojou si ut ,291go feuo|suoLTP opeys euossuouutp aap, s duureyangy me nzIndrew Clements 209 toad! at a different point in the piece’s progress; there is no moment where all are present together. One needs ings like ‘pizzici simple combi e more diversified forms, ignificance must be supplied by the listener (whose own command of grammar grows, like a child’s, with a certain amount of delay, as compared with the vocabulary). historically important; there is from my particu AC: The development between the Sonatas and works of the pre\ year, such as the Sonata for Two Pianos, is striking. Was there an externa fuence that prec roughly thematic of obeying laws of a preorda erately finite nature. That being said, Jam mor the contrasts toa further step in a process which has continued unbroken until the present day - the ‘pendulum-swing’ tendency through which each composition is related in a reactive way to its immedi predecessors. The quartet was at the nadir (or, if you like, the center-poi The Sonata for Two Pianos, on the other hand, represents one ex- e onstructivist direction ‘@ wind quintet of the same 1. Both works exhibited an intense concen Particularly in terms of vertical aggregates of va \g You encountered in the quartet in its own way just as acceptably written as the i position. The explanation foso8ed ys1y ayy, ‘uonesSrune Aur axoyaq undag Ajjenype ses appoaueg Ag {nos yyBne} sognyy WYA O} paywpar kpoamp YOM aU SeA4 “OqNE] SHEP YL SuLApNYS arm nox oy ULI sem Bag ap>AdaxLy SY -(eorSojoydiou nu aAKY TAS Pu “uaLA peY | “PapUeUIOp [eLAyeUT [eoxsnut jad. ‘yp Jo somUasKXO ay YR sonAgH pu suoMOISIP arp o "sao “Buon! eSed Aiqeiuoure] suosear £q pauonrpuoo seat Sy iSjqesedaun poSiouiqns are Kayy yred ysour ayy 10} ‘Aren}U09 ay (0) A2aruy] yp Jo sprom ayp paysiar nos 40 anaid [woo v SuNLUM Jo aotianbasuod v sip sep “sHossadopaud ayeIpoLIA syf wroxy uonesy|duns jo aauBap v smoys staaig essiyy xp Jays Oy, IV sop arout 10 044) Ur Sajor snoueA ut Su ~a1as aooid auo Aue Buppopayur way awos oy sAvaape are s9PDA9 snoueA a4 jpeoy Awa jucay are Sunsstur wraps Se SUH Yong “UFEYD 2p UE SUN Surssiuy, (war ou snyp axe axouy, -apaoidg sean stsoypUAS, Siq yXOU dx yeuopur arour Tenprarpur ue woyy azour quosqe ue> auC yPeqUOD OWA BULOD oy PooUTEYP dat woyat ya sioypen snouTea axp odn aya Oo} papuyUt ou st yy Sy “peptpoine [e30} v se sjasKuu sapisua> | Ay st sty] OM oud-omy aM YALA paredutoo aya Aqute}saouin pu yeaxyar ans] Aas v ayes}SAYT 296] JO $9Dd1q OUE Bam{ ay) U9Aa Inq ‘9961 Jo Pua a4A Inoge [HUN panuAuOD siy| -punoss a[pprU pear 0} urede aun pur own payduiaye | suontsod aynjosqe asaup wo1 -Kep Jo 148 aug aos ue8e saaa jn (Te sway Sunde) ourara Hp Was} S[L0m a) Jo BUON mopsijpM Suidojeaap Sjjenper® Au ypiar 1ouuteuL [eorSoopowpaLt 40 Jer} “Dojo Aue ut poyesanut Jou nq ‘feos Bur 0} poura9s yey pu AyaPos £q A 00 ~ ySnoyfowioy woig ozInterview with Andrew Clements 2 must have been sketched in the summer of 1969. The entire formal scheme of the piece was complete in all began to study with Klaus, and, what with my already deeply-ingrained notions of what ibout, he have had a hell of a time... What happened was th o home, write a page or so every once ‘show him. The catch always copied spper-plate handwriting as the per- fect excuse for not changin, at his suggestion. Sometimes we sometimes we went and had a meal (which I needed!) ‘was already too late for me to take anything techni ther composer by |, what I did get from him was the feeling of personal support and moral uprightness which I needed far more than any merely material assista e person who held me spiritually above water for a good three yes ing, Via his mediation I wa st whole years, which effec much in his det AC: understand Firecycle Beta was intended as the central panel of a triptych. Was the whole triptych meant to be performed complete, or were the three elements intended to be detachable? planned as the central portion of three (the anal- ogy to seve ces in Germany only occurred to me muc Parts: the last act of Moses and Aaron, I carried e two (ideal) extremes, and, at the same very incompleteness the dimensionlessness of the point nn the head of a needle? time, to exemplify = how many ang AC: Firecycle Beta is the first of your works to admit a literary- ‘metaphysical background. Was this method of working merely latent previous ~ have you always been fascinated by the metaphy something from Huber’s teaching? BF: My primary interest in ion - models, patterns, grids - mon denominator of differenJO uo aq [ILM aouoypne ayy oF ypeoidde siy ye UIEHAD fjqeuosear aq Ue {ta Sfazous jou wry apraoucl 0} st wsa2u09 ayerpouurut Ay ax0Ds akp 0} oLLO}IOd aip yo diysuogepar ayy punore xpopaqur ysrya sdrysuonejar o1peUy Onn Awa uu are auoyy 7eu3 St [puueyp atp Jo ayor ayy Ut S59] 20 azour Uaas st JouLLOpIad oxy AqpuDYa ‘ZOUD}S/fou simp/nenduo addy aup ;puo peap e 100 Sutpuvd sonbruypay paoueape ayy aanpon s puvaaisuajap Ajan0 paluaas Ym 109 ‘paysHeSsIP Svaa [OU PUL SOK “EL {PPSI HH Pua uv autor9q JOA ANoyTp aaneraudaqut ue> gsadatd asayp UE 4A, 0D 0} paysim Nos seapE ax 10J aDuIALAFAL Jo SoUNEI [ snuu Apaind yas pay -shessip ‘uatp ‘nox ara Tenuayod aarssaidxa jo , tau, soyjoue 4yddns armbar 910m Hadad Mos yw anbunyp aanejaickiayUt Jo SUOISUIXD AY DV s[e 1] ‘aoueISqNs Ui ‘st payean Sujaq peuOyeuL ayp. jo jujodpueys oy woxy dross saypmg uogoyy pur suit Xp ‘raxamoy us aoard ay se axoy at 0} aUtO9 stOABIOpISUOD ISDH ‘astno ayy LON WYSE “YT UT 40% SI aMp Aiquqoud Seo SUA, Ae {2u0Te pueys 1 Soop 40 “apADaNEY YEN ‘SOE -pnig uonoyy pur auny, ayy ysis Bi ayy Jo soydeyaut soydxo Ata v ag 0} suuidas ysuEsT, Jo INOdLI YL DV -ASojoaeypre Surpunos - ,sunu ayp jo dn Suuoys,, ayy ues y “uonspen axydos 2949 resto pd} 9569 Aue ut azoyym 295 0} J0pI0 UI “ayo ayy UO auO UFaYp asoduumadns o} sopYO UF SUaISAS sSiayuyM papoaqjoy - ySnoyfiawiag woig zzInterview with Andrew Clements 213 the spur of their climb through the ramifications of a ig activity. They must realize right from ave to be abandoned terpretative difficulty cannot become ‘an end person losing himself in the forest of things, no perform end is the ‘opus’ which emerges from his own imperfections. The fact that ork can ever hope t AC: The work you're currently writing is called La terre est un homme. What are its origins? deliberately drove pessimism as far as journey. A breakout was necessary in all. Hence the implied duality, the prod lute unorder and. ith which the piece begi sing at n from Artaud? BF: No, the name is taken from a i been very involved with His view of the communi 3s thinking us”, has had some bearing uy by Matta. However, I have at the present time. 's reported that you dislike the label ‘serialist’. Is that simply ‘ime and Motion Study II (cf. p. 12),‘sprou-asgg $97] Jo aouayU—S Ye], ‘au sosnue 3 aunypun! waar Aue ye payuape aq 0} a>I0y> Jo utopaaxy yo 9a189p ‘ip wxaA08 YR spoyou seIMqe Kojdua | ‘AM ayp Aq “ayo aye x.aouesqns pue sAes prey sy “asodutoo aup Aq, rpuodsaiias aanpord oy S108 0 jeouountudse saafasuioyp posjuezen aq youues ssauypny ‘au ur pazapuo Ins sdey stad st wostedio9 9 1 sde8 ou are aiayy, ‘ut nop jo sooard yuaroyEp uaossjaq sde8 ou KUO Poyeoaas axam yore SOUOZ sown oy 309 0 souieg purjoy “DursyUusis SuLapLO yeHp SpUd| sAengge stysous aut sysouoqur yey asnedaq ‘patos asinoostp e Ut Spuog [ear ayy axe suedUE YN fq Sug *oqUOD ayeIpoLUT ap Jo spueuIOp yoy AUT aX Oy UORDeaX Axey WHOLE Kut gunowered uiaaq sempe Suunjonas Jo addy yey seE{ “SpUOYP [eHUALA|AX snouA SuIsN ‘qenwozHoy ue AayRe2 JeoRIAA AjsnolAgo aloUt aq 0} SuHa9s HOREZTUEIO Yo IM p2}221109 = ySnoyfiowsog ug riz215 ly rules which are only followed correctly when being used ‘organization never takes advantage of T take several interlocking pitch entities whose importa bal’ series which the extent that they ‘eat up’ the material presented by the ‘Posi- tive’ pitch structures, so that I am in a position to manipulate favored pitch areas at specific moments, BF: My use of electronics initially came about simply because I was askel to compose a work for vocalists and electronics for the Donaueschingen Festi- val of 1974, Working on the intial concept, I soon moved away from the pure work as necessity towards a poi the need to make a work-immanent critique o have s profound dis- like of the electronic medium, jous belief that the more tronic machinery resembles the human voice, the more dangerous its. To- nization. I wrote a passage in Time rordal sound was generated by the was then sung live, at the same time loop-recorded and play y polyphony in the sion; it was important to be able to imagine the simultaneous “mental po- lyphony” going on in the heads of the performers, totally at odds in degree of complexity with what could be perceived aurally. The recorded version, naturally ame, but was denuded of one entire level of richness. who sings, ‘plays’ two foot pedals, and reads complex notation on up touae, ou peu 11 Apmg woHOW pur aut, jo asoquuoud ayy ‘MaxasoqUH ay) Jo OWN a4 IV, {yonutr se sopnppxo yey pue ‘ssousnopsuon Uk jen) ueodomey auf Ut LaqU—9 peap ayor uso Au a A 10} eysuUUND a1a~\ 105 SHSOSAY\ Jo UOISIAA eapeWL Ladd [-sBuIpeos pue seoueuniopied snoaueyuns pay Afestaid ypiss yosuos ae Sua auqua ue pouucyd | -de uroq se 998 ou spay auf Jo punos ax eH uusoy1ad ayy Aqaroyan ‘saSessed soauy sojduns ypnur yim posiadsroqut Surg saunyxoj sseur poyreyop ae quadns 2 punare juuoy yep & [am ~sassaroad gsaunpaoord aoroyp-paynuny s:zajnog 0} uaa 40 tado 04 sassodoud aoutey terae> 0} papeme zaaau nod axa ULIA}AP aU SOHXIS 3] aU JO SHAOM NOK IV ‘samppnuys papa “yejap IHITEUS a (seataans 24 0) 9K avy aM IMoygnoNY pamysoy squIEHaD st AjsnoouEyMUUNS sUID}SAS DAY IM poraqoD = ySnoyhniag wos o1zINTERVIEW WITH JOEL BONS (1982) JOEL BONS: You're here in Bilthoven as a member of the jury making the. for the Gaudeamus Week in September. When making value judgements on familiar pieces, to what things do you at Tmean, fe mpl as impo handled? Obviously, fa musics intent upon Fasslicike laimed by many Dutch composers, one needs ies in all musical dimensions. One must to look for and identify these same qual ask how they are handling the basic bui relationship betwe JB: It seems that compo there are so many ways to compose. isno BF: True, but, on the other hand, I find it rather remarkable and amus- me of today’s younger composers (those making a profes preaching tolerance of all musical styles) are most striden demmnation of those implify the issues at hand; music back into a sort of expressive cradle at a time when,aq pinoys sasodutoo v yey queyodu p yey ynoge p L, ‘84s oy tasoduzoo Suno4 v ynoge yey Ng af 01 pear xa auf] 0} ‘TaMod is Ajuessaooutn pu aBuess A1D4 SWId9S SM “PICA ‘saiArsaqqussod fe Suyssaa0e Aifenuayod sod are saps je yeyp passe. jenjnutag oy seadde yey 9} uot Avpoy anreu ag ured siasoduoo as jeyy punjaud ea [eSIOATU LUTEP WeD a,A¥S_UO OU JeYp daDde_aM 4 pu ‘moy[oj ypryar suOISNaUOD a\qeproavun Apaud Jo Joquinu v axe axoUy ‘AvP 234 Jo J9puO oyp st Ayqemil jeaxsnU JeIY pure ‘prea so8uo] ou axe 9]4}s [eoIsHLU yo ‘Ayan ayy SunuzaouU0d euaHLD snorxaud yeUp PU} aM J 'SPLOM yRoq Jo3899 axp DAC, ‘Ubu asn ‘SaLIeNgedOA [eOISMUL paxy AqTeouO|STY LIA SILOULL -a[o pensge Apcuns3,ueo Koy uaddey Aout Sutpuoyap dn smou stasoduo9 spuewap Aueur Moy wo ysnut A10a spuadap aavy, pmoys auo sed axp yo 38poy noun jo youre an anq SSuned0}mns ous029q ose ued aS|pa|Mouy, {ypnur 00) ‘sBurpunozsns soup) wioyy yo sanjasttauy yn oy sjsqre yeaA8 Jo sajd -wexo Aueur ae aroyy, gluasaud ayy pu ysed ayy ynoge Mou 0} aAey atio s90p quap@ Jey OF :,aaqeu aq JouULD sasodwod v Avpoy., :pres aauO NOK :Aaf “pure soappsut aaissaucko uetpeary 01 eq JO Hos urEYAD v O} paayoaa gizInterview with Joel Bons 29 BF: Thats true as far as it goes. At the same time it is also true that very many of these young composers are more concerned with their personal re activity of other people. The moment you elevate arbi- ay of your own creative activi yourself from the chain of cat vengeance, and tt hey can throw off the chains of the past ntly returning, he point. A pervasive awareness of the availability of surface features of past idioms does not absolve us from recreating, in the mirror of western culture via more intensive study of back- amounts of previous musical practice now lie us, there is surely no way in which we can create a valid work of art today without having a more than nominal contact with many aspects of that heritage. JB: But, very concretely, as Robert Craft asked Stravinsky: “What advice would you give to a young composer?” There is so much that one doesn’t know where to begin. BF: Pethaps I belong to a previous generation of composers, the one still tury myth of the individual crea- .¢ personality. The problem today is tha it is almost impossible to hold fast to the myth vidual, since we all know that an individual creation of the society in which he finds himself. Secondly, we scarcely ever S constantly changing, music, but the real question is this: how can you write romantic \dividual, freed from the social con- . emporarie to me, to be fundamentally incompatible, and I think that a lot of ‘posers have yet to confront this fact. Whereas, when I was feasible, with extreme effort, to create a body of work in which the conce individuality as such could still be counterpoised to the growing plurality and ue judgement systems taking, root.asoup Jo HAND onstHAs aup ydope youue> nok yng ‘SOM MoU UT Stasoduo9 soya 3849 st 403305 0} puDy SALUTALUOS SiasodwH09 BunOK WEDD EYAL AT ‘sjequasss wary Keme aaous o} spuay yng “Buomm ApuessadaU JOU st ey) pu - euupuas jo slowouu pueaysod © ~ axey 3,uop ing woRuaL uu NOX, “pase-a[pprur woq st siasod -wos Suno4 q oisnuu ‘epoy “YR INQ ‘uasNEPPoIg Ap1La Jo ssouTryYpNOS ayy 211 ROA yeYA ples 22uO NOX “SAUEWIOY-cON a4P ynoge SUR ySe| V “Af ‘surewiop snsi[Ays quasaud pu ysed Jo uonsouuoorayuy jsiopun oy aary aa pure Aesop ‘uonean ayy “aareu aq 0} ou uvaur nod asuas sIp Ul JOU Op :9q PINOY YIM Jo a0 ‘edunuzem aaneSou ureyad dquo axe aiouy ‘uoRPAN sep UT aa‘ ueD auO SUI aanisod ou Ajfeas are arauy ye es OF as 208 0} sytem ay worDauy {sxoury pinoys sasodusoo Sunog e yeyar jo yuudanyg v aa‘ oy ajqissod st at YUN 3,uop Nog “Af221 some way devaluing, ignoring or negating what they, as individuals, wanted to say. To me there isa sort of theft involved to the extent that an attempt is being made, not from 1910 is that all of us, at certa selves dressing up in costumes and being someone els dream, of course. Finally, we have to come back to face in the present situation. at's just a nice ity and see what JB: That concerns one kind of Neo-Romantic, but in the New Simy there's a tendency for composers to take aspects of a style in onder to make needs to be complex in its own way. All las certain interesting, relationships between the various elements borrowed from ‘other sources and not fall back on their presumed original emotive import. What Stravinsky did in his neoclassical pieces was to ignore that facet of the situation ~ that’s being honest, whereas some composers seem to expect to be able to borrow and do what they like to materials and, at the same time, when chal- only trying to write really expressive, where X is the source composer being is complete nonsense. JB: Ina lecture you gave some time ago, you said, in three words, some- thing about your thoughts on the teaching of composition. Could you repeat that? BF: Probably the words I used were: “You can't teach composition.” JB: Well, somebody said that, Act to give his advice he said: “A composer quire the gift that mal was Stravinsky; when asked "Robert Craft, Conversations w London 1959, p, 132. y Faber & Faber,98RD JPY UH UOSSa] v UT Op NOA Op yey “a1OJaq pIes NOK sv ‘qeu9 (pM waygaid e aaey plow nox yeup ssan pjnoo aU0 Inq 59x “A ALOUE JJASUUTY AS auOALHOS aYeUT 0} ‘apyRE aantsod Ar9A v SACL “AL sped aanvar> uosoys sty Suoye kfuapuadapur Sumnuquod Jo ayqede> aq 04 st ay ‘utia Su0 uosso Suanyjouos - OB Joy sy Ya UORESIAALOD UAL -eutiad oyu soqua dnd aup ‘sjasuy oy Sure} s ay ‘astas W ut ‘azays. LO 1y8noug Su1oq Ag “way, goad ayp pur poom Spreao) passaurey ay se siduiaye aanean uo sty yy papoutiod AjayeUrAUE OS JOU LHe | asneeq ‘yma aouauadxe 1oud jo juNOUTe UTeHaD e UO Papaya pur paye|NUNDe aavy [2241 ‘St uoHEMTS Sune LOALS ue WT UOPRYsoy) 19A0 aavy | aSe}EApE w2x 4tuo ayy ‘ase> Aue ut saoue}sut aad o} aouarajaL MOM aqLDSp 01 IND gp St, ‘op 0} Sjteas ay Jey Jo’SULIA} UAKO SIU HORETFOAIE 1eap BO} IY Sug 0} ‘ajqissod se ApuaoUa se poou | ‘oyeL 8 yay A1004p 04} >SHE aD ~sodurop asnesag Sonay}soe aandupsaid jo j10s v ‘ayy nod yt uals Sopeu a4) 0) araype oF duane Aio}2eysyesun 40 Ko}eFsTeS a4 puDad BLDIUD [eUON ou aiam aio “so{doutd onausoe Sumpnpxo ysouype son yo Apoq. pasoP e Aq pozuapereyp ‘uiny sq ur’sea Aaoayp pue Bunppeay Ax02xp O} punog 4 ysoduoo ‘sed a4 uy sia40 0) YSISUE sp Jo aos SuNAAUISTENInterview with Joel Bons 23 BF: What I do in a lesson with such a composer would be to try and find out, first of all, why he feels it necessary to employ this sort of language. JB: Do you do this with all pupils, or only those with whose aesthetics you disagree? BF: No, BF: To use that particular way of expressing himself. JB: Even if itis very clear and original, for example? BF: Certainly in the case find out if that particular sort of originality is being employed fashion. What is it about this music which is specifically 01 self understand what he wants to reach through this originality? It enough just to be original since, without adequate ‘support systems, itis easy to become simply quirky. Under the most favorable of circumstances, in any case, the teacher ceases to fulfill that predetermined rol other composer. Whi it being clear and original I would want to i an optimal you are dependent on his own creative capac- 0, I feel that the teacher's role is essentially a passi that you must impose yourself upon puy naturally by way of human nature. With avoid having a strong influence on them - preoccupations. But tion teacher is the one having the least number. i among his pupils. JB:So are you not more crit jowards a Neo-Romantic pupil? BF: hope not. JB: But are you generally very critical with pupils? How far do you go? BF: That depends on how the degree of recognition of self ed. With very young pupilsSunpouos you sey) ang “@ouoLIadxa [ryasn v aq JOSH WeD YH) 0y>eD) ST {wroyy estuary 2015 0} 1094 Aqua%Ky 404 910M paaput KeU ay “SOSED JO ISIOM IY uy rojo ayp Jo pus oxy Sey) pue ‘dnd e Ja8u0y ou say uatp ‘tidnd v Sutoq sadoys dnd w yuowour ou 3 mys aug Suraq wy INoge 1 spsoduo ayy noge SuPy[e) ax,NOX 9K OS "af fiddle 1980} ou yuumuostaua s18o8epad axp Jo swureySuOD axp axayAr ‘ayse1 Jo suoNsonNb 4q paseydar usoq sey Supe arya afieys au ye paatsse 9A,N0K LOY, 108 si) }9] auooLKOS ue MoH], AUR NOK IP ypns ‘aydurexa 40} ‘syNSAr 29s NOK LOM ‘Af {ALND ATaYP YIEM >0M payseys Kay ow} 3,uop Ajfensn | asnesag Ajduuts S10 aumnsaid pros | eKp UNA 3,UOP |e ‘azopeq Supop aioar syidnd apo Jo Surypeay 24 2% (poapur uogsonb prpios aaa y) 2uoneONpa sTaKP UE sey v oF arquInguNE sura;qaid aatasqo nod yey addy s9Aa 4] Soop ‘Stoy>eay saypO J0 spdnd as nox ‘yonenys 0} uonenys Woy y>eoudde fpe 0} euLI0U 5,1 yng ‘uOREIAUDS UMO NOX Jo anBearfaD v YEN ‘aouEyS fur nos uewp Ava aanisod arows v ut sun PAO o} axvy NOx soLUT ary SuizpqUD 410 “dnd au Suppene ApDANp aq 0} t99s.99 01 MULZO 0} SEU SO ysour axp jo auo se Apanoe yey pue Sursoduras yjoq siaprsu ‘op | se ‘I ‘Pai nea ascur pure spidnd tpoq uayo ‘snoxo8u st Sune} ayy UN |e ‘suossay apuys Sumpooy an sa ‘ Aqpanp aq seme wana you ABU YT oIssNostp SiaBUeIAIpIM YPNUa v JO WLIO} ax DYED Ajrerauaé suossay ‘pur U1 Sunpowos uoysonb v sat Weth Joel Bons 225 an outsider can or should take into account. We only have the evidenc music, and there's no point in attempting to lectual psycho-analytical novels in our heads about particular teacher-pupil relationships; that can only end up being anecdotal at best er thing you once said, about Darmstadt pupils, was that in't say anything about their pieces. To what extent is it necessary bbe able to talk about something of which the essence cannot be put to words? BF: It’s not always necessa ‘music verbal 18 capable of articulating the field of concerns and techniques giv- ing birth to a piece. Any composer having reached a certain stage of maturity must surely be in a position to formulate, in his own terms, his aims - why he's writing a particular work, what he feels he is achieving. That is what I am look- ing for when I pose questions about underlying aesthetic assumptions. Ifa stu- language or s quickly) or - more seri the issues raised. ly - he has not made a concerted attempt to confront tall? JB: To think about it the difficulty in question enough to have attempted to conceptualize it. JB: So: there is a why for everything you put down on paper? BF: There's a tohty which one doesn’t necessarily have conscious access to. Why should poser needs to di from the composers themselves. If this is absent, then one might as well say you like it or don’t like it, and leave position has. very little appeal, though, at least for me, although I suppose it would make life considerably easier.iyoqur sso] axe Aap sip oy pas $59] axe s[enpLAIpUT aUOs J. yey ULL ,uSAOP A UO ‘sBUNP YAS UT asINaD prLpUEYS ax auOP sey APHIS jeonaxooyy poyefar pure gurodraqunoo jo anyea ysodwioo ayarua> w Ur sansst wap, aupsodne are sanqea Surd “aapun asaup J] "sonyea apptpsae urELAD soydurt ayqeurBeun anbauypay uw Aqpe9 -qoead yeyy Pej oup Buyssaiddns axe {uo sn90¥ 0} St ypea} 0} ear ysque Auana asneoq, ‘aoRsod puooas axp spreMioy [8 18 oMIpuLy Pood tend xejnoned -onpoid ayp 40s sanbruyoo ynoqe psoe jexouaé ynoge Sunpou aoury 0} spuayard y>ryar os ayp St auG MUNI | ‘SfooKS omy AqPeoTSeR, 9q 0} wwa9s a1ay, umy>ea Oy soy>eoudde axqXoy axou pur aandudsaid 44.00 uoosnaq ‘ton soduiop pue A1oa\p uaosyjaq AqyareD A100 YsMEusIp 0} aAvy ‘nod yeyp ‘Taq ynoge BUPyTeI Sear | yey aq OF ILA 2497! | TOM AA ‘ypryan ‘oraepe> e8e ‘,surouaMy ad 40 oudg ‘oqdurexa pa} UMO S,19ype—) a4} Aq aduaNYUL ‘ypu 00} 40 wsprUrapede yo JaBuep ay, gsseP uON|SOdutoD & ut pauuteay aq ED sump [eoruypay ey ‘St }sv UaYO siasodwoD-uoU yey LORSOND “Af ears ug =Interview with Joel Bons 27 think you need to spend a lot of time writing fugues to understand what fugues are about. Having studied the ins and outs of a representative selection you can happily leave writing them to someone else. The sameis true of any style exercise = Schoenberg, cluster music, or whatever: you don’ ompose examples in order to grasp the essential points involved. I don’t agree with the sort of composition course which progresses from simple two-part 12-tone writing, via writing in four equal 12-tone parts for string quartet, up to cluster~ or texture- and ends up with a piece of musique concréte, after which you yourself a composer. Problems or tasks a Sareea temporary works by other composers. e how and why of the structural JB: Can you say something abo 2 that is perhaps the most diffi side of your own composi aspect io trace. recently referred to meas a “dionysian took a certain amount of ex- assumption true. That would be the one exemplified, for instance, by Boule: Structures I and similar products of that genre, in involved is employed to generate the material of whi The piece thus exists on that one primary level ‘work of reference”, rather than a terestingly referred preferential ordering of the material employed: it’s a way of selecting, from the totality of potential experience which a given set of primordial elements offers. The third category ‘would be the one I myself espouse, where I conceive of ordering as being some- thing like a sieve, a set of filter systems, which I forcibly impose on the basic1 st yuoUIUOD ay, (92 4 9/61 xiy-aqueso]dxo" eos ajar § MOIaNg] PE] Uy uo Aiqeqoud iid {Burkordura ate noX saiaap yeIM>INS ayy Jo alods ayy UT aes aM UED YM “AL Azewuouiout v ur uazoy eas aos Tampxtur ajnejoa Apparsoydxa jo. i {ypns uy ‘aUL031040 seat #8 yp avojoq ayers Around axp ur payoor AyDydq MUU e - payesuaud st Ay>qd @@uvjsur 103) surays4s $zaqnog “\daouod snp oy ORDUNSIPeUOD Uy * Teinngs Jo sod} snourea out payenuaraygp ‘dn yds soutooag yf anats 10 pus 249 yBnomp paosoy Butaq Aq “omy ‘Stuy [eOIsMU UT “uo|ssaudxa 40} Aressad0u A810u9 ayy ‘otto sup omy dn sony aotAop aoueystsar pure uuaanseq, peIUOD Jo MaUTOUE aL], ‘adeso 0} SuNUEAA.r9]!0q w UT LUEOIS ay] ‘PaIEIDUDS 9q yueystsar autos ysurese passaud aq 0} sey Sump ue ayear 0} auo sper} Yorn Sunwin popoajiod ~ y8noyfiowag woug wzInterview with Joel Bons 229 ie previous principles operative. That implies a rather striking reversal of the principle ‘whereas, previously, ‘variation’ was a term applied to compositions ‘was shown in many different lights, in prescribed limits, to act. JB: But when you act, how, for example, are pitches defined? BE: I might say, for instance, given certain materials, A and B; in this inspose A by an intervé taken successively from the interval sequence x, y, i never be transposed, but its component pitches will appear in different octave regi each appearance. JB: That's a kind of technical device. BF: It would be a techni of a universe of discourse wi may legitimately be permitted. device whose goal would be the definition which the manipulation of such parameters this is done with every si in the regular flow sms typical of tonal music. JB: Earlier you said that there were particular reasons for you not to write simple music. What are those reasons? BF: One is the fact that the human brain so complex and opaque. imate justice to a few facets of human experience involves (s which don’t pretend to an unambiguous view of the world, even though they view it from a very particular subjective standpoint.‘yapdiuos Jo jou ‘Auep pue AypgedsexS yo st uoyssouduar yxy ayy nq “ON “Af pu “eotorg aup jo samnsvout uppioM ‘aou0 ‘soy AUBUE ads | gays SF UBAOYAAN AUT NOY At gsm fur yeupadaoxa ‘feu 0} Sem YRyan “sonUOAYS pue sonXts oxp UT ye SuMUTE sea dISMU ALOW|E 20 ours eT vey 2g 94 se © aaPOY PU ‘Ajureyaoun ‘avy 07 Suquren you “ayqeyoswrooun sigUaysy| BwOS JEXEIAL 10} aU OU St aIBYL, as|@ aIaYAOWHOS 0} UO BULAOLT ayo uaaa Burwour jo sjuouuiBeyy 40y spud 50 easy woyy Suds oy papadya say “aupey , Sat aup SuUOUs -anssaud Ayssa0ut yo Moy An wae st adaid xajdutoo ‘suo ajduns ut ,op nox yeup ‘ax0yOg pres no« ye YEA LORDPeA|UOD UT ST eM INS Af ‘apapal [IM “uonestiaduto> ut ‘Sia\po amtyss ‘At0y ‘atuios ye shut uMo Aur Ut ‘os axour ApuO aloymaspp [ap Jo uondaniad axp Surzianpyax Aqazoyp ‘uo Stoo} eu aM aM pad] YPRYsA Sa}BpIP soALOUd punarfjovg /punosazoy Jo asuas 40 -juOUL -out 0} jwaWOUT Wayy Sa}EMDNY eASAYDI0 0} OUerd Jo drysuOREAX aIgIPAE ay yew stato aod uy, zunnion, £q wea nok Op TENA 2.10, Aq wean noK op YM ,ZoHAD{IOD UE ULZOW w UE WED | SvarDYA Si oyety Sane Eisner ope ttt er vost re ees aco sSumum, paroayoy ~ ySnoyiowiag weg oezInterview with Joel Bons 231 indeed rather clear, but that’s only because ‘we find ourselves at some distance, bot 1e and social perception, from it. Perhaps the public of the day found such gestures as the 1st Symphony begin- ning on the dominant chord incomprehensible and provocative, baeting yous a long time ago, about it being simplistic sim- all I'm saying is that, for me, coming to terms ‘of contemporary composi self and the world around it presupposes a certain sort of ambition, which in turn involves me in dealing with as many aspects of a particular musi tion as I can. It's just not possible for me tion to such an extent that a so-called ‘sim distinction, for instance, between the ally wrote and the sort of meditative with mediating an effect e word ‘simple it depends very much on the expectations of the listener, on which level of the musically given is being singled out for focused concentration. My own music is often extremely dense in terms of the number of simultaneously participat- ing levels of activity, but the immediate surface effect is not infrequently rather grey and uniform. Ido tener that the immedi- ate surface is not wh many works of the: in order to suggest to the spurious simplicity jus vailing level of angst. One has to be own personal experience, which means that one should pethaps be wary of too much reconstruction after the fact in order to accommodate more obviously direct communicational conventions What I am trying to do in my more involved textures is to allow eachSux ur padope sarayens ureya> Joya pauoguaUt | YUN | 2g auues ax 9q, pinoM ynsar SuIpuNos axp SA}OU 94p JO %OE PaHTUO auo Jr Eup SuNUaURHOD sroypO 0 suePrsNu Aq spesnyax pAeFax NOX op Moy pure 40 ampaooid 0) jpadsax up “pure sowiagra ay udassjag aouaIayP ayy aur|sapuR UUjspOM e aonpaxd 0} St PuodeS aX :SAUIALA OM} ayy UaBAK| AouEdADSIp ayy aqquiooas y,usaop yptyor ye Jo yom v aonpoud sdeysod nos “T9\4 set “re Jo 440m & aonpoud 3,uop nok WOU, sa nuodas pure Bune] josuvout SuIstAap ut opisal 0} aur 0} suiaas Aepo} SuisodwtoD ur Ue xp Jo -o1ptut ua9.AK9q LODE poppayjar axp ur uaas pure ‘Kq pautioaos Ajasoo] st Auwouomne jenprarpur ‘auaypas quia Surat] Jo 32 jo sa4e jenpe ue 10 w233 compositional procedures were accepted as making positive use of imperfec- ame might be said of my attitude towards performers and listeners any given composition, to thereby transcend them. I try ly overstep the bounds sible way, but extremely finely gradated, and the piece; secondly, I attempt to produce a counterpoint between the perceived ity and the actual performative difficulty at any given momer sounds extremely diffic e medium in- ld be the cimbalom, where the ord the strings ymatic or diatonic progression when the action in- situation can jple chromatic emely awkward to execute at certain speeds, and one can even arrange, via ‘secondary’ fingerings, for normal woodwind instruments to require constant embouchure control if relative purity of intonation is to be ‘maintained. If one is very familiar with the instruments employed one can ‘fade in’ or ‘fade out either one of these aspects as a factor in the performance situa~ concrete strands of the com- mnsciously subordinate, parameters, having the lping the performer (and, at a remove, the lis- and mental terms with the possibly ab- JB: You're not interested in music which is easier and more playable for musicians? BE: Not at present. I am not a problematic interaction of music and like more performances thai mn elitist: 'm very well aware of the ide world, and all composers would at present get. At the same time there is prob- ich more practically performable or approach- ‘can be without turning mething else altogether. certainly conceive, in theory, of a sort of musi er prob- lematic aspects of expression could be highlighted, by appropriately different means.suonene, ourrg oxy pu (uonduosuen ainy-ouvrd se ypns ‘ajarp Siaquiaoys UD FRUND PUIAA WL SI joyy “auto eaPUN UCU JO 20] & poureyuoD ypryar ae: sano qYSnoug ISN Jo JOO'PS UreySuTULTIE, Typo} TeUAS YIM drysuorejar = pyeuog o1 A *preau stu Ut Jjast ysmBugsip Apex you pip A1e1qr] ajdt ara saRXs -niut auf Jo UORDOS OSM Up ayn Suu} jo ossnur apuvd-yueae, ou mou 0} aU NOS pIp MOY Pure LOYM !De pe P, am MAEM uOREWOAFUOD ISIy Ayy “sUEySUE ‘Aq saoaid Surpueutap ayinb 01 dn dod a10>-yos woyy SurBuer ‘a[%4s Jo KrooUeD ayaiduzoo axp sem sw 0} pomTTY “Sama pue sonbrnypay jeuonssoduioo jo sy0s je out yySIsur (paraproun) Ue aM aur uoAKs ey STU) pure ‘soy pue YSry Jo souarXa Kaan axp uoH} ede ‘SuoUNZ}SUE PLEA, Sout padeyd pey | g] Jo av ayy Aq “sHvOA may v Jo aoeds axp 9A0 stuEM P nut se aarasqo o} Ayunpioddo jo Aquajd sey jaunasut oyDods ato poral pay uu “uorysey sty ur pains oj ‘SuENEAY eysNLA uaag anny ysnus aooid aup os “refag KuounreY Ur SapMIs ,[e0 SUM SIU], “FL 40 E] SEM | LOYAL LARA “Pug SSeIq 40} YueUL & SLAF FEY 494 -wraurar oy uia9s | oyqnd ‘pouLioysod 2q 0} faa autut jo 2doid ysx15 xp Jo atoos jours yo amp aa Aiqeqoad |: HONOHAANYA NVI aun 1eWp Je pey Nos pey UORLaNpa pue sadtHIadN@ [eOISHUL Jo HOS Jey Ay pue ‘asodutoo oy payreys nos vay soquiautar nod we SHLEARID INVA (€861) SHLGATAS TAVd HLIM MATAMS.LNEInterview with Paul Gri two quickly laid aside. Coming across at least one Webern score led me to buy as many others as I could afford, in particular those having a more lasting influ- ence, such as the Bagatelles and the opus 5 Quartet juse and half-digested impression, rae ‘more important for reasons of motivation than of actual technique. All this was of a purely visu: ince performances were few and far between. My eat or so. I remember being tremendot the uncompromising clarity a that composing became my de nourishment, je. The radio provided sporadic in this way I came across Gruppen and was struck Several books were quite important at the in particular, al mn. Even more important milar interests, so that was very slow and inse- properties to have, and might not have been gained in any other w. PG: What led you to study with de Leeuw and Huber? What did you learn from them? BF: My fi Gaudeamus Week side Britain as a composer was to an any other sing! ike-minded individuals ‘was quite a revelati out reserve and to be accepted wiSunpeay wos wie] nox op 34M “Da woy Suisue afeurep ajqissod oxp “4apjo sja8 auo sv “yey aq AvUE YI SHay}0 Jo Som ap 0} aunsodxo way AjsnowtzoUs papyatiog aavy oy Siasodusod Auteur jor eumun ‘ouunsse |S “y105 aAayeyM Jo advan sor [asmoo JO “pnpaid ayeumnjn ayp ype SurAyTUD ynoyyiar ABOU aaq.wax> 30 +e Aq paduanyjut é[paispap aq ue duo SouTaUOS ney y,usa0p a0uan| ‘dep aup 10} paystuyy sey “urexp Jo spoupeUe poazono avy [t ue signowy ann a As ;papnppuoo u99q, IsseUu Jey SuLIq aygeuo poproyse sng Am = oun eA Ie uojiad o adioy ou ypia uo - ejag appAoautg Butsodwo> sex | “ppoloud oddns ayp soy yputress yp portad yep 404 ny ssa] 10 azour sea anbrunpoy Au a ‘eawak omy 40) AwOpeDy ayseg aR ped ayy uo anuqUoD 0} aut pamoy ayy yo puadns w our Sumues ur (uanony ne | S4n297] AP ay JaqnHT Snepy Jo uoRUA.ALa}UL aN AUO SPA uuer woos Aauout sy (Q1 Jo 9921 20) &y nr ax9M SuoIssMOsIp YSMOMp WAAD ‘umo Aur uo paraquas SA 1 A. eK Te inom aure> aouey> ayy purInterview Paul Grifiths 237 nuance comprising human personal ibility in appreciating and thinking t imposing my world-view and mus patience. yugh the insights of others; how to avoid al aesthetic on others; and - not least? - PG: In many respects your a period now of twenty years. Does it seem so cor you? What is your present attitucle to your works of the 1960s and 1970s? Do you have an urge t go back and revise? Are you writing the kind of works you might have expected tobe writing? BF: I like to think that my works have remained consistent but not im- mobile. Only in retrospect is it possible to assess the real | suppose my career has carried on much as it began, the need continually to reformulate and reassess the field of forces lying between ies and those qua eral swings of nd stylistic developmental context is pretty absurd. I haven't tried ‘works written many years a barrassments and obvious inadequacies - facets of myself which, because of to fade into obscurity. Sometimes I've found the odd point there which has given to follow up in my encounter with current creative isues. Sometimes, late sixties my h technique adequat later, where the perspective is obviously wider in my head than so many years jough not necessarily moreworst oypods you - azoyp sear yz0M v yey UONLSUAS Uappns v paodaLiadxo J WaYM suoIseDO usEq aaLY ary], gHBaq YOM v soop VAY Ad {Aquouos semoned v wou ‘apt xepNON cred v woyy ‘9]oyM ayp Jo UOISTA v Woy - UIBaq OM v S9OP MOH] ‘Del 1Amnuapr aad Woy iq yom st ayy ur juan sayy sem se yons ysed yst Buy ayp yo spadse jo aia AIpInp toy |, ‘Suraey nou urepg yoy | ADU Hang “juaudojaxap juanbasqas: SunoK v uo aouangur sea v Sey sm wou amt pue yoddns sopuasiu -#8140 Jo aunyeu aug sta lly "auoy SONSst UTeUE aANKY ag 0} WPS ADK, ‘2 Ws ssousnOsuoD feuOReU, -vurwouap wounnios axp saAayeysn épze9p> axotu ayp tte Aeydstp jo suosoco jo areyss sey Anno Aton9 Agogo nop Sun FUL YIN awOS aay vu st, “sanITeN g4;M0 AIST ago axour soy) Jo Aueur uroyp wo; SupeUTUMA ary ‘SuOLIdojaep MU! JO} vedo ao syisin «Sudo 2 sno way ure] yey otuaLd xp puree SuoMRuyap Yons YSOYY jO\POUP Uo sprequra 0} oge Jou LHe J ye DISMAL myeU at auYap 0} siduiape AueUE Os UE aALY AY, AT oisnuu ano ur ys Sug 8 uw azquSo01 nok oC: “os adoy | 95e9] 1V Aepor ye Sunure wre | Sump Jo os ayp ur sjasuaTY Pa7TU -Sooar axvy plnom spas s0SuNOK Au UNI [/2TOKEM aA UC) "(@SINOD Jo ‘SAUAKANE SSunum papaya - ySnoyfiouso wg 9Interview with Paul Gri ‘materials, necessarily, but the sense of active possibility. More often, a work has crept out of a mass of loosely interrelated ideas, taking on concrete form almost the last moment. This can go so far that ly have no idea how a work ill end until shortly before the moment of having to decide between a number certain instrument is involved right from iely, since itis clear that the suggestive ind ‘momentumy thus have an important role in my initial formulations. Other pieces emerge only after protracted battles with an already extant idea, such as the piano piece Lemma-Icon- or the ‘Time and Motion Study series. This is usually much more agot the idea is constantly undergoing mutations caused by the developme purely musical techniques and it is easy to get the feeling ; wn tai PG: What processes, mental and written, may be in ception and completion? themselves ‘under th (, leading frequently to the most J when the active phase has begun. Then interpenetration between the concrete and the more formally dispositional can ‘a Tong time. Once the large-scale form has finally on that aura of secondary properties concern itself. The work emerges, under increas- ing pressure, from tl ‘which its expres: sive world will be reprojected. PG: Do you ever abandon works? ough there have been a lot of times when ideas mn conerete form - usually two or three bars of fully0 st pny ‘ado JouUT ayy arojaq spofoud amgny jo esta SuReyUE KpUE|sUOD ISej aNeAOUMT puL Mott v U SeapE UEDA ApeadTe “oMp ope tg of wos Aoxn ‘wonpayau any aye soyun “ys ‘pozTeaL Ae Sonatas ieee eat ‘woyy Aqpopadxoun aut uuodn autoo sey anaid e x05 sou wioyy sui -t0d Surutosaq ‘aouvoy eorsmur Aur Jo 5 aymb yuouroaout pure quaroyy -U0d xp ADU ‘Oya vopr ue Suquanuar y Aas au, MeAdTAL 0 1ySnoyy say | Jaye steak SA ypieo somos | eu) SnonuUND Os st ssaddud ny sSunp pau oso 0 [emdaouoo v ag ypnuu oor iq swioNs sIyy Ing “OY JH Kay Uayos aySAs Sumy preo v opt apury yons fe oe OY Stasodusoo awIOS AIL ALOK YEA) MOLD} 1 TAM se ut panys “379 ‘AzoUoNeys aioy ‘stodedsatou -eav anvpins Aue uo seapr Mop suresSerp yo sa8ed n JO aq Aout yey soy>ey{s daoy nod OC] ‘Del demsue ad 0 Jo Jaquinu e ayo are aratp aBeys sp IY ‘Pua ue ©} uonsodwon axp SurSuug wi poayoaur yoyja asuAyUT aX a10}9q, LOR euy & 204 wy Suypraoad ‘syjuou fexaAas 40} yse| ueD sporiad yong “doys v 0} pouopuege are spofoud ueut pr SMOU JSIYj aU aroyaq BuO} ,sunaq, sKeare ayanuos sty 0} 40> axp, Puy 0} axqe Huoq, AU IN soclutoo y “uonenuRu0S I = [eHDyeUU yMO-payom. 8 UM, poo} - ySnoyfiousa weg ia241 Interview clearly defined that it allows for little possibility of major modification. By the same token, though, there is a much greater potential for the development of ‘materials or means of treatment from one work to the next. One of my more afford. Although my own way of working and my for any sense of ordered evolution. Th pred- approaches to t e Carceri d’Invenzione cyt their initial chordal mat the nimbus of smaller, surrounding works offers quite scope of transformational and form-building devices PG: Do you write regularly during particular hours? preparatory nature to be done, in any case. ry hard to be at the desk for between six and seven hours less, if !come up against obstacles that will be realistically possible in alien and anony- mous environments. Miscalculal ‘course. In the jorable of cases, there is always something to be copied or corrected, flow over almost imperceptibly into compositionAqsnoraBuep puv astey vag 07 ae paSeSua, ysuteBe ayes s 420 105 1, PIO seme aney J-uogsonb ayy purysiapun Afayojduvoo | yey ans you WH, 36h tut anok 30 muaqut Auw aavy nod oq ‘aqeraua’ Sioa sutaysAs yeu) sarkiaua ayy Jo uaUXojdapar ny} puinore paraquad are BUPYIOM JO SporpaUt po jenyoe “yBnoua uayo “Inq yNOYsIp azour q>auoD ayeUIAAA Toy SUPFeUE IOM yA JO BaqeF TeI9A0 axp 01 Assuntos azout ypnut sis anasto} puay Soop i ng uowspa J s1s9 im days &q days (poystignd s9yp] auo ayp) axons aannuyap ay no doo (0) puay | ours utsoduzoo Jo ean fenjpe Aur UE SON SMM 40} WOSeAL HEU aH, ‘suoneorpur aoueutiopiad Jo UoIssnUHO [e}UAPHoe ayy 40 SoDeINDdeUT eUORLIOU JO uORRUTUTS aIquHAaU ay) Way pede “ysnur aeSueYP WOPjes L494 | ‘SuruurBoq 24 ration ayy &q passauddo ‘anureuioyiod b 105 10 Kuo midde ewan stip yBnowpre ‘aanany OM 20) sasindun aatspap apiaaid we> uoneyaidioqut sejnoqied v jo Aue O}UT Yuaou8 jenpesd ay Surssouiyy ‘suonrpuod jesieayar aarsuaqut spun Ape|MON ated ‘aoueutiopiad aay wos Sunyjautos suseay sXestfe au ASIM09 10 41 geouewuoyiod ysuy v zaye 20 yessvo4you SuMp a8ueyp saioos og Zo¥snUL Mos SuLzeay Woy ZuMpAUE LAD] NOK OC] Def jenprat 1- Suisodurop ynoge sump Suneut mny uoueuniad ayy uous sou ayp Jo au0 st yeyp sdeysog adoud MM paII2]10D - ySnowauiag umag weInterview with Paul Griffiths 243, ‘decentered’ in the interest of all sorts of nebulously powerful social pressures, there seems to be ways. A truly ‘experimental’ music is not necessarily on iggles half-digested ideas and ‘materials in order to be surprised by what comes out: rather, it is a form of liv- ing discourse re usuall eeciedicre al getting the piece written than specu- ld agi thatthe acteristic of any species of contemporary music. There is no such new music audience, but rather a chaotic mesh of special interests - something course. There may be the man or woman fascinated by concert where a relatively small \gregates in a back-street hall has been overtaken by t-suorssardurt eorsnu yo Suuop soar puv Suny aanmqur juanbosqns ayp 405 punos® ayy aredaud yySnut‘adoy | ‘Apiyon suom atp jo spadse sejnonred = ssi. aISHU aMp 0 spodse saypasi; jeuRLHOU StF YOIyaN ip wea asnyep 0} Moy [Jaa 19a moun saunssaud eD0s Moy Jo ajdutexd pos Ayaid e st euawiouayd yns 0} ast Suai$ asuas uourws09 poo’ jo ABofoapr sto} nbign ayy, yes oIsnur ayy Jo amMeU ayy AAAa}EyAK sfouUEYD seTTUTEY‘aunDaS MUU pure zea axp SaypyLs dope oy parjaduut jay 108% soe] sayyo yewp Surdjdur snp jnoupiss aoueZOduat savy ww99}s9 PUE U ndo jeuosiad asoysn sjenptarput 0s 10 uazop ayy 10} Soy a0 asoddns [ ‘asta Mana ou 40} AzessoD9u sMacuUt ay UIEWUTEUE Pu OYE Ue a4 JASUUTY 10j SY10m Josodwos Araaa sISApeUL ySeT aUp UT UOHLUTLIDSSIP suedio Aq jou 10 UOREXaUUE stoKp WHOA PIOUOAP Aj. paspiaxo avy sisnre soleus yey) umoys Apuanbayy sey He Jo Koysny ak “Sung oures aip yo words yuadar an v st sInteroiew with Paul Grifiths 245 While the text is in no way conceived of as part of the work, there is a sense in which it exercises an exemplificatory function, suggesting the existence of fields of force between works and world through which the resonanc can be projected into other dimensions. Music d sorts of cultural experiences were clustered. ly that the art has become shamefaced about some king refuge in some anonymous and unreflected ideal of a say impoverished. My texts are certai but, rather, to strategically disorientat mulaic reaction. PG: Are you ever moved stimuli that you can recognize: word ideas, etc? write music in response rer works of art, natural phenomena, ‘once, stich as the tions, and the sort of surreal animism that lends the pai The same is true of the Piranesi series to perhaps an even more far-reaching degree. Transit was a case in po since the layout of the orchestra was a close reproduction of the concentric circles seet(Z91) (sMIUAD Jo Uy aMp pu AaRANS,) oN ap a}.0 A opoendy Fo, idooy uy uonnyosstp jo ug ayy ‘sassapoid AioyeuLi0ysteN Jo UreYD pue (Sureaddestp 30 uLEq ou 2notayy O}UE La|qUUTG axp Jo arm -Srasonanedin ai Bug oy se oad nfo wpa 9 40} wansZ30j 99 0} adou | EY porenULO} xy UnTEluog spaudsionegy, uoyosmnacy sop Sunadsap) Sty UL yayjour pue Suruvaut Jo Woe soRIUCUT uO UaaMaq OREIMPOLL Jo ALUOW Ip SAeAyfe sea UIADLIOD xousad sy ye aon ato yeaa st QxoquoD MARA v UE OMEPY m4) umurefuag saypey, pue ‘route P = qaoupo hue nf AUOUL = JY WLIO; Te H y>eq UaeIp BUG Haris ‘yy se sn ‘ayy ‘140 [BO1 Jo worsstuupe oyp 0} adxo yySru auo Ue 19s0P9 SoULOD UIOYSUDSAIM ‘oIqesEs yp JO suuny ax 40 Syeads ay azoyn ‘snjP}204) ay) JO Pua aYp Ye “PUL }asIO} -ur sovopelen Jo opeDUASOIp! SOUT atp UAAA ALAM spuod tayo are ALD ‘TTS -asraanum ayjoue waxy sauna sv Joqpo ype papueser aaey pynoss Kaup Sioa -e> aanpadsar soy) Jo spud 249 Je JOU! peY uTuTMuag pu UID}SUaSHINA 41 eH ana anos oreo PUN] “LOS 1K JO > ris ‘aumb uaag avy suonssodusos yuaday Avu yo aaj v ayinb Ajoerpaurt Aqjequawepuny ered payeynutioy ur0} s1n290 mesapISUOD JuOLEUTUT-oISMUL gpd yim asuadstp oy puay 19 - ySnoyfiowiog og oreInterview with Paul Griffiths 247 Benjamin seems » have a foo cuff I can only suggest that tion open between differe catchy phrases 1 we end up in exactly the po- that inds, Perhaps music, by incorporating both these extremes in high degree, can hope to bridge the gap, if only asa form of favored. special case and for a limited period of time. PG: What music would you go out of your way to hear? BF: Almost anything from the Italian renaissance, primarily Mot the Gabrielis and their contemporaries. The exuberant pleasure in the architec- tural play of masses in the latter and the mannerist intensity of every detail the former - not to speak of his amazing timing - have always exercised a po erful pull. Little from the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries; my central ests begin again with early Schoenberg. The Second String Quartet, for inst seems one of the century's masterpieces, and I w ays make an eff hear a performance. ‘There's not a great deal of more recent music that I would go far to hear, but that’s probably because I hear a lot anyway, and like to spend as much time as possible with my own things. I seldom feel greatly attracted to first perform- ances, although things were ~e then the ‘aura’ of expectation attached to such ev largely dissipated, along with the ad- venturous spirit of most of the composers(17 °4 ‘summon sup 29s) LA op ya aouwnea sseo ye Apuonbay axe sjapour payryduns ny Sv YN SULIOS ¥ INUOD Jo padtE UT Sta payour emjsa8 afSus a4) soavoy wuawouayd oquewoy 0 SafsUAPUA} (,[PUDS [e}0y, Jo jeuas, poyre>-os ayy ysuree onuojod Sui8e mou ap i dn punog, uuayat Sqreqronued “wu0} jo urfump uo surayqaud yo sc euogoidap partp jo jos autos ur rasodUto9 aup Jo UOROUID auf WOpaL A ue saimyso® yeoismur yey stor ayy yey pur ‘ovo Sun -sapautb St oysmuar yn ur paryduat ua -8ns | quALIND MoU Lus|DHO}STY-OOU Jo Spueag sNoHa otp Oy pasodenuoD atouy sem spay yndap, Jo uonjsoddnsaud v se 0144s jeuossod yo AymUUOD 30 Aytssanout i ‘wsqeuruna ‘wspqueu -oy may ayy se aBe ayp Jo euauouayd Yons O1 IDEAL ROA OP MOF, Oy 2, JO HOS UIeHED e st axayy asoddns | sjutod ay -ads asoup way yed'y -asoddns 1 ua}u0> 40 Aagenb jeotsmun wey jede sio}>ey JayO 0} anp aq Keur yey Inq ‘SsheAS oUtOs PU tpAsAayUOY ‘Broqueoyag quede ‘00 “4009 paso ApsoUt v st viadg “> ‘ssepp-2]ppru Ajysnosoyp e siayo JeU WOS yp 420 [eoHED-01D0s Jsout “(HOS aannHiedatIntero aul Griffiths 249 inverted commas are inevitable. PG: Do you feel yourself to have any affinities with composer colleagues? of composers whose attitude towards the importance mand its connection with other areas of experience | hich may le. This keeps me quite occupied! Apart lly have much opportunity in Freiburg to the careers and development of others. ‘Some colleagues and I occasionally exchange scores, and this helps one keep important threads unbroken. Anyone attempting to keep up of the growing production of new music scarcely has time to compose himsel, I should think. My activity in the Institute for New Music at the only order wh; and composers the ones most pedagogically instructive either.JO a8IN09 auf UT “S9pIsoq pun fe) 01 amMONIp Ng “0s AIsnoDsuc Ajaverpoururt asoyy 30 Joypia Buraey ynoypLar HOM w EIS slosduy ur astias | yory Jo Seaue axe araup :oM], ‘fi smut yon, aN 9,49 J asnea0q “days Js aK YIM yjasdur jo vare ue st axayp :3uD grind sao] scempy 1y8u s ey 59x ste ys nog pry ‘Seare UqvpiaD Avy aq Ajpenjoe nox ways yeyp, ueOU yeYp S20C £1 juaurarou redea Koyearasqo juossa ue UR Auteur pury anf 5 tp yBnanp Su08 Jo ssopaud any s, moun A PAYA Ut 0} JuTOd 0} puay son Bye aaLLTe Oy JOpUO UL for JO APAPA oxp st yon Sup aw asoue Inq Aroxcosp-s[9 Jo a8eKOA by MPAs 10 ‘Jam sv UORTUYEP-yP JOU ATE SYIOM IY WU OS -L “sod ‘ony sem yey Aes pinom [- aut 0 aqyssao0e ataisseope Ajarerpouny ayp Ug tg A391 OM quip Sur “poy OX weYp owes Hom ano yey Ue JEU S90CT LAL 4 oyun Jaye YOM JoxOUr aonpoud | se xe} 0s Ut) Pawar uosted jeyp aas of aut ajqeua aut 105 JE ALSUOD YoY sasse/, aU ‘SS Sard aures axp ur pue Som ayy SugLM Jo aouayiadxe ay} ySnonp auog Suacy y8nonp wre | yey ute | >y20m a ji gtesAur Jon-ySUOD | eHA SI>{10M KUL JO podse sejnonied avo yeup Aes plnow | “ON ‘HOMOHAAN NVI Ofom amok uy S Jo UUIDID Ue 29Np S| “JOOL CUVHOIA ejpaary Azoaoostp-yios pur ApqUaIAY (e861) dOOL GUVHORI HLIM MAIAYALNIInterview vith Richard Toop 2 any work of that type, once commenced, the piece inevitably takes on su dimensions at some st ‘going to get finished at all. Sometimes I don’ finish works for precisely that reason - because they don't find access to what ever itis that needs to be said. RT: How do you cope with the sit n which the means of you I-discovery’ are governed by the external circumstances of a commission For example, can you say to yourself, ‘Well, I think it is now legitimate fe to discover myself in terms of a piccolo’?* BF: No, With the exception of one or where I have to say that the discovery has ha semble? even think of an ensemble in that way. I find it excep rr ensembles’ in the normal sense. I never wrote fo one before Carceri ments in it.I could istential energy and suggestiveness, simply by deviating from the standan grey norm. RT: But isn’t it true that in Carceri I, especially at the beginning piece, you assign very specific tasks to each kind again the journey of self-discovery, as self-investigation, the idea of seeing what for me are the fruitful extremes of th inchoate nature of th value of projecting thfeauq 0} avy 3,usa0p avo EU BSUS aK UF LORKDYISTEY WISH e Sal ae ZU Jaq}1e9 ue ye Mata anos Jo LOReDYSTe [eNIEd v APearTe JIA S130 ‘Kem yep [poy tls nos og -arwAND o} LopUO UE YSMoAY VAxOIg 3q 0} PEY yp ae poId Jo 0s & ysureie pea nog Bueq OJ pey Nod pease a> yssod jo pusS yuaystxo-ard es 0} pauttaas nok pypns DpugysaL 0} aioyp ax Aonp ‘TeLa}eU aaNp oud 0} araip you are aur JoJ SaimpAng "uoRyse) yeoqtudts 2004 uo YR UNI YromauTeAy e aAey, nySurueautr we 1 Tenp st aun onus Aue jo asn ay qunp | ‘WoReauAS snoauejuods st [Bap B18 Vy :Heh epaayona Atsnoau -e1uods st yonur soy pure ‘tonysodwo>-aid st yoru mopy zaoueape ° som nos yeu sung dIsnus NOK wt SorSa}eRs TeuoNYSodu0d xafdusoo oxp axy ‘1 sarSaqens jeuonysoduio>) e »P 3,MOP | Jt ‘OU 40} ‘asoyaioy pury “BuIDq jo aunyny pue sed ayy uo morip os sefMon Ted yeyy UI SHUDLUDAD ISOKF Smopeys omonperp ayy Aq axout ze; ang “(AfLtewrtad you 4s0oy ye) surE|OD -9[p oHsTUORpUAS aYp Jo SUID) UT OU PAYA aq Afuo UeD afA4s Vy “ssad0ud aA yom eyo ALo}sny-oyne, axp fe> [IVY $9] PAYAL Oy ya. au Asn Jo aatadUIOD },1e> [ pur sasodura mops & uty ‘asoduion 0} Aes £fuo aup S31 asne29g sq uu ut juoutour erauio8 si UID “LL 2 ey 0s eArpnue810 Ht area, snp axrasaud nog we MOpy craquIE Ut a9q & YH ‘ULIO} ,Paq|>B, ZZIntervi ‘hard Toop 253 through the wall, because that would imply the wall’s being an undifferentiated ‘bject. Rather more, I would see two forces at work -and perhaps this isa psycho- tion, but nevertheless it enables me to present a convenient ‘asystem of continually moving sieves. This necessarily forced ly apperceivable. le way of producing complex Mad Mirrors, mul at my basic sketch-books, writing, rather than mu one hand, or pictorial imagery sometimes (less ofter tion (always: the years - of , whatever they may be, whatever things I ‘choose, might be applied to certain sorts of grids RT. You retain your sketches? BF: I never used to.. RI: For any particular purpose? BF: I earn a certain amount of my livelihood from teaching courseseAvp snowaud axp yo pua ayp ye arom nox azoym Jaquiautar nos yeu puyy NOX op 40‘) 308 p,nog axayM JUaAUTAL oO} SUE any Aqqear dep ypeo jo Surungog yp ye sjosinod puy nos op PUY :1Y -uoryse} SHB UF auOp yOM SOY IYB!a 40 UaAaS 198 | Sep [eopr UO PUY “Z 10 OF'9 O} Twatp pue “Og 40 ¢ punaze eIsar | vaYp pu ‘(daays e aavy | aIqIssod 10 [fe “uo o8 | pur ‘sjuapmys [le 0} put 3) doy 402 Awopar p,j Sunpauos jresoues “119M ‘Ad @oue|sumorp Xq payeprp se ynut A190 3 120 ‘aunnor sepngas v aay nos o¢] Zporpaut SuPfIOM MOA S1 WY ZL ou LUPIP I A001 YO, auuos 0} asuodsar ynoo | aojuerens | ’,2]e4p Jeadax Nos pynod ey pueysIapUN (es pur ott ydnuxaqut 0} azam nog pur ‘sinoK jo uogsanb poyeorduso> ‘$zouuota wuiay-LoYs A194 wavy [WeAA st ‘950d Pojoypsd a1seq Aww Jo au YSU szeYI, I souUmTaUK ayy uo ajdurexe Areu/Seun ue Supyeut Aq ‘Ajsnoouey -uods ay {uaAU SouuMaLtios 9UO yf noge BuPyTey Sunes pue dn Suspueys moauejuods aq 0} a¥f] | ey) SuIOP ay soueape Ur sIsépeuE ay gnoge sur {upyO0| ou) aq|gnd U1 Sioa uMo s au0 SuLzspeuvaL UY [UALR Spat auo “pooyyyaat pred ware sje ing ‘Sasino9 sawituns ~ Aqpewsayx2 = y8noyfiouog uvug +tnterview with Richard Toop 255 BF: Well, because my sketches are sometimes incomprehensible, even tome, the day after, because of the short-term memory we were talking about, account at the end of the pre- tive dynamism, then usually at the end of a day’s work I leave a certain amount {t morning I can pick it up and go on with RTE Is it possible for you to work on more than one piece at BE: Yes, I've always done that: RT: From preference? Kagel claims that itis essential for him to be work ing on four or five pieces at once, just to create the necessary level ibsolutely, because what one work fails to illu another ‘and therefore, even though these works may not use the they are very often related in many more subtle ways, simply working on one piece would have prevented one from acl RT: Does this mean that at any one point there is not so mt set of works you are dealing with, but rather some kind of theor kernel, some kind of conceptual central work, which never actually gets writ- ten, but on which all these various pieces yo peripheral commentaries? re working on ar, in a way, BF: Certainly not peripheral commentaries! However, there is a certain central kernel, and the simple word ‘style’ mistake of equating ticular work or group of works contains, whereas I would define ‘dyle ‘more in terms of continuity in the employment of certain types of material from one work to another. Since today we have a very plurivalent society in which very many styles are present simultaneo follows, if we don’t want to undertake in ‘Une panique créateur’, Musique 1075, p. 39aqeunsqo 9q, a,nok ang sfunp J “ny Atos aq o douun wy8tr oxp ae Sump YSU axp Sutop jo soHEUEe v Jo aoueayruts snaypsoe ou ‘Aqjerued ysvop Je ‘SuuMsu Jo Ava Aue axaUp S| :LAL 2ISMU Jo UOYSUBUN [era aI, o pasodwr Arvssa aut SOUL UE DALTEUIAS aK Aa) As Jo Aer njd v jo uonenys sup ut Sem a s nuns amyny pue sed sy. Sur s s auyapar oy ‘puedxa lojeaap Ajsnonun, 9 AUO UT 10M 0} OAS UY aIOLL‘spaaLt AepO} saSOdUHOD v AUOFaIDU, spadsns 4|Surpaaoxa Aqqesour pur A129 (aaj JO ean uTeHAD v OTUI Sn D104 0} sme pur Ajjenooqjaqut yyog snp puy | uoneindnrew ses e1sTUL Jo y0s aLuO 2 aM “pareutSu0 feu ase ax uteaurt y asnedog ‘ vip Aes 0} ayeHISaY PI so1d9s Auer Jo sayseu snoreSuep Aiaa v sat yu 101s > ysisut09 sco} n yeads 0} urea] Aoyy UeD MOF] ZSYIOM ayy Yad VORDBIAIU 40} sjequojod AYP PIM ‘SYS! MALAI UE saapeswayy qLyXo 0} U99s aq ‘SarayeNs soln) BuPYOM Jo SUEOLL osoKA ‘SHUOLUD|a SNOLTEA asoy} UE MOY ~ JJ9sIt 0M wo Jo yuauudojaaap ayp Ut ‘Joaa] UALaPIP v UO “osfe - SOM JO SALDS & YSN re> MOY 18 JO JaPeIeYD Sunryop peAuassa ayy ‘aU 10} ‘BUOFOIOU||, ‘wiatp ut Suraq siasod UoD asoY} 0} pamoyje suoHLIAuDS snorsard ut a[Ays payTUN & YOY ssaULUE AUCUIDS at) YOM UM sty Jo KURDS ayy URAL SUIeADAY Jo 5se) a4 Sey n JO aUO Ypea “a[AIs poytuN. Matt aUO joy Jod 9ywaidaI 01 BULAN JO Ysey peur oyYou've got to be sitting there, waiting f keep the standard up during those dry times will never come. RT: You feel you've had dry times yourself? the scene altogether; the moral respon: The rats have left the sinking ship, and even the ship has probably sunk. And the reasons I say a desert island is because most people don’t e- let's work, or RT: How would you distinguish between the two? BE: For me, ‘moral’ is a somewhat heavier, more in the sense that ‘moral’ has far more of the Ado work of art can be good or bad, right or wrons il-downable term, t social precept RT. Rather than ‘right or wrong’, wouldn't the Adomoists say ‘truthful that society has at a given time. RT: They would say that, or you would?gnox sysaxoqut ey) Za]nog Jo pouad ,pneuy, a4p AITeax 5,11 OS :E21 {saua}UF ar97 Jo ua|q Sey SuEZIOON) Aqanpe area umo Aur se zey se yng “asuas souesaqnxa axp o} payejaL AIpe sanyxo} Kea autos ut sem orsmuur Apo Aut yeu Apureysa0 Avs pInows [24g hom Sea ano uo saouaNyut reponse Aue axoyy 919M FL uossaudyy jeyar Jou 10 BunsosayUT aq Aeu ue ‘BUI avo stom OL “ou AALS Aue ye SysaL0qUL uonpjar ye PAARL sey LOM v ayes a4 BuRUAdUIOD sjasduUt UF J99} | YI SKUs iowa Jo asuEs ay Woy} IF MeIp | APS PROM | ARYA JO ‘HSM WOM, Ajaund -MeIp | op 40 ‘SBunyp peusayx9 waxy aoueUaysNS MID | Op 24Se N inb uonsonb step ayeAuaLayP 01 119 0 sndioo oup way spuatudojpaap aunyny esp 0} memiyuoo aeyns yo ueyy saypes jausdojanap, Ipueys Aur ur Aurea Aun np Woy UORLTALINS Jo ux ur quepa Apeae a: sar okp Oy ‘Sear sayO WO 1 0M a4p Aq AqTeuLaqUT poyerouas ‘SuLmoyjos are nod ped ayy ur uoRDIAuaD snd pur ‘OMaYpSee fesOUaE NOK sf 21, tuorssaudxo ano azaeInterview with Richard Toop 259 really what interests me ely intense ident any composer's in of expression in realization, and the intensity right from the be- ind delimited view of art, teaching my pupils RT: Among other things, it’s a matter of deliberately setting out t ate a labyrinth, rather than a one-way street... BF: Well, I've been called a mannerist composer. | know it at the time, no doubta learned insult in the eyes of the crities ig of the word ‘mannerist’, I confronting head-on, with a massive crash, a gre e that the creative drive can only find expression as fragment, as (if you \gmentary ciphers of this basic, intial explosion. So that’s why, in some ‘ways, many processes in my work might be perceived as being fragmentary recisely because they only find expression after the after the initial unity of expression and structure (which permits the expression) has been dissolved in a flare of energies. Working methods RT: In an interview with Joél Bons! you s: ing at your scores, you have the impression th your own traces. ou're very good at covering, BF: Certainly. And I make no bones about this. The surface can remaiApear) prow dur uy Supuouiadyo eYAA ZAqTeOIS ‘avpopied ut y1om yuadar MOK o} WORE UL Lf 24 Supumar jo Ayan, 232 yenydaouos ayy 7M LoReATeHOEUDP 400g au Jo juaUaAaRYDE TeUESILO axp Sey > St9S PaMIp alOUt v UE aDUp iaredsuen s,1 i snp soya yueLodurt A1o4 pue quedytusts diy e axe) 1 JT ApeInposqe “TM 2a. ‘ng ‘S9se9 Hog UH SORE aU;NOK FEAR Aes ™y Ajpanturpy amo ‘oSeuu aures ayy pure auo jo Nu 20 we,eAdjod BuNVAD Jo Ayiqissod yey) aAey ;paseq St >}Hom AU YoryAr Uo SUA} ayQ Jo aU0 stple, which ma periods of nfertil have taken two forms. One has been the imagination of sounds, more or less defined; when I've woken up I've tried to notate them, ly been rather banal and obvious, so we’ also had a kind of dream which has tremendously encouraged me 01 ry by the ‘me’ looking at open up these scores, and I s, can see whicl fulness gone mad pushing down into the e ‘And I could, gone di page score (perhaps less, pe narrow pages. And it was i for ary All instruments and all voices were passerine wityp wroxy uaryey st added auf Jo 9A ayp eM Avs 0} Sey ouO ‘Te JO ISI “AL 2tquoy os pue Sunmueyd yo sux) ut ySnonp o8 avoid ayp pyp saseyd yeyar puE ‘ssaooid 510m sno sear jeyn stueABidg-uoDy-euNU] adoid ouerd ayy Avs S21 ginoge autes anaid w soy jo ajdurexo ayfoads e aur at nod Ue> La -sauods asoup Jo uoR>oyau juEysIp pue Aasopeys A1aa Jo [vop yeauS v st arayy azoyar- steq yesaaas J0j Aypeur SuAeld st padsa - yey ur safiessed axe azoyp ‘aunsoy Aut Jo autos 38 Suryoo] 0 Ajaraut pappop | ‘ioyamnb uaaa warp Sukonsop nuotiadya 3S1y aU JOY “El quay anoge sump pure aioyy o€ qeyar aunydeoar oy Ysnx pjnom nog Os Puy {121 nox plnom 10 ‘IAD “ON “pauinoas sanau Aaup ON euawouayd anbrun Aoup aso 40 “Indau 4ana swueAyp as9Up PIC LL uatradxa ayy wus jou 0} SrA puw puey nog ut [ouad 40 wad v Super jo 3pe atp asred9q ‘SSunyp axp Jo owOS azeOU 0} a]qQe BuTOG JOU Fe 10 payensny Azo Sutoq pur Sunfem soquiowial | Puy qepes yonus os ‘oun owes ay) ye ng “pourjdiostp azour yonur os svad yE asNE9q -0> ouerd ayy weyp aarssaidut arout toad svat ‘Skea auOS Ur EU “ATyXA} 3 Jo zwap Supfeur axp pur ‘torssaidusod “UoIsUa}SEp 4Intervi Richard Toop 263 concept of the emblema - or Der tho salsa 1e sun, the moo a plocs of verte = an attempt was made ference, where I can relate back to t ions of the derivations. Each of these derivations has be- tween 1 and 13 different types of transformation attached very intense, almos ing place business of the: or did the knowledge BF: Well, let mestart to swer this question by carryingon answering the previous one. The second thin; ‘wanted to say in respect of my immediate con- erial itself? How can o tone can sce that material in two different ways simultaneously?ajor weau8 v Surxeyd sonour uns axp y>ryas ye ponds ap) uns ayp Aq UMOIyY San IS ay) ‘wiayp JoA0 Sutssed uns v st akayp LAY, “spalgo ay] ‘sjaAg| fe10A2s LO posodsip UunpEM YomauTey exoduI}-oneds yerydao WY, MSU, v Te | YM aavy J “shod padsiad Auwur waxy wads Sump owes axp ‘or0a sv ‘st ed yppraz 1A98 AMO ALE ALDH jepuoyp pu Stumpy Jo eda up P JO PULA e pnyan Tenoyeur yp wo pred og 3y109 ‘said Jo vopr aun doy oy sou, ‘tu pue ‘o109 v punos ayejnuUN 1eaq ‘Sorpnys aouessTeUDy 40 ‘Sompmys fearsAydeyoUL pr {gis payeposse soBleur fensed pure soe SaouaNYU AANLULLOS aUp | ‘auoyp 9q pur qeaud vane pu 29a sip paxolua | -uorysey ut ‘Kuu jo souvuniopied aun, 10} 08 pur ‘ep e sjeaut aa " fed | 901, jpHoe aynb a1os Yryar 19} ssoueuosas pey sti Jo 40] B OS "uoSied sty o} puk SLODKA sty 0} YOq “LUN 0} soueioduur aoquifs yeas yons jo seat no sBunp Spos purus weeny a -nppuod arout ypmut pure ‘aUt 0}Interview with Richard Toop 265 Ex. A: Lemma-leon-Epigram, p. 1 envi ani)‘seq e 0} uaop Sump neu 1 souuewr pansqe jeuayeUT aUOF-aAaNY 2ISeq JO spuoypexay Arejuawiaydiuoo oat ayp 194980) Sug Aron ayy eu puy am ‘aoaid ayy Jo pua ayy ye Pe} Lut puy ro }eUr atp Jo a>uiasso ax} SpeMO} UALOP PaoUt ‘SISO_UAS JO WOS aUIO3 “tnyiomod Ayjenba ynq ‘uty 0) sayavordde yuaroy pur ued ys1y ay) jo u 1M ABUA}ST| DU uo ampnuys pu {Snonp ‘ony jousar ayy spreaioy #pe9 2 NO UeYS PIMoys AUC -sHYp Inoqe SUPE) aios Broquaotp 0} won>artp aysoddo ayy ApeXo urestiidgy ouput uous quOM, YM LA (aU SEL YREM UI aoeds junuurfag ayp ye YSU ‘oxy | aay ‘PPA 1A 1 184 WoRE|NIadS Jo SEH yWaK auvo Jo jeap yeau e YAM ore] stip ut iow yy Suxxe9q yeu ang ued urexSidy ayy ut sisaB0x0 jo ‘yp UL amnprey e st ures: aeyar 10 daouod e yo uoHeZTear aUp Se 40 41 wy nox way oisnua Jo aoaid e se aunyiey y Zasus yeu} UT aanftey BNE LALInterview Richard Toop 267 One of the things that make Epigram both a failure and a strangel ‘unexpected success for hat writing was really not a desirable thing. And one reason why the Epigram turned out to be so short was that at a certain point the material tremendous power, becaus one another, and never because they are pulled bac And for me, this last part of the piece dem mate creative absurdity of the investigate, and have given the piece a sort of ‘happy end’ which might have been much more problematic than failing? suspect. ‘Here I Id dislike that. Of course my mus when this we meaningful 0 > mapas yendedness through an absol ly closed formal concept. A piece radiates out beyond its double bar; ina certain se can only have a m ive significance to the extent that we can postulate at least possibl ve ideal completions that never were.opninexa Ta zed tweriidg-woop-eumuray :¢ 3, uwug 992Interview with Richard Toop 269 from one performer to another, from one performance situation to an- ful inexactitude is one indication, one hint of the way in which a work ‘means’ RT: So interpret ures to reproduce a centri consists, to some extent, of different intelligent fail 2 BF: I would say this was true, yes. Unfortunately the si that the central text has no long-term text supporting us how to play it. Therefore it is our duty as isual aspect of the text and its musical structu the performer himself can attempt to tal ip. t defense mechanism against uncommitted performers. Is even ise-en-page, a sort of ‘protective commentary’ (in, e dilettantish approach? only one person play 2e,' to hear his attitudes and is very much in keeping with my ideas about the poss diversity. ‘The first performer of Time and Motion Study I was Harry Sparnaay, the second Armand Angster.Avid 01 x Ajpenyse noX vaya “Buog wes 1sfqeue feuomrsoduos agsuayut azo 0} poydolqns tnyy seas at pue ‘Awa je UT poywasd sem “UOISIOA Tea o4p ey ZaHOYS YeYMaULOS svaK yy HEM uoNeWaULAdxS YBnanp poy aX “Sjuoumansut Jo aduteULIO,Iad 3 poxeyd aany | ynq ‘avout Aue YON sgh “ded .uop nos Aiquumsaud asneoog 210M uMo Anos 0} drysuoH ear aqaoe- sna, s iouUopLed aip Supavy you yaiSax 49A9 nos OC “IM “spadse soxyo 9 Ayquaps 260)> seoueunioyiad aonpoid wio> 0 Suypaou e Jou Jo Apigissod ayy Jo Ayjenb apo-oytury a4p 50 oHP}OU Jo Aysuap “WuauIaAOU! fenueW 99.309 drys -uonejar oHorD jSoWTE ay} Jo ssauiareALe Jo AYSUAIUL IY SET I Jt ‘pananpe aze sojou Auew Moy soWeUL ou XfayoqduioD ysouUTe [ey [EM soUCULIOHOd ve yeyp so8uep ayy sXeaye st aroyp pur ‘aoueuLOyrod jualaystp aynb v aonpoud Jopun ‘ue> sauuoped uan Aue yey any Aqurey3> rydexo1g e ut ydaoxa ‘mou aur wos} s9aqos -watp peoroatp aaey sooard aup - aouaragaud Aur ysnf seyp yng “Loy prea arout ayy Suypue8or soouarayard Aur axvy asinoo Jo | ‘aoaid ayp jo sppadse juaroy ssojayioaau feaar yma ang “pasoddo Aijeouyourerp ysouye are Aes 1 ILiM paqaayyor) ~ Sutius4 coud oarInterview with Richard Toop mn BF: Well, I've never tried could; at that time I could p never bothered to put them al form the piece in a literal sense, although for some reason, I enjoyed conducting at o and did quite a lot of we the first performances of a number of my works that way." I terested in that particular tactile rela can be both em nship do you have to your work once itis finished? What ‘happens’ to you when you hear your older pieces? BF: Oh, Id ’ing to my music, not even new pieces. Gener- ally they sound pretty much like I expected! them to sound, so it’s what | wanted, and that’s it, There have been some performances which excited me tremen- dously, the odd few which I've always remembered. But on the wh moment I've established that a piece has the effect that I expected it to have, then in a sense it's not connected to it any more. On the the progressive definition I gave earlier also that past works also belong to that same body, and mu: be taken accouni mn. The degree of semantici of the materials included in these works, the way of looking at the world which to account, either literally or in the back id, when one carries on. Otherwise one would be doing an injustice f the elements one was working with at that moment. RI: Does a work ever surprise you positively in the performance, in the sense that you find more in a piece than you thought you had put into it? BF: No. Perhaps that just means that I’m not capable of perceiving more put into it. Sometimes I've been surprised that certain sou have worked better than I thought they would. On infrequent occas ben quite surprised and disappointed that certain sounds haven't worked at ‘Notably Prometheus, Firecycle Beta, and Transit.pour 1 Sunsaysq, pourduus-s9 ‘hes nok se “ueD ax0>s ay, ys Aouaredsuen Jo uonou Buysse ‘au 405 jenpe pey | asneaaq sdeyrod Du “pUvay 1 pu ‘aouiatiadxo asianau a4 09 st so\poue Sutag aoaid ayy pu Suny at ajdoad ysout soe) tom y su =ESOFTUCUT FOYIO SI! JO 9UO UF 50M ayy Jo aouaLIadNO snoIOLOS 94 O} PayejaL $Suq si 30 auds ut ‘uano sat Afarajduaod st yoryan aouteUO {gia DejouE yemyND axua U 1 1008 Y “St 1026 v yeIy¢ Jo ypadse auo jsni 5,1) ~ punos ajqyssod v jo uoreqasaucas pensta v 4es 590] 5 JO] Bur pu enUALaARIP ‘yBnonp peas pue dng ose siauayst yey “9su05 id es] @oueuopiod ejmanaed ut poztjear usOq avy O} sieadde Jey Pu ‘poataouo uapq aavy oF sneadde yeysr uDdsHJaq J1N8 a4p A[2e9}> 00} Ire Suquasaudar ‘so>8j Sursnyuod v aq ysourye Kew Kay Z9UD}SH] BY) XO} Inq ‘a7 “ea! 0} adwoye 0} Suro8 s1 sowUoyed oyp yey BuNpoLUOS are Koy, TOLUIOJIOd 24 0} eau Aoup yey. 0} uALAYEP ay st Uy ‘atoos ayqezifear Aisno1ago aiout ‘aBexaA8 Oxf JO soueayusis e aaey foxy 4 ano4 tages yeAp OU 0} 0} speq SuRUOD {LY 1 Suruwour yo Yio a4p ure St uOUIDDP aKp e POLL sey APU OAUEULDS Jo aarp axp ‘SDUEISUT 10} ‘poyeuL @P jAiaaey | yeIp azour 4ey nq “(pauaddey Ajreuors 1p OY] SunpAue 40 ‘ourjeg Buu yo SuNp Yompuey HUM po}2ay0> - ySnoyfiauss4Interview with Richard Toop 273 over and beyond its large-scale ambition: lief for the duration of the work; not to: to persuade a listener to suspend there passively, like some present- the world of that piece by dis- ow unless a work can achieve this, with that particular listener. Theref piece will give the listener that sense of aura, that sens of presence, indefinabl only a particular f my works have ave a very clear image. This clarity to keep hitting the ink th K, less this is accomplished. in a sense, what you we f view a decided advai on of a work can then be matter what RE: The title Funérailles, apart from its obvious funereal conno vvokes Liszt Les préludes, an transcendantale: Why Funéi than in terms of posing - a sort of objectivization of ten find, when taking pa nut especially large- that one fat one’s bodily presen the score I produce this story of a Martian landing on top of a large hill and looking down at a parade ground, watching these creatures wandering back- wards and forward: ems, and wondering, precisely what he Untermedio I.jo 2484 oygnd ayy uaas soaau sey YMA E961 Wo So} Yor JoLENb Suns v salou; ‘jayenb puooas Aut Apeayye are Anup “THF 34 03 “TM “A egeuend ysity podsoujaz Mou nok pinoy ‘121 nok poypesoq 0} seqeuog an06 sayaud 4 10} a4 0} SHON YS ‘TeHUEISANsUE ‘yT-OALUAZBATp ayy Way} soypeoidde atp puy am orn Suns axp jo arta ayy aumLUEXo 94% -uiaiqard azour yma uaag sk pads v 0} parejar st jua}UOD asoyar ArO}STY DISH UT sama aj ayp Jo ouo Sur9q se ‘umEpaut JoueNb Suuys ayy Aq poywulsse U9, deme oa, HERD Sus PALL Ajpeurq ab 4sni payfes aq osje [eM Yor = saHpAY ayp &q paryoog t90q ApeagTe sey IE - s1va4 Jo ojdnoo w ut yoxreN pany eayHM 0} Suo$ ux, pue ‘asje SumypAue y Suqpe> so 1ySNoY L9AdU | Ae enn arronued e azoup st 20 Asya Su Sung puooag ayy ayy pensqe A jeuioy fjamnd v Suisn wt axoy woRUaRt ‘Surqe> Jo yun 99 nok pic] y"END jt Sunyjowos ypu da awoo no fjpeuois -symsar Arejduroxa Ajqenba yng juaraytp UM ‘95,9 APoqautos Aq yno pores us9q aAvy pnod ssadad ures ayy ing ‘44 Surop au aq o} pauaddey ysnf yj ‘Sunead ayy urop uossad ay) uetp soyjes oe aareaD ayy Jo aup,p ost axp ype poafoauT Wj “uoRSoduuODA joqowour axp je Twodpueys INSAAL Mau e WO SuOISPap ASHE apeULI-ApeaL pe 8uiSpni 10 ‘suorspap oystze Sunyeut ysuze OM AIduuys sty ‘poyeSysoaun Sun -3q S1 184 ‘soouALIAd:® sty PLM ‘ou poo|g-pure-YsoVy ued “eorydexZorgo;ne 2qp Us 1 asne30q ‘TeorydesSorgomne Te 1 ust adaid AUN “OU YO) ag, um peorydessorgo, -ne (Aqjeansaypexeypun) ue s4r sKeM owOS UT JEU MeDLE JEU SOC] FLA “BxoauT 0} JULaUE sem aDaid Sup PAA uOHeSNsoAUr jo rsuayUT aanoolqns asvauT pue Aza}sAuu yJOq Jo uoREMIS 24 07 snoBofeUe Kp>EXA Sem SHI :FJasauO Bulag Jou sjasauo jo arwme ‘zou Suraq jo asne>9q jfas9uO aZOURL AK pul ‘FasouO JOU astas atts ut SuIIq pue Sg Rdouss wud ‘ioInterview with Richard Toop 275 iay,and probably never will. No, the ttle Sonatas refers of course to the Purcell connection, which many people see as being much stronger tha it actually is BF: Yes..without being they were very much in th is not one that had any partic call my pieces ‘Sonatas’ did at least distance them dition of the classical string quartet, because my idea in those pieces was to make y ofthe single moment, la Webern, which can be the justification of erms of our awareness, expand itself over an extremely long not being placed in qu RT: I remember seeing somewhere for String Quartet on the grounds that they consist too mucl without content. Tvealready done, more or less success! terstices of linguistic formu vacuum that exists between the su presentation - now that’s what I cal the carapa “and the subsurface generative structures. No\ things are separated allows the surface materi auratic* presence processes which are present in the Sonatas are presented to us as ex- ive means, whereas in the Second String Quartet the surface is very much P Yin fact, the 4th movement vas performed by the Arditti Quartet at Royaumont in 1992.auf wo 20a asoup Jo AymMUUAUOD axp AAs wD AUD *,USEY OSTe YPTYM ‘obvda 40 “treyug tt pouLiopiad ud9q soAdU Sey YR ‘ajduutexo 10j Aq apPAD ‘roe ys SARC eae ee eed corte ray) Spuo queoyruds axp axe YPRyss NOK |fa} 0} AUT JO} 49459 SI ‘ASLALIONIO) ‘avoid yeu au0919A0 40} Azpssaoau sean yp steak Aueur Joy yayenb puooas v ata atpEp | kya pu ‘seas attios ur Ssousnopsuios Aut UE poppaquio 10a SUP Saf 0g 40m a4p Jo aunyae5 a ‘9sunao Jo pu sIsuD [eu -sisuo Ayqrpaxour ue snopuauian atp 20s nod sj renodtut Ato {saouoy a8] 20) 90m axp SKvane preariog sdays 8iq o4p AION LA -eradnoay 45 18 10 p04 sc 12504 ON el eae prym aoaid oyped a eas, 249 atayan sty S| uoRUAHE ajqerapisuoD ETE OF aia ‘SouREg OM], 405 eFeUOS dtp) aqALUT pure ‘Se}EUOS “yhoge owos ue> pury sty Jo YoRTUYpar Jo HOS aWOS - YOM Kut p uTypLM yseay ye - Je sadoy vax8 aavy | ‘auTeyy ay AopuN suLoU ap Jo vontuyapar pue quouudojaaapas jueysuaD ayp YpEM ‘2H Jo pouiad 8uo] {Bs0A0 “410M 0} 0% OH} Ing “ssadeud pazytesoUAs e ynoge ¥Ie) 3,Ue> aUO 0s ‘esunoo Jo ‘aray diysuonepar yuarayp e saonpord Yao Aroq ourey} 1a8e| & 30 eg Pepe 240 stp 9806 -sip Aquapeo] aavy yrs sassao0id paraddesip Apeauye a80upInterview with Richard Toop 27 homme as being the end of a period, rather than saying what were the decisive steps forward. | Suppose you could say that the works that come after that were steps forward, but of course forward only in a linear sense, and because of course fone always tries to work on the highest level available to one at any given moment. for composing, and fi- the Time and Motion Study series) was the to RT: Can you say something about the forthcoming cycle, and the title: Carceri d’Invenzione? frictions and lines of force which project eats ke ut beyondnejau sarfioua yeaypadsid payeposse ayy pue n diysuonopar ap - £3 somos ypNu ag Ae uwana sdeysod jap aveds jo up snouva paydope OUR YEN uO ax “BUT juaraHIP Ut SaAyastoKp aUyap s rio, Jo addy yuaraysP soo} po uo STeLATLU LETS BuZzTEN pu “oujoue avo Jo aJoU SuPyey man ‘siaKyy Suayp asnes9q AfEWOZUOT{ “Uo|SUALUTD [LOND ayy UT PU FeTUOZ, “HOY axp Ut YOg sIsP aoaid ay Jo aMyeU axt|-UoosuNp, 949 5 ‘sroAup juarayp Ur asaup jo SuoneUIg rea pur ‘shea yo AULA v UT poyeNUATapp ‘TeHA}eU aULeS aUy Asn WED patie ‘anbruypay jo suonnadax pesoyy avy wi seq v Aq pours sured quazoyip yng ‘“ayoys puv Joyoys Sun, 8 st quawuTLASUT YP 40 nF 0S ‘puna aw YL Jno paddoyp axe suon -fadar aso jo apppru axp ways sjuouias ureyAD 40 ‘spua pu sfurtutaq ayy {pry ur uonnada jenaed so rexay| p89] uarayp jo soseyd jo quoummusur ype ur uonadar oy) ox sSunp are aro, “auuy ye swpSuop yuarayEp 205 ‘ATUDIOY jp W anumUOD puv ‘Sou ferOAas PeuDyeUE sey HOICUL IUES OU) HES | yetp wap Apa yf sayeut y auo!ZUaAU,p Haase Jo SurunSoq ax, “uonnadaa jo adaouoo ayy seat yor ‘uonsuysuoD zejnoAed auO YpLAA SuD|OM Sem | ‘yea y,uSaop Ajensn ay ‘uOReARS ‘urea e ypia prey jossiseq amp ye JONDEASUOD JeY}) BAarTOq [ LMA St- stlostid, 10 suoaSuNp, SDL /9sINOD JO ‘waore3 - apn ayp yo-padse Joyo ax, ABoyeue preaoy-yySreNS auO sem sty Og pal sSuiuM payayo> - y8noyfawey unig gizInterview with ‘hard Toop 279 le Carceri d‘Invenzione allows for the gradual introdi elimination of microtonal materials. This is very important harmonical orks, certainly in the BF: They're articulation types, yes, that’s true. ion begin to swing around? And did it swing the course of time your attitude to microtonal become more systematic, more integrated? we harmony on that page (which lt entirely of pre-calculated, ‘microtonal chords. So I would say i’s a question of degree rather than absolutes. RTE If you use microtones think their perceptible qualities are ated way, does this mean that you ‘grea as those of tempered intervals? 'Page 57 of the published score.: « ee 24 Es Selene = : == be a a) pg aE ng Te fg — t os a Se eer = ce 1 = cacomeumncan mio eeu RGIS asd ephaida 3 x, para - y8noyfiowsay uvug —Interview with Richard Toop 281 Do you expect the interval of one-and-a-quarter tones to be registered by the listener just as precisely as a semitone or a tritone? major 3rd; if a major 3rd is slightly out of tune, it still has the quality of a ‘major third. e capacity under jone in the way say. I mean, you say one corrects mis, to what purpose the major 3rd is there, in what context it finds itself, with what other intervals. I'm thinking now he strange beginning of one of the movement where the guitar plays a minor 3rd that seems ever been quite sure whi RT: know the opening you meat sounds very odd... that it depends on the consistency with which you use them: how closely the last example of the same interval occurs to the one you're now listening to, on the type of texture, the type of motivic or non-motivic texture within which the the let example of /e any composer w lacking in his ser is one component ‘an organic unit, and the sameshutuas yuesua> urEHAD e“outoyTUsS 9 -aid sanaqeyan 07 SurBuopeq re synoU 8 pdoad 19 KepuoNSOX preay{ a9 Sy kt 4 FaKO aN UO INg]“oRYSEy © ur ueY JMO sBuIpunous sry) enjdaaiad ‘speuow afi gainsy pue uo smaia mod Aprejnonsed pue “ay44s jo uoysonb eq aUIOD aM LD 21 ain pur ‘amyso8 ‘21A\g ‘ad&y sup jo saouatiadxa aqqussod snorsaid pouureos aoa Apeasye sey purutaip ‘uondaoiad sup Supqew ut ‘suonepadxo sn Aq, pauonrpuos uaeq Apraure sey aovds jpensqe A(Sunud9s sty 8uI098 jo aoua -Hodko afters sip) tara yeu os penSge s9ADU ySOUe St YPNS Se LORHESUAS at ypnut Araa st ‘au Joy ‘isn uondaoiad ayy, ‘spurur ano ur suonemutiad Jo syos je Ys ‘au08 aavy am - vare yUCOUT ¥ OyUT No SuIpe9} = 1No sm\p pa[LOM 2a, eve y9} aay auenbs aped ‘afuer 10‘SaK sO JO JOA} UT YouT aU0 arenbs aS 9M ‘IV 9M aIOYM MOU 3,UOP 24 arp ut dn ayes nox nb aBiuens Aro e Uo sare, ‘ xaquoo b wioyy suoREsLDS sno JO auO Aue PEN|SGE aM Jf aNOWOD Dayar oy sXvape st punog “punos sn{ Jadu st punos exp Avs pH Xo sno[n>4pir o} 3 ae} jNSMUL AML INq “SI aLDK, MOU NOK “19M Ag {,SOA}OSUIaYH JO are aye} [ILM SUNOS aYp PUL ‘>suDS tp Jo are> ayLL, S,[JOuNL SLM] Jo ‘ua “uaUIA]283 significance, relating to the sort of emotion we are meant to recognize it as representing. RT: Its an Affe BF: Yes. Now it seems to me that a compose ind writing down a gesture, is attempting, ing and looking inside it were to draw that ges terms of musical notal iconic representation represents this thing or RT: So we're back at what Boulez once said about Messiaen: that he doesn’t compose, he juxtaposes. back atthe stage where the the banal contrast principle, or some kind of chain in some sort of more-or-less interesting order rents could be changed round without a great deal of form-building means whereby very often interference to the gen only consequence of a sort of new conservatism, in which they are reading ir ‘examples of rondo formand passacaglia form, they’re writing symphonies again. This sort of neoconservatism seems a logical consequence of this monadic contextlessness of the single affective gesture. They are forced to impose an ar- bitrary, extraneous, and very academic formal structure upon tl lated instances of what may or may not be authentic expression. RT: In these pieces, it seems to me, the gesture and the form appear ‘meaningful to an audience only in so far as they’re known in advance. And to that extent, ike throwing out known and appreciated lumps of cheeseop ued auo yqnop ou uarA ‘ApaRpalqns yeouOYsTY Jo suoNEsarUEUT sey -ted uo ayenu20u09 0} paredaud are - op 0} SurrurSoq st uueUTYDe] 9A9170q Ise - ojdoad asoup ye yey) uM | Puy "palgo a1qesn “ajqenaidde 40 ‘2jqeumns =uoo pure 19N0 JO 108 duos 1 {CU ideo v ynd nos asneo9q ysnf kup -BuLes seat | ey APM "Pep UL 08 yaduED WELDS aBeIDAe JY JO 1 cour sastidins Ajpeou yey LM sayjo ayy ur afte ‘suiaes JooyDs YOO ey 19ey BYP - SIAL pure uueumtay>e' Jo naryuBou woismu ayp “JoouDs [se ‘sour aur sqi “uonows zemopred Aure ueyp 40 “tuaup Jo Aue 4 asneo poo8 Aue Suraq arauy wey queyoduun 1S sayAayy SUNOK vam» ssowe SAL twoneULZOyUT Jo yunoUTE auTeS ‘ody aures axp jo ajdurexo saxo Aue ysoury yey puy ad pazyesaue’ perp ead 3495 Aidaop qnop ow ‘repnonued sip AdAG ayy soAaEY ‘onewesp & aq 0} juvoU Seip “eYYy, ‘Aes ayy uorSsaud ~x9 Jo souo89}e> reioua8 HuneaD Aq Ajduuis oqwoeUE awIODEG S9ApPSUIOYA aXe ‘shui h eas mic eaeInterview with Richard Toop 285 call late-17th-century to early-20th-century music-Ger- ory’ seems to me to be rather... questionable. One of things I'm trying to do is to distinguish between the gesture as such, which in itself is an objective, material-bound presence - we can examine ‘whatever level (which me-one can write in perfect Sths or whatever: that’s not the question), and the figural aspect of a gesture! Cfigurality’ being itself a sul the figural way of construct against one another. One attempts to so construct gestures that the parametric qualities of which they are composed are into the world of the music, as it were, into the future, the future po music, at the moment in which the gesture presents itself, So at the moment in which the gesture actually dissolves into the future, certain parametric elements, which owe their original raison détre to having, been embedded in this gesture (and therefore are no longer isolated quanta, floating, free-ranging, nothings, ‘quarks’ or whatever), are released in order to be able! in different ways, orcoincide: situation is one in of parametric thinking to generate gestures, but the gesturally justified, free-ranging em the thing which is justified, firs that some of these particular favored parametric elements at any moment, how- ‘ever produced, must already be attempting to subvert and to which they belong, They must be at least as powerful as the gesture, and this to jump the gestural barrier from one monadic n elements of that gesture dis- vidual with other parametric layers to form new gestural units. ef, Form - Figure - Stylue juequg, | Hooxey Jo uogoes Sumuado ayp yseUr NOX WAKA “LAL jueayudis nardoydap emmy EUR} WUE ASN 0} PUDRUL AHO UN | ON SE STL AL pouzaoua9 ag ysnut SMvIp YpIyA aunysa8 ‘Kes 0} uBoq 0} | auoYZUaAUL,P HadIe ayH] LOM & UI ‘NOK 40} AzessOD9UI AIsOLAGO S11 7e4p Ur 0} SUIDDS HF YsOM UMO MOK UT AMNYSOB 01 y>Eq RURLOD [131 ysuoyarduioo pur a8en8 asouf Jo ysour aywuruaa 0} adoy ysa8 aovpins Sundaooe hq dquo yeu dUE 0 Lioprpenuos Kem ett attr 0} sta98 puataytp 280 214950 Ayeununuod au, "sjaaa] jo aanustid ysouu ay wo équo ang ‘af435 50 1unUOD uTeLaD v 0} peD| PaDPUl S9OP SIAN JEM SIBOA say sud oY ‘u2oq aay Y>IyM s[OOYDS, PaTED-OS autos Jo 9seD dxf) uF YDS aAvy J yd9DUI09 Areniqze pue Sunjedde ue aq pinom snp spunp | asenuey pexsnur uours0s, pojfe>-os ‘paztezoua8 jo 0s awos : spuey ~prpolsa}Ut Sip 0} - uresBtdg-uory-euUI] Jo pud ax YI ‘saypuid Jo uonngunstp api dian v wouy Sutaou surese soop oud ayn aroun ‘summup ayy upEss seq, sseaq ay PA ‘red sofeus asay au Jo pua up 109 00} Fe 05 “pULOGAOY Otp ray asap Aaa saUtOd0q Jostiap pue z9suap sowor9q Sunum j1ed-ony atseq snl so peaysuy -RunLIM s suum, poyo2j}0> = ySnoyfiowe wwug 887Interoiew with Richard Toop 289 in terms of your relationship to a large-scale history (although that has to be thought through too), but through the way the paths, particular elements, and vocables in one’s personal musical environment develop, ei (in which case you have t cl ly by deconstructing the piece c part he devel ship; rial potentials of the parametric subcomponents themselves. And it seems, therefore, that whatever style one writes in, one needs to have this continuity of diachronic consciousness, which one attributes to, and from which grow all the auto-history of generation of each ‘of the vocables we employ. We have to validate them in personal historical terms, mal historical terms, and those of the vocables themselves. And I themselves employ lange percentagesAjpenpe ayge 9q 0} se Kea v yons ur ‘uoREsodutod v Jo - aut] xeq aJqnop jeuy 249 = Pua ayy 19A0 40 ‘aunyord ayp Jo affpa ayy saA0 a7o}L0U o}ps v SuLop Jo (aIqede> 1 a8enSuvy ay} 20) ajqede> ar,nox ‘aBenSuy] (onsHIe Jo Yos ue 40) jeo}sMUt © ur sarious YyBnou ayeam ueD nod Jr Jey SEM Y>ryar ‘isn UE 30} B jNOge auBnoy 94,1 yy SumpawOs Jo yuNy axp au aAe8 Je Puy ‘paprraid ampord axp Jo a8po ayy pry uoHezteuoneEsox0 AreaqHe Apaa|dUWOD o4p pie opdieo parssaudxa ayy PazoAoostpar | uaa sampid asoyy jnoge Wp UO puy -sHuTeAsUOD feULIOS sTOHp 0} 9 ang Supyunp yo Aem ut ‘SquOUI9|D aais 10D AqyBty Jo uoNeDosse onsuOUUELE je siwok Aquanyy 10 vaayy samyoid ayy MoUy 0} J08 ySIy | Uy suooun aut paysarayut Aqjeoybods axour yey “sone s9WHOD auO yey 0} spear auO pue ‘umo TU s Apoqduana yey} astias au Ur ‘TeWop “poe sf tuoneanow “1988 1 1eup seo “asoddns | “Su SHOMNOHXANYS NVRIE esSunpppe aso1p 0 won Sere ayy sea yey gsouEstY MyM SI suoNsN D1esOI {OL GAVHONI (9861) dOOL GUVHORI HLIM NOILLVSYAANOD NI ‘ANOIZNAANLG RWWCarceri d'Invenzione: in Conversation with Richard Toop 291 ‘o modify, to change, to show in a different light the world outside the object itself. And that would be a sort of idealisticanswer to the question of what does work of art mean, and what is it for, what does it do, how does it express? RI: Did the idea of some kind of work reflecting your interest in Piranesi or reflecting the themes that Piranesi, and the idea of a cycle come muse glancing through some ‘our sketches, something for Carceri d'Tnvenzione I seemed to have the ttle ‘City of the Sun’ BF: Yes, that's right. At the time I rediscovered these pictures, working on the piece Superscriptio, which as that doesn’t use the same fundamental ight chords. It's very typi 8 production of a pan of the secret, sul Twas t ticular piece, and then It certainly wasn't that I saw the luence of pictures could produce absolutely no illus! describing my central expression in art in derives from ion. You can only act freely in a meaningful fas! are in a particular space which has been to some extent mapped And this seemed to lock in closely with the things which my Piranesi tations had suggested to me. RT: Should one take the three [orchestr: Carceri d’Invenzi wouldn’'tsee these three pieces as being the core of the on television in r you produce or you play the wl the right order. Ths is very important, The only reason I gave the same title to‘appa ay jo argruraid ayy ye 1] auOFZUAAUL,P HaDTe> Ur wed ofOs axp puE auksowauyy, n yxa]U09 stu UF pue ‘aoHDed feuoHENzerd Jo Pog sae] yoru e ay) ups. woumNsuE a4 AUTIPAL O} Sear payee | Wey ToS Jo Suppuyar 34} auOUr aduO jUONED oy SULALY HM IOI & POON. aney | ‘suonsans aod Jo yea ut YIM awOS st areYy ATUTELOS Sung é joys a4) YSnap Bu08 Fang] aaeps a[qyssod auO aq 0} pauraps stp pur ‘Sadaid J2490 paren 1 aneTMuns oy eA pis aysoddo aun je EYAL Ng -asuAs SM UT ‘Og yYBRUE AysIOAEp era AyquN JO apr ayy yey /squautAAOUT UT sadoid a}LLM OF SUBALEE Ley SuNeSASAAUT Jo vapr auf Ur porsaigqut Azan sea | ApH autes ayy wax Surat Aq asn. poo’ 0 ind 9q, pynoo S40 Aemsue Op 0 Sues aUO s 0} soi} au0 Aiqenaaur pue Wn eoUTULAS [ou Sigg poyoaod ~ ySnoyfiowag uo 262to think the instrument right from point zero up as I had do nugh the bass flute piece, of course, to a certain e enzione I followed on in time very quickly after le way on the tai Trecollect, before you got on wit the rest of the ly in a sense. First fore Carceri d’Invenzione I was begun. between t i |, Superscriptio wasn't written be- having confronted mysel Lemma-Icon-Epigram, and | © piccolo piece and decided the first sound of Carceri d’Invenzione I had to i simply rather fortuitously followed. The more 1e more ai you recognize yourself 50 I was worki ranscendantales series. RT: This seems to be the part of the cycle that spread out longest, in terms f actual t of repose not in the nusic itsel) for me personally in approaching it, between the other major works, worked on Etudes transcendantales for some three years. er major works should be seen TY specific formal ploys of each of the move- nents of Etudes transcendantales. In a way, it was like a widely spaced-out1st 4 Py rut posoddns éjpeursu0 pey peo ur estan] ySnoua seas y8nonp a Aure> PANIOSAE UO AA, ) wejd yeurSu0 ayy SuruopuLge og ‘ayqyssod aq y 1s ayp Jo uonednao0a1d padsa ‘Supjumny sisoypuds fnOM PAIL UI SEA Jey MOH ne-nue ue ‘opr sneuoyne ue 1od yea ayy yng ‘SjuowARSUE fenpLAsput punare paseg sapr4> ait aAey Pinos nox yeup Sea S9pMyg ay) 405 ep! [eUISAO NOK MOY 10 JeYY St a}OU werd ayy Woy JaquIBUTAL OF 1 Sunp ou 2p SUIS B UT UE RUODOD aqUHTAS A TUOULTEY aU SEAT Je paTUEM SuLALy UY 1 snoyMyO} ayINb Jo SALAS v sear yey yearjeamyso8 jeoor “wed Ku UO so81ej Jo papbop | os “ainy ayy uo ayenuaD Si nym ‘ondupsiadng wai fe pouraas ayAts Kur 10} ypryat aiquISsu aTeUNY] JOLLA, ay JO Paul {aouaiquue Jo 105 1e4p 15988ns UUSdOp asIMOYJO YY aoard v ut ‘gfor sofeur v UT ysIpIOYpIsduey v BuIsn jas nok puy Stuappns nos prp saoueysuunauD wey 1apuy gun [eUIAP.O Ue StI eM “dauap are] Aza v oy ‘a]quuasua anboreg-oou & S.A YY StaIquIAsUD sapNyy i IMoge SNomgo A(SUPILNS SI eYM “TeLoUD UE WIP} UoKSIOAe anos pu yqUTOSu 2ISNLU WapOUL, jnoqe axojoq ou Pare] aN LOGUE | I poureuwiat osqe auf 303 Areap, suompayar Arerp yeord) jo aouassa ysasuap ‘Parent {juo jun payeztadu09 puv UMop patog Apastaarad Axe sSuiim poroayoy - ySnoyhausag woag ¥6zCarceri d'Invenzione: in Conversation with Richard Toop 295 a certain extent - not entirely) simply meant that I had got a different concept of balance of information, between movement and movement, and cycle and cy- cle, but also that the actual techniques available were so much mo ifari- ous than I had originally conceived, that there was so much more freedom available to me, that it didn’t seem necessary to be quite that didactic. RT: How about the words? Were your words ‘pre-found’, or in part evolved for the cycle? t texts were taken from a book of poems by Ernst Meister, who belonged to the same generation as Paul Celan: one of these reductive lyri question of age and so one starts thinking abo maybe that... but and wha ives ita certain permanence, as against "And also, one of my old i what extent itis possib language in, a more general ludes, or takes note of, or reflects upon, other forms RT: What is the relationship of the text to the music, or the music to the text? Is that an answerable question? roach which would deny ex suggest - the idea of music as a eA YIM SULT} 07 SupOD ur ABroUa TenyuTds J0 SHos juaraytp 0 sured quDK (yas “lappey $.qode{ v 91208 Jo Hos v :azaM jT Se ‘KyMUIAUOD UDxOIg JO [OS BtHOS ayeALD 04 £2} Pinoys [ep “Sm aA 0} SUUOS Drs Mp AIL | Ava ay UY pu ‘ISM at IMO pref are s}xo} au) AeA ayy UH PUL ’S}xa} Jo ad!oyp auf UT aU 40} uEYOdUTT Ajsnopuauian sem yf puy “SMorfoy Af I) BLUTES a YY “SULEOY A -A0) iduoo are Kaup puey avo axp uo ye WOYS Os Surg savaid tp Jo eapr aup - xe9p> aymnb st was sey ap ay UWP siuoUIaAOUL wry souran ACL a ‘SULI0} JrOYs Jo aouanbos 1 Jo ued ysoBUoy au S31 ‘eM poo’ v £q 994 auoLzAAU,P HaDTeD 2 42) Aqjemoe NOYEM SpIOM axp 0} po 1b sem au aures ayy ye ang ‘auNPNUYs [eoIsMUL ypryen aotoa ap 40} Ananso8Ens jesnyso8 jo ww0§ & a 1 poysaxoqut 4Aqjear sem | ‘oun exp ye eouarqure yemmysaB pue jeoor auUa stay pu seIado Ipisaa quo ayy YIM Jaaay ayeauid v uo pordns.0 ‘Sunjas aanetjadde pueCarceri d'Invenzione: in Convers Richard Toop 297 t quite serious problems which forced me to come to very radical solutions. RT: Can you give an instance? BF: Well, yes, I suppose I could. Song 6 one would have to take again, in that sometimes major parts of the line are allotted only very few and v rapid notes. Or it might be in Song, texts are radically broken up like the shuffling of a one with the other - that the relationship the voice here did the other poems come from? The Alrun Moll poems - that’s a poet I don’t know of. BF: I was very impressed by the poems Alrun Moll had been writing for several years. My original idea was to take entirely Emst Meister poems, but I felt after a while that there weren’t enough of his works available to me which concern themselves stones: precious, gravestones, natural ston 1 formal or express concerns which [had already been working on in my ima of musi pes and textures. RT: But how much actually carries across from one work to another? I know that apart from Superscriptio, there's this sequence of chords which is common to the whole Carceri d'Invenzione cycle; but are there also sets of proportions which are taken wholesale from another movement, and then used as raw material to rework? Or does each component piece have its own. proportions and work with these? Iways very strong, par procedure rk and the next, without their being literal used literal repetitions, that would be a mere dédoubl mirroring in a rather superfluous fashion of that which was already present. What interested me was taking basically different things, and suggesting their2tp aseo semonzed su ur puy wy uodn pasodunt wiaBeyens jeuonssoduto> jo {Hos autos Aq aouyspx9-00 oqur poruoy Buaq saanndsiad ajqueduroout Ayjerqnut ain - aampadsiod sea “pres | sv “our sisazaqut ypryas tsouesty inoge sump a4 JOU MoIOS quazms ax uaasNjaq SaPEISO 24 OD ~PAO UeD ay JeYA AEM e Yn UT SoFioUa sty asodstp 0} pure SHUN feULIOJ sNOA au a8ne8 oy 40% p saqeua yey) ABraua aaneuLoy YM INO puy 0} {10M snp UT au oF uEWOdWH At9A sem [OR jo aoueySqns sHeWIO'A aXy aUEDDQ [HUN LOABadaL Jo daoUIOD Kur umop poljsuuny Ajareroqyyap | [] auerZuaAUL,P Haare ut ‘S94 YO Hg smo Jo apard soyjo Aue ur ueyp azoxy uonnada Te101y| Jo aauSop soyeau8 v sary, gsypuo] uasoyp yim ydaoxa “HL SowyE are Yoryan sreq Hapre> ut yeyy asus ing ou St PUY AL qc -sod se aouaiajar-roqur Jo suo, jureAafaU JuALaYEp AueUE se Pury 04 ‘adaid YL Ut ‘sem sjosuu uo paoeyd | suopousar aip jo aug sisnur kur ut Wadax Jou Pu YO ‘@aouu 0} pu} | asned9q Ajduurs ‘purus Aww jo punoaSaroy auf) YOU J ayy ur pey sXemye | yorym Bunpawos sem ‘Suneuosar “Suuous jo ‘uonnada Jo eapt oy} aurp ajouon ayy asner9q ‘SOK Uy I PIC] “9I04 zofeur v Avjd oF Su108 sem 8 ua “OBe safe au Si seus snorago Auoa v sévjd HOUT aU ST IEUM EL wep “toma nog saquiowrar nod aatssaudxa ureysao v aauap nu! JO Bapr ue ysnf se yap v sem aoard ut] -uaouop ypryas ‘aoerd amy sseq au DALI Suraey asnesaq AjureUL pouaddey etp Aiqqon eonuapr yred a8 Axa4 ut Sea sadoid Yoq Jo aumonAs TUNA 34) pue ‘Teoquapr sem sooa1d yiog Jo aumanuys n euos>e1> “anbrupay dope oy An suum popoj1oD - ySnoyfiousog ug 867Carceri d'Invenzione: in Conversation with Richard Toop 299 idea was to make relatively clear on as many levels as poss referential potential of basically invariant material; the material literally repeats, how often it repeats approximately, how often it re- certain sort of varied form, and so on; and what are then the levels of potency which the ear can bring to play upon focussing the intellect terplay of forces which these cyclic interlocked repetitions genera in the cycle as BF: The function of Carceri d’Invenzione IIL is to extend the idea which t the basis of Superseri 3/10 and 5/ as changes of tempo, but as changes of mi of the cycle (except the violin piece, which works different way) there isa very major part of the pre-organization of the piece which is involved With the variation technique imposed upon cycles of bar patterning. RT: I don’t know whether it’s accidental or not but it’s the piece where Iam most awa very opening one, which sounds like interesting that I was working in Carceri d'Invenzione III with Whereas in Carceri d’Invenzione II I th a duple irregular metronome; and Carceri the first section to be very explicit about this. of the brass instruments Piece is to trigger new types of troduce new woodwind instruments pro- Bressively to produce a wedge-shaped build-up. What is perhaps not quite so apparent is that there are three levels of trigger action, of impulses setting off sequence. The tenor drum is a group of brass instrume that of the bass drum, we single staccato impul one meter/tempo cycle. The second has a different articula that itis playing a long roll, and there can be long, the brass, though they all start simultaneously: The third laye of the bongos, in which, because you've got five different pitches, you can have ulses simultaneously, so that as well as triggering the brass ' start simultaneously), the bongos can play a certain number of impulses ip to each other. So we have these three types of tempo: one tempo which is progressively subtracted from the basic tempo of fifty-two, one which is progressively additive (I think it's adding three per‘adey paprooaiaid pue ayny sseq 10) auKsowouyy, anureudp :,amnb, $u1aq se 4 208 4 ruryAAYL Jo eENSANS paurUayapaud AI uy We Se PalopIsuoD seAK 1 MaIA dood. ue ey se poardioy qasuas e ul YSnowp “Surpua jamb jryaysey, v sv jo WySnoyy 4, Sunpu jamb oqe Jaye Wey StF Ayo pue adored wou) sayyysuen 88ns ampnys onumpdys aid PIM Ur ‘SOy>}Dys atp UE WOds 9A,NoK amy podsou sng ur asraaiad st aooid aynyy sseq auf 61 1101 [e Suraq se sip Mes | uoRIOdard 91, 40 ZI, v JO 2RpOUUL NOU OTL fRANg AJuAPPNS Ap apqUTASUO a]OY a4p 0 DOIG feOMLIDA at ney Apeaye 2% J auoZzuaAUL,P aoe Uy suOHed sujaUu jenp Sunddeyz9A0 lwoup waai8 p, :Avm stip ur swioy omy ay posh APeaIle Pey | IY BUO!ZUDAUL, Madre Ur puy sasUt afeos-odiey ajdun ar pur aiout a oy pur ‘sua ‘ay 40 sn0j Sua uorssnarad ayy puy am ‘ton20s. Puy ‘sSunp say0 re ‘UOHDUNY 498314 ataKp Jo Uapuadap ‘Sappswtoty ayeur Aoyp ‘soajosuroyy uy sauniy JO uO} ay UO Soyer LIEK 81q os st sasndut jo zaquinut ayy apaid au Jo pu a4 18 2s0tp jo poqdxo azout pu auour $908 anaid ayy se puy Pp Je9)9 1 Supyeur punox8y>eq axp rea Jo sad} yuazaygip pue amyxay jo sad} pur sip jaiaytp Aueap Supnpoud jaagy-to¥%uzy uowssnasad /sse1q at assod ayy au ae 1 24 UF SoAoUE YpRyAA uO SaraUN lay ue (esian aota 200 BuR>eNGns s1s9yYO Up SEALY ‘OUI YLo oymuTLA SSunyLM poayod - ySnoyfauiay umig —301 different parameters in Mnemosyne ~ the mother t piece. As far as the title is concerned, the name of the eponymous ancient Greek goddess of memory the Muses. It seemed an appropriate title because it for the las lowly (and for the frst time, as an explicit harmonic progress the eight chords. Is a sort of cathedral-under-the-sea type of ike the Debussy prelude, in which everything is moving in slow | and is reduced to a lower ea tape being played slowly. express this particular quality after something like that, to start up aga 0 in this case that the cycle has evolved over such a long period of time that there areal other resumable threads that have been thrown off by s: Ihave this series of gui ‘ve never had time t { write a symphony?’ One's thinking already three or four years ahea need these time-spa [have to live my cre functions. ‘Kurze Schatten Il, completed in 1988. Ck. p. 139,ty Sean araup Ing :19}204s YN Axe aS pu ‘o8uOy YoU rpUT ue se jueoduT ayinb st 1 ‘uogisodutoo sip Jo anyea onaypsae wary a4 0} suTEP SUAS ue aout oy Surysias ou ISM “(LV 99s] wORoEPeNnuOD quaredde wi Bu19q og uananyoq PopureUtap YOReUTPODD JO pm [euoMOdaud jo sapuasiNa au waassyoq pio} pue >eq Sur jenunuo> 9q 0} paou sroULIOpLod ayy etp os saxpNy use ASuapucy sip Sore) ada jeu aX, SADTOA TeyLOUITLASU OM ysodradns aspaid ayy Apoexo Aroa Sutuyop InoypLAL wed fenpLarpUt {ys ybads ayinb sjusumysut yjoq soai8 juourAoU ypads Aiaa qe uoistaunp sejnonsed sn uodn putt s,rounopiad aip snooy 0) popuayur SuonemNsyuo> sKUyAAYE DyDods Kian ABUT strequoo jued ainy ap ‘oun awres oup ye AfSMOPSUOD SUA JUOUIAAOL Yes ‘souatiadxe Sumuses| e ATjenuassa sea siya “o0} “sadaid s2e9 auf a4] ‘Atsnooueynuurs S ‘OsINOD jo “emMyeAOIOD LM UoUTLIOD ‘sdeyrod ‘ary sjoor sit sey SoM sOHe nog Bursodusos Aennse sem J a0 UL ypnur sey surei8idy, yoru jo Sunocep-yinut ax ‘Moy 2iRioua resid 40 wo} oreLtea 40 ‘owoxpurped ay Jo vopt waar Quayepapun sem surerSidq © wonssodwwo ayn ye\p soMupUEY, a18eq jo yds aYp ; Seu > IQEIOU v O} paj OND? joamyeu payouysar Gan ayy 7eyy UL ysod v ag tana Aeus too soyreo a4) e SOUT Jo aN Sem ST, JANLOD feXoduuD} Jo nHeZIteRIO s adard ax 10} ssa] ‘AaUtaLIACXo PEO} 0m HM pouiodUa> YonUut oo} svat atoMe Kay 1 paouteape ins 1 SEAL 320M UMO Au “YS juno eax afeU 0 Soo} a4 pEY>eT | YMoUp wos ‘ye feu JeuAS yHadaY OKA Jey AeA [eIOU8 e UI Poorsiapun | Tenjound Ay A fq ueSoq | pu “juassud jeqo}s v ut pay meadde paoprsud> e wox} no Sun}as Jo aoureyD ou SeM axon BY) Os Aton Ajqeat seo punoiSspoeq Au eup saquiowtay O} aAey nox :44 auonsonl Pinoys 2isnut TeuEs Jo suvaK Ayyy Jo 1084 awaNXD JeyAAaLOs a HeeUt JEU} S9OP ‘SLO DayaNN atp Jo asn ay, e 30 4eads NOK WOULM Vi uwojqoud aanepar v seme st Aynoyp souttoysod suo> pynioat Aoyp JULEP 05H ayLAIAN O} paLeD | JF IeIp IDOqo mPUOS WOPUOT UT (NaS) SIS, MON UonoWo,| af 40} AOS ayp Jo Aan o4y OF SuNMTUIGMS 1OQLLOLIOS | Summ popsoyoy - ySnoyfowiey unag s0¢occurs again in Lemma-Ieon-Epigram, but riocultural significance it has a much more specific his the early works, up BF: I was superficially familiar with the very early pieces of both. The first four piano pieces of Stockhausen seem to me today to be unjustly neglected, and I had examined the Second Sonata of Boul Similarly with Structures: this latier I had heard live on one oc mainder wi somewhat later, pure paper mu I that the extremes of dematerialized energy as characterized by Structures in the Second Sonata were eens and Flrecycle Bela) large and small scale rep ometimes on the pitch level, whereby new layers are function more asaureyy Aut yo Aaxfenb uwajosd ayp ‘ssoutuado, ‘3nsau Jo 39s juauayp v ayb pasnp [NOD Y>TYAA Pjay e jo uorssaudxa auo snyy juonbasqns jsooup Ae X18 4 {uo pey | sousow0s 1 aay Seat | YRan Ysa qiqissod euorysodwioo-aud ph s90p MOF Val spomauurey yenjdaouoo pozsjerous8-Ajysiy © ~ay aannuud yo uon>exout ayy 20 sy snoyauuoyg jnoge Suny yueoywusis you oy, “scl Jeyp Jo siduosnueur pouttoyradun ({jp8ze) pu ypnuu yuauidojaaap Jo oui] aip 99s ‘auns Ue | ‘PInoD BUC) “SUID A(8uans appar sydaou nuLepUny aWOs YBNOY ta saDoid JON EO aKp YIN snaqpaworg 222d 0} st ZoxaMoy “uoReUIPUT APY “SOUL OM, 105 EEUOS a4) 10 seyeuos Jo spied ayy] ‘sadaid JayjO Jo aypung v YL sjuawIDpD AueUA soxeys snoupjauoug 124 palo|unoou tayo suorssauBoud p pure saoard ayy uaaanaq suoneiodo Sur Coup ye4p pur ‘uoRN|OAd euonTsodu yuonbasqns ayy yey aut “pey avy you ys Ys uo St Day [1 fe urejureur 0} pant aip uodn uoRUaA juowoSurdur axp woyy “you uayo ‘asare suOTI0s ‘uojeunp ainunu-waaysy & Aq pasoduut spuewiap np sey Asno1aqo Yom axp “ySnoy SSOU}LML 180q 0} ‘ue8oq yoryen pout v Buidojaaap soquiowiasInterview Philippe Albera 309 of experience. On, primit Prometheus began to outline a sort of ‘practice of theory’ which surfaced again much later in a quite different shape. in line with what you just said, one has Piano Pieces that follow are somewhat regres he feeling that the Three ement of the s ° autodidact has not always the perspective and i predict what will bear fruit both now and in the future. The core cor is piece was the dynamic Lnification of texturally diverse movements by means of a single und tendential process. The first movement is characterized by a very febri ish leaping from mood to mood, the interlocking of series of o ferentiated tempi, and the employment of an obviously rhetorical gestural Vocabulary. The basic elements retum distorted by changed juxtapositions ancl temporal disten i a series of impulses, Where I think the major difficulty in concept as such, but more in the i le ‘On several in fact approached the triptych idea again, but o Motion Study group did I succeed in ai because right oceasions in later years [ in the case ime and ving my aim - perhaps precisely e three component works are also independent entities in their own BF: I didn’t write orchestral pieces earlier because I was pretty consciouspeonpaid Ajsnoaueuods azour puv uorysey Sutzzeuones Ajsnorosuod v ur pasod <0 squUIaya asoyy dMsKaq SuTuTeHAd LOISUA 9n>o[eIp axp St aunzej 1ofeU v aooid snp uy 'sSuspumauins jenxaqu09 sToUp uodn juapuadap Aijentiassa staxyo ‘snouiouojne aq 0) ySnoud aie] Soule owiOS ‘oejadnpAe atUeS ay UE spUE] -Hayeur ay PnysUED9p ‘sonyend) snod axa: 30 208) at} Uo ‘poutiaDs azaup - uouorow azeiedas Jo yda0 paysnessip A294 auresog | ‘au awos sayy JOquIDUAL 6} Uha9s poutiopiad Ajremoe seas paraydusoo | om) 2 0 s1eq yyy pu paxpuny attios On 430 seaK © paramos ‘aansvout jenba ut ‘aq, Joy sarsequey, BS ag JY BIUU SEIEUOS aU) Jo ; uoneUIgWOD jeRIoUNASUT SM 40} jeUORdaDXD JoYEX St UOISUALIN a4 Ypmya ur JouENg Sug 104 seyeuog oMp Jo adUDLacxa ayp ADLIOE| “Vek SOW Popua}Xd JOYS [[hs v o}UO saduaLAdxe opeuL puuanar Supooloud ur poysaio ypnut seas | y8n0 re snayjatiorg Sutsoduioo Jaye pur Au UI ySOUKaL 259K, Surzojo> fewuatemaysut pure roystBau ‘aoutewvaddl jo Aouanbayy anbruypay 0} Surprosoe paysinSuystp ypea ‘Ajsnoourey 200 suorsod Se uoas ag 3ySnu aunUHOY UN 49 9159} e7 “UONDAS Y>ed JO} saIqUI nuxoyduna ayy Aq Ayaatsnoxs ysouyTe payemone st ssauSaud sp10m jun jueoyruss Ajje>rSojodoy op siadetd ppo-Ay103 si “ Tepuoyp jo Jo sdnou$ ut ayezoqeyjoo Aquanbay suaumasut ay Ayzeap9 azour wana st appforday ny 70.745 HES Joip] pur 5951 jPsauO aved, 0} wea] 0} Sey aUD ‘srouunu aoueystp-8uo] a] ‘aury jeotsnut jo spouiod Apanepar Stu sdey cod Sunuosaudax sofed a8iey Buy Jo 5804 feaHoead ayy oy sa!Riout Bussodwuo> sauo asnipe oy Ange aup osje nq sjuowunaysut jo a$pazaiouny ayeUTHUT Ue AfUO Jou Sumas 4450) xojdus0> Ar99 v st] eASOKPUO 405 ALLA «) MOY SutMOUy JOU Jo s3i HUM, po}a|}0> ~ YBnoyfiowing woL4g oleInterview with Philippe Albera 3 ‘moments. It was naturally the series of connecting materials composed towards the end of the work process which became significantly enriched by the extremes of the earlier fragments, like the gradual accretion, layer by layer, of the mate- rial of coral reefs. PA: Did you define such elements? indalized, by the very impler the premises, the is a work which possesses, in comparison with those extraordinary maturity; it seems perfectly successful from BF: I agree, is precisely that the sort of ‘was talking about earlier actually function here. I found some sort of productive confrontation. Whereas in the Three Pieces there was, basicaly, only ve already managed to accommodate sev- ly. Not only that, but they also succeeded in n overall framework permitting sitions to transform themselves, step by step, into one another. lar opposites I connected to the idea of the Baroque sonata? Venetian Sonata, as in Giovanni antiphony of transformations rather than the there-embodied spatial distribi One might, I suppose, sce Epicyele an isa Brevis as amplificationsnoe Y] “SES ISH snureapnep ayy Sutnp yred ur podeyd ua9q pry apaoidy ‘seyeuos oy) or] *pZ6] UE UaEq ALY YSU HF YUMMY | Ash gpouopiad 381y ~ apdordg. pue seyeuog ayy - Sfiom omy assy) arom UUM Vl sivof osouy Suunp Uap We astAad pip Janat | 4p yy “aSureyD epuey sofeur | souauiadxa punos ANP 0} aouaroj—L YIM suOHUA|UE At UGUOD 0} aDUEYD B EY J9A9 | AI0Joq, posoduioo araat sso ‘Kem ayy Aq ‘toquiautas 0} [ryBsN si reyOp [eqUDLUNAySUE [ey auianxo ayy Aq sypadsor auios ut no paouepeg sem sdrysuc "uonNquysip [ex}stBax Jo ssounPy|dxe 49859] 10 19,8018 Jo 10 ‘sjuat -oduioo proypey jo somqua ayy usamiag Avjap ayp Jo padsat ut ‘asinas Jo ‘args -sod are uoryndiueuijo sy0s je yBnowpye ‘ajqissod Se aouiazayoo ajqipne yoru se yyia sdnox sruoydéjod ap anquar 0} pio ut asyno ayy Woy) Papua Sea Uurso}oUr oxy 10 au YIM ypnur smore ,pavogtoy, snp savay> 0¢ up HOD HasIno ayy LOY} jo Aouaysisuop Buusyapun ayp sway NOs appAo4dy Ul Ae gampnus ‘uonisod puoyp ° 70 wads nox yar onuouurey axp doyanap nox pap ‘Teuoreur ads ypns yan Suse, -wuopayp Jo stseq at se souD} a0} 40 aay “yi8uo] ayy pmp-auo Aparou Jo som v ut Suymnsar ‘ou owes ayy pu uO Je PLOY MOYELIOS azo Ja4p0 ue zaye auo padeyd ta9q avy AqTeULIOU pinom Yprye SuORD9S azo JaHTENb, fuu0 appAord Su sioquious Aq ‘j2ed ur ‘papnpuo ‘UL‘Ypryan sjaytenb [edo aN YpLAA 13} jenba ony pes aoaid sauuu0} ayy ‘Saou0 pamnqmnstp Aq[en -eds uum ayezado sy10% oq aout “ydaouo> feuoydque wuarey Ajsnoraasd oxy JO a atInterview wit 313 ightly less addled than the former, since the sections played were at least in intended order, and a much larger proportion of the piece was played. A record exists of the ‘version’ of Sonatas played at Gaucleamus in 1968." should Perhaps emphasize thatthe choice of sections played, as wells their onder was made not by me, but by the members of the Gaudeamus Quartet themselves Considering the, for the time, unusual difficulty of the score, the result i if not compositionally - was really quite good. The first ful jonatas was at the Royan Festival of 1974, which was my fi iad already begun the Missa Brevis before com- m although, in its ori ought of the triple choir layout ing of the Gloria were composed with groups of four lapping, {reatment «frequently two lines of the text are being, neously in different registers and with contrasting types of articul the text underlying individual movements Kyrie and Gloria, for example) verbal component. into impenetral masses which eventually break up under their own expressive we movements make i aleatoric nature, whereby ocks is undermined from the asynchronously-cycling re- zed. temporal frame. The de- PA: Firecycle Beta is, in a way, the last piece, and # this ‘first’ compositional period, ing gr score of Firecycle had defini Hea of the work was quite si jomenon of ‘ he second, central part of up were composed in thei ly been c Twas concerned with the ph form was to consist of three secti Cf. discography, p. 497.oypa8o} syuoumaysur sioyjes 1opnpudD UEWI ayA [HUN Joyo axp ISUIeBE Ayaaxy Ajpiaidutoo sums ajquiasua sop npucD-oMy Ye “ad4j JOYFLOIDYY 1g, S15 Uuodn sounua sty 40) juapuadap puoses 24) 0M ye ale SHOP APUOD O91) ‘OPIS {pea uo ‘auayat UoRDes aIppru ayt]-ezt@ped Buoy v st aiayp - sIOPNpUad ayeredas: ptm tduaay juapuadaput ut pasvojar U9} sjeusyeur yuarayp aynb =a are sdnou juapeainbo Suuys of ssrovad pure puta uOd Ose PEF v - SHUOUE podojdura ensoypro ay, gt ~-sdnax8 asoip ysSuoure uoptsoddlo jo wopr ayy pu ‘sdnos8 quarayrtp ju eASaYPO aYp Jo UOISIAIp axp UTEBE AdUO PUY aM YOM SKN UT Ved 9589 150 yssod you Ajduns are sup ureya9 aroun ur uogesynsnt yim Aiqeqaid pur “ padoyduno ynuur ¢Z JO uoneMp F YO ayer ATTeaHaASoR Hf OYeUE O} eIBg UT aAN odsiad Jo saSueyp juasygns are araxy ‘ase> Aue Uy TayAMasuN ApuessAdoU ATOM jeursizo ayy Aq paysadSns sowauyxa ayy sdeyod “unp peq v Aquessooou JOU St sm, ‘o810) v surewiar sn} aovid ax, ~pasodusOD ar9M. tH 50 Sjuowifeyy a8 ySnoyp tana ‘porajduoo 1949 ses od 31 ‘Sunuasaidar uouorout axp “ured puoss J aveds ayy saa0 yey pur ‘Ssojaunyeay sOYeE pr peordde aaey pyn 90 2 Apsea v oy uotp Sutped| ‘uoneiado wat e uray 1998 yoo ¥e xajduioo ‘asuap Aro b ud9q aaey oy Sean yred yS14j aK, i “De pasearour aavy pinom say suomp9s ayy Jo suoneIAp anor ayy pue ‘ayes unypteZoy & 0} Sutpuonoe ifeuoqep poztuULBs0 ‘SuoNIosqNs UT DALY OF 88 eas eis = UM 1219Interview with Philippe Albera 315 one by one in readiness for the next coordinated section. One needs to see the orchestra as a sort of flexible mobile whose moment-to-moment configuration in large part dictates the treatment and flow of the textural substance. PA: How is the coordination of this superimposition Is it controlled by a kind of harmonic field? textures effected? BF: In one sense - perhaps a rather restricted one? - ‘harmony is not a ly relev. fh sonorities, which tend to will be permeable to other Where a sonority is built up of are idual pitches, the same rules no relevant for three or four-note chords, PA: What is the connection between the title and the compositional process? around the empl of a rhythmic nature - some me of which function negatively, by forc- ing the elimination of elements already defined. This was actual pearance of such devices in my work. These asynchronously came together at certain key points, thus generating a fairly clear pattern of generation and decay. This, combined with quite extreme tempo with the multi-conductor strategy I already spol tendency towands ch This major effort (some 2 1/2 years of continu eeling, cycles esthetically speaking, there is no believed that a consequent attempt to approach would succeed in producing the sort of density id always been looking for. and force of expression tha PA: Many of your works bear significant titles, with moresoampedsiod osiaxrp ny 0} sa88ns 0) poem | ‘Su0gy snp IMOTTe Uy raULLo}Iad axp Aq tasoyD Afpayy OuiaNbos Aue Ut (1apUO pes UTEUr ayy SoU pasiadsiaqur aq pynoo suoHd2s yuauOduIOD foquey} azoUL Myo ayy ‘snoOS x ysty ouo ‘sjeua}eur Supses}UOD OM Surawamsayut fq MHUDUE Se au Bu0g ureasg s,expuesse> souo8a}~ snoues waxy Suse od App ds ssoy queaur | ux) yey AG “OZ6L punate ‘sreag asoip Supp yutod paxy e ses wopaas jo ydaoui00 a“ yeuayeUr feos ezeS10 ou 0} SuNepar sAeape jng, ‘suuz0y eorroydeyout ss9y jurexysu0> pure wopaady jo s{daou09 a4p punore so}ua9 wag app AOBuL MoTIOH YAY oA SOM ax Jo Aawolew OU Ved -Aenuasajax quoueuruur Ajpeoisnu yo wiyeax ay joy Aur Sutmvap 4 109 auut ut SurMsas a 180] Sula} UF PURLU atp JO yLed w yo dew 0} 3NO 49S LO Ul twoy 2oaid ype “SAsTuoNpeue amb ag prnoas y>rysrsomod A1oqeUtE|dXd Jo Ajsnorqo yore ‘purus ur pey | Suny ‘SoBY o[PPIN atp 40 stota POM aK 0 Sel BUC) “Uo os pu “umpying-japout saroyds saipo soyesodioour pue spoyar ‘uouowouayd ty ur Aear xojduoo aup ur poysaxoqut ‘SuruunGaq ysnf 1st seopt punausyeq Mau Jo aremv A|SurseaxsuT awueD9q J ‘possed aUUT) yssod waaq Ajoaress opayTTY pry yey SumpaUUOs - spunos YL Ai uourtiodxo 0} ayqe se | ‘Suorsuajaid ysopow jo ysrINY v sjasAur aL 4 2iNY Of0s 205 aoa1d w ALM 0} papoop | se) HumU}aysuDAO JY LON} UOIS BAIp JO uLios v se ATTeNAUy ~anDe [emydaouod aatyexOtIa8 YNs Jo SWUEa) UI LO Ponous pease poy jag apodoanty Jo 02s axp Surjazdusod seas | ISIN, “sroyo weap 2oepINs oy aeaU smperedde aayeroUas sto Aaxe> savoid ouOs ‘asin09 apply pauteuiay pey uot Ih quasaud Apeayye ue yptar 9 p 403 saoyyMs SOWITUIOS ADUE|LDS 40 PUM ax. y ‘peas anvy | Sunpowios jo asneong aoaid v y2e¥s | woo Ara) “aq uonerogepa Jo asino9 ayy ut readde yorym saxBoyeu ansai oy) 20 ‘amyredap jo suuiod Aqjeatseq Soup ary “suoneonduat peony sSunjUM pojsa]09 - ySnoyfuag uoug oreInterview with PI 1e Alora 317 approach. It is clear that abutting different s ance to performance leads to highly contra: reappraisals of performative energy distributi minimizes conflict, for instance, or ‘mented version which empha: isto each other from perform rontations and consequent ‘an choose an order which liberately go for a highly explosive, frag. 'e changeover from one section to the next. freer sections have a not insignificant role ly renewed, for you, by means of its differe ly surprised by the number of formal Piece is able to reflect - maybe precisely because supporting skeleton of the directios freedoms in formal layout ations, from player to player quite differen ‘The other piece I composed around amine the same field of issues. This was an organ piece entitled Sieben Sterne, referring to a woodcut by Albrecht Diirer depicting God the Father of the movements require performer di ind the final order in which component fragments are heard. ‘Then there aro tne ha ich, whilst providing only minimal information to the player, Squire him to play in such a fashion as to make the result approach as closely * Possible the sound worlds of the most precisely-notated movements, The ly to the organist. es of choice to the interpreter? Was it a recon- ideration based on the experiments of the Boulez-Stockhausen-Berio-Pouseory the early sixties? BE: I saw this as one possible tactic towards e ly from behind terpreter ork’, to adopt a concrete we, seeking consciously to bury it again, © the demands of the work context, Although > emerge more ersonal stance, w ) productively reintegHA PIA pauteay ‘anbruryso} amtoyeaiasuos ped v Jo asus aanefou oxp ur quosaid mnauSy>eq Jo HOS SI, ‘punaxd>>eq p Aq pordnaso uonsod ayp sop Sur 9} at] Ya 0} Surpuosoe opeqns pue jaudaaqutar yostuny 1asoduaoo ayy 14 spad ynoypiat ‘st yey) ‘aed ayy uo st yey. Ajaspaid PEN HUD “SUONEHIEA OUT LGA 949 94 PINON aI04 unos yoeq sty} ysuree payutodonunod st aanpanLt #8140 ayy Woy Parouiar SuORBIDUDS [e19A95 synsou au ej Moy “yons se uonejaud ~zoyUI, JO UONTUYapar axp 0} uORNgLAUED v se poytoydxo supp jo podse snp sey moy aas 0} pounwuzaqap sty ad ayy jo apnume oyp ur pauing uorssaudxo jenuiajod Seo axoug 3eUp puresrapun o) we9q -ayd peoysnut xojdutoo Jo uuioy Aue ut pos. -Avige weumy jo sy ayy Sumypeas soUNaUOs ‘u0H -noax@ Jo Aqnoyptp jo aauBap “pawe2o] axe sjuatunysur ayeudardde arya sareds yout yo aug aoueuosas Su] a4) saroU8t Ajaanpaye soBessed sasuap ay) ey SHED a4} 9g PINoM yUEAdf—x aLOPY + 405 35E -Svaut autos ut pouyjap Su9g sv ponSie aq yySnu yuu Sa e ‘PUEY AOUHO ay uo ‘snp uF yn wos aq eur azoy) pue ‘juoUNAASUE ayp Jo IRsHDIDEIEYD Aros Jou st 2upLiM arp ye are pmnov auo AIqeqarg >Yeaug weYTUBIs v ynoypLeN paded 9g pynor suog29s oxy ‘somes Sax poztiayndiwos WUINSUT Ue Uo sey 0} IY] PnoM | -sjuEISse LONERStBar o4p uodn apeut spurewp snopusuiay auf Jo asneoaq UN te - aovid sty yo Suapuay 4x0} eysHes & pvoy Ajqear 1anau aavy | ‘sidwone poof Jo ajdno> & uasq aAey azouy SSuyuum porso1109 -y8noyfiuay wg sieInterview with Philippe Albera 319 Suppose, actually compose their pieces with that contingency in mind, I cannot say that I find it a very attractive state of affairs. The fractured, disassociated stylistic panorama facing a performer today simply does »w the performer a great deal of opportunity to plunge into the interpretational implications and Sublleties of nuance of each and every composer's native dialect; itis really up e rel notation to per- tent, form or executive difficulty, what sort of practical interpretational deviation from this particular norm might be most fruitful ith my pieces often start out by feel red precision of the image; very often, though, que and the # the piece simultaneously, yer comes to accept great deal of personal creative freedom of ap- proach and realization is implied that could not have been suggested in any ther way. A n« and programmatically deconstructs the izes the mind towards aspects of the work straightforward image would not be in a po: ‘ork in his own image, not according to via the academy. All this is not to say that certain of my works do not approach or (in Capsule) deliberately overstep the the humanly real- zable. It is largely a question of mental attitude, nind to reflect too much ahead of the performativ re a bad inter which a seemingly more Jo. The performer recreat the notes are not preferable to 60%, In any case, as I say, all performance is impreci wr negative sense. 1 music the interpreter is y uusic, he always remains He only approximates, imperfectly, what is notated. BF: Certainly, but I don’t accept that a music ined precisely by any form of notational convention wl xhaustive notation only offers a semblance of prec s where to put our fingers, say, fering, perspectives on the posi mnection fe same genre, or of the same composer. Un- me the unspoken ers, that particulay jure more ‘the piece’ than others. But this interaction of defining levels of entity is constantly changing; it is part of the whole problem of stylistically oned primacy of certain paramayy Uy = you 40 = paoyar sv Ay qensia yo aaiSop yo drysuonejar ayy ‘Aq payexsuowiap st wiaou09 oures axp Jo adse ayy y “AouaPYE, JO ye] st ose sty, "sAINPA} YPOIg payeUaLEAEPUN ySOUT ayy O} “spe9| uoIs -saudxa pu uoneynoque sdnox8 anoy aug avoid ‘ppm ut Kem ap ‘ear | “poy e Aq poompoudas sem sdnox3 anos poyesedos-seneds a} so auo Aq paonp 4 np jeneds v pey “aqqypneun Aqjeonpesd ‘saoueystunaay [euLLOU J9pUn “9st iqussod sean yt ‘poyriduun panedutoo ayp yng. Apmis uonow pue aut quatudojanap axp ut spasKur ym sy quondanay pue won, uy aS yey — Jo sueaut Aq reunures8 feuoRe}OU v L9}O 0} vA “HL ur ‘ture ur ‘sanbrunypay JeooA Jo Syos senor ed saftey.) ‘spud autes ayy spremoy ansind 0} sonpp Joujo sey soutiojsod ayy 1e\p st UwaLL SaOP IF eYMY “SAUOSa}LD feuoRIpEN aroun Jo s0aey ut aprse yt paysnd ytowout v.20} aay | eIA UEDUE USDOp “ysNOKA ‘podse [euoyonsuodap sii J0x0 pasop Sey dISALL aYp Jo aDejINS axp asneD jetty ag eu sty) faxay au0 UO é,raIsv, Yoo] Sapoid yuada4 ALOU ay asuas aypads A1oa e ‘aut 10, “payen Ayestoaid av -ur Supnpoid-Anuopr ose st shy, ;poyeynoeD a aunb st ynsax uspunos eR|De oF ANoWEp axgeuopiad jo drysuonejar ayy [ex0U8 UIPhilippe Albera 3 sounding result, because there are passages of q Parametric polyphony in individual produce an effect halfway between snergized shadow. For my part, 'm convinced that the most straightforwat Thera notating a given action does not necessarily produce anything lke the effect which a more detailed, deconstruct Iytical image c has to do, I think, with aura, presence. held chords a FA: To what degree was this work influenced, in one way or another, by vocal works of the sixties, such as those of Schnebel or Kagel, for example? BF: Although many precedents was a qui ms of articulation and recom- syntactically meaningful synthetic units. By notating the tension of the throat muscles, position of the tongue and separately-rhythmicized parametric strane former that he or shi ly such, not just reproduce a more or less complex lyphony’ in the interp essential component of the expression, PA: To what degree might such works be reborn from a prior gl ion? BF: It depends on the specific context, I think, how far the horizon in ach instance stretches. What i true of the performer is also valid for the cere Set. Certain preferred aspects of a situation are always defined in advance, 'he order in which a series of decision-making procedures is applied is, I find, for the final result than the precise nature of the proc. ist as the performer could attempt a glob: f a particular complex osition to find a 8 an event which encourages such an ap- resting, though, since it tends towards the pro- Iways audible in vould notmeASIBat peorsKyd snp ose nq ‘aoua ju0 Jou st WHO, ‘pode | y>tys punos pediuoo ayy aonpaid padjoy aoeds yews ayy, 03s PRU aYR Ut ‘ozzeped ueHaUAA & UT aveds pa>ESUOD JoyyeE B UE SUM PossoUEM J9A9 | AoueULIO}Iad aatssarduut ysow ayy /oo} ‘ssaoaud atp sdjou \pIyar uoReZeUTerp USUIOWI-O}-jLAUIOUI Jo JUNOWTE UIEPDD v st aLoyL, svap Aiqeuosear suoHens Jo aouanbas ayy axfeut 0} aaras pmnoys Suruayst| paywaday qrqipaw jeuonDexD}UT way anquut 0} se Jom se ajqissod se Apreapp se SuonouuoD asaup opti O} 39 -P UI ‘sem >se) jeuoRIsodwoo ayerpaunuut A “Souias uorodoud zvauy} payeynD -1e>-Appyesedas 1noj jo uopisodiodns ax jo dn apeur sem yred ysr1y a4) Jo ULIOy reurs ‘a4p9804 1yBNoUg are suOAe| UST osoKp YY UE AVM ap Iu2UOD Jo SytrouoU apraaud suoN}AS UTED -ayeur aypeds sqjeououos Suuasaud st OYD YR 9s}No a4 ‘sypeds aymb aq 0} aur 0} suiaas pappaquuia a4 Yoryar ut JIOYD yp YP JOSS Tenptarpur ayy jo 9jou axp Jo von>esaqut op “oe pouONUaLt | Sy a “pry aa, aouauadxo oup s13ey) ‘yse9] 38 - uoRISoduod a4 J0 9180] aatsinostp ayy dse8 oy ynouytp sowt09q is1p v yo Suaoy aup ‘Sey UaYO auo ‘THT APMg YOO pue aU, AF 40M v UE ING “S9K 2 ‘uoperado snooueueysur ue sfempe st SuLreay, yey) aunsse ‘soma ue aq pjnoat 3] “spunarSoeq asiaarp oyp wo; punoue10§ aye1 HINES JeAp 40 stp 0 UIE DAL ENAUT US SSE O} PUD} jo ueds ureyad v Jano We} soUpex yng ‘MOY IUEISUOD v UT SIO4' ey} Wweaut 3,uop | saa JO UTeYD ayDeds yeYR ‘LORENS se|ON rapi0 Bupjoad, ayy ospe ing “posoduioo aross aup ytyar ut spo au) 0} Afuo Suyprome you uoRE|MOALE Jo s[oaat yno sos YoTYAr ssad0xd LOSE wos pidies Aza Jo wo} autos sasoddnsad sy ang “wustuey>OUL aaneisan Ryepuom Aqnay v st 49 ay, AjsnoouEUE;SUT oWNTE aoULDYTUsIS mprBsaty Jo sjpaa| Jo JaquINU poo v yno-BuIZ NST ureHaD o} pounge se ayy yey awUNss Zpeajooat st aBessour aunua yp yoryae ut ‘uondaoied pure sampeooid jeuonisodiioo asoip uaaanjaq UORDIPeNUOD v Ady 3,UST Vel ‘SAAMI JWOWOUI JeUp [HUN sep axp UT PAT] e SuP|OM AqLLeSsAD9U St aU) ;poaanpe Apeaufe yey uodn amssaid wax oF Sowod yr atoyy ‘aq 0} Suro8 st dn jeu yeorped axp Jo y2aH9 yp yey APILXD MOU, },uS9OP 340 ‘Jana] se[MoNeA e uo BuPfLOM ‘yeIp aseD Oxf tayo Say SpPINjOSAY sl ~TeHA}CUL AIH Jo sisAfeu SuIOSuO ue sondut YoY pouaus w StI] Vel $81 a soneInterview with Philippe Albéra 323 ave brought forth in any other way. A c precise boundary between amount of ambiguity as to the very conducive to this, I find. A: The second work in the cycle, Time and Motion Study If, places a st into conflict with his own discourse as captured via tape loops. formed, or broken down by his electronically rapacious surroundings, There are many other aspects in play here, particularly in respect of various models of the fasl which memory functions, how it retains, reworks, reorders or nates impressions. Some of the events are repeatedly recorded by one or both of two tape loops until they gradually decay beyond recognition; some tants and fed back into the overall sound some- that the soloist is permanently accompanied by ruined fragments ive sound and context. Contact microphones on the instrument filter and modify the sounds further according to whether they are performed principally on the neck or the body of the cello, and are themselves regulated by two foot pedals operated by the cellist and notated as separate systems in the score, Finally, a throat microphone is brought into action to ring modulate certain sounds by means of the human voice, singing and speaking. By these means, many individual sounds are actually heard quite a number of times, each time somewhat differently transformed. Most of the indi tions of the piece revolve around a particular set-up in th ment -at the beginning, for example, where only high amplifica noises on the finger board alternates with selective reproducti sion of small pizzicato elements at key points. Later, attached to each tape loop independently create diffuse pillars of sound (one arco, the other pizzicato) to which the performer has to further react on cue. For this he has to remain very much on his toes indeed PA: There is a high level of violence in this piece, perhaps even a cet tain negativity, or cruelty. Itisn’t far from a ‘performance’ that is at once musi- cal and theatrical, BF: In the course of the piece, the visual single person being tortured, but this de} and the innate attraction of theatrical underpinnings, stand back from offering an opinion there. As it ha ime with certain aspects of Artaud’s Theater of CruHun u aUIAHX9 auf 01 poysnd aq 0} 1wadde ‘Los ojos ur Ayqerou ‘uoREaudioy 1 pue uoREIOU UaRMaG drysuONEaL ayy Aq, poster suta;qoud YL, Vt HEALED WAY, OH ee ere equ s08e| Aq pues ue> 110M asaup Jo yey Ag jo wed Suna gaps v se pouusoyiad ag seaype SoM aanyy asoyp ISN Va p pours] avy ym stouLioyiod Jo saquINU oY} UT aseAIDUE Ue U9Dq SEY axOKp) AAU uuoneyonb eMe-Mou & 0 IO} aX tt puoaxg ye dn suany eu axp way ams oyrosnL ut ao uo yy os euDHD jeuoNeUO}STEN pu [euOsHodod posocses aqU SIaPeALYD snouLA ayy ALE: Ajpuuansa se0y] we> 940 aU seq Of0s 20} AEE “| APMIg WOH DW pur aur, ‘2}>49 atp Jo aoaid pu geyad 81 SI, Ved sovds lo) pue adj synods v dn Sugjas se yuounysut ap Jo 3u9 aueate 4394 29g axey | saoaid ojos Aux ype uy “sus, pout @lopaud weve UNPIM aAfoaa pue eIATUT o} SIopeILYD, unos a1p PIMoyE Diya SunpaUtOs - Jas a8eyS Jo HOS v Se OSIL eat | wonisodi09Interview with Philippe Albera 325 Capsule for flute. It seems that here you have deliberately surpassed the of the ‘playable’... BF: It is the piece which perhaps m explicitly reflects my notation- interpretation concerns of that period. U1 u f tune pitches, breathy, impure sounds) and subject them ms at least as rigorous as could be applied to m The score employs phonetic symt of the instrument in respect of the breath-stream as another, and so on. There are passages where a positiv occurs, producing, from bar to bar, vi often this high level of change in many pa- rameters effectively prevents the performer from ‘remembering’ ahead very far, leaving him in a constant state of ‘performative surpt memory closing in around him. The only wrong sort view, would be one in whic! ¢ you can easily improvise the sort yund world inhabited by much of the piece; many res I have heard indeed appea interactive process have been tot directed drive of the performer and a visual image re multiplicity takes shape. The score tri attaching most of the notes and actions inear energic stream by im, interrupted only ike a futuristic image onsistently tangling the performer in im- performer is moving ahead in a series a fraction of a second; there have been a lot of 's when I have worked with these insectile freezings and sudden move- ‘one way of transmitting the effect of eyeball-to-eyeball contact with events, of defining their ‘absolute distance’ from the observer, PA: We haven't yet spoken of a work that appears to me to occu ition in your production, because ofits deserved success and is, namely Transit.~-oyepy dq seaued w £q pasidsuy st ypry ‘aunuoy un ys9 aso} eT pL urese wre “uoueure afte Aq. ynopoos ax UAE ESMEAT, YALA aseD a4p S| Yon Sv HOIStA 10 a8eUT UE axe UAYO SHOM INO :VeL 10} $s] 10 saydunts ur yoqTe ‘asaLp saouesvadde ybruypay Aureus ey 1 quauidojanap Aut 10 {BU Up SYLOM L9ePUNY WE [ang HOM He axp Jo LOPUY sien up] jeoisnus ax Aq pauayo Zour ssexp yy 0} UeBOQ [21 rst Jo uoryexaqUT AsO YPNs UIE Pa aooid sup Surystury sayy ‘asoddns | | uoxoy utes axp Aq “todo Ajjooo sHuny saxo] ouyes Aijear Suypua a us sev ‘uodn spayar ng “sBuuioq ue Jo sureaxp pue Spat ap yejoy zouUReU UF SuORDUNY yng “WIsHEU yyy ut padeys you St Aun $120) 1ySiur ssadaid v ypns Jo yeo8 jeuy a4p ey. >} y8noue apt Sey UoIssnoiad pu sseIq aKp uy “ySnoUpTe - uoRFEUTUANYT 0} sa8eys Bu jeomuoypfe atp Jo IeYp Sem SYA aAneULIOS jE HOdUT “uorysey poz liom axy o0lgo aures axp pur uo Sunpoyjar pu Suyazasqo Jo sopowt astonIp penpes® Surrour }s088ns 0} ware Aus Seat a ‘Suny are sjpadse soxpo ay ‘uo}ppoys [ead e suo} pressyno UoISsaxSaud sp yng -supandoud ~ sip yp. porPDoLAyUL are SPPOUE [eUIIO§ 10 -nag ‘sazayds Spiemo) Ata1a pom oujuadodonyue a]a10U00 Dip woy uoReULOJsUTeH voy spuodsaxio> AyySno4 ssesq Aavoy Jo SUL I9INO aX RUBS pure INSt {yoo ‘SOpALD-F[eY SLIUADUOD OF Suo8 gout Ino pre| Bu se 9s Butaq s)xa} axe a1oup 20U1 Jo Supyoopzaqut jo 320s ayp Azwou azour ypnus soypeoudde Ap sanad ojos exper Atsnotngo asour ayy oy wedoqunos SuDUETE vse I prea O} -asoddns j 4uonaauoo sty sess awos uy Burp soypo Auteur prp Ose | YD ‘Suunp sxea aanyp Jo poued v pauueds yystexy, jo uonsodwoo aU, 3 a.Interview with Philippe Albera aur BF: Matta is a Spanish painter based in New York. [still havea reduced- painting, and somehow a very similar set the connection between the two experiences was ally developing - sometimes realignment. Each had compo all other organisms and usual timbre group. It was largely for this ruple woodwind and brass; iques in common with some but no stinguished by a particular orchestral jant movement of these sometimes very if not me: sto consciously search There have been well-meaning performances of this work, parti attempted to conjure up some the status of ical process. The best perform- ances have always been those paying undivided attention to the coherence of permit the individuality of the assert themselves. In performances without the benefit of section he individual performer can never get a real feel for his personal ing, activity, which you often refer to terms of an analogy with the dream, the elaboration of which we are not consciously aware, but which deeply affects us? BF: It can be thal is case that is largely what it was. When using the term, though, itis us lly asa shorthand for consciously organized processesd oumnjoa snp aag, HOM &J0 aououadya jenprarpur ayy Jo amyeu ay, os UR OP [ag dem ows ur way jun 8,au0 azqueguio Kpjuanbosqns 0} ajqissodu Srasodutoo asoup aqAeyy ‘9sy) Aq, paouionyUt aq 0} puunog st pure YM St JOLIN ayy Woy aBessoUL uradeospur auystuid aw0s 0 Sup ip aio Aan jt Se Pe Stosoduioo Hay pare} umngpata auf Jo amnyeu ayy Jo yred Up Aymajdwoo v SuNexoUes dn spuo (aut b Aiqissod v ut ways ojur aSeuu sty SutL9ysuEN Jo y>e palqns ayy ur Sunstxa you ‘sdey ue}s FunpoLuos oo payeaSu0> oUt Jo AUIATUT JO 20s OOS SAEAKTe St aNDULL eApparssaroud pay e aavy no! oda jo Jo uoyoU ayy 0} wAMYaL 0} ay PINOM | >yq Aqqenpe Aouedarsip ay a8re Moy se [jam st ojdua 0} sasooyp auo sues jeyan Sureaur penyxaquoo yo e v aL spadsoxar ut Ajand sea Sunpowos oq Aew aoueoynusis p ey 08 - AxTeuoHUD}UT 0} yuo spunos ay} aBtuexre 0} ajqussod ayy ey uo sdeasqe spuadop 3 ‘SunyyAue aq 0} juEM renoned soajasuuaup Ur spunos sf P JTeSAW | saApasuiarp 9g spunos Stimiaj inoge amppens sty &q a8pnf 0 ‘afie> njof soop wey, sysmut AzeroduraU0D 400} ayo aymb oisnut 0} dns | yuouniapuodua ut Aqpampur Aaa Stuo papayjas aq 09a 0 siakey SumPeDUT Aue ao AWW rod ur aseo v st yeng Sums puo> Atqezmusooas Spoamp urSu0 soup iyd a9 steadde uana so329 of music as an experience of that work and no other is a quite difficult philo- sophical problem. The postulated totality is a convenient fiction that is useful to work with. A piece cannot be defined as whatever the composer intended, ly we cannot have access to what most ould that totality necessar have found in the piece. The impo to suspend disbel the longer-term piece has ceased, singh there seems, ly very imperfectly amenal ought in many ways! problem was one of Funérailles for seven strings and harp, completed in 19 lles If uses material from Funérailles I and rving the way I actually went abo second version is a concretizat 1 act of composing, The basic process was Tconstructed a grid which I then over- laid on the score of Version One, already completed. This grid sepa i small, independent frames, com effect. Sometimes these frames would si 1e elements, would be treated more impor- i fascinated to discover that ted fashions, that tention or means of composi- ive archaeology, but before the fact ing the information gleaned to create a new context rather than recreate a previous one. Working, with givens possessing an amazing, wil of their own led to the production of an uncharacteristicpur syuedinied 03 ueour Soup yey ‘swore onqnd jen jo amnyeu ax ynoge Bu | wolsiay, 1/1 samreagung => >Interview wpe Albora 331 what might be their effect upon outside observers totally unfamiliar with the symbology involved. It's obvious that red by analogy to lis- tening to contemporary music! One has the basis of previous across the intervening space right into sation of outraged violation, at least for me. So the tit phere of mourning which might, I suppose, than the solemn, slowed-d | conscatieairea Teaa tainly true of the Second Quartet, which follows ee ianly’ and even de upon the indivi I performer. I per- a though; essential consid- mained constant up until they ward, being expressed Tmean expressive quanta bes central discourse. One might argue that there are vertical and horizontal aspects of the probl of the composition) the linear uni quite clearly or, as ina later passa; the ‘vertical’ relationship between theseajpsuioyy SOM 94) 18H {UR | 4eaP say -BuMeaouas pue Simpeonar voassjoq wo} Ajjensn ure | ‘jjasu 20,7 4p [aay PInoys Nox Sunsaro} papnaysuos are Aoup Moy Au0g are Som ay Moy SumuIe|dxo ut yySyop any} feanar sSYseLDL nod yexp Aes ourTe Pno> auO ‘Tom os sloswuTY spuIsiapun oYpa s9s0dI09 you oneurayqord Hayy asneoag SOM MOK ynoqe yeads NOK 0} uaysy O} SuNeUTDSE] SI Vel oidoy v diqegoud st yeyp ng JeAo}UL Ue Zaye ‘paraxoostpad | Uys ty @anpodsiad pur ABroua Ie: rofeuu v j pease poy | a0a1d yey Sous BUOFZUBAU,P 92x uanbasqns ayy jo anyway} Ao ang ‘seadde Aoyp sum ysxyj axp oxy Ut st sty, sreq [eUOHEL eur e are nuOqUDALIOD jar jeuoniodoid uO uaLudojaaap [epuoYP Jo sae] [eUON iddepiano £q paztqear st sty, zopaley suns 07 spalgo aup Sursneo snip uy ‘eds zemnonied e ‘auyap qua e woyy Appamp Anjaud soauap u A “won29s oypprut‘puodes ay) Ur Ayze|noneg 40s feotsnut AjaMTp ay v Jo WORE] -toads Jo aamos tp e way) punoy puv (uoRIsodwod Aww wt paonpoidar st am} -ohuys aynredin asoy) surajquo Anju yg] atp Jo wos poured pur ‘yin ‘speq JHY}NY wom Ajpenpe | soar axp Jo UON>Y oquIAS axp Jo yoodsax UT seopr sty Jo 2oueaafar 9x9 ayepaudde jm unuteuog 29)[2\ Jo Solio. We ySnowy uaaa ‘sa8eut pensia ‘urea81dq-uopy-eunuay ‘ood jxou Aw yey) puy | uepyoduat sso] aulodeq ary suoMLDOSSe feDisnuNENXD Jey panke SuIAeTy iq Aysnopuouray) st aous “48e) Jo 1405 ‘sy umrpour ja}renb ayy, ansst sofeu axp, mprins SueIaUDs st pue apa ay) Jo adBjINs SuIpUNOS ‘149 403 yuu st yprya sipdoyInterview with Philippe Albora 333 fend to cover their tracks pretty thoroughly so that itis difficult, sometimes le to retrace in the con steps of the generative process, techniques I tend to steer a middle course in that I talk in without necessarily giving formally I would never have made ter ones. Most computer-formu- the entire system be more or less laid on seldom works that clearly so far in out at the beginning. My conceptual advance. problematic tha istener, that situation is aggravated ly sounding simultaneously, as in La terre In such cases, relative audibility of layers coupled ear conspire to undermine immedi It is amazing, in fact, how rapidly theator yi ‘asa dass Aisi Sx PALL ‘auenb doo poystuy ‘2oueysut 105 ade} pure ayny ssvq 10} auASOUFOUPY aq PInOm BSED e YDS ssuonisodwoo Aut 0} paydde spaepueys ayy Aq yseay ye “Teumum a4p Sunypeord -de are pjoy uaaq aney 1 Yaryar 40% Jo adnoo v are axoup ATorey SOW ‘sjaqrered jenssasoad 10 “1ays1Sau ‘aaquin, ‘Squaumysut pare waassqaq aoeds ayp jo ssauareMe pasearDUul Ue spremo} SpUt ounaurered uaaanyaq a0U00N9} yp woy Aeme JoVo [UO a yduiaye | sase> yons up aou0: uonezuoydijod f uy Avs auos parour aay SoM yuada SUE YEU! AUN Tt Zaldys, mau e 205 Surypreas “uonpaurp yuaraytp v ut Kpdruge “uedap [TIM no JeIp ayqearaouo> ys] ZuOReIOU.IMOX Jo “ton|SOdutaD jo ,traWs4s, ano Jo 1uOSUId are nox yyy ‘aane0a0xd 1g v aq sdeyiod 0} ‘Avs BuO IuPINOD ‘Ve -y8noyp “pa -ons sKeae 3uop | 3ySnoup [eoysnus Jo SUMO} pue sjeLLayeUE eNpEApUT AYA JO aunjeu ayy pur ur Suizvaq ajqyssod se ayduuts se urewiax oy uapnys aBiemaous syjoue ue La\ReA eyEGeY TeoSMU UTE}ZaD v SpAeMOY pop yeep wed aug JonsuODAL oF uroYE o} [PYRE Az9A aq PINOM AT AE, GYM Aapcojdwoo ‘pouraoued au,nok se 18 sv “uasorp aney O} wre NOX ppue ‘o/snu poyeor[dusoo pur oisnu xajduso> udaaxjaq oRDUNSIp axp OPEL U0 xv jo uayods sdeasfe St 21ST NOX Vel yo sjutod 20} “U1 Jo Sout] Preanoy IM papaya - ySnoyfiauiag unig veewith Philippe Albera 335 empty ‘breathing space’ between e' through at k imagine that the trend will continue those pieces already concretely planned for the next few years, always dangerous to predict one’s own development. One thing ing on is a clearer differentiation of harmonic back. feedback’ between the two being perhaps more lled than hitherto. to ask you to writ piece for somewhat inexperi- enced musicians, with limited technical possi ies, would you be interested? now! That is not my personal field of interest, just as there genres - music theater tance - which would not be ;Ppropriate a things stand. 'm sure itis possible to do so, and I could imagine says of treating, say the open strings ofa string orchestra in highly varied way, On always make the richest, most flexible use of whatever means are frequently give students tasks with specific restrictions of this sort, hey concentrate the mind wonderfully!ou Suey ema weD | -woYp Jo ype o} pey | y>ryr - spey 40 - amsod -x2 ay Aq pouorrpuos jouea piday éjpiSu ‘Anjaod reaoysed Jo swi0) sou os pt p adda Aut £q possaudu fjdaap sea | i azxpeduia oF Aq eoudde Aww pasapuny ;pouuioyiadun pourwuiar dau pu (aqua [exo4p seas UO) tog Aq paoutAVooun Aidaap pa s SULINP 20100 ya SYL0M OK A nui (44104 194) jo uondunsard sod » Aue £q parojao éfesuaqtt snip JOU Sea pu ‘SHULL nasut Pum Jo sonsngissod ayy yptar uorednoooasd asuoqut ue Jo 3no KADOAIP vai saayso8 Jo antoyadar uso 4 Aqemisa8 aansoye JO ypaspaq SUIAPOP (PEN Por] ayy O} ssaD0e yeUATUTLL e Buudsyo Aep-uosaud soy pur sjeSupeur oN Ps paquosaid ayy 0} ‘aSe Joptiay Arewioysno ayy 18 pasodxo Jaaau sea | ye4p aq jyStut Jo4LTe9 JO by PLY ods quis sonfmoyp Jo woMaIax e UeEp JOU amua ue YL eIuOD Jo Pe] [e1HUAR Aut yo woyduaAs w Aiqeqoud st S[0% odes o ye] aanepas hi wssaudxa 10 9 ‘under | Spoautp you ATuIeHa> HOMOHAANYAM NVTIEL cw a wong dy, Aojorueg xouua] soysea) mod yo uonesoua’ ayy Jo siosodu0> Sunis-prom jo pury ayy ynoge sBurjaoy Aue axey nox OG] AFIARICL LAVAL (6861) 29441q ned yA onesraati0s-souapuodsaii0> e :32104 ayy 105 Suysodwu0-) SANONOL HLIM SNDIVadS337 I genres. Tippett | eneounered | through one work only, King Priam, which impressed me with its lithe counterpoint and the brit- tle sparseness of the vocal writing. The curt diction and oddly oblique lines (somehow twisted at an angle to the plane of the instrumental accompanii seemed enigmatically stirring, so that the experience rer of British choral music. Whilst there is no denying the deep and enduring roots of that genre, there is something about the hoary subject-matter and generally predictably set-piece treatment of most such essays that struck me as rather sa imperturbability and cultural pseudo-auth ity all too often associated with the performance of such mammoths that I fou PD: What about the tradition German oratorio? BF: One of the most deeply affecting experiences of my teens came from listening several times to Haydn's Creation. Although a o analyze or evaluate these impressions, aspect was the amazing welter of forms I sensed swirling, abo face. The pure fecundity of realized invention and - pethaps even more affect- ing - the sense of a fecundity of, the means and m. employed made that work ter years I came to appreciate the pa’ deployed his two things - nal control and richness of generational potential - have remained Bach's vocal writing was the magnificent balance of vocal and instrumental interweaving. Optimalized utilization of register plays a big role here, of course, and the creation of two or "Royal Academy of Music, London.jo sx soupappaquis jesnyynD sty “paydope sfoyd s1anoU! 10 sartAap [euEA nb sty pure ‘paysofoud are savaid yey suo fenpe axp Jo AAuaptiadapur auf Yor 07 UO “uasaud Sus aAoU jo Joxpry Aum Azad ut 0} papny {aug jonzysuODAL o} sn 0} ‘aigussodut wy J $8 20) wore) 94 wed SUI -sSumuurdiapun jenssapoud uo asouu ypnut Apr 0} sey o SeUIRApOpPUE POU » patio} ss009 SwLio}-U SHoLeA amp 4 poads pazionood, jo swiped andy ayy wIaYy UOEDOSSIP [e0} jo wayp 5 Brequaoypg puv ‘ede uayey sey Suny ana ‘Avpoy, “parepar Aja]eUIUT Os arm amnysa$ peoIsNUt pue UoRDaLZUT yooods ryan ut poutad v sasoduros ayy Aaua | sau oda ueaioud yeup Woy JISsMU SNOFPATeUE YoU St AIDKY eoryel 5 ayp Jo BuMIVs-H10) 0} Lode axp ajodd auorZUaAUTP HADIED aX Jo InOKET au SsOUREA ‘aumoo set, Y>Iyar SuTIAOUOS St sty ~qpuM BupUTALLOD v OUT IBaxeD s,1980d 100 atp Jo spouiad pu sanun0s s Js sly jo oisMUA Auea Yn UF LOTTeZapIsuoD SupSaLayUT Ue ‘qe UOPOUT “yORUBAUT [esRHXD} pue IUy—UK jo sseur w ysuTeBe paoeyd pure paurea sade ojos At Jo ySOUE UT un apSns Jo WuOUREAN [PAdf-HIMUT axp UT YSaraqUT UAMo duu} YH payngL}UO? wou yons Aq uy autes ayy PUP auO UT san{oa arUoYdKTod StpeuOUN, Axo IM paoayjod - ySnoyfauay wwi4g geeSpeaking with Tongues 339 the key factors leading to the long-term aestheti edibility of such a work; the model of eatty ofthe vocal compositions ofthe period, where Pore models’ of rhetorical typology provide a secure underpinning to the flights of invention or momentary strayings of the text-melody encoucice Perhaps this is why, in such major efforts as Das Buch der Hangenden Garten, the dice eeecpcntal structures are more obviously ‘revolutionary’ than the dies themsel @ quite restricted sphere of behavi categories, of the text, Something. thyming verse ich flowin, is subjected his texts to ca I find fascinating is his versatility in takin; as George and transforming it unpredictability: Tha ‘negative Belief systems providing he musician of the day were vital reful pri of George and Rilke found sym- "B's and Weber's careers. At the ts men- si \g and provoking fractures of sen- imple, the, works around tensions thus thrust upon ts « key work stand above all others from the po diment of the transitory, and that is Schoenbe{MDUIDAOUL 2xp Hom zONE| 9 sotpa8ioy ‘000d 5 \pog sem sanroy 1A 1URDSOPUE aU, UO AG) joaueyfuns ayqedyedum pure a+ pas juessaout ayn Aq yu04 1yBNOWq punos jo Aygoreos Seopt sty jf uaa ‘Tendnu aest, sea -o1n ayy ypnue Aza payepardde y -azyeiouas on yoy sy “UIE SY sg gaisnur sea.-ys0d Jo quoujauoy aU Dg] PUP UDSNeYPPOIS are UM “Cd i415 punquow v asnjur oj afiowa sKessje ueD yds “esunos Jo uatuaseqop 0} uado st afienSuey Az0aq -sowped jeiysa8 ajqereadanm Ajanbrun jo ued jeyM JO eye a4p) UO jayerp asoUUIaIA, oS stead esa MeMUIAUOD wayauqu 4) -aumnur aagonpes eaq oy panoud sey ae [pur 10811 yjoq Jo soydeyou por yf oziseycusa 0} anidsuon snd ye ayqeisun ay} pur yuauanou oMoURD aaIss9sqo atf) YO AION “UUYLY, UARPIa] Je IYHZIU swage, Jo pres aq aySrur owes au. “yred sq on sapEysqo euro) SurINy AqjenuAUED £q Aysuaqut aatssaudxo ayy yStqySty 0 axddsuoo nym aajduro> ap jo saujausuuds 11K YSTYM uF Kea au “ey 4 ssaSeu sto1p Jo wor {uur 0a ysayvau YM ‘pur anton aures any SurzqyN reid ese PauOISsIUNLUOD Ud9q Sey IBHEND Ip UMO AP, ‘S200 3849 0} 001d341 ions are interesting, less for the vocal technique in hoing ‘wrap’ of percussion sonorities, which am- plifies, enriches and dissects the sol ary marker in a certa Of Stockhausen’s works employing the voice, the: undoubted sig with an as yet almost untapped reservoir Stockhausen’s subsequent production in The same is true of Berio, with the exception of the well-known lid as a pioneer example of ‘psychosemantic’ for- ‘was no doubt invaluable i » a lucid and economic break- tly practical view of what could ic music theater piece wilt when co fy much of the overt sema tures included. One hysterical scream tends to be those artificially overstated situations deemed essentia The circus clown functions, because of the ubiq.oy ,Simuvour, ‘ase Suv uy ‘sIsa8ox9 reuonTsodusod ayuy Suumnbax uous oquiosuanort éqjesqueuras v se wey Jayped ‘ABsoua aanDoueo Mp 3 SursTyUL FaMOOsKp [WISN a4} OV! No Supeyper Simpousos se “oy axp pueBox pInOYs i yey US THeUID|AUID SIM UF SI] ;puEIS OF suo dau 440M Fe|MOnTeEM Ate 1 "YpIyO 19} UOISTA aaysuayaudusod axour YoU e Jo aoueysut payoisar e ATO mibayy are soajasur SPxay ayy ‘aouiasaud soup wplsd pasnyur AELeSSo09U St juayjaudios ayerpoutut steyp Jo suis} UE AT ‘skem sau [BUY AY OE PUNO axe SPOM EYP > dd queyodurt-un moy 10 Spu0m. o Summeaur yequon ayy spalord 0} yy st yueHOdum Moy “9 10s sHerado-uoU ft snUe 0} SPM Jo LONEPH aXp S! 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Do key words should generally be present sharp focus, or perhaps that some modi- fied form of madrigalistic mirroring py tbe quite difficult in the setting of verse with largely speculative or not overtly sen- sual content. There have, by the way, been occasions on which a hear the words has had a nega experience. ly being able to the quality of the musical PD: How is verbal meaning transformed? the word on the page this is a reflection of the de-verbalization of our current culture; at any rate it is clear that the written form of a text allows one a considerably broader scope of interpretation than any given spoken presentation, where the powerful ‘support mechanisms’ of individual inflection thrust themselves into the foreground. [tal less axiomatic ti colored by whatever a lark s have been adopted fr its pres. music has been composed by aspiring to the represen- m of textual connotations in parallel musical guise; much more interesting to me would seem the project of consciously composing against the else subverting them in some fashion. The methods of music can seldom find precise correspondences in poetic processes; nevertheless the choice of means should at least reflect an attitude on the part of the composer to the givens with which he is working. It could pethaps be argued that such an approach is not being ‘fair’ to the poet: after all, the latter is seldom directly consulted concerning the suit- ability of his materials for text setting in the first place. I imagine that many an author has been bemused by the musical vocabulary woven around and through his verse in such a forced marriage. composer and ai past centuries acts as a hindrance spectives. Since poetry and music shai internal ordering, one would think iterestingly innovative approaches toare suwaur seynoned ON -woRDe;sHeS 405 HuNNED saH0 uo spuodap ITs esaiqeyiés 40 spiom Suisn jnoYPIM 2oF0a ayy J0F SPHOPEFSHLS aHLLA uO WED ‘Cf pod v yey) out aqkew ‘5p Bumpass our AM awTODg WED soPUTTTE sMODKt re uoRDa|Ja1 JO pottod Me paras 9 YEA rut Aw ur saoUOLad m4 AxeyuoULIOD Joy) muted pure aovaxayo> Jouut Sniut10j gens axe spuodsar KjPANre aU ON sAeUa}goud Afouwarp good oxy odsar yey gsixa) sn04 pajas nok Op MOH “Cd ‘oy aney nox op Aan srasoduros ayy aq 0} spaou pasnaoy aq plnoys wreaq [PRED ayy WOH. UO uuosiad ys1y) a, ‘seotiapuodsaxioo jo SupppoyayUT (snaraSutep pur) ayexaqytap 69 ‘pauurdsopun stu yearn ssoqun poyyeosun adeoso Aqionbaus Ea 1X0) a4 UO -enbo ay jo 3no yay are Knuye jenUEySANs Josaa| Jadaap Uayar ‘FaAaMOY ‘ADU 3 UL DAaOSTEYA OUIAREYS Aue MOM ED 04g Jo Sess Kieu are axaUp ‘9SIN0> J) ssuondo aay -vuraye Jo Sunysrem joununwoo £q poaaryse aq pynoo feo uounwos pase ue Sum, paroaqop ~ ySnoyfiowia uoig teexplosive stimulus of linguistic research upon the artist's understanding of verbal communication. Since the ‘example of the French Symbolists, many poets have expressed a desire for a form of poetry nearer to music than to prose; the Twentieth Century has offered Some quite powerful tools and insights which allow pes proach an In the wake of the much-trumpeted “exhaustion of material” (or the ex- haustion, perhaps, of those concentrating too exclusively on such things) it seems that activity in this comer of the field has ebbed somewhat ‘evidence that harmonic structures based on the approximation of the natural overtone series have any convincing implications in formal matters. Of itself, the fact that such systems claim relevance through a supposed closeness to nature is often misunderstood as a form of legitimization in aesthetic terms, ‘Whereas I cannot but help see this correspondence as a fatal flaw, fe capacity to expand and develop meaningful infinity. Asa contributory f however, the increased although one would think that live vo its very nature. I nuanceis already very complex by PD: Are you attracted to opera? Would you like to write a music‘e}IP 0} WHOS WYSI WOPSIM [eUOHLAALOD Jo. eydepe Suqueaur[jam 40 sastuoudwos jenyxajuoo Supxeur nor euonisoduro> jenprarput siaup Jo yurodpueys ayy wroyy wungpout ayy ypeaidde ym siosodwos 4o doysyom ayy wiaxy aBrow9 07 Aj Inyssooons w yeu)‘ WY - APIS AAUHO ayy LOH, HOR'ENS a ys pun UF stKp Jeaq plnoys auo sdeyog TDUTUE aneIado ay YBNoNA pay Woym ajqissod se uOMOTSIp & [Tews se 0} polgns sem aSenSuey jeorsmur Sso\jM aso1f1 Ua9q Avy SiasoduuoD ewrado [RYssAD9NS YSOUE a4 AfaINS jutod yoour e st asnoy eiado yeuontian ur pasnoy Ajaienbape aq pono ydaouos & yons say -uiop & 30 59 “Ayrousp aun sinodsip & YpEAL INO Ayoreos st yBnouy ceynuats 2x) 9q p[hoa WoRN|OS ALO YEAR SOU: “Aynoygtp yW008 up -ona feuayeut jo ayer pides zauper e yim pap puodaL 9q Afamns pynoo ex iy -Sunuaaa ue 104 A1ess909u uoRIsodstp pesodwiay Jo 10S a4p -asH UT Lua|gaud vag pinom ‘poy ur ‘au, exp Jo eo1d4y samen moy-IuAN pure UoRNJOsoL “HORS aX {wor Aymuuoo feauyearp e SupesoUa ye une pue ‘aBenSuey [eorsMue|NoRTed jo ASimjeurexp, ayy Jo amyeu ayeuut ayy JopIsuoD 0} qNyasN aIoUK aq. pInos y scleysad ‘uoRDe yeusa3xo aos 0} papuadde Burag s1snur wey sOKREY ouNe Yoo Xd} & YIM LOHEIOgeTIOD asop UT BUPLIOM, Aqqeiayard “pens wroyy 42eIS 0} aq Plnom uoNdo ajquis Ajuo a =. a9 ayy 0} 2Uue9 sne-opnasd uappurjod Ajapmn v pure andr (éiqeypeaidaun ‘uy WodsjOq SuISOOYD Jo AyySsAdaU_ a}qetauDUN, anp Aq paSemoostp Aqpidex aures9q yng ‘away an eUIDE Ue 10} yaAeos SsapTUy papuiadxa J woses00 yey} UO “ysnom smut AW year PoowsIOpUNSHU Pey poxts>> q 109 JOPANIP ap WAP ate o} pasos “gas zwmoquied v yyia paypeaidde sem j ‘mou o8e afyaa e ayinb ‘ou ‘saouianbastio snoxises anus ‘9yes eyd 0} Ajjensn st won dua} om, up Jo UreWO axp UT Yon Os aq] 0} wiaAs3,uop Aaya INQ ‘AqRyANeD prs ‘sonaid jerype ut auop s8unp jo sueu war poze ‘ueyp auou apy are suogUaAUOD yoy 2s ual WOR suaauo anerado i SunpAue 0} popeme Aion You WL] et ofp nok Cop ‘sazaqut jo axe suopuaatia> oneredo YIM, gPUPY WHOS Jo 520m [eoUTEaL Siu paayoy - ySnoyfowas urg ore37 Notes on some recent compositionsAq, pogseydua 8ureq Ay ny am aun autes ayy TV s8010-S819 xajdu09 v UH S19 yo sped a8rey 151MSpeaking with Tongues 349 es opposing legato sung polyphony in the sopranos :xample 2). of perspective might be interpreted, perhaps, as a move * structure of individual words towards a more global, As the work progresses the tendency towards sepai SATB groups becomes ever more important, so much so th (Example 4), the groups become mutu: at a tempo pai group, which thrusts aggressive chunks of text of ‘melismatic background provided by the other ensembles. 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